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91
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by DBfan57 on August 22, 2022, 11:42:58 AM »
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R99, does that 14 minute period correspond to the time frame you mention the WSHM says is redacted or missing ?  Or am I mucking this all up..?

JAG, I'm afraid I don't find the Ulis/Ammerman explanation very convincing.  You are not mucking anything up.

When I joined DropZone in 2009, before I made my first post, I obtained copies of the IFR Enroute Low Altitude Charts L1/L2, which were in effect on the day of the hijacking, from the National Archives and Records Administration (which is the same organization that is currently in the media).  They were in digital format on disks and I had a photographic company print out a hard copy for my personal use.  The total cost was about $400 not counting the cost of antiacids that I needed in dealing with a certain NARA sub-contractor.  Anyway, I sent Sluggo a copy of the disks and he printed out copies that are on his website (wherever that site is today).  Eventually, I sent all of the original disks to Fred Poyner at the WSHM and they are available on that site today.

Here is a general picture of how airspace was divided in 1971.  From sea level (or ground level) to 18,000 feet, IFR traffic used the Low Altitude Charts for navigation and the airways were named Victor Airways.  Everything from 18,000 to 60,000 feet used the High Altitude Charts and were named Jet Airways.  Above 60,000 feet, everything was VFR (not IFR) and point-to-point.

Cooper specified that the airliner was not to fly above 10,000 feet above sea level.  This is also the minimum altitude for obstacle clearance and radio navigation/communications reception on the flight south from SEATAC.  These altitudes were established for air traffic control purposes on V-23.

At times during this segment, radio contact with ARINC was lost and communications were relayed by two other airliners to an ARINC facility.  When in the California area, Oakland Air Traffic Control told the airliner to switch to the Sacramento ARINC frequency and they did so.  But this did not have anything to do with air traffic control.

In the Seattle Air Traffic Control radio transcripts, a total of 19 areas of redactions are indicated.  There were no redactions indicated in the Oakland Air Traffic Control radio transcripts.

The roll of ARINC teletype transcripts included with the Harrison papers was made avail to Fred Poyner at the WSHM.  He made a study of what was on that roll, which had been sliced up considerably, and the public released teletype transcripts.

Poyner concluded that there were 8 areas in the ARINC transcripts of "missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, with each area made up of one or more individual 'blocks' or entries of text."  He listed a total of 30 "entries of text" that were missing for the period from 4:45 PM to 8:05 PM PST, inclusive.

Poyner also concluded that there was nothing missing between time stamps for 8:10 PM to 8:24 PM PST when compared to the public released transcripts for this time period.

For anyone wishing to pursue this further, the Seattle and Oakland Air Traffic Control transcripts and some of the ARINC teletype transcripts are posted here on Shutter's site.  Fred Poyner's analysis, or at least part of it, may be available on the WSHM web page.       
Im guessing Cooper has cost you more than $400?  He has cost many people plenty of money.   And some, more than what he stole.  I always wondered after watching the Prison Break act on the Cooper heist, does anyone think its possible he actually did get more?  That the FBI and the Northwest Airlines could have liked about the dollar amount?  Or are there just too many cooks in the kitchen for that to have happened?

You are correct.  That $400 was just the start and a lot more has followed including more than 10,000+ miles of driving and several months on the road.

My personal opinion of Cooper is that he was extremely lucky one afternoon and evening until he step off the aft stairs and came face to face with Mother Nature who is a severe task maker.  And a minute or two later he was on the ground and deceased.

There is zero evidence to back up your claim that he died in the jump and I believe NO WAY.    He survived the jump.  Its after that we do not have any idea.  Well some ideas, but none that are fool proof.
Hey Chaucer, you are the Zodiac researcher here right?  I see several YouTube feeds claiming they know who the Zodiac was and that its solved and al of that. But there is so much crap out there.  Do you know if its actually proven as to his identity?  I certainly do not believe that Jack The Ripper was the guy that they recently named on a couple of channels.  I do believe that it was Charles Lechmere.

