DB COOPER
General Category => DB Cooper => Topic started by: Shutter on April 09, 2014, 07:03:34 AM
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Feel free to ask any questions about the case.
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General Question
What time did DB jump from the airplane? The FBI thinks it was about 8:12 pm and when we talked with Ralph Hatley, he thought it was about 8:15 pm. That later time would have put DB closer to the Columbia river. Did DB splash in the Columbia? The body should have shown up by now so I don't think he splashed and Sheridan is still living in California. If we could only get him to talk about it!
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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General Question
What time did DB jump from the airplane? The FBI thinks it was about 8:12 pm and when we talked with Ralph Hatley, he thought it was about 8:15 pm. That later time would have put DB closer to the Columbia river. Did DB splash in the Columbia? The body should have shown up by now so I don't think he splashed and Sheridan is still living in California. If we could only get him to talk about it!
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
The 8:15 PM time is probably the most accurate with the present information. The papers from the NWA people at Seattle indicate that the voice transmission of the "23 DME miles south of Portland (referring to what is now the Battleground VORTAC)" was at 8:18 PM and not the 8:22 PM time hack on the teletype version that went through the ARINC system.
Perhaps some more accurate information will become available one of these days.
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Idea for questions....
Lets try this. Tom Kaye is a member here. he's not a regular poster but I'm sure we could set up a time for several of you to be here to ask him any questions you might want to ask? Brian Ingram is also a member here, but only posted once. I've hesitated not wanting to breach his privacy, but would like to hear from him as well. I'm sure we can set something up with Tom without any problems.
Thought :-\
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Idea for questions....
Lets try this. Tom Kaye is a member here. he's not a regular poster but I'm sure we could set up a time for several of you to be here to ask him any questions you might want to ask? Brian Ingram is also a member here, but only posted once. I've hesitated not wanting to breach his privacy, but would like to hear from him as well. I'm sure we can set something up with Tom without any problems.
Thought :-\
I would definitely have questions for Kaye. I'll go through his website and see if I can come up with a list.
Here's one of my major boggles: How did Cooper get to the airport in first place? The FBI checked the parking lot, interviewed cab drivers and checked with bus and train people. If Cooper stashed a car away, why was he trying to jump over Seattle and not Portland? If someone dropped him off, that person should have come forward years ago. If he lived in Portland, why was he trying to get out of the plane right away. How thorough was the FBI in investigating the busses/trains/cabbies angle? Did Cooper fly in earlier in the day or the day before? Did the FBI look at local hotels?
Another on of my big problems is the apparent lack of practical experiments. I know a few DZ guys did Cooper-like jumps with various configurations, but has anyone tried to do a jump with 1) a reserve parachute with no D rings to attach it 2) while holding a suitcase 3) testing how much paracord it would take actually secure the money. Etc. Etc.
[I would even say I find the Tina bar find boring, Carr's belief a 'hydrologist' can help him determine where Cooper landed is almost laughable].
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Idea for questions....
Lets try this. Tom Kaye is a member here. he's not a regular poster but I'm sure we could set up a time for several of you to be here to ask him any questions you might want to ask? Brian Ingram is also a member here, but only posted once. I've hesitated not wanting to breach his privacy, but would like to hear from him as well. I'm sure we can set something up with Tom without any problems.
Thought :-\
This forum is getting spread out into so many sub-categories it's become hard to follow ... things that could well be happening under existing categories. Pretty soon we will have sub sections within sub categories etc. ... all of which fitted under some general category, in the first place.
Since Tom will not post here the guy needs to address Tom on his own territory which is Tom's website.
The guy also needs to avail himself of the search function at Dropzpone for prior posts on specific topics otherwise we will be repeating the entire history of the world here! (each under a new-new sub category under a previous sub-category, under a previous general heading .... )
Im worn out just typing it all@!
And he still has not explained why he wants an "ectro-chemist"? One from Case, MIT. Cal-Tech, Dow, or Baxter Chemical????? >:(
Hopefully the guy can communicate with Tom and Blevins about elctro-chemistry of ??? and come back here and share what they said ... for the rest of us to ponder over ? In a new sub category?
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The guy also needs to avail himself of the search function at Dropzpone for prior posts on specific topics otherwise we will be repeating the entire history of the world here! (each under a new-new sub category under a previous sub-category, under a previous general heading .... )
With all due respect...
If you search "Kaye" on the DZ forum, you get some fifty pages of search results. It's now useless even as a repository of knowledge. If someone had been collecting information in real time, and had published an indexed book of just the "good" information, I would read that. I spent months reading through that forum, and it's just not worth the effort. You can't find what you need. With Blevins and Jo Weber producing about half the content, it's... just not fair to tell people "read the DZ forum." It's torture.
The real resources are the people who were active in that forum.
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The guy also needs to avail himself of the search function at Dropzpone for prior posts on specific topics otherwise we will be repeating the entire history of the world here! (each under a new-new sub category under a previous sub-category, under a previous general heading .... )
With all due respect...
If you search "Kaye" on the DZ forum, you get some fifty pages of search results. It's now useless even as a repository of knowledge. If someone had been collecting information in real time, and had published an indexed book of just the "good" information, I would read that. I spent months reading through that forum, and it's just not worth the effort. You can't find what you need. With Blevins and Jo Weber producing about half the content, it's... just not fair to tell people "read the DZ forum." It's torture.
The real resources are the people who were active in that forum.
I can agree with that. Georger is also right in spreading the threads out. I will contact Tom and ask him to stop by. PM me with any questions you have and I'll compile them into a questionnaire for him to respond too. I'll post it under the Tina bar thread.
Fair :-\
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?
Thoughts?
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?
Thoughts?
Most, but not all, of my questions could be put into categories. However, I think a case can be made for having a Q&A thread like this so people can go to one place to seek answers to specific questions without changing the trajectories of existing threads. It's something I noticed on DZ, there would be a few pages of good information, and it would get derailed by something like a question or inane comment and the discussion stops and devolves to meaninglessness.
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And really, if I want to be lectured about how "we already covered that question eight years ago", I want it to be in the kiddie pool, not a major thread.
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?
Thoughts?
Most, but not all, of my questions could be put into categories. However, I think a case can be made for having a Q&A thread like this so people can go to one place to seek answers to specific questions without changing the trajectories of existing threads. It's something I noticed on DZ, there would be a few pages of good information, and it would get derailed by something like a question or inane comment and the discussion stops and devolves to meaninglessness.
Agreed again, I don't want that happening here. I want to take advantage of the "Fanfics" you see at the top of the forum, or on the menu bar. I haven't figured it out as of yet, but it's a good way to store basic facts, and stories about the case that will not get lost in the threads.
DZ has had the problem with personal attacks going back into the original locked thread. it's now nothing but discussion about this forum, or what one poster thinks about his solid case of a suspect being Cooper. It's controlled by basically by two posters. the well has basically dried up..... 8)
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I've said my peace. I trust in Shutter.
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So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:
Today ties aren't universal. Most people who wear ties regularly, knot them properly. I know of nobody who wears ties and mixes knotted and clip-on ties. The only people I know who wear clip-on ties are kids working as bus boys in restaurants.
When ties were more universal, did people regularly buy both for convenience?
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So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:
Today ties aren't universal. Most people who wear ties regularly, knot them properly. I know of nobody who wears ties and mixes knotted and clip-on ties. The only people I know who wear clip-on ties are kids working as bus boys in restaurants.
When ties were more universal, did people regularly buy both for convenience?
Common in the late 60's and to this day, bartenders and servers working in the more prestigious restaurants/nightclubs, law enforcement and probation officers wore clip on ties. They sell them at the uniform shop that supply uniforms to the St. Paul police and Ramsey County Sheriff's deputies.
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So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:
Actually it could go under "Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case"
I believe the tie is a clue, and the tie is also evidence. they are in harmony together :-*
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:-[
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Technically, everything is a clue...
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So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:
Today ties aren't universal. Most people who wear ties regularly, knot them properly. I know of nobody who wears ties and mixes knotted and clip-on ties. The only people I know who wear clip-on ties are kids working as bus boys in restaurants.
When ties were more universal, did people regularly buy both for convenience?
... and with that you have just nailed one of the reasons Himmelsbach thought/suggested... "he might be a food service worker". That along with Flo's comment he had olive skin and looked Latin to me.
I guess one of the questions is how much can you read into a clip on tie? Kids in highschool bands used to wear clip on ties. People in ROTC. Hell even FBI agents! :) :) :) :) :) :) :) My grandma wore one once - after opening grandpa's Christmas present by mistake!
:)
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"he might be a food service worker".
Very polite, and tipped well too!!! ;D
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The tie has latent evidence like titanium, stuff from medication packing, match particles and other metals. So the tie didn't belong to a busboy who was milling pure titanium in the late 1960's. The tie's original owner wasn't a bartender. I don't think the tie picked up spiral titanium particles sitting in evidence. I guess it depends on how much faith you have in Tom Kaye, but his analysis is important. If he's right about the scarcity of pure titanium, then the tie has a big story to tell, not a small one.
To me, Kaye's evidence makes sense. If the guy was working in a shop machining parts from pure titanium, the owner would want a clip-on tie that wouldn't kill him if it got caught in a lathe.
If Cooper bought the tie at an estate sale, that still puts Cooper in one of a few regions where they had shops likes this.
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You might want to swing over to the Tina Bar thread....Tom is here now... ;D
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:(
Now I have to read the Citizen Sleuths website again before I can go to bed.
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I guess something came up. he left the building :(
I'm sure he will return to answer some questions for us....hang in there ;D
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So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:
Today ties aren't universal. Most people who wear ties regularly, knot them properly. I know of nobody who wears ties and mixes knotted and clip-on ties. The only people I know who wear clip-on ties are kids working as bus boys in restaurants.
When ties were more universal, did people regularly buy both for convenience?
The answer to your last question is "no". In the 1960s, clip-on ties could be bought in drug stores for two dollars or less. Note: I AM aware that Cooper's tie has been identified as a JC Penny product which is relatively upscale for such a thing.
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The tie has latent evidence like titanium, stuff from medication packing, match particles and other metals. So the tie didn't belong to a busboy who was milling pure titanium in the late 1960's. The tie's original owner wasn't a bartender. I don't think the tie picked up spiral titanium particles sitting in evidence. I guess it depends on how much faith you have in Tom Kaye, but his analysis is important. If he's right about the scarcity of pure titanium, then the tie has a big story to tell, not a small one.
To me, Kaye's evidence makes sense. If the guy was working in a shop machining parts from pure titanium, the owner would want a clip-on tie that wouldn't kill him if it got caught in a lathe.
If Cooper bought the tie at an estate sale, that still puts Cooper in one of a few regions where they had shops likes this.
For ever picture you can produce of someone in a machine shop wearing a clip-on tie, Tom Kaye can produce a picture of a machine shop employee wearing a fully knotted tie. So the machine shop illustration is basically a wash.
However, I can definitely understand why a policeman would wear one since it would be one less thing that the bad guys could grab during a fight. I imagine that most field policewomen wear their hair in a bun for the same reason.
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For ever picture you can produce of someone in a machine shop wearing a clip-on tie, Tom Kaye can produce a picture of a machine shop employee wearing a fully knotted tie. So the machine shop illustration is basically a wash.
Just a simple question that will hopefully inspire conversation with differing opinions: Were would the Cooper suspect have most likely built the briefcase bomb? His workshop at his place of employment, or his apartment or motel room?
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Managing this site:
Some thoughts.
As this forum spreads out like the Platte River (an inch deep and a mile wide), it might behoove us to have one line of commentary that can be flagged as to its central theme. That way, when somebody wants to see all the goodies on titanium they can type that into a search engine and get the posts.
Shut-Man, can this sucker do dat?
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I've worn a tie 3 times in the last month (job interviews, been out of work since September). Before that, I can count on one hand the number of times I have worn a tie in the ten years previous. I can't even tie one. Cooper may have been someone like me and the clip on, needed for him to blend in, was simply the easier choice.
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For ever picture you can produce of someone in a machine shop wearing a clip-on tie, Tom Kaye can produce a picture of a machine shop employee wearing a fully knotted tie. So the machine shop illustration is basically a wash.
Just a simple question that will hopefully inspire conversation with differing opinions: Were would the Cooper suspect have most likely built the briefcase bomb? His workshop at his place of employment, or his apartment or motel room?
If it can be done without getting this list placed on a terrorist watch list, just exactly what is involved in building a bomb such as Cooper claimed he had? The only thing I remember being described by the people who actually saw it is that there was a battery, what was probably road flares, and a lot of wires with two of them having an exposed end.
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For ever picture you can produce of someone in a machine shop wearing a clip-on tie, Tom Kaye can produce a picture of a machine shop employee wearing a fully knotted tie. So the machine shop illustration is basically a wash.
Just a simple question that will hopefully inspire conversation with differing opinions: Were would the Cooper suspect have most likely built the briefcase bomb? His workshop at his place of employment, or his apartment or motel room?
If it can be done without getting this list placed on a terrorist watch list, just exactly what is involved in building a bomb such as Cooper claimed he had? The only thing I remember being described by the people who actually saw it is that there was a battery, what was probably road flares, and a lot of wires with two of them having an exposed end.
By all accounts it was the illusion of a bomb - not a bomb. Road flares vs. dynamite. Of course it's all conjecture however flares can be seen in most weather conditions from a distance. Seems like a simple formula to me!
To someone with parachuting experience and a good grasp of where he is, based on eyes looking for lights, the only real hazard is the geography below. Once again it's a simple formula with the advantage to Cooper vs. those trying to find him somewhere wherever 'somewhere' is in the last five or fifteen minutes at 200 mph!
The advantage is definitely on Cooper's side.
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For ever picture you can produce of someone in a machine shop wearing a clip-on tie, Tom Kaye can produce a picture of a machine shop employee wearing a fully knotted tie. So the machine shop illustration is basically a wash.
Just a simple question that will hopefully inspire conversation with differing opinions: Were would the Cooper suspect have most likely built the briefcase bomb? His workshop at his place of employment, or his apartment or motel room?
If it can be done without getting this list placed on a terrorist watch list, just exactly what is involved in building a bomb such as Cooper claimed he had? The only thing I remember being described by the people who actually saw it is that there was a battery, what was probably road flares, and a lot of wires with two of them having an exposed end.
I would guess he had a electronic detonator, it could only be that if it was attached to a battery. connecting the final wire ran in a series would complete the circuit setting off the bomb. the problem I see is most dynamite is brown. it's mainly red in cartoons, and movies. there is red dynamite, but I don't think he had a real boomer...
The best test now would be showing Florence a photo of a stick of dynamite, and one road flare and see which she picks?
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For ever picture you can produce of someone in a machine shop wearing a clip-on tie, Tom Kaye can produce a picture of a machine shop employee wearing a fully knotted tie. So the machine shop illustration is basically a wash.
Just a simple question that will hopefully inspire conversation with differing opinions: Were would the Cooper suspect have most likely built the briefcase bomb? His workshop at his place of employment, or his apartment or motel room?
If it can be done without getting this list placed on a terrorist watch list, just exactly what is involved in building a bomb such as Cooper claimed he had? The only thing I remember being described by the people who actually saw it is that there was a battery, what was probably road flares, and a lot of wires with two of them having an exposed end.
I would guess he had a electronic detonator, it could only be that if it was attached to a battery. connecting the final wire ran in a series would complete the circuit setting off the bomb. the problem I see is most dynamite is brown. it's mainly red in cartoons, and movies. there is red dynamite, but I don't think he had a real boomer...
The best test now would be showing Florence a photo of a stick of dynamite, and one road flare and see which she picks?
No one reported seeing anything that could have been a detonator or even a fuse. But Tina did report that Cooper was very careless in how he handled those two wires with exposed ends. Supposedly, if those wires had touched the "bomb" would have exploded.
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Most detonators go inside the dynamite. the two wires would complete the circuit as mentioned, and boom, if it was real.
The old school way was with the plunger box that sent an electrical charge to the dynamite.....
Perhaps the proper term would be blasting caps.
Here you can hardly see the blasting cap. I doubt anyone would have noticed if it had one.... (note the color of the dynamite)
It's actually a clock. they used the same print paper for dynamite, and wood dowels.
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The blasting caps need an electrical charge to explode, it's small, but it sets off the dynamite. you would wire the battery to the the charge just like hooking up your car battery, but you can't complete the circuit, so you use a switch, or break the circuit, or as many have seen they used a plunger that created electricity while pushing down on the plunger.
It's possible it was real if Cooper kept putting his hands inside the briefcase as Mitchell has claimed. he might have been worried about something going wrong?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Dynamite-5.svg/220px-Dynamite-5.svg.png)
A) Sawdust (or any other type of absorbent material) soaked in nitroglycerin.
B) Protective coating surrounding the explosive material.
C) Blasting cap.
D) Electrical cable (or fuse) connected to the blasting cap.
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The blasting caps need an electrical charge to explode, it's small, but it sets off the dynamite. you would wire the battery to the the charge just like hooking up your car battery, but you can't complete the circuit, so you use a switch, or break the circuit, or as many have seen they used a plunger that created electricity while pushing down on the plunger.
It's possible it was real if Cooper kept putting his hands inside the briefcase as Mitchell has claimed. he might have been worried about something going wrong?
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Dynamite-5.svg/220px-Dynamite-5.svg.png)
A) Sawdust (or any other type of absorbent material) soaked in nitroglycerin.
B) Protective coating surrounding the explosive material.
C) Blasting cap.
D) Electrical cable (or fuse) connected to the blasting cap.
Shutter, is this the way it was done in 1971?
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Shutter, is this the way it was done in 1971?
I don't think much has changed over the years it's a pretty basic function allowing little room for improvement much like a "Black Cat" firecracker. "If it's not broke, don't fix it" ?
They have changed the way it's detonated by using detonator cord as a high speed fuse detonating at 4 miles a second for multiple charges.
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Back in the mid 90s I had a job for a few months with an explosive company and worked with dynamite. Based on that experience, I've always thought Coopers bomb was probably a fake.
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Back in the mid 90s I had a job for a few months with an explosive company and worked with dynamite. Based on that experience, I've always thought Coopers bomb was probably a fake.
Would a dog trained to detect explosives 'bark' at the presence of road flares?
Were explosives-dogs taken on board at Reno? (I believe they were). How did they react? (And why isn;t that in Geoff Gray's book?)
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The dogs were busy eating the crew's dinner up in First Class, according to Rataczak.
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The dogs were busy eating the crew's dinner up in First Class, according to Rataczak.
That's what Ive been told too!
I'm guessing explosives dogs would 'signal' at the presence of road flares, but it's just a guess ...
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Back in the mid 90s I had a job for a few months with an explosive company and worked with dynamite. Based on that experience, I've always thought Coopers bomb was probably a fake.
Would a dog trained to detect explosives 'bark' at the presence of road flares?
Were explosives-dogs taken on board at Reno? (I believe they were). How did they react? (And why isn;t that in Geoff Gray's book?)
I think the bomb would still have to be on the plane for the dogs to sniff one out. I don't know what's in road flares....
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Back in the mid 90s I had a job for a few months with an explosive company and worked with dynamite. Based on that experience, I've always thought Coopers bomb was probably a fake.
Would a dog trained to detect explosives 'bark' at the presence of road flares?
Were explosives-dogs taken on board at Reno? (I believe they were). How did they react? (And why isn;t that in Geoff Gray's book?)
I think the bomb would still have to be on the plane for the dogs to sniff one out. I don't know what's in road flares....
I don't know what is in road flares either, but whatever it was obviously took second place to the crew's lunch which was probably roast beef sandwiches (with ham being another good possibility).
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I think Bill said it was tacos. I'll have to check my notes....
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I think Bill said it was tacos. I'll have to check my notes....
NWA serving tacos in Seattle in 1971? Not likely. But maybe there just happened to be a tacos franchise close to the NWA gates. ;)
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Here's another round of questions. I accept Cooper was inspired by the failed Paul Cini hijacking and was able to engineer his heist in a relatively short period of time (11 days) using information he already had. So, he could easily put on a parachute harness before the Cini hijacking. He had to be familiar with air travel around SeaTac, and might have been a frequent flyer into the area. I also think he might have been a regular Northwest passenger. He would have flown an airline he was most comfortable with, as I believe he would have made many decisions based on personal comfort (which is why I believe he was wearing his typical wardrobe for the flight).
But what kind of piloting experience could he have had? When asked about flap settings, he said fifteen degrees. I'm not a pilot, so I had to look it up, flaps start creating more drag than lift at 10 degrees. Did Cooper guess at "15 degrees" because he knew this fact? Could he have learned the flap settings on a 727 without working at Boeing? Did he revert to knowledge from his own piloting lessons? Are there common contemporary private aircraft with similar flap settings? Same deal with having the landing gear down, he would have to have some knowledge of aeronautics before the Cini hijacking. What is the minimum amount of experience Cooper could have had based on these facts?
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Is it safe to assume there was no video recording inside or outside the terminal at SeaTac ?
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Here's another round of questions. I accept Cooper was inspired by the failed Paul Cini hijacking and was able to engineer his heist in a relatively short period of time (11 days) using information he already had. So, he could easily put on a parachute harness before the Cini hijacking. He had to be familiar with air travel around SeaTac, and might have been a frequent flyer into the area. I also think he might have been a regular Northwest passenger. He would have flown an airline he was most comfortable with, as I believe he would have made many decisions based on personal comfort (which is why I believe he was wearing his typical wardrobe for the flight).
But what kind of piloting experience could he have had? When asked about flap settings, he said fifteen degrees. I'm not a pilot, so I had to look it up, flaps start creating more drag than lift at 10 degrees. Did Cooper guess at "15 degrees" because he knew this fact? Could he have learned the flap settings on a 727 without working at Boeing? Did he revert to knowledge from his own piloting lessons? Are there common contemporary private aircraft with similar flap settings? Same deal with having the landing gear down, he would have to have some knowledge of aeronautics before the Cini hijacking. What is the minimum amount of experience Cooper could have had based on these facts?
Cooper would need information specific to the 727 and the fact that the rear stairs could be lowered in flight was not widely known. The CIA used 727s in Southeast Asia and was probably the reason that the stairs were capable of being lowered in flight. There is no reason to believe that Cooper was a pilot although he appears to have had some experience as a crew member, but he did have specific information about the 727 capabilities including lowering the stairs in flight. Consequently, it has been thought by a number of people (including myself) that Cooper spent some time in Southeast Asia and was involved in 727 operations there.
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Not be rude, Andrade, but the bigger question is why are you asking the question on flaps? The circumstances of the flap setting have been widely discussed, and the implications from asking for Flaps 15 are very important.
The 727 is the only Boeing product with a pre-determined flap setting of 15 degrees. Rataczak told me he was very impressed with Cooper when he heard the flap setting request. Coupled with all the other demands, R. told me that he knew they were dealing with a very smart guy.
Further, Rataczak acknowledged that Cooper knew more about the 727 than the crew.
Also, why do you accept that Cooper was inspired by Paul Cini? Why do you think Paul chose a DC-8 and not a 727? Why do you think Paul was so indecisive during the skyjacking?
There is a wealth of information on these subject at the Mountain News.
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I thought I read somewhere that the CIA link was a dead end. And also, that the Boeing link was investigated and ended up being a dead end. Ckret on DZ maybe?
Isn't it possible he got lucky with the stairs? It might not even be dumb luck, why would you design a lock for those stairs when only an idiot would try to use them during a flight?
Bruce: I accept that Cooper probably had some source of knowledge on the 727. As mentioned earlier, planning something like this in eleven days would require a lot of foreknowledge since it would take a long time for a layman to get all this information, or engineer it. I'm playing around. Devil's advocate; whatever. What I was really interested in was finding out if other aircraft had a 15 degree flap setting. As Cooper guys, we all ask the same questions, analyze the same fifteen data points, and circle around Tina's bar like it's Prometheus offering fire. [This is the reason I like having a conjecture/dumb question thread, it offers a rational place to throw stuff like this out there.]
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Ok, Andrade. I see your point.
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Isn't it possible he got lucky with the stairs? It might not even be dumb luck, why would you design a lock for those stairs when only an idiot would try to use them during a flight?
Nevertheless, people have opened airliner doors in flight and committed suicide by jumping from the aircraft. And remember that the 727 was the only airliner flying in 1971 where the aft stairs could be lowered to some extent in flight. All the other designs with aft stairs had locks on them.
There is nothing magic about a 15 degree flap setting in general and I'll bet more than one Boeing design has used that setting. With the advent of relatively complicated leading edge devices, such as Krueger flaps and moveable slats, the designers needed to coordinate those movements with the trailing edge flaps. Thus the use of "Ident positions" for the flap lever rather than a setting based solely on the deflection of the trailing edge flaps. A given "Ident position" determines the settings for both the leading and trailing edge devices.
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So, general conclusion: There's too much dumb luck involved if he doesn't have that information.
It looks like the makings of another Cooper paradox: Cooper had knowledge he could only get from a few places, yet investigation of those leads turned up nothing.
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Are there any good books or documentaries about the clandestine 727 airdrops? Or the supersonic air transport program that was cancelled just before Cooper's hijacking?
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So, general conclusion: There's too much dumb luck involved if he doesn't have that information.
It looks like the makings of another Cooper paradox: Cooper had knowledge he could only get from a few places, yet investigation of those leads turned up nothing.
By the same logic everyone who did "Graphic Arts" in caves must have had (had to have had) training from the Chicago Art Institute! ? Things like that can't happen by accident. CAI is the only place you could get such training at the time.
I read it in The Dictionary of Occupational Titles.
And not to get too fussy about this, what was the last flap setting he actually asked for just prior to bailing. It wasn't 15 degrees! In fact sir, give us "all" of the flap settings he ordered up .. in the actual order he ordered them up! Tell is the status of things at each flap setting he ordered up. I mean let's consider all of the settings he actually ordered up and the circumstances? Don't let a few facts stand in your way! ;D
;)
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Are there any good books or documentaries about the clandestine 727 airdrops? Or the supersonic air transport program that was cancelled just before Cooper's hijacking?
Here is a video from one of the past DZ posters. It is on the Youtube channel DBCooperXFiles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrqdmXxBZjI
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].
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Possibly the guy who removed the stairs for the military during those jumps? they were removed and sheet metal was put over the permanent steps.
Here is some more info
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-cia-proved-that-a-boeing-727-can-perform-air-drops-1566155708
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].
Cooper seems to have extensive knowledge about flaps, airspeed, etc., but doesn't know how what he asks for affects fuel consumption and the range of the aircraft? He seems informed in some areas and ignorant in others. Just like his knowledge of the airstairs. He seems to know they can be deployed during flight, yet doesn't seem to know how to open them. Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].
A bit of experience flying as a loadmaster, flight engineer, etc., would provide most of the information. Inspecting and putting on a parachute and jumping with one during an emergency doesn't require more than about 5 to 10 minutes of instruction at most. The information specific to the 727 could have been obtained by acting as a crew member on one operating in Southeast Asia or even by talking to someone who was familiar with the 727 operations there. But Cooper knew the aft stairs on the 727 could be lowered in flight and he double checked with the ticket agent in Portland that the aircraft for his flight was a 727.
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].
Cooper seems to have extensive knowledge about flaps, airspeed, etc., but doesn't know how what he asks for affects fuel consumption and the range of the aircraft? He seems informed in some areas and ignorant in others. Just like his knowledge of the airstairs. He seems to know they can be deployed during flight, yet doesn't seem to know how to open them. Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?
Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?
That's how I have looked at it. also, he never bothered, or cared how the plane got to Mexico, no flight updates, altitudes, direction, nothing. this could point to wanting out of the plane quickly, or not enough knowledge such as McCoy had who was extremely accurate with his landing. his background was known, and extensive. we can only speculate on Cooper....
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].
Cooper seems to have extensive knowledge about flaps, airspeed, etc., but doesn't know how what he asks for affects fuel consumption and the range of the aircraft? He seems informed in some areas and ignorant in others. Just like his knowledge of the airstairs. He seems to know they can be deployed during flight, yet doesn't seem to know how to open them. Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?
Not likely to be from study since the program to demonstrate jumping and dropping things from the aft stairs of the 727 was done for a CIA front organization. And CIA organizations do not generally like to have their activities publicized. On the evening of the hijacking, it took NWA some time to locate any people at Boeing who had knowledge of lowering the stairs in flight. That program was simply not common knowledge either at Boeing or any commercial airline.
On Cooper having difficulty lowering the stairs, even after Tina had told him how to do it, the controls for the stairs may have been different than any he had seen before, even assuming he had seen some such controls previously.
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].
Cooper seems to have extensive knowledge about flaps, airspeed, etc., but doesn't know how what he asks for affects fuel consumption and the range of the aircraft? He seems informed in some areas and ignorant in others. Just like his knowledge of the airstairs. He seems to know they can be deployed during flight, yet doesn't seem to know how to open them. Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?
Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?
That's how I have looked at it. also, he never bothered, or cared how the plane got to Mexico, no flight updates, altitudes, direction, nothing. this could point to wanting out of the plane quickly, or not enough knowledge such as McCoy had who was extremely accurate with his landing. his background was known, and extensive. we can only speculate on Cooper....
Shutter is correct that Cooper apparently wanted to jump soon after take off. After jumping, the airliner was not something that he cared about. Whatever happened to the airliner was their tough luck.
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I'd be more than happy to believe Cooper back-engineered the jump without a priori knowledge of the 727, (in fact, I would find that preferable) but I'd need evidence. Where could a laymen get information about the 727 stairs not having locking mechanisms when stairs on other aircraft had them? Where could a laymen get knowledge about the flight configuration (gears down, flaps at 15, unpressurized cabin)? Where could a laymen without jump experience learn the basics of parachuting (checking packing cards, easily strapping into a harness) without going to a skydiving school and asking a bunch of suspicious questions? [I would think any Cooper suspect who walked into a skydiving school, asked a bunch of questions, then disappeared, would have been reported to the FBI after the jump].
Cooper seems to have extensive knowledge about flaps, airspeed, etc., but doesn't know how what he asks for affects fuel consumption and the range of the aircraft? He seems informed in some areas and ignorant in others. Just like his knowledge of the airstairs. He seems to know they can be deployed during flight, yet doesn't seem to know how to open them. Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?
Could it be that much of his knowledge came from study, not experience?
That's how I have looked at it. also, he never bothered, or cared how the plane got to Mexico, no flight updates, altitudes, direction, nothing. this could point to wanting out of the plane quickly, or not enough knowledge such as McCoy had who was extremely accurate with his landing. his background was known, and extensive. we can only speculate on Cooper....
Shutter is correct that Cooper apparently wanted to jump soon after take off. After jumping, the airliner was not something that he cared about. Whatever happened to the airliner was their tough luck.
I appreciate people don't wish to cover old ground, but what do you base your feelings on?
wanted to jump soon after take off ..... and .... whatever happened to the airliner was their tough luck.
Do you believe Cooper knew what route they would be taking and if so how? According to Larry, Cooper had no idea what route they were taking except for heading south to Reno (on just enough fuel to make it) ?
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Do you believe Cooper knew what route they would be taking and if so how? According to Larry, Cooper had no idea what route they were taking except for heading south to Reno (on just enough fuel to make it) ?
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Cooper chose Mexico City and not say New York. He agreed upon Reno because it wasn't an issue. I don't think even the flight plan was an issue but what was, is that it was in the "direction" from Seattle to Mexico. Cooper's demands for the stairs, etc would suggest he wanted to bail early or quickly if need be (maybe rushed.) It would be to his benefit that the plane stay in the sky for the longest amount of time making it hard to locate him, allowing more time to get out of the area and for evidence from the crew/aircraft itself to be gathered. NWO knew that too as they wanted the plane to land as soon as the crew became aware he bailed.
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Do you believe Cooper knew what route they would be taking and if so how? According to Larry, Cooper had no idea what route they were taking except for heading south to Reno (on just enough fuel to make it) ?
Cooper chose Mexico City and not say New York. He agreed upon Reno because it wasn't an issue. I don't think even the flight plan was an issue but what was, is that it was in the "direction" from Seattle to Mexico. Cooper's demands for the stairs, etc would suggest he wanted to bail early or quickly if need be (maybe rushed.) It would be to his benefit that the plane stay in the sky for the longest amount of time making it hard to locate him, allowing more time to get out of the area and for evidence from the crew/aircraft itself to be gathered. NWO knew that too as they wanted the plane to land as soon as the crew became aware he bailed.
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Good points above. Time ^ distance equals confusion.
They claim they did not know if he was gone until Reno. They were even late reporting the pressure spike (discussed it for some time before reporting it, then Rataczak called it in according to Anderson).
Rataczak is on record as wanting to fly out into the ocean and let Cooper jump there. They took V23 instead. I guess we have no flight comms that speak to that decision. Did Cooper know where he was and if so how - the question has been asked before without any final answer because for one we don't have Cooper to ask, and no document addresses the issue so far as I know ...
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?
A lot of time passed when they mentioned not knowing if he was still on the plane, but mentioned the most probable area he bailed? In fact they asked 305 over an hour later to climb to 11,000 to try and slow his actions down if he was still on board. the climb was also need to avoid terrain. they could only go so high as to not deploying
Cooper never gave instruction on how to go to Mexico. he also noted a flight plan could be made in flight.
As usual we have two possibilities. since he had trouble with the stairs it could of caused the delay in his plan. since he had no real idea where he was due to cloud coverage I doubt he intended to jump where they believe he did on purpose. it's all speculation whether he could of seen the lights at the dam, or anywhere else guiding his path.
McCoy was very precise in asking the crew questions about altitude, speed, direction, and weather. Cooper did nothing of the sort. I'm not convinced he was aware where exactly where he was when he bailed.
Hope this makes sense, I'm a little behind getting out the door this morning..... ;D
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?
At 7:45pm MSP Flight Ops transmitted that somone will have to take a look back and see if he's still there.
At 7:54pm MSP transmits "As soon as reasonably sure th e man has left the quicker u can land"
They're also consistantly giving 305 airport options at this stage. Cooper knows he's going. The crew know he's going too. They've seen him with the cord around his waist. They know the time is soon. NWO is genuine about the saftey of the crew and craft and they could be influenced by the psych who predicted he was going to jump then blowup the aircraft. For all they knew, Cooper could very well have left the bomb.
also a bit of afterthought but I believe MSP thinks that the aircraft can't make RENo in that config, however no Cooper, gear up, flaps in, and seeing it is the valid destination FBI etc has probably been set up there. It makes sense to continue there.
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?
At 7:45pm MSP Flight Ops transmitted that somone will have to take a look back and see if he's still there.
At 7:54pm MSP transmits "As soon as reasonably sure th e man has left the quicker u can land"
They're also consistantly giving 305 airport options at this stage. Cooper knows he's going. The crew know he's going too. They've seen him with the cord around his waist. They know the time is soon. NWO is genuine about the saftey of the crew and craft and they could be influenced by the psych who predicted he was going to jump then blowup the aircraft. For all they knew, Cooper could very well have left the bomb.
also a bit of afterthought but I believe MSP thinks that the aircraft can't make RENo in that config, however no Cooper, gear up, flaps in, and seeing it is the valid destination FBI etc has probably been set up there. It makes sense to continue there.
NWA didn't have any aircraft performance information for 727s flying in the configuration that Cooper demanded. That is why the NWA aircraft performance engineers were continually asking for updates on the aircraft's indicated airspeed, altitude, outside air temperature, and the engine fuel flow rates.
And no one was certain that the airliner could even make it to Reno until it was in the Portland area and the NWA performance engineers had enough information to predict that it could get there. In the meantime, the Air Traffic Control people were giving the airliner alternate airports that could handle it if it could not get to Reno.
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As usual we have two possibilities. since he had trouble with the stairs it could of caused the delay in his plan. since he had no real idea where he was due to cloud coverage I doubt he intended to jump where they believe he did on purpose. it's all speculation whether he could of seen the lights at the dam, or anywhere else guiding his path.
McCoy was very precise in asking the crew questions about altitude, speed, direction, and weather. Cooper did nothing of the sort. I'm not convinced he was aware where exactly where he was when he bailed.
Is it just a coincidence that if the Cooper suspect landed in the Columbia, that location would be roughly 4 to 8 miles from PDX, the place where he boarded the jet? That's pretty close. Maybe 2 minutes away by jet. Maybe he had a reason to get back to the PDX area?
The Cooper suspect didn't seem to have a plan once he got in the air. Was he suicidal? I think I saw a video once where Jerry Thomas said he thought Cooper was actually surprised to get as far as he did and jumped just to get out of the plane, or something to that effect. Maybe he was trying to get close to PDX because he had ride waiting or something?
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?
At 7:45pm MSP Flight Ops transmitted that somone will have to take a look back and see if he's still there.
At 7:54pm MSP transmits "As soon as reasonably sure th e man has left the quicker u can land"
They're also consistantly giving 305 airport options at this stage. Cooper knows he's going. The crew know he's going too. They've seen him with the cord around his waist. They know the time is soon. NWO is genuine about the saftey of the crew and craft and they could be influenced by the psych who predicted he was going to jump then blowup the aircraft. For all they knew, Cooper could very well have left the bomb.
also a bit of afterthought but I believe MSP thinks that the aircraft can't make RENo in that config, however no Cooper, gear up, flaps in, and seeing it is the valid destination FBI etc has probably been set up there. It makes sense to continue there.
NWA didn't have any aircraft performance information for 727s flying in the configuration that Cooper demanded. That is why the NWA aircraft performance engineers were continually asking for updates on the aircraft's indicated airspeed, altitude, outside air temperature, and the engine fuel flow rates.
And no one was certain that the airliner could even make it to Reno until it was in the Portland area and the NWA performance engineers had enough information to predict that it could get there. In the meantime, the Air Traffic Control people were giving the airliner alternate airports that could handle it if it could not get to Reno.
In the short period of time I've dived into the Cooper case, I quickly realize that if you don't respect the person, you should question their opinions related to their "facts." It's both a simple and efficient filtering procedure. I've read your posts about the flight path of the aircraft. It's technically proficient. If anything, you should be the go to guy for anything related to it.
so that said wouldn't it be easy for the flight engineers to look at the drag, fuel, with the normal op performance of the 727 and do some simple math. The birds on the ground, they've yet to get a destination/demand. Once they get the destination, it would seem in everyone's best to scramble with the demands (esp aft stair down) on the most simplest, will it get there? MSP knows that flaps 15, gear down, aft stairs UP that they can't make Mexico. They're guessing (max) SFO, maybe PHX. On the ground, prior to take off theyre working on range, correct?
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?
At 7:45pm MSP Flight Ops transmitted that somone will have to take a look back and see if he's still there.
At 7:54pm MSP transmits "As soon as reasonably sure th e man has left the quicker u can land"
They're also consistantly giving 305 airport options at this stage. Cooper knows he's going. The crew know he's going too. They've seen him with the cord around his waist. They know the time is soon. NWO is genuine about the saftey of the crew and craft and they could be influenced by the psych who predicted he was going to jump then blowup the aircraft. For all they knew, Cooper could very well have left the bomb.
also a bit of afterthought but I believe MSP thinks that the aircraft can't make RENo in that config, however no Cooper, gear up, flaps in, and seeing it is the valid destination FBI etc has probably been set up there. It makes sense to continue there.
NWA didn't have any aircraft performance information for 727s flying in the configuration that Cooper demanded. That is why the NWA aircraft performance engineers were continually asking for updates on the aircraft's indicated airspeed, altitude, outside air temperature, and the engine fuel flow rates.
And no one was certain that the airliner could even make it to Reno until it was in the Portland area and the NWA performance engineers had enough information to predict that it could get there. In the meantime, the Air Traffic Control people were giving the airliner alternate airports that could handle it if it could not get to Reno.
In the short period of time I've dived into the Cooper case, I quickly realize that if you don't respect the person, you should question their opinions related to their "facts." It's both a simple and efficient filtering procedure. I've read your posts about the flight path of the aircraft. It's technically proficient. If anything, you should be the go to guy for anything related to it.
so that said wouldn't it be easy for the flight engineers to look at the drag, fuel, with the normal op performance of the 727 and do some simple math. The birds on the ground, they've yet to get a destination/demand. Once they get the destination, it would seem in everyone's best to scramble with the demands (esp aft stair down) on the most simplest, will it get there? MSP knows that flaps 15, gear down, aft stairs UP that they can't make Mexico. They're guessing (max) SFO, maybe PHX. On the ground, prior to take off theyre working on range, correct?
N467US, the NWA aircraft that was hijacked, was a Boeing 727-051 and it was delivered new to NWA in April 1965. As such, it was a very early 727 and had a relatively short range, which I think was less than 2000 nautical miles under optimal conditions. And the 10000 feet altitude, low airspeed, landing gear down, and flap considerations (I don't know if the wing leading edge Krueger flaps and moveable slats were deployed at the 15 degree setting), were something that was not optimal and NWA may not have had pertinent information on.
But I am sure that the NWA performance engineers were working on the range problem with the crew and everyone else once Cooper specified the aircraft configuration. But basically, in the 45 minutes or so it took the airliner to fly from Seattle through the Portland area, the engineers were able to get the information from the crew about the fuel use under the actual flight conditions and they estimated the aircraft could make it to Reno and it did.
Here is a story along the same line. In the mid-1960s, Boeing got a contract with NASA-Langley to do some flight tests on blown flaps. The original 707 prototype (N70700) was the aircraft to be used and it was modified at Boeing Seattle for the program. The modifications included running some ducts, for the air to blow the flaps, through the landing gear retraction areas. Consequently, the landing gear could not be retracted. The aircraft was flown from Seattle to the NASA facility at Langley AFB, VA (and eventually back to Seattle) with the landing gear locked down. I understand it took two days for the trip across the country and I don't know how many stops for refueling. I saw the aircraft flying a number of times in the Langley area and it was always with all four engines screaming bloody murder and the aircraft doing about 150 Knots.
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?
A lot of time passed when they mentioned not knowing if he was still on the plane, but mentioned the most probable area he bailed? In fact they asked 305 over an hour later to climb to 11,000 to try and slow his actions down if he was still on board. the climb was also need to avoid terrain. they could only go so high as to not deploying
Cooper never gave instruction on how to go to Mexico. he also noted a flight plan could be made in flight.
As usual we have two possibilities. since he had trouble with the stairs it could of caused the delay in his plan. since he had no real idea where he was due to cloud coverage I doubt he intended to jump where they believe he did on purpose. it's all speculation whether he could of seen the lights at the dam, or anywhere else guiding his path.
McCoy was very precise in asking the crew questions about altitude, speed, direction, and weather. Cooper did nothing of the sort. I'm not convinced he was aware where exactly where he was when he bailed.
Hope this makes sense, I'm a little behind getting out the door this morning..... ;D
As difficult as it is to accept, that this "smart guy" who knew more about the 727 than NWA or the pilots ( a myth?) who wasn't all knowing and in total control, I think you've pretty much nailed the truth of Cooper and this hijacking. He didn't know where he was. He bailed after a reasonable time of checking things out and getting prepped, perhaps when he saw a lot of ground lighting coming up below him. And that is why we have money at Tina Bar today, as opposed to being outside Reno Nevada, or in Oregon somewhere, … just as we have the placard near Toutle.
This all goes back to Sluggo and sorting out myths vs. facts. The reason for that exercise is in order to have the proper mindset when thinking about this case. Being fact-directed vs. myth-diverted. It's very important to have a mindset based on facts vs. myths vs. ‘what we would like Cooper to have been or done’.
They really didn't know if he was gone or not. That was the reason they did not land earlier than Reno. Once landed Scott did go back and looked against orders, prior to the plane being boarded, and he reports: "Our friend departed ....is not with us", or something to that effect.
Sluggo was 100% correct. Mindset is vital. And mindset is only possible with facts vs. myths.
That is a light year away from peddling KC and Weber, and writing 500 articles about "Is there a heaven for dogs".
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?
At 7:45pm MSP Flight Ops transmitted that somone will have to take a look back and see if he's still there.
At 7:54pm MSP transmits "As soon as reasonably sure th e man has left the quicker u can land"
They're also consistantly giving 305 airport options at this stage. Cooper knows he's going. The crew know he's going too. They've seen him with the cord around his waist. They know the time is soon. NWO is genuine about the saftey of the crew and craft and they could be influenced by the psych who predicted he was going to jump then blowup the aircraft. For all they knew, Cooper could very well have left the bomb.
also a bit of afterthought but I believe MSP thinks that the aircraft can't make RENo in that config, however no Cooper, gear up, flaps in, and seeing it is the valid destination FBI etc has probably been set up there. It makes sense to continue there.
NWA didn't have any aircraft performance information for 727s flying in the configuration that Cooper demanded. That is why the NWA aircraft performance engineers were continually asking for updates on the aircraft's indicated airspeed, altitude, outside air temperature, and the engine fuel flow rates.
And no one was certain that the airliner could even make it to Reno until it was in the Portland area and the NWA performance engineers had enough information to predict that it could get there. In the meantime, the Air Traffic Control people were giving the airliner alternate airports that could handle it if it could not get to Reno.
In the short period of time I've dived into the Cooper case, I quickly realize that if you don't respect the person, you should question their opinions related to their "facts." It's both a simple and efficient filtering procedure. I've read your posts about the flight path of the aircraft. It's technically proficient. If anything, you should be the go to guy for anything related to it.
so that said wouldn't it be easy for the flight engineers to look at the drag, fuel, with the normal op performance of the 727 and do some simple math. The birds on the ground, they've yet to get a destination/demand. Once they get the destination, it would seem in everyone's best to scramble with the demands (esp aft stair down) on the most simplest, will it get there? MSP knows that flaps 15, gear down, aft stairs UP that they can't make Mexico. They're guessing (max) SFO, maybe PHX. On the ground, prior to take off theyre working on range, correct?
N467US, the NWA aircraft that was hijacked, was a Boeing 727-051 and it was delivered new to NWA in April 1965. As such, it was a very early 727 and had a relatively short range, which I think was less than 2000 nautical miles under optimal conditions. And the 10000 feet altitude, low airspeed, landing gear down, and flap considerations (I don't know if the wing leading edge Krueger flaps and moveable slats were deployed at the 15 degree setting), were something that was not optimal and NWA may not have had pertinent information on.
But I am sure that the NWA performance engineers were working on the range problem with the crew and everyone else once Cooper specified the aircraft configuration. But basically, in the 45 minutes or so it took the airliner to fly from Seattle through the Portland area, the engineers were able to get the information from the crew about the fuel use under the actual flight conditions and they estimated the aircraft could make it to Reno and it did.
Here is a story along the same line. In the mid-1960s, Boeing got a contract with NASA-Langley to do some flight tests on blown flaps. The original 707 prototype (N70700) was the aircraft to be used and it was modified at Boeing Seattle for the program. The modifications included running some ducts, for the air to blow the flaps, through the landing gear retraction areas. Consequently, the landing gear could not be retracted. The aircraft was flown from Seattle to the NASA facility at Langley AFB, VA (and eventually back to Seattle) with the landing gear locked down. I understand it took two days for the trip across the country and I don't know how many stops for refueling. I saw the aircraft flying a number of times in the Langley area and it was always with all four engines screaming bloody murder and the aircraft doing about 150 Knots.
This is excellent, R99. It helps to have a proper perspective based on Facts vs. myth, for a change.
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One of the reasons they were worried about fuel was Rataczak went to 30 degrees on the flaps. this put an more drag on the plane. they would of never made it in that configuration. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slowing down to about 160 KIAS. soon after he switches to 30 degrees. the transcripts, or log shows the plane 14 miles DME at 7:40. this can not be met at the speed the plane was going. Rataczak said somewhere I recall about the stairs causing vibrations, and this was the reason he switched to 30 degrees, but that doesn't jive with the records. anyone have an answer on that one?
Cooper has the steps down somewhere close, or around McChord AFB.
9;30 rolls around, and they are not sure if Cooper is on the plane, so they ask to lower the cabin pressure to slow his reflexes down along with climbing to 11,000. who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?
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One of the reasons they were worried about fuel was Rataczak went to 30 degrees on the flaps. this put an more drag on the plane. they would of never made it in that configuration. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slowing down to about 160 KIAS. soon after he switches to 30 degrees. the transcripts, or log shows the plane 14 miles DME at 7:40. this can not be met at the speed the plane was going. Rataczak said somewhere I recall about the stairs causing vibrations, and this was the reason he switched to 30 degrees, but that doesn't jive with the records. anyone have an answer on that one?
Cooper has the steps down somewhere close, or around McChord AFB.
9;30 rolls around, and they are not sure if Cooper is on the plane, so they ask to lower the cabin pressure to slow his reflexes down along with climbing to 11,000. who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?
who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?
who? ????????????????
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One of the reasons they were worried about fuel was Rataczak went to 30 degrees on the flaps. this put an more drag on the plane. they would of never made it in that configuration. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slowing down to about 160 KIAS. soon after he switches to 30 degrees. the transcripts, or log shows the plane 14 miles DME at 7:40. this can not be met at the speed the plane was going. Rataczak said somewhere I recall about the stairs causing vibrations, and this was the reason he switched to 30 degrees, but that doesn't jive with the records. anyone have an answer on that one?
Cooper has the steps down somewhere close, or around McChord AFB.
9;30 rolls around, and they are not sure if Cooper is on the plane, so they ask to lower the cabin pressure to slow his reflexes down along with climbing to 11,000. who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?
who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?
who? ????????????????
The three members of the flight crew probably were using their oxygen system, which is separate from the cabin system. Presumably, there would be a fourth mask for the jump seat and thus Tina could use it if desired. So if anyone actually went to sleep, it probably would be Tina since the flight crew was busy flying the airplane.
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Okay well, sorry to ruin it for everybody, but bad news for the FBI and all of you who have invested your time into Cooper. I just watched an excellent documentary on space travel called The Reluctant Astronaut and if I can apply what I'm calling the "floating peanut butter snake theory" to this 727 config issue, I will be blown' the doors off of this case.
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One of the reasons they were worried about fuel was Rataczak went to 30 degrees on the flaps. this put an more drag on the plane. they would of never made it in that configuration. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slowing down to about 160 KIAS. soon after he switches to 30 degrees. the transcripts, or log shows the plane 14 miles DME at 7:40. this can not be met at the speed the plane was going. Rataczak said somewhere I recall about the stairs causing vibrations, and this was the reason he switched to 30 degrees, but that doesn't jive with the records. anyone have an answer on that one?
Cooper has the steps down somewhere close, or around McChord AFB.
9;30 rolls around, and they are not sure if Cooper is on the plane, so they ask to lower the cabin pressure to slow his reflexes down along with climbing to 11,000. who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?
who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?
who? ????????????????
The three members of the flight crew probably were using their oxygen system, which is separate from the cabin system. Presumably, there would be a fourth mask for the jump seat and thus Tina could use it if desired. So if anyone actually went to sleep, it probably would be Tina since the flight crew was busy flying the airplane.
What I was talking about is the fact of them pretty much knowing he bailed over an hour ago, and yet they still try some tricks and fail to take a peak in the back? they were aware the stairs were down for some time. then they realized he probably jumped, but that was only Cooper on the stairs. soon after that a pressure bump is felt, but we don't have anything on the transcripts to verify this account, but Rat confirms it. now, over an hour later they want to slow his reflexes down?
Shouldn't the "really smart guys" know Cooper already bailed somewhere past the 8:12 mark, or when Rataczak told them of the bump? it doesn't sound like they were positive he jumped somewhere around Battleground?
I should of said "who fell a sleep at the wheel" after indications not once, but twice that it probably left the plane. :-\ :-\ :-\
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?
A lot of time passed when they mentioned not knowing if he was still on the plane, but mentioned the most probable area he bailed? In fact they asked 305 over an hour later to climb to 11,000 to try and slow his actions down if he was still on board. the climb was also need to avoid terrain. they could only go so high as to not deploying
Cooper never gave instruction on how to go to Mexico. he also noted a flight plan could be made in flight.
As usual we have two possibilities. since he had trouble with the stairs it could of caused the delay in his plan. since he had no real idea where he was due to cloud coverage I doubt he intended to jump where they believe he did on purpose. it's all speculation whether he could of seen the lights at the dam, or anywhere else guiding his path.
McCoy was very precise in asking the crew questions about altitude, speed, direction, and weather. Cooper did nothing of the sort. I'm not convinced he was aware where exactly where he was when he bailed.
Hope this makes sense, I'm a little behind getting out the door this morning..... ;D
While in SEA
- 305 states they need to leave, spooling up. 305, not Cooper, states get us in direction of PDX, 305 will figure flightpath in the air.
- 305 states that they're in a rut with Cooper. He's insisting aft stairs down. 305 states can't take off with aft stairs down. Cooper wants them down when airborne, "fly with it down so he can bail out at any time" (pilots guess.) Cooper ordered chutes pre-landing, Everybody knows he's going to jump.
- 305 gets affirmation V23 while on the taxiway for takeoff. MSP haven't had time to check but feel best option somewhere along the coast. (that's later where that question arises.) GC or MSP (?) States V23 is over the valley. States populated most of the way but gives 305 "no restrictions at all, you fly the best way you can do her"
It is possible that Cooper had the lights off thinking he would see something but sounds like he wouldn't have. If so the only real backup for that is the knowledge of the time from a watch/clock, maybe he had taken a SEA-SOUTHBOUND flight(?) or driven it etc, or I suppose a "I guess I'm a bit out of Seattle-general area-money's secured-see you later suckers" close enough scenario.
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what's up with Loren Peterson's recollections of the money. $250k? Black crew bag?
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what's up with Loren Peterson's recollections of the money. $250k? Black crew bag?
... and a yellow CO2 life raft in each back chute?
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what's up with Loren Peterson's recollections of the money. $250k? Black crew bag?
And the emphatic statement from Marianne Lincoln of Shady Acres Airport in Spanaway, WA who says that she heard Seattle Control on VHF talk about the $400,000 that the skyjacker wanted.
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Debating whether I want to buy any of the "peripheral" books of the DB Cooper case, Gunther's book, or DB Cooper's Parachute, or even the books on KC/BDayton/McCoy. Any thoughts?
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Calame and Rhodes on McCoy is a must. It is a unique contribution to the Cooper literature, and is also a gem in the pantheon of true-crime accounts by a cop. It is well-written and touches on subjects that the FBI would not allow their agents to write about these days. A treasure for all time.
Barb Dayton. Yes. Get the second edition copy of Ron and Pat Forman's book. It is more complete, has a ton o' pix, and is better written. Is Barb DB Cooper? I doubt it, but Barb was a fascinating person and her confession is one of the best analyses of how DB Cooper could have done the caper successfully.
KC. Well, if you want to know all the principals in the cat fight over at the DZ, then you gotta read this book. But it's basically trash and filled with inaccuracies and woeful assumptions.
Max's book is a fun read. I read the copy from my library. Besides, the main character Clara says she and DB Cooper lived just down the road from me at Hofstra University, so that was cool.
DB Cooper's Parachute I've never read and it is doubtful I ever will. If you do, let me know.
Similarly, you can skip Bradley's book about his dad, or read my synopsis at the MN. Forget Grey Cop, etc....
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The Cooper suspect seemed to know certain information about the 727, flaps, speed, aft-stairs. He seemed to think the plane could take off with the stairs deployed. Could it? They were damaged when it landed. Are there any known instances of 727s taking off with the stairs deployed.
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nmwrecks: You say "The Cooper suspect seemed to know certain information about the 727, flaps, speed, aft-stairs. He seemed to think the plane could take off with the stairs deployed. Could it? They were damaged when it landed. Are there any known instances of 727s taking off with the stairs deployed."
I say: "It was know around Boeing that the company had made demonstration take-offs and landings with the stairs deployed for our government to interest them into buying and using the 727's to drop personnel and equipment from the air. These demonstrations were performed at the Boeing test airport in Moses Lake Washington. The same airport where JAL trained their pilots. Sheridan Peterson (my # 1 suspect) worked for a short time at Boeing in the Manuals and Handbooks Group where he could have found out all he needed to know about the 727 and could have called the Mechanical Systems Engineers (the ones that designed the Airstairs) to discuss what he needed to know about the 727 Airstairs. He could have even used his Boeing Badge to visit and use the Airstairs test rig in the B-29 hanger located on the East side of Boeing Field. That same building housed the 727 FCTR (Flight Control Test Rig) that had all the hydraulics layed out in full aircraft positions including the Airstairs. His office was on the other side of Boeing field in the 9-101 building just above the M & P (Manufacturing and Processes Lab on the 1st floor) where he could have got all the titanium (alloyed and pure) and aluminum metals on his tie as he looked into the scrap bins around the outside walls of the lab. He would have passed those bins at least two times a day. I know my tie often swung into the bins as I looked through the neat scrap being discarded. My office was up stairs too in the same building."
This was a very well planned caper and nothing was overlooked except the use of DNA which the FBI has yet to look at under the four envelop flaps and stamps of the letters sent to the news papers shortly after Norjak. Why haven't the FBI looked at the evidence they have and compared the DNA with what they have taken from Sheridan? They are so close as a match (which I am sure they would get) would show Sheridan was in Portland when his phony alibi was he was in Nepal. There is still time as Sheridan is still alive and living in California but getting older. Time is short now but the FBI could make an easy check of the DNA and solve their only unsolved skyjacking.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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The Cooper suspect seemed to know certain information about the 727, flaps, speed, aft-stairs. He seemed to think the plane could take off with the stairs deployed. Could it? They were damaged when it landed. Are there any known instances of 727s taking off with the stairs deployed.
