Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 381180 times)

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3225 on: December 16, 2021, 04:04:15 PM »
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Rataczak has said a lot of things about the whereabouts of 305 when Cooper jumped. In the 2016 HC docu he said that 305 was over land that had an elevation of 5,000 feet, giving Cooper only 5,000 feet of air in which to pull his ripcord. Presumably, this put 305 over the western flank of Mt St. Helens, about 30 miles east of V-23.

In 2009, he told me that 305 was "probably a couple miles east of V-23."

In 2011, Himmelsbach told me that Rataczak told him that 305 was over the Washougal, which is 5-10 miles east of V-23.

The recent commentary presented in the Gryder docu that 305 could see Portland clearly because the weather system was breaking up is brand new information, as far as I know. I had never heard that opinion before.

Your contribution to the Cooper case has been to raise doubts, sew confusions, and stall it forever.  With any luck Doomsday will end it once and for all time!

If you have been running WWI, it would still be going on!   :rofl:

« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 04:06:18 PM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3226 on: December 16, 2021, 05:21:04 PM »
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There's been some discussion recently about Rat's statement about seeing the "lights of Portland" and that Cooper jumped before then. If the sky was overcast with two cloud layers, how would that affect the crew's ability to see the city lights? Perhaps the city lights would be bright enough to penetrate the cloud cover?

These were experienced pilots - to put it mildly! These people know the difference between light and dark .... just as they know the difference between a camel and a bath tub!

Duhhhhhhhhhh.

This is NOT an issue of fine distinctions requiring measurements. They knew where they were, they knew what they were seeing based on thousands of hours of prior experience .... the only issue is the timing of the reports.  Cooper seems to have had some idea of how much time had passed since becoming airborne and where the plane was .... he knew, for example, the plane was nowhere near Reno or Columbus, KS. He knew he was south of Seattle somewhere approaching the Columbia/Portland.

The clock and the heading of the plane render R99's 'two layers of clouds' irrelevant. Rtzk's statement about what he saw during this time period further renders R99's clouds irrelevant. Read the music! There is no part in the music for 'two layers of clouds'!     
I won't speak for Robert99, but the FBI files indicate the following:

Thick rain clouds at 10,000 feet
Overcast to 5,000 feet
Broken clouds to 2,700 feet
Scattered clouds to 1,500 feet.

The bottom line is that it was quite cloudy. My question, which you didn't directly address, Georger, was:  could the crew have seen the lights of Portland and the surrounding suburbs through the clouds? It's not a complicated question and isn't indicative of some agenda of mine or narrative that I want to push. I'm merely asking the question: could the city lights have been bright enough to penetrate all of that cloud cover for the crew to see?
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3227 on: December 16, 2021, 06:47:31 PM »
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There's been some discussion recently about Rat's statement about seeing the "lights of Portland" and that Cooper jumped before then. If the sky was overcast with two cloud layers, how would that affect the crew's ability to see the city lights? Perhaps the city lights would be bright enough to penetrate the cloud cover?
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the FBI files indicate the following:

Thick rain clouds at 10,000 feet
Overcast to 5,000 feet
Broken clouds to 2,700 feet
Scattered clouds to 1,500 feet.

The bottom line is that it was quite cloudy. My question, which you didn't directly address, Georger, was:  could the crew have seen the lights of Portland and the surrounding suburbs through the clouds? It's not a complicated question and isn't indicative of some agenda of mine or narrative that I want to push. I'm merely asking the question: could the city lights have been bright enough to penetrate all of that cloud cover for the crew to see?

I can't comment about the timing or the flight path, but about light coming through clouds...

