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51
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by dudeman17 on October 14, 2021, 09:06:46 PM »
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witness dudeman's story about a round reserve being packed for the 16-year old that jumped with him off the Die Hard building. Not even a rig with a forward glide ratio? and the kid jumps without saying nuthin'!


Actually the chute he used did have some forward drive and steerability. On round mains, the 'drive slots' are a series of squarish holes cut out of the bottom back of the canopy, and a couple of them are longer, reaching higher up the canopy. This allows air to escape out the back, giving the drive and steerability. But they invite the 'partial inversion' malfunction, where part of the canopy skirt blows through them and tries to inflate inside out. Reserves would have a couple of the holes but not the longer slots, reducing but not eliminating that possibility. The four line release pretty much eliminated that malfunction. Then at some point, in a true face-palm 'duh!' moment, someone had the brilliant idea of covering those holes with mesh, allowing air through but not material. That's what the kid was jumping.

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Cooper choosing a better chute - If he had the option of a steerable chute, that would help him get into a better landing area and avoid obstacles such as trees or a rocky hillside.

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The 'Pursuit' movie stunt - Obviously Carl Boenish is gone. Kevin Donnelly passed away some years ago from cancer. Same with Dean Westgaard many years ago. Ray Cottingham is still around. NickyB contacted him a while back on Facebook, but he didn't have a lot to say. Not familiar with the other two. I don't know this to be fact, but knowing a bit about how such things are done, if they had three cameramen and three other jumpers, they likely had three Cooper's. (At least two.) Two loads times three pairs would give them six jumps to choose edits from. The landing shot is likely a separate thing.
52
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by JAG on October 14, 2021, 08:42:16 PM »
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Confirmation from UPI archives that Tosaw was involved in the 1986 Ingram negotiations for divying up the money found.

I had thought Tosaw was involved then...but he's not mentioned in most articles. But I wonder if Tosaw got any bills? Did he mention that at any time after?

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Quote
Release of the money was negotiated by Richard Tosaw, a lawyer and former FBI agent who wrote a book, 'D.B. Cooper: Dead or Alive.'

Well with that UPI story, you killed 3 birds with one stone so to speak:
- Tosaw was the lawyer working for the Ingrams for the money settlement and indeed the RTT:bh reference you found yesterday.
- They state ~$6,000, but more specifically 280 bills and I am guessing we add the 14 that the FBI took for 294 x $20 = $5,880
- Tosaw states he was promised a few of the bills
53
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by JAG on October 14, 2021, 08:11:41 PM »
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If the bailout rig didn't have D-Rings, is there even a way or certified method/technique that exists in the "jumping industry" for attaching a reserve to a bailout rig such that one would expect it to work ?  If yes, then Cooper knew how to do this ?

That's an interesting thought. If he tied it to the harness, it may or may not hold, depending on how well he did it. If he used the thin parachute line to tie it to himself and then deployed it, that would hurt like hell, and possibly be seriously or even fatally injurious.

But no, there's no set 'method' for doing that because it is not a usual practice or necessary.

Thanks Dudeman, I was going to follow up with the question of whether or not you have ever heard of it being done ?  (i.e. tying a reserve to a bailout rig ) But it doesn't really make sense right, why would you do that under any normal situation.
54
DB Cooper / Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Last post by dudeman17 on October 14, 2021, 07:43:39 PM »
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Dudeman wrote: “ Also, apparently you're not going to confirm whether that was Taft you jumped at?  :P

Sorry I missed the question. I jumped at Taft in the mid 1970s. I earned my SCR at Elsinore. Those are the only two Southern California DZs I have jumped at. NorCal DZs include Livermore, Antioch, Tracy, Santa Rosa, Pope Valley, Monterey and Byron.

Jumping this coming Saturday at Byron. I turn 72 soon. So grateful to still be able to skydive.

377


The original question was about the pics you posted fairly recently of your recurrency jumps. That kind of looked like Taft.
55
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by dudeman17 on October 14, 2021, 07:20:14 PM »
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If the bailout rig didn't have D-Rings, is there even a way or certified method/technique that exists in the "jumping industry" for attaching a reserve to a bailout rig such that one would expect it to work ?  If yes, then Cooper knew how to do this ?

That's an interesting thought. If he tied it to the harness, it may or may not hold, depending on how well he did it. If he used the thin parachute line to tie it to himself and then deployed it, that would hurt like hell, and possibly be seriously or even fatally injurious.

But no, there's no set 'method' for doing that because it is not a usual practice or necessary.
56
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by dudeman17 on October 14, 2021, 07:11:15 PM »
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Me, if I was kind of worried about the jump, I might toss it out as a poor man's wind indicator, just to see how fast it whooshed out behind the jet..to get me ready for the blast.

I've actually considered that as well. He specified flaps, wheels down, and a slow airspeed. He might well have wanted to check out the 'prop blast'.

Also, if he was familiar with the Thailand jumps and how the deployment bags got blown upwards, and he was considering pulling off the stairs...
57
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by dudeman17 on October 14, 2021, 06:58:58 PM »
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I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute...


If Cossey is to be believed, that may be. But Cossey's credibility is strained due to conflicting statements. If it is true, then the sport main would have the D-rings for the reserve. The bailout rig would not. But I was under the impression that the best evidence was that the two back rigs they gave him were the two bailout rigs belonging to Hayden.