Conversely, there is zero evidence to back up your claim that Cooper survived the jump or that he was Charles Lechmere.
NO NO NO!!  I did not say Cooper was Charles Lechmere.  I said I believe Jack the Ripper could have been Charles Allen Cross Lechmere
92
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by Chaucer on August 21, 2022, 03:38:31 PM »
I have to offer a correction, in my earlier post about Ammerman's suggestion that an error was made in the frequency, I said that it appears to be a new story and Ammerman had never mentioned it before.

I was wrong. It was discussed on here in the summer of 2019. It was a new idea then, not now.

93
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Chaucer on August 21, 2022, 03:36:39 PM »
Even when the sun sets, there is still some light remaining. It doesn't instantly get dark. Check the time for sunset in your area and see how long afterward it gets fully dark.

That said, R99 is correct that the clouds and rain would certainly block the light to a degree and make visibility more difficult.
94
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by JAG on August 21, 2022, 08:27:12 AM »
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Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:

What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?

The money and parachutes would have arrived at precisely 5:00. Fueling would have proceeded without delay.

The plane would have taken off at approximately 5:30. Airstairs down on takeoff? Or lowered in flight? If airstairs down at takeoff, then Cooper likely would have jumped 15 minutes after takeoff at 5:45. If the airstairs were to be lowered in flight, he expected it to be easy to do. His inability to lower airstairs properly delayed him about 10 minutes. So, if the airstairs were to be lowered after takeoff, then he would have jumped closer to 6:00pm

Sunset on that date was at 4:33pm. Even at 6:00 pm there would be enough light to see, but once he hit the ground, it would darken. That was likely his plan. To be off the plane while still light enough to see, but with night quickly approaching so he could disappear in the darkness.

If he jumped at 5:45, he would have jumped in the vicinity of Spanaway on the outskirts of Seattle an  and the dropzone would have been near South Hill also in the Seattle suburbs.

 If he jumped closer to 6:00 pm, he would have jumped about 5 or 6 miles north of Etna, WA and the dropzone would be about 5 miles north or Ariel. That area is pretty rugged and remote.

This obviously uses very broad approximations and a lot of speculation, but I think it’s a thought-provoking exercise. Therefore, you can’t draw any decent conclusions from it, but it would seem that it would have been better for Cooper to have the stairs down on takeoff as it would have resulted in a landing closer to civilization.

Fact check me, my times might be wrong.

Here is an additional assumption.  Assume that the airliner could climb to 10,000 feet as fast as it normally would and it would be at that altitude in 5 to 10 minutes after takeoff.

Another fact to consider.  With sunset at 4:33 PM or so, with low cloud layers plus an overcast at about 5000 feet, and if it was raining on the airliner in the Seattle area at that time there would be more clouds above the airliner, then it would be essentially pitch black where the airliner was flying.  The only illumination exterior to the airliner would be from the glow of the Seattle area lights through the clouds and overcast below the airliner.  And as the airliner moved out of the Seattle area and over the mountains and forests, there would not be any illumination below the airliner.

Even if Cooper jumped at 5:30 PM, everything below him would be dark.

It does not appear that jumping with any natural light was ever part of Cooper's plan.  That says something, which of course is open to all of our objective and subjective speculations.
95
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on August 21, 2022, 12:46:24 AM »
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Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:

What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?

The money and parachutes would have arrived at precisely 5:00. Fueling would have proceeded without delay.

The plane would have taken off at approximately 5:30. Airstairs down on takeoff? Or lowered in flight? If airstairs down at takeoff, then Cooper likely would have jumped 15 minutes after takeoff at 5:45. If the airstairs were to be lowered in flight, he expected it to be easy to do. His inability to lower airstairs properly delayed him about 10 minutes. So, if the airstairs were to be lowered after takeoff, then he would have jumped closer to 6:00pm

Sunset on that date was at 4:33pm. Even at 6:00 pm there would be enough light to see, but once he hit the ground, it would darken. That was likely his plan. To be off the plane while still light enough to see, but with night quickly approaching so he could disappear in the darkness.