From a flight dynamics point of view, there is no reason why the 727 could not easily take off with the aft stairs down but unlocked. If the aft stairs were locked down, as they were during passenger loading and unloading, it would present more of a problem but could quite possibility be done but with some damage to the stairs. The stairs down and locked would present difficulties in rotating (raising the nose) for take off but at high speed I think the longitudinal control power would be sufficient to overcome the resistance from the stairs, and thereby collapse the stairs.
During the landing in Reno, the stairs were unlocked and only dropped to the pavement after the landing, as the aircraft was turning off the runway. The damage was very slight and I think there is a picture of it somewhere on this site and definitely on other sites. The hijacked airliner was flown back to Seattle the following day and back in regular service within another day or so. This is discussed in the NWA paperwork at the WSHM site.
I think there are pictures somewhere of 727s in Southeast Asia taxiing with the aft stairs partially down. Cooper's statement that he knew that the 727 could take off with the aft stairs (at least partially) down should be accepted at face value.
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The last flight out of Vietnam (Da Nang) the plane took off with the rear stairs down. the condition of the plane wasn't suppose to fly at all, but it did. they didn't really have a choice to pull the stairs up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzcWZ7j1iTg
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They didn't seem to know a 707 could barrel roll....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_khhzuFlE
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The movie "In Search of Dan Cooper" is available free streaming on CBC, dubbed into english. However, there might be a Canada only restriction. Maybe you can try a VPN, not sure if a proxy would work. I am no expert on these things..
http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/Shows/Absolutely+Canadian/Absolutely+Quebec/ID/2504597489/
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Fly, I moved your comment here. I don't really want to start anymore threads at this time. we have enough topics to post any questions in. no biggie........
Shutter
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I was looking into the tie bar, as we know, it was a very common design that was used in cheap costume jewellery up to low end. I found that Speidel made that design and rebranded for different department stores at the low end. Swank brand also sold it but slighly higher end. There were a few others.
It was usually sold as a kit with the cufflinks, often with a money clip, sometimes with pen kits or even with higher end gems.
What happened to the rest of Coopers kit??
Here is a matching kit with the original store tag on the box YDC $2.00.. YDC was York Discount Corporation, part of McCrorys five and dime empire, YDC was Eastern headquartered in York Pennsylvania. The design was so pervasive that it tells us little, but Coopers is very low end and widely available. Likely, there is a date code on this tag, but retailers had their own system.
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It's hard to say whether he had the rest of the jewelry that came with the tie "clip". I'm not sure if this was sold as one piece during the time period. it's possible he never had the set, or it's still unknown if the tie was his, or purchased somewhere prior to the crime.
I spent a lot of time trying to track down leads on it. I concluded it was manufactured in New Jersey (I think) I made a video, don't know if you ever seen it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5a_qSBqIYM
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It's hard to say whether he had the rest of the jewelry that came with the tie "clip". I'm not sure if this was sold as one piece during the time period. it's possible he never had the set, or it's still unknown if the tie was his, or purchased somewhere prior to the crime.
I spent a lot of time trying to track down leads on it. I concluded it was manufactured in New Jersey (I think) I made a video, don't know if you ever seen it?
Good info, I found much of the same, Speidel made low end under different names for dept stores, Stacy tended to be a little higher end sometimes with a pen/pencil kit.
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I made the video a while back. I've found about a dozen more companies selling the product. it basically came from one manufacture who sold/shipped it all over the country, and they put the product in there boxes. have you found any from
Canada?
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I made the video a while back. I've found about a dozen more companies selling the product. it basically came from one manufacture who sold/shipped it all over the country, and they put the product in there boxes. have you found any from
Canada?
No manufacturing, but like the US, Canada had many department store chains that sold house brands. I haven't found the exact Cooper clip though.
Also, some fountain pen nibs were titanium, not sure what form, probably an alloy and those cheap sets usually didn't come with fountain pens.
Something like 85% of watches are bought as gifts, I thought about my tie clips and I never bought any of them, they (5) were all gifts from family or work. So, I wonder generally what the breakdown is for tie clips/sets, was Coopers a gift.
That design was produced for decades, how old do you think it is? It looks well worn,
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The same clip in the 50s had a different type of clip. Probably not older than the 60s.
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I have questions about the stairs,,,
How do they work, can they be partially lowered, is there any indicator to distinguish full vs partial.
Note these two images, they were shredded, not the stairs but the fabric side panels. The weight drop test stairs had a different shredding pattern. Could be the variability of the attachment/tightness or Cooper plane flew further. It is interesting that Coopers is ripped even on both sides a little over half way up, the test has one side perfect the other 90% gone..
Could Cooper have partially opened the stairs, say 50% causing the even tearing, then fully lowering them a bit later. That is what I would do, lower them partially to get bearings. Is that even possible..
(http://nymag.com/daily/intel/upload/2011/07/airstairsnew_560x375.jpg)
(http://n467us.com/Photo%20Evidence_files/image046.jpg)
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They work by gravity. once the stairs are down, you have to lock them from the ground. when the light came on with the stairs they were only partially open until Cooper went down them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjXB1Y9kISg
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Here they are partially open...
(http://n467us.com/Photo%20Evidence_files/image077.jpg)
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Here they are partially open...
(http://n467us.com/Photo%20Evidence_files/image077.jpg)
here it is,, 20 deg ,, so after Cooper left the stairs returned to 20 deg
"Once in the test area the plane was flown with flaps at 15 degrees, wheels down, approximately 150 KIAS. When the aft airstairs were released, they dropped 20 degrees (Photo here.). There was a slight change in cabin pressure indicated by gauges, but not felt by the flight crew.
Air Force Captain Wilson and M/Sgt Saiz individually walked down the airstairs (wearing parachutes) and stood at the bottom. Each reported that the stairs lowered to almost a level position, they were stable, no drag from the wind and they could stand fully upright.
When at the bottom of the stairs the cabin pressure gauge showed significant changes.
They then performed a test by dropping each of the two sleds and in both tests the sleds dropped directly down (dispelling a theory that Cooper would have been slammed up against the tail when he jumped). The moment the sleds cleared the stairs the flight crew felt a popping in their ears and the cabin pressure gauge reacted violently. It was discovered from chase plane photo's, video and reports from Wilson and Saiz that the pressure change was caused by the stairs being forced upward by the airstream after the weight was removed.
Flight Engineer Harold E. Anderson, who was present for the test and served on the flight crew of Flight 305 the night of the hijacking, stated that the pressure bump felt during the test was identical to what was experienced the night of the hijacking."
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The problem is they believe they got the jump wrong due to oscillation felt at 8:10/11. this was believed to be when Cooper was at the bottom of the stairs. then a pressure bump was felt (actual jump) according to Rataczak that occurred 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper at 8:05.
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The problem is they believe they got the jump wrong due to oscillation felt at 8:10/11. this was believed to be when Cooper was at the bottom of the stairs. then a pressure bump was felt (actual jump) according to Rataczak that occurred 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper at 8:05.
oscillations and bump, distinct events (phenomena).
delay in reporting 'bump' according to Anderson of up to five minutes, which explains Rczak's estimate 'that occurred 5-10 minutes after the last contact with Cooper at 8:05.' And, if Anderson is correct 8:05 was not the crew's last contact with Cooper. There was one additional contact of Cooper calling forward after 8:05, to ask the plane be slowed and stabilised' before the 'bump/jump'.
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Robert99, here is what 377 is looking for. it's the Cooper Vane...
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Robert99, here is what 377 is looking for. it's the Cooper Vane...
Shutter, I don't know what it is in the picture, but it looks it is a rigid tab of some kind that cannot fold over as the Cooper vane allegedly does.
Also, the article from Wikipedia that 377 quotes, says the Cooper vane was on a ex-SAS DC-9-21 which means that it operated in Europe.
In the good old USA, I do not remember ever boarding an early model DC-9 through the aft stairs. I have boarded early model MD-80s, and MAYBE late model DC-9-??s, through the aft stairs and never saw a Cooper vane (but I wasn't really looking for one either).
But for the most part, my DC-9/MD-80 flights involved large airports that had enclosed moveable ramps and didn't use either the front or aft stairs.
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It's right here?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooper_vane
And here...
http://aerotoons.com/blog/2013/10/
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According to Wikipedia, skydivers today get a main failure about 1 in 750 times. Anyone know what the main failure rate in the 1970's was?
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what happened to the briefcase?? theories,,,
and what was the parachute pack made of,, not the chute itself..
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According to Wikipedia, skydivers today get a main failure about 1 in 750 times. Anyone know what the main failure rate in the 1970's was?
I don't think statistical averages count here. You had better be ready for a main failure on your first jump. In the early 1960s, and using modified military surplus equipment, I had a neat failure (complete inversion of the canopy) on my ninth jump. Amazon states that she came down on her reserve on her 10th jump. I think 377 had a lot more jumps before having to use his reserve.
Robert99
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And you guys want me to try skydiving?
Some friends!
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And you guys want me to try skydiving?
Some friends!
Bruce, You can't really appreciate the joys of skydiving, or flying either for that matter, until you have had the daylights scared out of you a few times.
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Uh, so that's a "No, I don't have those numbers."?
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Uh, so that's a "No, I don't have those numbers."?
The number of jumps per main failure data probably doesn't exist. I do not know of any such records being kept. In my case, the only recording done was the entry in my skydiver log book and my autograph in my rigger's log book. He was also my instructor. Of course, I did provide him with some refreshments of his choice.
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Thanks, I kinda figured there wouldn't be any, but I wanted to make sure.
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what happened to the briefcase?? theories,,,
I'm curious about this as well. I guess there are only two options really. Either he tied it to himself or he just threw it out of the plane at some point before jumping. Of course throwing it out could lead to it being found and possibly traced back to you, so maybe you would want to take it with you.
But that leads me to wondering how much he really cared about leaving evidence behind. On the one hand you have him being cognizant of the fact that he needed to get the note back (which is what famously sunk MCoy) but then you have him leaving the tie for whatever reason, possibly as an oversight or maybe he just didn't think that it was worthy of being a clue so he didn't care about leaving it behind. I don't fault him for leaving the cigarette butts because DNA evidence wasn't really a thing yet.
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what happened to the briefcase?? theories,,,
I'm curious about this as well. I guess there are only two options really. Either he tied it to himself or he just threw it out of the plane at some point before jumping. Of course throwing it out could lead to it being found and possibly traced back to you, so maybe you would want to take it with you.
But that leads me to wondering how much he really cared about leaving evidence behind. On the one hand you have him being cognizant of the fact that he needed to get the note back (which is what famously sunk MCoy) but then you have him leaving the tie for whatever reason, possibly as an oversight or maybe he just didn't think that it was worthy of being a clue so he didn't care about leaving it behind. I don't fault him for leaving the cigarette butts because DNA evidence wasn't really a thing yet.
Well, this is an interesting area and contradictory.
While dna wasn't a fully developed forensic science yet, many aspects of bio forensics and particle forensics (& finger printing) were! Cooper takes his note but leaves other personal evidence. Makes no sense.
If the titanium and other (machined?) particles on the Cooper tie connect Cooper to a technical-industrial environment where education and training are common, and he still leaves 'palpable forensic evidence' ... then there is a contradiction. Add in his presumed technical awareness implied by his notes and technical negotiations with the pilots! Is Cooper technically aware but forensically stupid!? Has he absolutely no familiarity with law enforcement forensics, but knows metallurgy? Something doesn't add up ... or maybe he didn't care? Maybe he asked for his note back just to demonstrate who was in control vs. anything to do with his finger prints etc?
It is almost as if he is operating with tunnel vision, if he is a technically savvy person. What is the point of taking his note if he leaves his finger prints all over the place, and his tie, and the match book, and his cigarette butts! Today that would be enough evidence to convict Cooper 50 times over and it wasn't much less in 1971 should the FBI chosen to do full and exhaustive forensics in his case in 1971.
No, there wont be any dna analysis in 1971 but there will be blood typing and 20 other bio markers, all from saliva on the butts! Any educated person would know that. Moreover, any deeply educated person would know that the near future was going to include "dna analysis"!
[edit] This is one of the most interesting and potentially important aspects of the case, to me. What rational was really driving Cooper based on who is actually was - his Identity? At length, he said he had a grudge. Maybe the money wasn't really that important to him? He leaves real evidence behind that can identify and convict him.
Who is this guy!? What explains his attention to details on the one hand, and total myopia on the other hand? Is this guy from Mars!? He either is not being rational, or he is! And that goes straight to his Identity.
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It was thirty years before the FBI could do any DNA testing, 40 years before someone took a look at the particles on the tie. That's a pretty good head start.
As for any of the other bio-markers, who knows. I think it's asking too much for Cooper to be well-read on forensics, especially in an era of Dragnet (not CSI).
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DNA was first used as a forensic tool in the mid-1980s, in the UK, according to a recent Netflix docu that I watched. It took about another 5-10 years for techniques to be perfected and for LE to realize what they had.
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As agent Carr stated, he might of had enough experience to be dangerous to himself for thinking he could do it. you have to be in a serious bind to either hijack a plane, or rob a bank. either way it's not normal thinking by any means. they believed he was a criminal in the past. they don't think logically. you should know that one.....I've jumped back and forth on the fence for a while. he made it, no, he died. I just don't know :-\
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I guess I'm basing this on your average criminal, or someone with limited military service, meaning not having any jump experience, but obtaining knowledge thinking he know's enough. asking for front and back chutes puzzles me. the clothes he wore, and the shoes. some say a smoke jumper did it. would a smoke jumper dress like that?
I suppose he could have had skydiving apparatuses in the bag he carried on the plane, so maybe he changed shoes before he jumped? Maybe he had an old school leather helmet in his bag? Or gloves? Or goggles? Tina last saw him what, 20 minutes before he jumped?
I'll have to look again, but the bag was small. goggles and gloves perhaps....
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Move the discussion where we need to go, Shut.
As for spin, this is part of a bigger issue literally and metaphorically - who is saying what about the jump and why. Flip side of that is how much experience is necessary to make the jump successfully?
There is certainly a WIDE range of opinion. But here are some facts to consider:
1. McNally - no experience whatsoever. Had to be shown how to put the parachute on. Made it okay, but not with his money.
2. Cossey, circa 1971, said Coop only needed about six lessons with an instructor to make a successful jump. By 2009, Coss was adamant that Cooper was a "no pull." 2013, Earl is dead, and in 2014, Geoffrey is scrubbing Coss' reputation clean and all we know for sure about Earl J is that he was the rigger.
3, Larry Carr: Cooper was a tumbling, bumbling fool who only knew enough to get himself into trouble. Larry also felt that the 22 degree temps on the stairs would freeze Coop silly, although we now know that half of Boston goes skinny-dipping in the harbor when the temperature goes above 32 for more than an hour. (At least that's what my sister tells me...)
4. Robb Heady jumped into a 300 mph slipstream without goggles. Pulled at 1K when she saw the ground rushing up at him. Tumbled initially for 15 seconds or so, but with 160 jumps under his belt knew how to arch his way into a stable free-fall. Robb jumped from 12K wearing only a wind-breaker and a fishing vest. He said the air was "chilly." He also said there was no significant wind on the stairs.
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Move the discussion where we need to go, Shut.
I already mentioned the problem. I'm a little busy at the moment. I'll move the topic when I get a chance. if the earths rotation stops, I'll jump right on it... :o
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As a Minnesotan, I try not to laugh about the cold arguments. I don't even put gloves on until it's -10f.
As for Cooper's personal history and mental attributes, I think the FBI has always gotten him wrong. Kaye's analysis of the tie shows Cooper was an educated, relatively successful person who held a job in a technical field. Cooper was more than just clever, he was smart. The idea of Cooper being an "old con" on his last gig seem silly now. [Assuming the tie was actually Cooper's.]
Which is not to say someone like Melvin Wilson couldn't be Cooper, it's just very unlikely.
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As a Minnesotan, I try not to laugh about the cold arguments. I don't even put gloves on until it's -10f.
Well, here we have another problem. I was like that while living in Ohio. now, I'm cold at 65 degree's. we southern boys bundle up down here ;D
A couple weeks ago it got down in the low 40's with a wind chill of mid 30's. I thought they were testing cryogenics down here :D :D :D :D :D
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I moved the discussion to here. we were in suspect and confessions. trying to keep the categories flowing correctly......
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DNA was first used as a forensic tool in the mid-1980s, in the UK, according to a recent Netflix docu that I watched. It took about another 5-10 years for techniques to be perfected and for LE to realize what they had.
The German investigator B. Mueller conceived the use of alpha-amylase as a forensic tool to validate the presence of saliva on a given surface, in 1928. By 1950, 37 standard forensic tests had been developed using saliva as the target. Hundreds of tests using saliva had been developed within medical science!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saliva_testing
If agents don't order tests, tests are not done. If agents don't know what tests to order then nothing may be done ... Many agents in the early 70s knew very little about forensic testing because it wasn't in their standard training regime. Some sections of the country were worse than others. Out of all of the agents that worked the Tina Bar dig in 1980, only one had an average science-forensics background! He is the one who insisted on scoring a grid in the sand .... "with the jawbone of an ass"! The sense of doing that became apparent later.
“Cain slew Abel with the jawbone of an ass,” He had left his molecular separator laser at home.
The point is, Bruce, in the 1970s there was a well developed arsenal of forensic methods available, to those that chose to use them. It was a management issue far more than a scientific toolkit issue.
:)
[edit] Cooper may have left evidence behind thinking that LE wasn't up to the task. Or, he may have had no concern about evidence, in any event. We don't know who he was to know, do we! ;)
Idea: Let's just assume he knew enough to get himself into trouble, but he didn't know that fingers leave finger prints! He probably ate red licorice and had a hula hoop?
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I moved the discussion to here. we were in suspect and confessions. trying to keep the categories flowing correctly......
Sorry I posted here! Oh well . . . I cant keep track of the herd.
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Shut, you have lived a sheltered life. You can't imagine anyone robbing a bank or hijacking an airplane who is "normal"?
Criminals are not weird or abnormal in my observation. Did you see the docu on the Vatican that's on Netflix that I recommended? The priests said mass in their vestments after having an all-night sex orgy. That is fairly normal behavior for the Vatican, as I understand it. The larger question is what to do about it. Clearly, one thing that I recommend is not to allow those fellows to be near children.
So, stealing an airplane could be something as simple as climbing a mountain - they do it just because it's there.
As for threatening to kill people with a bomb, lots of guys enjoy killing. I was surprised to learn from so many vets in therapy that they admitted they enjoyed the hunt immensely, and war was fun - they had the best sex of their lives.
Maybe DB Cooper just enjoyed the turn on. I think it is an investigatory mistake to think that DB Cooper was a guy like you, a man who does what you would do, thinks and feels as you do.
That perspective is what Sluggo called "cultural goggles" and I think it is an important dynamic to bring to the Cooper conversation.
I suspect that DB Cooper was a man very different from you or I.
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Georger:
Idea: Let's just assume he knew enough to get himself into trouble, but he didn't know that fingers leave finger prints! He probably ate red licorice and had a hula hoop?
Bruce:
That's one idea, G.
Another is that DB Cooper was the smartest kid on the block and did something no other kid had ever done. Then he ate licorice, of course.
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Shut, you have lived a sheltered life. You can't imagine anyone robbing a bank or hijacking an airplane who is "normal"?
I've hardly lived a sheltered life Bruce. committing a crime that has to do with death, or violence is not a normal thing to do. sure, people make mistakes and kill someone out of anger, or snap, but it's not premeditated in some cases. hijacking a plane is not normal, if it was we would have millions of them, no? I've been down the criminal road, have you? I'm still paying for it! I'm in my 50's now, this was a long time ago back in my late teens to early 20's.
I suspect that DB Cooper was a man very different from you or I.
Meaning, not normal?
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?
Thoughts?
Most, but not all, of my questions could be put into categories. However, I think a case can be made for having a Q&A thread like this so people can go to one place to seek answers to specific questions without changing the trajectories of existing threads. It's something I noticed on DZ, there would be a few pages of good information, and it would get derailed by something like a question or inane comment and the discussion stops and devolves to meaninglessness.
Actually a Q&A category might be a good idea. ?????
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?
Thoughts?
Most, but not all, of my questions could be put into categories. However, I think a case can be made for having a Q&A thread like this so people can go to one place to seek answers to specific questions without changing the trajectories of existing threads. It's something I noticed on DZ, there would be a few pages of good information, and it would get derailed by something like a question or inane comment and the discussion stops and devolves to meaninglessness.
Actually a Q&A category might be a good idea. ?????
The problems I see is it's hard to stay on one topic while discussing this case. we are currently in "General Questions About The Case". do we really need another thread? Tina Bar, and the flight path clash constantly. then while discussing a suspect other things come into play. the majority rules here on this forum. it's up to you guys to decide if another thread needs to be added.
Should I make a poll asking this question?
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Shut, you have lived a sheltered life. You can't imagine anyone robbing a bank or hijacking an airplane who is "normal"?
I've hardly lived a sheltered life Bruce. committing a crime that has to do with death, or violence is not a normal thing to do. sure, people make mistakes and kill someone out of anger, or snap, but it's not premeditated in some cases. hijacking a plane is not normal, if it was we would have millions of them, no? I've been down the criminal road, have you? I'm still paying for it! I'm in my 50's now, this was a long time ago back in my late teens to early 20's.
I suspect that DB Cooper was a man very different from you or I.
Meaning, not normal?
Ah, what is normal? Maybe that is my cultural goggle - normal being healthy, stable, sound mind and body, etc...
I just suspect that DB Cooper is a lot different than I am. And I haven't heard anyone call me normal in quite some time.
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?
Thoughts?
Most, but not all, of my questions could be put into categories. However, I think a case can be made for having a Q&A thread like this so people can go to one place to seek answers to specific questions without changing the trajectories of existing threads. It's something I noticed on DZ, there would be a few pages of good information, and it would get derailed by something like a question or inane comment and the discussion stops and devolves to meaninglessness.
Actually a Q&A category might be a good idea. ?????
The problems I see is it's hard to stay on one topic while discussing this case. we are currently in "General Questions About The Case". do we really need another thread? Tina Bar, and the flight path clash constantly. then while discussing a suspect other things come into play. the majority rules here on this forum. it's up to you guys to decide if another thread needs to be added.
Should I make a poll asking this question?
Well we already have this thread: General Questions About the Case. That should handle any Q&A. People already ask questions and get answers here. We also have threads that never get used. How many pigeon holes are needed?
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Shut, you have lived a sheltered life. You can't imagine anyone robbing a bank or hijacking an airplane who is "normal"?
I've hardly lived a sheltered life Bruce. committing a crime that has to do with death, or violence is not a normal thing to do. sure, people make mistakes and kill someone out of anger, or snap, but it's not premeditated in some cases. hijacking a plane is not normal, if it was we would have millions of them, no? I've been down the criminal road, have you? I'm still paying for it! I'm in my 50's now, this was a long time ago back in my late teens to early 20's.
I suspect that DB Cooper was a man very different from you or I.
Meaning, not normal?
Ah, what is normal? Maybe that is my cultural goggle - normal being healthy, stable, sound mind and body, etc...
I just suspect that DB Cooper is a lot different than I am. And I haven't heard anyone call me normal in quite some time.
Last time I checked, this was a DB Cooper discussion website .... not a Bruce Smith Psychoanalysis website! ??
You define normal however you want. People will either agree or disagree. Or ignore the whole thingy!
My interest is the historical facts in the DB Cooper Hijacking case: not the personality kah-kah of persons in DB Cooper social media threads on the Internet! Specifically I could care less what RobertMBlevins, Jo Weber, or msc others are doing-saying making up lying-about dirty tricks seeking fame and fortune, or what color underwear they were if any! I could care less and frankly do not wish to know what herds of goats and cats they have are and their names. I try to stick to the topic at hand and that is why I am here. Otherwise I would be somewhere else!
If THAT is "hate mongering" as Blevins constantly refers to me as, then so be it! Mine is a personal choice I make. And I have other options available to me.
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Actually a Q&A category might be a good idea.
My post was in response to the above?
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Why are you so cranky, Georger?
Does your mother think you're normal?
Just askin'....
smile....
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General Question:
In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".
So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?
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None. Not in 1971.
The information on the 727 and its requirements for a jump was top secret. Even after the DBC jump I understand that a FOIA request only provided a small amount, and that ultimately 10,000 pages of Boeing materials were delivered.
The only person I know who says he was familiar with the metrics before Cooper was Sailshaw. He hasn't said he knew the 727 could be jumped in 1971, he just knows where that information was available at Boeing. Apparently there was an aft stairs lab at the Renton plant.
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General Question:
In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".
So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?
The information about the aft stairs was closely held. The 727 modifications and test flights to permit dropping parachutists and cargo through the stairway was probably contracted for by the CIA either directly or through one of their aircraft operations such as Southern Air Transport. And that work probably had a security classification and a "need to know" restriction.
If the Southeast Asia 727 operations were going to routinely lower and retract the aft stairs in flight, then they would probably have a special control panel for the stairs with more capability than the one for airline 727 stairs that were only operated when the aircraft was on the ground. That could explain why Cooper had trouble operating the airliner stairs. He had probably never seen that particular control panel before even if he had hands-on experience with the SEA 727s.
The aircraft performance type information was more readily available since the 727 had been in operation for more than five years at the time of the hijacking. I personally don't know all the details, but in airline operation the number of flap settings were limited to perhaps five. In the case of the 727, Cooper would have needed to know the setting at which the leading edge Krueger flaps and leading edge slats were deployed. I don't personally know if they were deployed at a flap setting of 15 degrees or not, but Cooper would have needed that type of information from somewhere.
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None. Not in 1971.
The information on the 727 and its requirements for a jump was top secret. Even after the DBC jump I understand that a FOIA request only provided a small amount, and that ultimately 10,000 pages of Boeing materials were delivered.
The only person I know who says he was familiar with the metrics before Cooper was Sailshaw. He hasn't said he knew the 727 could be jumped in 1971, he just knows where that information was available at Boeing. Apparently there was an aft stairs lab at the Renton plant.
However, Paul Cini planned a hi-jacking (in an alcohol induced state) two weeks prior to Cooper's jump. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/features/2013/skyjacker_of_the_day/paul_joseph_cini_hijacked_a_plane_because_he_had_an_idea_parachuting.html
In addition, Arthur Brinkley, hijacked a plane on June 4, 1970. He was found incompetent to stand trial in November of 1971.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/features/2013/skyjacker_of_the_day/arthur_gates_brinkley_hijacked_a_jet_because_he_believed_the_irs_owed_him.html
How much information was published in the newspapers, or on the nightly news?
Smokin99...can you use your magic and find old newspaper articles from these incidents?
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Bruce Smith: You say: "The only person I know who says he was familiar with the metrics before Cooper was Sailshaw. He hasn't said he knew the 727 could be jumped in 1971, he just knows where that information was available at Boeing. Apparently there was an aft stairs lab at the Renton plant"
I say: "It was logical to me in 1971 that it might be possible to open the airstairs and jump from a 727 in flight. That was the same thinking of Sheridan Peterson when he lived at my house ten years before Norjak. Bruce the aftstairs (lab?) were part of the Flight Controls Test Rig (FCTR) in the B-29 building on the East side of the Boeing Field in Seattle. The FCTR had all the hypraulic pipes and equipment in the same locations as on the plane including the Aft Airstairs that were functional and could be used to demonstrate how they worked too. Sheridan using his Boeing badge could have had entrance to the B-29 building once inside the fenced area around the building. John Yim was the Lead Engineer for the instrumentation work and was there full time along with Bob Harris the engineering aide. They would have let Sheridan play with and operated the airstairs when Sheridan worked at Boeing in the Manuals and Handbooks Group. There was no airstairs lab at the Renton plant that I know of and only the FCTR (B-29 hanger) that was under the control of the Mechanical Systems Test group that were in the 9-99 bldg on the West side of Boeing field."
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Would it not make logical sense to anyone paying attention that you could jump from the stairs of a 727? What knowledge was so top secret about that? If I'm Joe Schmo and I'm thinking that I could jump off the stairs, I think I would have also wanted to take off with the stairs down so the plane would never pressurize. It seems like he had to be convinced on the plane that they could be lowered in flight or am I wrong with that? Also, as a lay person with a passing interest in aviation (my dad used to own a Piper) I know that flaps slow a plane down. Although I don't know how the exact degrees work, I'm sure I could learn that pretty quickly.
Wasn't it the conclusion of the FBI that he was someone who knew a little about what he was doing, but by no means was even close to being an expert? A weekend warrior type who read a few books and is now a "know-it-all".
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General Question:
In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".
So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?
The information about the aft stairs was closely held. The 727 modifications and test flights to permit dropping parachutists and cargo through the stairway was probably contracted for by the CIA either directly or through one of their aircraft operations such as Southern Air Transport. And that work probably had a security classification and a "need to know" restriction.
If the Southeast Asia 727 operations were going to routinely lower and retract the aft stairs in flight, then they would probably have a special control panel for the stairs with more capability than the one for airline 727 stairs that were only operated when the aircraft was on the ground. That could explain why Cooper had trouble operating the airliner stairs. He had probably never seen that particular control panel before even if he had hands-on experience with the SEA 727s.
The aircraft performance type information was more readily available since the 727 had been in operation for more than five years at the time of the hijacking. I personally don't know all the details, but in airline operation the number of flap settings were limited to perhaps five. In the case of the 727, Cooper would have needed to know the setting at which the leading edge Krueger flaps and leading edge slats were deployed. I don't personally know if they were deployed at a flap setting of 15 degrees or not, but Cooper would have needed that type of information from somewhere.
I am still of the opinion:
The stairs go up - the stairs go down.
People are observed going in and out, through a hole, via the stairs.
Cooper asked the crew to lower the stairs and open the hole.
So he was relying on the crew to do it for him.
He didn't know better? He gives no evidence he knows anything further about the entire matter? He just orders that the stairs be lowered and the door opened, while still on the ground. He didn't do it himself - he asked the crew to do it for him. There is no evidence in any of the exchanges that he knew anything about how the stairs operated.
The 'mere fact' that he asked the stairs be opened while still on the ground at SEA has been misinterpreted to mean 'he intended to jump close to Seattle'! The two have nothing to do with each other! Then it turns out he doesn't know anything, can't get the stairs down, he has to learn by trial-and-error, time passes ... so if he had intended to jump while still close to Seattle his lack of knowledge about how to operate the stairs got in the way!
Moreover, he wasn't even ready to jump until much later!
The idea that he intended to jump near Seattle is myth.
The idea that he is a technical expert on the stairs, is a myth.
The idea that he had top secret CIA info on the 727 stairs, is a myth until proven!
So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.
And if Tina's description of him tying off the money bag is correct, he does that with the wisdom and skill of a Cub Scout ... who hasn't read Popular Mechanics and Boy's Life!
[edit] an old physics teacher of mine has been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, along with others in his unit in WWII. http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/01/19/devils-brigade-black-devils-special-forces-congressional-medal/21989267/
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So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.
Good answer. I've never gotten the sense that DB was some aeronautical wizard or had some special knowledge of the 727. I think it's more probable that he was just some criminal who knew/guessed/assumed that you could jump out the back of the plane. He had some basic knowledge about the speed of a jet and about how the flaps worked, but like you said, that knowledge could have come from anywhere and most certainly doesn't require that he be someone who worked for Boeing or for an Airline or have been a former paratrooper or former military.
A schmo like Lepsy could just as easily have done what DB did and said what DB said as an expert like Peterson. At least that's the sense that I get about DB.
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General Question:
In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".
So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?
The information about the aft stairs was closely held. The 727 modifications and test flights to permit dropping parachutists and cargo through the stairway was probably contracted for by the CIA either directly or through one of their aircraft operations such as Southern Air Transport. And that work probably had a security classification and a "need to know" restriction.
If the Southeast Asia 727 operations were going to routinely lower and retract the aft stairs in flight, then they would probably have a special control panel for the stairs with more capability than the one for airline 727 stairs that were only operated when the aircraft was on the ground. That could explain why Cooper had trouble operating the airliner stairs. He had probably never seen that particular control panel before even if he had hands-on experience with the SEA 727s.
The aircraft performance type information was more readily available since the 727 had been in operation for more than five years at the time of the hijacking. I personally don't know all the details, but in airline operation the number of flap settings were limited to perhaps five. In the case of the 727, Cooper would have needed to know the setting at which the leading edge Krueger flaps and leading edge slats were deployed. I don't personally know if they were deployed at a flap setting of 15 degrees or not, but Cooper would have needed that type of information from somewhere.
I am still of the opinion:
The stairs go up - the stairs go down.
People are observed going in and out, through a hole, via the stairs.
Cooper asked the crew to lower the stairs and open the hole.
So he was relying on the crew to do it for him.
He didn't know better? He gives no evidence he knows anything further about the entire matter? He just orders that the stairs be lowered and the door opened, while still on the ground. He didn't do it himself - he asked the crew to do it for him. There is no evidence in any of the exchanges that he knew anything about how the stairs operated.
The 'mere fact' that he asked the stairs be opened while still on the ground at SEA has been misinterpreted to mean 'he intended to jump close to Seattle'! The two have nothing to do with each other! Then it turns out he doesn't know anything, can't get the stairs down, he has to learn by trial-and-error, time passes ... so if he had intended to jump while still close to Seattle his lack of knowledge about how to operate the stairs got in the way!
Moreover, he wasn't even ready to jump until much later!
The idea that he intended to jump near Seattle is myth.
The idea that he is a technical expert on the stairs, is a myth.
The idea that he had top secret CIA info on the 727 stairs, is a myth until proven!
So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.
And if Tina's description of him tying off the money bag is correct, he does that with the wisdom and skill of a Cub Scout ... who hasn't read Popular Mechanics and Boy's Life!
[edit] an old physics teacher of mine has been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, along with others in his unit in WWII. http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/01/19/devils-brigade-black-devils-special-forces-congressional-medal/21989267/
Georger, The Congressional Gold Medal mentioned in that article is not the Congressional Medal of Honor. The Congressional Gold Medal appears to be awarded to personnel who are members of certain groups. The Medal of Honor is awarded to individuals only and there are less than 100 holders of that medal who are alive today.
After Cooper argued with Rataczak about taking off with the stairs down, Cooper agreed to leave them up for the takeoff but he reportedly told Tina that he knew that the airliner could takeoff with the stairs down. And he was right on that point. That indicates prior knowledge of the stairs.
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So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.
Good answer. I've never gotten the sense that DB was some aeronautical wizard or had some special knowledge of the 727. I think it's more probable that he was just some criminal who knew/guessed/assumed that you could jump out the back of the plane. He had some basic knowledge about the speed of a jet and about how the flaps worked, but like you said, that knowledge could have come from anywhere and most certainly doesn't require that he be someone who worked for Boeing or for an Airline or have been a former paratrooper or former military.
A schmo like Lepsy could just as easily have done what DB did and said what DB said as an expert like Peterson. At least that's the sense that I get about DB.
One puzzle is the particles on his tie. But, the tie could have been borrowed, stolen ... we don't even know that it is his tie. It could have been stolen and he left it precisely because it wasn't him? We just don't know. The butts and his glass are him but they go missing! Maybe a few finger prints left in the plane are him? The seat he sat is was kept. Has it ever been swiped for evidence? Where is the seat? ...... the questions are almost endless.
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General Question:
In order for some of our suspects (specifically Wilson or Lepsy) to plan out this heist, they would need specific information about the 727 (flap settings, stall speed, knowledge of the aftstairs) that would not be available to the layman. In earlier discussions on this forum, I think it's been established that Cooper could not have been just "lucky".
So, what kinds of reference material could someone find on commercial jets in libraries? I've seen the fireman's guide to the 727, anything else?
The information about the aft stairs was closely held. The 727 modifications and test flights to permit dropping parachutists and cargo through the stairway was probably contracted for by the CIA either directly or through one of their aircraft operations such as Southern Air Transport. And that work probably had a security classification and a "need to know" restriction.
If the Southeast Asia 727 operations were going to routinely lower and retract the aft stairs in flight, then they would probably have a special control panel for the stairs with more capability than the one for airline 727 stairs that were only operated when the aircraft was on the ground. That could explain why Cooper had trouble operating the airliner stairs. He had probably never seen that particular control panel before even if he had hands-on experience with the SEA 727s.
The aircraft performance type information was more readily available since the 727 had been in operation for more than five years at the time of the hijacking. I personally don't know all the details, but in airline operation the number of flap settings were limited to perhaps five. In the case of the 727, Cooper would have needed to know the setting at which the leading edge Krueger flaps and leading edge slats were deployed. I don't personally know if they were deployed at a flap setting of 15 degrees or not, but Cooper would have needed that type of information from somewhere.
I am still of the opinion:
The stairs go up - the stairs go down.
People are observed going in and out, through a hole, via the stairs.
Cooper asked the crew to lower the stairs and open the hole.
So he was relying on the crew to do it for him.
He didn't know better? He gives no evidence he knows anything further about the entire matter? He just orders that the stairs be lowered and the door opened, while still on the ground. He didn't do it himself - he asked the crew to do it for him. There is no evidence in any of the exchanges that he knew anything about how the stairs operated.
The 'mere fact' that he asked the stairs be opened while still on the ground at SEA has been misinterpreted to mean 'he intended to jump close to Seattle'! The two have nothing to do with each other! Then it turns out he doesn't know anything, can't get the stairs down, he has to learn by trial-and-error, time passes ... so if he had intended to jump while still close to Seattle his lack of knowledge about how to operate the stairs got in the way!
Moreover, he wasn't even ready to jump until much later!
The idea that he intended to jump near Seattle is myth.
The idea that he is a technical expert on the stairs, is a myth.
The idea that he had top secret CIA info on the 727 stairs, is a myth until proven!
So far, he has no more proven technical education than the average Popular Mechanics reader. All we have are a bunch of assumed associations based on the random probabilities which arise because of the situation.
And if Tina's description of him tying off the money bag is correct, he does that with the wisdom and skill of a Cub Scout ... who hasn't read Popular Mechanics and Boy's Life!
[edit] an old physics teacher of mine has been awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor, along with others in his unit in WWII. http://www.militarytimes.com/story/military/2015/01/19/devils-brigade-black-devils-special-forces-congressional-medal/21989267/
Georger, The Congressional Gold Medal mentioned in that article is not the Congressional Medal of Honor. The Congressional Gold Medal appears to be awarded to personnel who are members of certain groups. The Medal of Honor is awarded to individuals only and there are less than 100 holders of that medal who are alive today.
After Cooper argued with Rataczak about taking off with the stairs down, Cooper agreed to leave them up for the takeoff but he reportedly told Tina that he knew that the airliner could takeoff with the stairs down. And he was right on that point. That indicates prior knowledge of the stairs.
Correct on the first. I misspoke.
Correct on his alleged remark to Tina. He doesn't tell Tina 'why' he knows what he says. We have no way of knowing if he is conveying first-hand knowledge or hearsay from something he had read or heard or believed. He accedes the point and isn't ready to bail straight out of SEA in any event. He could have 'demanded' the stairs be put down - he has the bomb - he can demand anything he wants!
Maybe the CIA has the cigarette butts and did their own testing?
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After Cooper argued with Rataczak about taking off with the stairs down, Cooper agreed to leave them up for the takeoff but he reportedly told Tina that he knew that the airliner could takeoff with the stairs down. And he was right on that point. That indicates prior knowledge of the stairs.
In all the accounts I read, Cooper was very confident the stairs weren't going to be a problem whether down or up at takeoff, which suggests prior knowledge. His understanding of the flap settings implies prior knowledge. Knowing the 727 flies slow enough to jump from safely, implies prior knowledge. Knowing the technical names of the stairs, and of the plane's phone system, implies prior knowledge. Add on his apparent comfort in putting on a parachute harness, you have a lot of knowledge to account for.
While the prior hijackings were in the news, it's asking a lot for someone like Lepsy to learn all those things in 11 days. In order to plan this hijacking so quickly, Cooper would have to already know a bunch of stuff. Even ignoring the particle evidence on the tie that eliminates them as suspects, Lepsy and Wilson are over their heads. Perhaps Lepsy and Wilson could copy the hijacking after someone else did it to completion; the fact Cooper was the first to actually jump out of the aircraft puts him at a higher level.
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There is only one person on the radar that would have this type of knowledge, and that would be old McCoy.....he was the first to copy, and fast out of the gate. what was it 4 months later?
But then again we have Peterson, and Gossett.
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After Cooper argued with Rataczak about taking off with the stairs down, Cooper agreed to leave them up for the takeoff but he reportedly told Tina that he knew that the airliner could takeoff with the stairs down. And he was right on that point. That indicates prior knowledge of the stairs.
In all the accounts I read, Cooper was very confident the stairs weren't going to be a problem whether down or up at takeoff, which suggests prior knowledge. His understanding of the flap settings implies prior knowledge. Knowing the 727 flies slow enough to jump from safely, implies prior knowledge. Knowing the technical names of the stairs, and of the plane's phone system, implies prior knowledge. Add on his apparent comfort in putting on a parachute harness, you have a lot of knowledge to account for.
While the prior hijackings were in the news, it's asking a lot for someone like Lepsy to learn all those things in 11 days. In order to plan this hijacking so quickly, Cooper would have to already know a bunch of stuff. Even ignoring the particle evidence on the tie that eliminates them as suspects, Lepsy and Wilson are over their heads. Perhaps Lepsy and Wilson could copy the hijacking after someone else did it to completion; the fact Cooper was the first to actually jump out of the aircraft puts him at a higher level.
The "knowing" of the technical terms could be the flight attendant using the correct name of the stairs and the phone. They were the ones relaying the messages from Cooper to the cockpit. However, it does not take a rocket surgeon ;) to read a sign posted nearby.
(http://Aft placard.jpg)
Then there is the tie. Was it Cooper's? Where did he get it? Carr said it looked cheap. Thrift store purchase beforehand? How could it eliminate anyone if they do not know the source of the tie?
This might be a question for NMIWrecks, but is putting on a parachute harness similar to donning scuba gear?
When our family appeared on the episode of Unsolved Mysteries, I spoke with US Marshal John Donahue about my father. He stated our Dad was a very smart man that could have been very well off if he used his brain and talents for the greater good.
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I wear a safety harness often (see below) it's simple to put on, but every time a greenhorn needs one he is lost at trying to put it on....
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I admire some of you guys. I don't think I could trust my life to a piece of metal and some stitching. Guess I'm a coward!
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The "knowing" of the technical terms could be the flight attendant using the correct name of the stairs and the phone. They were the ones relaying the messages from Cooper to the cockpit. However, it does not take a rocket surgeon ;) to read a sign posted nearby.
Then there is the tie. Was it Cooper's? Where did he get it? Carr said it looked cheap. Thrift store purchase beforehand? How could it eliminate anyone if they do not know the source of the tie?
I agree, I have very little doubt Wilson could put most everything in this heist together. Not sure he could cover all that ground in two weeks. None of the other copycats were able to do it that fast.
I'm not a thrift-shop kind of guy, and maybe I've made this point before, but wouldn't a thrift shop sell the tie and tie clasp separately? I honestly don't know. Is the tie clasp gold-filled or gold plate, or is it so cheap that someone wouldn't bother separating the two?
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I agree, I have very little doubt Wilson could put most everything in this heist together. Not sure he could cover all that ground in two weeks. None of the other copycats were able to do it that fast.
I'm not a thrift-shop kind of guy, and maybe I've made this point before, but wouldn't a thrift shop sell the tie and tie clasp separately? I honestly don't know. Is the tie clasp gold-filled or gold plate, or is it so cheap that someone wouldn't bother separating the two?
Most everything my mother purchased for our family was from a thrift shop. He may have "made" the money, but my mom did not have it to spend. In 1968, we moved from a mobile home park in St. Paul, to the park next to the DQ in St. Cloud, then a few months later in 1969 to Brainerd. My dad was a bartender at Pauline's nightclub before he returned to St. Paul in 1970 to his "print shop" and his job at Mayflower Moving and Storage.
Shutter did research on the tie clasp. It was a cheap men's gift set.
If you followed the first hi-jacking, it was a year prior to Paul Cini. He was found incompetent to stand trial in November 1971 for the hijacking the year prior.
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I admire some of you guys. I don't think I could trust my life to a piece of metal and some stitching. Guess I'm a coward!
I know lots of tough guys that are scared to go on anything higher than 10 feet. I don't look down on anyone not wanting to go up a swingstage, or any aerial lift. (no pun intended)
We use to travel a lot to Florida, or Canada for vacation when I was younger. I use to be terrified of crossing bridges.
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Shutter, you should try the westbound span of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge - it's a steel mesh deck and you can see the water as you drive! OMG!!! I get the super heebie-jeebies.
As for learning how to do the Cooper jump, Paul Cini was not a good teacher. He choose a DC-8, with only a side hatch for an exit.
Not such a good choice.
I know you guys are enjoying a Group Hug on the notion that jumping from a 727 in 1971 twasn't a big deal and just about anybody cudda known about it if they wanted. That's not what skydivers from that era tell me.
This conversation must be driving 377 crazy, because on November 24, 1971 he had a technical manual on the 727 and didn't know the plane could be jumped until the next day, learning from Cooper like most of the world.
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I admire some of you guys. I don't think I could trust my life to a piece of metal and some stitching. Guess I'm a coward!
I know lots of tough guys that are scared to go on anything higher than 10 feet. I don't look down on anyone not wanting to go up a swingstage, or any aerial lift. (no pun intended)
We use to travel a lot to Florida, or Canada for vacation when I was younger. I use to be terrified of crossing bridges.
FULL DISCLOSURE: I have been flying as a passenger since I was about 9 years old and as a pilot (student or fully licensed) since I was 15. I have flown sailplanes to 36,500 feet above sea level. Nevertheless, when I am more than two feet above the ground, I am VERY careful. Altitude doesn't scare me in airplanes, but when the ground is close as when I am on a ladder or maybe the roof of my house, I don't take any chances.
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After Cooper argued with Rataczak about taking off with the stairs down, Cooper agreed to leave them up for the takeoff but he reportedly told Tina that he knew that the airliner could takeoff with the stairs down. And he was right on that point. That indicates prior knowledge of the stairs.
In all the accounts I read, Cooper was very confident the stairs weren't going to be a problem whether down or up at takeoff, which suggests prior knowledge. His understanding of the flap settings implies prior knowledge. Knowing the 727 flies slow enough to jump from safely, implies prior knowledge. Knowing the technical names of the stairs, and of the plane's phone system, implies prior knowledge. Add on his apparent comfort in putting on a parachute harness, you have a lot of knowledge to account for.
While the prior hijackings were in the news, it's asking a lot for someone like Lepsy to learn all those things in 11 days. In order to plan this hijacking so quickly, Cooper would have to already know a bunch of stuff. Even ignoring the particle evidence on the tie that eliminates them as suspects, Lepsy and Wilson are over their heads. Perhaps Lepsy and Wilson could copy the hijacking after someone else did it to completion; the fact Cooper was the first to actually jump out of the aircraft puts him at a higher level.
The "knowing" of the technical terms could be the flight attendant using the correct name of the stairs and the phone. They were the ones relaying the messages from Cooper to the cockpit. However, it does not take a rocket surgeon ;) to read a sign posted nearby.
(http://Aft placard.jpg)
Then there is the tie. Was it Cooper's? Where did he get it? Carr said it looked cheap. Thrift store purchase beforehand? How could it eliminate anyone if they do not know the source of the tie?
This might be a question for NMIWrecks, but is putting on a parachute harness similar to donning scuba gear?
A parachute harness looks much more complicated to don than a typical scuba bc harness to me. I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to skydiving harnesses, so maybe somebody with some experience can tell us how long it would take to train someone to don the harness.
The intriguing thing about this case is sometimes there is no clear answer to a question. The Cooper suspect appears to have some knowledge of skydiving equipment, yet selects the wrong reserve chute (dummy) and the non-maneuverable main chute. Bruce did make a good point that the NV8 (or 6) would be better suited for a high speed opening than the sport chute because it was stronger, so it could be argued he did pick the right chute.
My opinion is he wasn't a very experienced skydiver, though the arguments the other way are pretty solid also.
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Shutter, you should try the westbound span of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge - it's a steel mesh deck and you can see the water as you drive! OMG!!! I get the super heebie-jeebies.
As for learning how to do the Cooper jump, Paul Cini was not a good teacher. He choose a DC-8, with only a side hatch for an exit.
Not such a good choice.
I know you guys are enjoying a Group Hug on the notion that jumping from a 727 in 1971 twasn't a big deal and just about anybody cudda known about it if they wanted. That's not what skydivers from that era tell me.
This conversation must be driving 377 crazy, because on November 24, 1971 he had a technical manual on the 727 and didn't know the plane could be jumped until the next day, learning from Cooper like most of the world.
If you think either of the Tacoma Narrow bridges is bad, then you should give the bridge over the Royal Gorge in Colorado a try. To me it looked like the "flooring" was simply 2" by 6" planks laid on a metal structure and not even bolted down.
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I agree, I have very little doubt Wilson could put most everything in this heist together. Not sure he could cover all that ground in two weeks. None of the other copycats were able to do it that fast.
I'm not a thrift-shop kind of guy, and maybe I've made this point before, but wouldn't a thrift shop sell the tie and tie clasp separately? I honestly don't know. Is the tie clasp gold-filled or gold plate, or is it so cheap that someone wouldn't bother separating the two?
Most everything my mother purchased for our family was from a thrift shop. He may have "made" the money, but my mom did not have it to spend. In 1968, we moved from a mobile home park in St. Paul, to the park next to the DQ in St. Cloud, then a few months later in 1969 to Brainerd. My dad was a bartender at Pauline's nightclub before he returned to St. Paul in 1970 to his "print shop" and his job at Mayflower Moving and Storage.
Shutter did research on the tie clasp. It was a cheap men's gift set.
If you followed the first hi-jacking, it was a year prior to Paul Cini. He was found incompetent to stand trial in November 1971 for the hijacking the year prior.
From what I can find, Cini was the first to "guess" about the possibility of jumping, whereas all previous hijackings had been about taking the plane to some other country.
Cooper not only picked up on the possibility of jumping, he picked the right aircraft, in the right configuration [and the right hijacking tool]. And then, after getting all the prep right, he was able to complete the plan and get out of the aircraft with a parachute on.
None of this is to say Wilson or someone like him could not have done this, but if I had to give what the probability of someone with no prior knowledge of aviation or parachuting planning everything out like this, I would put that probability very low.
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The "knowing" of the technical terms could be the flight attendant using the correct name of the stairs and the phone. They were the ones relaying the messages from Cooper to the cockpit. However, it does not take a rocket surgeon ;) to read a sign posted nearby.
(http://Aft placard.jpg)
Vicki, Do you know the source of the picture of the placard in your post? Based on my not-always-correct memory, that placard is not the one that is discussed on Tom Kaye's web page as having come off in flight.
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The "knowing" of the technical terms could be the flight attendant using the correct name of the stairs and the phone. They were the ones relaying the messages from Cooper to the cockpit. However, it does not take a rocket surgeon ;) to read a sign posted nearby.
(http://Aft placard.jpg)
Vicki, Do you know the source of the picture of the placard in your post? Based on my not-always-correct memory, that placard is not the one that is discussed on Tom Kaye's web page as having come off in flight.
I Googled searched images and found it on the SeattlePI article:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/A-look-back-at-D-B-Cooper-a-wanted-criminal-and-5914795.php#photo-781011
Under the photo it states:
Jan. 17, 1979: Cowlitz County Sheriff's Detective Bob Nix displays an exit placard from a Boeing 727, found by a hunter the previous November near Toutle, Wash. The FBI confirmed the placard matched one missing from the plane hijacked by D.B. Cooper in November 1971. (The Associated Press/provided by seattlepi.com file) Photo: P-I File
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Shutter, you should try the westbound span of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge - it's a steel mesh deck and you can see the water as you drive! OMG!!! I get the super heebie-jeebies.
As for learning how to do the Cooper jump, Paul Cini was not a good teacher. He choose a DC-8, with only a side hatch for an exit.
Not such a good choice.
I know you guys are enjoying a Group Hug on the notion that jumping from a 727 in 1971 twasn't a big deal and just about anybody cudda known about it if they wanted. That's not what skydivers from that era tell me.
This conversation must be driving 377 crazy, because on November 24, 1971 he had a technical manual on the 727 and didn't know the plane could be jumped until the next day, learning from Cooper like most of the world.
I grew up with a lot of fearless guys. I assure you there are smart fearless people who would do the Cooper hijacking without any hesitation, without skydiving training, any experience flying, etc. The only essential ingredients are deciding to do it, putting together a plan, then doing it! Period. They might get injured or even die doing it but they would 'do it' if motivated to do so. Whether 377 knew the 727 was jumpable or not - is totally irrelevant! :) Does he think the world at large waits for him to acknowledge something before people do what they do in life thinking they must do it, or it can be done, etc? Manuals are totally irrelevant to this whole thing! :)
The story of David vs Goliath wasn't in some manual! But every kid with a sling or a bow knew it was possible! People had been bringing down a lot tougher game than Goliath with slings and stones and bows and arrows for millennia! Arm chair manual readers finally had to revise after the fact! :D
I assume Cooper was one of those. Or he was plain crazy. But the fearless smart people among us accomplish what Cooper did, every day of their lives ..... just getting up and going to work and surviving one more day, and none of them are crazy! It was the system that was wrong (in the manual!).
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None. Not in 1971.
The information on the 727 and its requirements for a jump was top secret. Even after the DBC jump I understand that a FOIA request only provided a small amount, and that ultimately 10,000 pages of Boeing materials were delivered.
The only person I know who says he was familiar with the metrics before Cooper was Sailshaw. He hasn't said he knew the 727 could be jumped in 1971, he just knows where that information was available at Boeing. Apparently there was an aft stairs lab at the Renton plant.
However, Paul Cini planned a hi-jacking (in an alcohol induced state) two weeks prior to Cooper's jump. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/features/2013/skyjacker_of_the_day/paul_joseph_cini_hijacked_a_plane_because_he_had_an_idea_parachuting.html
In addition, Arthur Brinkley, hijacked a plane on June 4, 1970. He was found incompetent to stand trial in November of 1971.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/features/2013/skyjacker_of_the_day/arthur_gates_brinkley_hijacked_a_jet_because_he_believed_the_irs_owed_him.html
How much information was published in the newspapers, or on the nightly news?
Smokin99...can you use your magic and find old newspaper articles from these incidents?
The only think I could find was the regular stuff - Cini was about to put the parachute on and jump at 3000 feet from the dc-8 when he got bonked in the head with an ax. Idiot put his gun down to put on the parachute. Cooper: Note to self...don't do what that guy did.
Was Boeing the only source that knew the 727 could be opened in flight and jumped? What about George Doole and his Air America? According to at least one video out there they were at least testing using 727s in early 70s. Yeah, it might have been cover for CIA but sure didn't look like double secret ops to me in the videos. Besides, all any secret needs in order to be common knowledge is two guys sitting at a bar...... or one guy with a video camera ;D
I'll have to research this to get exact dates, but the video is labeled circa 1970,71.
On another note....One thing I did notice is that in many news accounts immediately post hijacking, the officials are talking like jumping from the aft door in flight was no big deal and safer than jumping from any other opening -- just thought it was interesting that it went from the great unknown to "no big deal" overnight.
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Shutter, you should try the westbound span of the Tacoma Narrows Bridge - it's a steel mesh deck and you can see the water as you drive! OMG!!! I get the super heebie-jeebies.
As for learning how to do the Cooper jump, Paul Cini was not a good teacher. He choose a DC-8, with only a side hatch for an exit.
Not such a good choice.
I know you guys are enjoying a Group Hug on the notion that jumping from a 727 in 1971 twasn't a big deal and just about anybody cudda known about it if they wanted. That's not what skydivers from that era tell me.
This conversation must be driving 377 crazy, because on November 24, 1971 he had a technical manual on the 727 and didn't know the plane could be jumped until the next day, learning from Cooper like most of the world.
I grew up with a lot of fearless guys. I assure you there are smart fearless people who would do the Cooper hijacking without any hesitation, without skydiving training, any experience flying, etc. The only essential ingredients are deciding to do it, putting together a plan, then doing it! Period. They might get injured or even die doing it but they would 'do it' if motivated to do so. Whether 377 knew the 727 was jumpable or not - is totally irrelevant! :) Does he think the world at large waits for him to acknowledge something before people do what they do in life thinking they must do it, or it can be done, etc? Manuals are totally irrelevant to this whole thing! :)
The story of David vs Goliath wasn't in some manual! But every kid with a sling or a bow knew it was possible! People had been bringing down a lot tougher game than Goliath with slings and stones and bows and arrows for millennia! Arm chair manual readers finally had to revise after the fact! :D
I assume Cooper was one of those. Or he was plain crazy. But the fearless smart people among us accomplish what Cooper did, every day of their lives ..... just getting up and going to work and surviving one more day, and none of them are crazy! It was the system that was wrong (in the manual!).