It depends on the amount, thickness, and density of the clouds, and whether there is any patchiness, or holes in them. Light will glow through some cloud cover, but if there are enough clouds it won't. Think of looking up at the night sky to see a full moon. Clear night, sure you can see it. Some clouds, you can see the light glow through it. If the clouds are thick/dense enough, you won't see any light. There seems to be conflict in the differing weather reports for that night. A key part of the answer in my mind, though, is - The crew did in fact report seeing the lights. Are we to doubt their word?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 06:49:06 PM by dudeman17 »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3228 on: December 16, 2021, 08:01:24 PM »
Thanks, dudeman17,

So, it’s possible that they could have seen the city lights through the clouds. It’s also possible that the cloud cover would have made seeing the lights of Portland/Vancouver impossible. It’s difficult to answer because we cannot know the precise weather conditions in that area at that exact time.

Regarding your question about doubting the word of the crew. Couple things to consider. First, we must weigh the statements they made immediately after the incident versus statements made decades later. Here’s an example: in the Zodiac Killer case, a police officer named Foulke wrote a memo to the SFPD brass stating in detail how he saw the killer of taxi cab driver Paul Stine (later confirmed to be a Zodiac victim) as he he walked away from the crime scene. He was interviewed two decades later for a documentary and added the details that the killer walked with a limp and had a widow’s peak. Four decades later, he added and subtracted even more details, contradicting the very memo that he wrote in the days and weeks following the sighting. To complicate matters, Foulke’s partner who was sitting in the passenger seat next to him claimed he saw no such man described by Foulke. So what do we believe? Foulke’s initial description?  The description twenty years later? The description 40 years later? Or his partner’s statements? Do we believe a combination?

I’m not claiming to know the answers to these questions, but I do think that it’s reasonable to assume that recollections change over time, and that we should probably put more weight into statements made closer in time to the incident than decades later.

The other thing to consider is that Rataczak seems to be the most verbose of the crew. The others have been quite reticent in comparison, so Rat’s statements attract more attention. I’d like to compare Rat’s statements with those of the rest of the crew, and see if parallels can be drawn.

To be clear, I’m not trying to discredit Rat. There’s not enough evidence to do so. However, if there WAS evidence that the cloud cover would prevent the crew from seeing the lights of Portland or if another crew member contradicted Rat’s statement, then it’s logical to call some of his previous statements into question.

One thing I do find odd, is that the evidence suggests that the crew wasn’t even sure that DBC had jumped from the plane until it landed in Reno and Anderson investigated. They weren’t even sure if the pressure bump was when Cooper jumped until the sled test in January of the following year. There’s nothing in the radio transcripts where the crew indicated that they thought he had jumped. Still, Rat has stated numerous times that he made the statement “I believe our friend as taken leave of us.” And that he has given precise times (8:11) and distances (28 miles north of Portland) for when Cooper jumped. How is he so sure of those things now when they were a mystery to the crew at the time?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2021, 08:08:48 PM by Chaucer »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3229 on: December 16, 2021, 10:03:52 PM »
Again, Rataczak told me something different. 8:13 pm, and he pegs that time to the Big Pressure Bump. R was adamant about the time, too.
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3230 on: December 16, 2021, 10:08:43 PM »
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Again, Rataczak told me something different. 8:13 pm, and he pegs that time to the Big Pressure Bump. R was adamant about the time, too.
Yes, he speaks with a great deal of confidence, but there’s no evidence that the crew even knew he jumped let alone when. I think Rat has gained those opinions over the years because he did not seem to have them in 1971.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3231 on: December 17, 2021, 02:38:20 AM »
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There's been some discussion recently about Rat's statement about seeing the "lights of Portland" and that Cooper jumped before then. If the sky was overcast with two cloud layers, how would that affect the crew's ability to see the city lights? Perhaps the city lights would be bright enough to penetrate the cloud cover?

They actually saw the glow from the lights in the Portland/Vancouver area, not the actual lights themselves.  The airliner was above two cloud layers plus an overcast.  Georger's quaint comments are just Georger's quaint comments. ;) 
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3232 on: December 17, 2021, 03:13:52 PM »
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There's been some discussion recently about Rat's statement about seeing the "lights of Portland" and that Cooper jumped before then. If the sky was overcast with two cloud layers, how would that affect the crew's ability to see the city lights? Perhaps the city lights would be bright enough to penetrate the cloud cover?