If he jumped at 5:45, he would have jumped in the vicinity of Spanaway on the outskirts of Seattle an  and the dropzone would have been near South Hill also in the Seattle suburbs.

 If he jumped closer to 6:00 pm, he would have jumped about 5 or 6 miles north of Etna, WA and the dropzone would be about 5 miles north or Ariel. That area is pretty rugged and remote.

This obviously uses very broad approximations and a lot of speculation, but I think it’s a thought-provoking exercise. Therefore, you can’t draw any decent conclusions from it, but it would seem that it would have been better for Cooper to have the stairs down on takeoff as it would have resulted in a landing closer to civilization.

Fact check me, my times might be wrong.

Here is an additional assumption.  Assume that the airliner could climb to 10,000 feet as fast as it normally would and it would be at that altitude in 5 to 10 minutes after takeoff.

Another fact to consider.  With sunset at 4:33 PM or so, with low cloud layers plus an overcast at about 5000 feet, and if it was raining on the airliner in the Seattle area at that time there would be more clouds above the airliner, then it would be essentially pitch black where the airliner was flying.  The only illumination exterior to the airliner would be from the glow of the Seattle area lights through the clouds and overcast below the airliner.  And as the airliner moved out of the Seattle area and over the mountains and forests, there would not be any illumination below the airliner.

Even if Cooper jumped at 5:30 PM, everything below him would be dark.   
96
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Chaucer on August 20, 2022, 07:17:50 PM »
Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:

What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?

The money and parachutes would have arrived at precisely 5:00. Fueling would have proceeded without delay.

The plane would have taken off at approximately 5:30. Airstairs down on takeoff? Or lowered in flight? If airstairs down at takeoff, then Cooper likely would have jumped 15 minutes after takeoff at 5:45. If the airstairs were to be lowered in flight, he expected it to be easy to do. His inability to lower airstairs properly delayed him about 10 minutes. So, if the airstairs were to be lowered after takeoff, then he would have jumped closer to 6:00pm

Sunset on that date was at 4:33pm. Even at 6:00 pm there would be enough light to see, but once he hit the ground, it would darken. That was likely his plan. To be off the plane while still light enough to see, but with night quickly approaching so he could disappear in the darkness.

If he jumped at 5:45, he would have jumped in the vicinity of Spanaway on the outskirts of Seattle an  and the dropzone would have been near South Hill also in the Seattle suburbs.

 If he jumped closer to 6:00 pm, he would have jumped about 5 or 6 miles north of Etna, WA and the dropzone would be about 5 miles north or Ariel. That area is pretty rugged and remote.

This obviously uses very broad approximations and a lot of speculation, but I think it’s a thought-provoking exercise. Therefore, you can’t draw any decent conclusions from it, but it would seem that it would have been better for Cooper to have the stairs down on takeoff as it would have resulted in a landing closer to civilization.

Fact check me, my times might be wrong.
97
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by Chaucer on August 20, 2022, 06:37:42 PM »
Yes, I saw. Dr. Edwards and I have been kindly emailing frequently about this aspect of the case along with several others.

I’m slowly conducting research on an scholarly paper I plan on writing and having published. His help and the other of other experts have been invaluable, and I will be indebted.
98
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on August 20, 2022, 04:24:01 PM »
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Offers accepted. That said, Dr. Edwards and myself have done a fair bit of research and analysis into the flight comms that night. Your research would be helpful cross-referencing what we have done.

I would certainly post anything I find on this website first.

Chaucer, Dr. Edwards posted an excellent analysis related to the communications on his blog yesterday.

If you really want to understand the FAA Air Traffic Control System you need to go to the FAA web page and download FAA Publication JO 7110.65Z, Air Traffic Control, then read it and keep it for reference.  It is only 688 pages long.  After reading it, you can pursue related publications.

The above document also contains a 103-page "Pilot/Controller Glossary".  However the term "Radar Sector" is not included.
99
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on August 20, 2022, 03:58:11 PM »
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R99, does that 14 minute period correspond to the time frame you mention the WSHM says is redacted or missing ?  Or am I mucking this all up..?

