Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 437979 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4500 on: June 11, 2022, 06:49:44 PM »
They were given the freedom of the sky, regardless of the airway. I believe Georger mentions bypassing PDX on the west side. they were west of a majority of population. you would have to fly over the ocean to avoid any kind of collateral damage. they were right over Vancouver, Toledo etc. not just Portland. I'm not sold they were that worried about the plane exploding or they would have diverted completely away from population.

Such simple questions to Rat could resolve this. many have spoken with him and fail to clear this up.

As mentioned above, the crew could of plotted the course out in less than a few minutes if they flew as straight as you claim.

I don't believe they mixed up the fighter jets with 305 either as Eric has mentioned. the SAGE tags every plane that is in the sky, 305 was in the air first and tracked prior to the jets.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 10:28:00 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4501 on: June 12, 2022, 12:42:20 PM »
The Portland ATC told the FBI that 305 was east of PDX.

The Troutdale ATC said that 305 was west of PDX.

I'd be curious of the timing of these reports because both are correct.
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Offline Kermit

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4502 on: June 12, 2022, 01:50:52 PM »
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The Portland ATC told the FBI that 305 was east of PDX.

The Troutdale ATC said that 305 was west of PDX.

I'd be curious of the timing of these reports because both are correct.

In 1962 a United Airlines DC 8 mistakingly landed at the Small Troutdale Airport !
Troutdale Airport is about 10 miles East of PDX !
You could imagine the bewilderment of the passengers and crew to realize where this huge Jet had managed to land.
Needless to say it wasn’t a easy task to land on this short runway and then again to take off.
I have landed at Troutdale several times and it’s scary to think about landing a huge Jet with 81 passengers aboard.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4503 on: June 12, 2022, 04:08:27 PM »
305 is east of PDX for less than a minute and on the west side of PDX with zero question by using the sectional map plots.
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4504 on: August 26, 2022, 08:54:55 AM »
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For the record, Flyjack's red line can also be dismissed.  At several points, the airliner is about 3 nautical miles from the centerline of V-23.  Other things being equal, aircraft are expected to stay on the centerline of Victor airways and there is a regulation stating that.  If the flight crew couldn't keep the aircraft on the centerline, then their autopilot certainly could.  Even the simplest wing leveler in a Cessna 150 could do that.

That's not the case in the matter, they were given the sky in order to keep everyone safe. most regulations went out the door with this problem. I believe they are expected to stay within the boundaries, unless in controlled airspace. why have them 8 miles wide?

Unless authorized by ATC, to operate an aircraft within controlled airspace under IFR, pilots must either fly ALONG the centerline when on a Federal airway or, on routes other than Federal airways, along the direct course between NAVAIDs or fixes defining the route

Just because a simple route can be layed out certainly doesn't imply that's what occurred? none of the crew said anything about why they would be looking miles away from where they actually were, or mention how simple they could layout the path within several minutes..

It is certainly true that the airliner crew were told they could make any deviation necessary to V-23 and that ATC would keep other aircraft out of their way.  But that does not explain why they were wandering so far from the V-23 centerline, particularly in the Portland area.

South of Portland, the airliner would almost certainly want to stay on the centerline of V-23 due to concerns with the MOCA (Minimum Obstacle Clearance Altitude) and MCA (Minimum Communications Altitude) among other things.  In some segments of V-23, 10,000 is the minimum altitude that any aircraft could meet those minimums.  Even in the Portland area, the MCA for the Malay Intersection is 9500 feet.

Just staying on the centerline of V-23 does not require a superhuman effort.  If the airliner wanted to bypass Portland with what they thought was a bomb onboard, the west side would be the logical choice.  Even now Georger has admitted that his sources, apparently including FBI agents, were saying 10 years ago that the airliner bypassed Portland on the west side.   

It was reported that the plane remained on autopilot and that kept them on V-23?  Is that incorrect?   That is what they state on some of the shows on the case, done by for instance, National Geographic who are pretty respected.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4505 on: August 26, 2022, 12:21:52 PM »
The autopilot has been a point of contention.

The 302s show that Paul Soderlind believed the plane was on autopilot. Statements by Bill Rataczak decades later indicate that he was hand flying the aircraft until they reached Reno.

The FBI believed Soderlind.