Off subject kind of but I always kind of like the fact that history has it that the Anglin and Morris Bros Alcatrez escape was plotted using some flotation info from an issue of Popular Mechanics. Who would have thunk it? :) Whether they survived or not is up for speculation, and even if their primary motivation was literally a choice between the devil or the deep blue sea, they obviously had the essential ingredients you mentioned to go for it. Who knows - it could have been just some random information that Cooper came across in a news story or magazine or in a bar or maybe he knew just enough to figure out the rest.
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None. Not in 1971.
The information on the 727 and its requirements for a jump was top secret. Even after the DBC jump I understand that a FOIA request only provided a small amount, and that ultimately 10,000 pages of Boeing materials were delivered.
The only person I know who says he was familiar with the metrics before Cooper was Sailshaw. He hasn't said he knew the 727 could be jumped in 1971, he just knows where that information was available at Boeing. Apparently there was an aft stairs lab at the Renton plant.
However, Paul Cini planned a hi-jacking (in an alcohol induced state) two weeks prior to Cooper's jump. http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/features/2013/skyjacker_of_the_day/paul_joseph_cini_hijacked_a_plane_because_he_had_an_idea_parachuting.html
In addition, Arthur Brinkley, hijacked a plane on June 4, 1970. He was found incompetent to stand trial in November of 1971.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/history/features/2013/skyjacker_of_the_day/arthur_gates_brinkley_hijacked_a_jet_because_he_believed_the_irs_owed_him.html
How much information was published in the newspapers, or on the nightly news?
Smokin99...can you use your magic and find old newspaper articles from these incidents?
The only think I could find was the regular stuff - Cini was about to put the parachute on and jump at 3000 feet from the dc-8 when he got bonked in the head with an ax. Idiot put his gun down to put on the parachute. Cooper: Note to self...don't do what that guy did.
Was Boeing the only source that knew the 727 could be opened in flight and jumped? What about George Doole and his Air America? According to at least one video out there they were at least testing using 727s in early 70s. Yeah, it might have been cover for CIA but sure didn't look like double secret ops to me in the videos. Besides, all any secret needs in order to be common knowledge is two guys sitting at a bar...... or one guy with a video camera ;D
I'll have to research this to get exact dates, but the video is labeled circa 1970,71.
On another note....One thing I did notice is that in many news accounts immediately post hijacking, the officials are talking like jumping from the aft door in flight was no big deal and safer than jumping from any other opening -- just thought it was interesting that it went from the great unknown to "no big deal" overnight.
Exactly. I also think too much has been made of the supposed 'secrecy' of the aft stairs ... jumpable? Any plane with a hole in it big enough to get through (side or rear) is theoretically "jumpable" ?.
There are many ways Cooper could have come to believe a 727 was jumpable. That the rear door-stairs could be opened in flight. He could have just asked around. He could have asked at an American Legion dinner? He could have called the Sales Div of Boeing and posed as a buyer and somebody probably would have told him! "Our 727 can do anything!" :)
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A very penetrating post showed up at DZ tonight that I think is worth pasting here, for comment - it raises some very important questions which frankly deserve some serious answers. Thanks. G.
Reichenbach
Mar 11, 2015, 9:12 PM
Post #57681 of 57681 (12 views)
Re: [Robert99] McCoy lawsuit [In reply to] Can't Post
I'd like to ask a very legitimate question to you "Cooper fans."
No offense Robert but I can't even get past the fact that the very cover of Into The Blast, represents Cooper with a sport parachute.
If Gray had access to the FBI files, then OMG, where are they in his book? Surely that book would be the textbook, if not the end all reference book on Cooper. Plus the symposium I'm sure was fantastic but your admiration for him for organizing what I see as a successful marketing and promotional event for Skyjack, I don't get. Why are you carrying Gray on your shoulders?
Same with Tosaw, he connects his facts with creative narrative and you people are so eager to regurgitate his pablum as truth. Tosaw discovered what about Cooper?
And the real McCoy? Seriously? I think it's an insult to Dan Cooper to say McCoy was Cooper. McCoy was an obvious idiot. Identical MO?Fingerprints? jumpsuit? Handwriting? Blabbing up a storm? $400k+ in his house? Tina didn't say he's Cooper. Flo didn't say he's Cooper. Alice didn't say he's Cooper. Please.
Just because you CAN write a book about Cooper doesn't mean you know jack about Cooper or that you are close to being even a mediocre author.
So, why do you people have such baseless respect for people who write (entertaining) books about Cooper?
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Just looked at that page on DZ. Blevins says this:
First, on the cover. It looked cool. We knew it wasn't the 'right' type of chute but frankly, we just didn't care because the book isn't about which parachute Cooper used.
Holy shit....I just....there are no words. "It looked cool." Seriously?
I'll keep his viewpoint in mind when I write my book about the Civil War. On the cover I'll give the Confederates M-16's because, ya know, it looks cool.
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So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:
Today ties aren't universal. Most people who wear ties regularly, knot them properly. I know of nobody who wears ties and mixes knotted and clip-on ties. The only people I know who wear clip-on ties are kids working as bus boys in restaurants.
When ties were more universal, did people regularly buy both for convenience?
Yes. Believe it or not, a lot of men didn't know how to 'tie' a tie! Or never could remember, or weren't very good at it. The clip on version was therefore mandatory for some. You generally wore ties to formal occasions. Or, as part of a dress uniform (military). You learned how to tie a tie from mom, Dad, older sister, older brother, girlfriend's mom or Dad or older sister or brother ... or drill Sergeant (it's in the manual somewhere!). Bow ties were very difficult for some to learn how to tie and usually reserved for the most formal occasions. Straight tie on dress uniform - bow tie at very formal military events (dances etc at the Academy). Musicians preferred bow tie - leaves the neck open and doesn't restrict air flow - are required for formal concerts. The clip-on tie solves the tying problem, solves the issue of uniformity of appearance in groups of people, and won't hang or strangle you ...
The issue of dimples in hand-tied ties is a separate issue. See chapter-13 in the manual or ask Uncle Levy!
;)
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Who FIRST used the term "Cooper Royality"?
Smith, Blevins, and Weber have been sniping back and forth about this for months at DZ, each one accusing the other. The answer is quite simple but it is Robert Blevins who took over the term and has been using it for years in a pejorative manner. Rest assured about that self-evident fact at Dropzone.
The origin of the term "Cooper Royality" is quite simple, as any search shows. It was 377 who invented the term back on Nov 27 2011, then Meyer Louie used the term next on Dec 10 2012, then Blevins picked up the term in response to Meyer Louis ... and Blevins has been the one using the term in a pejorative sense ever since, as follows.
(A) On Nov 11, 2011, 377 commenting on the up-coming Cooper Symposium in Washington, tagged Brian Ingram and other principles in the Cooper story as "Cooper Royalty". 377 was merely giving a roster of important people who were going to attend the Symposium and no pejorative sense was intended or implied. 377's original post is here: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4229298;search_string=Cooper%20Royalty;guest=167495339#4229298
(B) Almost a year later on Dec 10, 2012, Meyer Louis in reply to a long list of people, addressed Blevins' claim that Blevins' work on KC was ground-breaking and Meyer said: nothing personal, it just seems far fetched to think you hold the key to this crazy case we all call DB Cooper, many claim Marla is nuts, Jo is nuts, Cook is nuts etc.. but I can't see that you have anything special Then Meyer concluded his post with the remark: I have another point to make Blevins. For some reason you think you are on the same level as Georger and others. Well, you're not. Co-writing a book and appearing on Decoded does not make you an expert. Some folks here are playing in the Big League with the big boys. You aren't there yet. Spending years and years on this case, interfacing with the FBI and the key players on a regular basis, for years, makes one an expert -- makes one "Cooper royalty" if you will. There are only a handful of people in this elite group. You're not there yet -- and you want to be so badly. Give it time Blevins.
(C) Blevins replied to MeyerLouie saying he never had considered himself special, but the launched a long winded attack against me and others finally saying: See, here's the Real Deal: ... I'm just Robert the Sci Fi Guy who Occasionally Edits Books. When I'm not doing that, I'm out in the mountains or something listening to Mariner or Seahawk games or MP3's ... Look, if I considered myself "Cooper Royalty" I would have showed up at the Portland Symposium with my slideshow gear and countered Marla's claims with some of my own. ... On Georger: He jumps on every post I make, no matter what it is. So IMHO his credibility, his opinions, mean zip to me. You have to pick and choose when to jump down someone's throat, and that should be for 'ridiculous assumptions' only, not because you just don't like someone. ... And in his next post Blevins picks up and starts using the term "Cooper Royalty" in a pejorative sense, he then wrote his "article" at Newsvine condemning "Cooper Royalty", he then invented a further negative term "Cooperland", and he is still using these terms almost daily at Dropzone, 3 years later! Jo Weber then picked up and began using the term in a negative way, about a year later.
Blevins' argument has always been that "Cooper Royalty" are flawed if not dishonest people, who are untrustworthy and Hate Mongers!
This term "Hate Mongers" is an exclusive term invented and used only by RobertMBlevins!
That is the factual origin and use of the terms "Cooper Royalty" and "Cooperland" and "Hate Mangers". From a completely neutral term coined by Mark (377), to Meyer's use of the term to counter Blevins' claims that Blevins and his work were somehow special, to Blevins' use of the term in a pejorative sense which starts on Dec 10, 2012 and continues right up to today, all at Dropzone.
It was also Mark-377 who coined the term "Venom Magnet" in reference of Bob Blevins clear back in 2010! It was a prophetic assignment of terms.
Quote, RM Blevins: ""...the term 'Cooper Royalty,'...I use the term to refer to a select group of people who think they are better, or smarter than others when it comes to investigating the case....".
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Thank you Georger, for clarifying this Royalty business.
May I post this at the DZ? Or Shut? Perhaps you should do the honors, as kind of an emissary from the royal court.
As for myself, I am proud to be a member of the Cooper Royalty. I think the term suits us well.
It also seems to drive Bobby crazy, which is always fun.
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This term "Hate Mongers" is an exclusive term invented and used only by RobertMBlevins!
I had heard the term "hate monger" before -- mostly in Washington DC political posturing. It's even in dictionary.com
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hate%20monger?s=t
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Thank you Georger, for clarifying this Royalty business.
May I post this at the DZ? Or Shut? Perhaps you should do the honors, as kind of an emissary from the royal court.
As for myself, I am proud to be a member of the Cooper Royalty. I think the term suits us well.
It also seems to drive Bobby crazy, which is always fun.
sure - do what you want - B will deny it of course. I spent over an hour running searches using a number of search words in various forms. When it came down to it, it was pretty simple. 377 (referencing the symposium in 2011), then Meyer Louie in reference to RMB claims in 2012, then RMB in response to Meyer, and now it has become a mantra 377 never intended.
I wish we could solve the Cooper case as easily! ;)
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Mr. Blevins seems to speak for the Christian family as if he is a member. how would he have any rights to say what is being written about Christiansen? I understand he has rights to Lyle's story, but where does he fall into making legal decisions on things not related to what he wrote?
It has been written in the past that Kenny had young kids at his home, and bought them gifts. this wouldn't fly today! If Mr. Blevins had the same information, and was against Kenny, he wouldn't shut up about the quote from Gray's book! every other
post would have the quote in it.
He has yet to prove his story is truthful let alone something else being said about Kenny.....
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Mr. Blevins seems to speak for the Christian family as if he is a member. how would he have any rights to say what is being written about Christiansen? I understand he has rights to Lyle's story, but where does he fall into making legal decisions on things not related to what he wrote?
The dead have no cause of action for defamation nor do their survivors unless the allegedly harmful words independently defame the survivors themselves.
#PaidAttentionInLawSchool
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It has been written in the past that Kenny had young kids at his home, and bought them gifts. this wouldn't fly today!
It would certainly appear to be suspicious these days and it was probably suspicious back then as well given that people were aware of it enough to remember it happening. Whether or not he had an inappropriate relationship with the boys is something it's probably not fair to speculate on since there really isn't enough evidence. However, I don't think it's base speculation to suggest that KC was gay. Of course, his sexuality is completely irrelevant to the crime unless his "grudge" had to do with homophobia or something.
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I agree that it has no bearing on the case, but it is basic knowledge Kenny was gay, and did have relations with younger kids. I believe this was told by someone who stayed with him when he was younger. it does sort of give a profile into his past though?
The real question would be, what legal ability would he have speaking for the Christian family. he has rights to what is said in his book, but can he dictate what others say about Christiansen, I don't see where he has any grounds?
Added: I just seen your post above about the dead....I missed it at first...
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Mr. Blevins seems to speak for the Christian family as if he is a member. how would he have any rights to say what is being written about Christiansen? I understand he has rights to Lyle's story, but where does he fall into making legal decisions on things not related to what he wrote?
It has been written in the past that Kenny had young kids at his home, and bought them gifts. this wouldn't fly today! If Mr. Blevins had the same information, and was against Kenny, he wouldn't shut up about the quote from Gray's book! every other
post would have the quote in it.
He has yet to prove his story is truthful let alone something else being said about Kenny.....
I have reached the point (like Gray) where Kenny's personal affairs dont even matter next to the deeper issue: has RMB proved KC was Cooper or even come close to proving that? I dont think RMB has presented any more proof that KC was or even could have been Cooper, than RMB has presented proof that elephants are in the same genus as five-toed winged purple snails! That is the only issue at stake!
Where is the family dna Blevins supposedly has produced for Kenny? Let me guess: hate mongers, cooper royalty, slapped down red hair step children, wage earner sheeple, and other Untrustworthy people in Cooperland - only Trusted Friends of Adventire Books like Danielle10-10 get to see it?
And "Cooper Royalty can kiss my ass!" :-*
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Thank you Georger, for clarifying this Royalty business.
May I post this at the DZ? Or Shut? Perhaps you should do the honors, as kind of an emissary from the royal court.
As for myself, I am proud to be a member of the Cooper Royalty. I think the term suits us well.
It also seems to drive Bobby crazy, which is always fun.
Well that backfired bigtime, as I predicted it would... leading to the 50,000th recitation of the 'History of the World' by Narcissist-I and Narcissist-II who have always substituted soap opera for facts.
So let me ask! What would the real DB Cooper think if he could look back and read Dropzone!?
That really is all I have to say about this craziness - :)
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G: And "Cooper Royalty can kiss my ass!"
PB: Just tell me where and when!
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Question for you guys that live up in that area. Do people ever attempt to walk the woods in that vicinity or metal detect? I assume that most of the land is private land, so a person would need permission. Just wondering if people ever do that?
I grew up on a Civil War battlefield (Battle of Champion Hill) and so I was raised relic hunting and spending hours and hours slowly walking through the woods waiting for that awesome beeping sound. In my life I probably filled up a dozen mason jars with minee balls, but I've also found jacket buttons, spoons, cartridge boxes, US cavalry horseshoes, canteen pieces, belt buckles, artillery fragments, and even a whole cannonball!
So anyways, just wondering if people relic hunt the area along the flight path? I know it'd be a one in a million chance to find anything since the area is so vast, but if we assume he is dead there should be the remnants of the chute, the rig and harness, his belt buckle, any coins he had in his pockets, a cigarette lighter, the briefcase, and maybe even his sunglasses.
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Jerry Thomas has been searching the woods for years. I'm sure he has used a metal detector. I wonder how many have done that while not looking for Cooper?
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From Sluggo's site about Jerry: copy/paste
Jerry Thomas, a Vietnam vet, Army survival trainer and drill sergeant, has been looking for D.B. Cooper since 1989. He's spent hundreds of days in the Washougal and Lewis watersheds, sometimes going months at a time searching for clues under the tall trees.
Jerry has his opinions about Cooper’s fate. He believes Cooper's chute never opened. That D.B. hit the ground hard.
Thomas is optimistic that his methodical search will one day yield results.
He says he's hopeful he can answer the Cooper riddle for his friend, Himmelsbach, the former FBI investigator, and for all the others who have wondered, and worked, on finding the man.
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Well good for him! Glad someone is doing it!
Also, is it the consensus that he probably chucked the briefcase out the back of the plane? It would seem like an unreasonable burden to tie a money bag and a briefcase to yourself.
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I don't know when he was last out looking. he's had some health issues.
My guess would also be to lose the briefcase. I wonder what happened to it after it hit the ground. I'm sure it probably broke open dumping it's contents?
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Question for you guys that live up in that area. Do people ever attempt to walk the woods in that vicinity or metal detect? I assume that most of the land is private land, so a person would need permission. Just wondering if people ever do that?
I grew up on a Civil War battlefield (Battle of Champion Hill) and so I was raised relic hunting and spending hours and hours slowly walking through the woods waiting for that awesome beeping sound. In my life I probably filled up a dozen mason jars with minee balls, but I've also found jacket buttons, spoons, cartridge boxes, US cavalry horseshoes, canteen pieces, belt buckles, artillery fragments, and even a whole cannonball!
So anyways, just wondering if people relic hunt the area along the flight path? I know it'd be a one in a million chance to find anything since the area is so vast, but if we assume he is dead there should be the remnants of the chute, the rig and harness, his belt buckle, any coins he had in his pockets, a cigarette lighter, the briefcase, and maybe even his sunglasses.
Cooper had about 2 to 3 pounds of metal with him that would react with a magnet or metal detector. This is primarily the hardware on the backpack parachute but includes, as you mentioned, a belt buckle, coins, possibly a cigarette lighter, and definitely a pocket knife. He had to have the pocket knife since there was nothing on the airliner for him to cut the shroud lines with.
All of the above metal would be in an area not to exceed 2 feet wide and 3 feet long.
If you wish to go to Tina Bar and do some work with a metal detector, I'll be happy to loan you my Garrett machine.
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A couple of thoughts about PNW folks walking in the woods:
1. Jerry T.
JT says he has walked in the woods a lot, but nobody I know has ever seen him go. Back in 2008 and 2009 I asked to tag along with him the next time he planned on tramping, volunteered to even camp out, and he said I was always welcome to come along. But he always backed out of tentative dates to go. We never did get together for the Washougal experience.
Then, I asked Jerry for some specifics of where he has already gone in the Washougal so that I would not repeat romping in the same places he had already gone when I actually got my ass into gear. Again, he said sure, and then never delivered any maps, nor any specific landmarks, sites, identifying markers - nuttin'.
Does anybody know anything about the Washougal search? Where the cave is that JT found the old satchel that got Himms all excited and seems to be the launching of their relationship?
Last thing about JT. When he came to the 2011 Symposium he brought along a HUGE scrapbook filled with Cooper memorabilia from the get-go in '71. It had tons of newspaper clipping, but I didn't see one shred detailing his work. I find that odd. Doesn't he record where he has gone? What he has found? Why not? I know that spelling and grammar are not his strong suits, but still...
2. As for general strolling in the woods, the most comprehensive stuff I know of, are hunters - elk and deer. That's how the placard was found near Silver Lake. We have lots of wanderers, too - lost souls and homeless guys, but they don't wander too deep into the boonies unless they are making a permanent camp in a hard-core kind of way.
LZ-A is not that primal. Lots of folks around, so I would think that most acreage has been accessed. That said, it is lonely out there, and bad guys know they can dump bodies at just about every forest road dead-end. The feds found two when they went looking for Coop, back in '72.
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A couple of thoughts about PNW folks walking in the woods:
1. Jerry T.
JT says he has walked in the woods a lot, but nobody I know has ever seen him go. Back in 2008 and 2009 I asked to tag along with him the next time he planned on tramping, volunteered to even camp out, and he said I was always welcome to come along. But he always backed out of tentative dates to go. We never did get together for the Washougal experience.
Then, I asked Jerry for some specifics of where he has already gone in the Washougal so that I would not repeat romping in the same places he had already gone when I actually got my ass into gear. Again, he said sure, and then never delivered any maps, nor any specific landmarks, sites, identifying markers - nuttin'.
Does anybody know anything about the Washougal search? Where the cave is that JT found the old satchel that got Himms all excited and seems to be the launching of their relationship?
Last thing about JT. When he came to the 2011 Symposium he brought along a HUGE scrapbook filled with Cooper memorabilia from the get-go in '71. It had tons of newspaper clipping, but I didn't see one shred detailing his work. I find that odd. Doesn't he record where he has gone? What he has found? Why not? I know that spelling and grammar are not his strong suits, but still...
2. As for general strolling in the woods, the most comprehensive stuff I know of, are hunters - elk and deer. That's how the placard was found near Silver Lake. We have lots of wanderers, too - lost souls and homeless guys, but they don't wander too deep into the boonies unless they are making a permanent camp in a hard-core kind of way.
LZ-A is not that primal. Lots of folks around, so I would think that most acreage has been accessed. That said, it is lonely out there, and bad guys know they can dump bodies at just about every forest road dead-end. The feds found two when they went looking for Coop, back in '72.
JT's supposed last area of search was the area around and north of Dougan Falls, he said.
I posted this several weeks ago, you must have missed it.
One report claims JT did not make all the searches he claims. I dunno - I wasnt there.
However, a number of people have searched in the Washougal area over the years. Do a search for newspapers articles about others conducting searches in the Washougal ...
You do realise JT also claims flight 305 crossed over at the Troutdale Airport! JT has always been firm on that point he says comes straight from Himmelsbach. Hush-hush. Don;t tell anyone!
:)
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Yup, I remember JT's fierce defense of the Troutdale fly-over.
Thanks for the Dougan Falls tip. Musta missed it.
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Yup, I remember JT's fierce defense of the Troutdale fly-over.
Thanks for the Dougan Falls tip. Musta missed it.
FBI offices sometimes miss things too but they get blamed for it! (by book writers)
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You got a problem with that?
smile...
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You got a problem with that?
smile...
If this is for me, I have a problem with unproven conspiracy theories in general. A conspiracy is one species. System error is another species. Unproven conspiracy theories seldom enlighten us about the real issues at hand. And how do a bunch of people in diverse places who don't even know each other, have never even communicated with each other ... all over a forty years period ... participate knowingly in a conspiracy? Are you claiming they are all connected in the Fourth Dimension on a mountain top on Planet Acres?
If you are going to claim a conspiracy don't you have to prove one?
If I claim that snowballs from Hades made the oceans on Earth, don't I have to provide some hard evidence in order for it to appear in the textbooks the next year?
I dunno. I only work here. I'm slow and watch Letterman while reading the Cooper sites.
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Relax, G.
I was teasing you about your comments on how some reporters blame the FBI when they screw up.
I know you didn't mention ANY names, BUT were you thinking of me when you posted that comment????
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A crazy thing has happen at DZ tonight, in addition to all of the turmoil going on over there. Mr. Blevins has dredged up old "working notes" of mine published years ago, and has actually posted a link to them, ... in a totally pointless response to Smokin99! Why or of what value my old talking point notes have as a reply to Smokin99, God only knows! I guess Blevins is trying to divert attention away from himself, to me? This is crazy on it's face and totally irrelevant to the Smokin-Blevins debate which has been occurring at DZ lately.
These are old talking point notes which I had posted for someone years ago, in 2008, in a private Yahoo group. The notes merely outline issues and questions various people had brought up, which some of us at the time thought needed examination and clarification. None of these talking points were posted as "facts about anything", but as "issues" which needed clarification. These notes were then re-posted into a newsgroup where a person had set up a Cooper discussion group. As I recall this, I don't think that newsgroup even survived. But nothing in my notes was meant as a statement of fact about anything - each issue brought forward was simply an issue to be discussed, examined, and nothing more...
None of this has any relevance to the world today!
None of this has any relevance whatever to the Smokin99-Blevins debate currently going on at Dropzone.
My sympathies to Smokin99 in her impossible task with the obsessive-compulsive Blevins at Dropzone!
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A crazy thing has happen at DZ tonight, ........
My sympathies to Smokin99 in her impossible task with the obsessive-compulsive Blevins at Dropzone!
But from what I understand, she may have had some wine while posting....so WIN WIN for smokin99.
The last five years at the DZ is a combination of impossible tasks. The entire "shill" comment was a direct result of Farflung noticing that his co-editors (Nelder, etc) were leaving reviews on Blast. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4129292;search_string=shill%20blast%20nelder;#4129292. Now Blevins is an expert on shill reviews, but does not explain he was dinged for it a few years ago. He just does not get it. Not now...not then...not tomorrow. Why does anyone even try? I stopped replying and posting on the DZ as a direct result of Jo and Blevins. He believes that KC is the guy and nothing, including lack of evidence, will stand in his way. It is enough to pull your hair out.
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A crazy thing has happen at DZ tonight, ........
My sympathies to Smokin99 in her impossible task with the obsessive-compulsive Blevins at Dropzone!
But from what I understand, she may have had some wine while posting....so WIN WIN for smokin99.
The last five years at the DZ is a combination of impossible tasks. The entire "shill" comment was a direct result of Farflung noticing that his co-editors (Nelder, etc) were leaving reviews on Blast. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4129292;search_string=shill%20blast%20nelder;#4129292. Now Blevins is an expert on shill reviews, but does not explain he was dinged for it a few years ago. He just does not get it. Not now...not then...not tomorrow. Why does anyone even try? I stopped replying and posting on the DZ as a direct result of Jo and Blevins. He believes that KC is the guy and nothing, including lack of evidence, will stand in his way. It is enough to pull your hair out.
The situation with 'that guy' and the other 'drone' on DZ is nothing less than a rein of terror being conducted on Dropzone by two people.
And 'that guy' called Smokin99 a "drone" ? :D
Something is broken in the management of that place.
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May I suggest more wine. Anyone want a re-fill?
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Did someone say refill?
(http://www.picgifs.com/food-and-drinks/food-and-drinks/wine/food-and-drinks-wine-633349.gif)
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I hereby nominate Smokin99 for sainthood for her SUSTAINED interventions with He-Who-Can-Not Be-Mentioned, but is affectionately known as Bobby B.
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I hereby nominate Smokin99 for sainthood for her SUSTAINED interventions with He-Who-Can-Not Be-Mentioned, but is affectionately known as Bobby B.
Bless his heart.
I think I'm about done. It was fun but then I find myself wondering what in the hell am I doing trying to be logical with this person or even try to hold him to a standard of fact. Futile. Internet asininity.
I had a co-worker once. I always swore that when God made him, he started with Barney Fife, but then took away Barney's humility, awkward naivety, and humor and, then, on top of that, gave him a double dose of know-it-all, hubris, and ignorance - yep - that would be my co-worker. The weird thing is he was actually a nice guy that would give you the shirt off his back but dang he could get on your last nerve. I guess that's what the internet takes away - when you don't have a personal interaction you really have no "nice guy" part to take the edge off the arrogance and other crap. Oh well - I'm gonna try to rise above it and just challenge the data. Wish me luck :D ;D
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He reminds me a lot of Piers Morgan.......
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He reminds me a lot of Piers Morgan.......
He reminds me of what happens when I write to one of my elected officials. They look for key words and then send out some canned response. They don't even read the content.
Smokin, I have to say you write very well. Clear, concise and always straight to the point. I admire your tenacity.
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Saint Smok.
I'm just trying it out to see how it looks...
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Hey, Ole Miss C, I hear that you've got a man hanging from a tree in Port Gibson. Your case?
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He reminds me a lot of Piers Morgan.......
He reminds me of what happens when I write to one of my elected officials. They look for key words and then send out some canned response. They don't even read the content.
Smokin, I have to say you write very well. Clear, concise and always straight to the point. I admire your tenacity.
lol...you spoke too soon. I can't hang. I am just being honest when I say I could not even read his last post.....so I guess that makes him....
the winner. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXH_FZkjTeI)
It is kind of frustrating that he is able to spout off any nonsense and no one to call him on it...... as we all slowly leave the room....but, on the other hand, it's kind of nice over here. :)
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So...I got my FOIA response back from the FBI today. Nice form letter that basically said that they had released everything that they were going to in response to an earlier FOIA and I could find it in the FBI vault. I proceeded to say a bad word to my dog. Of course, I knew that it would go no where. I'm working on my appeal -- If that doesn't work, I guess I'm gonna have to find me a lawyer and sue for equal access under the law. :) :D 8)
I got a phone call from the FAA about the one I filed with them -- in effect she told me the same thing but I told her I wanted it processed anyway.
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So...I got my FOIA response back from the FBI today. Nice form letter that basically said that they had released everything that they were going to in response to an earlier FOIA and I could find it in the FBI vault. I proceeded to say a bad word to my dog. Of course, I knew that it would go no where. I'm working on my appeal -- If that doesn't work, I guess I'm gonna have to find me a lawyer and sue for equal access under the law. :) :D 8)
I got a phone call from the FAA about the one I filed with them -- in effect she told me the same thing but I told her I wanted it processed anyway.
I would be very interested in knowing your thinking about the money find ... if you want to say. Either here on in the money thread? It's your call.
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So...I got my FOIA response back from the FBI today. Nice form letter that basically said that they had released everything that they were going to in response to an earlier FOIA and I could find it in the FBI vault. I proceeded to say a bad word to my dog. Of course, I knew that it would go no where. I'm working on my appeal -- If that doesn't work, I guess I'm gonna have to find me a lawyer and sue for equal access under the law. :) :D 8)
I got a phone call from the FAA about the one I filed with them -- in effect she told me the same thing but I told her I wanted it processed anyway.
Sometimes you wonder why they call it the FOIA? some get replies with a couple words on them, and the rest is redacted.
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Hey, Ole Miss C, I hear that you've got a man hanging from a tree in Port Gibson. Your case?
Thankfully not and thankfully for the sake of the state it looks to be a suicide and not anything more nefarious.
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copy and pasted: :o 8)
Reichenbach
Mar 23, 2015, 1:06 PM
Post #57940 of 57941 (22 views)
Re: [377] Opinions maketh the Cooperland [In reply to] Can't Post
I feel like I have to throw some things out there for discussion.
1 - I can't count the amount of times Larry Carr has said "go by the description and not the sketches." Plus a couple of pages back there Carr is accused of throwing a hoax out there. Did I read that right? Wouldn't he be under a huge amount of DZ scrutiny?
2 - *sigh* Geoffrey Gray did not write an in depth criminal investigation into DB Cooper, he wrote a book (a form of entertainment, granted well researched entertainment) on DB Cooper.
3 - When Earl Cossey said he delivered the chutes, I'm sure he didn't mean he delivered the chutes to Sea-Tac. What exactly is the basis for Cossey being called a liar?
4 - If the Amboy chute had markings, a phone call to Cossey (the FBI, chute expert) would be sufficient to determine if it was Cooper's supplied chutes.
5 - Brown contacts? This thing will never get solved. Instead of increasing the options, why can't we decrease the options?
I feel the heat about to be turned way up here, but (here goes) the DZ needs a little more non-American-paranoid-centric "the FBI, the government, are screwing us over, don't trust anything, conspiracy" in it.
A great post! - Georger
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Sigh.
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Sigh.
Why?
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?
It's sad really. Pathetic actually.
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"Sigh" means I get exasperated by Rikes' effort to sanitize Cossey. I challenged him on his comments and he has yet to answer me.
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?
It's sad really. Pathetic actually.
So, OMC, why did the cigarette butts go missing? Just a "Shit Happens" moment in the world's largest LE agency?
Let's turn the conspiracy thing around - if not a conspiracy-influenced investigation, what does the Norjak case tell you about the FBI?
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?
It's sad really. Pathetic actually.
Let's say a conspiracy-at-work in Norjak is pathetic, OMC.
So, what does a conspiracy actually look like?
Have you ever seen one? Have you ever had to tangle with one? Have you ever been a target of a conspiracy?
Even at the itsy-bitsy local level? Your cops never planted evidence, coerced witnesses, or lied on the witness stand? Did you ever have to clean up a mess at a Sheriff's office? Or hold your nose?
Retired FBI agent Steve Moore has made a famous comment in the Amanda Knox case: "The FBI has a saying, 'We can convict anyone; the innocent just take a little longer.'" Any comment?
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?
It's sad really. Pathetic actually.
So, OMC, how do you read the behavior of the FBI in the Marla Cooper case? Do you concur that Uncle LD is the "most promising" suspect in Norjak?
If so, any thoughts on why the Bureau dropped Uncle LD and walked away from Marla? If they failed to collect sufficient evidence, don't you think they should have made that determination BEFORE they made such as dramatic announcement?
Or did they just get a little over-excited?
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?
It's sad really. Pathetic actually.
How would you assess Earl Cossey's role in the DB Cooper case, OMC?
1. An asshole with a big mouth?
2. A guy who just got himself quoted out of context by a bunch of pin-headed reporters?
3. A guy who got caught up in the moment, the bright lights, and FBI agents asking him for his opinions and he started stretching the truth a little?
4. A guy who told one little white lie, which led to another white lie, then to another and another, and after 40 years he told some whoppers?
5. All that skydiving made him nutsy, and why anyone believed him is beyond comprehension!
6. Cossey who? Oh, you mean the rigger? What's he got to do with anything?
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?
It's sad really. Pathetic actually.
So, OMC, why did the cigarette butts go missing? Just a "Shit Happens" moment in the world's largest LE agency?
Let's turn the conspiracy thing around - if not a conspiracy-influenced investigation, what does the Norjak case tell you about the FBI?
Nobody including Carr says they are lost! Lost where?
But more to the point, you don't know, so why say [this or that or another thing]! Why not just say the butts were traded for a bottle of wine, or better yet do a 'Blevins' and claim the butts were lost at Paradise Park after the FBI gave them to Kenny BEFORE THE HIJACK EVEN HAPPENED! Duhhhhhhhh. That would be a hate-based allegory for the mind readers and snake handlers in your audience? ;)
Why not say: "we dn't know'.
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?
It's sad really. Pathetic actually.
So, OMC, why did the cigarette butts go missing? Just a "Shit Happens" moment in the world's largest LE agency?
Let's turn the conspiracy thing around - if not a conspiracy-influenced investigation, what does the Norjak case tell you about the FBI?
Nobody including Carr says they are lost! Lost where?
But more to the point, you don't know, so why say [this or that or another thing]! Why not just say the butts were traded for a bottle of wine, or better yet do a 'Blevins' and claim the butts were lost at Paradise Park after the FBI gave them to Kenny BEFORE THE HIJACK EVEN HAPPENED! Duhhhhhhhh. That would be a hate-based allegory for the mind readers and snake handlers in your audience? ;)
Why not say: "we dn't know'.
Thanks, Georger.
Some many stories get twisted and people just accept them. I read in Gray's book that the cigarette butts were lost, so I had to check DZ. As usual, you are right. Here is Carr's comment:
The cigarette butts were never in the Seattle office, they were recovered by the Las Vegas office and sent to Quantico for analysis. After processing they were returned to Las Vegas for storage. So the butts told their story back at the lab, they gave all they could give and could give no more. It's not like they were lost and never processed.
They may still be in Las Vegas for all I know, I can't find the paper work that state the items were disposed of, nor can I find the butts. Alas, another mystery to the mysteries.
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Do people really believe there is some massive coverup with the government actively running interference over a 40 year old skyjacking?
It's sad really. Pathetic actually.
So, OMC, why did the cigarette butts go missing? Just a "Shit Happens" moment in the world's largest LE agency?
Let's turn the conspiracy thing around - if not a conspiracy-influenced investigation, what does the Norjak case tell you about the FBI?
Nobody including Carr says they are lost! Lost where?
But more to the point, you don't know, so why say [this or that or another thing]! Why not just say the butts were traded for a bottle of wine, or better yet do a 'Blevins' and claim the butts were lost at Paradise Park after the FBI gave them to Kenny BEFORE THE HIJACK EVEN HAPPENED! Duhhhhhhhh. That would be a hate-based allegory for the mind readers and snake handlers in your audience? ;)
Why not say: "we dn't know'.
Thanks, Georger.
Some many stories get twisted and people just accept them. I read in Gray's book that the cigarette butts were lost, so I had to check DZ. As usual, you are right. Here is Carr's comment:
The cigarette butts were never in the Seattle office, they were recovered by the Las Vegas office and sent to Quantico for analysis. After processing they were returned to Las Vegas for storage. So the butts told their story back at the lab, they gave all they could give and could give no more. It's not like they were lost and never processed.
They may still be in Las Vegas for all I know, I can't find the paper work that state the items were disposed of, nor can I find the butts. Alas, another mystery to the mysteries.
The only caveat is, a later dna analysis would be better than the old one - if the butts can be located if they still exist.
Only an FBI search of the paper work can resolve this. The butts were transferred to Quantico for analysis. Quantico could have transferred them back to Las Vegas or to Washington. Las Vegas could have transferred them to Washington or still have them. If they were ever disposed of there would be paper work on that, but one has to question evidence in a major case being disposed of. It is a tangled web.
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but... Dropzone is gone...forever!
"sangiro" just shut it down permanently, sighting the bickering of 3 or 4 individuals as the reason for it's demise. It looks like "thedbcooperforum" is now the only game in town.
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FLASH - BULLETIN:
SANGIRO HAS LOCKED THE DROPZONE COOPER THREAD!!!!!!!!!!
THIS HAPPENED JUST A FEW MINUTES AGO.
SOMETHING HAS FINALLY GONE RIGHT THERE!
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FLASH - BULLETIN:
SANGIRO HAS LOCKED THE DROPZONE COOPER THREAD!!!!!!!!!!
THIS HAPPENED JUST A FEW MINUTES AGO.
SOMETHING HAS FINALLY GONE RIGHT THERE!
Wow, that's a stunning move. A couple of poisonous personalities ran that place into the ground. Dropzone did keep a couple of those wackos busy, and I hope they don't show up over here.
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That's news! I was very surprised to see the DZ shut down. Thank Gawd we have this forum.
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WOW, I never really thought it would happen. so, "Numero Uno" bit the dust :'(
All the information is safe for the time being. where will Bobby push his books now? I feel sorry for Jo, but it is what it is....
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but... Dropzone is gone...forever!
Any place would of been ok, it's kind of big news in a bad way, but who didn't see it coming. personally, it should have been locked a couple years ago. they made zero attempts to control that thread. they allowed it to happen IMHO. I think the last warning to anyone was almost a year ago! I believe it was Robert B. to boot!!
I believe a moment of silence is in order :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Xrlf3taEo
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Well, here it is! The final notice to all at Dropzone! The thread is closed.
sangiro
Head Honcho
Mar 31, 2015, 9:41 AM
Post #58139 of 58139 (86 views)
Re: [RobertMBlevins] Another Gem by Bruce Smith, Rex Magistrum [In reply to]
Folks - this thread has run its course on Dropzone.com. It has long turned into a bickering platform for 3 or 4 individuals. While we've tolerated this for a long time it has simply reached the point of diminishing returns. The number of PM complaints we have to deal with from the few members involved in this discussion about the conduct of the others is completely disproportional to the value we get from hosting this.
Please feel free to set up a discussion on one of the many free forums out there like:
https://groups.google.com/
Once done you're welcome to send me a URL and I'll make one final post to this thread to point others to the new discussion.
No, PMing me will not get me to reopen this thread.
:) :)
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I felt like it was coming- - I just hope they leave the locked threads up like they did the original one after locking it - because there are a couple of pages with some worthwhile info. :)
I don't have plans to join another google group -- even to keep folks honest -- I feel like it will just be more of the same -- so Shutter you will just have to keep this one open. :)
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Well crap....I did it again. I posted on your post....sorry :'(
Yep, I think we will stay in business a while longer ;D I don't think they are worried about bandwidth, so the thread will probably remain. it's a shame it had to come to an end, but we all seen it coming. I'm getting a flashback of Charlie Sheen at the end of Platoon. his closing speech ;D ;D
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So, the Cooper thread has died....and the Kenny Christiansen myth has died with it. That's the only place it still had any life. Finally, Kenny can rest in peace.
I'd say RB and Jo are the only ones who join the Google group.
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So, the Cooper thread has died....and the Kenny Christiansen myth has died with it. That's the only place it still had any life. Finally, Kenny can rest in peace.
I'd say RB and Jo are the only ones who join the Google group.
I'm sure Robert will reach as far as he can to try and get something going. he tried once on his website. it had a couple comments, and died. even as nasty as Jo can be sometimes, I do feel sorry that she has no place to go. Jo just needs a place to carry on, perhaps a Google group will fit her needs. her attack on Vicki blew anything happening here...sadly.
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I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, but... Dropzone is gone...forever!
Any place would of been ok, it's kind of big news in a bad way, but who didn't see it coming. personally, it should have been locked a couple years ago. they made zero attempts to control that thread. they allowed it to happen IMHO. I think the last warning to anyone was almost a year ago! I believe it was Robert B. to boot!!
I believe a moment of silence is in order :(
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-Xrlf3taEo
Thank You. A fitting tribute to a grand old lady of forums.
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So, the Cooper thread has died....and the Kenny Christiansen myth has died with it. That's the only place it still had any life. Finally, Kenny can rest in peace.
I'd say RB and Jo are the only ones who join the Google group.
I'm sure Robert will reach as far as he can to try and get something going. he tried once on his website. it had a couple comments, and died. even as nasty as Jo can be sometimes, I do feel sorry that she has no place to go. Jo just needs a place to carry on, perhaps a Google group will fit her needs. her attack on Vicki blew anything happening here...sadly.
Yes...Robert has started the DB Cooper group on Google.
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/dbcooper
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That didn't take long, did it :o
To top it off, he's not being honest about why the thread was locked. it wasn't because of "tens of thousands of postings"....
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It just seemed like ten-thousand postings.....
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That didn't take long, did it :o
To top it off, he's not being honest about why the thread was locked. it wasn't because of "tens of thousands of postings"....
I saw that and so will others. Liars are liars.
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So, the Cooper thread has died....and the Kenny Christiansen myth has died with it. That's the only place it still had any life. Finally, Kenny can rest in peace.
I'd say RB and Jo are the only ones who join the Google group.
I'm sure Robert will reach as far as he can to try and get something going. he tried once on his website. it had a couple comments, and died. even as nasty as Jo can be sometimes, I do feel sorry that she has no place to go. Jo just needs a place to carry on, perhaps a Google group will fit her needs. her attack on Vicki blew anything happening here...sadly.
Dont worry about Jo Weber. She always lands somewhere. She just wont ever have the audience she had. All things must end.
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Not that I think Duane is a good Cooper candidate... but why didn't Jo ever go through the process of collecting all the evidence, such as it is, and collecting it into a book?
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Not that I think Duane is a good Cooper candidate... but why didn't Jo ever go through the process of collecting all the evidence, such as it is, and collecting it into a book?
Because she never had any real evidence and everyone she tried to work with, or tried to work with her, ran screaming to the hills to get away from her - that's why! She pushed everything and everyone too far. She had no actual evidence in the first place.
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Jo is Jo, meaning her interests lie far beyond solving the case, organizing her information, or writing a book. What her primary mission is unknown to me and anybody I know.
Part of her passion may be fueled by loneliness, but there is something else. She dug into Duane and DB Cooper in a huge way even when her husband Jim asked her not to. In response, she had to sneak around the guy. Why did she do that? To feel important?
Does she like playing mind games with everyone in Cooper World? Is it an addiction? A rush? Or is someone paying her to do it? Where does she get all of her information? How did she know where Tina was before me and Galen? Why do so many Norjak principals pay her homage?
Jo is one of the mysteries of Norjak.
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Jo is Jo, meaning her interests lie far beyond solving the case, organizing her information, or writing a book. What her primary mission is unknown to me and anybody I know.
Part of her passion may be fueled by loneliness, but there is something else. She dug into Duane and DB Cooper in a huge way even when her husband Jim asked her not to. In response, she had to sneak around the guy. Why did she do that? To feel important?
Does she like playing mind games with everyone in Cooper World? Is it an addiction? A rush? Or is someone paying her to do it? Where does she get all of her information? How did she know where Tina was before me and Galen? Why do so many Norjak principals pay her homage?
Jo is one of the mysteries of Norjak.
IMO Jo Weber is no mystery. You are engaging in mythology. More than 80% of her socalled 'information' about the Cooper case has been shown to be flat wrong or distorted. She found Tina before you and Galen because she had been looking feverishly longer harder and finally got a lucky tip! Some who know her and people who knew Duane claim that she started the Duane myth in order to promote her Realty business. And the rest may be a compulsive-obsessive personality disorder fueled by deep seated inferiority needing approval and attention. More than half of everything she has ever said or done is about herself seeking approval and attention and sympathy and exaggerating all of her personal claims vs. anything having to do Duane or the Cooper case! Maybe you missed that part?
:D
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More than half of everything she has ever said or done is about herself seeking approval and attention and sympathy and exaggerating all of her personal claims vs. anything having to do Duane or the Cooper case! Maybe you missed that part?
I've admitted, on several occasions, that I pretty much avoid the DZ Cooper thread altogether... ;D
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A recent article:
Article/the-link-between-d-b-cooper-and-andreas-lubitz.html (http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/the-link-between-d-b-cooper-and-andreas-lubitz.html)
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A recent article:
Article/the-link-between-d-b-cooper-and-andreas-lubitz.html (http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/the-link-between-d-b-cooper-and-andreas-lubitz.html)
Quite a stretch. Is there a link btwn Cooper and Napoleon, Julius Caesar, Mickey Mouse, and Martha Stewart?
Consider recipes in common! http://www.marthastewart.com/
;) :D
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A recent article:
Article/the-link-between-d-b-cooper-and-andreas-lubitz.html (http://www.cafebabel.co.uk/article/the-link-between-d-b-cooper-and-andreas-lubitz.html)
A pathological ego problem, or something along that line, is probably correct. Six years after Martin Luther King, Jr., was assassinated, his mother was also shot and killed. I happened to be living in the area that the murderer came from (Ohio) so the local media paid quite a bit of attention to the matter. The murderer was caught on the spot (which I think was in the King's church) with a cat-eating grin on his face and about the first thing he said was, "Now everyone will know who I am".
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Any "Mad Men" fans out there? Word on the street is the show could end with Don Draper anonymously walking out of the back of a 727. Let's not forget the "Mad Men" logo.
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I've never seen it, but it's all over the internet about Draper.
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Interesting...tonight was the first episode of the final season. There are six episodes after tonight. They put little clues in the show to figure out the date of the show. The last episode from last year ended right after the moon landing -- July 20, 1969. In tonight's episode, it showed a Nixon speech where he announces he is pulling 150,000 troops out of Viet Nam. I googled that and that speech was April 20, 1970.
That doesn't tell us the date when it will end -- but I would have expected the setting to be in 1971 if Don Draper was going to bail out as DB Cooper.
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That rumor has been out there for a couple of years I think. I've never seen the show. I never watched "Prison Break" either, but seems like I read that one of the inmates on that show was DB Cooper who was in prison for another crime.
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I was discussing with another poster earlier about how things get lost in the threads. actually he brought it up, anyway I was thinking of starting a website to load up important facts about the case that we discuss here, but tend to get lost in the pages. I believe I can put the site on this server. it's part of the plan I have.
It could be a permanent quick reference of things.
Thoughts?
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I was discussing with another poster earlier about how things get lost in the threads. actually he brought it up, anyway I was thinking of starting a website to load up important facts about the case that we discuss here, but tend to get lost in the pages. I believe I can put the site on this server. it's part of the plan I have.
It could be a permanent quick reference of things.
Thoughts?
That is a great idea! And make sure that all discussing of things on that site is done here so they won't get buried in the commentary again. Maybe I will have some things to consider for that site once I start writing again.
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I was discussing with another poster earlier about how things get lost in the threads. actually he brought it up, anyway I was thinking of starting a website to load up important facts about the case that we discuss here, but tend to get lost in the pages. I believe I can put the site on this server. it's part of the plan I have.
It could be a permanent quick reference of things.
Thoughts?
That is a great idea! And make sure that all discussing of things on that site is done here so they won't get buried in the commentary again. Maybe I will have some things to consider for that site once I start writing again.
I'm glad it makes sense. we are getting big enough as it is (pages) when you have to search out things, it's time to consider options. everything can be categorized for quick reference. I believe it can be a sister page to this site. I'll have to check.
I think I will contact "Skhilled" for advanced help in this. he's pretty good on this stuff. light years ahead of me :P
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I was discussing with another poster earlier about how things get lost in the threads. actually he brought it up, anyway I was thinking of starting a website to load up important facts about the case that we discuss here, but tend to get lost in the pages. I believe I can put the site on this server. it's part of the plan I have.
It could be a permanent quick reference of things.
Thoughts?
That is a great idea! And make sure that all discussing of things on that site is done here so they won't get buried in the commentary again. Maybe I will have some things to consider for that site once I start writing again.
Ok, we are a go for launching a website!!!
I could use some idea's on how to structure it. I looked over the site builder and understand how it works, but I need some input. I know I will have a page for Vicki, and NMI to place important information, but any idea's will help me in formatting a style...pages, categories etc....
NMI, did you build your site?
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I was discussing with another poster earlier about how things get lost in the threads. actually he brought it up, anyway I was thinking of starting a website to load up important facts about the case that we discuss here, but tend to get lost in the pages. I believe I can put the site on this server. it's part of the plan I have.
It could be a permanent quick reference of things.
Thoughts?
That is a great idea! And make sure that all discussing of things on that site is done here so they won't get buried in the commentary again. Maybe I will have some things to consider for that site once I start writing again.
Ok, we are a go for launching a website!!!
I could use some idea's on how to structure it. I looked over the site builder and understand how it works, but I need some input. I know I will have a page for Vicki, and NMI to place important information, but any idea's will help me in formatting a style...pages, categories etc....
NMI, did you build your site?
sounds ok.
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I'm messing around with the site builder on different templates. I just picked this one out of a couple hundred for a test. this took about 20 minutes to make. this will disappear in 24 hours. it's only a temp file....
http://builder.infinitysrv.com/data/c/7/c768bd60.test.test/out/1/
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NMI, did you build your site?
Yes. I use Moonfruit.com. It's pretty easy to create and edit, once you get the hang of it. Here are links to my site, and my friend's site:
http://www.michiganmysteries.com (http://www.michiganmysteries.com/)
http://www.chrisdoyal.com (http://www.chrisdoyal.com/)
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NMI, did you build your site?
Yes. I use Moonfruit.com. It's pretty easy to create and edit, once you get the hang of it. Here are links to my site, and my friend's site:
http://www.michiganmysteries.com (http://www.michiganmysteries.com/)
http://www.chrisdoyal.com (http://www.chrisdoyal.com/)
Thanks for the info, but I figured out my site builder that comes with this server. I was hoping to get some pointers in advance. I don't have to worry now about possibly pointing the site, or new website to this server. it has all the tools needed built into my Cpanel.
I think the best thing to do is make it a sub domain?
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I was reading two books based on D. B. Cooper: D. B. Cooper What Really Happened and D. B. Cooper The Real McCoy. I noticed that a lot of the information presented about the actual skyjacking contradicted wasn't present and a lot of the info I wanted wasn't even presented. I was wondering where I could find information on what really happened. All I could think of was the interviews with the plane crew and passengers, although to my knowledge these are not public. Any ideas?
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Hi Josh, welcome to the forum. the best answer I have at the moment is, welcome to the club. this case can get confusing, but we have a lot of people here that can answer any questions you might have.
Also, I will be moving this thread to the general questions about Cooper area. I'm trying to keep the amount of threads down to a minimum.
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We have a guy here by the name of Bruce Smith. he just wrote a book that might interest you. you can find it here on the "Book Discussion About DB Cooper" thread.
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I was reading two books based on D. B. Cooper: D. B. Cooper What Really Happened and D. B. Cooper The Real McCoy. I noticed that a lot of the information presented about the actual skyjacking contradicted wasn't present and a lot of the info I wanted wasn't even presented. I was wondering where I could find information on what really happened. All I could think of was the interviews with the plane crew and passengers, although to my knowledge these are not public. Any ideas?
What is the info you seek?
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My book has a complete interview with passenger Bill Mitchell. I also share lengthy tidbits of my 70-minute conversation with Bill Rataczak. I also chatted with passenger Almstad, and spoke with the family of Robert Gregory.
Plus, I detail at great length my efforts to speak with Tina Mucklow and Florence Shaffner.
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I was reading two books based on D. B. Cooper: D. B. Cooper What Really Happened and D. B. Cooper The Real McCoy. I noticed that a lot of the information presented about the actual skyjacking contradicted wasn't present and a lot of the info I wanted wasn't even presented. I was wondering where I could find information on what really happened. All I could think of was the interviews with the plane crew and passengers, although to my knowledge these are not public. Any ideas?
Josh, both books you mention are written by cops, and you have just experienced one of the troubling dynamics of law enforcement, especially in the DB Cooper case. Basically, cops don't think their shit stinks, so what they write is the only stuff worth knowing about. Wait until you read Himmelsbach!
So, if you read their books with that perspective, and are willing to look elsewhere for a more comprehensive picture, then your abovementioned works are valuable, especially Calame and Rhodes, which I consider a remarkable addition to the Cooper literature. Nobody in LE is writing with such courage and delivering such searing information.
To wit: Rhodes writes that Cooper agents were under the influence of a post-hypnotic suggestion when he interviewed them!
So, that is why guys like me, a humble journalist, still has a job. We tend to tell a fuller story.
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I was reading two books based on D. B. Cooper: D. B. Cooper What Really Happened and D. B. Cooper The Real McCoy. I noticed that a lot of the information presented about the actual skyjacking contradicted wasn't present and a lot of the info I wanted wasn't even presented. I was wondering where I could find information on what really happened. All I could think of was the interviews with the plane crew and passengers, although to my knowledge these are not public. Any ideas?
Josh, both books you mention are written by cops, and you have just experienced one of the troubling dynamics of law enforcement, especially in the DB Cooper case. Basically, cops don't think their shit stinks, so what they write is the only stuff worth knowing about. Wait until you read Himmelsbach!
So, if you read their books with that perspective, and are willing to look elsewhere for a more comprehensive picture, then your abovementioned works are valuable, especially Calame and Rhodes, which I consider a remarkable addition to the Cooper literature. Nobody in LE is writing with such courage and delivering such searing information.
To wit: Rhodes writes that Cooper agents were under the influence of a post-hypnotic suggestion when he interviewed them!
So, that is why guys like me, a humble journalist, still has a job. We tend to tell a fuller story.
How true! I believe you are the only Cooper writer to even mention "remote viewing". :)
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I was reading two books based on D. B. Cooper: D. B. Cooper What Really Happened and D. B. Cooper The Real McCoy. I noticed that a lot of the information presented about the actual skyjacking contradicted wasn't present and a lot of the info I wanted wasn't even presented. I was wondering where I could find information on what really happened. All I could think of was the interviews with the plane crew and passengers, although to my knowledge these are not public. Any ideas?
Josh, both books you mention are written by cops, and you have just experienced one of the troubling dynamics of law enforcement, especially in the DB Cooper case. Basically, cops don't think their shit stinks, so what they write is the only stuff worth knowing about. Wait until you read Himmelsbach!
So, if you read their books with that perspective, and are willing to look elsewhere for a more comprehensive picture, then your abovementioned works are valuable, especially Calame and Rhodes, which I consider a remarkable addition to the Cooper literature. Nobody in LE is writing with such courage and delivering such searing information.
To wit: Rhodes writes that Cooper agents were under the influence of a post-hypnotic suggestion when he interviewed them!
So, that is why guys like me, a humble journalist, still has a job. We tend to tell a fuller story.
Bullshit. You are an IDIOT! ;D
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There is always that perspective, too, Josh.
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Can any of the people who have made deliberate water jumps answer these questions:
1. Will a back pack or reserve pack, completely unopened, float by itself if it lands in water and is not attached to anything?
2. If so, how long will it float under the above conditions? It is understood that it will eventually get saturated with water and then sink.
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Can any of the people who have made deliberate water jumps answer these questions:
1. Will a back pack or reserve pack, completely unopened, float by itself if it lands in water and is not attached to anything?
2. If so, how long will it float under the above conditions? It is understood that it will eventually get saturated with water and then sink.
That's a great question. I tend to think the chute packs and money bag would be negatively buoyant after the air is forced out of them. The Cooper suspects body would probably be negatively buoyant also, because the impact would drive the air from his lungs and because of his body type. It sounds like he didn't have much body fat, and muscle is about 3 time denser than fat, so in short, muscle tends to sink and fat tends to float.
We do need to find out if the chute packs are buoyant though.
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Can any of the people who have made deliberate water jumps answer these questions:
1. Will a back pack or reserve pack, completely unopened, float by itself if it lands in water and is not attached to anything?
2. If so, how long will it float under the above conditions? It is understood that it will eventually get saturated with water and then sink.
That's a great question. I tend to think the chute packs and money bag would be negatively buoyant after the air is forced out of them. The Cooper suspects body would probably be negatively buoyant also, because the impact would drive the air from his lungs and because of his body type. It sounds like he didn't have much body fat, and muscle is about 3 time denser than fat, so in short, muscle tends to sink and fat tends to float.
We do need to find out if the chute packs are buoyant though.
And the money bag itself was probably buoyant for a short time. It was supposedly made out of heavy canvas, tightly bound by Cooper, and had a total weight of less than 25 pounds.
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Wouldn't it be something if Coop and the money ended up in the Pacific Gyre.
Off to Midway! Inspect that debris!!!
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They can disappear quickly in the river....
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1243&dat=19720902&id=JlNYAAAAIBAJ&sjid=g_cDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5252,4453834&hl=en
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The thing that keeps slipping my mind is the Cooper suspect probably lost his shoes upon exiting flight 305. So while the "survived the jump" vs. "died jumping" debate rages, the question remains, if the Cooper suspect survived the jump, how did he escape while merely wearing socks in the wilderness on a cold, wet night?