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As R99 says, an experienced jumper wears a reserve because parachutes occasionally malfunction. Being prepared for that is part of what makes jumping 'easier'.

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As for having a bunch of crap tied to himself making it hard to get the ripcord handle - That is absolutely a valid concern. If he's smart, once he gets everything set up, he checks for that possibility. If something was able to move and give him that problem, he should tie it down more securely. That might also contribute to a decision to pull off the stairs.
58
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by snowmman on October 14, 2021, 03:51:53 PM »
Confirmation from UPI archives that Tosaw was involved in the 1986 Ingram negotiations for divying up the money found.

I had thought Tosaw was involved then...but he's not mentioned in most articles. But I wonder if Tosaw got any bills? Did he mention that at any time after?

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Quote
Release of the money was negotiated by Richard Tosaw, a lawyer and former FBI agent who wrote a book, 'D.B. Cooper: Dead or Alive.'
59
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by snowmman on October 14, 2021, 03:43:24 PM »
interesting inteview of Tosaw from 2009 by Steven Rinehart (Feb 2006)

This the last known interview with Richard Tosaw before he died in 2009

60
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by georger on October 14, 2021, 02:28:51 PM »
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Another good newspaper article from fbi file  43 page 257

FBI Baker is quoted.

The Oregonian, by Leverett Richards, apparently 2/13/80

"Baker said the money the Ingrams' found had not been counted. At first, the amount recovered was estimated at about $4,000 but 'we have revised our estimate to several thousand dollars'"

Also: the "random packaging" that Carr retold:

"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. 'to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry.' Because of that, the actual amount could not be estimated he said."


this seems bizarre to me...since we have no report detailing any "repackaging" although Carr seemed to say that also.

Seems clear to me that all the estimates that are being used today, for amount of money found, are wrong?

Hey snow, I came across another newspaper article talking about the money settlement where the math doesn't appear to add up to $5800.
FBI Part 48, page 44.  In a nutshell, it talks about the Ingram's agreeing to a 50/50 split with the insurance company after the FBI takes their cut, which according to the article is 14 bills.  It states that the Ingrams were awarded $1800 or 90 bills ($1800/20=90).  Since this is supposed to be a 50% cut, the insurance company would have gotten the other 90 bills ?  So 90 + 90 +14 = 194 bills?  194 x $20 =  $3,880

Anyway, I figured I would pass this along.  It's very strange...been hearing $5800 forever.  Who actually forensically separated the bricks of money ?  Was it done by the FBI shortly after recovering the money from the Ingrams ?  Did they separate all of the money ? Is it possible it was done during the court case between the Ingrams/Insurance Company/FBI years later ?

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The new info (for me) in that article, JAG, is that the Ingrams seem to say that "the lawyer" got a number of bills (a share?)

I had not counted on "the lawyer" getting some of the divied-up bills?

I guess it makes sense, because the Ingrams probably didn't have money to pay a lawyer.

Was this Tosaw? there's a redacted page in the fbi files from a lawyer asking for the Ingram money.
The name of the lawyer is redacted, but remember how typists used to include the initials for who signed the letter and I believe who typed it?
those initials are visible, and I think were RTT    (Robert T. Tosaw ?). I'll have to find that page again.

Was Tosaw the lawyer for the Ingrams? Did he get any bills?

You know snow, I have to be honest, I read right over that part of the sentence where it mentioned the lawyer, missed it even though I highlighted it !  Nice catch...that alone nullifies my math as it didn't account for whatever cut the lawyer may have gotten. 

As I continued going through FBI part 48, I came across more news articles that referenced $5800 and even $6000 amounts so I don't know quite what to think.  (I think Georger's post also had a higher amount cited.)  Maybe that line about the laywer explains who has some of the TB money ?  Here's one that said $6000 on page 52:


Yes, I don't know what to think either.
1) Why isn't there an official report that says how they estimated the money?
2) Did the FBI labs ever touch the money?
3) When was the first time bills were separated more than the 12 groups shown in 1980 to the press?
4) Who was the lawyer in 1986?
5) Was the 1986 agreement filed with the court? Is it public accessible anywhere like a court doc?
6) Was Robert Tosaw the lawyer (RTT) trying to get the money for Ingram in 1982? It sure seems like it (see my prior post and 4 pages from the FBI files).
If Tosaw was lawyer in 1982 was he lawyer i 1986?
7) Did Tosaw get any bills if so? Where are they if he got any? How many did he get?
8) If indeed the "right" number became $5800, when did that occur? Initially lower numbers were specified. Who bumped it up to $5800 and why/when? Did the FBI just start quoting what they read in newpaper articles in later years?

Just went back and read your previous post regarding the 4 pages with "RTT:bh".  It certainly appears to be Tosaw, not sure if I am stretching here, but I was curious what the "bh" stood for?  I looked up Tosaw's obituary:

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and found that it states he founded "The Bureau of Missing Heirs, Inc., specializing in escheat law"  so does BH = "The Bureau of Missing Heirs".  In other words rtt:bh = Richard T. Tosaw of or from The Bureau of Missing Heirs ? ? ?

From Wikipedia:
"Escheat /ɪsˈtʃiːt/[1][2] is a common law doctrine that transfers the real property of a person who has died without heirs to the Crown or state. It serves to ensure that property is not left in "limbo" without recognized ownership."

Certainly sounds like it could apply to the TB Money....wrt unrecognized ownership ?

,,,
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