Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 372384 times)

Offline fcastle866

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 272
  • Thanked: 101 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3255 on: December 25, 2021, 08:16:09 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Does anyone know the identifiable feature or characteristic of Cooper according to the college student sitting across the aisle from Cooper?  It seems I read somewhere he had an unusual feature according to him but not seen this since.

In an interview he gave with the WSHS he referred to Cooper as having a double chin, like a "turkey gobble" if this is what you mean. Believe he said something similar to the FBI back in '71.
Other members here please correct me if I am wrong.

"turkey gobble" referred to a hanging flap or pouch of skin BELOW the person's chin extending to the neck area. It's a poor somewhat confusing phrase to use and the fact they did not include this in the sketches and description is plain stupid and defeating! The logic for withholding this detail, Gray says, was to distinguish fakes from the real Cooper. But how many witnesses included the turkey neck in their descriptions? We will never know. Some did and some didn't? But, either he did have this feature or he didn't! A valid comparison would be to ask: did he have a right arm or didn't he!?  It is not a superficial worthless detail! And this debate about it is stupid beyond belief.

The correct term is Turkey Neck not turkey gobble. Did he have a turkey penis? The feature is a layer of subcutaneous fat located below the chin bone at the anterior neck which is covered by sagging or stretched skin, creating a redundancy, making the owner appear as if he/she has a second or third chin or a sagging pouch hanging below the chin which is independent of the neck but which adjoins to the neck.

BTW such features can be associated with aging.

Keep in mind, Mitchell gave a totally different description of Cooper's cloths and dress! Russet red suit jacket. Shabby disheveled appearance as if he had slept in the streets over night. Everyone else seemed to miss these glaring details. The young stud Mitchel says he was pissed the stews were paying ("the old guy") Cooper so much attention while ignoring the young college stud Mitchel - Mitchel confesses. Mitchel says he kept looking over at Cooper and Mucklow etal basically asking: what has this guy got that I dont have ... to get a date! ? The whole thing leaves one wondering just where the hormone driven young stud Mitchel's head was at ... but Gray is quick to pick up on this one lone witnesses' description for all the controversy it can generate ... at the Cooperland horse betting Race Track!    :rofl:   Where is Gray's head at?  :nono:
 
Of all the suspects so far Mel Wilson's chin-neck looks the most like what Gray is describing? And look at Mel's right ear in this mug shot - what is going on with that!?
   

Georger. Any idea where to find Gray’s notes on this. “ The logic for withholding this detail, Gray says, was to distinguish fakes from the real Cooper.” did anyone besides Mitchell see this? If he saw it but Tina did not, then that makes me wonder about a few things. Mitchell does not strike me as a guy who lies or embellishes. A fold of skin on a suspect could add some credibility.
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 898
  • Thanked: 194 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3256 on: January 10, 2022, 08:30:52 PM »
I was looking over Sluggo’s website on the Wayback Machine, and I ran across this odd statement:

“The FBI’s original assumed Drop Zone was re-assessed (in the last 5 years) and has been moved some 17 NM south.”

What is the source of this statement? Who reassessed it? Where is this documented? Is this just Sluggo extrapolating unofficial statements from Larry Carr?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4297
  • Thanked: 432 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3257 on: January 11, 2022, 02:02:40 AM »
The 302s discussing the 1975 Pow Wow in San Francisco talk about moving the DZ south to Hochinson, with an exit from 305 over Orchards, WA, which is now a suburb of Vancouver.
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 898
  • Thanked: 194 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3258 on: January 11, 2022, 02:44:59 AM »
This might be true, Bruce, but Sluggo’s comment refers to “within the last 5 years” which would put the time frame between 2005 and 2010. That’s around the same time Carr was questioning the DZ.