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The thing that keeps slipping my mind is the Cooper suspect probably lost his shoes upon exiting flight 305. So while the "survived the jump" vs. "died jumping" debate rages, the question remains, if the Cooper suspect survived the jump, how did he escape while merely wearing socks in the wilderness on a cold, wet night?
Has anyone shown what type of "loafers" he actually was thought to have on? I've heard people speculate, but has anyone nailed down what they thought he wore,other than the descriptions from Flo & Tina?
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My assessment of the jump and footwear is this:
There are three basic points of view that are expressed by Cooper aficionados:
1. Those folks who view Cooper as somebody like themselves. They say, I would have died if I jumped without jump boots, so Cooper must have died. Jerry Thomas is the leading advocate for this perspective.
2. The journalistic point of view, which holds that most skydivers feel that Cooper could have made the jump successfully because they know of many instances in their skydiving careers where people have jumped successfully naked, in flip-flops, sandals, loafers, sneakers, in the snow, in the rain, into the jungle, into thick forests. Therefore, footwear is not an issue.
3. The third group doesn't like #2 for a variety of personal reasons, such as they know of a skydiver who thinks Cooper was a whuffo and died in the jump, or don't want Cooper to have succeeded because they want to support other agendas, such as the FBI would never lie to them.
There are many facets of Norjak that subscribe to these dynamics, and you can substitute shoes of any number of aspects of the skyjacking and get the same type of answers. Such as: Cooper was underdressed, it was too cold, the wind chill was too severe, he picked the wrong chute, etc.
Bottom Line: Why are the shoes an issue for you?
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Another way to frame this discussion is:
Why do you think Richard LaPoint made it to the ground successfully? Assess that jump and you have a lot of answers for the Cooper jump.
Here are some possibilities:
1. Luck?
2. Total Dumb Luck
3. Divine Intervention.
4. Cowboy boots are the perfect footwear to wear for a jump - see he had boots!!!
5. The snow cushioned his impact.
6. It was so cold he never felt the impact of hitting the ground.
7. He was wishing so hard that he had a sweater or a coat that he forgot to worry about hitting the ground.
8. He was PTSD from Vietnam anyway, so go figure.
9. He was on drugs, and oxycodone will let you do anything.
10. Jumping out of a 727 in Colorado in January is ideal country and clime for a skydive - if you're wearing cowboy clothes - so what's the problem? Cowboys are bullet-proof, at least in Colorado, didn't you know?
11. He was so excited about making a quick 50 grand and dreaming of Hawaii that he didn't sweat it, which proves the mind-over-matter theory of existence.
12. The way the flight attendant looked at him when she handed over the money made him forget ALL of his problems... (see #11.)
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Bottom Line: Why are the shoes an issue for you?
Remote view yourself walking through the woods while wearing only socks on your feet. It's somewhere around 40 degrees and wet out. Are you making good time?
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1. Those folks who view Cooper as somebody like themselves. They say, I would have died if I jumped without jump boots, so Cooper must have died. Jerry Thomas is the leading advocate for this perspective.
2. The journalistic point of view, which holds that most skydivers feel that Cooper could have made the jump successfully because they know of many instances in their skydiving careers where people have jumped successfully naked, in flip-flops, sandals, loafers, sneakers, in the snow, in the rain, into the jungle, into thick forests. Therefore, footwear is not an issue.
3. The third group doesn't like #2 for a variety of personal reasons, such as they know of a skydiver who thinks Cooper was a whuffo and died in the jump, or don't want Cooper to have succeeded because they want to support other agendas, such as the FBI would never lie to them.
I don't agree that #1 would seal the deal, but it sure didn't help if he survived.
#2 could have a lot of bad points as well. we are speculating he could easily do this simply because others have. I know of a MMA fighter who use to train in the desert all the time, but he ended up dead out there. isn't it speculation to state he was an avid jumper? if he did know the reserve was a dummy, how would he have known nothing was wrong with the rest of the gear?
I think his survival probably would depend on where he landed, but obviously nobody has that answer. was he close to a road, or shelter etc.
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Honestly, you'd be surprised how well your feet can handle difficult conditions while barefoot. It's like we evolved those in the absence of shoes. Lots of local outdoorsey types hike barefoot (I guess it's a hipster thing) and I hate wearing shoes. It's actually one of the tests I'd like to try, to see how far I could hike in those conditions in stocking feet. I've walked several rounds of golf barefoot (maybe four miles of walking total), but that was in good weather.
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Honestly, you'd be surprised how well your feet can handle difficult conditions while barefoot. It's like we evolved those in the absence of shoes. Lots of local outdoorsey types hike barefoot (I guess it's a hipster thing) and I hate wearing shoes. It's actually one of the tests I'd like to try, to see how far I could hike in those conditions in stocking feet. I've walked several rounds of golf barefoot (maybe four miles of walking total), but that was in good weather.
Good point. After my feet spend the winter in warm socks and boots, the first few times I go barefoot, I can barely walk on the driveway. After a week, the bottoms of my feet toughen up and I can walk over all kinds of crap (sticks, gravel). Numb feet because of cold might sound like a blessing at first, but walking through the woods, even on a path (if you can find one in the dark) would become quite treacherous and I tend to think injury would be imminent.
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Honestly, you'd be surprised how well your feet can handle difficult conditions while barefoot. It's like we evolved those in the absence of shoes. Lots of local outdoorsey types hike barefoot (I guess it's a hipster thing) and I hate wearing shoes. It's actually one of the tests I'd like to try, to see how far I could hike in those conditions in stocking feet. I've walked several rounds of golf barefoot (maybe four miles of walking total), but that was in good weather.
Good point. After my feet spend the winter in warm socks and boots, the first few times I go barefoot, I can barely walk on the driveway. After a week, the bottoms of my feet toughen up and I can walk over all kinds of crap (sticks, gravel). Numb feet because of cold might sound like a blessing at first, but walking through the woods, even on a path (if you can find one in the dark) would become quite treacherous and I tend to think injury would be imminent.
Yeah, his best chance, assuming no shoes, would be to stay put for the night (wrapped in the parachute, assuming it wasn't stuck up a tree) and to make some kind of improvised foot wrapping with the stuff he had on him in the morning. Tough situation, and good luck hitchhiking with shoes made of parachute.
I know I'm generally on the "Cooper made it" side, but even so, it woulda been a heluva survival challenge.
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REF: Loss of shoes by the hijacker. Bottom line is the terrain in the area that I believe cooper would have landed would have kept him from making much headway in getting out of the area. He would have had a hard landing and would have injured his feet. If any of you have the opportunity to visit the area you will quickly understand why.Remember even McCoy was injured during his jump with a familiar chute and he landed in the desert. Cooper wasn't even familiar with the chute he chose to use it was modified by Cossey and was very difficult to deploy. My opinion is still the same Cooper never got the chute opened. Jerry
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Jerry Thomas You bring up the phony story that DB used the chute that was modified by Cossey. That is totally false as DB got the two chutes that were provided by Norm Hayden (his two acrobatic safety chutes). That phoney story came from Cossey who I think was trying to throw the FBI off as he could have been part of the crime (one of the ground men). Cossey never got the story right on the chutes and continued to think he provided the two "back chutes".
On the subject of loafers that DB wore, take a look at the picture below of Sheridan Peterson's loafers he wore for the advertisement in the Boeing News paper just 8 years before Norjack and dressed just like DB did for the caper. Another note is that two Ace Bandages each wrapped around a loafer wold have held his shoes on and strengthen his ankles per Allan McCarther the Pres of the Boeing Skydiving Club that Peterson started.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Jerry Thomas You bring up the phony story that DB used the chute that was modified by Cossey. That is totally false as DB got the two chutes that were provided by Norm Hayden (his two acrobatic safety chutes). That phoney story came from Cossey who I think was trying to throw the FBI off as he could have been part of the crime (one of the ground men). Cossey never got the story right on the chutes and continued to think he provided the two "back chutes".
On the subject of loafers that DB wore, take a look at the picture below of Sheridan Peterson's loafers he wore for the advertisement in the Boeing News paper just 8 years before Norjack and dressed just like DB did for the caper. Another note is that two Ace Bandages each wrapped around a loafer wold have held his shoes on and strengthen his ankles per Allan McCarther the Pres of the Boeing Skydiving Club that Peterson started.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
;D Your photos are too dark to see anything. Here.
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Bottom Line: Why are the shoes an issue for you?
Remote view yourself walking through the woods while wearing only socks on your feet. It's somewhere around 40 degrees and wet out. Are you making good time?
That's what levitation is for!
Another option is that DBC took the reserve chute, cut it up for booties, and stuffed them with bundles of twenties, so he had superb mukluks to stomp through the mud. Saving his loafers for his stroll out of the woods....
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Georger and Jerry Thomas Thanks Georger for making the shoes lighter so the details can be seen. It is just a portion of the Boeing News photo that was used for the add. If I could reduce the resolution of the photo I could attach it to my post here. Possibly I could send the whole photo to you Georger and you could post a reduced resolution of the photo. It shows Sheridan all spread-out with his hands in the air like a skydiving position but in his trademark suit just like DB Cooper but 8 years before the Norjak Caper. Jerry, sorry to call the Cossey Chute story a phoney, but it is as DB received the two chutes from Norm Hayden who told me the two chutes were alike and in two different carriers (sports type and Military type). Jerry I would like to get together with you sometime for lunch on me at my YC and with Bruce Smith. I think we have some common items to discuss that might be of interest to you.
PS the double photo's of the shoes was due to my attempt to lighten the photo and it did not work. You were able to do it and thanks again.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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On the subject of loafers that DB wore, take a look at the picture below of Sheridan Peterson's loafers he wore for the advertisement in the Boeing News paper just 8 years before Norjack and dressed just like DB did for the caper.
Those are photos of a shoe, not a loafer.
Let me expound. The Cooper suspect's footwear was described as loafers, which are a type of shoe. Loafers are basically defined as a low leather step in shoe, which resembles a moccasin with a flat heel. They are not a lace up dress shoe, which would be referred to as a "shoe".
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Georger and Jerry Thomas Thanks Georger for making the shoes lighter so the details can be seen. It is just a portion of the Boeing News photo that was used for the add. If I could reduce the resolution of the photo I could attach it to my post here. Possibly I could send the whole photo to you Georger and you could post a reduced resolution of the photo. It shows Sheridan all spread-out with his hands in the air like a skydiving position but in his trademark suit just like DB Cooper but 8 years before the Norjak Caper. Jerry, sorry to call the Cossey Chute story a phoney, but it is as DB received the two chutes from Norm Hayden who told me the two chutes were alike and in two different carriers (sports type and Military type). Jerry I would like to get together with you sometime for lunch on me at my YC and with Bruce Smith. I think we have some common items to discuss that might be of interest to you.
PS the double photo's of the shoes was due to my attempt to lighten the photo and it did not work. You were able to do it and thanks again.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
you have incoming ...
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On the subject of loafers that DB wore, take a look at the picture below of Sheridan Peterson's loafers he wore for the advertisement in the Boeing News paper just 8 years before Norjack and dressed just like DB did for the caper.
Those are photos of a shoe, not a loafer.
Let me expound. The Cooper suspect's footwear was described as loafers, which are a type of shoe. Loafers are basically defined as a low leather step in shoe, which resembles a moccasin with a flat heel. They are not a lace up dress shoe, which would be referred to as a "shoe".
Here is a penny loafer ... loafers are a slip on style shoe with no laces. An oxford dress shoe has laces.
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Sailshaw: About the chutes and shoes my info comes directly from Ralph and the FBI. Phony I don't think so. Still you didn't upset me at all you voiced your view on the subject, I've known you for a number of years now and you have always been straight up in your opinion. I respect that. Your right we do need to get together soon I plan on being over in the Shelton area and Forks this summer. I need to spend some time at my place on the ocean its 24mi south of forks by ruby beach. In Shelton theirs 20 acres there I'm looking at buying. Think I might retire again Naaa that won't happen but Shelton is one of the places I went to high school and a lot of my old friends still live there. Jerry
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George You show a photo of a Penney Loafer and a Dress Shoe. We also call the shoe that Sheridan wore a Loafer as it has just three lace holes and can be slipped into/outof if the laces are not too tight just like the Penney Loafer. Anyway, that is what we called them in my days and I am 80 years old now. What Sheridan is wearing is certainly not a Dress Shoe and I bet that is what he wore for the Norjak Caper.
Jerry The Cossey chute story was what he told Ralph (as the FBI agent) but it is not true as a lot of the info the FBI was told by Cossey. If you read the new book by Bruce Smith, the chute story is correct in the book that the two delivered to DB were from Norm Hayden and in the picture below he is wearing the chute that was returned to him by the FBI as DB did not return the other.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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George You show a photo of a Penney Loafer and a Dress Shoe. We also call the shoe that Sheridan wore a Loafer as it has just three lace holes and can be slipped into/outof if the laces are not too tight just like the Penney Loafer. Anyway, that is what we called them in my days and I am 80 years old now. What Sheridan is wearing is certainly not a Dress Shoe and I bet that is what he wore for the Norjak Caper.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
I can slip in and out of my hip wader loafer too. Loafing is as loafer does! ;)
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Sailshaw: They got 4 chutes Hayden got his back Cossey didn't The 2 missing chutes was Cosseys and the dummy chute with the white X. Bruce is mistaken. According to Ralph last night I'm right. Bruce did not discuss this with Ralph. Believe me when I say this case is deceiving due to the number of years that has past and the number of books that has been written. One needs to go back to the beginning of this case and go to the FBI case files in Seattle and read. Then talk to all the agents in this case as I have. I know this case forward and backwards I've been Involved with it for 30yrs. Jerry PS: Cossey and others have changed stories in the past in an attempt to make money on this case. Lets not forget our famous Marla Cooper and a few others to include authors who has attempted to fraud this case in the recent years. This is the last I will post on this subject, I don't believe it is worth arguing over the bottom line, this case is still unsolved and you and others are trying to help solve it. That is what is Important now. Jerry
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Jerry Thomas I know you and Ralph are very good friends and you respect what he tells you and you have a different conclusion about the chutes but the FBI still has not solved the crime and don't know who Cooper is and will never find out using their misinformation they have. I have known who DB was since 1961 and he is still alive and well in California. I know how to solve the crime and have passed my information on to the FBI. They have been placed on "STAND DOWN" so nothing gets done and they can't figure it out with the bad information they have. I like the FBI very much and have been waiting for them to finally solve the case, but it is going nowhere as they are on STAND DOWN. The simple clue to solving the case rests in the DNA under the Stamps/Envelope Flaps of the four letters sent to the newspapers. DB had plenty of time to think out and plan his caper, but DNA was not a technique used in those early days as so it was not considered and overlooked by DB. It is such a simple (at little cost) clue to find the DNA under the stamps/envelope flaps and compare with what was taken from Sheridan Peterson by the two female agents. A match (and I am sure there will be a match with Sheridan's DNA) will prove he was in Portland and not in Nepal as his phoney alibi goes. DB thought of everything and his caper was well planed except for the DNA, I even believe his only disguise was the cosmetic BROWN contact lens (to cover his blue eyes) that he proudly showed the Flight Attendants before he put on the sunglasses for the remainder of the flight. The most simple of disguises and it has worked well. We need to get together sometime and talk.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
PS another photo of Sheridan's shoes (left and right) is attached.
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Bob , I'm will aware of your suspect for Cooper. I respect your dedication to this quest. However your post says 1961 you may want to change it to read 1971, just saying. Jerry
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Sailshaw: They got 4 chutes Hayden got his back Cossey didn't The 2 missing chutes was Cosseys and the dummy chute with the white X. Bruce is mistaken. According to Ralph last night I'm right. Bruce did not discuss this with Ralph. Believe me when I say this case is deceiving due to the number of years that has past and the number of books that has been written. One needs to go back to the beginning of this case and go to the FBI case files in Seattle and read. Then talk to all the agents in this case as I have. I know this case forward and backwards I've been Involved with it for 30yrs. Jerry PS: Cossey and others have changed stories in the past in an attempt to make money on this case. Lets not forget our famous Marla Cooper and a few others to include authors who has attempted to fraud this case in the recent years. This is the last I will post on this subject, I don't believe it is worth arguing over the bottom line, this case is still unsolved and you and others are trying to help solve it. That is what is Important now. Jerry
Your remarks above are nothing but pure intimidation based on some mythology you continue to peddle - about having special information and position in the DB Cooper case. So far as I have ever been able to determine, nothing could be further from the truth. Your claims are a mythology so far. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beans,_Beans,_the_Musical_Fruit
Himmelsbach was never in charge of the Cooper case as you claim, not remotely, and you aren't either!
DB Cooper Bullshiteers Anonymous of the State of Washington & Oregon.
Give us a break! ;D
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Jerry! You just got here and now you're clamming up? What gives?
If I'm wrong about the ownership of the chutes, then you and Ralph have to explain both the FBI documentation that states Norman Hayden is the owner of the back chutes that went aboard 305, and also Norman's entire narrative, along with supporting evidence such as the returned parachute and the rigging card from Cossey.
You've got some 'splainin' to do, buddy.
BTW: Thanks for your promise to buy my book!
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I even believe his only disguise was the cosmetic BROWN contact lens (to cover his blue eyes) that he proudly showed the Flight Attendants before he put on the sunglasses for the remainder of the flight. The most simple of disguises and it has worked well.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
The "blue eyes" thing is tough to overcome. Contact lenses were in their infancy in 1971 and they were very rare, and very expensive. Hair dye would have been a much more practical way to disguise ones appearance. Speaking of hair, Peterson doesn't appear to have much in the photos I've seen. Could you post more photos of him please? How tall is he?
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Bruce I bought your book now I have to buy a kindle any suggestions. By the way hello Georger every thing going ok hope so I'll research in greater detail about the chutes after I talk to Bruce. Jerry
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Georger: You are now claiming that I claim that Mr. H was in charge of the DB Cooper case. That is totally not correct Here is what I said from my post: " The Cossey chute story was what he told Ralph (as the FBI agent) but it is not true as a lot of the info the FBI was told by Cossey.".
Also, I first met Sheridan Peterson in 1961 when he stayed at my home for one month. That is ten years before Norjack and why are you trying to confuse my story? You should be working to better understand what took place. Have you read Bruce's new book yet? He quote's my information right on about the case.
About brown cosmetic contact lens: My Yacht Club friend "Jim Erickson" tells me the cosmetic lens were available in hard contact form and not very expensive in 1971. Also, a pair of home made cosmetic lens could also have been made by using a pair of clear hard contacts, sprayed with brown model airplane lacquer (masking off a small round place to see through). Jim's father started Erickson Lab and was in business before Norjack and he knows the business. He says soft lens were just becoming popular at that time and the Lab could provide even a tinted (to make finding s lost lens easier) lens, so brown hard lens would have been used in those days to make cosmetic lens.
Attached is the best photo I have of Sheridan from the Boeing News file working photo which was used to make the add for the new Boeing Skydiving Club.
Bob Sailshaw
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Georger: You are now claiming that I claim that Mr. H was in charge of the DB Cooper case. That is totally not correct Here is what I said from my post: " The Cossey chute story was what he told Ralph (as the FBI agent) but it is not true as a lot of the info the FBI was told by Cossey.".
Bob Sailshaw
Ive never said any such thing. My reference is not to you. My reference is to Jerry Thomas who basically claims he knows more about NORJAK than any living human! Thomas basically claims H was in charge of NORJAK, H had/has info about NORJAK that nobody else has/had, that H has NORJAK files that nobody else has, that the FBI flight path map is wrong, that 305 flew a path in or near the Washougal where Cooper bailed before 305 crossed the Columbia over the Troutdale Airport (not at Portland), and on and on and on and on ....
Those are Jerry Thomas' claims, not yours. I have never said you made such claims.
Basically, Mr. Thomas is saying 'everything Cooper should go through him and nobody else because he-Thomas is the foremost expert on NORJAK', based on his friendship with retired FBI Agent Ralph Himmelsbach who once worked for the FBI and chased the hijacked jet liner in a heliocopter.
Thomas claims he has access to the FBI and FBI files that no other living human has.
Thomas claims he is an expert on all phases of the NORJAK case.
Himmelsbach and Jerry Thomas are to NORJAK as Albert Einstein and Rutherford were to Physics, according to MR. Thomas!
You Sailshaw need to get Jerry Thomas on your side if you ever hope to progress at all in your case for Peterson being DB Cooper. Jo Weber learned that lesson the hard way - don;t make the mistake she made!
:)
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps? Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps? Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?
Extensive posts on that over at DZ _ the unregulated closed Cooper thread that was hijacked by Aliens.
:o
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps? Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?
All who jumped, survived:
1. Robb Heady
2. Martin McNally (didn't know how to put on his chute)
3. Richard La Point (January in Colorado and no jacket or sweater- but he had his cowboy boots!)
4. Richard McCoy
5. Frederick Hahneman
No splats!
For those who haven't reached Chapter 29 in my book, yet, here is the relevant info:
Chapter 29
Copycats
At the risk of becoming lost in the fog of conspiracy looking for evidence of group activity, we need to look more closely at the copycats if for no other reason than some in the FBI, such as Ralph Himmelsbach, consider DB Cooper to be one.
“You have to remember that Cooper was a copycat,” he told me when I visited him at his home in 2011.
Himmelsbach claimed that the first skyjacker to demand a ransom and parachute was not Cooper, but a fellow he called “Gaylord.”
However, Ralph was incorrect. The first skydiving extortionist was actually named Paul Cini, and he hijacked an Air Canada flight out of Calgary, Alberta two weeks before Cooper’s caper.
Nevertheless, Himmelsbach is spot-on with his general analysis.
“With each new skyjacking, the skyjackers improved their techniques,” Ralph said, echoing fellow FBI agent Russ Calame’s evaluation of McCoy’s effort.
Along those lines, I was surprised to hear Himmelsbach confirm Calame’s conclusion that McCoy was not home in Provo during the Cooper skyjacking, because it meant Ralph was willing to hold an opinion opposed to the current view held by the FBI.
“We did look at McCoy in the Cooper case, but he (McCoy) was in Las Vegas when the Cooper skyjacking took place,” Ralph declared.
But what was McCoy doing in Las Vegas during the Cooper hijacking? Ralph! I
muttered quietly, but was unable to pursue because Ralph’s dinner company arrived.
I’d also like Ralph to amplify his perspective on the copycats because he is the only one I know to have stated that there were twenty Cooper-esque skyjackers in the months following Norjak. Other published accounts say a dozen or so, and I have been able to find fourteen. This haze casts a pall of mystery over the topic.
Nevertheless, most authors talk about the four primary copycats: McCoy, Robb Heady, Martin McNally, and Frederick Hahneman. All made it to the ground safely, even McNally even though he had never parachuted before, which belies the proposition that the Cooper jump was too dangerous to be successful.
But the essential question remains: were they a group? Did any of them know DB Cooper or Paul Cini? Were they coached in any manner? How did these skyjackings evolve, as Himmelsbach has observed. Was it an organic process and achieved by skyjackers merely reading newspaper accounts of previous hijackings, or were they part of somebody’s deliberate plan?
Frankly, there is not enough information available to the public to make any
determination on that question, and it reveals some of the limitations of open-sourced sleuthing—we just don’t have enough muscle to unearth these kinds of facts.
Nevertheless, this inquiry received a shot of adrenaline from an unexpected source: the Washington State Historical Museum in Tacoma. In 2013, they opened a major exhibit on DB Cooper and mentioned that DB Cooper had thirteen copycats. I asked the WSHM to provide me with a list of these Cooper-esque hijackers, and they gave me s few names I had never seen anywhere else.
Their primary source is the website called “Skyjacker of the Day—a Hundred Days, A Hundred Skyjackers,” a site originally developed to build interest in the June 2013 launch of the book, The Skies Belong to Us—Love and Terror in the Golden Age of Hijackings, by Brendan Koerner.
http://skyjackeroftheday.tumblr.com/
Koener’s book is an overview of the entire skyjacking phenomena and portrays
a wonderful subtext for the DB Cooper episode. Koerner’s tome is wrapped around a lengthy narrative of the hijacking of Western Flight 701, performed by two fugitives— Roger Holder and Cathy Kerkow—and includes a juicy romance, Black Panther politics and a dicey escape to Algiers.
But one of the most intriguing aspects of Koerner’s work is showing how many skyjackings were occurring in the United States in the early 1970s—hundreds—and how they even overlapped, with multiple hijackings in one day and even involving the same airport. I was astonished to learn that one of the Cooper copycats, Robb Heady, hijacked his plane on the same day as Holder and Kerkow, and in fact Heady directed his plane to SFO just as their Western 401 was taking off for Algeria!
The following is a list of what we know about bona fide copycats—the proviso being that a Cooper copycat has to demand a ransom and use a parachute to escape.
1. Paul Cini… Air Canada 812… 11. 13. 71
2. DB Cooper… Northwest Orient 305… 11. 24. 71
3. Everett Holt… Northwest Orient 734… 12. 24. 71
4. Billy Hurst, Jr.… Braniff 38… 1. 12. 72
5. Richard LaPoint… Hughes Air West 800… 1. 20. 72
6. Richard McCoy… United 855… 4. 7. 72
7. Stanley Spreck… Pacific Southwest 942 4. 9 72
8. Frederick Hahneman… Eastern 175… 5. 5. 72
9. “Lomas”… Ecuadoriana de Aviacion…5. 22. 72
10. Robb Heady… United 239… 6. 2. 72
11. Martin McNally… American 119… 6. 23. 72
12. Daniel Carre… Hughes Airwest 775… 6. 30. 72
13. Francis Goodell… Pacific Southwest 389… 7. 6. 72
14. Melvin Fisher… American 633… 7. 12. 72
Bold type indicates the skyjacker made it to the ground successfully.
The rest were apprehended by the FBI or flight crews before they could jump.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMBOdBrqLmI
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Geoffrey's interview on Author Talk is fantastic. I hadn't seen this one before. Thanks.
GG is so smooth! A real inspiration.
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps? Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?
All who jumped, survived:
1. Robb Heady
2. Martin McNally (didn't know how to put on his chute)
3. Richard La Point (January in Colorado and no jacket or sweater- but he had his cowboy boots!)
4. Richard McCoy
5. Frederick Hahneman
No splats!
For those who haven't reached Chapter 29 in my book, yet, here is the relevant info:
Great answer Bruce. Thanks for not answering the question like a douche-bag. I find it interesting that all the other jumpers survived. But on the other hand, it seems they all were apprehended soon afterward. So if the Cooper suspect survived because everybody else survived, wouldn't it stand to reason he would have been captured immediately because everybody else was?
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps? Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?
All who jumped, survived:
1. Robb Heady
2. Martin McNally (didn't know how to put on his chute)
3. Richard La Point (January in Colorado and no jacket or sweater- but he had his cowboy boots!)
4. Richard McCoy
5. Frederick Hahneman
No splats!
For those who haven't reached Chapter 29 in my book, yet, here is the relevant info:
Great answer Bruce. Thanks for not answering the question like a douche-bag. I find it interesting that all the other jumpers survived. But on the other hand, it seems they all were apprehended soon afterward. So if the Cooper suspect survived because everybody else survived, wouldn't it stand to reason he would have been captured immediately because everybody else was?
The problem with saying Cooper should have been caught like all the others is that the lessons learned (i.e. the pressure bump) from the Cooper hijacking were used to pinpoint all the later jumpers. The lack of proper ground coverage in Cooper's case led to an overwhelming use of ground coverage and searching in the following cases (except the guy who jumped into the jungle, he later just gave himself up). The search coverage was so solid, that in McCoy's case, he was one of the men searching for himself.
(And McCoy blabbed to someone else, that never helps.)
This is all an example of the problem of induction. We can't assume that every hijacking involving a parachute will play out the same way. They are all quite different. Instead, we have to ask ourselves, probabilistically, what was Cooper's likely outcome. Parachutes, even in bad weather with inexperienced jumpers doing their deeds at night, are very effective lifesaving tools. It's difficult imagining Cooper not pulling the ripcord.
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So how many Cooper copycats survived their jumps? Did any Cooper copycats go "splat"?
All who jumped, survived:
1. Robb Heady
2. Martin McNally (didn't know how to put on his chute)
3. Richard La Point (January in Colorado and no jacket or sweater- but he had his cowboy boots!)
4. Richard McCoy
5. Frederick Hahneman
No splats!
For those who haven't reached Chapter 29 in my book, yet, here is the relevant info:
Great answer Bruce. Thanks for not answering the question like a douche-bag. I find it interesting that all the other jumpers survived. But on the other hand, it seems they all were apprehended soon afterward. So if the Cooper suspect survived because everybody else survived, wouldn't it stand to reason he would have been captured immediately because everybody else was?
The problem with saying Cooper should have been caught like all the others is that the lessons learned (i.e. the pressure bump) from the Cooper hijacking were used to pinpoint all the later jumpers. The lack of proper ground coverage in Cooper's case led to an overwhelming use of ground coverage and searching in the following cases (except the guy who jumped into the jungle, he later just gave himself up). The search coverage was so solid, that in McCoy's case, he was one of the men searching for himself.
(And McCoy blabbed to someone else, that never helps.)
This is all an example of the problem of induction. We can't assume that every hijacking involving a parachute will play out the same way. They are all quite different. Instead, we have to ask ourselves, probabilistically, what was Cooper's likely outcome. Parachutes, even in bad weather with inexperienced jumpers doing their deeds at night, are very effective lifesaving tools. It's difficult imagining Cooper not pulling the ripcord.
It might be noteworthy to ask: would the chances of Cooper's apprehension been greater had he bailed somewhere south of the Columbia River, or even closer to Seattle, vs. in the area between Seattle and the Columbia? Especially given the time of day, the cover of darkness and weather, etc. So, were the conditions of Cooper's jump somehow different than the other hijackings where people jumped (which is few!).
The conditions and the resources available to apprehend Cooper when and where he jumped, were few to nonexistent. Let's imagine Himmelsbach's miraculous attempt at spotting Cooper from a helo near Woodland would have succeeded ... what then? Could resources have been called in to surround and net Cooper that night? Or would Himmelsbach been put on the ground to try and apprehend Mr. Cooper, himself in some heroic struggle? The facts seem to be that 'nobody knew with any certainty where Cooper was or had bailed' that night. And nobody was brought in and put on the ground to search - anywhere. Not even an area was cordoned off or cars brought in and put at strategic locations or road intersections ... looking for Cooper that night and trying to hem in into an area where resources could be committed at sunset? Cooper examined the chutes and looked at the rigging cards _ he may have also been looking for locators or chaf? Were any public alerts broadcast on any radio station ... to be on the lookout for a hijacker? No lone guy wandered into a gas station asking for directions and a ham sandwich? Some girl reports a guy walking out of the woods with a suitcase and nobody is called in to check ... but is that story true?
If he is a DOA he isn't going to leave any clues or be moving around. Depending on whose version of the Cooper story you buy into, he may not have know where in hell he was! We know the pilots and NWA and the Air Force made at attempt to identify exactly when and where he bailed. But there was a problem getting resources into that area under the prevailing conditions that night.
We are told that an SR71 was even brought in to try and spot Cooper or anything unusual that might lead to Cooper's apprehension! That is a serious resource to bring in and direct at finding one lone hijacker! That fact alone suggests a serious lack of resources in any ordinary search for Mr. Cooper and his parachute.
It makes me sometimes wonder just how close the huge investigation looking for Cooper may have come to actually finding Cooper, or some major piece of evidence, but just missed it by a hair? Such is the romance of the Cooper case.
;)
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Georger: Your comment is "It makes me sometimes wonder just how close the huge investigation looking for Cooper may have come to actually finding Cooper, or some major piece of evidence, but just missed it by a hair? Such is the romance of the Cooper case."
My answer is: "The DNA evidence on the four letters sent to the Newspapers and under the stamps and envelope flaps when compared with what the FBI has from Sheridan Peterson will lead directly to solving the case as it would shoot down his phoney alibi about being in Nepal at the time of Norjak. That is how close the FBI were to solving the case and now they are on HOLD or STAND DOWN and will never solve it. It would not cost much to get the DNA from the letters and compare with Sheridan's." What they got from the tie is useless and they know it.
Bob Saillshaw
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Remember, the FBI gave DB Cooper a 12-hour head start. He jumped at 8:13 pm on Wednesday night and the feds didn't send folks out until the next morning. First light was about 7 am.
What happened to the Cowboys?
As Georger has mentioned, there were no road blocks, neighborhood searches or warnings. Thursday morning saw about 25 local cops and volunteers look for Coop in over 20 square miles of identified LZ. The feds stayed back in Woodland awaiting developments.
Feds also commandeered six helos - from timber companies and the Oregon NAtional Guard. Plus Himms in his fixed-wing. But it was rainy, cloudy and foggy. Then the aerial search was called off for Friday and Saturday due to weather. Then resumed on Sunday.
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Immediate capture is not a given, not even for the copycatters.
McNally was in local police custody that night, but released. He was then arrested three days later after being betrayed by a buddy in Michigan, who told the cops who, what, where and when.
Robb was surrounded by 150 local cops that night.
Hahnemann jumped who knows where in the jungle, and then turned himself in 30 days later.
McCoy had an estimated 200 cops looking for him in the scrub around Provo and they still missed him.
LaPoint was a sitting duck because he was in the middle of a snow-covered field with an orange parachute. Plus the chaff in the chute alerted the FAA fixed wing circling the area
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Note to Georger:
The image of Himms mud-wrestlin' with Danny Boy in the boonies is priceless. Let's develop that scenario!
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What does the SR 71 tell us?
Good question, G. To me, it is a "Hail Mary" pass designed primarily for public relations. Also, the typical weather of the PNW and its constant cloud cover shows the limitations of even the most sophisticated equipment. Now, I suppose, we have thermal imaging down to an exact science, so to speak....
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Where to jump when stealing an airplane:
Another consideration in picking an LZ is the ease the ground team have of finding and extracting their guy. This aspect of the case gets very little attention, as the notion of Cooper as a Lone Warrior predominates the view of most researchers. But it may not be true.
Jake! Please call me !!!!!!!
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Remember, the FBI gave DB Cooper a 12-hour head start. He jumped at 8:13 pm on Wednesday night and the feds didn't send folks out until the next morning. First light was about 7 am.
What happened to the Cowboys?
As Georger has mentioned, there were no road blocks, neighborhood searches or warnings. Thursday morning saw about 25 local cops and volunteers look for Coop in over 20 square miles of identified LZ. The feds stayed back in Woodland awaiting developments.
Feds also commandeered six helos - from timber companies and the Oregon NAtional Guard. Plus Himms in his fixed-wing. But it was rainy, cloudy and foggy. Then the aerial search was called off for Friday and Saturday due to weather. Then resumed on Sunday.
A breakdown of the areas searched by each team and plot this on a map?
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The only "teams" that I know of came from the Clark County Sheriff. Under-Sherrif Tom McDowell told me his search was conducted in Amboy along Buncombe Rd, off Cedar Creek Rd, which is just south of the Ariel Tavern. He told me he had about 20 guys out in the woods.
No maps, coordinates, etc.
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Bruce: You say "Another consideration in picking an LZ is the ease the ground team have of finding and extracting their guy. This aspect of the case gets very little attention, as the notion of Cooper as a Lone Warrior predominates the view of most researchers. But it may not be true."
I say that I think there could have been two Ground Men (Cossey and Duane Webber). When Duane told Jo that "maybe I was one of the Ground Men" he was talking about where DB came out of the woods at the North end of Lake Lacama (just East of Vancouver). That location makes a lot of sense and could have meant that they were talking with DB to home in on where he was landing (in the woods). Duane could have got there first and Cossey followed as they all could have been talking on their CB's.
Bob Sailshaw 73's
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These were shot at the 2006 WFFC, DC 9-21 exits. Informative. These are highly experienced skydivers exiting and look through all the pics to see various displays of instability immediately upon exit. http://www.freefall.com/webcam/2006pics/July_22/index.html
The best bet for DBC, based on the Thailand 727 jump videos, would be to have faced forward at the bottom of the stairs, pulled the ripcord and let the inflating canopy pull him off. No tumbling, no disorientation.
377
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Did you forget the pics?
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Did you forget the pics?
Use the clickable link in 377's post. There are about 400 pictures at least at that link.
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Georger wrote:
Himmelsbach and Jerry Thomas are to NORJAK as Albert Einstein and Rutherford were to Physics, according to MR. Thomas!
I liken Jerry more to Hahn than Rutherford. http://harpers.org/archive/1998/11/the-radioactive-boy-scout/
I really enjoyed meeting Jerry and his wife Shelley at the Portland symposium. Despite all our strong disagreement about Cooper's chances of survival (Jerry saying low and me saying high) he greeted me warmly and we had a great time trading opposing views. He has more credentials than I do to opine as an expert, having been a Special Forces survival instructor, military parachutist etc. I have a lot more jumps than he does but every one was made over a DZ, not one night wilderness landing. He also knows the area over which Cooper jumped and I do not.
Still, I think the chances of Cooper landing alive were high.
377
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Crap ;D
I didn't see that....thanks 99
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Georger wrote: Himmelsbach and Jerry Thomas are to NORJAK as Albert Einstein and Rutherford were to Physics, according to MR. Thomas!
I liken Jerry more to Hahn than Rutherford. http://harpers.org/archive/1998/11/the-radioactive-boy-scout/
I really enjoyed meeting Jerry and his wife Shelley at the Portland symposium. Despite all our strong disagreement about Cooper's chances of survival (Jerry saying low and me saying high) he greeted me warmly and we had a great time trading opposing views. He has more credentials than I do to opine as an expert, having been a Special Forces survival instructor, military parachutist etc. I have a lot more jumps than he does but every one was made over a DZ, not one night wilderness landing. He also knows the area over which Cooper jumped and I do not.
Still, I think the chances of Cooper landing alive were high.
377
Jerry is pretty solid on an easterly flight path, and a no pull....I spoke with Jerry several times last week, nice guy.
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This one is from the movie about Cooper The pursuit of DB Cooper..this was shot with the plane flying 150 knots...
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Robb said he tumbled hard for about 15 seconds once he hit the slipstream, which occurred a few moments after he jumped.
Also, remember he was going at least 300 mph.
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I made this a few years ago. it's also from the movie...the stuntman told Larry Carr 150 knots was as fast as he wanted to go...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eluyyA_JPII
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Robb said he tumbled hard for about 15 seconds once he hit the slipstream, which occurred a few moments after he jumped.
Also, remember he was going at least 300 mph.
If jumping from the end of the aft stairs of a 727, you would hit the slipstream in no more than one second. I believe the 300 MPH guy actually jumped from a side fuselage exit and he would be contacting the slipstream as soon as any part of his body was more than 3 or 4 inches from the outside of the fuselage.
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Mcnally lost his pants in the jump.. :o everything was spread out after he jumped...
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Robb said he tumbled hard for about 15 seconds once he hit the slipstream, which occurred a few moments after he jumped.
Also, remember he was going at least 300 mph.
If jumping from the end of the aft stairs of a 727, you would hit the slipstream in no more than one second. I believe the 300 MPH guy actually jumped from a side fuselage exit and he would be contacting the slipstream as soon as any part of his body was more than 3 or 4 inches from the outside of the fuselage.
Side fuselage exit????
Robb's plane was a 727. What side exit?
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Robb said he tumbled hard for about 15 seconds once he hit the slipstream, which occurred a few moments after he jumped.
Also, remember he was going at least 300 mph.
If jumping from the end of the aft stairs of a 727, you would hit the slipstream in no more than one second. I believe the 300 MPH guy actually jumped from a side fuselage exit and he would be contacting the slipstream as soon as any part of his body was more than 3 or 4 inches from the outside of the fuselage.
Side fuselage exit????
Robb's plane was a 727. What side exit?
I believe the fellow who jumped over Indiana did so from a DC-10 and it was the one which was going 300 MPH. The Captain added about another 100 MPH to the aircraft's speed at jump time just for the heck of it. May as well give the hijacker some thrills.
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First I heard.
The Indiana guy was Marty McNally, and it was a 727.
Same with 300-MPG-Guy, Robb Heady, a 727. It was not flying dirty, like Cooper, and was having a normal take-off from Reno. Hence, an estimated 300-350 mph, 20 minutes after wheels up.
Side-Exit Guy might have Paul Cini, who is reported to have hijacked a DC-8, with its rear, side-exit hatch. GG says it was a DC-9, but GG does get a fact wrong every now and then..... Hence, I go with Koerner, Far Flung, and the newspapers who say a DC-8. BTW, Paulie never jumped, but if he did had, he would have run the risk of a body-strike against the elevators. 377 says a bunch of guys did that when they jumped an "8."
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Georger wrote: Himmelsbach and Jerry Thomas are to NORJAK as Albert Einstein and Rutherford were to Physics, according to MR. Thomas!
I liken Jerry more to Hahn than Rutherford. http://harpers.org/archive/1998/11/the-radioactive-boy-scout/
I really enjoyed meeting Jerry and his wife Shelley at the Portland symposium. Despite all our strong disagreement about Cooper's chances of survival (Jerry saying low and me saying high) he greeted me warmly and we had a great time trading opposing views. He has more credentials than I do to opine as an expert, having been a Special Forces survival instructor, military parachutist etc. I have a lot more jumps than he does but every one was made over a DZ, not one night wilderness landing. He also knows the area over which Cooper jumped and I do not.
Still, I think the chances of Cooper landing alive were high.
377
Jerry is pretty solid on an easterly flight path, and a no pull....I spoke with Jerry several times last week, nice guy.
Did he explain why he has one flight path while the FBI/NWA/USAF has another??
As noted at DZ, he usually avoids the real questions -
For example, he never has explained if Himmelsbach is attached to an east path or how H adopted that stance, if in fact H ever adopted that stance. It may involve something Rataczak said about being 20 miles further east.. to H at H's retirement. All we get from JT is gobblewobble. JT has stated publicly 305 crossed the Columbia over the Troutdale airport - did you ask him about that? What did he say?
:D
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Can any of the people who have made deliberate water jumps answer these questions:
1. Will a back pack or reserve pack, completely unopened, float by itself if it lands in water and is not attached to anything?
2. If so, how long will it float under the above conditions? It is understood that it will eventually get saturated with water and then sink.
That's a great question. I tend to think the chute packs and money bag would be negatively buoyant after the air is forced out of them. The Cooper suspects body would probably be negatively buoyant also, because the impact would drive the air from his lungs and because of his body type. It sounds like he didn't have much body fat, and muscle is about 3 time denser than fat, so in short, muscle tends to sink and fat tends to float.
We do need to find out if the chute packs are buoyant though.
minor point, and I'm not an expert, but I suspect the bolded part would depend on the orientation of the torso on impact.
the cross section of your rib cage is roughly elliptical, as viewed along the vertical axis (i.e., in the direction parallel to your spine). if you land flat on your back or front, then, I agree, the impact would force the air out of your lungs. it further flattens that elliptical cross section, thus decreasing the volume of the lungs, and pressing the air out. but if you land on your side, you squeeze the ellipse into a shape closer to circular, with larger cross sectional area, thus increasing the volume of the lungs, and sucking air in.
for an illustration of what I'm talking about that is of questionable merit and relevance but is at least adorable, read about the physical therapy treatments for flat chested kitten syndrome: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat-chested_kitten_syndrome
as to what happens when you impact with your head or feet, it seems complicated and hard to predict what effect there might be on air in your lungs. guessing it tends to reduce your lung volume, but depends on how much the intervening parts of the body absorb the shock (by being damaged...). also in this case you're probably "piercing" the water like a diver, rather than "smacking" into it as you would in the other orientations, thus spreading out the deceleration in time and reducing the instantaneous force.
or, at least, that's how it all works when I picture it in my head.
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Can any of the people who have made deliberate water jumps answer these questions:
1. Will a back pack or reserve pack, completely unopened, float by itself if it lands in water and is not attached to anything?
2. If so, how long will it float under the above conditions? It is understood that it will eventually get saturated with water and then sink.
That's a great question. I tend to think the chute packs and money bag would be negatively buoyant after the air is forced out of them. The Cooper suspects body would probably be negatively buoyant also, because the impact would drive the air from his lungs and because of his body type. It sounds like he didn't have much body fat, and muscle is about 3 time denser than fat, so in short, muscle tends to sink and fat tends to float.
We do need to find out if the chute packs are buoyant though.
minor point, and I'm not an expert, but I suspect the bolded part would depend on the orientation of the torso on impact.
the cross section of your rib cage is roughly elliptical, as viewed along the vertical axis (i.e., in the direction parallel to your spine). if you land flat on your back or front, then, I agree, the impact would force the air out of your lungs. it further flattens that elliptical cross section, thus decreasing the volume of the lungs, and pressing the air out. but if you land on your side, you squeeze the ellipse into a shape closer to circular, with larger cross sectional area, thus increasing the volume of the lungs, and sucking air in.
for an illustration of what I'm talking about that is of questionable merit and relevance but is at least adorable, read about the physical therapy treatments for flat chested kitten syndrome: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat-chested_kitten_syndrome
as to what happens when you impact with your head or feet, it seems complicated and hard to predict what effect there might be on air in your lungs. guessing it tends to reduce your lung volume, but depends on how much the intervening parts of the body absorb the shock (by being damaged...). also in this case you're probably "piercing" the water like a diver, rather than "smacking" into it as you would in the other orientations, thus spreading out the deceleration in time and reducing the instantaneous force.
or, at least, that's how it all works when I picture it in my head.
This was all discussed on DZ.
At terminal v the difference between water vs ground is negligible. The angle at which the body encountered water would make some difference ... but from the examples of people jumping off tall bridges etc. death ensues in the vast majority of cases.
As for your anatomy lesson: The body by weight is roughly 65% water; all organs are mostly fluids separated by thin cellular membranes. When the body impacts something hard, that force is transferred to everything in the body cavity and everything from the walls of vessels to the walls of organs and cells can rupture. This happens in auto accidents all the time. At velocities like terminal v. that outcome is assured on a massive scale. At a terminal v impact, the whole internal cavity of the body would fill up with fluids including the lungs, so the question of whether there would be air left in the lungs or not, is a mute point! The lungs as a viable structure would cease to exist!
The answer is all air would be expelled instantly and replaced by body fluids. The only air holding cavity would be the chest and abdominal cavity likely punctured by bones and bone fragments forced through the sack of the skin, then that cavity would fill up with water ... you get the picture.
The car crash that killed Princess Diana in 1997 was estimated to range somewhere between 70–100 g's. Her autopsy noted massive organ and connecting tissue damage, her lungs and chest cavity full of fluid and torn from the chest walls, and the g-force pulled the pulmonary artery from her heart.
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interesting, thanks.
for the record, in case this wasn't clear, I wasn't entertaining some notion that someone hitting water (let alone ground) at terminal velocity has any chance of surviving, in any orientation. I was just talking about how much air might be in the lungs for purposes of determining buoyancy... but yes, I see how rupturing everything and letting fluid into the lungs makes it a moot point whether the lungs expand or contract on impact.
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First I heard.
The Indiana guy was Marty McNally, and it was a 727.
Same with 300-MPG-Guy, Robb Heady, a 727. It was not flying dirty, like Cooper, and was having a normal take-off from Reno. Hence, an estimated 300-350 mph, 20 minutes after wheels up.
Side-Exit Guy might have Paul Cini, who is reported to have hijacked a DC-8, with its rear, side-exit hatch. GG says it was a DC-9, but GG does get a fact wrong every now and then..... Hence, I go with Koerner, Far Flung, and the newspapers who say a DC-8. BTW, Paulie never jumped, but if he did had, he would have run the risk of a body-strike against the elevators. 377 says a bunch of guys did that when they jumped an "8."
I think you misquoted me Bruce. No sport jumps were made from DC 8s AKAIK, but there have been plenty of horizontal stabilizer strikes from side exits done at high speeds from King Air 90s and other similarly configured jumpships.
How's the book selling?
377
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Hello and please excuse my intrusion. Has anyone considered Carson or Stevenson ? ;)
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Hello and please excuse my intrusion. Has anyone considered Carson or Stevenson ? ;)
Welcome NJ71, can you be a little more specific about those names?
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First I heard.
The Indiana guy was Marty McNally, and it was a 727.
Same with 300-MPG-Guy, Robb Heady, a 727. It was not flying dirty, like Cooper, and was having a normal take-off from Reno. Hence, an estimated 300-350 mph, 20 minutes after wheels up.
Side-Exit Guy might have Paul Cini, who is reported to have hijacked a DC-8, with its rear, side-exit hatch. GG says it was a DC-9, but GG does get a fact wrong every now and then..... Hence, I go with Koerner, Far Flung, and the newspapers who say a DC-8. BTW, Paulie never jumped, but if he did had, he would have run the risk of a body-strike against the elevators. 377 says a bunch of guys did that when they jumped an "8."
I think you misquoted me Bruce. No sport jumps were made from DC 8s AKAIK, but there have been plenty of horizontal stabilizer strikes from side exits done at high speeds from King Air 90s and other similarly configured jumpships.
How's the book selling?
377
30 copies sold at last counting. But where's my royalty check?!
Gotcha on the DC-8 and King side exits. I had misunderstood your comments back when...
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First I heard.
The Indiana guy was Marty McNally, and it was a 727.
Same with 300-MPG-Guy, Robb Heady, a 727. It was not flying dirty, like Cooper, and was having a normal take-off from Reno. Hence, an estimated 300-350 mph, 20 minutes after wheels up.
Side-Exit Guy might have Paul Cini, who is reported to have hijacked a DC-8, with its rear, side-exit hatch. GG says it was a DC-9, but GG does get a fact wrong every now and then..... Hence, I go with Koerner, Far Flung, and the newspapers who say a DC-8. BTW, Paulie never jumped, but if he did had, he would have run the risk of a body-strike against the elevators. 377 says a bunch of guys did that when they jumped an "8."
I think you misquoted me Bruce. No sport jumps were made from DC 8s AKAIK, but there have been plenty of horizontal stabilizer strikes from side exits done at high speeds from King Air 90s and other similarly configured jumpships.
How's the book selling?
377
30 copies sold at last counting. But where's my royalty check?!
Gotcha on the DC-8 and King side exits. I had misunderstood your comments back when...
Book Discussion About DB Cooper
Started by Shutter « 1 2 3 4 »
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I'm sorry, Carson and Stevenson Washington. Meaning "Mr.Cooper's" destination.
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I'm sorry, Carson and Stevenson Washington. Meaning "Mr.Cooper's" destination.
Do you realize how far off the flight path those area's are?
Do you mean where he ended up?
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That's exactly what and where i mean. With all do respect, do you think once he touched down that he stayed in the LZ ? Or went back in the direction of most resistance?.
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What would give the idea of those area's you mentioned? do you have someone in mind?
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I must first say i did not join this forum to induce clouded trickery or fantasy goose chase's. With that being said yes, many reasons to look especially in Carson.
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I must first say i did not join this forum to induce clouded trickery or fantasy goose chase's. With that being said yes, many reasons to look especially in Carson.
That's fine, but I would like to hear what you have to say. I'm open to anything new. someone else has mentioned this area before, so it's interesting to see it pop up again.
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Between washougal and Carson are very important a areas in this case that has been grossly overlooked.
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The state police did show a small presence at the time of the event, but focused the main attention to the West and North. Which was a blessing for"Mr.Cooper" and made Carson a safehouse.
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Why would Carson be a "safehouse". I'm thinking Cooper could of changed out of his clothes and blended in where ever he was?
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Carson, Washington, and Stevenson, Washington are neighboring towns in the Columbia Gorge, about 30 miles east of Vancouver. I didn't know, so I had to Google them. Hence, I am posting that information here as a courtesy to those who might also be wondering.
So, Night-Guy, let's hear the whole story!
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Cooper did not change his clothes right away. On the 26th a report was given to State Police by a High School aged girl that there was a man sitting on the side of the grocery store in a dirty suit that was torn badly and muddy. The report was never checked into and was brushed off as a vagrant.
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can this report be verified, or is this something that has been said over the years?
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I can not speak for the State Police, but do to the lack of interest on the original report i highly doubt any documents were officially filed. This has been verified by the now 61yr old woman who made the report at age 17 and verified by me.
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Ok, so, are we implying he lost the money and was basically stuck in the area, and only seen once, or was afraid to spend the money?
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Obviously he did not lose all the money and laying low for awhile was also obvious, but he was where he wanted to be at that point and time. This event was better planned than you will ever know.
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How exactly are you coming to these conclusions. it appears you have the whole story?
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The problem is this, from day 1 everyone has been playing an endless game of follow the leader. Your hashing over the same worthless, dried up information that has produced nothing. Hell, you probably have crossed paths with "Mr.Cooper" and not even known it ;)
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The problem is this, from day 1 everyone has been playing an endless game of follow the leader. Your hashing over the same worthless, dried up information that has produced nothing. Hell, you probably have crossed paths with "Mr.Cooper" and not even known it ;)
well, we are willing to explore new things, so the lastest thing seems to be you. I mentioned before I'm open to anything new....
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The problem is this, from day 1 everyone has been playing an endless game of follow the leader. Your hashing over the same worthless, dried up information that has produced nothing. Hell, you probably have crossed paths with "Mr.Cooper" and not even known it ;)
Well it is great to know that someone has all the answers. Welcome aboard.
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As a matter of fact i do have answers. Is that not what you have been wanting or is this just a hobby for you to pass the time ?
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71, of course we would like to find a conclusion to this, so hopefully you will shed some light on this. we have seen others make this claim, so it isn't really something new, so to speak. I'm sure everyone here would like to hear what you have to say.
You have the floor my friend....
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HOBBY?
Night-Guy, I'm a professional writer and DB Cooper researcher. I spent eight years developing my book on Cooper, and now I'm in the process of marketing it and working with film companies on documentaries. So I ain't playing games. Are you? You seem coy, giving us bits and pieces. Even if factual, such cat and mouse behavior is annoying.
So please, put up or shut up.
But, if you're a bit bashful and this forum is a tad too public, you can always call me or email. If you ask, I'll post my contact info or Shut can give it to you.
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Mr. Smith, seems you need a good ole fashion ass whooping! Go blow your self righteous gas else where!
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Mr. Smith, seems you need a good ole fashion ass whooping! Go blow your self righteous gas else where!
Ok, you both have made your statements. lets keep on track of the discussion and try and move forward...
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:PNone of your suspects are "Cooper", but one played a very important role in this event. Good evening Gentleman and Mr.Smith.
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I hope this is not "where Cooper came out of the woods"
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I've highly suspected for the last two days that this was, "where Cooper walked out of the woods".
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I've highly suspected for the last two days that this was, "where Cooper walked out of the woods".
well, he's got a chance to tell his story, so lets see how it unfolds. he's more than welcome to post it here. we discuss Cooper here, so lets see if this is really about Cooper.....none of us should be here anyway. Paul solved the case on 6/13/2013 :o :o
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my next noob question (and I hope this is the right thread for it):
can someone provide or link to the executive summary of argument(s) that cooper probably didn't (or even couldn't have) survived the jump, and being out in the rough terrain in the cold, rainy night. iiuc, that is the fbi's position.
I know nothing about skydiving and parachutes. my naive sense is that he had a parachute on, he presumably pulled the ripcord....soooo.... where's the problem? I am prepared to have that thinking blasted to hell though.
as far as surviving in the elements that night, after a successful landing, i have some relevant background, and I don't find it so hard to believe that someone with some knowledge could have made it. especially if he had checked the weather forecast and worn long Johns under that suit.
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my next noob question (and I hope this is the right thread for it):
can someone provide or link to the executive summary of argument(s) that cooper probably didn't (or even couldn't have) survived the jump, and being out in the rough terrain in the cold, rainy night. iiuc, that is the fbi's position.
I know nothing about skydiving and parachutes. my naive sense is that he had a parachute on, he presumably pulled the ripcord....soooo.... where's the problem? I am prepared to have that thinking blasted to hell though.
as far as surviving in the elements that night, after a successful landing, i have some relevant background, and I don't find it so hard to believe that someone with some knowledge could have made it. especially if he had checked the weather forecast and worn long Johns under that suit.
The 'executive summary' socalled comes primarily from FBI agents Himmelsbach, Tosaw, and Carr - with a little backup- help from the rigging master Cossey who claimed that the chute he rigged and Cooper chose had a peculiar two-step hard pull only an experienced jumper could have activated (a claim later debunked ?). Members of the Boeing Skydiving Club and other professional skydivers were the consultants for the FBI's assessment.
Points are:
1. Cooper demonstrated no skydiving knowledge or skills commensurate with jumping from a jet doing 200mph.
2. Was not dressed to make a jump from a jet at 10,000 feet or survive the weather conditions. Would have lost his shoes in the jump. Method of tying off the money would have knocked him out and/or resulted in a unsurvivable tumble.
3. Jumped in remote hostile terrain not suitable for a safe landing or safe-easy trip out.
4. Probably didn't get the chute open.
5. His assessed profile fails to meet the 'McCoy' standard for skills or survivability: 'He knew just enough to get into trouble but not enough to pull off the jump' - this is the standard SA Carr cited.
Have I forgotten anything?
