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DB Cooper / Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Last post by haggarknew on September 17, 2023, 11:30:25 AM » Thanks for posting! Very interesting, especially the part about "John".
I agree that the case is unsolvable. I do not think there is enough physical evidence to tie to a single suspect. The tie particles MAY limit the pool of people Cooper could be, but I simply do not think (in the absence of DNA) that we will ever get an answer beyond a reasonable doubt.I also hope that there are still people here to discuss the case. I prefer this site as well. I enjoy the discussions at the Dropzone forum. I haven't been on the FB site. ( not sure I would be welcome 😂 lol )Why wouldn't you be welcome? We have over 3500 members there. All opinions and backgrounds welcome, including yours.
That said, I also wish this forum had more activity. Not sure why it has fallen off...
I confess this is my first visit in quite some time, I think some people, myself included, find that this case is very close to being, unsolvable. The final act that sealed it was the loss of the cigarette butts. DNA is a very powerful tool in crime and forensics. There can only be a few possible smoking guns to come about here. And they are highly unlikely. I see a new Zodiac video on YouTube. That one likely is more solvable? I saw your plane post. Nice. The 727.
That said, I have busied myself with other aspects of the case. I have done a deep dive into the evolution of the dropzone along with the communications that night. I've also spent a lot of time speaking to experts in regards to Tena Bar in an effort to bust some of the commonly believed myths.
At this point, the Cooper case it more of a thought exercise rather than an effort to identify a particular suspect.
As far as not as many people posting here as in the past, I think the FB group has sucked a lot of the oxygen out of the room. Unlike the DZ, there isn't anywhere near the level of toxicity and unlike here, anyone is welcome to join and contribute. I think the Vortex is evolving and expanding and I'm not sure some of the older generation of Cooper researchers can adapt. It's friendlier, less contentious, less competitive, and more collaborative than a decade ago.
This isn't my site, obviously. It's Shutter's. But I would like to see this forum evolve into a place where it's an "experts only" forum. Where the most experienced, knowledgeable, and respected Cooper researchers can come and discuss the case and collaborate. Just my two cents.
All,This is Tom's original post about the radiosonde data.
I was having dinner with my science friend Bruce the other night and he asked about Cooper. I told him there was a big discussion about the flight path and the placard drift rate. Bruce is retired from JPL, created the first clear air turbulence instrument and was on the team that discovered the ozone hole. He described the boundary layer over land (as opposed to water) as going from 0-3000 feet or so and it is in this layer that the winds typically are in a different direction from winds aloft. He said the way to answer the question is get the radiosonde data from those dates in that area and it would show the winds from ground to 12K+ feet or so. It turns out that the data is tricky to get and condense into readable form so I had to bribe him with a steak dinner and now we have the data!
The two closest locations were Salem just south of Portland and Quillayute Bruce said was just west of Seattle. They launch twice a day at 5pm and 5am so that is the data we have. I had him pull a second random day Nov 11 for comparison and you can see that the winds then were actually east near the ground. Nov 24 looks pretty consistent all the way down but seems to be more southerly than we had estimated. Now you can do a proper analysis.![]()
Tom Kaye
I feel like I'm being gaslighted.Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.Here is the post along with the link. At no point did I claim that they were winds aloft, yet you fail to recognize that Tom's winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet.
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Chaucer, Tom Kaye's "winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet" is exactly what I have been telling you. The NOAA balloon data was the sole source of measured data used in predicting the winds aloft that the FAA issued for pilot planning purposes. Except for the measured NOAA balloon data and what was measured at ground level and reported in the hourly sequences reports, everything else was a prediction.
The winds aloft were measured by the balloons from ground level up and we do not need to go above 10,000 feet above sea level here since that is as high as the airliner went in the WA and OR areas.
This is what I have been telling YOU. Why are you trying to argue with me about it?
My point is that that NOAA data from Tom shows that the ground winds and winds aloft were fairly consistent with one another. Therefore, one could conclude that if we know the ground winds, the winds aloft would not be much different. The caveat is that the NOAA data provided by Tom comes from reporting areas dozens about miles away from any reasonable jump spot. So, the data is of the winds aloft is merely estimates and extrapolations.
I feel like I'm being gaslighted.Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.Here is the post along with the link. At no point did I claim that they were winds aloft, yet you fail to recognize that Tom's winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Chaucer, Tom Kaye's "winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet" is exactly what I have been telling you. The NOAA balloon data was the sole source of measured data used in predicting the winds aloft that the FAA issued for pilot planning purposes. Except for the measured NOAA balloon data and what was measured at ground level and reported in the hourly sequences reports, everything else was a prediction.
The winds aloft were measured by the balloons from ground level up and we do not need to go above 10,000 feet above sea level here since that is as high as the airliner went in the WA and OR areas.
Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.Here is the post along with the link. At no point did I claim that they were winds aloft, yet you fail to recognize that Tom's winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login