My personal feelings on the autopilot are two-fold. One, it could be a combination of manual flying and autopilot. They may have flown a portion of the route on autopilot and other portions manually. Another possibility is that it was a different mode of autopilot. There is a great explanation of that here:

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Secondly, whether the autopilot was engaged or not is really a moot point. We know the plane flew down Victor 23. Whether they hand flew it or whether it was on autopilot, we know the flight path. Usually, the only people who care about the autopilot are those looking to poke holes in the USAF flight path or some other related agenda.
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Offline JAG

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4506 on: August 26, 2022, 01:43:19 PM »
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The autopilot has been a point of contention.

The 302s show that Paul Soderlind believed the plane was on autopilot. Statements by Bill Rataczak decades later indicate that he was hand flying the aircraft until they reached Reno.

The FBI believed Soderlind.

My personal feelings on the autopilot are two-fold. One, it could be a combination of manual flying and autopilot. They may have flown a portion of the route on autopilot and other portions manually. Another possibility is that it was a different mode of autopilot. There is a great explanation of that here:

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Secondly, whether the autopilot was engaged or not is really a moot point. We know the plane flew down Victor 23. Whether they hand flew it or whether it was on autopilot, we know the flight path. Usually, the only people who care about the autopilot are those looking to poke holes in the USAF flight path or some other related agenda.

I would add that there were some statements made that if the plane was on auto pilot, that the pilots would not be able to feel hijacker on the air stairs or notice a change in elevation/trim.  So I think that adds a little more to this issue, we all know about the reported oscillations and pressure bump, but I also recall that it was reported by one of the pilots that they noticed a dip or raising of the nose ?  So if that is the case, how could they have felt it if they were on auto pilot would be the question. Not sure if I am mixing some things up that are mutually exclusive, but that is how I am digesting it for the moment.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4507 on: August 26, 2022, 02:07:56 PM »
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The autopilot has been a point of contention.

The 302s show that Paul Soderlind believed the plane was on autopilot. Statements by Bill Rataczak decades later indicate that he was hand flying the aircraft until they reached Reno.

The FBI believed Soderlind.

My personal feelings on the autopilot are two-fold. One, it could be a combination of manual flying and autopilot. They may have flown a portion of the route on autopilot and other portions manually. Another possibility is that it was a different mode of autopilot. There is a great explanation of that here:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Secondly, whether the autopilot was engaged or not is really a moot point. We know the plane flew down Victor 23. Whether they hand flew it or whether it was on autopilot, we know the flight path. Usually, the only people who care about the autopilot are those looking to poke holes in the USAF flight path or some other related agenda.

I would add that there were some statements made that if the plane was on auto pilot, that the pilots would not be able to feel hijacker on the air stairs or notice a change in elevation/trim.  So I think that adds a little more to this issue, we all know about the reported oscillations and pressure bump, but I also recall that it was reported by one of the pilots that they noticed a dip or raising of the nose ?  So if that is the case, how could they have felt it if they were on auto pilot would be the question. Not sure if I am mixing some things up that are mutually exclusive, but that is how I am digesting it for the moment.
It also states in the 302s that should the plane be on autopilot, then Soderlind should be able to identify "bobs" on the flight data recorder indicating when the autopilot activated corrections. Later, Soderlind did find a "little bob" at 8:09. Would this "little bob" have occured if the plane was being hand flown? I can't say.

The point is that there is evidence existing both ways, and really why does it matter? The plane went from Seattle to Reno via Victor 23. Does it matter if it was on autopilot or not?
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Offline JAG

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4508 on: August 26, 2022, 03:02:36 PM »
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The autopilot has been a point of contention.

The 302s show that Paul Soderlind believed the plane was on autopilot. Statements by Bill Rataczak decades later indicate that he was hand flying the aircraft until they reached Reno.

The FBI believed Soderlind.

My personal feelings on the autopilot are two-fold. One, it could be a combination of manual flying and autopilot. They may have flown a portion of the route on autopilot and other portions manually. Another possibility is that it was a different mode of autopilot. There is a great explanation of that here:

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Secondly, whether the autopilot was engaged or not is really a moot point. We know the plane flew down Victor 23. Whether they hand flew it or whether it was on autopilot, we know the flight path. Usually, the only people who care about the autopilot are those looking to poke holes in the USAF flight path or some other related agenda.

I would add that there were some statements made that if the plane was on auto pilot, that the pilots would not be able to feel hijacker on the air stairs or notice a change in elevation/trim.  So I think that adds a little more to this issue, we all know about the reported oscillations and pressure bump, but I also recall that it was reported by one of the pilots that they noticed a dip or raising of the nose ?  So if that is the case, how could they have felt it if they were on auto pilot would be the question. Not sure if I am mixing some things up that are mutually exclusive, but that is how I am digesting it for the moment.
It also states in the 302s that should the plane be on autopilot, then Soderlind should be able to identify "bobs" on the flight data recorder indicating when the autopilot activated corrections. Later, Soderlind did find a "little bob" at 8:09. Would this "little bob" have occured if the plane was being hand flown? I can't say.