;)
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Cooper was a No-Pull Addendum
1. Used the dummy chute for his reserve.
2. Probably tied the reserve to the container with difficult-to-tie 550 parachute cord.
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my next noob question (and I hope this is the right thread for it):
can someone provide...I know nothing about skydiving and parachutes....
Fair enough, Nightie-nite. Perhaps this might be helpful:
There is an extensive description of the parachutes cited by Cossey, Hayden, and the FBI in my book, DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking. Have you read it? Would you like me to post the relevant sections?
I have also written extensively on the Cooper parachute issues on the Mountain News. Have you read those pieces? Can I help clarify anything?
How can we best help you understand the Cooper jump?
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Confusion Alert!
Is db cooper and Nightjumper71 the same person? Their posts seem interchangeable, and I am certainly thinking of them as one-and-the-same person. Am I correct in that linkage?
Also, does anyone else hear the distant chimes of Skyjack71 ringing here????
Or am I just watching too much Netflix?
Anyway, when I first went to college I was the Class of '71. Maybe I should change my moniker to Lehighdropout'71!
BTW: Nimi - that was as close to a frat as I got! Kappa Alpha invited me to ONE rush dinner, and that was it!
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A question, slightly off-topic:
Can anyone explain to me how an Amtrak electric train reached 106 mph minutes after leaving the 30th St Station in Philly when it had to go through three hair-pin turns in downtown before it hit Dead-Man's Curve?
I used to ride trains in the City of Brotherly Love with some frequency back in my Lehgihdropout'71 days, and I never saw an Amtrak train do more than 50, and that was downhill on a straightaway. I'm not gonna have to start another conspiracy investigation, am !?
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Cooper was a No-Pull Addendum
1. Used the dummy chute for his reserve.
2. Probably tied the reserve to the container with difficult-to-tie 550 parachute cord.
Why would he tie the reserve cute to the money container which was tied around his waste?
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Is db cooper and Nightjumper71 the same person? Their posts seem interchangeable, and I am certainly thinking of them as one-and-the-same person. Am I correct in that linkage?
Not according to the IP's, but who knows with that one these days. lets listen to what NJ71 has to say.
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Gentlemen i assure you i am not any of these other people who you have mentioned. My avatar and my user name are very significant to myself. I apologize if I have taken someone else's name on this forum and will change it if you wish. I felt very disrespected by Mr.Smith's comment's. He must hold great weight in this forum to feel comfortable enough to speak to as he does. I will be happy to share what i, but I already feel your minds are made up.
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Bruce doesn't speak for everyone here. if you believe that then I don't know what to tell you, but people raise some concerns which sometimes happen when things are said surrounding this case.
I mentioned this before, you have the floor. let him tell his story before any conclusion are drawn...
Shutter
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Mr.Shutter, if i may request let's approach this as a Q&A. You ask me anything you like and i will answer it truthfully. If i do not have any information on a asked question i will say so. I do not like the terminology "story". To me this word means fantasy or making something up.
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no, I am not the same person as night jumper 71. we did join the same day, and both made basically the same bad joke in our choices of screen name ("lol, maybe I'm really cooper, lol!"), so I can understand people suspecting one or both of us is a sock puppet by the same person. but we aren't. as to our posts being "indistinguishable", i hope that is not true, and do not even see what they have in common.
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Mr.Shutter, if i may request let's approach this as a Q&A. You ask me anything you like and i will answer it truthfully. If i do not have any information on a asked question i will say so. I do not like the terminology "story". To me this word means fantasy or making something up.
Hi, NJ71,
That feels a bit like "20 questions". Would you lay out a brief synopsis of your take on what happened and then we'll ping with you questions? Perhaps Shutter would be willing to create a separate thread for it.
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Mr.Shutter, if i may request let's approach this as a Q&A. You ask me anything you like and i will answer it truthfully. If i do not have any information on a asked question i will say so. I do not like the terminology "story". To me this word means fantasy or making something up.
Hi, NJ71,
That feels a bit like "20 questions". Would you lay out a brief synopsis of your take on what happened and then we'll ping with you questions? Perhaps Shutter would be willing to create a separate thread for it.
.... still waiting ... will this take more than five years?
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Cooper was a No-Pull Addendum
1. Used the dummy chute for his reserve.
2. Probably tied the reserve to the container with difficult-to-tie 550 parachute cord.
Why would he tie the reserve cute to the money container which was tied around his waste?
I believe the argument was that the reserve chute was tied with rope to the NB-6/ NB-8 frame, aka the "container."
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Georger i apologize for my delay in replying. Unfortunately even at my age i work 10-12hr days. I do not have the luxury of sitting behind a computer all day with cheese puff stained fingers awaiting timely responses. When i get home this evening i will be sure to reply ASAP.... or within the 5yr time limit you proposed.
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Mr.Shutter, if i may request let's approach this as a Q&A. You ask me anything you like and i will answer it truthfully. If i do not have any information on a asked question i will say so. I do not like the terminology "story". To me this word means fantasy or making something up.
Ok, does this ring a bell?
"I have a question that hopefully you can shed some light on or maybe you didn't even know about this report. Did you know an 18yr old girl (in 1971) told the general store keeper in Carson Washington that there was a large man sitting behind the store with an injured leg & looked very beaten up. She had a short conversation with this man. xxxx I THINK i have a found this woman & hope to talk to her in the next day or so."
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No that statement does not ring a bell, but obviously is very close to my statement. "Cooper" was not a large man and had no visible injuries, just very dirty and torn clothing.
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It is obvious someone else on this forum has spoken with this lady in Carson, so this goes to prove i am not falsifying my statements. Rather strange though ?
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And you think you have trouble with my attitude, NJ-71?
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Carson, WA Re-Cap
In 1971, a 17-year-old girl talked with a large man wearing torn, dirty clothes leaning up against the rear wall of a small-town grocery store. This woman is now 60-years old, and NJ-71 believes she may have talked with DB Cooper.
In addition, Shut has heard a nearly identical story from a second source
Do I have the story correct, so far?
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Carson, WA Re-Cap
In 1971, a 17-year-old girl talked with a large man wearing torn, dirty clothes leaning up against the rear wall of a small-town grocery store. This woman is now 60-years old, and NJ-71 believes she may have talked with DB Cooper.
In addition, Shut has heard a nearly identical story from a second source
Do I have the story correct, so far?
The words muddy, suit, mid forties, barefoot, and 'called the State Patrol' .... figure in this story somewhere, so far.
Calling all cars: ask Himmelsbach.
:-*
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It is obvious someone else on this forum has spoken with this lady in Carson, so this goes to prove i am not falsifying my statements. Rather strange though ?
Nobody from this forum has made any contact with this woman.
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Gentleman, all this double talk has me very confused. I never mentioned "A man in his 40s" or where on the outside of the store he was positioned? And to the person that emailed me, No i do not know who the woman you are speaking of ? >:(
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next general noob question:
how significant is it that (other than the Tina bar find) none of the money has ever turned up?
if cooper had survived and spent the money, would we expect some bank somewhere to have found one of the bills? I know the serial numbers were made public, and banks were told to look out for them. but, while I don't know exactly how this worked, I can't imagine it was that complete of a dragnet. i certainly doubt every teller in the country was checking every bill they handled. and even if they were in '71 and '72, there's no way they're still doing it (though, post 1995 or so, it becomes easier to imagine this being done electronically....?)
on the other hand, it was a large sum of money. so if cooper spent it, and then it got spent by others, and then spent by still others, you'd expect it disperse over time, for more people to handle the cooper money, and for the odds of someone catching a bill to go up.
so, again, what's the executive summary on arguments about this? I'll take a link to one if it already exists. though I'll also accept another one of George's good posts, if he doesn't mind doing the work!
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I'm sure my comment will spark some great feedback, but the money was kept "On Ice" until late 1973. And your absolutely correct about not everyone checking for the bills. Frankly no one really cared except the FBI and their hopes faded shortly thereafter too. Ok Gentlemen, let's hear it!
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I'm sure my comment will spark some great feedback, but the money was kept "On Ice" until late 1973. And your absolutely correct about not everyone checking for the bills. Frankly no one really cared except the FBI and their hopes faded shortly thereafter too. Ok Gentlemen, let's hear it!
Hi Nightjumper71...
Just put it out there. What do you want to convey to us. Tell us what you know.
I am not into drama and the building up of suspense. I am sure others here do not want to play that game also. Like you, I work during the day. I also have an extensive social life. ;D
So....I will check in later to read all about your conclusions to what happened Thanksgiving weekend 1971 and beyond.....
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I'm sure my comment will spark some great feedback, but the money was kept "On Ice" until late 1973. And your absolutely correct about not everyone checking for the bills. Frankly no one really cared except the FBI and their hopes faded shortly thereafter too. Ok Gentlemen, let's hear it!
Oh, goodie! Cold cash really tickles me. Please more teases!!!
- Lehighdropout'71
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Alright Gentlemen, the facts and you can take them and twist them until it to is "just another story".
Facts:
Touched down Merwin Dam
Picked up in Yale
Dropped off in Washougal
Train to just south of Stevenso, stayed 1 day.
Walked to Carson, stayed a day and a half.
Picked up, crossed into Oregon via route 35.
Destination Eugene Oregon.
Returned to Washougal in August 1973 to retrieve cash.
Returned to Eugene and never left.
There is what happened, now screw it up royal boys!
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My assessment of Mr.Smith and never meeting him...Over weight pin head in his 50s? Has extreme tiny guy syndrome. Probably lives in mommy's basement or old mobile home. Probably never made over 40k a year and girl's think he smells like hog dung. Bet im damn close !
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Alright Gentlemen, the facts and you can take them and twist them until it to is "just another story".
Facts:
Touched down Merwin Dam
Picked up in Yale
Dropped off in Washougal
Train to just south of Stevenso, stayed 1 day.
Walked to Carson, stayed a day and a half.
Picked up, crossed into Oregon via route 35.
Destination Eugene Oregon.
Returned to Washougal in August 1973 to retrieve cash.
Returned to Eugene and never left.
There is what happened, now screw it up royal boys!
No reason for the "gentlemen" to screw up anything. Tell us how you came to these conclusions.
Again...your post is riddled with drama and teases.
I do have a few questions.
How do you know that this is how it went down?
Have you contacted the FBI? If so, what was their reply?
Do you have any proof of your allegations?
Thank you,
From one of the "ladies" of the group.
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Alright Gentlemen, the facts and you can take them and twist them until it to is "just another story".
Facts:
Touched down Merwin Dam
Picked up in Yale
Dropped off in Washougal
Train to just south of Stevenso, stayed 1 day.
Walked to Carson, stayed a day and a half.
Picked up, crossed into Oregon via route 35.
Destination Eugene Oregon.
Returned to Washougal in August 1973 to retrieve cash.
Returned to Eugene and never left.
There is what happened, now screw it up royal boys!
No reason for the "gentlemen" to screw up anything. Tell us how you came to these conclusions.
Again...your post is riddled with drama and teases.
I do have a few questions.
How do you know that this is how it went down?
Have you contacted the FBI? If so, what was their reply?
Do you have any proof of your allegations?
Thank you,
From one of the "ladies" of the group.
Well ... it strikes me as somebody weaving a bunch of loose threads & anecdotes together to make a tapestry. Is it real? Probably not. For one thing this is another 'Eugene theory'. That much is clear. Validation for a possible connection to Eugene goes way back (over at DZ). Obviously the poster was lurking or posting at DZ. The elements of his story reprise previous claims or speculations dropped by various people over the years. What is new is someone suggesting a connection between these extraneous 'factoids'. Very likely the next claim will be a money plant in 1980 at Tina bar .... by the guy living at Eugene with drug connections to Portland.
Then a book or a tv show! 8) ;D ;D ;D ;D
What goes around comes around.
:)
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I really do not understand why you Gentleman are being so sarcastic to me? Did your Uncle/Daddy ruin your life with those late night visits? Come on, grow up, present yourselves as men !
Now, i did not need to come to any conclusions, i know the facts. No, why would i call the FBI? Lot's of factors that no one needs to know. He was not a violent man. He lived in peace and never bothered anyone ever again. I told you I would the the truth and thats what I did now your not willing to accept that.Ask a civilized question and i will gladly answer you.
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I really do not understand why you Gentleman are being so sarcastic to me? Did your Uncle/Daddy ruin your life with those late night visits? Come on, grow up, present yourselves as men !
Now, i did not need to come to any conclusions, i know the facts. No, why would i call the FBI? Lot's of factors that no one needs to know. He was not a violent man. He lived in peace and never bothered anyone ever again. I told you I would the the truth and thats what I did now your not willing to accept that.Ask a civilized question and i will gladly answer you.
Well that was quick - instantaneous! Have you been sitting here all day waiting for something to reply to?
Instead why dont you wind out your theory as Vicki suggests ... and spare us your longwinded morality tale!
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I really do not understand why you Gentleman are being so sarcastic to me? Did your Uncle/Daddy ruin your life with those late night visits? Come on, grow up, present yourselves as men !
Now, i did not need to come to any conclusions, i know the facts. No, why would i call the FBI? Lot's of factors that no one needs to know. He was not a violent man. He lived in peace and never bothered anyone ever again. I told you I would the the truth and thats what I did now your not willing to accept that.Ask a civilized question and i will gladly answer you.
I do not appreciate your attitude in this forum...Put up..or shut the _____ up.
I also do not appreciate your candor. When it comes to my "father", he has been missing since September 1971. Are you referring to pedophilia or incest? Do you think that is a joke?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03QLnFvk8Fs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhjSnvlzG0w
So if you are here to tease and speculate, I personally am not interested. If you have concrete solid information and you are not to afraid to tell, then I would be interested. You see I am here speculating that Cooper could be my father. I you have a suspect and it can be proven, then my family will put this theory to rest.
So..the challenge is in your court. Are you going to act like a "man"?
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I really do not understand why you Gentleman are being so sarcastic to me? Did your Uncle/Daddy ruin your life with those late night visits? Come on, grow up, present yourselves as men !
Now, i did not need to come to any conclusions, i know the facts. No, why would i call the FBI? Lot's of factors that no one needs to know. He was not a violent man. He lived in peace and never bothered anyone ever again. I told you I would the the truth and thats what I did now your not willing to accept that.Ask a civilized question and i will gladly answer you.
...and the real name of DB Cooper is?
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Are you people really this stupid? Teasing ? I told you what happened and where he went! Take it or leave I do not give a rats @$$! You all are so narrow minded it is comical! And if he was your dad..... we are related. Thats all im saying about that. And you people emailing me, say it to the whole forum, are you hiding something !?
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That man in the poster is not "Cooper", sorry.
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Are you people really this stupid? Teasing ? I told you what happened and where he went! Take it or leave I do not give a rats @$$! You all are so narrow minded it is comical! And if he was your dad..... we are related. Thats all im saying about that. And you people emailing me, say it to the whole forum, are you hiding something !?
Again...put up or shut up!
If you want to name call, tease and disrupt you can politely go away. I have a feeling polite is not in your vocabulary. What are you hiding? Do you read what you write before you hit "post"? Do you even realize how you come across?
Questions? there are your questions...that is what you wanted. You did not tell us anything. Do you realize that people are affected by your words? As for you dismissing my father as Cooper, unless you solve the case with the FBI.......I call your story.......fiction. Your move......
I hope you have a pleasant weekend and people treat you, and talk to you, the way you treat and talk to others. :o
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Ok, I've read the comments again. I will be removing the last two comments here, and issuing a warning to nightjumper71.
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I will offer an apology to EvikiW. That's not who i am, but my melt down point is being called a liar. You should understand more so than the rest if you believe"Cooper" is your father, why i did not and will not call the FBI on a family member even knowing he has passed. I hope you find true closure. If you would like me to leave this forum I will do so, but i refuse to disrupt his living family members at this point.
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Nightjumper71, you seem to be stirring the pot pretty well for being on this forum for a couple days.
My assessment of Mr.Smith and never meeting him...Over weight pin head in his 50s? Has extreme tiny guy syndrome. Probably lives in mommy's basement or old mobile home. Probably never made over 40k a year and girl's think he smells like hog dung. Bet im damn close !
This is not Facebook. If I see another comment like the one above, you will be removed from this forum. do I make myself clear?
You are making some rather strong claims, and you need to put some validation into these statements. If I want to hear another story I can easily look up the Kenny Christiansen saga.
Questions have been asked...
I expect you to return with a positive attitude, and answer questions. some of the members might of been a little hard on you, but returning fire with personal attacks will not be tolerated. consider this fair warning my friend.
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I'm way to busy for Facebook and to old. I was not the first to attack, Mr.Smith was if you reread postings. He was not warned ? My claims are valid and have been confirmed. I'm watching what say because i was informed via email that a certain person on here is a small time journalist with a lawyer buddy that loves starting trouble.
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I'm way to busy for Facebook and to old. I was not the first to attack, Mr.Smith was if you reread postings. He was not warned ? My claims are valid and have been confirmed. I'm watching what say because i was informed via email that a certain person on here is a small time journalist with a lawyer buddy that loves starting trouble.
So, now you want to argue with me? I just read Bruce's comments to you, and I don't see anything remotely close to your comments. in fact, right after the comments between the two of you in the beginning I warned both of you!
"Ok, you both have made your statements. lets keep on track of the discussion and try and move forward."
This discussion is over....
Shutter
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next general noob question:
how significant is it that (other than the Tina bar find) none of the money has ever turned up?
if cooper had survived and spent the money, would we expect some bank somewhere to have found one of the bills? I know the serial numbers were made public, and banks were told to look out for them. but, while I don't know exactly how this worked, I can't imagine it was that complete of a dragnet. i certainly doubt every teller in the country was checking every bill they handled. and even if they were in '71 and '72, there's no way they're still doing it (though, post 1995 or so, it becomes easier to imagine this being done electronically....?)
on the other hand, it was a large sum of money. so if cooper spent it, and then it got spent by others, and then spent by still others, you'd expect it disperse over time, for more people to handle the cooper money, and for the odds of someone catching a bill to go up.
so, again, what's the executive summary on arguments about this? I'll take a link to one if it already exists. though I'll also accept another one of George's good posts, if he doesn't mind doing the work!
Sorry to keep you hanging DB Cooper. as far as I know every 20 that came into banks was not checked, they would of been looking for large amounts. it was to much work checking every 20 in every bank across the country.
I can find you some links, but you might want to read out Tina Bar thread for starters....
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Alright Gentlemen, the facts and you can take them and twist them until it to is "just another story".
Facts:
Touched down Merwin Dam
Picked up in Yale
Dropped off in Washougal
Train to just south of Stevenso, stayed 1 day.
Walked to Carson, stayed a day and a half.
Picked up, crossed into Oregon via route 35.
Destination Eugene Oregon.
Returned to Washougal in August 1973 to retrieve cash.
Returned to Eugene and never left.
There is what happened, now screw it up royal boys!
Intriguing. How did part of the ransom end up at Tena Bar?
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How is that not "just another story"
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Alright Gentlemen, the facts and you can take them and twist them until it to is "just another story".
Facts:
Touched down Merwin Dam
Picked up in Yale
Dropped off in Washougal
Train to just south of Stevenso, stayed 1 day.
Walked to Carson, stayed a day and a half.
Picked up, crossed into Oregon via route 35.
Destination Eugene Oregon.
Returned to Washougal in August 1973 to retrieve cash.
Returned to Eugene and never left.
There is what happened, now screw it up royal boys!
Intriguing. How did part of the ransom end up at Tena Bar?
Returned to Eugene and never left.
Poster is well read enough to incorporate Eugene in his tale. Eugene is of course pivotal in several chapters of the Cooper story.
~Tina at Eugene.
~Duane's friend alleged to live at Eugene. (Jo Weber)
~LD association with Eugene. (Marla)
~Mitchell says the FBI showed him a lot of pictures, mostly of people by agents out of the Eugene office.
~other Eugene references not commonly known or posted ...
Hmmm. The poster was paying attention. He noted Eugene linkage and uses it as a key element in his fiction. ;)
Conclusion: Cooper returns to his homebase Eugene OR and lives happily ever after. All things revolve around Eugene - a Camelot perhaps in the Cooper saga. Otherwise poster needs to show some proof for his assertions above.
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I'm way to busy for Facebook and to old. I was not the first to attack, Mr.Smith was if you reread postings. He was not warned ? My claims are valid and have been confirmed. I'm watching what say because i was informed via email that a certain person on here is a small time journalist with a lawyer buddy that loves starting trouble.
NJ71,
I think the issue I'm having here is the same we have other people with preferred suspects. They know someone who told them they were Cooper. Or, they know someone who told them someone else was Cooper. There was even one case where someone's shocked reaction to the suggestion of someone being Cooper was enough to convince him his suspect was Cooper. They all believe their suspect is valid and confirmed. We even have one who insists the FBI told him he solved the case.
You also believe that about your suspect. But, you don't want to reveal the name. Do you want to reveal HOW your suspect is "valid and confirmed"? If you don't, I'm having a hard time figuring out what your angle is.
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Cooper in Carson Re-Cap, II
As I understand NJ-71, here is the latest:
1. DB Cooper landed in the Merwin Dam area successfully, then walked about ten miles east to Yale, WA.
2. In or around Yale, an unnamed individual(s) drove DB Cooper twenty miles south to Washougal, where the skyjacker buried the money, got on a train, freight most likely since passenger service is non-existent, I believe.
3. DB Cooper traveled about 30 miles to Carson, where he disembarked and walked to the next town, Stevenson, about five miles away. There he was spotted by a 17-year old girl - now 60 - who talked to him in the vicinity of a grocery store. NJ-71 is now looking for this witness.
4. Some time afterwards, another individual or the same as in Yale, drove DB Cooper to Eugene along Rte 35. How far is unknown as Carson is on the Columbia River. Eventually DB Cooper traveled about 120 miles south by unknown means to Eugene, Oregon .
5. DB Cooper returned to the money in August 1973, dug it up, and returned to Eugene, which is kind of a psychic center for DB Cooper principals - the skyjacker himself, plus his two primary witnesses Tina Mucklow and Bill Mitchell. Later, the "most promising" suspect LD Cooper joined the gang, dying in Dale Miller's (aka Santa Claus) half-way house for felons and wayward lads out by the airport, circa 1999. DB Cooper remains in Eugene until the present day, along with Tina, who doesn't live too far away in Springfield, but works in Eugene. DB Cooper has kept his nose clean ever since 1971, but now NJ-71 is unleashing the Forces of Justice to return once more to comb the streets of Eugene looking for traces of Norjak.
6. NJ-71 says he doesn't want to tell us the name of DB Cooper because he doesn't want to upset his family.
7. NJ-71 states that at least one, and probably two individuals, drove DB Cooper, so we are looking for additional witnesses to talk with.
NJ-71, can we have the names of these individuals so we can confirm your account of DB Cooper?
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Cousin Brucie's personal hygiene, Update:
Once again, Da Cuz' body odor, physical size and other characteristics are being assessed. As I did on the DZ, I am providing an update to clear the air, so to speak.
1. Since I am Lehighdropout'71, that means I was 22 when Coop jumped. That means 43 years later I am now 65. I am currently 50 pounds overweight (240 lbs). Cardiac doc wants me down to 180, which is fucking crazy. I would be happy to be the same weight as when I dropped out of Lehigh University in 1970, which was about 190.
2. As for body odors, we had a survey at the DZ about two years ago and EVicki said I didn't stink then, and I haven't taken any fewers showers since then, so I think I'm okay.
3. As for my sex life, well, the last few women I asked on a date complained that I was too poor, which is similar to what my second ex-wife said as we were discussing our future. Her exact quote was: "If you'd had 50K in the bank, I'd stay. I'm tired of living like a hippie." Also, and I admit this, my narcissistic tendencies tend to keep women away.
4. As for mommies, I acknowledge that I have Mommy issues. I wanted to move back to Mom's house in NY two years ago, but she refused to allow me. As a result, I had to stay in my 16-foot RV trailer, where I've been for the past fourteen years.
5. My earning power never reached 40K. 34K was my best. Currently, I am awaiting a $150 royalty check from Amazon for the 30 Cooper books sold since March.
6. As for Tiny Guy Syndrome, I'm not sure what that is exactly, but my current behavioral health diagnosis is more along the lines of Axis II, with a focus on anger and grief.
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... My claims are valid and have been confirmed....
Confirmed by whom?
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I really do not understand why you Gentleman are being so sarcastic to me? Did your Uncle/Daddy ruin your life with those late night visits? Come on, grow up, present yourselves as men !
This sounds like a taunt from an angry woman, possibly one that has been abused.
What gender are you NJ-71?
Just askin'.
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I think this has gone on long enough. NJ71 needs to show some sort of proof to what he/she is claiming. why would someone post things like this on a public forum, and then refuse to state any names, or protect family members?
this is beginning to take form of a never ending circle of undocumented "facts" another poster on DZ used. it's not going to continue here.
who confirmed anything you claim, you?
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next general noob question:
how significant is it that (other than the Tina bar find) none of the money has ever turned up?
if cooper had survived and spent the money, would we expect some bank somewhere to have found one of the bills? I know the serial numbers were made public, and banks were told to look out for them. but, while I don't know exactly how this worked, I can't imagine it was that complete of a dragnet. i certainly doubt every teller in the country was checking every bill they handled. and even if they were in '71 and '72, there's no way they're still doing it (though, post 1995 or so, it becomes easier to imagine this being done electronically....?)
on the other hand, it was a large sum of money. so if cooper spent it, and then it got spent by others, and then spent by still others, you'd expect it disperse over time, for more people to handle the cooper money, and for the odds of someone catching a bill to go up.
so, again, what's the executive summary on arguments about this? I'll take a link to one if it already exists. though I'll also accept another one of George's good posts, if he doesn't mind doing the work!
Sorry to keep you hanging DB Cooper. as far as I know every 20 that came into banks was not checked, they would of been looking for large amounts. it was to much work checking every 20 in every bank across the country.
I can find you some links, but you might want to read out Tina Bar thread for starters....
no worries, and thanks. will check out Tina bar thread.
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Good luck with chasing your tail's Gentlemen. You have the social skills of a dormant slug. You speak of people that you think i am and it greatly amuses me. As i said in the beginning i could sence you were the type to twist and bend fact's in order to make your mythical BS sound sweet. You board jack asses do not want the truth, you just want something to do in life....how sad! What magnificent fools you really are. Good Luck !
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By refusing to verify anything hardly makes your case worth discussing. instead, you choose to insult again...
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Nightjumper71 has lost his posting abilities.
End of story!
Shutter
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Why does it always come down to us not wanting the truth? we have a couple others who use this very same line, and yet all of them can't be speaking the truth, can they?
None of them show any actual proof. the last time I checked, it was up to them to show the truth....
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Here's my take on this phenomenon:
I sense that folks like NJ-71 have been telling their story in hushed tones to a select audience that treat it as true and sacred. They listen in rapt attention.
But, when tell us, guys like NJ-71 get a very different reception and the tellers get rattled. In response, they blame us for not wanting the truth - a truth that was revered by others around the campfire late at night, or the kitchen table, at the Lions club bar, etc.
Something like that happened to me. For years I had held people spellbound around a BBQ fire or a table. I was a top-notch raconteur. But when I took my stories to a stage, the impact was much different and I was unnerved.
What we have just witnessed here with NJ-71 is part of the Norjak dynamic. The forces of attraction to this story are very powerful, and they sweep in lots of different kinds of folks.
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I believe it helps take attention away of the original questions, or claims. like a magician does, distraction....
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That, too.
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It's sad people acts this way. I figured a problem would occur with night71. he claims he lives in one state, while his IP comes from another. that's verified 8)
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I believe it helps take attention away of the original questions, or claims. like a magician does, distraction....
My guess is he has an actual theory based on a ton of personal reading, thought, and his own personal instincts.
We should be honored he brought it here to share with the unwashed. :P He may be right. Or he may be Letterman and tomorrow is his last act. Or he may be DB Cooper! Dormant slug? :-* ;D ;D Back to the drawing board with the A team!
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Where do slugs come from? Do they over-winter in the ground somehow?
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Where do slugs come from? Do they over-winter in the ground somehow?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slug
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Eggs.
Sigh.
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Eggs.
Sigh.
So, with your expertise in the DB Cooper case and now a book on the subject, what is your resolution of the conflict between the FBI flightpath/drop zone vs. the money find at Tina Bar?
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Resolution? I have none.
But I am following your work closely, as usual!
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Resolution? I have none.
But I am following your work closely, as usual!
If you had the chance to interview Alice Hancock....What would you ask?
I spoke with one of my residents who knows her. She had mentioned to him that the sketch is too thin and is not accurate to what she remembers.
He is going to ask her if she is willing to answer some questions.
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Questions for Alice Hancock:
1. What's been the impact of the skyjacking in your life?
2. What do you remember? What was your role in the hijacking? What did you do?
3. Are there any parts of the general story that you feel need to be corrected, expanded or changed in any way?
4. Any thoughts on why Tina and Florence aren't talking to the media?
5. What was your role in the investigation? What's your impression of the FBI? Any thoughts on why the case is still unsolved?
6. Would you like a copy of my book?
7. Thanks for talking with us.
And thank you EVick-
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What is your view on some of the famous suspects, Kenny Christiansen, Duane Weber etc.
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Resolution? I have none.
But I am following your work closely, as usual!
If you had the chance to interview Alice Hancock....What would you ask?
I spoke with one of my residents who knows her. She had mentioned to him that the sketch is too thin and is not accurate to what she remembers.
He is going to ask her if she is willing to answer some questions.
It would be wonderful if she would look at photos of the missing men we've been talking about and maybe a few other suspects. A one page collage of each suspect could be created and "what resembles Cooper the most?" and "What least resembles Cooper?" could be asked of each suspect.
I also like Bruce's questions:
1. What's been the impact of the skyjacking in your life?
2. What do you remember? What was your role in the hijacking? What did you do?
3. Are there any parts of the general story that you feel need to be corrected, expanded or changed in any way?
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Resolution? I have none.
But I am following your work closely, as usual!
If you had the chance to interview Alice Hancock....What would you ask?
I spoke with one of my residents who knows her. She had mentioned to him that the sketch is too thin and is not accurate to what she remembers.
He is going to ask her if she is willing to answer some questions.
It would be wonderful if she would look at photos of the missing men we've been talking about and maybe a few other suspects. A one page collage of each suspect could be created and "what resembles Cooper the most?" and "What least resembles Cooper?" could be asked of each suspect.
I also like Bruce's questions:
1. What's been the impact of the skyjacking in your life?
2. What do you remember? What was your role in the hijacking? What did you do?
3. Are there any parts of the general story that you feel need to be corrected, expanded or changed in any way?
I am not sure if she will talk to any of us yet. I have known for a few years that a resident at my community was a friend of hers. We started talking today and I asked if he could talk to her and she would either agree to talk with a reporter at THe Mountain News. Or. if she was uncomfortable talking to anyone, would she answer some questions.
So....we will see what happens. No promises.
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Resolution? I have none.
But I am following your work closely, as usual!
If you had the chance to interview Alice Hancock....What would you ask?
I spoke with one of my residents who knows her. She had mentioned to him that the sketch is too thin and is not accurate to what she remembers.
He is going to ask her if she is willing to answer some questions.
It would be wonderful if she would look at photos of the missing men we've been talking about and maybe a few other suspects. A one page collage of each suspect could be created and "what resembles Cooper the most?" and "What least resembles Cooper?" could be asked of each suspect.
I also like Bruce's questions:
1. What's been the impact of the skyjacking in your life?
2. What do you remember? What was your role in the hijacking? What did you do?
3. Are there any parts of the general story that you feel need to be corrected, expanded or changed in any way?
I am not sure if she will talk to any of us yet. I have known for a few years that a resident at my community was a friend of hers. We started talking today and I asked if he could talk to her and she would either agree to talk with a reporter at THe Mountain News. Or. if she was uncomfortable talking to anyone, would she answer some questions.
So....we will see what happens. No promises.
Maybe she hasn't kept up with the case at all since it happened? That's the first question I would ask, since all other questions almost depend on that! She may not care about the Cooper matter at all! ;D
She probably never heard of any of us! ! ! :-\ :-* :-* :-* or Cousin Bruce Smith esq! If she finds out Bruce stalked Tina Mucklow he is probably SOL. Bruce definitely does NOT represent the mainstream or us (that's the under statement of the decade!).
Just wondering. Has she followed the case at all since it happened? !
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Galen told me that he had located Alice a few years ago, contacted her, and that she had agreed to help him try to make contact with Tina, which was unsuccessful.
So, I gather that she is knowledgeable of the case.
Also, I am greatly offended that anyone would say I "stalked" Tina. I did not. Yes, I was determined to meet her, but I did so through wholly appropriate avenues of journalistic endeavor - family, friends, the nuns, etc. Yes, I knocked on her front door, and when she asked me to leave I did.
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Galen told me that he had located Alice a few years ago, contacted her, and that she had agreed to help him try to make contact with Tina, which was unsuccessful.
So, I gather that she is knowledgeable of the case.
Also, I am greatly offended that anyone would say I "stalked" Tina. I did not. Yes, I was determined to meet her, but I did so through wholly appropriate avenues of journalistic endeavor - family, friends, the nuns, etc. Yes, I knocked on her front door, and when she asked me to leave I did.
My original questions stands: "Has she followed the case at all since it happened? ! "
I would make no assumptions based on remote viewing of this n that fertilized by wishful thinking and the desire for yet another groundbreaking coup d'état.
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Resolution? I have none.
But I am following your work closely, as usual!
If you had the chance to interview Alice Hancock....What would you ask?
I spoke with one of my residents who knows her. She had mentioned to him that the sketch is too thin and is not accurate to what she remembers.
He is going to ask her if she is willing to answer some questions.
It would be wonderful if she would look at photos of the missing men we've been talking about and maybe a few other suspects. A one page collage of each suspect could be created and "what resembles Cooper the most?" and "What least resembles Cooper?" could be asked of each suspect.
I also like Bruce's questions:
1. What's been the impact of the skyjacking in your life?
2. What do you remember? What was your role in the hijacking? What did you do?
3. Are there any parts of the general story that you feel need to be corrected, expanded or changed in any way?
I am not sure if she will talk to any of us yet. I have known for a few years that a resident at my community was a friend of hers. We started talking today and I asked if he could talk to her and she would either agree to talk with a reporter at THe Mountain News. Or. if she was uncomfortable talking to anyone, would she answer some questions.
So....we will see what happens. No promises.
Vicki - there is nothing to prevent you from interviewing Hancock yourself. You are an intelligent sensitive woman! You know the issues at stake. Hancock might be more responsive to you than anyone else. That might be the very best path to follow? Good luck.
:)
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Galen has told me that both Alice and Andy Anderson are knowledgeable of the case.
Yes, G, I think that EViki should chat with Alice herself. Then, perhaps a conference call would be suitable as well.
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This was done very well IMO.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EI12IaNfXeU
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It amazes me how many guys who talk about DB Cooper, make videos, etc, get so much wrong. Inconclusive money find???
I thought the money stuck in his coat like a clown was cool, though.
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Yep, I seen that. I was talking about the production of the video. there was something else wrong, but I can't recall at the moment.
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Yep, I seen that. I was talking about the production of the video. there was something else wrong, but I can't recall at the moment.
None of the pilots were Black. :o
The anchor did not look like a zombie and come off like he knows the encyclopedia by heart (and your motivations too!) ;D ! That's progress!! :) Videos should not be made by psycho patients on Ward IV who also have videos on their target shooting, Dialectical Materialism, and "How to Find Nazis in Argentina in your spare time" ?! :-*
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Yep, I seen that. I was talking about the production of the video. there was something else wrong, but I can't recall at the moment.
None of the pilots were Black. :o
The anchor did not look like a zombie and come off like he knows the encyclopedia by heart (and your motivations too!) ;D ! That's progress!! :)
I just liked the concept of it for some reason.....it would make a good intro if things were accurate.
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Yep, I seen that. I was talking about the production of the video. there was something else wrong, but I can't recall at the moment.
None of the pilots were Black. :o
The anchor did not look like a zombie and come off like he knows the encyclopedia by heart (and your motivations too!) ;D ! That's progress!! :)
I just liked the concept of it for some reason.....it would make a good intro if things were accurate.
Yes, the tone is better but with lots of basic errors. Was the FBI "tailing the aircraft"? (errors like that). The next morning reporters and the FBI descended on the town of Ariel Washington .... scoured the place looking for Cooper ... but found nothing. They have the age of Cooper about right. Money stuck to his vest ... poker player!
I think one of the untold stories of the Cooper case is all of the independent people who searched for Cooper, in one fashion or another. I am sure you could collect personal anecdotes from at least 100 different people who looked for Cooper in one form or another, who talked to law enforcement people, etc etc etc. The collected stories from all of those people would make an interesting read - but again a collection of such stories has never emerged 20 years late!
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Robert99 contacted me through a PM stating he has spoken with Meyer Louie. they wanted me to post his comment on the forum.
I would like to add a few things before I paste his reply. I have a lot of respect for Meyer, I read a lot of his comments on DZ prior to even speaking with him personally. he has a lot of knowledge, and was always involved with any road trips about Cooper. he joined this forum when it first started, but had some personal issues to take care of which anyone could easily understand. we all have a life outside of good old DB Cooper.
I'm glad you have made a full recovery, and hope you continue to have good health for many years ahead. I hope to meet you one day. I believe you share the same sense of humor I have, making it to be a meeting to remember.
As for the Atlas Media dealings. yes, I've done the Skype thingy twice with them, and will be doing another this Tuesday. it appears they are not leaving any rocks unturned.
I'll be looking forward to seeing your name at the bottom of this forum as an active member soon, but please continue to get better, and we all miss you here.....
Shutter
Message below is from Meyer Louie....."The Man Of the Month"
Robert99 and all my DB Cooper colleagues:
It's taken me a year to reply. Sorry for the delay. I missed y'all a lot. Been busy trying to make living in a new area and get healthy again. I live in eastern Washington now, the Okanogan valley, north central washington. I took a math teaching job with Wenatchee Valley College. It didn't work out. So, I am looking to be gainfully employed again -- back to the drawing board.
Also, a year and a half ago, I had a stroke in my right eye, what's called a retinal vein occlusion. Lost about 70% of my eye sight, but with treatment, I have gotten 99% of it back. Lots of annoying floaters to deal with though, but at least I have most of my right eye sight back. I still sing and oil paint.
Enough about me -- got some new stuff regarding the case. This morning, I did a skype interview with Mark Dalbis, casting manager for Atlas Media, Burbank, CA. Mark is trying to develop a quality program about the Cooper case, lots of people are still interested and intrigued, and he wants to talk to several of us who have some knowledge and expertise in the case. A quality documentary production is in the offing. I must admit, I wasn't as sharp as I would have liked, I was rusty on names, dates, and facts -- I've been away too long. I did my best though -- I told Mark I believe my strength is more in the relationships and friendships I have kindled with all you -- my DB Cooper friends and colleagues. I have made a serious attempt to get to know and interact with as many of you as I have been able. It's been good, it's been rich -- the DZ forum, the WA state history museum DB Cooper exhibit, the 2011 symposium, several field trips to Tina Bar and Amboy with Bruce and Robert99, marathon phone conversations with Jo -- and on and on. Mark appears to be a straight up guy. He told me he would be willing to talk to Jo, Georger, Shutter, Safecrack, and Brian Ingram -- if you would like. You may get your 15 minutes of fame. When he edits down the interviews, there's a better than not chance you will be appearing on the program -- which Mark is hoping the History Channel or Dateline or whoever will pick up the production and broadcast it. Mark stressed he wanted the production to be correct, quality information.
Has anyone else done an interview with Mark Dalbis?
So good to be back. I missed you!
Meyer
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Bruce Smith You say "I thought the money stuck in his coat like a clown was cool, though."
I say: "What is wrong with the theory that DB offered three bundles of $20's to the Flight Crew and it was turned down, so he then stuffed the bundles into the paper bag he brought on the plane and then stuffed the bag with the three bundles inside his shirt but it blew out when he jumped. The bag served to keep the bundles together until buried on the beach but rotted away leaving the three bundles together until found."
Just thinking about it here in Paris France,
Bob Sailshaw
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Robert99 contacted me through a PM stating he has spoken with Meyer Louie. they wanted me to post his comment on the forum.
I would like to add a few things before I paste his reply. I have a lot of respect for Meyer, I read a lot of his comments on DZ prior to even speaking with him personally. he has a lot of knowledge, and was always involved with any road trips about Cooper. he joined this forum when it first started, but had some personal issues to take care of which anyone could easily understand. we all have a life outside of good old DB Cooper.
I'm glad you have made a full recovery, and hope you continue to have good health for many years ahead. I hope to meet you one day. I believe you share the same sense of humor I have, making it to be a meeting to remember.
As for the Atlas Media dealings. yes, I've done the Skype thingy twice with them, and will be doing another this Tuesday. it appears they are not leaving any rocks unturned.
I'll be looking forward to seeing your name at the bottom of this forum as an active member soon, but please continue to get better, and we all miss you here.....
Shutter
Message below is from Meyer Louie....."The Man Of the Month"
Robert99 and all my DB Cooper colleagues:
It's taken me a year to reply. Sorry for the delay. I missed y'all a lot. Been busy trying to make living in a new area and get healthy again. I live in eastern Washington now, the Okanogan valley, north central washington. I took a math teaching job with Wenatchee Valley College. It didn't work out. So, I am looking to be gainfully employed again -- back to the drawing board.
Also, a year and a half ago, I had a stroke in my right eye, what's called a retinal vein occlusion. Lost about 70% of my eye sight, but with treatment, I have gotten 99% of it back. Lots of annoying floaters to deal with though, but at least I have most of my right eye sight back. I still sing and oil paint.
Enough about me -- got some new stuff regarding the case. This morning, I did a skype interview with Mark Dalbis, casting manager for Atlas Media, Burbank, CA. Mark is trying to develop a quality program about the Cooper case, lots of people are still interested and intrigued, and he wants to talk to several of us who have some knowledge and expertise in the case. A quality documentary production is in the offing. I must admit, I wasn't as sharp as I would have liked, I was rusty on names, dates, and facts -- I've been away too long. I did my best though -- I told Mark I believe my strength is more in the relationships and friendships I have kindled with all you -- my DB Cooper friends and colleagues. I have made a serious attempt to get to know and interact with as many of you as I have been able. It's been good, it's been rich -- the DZ forum, the WA state history museum DB Cooper exhibit, the 2011 symposium, several field trips to Tina Bar and Amboy with Bruce and Robert99, marathon phone conversations with Jo -- and on and on. Mark appears to be a straight up guy. He told me he would be willing to talk to Jo, Georger, Shutter, Safecrack, and Brian Ingram -- if you would like. You may get your 15 minutes of fame. When he edits down the interviews, there's a better than not chance you will be appearing on the program -- which Mark is hoping the History Channel or Dateline or whoever will pick up the production and broadcast it. Mark stressed he wanted the production to be correct, quality information.
Has anyone else done an interview with Mark Dalbis?
So good to be back. I missed you!
Meyer
Meyer, it's good to hear from you. I hope things turn better and less stressful for you.
Take care Meyer.
G.
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Bruce Smith You say "I thought the money stuck in his coat like a clown was cool, though."
I say: "What is wrong with the theory that DB offered three bundles of $20's to the Flight Crew and it was turned down, so he then stuffed the bundles into the paper bag he brought on the plane and then stuffed the bag with the three bundles inside his shirt but it blew out when he jumped. The bag served to keep the bundles together until buried on the beach but rotted away leaving the three bundles together until found."
Just thinking about it here in Paris France,
Bob Sailshaw
Same ole problems. Nobody said anything or gave a count about '3 bundolas' and the money went back into the bag from Cooper's own hand in any event ... I dont know WHY people keep trying to make something out of nothing!
Prior to that of course both Flo and Tina reported Cooper very excited 'child-like' and physically animated at the sight of all of the money in the bag ... as if her had never seen more than $5 in one place at one time in his life! He was temporarily overcome with gladness? :D One has to think it was also a personal victory he was experiencing in getting authorities to delivery such a sum, in the first place! In a place and time where he could personally savour it without fear of immediate intervention ....
But the bomb and the threat of a bomb was not far from the stew's mind during any of this watching Cooper's antics. It may have reduced the tension for a moment, and nothing more. :D
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Alright Gentlemen, the facts and you can take them and twist them until it to is "just another story".
Facts:
Touched down Merwin Dam
Picked up in Yale
Dropped off in Washougal
Train to just south of Stevenso, stayed 1 day.
Walked to Carson, stayed a day and a half.
Picked up, crossed into Oregon via route 35.
Destination Eugene Oregon.
Returned to Washougal in August 1973 to retrieve cash.
Returned to Eugene and never left.
There is what happened, now screw it up royal boys!
I dont have the adverse reaction to Nightjumper71 the rest of you, particularly Shutter and Bruce Smith, seem to have. To be sure some proof or at least some series of logic is required in order to validate theory like the above, however: Why bypass the opportunity to learn something rather than closing the door on Nightjumper71 too quickly?
For one thing, Nightjumper71's theory has Eugene at it's center and that intrigues me because known facts of the DB Cooper case do involve Eugene. Let me mention some of those facts:
1. Mitchell says he was told that photos being shown him by FBI agents were weighted in favor of 'suspects in the Eugene area'. Several reasons may account for this -
2. Those of us who have researched this case know that after flight 305 passed out of Portland and Eugene airspace headed for Reno on the evening of 11-24-71, a discussion developed between controllers about an event that had occurred a week before in Eugene airspace with somebody dropping flares at night from a private plane. This ultimately involved law enforcement before it ended with a reports being filed with the FAA and the FBI. When things began to settle down at Portland and Eugene on the evening of 11-24-71, controllers began to discuss if the Eugene incident and the (Cooper) hijacking still in progress could be related.
This alone would be sufficient reason for agents at Eugene to pull photos of people in the Eugene area to show Cooper hijacking witnesses like Mitchell, looking for a relationship between the prior incident at Eugene and the Cooper hijacking.
Hours later of course and into the next day on 11-25-71, 'Janet' and her husband at Portland-Vancouver made their own 'flare or fire' report. Janet claims the FBI showed up at her front door and told her to say nothing further!
3. We have very little information about what agents at Eugene did in the DB Cooper case. Nightjumper71 has some reason for bringing Eugene into his theory. I would like to know why Nightjumper71 thinks 'Eugene' is important in the DB Cooper case.
4. We have been accused by Mr. Blevins of being opportunistic, Cooper Royalty, biased, invoking censorship for no good reason etc etc etc etc etc! I hope there is no truth to his claims. Let's not over-react here in this forum just because of the Venom Magnet, and our bad experiences with Robert M Blevins and Jo Weber!
That's all I have to say.
;)
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I dont have the adverse reaction to Nightjumper71 the rest of you, particularly Shutter and Bruce Smith, seem to have. To be sure some proof or at least some series of logic is required in order to validate theory like the above, however: Why bypass the opportunity to learn something rather than closing the door on Nightjumper71 too quickly?
He was asked several times, and by several members to state some sort of proof. he always responded with personal attacks. now, he's not permanently banned. I thought I would stop him for a while to possibly reconsider his approach. my decision was based on my opinion only. if Bruce agreed with my conclusion, that was his personal view as well. I said at the beginning that he was more than welcome to state his claim, but seemed resistant when asked for any type verification. I'm not going to allow him to continue the way he was in the past.
When people use the claim of not wanting the truth. this causes me concern. why would someone not want the truth? now, if you want me to lift the current ban he has, I will do it if you feel his comments are worth reviewing. it's your call?
Added: He was personal in his attacks, along with the name calling. I give two shits what Blevin's thinks about it!!
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I wish NJ-71 had stayed around long enough to tell us how, where and when he got his story.
I recommend lifting whatever ban has been imposed.
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I revoked his posting privileges due to his behavior. he can still see the site. If Georger also agree's, which I believe he will. I'll allow him to post again.
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I revoked his posting privileges due to his behavior. he can still see the site. If Georger also agree's, which I believe he will. I'll allow him to post again.
Thats fine with me - I kind of hated to see him chased off if he didnt want to leave.
I have thought all along that Blevins footprint is large - he did a lot of damage to people. The idea we are Royalty and biased and censor people for no reason is total bunk.
I would have given several warnings about personal attack and if it continued then maybe act... but N71 has some reason for his theory.
Lets discuss the case and its factual evidence if we can and try and get beyond all of this personal ka ka started by Blevins and Weber. Discussing the case is why we are here.
The FACT is: there is a strong factual Eugene connection in the DB Cooper case. I want to hear more about it. And I just HATE discussion about the case being washed away due to stronger "social media" concerns.
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Warnings were given. It's pretty simple when you come to a forum. you need to respect the one's around you. I'm sure if you allowed me in your home, you wouldn't appreciate me putting my feet on your coffee table? same apply's here. some jabs were tossed his way, and he returned fire. I told him and Bruce to end the shots, and move forward. he was warned again after the first time, so I had to do something the third time around.
I will remove the block, but he will be watched carefully....I never disrespected him, and I won't allow him to disrespect others!
Shutter
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Bruce Smith You say "I thought the money stuck in his coat like a clown was cool, though."
I say: "What is wrong with the theory that DB offered three bundles of $20's to the Flight Crew and it was turned down, so he then stuffed the bundles into the paper bag he brought on the plane and then stuffed the bag with the three bundles inside his shirt but it blew out when he jumped. The bag served to keep the bundles together until buried on the beach but rotted away leaving the three bundles together until found."
Just thinking about it here in Paris France,
Bob Sailshaw
Bonjour, M'sieur Sail. Comment ca va?
Three bundolas in a bag tucked into a shirt? Sure it's possible; it's just unconfirmed and not substantiated by any known facts.
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I'm working on the crew notes for the website. I just noticed something, not sure if it's the same term but on page 4 of the notes it states this....
2310 – wants money in
negotiable currency
to be passed ?+? a
crew member
2320 – wants everything
ready before
landing
Now, it appears it might be "passed by, or to a crew member". I've noticed with knowing several Canadians that they tend to say pass, instead of borrow, or give etc. my buddy was always using this term. "pass me 5 bucks" pass me the remote"
Just a thought.....
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I'm working on the crew notes for the website. I just noticed something, not sure if it's the same term but on page 4 of the notes it states this....
2310 – wants money in
negotiable currency
to be passed ?+? a
crew member
2320 – wants everything
ready before
landing
Now, it appears it might be "passed by, or to a crew member". I've noticed with knowing several Canadians that they tend to say pass, instead of borrow, or give etc. my buddy was always using this term. "pass me 5 bucks" pass me the remote"
Just a thought.....
This came up before on DZ. No definite answer there. But others noticed it .... let me ask some family members. eh?
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One of my wives was Canadian, and although I don't remember a whole lot about her I don't remember the pass thingy at all.
But I do remember that she said a-boat for about, claiming it was her family's Newfie influences.
I also applied for Canadian immigration a couple of times - called Landed Immigrant status - but was turned down once and I don't remember anything about passing then either. The second application didn't get too far as that was my honey-bun's job.....hence, the Big D.
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One of my wives was Canadian, and although I don't remember a whole lot about her I don't remember the pass thingy at all.
But I do remember that she said a-boat for about, claiming it was her family's Newfie influences.
I also applied for Canadian immigration a couple of times - called Landed Immigrant status - but was turned down once and I don't remember anything about passing then either. The second application didn't get too far as that was my honey-bun's job.....hence, the Big D.
Not all Canadians speak this way. my buddy lives in Quebec, he doesn't say "eh" either, but uses the "pass" phrase. it depends on the location, just as it does here.
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So, basically most believe Cooper lived in the U.S.?
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I would say he was an American, but not necessarily living in the United States.
Ted? Petey?
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Skydived last Sunday with 10 Meter radio gear (10 M is a ham band very close to the CB band). Got numerous contacts from aloft starting at about 10,000 ft. Used a trailing wire antenna and a AA cell powered very small radio (Yaesu FT 817). Got really good signal reports from hams as far as 60 miles away.
Not saying Cooper used radio gear.... but had he done so it would have likely worked.
See attached pic.
377
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That's like a 10,000 foot antenna :o
Looks like a King 90 behind you there....
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Correct! King Air A 90. Our prior one was totaled last Dec. Pilot forgot to put the gear down for landing. CRUNCH.
377
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WHAT????
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377 Good job of testing the use of Ham gear close to the freq of CB gear for distance. I think Sheridan/DB would have used CB gear to talk with his two ground men. Possibly Earl Cossey and Duane Webber. Jo has talked about the radio gear that Duane had in his car and how he talked with everything including towers in the dropzone for Norjak. Duane also knew too much about the caper to be just a bystander and not involved. Such quotes from Duane as "maybe I was his groundman?" to Jo's question "how do you know the North end of Lake Lacama is where DB came out of the woods?".
I suspect Cossey as the other groundman based upon his rapid and shocking denial of knowing Sheridan Peterson when I asked on the phone with him and then his withdrawal from a lunch date with me. Cossey had to know Sheridan as the Boeing Skydiving Club was working out of the same Issaquah dropzone where Cossey worked as a rigger. The two would have had a lot of time together to cook up the perfect plan.
Bob Sailshaw
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I too think Cossey must have known Sheridan but denying it doesn't prove any involvement in NORJACK. Cossey is a puzzle. He has said many inconsistent things. It could be that he just enjoyed "messing" with people.
I doubt if his murder had any connection to NORJACK but that's just speculation. The police sure don't appear to be making progress on solving the case.
Maybe Bruce can remote view the murder and tell us what happened. He's already remote viewed Cooper's 727 run. 😉
Bruce's book was featured in Parachutist magazine. Not a paid plug. Yay for Bruce. Musika F must be feeling the pressure.
377
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If only I could feel Mooshie's heart beating close to mine....
Remote view Cossey's murder? Great idea, Three.
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If only I could feel Mooshie's heart beating close to mine....
Remote view Cossey's murder? Great idea, Three.
Mooshy? :P
He's dead. You are a sick man. :-X
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Musika told me that she prefers to be called by her nickname, Mooshie, as Musika is pronounced Moosh - e - ka.
As for remote viewing Cossey's death, it sounds like a perfect application of the science of consciousness.
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Musika told me that she prefers to be called by her nickname, Mooshie, as Musika is pronounced Moosh - e - ka.
As for remote viewing Cossey's death, it sounds like a perfect application of the science of consciousness.
We were supposed to know or mindmeld THAT!?
Translation and Meaning of mushy mooshy in Almaany English-Hebrew Dictionary
Sorry, your search did not give any results
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Georger, if you had read and remembered ALL of my posts at the DZ over the years, you would know these details of my relationship with Ms. Farnsworth. And 377's....
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Georger, if you had read and remembered ALL of my posts at the DZ over the years, you would know these details of my relationship with Ms. Farnsworth. And 377's....
Was it important? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Some utterances were more memorable than others, but my musings on the women of Cooper were all gems, imho....
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If only I could feel Mooshie's heart beating close to mine....
Remote view Cossey's murder? Great idea, Three.
See Musika's photo below. Skydiver, author, enigmatic beauty.
377
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Ahhhhh...thanks, Three.
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So here's a question I have that doesn't fit anywhere:
Today ties aren't universal. Most people who wear ties regularly, knot them properly. I know of nobody who wears ties and mixes knotted and clip-on ties. The only people I know who wear clip-on ties are kids working as bus boys in restaurants.
When ties were more universal, did people regularly buy both for convenience?
Ahhhh ... the Necktie! A piece of social ornamentation that infers class, which signals the social order and rights and responsibilities, and the further down the food chain you go the more likely a faux-tie (clip on tie) will appear. Flotsam and jetsam don;t necessarily have the brains to learn how to tie a real tie, much less the training or experience or privilege owing to their station in life. Cooper was announcing he was part of the social order, pure and simple! The question is: which part. :) All parts? Cooper the jester; the Court Fool or Clown?. A man with a Grudge, he said.
All animals have physical signs and adornments of their status and use those signs in life - no less the case for our Jester, Mr. Cooper. Like Bruce Smith flashes and flaunts his 'ornaments" signalling superiority or invitation!
Himmelsbach was very quick to place Cooper into a social status category: foul mouthed person possibly a food service worker : not an ex P51 fighter pilot aviation enthusiast like Himmelsbach himself who has had training and formal clearance but who has never seen actual combat beyond chasing gophers on the golf course in his P51 at government expense! Cooper is at a much lower social status than Himmelsbach who classifies Cooper as a Food Service Worker type. The clip on tie tells it all!
Then Kaye comes along and the evidence on the tie elevates Cooper to a higher status and sphere of learning. Rare earths and research facility with pure Titanium and such. Fool o Prince, it is Cooper doing an actual hijacking in a faux clip on tie no less ... he surely will be a celebrity in the prison yard!
The human Tie, like peacock feather and white furry breast plate - signs of status and intention be that submission or aggression.
Then he took the tie off when the job was done and neatly let it fall between two seats? Or was it on a seat? Our Cooper forensic researchers have yet to clear that point up, or down, as the case may be.
Jesters in a comedy that has no end and plenty of drahma!
Gladys please pass me a stiff drink while I take my tie off, if you please. I have to use a bow tie tonight because Im going to the symphony. I will lift mine eyes -
;D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIXOQUVy16g
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What is the pychological profile of DB Cooper? I mean, a middle aged dude jumping out of an airplane into the wilderness is extreme. He must have felt reached a do-or-die-crisis point to do something like that.