However, Sluggo’s comment makes it seem like official FBI re-evaluation and not a special agent spitballing on a message board.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4297
  • Thanked: 432 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3259 on: January 11, 2022, 03:13:18 PM »
Carr was actively talking about a new LZ in that time frame. I know he talked to Galen about the new, southern LZ, and I believe he was in substantive discussions with Sluggo, who was very active in his own investigation at that time. I think Larry was just ruminating on the above-mentioned 302s. I don't think he conducted any new inquiry into the Cooper LZ.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 03:14:43 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1826
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3260 on: January 11, 2022, 03:43:25 PM »
was just looking to see if ckret had posted anything in 2008 at dz.com about relocating the predicted dropzone

interesting, this post from Carr, talks about his thinking then about how oscillation/pressure bump were conflabulated

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


January 26, 2008
I am with you on the oscillation, when i read through the case file it seems as if the "pressure bump" and oscillation were one in the same. For me the finding of the money changes all of that. If there is no logical, verifiable piece of evidence or information that can point to the money ending up where it did by human hands, then it had to get there on its own from the environment.

Since I can't find anything that says it was human, then it had to be environment. Because there is no way the money could have ended up where it did from the original search area, then the original dropzone was calculated wrong.

Therefore, it stands to reason that the crew felt oscillations at 8:12 and the pressure bump a few minutes later. The second officer stated the last contact they had with Cooper was 8:05 and it was 5 to 10 minutes after that they felt the pressure change. I also don't think a trained air crew would mix up terms, an oscillation would be just that and a pressure change would be called a pressure change or bump.

I think where things went wrong was during the testing. For some reason we were not to re-create oscillations only the pressure bump. At this point the terms must have been combined and believed to be one and the same.
 
The following users thanked this post: nickyb233

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 898
  • Thanked: 194 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3261 on: January 11, 2022, 06:17:53 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
was just looking to see if ckret had posted anything in 2008 at dz.com about relocating the predicted dropzone

interesting, this post from Carr, talks about his thinking then about how oscillation/pressure bump were conflabulated

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


January 26, 2008
I am with you on the oscillation, when i read through the case file it seems as if the "pressure bump" and oscillation were one in the same. For me the finding of the money changes all of that. If there is no logical, verifiable piece of evidence or information that can point to the money ending up where it did by human hands, then it had to get there on its own from the environment.

Since I can't find anything that says it was human, then it had to be environment. Because there is no way the money could have ended up where it did from the original search area, then the original dropzone was calculated wrong.

Therefore, it stands to reason that the crew felt oscillations at 8:12 and the pressure bump a few minutes later. The second officer stated the last contact they had with Cooper was 8:05 and it was 5 to 10 minutes after that they felt the pressure change. I also don't think a trained air crew would mix up terms, an oscillation would be just that and a pressure change would be called a pressure change or bump.

I think where things went wrong was during the testing. For some reason we were not to re-create oscillations only the pressure bump. At this point the terms must have been combined and believed to be one and the same.

I have been repeating this for some time now re: the conflation of the oscillations with the bump.

Tangentially, I find it odd that people often point to “8:13” as a jump time. The oscillations were reported at 8:11. If you think the bump occurred after that, then why choose 8:13? Why not 8:14 or 8:15 or 8:16? If you believe that the oscillations and pressure bump are the same thing then the jump should occur when the oscillations were reported at 8:11.

8:13 seems to be a popular time to attribute to his jump, but there doesn’t seem to be a logical reason why. Very arbitrary.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 06:40:45 PM by Chaucer »
 
The following users thanked this post: nickyb233

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4297
  • Thanked: 432 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3262 on: January 11, 2022, 07:24:44 PM »
8:13 logical? Might be, since that's what Rataczak told me - in fact insisted on it.

The real question is: is it correct?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 07:25:39 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 898
  • Thanked: 194 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3263 on: January 11, 2022, 08:05:48 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
8:13 logical? Might be, since that's what Rataczak told me - in fact insisted on it.

The real question is: is it correct?
But Rataczak himself reported the “oscillations in the cabin” at 8:11. If you believe that the oscillations = the time Cooper jumped, then that time should be 8:11, not 8:13.

