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DB Cooper / Re: CooperCon 2021
« Last post by DBfan57 on August 02, 2021, 06:54:03 AM »
I hope your big conference is NO WHERE NEAR DOWNTOWN PORTLAND!!!!  Its become a place no law abiding citizen dares to to.  Murders up 700%.  No way will you catch me there
12
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on August 01, 2021, 10:16:36 PM »
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A couple points -

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           Not sure if I have this right.... You can check the integrity of the rigger's seal without pulling out the rigger's packing card? Is this correct?

The rigger's lead seal is on the endpoints of the thread which is tied around the last pin on the ripcord.  The point is that when the ripcord is pulled the thread is broken and that means someone has opened the parachute.  The integrity of the rigger's seal can be checked by opening the flap that covers the ripcord and the cones through which the ripcord pins are inserted.  The rigger's packing card is a piece of paper that has its own small storage pocket somewhere on the harness or container and contains information regarding repacking and other items related to the parachute.  To be legal for emergency use, the parachute must have been repacked within a specified time period and the rigger's lead seal must be intact.

R99 is correct on this. As for the difference of military vs civilian packing cards on backpack bailout rigs, I'm not 100% sure, but I can't see where they'd differ much if at all. Pretty basic information - the type of canopy inside, the repack dates (and if used vs normal 'cycle' repack), and any repairs or part changes made. R99 is also correct that the ejection systems for high performance military aircraft are a whole different matter. Those are usually integrated with the seat and designed for the specific aircraft.

Interesting to note, looking at the picture of the card for Hayden's returned chute, neither rigger wrote the 3-letter seal ID on the card. Not that I look at a lot of them, but most of the ones i see today do have it. I guess it's rigger's discretion.

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I talked to an older rigger, and according to him indeed it was a fairly common practice for an instructor to use a bailout rig to put out static line students instead of wearing a more cumbersome gutter gear sport rig. They wouldn't jump with it, but put out their students and ride the plane down. So Eric's assertion that Cossey may have used the DBC rig while instructing is feasible.

------------

Don't know what Hayden's plane was, but it would be aerobatic. The FAA requires a bailout rig for aerobatic flying, which is why he had them. According to RMB, Hayden was annoyed by this and had no intention of ever actually using it. I'm guessing that a structural failure or a fire may have convinced him otherwise.

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Per 377's post, my first reserve ride was also on a 26' Navy Conical. It was 4 years older than I was.

My first and last reserve ride was on a surplus 24' military reserve on my 9th jump.  It was required due to the canopy of a 5-TU managing to get inside itself in some manner that resulted in the canopy area being reduced to about 1/3 of its normal size and the right risers going up to the left side of the canopy and the left risers going up to the left side of the canopy.  This resulted in what was basically a rotating streamer.  I had to reach behind my head and pull the risers apart so I could tilt my head back enough to see what was going on with the canopy.

I had difficulty getting the reserve deployed despite hand feeding it out.  It fouled in the main canopy for several seconds and then fully opened giving me a good opening shock.  Releasing the main canopy proved to be a problem also since those WW2 Capewells didn't function very well in the air.  But I finally got rid of the main canopy and ended up landing in some young sapling trees that prevented me from getting more than my toes on the ground.

My skydiving instructor, who was a rigger and who packed the reserve, saw the whole matter from the jump plane.  He jumped, and forgot his helmet, and was the first one to reach me.  He helped me get out of the harness.  He also got my autograph in his rigger's logbook and a case of his favorite beverage.

Lessons learned included wearing gloves on jumps, I usually did but not on that jump, and carrying a sharp pocket knife that could be accessed on the ground and used to cut myself out of a harness when necessary.  I got shroud burns on both hands and problems with both thumbs from the reserve deployment and the Capewell problem.

The Great Amazon, of DZ fame, told me that she took a reserve ride on her 10th jump.
13
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by dudeman17 on August 01, 2021, 08:33:05 PM »
A couple points -

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           Not sure if I have this right.... You can check the integrity of the rigger's seal without pulling out the rigger's packing card? Is this correct?

The rigger's lead seal is on the endpoints of the thread which is tied around the last pin on the ripcord.  The point is that when the ripcord is pulled the thread is broken and that means someone has opened the parachute.  The integrity of the rigger's seal can be checked by opening the flap that covers the ripcord and the cones through which the ripcord pins are inserted.  The rigger's packing card is a piece of paper that has its own small storage pocket somewhere on the harness or container and contains information regarding repacking and other items related to the parachute.  To be legal for emergency use, the parachute must have been repacked within a specified time period and the rigger's lead seal must be intact.

R99 is correct on this. As for the difference of military vs civilian packing cards on backpack bailout rigs, I'm not 100% sure, but I can't see where they'd differ much if at all. Pretty basic information - the type of canopy inside, the repack dates (and if used vs normal 'cycle' repack), and any repairs or part changes made. R99 is also correct that the ejection systems for high performance military aircraft are a whole different matter. Those are usually integrated with the seat and designed for the specific aircraft.

Interesting to note, looking at the picture of the card for Hayden's returned chute, neither rigger wrote the 3-letter seal ID on the card. Not that I look at a lot of them, but most of the ones i see today do have it. I guess it's rigger's discretion.

------------

I talked to an older rigger, and according to him indeed it was a fairly common practice for an instructor to use a bailout rig to put out static line students instead of wearing a more cumbersome gutter gear sport rig. They wouldn't jump with it, but put out their students and ride the plane down. So Eric's assertion that Cossey may have used the DBC rig while instructing is feasible.