Also, does the fact that he pulled off the crime with such calmness indicate experience in dealing with stressful predicaments? Maybe this enhances the idea that he was a solider.
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Kingdom, there is really no psychological profile on DB Cooper because all of the evidence has to be viewed subjectively, ie: what does a clip-on tie mean, what does his parachute-choice mean, what does his knowledge of the 727 reveal about his background, etc?
In turn, our assessments of Cooper are seen through "cultural goggles." We see Cooper the way we want to see Cooper.
However, I discuss the facts of Cooper's behavior in detail in my book, and the many types of interpretations of his actions. Ten bucks at Amazon gets you DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking.
For me, I tend to agree with the guy flying the plane that DB Cooper was a smart cookie. I also agree with Major John Plaster and Sgt M Billy Waugh that DB Cooper was very likely a well-trained covert commando in Vietnam, such as with a MAC-V-SOG unit.
And Sailshaw's old tennent, Sheridan Peterson, has been investigated twice by the FBI for the skyjacking, so that is compelling as well. Not only is Petey a flinty recluse, he is also a smart guy who revels in weird travel, political hot-spot hopping, and bold skydiving escapades.
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What is the pychological profile of DB Cooper? I mean, a middle aged dude jumping out of an airplane into the wilderness is extreme. He must have felt reached a do-or-die-crisis point to do something like that.
Also, does the fact that he pulled off the crime with such calmness indicate experience in dealing with stressful predicaments? Maybe this enhances the idea that he was a solider.
It may all come down to the nature of Cooper's grudge. Political? Economic? Something else? All of the above?
The FBI has never spoken one syllable to this aspect of the case. But unless the FBI was totally incompetent, which is doubtful, the "grudge" aspect of the case must have caused some investigation we know nothing about. The Cooper hijacking happened in a very highly charged political atmosphere combined with Cuban hijackings, and this possible aspect of the case may be one reason the FBI keeps so much of the hijacking close to its vest - it may not have any choice if other Federal agencies got involved.
It may all come down to the nature of Cooper's grudge in not only defining who Cooper was, what his motivations and social connections were, ... and where to look for such a guy whoever Cooper was. He told Tina he was doing the hijacking because he had a "grudge". He seemed very excited to get the money.
We have no information (and Bruce Smith presents no information in his book) about how Cooper's stated motive of having a grudge lead the FBI investigation, if at all. Did the FBI follow that lead at all?
Contrary to Bruce, there are profiles of Cooper all from different authors competing. We have H's and Tosaw's profile (much alike). The problem with all of these competing profiles is we have little to nail any of them down with - that is the central problem!
Very likely the FBI had several different profile-lines it investigated. Peterson and other known candidates were eliminated in the investigation; supporters of those suspects don;t want to admit this (they still post endlessly about their candidates!)!. Mitchell told us some in the FBI were focusing on suspects from the Eugene area, but no person here has ever looked into that.
So there it is.
Subscribe to the book/author of your choice. God knows there are a ton of them! Or, in the end you may form your own opinions and write your own book, like so many of the self-professed experts here who Remote View only to proclaim their superiority, being the final word on Cooper Shadows and Dust - :)
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"I don't have a grudge against your airlines, Miss, I just have a grudge," is what DB Cooper reportedly said.
Now, what does it mean? Hmmm. Did he hijack 305 because he had a grudge? Yes, you could make that argument. Was he a gentleman because he used the word, "Miss?"
And so it goes.
All we really know and can agree on is Georger's nickname, "Grumpy."
As for the grudge quote, I did include it in the book, but I refrained from giving it a definitive assessment. I'm not sure what anyone thinks it means, or its specific value in determining DBC's psychological state. I believe it gets put into the general collection of sayings, attitudes, gestures, etc that make up the general persona of DB Cooper, along with nicotine-stained fingers, looking like a businessman, and generally acting like a gentleman although he got a bit giddy when the money showed up. But cool and competent while hijacking an airliner.
As Waugh told me, "It looked like a SOG operation. Well-planned and well-executed."
Also, Cooper's actions can be compared with the copycats. His behavior stands out as much more sophisticated. Plus he had sustained, deliberate interactions with the flight attendants, and kept himself veiled from 36 passengers for over two hours. Impressive crowd control, imho.
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What is the pyschological profile of DB Cooper? I mean, a middle aged dude jumping out of an airplane into the wilderness is extreme....
Well, KOGger, it begs the question of what makes something extreme. For instance, Three-Seven-Seven still jumps out of airplanes and he is WELL past his mid-forties, although I believe I am a year older than he.
As for "wilderness," the prime LZ was mostly rolling hills and farmlands, although there were and still are rugged, forested hillsides around the headwaters of the Lewis River and Merwin Lake area.
As for jumping at night, SOG guys did it because it was the best time to fly when folks on the ground are trying to shoot at ya. Regarding the rain, again paraphrasing 377, it ain't raining under a deployed canopy. Besides, it's the PNW, what else did you expect....
See how this goes? How do you want to spin the analysis???
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What is the pyschological profile of DB Cooper? I mean, a middle aged dude jumping out of an airplane into the wilderness is extreme....
Well, KOGger, it begs the question of what makes something extreme. For instance, Three-Seven-Seven still jumps out of airplanes and he is WELL past his mid-forties, although I believe I am a year older than he.
As for "wilderness," the prime LZ was mostly rolling hills and farmlands, although there were and still are rugged, forested hillsides around the headwaters of the Lewis River and Merwin Lake area.
As for jumping at night, SOG guys did it because it was the best time to fly when folks on the ground are trying to shoot at ya. Regarding the rain, again paraphrasing 377, it ain't raining under a deployed canopy. Besides, it's the PNW, what else did you expect....
See how this goes? How do you want to spin the analysis???
- NOT WORTH REPLYING TO -
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Georger, if you had read and remembered ALL of my posts at the DZ over the years, you would know these details of my relationship with Ms. Farnsworth. And 377's....
I am NOT as EXCELLENT AS YOU! which is the matter at issue you make?
One point worth considering but being avoided here is just how far does you book go in conveying important information about the DB Cooper case, which could lead to a resolution of the matter?
Or, is your book intended as a "Tell-All" in the Social Media vortex you in part are responsiblefor?
It seems every Tom, Dick, and Harry, and Blevins and Smith (Mary Sue and Betty Jane) has a "tell-all" to share with the Cooper world. All based on years of personal research of course! What makes your "tell-all" better or more significant than the last guy's, or the next guy's, or the one after that?
What would an ordinary Cooper researcher or fan need your book for beyond recreational activity?
Have you discovered anything NEW about those suspects at Eugene yet? Or were WSHM., Mitchell, etal just wasting time on journalists like you, giving you facts to work with and then nothing?
;)
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Grumps, you're a hard man to keep happy.
True, you make clear all the aspects of investigation that I, or others, have yet to grapple with fully. But what do you think of my book? Your contributions to the understanding of the money find makes that section of DB Cooper and the FBI singular in the Cooper firmament, wouldn't you agree?
Along those lines, who else writing about Norjak has interviewed as many principles in the case as I have?
Further, who else has teased apart the parachute kerfluffle to give us some clarity about Cossey, Hayden and Ckret's pronouncements? It took me a damn month to write that chapter!
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Greetings Everyone -
I've done some remote viewing on the death of Earl Cossey. The information that came forward suggests that his murder was not connected to the DB Cooper case.
I have emailed some researchers with the details of what I viewed, and if you didn't receive the email and would like to know more please get in touch with me via usual means. It's of a personal nature and not appropriate for an Internet site such as this forum.
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Crazy Central
In case anyone is missing the zaniness of Jo Weber, Galen has encountered a lassie that has Jo beat, hands down. Nanette Barto is a handwriting analyst in LA and has linked DB Cooper with the Zodiac Killer, the Jon Benet Ramsey murder, JFK's assassination and the Black Dahlia murder.
Take that, Duane, no "Y," no "w."
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Crazy Central
In case anyone is missing the zaniness of Jo Weber, Galen has encountered a lassie that has Jo beat, hands down. Nanette Barto is a handwriting analyst in LA and has linked DB Cooper with the Zodiac Killer, the Jon Benet Ramsey murder, JFK's assassination and the Black Dahlia murder.
Take that, Duane, no "Y," no "w."
Bruce,
Just think happy thoughts and get a good nights sleep. The world will look better tomorrow.
You must be the only one on Shutter's site who misses the last few years of the DZ thread. And for God's sake, please DO NOT give any links to wherever it is that Cook finds such people.
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Crazy Central
In case anyone is missing the zaniness of Jo Weber, Galen has encountered a lassie that has Jo beat, hands down. Nanette Barto is a handwriting analyst in LA and has linked DB Cooper with the Zodiac Killer, the Jon Benet Ramsey murder, JFK's assassination and the Black Dahlia murder.
Take that, Duane, no "Y," no "w."
Bruce,
Just think happy thoughts and get a good nights sleep. The world will look better tomorrow.
You must be the only one on Shutter's site who misses the last few years of the DZ thread. And for God's sake, please DO NOT give any links to wherever it is that Cook finds such people.
+1 ;)
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Notice:
I did not post any links. I ain't that crazy.
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Does anybody have contact information for "Sluggo"? WW is proving to be as elusive as another fellow we are looking for. :) Thanks.
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Sluggo has responded to my 2-3 emails over the past few years, but it takes a while. I'll email you what I have.
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Hi. I'm new here. Just learning the basics here from you guys who are evidently far along in your research. My first interest in the subject stems from unsolved mysteries, watched as a kid. Googling around, not too many sites come up with basic objective information/overview.
Anyway, looking at the dbcooperletters.com site - are the letters considered to be legitimate/authentic?
Still combing through the forum, so, sorry if this has been discussed.
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Hello, and welcome to the forum. I'm trying to keep the topics to a minimum. it looks like it will work here..
Nobody has proven the letters to be from the hijacker, it's hard to say if they came from him. I always thought he would sign them Dan Cooper vs DB Cooper...
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Hi. I'm new here. Just learning the basics here from you guys who are evidently far along in your research. My first interest in the subject stems from unsolved mysteries, watched as a kid. Googling around, not too many sites come up with basic objective information/overview.
Anyway, looking at the dbcooperletters.com site - are the letters considered to be legitimate/authentic?
Still combing through the forum, so, sorry if this has been discussed.
Hi & welcome. My view is about the same as Shutters. Others (like Cook for example) seem to be convinced the Letters are real. The Seattle Office of the FBI has to my knowledge never released any public statement concerning the letters. Whether the letters are real or not has it lead to any concrete suspects the FBI looked into, or a new lead of any kind? ??? :)
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Greetings Newbie!
Welcome. Here are some tips on the letters. I have written extensively on them, and have a full chapter on them in my book at Amazon - ten bucks: DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking.
You can also go to the Mountain News. I have about 60 pieces on DB C posted there. Google Mountain News and DB Cooper.
I don't think the letters are from the skyjacker, but others think so, including the enigmatic "Al DI." Who his guy is a mystery, and could be an FBI agent playing games or trying to ferret information out of his agency.
The letters certainly reveal other kinds of mysteries that tell us about the nature and scope of the investigation. The letters are generally lumped into two categories. One are the pithy, haiku-like letters, and these are the ones that attract the most attention. They are the most enticing and sublime. All the other letters are from folks who are easy to dismiss. They are egotistical and poorly written.
The last of the Core Four was sent to the Oregonian in the week after the skyjacking. It was a paste-up job using letters from the June and July 1970 Playboy. Al Di has "decoded" them. Interesting analysis. This fourth letter was not published by the Oregonian, but was sent to them, who forwarded it to the FBI in Seattle. Astonishingly, the letter was posted the next day in the Billings Gazette, in Montana, presumably to smoke out any accomplices Paul Cini might have had in the area, as Cini's skyjacking touched down in Great Falls on November 11, 1971.
This was before fax machines and the such, so the FBI had to photograph the letter and then courier it by plane down to Billings. All in less than 24-hours, too, so the FBI clearly took this letter seriously, at least as a ruse for any Cini compatriots.
Many in the FBI consider Paul Cini as the first skyjacker (two weeks before Cooper's) who was ready to parachute away, but I consider Dan Cooper to be the originator of the classic 727 getaway, as Cini was using a DC-8 and it only had a side hatch, not an aft stairway.
I have also written extensively on these "copy cats," and discuss if there might have been a link between them.
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Thanks, guys. That's about what I thought. The "core four" letters seem different in attitude from db's attitude on the plane, somehow. I will download your book, Bruce.
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Thanks, K.
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Bruce wrote" This was before fax machines and the such, so the FBI had to photograph the letter and then courier it by plane down to Billings. All in less than 24-hours, too, so the FBI clearly took this letter seriously, at least as a ruse for any Cini compatriots."
Not so Bruce. Fax machines have been around a LONG time. From Wikipedia "Scottish inventor Alexander Bain worked on chemical mechanical fax type devices and in 1846 was able to reproduce graphic signs in laboratory experiments. He received the first fax patent in 1843. Frederick Bakewell made several improvements on Bain's design and demonstrated a telefax machine."
Law enforcement agencies used vacuum tube fax machines to send images over phone lines routinely in the 1950s and early 60s.
From
comp.dcom.telecom:
"Western Union public fax services,Western Union ran several advertisments in the New York Times for its
public "wirefax"/"telefax" service. I found ads for 1959-1962.
The maximum size of a document was 8.5" x 11", and the transmitted
portion was roughly 1" shorter on all sides (7.5" x 10").
Transmission took five minutes.
The service was offered in New York City, Washington DC, Chicago, Los
Angeles, and San Francisco. In the time span I checked no additional
cities were added.
The material had to be taken to a Western Union office. WU would pick
it up at an additional charge for their messenger. It would be
delivered by Western Union messenger without charge to any place
within the city limits of the destination city.
The first 4" vertically between NYC and Chicago cost $2.40 and 40
cents for each additional inch. plus Federal tax. The first 4"
between NYC and San Francisco cost $4.00 and 65 cents for each
additional inch plus Federal Tax.
So, a full page letter (with margins) to Chicago would cost about
$3.60 per page, to San Francisco would cost about $5.95 per page, both
plus Federal Tax (10%?), in 1960 dollars, plus the expense of delivery
to the central WU office. By today's dollars that seems quite
pricey."
377
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Sluggo has responded to my 2-3 emails over the past few years, but it takes a while. I'll email you what I have.
Sure wish we could entice Sluggo to join the forum. Great guy. Deep thinker. Doesn't drink the Kool Aid, but more importantly, when Sluggo hears hoofbeats he thinks horses not unicorns or Duane Weber.
377
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Sluggo has responded to my 2-3 emails over the past few years, but it takes a while. I'll email you what I have.
Sure wish we could entice Sluggo to join the forum. Great guy. Deep thinker. Doesn't drink the Kool Aid, but more importantly, when Sluggo hears hoofbeats he thinks horses not unicorns or Duane Weber.
377
Great! 8)
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Has anyone had contact with Sluggo in the last couple years?
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Yet once again, I stand corrected.
Thanks, Three-Seven-Seven.
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Bruce wrote" This was before fax machines and the such, so the FBI had to photograph the letter and then courier it by plane down to Billings. All in less than 24-hours, too, so the FBI clearly took this letter seriously, at least as a ruse for any Cini compatriots."
Not so Bruce. Fax machines have been around a LONG time. From Wikipedia "Scottish inventor Alexander Bain worked on chemical mechanical fax type devices and in 1846 was able to reproduce graphic signs in laboratory experiments. He received the first fax patent in 1843. Frederick Bakewell made several improvements on Bain's design and demonstrated a telefax machine."
Law enforcement agencies used vacuum tube fax machines to send images over phone lines routinely in the 1950s and early 60s.
From
comp.dcom.telecom:
"Western Union public fax services,Western Union ran several advertisments in the New York Times for its
public "wirefax"/"telefax" service. I found ads for 1959-1962.
The maximum size of a document was 8.5" x 11", and the transmitted
portion was roughly 1" shorter on all sides (7.5" x 10").
Transmission took five minutes.
The service was offered in New York City, Washington DC, Chicago, Los
Angeles, and San Francisco. In the time span I checked no additional
cities were added.
The material had to be taken to a Western Union office. WU would pick
it up at an additional charge for their messenger. It would be
delivered by Western Union messenger without charge to any place
within the city limits of the destination city.
The first 4" vertically between NYC and Chicago cost $2.40 and 40
cents for each additional inch. plus Federal tax. The first 4"
between NYC and San Francisco cost $4.00 and 65 cents for each
additional inch plus Federal Tax.
So, a full page letter (with margins) to Chicago would cost about
$3.60 per page, to San Francisco would cost about $5.95 per page, both
plus Federal Tax (10%?), in 1960 dollars, plus the expense of delivery
to the central WU office. By today's dollars that seems quite
pricey."
377
+1 :)
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I see 377 got his fax correct ;D :D ;)
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Ha, ha, Shut...but you're correct.
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I see 377 got his fax correct ;D :D ;)
[quote author=Shutter link=topic=18.msg6679#msg66
Good one Shutter. 😀
Back in the day (1960s) I got two Western Union surplus Desk Fax machines for $5 each. A few minor repairs got them working. You'd put the original on a rotating drum where it was point scanned by a photocell. The receiving unit used electrically sensitive paper which could be etched by a spark. Connect them over a phone line and watch the fun as the receiving unit synched up its drum to match the sending unit. Then pure magic followed. Under a hissing and spitting blue electric arc, a negative of the original image would be "printed". Lots of acrid smoke too. Quite a show for $10.
377
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Is this it?
(http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/deskfax/viewL.jpg)
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You bet, that's it exactly Shutter. Fairly small unit. Really acrid smell as the sputtering spark etched an image in the rotating drum. Smoke too. You felt like something real was happening, none of this sanitary dry xerography stuff. Smoke, flames, action. YES! And vacuum tubes too. Sweet little machines.
So does anybody besides me think Brian's parents could have planted the bills for him to "find"? I admit it's a far out theory but it's not impossible. I keep thinking about the incredible coincidence of Brian digging in the exact right spot.
I wish there was a way to confirm or debunk the claims that other kids found bills nearby while fishing.
I am not convinced there was a debris field of shredded currency. Has anyone found proof that there was?
377
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That's a tough sell. the money has so many problems. if it was planted what would be the reasoning?
I don't know much about the father, but he looks like he's been around the block a time or two...
I'm not sold on a debris field either. so many unanswered questions and mystery surrounding the money. I don't know if a conclusion will be found unless Cooper is found?
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I don't know if a conclusion will be found unless Cooper is found?
In all likelihood, we could find out who Cooper was and still have no idea how/why/when the money came to Tina Bar.
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I wish there was a way to confirm or debunk the claims that other kids found bills nearby while fishing.
I am not convinced there was a debris field of shredded currency. Has anyone found proof that there was?
377
What? You don't believe the FBI? I'm shocked!
Oh, right, you want proof...hmmmmmmmm....
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That's a tough sell. the money has so many problems. if it was planted what would be the reasoning?
I don't know much about the father, but he looks like he's been around the block a time or two...
I'm not sold on a debris field either. so many unanswered questions and mystery surrounding the money.
Let's say that Brian's parents found Coopers body and loot. Both seriously degraded. They conceal the body and take the money. They wonder, can we spend it? Will someone else claim it? If we come forward they will ask where we found it and whether there was a body. Messy indeed.
They decide on a test. Young Brian will innocently "find" a portion of the loot far from the actual location where they found it. They will then see whether they can keep it and whether it's negotiable or otherwise valuable.
377
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Let's say that Brian's parents found Coopers body and loot. Both seriously degraded. They conceal the body and take the money. They wonder, can we spend it? Will someone else claim it? If we come forward they will ask where we found it and whether there was a body. Messy indeed.
They decide on a test. Young Brian will innocently "find" a portion of the loot far from the actual location where they found it. They will then see whether they can keep it and whether it's negotiable or otherwise valuable.
377
Whew, that's a stretch. But possible!
But you met Brian. Whatcha think? The guy I met seemed like a straight shooter and not part of a scam.
Why not tell the world that you found the money and body and get to appear in a million TV shows, docs, etc???
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That's a tough sell. the money has so many problems. if it was planted what would be the reasoning?
I don't know much about the father, but he looks like he's been around the block a time or two...
I'm not sold on a debris field either. so many unanswered questions and mystery surrounding the money.
Let's say that Brian's parents found Coopers body and loot. Both seriously degraded. They conceal the body and take the money. They wonder, can we spend it? Will someone else claim it? If we come forward they will ask where we found it and whether there was a body. Messy indeed.
They decide on a test. Young Brian will innocently "find" a portion of the loot far from the actual location where they found it. They will then see whether they can keep it and whether it's negotiable or otherwise valuable.
377
That is a possibility. It's maddening to think that there could be people out there that could lead authorities to the body and solve the case. It's unlikely, but possible.
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I think you guys have been watching WAY too much TV.....
...but if my remote viewing was up to snuff, I could put this issue to rest!
Just sayin'...
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..but if my remote viewing was up to snuff, I could put this issue to rest!
Perhaps we could jump in a Delorean and go back in time... 8)
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Road Trip!!!
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Time circuits have been set..... :o
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This case really seems to polarize people who research it. Researchers divide into either "he lived" or "he died" camps. Or, "he had" or "did not have" parachute training. What other questions about this case polarize people?
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This case really seems to polarize people who research it. Researchers divide into either "he lived" or "he died" camps. Or, "he had" or "did not have" parachute training. What other questions about this case polarize people?
I am polarised around him not being Chinese! ? :)
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This case really seems to polarize people who research it. Researchers divide into either "he lived" or "he died" camps. Or, "he had" or "did not have" parachute training. What other questions about this case polarize people?
I am polarised around him not being Chinese! ? :)
Again, I find myself agreeing with georger because they didn't find a sample of Mongolian beef on his tie! ;D
Another way people polarize is suspects. They seem to gravitate towards one, or fervently deny all of them. I have to admit, I'm as polarized as anybody here. I think the Cooper suspect probably died from the jump. I think he didn't have much skydiving experience or aviation knowledge. I have a favorite suspect and mostly dismiss the others.
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This case really seems to polarize people who research it. Researchers divide into either "he lived" or "he died" camps. Or, "he had" or "did not have" parachute training. What other questions about this case polarize people?
I am polarised around him not being Chinese! ? :)
Again, I find myself agreeing with georger because they didn't find a sample of Mongolian beef on his tie! ;D
Another way people polarize is suspects. They seem to gravitate towards one, or fervently deny all of them. I have to admit, I'm as polarized as anybody here. I think the Cooper suspect probably died from the jump. I think he didn't have much skydiving experience or aviation knowledge. I have a favorite suspect and mostly dismiss the others.
I must say that I am as polarized as you and Georger. But I don't even have a suspect, favorite or otherwise. And I'm not going to speculate. I'm just simply polarized.
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Can anyone be Bi-Polarized ;D :D ;) :)
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Good one, Shut.
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Let's say that Brian's parents found Coopers body and loot. Both seriously degraded. They conceal the body and take the money. They wonder, can we spend it? Will someone else claim it? If we come forward they will ask where we found it and whether there was a body. Messy indeed.
They decide on a test. Young Brian will innocently "find" a portion of the loot far from the actual location where they found it. They will then see whether they can keep it and whether it's negotiable or otherwise valuable.
377
Whew, that's a stretch. But possible!
But you met Brian. Whatcha think? The guy I met seemed like a straight shooter and not part of a scam.
Why not tell the world that you found the money and body and get to appear in a million TV shows, docs, etc???
Brian wasn't a liar. He didn't have to be. He was just a young kid who dug in a sandbar to help his parents prepare a campfire site. What I am wondering (and its just a guess) is whether his parents could have subtly led him to the site where THEY had buried the money. "Brian honey, lets build a campfire right here, can you clear the sand a little bit?"
377
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Let's say that Brian's parents found Coopers body and loot. Both seriously degraded. They conceal the body and take the money. They wonder, can we spend it? Will someone else claim it? If we come forward they will ask where we found it and whether there was a body. Messy indeed.
They decide on a test. Young Brian will innocently "find" a portion of the loot far from the actual location where they found it. They will then see whether they can keep it and whether it's negotiable or otherwise valuable.
377
Whew, that's a stretch. But possible!
But you met Brian. Whatcha think? The guy I met seemed like a straight shooter and not part of a scam.
Why not tell the world that you found the money and body and get to appear in a million TV shows, docs, etc???
Brian wasn't a liar. He didn't have to be. He was just a young kid who dug in a sandbar to help his parents prepare a campfire site. What I am wondering (and its just a guess) is whether his parents could have subtly led him to the site where THEY had buried the money. "Brian honey, lets build a campfire right here, can you clear the sand a little bit?"
377
One of the things that hold me back on this idea is that if the Ingrams found Cooper's body or items involved in the case (briefcase bomb, parachute, etc.), they could easily have capitalized on that find. Can you imagine what a network or media outlet would pay for the exclusive on that? They could have parlayed that find into hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly. It doesn't make any sense for them to remain silent. There would be no benefit for them.
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Let's say that Brian's parents found Coopers body and loot. Both seriously degraded. They conceal the body and take the money. They wonder, can we spend it? Will someone else claim it? If we come forward they will ask where we found it and whether there was a body. Messy indeed.
They decide on a test. Young Brian will innocently "find" a portion of the loot far from the actual location where they found it. They will then see whether they can keep it and whether it's negotiable or otherwise valuable.
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Whew, that's a stretch. But possible!
But you met Brian. Whatcha think? The guy I met seemed like a straight shooter and not part of a scam.
Why not tell the world that you found the money and body and get to appear in a million TV shows, docs, etc???
Brian wasn't a liar. He didn't have to be. He was just a young kid who dug in a sandbar to help his parents prepare a campfire site. What I am wondering (and its just a guess) is whether his parents could have subtly led him to the site where THEY had buried the money. "Brian honey, lets build a campfire right here, can you clear the sand a little bit?"
377
One of the things that hold me back on this idea is that if the Ingrams found Cooper's body or items involved in the case (briefcase bomb, parachute, etc.), they could easily have capitalized on that find. Can you imagine what a network or media outlet would pay for the exclusive on that? They could have parlayed that find into hundreds of thousands of dollars, possibly. It doesn't make any sense for them to remain silent. There would be no benefit for them.
A conspiracy theory is always lurking.
It is lucky Brian dig right on the spot where money was under the sand. One in 100 billion shot I would say.
Brian was probably not in on any plot but just a unknowing tool in a plot, if there was a plot or more we havent been told. The Ingram tale is not Crystal clear! In fact, they witheld bills (that is in the record) until one of the Ingrams ratted Harold and Pat out. What they all wanted was a reward. The FBI got all huffy about that! End result was a lawsuit and the FBI losing most of the money/evidence! That's the screwed up world we live in ... nothing is Crystal Ingram clear!
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nothing is Crystal Ingram clear!
+1 8)
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nothing is Crystal Ingram clear!
+1 8)
Chrystal Ingram gave a more cogent story vs. Harold's nervous narrative about campfires and miracles: Crystal simply said: The kids were playing in the sand poking around as kids do! She claimed that her daughter Denise and Brian were literally side by side poking around in the sand. The whole group had been strolling down the beach, talking. After some distance walking-strolling with the kids, they took a break from walking. The kids went to playing in the sand in the area where they had stopped, Pat and Crystal went ahead a short distance talking about personal matters (which included Crystal's impending divorce from Harold's brother ...), and Harold was standing by himself looking around a short distance from where the kids were now playing in the sand. And it was Brian who called out something like: "Come look at this". The women turned around and looked back at the kids, Harold walked over to where the kids were now digging, and it was Harold who yelled out something like: 'Hey! Come look at this. It's money!'.
Harold's story was a rambling nervous narrative that involved 'campfire'! His wife Pat stood by stone silent, sullen, stern look on her face, ... wanting a reward for the family and she made that very clear!
I dont know whose story is correct. Crystal's story (to me) is the more ordinary and believable. At length Crystal said 'any reward should include her daughter 'Denise' because she said 'Denise and Brian were there together and made the discovery jointly'. Pat and Harold got an attorney. Crystal and Denise were left out completely...
And of course Crystal ratted Pat and Harold out to Himmelsbach for not turning in all of the bills. It was Crystal who then delivered more bills to Himmeslbach ... in behalf of Pat and Harold (the guy with the nervous rambling narrative)!
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I just find it more probable that Brian was subtly led to the money by someone who knew it was there than he found it by chance.
I'm looking at the odds of a random find and find it highly improbable, but of course not impossible.
Might Harold's nervous rambling have been an indication that he planted it? Why be nervous about an innocent kid's random find?
Might some of the money initially withheld from the FBI have never been at Tina Bar?
I have one of the twenty dollar bills that Brian found. I look at it often wondering how in the hell it got to Tina Bar. I just can't figure it out.
The only reason I even mention the wildly speculative theory about Brian being led to the find by someone in the know is that it could explain a highly improbable find and also explain how the money got to Tina Bar. A two fer.
377
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I don't thinks it's odd they decided to have a campfire on the beach, but with conflicting stories, and both making sense. which one is the truth, or does it really matter?
The question would be why do we have multiple stories?
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Indeed, why?
I'm not glib here, but the multiple stories form the Ingram clan may reveal more about the power of big cases and famous crimes to distort people's thinking. The Vortex seems to be a real phenomena, and not just a way to explain Jo Weber.
As for multiple stories at T-Bar, look at the feds and the Fazios - they don't agree on anything. Himms, McPheters, Dorwin, Al Fazio - they all tell wildly divergent stories, and we have no physical evidence to back up any of them! How does THAT happen?
Then add in Galen and his teenage fishermen, and this thing just keeps growing. There seems to be no end to it.
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I have one of the twenty dollar bills that Brian found. I look at it often wondering how in the hell it got to Tina Bar. I just can't figure it out.
377
Three-Seven-Seven, have you tried talking to the money yet? Close your eyes and let it tell you what the story is. Too woo-woo? Drink more wine, then.....then try it.
Seriously. I'd be curious to see and hear what comes up for you.
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Three-Seven-Seven, have you tried talking to the money yet?
I think I spotted 377 talking to one of the Cooper bills. ;D :D ;)
(http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/377_zpslofhjice.gif)
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I don't thinks it's odd they decided to have a campfire on the beach, but with conflicting stories, and both making sense. which one is the truth, or does it really matter?
The question would be why do we have multiple stories?
Harold gave one story to the FBI. Pat sat by sullen not commenting. What story (stories) did Harold or Pat give others privately, before the FBI and news conference fame set in? Nobody has checked that out. We know that Pat, Harold, and Crystal (at minimum) gave accounts of the finding to a number of people prior to the FBI even being called. Crystal called several radio stations in order to enhance her chances at a reward after the meeting with Himmelsbach. Did Pat also? These people needed money, not a bunch of DB Cooper games!
Then Crystal surfaces and gives her own story, not only to the FBI but to news people! That is documented. Why news people ..... there's the rub: because THEY ALL WANTED A REWARD once they realised they were not going to get the money back. Did they think they were loaning it to the FBI? :) tisk tisk :) One minute their kids are pulling out a wad of free $20 twenties and are headed to redeem them at a bank .. the next minute they are having to turn it all over to scowling guys in suits with guns with no promise of even a reward ... in some famous piece of Unreality called the DB Cooper Hijacking case! WTF! How unfair and crazy does it get for the hourly blue collar worker! ???
They wanted money! They needed money! Either the bills back OR a healthy reward. Denied both that's where the trouble began. They lobbied hard for a REWARD with anyone who would listen but no reward was forthcoming, so to a lawyer they go, and five times around the Horn they finally arrive in Paradise! Brian still lives in Paradise!
These are common people, with common concerns. No Nobel prizes or college degrees, not even a free Carnegie Make a Speech course at night school! Just working folks out on a walk on a free beach (when you can't afford a movie or the gas to go to Seattle!).
Does this bring the Ingrams more into focus? And their motives and their stories. One story for Harold. Another story for Crystal who also happens to be in the process of divorcing Harold's brother! She needs money! The Ingrams need MONEY! So ............. off to a lawyer they go ................ to get money for all! Never mind that it will take five lifetimes and 20 bankruptcies and evictions to get it !!!
Folks this aint rocket science!
Jack n Jill went up the hill to fetch a pale of water ... Jack fell down and broke his crown .... and .... you can probably forget about complicated conspiracies and back stories involving drugs and pimps and some drug dealer the Ingrams used who knew DB Cooper who also was on drugs traveling in the same circle, and some reverse-sting to send the FBI off in some improbable direction (discovery of my loot!) and yada yada yada yada ... :D The Ingrams are common folks and a divided family with lots of troubles at the time who are badly in need of infusion of cash. The last thing they need is more confusion, calamity, and less money with more attention directed their way! Harold has an outstanding warrant waiting in (New Mexico?) he has not settled. Yada yada yada yada.
If this was a conspiracy it was the screwiest conspiracy since Laural and Hardy bought Goslow Maine for $2.00 dollars only to inherit outstanding liens totaling $4 million dollars! :D
Only in America could this happen! ;)
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As much of a tale in bureaucratic incompetence as anything.
If the bills had just been bills not involved in any crime, it's simple. You take them to the bank, the bank figures out how many bills there are. The Ingraham families (either, both or whatever) deposit them. The bank sends the bills to be destroyed and new bills are created to replace them.
If they are evidence, they could take them to the bank, the bank figures out how many bills there are. The Ingraham families (either, both or whatever) deposit them. Then, instead of sending the bills to be destroyed the FBI takes them as evidence, but new bills are created to replace them. If the case ends, the FBI sends them to be destroyed. Everybody's happy, right?
But, no! Lawsuits and family squabbling instead. Just a waste of time and money!!
On a related point, I'm not sure why the Ingrahams were entitled to the bills at all. I thought the finder of lost property has more rights to it than anyone else in the world EXCEPT THE RIGHTFUL OWNER. It would seem to me Seafirst (or more likely, Seafirst's insurance company) would be entitled to the bills.
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It's my understanding the insurance company did get a large amount of the find. the FBI lost in this case getting the least amount....
Thinking about it, I doubt a bank would accept them. they would probably tell you to send them to the Treasury Department...
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Three-Seven-Seven, have you tried talking to the money yet?
I think I spotted 377 talking to one of the Cooper bills. ;D :D ;)
(http://i1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee380/dave767/377_zpslofhjice.gif)
Nice pic shutter!!
I have indeed talked to my twenty but it stubbornly refuses to engage in a dialogue. I gave it clean dry home but no gratitude, no cooperation.
You know those twenties, street bills, never did have the class of a hundred.
377
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It's my understanding the insurance company did get a large amount of the find. the FBI lost in this case getting the least amount....
Thinking about it, I doubt a bank would accept them. they would probably tell you to send them to the Treasury Department...
Actually I think its the insurance company, first. The FBI held on to the bills under the belief they were evidence and I actually agree with that concept but some Judge had a different logic. That is way beyond my pay grade - I would have had the whole Justice Dept up in arms over that and appealed to the Supreme Court if necessary in defense of the FBI's rights to hold on to important EVIDENCE! But it didnt go their way and they didnt appeal, evidently.
As for the Ingrams they lucked out imho.
Why didnt the Ingrams just go to a bank ? Beats me. Would the bank have run a few serial numbers and found out it was Cooper money? We will never know. The story is Harold talked to some of his mates at work and one of them suggested contact LE? He called the Sherriff's office and they told him to call the FBI! I dont know if this story is true ... ?
Why didnt the Ingrams write a book about it!?
So many questions - so little time! :o ;) ;)
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Did the Fazio's ever object to the Ingram's wanting the money. Like Mark said, it was found on there property?
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Did the Fazio's ever object to the Ingram's wanting the money. Like Mark said, it was found on there property?
No, not that I am aware. Why would they? They are the finders. I think they were a little upset when the FBI showed up and closed off their road but once things settled down they joined the party, as it were, and they played a role in the excavation. Of course one question lurking at the time: were the Fazios hiding the money? Or did Fazio sand contain the money somewhere else on their property? I dont know if this was explored at all? I think the FBI came to the opinion that the Fazios were not culpable in any way. But Im no expert on any of this - its conjecture on my part!
Al Fazio said he thought the money had arrived with the last tide the week before being found? He thought it was a recent arrival ...
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I was just wondering what Fazio thought about the find. it was found on his property, I believe he would have had the rights to it. even with permission the Ingram's were supposed to be camping, and not treasure hunting...
But, then again...
common law has a fairly definitive "finders-keepers" bent to it.
That's true even when the finding is done on someone else's property, as long as the finder had permission to be there, courts have established.
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Did the Fazio's ever object to the Ingram's wanting the money. Like Mark said, it was found on there property?
No, not that I am aware. Why would they? They are the finders. I think they were a little upset when the FBI showed up and closed off their road but once things settled down they joined the party, as it were, and they played a role in the excavation. Of course one question lurking at the time: were the Fazios hiding the money? Or did Fazio sand contain the money somewhere else on their property? I dont know if this was explored at all? I think the FBI came to the opinion that the Fazios were not culpable in any way. But Im no expert on any of this - its conjecture on my part!
Al Fazio said he thought the money had arrived with the last tide the week before being found? He thought it was a recent arrival ...
And where did the sand come from that covered it? That sand was working its way downhill from somewhere.
Are you sure that the Fazio's owned the land to the water's edge, which changed hourly?
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Hmm, well, I'm sure there is an area considered public property on the shoreline. I think the money falls outside of that perimeter if it was found up in, or near the treeline? that puts it some 60+ feet away from average water levels?
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Did the Fazio's ever object to the Ingram's wanting the money. Like Mark said, it was found on there property?
No, not that I am aware. Why would they? They are the finders. I think they were a little upset when the FBI showed up and closed off their road but once things settled down they joined the party, as it were, and they played a role in the excavation. Of course one question lurking at the time: were the Fazios hiding the money? Or did Fazio sand contain the money somewhere else on their property? I dont know if this was explored at all? I think the FBI came to the opinion that the Fazios were not culpable in any way. But Im no expert on any of this - its conjecture on my part!
Al Fazio said he thought the money had arrived with the last tide the week before being found? He thought it was a recent arrival ...
And where did the sand come from that covered it? That sand was working its way downhill from somewhere.
Are you sure that the Fazio's owned the land to the water's edge, which changed hourly?
I have no idea here their land stopped. I think at the water's edge? Sand during high water also travels laterally.
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Did the Fazio's ever object to the Ingram's wanting the money. Like Mark said, it was found on there property?
No, not that I am aware. Why would they? They are the finders. I think they were a little upset when the FBI showed up and closed off their road but once things settled down they joined the party, as it were, and they played a role in the excavation. Of course one question lurking at the time: were the Fazios hiding the money? Or did Fazio sand contain the money somewhere else on their property? I dont know if this was explored at all? I think the FBI came to the opinion that the Fazios were not culpable in any way. But Im no expert on any of this - its conjecture on my part!
Al Fazio said he thought the money had arrived with the last tide the week before being found? He thought it was a recent arrival ...
And where did the sand come from that covered it? That sand was working its way downhill from somewhere.
Are you sure that the Fazio's owned the land to the water's edge, which changed hourly?
I have no idea here their land stopped. I think at the water's edge? Sand during high water also travels laterally.
Okay, to be more precise, the sand is always working its way downhill and downstream due to the natural forces of gravity and water. If the sand moves otherwise, it is due to "un-natural" forces of such things as dredges.
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Floods, and higher tides could bring sediments onto the beach as well....
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Floods, and higher tides could bring sediments onto the beach as well....
They can only bring them from upstream or from a higher water level to a lower water level.
The sand is always moving to a lower energy state, in this case a lower elevation above sea level. If the sand is moving to a higher energy state, something (such as a dredge or other human activity) has to add that additional energy to achieve a higher energy state.
Actually, the reason that water runs downhill is because it is going to a lower energy state. And in going downhill, water can lose energy by going through the electrical generating turbines of a dam, by eroding the landscape, or just dissipating energy as "heat" as it goes through a rapids in a river.
No physical process is 100 percent efficient. If that were true, we could have Perpetual Motion Machines. As Mother Nature operates today, they are simply not possible.
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Copy/Paste
Anglers called the state Department of Natural Resources complaining that the Fazios put a fence on public land.
A survey for the Fazios by Minister & Glaeser Surveying of Vancouver determined the family owns down to 4.385 feet Columbia River Datum.
Steven Ivey, aquatic land surveyor for the state Department of Natural Resources, said Tuesday he was asked to review the survey and found no flaws.
Columbia River Datum is the measuring stick used by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration to determine river height.
Ivey said the line of mean high tide is normally the boundary used to determine privately owned uplands and publicly owned beach.
The Columbia River is complicated due to the interplay of tidal influence and streamflow released out of Bonneville Dam, Ivey said.
Because dredge spoils are intermittently deposited at Tena Bar, the boundary is not determined at the vegetation line, he said.
"At the Fazios, it's complicated and site-specific,'' Ivey said.
The Columbia drops to 4.38 feet in July and mostly stays below that height until about Thanksgiving, according to tables compiled by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
Only the beach lower than 4.38 feet is public.
"These people would tell me it's public property,'' Fazio said. "Now, I know where the boundaries are. It's private. I feel like I've got a bullseye on back. If someone gets hurt, I'm liable.''
"We're asking people nicely to leave,'' he added. "They can go to Frenchmen's Bar or Caterpillar Island, which is owned by DNR. There's public land at Davis Bar, too.''
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Copy/Paste
Anglers called the state Department of Natural Resources complaining that the Fazios put a fence on public land.
A survey for the Fazios by Minister & Glaeser Surveying of Vancouver determined the family owns down to 4.385 feet Columbia River Datum.
Steven Ivey, aquatic land surveyor for the state Department of Natural Resources, said Tuesday he was asked to review the survey and found no flaws.
Columbia River Datum is the measuring stick used by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration to determine river height.
Ivey said the line of mean high tide is normally the boundary used to determine privately owned uplands and publicly owned beach.
The Columbia River is complicated due to the interplay of tidal influence and streamflow released out of Bonneville Dam, Ivey said.
Because dredge spoils are intermittently deposited at Tena Bar, the boundary is not determined at the vegetation line, he said.
"At the Fazios, it's complicated and site-specific,'' Ivey said.
The Columbia drops to 4.38 feet in July and mostly stays below that height until about Thanksgiving, according to tables compiled by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
Only the beach lower than 4.38 feet is public.
"These people would tell me it's public property,'' Fazio said. "Now, I know where the boundaries are. It's private. I feel like I've got a bullseye on back. If someone gets hurt, I'm liable.''
"We're asking people nicely to leave,'' he added. "They can go to Frenchmen's Bar or Caterpillar Island, which is owned by DNR. There's public land at Davis Bar, too.''
Fazio has a real point there, however in a situation like this defending it can be a total PITA and could be expensive if someone wished to push it .... hope there was no barbed wire or razor wire on his fence or glass on the ground! :-* :) :) :)
My family owned land along the DesMoines River once. It was a total pain to deal with jerks trespassing to get to the river. They would go up and break into the cabin ... the stone in that fireplace had been brought from Dakota where Uncle Burt was an engineer in the Mt Rushmore project ... people chipped large rose quartz stones out of our fireplace! It was endless. We finally closed the whole thing and burned the cabin. There are still initials etcx carved in the oak tress around there from when the family was young ... and the current new owner wont even let me go up there to the old cabin site!
Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?
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You always have someone who will ruin things for others. Paul mentioned something about a 20 foot rule. don't know if he was right or not?
The guy on the property you use to own sounds like a prick... :(
Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?
I believe Bruce jumped in the river from there..perhaps he can state something?
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You always have someone who will ruin things for others. Paul mentioned something about a 20 foot rule. don't know if he was right or not?
The guy on the property you use to own sounds like a prick... :(
Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?
I believe Bruce jumped in the river from there..perhaps he can state something?
The new owner of one of the farms doesnt have much money - he is petrified of getting sued and I cant half blame him for closing things off. Our family owned that land for generations and its still called _________________Section. His stance is "I own it now!" But his big concern is being sued and protecting his stock and his fences. He only owns a fraction of the two sections my family owned. The original two sections has been split into 27 pieces since 1966! It's unreal. The old stone fireplace still stands where the cabin was. We used to have 100+ people at that cabin for celebrations when I was growing up... we even had an old hermit living in it for two winters when I was a kid. The well was still good and he burned wood and coal in the winter. All of my cousins and friends and I used to spend time there camping and fishing etc ... it was a right of passage to do survival stints there growing up! In any event the guy doesn't want me and my grandkids there ... I could have bought all of the land over looking the river near the old cabin for $1.00 from my family in 1966! I wish I had now. My wife and I were miles away at college and we decidided we would never-ever use it! The taxes on it were nothing. I wish I had it today - live and learn.
Yes ask Bruce about swimming at Tina's Bar! Bruce may be one of the people who said the current was very strong right off Tina Bar. ?
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Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?
A strong current just off shore at Tina Bar would suggest that the money came down the channel between Caterpillar Island and the mainland.
The water coming down the channel would be slower than the main river current and when they contact each other at the downstream end of Caterpillar Island, the result would be clockwise vortices (as seen from above) which would drive the debris from the channel flow onto the beach.
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Post #1213 from Tina Bar thread on this forum by Bruce Smith....
As far as I know, I am the only Coop guy to go swimming at T-Bar, as it was 105 degrees when I was there. Water was delightful, but the current was amazingly strong. Scary, even. Very bizarre to be swimming and see a freighter go by. At the Frenchman's Bar County Park, thousands of folks go swimming in the Columbia, and the lifeguards patrol the swimming area on jet skis. Interesting.
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Its my understanding the current just off shore at the Fazio's is strong. Fit that into money deposit equations?
A strong current just off shore at Tina Bar would suggest that the money came down the channel between Caterpillar Island and the mainland.
The water coming down the channel would be slower than the main river current and when they contact each other at the downstream end of Caterpillar Island, the result would be clockwise vortices (as seen from above) which would drive the debris from the channel flow onto the beach.
Big smile! 8)
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Post #1213 from Tina Bar thread on this forum by Bruce Smith....
As far as I know, I am the only Coop guy to go swimming at T-Bar, as it was 105 degrees when I was there. Water was delightful, but the current was amazingly strong. Scary, even. Very bizarre to be swimming and see a freighter go by. At the Frenchman's Bar County Park, thousands of folks go swimming in the Columbia, and the lifeguards patrol the swimming area on jet skis. Interesting.
Thats the one I remember ...
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I believe it's possible they might have the butts, but keep in mind that they have lost other key items as well.
The flight data is nowhere to be found.
No pictures of the money in the bag.
No pics of the chutes.
They claim they don't know who made the flight path map.
Did anyone ever hear anything about what was found on the seat. they removed it?
Different stories surrounding the money find. (FBI & Ingram's)
They might be good at what they do in certain parts of the FBI, but filing seems to be an issue with them, or keeping tabs on things.
They turned over the case from Alcatraz to the Marshal's in the late 70's, but took 2 years to transfer all the files. then the bombshell of the Marshal finding the reports of a stolen car, and a raft on Angle Island buried in the files? the newspapers wrote for years that no crimes occurred the following day? did they cover it up so the prison would continue to be full proof, or was it an over site? the Cooper case is far from the only nightmare they have encountered....
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I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?
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I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?
I think the only note that Cooper actually wrote was the initial one stating that the airliner was being hijacked, etc., and that was written before he boarded the aircraft. If the stories are correct, he specifically asked for that note back after the flight attendant had shown it to the cockpit crew. The remaining notes were written by the flight attendants, including one who stayed in the cockpit most of the time and wrote down what she was getting from another flight attendant over the interphone.
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I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?
The clip on the tie can only go one way. It clips to the shirt behind it.
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He wrote notes? First I heard.
He had a hand-printed note that he gave to Florence, but whether he wrote it or not, leftie or righty, is not known. After that, he dictated all communications, as far as I know, or used the interphone to talk to the cockpit directly, such as when he told Rataczak to slow the plane down just prior to his jump.
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I believe it's possible they might have the butts, but keep in mind that they have lost other key items as well.
The flight data is nowhere to be found.
No pictures of the money in the bag.
No pics of the chutes.
They claim they don't know who made the flight path map.
Did anyone ever hear anything about what was found on the seat. they removed it?
Different stories surrounding the money find. (FBI & Ingram's)
They might be good at what they do in certain parts of the FBI, but filing seems to be an issue with them, or keeping tabs on things.
Yup.
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I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?
The clip on the tie can only go one way. It clips to the shirt behind it.
Which confuses me, as there's a picture of Lepsy on Ross's website showing a tie clip coming in from the right hand side, whereas the Cooper tie has the clasp coming in from the left-hand side.
http://www.michiganmysteries.com/#/lepsy/4581551701 (http://www.michiganmysteries.com/#/lepsy/4581551701)
http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-overview.html (http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-overview.html)
How a tie clip actually attaches to a shirt is something I've never really had to think about...
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He wrote notes? First I heard.
He had a hand-printed note that he gave to Florence, but whether he wrote it or not, leftie or righty, is not known. After that, he dictated all communications, as far as I know, or used the interphone to talk to the cockpit directly, such as when he told Rataczak to slow the plane down just prior to his jump.
I conflated the McCoy hijacking with Cooper's.
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I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?
The clip on the tie can only go one way. It clips to the shirt behind it.
Which confuses me, as there's a picture of Lepsy on Ross's website showing a tie clip coming in from the right hand side, whereas the Cooper tie has the clasp coming in from the left-hand side.
http://www.michiganmysteries.com/#/lepsy/4581551701 (http://www.michiganmysteries.com/#/lepsy/4581551701)
http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-overview.html (http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-overview.html)
How a tie clip actually attaches to a shirt is something I've never really had to think about...
As Vicki was pointing out, in the USA the shirt buttons are on the right hand side of the shirt and the button holes are on the left side. When buttoning the shirt, the buttons are pulled through the hole with the right hand. This means that the "tie clip", not the "tie tack", can only be inserted under the outer shirt side (the one with the button holes) if it is inserted from the right hand side.
There is no evidence who put the clip on the tie as shown in those photographs.
Could the picture of Lepsy be reversed or could he be wearing a British or Canadian shirt?
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I was wondering, other than the placement of the clip on the tie, what else shows us that Cooper was left-handed? He wrote notes, did Tina see which hand?
The clip on the tie can only go one way. It clips to the shirt behind it.
Which confuses me, as there's a picture of Lepsy on Ross's website showing a tie clip coming in from the right hand side, whereas the Cooper tie has the clasp coming in from the left-hand side.
http://www.michiganmysteries.com/#/lepsy/4581551701 (http://www.michiganmysteries.com/#/lepsy/4581551701)
http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-overview.html (http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-overview.html)
How a tie clip actually attaches to a shirt is something I've never really had to think about...
As Vicki was pointing out, in the USA the shirt buttons are on the right hand side of the shirt and the button holes are on the left side. When buttoning the shirt, the buttons are pulled through the hole with the right hand. This means that the "tie clip", not the "tie tack", can only be inserted under the outer shirt side (the one with the button holes) if it is inserted from the right hand side.
There is no evidence who put the clip on the tie as shown in those photographs.
Could the picture of Lepsy be reversed or could he be wearing a British or Canadian shirt?
The photos of Lepsy are not reversed. He appears to wear his tie clips on the right, except for the attached image, but it's not a good photo and is far from conclusive.
I think Vicki is spot on about clipping the tie under the shirt from the right side. That makes perfect sense. Another possibility is a person putting on the clip while facing the tie, like someone dressing someone or a person putting the clip on the tie while it's hanging in front of the dress shirt on a hanger.
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Carr states he took the clip off & on. I'm sure it has been taken off dozens of times and put back on either side...
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Carr states he took the clip off & on. I'm sure it has been taken off dozens of times and put back on either side...
From Kaye (http://www.citizensleuths.com/tie-clip.html):
It was observed that the tie clip found with the tie, left marks on the back of the tie once removed. There were very few of these marks indicating that the Fig. 3 Tie tack holes found on Coopers tie. Note permanent depression surrounding hole on right.Fig. 3 Tie tack holes found on Coopers tie. Note permanent depression surrounding hole on right.current tie clip was not removed and replaced very often. The permanent depression left in the tie, by the now absent tie tack, suggested that a single tie tack was present on the tie for an extended period of time.
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Does anyone know why someone would refer to Portland as Portland proper?
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Does anyone know why someone would refer to Portland as Portland proper?
Can you amplify on what you mean by that question?
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Does anyone know why someone would refer to Portland as Portland proper?
Can you amplify on what you mean by that question?
Stated that they had not reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity therof...
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Does anyone know why someone would refer to Portland as Portland proper?
Can you amplify on what you mean by that question?
Stated that they had not reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity therof...
Basically, they were just saying that they were not quite in Portland, but that they were very close.
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Eugene was important to "Mr.Cooper" because he was born there 15 November 1927.
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Eugene was important to "Mr.Cooper" because he was born there 15 November 1927.
Ok, well. some people are interested in the Eugene connection. perhaps you could respond with something of value to this?
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Mr.Cooper's birth name is Miller. Most of them being in the medical field (MD's).
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what about his "grudge"
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Which one are you speaking of ?
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Which one are you speaking of ?
Do you know what his grudge was about? he told Tina he didn't have a grudge against the airlines, he said he just had a grudge...
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I would be lying if i said i really knew, but i can only speculate it was because of the airline turning him down twice as poliot.
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There was a small mom & pop's burger/ice cream shop overlooking SeaTac, have not been there in many years and do not know if it still stands. He visited that stand many times getting to know the airport better.
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I would be lying if i said i really knew, but i can only speculate it was because of the airline turning him down twice as poliot.
According to his quote he didn't have a grudge against Northwest. what would be the reasons for not accepting him as a pilot?
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He battled with unknown seizures. Most likely epilepsy.
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He also had debilitating migraines. He would often ware dark sunglasses late into the evening hoping to prevent the migraines from developing. He went so far as to use experimental contact lenses.
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Sounds like the aviation industry did Mr. Miller a favor by not letting him fly commercially. Why did a guy with severe migraines and unknown seizures want to fly for the airlines? That sounds interesting.
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There was a small mom & pop's burger/ice cream shop overlooking SeaTac, have not been there in many years and do not know if it still stands. He visited that stand many times getting to know the airport better.
What would he need to know about SeaTac since he didn't leave the airliner? An airport diagram of SeaTac could readily be obtained elsewhere.
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There was a small mom & pop's burger/ice cream shop overlooking SeaTac, have not been there in many years and do not know if it still stands. He visited that stand many times getting to know the airport better.
What would he need to know about SeaTac since he didn't leave the airliner? An airport diagram of SeaTac could readily be obtained elsewhere.
I think the main question would be, where was he prior to Portland PDX?
I wonder how many 727's were at PDX during this period?
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Mr.Cooper's birth name is Miller. Most of them being in the medical field (MD's).
Could you give us your take on how the money ended up on Tena Bar and where his landing zone was? Is here any actual physical evidence to what you're saying, such as a souvenir from the skyjacking, like maybe one of the twenties? Can you give us details of your suspect, such and height, weight, hair and eye color?
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I agree 100% he had no business flying or even driving an automobile. My belief is after he was dismissed or discharged from Larson training base for those percise reasons, he slumped into a mindset of worthlessness. Then being turned down twice by a major airline really lit the fuse so to speak.
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Merwin dam area was his LZ. No, in all honesty i can not tell you why any of the money was found at the bar. At the time of the highjacking he would of been 5'11", Brown hair, Hazel eyes with his right eye having a very tiny black dot at bottom of pupil. His corrective contact lenses could of been custom tinted. I have no souvenirs other than an old suitcase that came into play after the highjacking.
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Merwin dam area was his LZ. No, in all honesty i can not tell you why any of the money was found at the bar. At the time of the highjacking he would of been 5'11", Brown hair, Hazel eyes with his right eye having a very tiny black dot at bottom of pupil. His corrective contact lenses could of been custom tinted. I have no souvenirs other than an old suitcase that came into play after the highjacking.
How did the old suitcase come into play? What happened to the ransom money?
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The money along with some other items were kept in this suitcase until it was retrieved. The "other items" were disposed of.
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Does anyone here have an altered opinion on Tina ? Do any of you think he had help on the plane ?
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Does anyone here have an altered opinion on Tina ? Do any of you think he had help on the plane ?
A member here thinks it's possible she was involved after the fact, if I'm correct? I don't believe he had any help, or it would be an inside job....
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You are correct, they did not know each other for a long period, but she did in fact play a significant role in the highjacking itself and years after. We were all amazed how fast the FBI excluded Tina in the highjacking.
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Does anyone here have an altered opinion on Tina ? Do any of you think he had help on the plane ?
My opinion is Tina Mucklow was a young lady caught in a difficult situation, and she preformed admirably. Later in her life, she joined a convent, because she loves the Lord and wanted to serve him. My understanding is she now counsels and helps people.
I have an issue with people projecting their own dysfunction on Ms. Mucklow. There are people who try to analyze her every move and paint her as a guilt ridden recluse. All her actions seem reasonable to me, and if I was being stalked my a bunch of weirdos, weirdos like the wife of the guy whose last name is the same as the name of high end gas grills, I'd keep a pretty low profile too. Just my two cents.