If Rat is correct, and the jump occurred at 8:13 then the official DZ has been too far north from the beginning and Rat said nothing about it. Isn’t that odd?
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 286
  • Thanked: 88 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3264 on: January 11, 2022, 09:48:21 PM »
I can't speak to the timing, time, or location of these events, but as for the difference, sequence, and cause of them...

It's been my understanding that there were a number of smaller 'oscillations' culminating in a more significant 'pressure bump' at the end. Ostensibly the oscillations would have been caused by Cooper moving down and up the stairs, which would be slower and less pronounced, ending with the bump when Cooper exited, which would be the most sudden and pronounced effect of his weight on the stairs.

That makes aerodynamic sense to me.
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 898
  • Thanked: 194 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3265 on: January 11, 2022, 10:07:02 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I can't speak to the timing, time, or location of these events, but as for the difference, sequence, and cause of them...

It's been my understanding that there were a number of smaller 'oscillations' culminating in a more significant 'pressure bump' at the end. Ostensibly the oscillations would have been caused by Cooper moving down and up the stairs, which would be slower and less pronounced, ending with the bump when Cooper exited, which would be the most sudden and pronounced effect of his weight on the stairs.

That makes aerodynamic sense to me.
This is how I understand the sequence of events as well.

I find it interesting the while the pressure bump was replicated during the sled test, the oscillations were not. Neither were they felt in copycat crimes. What was Cooper doing with those stairs that no one else did?
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 286
  • Thanked: 88 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3266 on: January 12, 2022, 12:26:22 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I find it interesting the while the pressure bump was replicated during the sled test, the oscillations were not. Neither were they felt in copycat crimes. What was Cooper doing with those stairs that no one else did?

I don't know about the copycat jumps, but as for the sled test...

I can see Cooper going down the stairs a ways (then back up) a couple times, either to toss stuff out, see if he can tell where he's at, or just to check out how they react. Perhaps the sled test people didn't do that.
 

Offline nickyb233

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 260
  • Thanked: 36 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3267 on: January 12, 2022, 01:48:21 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I find it interesting the while the pressure bump was replicated during the sled test, the oscillations were not. Neither were they felt in copycat crimes. What was Cooper doing with those stairs that no one else did?

I don't know about the copycat jumps, but as for the sled test...

I can see Cooper going down the stairs a ways (then back up) a couple times, either to toss stuff out, see if he can tell where he's at, or just to check out how they react. Perhaps the sled test people didn't do that.

The sled test didn’t do a lot of things DM and according to the good doctor Edward’s in his latest book they did things like going into the hydraulic system panel and disabling them making the stairs less stable. How the hell would Cooper have known to do that and why would he. They had plenty of volunteers it’s in the 302’s to do an apples to apples comparison but they took a different route. 🤔
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 898
  • Thanked: 194 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3268 on: January 12, 2022, 02:11:51 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I find it interesting the while the pressure bump was replicated during the sled test, the oscillations were not. Neither were they felt in copycat crimes. What was Cooper doing with those stairs that no one else did?

I don't know about the copycat jumps, but as for the sled test...

I can see Cooper going down the stairs a ways (then back up) a couple times, either to toss stuff out, see if he can tell where he's at, or just to check out how they react. Perhaps the sled test people didn't do that.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 286
  • Thanked: 88 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3269 on: January 13, 2022, 12:27:44 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
...they did things like going into the hydraulic system panel and disabling them making the stairs less stable.

Why would they do that? If the purpose of the test was to replicate the pressure bump to determine if that was in fact when he jumped, why would they change the dynamics of the stairs? Look at the video of the Treat Williams movie, when that guy jumps, the stairs come back up a bit, but slowly and nowhere near a 'slam' that would create a bump. So that says that there might be differences from plane to plane in how they react, possibly due to things like the condition of the hinges, the hydraulic system, and what-not, that would dampen their movement. So if they've got the same plane within a reasonable time, you'd think they'd just leave it as is to keep the conditions the same. I wonder if there had been major maintenance on the system in between. At first I used to think that Cooper pulled the emergency release, which would likely disconnect them from the hydraulic system and allow them to move more freely, but apparently such was not the case.