Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 349822 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3240 on: December 18, 2021, 06:32:38 PM »
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?


No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.

Bruce, you can't make any progress if you stay at the starting point.  If you want to advance the Cooper investigation then you have to move forward.

I agree.
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3241 on: December 18, 2021, 06:34:05 PM »
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?


No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.

Well Bruce if you or anyone else are now pissed off at me for buying Dan Gryder's argument, I really do not care. . The man put together a very solid case compared to most of the others ones I have heard that say some transgender woman did it or some ex jumper.  Gryder's case was well thought out, well presented and he has many things on the side of his argument.  McCoy is the most solid suspect out there.  The FBI agent, Himelbach was a damn  fool, and i hate to say that about any deceased person.  I asked a question that I am sure Mr Kaye will not answer because I am not celebrity enough for him to do so.  IF, the money did go into the water as Gryder states, inside of a parachute or bag, likely no plastic to protect it, could any of it still be intact at the bottom of the River if found after this amount of time?  The bag or chutes you would think could survive in part right?  I am not a scientist.  I need a scientist to answer that question.  The money has never turned up in circulation  Some math Einstein stated before it would have had to show up.  But $20 dollar bills?  So the money is either buried, or spent ages ago unoticed (though someone said that is not possible), or its at the bottom of the river if Mr Gryder's theory is correct and he dropped the money .  It makes sense given the find at Tena Bar.  But McCoy was able to hold on to twice as much on the jump where he was busted.  That is the equivalent of 8 gallons of milk.  40 pounds.  Not easy.  But he did it.  So why would he drop half of it?  Gryder has challenged the storm data. The weather reports.  The FBI looks like the Keystone cops here.  Ill stop for now.  Let the attacks come and respond later.

I can't speak for Bruce or anyone else, but I don't think anyone is pissed at you for buying Dan's story. I'm sure you're not alone in that. As far as the money goes, I think McCoys ransom was in larger denominations, so even though it was more money, it weighed less. Bruce can confirm or correct that. As for believing in a particular suspect, I would caution one to look at the reasons a person is not guilty as opposed to the reasons they are guilty. Rule them out. If you can't find reasons to rule them out then perhaps you're on to something. In the case of McCoy, if we are to believe that he was DB Cooper, then we have to believe that a witness that spent several hours with Cooper could not identify him just a few months later. The same for the other witnesses that saw him. That's a big hurdle, in my opinion. We would also have to believe that the elements found on Coopers tie have nothing to do with Cooper himself, another big hurdle.

well said!  :congrats:
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3242 on: December 18, 2021, 06:45:23 PM »
One of my observations of us Cooper Folk, particularly those of us in our earlier stages of interest in the Norjak saga, tend to wax profusely on a subject that catches our attention at the start. Over time, our enthusiasm becomes tempered, as we see in our Senior Statesmen like Georger, Galen Cook, and Robert99 who have been around this case since the last millennium.

I remember clearly my passion for Barb Dayton in 2008, as she was the first confessee that I encountered, and much of that emotion was fueled by my friendship with Ron and Pat Forman.

Another early passion was MKULTRA and all the guys who though they were DB Cooper. Tina Mucklow was another excitement when I found out that she was living nearby Tina Bar when the money was money by Brian Ingram. I was ecstatic by the sublime coincidence.

Of course, Georger had a field day tearing me a new rectum, but that was another learning....
« Last Edit: December 18, 2021, 06:45:56 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3243 on: December 18, 2021, 07:09:19 PM »
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...if Mr Gryder's theory is correct and he dropped the money...    But McCoy was able to hold on to twice as much on the jump where he was busted.  That is the equivalent of 8 gallons of milk.  40 pounds.  Not easy.  But he did it.  So why would he drop half of it?

Sure, if they were simply holding on to the money it would be easy to drop it, especially since you need one hand to pull the ripcord. But if the money was securely tied to them it shouldn't be a problem. I don't know about McCoy's (other?) jump, but Tina saw Cooper tying the money to himself. Look at how much crap some military jumpers take with them. Look at modern tandem jumps. 20 or 40 pounds is nothing. (If the money was tied in such a way as to be trailing behind them, that could cause a problem entangling with the deploying chute, but that's a different discussion.)