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I agree with that analysis. I also know the feeling of being watched and always looking over my shoulder every time i went somewhere, but that feeling has long passed. Tina serving our Lord is very honorable and more of us should do the same. Let's be very clear about one thing though, joining a convent was not by choice in the beginning, but more of a "safehouse" for her. Only after being there for a period did Tina realize this was her calling and a way to repent. The "High end gas grill" has me a bit baffled ?
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Does anyone here have an altered opinion on Tina ? Do any of you think he had help on the plane ?
Altered opinion of Tina in what way? That she deliberately helped Cooper out of sympathy of some kind?
It's easy to project on Tina when one doesn't know the facts of the interactions that occurred, in real time.
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Does anyone here have an altered opinion on Tina ? Do any of you think he had help on the plane ?
My opinion is Tina Mucklow was a young lady caught in a difficult situation, and she preformed admirably. Later in her life, she joined a convent, because she loves the Lord and wanted to serve him. My understanding is she now counsels and helps people.
I have an issue with people projecting their own dysfunction on Ms. Mucklow. There are people who try to analyze her every move and paint her as a guilt ridden recluse. All her actions seem reasonable to me, and if I was being stalked my a bunch of weirdos, weirdos like the wife of the guy whose last name is the same as the name of high end gas grills, I'd keep a pretty low profile too. Just my two cents.
Agree totally.
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The money along with some other items were kept in this suitcase until it was retrieved. The "other items" were disposed of.
Let's not beat around the bush: you appear to have to inside info. Care to divulge the nature of that?
You appear confident the LZ was Merwin Lake ?
8)
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Tina serving our Lord is very honorable and more of us should do the same. Let's be very clear about one thing though, joining a convent was not by choice in the beginning, but more of a "safehouse" for her. Only after being there for a period did Tina realize this was her calling and a way to repent.
Tina's superiors at the convent said that Tina "never really fit in" there. Also, Tina was quite religious before the hijacking. In fact, she is shown carrying a Bible in some of the pictures taken in the hours immediately after the hijacking. The other flight attendants said that Tina always carried a Bible with her on trips.
Tina didn't do anything related to the hijacking that would require "repentance".
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Of course Tina did not fit in at first. As i said Tina was looking for safe refuge and she, aswel as other's knew this would be a failsafe plan. Obviously Tina is not an evil person as some do make her out to be and bad decisions were made long before the actual highjacking. Innocent she is not, but young and persuaded she was.
Confident of his LZ ?..Absolutely positively.
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Confident of his LZ ?..Absolutely positively.
Is there any way you can back up the things you are saying? Do you have any evidence? Please understand our skepticism. There have been more than a dozen people before you that have fingered a family member or acquaintance as the Cooper suspect, who survived the jump and didn't keep some kind of memento. All of these people are absolutely positive that their person is the Cooper suspect, some even after the FBI dismissed them as suspects.
What are your intentions? Are you interested in proving your relative as the Cooper suspect? Are you writing a book? Are you looking for a way to approach the FBI with your information? This case attracts whack jobs so please understand why we are trying to vet you.
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I totally understand everyone's skepticism and in reality i have nor had realistic hopes of anyone believing me. That would be foolhardy of me to anticipate that. I am not writing a book, simply beyond my skill set and not enough time left. The suitcase is my only keepsake. A pair of gloves that was in the case was destroyed and their condition was grim at that time anyway. I understand the "false profits" in the Cooper world are looking or was looking for that 15 minutes of fame and obviously got it because we are talking about them. I have nothing to gain nor has that thought ever entered my mind. As i said when i first joined this forum, i have not and will not contact the FBI or another agency concerning the highjacking because no matter what the FBI said about the case being closed, we would be crazy to ever believe that ! This means if real people, place's or item's were to surface they would have to do their jobs and start investigating again. For that reason, to protect family members from unnecessary harassment we will only go so far.
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I totally understand everyone's skepticism and in reality i have nor had realistic hopes of anyone believing me. That would be foolhardy of me to anticipate that. I am not writing a book, simply beyond my skill set and not enough time left. The suitcase is my only keepsake. A pair of gloves that was in the case was destroyed and their condition was grim at that time anyway. I understand the "false profits" in the Cooper world are looking or was looking for that 15 minutes of fame and obviously got it because we are talking about them. I have nothing to gain nor has that thought ever entered my mind. As i said when i first joined this forum, i have not and will not contact the FBI or another agency concerning the highjacking because no matter what the FBI said about the case being closed, we would be crazy to ever believe that ! This means if real people, place's or item's were to surface they would have to do their jobs and start investigating again. For that reason, to protect family members from unnecessary harassment we will only go so far.
Unless you can produce one of the missing twenties, or the parachute, the FBI won't waste a second looking at your man. The FBI considers the case "open", but won't spend a nickel or a minute more investigating it.
Could you please post a photo of your suspect circa 1971? It would be interesting to compare it with the FBI composite sketches of the Cooper suspect.
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Could the picture of Lepsy be reversed or could he be wearing a British or Canadian shirt?
I've done a little digging and believe "buttons on the right" on a men's shirt is a world wide standard. I can't find any other countries that deviate from that norm.
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I will see about getting a photo of him posted. He is not "my suspect", but a family member. I would also like to add that we would all be nieve to think the FBI along with participants of the highjacking (those left) are not monitoring this and other forums. Including an individual we spoke of in above conversations.
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I have been trying unsuccessfully to load a photo. Keeps saying "Image to large". So i tried to download as my avatar and would not process ? Any tip's ?
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I totally understand everyone's skepticism and in reality i have nor had realistic hopes of anyone believing me. That would be foolhardy of me to anticipate that. I am not writing a book, simply beyond my skill set and not enough time left. The suitcase is my only keepsake. A pair of gloves that was in the case was destroyed and their condition was grim at that time anyway. I understand the "false profits" in the Cooper world are looking or was looking for that 15 minutes of fame and obviously got it because we are talking about them. I have nothing to gain nor has that thought ever entered my mind. As i said when i first joined this forum, i have not and will not contact the FBI or another agency concerning the highjacking because no matter what the FBI said about the case being closed, we would be crazy to ever believe that ! This means if real people, place's or item's were to surface they would have to do their jobs and start investigating again. For that reason, to protect family members from unnecessary harassment we will only go so far.
Get evidence including familial dna to the FBI, you should.
May the force be with you!
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I have been trying unsuccessfully to load a photo. Keeps saying "Image to large". So i tried to download as my avatar and would not process ? Any tip's ?
try this: http://www.picresize.com/
377
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Unless you can produce one of the missing twenties, or the parachute, the FBI won't waste a second looking at your man. The FBI considers the case "open", but won't spend a nickel or a minute more investigating it.
Whoa. Bold statement, Ross. First, how do you know that the FBI won't spend a nickel, and secondly, can you explain the sizeable expenditures in time and resources that went into the LD Cooper charade? Agents arriving at Santa Claus' home in Eugene within minutes of his phone call announcing he had hair brushes and such from LD?
Or the fingerprint analysis and DNA testing that they reported performed on LD's stuff?
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I totally understand everyone's skepticism... As i said when i first joined this forum, i have not and will not contact the FBI or another agency concerning the highjacking because no matter what the FBI said about the case being closed, we would be crazy to ever believe that ! This means if real people, place's or item's were to surface they would have to do their jobs and start investigating again. For that reason, to protect family members from unnecessary harassment we will only go so far.
Okay, Nightie-knight, don't contact the FBI or any other agency. But how about us? Want to talk to me off the record? If you give me a good story I will go to jail for you on a contempt of court charge if it means protecting your identity. As for the guy you think/know is DB Cooper, why not give us/me enough to corroborate what you are claiming?
Journalists are given a period of time to investigate evidentiary material on their own to verify that it was part of a crime. Sounds like you don't have a $20 - only the briefcase - so I would expect this time frame to be extensive.
AS for harassment by the feds, annoying knocks at the door, G-men following you in the dark, Men in Black asking your ex-girl friends about you, etc... that can be addressed. Tell the family to get an attorney and direct the FBI to make an appointment with the attorney to discuss any and all of their investigatory concerns. They can't barge in without a warrant. If you feel an unwanted presence like MIB cruising the neighborhood, then call me and I'll come down, take pix, confront them, and then write up the intrusive behavior. It's all good copy!
Any advice for these scared-ie cats, 377?
By The Way, Nightie-Knight, what did you do with bullies when you were a kid? It's the same thing.
If you'd like to contact me directly, email is best: brucesmith AT rainierconnect DOT com. Also, my phone number is listed in the CONTACT section of the Mountain News-WA. I'm in the book, too. Eatonville, WA.
Additionally, have you read my book? If not, it's only ten bucks at Amazon. It'll give you a good idea of the kinds of questions I've asked others who claim to know/be DB Cooper, such as Marla, Don, Ron and Pat, Jo W, Ted E, Ted B, Wolfie, Kenny, the kid from Squim, Sail, et al.
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Nightie-Knight ? Well, all was peaceful. Your offer sounds somewhat plausible so i will consider it. Hell, anyone willing to go to jail for a whole 24hrs on a contempt charge can not be all bad ;) I would not know about bullies, for some reason they stayed clear of me. ;D
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Contempt of court charges for withholding the identity of a source from a federal court can result in indefinite imprisonment - not 24 hours as is customary in local and state courts. The feds have no shield law protecting journalists. Technically, I could sit in jail for years for protecting your identity. I'm willing to do that for a good story.
Just think of all the free food I'd get! And access to a gym!
I also understand that I would continue to receive my royalty payments, since they are based upon the story I write that you tell me, and not the story of the imprisonment itself - a writer can not make money off the crime they commit. But I would be telling the story of what others did in the commission of their crime, i.e. stealing a plane and threatening to kill 42 people.
And I'd have plenty of time to write, too!
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Oh yes i forgot, the days of REAL jail time has went out the window too ! Access to a nice weight room and 3 politically correct meals a day, royalty money in your account.... Why would you want to be on the outside with that waiting for you ? Probably find yourself one hell of a "House Wife" in there too :P
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Unless you can produce one of the missing twenties, or the parachute, the FBI won't waste a second looking at your man. The FBI considers the case "open", but won't spend a nickel or a minute more investigating it.
Whoa. Bold statement, Ross. First, how do you know that the FBI won't spend a nickel, and secondly, can you explain the sizeable expenditures in time and resources that went into the LD Cooper charade? Agents arriving at Santa Claus' home in Eugene within minutes of his phone call announcing he had hair brushes and such from LD?
Or the fingerprint analysis and DNA testing that they reported performed on LD's stuff?
That was four years ago, Bruce. Have you heard of any examples of the Bureau actively pursuing leads or running DNA test or fingerprint analysis since then? If so, please enlighten us.
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I'm not buying it. Sounds way too much like Knoss.
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Oh yes i forgot, the days of REAL jail time has went out the window too ! Access to a nice weight room and 3 politically correct meals a day, royalty money in your account.... Why would you want to be on the outside with that waiting for you ? Probably find yourself one hell of a "House Wife" in there too :P
What do you think of the FBI, or the guys who are now handling the escape from Alcatraz?
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:oThis is what i know about the FBI, and i am speaking more so of the directors and "higher ups" than the grounpounders. They get so focused on one thing they literary shake hands with evidence. I will say what most people are thinking, but to afraid to say because they have been blinded as the FBI was. The highjacking was a success because of the people on that flight ! People, sometimes proof and evidence does not show itself in the form of physical object, but as freakn common sence ! The individuals that participated in the highjacking have NEVER went into hiding. I will tell you the exact moment "they" knew they we safe...when a big bottle of expensive perfume was gifted. Take it or leave it, that is the truth ! Do you people realize she had evidence in her hands the whole time ? Do you think "Cooper" has not been to some of goofy related events that have been held ? People please :o :o
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Oh yes i forgot, the days of REAL jail time has went out the window too ! Access to a nice weight room and 3 politically correct meals a day, royalty money in your account.... Why would you want to be on the outside with that waiting for you ? Probably find yourself one hell of a "House Wife" in there too :P
Well, for one thing Nightie-Knight, I wouldn't have access to a computer, or at least the Internet, so I wouldn't be able to read the DBCOOPERFORUM!
Thus, I would miss your wonderful communications, unless you came to see me in prison. Or put money in my commissary or postal account so I could call you. But then, the phone calls would be monitored and recorded.
For the record: Nightjumper71 has yet to email or call me, re: off the record corroboration.
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:oThis is what i know about the FBI, and i am speaking more so of the directors and "higher ups" than the grounpounders. They get so focused on one thing they literary shake hands with evidence. I will say what most people are thinking, but to afraid to say because they have been blinded as the FBI was. The highjacking was a success because of the people on that flight ! People, sometimes proof and evidence does not show itself in the form of physical object, but as freakn common sence ! The individuals that participated in the highjacking have NEVER went into hiding. I will tell you the exact moment "they" knew they we safe...when a big bottle of expensive perfume was gifted. Take it or leave it, that is the truth ! Do you people realize she had evidence in her hands the whole time ? Do you think "Cooper" has not been to some of goofy related events that have been held ? People please :o :o
So, are you talking about the bottle of Chanel No. 5 that Rataczak gave to Tina? That was the "All Clear" signal? How so?
When Ratacak told me about the perfume gift to Tina, he also told me that he "loved Tina, but not in a sexual way." Hence, he joins me and Bill Mitchell in the "I Have A Crush on Tina Mucklow" club. So, was Billy in on this too, or am I missing something? Do you think I am unwittingly giving a white-wash to all these conspirators?
So, if Tina and Bill Rataczak were in on the skyjacking, how are you protecting them and their families? I have interviewed them multiple times, briefly as it might have been. Eleven door slams, and still counting. As a result, I feel like I'm already a member of their families!!!
BTW: Rataczak called Himms when I was sitting in Himms' living room, talking Cooper. Do you think that was a coincidence? Or was it some kind of high-tech surveillance operation?
Lastly, LMNO is coming to Cooper Country in a few weeks to film. Wanna join the show? Or are you going to just let us spin our own little spins in private, continuing the delusions that we have spawned in the absence of substantive, corroborated information from you?
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Oh yes i forgot, the days of REAL jail time has went out the window too ! Access to a nice weight room and 3 politically correct meals a day, royalty money in your account.... Why would you want to be on the outside with that waiting for you ? Probably find yourself one hell of a "House Wife" in there too :P
As for finding true love in prison, here in my Plan A.
First, I would get a sex-change operation and let my inner Goddess free. Then, as a transgender woman, I would petition for a transfer to Litchfield - the fed's female prison in New York (or Connecticut - I forget). Besides Tina, I have a big crush on Suzanne Somebody, aka Crazy-Eyes, who is doing time there on felonious assault. But she is a writer and believes in the permeability of time and space. My kind of gal.
But Nightie- Knight, the big question is - would you come to visit me? If not, why not?
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That was four years ago, Bruce. Have you heard of any examples of the Bureau actively pursuing leads or running DNA test or fingerprint analysis since then? If so, please enlighten us.
Would a spread sheet from Accounting suffice? Are you only interested in expenses for fingerprint analysis and DNA testing? I'll see what I can do.
But - how about other expenses?
Do you think anyone is looking for the cigarette butts? That would cost time and money, no? How about Al Di, aka Idla. Is he decoding on company time, or is he freelancing privately?
Also, if the feds whacked Cossey, then that cost a pretty penny.
I also suspect that the feds were heavily involved in the Washington State Historical Museum's exhibit on Cooper in 2013. The historical presentation was heavy on the FBI's who, what and where during the early days. But there were many things missing from the Exhibit and I suspect the Bureau went through the show with a fine-toothed comb to weed out any troubling facts and questions. There was no discussion of Earl Cossey and his claims of parachute ownership or his harsh criticisms of Cooper's skydiving ability. Nor was there any explanation of how the copycats got to the ground safely, some without any prior skydiving experience or with minimal clothing despite wintry conditions.
The presentation of the flight path was just the same old - same old from the Vault. No discussion of the many dissenting views from FBI agents and principals, such as Himms and Rataczak.
Spinning a story for the public takes a lot of time and money. How much do you think the Bureau spends on keeping the Cooper story contained?
But you may be correct. Maybe the feds are going cheap on DB Cooper. After all, Carr and Eng both let the Citizens Sleuth's into the evidence room unsupervised, apparently. According to CS statements, they tore the tie apart. Who let them do that? Or were the FBI babysitters just letting the kids run crazy while they went for lattes?
And Jimmy and Jake? Who pays their salary? They came and interviewed Sailshaw when he showed up at their front door. That's the beauty of Sail. The dodgey old guy just keeps on chugging along, pestering them with emails - and walks in the main entrance and demands to talk to Cooper agents. I haven't even done that.
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Nightjumper, what is your take on the dummy chute?
You didn't answer my question about Alcatraz?
Would you be willing to talk to a producer about your story, or have you already, and denied going public?
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I will answer these questions in parts to hopefully be clear. Mr.Smith (AKA) secret agent -000, you sure know a lot about being locked up ? Would that mean you would be called "Kaitlin Smith" after the sex change :-*
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I'm sorry Shutter, i can not truthfully comment on Alcatraz because i do not know anything about The Rock. Was there a specific question ?...Dummy chute, im guessing you are referring to the reserve chute that he never used and was actually ment for temporary shelter if needed. It was not.
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If i may, i have a few questions for anyone spying this forum or actual members. These are legitimate questions that only close or personal friends would know and i have a hunch there IS someone watching that knows. Then i promise to get back and answer the other questions that Kaitlin asked earlier, because they are very spot on questions with validity.
What was Tina's nickname ?
What did Tina's personal Bible look like (be detailed please).
What was Tina's favorite perfume?
Very important one: What was Tina's first car (after the highjacking)make/model and year.
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We don't play games here Nightjumper. either present some sort of evidence/proof of what you think you know. I'm sure there are plenty of other forums that engage in riddles, and games that will meet your needs.
Knoss played the same sort of games when he joined dropzone. this isn't dropzone. cold hard facts. not things that can't be checked. that's what we like to see here.
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I am not a game player Mr.Shutter, legitimate questions that have answers. Are you saying with all the investigative mind power here no one really knows the answers to any of the questions ? Agent -000 ? You are on the path, what do you really know ? People, please stop focusing on what happened after the highjacking. Tina, Bobby and "Cooper" knew each other a short time before the highjacking."Cooper" was not the only person to walk off that plane with money !
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I am not a game player Mr.Shutter, legitimate questions that have answers. Are you saying with all the investigative mind power here no one really knows the answers to any of the questions ? Agent -000 ? You are on the path, what do you really know ? People, please stop focusing on what happened after the highjacking. Tina, Bobby and "Cooper" knew each other a short time before the highjacking."Cooper" was not the only person to walk off that plane with money !
Once again, you need to provide some sort of proof. this doesn't mean what you know that can't be checked, or verified. that makes it a story. hard facts are what we like to see. we don't like to go fishing for them. you are putting things together that almost anyone could do who has better than average knowledge about the case.
Knoss tried the dummy chute bit, but didn't realize the canopy was sewn shut, and not the container. the milk can theory of how the money got to Tina bar. McCoy is still alive etc. etc. he states the truth as well? how many of you guys hold this key?
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I agree with you 100%. Anybody including myself could just spew out lies and hope one of them hits home. I on the other hand have nothing to gain by lying or telling the truth quit frankly. I figured that one or two of you had personal interviews with Tina and Bobby they surely would of asked any and all questions as would a FBI agent or another detective that is on the ball !
Tina's nickname was Mouse or Squeaky
Tina's personal Bible that she always had with her EXCEPT 305 was a small leather covered Bible that she always kept in a zippered leather Bible case with a gold cross on front only. Not the larger Bible she was carrying the day of the highjacking.
Tina hated perfumes and preferred not using it, but Bobby had bought her a small bottle of No 5 prior and told her how good she smelled.
Tina's first car after the highjacking was a Ford LTD Brougham 2dr, Brown. Bought in Canada with Canadian money..."Transferable Money" 1973. That can be traced !
Mr.Smith is absolutely correct, Bobby loved Tina to death, but she was always very squeamish around him. Always hanging her head while in his presence.
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What I am telling you unarguably, absolutely Tina walk off that plane with THAT BIBLE in her arms with cash inside. That is a fact !
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What I am telling you unarguably, absolutely Tina walk off that plane with THAT BIBLE in her arms with cash inside. That is a fact !
It's only a fact if proven. I can tell you she wasn't wearing underwear?
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She was not, pantyhose. Big difference. ;)
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Was there even any confirmation that was a bible, if so, where is the link?
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With the thousands of round's i fired down range while in combat did i actually see everyone of my targets go down ? No, but that does not mean i did not connect. "The truth is only denied by those who are scared of the truth".
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With the thousands of round's i fired down range while in combat did i actually see everyone of my targets go down ? No, but that does not mean i did not connect. "The truth is only denied by those who are scared of the truth".
Quotes are a dime a dozen. facts from people such as yourself are impossible to get. once again, Knoss does the exact samething by trying to divert, or misdirect. it seems every time there is an old crime, or mystery, a conspiracy will be lurking around the corner waiting to fill in the gaps. the problem is the gaps never get filled in. they just go round, and round the wheel never stopping.
Facts
The sun will come up tomorrow
Tomorrow will be September 2, 2015
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I have no clue about any links. I do not need to look up anything concerning the highjacking. I am sure there are photos of Tina right after the highjacking with Bible in hand.
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I have no clue about any links. I do not need to look up anything concerning the highjacking. I am sure there are photos of Tina right after the highjacking with Bible in hand.
I'm extremely happy for you. as for me? I'm done with this conversation. when you have some proof just post it, and we can continue..
Shutter
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Fact is naysayers are a dime a dozen and fact is you do not want the truth, because this event that you have turned into hobby will end. You have a freaky infatuation with this knoss character ? Fact: the sun will come up tomorrow, but you will still be in the dark. Not everyone is lying just because its not digestible to you. I have answered every question you have asked. You do not want the truth Mr.Shutter, that is so very clear.
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Fact is naysayers are a dime a dozen and fact is you do not want the truth, because this event that you have turned into hobby will end. You have a freaky infatuation with this knoss character ? Fact: the sun will come up tomorrow, but you will still be in the dark. Not everyone is lying just because its not digestible to you. I have answered every question you have asked. You do not want the truth Mr.Shutter, that is so very clear.
I'm going to tell you this one more time...DO NOT try and blame me for not providing anything of substance. talk is cheap. don't try and turn the tables on me. do you follow!!
I keep bringing up Knoss because you sound just like him...do you understand? others have mentioned the same, so it's not just me. this is what's called fact! do I need to start posting some of his truth?
It's very simple. a story is when something can't be backed up. you are rapidly falling into this guideline.
Facts are proven with evidence. that doesn't include hearsay, or what you believe are facts.
Documents, photo's, recordings, statements. these are things that will provide facts.
The burden of proof is on YOU. not me.
Final Warning!
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Fact is naysayers are a dime a dozen and fact is you do not want the truth, because this event that you have turned into hobby will end. You have a freaky infatuation with this knoss character ? Fact: the sun will come up tomorrow, but you will still be in the dark. Not everyone is lying just because its not digestible to you. I have answered every question you have asked. You do not want the truth Mr.Shutter, that is so very clear.
I'd still like to see a photo of your suspect.
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Robert Knoss states:
I have a similar position on what I KNOW to be the truth and have my own adgenda, to simply expose what really happened. I will do that, because it is right.
But he fails to provide any evidence....
Knoss:
Simple truth. Obvious. If I weren't right, you'd just ignor me
He would make post after post making it impossible to "ignore him"
Knoss:
We get close to exposing something, as soon as you see it fitting together, you throw all the cards on the floor and yell, "Game Over!!" That's not the way to play fair, or to search for truth.
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I will keep trying to load the photo. Maybe to a private email ?...Mr.Shutter, demand all you want it bothers me none. No i do not follow you ? No i do not understand. I am twisting nothing but your mind it seems. Here is another dime for your dozen, "Defensive are those who fear reality". Read nmiwrecks quote or signature at bottom of every post. That is you Mr.Shutter like or not. Good luck in your hobby. 8)
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I will keep trying to load the photo. Maybe to a private email ?...Mr.Shutter, demand all you want it bothers me none. No i do not follow you ? No i do not understand. I am twisting nothing but your mind it seems. Here is another dime for your dozen, "Defensive are those who fear reality". Read nmiwrecks quote or signature at bottom of every post. That is you Mr.Shutter like or not. Good luck in your hobby. 8)
Proof is not being defensive. I like facts, not stories. you want to wonder around on forums speaking truth, but fail to provide anything other than words. if you are having trouble with the photo. it probably too big. shrink it down, and it will post just fine.
stop shifting the blame on me. you have to prove your story, not me, not NMIwrecks, or anyone else. it's that simple. I've given you plenty room in the past, and have continued, but you always fumble around blaming me, or acting as if I don't want the truth? provide it! it's very simple. telling it doesn't cut it.
Yes, it is a hobby. you claim (as other do) to speak truth, but you guys never go past a public forum? the popular excuse will always pop up when a producer, or law enforcement come into play, why is that? why only tell a chosen few when you could tell millions the truth?
Please Advise 8)
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Hi Nightjumper. I'm sorry if I missed a conversation on this, but I did notice your quote also, at the end of your posts. Why is time now your worst enemy?
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Once again i have answered every question you have asked and with truth, i can not help the answer is not to your satisfaction. Can you prove to me what you ate for breakfast, lunch and supper on 24 November 1971 ? If you have no proof, no pictures of the meals, it surely must mean you did not eat at all that day and if you say you did your a lier because you have no visible proof. Does that sound even remotely sane to you ?
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Once again i have answered every question you have asked and with truth, i can not help the answer is not to your satisfaction. Can you prove to me what you ate for breakfast, lunch and supper on 24 November 1971 ? If you have no proof, no pictures of the meals, it surely must mean you did not eat at all that day and if you say you did your a lier because you have no visible proof. Does that sound even remotely sane to you ?
As I've said in the past. it's just a story. you are more than welcome to tell the story all you wish.
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iekline4, it means the more time that past the safer i felt, but now that time is not on my side anymore, i feel i should of maybe done things a little differently. Hope that answers your question and good eye :D
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It is that, one hell of a story.
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It is that, one hell of a story.
Christians claim to know the truth. Muslims claim to know the truth. Hindus claim to know the truth. You have billions of people claiming their different truths are the "real" truth. If you want to tell us about your beliefs and feelings, I think we are all fine with that. If you want to tell us the "truth", then simply make God appear, and he will take care the rest! I don't think that's a lot to ask.
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
Just to put things in context, "Nightjumper", about twenty people have come forward with a solution to the case (I'm one of them) and claim they are 100% certain (I am not one of those) without providing any type of evidence that could close the case. Only one of us could be right, and maybe none of us are. I think that is why there is a fair amount of skepticism here.
I am posting a couple of images of "Nightjumper's" suspect. The first one is the original and the second is touched up a little. Thoughts?
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Thank you for posting those.
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
Lets try this again, shall we? Bob Knoss did the exact same thing by giving "traceable clues" guess what happened when we tried looking up these "traceable clues" nothing! he also had very similar remarks such as you do? he constantly told he story adding the truth bomb in may of his comments. you really need to contact Knoss. I believe some sort of mix up occurred at the hospital when you guys were born. I will provide a picture of Knoss, and you can decide whether it's possible you could be family. Lmao (added for heart pounding drama)
How's that photo coming along to Ross? he's trying to get some truth?
While we battle for the truth. perhaps you would like to discuss this truth to Curtis Eng., or a Hollywood producer? or do you only feel it's not ratting family members out on a public forum vs the actual public?
I see you posted a photo...are those eye's blue?
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Right off the bat we see a very bad photo. do I see blue eye's. it's a very bad example of trying to prove something. not a good start in my opinion.
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Right off the bat we see a very bad photo. do I see blue eye's. it's a very bad example of trying to prove something. not a good start in my opinion.
To me, the man in the photo (Miller) appears to have similar facial features and dimensions as sketch B. Not as much of a resemblance to sketch A though.
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Right off the bat we see a very bad photo. do I see blue eye's. it's a very bad example of trying to prove something. not a good start in my opinion.
To me, the man in the photo (Miller) appears to have similar facial features and dimensions as sketch B. Not as much of a resemblance to sketch A though.
I think the description needs to be the first thing to look over, and then view the sketch. I don't see much of a sideburn going on, the ears are sticking out noticeably, and I believe the eye color is wrong. it's hard to tell with a faded photo.
Several suspects fit the sketch amazingly well. Gossett has a very good match, but he has been a suspect for years. physical evidence always lacks in the case. yes, it's decades old, but some suspects have been around almost as long. one of the first suspects lost his life over the weekend. Teddy looked like a character for sure, or the guy who could light up the party when it started to fade out.
Bob Knoss swears to know the truth. he believes Richard McCoy was in charge of the Cooper jump.
Jo Weber swears her husband was Dan Cooper.
Robert Blevins believes (final admits) Kenny Christiansen was Dan Cooper
Marla Cooper believes Lynn Doyle Cooper was Dan Cooper.
Sailshaw believes Sheridan Peterson is Dan Cooper.
Nightjumper71 believes he knows who Dan Cooper is..
This is a lot of truth coming from many different people. some scream out we want to block, or deny the truth. how can they all be right while we are the ones wrong?
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As i said Mr.Shutter no amount of proof will make you happy. You are having to much fun trying to find your back side with both hands and can not seem to quit get it Lol. Your investigation efforts seem to be focused on this rather odd, disturbing and freakishly unhealthy obsession with this Knows joker ? Very obvious you have a love-hate relationship with this fellow. :-\ :-*
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Sorry, tears of laughter, could not seen keys Lol. Ment Knoss not knows.
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As i said Mr.Shutter no amount of proof will make you happy. You are having to much fun trying to find your back side with both hands and can not seem to quit get it Lol. Your investigation efforts seem to be focused on this rather odd, disturbing and freakishly unhealthy obsession with this Knows joker ? Very obvious you have a love-hate relationship with this fellow. :-\ :-*
I go by facts. not stories, and when I see a resemblance to something, I show it. you like to turn the tables on people. you come into my house, and plant your feet on my coffee table showing zero respect! it doesn't matter who the joker is. it matters that you follow the same path. I am quickly growing tired of your attitude. either present your story, or I can show you the path out of here? you will not tie up this forum.
This will be the last time I will respond to these claims. you are more than welcome to present your case (with proof) all you wish. you may also continue to tell the story without substance. the next time you disrespect my position, I'll just put you in the corner where you will only be allowed to observe...Understood?
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Do as you wish almighty OZ. Lol. You once again banning me from this forum will bother me none. Just proved as last time when you get a little bit uncomfortable with comments that hit home you deal with it the only way you know how...flex your cyber muscles if it make's you feel better about yourself. ;D
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Hi all,
I am proposing a video conference call via Skype tonight 8pm-9pm Eastern, 5pm-6pm Pacific. I think this is a really good idea. We can discuss the latest happenings in the case, this forum and suspects. My skype id is "michiganmysteries". Let me know if you're interested and I'll figure out how to pull it off by tonight.
Thanks!
Ross R.
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Do as you wish almighty OZ. Lol. You once again banning me from this forum will bother me none. Just proved as last time when you get a little bit uncomfortable with comments that hit home you deal with it the only way you know how...flex your cyber muscles if it make's you feel better about yourself. ;D
You obviously have an issue with authority. sometimes things have to be done for things to function properly. I'm not uncomfortable with what your opinion is of me as much as the disrespect you have shown. it has zip to do with "flexing a cyber muscle" I've made my position clear as to what is needed. it wasn't disrespectful, or out of line. since it doesn't bother you I will grant your wish turning it into a fact.
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Hi all,
I am proposing a video conference call via Skype tonight 8pm-9pm Eastern, 5pm-6pm Pacific. I think this is a really good idea. We can discuss the latest happenings in the case, this forum and suspects. My skype id is "michiganmysteries". Let me know if you're interested and I'll figure out how to pull it off by tonight.
Thanks!
Ross R.
That's a good idea. the only problem I have is I don't have a thing to wear ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Well, if Shutters coming to the party naked....count me out!!
Sorry Shutter.
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Well, if Shutters coming to the party naked....count me out!!
Sorry Shutter.
Ha, Ha...I was trying a poor attempt of what women always say...."I don't have a thing to wear"
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Bye. And my question wasn't meant to be antagonistic just so you know. I know things are tense here...just wanted to know...
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Bye. And my question wasn't meant to be antagonistic just so you know. I know things are tense here...just wanted to know...
This wasn't the first problem with nightjumper, he pretty much started out the last time arguing with posters when he first joined. then I would get emails from someone off this thread telling, and showing me a similar story he was telling her that didn't match very well to what he was presenting here.
It's sad that people have to act out like this over a decades old unsolved crime?
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Thank you for the add. Sorry I haven't addressed everyone or said hello. I'm usually here reading after long shifts at work, and with spotty connections. I really enjoy the forum. Your discussions are very informative on a fascinating case and very interesting. So thanks again and Hi to everyone
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Thank you for the add. Sorry I haven't addressed everyone or said hello. I'm usually here reading after long shifts at work, and with spotty connections. I really enjoy the forum. Your discussions are very informative on a fascinating case and very interesting. So thanks again and Hi to everyone
Thanks, and hello. I believe we have spoken in the past, but that's ok. the case seems to have a lot of twisty turns in it. we should have some good stuff coming up in the near future. who knows what lies ahead, but it's always interesting to say the least.
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Hi all,
I am proposing a video conference call via Skype tonight 8pm-9pm Eastern, 5pm-6pm Pacific. I think this is a really good idea. We can discuss the latest happenings in the case, this forum and suspects. My skype id is "michiganmysteries". Let me know if you're interested and I'll figure out how to pull it off by tonight.
Ross, did we get some bites on the Skype idea? I was for it, but I think perhaps we need a little more time in advance to get the news out? maybe we could shoot for this weekend if that could be arranged?
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Hi all,
I am proposing a video conference call via Skype tonight 8pm-9pm Eastern, 5pm-6pm Pacific. I think this is a really good idea. We can discuss the latest happenings in the case, this forum and suspects. My skype id is "michiganmysteries". Let me know if you're interested and I'll figure out how to pull it off by tonight.
Ross, did we get some bites on the Skype idea? I was for it, but I think perhaps we need a little more time in advance to get the news out? maybe we could shoot for this weekend if that could be arranged?
It's a good idea. I think Bruce came up with it first. Wednesdays are best for me, as I work in the library and have some free time. I can make any night work. I'm going to be out of town this weekend, so this weekend would be a little sketchy. What's a good night for those who want be involved?
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
Just to put things in context, "Nightjumper", about twenty people have come forward with a solution to the case (I'm one of them) and claim they are 100% certain (I am not one of those) without providing any type of evidence that could close the case. Only one of us could be right, and maybe none of us are. I think that is why there is a fair amount of skepticism here.
I am posting a couple of images of "Nightjumper's" suspect. The first one is the original and the second is touched up a little. Thoughts?
Just for fun, I took this photo and searched it on Google Images. It found a "match", but it was a recent photo -- not someone from the 1970s. Some European college prof....
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
Just to put things in context, "Nightjumper", about twenty people have come forward with a solution to the case (I'm one of them) and claim they are 100% certain (I am not one of those) without providing any type of evidence that could close the case. Only one of us could be right, and maybe none of us are. I think that is why there is a fair amount of skepticism here.
I am posting a couple of images of "Nightjumper's" suspect. The first one is the original and the second is touched up a little. Thoughts?
Just for fun, I took this photo and searched it on Google Images. It found a "match", but it was a recent photo -- not someone from the 1970s. Some European college prof....
Can you provide the link to the photo?
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So much for the so called truth from nightjumper71!
The briefcase he states was used after the crime can be found on Etsy for $49.00
They scream for justice, tell us we don't want the truth etc. etc.
Nightie states
"The truth is only denied by those who are scared of the truth"
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So much for the so called truth from nightjumper71!
The briefcase he states was used after the crime can be found on Etsy for $49.00
They scream for justice, tell us we don't want the truth etc. etc.
Nightie states
"The truth is only denied by those who are scared of the truth"
Whoa! Say it isn't so! Why would "nightjumper" put such an important piece of evidence from the case on ETSY? I don't get it.
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
Just to put things in context, "Nightjumper", about twenty people have come forward with a solution to the case (I'm one of them) and claim they are 100% certain (I am not one of those) without providing any type of evidence that could close the case. Only one of us could be right, and maybe none of us are. I think that is why there is a fair amount of skepticism here.
I am posting a couple of images of "Nightjumper's" suspect. The first one is the original and the second is touched up a little. Thoughts?
Just for fun, I took this photo and searched it on Google Images. It found a "match", but it was a recent photo -- not someone from the 1970s. Some European college prof....
Can you provide the link to the photo?
Oops. I thought I did. I will tonight.
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So much for the so called truth from nightjumper71!
The briefcase he states was used after the crime can be found on Etsy for $49.00
They scream for justice, tell us we don't want the truth etc. etc.
Nightie states
"The truth is only denied by those who are scared of the truth"
Whoa! Say it isn't so! Why would "nightjumper" put such an important piece of evidence from the case on ETSY? I don't get it.
Out of date Props must be sold. It's in the contract! Be sure and have your sequined Cooper boots back to the prop room by Noon tomorrow for Margaret to check off - or you will be charged! :) :)
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Most people dont check things like this. He just looked for a good pic and ran with it obviously......on my phone...hate trying to type..
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Most people dont check things like this. He just looked for a good pic and ran with it obviously......on my phone...hate trying to type..
Can we charge him by the minute? In cases like this, the real name of the perp needs to be exposed!
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Most people dont check things like this. He just looked for a good pic and ran with it obviously......on my phone...hate trying to type..
Can we charge him by the minute? In cases like this, the real name of the perp needs to be exposed!
Jo sent me several emails when he first joined. then she showed me the story about the guy on the side of the store. on this forum he wasn't injured, but the email she had was different. the man had an injury to his leg, and was bigger than what he explained here.
Over time these people forget what they have said in the past, and that's usually when I get them. I nailed Knoss several times with older comments. Bobby has turned out to be a little story teller as well. my hands will need an hour break to go thru his lies/stories/fabrications... :o those sci-fi writers sure can pop up with some whoppers :D I know why Recihenbach left too, so he better stay clear of that issue 8)
Nightjumper had a different IP during the times he was here. Iowa, New York, Wisconsin. his last one was pinging Illinois.
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Group Hug on Skype would be cool.
Wednesdays are good with me, but a day or two notice is best with me.
My Skype address is Brucesmith4949
So Nightie-Knight has left? Sigh. He/She was a trip. It felt like the old days at the DZ for awhile.
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Group Hug on Skype would be cool.
Wednesdays are good with me, but a day or two notice is best with me.
My Skype address is Brucesmith4949
So Nightie-Knight has left? Sigh. He/She was a trip. It felt like the old days at the DZ for awhile.
I can live without those days.... :P
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Group Hug on Skype would be cool.
Wednesdays are good with me, but a day or two notice is best with me.
My Skype address is Brucesmith4949
So Nightie-Knight has left? Sigh. He/She was a trip. It felt like the old days at the DZ for awhile.
I can live without those days.... :P
+4 ;D
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8)
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8)
Thanks - feeling better.
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You people really do not want the truth. You are having to much fun trying to dig a hole in water. You know the digging will get you no where and you are fine with that. I think boredom fuel your need to go nowhere. You are so blinded by your tunnel vision God could appear and you would not see him. I gave you a last name that has never been offered and a traceable automobile sale. I have pointed out specific items that were a part of the highjacking and still you dig in water Lol, WOW !.. :o :o
Just to put things in context, "Nightjumper", about twenty people have come forward with a solution to the case (I'm one of them) and claim they are 100% certain (I am not one of those) without providing any type of evidence that could close the case. Only one of us could be right, and maybe none of us are. I think that is why there is a fair amount of skepticism here.
I am posting a couple of images of "Nightjumper's" suspect. The first one is the original and the second is touched up a little. Thoughts?
Just for fun, I took this photo and searched it on Google Images. It found a "match", but it was a recent photo -- not someone from the 1970s. Some European college prof....
Can you provide the link to the photo?
This was from the search of the Miller photo that NightJumper71 posted.
http://uu.academia.edu/CoenDeGoeij/Activity
It's a young guy.
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Nightie-night, Nightjumper71.
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305 left Seattle at 7::33 approx after landing at 5:45pm. We know that shortly after landing Tina retrieved the money, passengers were allowed to leave, the chutes came on, and according to the stews Cooper put on a back pack shortly after that and began stripping out a small chute of its cordage trying to fabricate a carrier for the money. All of this long before 7:33pm. Presumably Cooper has a back pack on through the long refueling and during his period of preparation ???
Did Cooper sit with the back pack on during this period? Did he stand? Can one sit on one of these 727 seats_with a large backpack parachute on? Can someone enlighten me? Or did Cooper stand the whole time after putting on the large back pack? I can find no testimony which clarifies this. Conceivably Cooper had a back pack on while on the plane for approximately 2.0 hours?
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7:33?
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305 left Seattle at 7::33 approx after landing at 5:45pm. We know that shortly after landing Tina retrieved the money, passengers were allowed to leave, the chutes came on, and according to the stews Cooper put on a back pack shortly after that and began stripping out a small chute of its cordage trying to fabricate a carrier for the money. All of this long before 7:33pm. Presumably Cooper has a back pack on through the long refueling and during his period of preparation ???
Did Cooper sit with the back pack on during this period? Did he stand? Can one sit on one of these 727 seats_with a large backpack parachute on? Can someone enlighten me? Or did Cooper stand the whole time after putting on the large back pack? I can find no testimony which clarifies this. Conceivably Cooper had a back pack on while on the plane for approximately 2.0 hours?
One of the recently released files includes a statement from someone (?) that the airliner took off from Seattle at 7:36 PM PST.
The Navy NB-6 parachute is relatively thin compared to standard 28 foot canopy parachutes. Nevertheless, it would be difficult for Cooper to sit in an airliner seat with that parachute on.
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7:33?
Yep: Sluggo says: 19:33 PST Flt 305 takes off None Estimated based on next transmission.
Mucklow: Approximately four minutes after take off at 7:36 he stood up and told her to go the cockpit and close the first class curtain, ...
'Rataczak added that after take off at 7:36 pm '
Andy: Anderson stated that the departure from Seattle was made at 7:36pm and at
about 8:05 pm he called the hijacker ...
The departure doesn't fit with anything on the transcripts with a 7:33 takeoff time...7:36 has been widely used for the actual takeoff time...
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305 left Seattle at 7::33 approx after landing at 5:45pm. We know that shortly after landing Tina retrieved the money, passengers were allowed to leave, the chutes came on, and according to the stews Cooper put on a back pack shortly after that and began stripping out a small chute of its cordage trying to fabricate a carrier for the money. All of this long before 7:33pm. Presumably Cooper has a back pack on through the long refueling and during his period of preparation ???
Did Cooper sit with the back pack on during this period? Did he stand? Can one sit on one of these 727 seats_with a large backpack parachute on? Can someone enlighten me? Or did Cooper stand the whole time after putting on the large back pack? I can find no testimony which clarifies this. Conceivably Cooper had a back pack on while on the plane for approximately 2.0 hours?
One of the recently released files includes a statement from someone (?) that the airliner took off from Seattle at 7:36 PM PST.
The Navy NB-6 parachute is relatively thin compared to standard 28 foot canopy parachutes. Nevertheless, it would be difficult for Cooper to sit in an airliner seat with that parachute on.
Well it sounds a little uncomfortable and taxing - would affect one's mobility - by the end of it some people would be glad to jump out of the back of an airplane! :) We are talking about this guy walking/sitting around in a parachute for up to 2 hours. He must have been in pretty good shape? But I suppose paratroopers and fire fighters stand and sit around with chutes on for prolonged periods of time? By comparison, how long did McCoy have his chute on before he bailed?
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305 left Seattle at 7::33 approx after landing at 5:45pm. We know that shortly after landing Tina retrieved the money, passengers were allowed to leave, the chutes came on, and according to the stews Cooper put on a back pack shortly after that and began stripping out a small chute of its cordage trying to fabricate a carrier for the money. All of this long before 7:33pm. Presumably Cooper has a back pack on through the long refueling and during his period of preparation ???
Did Cooper sit with the back pack on during this period? Did he stand? Can one sit on one of these 727 seats_with a large backpack parachute on? Can someone enlighten me? Or did Cooper stand the whole time after putting on the large back pack? I can find no testimony which clarifies this. Conceivably Cooper had a back pack on while on the plane for approximately 2.0 hours?
\
When I jumped from the ex SAS DC 9-21 in 2006 all jumpers were seated in normal passenger seats with their gear on. It wasn't too uncomfortable.
377
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Am a bit shocked and dismayed that the NEW files have provoked so little response. I guess people knew it all, had it all - already? Or it doesn't matter - doesn't fit the standard agenda of drama and drum signals through the Cooper forest?
Would brand new data on the brand new Hominid Species found in So Afrika help? That D4DR population who survived by grit and determination on the primeval savannah having just come down from the trees in search of a Cooper Project to think about?
Did Cooper arrive on the Titanic? I'll bet the Foremans and JT know!
:D
If no Cooper shoes were found does that mean he died with his boots on!?
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Am a bit shocked and dismayed that the NEW files have provoked so little response. I guess people knew it all, had it all - already? Or it doesn't matter - doesn't fit the standard agenda of drama and drum signals through the Cooper forest?
I agree, I was set back once they were released and hardly anyone said anything for a while. I kinda thought it would send shock waves, but not much happened... :-\
I did receive several emails about them from members, but the overall response was unexpectedly low..I'll keep pushing on though 8)
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Am a bit shocked and dismayed that the NEW files have provoked so little response. I guess people knew it all, had it all - already? Or it doesn't matter - doesn't fit the standard agenda of drama and drum signals through the Cooper forest?
I agree, I was set back once they were released and hardly anyone said anything for a while. I kinda thought it would send shock waves, but not much happened... :-\
I did receive several emails about them from members, but the overall response was unexpectedly low..I'll keep pushing on though 8)
I guess people prefer to keep milking the Foreman corpse! It has given about all it can give ? ;)
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Am a bit shocked and dismayed that the NEW files have provoked so little response. I guess people knew it all, had it all - already? Or it doesn't matter - doesn't fit the standard agenda of drama and drum signals through the Cooper forest?
Would brand new data on the brand new Hominid Species found in So Afrika help? That D4DR population who survived by grit and determination on the primeval savannah having just come down from the trees in search of a Cooper Project to think about?
Did Cooper arrive on the Titanic? I'll bet the Foremans and JT know!
:D
If no Cooper shoes were found does that mean he died with his boots on!?
It will take time to absorb and process everything. I printed everything out and started taking notes and making highlights.
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I agree with Andrade; it will take time to process all the information.
One element that keeps it from being really DRAMATIC is that there is no new information that strongly contradicts anyone or the existing narrative of who said what, when, and what they did in response.
If these crew debriefs came out before GG's book, it would have produced more of a wave. Nevertheless, these are important pieces of information and will find their rightful place in the Cooper lexicon. I am considering posting them or some distilled version in my print edition as a reference aide.
I pushed Ayn Dietrich-Williams for more confirmation on them, but she back-peddled and said that the case agent would have to search through thousands of case files to satisfactorily answer my question. Gee, really? I would have thought that the Norjak case agent would have the crew debriefs at his fingertips.
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I agree with Andrade; it will take time to process all the information.
If these crew debriefs came out before GG's book, it would have produced more of a wave. Nevertheless, these are important pieces of information and will find their rightful place in the Cooper lexicon. I am considering posting them or some distilled version in my print edition as a reference aide.
Obviously the debriefs existed prior to GG or his book. GG told you they looked vaguely familiar? ;) ;) Maybe GG's book was supposed to supplant the debriefs? Wouldn't that be clever. :)
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Thank you so much for posting the crew notes. Ron and I have been looking through them ever since. At one point:
"She (Tina in #5) told him it would be a few minutes longer while they filed a flight plan and he said, "Never mind, they can do that over the radio once we get up. Let's get the show on the road."
That statement is just one of many that seems to point to D B being a pilot.
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Thank you so much for posting the crew notes. Ron and I have been looking through them ever since. At one point:
"She (Tina in #5) told him it would be a few minutes longer while they filed a flight plan and he said, "Never mind, they can do that over the radio once we get up. Let's get the show on the road."
That statement is just one of many that seems to point to D B being a pilot.
All kinds of people live in and around aviation and know something about how aviation works, without being a pilot. The same applies in every area of life. Remember, FOX News is fair and balanced and knows more than anyone else knows - about everything! Isn't that how some in Cooperland operate?
The most you can say about Cooper is that he gave a lot of orders/requests some of which were technical, and some were true and appropriate, and some of his requests were not true and appropriate. Maybe Cooper had a Boy's Scout Airplane Merit Badge ? Only the Cooper money worms knows.
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Another quote from the new documents:
"Anderson stated that approximately 5 to 10 minutes after the last contact with subject at 8:05 pm, they heard and felt an oscillation of the aircraft and commented that the hijacker could have departed causing the unusual vibration since there had been no change in flight parameters or any other external force which would account for this sudden vibration. They telephoned the company representative ( __________ in ___________) shortly thereafter and stated that the ‘oscillation’ which could have been the hijacker’s departure, would have occurred between 8:05 pm and their call to the company 5 or ten minutes later, the exact time being recorded in the company log. Anderson stated that they had not reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof."
This would also coincide with what Barb told us about the jump that night. She stated she went a bit down on the stairs to look for the lights of Portland to start her timing to the jump site, then waited at the top out of the wind to do her timing and wait for the search light from Aurora airport to hit the plane at a 45 degree angle. Note that with flying in those wind conditions and with that configuration of the airplane, the ride would be quite bumpy. The pilots would have been more in tune to a slight oscillation in the time directly after the door opened and could easily have missed a second slight oscillation. Or perhaps the second oscillation occurred when there was more buffeting of the plane.
As we read through these documents we are more convinced than ever that Barb was D B. The phrases mentioned, the offering of the money, the point where Tina says he shows a sense of humor, all sound exactly like the Barb we knew.
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Another quote from the new documents:
"Anderson stated that approximately 5 to 10 minutes after the last contact with subject at 8:05 pm, they heard and felt an oscillation of the aircraft and commented that the hijacker could have departed causing the unusual vibration since there had been no change in flight parameters or any other external force which would account for this sudden vibration. They telephoned the company representative ( __________ in ___________) shortly thereafter and stated that the ‘oscillation’ which could have been the hijacker’s departure, would have occurred between 8:05 pm and their call to the company 5 or ten minutes later, the exact time being recorded in the company log. Anderson stated that they had not reached Portland proper but were definitely in the suburbs or immediate vicinity thereof."
This would also coincide with what Barb told us about the jump that night. She stated she went a bit down on the stairs to look for the lights of Portland to start her timing to the jump site, then waited at the top out of the wind to do her timing and wait for the search light from Aurora airport to hit the plane at a 45 degree angle. Note that with flying in those wind conditions and with that configuration of the airplane, the ride would be quite bumpy. The pilots would have been more in tune to a slight oscillation in the time directly after the door opened and could easily have missed a second slight oscillation. Or perhaps the second oscillation occurred when there was more buffeting of the plane.
As we read through these documents we are more convinced than ever that Barb was D B. The phrases mentioned, the offering of the money, the point where Tina says he shows a sense of humor, all sound exactly like the Barb we knew.
Another interesting item is the tie and tie clasp. A logical explanation of the clasp being found on the left side is that shirt it was attached to was a women's shirt, with the buttons on the opposite side.
I'm compiling a list of suspects and their attributes for Shutter's website. Do you know Barb's height, weight, hair and eye color and age at the time of the skyjacking event?
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Barb was 5'8". Her eyes were a bit odd in color, almost a steel gray, but they were listed as blue. Her hair was brown and she would have been 44 at the time of the jump. Her description was what made me initially not believe her story, but the research we did after her death convinced me that I was wrong.
We asked Barb about the discrepancy in height. She told us that she appeared taller because she has a longer torso and appears taller when she is seated. I remember looking at her at the time she said that. She was sitting next to Ron. He is 5'9" and Barb appeared to be about 2 inches taller when they were sitting next to each other.
She told us that she used black shoe polish to darken her hair. We experimented with this on a wig obtained from the Goodwill and the affect was similar to the description given by one of the witnesses that the hair was "black like patent leather shoes".
Tina stated that the only time she saw Cooper standing was when he went to the lavatory and it's unclear whether she was standing or sitting at the time. She also stated that she never saw his eyes due to the dark glasses.
There has been a lot of research done on eye witness accounts since the emergence of DNA testing. Reliable sources say that only one in five eye witness accounts are accurate and it has been proven that the existence of a weapon makes people overestimate weight and height.
With all this, I am surprised that the FBI would use the fact that someone did not match the eye witness accounts as the only reason for eliminating someone.
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Barb was 5'8". Her eyes were a bit odd in color, almost a steel gray, but they were listed as blue. Her hair was brown and she would have been 44 at the time of the jump. Her description was what made me initially not believe her story, but the research we did after her death convinced me that I was wrong.
We asked Barb about the discrepancy in height. She told us that she appeared taller because she has a longer torso and appears taller when she is seated. I remember looking at her at the time she said that. She was sitting next to Ron. He is 5'9" and Barb appeared to be about 2 inches taller when they were sitting next to each other.
She told us that she used black shoe polish to darken her hair. We experimented with this on a wig obtained from the Goodwill and the affect was similar to the description given by one of the witnesses that the hair was "black like patent leather shoes".
Tina stated that the only time she saw Cooper standing was when he went to the lavatory and it's unclear whether she was standing or sitting at the time. She also stated that she never saw his eyes due to the dark glasses.
There has been a lot of research done on eye witness accounts since the emergence of DNA testing. Reliable sources say that only one in five eye witness accounts are accurate and it has been proven that the existence of a weapon makes people overestimate weight and height.
With all this, I am surprised that the FBI would use the fact that someone did not match the eye witness accounts as the only reason for eliminating someone.
Should also mention that the 5'8" was the height from when Barb joined the Merchant Marines at the age of 17. When standing next to Ron she appeared to be the same height so we have always called her 5'9".
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Lets not gloss over this green paper bag thingy, what could that be?
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Lets not gloss over this green paper bag thingy, what could that be?
So where did "small brown paper bag" come from, and go to? Now it turns out to be green? How did it get to be brown, if it was green ? Somebody was color blind?
What stores in the Portland area sold things in green paper bags? Hardware store?
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Carr only states a "small paper bag"...did everyone automatically assume brown?
Was it something purchased that was in green bag?
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Lets not gloss over this green paper bag thingy, what could that be?
So where did "small brown paper bag" come from, and go to? Now it turns out to be green? How did it get to be brown, if it was green ? Somebody was color blind?
What stores in the Portland area sold things in green paper bags? Hardware store?
My sources tell me it was an air sickness bag.
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Lets not gloss over this green paper bag thingy, what could that be?
So where did "small brown paper bag" come from, and go to? Now it turns out to be green? How did it get to be brown, if it was green ? Somebody was color blind?
What stores in the Portland area sold things in green paper bags? Hardware store?
My sources tell me it was an air sickness bag.
Really.? ???
In any event no mention of the brown paper bag in these new files which has always been part of the Cooper story ...
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Lets not gloss over this green paper bag thingy, what could that be?
So where did "small brown paper bag" come from, and go to? Now it turns out to be green? How did it get to be brown, if it was green ? Somebody was color blind?
What stores in the Portland area sold things in green paper bags? Hardware store?
My sources tell me it was an air sickness bag.
I would think the stews would of pointed that out?
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Lets not gloss over this green paper bag thingy, what could that be?
So where did "small brown paper bag" come from, and go to? Now it turns out to be green? How did it get to be brown, if it was green ? Somebody was color blind?
What stores in the Portland area sold things in green paper bags? Hardware store?
My sources tell me it was an air sickness bag.
I would think the stews would of pointed that out?
It was from a competing airline. They may not have recognized it.
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I looked up vintage air sickness bags.....only one green one....
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I looked up vintage air sickness bags.....only one green one....
Oh my...didn't Kenny take regular flights to Zimbabwe? ;)
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I looked up vintage air sickness bags.....only one green one....
Oh my...didn't Kenny take regular flights to Zimbabwe? ;)
I believe so, he went there once a month for his toupee tuneup ;D ;D ;D
When I seen him there he was having trouble with getting on the carnival rides. (height requirement)
Word has it Dawn Androsko slipped the carnie a few 20's to get him on the rides :D :D
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I looked up vintage air sickness bags.....only one green one....
Good find! ::)
a nice pleasant place - right plane at right time in right place ! :) :) :) :)
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I looked up vintage air sickness bags.....only one green one....
Oh my...didn't Kenny take regular flights to Zimbabwe? ;)
I believe so, he went there once a month for his toupee tuneup ;D ;D ;D
When I seen him there he was having trouble with getting on the carnival rides. (height requirement)
Word has it Dawn Androsko slipped the carnie a few 20's to get him on the rides :D :D
My guess is Kenny would turn over in his grave if he knew what is going on today, in his name!
And/Or sue the living shit out of ______[redacted]_____.
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I looked up vintage air sickness bags.....only one green one....