The point is that there is evidence existing both ways, and really why does it matter? The plane went from Seattle to Reno via Victor 23. Does it matter if it was on autopilot or not?

I think it would matter to the extent that it could impact how any investigator would interpret observations from the pilot(s).  If it is believed that when on auto pilot, that the pilots wouldn't be able to feel the hijacker on the stairs (pushing down, jumping or going down and coming back up), then they may not give credence to the pilot saying that they felt the plane move up or down etc. and they may dismiss that observation. Conversely, if not on auto pilot, then observations by the pilot(s) would carry more weight in trying to determine if those observations provide clues to when and where he exited the plane.   At least, that's how I am viewing it....good thought "vector" to explore :-)
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4509 on: November 13, 2022, 04:05:53 PM »

SOME COMMENTS ON DR. EDWARDS BLOG POST OF NOVEMBER 13, 2022:

1.  Airliners have a "minimum equipment list" that must be operational before they depart on a commercial flight.  In the 1971 time frame, it appears that NWA had to have at least two operational radio transceivers for voice communications.  These transceivers would be wired to be completely independent of each other so that if one failed for some reason the other would still be operational.  They would have different power sources and different antenna systems.  Consequently, the two transceivers could both transmit and receive at the same time.  In the case of NWA 305, it appears that one transceiver was used for communicating with air traffic control, and the other transceiver was used for communicating with the ARINC ground stations.

Several years ago, Fred Poynter of the WSHM and I were informed by ARINC personnel that a typical large airliner today has as many as five transceivers.

2.  Poynter's group at the WSHM did a detailed analysis of the ARINC teletype transcripts that the George Harrison family loaned to them and they concluded that there were missing teletype transcripts.   And if I remember correctly, the existing transcripts indicated that the phone patch with NWA was established through the ARINC system before the airliner even landed in Seattle at about 5:30 PM PST.  Several weeks ago, I suggested that Chaucer get a copy of the WSHM analysis from them but he has apparently not done so.

Further, it appears that teletype transcripts were also routinely made of the voice transmissions over the ARINC system.  And according to Chaucer, Carr apparently told him about some of these transcripts that have not been released.

3.  With several decades of experience in the military and as an Aeronautical Engineer in the DOD, I can categorically state that the dashed lines in the Seattle ATC transcripts mean that sections of those transcripts have been redacted.  This is irrefutable despite any hopes to the contrary.

 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4510 on: November 14, 2022, 01:14:23 AM »
Robert,
Please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say. Let me be clear:

In my conversation with Larry Carr, he told me that there exists a full transcription of radio communications between Flight 305 and NWA Flight Operations in Minneapolis. These radio comms were made over the ARINC system, but are NOT teletype transcriptions. Further, he made NO reference to any redactions or missing parts of any comms. Rather, he simply said that this full transcription had not yet been released through the FBI Vault. There’s nothing spooky or nefarious going on, I assure you.

I have attached the one and only example of this full transcription that Carr is talking about that exists in the 302s. I have also attached the accompanying ARINC teletype of this same communication. You can see how a full transcription would be much more valuable in terms of information than the very abbreviated teletype facsimile.


« Last Edit: November 14, 2022, 01:15:02 AM by Chaucer »
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4511 on: November 14, 2022, 12:51:07 PM »
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Robert,
Please do not put words in my mouth that I did not say. Let me be clear:

In my conversation with Larry Carr, he told me that there exists a full transcription of radio communications between Flight 305 and NWA Flight Operations in Minneapolis. These radio comms were made over the ARINC system, but are NOT teletype transcriptions. Further, he made NO reference to any redactions or missing parts of any comms. Rather, he simply said that this full transcription had not yet been released through the FBI Vault. There’s nothing spooky or nefarious going on, I assure you.

I have attached the one and only example of this full transcription that Carr is talking about that exists in the 302s. I have also attached the accompanying ARINC teletype of this same communication. You can see how a full transcription would be much more valuable in terms of information than the very abbreviated teletype facsimile.




Chaucer, we apparently agree that complete copies of the ARINC and Seattle ATC transcripts would be most helpful.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4512 on: November 14, 2022, 02:18:27 PM »
I agree 100%.

In my opinion, they are the Rosetta Stone of the entire case.
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