JAG, I'm afraid I don't find the Ulis/Ammerman explanation very convincing.  You are not mucking anything up.

When I joined DropZone in 2009, before I made my first post, I obtained copies of the IFR Enroute Low Altitude Charts L1/L2, which were in effect on the day of the hijacking, from the National Archives and Records Administration (which is the same organization that is currently in the media).  They were in digital format on disks and I had a photographic company print out a hard copy for my personal use.  The total cost was about $400 not counting the cost of antiacids that I needed in dealing with a certain NARA sub-contractor.  Anyway, I sent Sluggo a copy of the disks and he printed out copies that are on his website (wherever that site is today).  Eventually, I sent all of the original disks to Fred Poyner at the WSHM and they are available on that site today.

Here is a general picture of how airspace was divided in 1971.  From sea level (or ground level) to 18,000 feet, IFR traffic used the Low Altitude Charts for navigation and the airways were named Victor Airways.  Everything from 18,000 to 60,000 feet used the High Altitude Charts and were named Jet Airways.  Above 60,000 feet, everything was VFR (not IFR) and point-to-point.

Cooper specified that the airliner was not to fly above 10,000 feet above sea level.  This is also the minimum altitude for obstacle clearance and radio navigation/communications reception on the flight south from SEATAC.  These altitudes were established for air traffic control purposes on V-23.

At times during this segment, radio contact with ARINC was lost and communications were relayed by two other airliners to an ARINC facility.  When in the California area, Oakland Air Traffic Control told the airliner to switch to the Sacramento ARINC frequency and they did so.  But this did not have anything to do with air traffic control.

In the Seattle Air Traffic Control radio transcripts, a total of 19 areas of redactions are indicated.  There were no redactions indicated in the Oakland Air Traffic Control radio transcripts.

The roll of ARINC teletype transcripts included with the Harrison papers was made avail to Fred Poyner at the WSHM.  He made a study of what was on that roll, which had been sliced up considerably, and the public released teletype transcripts.

Poyner concluded that there were 8 areas in the ARINC transcripts of "missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, with each area made up of one or more individual 'blocks' or entries of text."  He listed a total of 30 "entries of text" that were missing for the period from 4:45 PM to 8:05 PM PST, inclusive.

Poyner also concluded that there was nothing missing between time stamps for 8:10 PM to 8:24 PM PST when compared to the public released transcripts for this time period.

For anyone wishing to pursue this further, the Seattle and Oakland Air Traffic Control transcripts and some of the ARINC teletype transcripts are posted here on Shutter's site.  Fred Poyner's analysis, or at least part of it, may be available on the WSHM web page.       
Im guessing Cooper has cost you more than $400?  He has cost many people plenty of money.   And some, more than what he stole.  I always wondered after watching the Prison Break act on the Cooper heist, does anyone think its possible he actually did get more?  That the FBI and the Northwest Airlines could have liked about the dollar amount?  Or are there just too many cooks in the kitchen for that to have happened?

You are correct.  That $400 was just the start and a lot more has followed including more than 10,000+ miles of driving and several months on the road.

My personal opinion of Cooper is that he was extremely lucky one afternoon and evening until he step off the aft stairs and came face to face with Mother Nature who is a severe task maker.  And a minute or two later he was on the ground and deceased.

There is zero evidence to back up your claim that he died in the jump and I believe NO WAY.    He survived the jump.  Its after that we do not have any idea.  Well some ideas, but none that are fool proof.
Hey Chaucer, you are the Zodiac researcher here right?  I see several YouTube feeds claiming they know who the Zodiac was and that its solved and al of that. But there is so much crap out there.  Do you know if its actually proven as to his identity?  I certainly do not believe that Jack The Ripper was the guy that they recently named on a couple of channels.  I do believe that it was Charles Lechmere.