------------

Don't know what Hayden's plane was, but it would be aerobatic. The FAA requires a bailout rig for aerobatic flying, which is why he had them. According to RMB, Hayden was annoyed by this and had no intention of ever actually using it. I'm guessing that a structural failure or a fire may have convinced him otherwise.

-------------

Per 377's post, my first reserve ride was also on a 26' Navy Conical. It was 4 years older than I was.

14
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on August 01, 2021, 04:02:17 PM »
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           Not sure if I have this right.... You can check the integrity of the rigger's seal without pulling out the rigger's packing card? Is this correct?

The rigger's lead seal is on the endpoints of the thread which is tied around the last pin on the ripcord.  The point is that when the ripcord is pulled the thread is broken and that means someone has opened the parachute.  The integrity of the rigger's seal can be checked by opening the flap that covers the ripcord and the cones through which the ripcord pins are inserted.  The rigger's packing card is a piece of paper that has its own small storage pocket somewhere on the harness or container and contains information regarding repacking and other items related to the parachute.  To be legal for emergency use, the parachute must have been repacked within a specified time period and the rigger's lead seal must be intact.
15
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by DBfan57 on August 01, 2021, 02:38:20 PM »
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Yo, DB, I live 30 miles due west of Mount Rainier. Hence, I live in WA. In fact, I'm 120 miles north of the Columbia River, which is the borderline between WA and OR.

Further, I invite you to check out my writings on Cooper at the Mountain News-WA. Note: this site is NOT The Mountain News-OR!

Smile.

Lastly, "Cooper Country," (CC) which I reference here often is the region central to Norjak - Sea-Tac airport, Thun Field, Castle Rock and Silver Lake (placard finding site), Ariel, Amboy, Heisson, Battleground, Woodland, T-Bar, and Vancouver - and are all in Washington State. Only PDX is in Oregon.

Lastly, lastly, when you visit, such as to attend CC21, please know that "Oregon" is pronounced as Or-e-gun locally, whereas everywhere else, like New York, it is pronounced "Or-e-gone." We in CC tend to snicker when we hear the out-of-towners mis-pronounce the state. I know it's rude, but it's fun....
I just watched the episode on this case on Unsolved Mysteries with the late Robert Stack.  Did you see that one?  Anyway, Tina was not on it.  But Florence Shaffner was.  And she was very very cooperative on that show.  Obviously things changed since that?  She was on and not Tina?  That to me is strange too.
16
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by haggarknew on August 01, 2021, 09:27:19 AM »
            As per dredge matter... Did this occur during the same timeline of the Tena Bar deposits?
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DB Cooper / Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Last post by EU on August 01, 2021, 09:24:12 AM »
I will be conducting a two-day dig and search of a very specific spot on Tena Bar this Friday, August 6th and Saturday, August 7th. I'm hoping to find DBC's parachutes and/or attache case. I will be searching with a few volunteers including Bruce Smith.

The search on Saturday, August 7th will be broadcast LIVE via Facebook Live beginning at 10 AM Pacific. This will require joining the "D.B. Cooper : Mystery Group" on Facebook at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login .
18
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by haggarknew on August 01, 2021, 09:16:35 AM »
           Not sure if I have this right.... You can check the integrity of the rigger's seal without pulling out the rigger's packing card? Is this correct?
19
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by georger on August 01, 2021, 01:39:25 AM »
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Norman Hayden was an acrobatic pilot. That is why he had the type of chutes he had - he says ...

Original 2011 article on Hayden by Smith: Smith quotes Hayden:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login 

"Also, there was a rectangular foam pad, covered in grayish-blue nylon that looked like a little pillow and was located in the middle part of the harness, as if it was padding to make the rig more comfortable for an acrobatic pilot to wear.
 
Norman says he is strictly a “precision acrobatic pilot,” and he’s very proud of his flying acumen.  Obviously, he has never needed a parachute.  Hence, the parachute was used strictly to maintain compliance with FAA acrobatic regulations . . . "

. . . see photos of Hayden's chutes ... Hayden agreed to RENT his chutes to the FBI ...


*Hmmm. Acrobatic pilot chute may have been used by acrobatic oscillations-bump hijacker ? Hmmmmm.  ;)  Acrobats unite!  Thats one helluva a coincidence? Was Cooper an acrobat and a former Olympian ? Maybe he knew an acrobatic chute when he saw one ?  :o

That does look like an NB-6 harness.  I can't see enough of the container to determine if it is an NB-6 type.  And this does not look like the harness and container that is on the WSHM parachute.

many photos of Hayden's chute at the article url ... You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
20
DB Cooper / Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on August 01, 2021, 12:23:08 AM »
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Norman Hayden was an acrobatic pilot. That is why he had the type of chutes he had - he says ...

Original 2011 article on Hayden by Smith: Smith quotes Hayden:  You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login 

"Also, there was a rectangular foam pad, covered in grayish-blue nylon that looked like a little pillow and was located in the middle part of the harness, as if it was padding to make the rig more comfortable for an acrobatic pilot to wear.
 
Norman says he is strictly a “precision acrobatic pilot,” and he’s very proud of his flying acumen.  Obviously, he has never needed a parachute.  Hence, the parachute was used strictly to maintain compliance with FAA acrobatic regulations . . . "

. . . see photos of Hayden's chutes ... Hayden agreed to RENT his chutes to the FBI ...


*Hmmm. Acrobatic pilot chute may have been used by acrobatic oscillations-bump hijacker ? Hmmmmm.  ;)  Acrobats unite!  Thats one helluva a coincidence? Was Cooper an acrobat and a former Olympian ? Maybe he knew an acrobatic chute when he saw one ?  :o

That does look like an NB-6 harness.  I can't see enough of the container to determine if it is an NB-6 type.  And this does not look like the harness and container that is on the WSHM parachute.
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