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31
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Olemisscub on July 08, 2023, 01:08:57 PM »
filed a FOIA the other day for a high resolution scan of this photo. Would be nice to know what we're talking about as regards this "protruding lower lip" business.

32
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on July 08, 2023, 12:50:41 AM »
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Everything you just wrote has nothing to do with what I have said.

You don't even understand what I'm talking about, yet you want to argue with me.

Nothing can be gained from this discussion, so I am going to let it drop.

Chaucer, everything I posted above relates to the winds aloft on the evening of the hijacking.  The sources I cited are the only factual information that is available for those winds.

If you are claiming that you have other "sources" for those winds then you are mistaken because there are no other sources.   There were no Voodoo winds that evening.
33
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Kermit on July 07, 2023, 06:14:08 PM »
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I lived here in Portland area in 1971 and for most of my life.
I totally disagree with the wind direction you are alleging. That’s just not the wind direction I have ever witnessed in almost all of my years and definitely not the direction on Nov 24, 1971.
Based on your experience, what is the typical wind direction? And what was the wind direction that night?

Thanks for asking ! First off oftentimes meteorologists on Portland T V stations have mentioned the various reasons weather is quite difficult to forecast accurately. We have coastal Winds, The Columbia River gorge winds, and Portland actually has 4 hills within its immediate area. I lived in Mt. Scott area, Mt. Tabor a semi dormant Volcano, Rocky Butte which overlooks PDX, and Council Crest where I delivered Mail for many year.Portland weather is also affected by the Cascades and Costal Range.  Starting at PDX Heading East a few miles we enter Gresham and go a few more miles and you’re in Troutdale which is the entrance to the scenic Columbia River Gorge. Wow ! Now depending upon the time of year, The Gorge can produce an entirely different weather. Hood River and John Day are regarded as the wind Surfing Capital of the world by some !
My point being that weather just North of Portland isn’t always a true measure of what’s going on in Vancouver, Battleground, Ariel etc.
On the night of Nov 24, 1971, I would say the wind was from the SSW or blowing North Easterly in Portland area.
Also this is the most common direction of the wind direction in this area and Im including where I presently reside which is just East of Vader and 7 miles SW of Toledo. The wind direction is easily detected here because of the many wildfires to my North and East. So far not any smoke reaching my area. You might also note that when Mt. St. Helens erupted in 1960, the heaviest ash deposits were in Spokane area and went as far As Kalispell, Montana.I lived in Happy Valley area at that time. From my point of view, winds coming from the East is uncommon in Cooper country ! JMHO I’d also like to add that V 23 seems to be where I see most commercial Airline flights every Day from my view as I can see Mt St. Helens clearly from my living room. Hope this helps clarifying my thoughts.

34
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Chaucer on July 07, 2023, 05:11:01 PM »
Everything you just wrote has nothing to do with what I have said.

You don't even understand what I'm talking about, yet you want to argue with me.

Nothing can be gained from this discussion, so I am going to let it drop.

35
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on July 07, 2023, 04:24:56 PM »
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Robert,
The link that I provided is an Aviation Weather Report supplied by Weather Bureau to the FBI. The reporting stations are airports. There is even a section entited "PIREPS" which, as you know, stands for Pilot Reports".
did you even bother to look at it or had you made up your mind already?

Further, the data of the winds aloft provided by Tom Kaye is from the ground to 12,000 feet AMSL.

Lastly, what you are saying is irrelevant in the end because we do not have reliable wind data for any reasonable DZ during any reasonable jump time. There are winds for Portland. Winds for Toledo. Winds for Seattle. Winds for Salem.

But there is no wind data for Ariel, Battle Ground, Orchards, Hockinson, Brush Prairie, or Vancouver during the time period of 8:10 to say 8:20. It's all extrapolation and estimation.

My point is that, if we can gain anything from this weather/wind data, it is that our understanding of the winds is incomplete and far more variable than simply "blowing directly northeast". All that said, I am working on a tip from a source about information that may indicate definitely what the wind was like that night in those areas I indicated above. Once I verify its accuracy, I will post what I find.

Chaucer, I presume the "Aviation Weather Reports" that you mention are the routine Hourly Sequence Reports from various ground stations.  These hourly sequence reports include the measured ground data such as winds at that station, the atmospheric pressure, the estimated height of cloud layers and their coverage, the estimated visibility, and any comments that are applicable about recent or predicted future weather events for that station.  The sequence reports do not include winds aloft.

Twice a day, the FAA issues predicted winds aloft based on data produced by the National Weather Service.  These predictions are used by pilots in their flight planning.  The winds aloft are based, at least in part, on the balloon data provided by the NOAA, and that in turn is generated from actual measured balloon data.

Pilot reports can include such things as cloud heights, and depending on the aircraft's equipment, may be able to provide winds aloft speeds and directions.  In 1971, this would usually require the pilot to do some calculations.