They actually saw the glow from the lights in the Portland/Vancouver area, not the actual lights themselves.  The airliner was above two cloud layers plus an overcast.  Georger's quaint comments are just Georger's quaint comments. ;)

Georger's quaint comment: is that no discussion of this issue is possible given the current makeup of the CHURCH! Facts are not admissible or relevant. R99 made this a personal issue looking for fame years ago for some reason. R99 apparently thought he would take over the whole Cooper debate by claiming lofty credentials no one else could compete with! It happens in every CHURCH!  ;)   

The issue has moved to DZ and is being discussed there.  New evidence about the topic today: it doesnt take a high credentialed genius to know that! Duhhh!

Do not wait on R99 for any Cooper news. R99 has never been in the news or facts business!  :o
« Last Edit: December 17, 2021, 03:35:13 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3233 on: December 17, 2021, 06:30:59 PM »
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There's been some discussion recently about Rat's statement about seeing the "lights of Portland" and that Cooper jumped before then. If the sky was overcast with two cloud layers, how would that affect the crew's ability to see the city lights? Perhaps the city lights would be bright enough to penetrate the cloud cover?

They actually saw the glow from the lights in the Portland/Vancouver area, not the actual lights themselves.  The airliner was above two cloud layers plus an overcast.  Georger's quaint comments are just Georger's quaint comments. ;)

Georger's quaint comment: is that no discussion of this issue is possible given the current makeup of the CHURCH! Facts are not admissible or relevant. R99 made this a personal issue looking for fame years ago for some reason. R99 apparently thought he would take over the whole Cooper debate by claiming lofty credentials no one else could compete with! It happens in every CHURCH!  ;)   

The issue has moved to DZ and is being discussed there.  New evidence about the topic today: it doesnt take a high credentialed genius to know that! Duhhh!

Do not wait on R99 for any Cooper news. R99 has never been in the news or facts business!  :o

OMG, I have rattled Georger's and Bruce's cages again!  How did I do it this time?

How do you fellows explain away the claims reportedly made by some of the flight crew members that they were flying at 10,000 feet in one of the worst storms that they had ever experienced when Cooper jumped?  Incidentally, there is no data to support that claim.

The 8:00 PM Portland International Sequence report, which is prepared by trained weather personnel and based on actual observations (which some would call facts), states there was an overcast at 5000 feet and two cloud layers below that.

I don't know what was going on at 10,000 feet but human eyes with 20/20 vision or better are not going to be able to see the lights (meaning light bulbs or individual lights) although they may very well see the glow from a large collection of lights such as the Portland/Vancouver area would produce.

By the way, do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?  And while you are at it, why don't you also list your aeronautical qualifications?  That would be educational for the newcomers to this site.

I have been reading a recent book as time permits.  I don't have as much free time as you may think.  I hope to be finished with it shortly and will post a review of it.  But from what I have read to date, neither Georger, Bruce, or Snowmman is going to be happy with my review.  Have you fellows have even read the book?
   
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3234 on: December 17, 2021, 09:05:12 PM »
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  But from what I have read to date, neither Georger, Bruce, or Snowmman is going to be happy with my review.  Have you fellows have even read the book?
 

I watched some TikTok videos that pretty much covered it, as far as I could tell.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2021, 02:57:37 AM by snowmman »
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3235 on: December 18, 2021, 12:58:06 AM »
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?


No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3236 on: December 18, 2021, 01:54:48 PM »
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?


No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.

Bruce, you can't make any progress if you stay at the starting point.  If you want to advance the Cooper investigation then you have to move forward.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3237 on: December 18, 2021, 02:03:02 PM »
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  But from what I have read to date, neither Georger, Bruce, or Snowmman is going to be happy with my review.  Have you fellows have even read the book?
 

I watched some TikTok videos that pretty much covered it, as far as I could tell.