-------

I agree with Parrot, I don't think anyone is pissed at you. I'm not. Just giving you things to consider...
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3244 on: December 18, 2021, 07:51:22 PM »
There's a lot of factors that work against identifying Cooper.

There's a lot of factors that work against a MLB hitter hitting a home run, similarily.

Here's a list of players with than 1000 at bats and no home runs, just looking at players 1946 or later

Mick Kelleher 1972-09-01 1982-10-03 2,869
Neil Berry 1948-04-20 1954-05-11 2,453
Luis Gomez 1974-04-28 1981-10-04 2,253
Ed Crosby 1970-07-12 1976-05-12 1,976
Chad Fonville 1995-04-28 1999-07-09 1,783
Larry Lintz 1973-07-14 1978-05-30 1,581
Eddie O'Brien 1953-04-25 1958-04-19 1,181
Luis Ordaz 1997-09-03 2006-04-03 1,168
Bobby Floyd 1968-09-18 1974-06-24 1,134
Gene Handley 1946-04-16 1947-09-28 1,023

These two were modern-era, with more than 3000 at-bats and no home run
 
Marty Martinez 1962-05-02 1972-10-04 3,927
Tim Johnson 1973-04-24 1979-09-28 3,428

So where am I going with this? Vietnam War stories, told by Tim Johnson.
The two things are connected (inability to hit home runs, and lying)
Or maybe not.
Just like every connected dot in the Cooper vortex. Maybe. Maybe not.

Vietnam War stories controversy
This [Ed. coaching, later ] success was partly attributed to the stories Johnson would tell his players about his battle experiences in the Vietnam War. For example, he told Hentgen a story about his war experiences to get him to accept a different place in the pitching rotation.

However, in late November, Johnson told several Toronto newspapers that all of these stories were completely made up. In truth, Johnson had been in the Marine Corps reserves throughout the war, and trained mortarmen at Camp Pendleton while playing in the Dodgers' farm system. He'd also claimed for over 20 years that he'd been an All-American high school basketball player, and turned down a scholarship to attend UCLA.

During the 1998 baseball winter meetings, Johnson said that admitting the truth was like having "a 50,000 pound weight" taken off his shoulders. He said he'd lied because he felt guilty about going to spring training with the Dodgers while many of his friends fought in the war. He entered therapy, and called several of his players to apologize for lying.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2021, 07:55:42 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3245 on: December 19, 2021, 07:07:13 AM »
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?


No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.

Well Bruce if you or anyone else are now pissed off at me for buying Dan Gryder's argument, I really do not care. . The man put together a very solid case compared to most of the others ones I have heard that say some transgender woman did it or some ex jumper.  Gryder's case was well thought out, well presented and he has many things on the side of his argument.  McCoy is the most solid suspect out there.  The FBI agent, Himelbach was a damn  fool, and i hate to say that about any deceased person.  I asked a question that I am sure Mr Kaye will not answer because I am not celebrity enough for him to do so.  IF, the money did go into the water as Gryder states, inside of a parachute or bag, likely no plastic to protect it, could any of it still be intact at the bottom of the River if found after this amount of time?  The bag or chutes you would think could survive in part right?  I am not a scientist.  I need a scientist to answer that question.  The money has never turned up in circulation  Some math Einstein stated before it would have had to show up.  But $20 dollar bills?  So the money is either buried, or spent ages ago unoticed (though someone said that is not possible), or its at the bottom of the river if Mr Gryder's theory is correct and he dropped the money .  It makes sense given the find at Tena Bar.  But McCoy was able to hold on to twice as much on the jump where he was busted.  That is the equivalent of 8 gallons of milk.  40 pounds.  Not easy.  But he did it.  So why would he drop half of it?  Gryder has challenged the storm data. The weather reports.  The FBI looks like the Keystone cops here.  Ill stop for now.  Let the attacks come and respond later.