The information that the FAA provided to the FBI for predicted jump zones was, at best, just estimates.  And of course, no one knows exactly where Cooper jumped.

The NOAA measured data for the date of the hijacking was determined independently by Eric Ulis and myself.  We applied that data to refine the Western Flight Path.  It appears that only the people who have never seen this data are the ones who claim that it is invalid.

Chaucer, let me say again that you and anyone else that you are talking to would greatly benefit from reading the FAA publication "Aviation Weather".  Otherwise, you are just going with "Old Wives Tales".
36
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Chaucer on July 07, 2023, 01:50:02 PM »
Robert,
The link that I provided is an Aviation Weather Report supplied by Weather Bureau to the FBI. The reporting stations are airports. There is even a section entited "PIREPS" which, as you know, stands for Pilot Reports".
did you even bother to look at it or had you made up your mind already?

Further, the data of the winds aloft provided by Tom Kaye is from the ground to 12,000 feet AMSL.

Lastly, what you are saying is irrelevant in the end because we do not have reliable wind data for any reasonable DZ during any reasonable jump time. There are winds for Portland. Winds for Toledo. Winds for Seattle. Winds for Salem.

But there is no wind data for Ariel, Battle Ground, Orchards, Hockinson, Brush Prairie, or Vancouver during the time period of 8:10 to say 8:20. It's all extrapolation and estimation.

My point is that, if we can gain anything from this weather/wind data, it is that our understanding of the winds is incomplete and far more variable than simply "blowing directly northeast". All that said, I am working on a tip from a source about information that may indicate definitely what the wind was like that night in those areas I indicated above. Once I verify its accuracy, I will post what I find.
37
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on July 07, 2023, 12:43:39 PM »
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Tom posted the NOAA data on here. Go look at page 117 of the Flight Path thread. He posted images there. It clearly shows a consistent southerly wind. It does not support your claim that the wind was blowing directly from the southeast to the northeast.

It’s also important to note that this data was collected in Salem, OR and Quillayute Airport in Forks, WA which is a distance of over 200 miles. The DZ would fall somewhere in this large swath of space. The wind speed and direction would be mere extrapolations and not exact representations of the winds aloft near the DZ.

Moreover, in the recent FBI Vault release, there was a segment on weather data provided to the FBI by the US Weather Bureau. This weather data included multiple reporting stations along the West Coast. The data provided was from 7pm, 8pm, and 9pm on the date of the hijacking. The closest reporting stations to any reasonable DZ would be Portland International, Troutdale Airport, and Toledo, WA.

Here is that wind data:

 Time.                         
7pm
Toledo.                160 degrees at 4 knots
PDX.                    130 degrees at 4 knots
Troutdale.            170 degrees at 3 knots

8pm
Toledo.                190 degrees at 5 knots
PDX.                   270 degrees at 10 knots
Troutdale.            220 degrees at 7 knots

9pm
Toledo.                190 degrees at 6 knots
PDX.                   190 degrees at 11 knots
Troutdale.            220 degrees at 1 knot

The outlier of course is PDX at 8pm. According to the data supplied by the US Weather Bureau, the wind shits from out of the SOUTHEAST at 130 degrees to out of the WEST at 270 degrees in one hour and then shifts again from out of the WEST at 270 degrees to out of the SOUTH-SOUTHWEST an hour after that.

Now, that is certainly possible for a dramatic shift in wind over an hour period, but it is unusual. Could it be that the 270 is actually a typographical error and the wind was blowing out of the SOUTH-SOUTHEAST at 170 degrees?

Either way, it would appear that the wind direction was shifting throughout the night, and that any wind speed or direction at the DZ - say between Ariel and the Columbia is merely an estimate based on weather reports from stations miles away.

Even the historical data from Weather Underground states that the wind from from the SE at 8pm at PDX.

I have more information obviously, but I want to make sure I have facts before I make any claims.

Chaucer, the wind information you list is for the ground winds.  The airliner was at 10,000 feet above sea level.  The winds aloft information that Tom Kaye has uncovered is for the winds at altitudes that are completely out of the atmospheric ground effect.

Chaucer, go to FAA.gov and download the free FAA publication "Aviation Weather".  Then give it a thorough study.  The weather information you have listed above is simply not a factor in the hijacking. 
38
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Chaucer on July 06, 2023, 11:18:28 PM »
Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.

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39
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Chaucer on July 06, 2023, 11:03:37 PM »
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I lived here in Portland area in 1971 and for most of my life.
I totally disagree with the wind direction you are alleging. That’s just not the wind direction I have ever witnessed in almost all of my years and definitely not the direction on Nov 24, 1971.
Based on your experience, what is the typical wind direction? And what was the wind direction that night?
40
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Kermit on July 06, 2023, 09:39:14 PM »
I lived here in Portland area in 1971 and for most of my life.
I totally disagree with the wind direction you are alleging. That’s just not the wind direction I have ever witnessed in almost all of my years and definitely not the direction on Nov 24, 1971.
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