Snowmman, your honesty indicates that you may have some redeeming qualities after all.  Let's hope you see the light at the end of the tunnel. :)
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3238 on: December 18, 2021, 03:03:14 PM »
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?


No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.

Well Bruce if you or anyone else are now pissed off at me for buying Dan Gryder's argument, I really do not care. . The man put together a very solid case compared to most of the others ones I have heard that say some transgender woman did it or some ex jumper.  Gryder's case was well thought out, well presented and he has many things on the side of his argument.  McCoy is the most solid suspect out there.  The FBI agent, Himelbach was a damn  fool, and i hate to say that about any deceased person.  I asked a question that I am sure Mr Kaye will not answer because I am not celebrity enough for him to do so.  IF, the money did go into the water as Gryder states, inside of a parachute or bag, likely no plastic to protect it, could any of it still be intact at the bottom of the River if found after this amount of time?  The bag or chutes you would think could survive in part right?  I am not a scientist.  I need a scientist to answer that question.  The money has never turned up in circulation  Some math Einstein stated before it would have had to show up.  But $20 dollar bills?  So the money is either buried, or spent ages ago unoticed (though someone said that is not possible), or its at the bottom of the river if Mr Gryder's theory is correct and he dropped the money .  It makes sense given the find at Tena Bar.  But McCoy was able to hold on to twice as much on the jump where he was busted.  That is the equivalent of 8 gallons of milk.  40 pounds.  Not easy.  But he did it.  So why would he drop half of it?  Gryder has challenged the storm data. The weather reports.  The FBI looks like the Keystone cops here.  Ill stop for now.  Let the attacks come and respond later. 
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3239 on: December 18, 2021, 04:30:47 PM »
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?


No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.

Well Bruce if you or anyone else are now pissed off at me for buying Dan Gryder's argument, I really do not care. . The man put together a very solid case compared to most of the others ones I have heard that say some transgender woman did it or some ex jumper.  Gryder's case was well thought out, well presented and he has many things on the side of his argument.  McCoy is the most solid suspect out there.  The FBI agent, Himelbach was a damn  fool, and i hate to say that about any deceased person.  I asked a question that I am sure Mr Kaye will not answer because I am not celebrity enough for him to do so.  IF, the money did go into the water as Gryder states, inside of a parachute or bag, likely no plastic to protect it, could any of it still be intact at the bottom of the River if found after this amount of time?  The bag or chutes you would think could survive in part right?  I am not a scientist.  I need a scientist to answer that question.  The money has never turned up in circulation  Some math Einstein stated before it would have had to show up.  But $20 dollar bills?  So the money is either buried, or spent ages ago unoticed (though someone said that is not possible), or its at the bottom of the river if Mr Gryder's theory is correct and he dropped the money .  It makes sense given the find at Tena Bar.  But McCoy was able to hold on to twice as much on the jump where he was busted.  That is the equivalent of 8 gallons of milk.  40 pounds.  Not easy.  But he did it.  So why would he drop half of it?  Gryder has challenged the storm data. The weather reports.  The FBI looks like the Keystone cops here.  Ill stop for now.  Let the attacks come and respond later.

I can't speak for Bruce or anyone else, but I don't think anyone is pissed at you for buying Dan's story. I'm sure you're not alone in that. As far as the money goes, I think McCoys ransom was in larger denominations, so even though it was more money, it weighed less. Bruce can confirm or correct that. As for believing in a particular suspect, I would caution one to look at the reasons a person is not guilty as opposed to the reasons they are guilty. Rule them out. If you can't find reasons to rule them out then perhaps you're on to something. In the case of McCoy, if we are to believe that he was DB Cooper, then we have to believe that a witness that spent several hours with Cooper could not identify him just a few months later. The same for the other witnesses that saw him. That's a big hurdle, in my opinion. We would also have to believe that the elements found on Coopers tie have nothing to do with Cooper himself, another big hurdle.
 
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