I can't speak for Bruce or anyone else, but I don't think anyone is pissed at you for buying Dan's story. I'm sure you're not alone in that. As far as the money goes, I think McCoys ransom was in larger denominations, so even though it was more money, it weighed less. Bruce can confirm or correct that. As for believing in a particular suspect, I would caution one to look at the reasons a person is not guilty as opposed to the reasons they are guilty. Rule them out. If you can't find reasons to rule them out then perhaps you're on to something. In the case of McCoy, if we are to believe that he was DB Cooper, then we have to believe that a witness that spent several hours with Cooper could not identify him just a few months later. The same for the other witnesses that saw him. That's a big hurdle, in my opinion. We would also have to believe that the elements found on Coopers tie have nothing to do with Cooper himself, another big hurdle.

First, I cant believe Snowman has not only brought baseball into this but he went do far as to do all of that tedious research on those players.  Get a life Snowman.  But lets go back to the infernal tie.  The damn tie. Man some of you want to hang your hats on this damn tie.  Ok they found microscopic traces of titanium on it  I have titanium in my back from  back surgery.  There are many ways it could have gotten there and McCoy could have been around it.  Cant say he wasn't.  Who knows where McCoy had gone if that were really his tie.  Now of course his family I believe very quickly said that it belonged to Richard.  Once again, its poor evidence and not real evidence but its another argument that goes in Gryder's favor.  Its still  a shame they lost or tossed the RALEIGH cigarettes.  You know. From Raleigh North Carolina.  Where McCoy came from I guess.  Mr Gryder has moved Richard Floyd McCoy from being ruled out to to the top of the list once again.  IMO.  And you will need more than a fast opinion to sway me on this. His daughter gave a far more compelling argument than all of the other's I have heard before.  That includes Reca and Christianson and Weber and Smith and on and on.
And about identifying him months later, Tina and Flo could not agree on the sketch from what I had heard and the sketch itself looks just like McCoy.  He changed his appearance dramatically in the LA/Denver flight did he not?  Dan Cooper, whoever he was, put the sunglass's on fairly quickly after giving the note to Flo, likely realizing he had better do something about his appearance to make it tougher on the cops if he makes it off the plane with the loot.  So why did they not put tracking devices on the chutes on flight 305 but did on the flight McCoy eventually gets caught for?  I ill say it was very slippery of McCoy to be so smart about everything but so stupid to leave the money, the chutes and all at his damn house 3 days later.  Never count out the FBI from finding you.  If he had hidden all of that stuff, sure he was still in hot water due to that note, the handwriting sample he messed up on and other things like the fingerprints, another blunder.  Those are good arguments against him being Can Cooper who made no real mistaks and maybe he left that tie there on purpose?  Who knows.  Will we ever know any of this? 
« Last Edit: December 19, 2021, 07:37:12 AM by DBfan57 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3246 on: December 19, 2021, 09:29:47 AM »
The FBI had to learn how to deal with domestic hijackings. Cooper caught them with there pants down. the typical hijacking was always political. they had a short period of time to get there shit together. beepers, or tracking devices are mentioned in the 302's as something they were not aware of. you have to keep in mind the FBI doesn't know everything, nor do they know how to handle everything. they learn from there mistakes just as anyone else does.

Lots of people seem to use the knowledge of today trying to blend or reason it into the 1970's. leaving the tie would not be a risk in this time period. tracking things down was a long process with limited results. criminals typically don't leave evidence behind on purpose unless they wish to play. most of the time it's done in letters to taunt law enforcement showing them who is in control.

I always wonder how much people would have built up Martin McNally had he not been caught. he was a bottom feeder career criminal who asked a few questions and went to the library to gain knowledge to try and pull off the same crime Cooper did. we might of been reading all sorts of things on McNally's expertise in everything he did to get away when in reality he was nothing but what is mentioned above.

