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11
DB Cooper / Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Last post by Shutter on August 08, 2023, 09:14:36 PM »
Hey dudeman, all is as well as it can be, I guess..

The main objective is to verify the chute. the DNA, not so sure since so many have handled the chute in the past and touch DNA is tricky on time frames due to how it was stored over the years (temps) along with it's travels etc. everything is worth a shot..

I haven't heard back from them so I will call them tomorrow and see if I can get the ball rolling..I can only hope they agree to allow this to happen..this could also be documented in the display...

Lets see what happens....

Shutter
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DB Cooper / Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Last post by dudeman17 on August 08, 2023, 07:39:16 PM »
Good to see a post from you Shutter, I hope everything is well with you. Thanks for clearing up the guest/bot issue. I was wondering about the sudden rise in interest, but my post was somewhat in jest, as I believe R99's response was. As for the museum chute, as I'm sure you've read over at dz, Flyjack makes an argument that that chute should not be handled until it could be tested for DNA, as Cooper likely handled it. I think that argument has merit, not sure how or if that could be arranged.
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DB Cooper / Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Last post by Shutter on August 06, 2023, 01:16:50 PM »
Let me clear a few things up...the home page guest views is probably around 99% spambots, they try to intrude into webforums to start a new thread with some sort of advertising or even a virus..the bots are typically from Russia and China. they will have similar IP's constantly trying to join the forum. I have a simple step that stops them by asking a simple question while trying to register..

WSHS parachute...I contacted the museum during the pandemic and discussed the problems with the parachute and the need to have it opened for clarification purposes...I was told at the time that a new office manager was coming in and it would be up to her to give any permission to open the chute..I tried several months later but they were still closed.

I will try and contact them again an see if they will agree to allow the chute to be opened. I have a rigger out of Seattle that will travel to WSHS and do the repack. Bruce Smith was going to be there to document and take pics but he's gone so someone needs to step up and take his place....

Shutter
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DB Cooper / Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Last post by DBfan57 on August 06, 2023, 10:07:50 AM »
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            I also hope that there are still people here to discuss the case. I prefer this site as well. I enjoy the discussions at the Dropzone forum. I haven't been on the FB site. ( not sure I would be welcome 😂 lol )
Why wouldn't you be welcome? We have over 3500 members there. All opinions and backgrounds welcome, including yours.

That said, I also wish this forum had more activity. Not sure why it has fallen off...

I confess this is my first visit in quite some time,  I think some people, myself included, find that this case is very close to being, unsolvable.  The final act that sealed it was the loss of the cigarette butts.  DNA is a very powerful tool in crime and forensics.  There can only be a few possible smoking guns to come about here.  And they are highly unlikely.  I see a new Zodiac video on YouTube.  That one likely is more solvable?  I saw your plane post. Nice.  The 727.
I agree that the case is unsolvable. I do not think there is enough physical evidence to tie to a single suspect. The tie particles MAY limit the pool of people Cooper could be, but I simply do not think (in the absence of DNA) that we will ever get an answer beyond a reasonable doubt.

That said, I have busied myself with other aspects of the case. I have done a deep dive into the evolution of the dropzone along with the communications that night. I've also spent a lot of time speaking to experts in regards to Tena Bar in an effort to bust some of the commonly believed myths.

At this point, the Cooper case it more of a thought exercise rather than an effort to identify a particular suspect.

As far as not as many people posting here as in the past, I think the FB group has sucked a lot of the oxygen out of the room. Unlike the DZ, there isn't anywhere near the level of toxicity and unlike here, anyone is welcome to join and contribute.  I think the Vortex is evolving and expanding and I'm not sure some of the older generation of Cooper researchers can adapt. It's friendlier, less contentious, less competitive, and more collaborative than a decade ago.

This isn't my site, obviously. It's Shutter's. But I would like to see this forum evolve into a place where it's an "experts only" forum. Where the most experienced, knowledgeable, and respected Cooper researchers can come and discuss the case and collaborate. Just my two cents.

How do you really classify one as a true expert in this area?  And who knows where the smoking gun could come from if it is ever solved, lets say by more of the money being found somewhere.   As much a longshot as any "expert" solving this.  I would like to see a seperate thread or area to discuss other cases.  Like  JFK and Jack the Ripper lets say.  Those two are likely the only two bigger than the Cooper case.  Closure will never likely come in any of them. 
15
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Chaucer on July 11, 2023, 12:29:07 PM »
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All,
I was having dinner with my science friend Bruce the other night and he asked about Cooper. I told him there was a big discussion about the flight path and the placard drift rate. Bruce is retired from JPL, created the first clear air turbulence instrument and was on the team that discovered the ozone hole. He described the boundary layer  over land (as opposed to water) as going from 0-3000 feet or so and it is in this layer that the winds typically are in a different direction from winds aloft. He said the way to answer the question is get the radiosonde data from those dates in that area and it would show the winds from ground to 12K+ feet or so. It turns out that the data is tricky to get and condense into readable form so I had to bribe him with a steak dinner and now we have the data!