Conversely, there is zero evidence to back up your claim that Cooper survived the jump or that he was Charles Lechmere. 
100
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by DBfan57 on August 20, 2022, 02:58:17 PM »
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R99, does that 14 minute period correspond to the time frame you mention the WSHM says is redacted or missing ?  Or am I mucking this all up..?

JAG, I'm afraid I don't find the Ulis/Ammerman explanation very convincing.  You are not mucking anything up.

When I joined DropZone in 2009, before I made my first post, I obtained copies of the IFR Enroute Low Altitude Charts L1/L2, which were in effect on the day of the hijacking, from the National Archives and Records Administration (which is the same organization that is currently in the media).  They were in digital format on disks and I had a photographic company print out a hard copy for my personal use.  The total cost was about $400 not counting the cost of antiacids that I needed in dealing with a certain NARA sub-contractor.  Anyway, I sent Sluggo a copy of the disks and he printed out copies that are on his website (wherever that site is today).  Eventually, I sent all of the original disks to Fred Poyner at the WSHM and they are available on that site today.

Here is a general picture of how airspace was divided in 1971.  From sea level (or ground level) to 18,000 feet, IFR traffic used the Low Altitude Charts for navigation and the airways were named Victor Airways.  Everything from 18,000 to 60,000 feet used the High Altitude Charts and were named Jet Airways.  Above 60,000 feet, everything was VFR (not IFR) and point-to-point.

Cooper specified that the airliner was not to fly above 10,000 feet above sea level.  This is also the minimum altitude for obstacle clearance and radio navigation/communications reception on the flight south from SEATAC.  These altitudes were established for air traffic control purposes on V-23.

At times during this segment, radio contact with ARINC was lost and communications were relayed by two other airliners to an ARINC facility.  When in the California area, Oakland Air Traffic Control told the airliner to switch to the Sacramento ARINC frequency and they did so.  But this did not have anything to do with air traffic control.

In the Seattle Air Traffic Control radio transcripts, a total of 19 areas of redactions are indicated.  There were no redactions indicated in the Oakland Air Traffic Control radio transcripts.

The roll of ARINC teletype transcripts included with the Harrison papers was made avail to Fred Poyner at the WSHM.  He made a study of what was on that roll, which had been sliced up considerably, and the public released teletype transcripts.

Poyner concluded that there were 8 areas in the ARINC transcripts of "missing, or redacted, teletype print copy, with each area made up of one or more individual 'blocks' or entries of text."  He listed a total of 30 "entries of text" that were missing for the period from 4:45 PM to 8:05 PM PST, inclusive.

Poyner also concluded that there was nothing missing between time stamps for 8:10 PM to 8:24 PM PST when compared to the public released transcripts for this time period.

For anyone wishing to pursue this further, the Seattle and Oakland Air Traffic Control transcripts and some of the ARINC teletype transcripts are posted here on Shutter's site.  Fred Poyner's analysis, or at least part of it, may be available on the WSHM web page.       
Im guessing Cooper has cost you more than $400?  He has cost many people plenty of money.   And some, more than what he stole.  I always wondered after watching the Prison Break act on the Cooper heist, does anyone think its possible he actually did get more?  That the FBI and the Northwest Airlines could have liked about the dollar amount?  Or are there just too many cooks in the kitchen for that to have happened?

You are correct.  That $400 was just the start and a lot more has followed including more than 10,000+ miles of driving and several months on the road.

My personal opinion of Cooper is that he was extremely lucky one afternoon and evening until he step off the aft stairs and came face to face with Mother Nature who is a severe task maker.  And a minute or two later he was on the ground and deceased.

There is zero evidence to back up your claim that he died in the jump and I believe NO WAY.    He survived the jump.  Its after that we do not have any idea.  Well some ideas, but none that are fool proof.
Hey Chaucer, you are the Zodiac researcher here right?  I see several YouTube feeds claiming they know who the Zodiac was and that its solved and al of that. But there is so much crap out there.  Do you know if its actually proven as to his identity?  I certainly do not believe that Jack The Ripper was the guy that they recently named on a couple of channels.  I do believe that it was Charles Lechmere.
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