Lots of these suspects were either presented to the witnesses or they had to have been seen on television or on the internet over the last 5 decades. the documentary Tom Colbert did had Tina on the show and other photo's of known suspects were on the table in front of her. all of these known suspects have had lots of exposure with zero results of someone recognizing them, zero.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3247 on: December 19, 2021, 10:57:27 AM »
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First, I cant believe Snowman has not only brought baseball into this but he went do far as to do all of that tedious research on those players.  Get a life Snowman.  But lets go back to the infernal tie.   

This post above sums up the vortex well.
"Get a life Snowmman. But lets go back to the infernal tie"  had me laughing out loud.

Also good example of how your thinking is flawed. Why would you think the research was tedious? Obviously you have no idea how the research was done. Speculation.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2021, 10:59:26 AM by snowmman »
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3248 on: December 19, 2021, 09:14:04 PM »
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First, I cant believe Snowman has not only brought baseball into this but he went do far as to do all of that tedious research on those players.  Get a life Snowman.  But lets go back to the infernal tie.   

This post above sums up the vortex well.
"Get a life Snowmman. But lets go back to the infernal tie"  had me laughing out loud.

Also good example of how your thinking is flawed. Why would you think the research was tedious? Obviously you have no idea how the research was done. Speculation.
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First, I cant believe Snowman has not only brought baseball into this but he went do far as to do all of that tedious research on those players.  Get a life Snowman.  But lets go back to the infernal tie.   

This post above sums up the vortex well.
"Get a life Snowmman. But lets go back to the infernal tie"  had me laughing out loud.

Also good example of how your thinking is flawed. Why would you think the research was tedious? Obviously you have no idea how the research was done. Speculation.
Come on man.  If had to take a few minutes.   I follow sports 🏈 big time.  Huge fan of Bills, Sabres, and in baseball ⚾️ a life long Orioles fan.   This place sure gets your blood flowing.  An early Merry Christmas to all of you!
 

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3249 on: December 19, 2021, 09:49:48 PM »
“Get a life Snowmman.”

He has one. I’ve seen it. It’s pretty good. 😉

377
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3250 on: December 19, 2021, 09:58:18 PM »
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Come on man.  If had to take a few minutes.   I follow sports 🏈 big time.  Huge fan of Bills, Sabres, and in baseball ⚾️ a life long Orioles fan.   This place sure gets your blood flowing.  An early Merry Christmas to all of you!

okay. let's play for keeps.
I'll bet you $5 that it took me less than 5 secs.
And I'll be able to show you that it did and you won't disagree.
Take the bet?

I mean, Cooper played for keeps. Shouldn't DBC forum posters be held to the same standard?

See that post "worked" at many levels. You're caught up in one of it's levels.
The only way to extract yourself is to not answer this post.
What a conundrum!
« Last Edit: December 19, 2021, 09:59:59 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3251 on: December 22, 2021, 04:49:10 AM »
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Come on man.  If had to take a few minutes.   I follow sports 🏈 big time.  Huge fan of Bills, Sabres, and in baseball ⚾️ a life long Orioles fan.   This place sure gets your blood flowing.  An early Merry Christmas to all of you!

okay. let's play for keeps.
I'll bet you $5 that it took me less than 5 secs.
And I'll be able to show you that it did and you won't disagree.
Take the bet?

I mean, Cooper played for keeps. Shouldn't DBC forum posters be held to the same standard?

See that post "worked" at many levels. You're caught up in one of it's levels.
The only way to extract yourself is to not answer this post.
What a conundrum!
Seconds to list baseball players that did this or that?  Maybe because it was a pretty general stat.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3252 on: December 22, 2021, 09:25:01 AM »
Or you underestimate the web.
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3253 on: December 23, 2021, 03:04:40 PM »
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Or you underestimate the web.

I don't underestimate Richard Floyd McCoy.  Or Dan Gryder.
 

Offline 377

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3254 on: December 24, 2021, 09:05:28 AM »
I don’t underestimate Dan Gryder. He’s an expert pilot and skydiver. I just disagree with his conclusion. I like to think we could again share a few brews and respectfully discuss the case as we did at CC 2021. I still like Dan but wish he’d be more civilized in dealing with his critics.

377