The two closest locations were Salem just south of Portland and Quillayute Bruce said was just west of Seattle. They launch twice a day at 5pm and 5am so that is the data we have. I had him pull a second random day Nov 11 for comparison and you can see that the winds then were actually east near the ground. Nov 24 looks pretty consistent all the way down but seems to be more southerly than we had estimated. Now you can do a proper analysis. :)

Tom Kaye
This is Tom's original post about the radiosonde data.

Here is his last sentence for emphasis:

Nov 24 looks pretty consistent all the way down but seems to be more southerly than we had estimated.

If you believe the theory that the ground winds were consistent with the winds aloft is baseless, perhaps you should take it up with Tom.

Also, I know the winds aloft were measured by the balloons. You keep trying to pick a fight over things we agree with. As unbelievable as it may be to you, you are not the only one who understands this stuff.

Rather than trying to be confrontational, condescending, and argumentative, perhaps you should cooperate and collaborate in good faith.

This isn't a contest on who is smarter or who gets the right answer first. It's about everyone working together to find the truth. That's why I share the information that I find with everyone rather than working alone in the dark. It's also why I am comfortable admitting when I am wrong or when I don't know something and asking for help. I don't have all the answers. Spoiler alert: neither do you. Maybe all of us together can change that.
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DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on July 11, 2023, 11:14:29 AM »
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Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.

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Here is the post along with the link. At no point did I claim that they were winds aloft, yet you fail to recognize that Tom's winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet.

Chaucer, Tom Kaye's "winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet" is exactly what I have been telling you.  The NOAA balloon data was the sole source of measured data used in predicting the winds aloft that the FAA issued for pilot planning purposes.  Except for the measured NOAA balloon data and what was measured at ground level and reported in the hourly sequences reports, everything else was a prediction.

The winds aloft were measured by the balloons from ground level up and we do not need to go above 10,000 feet above sea level here since that is as high as the airliner went in the WA and OR areas.
I feel like I'm being gaslighted.

This is what I have been telling YOU. Why are you trying to argue with me about it?

My point is that that NOAA data from Tom shows that the ground winds and winds aloft were fairly consistent with one another. Therefore, one could conclude that if we know the ground winds, the winds aloft would not be much different. The caveat is that the NOAA data provided by Tom comes from reporting  areas dozens about miles away from any reasonable jump spot. So, the data is of the winds aloft is merely estimates and extrapolations.

Chaucer, you seem to be unable to understand that the winds aloft were MEASURED by the balloon data. 

Also, your theory that the winds aloft will be in the same direction as the surface winds is baseless.  To disprove your theory, all you have to do is check the surface winds for several locations near where you live and those surface winds will probably be in completely different directions.

The FAA's publication, "Aviation Weather", is available free and online for anyone who wants to gain some knowledge of the subject.
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DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Chaucer on July 11, 2023, 12:39:20 AM »
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Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.

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Here is the post along with the link. At no point did I claim that they were winds aloft, yet you fail to recognize that Tom's winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet.

Chaucer, Tom Kaye's "winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet" is exactly what I have been telling you.  The NOAA balloon data was the sole source of measured data used in predicting the winds aloft that the FAA issued for pilot planning purposes.  Except for the measured NOAA balloon data and what was measured at ground level and reported in the hourly sequences reports, everything else was a prediction.

The winds aloft were measured by the balloons from ground level up and we do not need to go above 10,000 feet above sea level here since that is as high as the airliner went in the WA and OR areas.
I feel like I'm being gaslighted.

This is what I have been telling YOU. Why are you trying to argue with me about it?

My point is that that NOAA data from Tom shows that the ground winds and winds aloft were fairly consistent with one another. Therefore, one could conclude that if we know the ground winds, the winds aloft would not be much different. The caveat is that the NOAA data provided by Tom comes from reporting  areas dozens about miles away from any reasonable jump spot. So, the data is of the winds aloft is merely estimates and extrapolations.

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DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on July 10, 2023, 11:36:23 PM »
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Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.

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Here is the post along with the link. At no point did I claim that they were winds aloft, yet you fail to recognize that Tom's winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet.

Chaucer, Tom Kaye's "winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet" is exactly what I have been telling you.  The NOAA balloon data was the sole source of measured data used in predicting the winds aloft that the FAA issued for pilot planning purposes.  Except for the measured NOAA balloon data and what was measured at ground level and reported in the hourly sequences reports, everything else was a prediction.

The winds aloft were measured by the balloons from ground level up and we do not need to go above 10,000 feet above sea level here since that is as high as the airliner went in the WA and OR areas.
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DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Chaucer on July 10, 2023, 04:16:46 PM »
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Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.

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Here is the post along with the link. At no point did I claim that they were winds aloft, yet you fail to recognize that Tom's winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet.
20
DB Cooper / Re: General Questions About The Case
« Last post by Robert99 on July 09, 2023, 06:12:17 PM »
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As repeatedly pointed out to you, the only available winds aloft information for the Portland and Seattle areas is that provided by the NOAA balloon data and the FAA winds aloft data provided to pilots for flight planning.
Pointed out to me? I'm the one that posted the file with the data, Robert. You chose not to read it.

Discussing this topic with you is exhausting. What exactly have I said that you disagree with?

Chaucer, I am not aware of you posting a file with any meaningful data.  The only meaningful or realistic winds aloft data that I am aware of is that which Tom Kaye obtained and I believe it is all posted on this site.
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