"Small brown paper bag" has been a basic constituent of the DB Cooper story - forever! If the bag was "green" instead of "brown", where did the myth get started? Was there no brown paper bag? Was the bag always green? It's contradictions like this that sometimes make we wonder if anything in the DB Cooper story is the truth?
Is there any mention of this contradiction in GG's book? Along with wavy-marcelled hair and russet coat you would think GG would have mentioned "green paper bag" also? Apparently Gray decided to pass that by, for editorial reasons? Maybe it was just to disruptive of myth building to touch!? Since the main goal seems to be mythology vs truth? Maybe "green paper bag" doesn't fit the social media Cooper ideology? Maybe ideology is what this is all about!? Or something even more crucially evil that that???
Maybe Cooper is just non-refundable, like the mattress you buy, it gets delivered, it doesn't fit the bed!, they take it back saying "no problemo", and the store manager announces 15 minutes later - "It's non refundable we only give store credit!". Screwed again.
Green paper bag. Screwed again! Nonrefundable! Only store credit at the Cooper store! Buy the next revised-revised version ... previous purchases nonrefundable! We only give credit for your next purchase. YOU MUST PURCHASE! BE AMERICAN!
???
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"Small brown paper bag" has been a basic constituent of the DB Cooper story - forever!
I think it boils down to who originally gave the information...Carr states "a small paper bag" this could be enough to set off the "brown paper bag" myth. that's what everyone will automatically think of ?
Sluggo posted an article about the paper sack. the article goes back to 1976...I can't download the aerticle. Chrome says it's a dangerous file...I haven't been able to get around it yet...
the post can be found here on the DZ..
http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Skydiving_History_%26_Trivia_F21/DB_Cooper_P3110098-687
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"Small brown paper bag" has been a basic constituent of the DB Cooper story - forever!
I think it boils down to who originally gave the information...Carr states "a small paper bag" this could be enough to set off the "brown paper bag" myth. that's what everyone will automatically think of ?
Sluggo posted an article about the paper sack. the article goes back to 1976...I can't download the aerticle. Chrome says it's a dangerous file...I haven't been able to get around it yet...
the post can be found here on the DZ..
http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Skydiving_History_%26_Trivia_F21/DB_Cooper_P3110098-687
Nice tracking work. The story has been around for years. Jo made quite an issue of the 'brown paper bag' - claimed Duane threw a 'brown paper bag' from their glove compartment into the Columbia, after which of course the Tina Bar money find occurred.
Brown paper bag is a serviceable allegory! Funny. :) :)
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"Small brown paper bag" has been a basic constituent of the DB Cooper story - forever!
I think it boils down to who originally gave the information...Carr states "a small paper bag" this could be enough to set off the "brown paper bag" myth. that's what everyone will automatically think of ?
Sluggo posted an article about the paper sack. the article goes back to 1976...I can't download the aerticle. Chrome says it's a dangerous file...I haven't been able to get around it yet...
the post can be found here on the DZ..
http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Skydiving_History_%26_Trivia_F21/DB_Cooper_P3110098-687
It appears to me that "brown" may have been inadvertently added to "small paper bag" somewhere along the line. It looks like the "green bag" made its first appearance after the Cooper suspect exited the lavatory? Maybe he kept it in his raincoat pocket or briefcase? It could be something as innocuous as a couple packs of cigarettes, or a sandwich, or some candy.
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"Small brown paper bag" has been a basic constituent of the DB Cooper story - forever!
I think it boils down to who originally gave the information...Carr states "a small paper bag" this could be enough to set off the "brown paper bag" myth. that's what everyone will automatically think of ?
Sluggo posted an article about the paper sack. the article goes back to 1976...I can't download the aerticle. Chrome says it's a dangerous file...I haven't been able to get around it yet...
the post can be found here on the DZ..
http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Skydiving_History_%26_Trivia_F21/DB_Cooper_P3110098-687
It appears to me that "brown" may have been inadvertently added to "small paper bag" somewhere along the line. It looks like the "green bag" made its first appearance after the Cooper suspect exited the lavatory? Maybe he kept it in his raincoat pocket or briefcase? It could be something as innocuous as a couple packs of cigarettes, or a sandwich, or some candy.
There is probably some FBI report somewhere that details their search for the source of the 'green paper bag'. Wonder if there was any writing on (or inside) the bag? ;)
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377 cruising among the clouds last Saturday.
https://sites.google.com/site/af6imcloudcrusing/
See my radio gear packs on my chest and leg? Big enough for 200K in twenties? I am getting good at jumping with asymmetrical loads. Not so hard if you anticipate the correction needed to avoid instability.
https://sites.google.com/site/af6imworkingqsos/
Worked Japan on my DSTAR radio, but it uses internet linked repeaters. Snow and G would say that doesn't count, and they'd be kinda right.
I think about DB Cooper on nearly every jump. Who was he, is he still alive? I could see the Santa Rosa area from 14,500 ft and wondered about Sheridan.
I LOVE skydiving. Hard to find a higher thrill for only $24. Maybe $24 worth of crack would produce a bigger rush but I'm just too chicken.
Marla's LD story has CB walkie talkies involved so of course I like that aspect. I think the CB radios of 1971 could have proved useful in a Cooper ground man rendezvous. There is just no credible evidence to support my Norjack radio fantasy.
377
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377 cruising among the clouds last Saturday.
https://sites.google.com/site/af6imcloudcrusing/
See my radio gear packs on my chest and leg? Big enough for 200K in twenties? I am getting good at jumping with asymmetrical loads. Not so hard if you anticipate the correction needed to avoid instability.
https://sites.google.com/site/af6imworkingqsos/
Worked Japan on my DSTAR radio, but it uses internet linked repeaters. Snow and G would say that doesn't count, and they'd be kinda right.
I think about DB Cooper on nearly every jump. Who was he, is he still alive? I could see the Santa Rosa area from 14,500 ft and wondered about Sheridan.
I LOVE skydiving. Hard to find a higher thrill for only $24. Maybe $24 worth of crack would produce a bigger rush but I'm just too chicken.
Marla's LD story has CB walkie talkies involved so of course I like that aspect. I think the CB radios of 1971 could have proved useful in a Cooper ground man rendezvous. There is just no credible evidence to support my Norjack radio fantasy.
377
Very cool!
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Sutter Just want to mention that 377 told me that when a parachute is open it provides a protection from the rain like an umbrella. So DB was only exposed to the rain when at his start of his jump and once the chute opened, he was protected. It was about 5 minutes and then he was on the ground or in the trees. Therefore, DB did not suffer from exposure very long even though he was dressed in his suit and raincoat. The freezing to death was part of the Cossey story of why DB did not survive that he told the FBI. Why would he make up such a story? Was it to throw the FBI off and not to look for DB suspects? Well, the FBI were smart enough to check out their suspects in the first year following Norjak and that is when they visited my home and asking about Sheridan Peterson (because of his three years experience as a USFS Smoke Jumper. When they visited my home and asked about Sheridan, it dawned on me all the things he did and we talked about while he lived at my home for a month. I knew then that Sheridan was DB and told the FBI that he was DB and they said "yes he has one of their suspects". How smart the FBI were to be so close to finding DB on the first year following Norjak but they were unable to put 2 and 2 together however they did send two female agents to get DNA samples from Sheridan. I believe DNA will be the solution to solving the crime but thee FBI needs to get going and think outside the box.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Sutter Just want to mention that 377 told me that when a parachute is open it provides a protection from the rain like an umbrella. So DB was only exposed to the rain when at his start of his jump and once the chute opened, he was protected. It was about 5 minutes and then he was on the ground or in the trees. Therefore, DB did not suffer from exposure very long even though he was dressed in his suit and raincoat. The freezing to death was part of the Cossey story of why DB did not survive that he told the FBI. Why would he make up such a story? Was it to throw the FBI off and not to look for DB suspects? Well, the FBI were smart enough to check out their suspects in the first year following Norjak and that is when they visited my home and asking about Sheridan Peterson (because of his three years experience as a USFS Smoke Jumper. When they visited my home and asked about Sheridan, it dawned on me all the things he did and we talked about while he lived at my home for a month. I knew then that Sheridan was DB and told the FBI that he was DB and they said "yes he has one of their suspects". How smart the FBI were to be so close to finding DB on the first year following Norjak but they were unable to put 2 and 2 together however they did send two female agents to get DNA samples from Sheridan. I believe DNA will be the solution to solving the crime but thee FBI needs to get going and think outside the box.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Bob, is it your contention that Cossey was involved in Norjack, or at least knew that it was Peterson that did it?
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Parrotheadvol Yes because the way he ended our last phone call when I asked at the end of the call if he knew Sharidon. He gasped and sounded like he just swallled a frog when he said no he never heard of him and Sheridan had brought the Boeing Skydiving Club to Issaquah Sky Sports where Cossey worked as a rigger and instructor. They had to know eachother. Cossey then canciled our lunch date and wanted nothing to do with me after that. I know they must have known each other and spent hours together at Issaquah. Cossey would have been a good partner and launderer of the loot at the casinos he frequented. I think Cossey even held the $200K in his investment plan. Could it be that Sharidan visited Cossey when the money ran out and an eyeball to eyeball talk was necessary but the death was accidental and part of a rage at the end?
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Parrotheadvol Yes because the way he ended our last phone call when I asked at the end of the call if he knew Sharidon. He gasped and sounded like he just swallled a frog when he said no he never heard of him and Sheridan had brought the Boeing Skydiving Club to Issaquah Sky Sports where Cossey worked as a rigger and instructor. They had to know eachother. Cossey then canciled our lunch date and wanted nothing to do with me after that. I know they must have known each other and spent hours together at Issaquah. Cossey would have been a good partner and launderer of the loot at the casinos he frequented. I think Cossey even held the $200K in his investment plan. Could it be that Sharidan visited Cossey when the money ran out and an eyeball to eyeball talk was necessary but the death was accidental and part of a rage at the end?
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Two questions then:
1. You seem to think that Peterson made it out with the money, so I'm assuming that you think the Tena Bar find was a plant?
2. God forgive me for asking this one, but if Cossey was involved (hypothetically speaking of course), or at least knew who Cooper was, does this bring the Amboy chute back into question?
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Parrotheadvol Yes because the way he ended our last phone call when I asked at the end of the call if he knew Sharidon. He gasped and sounded like he just swallled a frog when he said no he never heard of him and Sheridan had brought the Boeing Skydiving Club to Issaquah Sky Sports where Cossey worked as a rigger and instructor. They had to know eachother. Cossey then canciled our lunch date and wanted nothing to do with me after that. I know they must have known each other and spent hours together at Issaquah. Cossey would have been a good partner and launderer of the loot at the casinos he frequented. I think Cossey even held the $200K in his investment plan. Could it be that Sharidan visited Cossey when the money ran out and an eyeball to eyeball talk was necessary but the death was accidental and part of a rage at the end?
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Two questions then:
1. You seem to think that Peterson made it out with the money, so I'm assuming that you think the Tena Bar find was a plant?
2. God forgive me for asking this one, but if Cossey was involved (hypothetically speaking of course), or at least knew who Cooper was, does this bring the Amboy chute back into question?
The Amboy chute is silk. The Cooper chutes were nylon. That fact does not depend exclusively on Cossey. So the Amboy chute has nothing to do with some speculation about Cossey's involvement or noninvolvement ... or the dna of wood ducks and panthers either!
8)
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CRAF: Civil Reserve Air Fleet. Govt paid Pan Am and NWA a subsidy to add reinforced cargo floors to their 747s so that they could be used as wartime freighters.
https://books.google.com/books?id=s5EZwCfUrXIC&pg=PA354&lpg=PA354&dq=747+cargo+floor+subsiody+pan+am&source=bl&ots=lnITfDjYBD&sig=zIfBIANsEc2qZcCdMibcgIqxX2A&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAWoVChMIn6Gtv_fWyAIVQedjCh39oQ1h#v=onepage&q=747%20cargo%20floor%20subsiody%20pan%20am&f=false
Likely a similar program was used to pay Boeing to do the airdop config flight testing on the 727. CIA? DOD? Anyone find any info on what govt agency funded this test program?
I've always assumed Cooper knew about the tests, but might he have learned about them through the program funding source rather than working at Boeing or hearing about the SAT 727 airdrop tests in Thailand?
Just thinking...
377
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Parrotheadvol: You say:
1. You seem to think that Peterson made it out with the money, so I'm assuming that you think the Tena Bar find was a plant?
2. God forgive me for asking this one, but if Cossey was involved (hypothetically speaking of course), or at least knew who Cooper was, does this bring the Amboy chute back into question?
I say: "the Tina Bar money was most likely the three packs of $20 offered to the Flight Crew but refused and DB then stashed the three packs into the paper bag he brought on-board and then DB shoved the bag into his shirt. The bag blew out of DB's shirt and floated down to end up at Tina's Bar."
The Amboy chute was made from the wrong material to be the DB chute (note to two photo's) Georger has it correct.
I can not attach my two photo's as they are over 200KB but the DB Chute is rip-stop and the Amboy is not.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Parrotheadvol: You say:
1. You seem to think that Peterson made it out with the money, so I'm assuming that you think the Tena Bar find was a plant?
2. God forgive me for asking this one, but if Cossey was involved (hypothetically speaking of course), or at least knew who Cooper was, does this bring the Amboy chute back into question?
I say: "the Tina Bar money was most likely the three packs of $20 offered to the Flight Crew but refused and DB then stashed the three packs into the paper bag he brought on-board and then DB shoved the bag into his shirt. The bag blew out of DB's shirt and floated down to end up at Tina's Bar."
The Amboy chute was made from the wrong material to be the DB chute (note to two photo's) Georger has it correct.
I can not attach my two photo's as they are over 200KB but the DB Chute is rip-stop and the Amboy is not.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Sail you have a basic fact wrong. Cooper DID NOT offer anyone "THREE BUNDOLAS" - or tres mures either.
That myth seems to never die .... in the hands of MOTIVATED SALESMEN. ! :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
Read the thread and catch up please. 2016 is coming fast.
I actually took time out of my day to post this! My bill is in the mail!
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Georger: You say "Read the thread and catch up please. 2016 is coming fast."
I suggest you reread the thread as that is where I read about the three bundles being offered and refused and quit being so negative and refresh your memory. Maybe Bruce or Mark can verify where the three bundle story came from?
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Georger: You say "Read the thread and catch up please. 2016 is coming fast."
I suggest you reread the thread as that is where I read about the three bundles being offered and refused and quit being so negative and refresh your memory. Maybe Bruce or Mark can verify where the three bundle story came from?
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Funny. Well... one place the "story/myth" is coming from .... is you!
Care to present your sources? ::) I mean why ask 377 or Bruce or Blevins or Gray Mushroom to 'verify' a claim "you" are making-using? Since you claim it is "common knowledge and true" just direct us over to where the claim is made and documented. That should be easy? And while we are at it: how many fingers & toes did DB Cooper have? God only knows what facts of Life are lurking there I missed also? (Cooper had three tongues?) ???
La tres bundolas, la tres bundolas
Ya no puede caminar.
Porque no tiene, porque le falta,
Dinero para gastar.
Una cucaracha pinta,
Le dijo a una colorada,
"Vamonos para mi tierra,
A pasar la temporada"
:)
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in an attempt at being humorous, stated to the hijacker while the passengers where unloading that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and she wondered if she could have some. the hijacker immediately agreed with her suggestion and took ONE PACKAGE of the money and handed it to her
I believe since 3 bundles are widely noted that were found on Tina bar, and 3 stews on the plane the myth was born from these events...
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in an attempt at being humorous, stated to the hijacker while the passengers where unloading that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and she wondered if she could have some. the hijacker immediately agreed with her suggestion and took ONE PACKAGE of the money and handed it to her
I believe since 3 bundles are widely noted that were found on Tina bar, and 3 stews on the plane the myth was born from these events...
None of the stews testified Cooper tried to give them 3 bundolas. I will go back and look. I could be wrong but one of the stews "may have" (stress MAY HAVE!!!!!) said Cooper pulled out 'one package' of money and offered bills from it ... to the stews. Again, this is such OLD NEWS ... but the files needed to answer the question are right here in Shutter's Vault, I think.
An approximate figure of $5800 was attached by some news person/FBI spokesperson to the Ingram find. That is an APPROXIMATE figure, not an actual count because given the condx of the bills no actual count of individual bills ie. serial numbers was possible.
Until Bobby Blevins bulldozed his way into Cooperland NOBODY used "3 bundolas" as a literal fact. That was Blevins' invention/contribution into the social media. I told Blevins very early when he appeared that he lacked basic math skills - in counting - !
:)
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I just re-watched "The Hijacker that Got Away", and it mentions Carr found profiles of Raleigh Cigarette smokers and Bourbon/7 Up drinkers. Were these ever released or did anyone publish them anywhere?
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I just re-watched "The Hijacker that Got Away", and it mentions Carr found profiles of Raleigh Cigarette smokers and Bourbon/7 Up drinkers. Were these ever released or did anyone publish them anywhere?
I believe they also show Cooper filling out the ticket....also false.
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I've liked our survey on the money find at T-Bar, and we seem basically spilt between dredge and nature.
How about parachutes? Can we do a survey on what parachute we think DB Cooper used?
1. NB-8, as per the "Common Understanding"?
2. NB-6, stuffed with a 28-foot canopy as per FBI docs provided by Ckret
3. Pioneer, with 26-foot Steinthaul, as per Norman
4. Pioneer, with unknown canopy, as per interpretation of Cossey's statements
5. Paracommmander, as per Sluggo?
6. Paradise, with unknown canopy, as per Earl Cossey's initial statements to me?
Bonus Question: Does anyone think DB Cooper used the reserve chute not found aboard 305 in Reno?
I'm voting #3, with a No on the "front" chute.
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7) one that didn't open :D :D :D :D
Three shows a nite....two drink minimum :P
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7) one that didn't open :D :D :D :D
I'll go with Shutter on number 7.
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7) one that didn't open :D :D :D :D
I'll go with Shutter on number 7.
;D
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Youse guys are jumping ahead with your answers. What chute didn't open, then.
Shut- after moderating this forum for a couple years, you think you have enough material for three shows a night? Maybe you're right!
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I've liked our survey on the money find at T-Bar, and we seem basically spilt between dredge and nature.
How about parachutes? Can we do a survey on what parachute we think DB Cooper used?
1. NB-8, as per the "Common Understanding"?
2. NB-6, stuffed with a 28-foot canopy as per FBI docs provided by Ckret
3. Pioneer, with 26-foot Steinthaul, as per Norman
4. Pioneer, with unknown canopy, as per interpretation of Cossey's statements
5. Paracommmander, as per Sluggo?
6. Paradise, with unknown canopy, as per Earl Cossey's initial statements to me?
Bonus Question: Does anyone think DB Cooper used the reserve chute not found aboard 305 in Reno?
I'm voting #3, with a No on the "front" chute.
Extra bonus: hasn't this all been discussed before? Including discussed based on your own research? Did you forget what you said/did before? Wasn't this all discussed before based on your articles/research ? I fail to see what all of your re-iterations or previous iterations of the iterations before that ... accomplishes? Unless of course it's total confusion you are seeking/making? This has come to have all the trappings of a historical hysteria? :D The purpose of this is? (revisions to your book? revisions to revisions of your book? a new book? ? )
Will this ever end? ;) ;) ;)
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Youse guys are jumping ahead with your answers. What chute didn't open, then.
Shut- after moderating this forum for a couple years, you think you have enough material for three shows a night? Maybe you're right!
Vegas is calling....I'll get back at ya... 8)
What chute didn't open
The one on his back.... :P
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At this point in time I don't think it would matter if he had a golden chute. we don't know one way or the other if he made it.
No proof on the ground....so, he made it?
No proof of any kind to surface, as in the note, clothing, a chute, money, other than Tina Bar....so, he died?
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NB8 with 28 ft C9 surplus canopy.
377
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NB8 with 28 ft C9 surplus canopy.
377
That has been consistent, has it not, through all permutations, iterations, interviews, testimonials by whoever, discoveries, ... and all crop circle formations ? Yes? No ?
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I've liked our survey on the money find at T-Bar, and we seem basically spilt between dredge and nature.
How about parachutes? Can we do a survey on what parachute we think DB Cooper used?
1. NB-8, as per the "Common Understanding"?
2. NB-6, stuffed with a 28-foot canopy as per FBI docs provided by Ckret
3. Pioneer, with 26-foot Steinthaul, as per Norman
4. Pioneer, with unknown canopy, as per interpretation of Cossey's statements
5. Paracommmander, as per Sluggo?
6. Paradise, with unknown canopy, as per Earl Cossey's initial statements to me?
Bonus Question: Does anyone think DB Cooper used the reserve chute not found aboard 305 in Reno?
I'm voting #3, with a No on the "front" chute.
Extra bonus: hasn't this all been discussed before? Including discussed based on your own research? Did you forget what you said/did before? Wasn't this all discussed before based on your articles/research ? I fail to see what all of your re-iterations or previous iterations of the iterations before that ... accomplishes? Unless of course it's total confusion you are seeking/making? This has come to have all the trappings of a historical hysteria? :D The purpose of this is? (revisions to your book? revisions to revisions of your book? a new book? ? )
Will this ever end? ;) ;) ;)
We can end it as soon as you vote, Georger.
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I've liked our survey on the money find at T-Bar, and we seem basically spilt between dredge and nature.
How about parachutes? Can we do a survey on what parachute we think DB Cooper used?
1. NB-8, as per the "Common Understanding"?
2. NB-6, stuffed with a 28-foot canopy as per FBI docs provided by Ckret
3. Pioneer, with 26-foot Steinthaul, as per Norman
4. Pioneer, with unknown canopy, as per interpretation of Cossey's statements
5. Paracommmander, as per Sluggo?
6. Paradise, with unknown canopy, as per Earl Cossey's initial statements to me?
Bonus Question: Does anyone think DB Cooper used the reserve chute not found aboard 305 in Reno?
I'm voting #3, with a No on the "front" chute.
Extra bonus: hasn't this all been discussed before? Including discussed based on your own research? Did you forget what you said/did before? Wasn't this all discussed before based on your articles/research ? I fail to see what all of your re-iterations or previous iterations of the iterations before that ... accomplishes? Unless of course it's total confusion you are seeking/making? This has come to have all the trappings of a historical hysteria? :D The purpose of this is? (revisions to your book? revisions to revisions of your book? a new book? ? )
Will this ever end? ;) ;) ;)
We can end it as soon as you vote, Georger.
377 and I both voted above! :)
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I'm biased though since I own an NB 8 with a C9. It might be worth slightly more if it's a DBC model rig. It's the rig I brought to the Portland symposium. The one that a non jumper had a very difficult time donning. Finding the packing card quickly proved impossible.
Good rig. Great canopy. The C9 is super tough.
377
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Bruce: You say: "Bonus Question: Does anyone think DB Cooper used the reserve chute not found aboard 305 in Reno?"
I think he took the "Front Chute" to climb down from the trees in case he landed in the trees. Old Smoke Jumper trick and Sheriddan must have seen that Front Chute with the big "X" on it many time at Issaquah when he took the Boeing Skydiving Club there for training. He knew
what he was doing and did not need the "X" chute for anything but climbing out of the trees.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Neither of the main rigs had D Rings for attaching a reserve. How do you think he fastened the reserve chute if he took it?
You are right, using a reserve to lower yourself from a tree landing is taught to smoke jumpers.
In my skydiver training they advised us to just wait until help arrived if we landed in a tree, that trying to go down your deployed reserve lines could end up in a bad fall.
377
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Neither of the main rigs had D Rings for attaching a reserve. How do you think he fastened the reserve chute if he took it?
You are right, using a reserve to lower yourself from a tree landing is taught to smoke jumpers.
In my skydiver training they advised us to just wait until help arrived if we landed in a tree, that trying to go down your deployed reserve lines could end up in a bad fall.
377
That was an option if he could attach it. But of course there is no way to prove that is what he did - unless you found both chutes together in the same place, which has never happened. And if that is what happened (if the chutes had been found together) that would nail a 'north of Portland' drop point! And that would mean real problems for any natural explanation for the money find!
People have searched and searched for these chutes. The Amboy chute is the only chute to surface. And trust problems with Cossey are now on the table. The hell of this is: telling the difference btwn silk and nylon is child's play (anyone can do it!) so typing the Amboy chute as silk may have been done irrespective of any input from Cossey.
Nothing is easy in this case!
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If the riser attachment fittings are still on the Amboy chute risers they could tell us a lot about what kind of rig it may have been attached to.
I don't think it was Cooper's chute but I haven't seen it up close, just photos and descriptions. Looks like twill material to me and therefore unlikely to have been used in a 1971 setting as an FAA legal emergency chute. Trusting your life to twill when good ripstop C-9s were available dirt cheap would have been insane. Airworthy C 9s were super cheap back then. I saw a bunch of them (looked like about 100 canopies) for $25 each, in perfect condition with lines and risers, at a University of Calif surplus sale in Richmond CA in the early 70s. I have no idea what UC was doing with them. Normal C-9 pricing back then was between $75 and $150 depending on who was selling them
Cossey was a joker about Norjack chutes, so you can't take everything he said as a fact. Bruce doesn't think you can take ANYTHING Cossey said as a fact.
377
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If the riser attachment fittings are still on the Amboy chute risers they could tell us a lot about what kind of rig it may have been attached to.
I don't think it was Cooper's chute but I haven't seen it up close, just photos and descriptions. Looks like twill material to me and therefore unlikely to have been used in a 1971 setting as an FAA legal emergency chute. Trusting your life to twill when good ripstop C-9s were available dirt cheap would have been insane. Airworthy C 9s were super cheap back then. I saw a bunch of them (looked like about 100 canopies) for $25 each, in perfect condition with lines and risers, at a University of Calif surplus sale in Richmond CA in the early 70s. I have no idea what UC was doing with them. Normal C-9 pricing back then was between $75 and $150 depending on who was selling them
Cossey was a joker about Norjack chutes, so you can't take everything he said as a fact. Bruce doesn't think you can take ANYTHING Cossey said as a fact.
377
Bruce seems to want to throw the baby out with the bath water ?
Cossey was not the black or white figure some are trying to paint him; that seems apparent by the record of his life and the respect a lot of people had for him, coming from many walks of life.
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377 You say: "NB8 with 28 ft C9 surplus canopy."
That is my vote Too! based upon Norm Haden's description of the chute he provided. Or DB could have cut four one ft chunks of parachute cord to tie the "front" chute on to the NB8 carrier that he used.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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377 You say: "NB8 with 28 ft C9 surplus canopy."
That is my vote Too! based upon Norm Haden's description of the chute he provided. Or DB could have cut four one ft chunks of parachute cord to tie the "front" chute on to the NB8 carrier that he used.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
My God! Three of us agree about something!
:)
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Sail, when did Norm tell you he supplied an NB-8? He told me he provided two identical Pioneers with 26' Steinthauls.
377 - so you're going with Cossey and his NB-8 scenario?
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[ Bruce doesn't think you can take ANYTHING Cossey said as a fact.
377
****
Bruce seems to want to throw the baby out with the bath water ?
Not exactly. I want to dive into the bath water with Cossey and find out who is adding the soap.
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Bruce doesn't think you can take ANYTHING Cossey said as a fact.
377
Pretty much. You?
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Cossey really was a parachute expert, but you often had no way to know whether he was BSing or telling the truth... so he is what we lawyers refer to as an unreliable witness.
Bruce, how about querying Norman whether he used pure titanium in his machine shop and whether he also used bismuth (sometimes contained in machining lubricants). Ask him if his chutes may have been exposed to these metals (either by being in proximity to the shop or by his handling of them after being in the shop). Also ask about turned aluminum shavings. Show him TK's tie findings and ask if those materials might have been used in his shop. If the tie was Coopers and it got these metals from Norman's rigs we cant assume anything about Coopers use of these materials in his work.
377
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377 You say: "Bruce, how about querying Norman whether he used pure titanium in his machine shop and whether he also used bismuth (sometimes contained in machining lubricants)."
I say all the things found on DB's tie were available from the Scrap Tub Skids around the outside of the M & P Lab (Materials and Processing Lab) just below Sheridan's Office 2nd floor of the 9-101 Building at Boeing. That is where DB/Sheridan would have picked up the things found on the DB tie. Looking into the tub skids, his tie would have fallen into scrap (as did mine) and picked-up all that was found on the tie. This would have been the only place at Boeing where all the things would have been found and in the N.W. too! The things on the DB tie all point directly at where Sheridan worked at Boeing. End of the story and is very good evidence in my mind.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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377 You say: "Bruce, how about querying Norman whether he used pure titanium in his machine shop and whether he also used bismuth (sometimes contained in machining lubricants)."
I say all the things found on DB's tie were available from the Scrap Tub Skids around the outside of the M & P Lab (Materials and Processing Lab) just below Sheridan's Office 2nd floor of the 9-101 Building at Boeing. That is where DB/Sheridan would have picked up the things found on the DB tie. Looking into the tub skids, his tie would have fallen into scrap (as did mine) and picked-up all that was found on the tie. This would have been the only place at Boeing where all the things would have been found and in the N.W. too! The things on the DB tie all point directly at where Sheridan worked at Boeing. End of the story and is very good evidence in my mind.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Will there be a Peterson Revival at the Auburn Theatre this year?
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377 You say: "Bruce, how about querying Norman whether he used pure titanium in his machine shop and whether he also used bismuth (sometimes contained in machining lubricants)."
I say all the things found on DB's tie were available from the Scrap Tub Skids around the outside of the M & P Lab (Materials and Processing Lab) just below Sheridan's Office 2nd floor of the 9-101 Building at Boeing. That is where DB/Sheridan would have picked up the things found on the DB tie. Looking into the tub skids, his tie would have fallen into scrap (as did mine) and picked-up all that was found on the tie. This would have been the only place at Boeing where all the things would have been found and in the N.W. too! The things on the DB tie all point directly at where Sheridan worked at Boeing. End of the story and is very good evidence in my mind.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
If you still have those ties, I'm sure Tom Kaye would be willing to see just what kind of material got on them as a comparison.
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Really good point Andrade1812!!
Sailshaw, most engineers don't throw out their long out-of-fashion ties. How do I know? I still have a bunch of those old 60s and early 70s skinny ties myself as do many of my EE friends. Surely you must have a couple that dipped into the Boeing scrap bins. Lets get them analysed.
If their metal load matches that found on Cooper's alleged tie, I'd say Sheridan Peterson has some serious splaining to do.
377
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Oh, no, not those skinny ties from the 60s. I'm starting to have flash backs to my ol' Catholic Boys School, Chaminade.
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Will there be a Peterson Revival at the Auburn Theatre this year?
No.
The festivities will be held at the Seattle Yacht Club. Details to follow...
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No 3 Bundolas:
Contrary to all the made up stuff from Blevins, there were no "3 Bundolas" offered Mucklow! It never happened
Mucklow is very specific in her interview. (Interview 11-30 Mucklow (Campbell files)). Quote:
When she received the bag containing the money on the ground) She took the bag containing the money back to seat 18-E where the hijacker was seated.
He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package. Having inspected the money in a cursory fashion the hijacker stated that “it looks ok” and then indicated to Mucklow that the crew could now let the passengers deplane. She stated that she called the cockpit on the intercom with this message and an announcement was made from the cockpit that passengers could disembark.
Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and (he) reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her! Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect.
In a similar vein Mucklow recalls that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket (change from a $20 he was given earlier for a drink he had purchased) and attempted to (give the bills back) to tip the girls on the crew. (He was told then they could not accept tips). So again, they declined in compliance with company policy.
So, the Ingram find of "$5800approx being called 3 Bundolas" has nothing to do with money offered Mucklow - she was only offered one "package" of money, by her own testimony.
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No 3 Bundolas:
Contrary to all the made up stuff from Blevins, there were no "3 Bundolas" offered Mucklow! It never happened
Mucklow is very specific in her interview. (Interview 11-30 Mucklow (Campbell files)). Quote:
When she received the bag containing the money on the ground) She took the bag containing the money back to seat 18-E where the hijacker was seated.
He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package. Having inspected the money in a cursory fashion the hijacker stated that “it looks ok” and then indicated to Mucklow that the crew could now let the passengers deplane. She stated that she called the cockpit on the intercom with this message and an announcement was made from the cockpit that passengers could disembark.
Mucklow recalls that at this time while the passengers were unloading, in an attempt at being humorous, she suggested to the hijacker ‘that there was obviously a lot of money in the bag and could she have some’! The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and (he) reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her! Mucklow states that she laughed and gave the money back to the hijacker stating ‘she was not permitted to accept gratuities’, or words to that effect.
In a similar vein Mucklow recalls that at one time during the flight the hijacker had pulled some single bills from his pocket (change from a $20 he was given earlier for a drink he had purchased) and attempted to (give the bills back) to tip the girls on the crew. (He was told then they could not accept tips). So again, they declined in compliance with company policy.
So, the Ingram find of "$5800approx being called 3 Bundolas" has nothing to do with money offered Mucklow - she was only offered one "package" of money, by her own testimony.
I doubt if it requires a leap of faith to assume that the ONE bundle of money Cooper removed from the bag, in order to offer it to Tina, was then immediately replaced in the money bag or Tina would have noticed and stated otherwise.
And it is probably a safe assumption to say that the money bundles and money fragments arrived at Tina Bar as a result of the same natural event and at very nearly the same time (minutes, hours?) and not over an extended period of time (days?) as a result of multiple natural events.
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It's hard to say how many bundles were actually there since they had different amounts in each bundle. plus, we have extra serial numbers found in the mix with the Ingram's pot.
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The stairs....
Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..
Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?
"Conceivably a 727 with a cargo track like system installed on its floor could carry multiple types of air to ground munitions, which could be rolled onto the main guide track that terminates at the rear air-stair opening after being programmed for release."
There are 2 control handles for the airstairs on a B727, one under a panel on the lower fuselage right beside the stair forward hinge point, and one at the top of the stairs behind a panel on the left side which can only be accessed when the rear cabin door is open. Because the cabin door can only be opened when the aircraft is unpressurized, this usually would prevent its actuation in flight. However, after the D B Cooper hijacking a device was added referred to as an anti-hijack vane that would swing over when the aircraft was in flight and prevent the door opening. To close the door either an electric hydraulic pump has to be turned on in the cockpit, or a hand pump beside the lower control operated while either handle is held to the close position. The door will free fall open without hydraulic pressure, but the support arms may have to be pushed to an overcenter position.
Source(s):
B727 AMM.
Endorsement course for B727
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If I'm right, the lever for opening the stairs seems to be covered. it's normally right above the railing on the left side. in the photo you can see a guy with his hand on the railing, but I don't see the box for the releasing of the stairs?
In the conversion they take out the stairs and put down sheet metal on the existing part of the stairs that are permanent. it appears they put sheet metal all around the interior of the stairway.
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It's hard to say how many bundles were actually there since they had different amounts in each bundle. plus, we have extra serial numbers found in the mix with the Ingram's pot.
Plus, we can't clarify where in the Ingram bundles the remnants of rubber bands were spotted. That makes it impossible to establish what of the Ingram find were bundles, or remnants of bundles. The Ingrams didn't keep track of such details. We just know that somewhere in the total mass of decayed bills the Ingrams noted what looked like rubber band fragments which "turned to dust upon touching".
The estimate of 3 bundolas comes from the Carr statement there was approx $2000 per bundle, which later turned out to be wrong. Since $5800 was identified thats roughly 3 bundolas - later the bank employee said each bundle was something between $1000 to $2000 each, so there is no way to certify how many bundles the Ingram find represents !
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Following this post I will be reducing my time devoted to the DB Cooper Social Media Vortez, in order to let the LOUD VOICES have more space and time in the Cooper social media dump. So "Cooper celebs" you have the crop circle - it's yours@!
Bye for now.
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The stairs....
Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..
Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?
In all probability, the modified 727s had more powerful hydraulic pumps for both lowering and raising the stairs in flight. Perhaps there was a switch on the flight engineer's panel to energize those pumps. And the control panel for the stairs would be entirely different and perhaps have the ability to lock the stairs at intermediate points as they were lowered. This could be the reason Cooper was not familiar with the civilian version of the stairs control panel and had trouble with it even after Tina explained it to him. This matter has been discussed at some length elsewhere over the years.
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The stairs....
Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..
Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?
In all probability, the modified 727s had more powerful hydraulic pumps for both lowering and raising the stairs in flight. Perhaps there was a switch on the flight engineer's panel to energize those pumps. And the control panel for the stairs would be entirely different and perhaps have the ability to lock the stairs at intermediate points as they were lowered. This could be the reason Cooper was not familiar with the civilian version of the stairs control panel and had trouble with it even after Tina explained it to him. This matter has been discussed at some length elsewhere over the years.
I just realized something I overlooked. the stairs were removed during the drops...
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The stairs....
Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..
Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?
In all probability, the modified 727s had more powerful hydraulic pumps for both lowering and raising the stairs in flight. Perhaps there was a switch on the flight engineer's panel to energize those pumps. And the control panel for the stairs would be entirely different and perhaps have the ability to lock the stairs at intermediate points as they were lowered. This could be the reason Cooper was not familiar with the civilian version of the stairs control panel and had trouble with it even after Tina explained it to him. This matter has been discussed at some length elsewhere over the years.
I just realized something I overlooked. the stairs were removed during the drops...
They were not removed during the FBI tests since you can see them full down in the photos and one of the USAF jumpers walked down to the bottom step.
The steps were apparently removed during the jumps that are shown in the videos that were taken in Southeast Asia.
But it is unlikely that the stairs were removed for the Boeing OGO/military tests. The organization that paid for those tests probably wanted to keep the 727 in a "civilian" configuration during the entire time that they operated it.
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Correct, I was only referring to the jumps/cargo drops in Asia...
Google has a nice aviation flight planner I wasn't aware of. some of you might find this tool worth looking at..you can also calculate with groundspeed.
http://www.iflightplanner.com/AviationCharts/
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Do airports keep logs as far back as 71 to determine what planes were coming in and out, or is that too much data to hold?
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Do airports keep logs as far back as 71 to determine what planes were coming in and out, or is that too much data to hold?
If the airport had a control tower, the tower would probably be the one keeping such a record. Those records would be useful to the airport administration for charging landing fees, etc., but I doubt the records would be available today.
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Do airports keep logs as far back as 71 to determine what planes were coming in and out, or is that too much data to hold?
If the airport had a control tower, the tower would probably be the one keeping such a record. Those records would be useful to the airport administration for charging landing fees, etc., but I doubt the records would be available today.
It would be interesting to know the last 727 leaving Portland prior to Cooper boarding Northwest. he said he "didn't have a grudge against your airline, it was at the right place, and right time"
Could be possible to get a more accurate time of his movement prior to boarding, but I'm guessing the airport had 727's round the clock coming, and going?
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Do airports keep logs as far back as 71 to determine what planes were coming in and out, or is that too much data to hold?
If the airport had a control tower, the tower would probably be the one keeping such a record. Those records would be useful to the airport administration for charging landing fees, etc., but I doubt the records would be available today.
It would be interesting to know the last 727 leaving Portland prior to Cooper boarding Northwest. he said he "didn't have a grudge against your airline, it was at the right place, and right time"
Could be possible to get a more accurate time of his movement prior to boarding, but I'm guessing the airport had 727's round the clock coming, and going?
Cooper was specifically looking for a 727 and he asked the NWA ticket agent if the incoming aircraft was a 727. But in the 1971 era, the airlines had a joint publication that was published ever month or two that listed the airline flights to each city, the equipment used on the routes, the ticket price, the arrival and/or departure times, etc.. So Cooper could have easily checked that publication to determine that a 727 was scheduled for November 24th, 1971.
And my guess is that Cooper only asked the NWA agent about the 727 in order to confirm that his plan was going forward. If the agent had told him that another aircraft had been substituted for the 727 that day, Cooper would probably have just flown to Seattle and gotten off the airplane. Then he probably would have planned the hijacking for another day.
Also, remember that NWA had only started operating 727s between Portland and Seattle a couple of months earlier.
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Do airports keep logs as far back as 71 to determine what planes were coming in and out, or is that too much data to hold?
If the airport had a control tower, the tower would probably be the one keeping such a record. Those records would be useful to the airport administration for charging landing fees, etc., but I doubt the records would be available today.
It would be interesting to know the last 727 leaving Portland prior to Cooper boarding Northwest. he said he "didn't have a grudge against your airline, it was at the right place, and right time"
Could be possible to get a more accurate time of his movement prior to boarding, but I'm guessing the airport had 727's round the clock coming, and going?
The actual quoted statement is:
In response to her query as to why he had chosen a Northwest airplane to hijack, he said ‘he had “a grudge but not against Northwest Airlines” adding ‘that the Northwest plane just happened to be in the right place at the right time’.
-
The stairs....
Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..
Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?
In all probability, the modified 727s had more powerful hydraulic pumps for both lowering and raising the stairs in flight. Perhaps there was a switch on the flight engineer's panel to energize those pumps. And the control panel for the stairs would be entirely different and perhaps have the ability to lock the stairs at intermediate points as they were lowered. This could be the reason Cooper was not familiar with the civilian version of the stairs control panel and had trouble with it even after Tina explained it to him. This matter has been discussed at some length elsewhere over the years.
So which version did 305 have?
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I think they are pretty much the same. the 727 has two Hydraulic systems (A&B)
"B" System
"B" system again contains a single reservoir supplying two electric AC pumps.
It's reservoir is more complicated that system "A" in that it has an
auxiliary reservoir separated by a baffle which is open at the top ("little b"),
this is reserved for alternate extension of the leading edge slats and flaps
using stand by hydraulic power (more about that later).
Each pump is controlled by its individual selection switch; with the switch ON
normal hydraulic output pressure is provided to the system. As in the "A"
system a portion of the fluid is used for cooling and lubrication of the pump but
is returned via a heat exchanger in the no1 fuel tank. if the pressure falls
below the preset level a warning light will illuminate, sensors monitor the fluid
temperature and if activated will bring on an overheat light. A relay in the
overheat sensing circuit will cause the overheat light to go out when the
affected pump is turned off. A simplified view of the system is the same as the
above diagram but with no blocking valve or shut off valve (items 2 & 4).
Fluid Quantity....................Full if system "A" quantity over 2.5 gall
System Pressure............2,800 - 3100 psi (red line @ 3,500)
Baffle level (little B)............1.1 gall
Do not operate a system "B" pump with less than 1,300 lbs in fuel tank No1
Any one hydraulic system "B" pump should not be operated more than 5
times in 5 min's. After this period the pump must be left on for 5 min's or off for
30 min's.
Systems Operated:
Brakes
Inboard Spoilers
Upper Rudder
Aft Airstairs
Ailerons
Elevators
-
The stairs....
Cooper stated in reference to the stairs being deployed prior to takeoff, and the pilot to activate them....
In a low tone, yes they can, but the cockpit can put it down after they are airborne..
Can we find out if the stair release was changed with the military aircraft. is it possible they converted it?
In all probability, the modified 727s had more powerful hydraulic pumps for both lowering and raising the stairs in flight. Perhaps there was a switch on the flight engineer's panel to energize those pumps. And the control panel for the stairs would be entirely different and perhaps have the ability to lock the stairs at intermediate points as they were lowered. This could be the reason Cooper was not familiar with the civilian version of the stairs control panel and had trouble with it even after Tina explained it to him. This matter has been discussed at some length elsewhere over the years.
So which version did 305 have?
The standard production NWA airline version. But check the reply to Shutter below.
-
I think they are pretty much the same. the 727 has two Hydraulic systems (A&B)
"B" System
"B" system again contains a single reservoir supplying two electric AC pumps.
It's reservoir is more complicated that system "A" in that it has an
auxiliary reservoir separated by a baffle which is open at the top ("little b"),
this is reserved for alternate extension of the leading edge slats and flaps
using stand by hydraulic power (more about that later).
Each pump is controlled by its individual selection switch; with the switch ON
normal hydraulic output pressure is provided to the system. As in the "A"
system a portion of the fluid is used for cooling and lubrication of the pump but
is returned via a heat exchanger in the no1 fuel tank. if the pressure falls
below the preset level a warning light will illuminate, sensors monitor the fluid
temperature and if activated will bring on an overheat light. A relay in the
overheat sensing circuit will cause the overheat light to go out when the
affected pump is turned off. A simplified view of the system is the same as the
above diagram but with no blocking valve or shut off valve (items 2 & 4).
Fluid Quantity....................Full if system "A" quantity over 2.5 gall
System Pressure............2,800 - 3100 psi (red line @ 3,500)
Baffle level (little B)............1.1 gall
Do not operate a system "B" pump with less than 1,300 lbs in fuel tank No1
Any one hydraulic system "B" pump should not be operated more than 5
times in 5 min's. After this period the pump must be left on for 5 min's or off for
30 min's.
Systems Operated:
Brakes
Inboard Spoilers
Upper Rudder
Aft Airstairs
Ailerons
Elevators
There is not necessarily just one version of the hydraulic or other systems that applies to all 727s. Differences may exist between specific aircraft for different airlines.
And someone paid Boeing some money to demonstrate that the 727 could fly with the aft stairs down and that cargo and parachutists could be dropped through that stairway while airborne. Modifications would have been made to those stairs and the related systems to accommodate the desires of whoever was paying the money to Boeing.
And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.
-
I think they are pretty much the same. the 727 has two Hydraulic systems (A&B)
"B" System
"B" system again contains a single reservoir supplying two electric AC pumps.
It's reservoir is more complicated that system "A" in that it has an
auxiliary reservoir separated by a baffle which is open at the top ("little b"),
this is reserved for alternate extension of the leading edge slats and flaps
using stand by hydraulic power (more about that later).
Each pump is controlled by its individual selection switch; with the switch ON
normal hydraulic output pressure is provided to the system. As in the "A"
system a portion of the fluid is used for cooling and lubrication of the pump but
is returned via a heat exchanger in the no1 fuel tank. if the pressure falls
below the preset level a warning light will illuminate, sensors monitor the fluid
temperature and if activated will bring on an overheat light. A relay in the
overheat sensing circuit will cause the overheat light to go out when the
affected pump is turned off. A simplified view of the system is the same as the
above diagram but with no blocking valve or shut off valve (items 2 & 4).
Fluid Quantity....................Full if system "A" quantity over 2.5 gall
System Pressure............2,800 - 3100 psi (red line @ 3,500)
Baffle level (little B)............1.1 gall
Do not operate a system "B" pump with less than 1,300 lbs in fuel tank No1
Any one hydraulic system "B" pump should not be operated more than 5
times in 5 min's. After this period the pump must be left on for 5 min's or off for
30 min's.
Systems Operated:
Brakes
Inboard Spoilers
Upper Rudder
Aft Airstairs
Ailerons
Elevators
There is not necessarily just one version of the hydraulic or other systems that applies to all 727s. Differences may exist between specific aircraft for different airlines.
And someone paid Boeing some money to demonstrate that the 727 could fly with the aft stairs down and that cargo and parachutists could be dropped through that stairway while airborne. Modifications would have been made to those stairs and the related systems to accommodate the desires of whoever was paying the money to Boeing.
And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.
And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.
Even to its own members of the Boeing Sky Diving Club, who worked with the NWA & FBI on the case ?
-
How exactly did Don Burnworth get fingered as a Cooper suspect?
-
I think they are pretty much the same. the 727 has two Hydraulic systems (A&B)
"B" System
"B" system again contains a single reservoir supplying two electric AC pumps.
It's reservoir is more complicated that system "A" in that it has an
auxiliary reservoir separated by a baffle which is open at the top ("little b"),
this is reserved for alternate extension of the leading edge slats and flaps
using stand by hydraulic power (more about that later).
Each pump is controlled by its individual selection switch; with the switch ON
normal hydraulic output pressure is provided to the system. As in the "A"
system a portion of the fluid is used for cooling and lubrication of the pump but
is returned via a heat exchanger in the no1 fuel tank. if the pressure falls
below the preset level a warning light will illuminate, sensors monitor the fluid
temperature and if activated will bring on an overheat light. A relay in the
overheat sensing circuit will cause the overheat light to go out when the
affected pump is turned off. A simplified view of the system is the same as the
above diagram but with no blocking valve or shut off valve (items 2 & 4).
Fluid Quantity....................Full if system "A" quantity over 2.5 gall
System Pressure............2,800 - 3100 psi (red line @ 3,500)
Baffle level (little B)............1.1 gall
Do not operate a system "B" pump with less than 1,300 lbs in fuel tank No1
Any one hydraulic system "B" pump should not be operated more than 5
times in 5 min's. After this period the pump must be left on for 5 min's or off for
30 min's.
Systems Operated:
Brakes
Inboard Spoilers
Upper Rudder
Aft Airstairs
Ailerons
Elevators
There is not necessarily just one version of the hydraulic or other systems that applies to all 727s. Differences may exist between specific aircraft for different airlines.
And someone paid Boeing some money to demonstrate that the 727 could fly with the aft stairs down and that cargo and parachutists could be dropped through that stairway while airborne. Modifications would have been made to those stairs and the related systems to accommodate the desires of whoever was paying the money to Boeing.
And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.
And if I remember 377's previous comments on this subject, Boeing was not willing to part with that modification information for the benefit of the skydiver community.
Even to its own members of the Boeing Sky Diving Club, who worked with the NWA & FBI on the case ?
Regardless of what 377 claims, a Boeing spokesman gave it to the whole world via the Assoc Press On Nov 30th. So if it was Top Secret before 11-24-71 it was known to the whole world after the 30th of Nov 1971. I'm always skeptical of well known secrets thousands of people know about ... but the next guy doesn't! ;)
Oh. And citing airplanes that don't have stairs but have been jumped siccessfully ... has nothing to do with this! Erecting a straw man is not an argument or proof of anything .. specifically, socalled secrecy issues of the 727. :)
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How exactly did Don Burnworth get fingered as a Cooper suspect?
I got the Burnworth story from Galen, who got it from a flight attendant on Alaska Airlines, who got it from a guy who doesn't want his true identity revealed, so I call him "Mike."
Mike's story about Burnworth is in my book. Plus, I conducted several interviews with Don and his daughter, and some other family members and mafia sources in KC. The FBI interviewed Don in late August 1972, in San Francisco.
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How exactly did Don Burnworth get fingered as a Cooper suspect?
I got the Burnworth story from Galen, who got it from a flight attendant on Alaska Airlines, who got it from a guy who doesn't want his true identity revealed, so I call him "Mike."
Mike's story about Burnworth is in my book. Plus, I conducted several interviews with Don and his daughter, and some other family members and mafia sources in KC. The FBI interviewed Don in late August 1972, in San Francisco.
I'll have to re-read that part.
-
Burnworth is not only a 727 pilot, he is a systems expert. He has an issued patent that discloses a significant improvement to the way Boeing manages 727 power busses. Interestingly it is centered around electrical loads as they relate to wing flap extension.
http://patents.justia.com/patent/4317177
Patent number: 4317177
Abstract: A control system prevents electrical overloads in an aircraft of the type in which electrical loads are automatically connected to an electrical supply bus when the wing flaps are extended. The control system determines the maximum capability of the electrical generators for generating electricity and determines the wing flap position. Because electrical load is related to the wing flap position in this type of aircraft, the control system automatically correlates the wing flap position to electrical load. The control system operatively disconnects electrical load from the supply bus, or prevents energization of additional electrical load, when it determines that the maximum power generating capacity of the operative electrical generators will be exceeded by the automatic connection of the electrical load upon extension of the wing flaps.A test circuit apparatus is used for checking proper operation of the control system.
Type: Grant
Filed: January 14, 1980
Issued: February 23, 1982
Assignee: Martin P. Miller
Inventor: Donald O. Burnworth
377
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Don was an interesting interview. Often hard to corral and cranky when it came to returning phone calls, he nevertheless loved talking about DB Cooper. He told his story with such conviction and clarity it was often easy to forget that he was bat-shit crazy. But such is madness. He was also wonderfully honest about his love-life, amazing me with his accounts of chasing after his wife and kids with his mistress in tow.
And just when I thought Don was totally certifiable, I had a guy in KC "law enforcement" tell me that the story about Don's ex's mafia princess family staging the DB Cooper skyjacking as a ploy to obtain child custody wasn't totally coo-coo. In fact, he told me that "la senora" wasn't as squeaky clean as the official records indicated, but "you didn't hear that from me."
I didn't put THAT in the book, by the way, since neither 377 nor Galen have passed the bar in Kansas. Just sayin'...
Lastly, Don passed away in 2012 of cancer. He was 82.
RIP, Captain.
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How exactly did Don Burnworth get fingered as a Cooper suspect?
I got the Burnworth story from Galen, who got it from a flight attendant on Alaska Airlines, who got it from a guy who doesn't want his true identity revealed, so I call him "Mike."
Mike's story about Burnworth is in my book. Plus, I conducted several interviews with Don and his daughter, and some other family members and mafia sources in KC. The FBI interviewed Don in late August 1972, in San Francisco.
I'll have to re-read that part.
Here we go again. Revisiting 2010 for some reason? You can read all the essentials here, basically, in a serie of posts le Dropzone.com: http://www.dropzone.com/forum/Skydiving_C1/Skydiving_History_&_Trivia_F21/DB_Cooper_P3110098-699
That and of course these fishbones to fill in any missing links: https://www.google.com/#q=don+burnworth+db+cooper
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Here we go again. Revisiting 2010 for some reason?
I'm not revisiting, I wasn't there. I bother you guys because you have all the shortcuts.
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Here we go again. Revisiting 2010 for some reason?
I'm not revisiting, I wasn't there. I bother you guys because you have all the shortcuts.
It's no bother, Andra-, and it has historical value. I just wanted you to see where the core of forum discussion about about this subject was, what had been said before, etc. As long as the DZ archive is still alive its a valuable resource.
8)
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Correct me if I’m wrong, but as far as I can tell from the research I have done into the DB Cooper mystery, there are three scenarios that exist (discounting conspiracy theories):
1. Cooper exited the aircraft, could not get his chute open, drilled into the duff and perished;
2. Cooper exited the aircraft, landed in a water body and perished;
3. Cooper exited the aircraft, survived the jump, escaped the dragnet, and:
a. deceased some time afterward, or,
b. remains alive today.
If #1 is true, considering the time that has passed, Coopers’ remains would likely be decomposed and tied-up in the nutrient cycle of the forest ecosystem and scant evidence may remain intact that could identify who DB Cooper was. Perhaps one day any surviving evidence will be discovered by a Cooper researcher, logger, hunter, road builder, forest firefighter, etc...
If #2 is true, again considering the time that has passed, it is likely that all physical evidence that could indicate who DB Cooper was may be buried in sediments and/or decomposed to an unrecognizable form and washed out to sea as fish food. For someone, perhaps a recent kipper entrée is DB Cooper. He is part of the food chain.
If #3a is true, and if he did not meet his fate by foul play and fed to the pigs or dissolved in a vat of acid, it is conceivable that evidence may surface that sheds light on who DB Cooper was. An autopsy report, a personal item with fingerprints or DNA sample, photographs, etc...
If #3b is true, he walks amongst us today. It then goes without saying, all the evidence would exist to identify who DB Cooper is. The trick is spotting him within the 7 billion+ people on the planet today. Perhaps a simple process of elimination or a sharp-eyed someone is all that is required to solve the enduring mystery.
44 years and counting, 1000+ people scrutinized – and nothing – this despite so many talented people seeking Coopers’ true identity considering the scenarios listed above. Is it just a matter of people looking in the wrong places or is there another scenario not accounted for – is there some validity to any of the countless conspiracy theories floating around? After giving it much thought, I suspect he survived the jump and escaped the dragnet. Observation tells me it is plausible that he may still be with us today. So now there is yet one more person looking at faces in the crowd for John Doe (a.k.a. Dan Cooper) (a.k.a. DB Cooper).
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The cadmium plated harness hardware on the NB8 rig, the ripcord pin cones, the riser connector links and (stainless steel?) ripcord cable tube could literally survive for centuries.
A long time ago I posted info about submerged unopened WW2 parachutes found 70 years later in great shape.
If above ground, UV would likely destroy all the nylon stuff eventually, but some of the metal parts could last a long long time.
The flexible segmented cable tube is very distinctive and if found with other hardware might cause further inquiry and subsequent identification as parachute gear.
377
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...as far as I can tell from the research I have done into the DB Cooper mystery, there are three scenarios that exist (discounting conspiracy theories)...
Ahhhhh, Prospector! How come you are giving up so easily? Vat? You don't like my time-traveling scenario? (It's my favorite "conspiracy theory" theory.)
But, of the more mainstream/conventional theories of Norjak, whaddaya like?
1. Whuffo, dumb-shit who froze his nuts off in a wind-chill of 120 degrees below zero and cratered with an "X" parachute wrapped around his tootsies?
2. Slick SOG guy who did a one-off over the T-Day weekend, and then went back to his regular Army gig in 'Nam.
3. The gay purser from Northwest Orient?
4. The trans-gender gal from Thun Field?
5. Eagle-eyed Petey who got sick and tired of living in a mud hut in Nepal?
6. The suicidal guy with bad kidneys, but a heart of gold?
7. The UAL Captain who had an ex who hired a look-alike to do the job and frame him?
8. The Wolf Man of Depoe Bay?
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The cadmium plated harness hardware on the NB8 rig, the ripcord pin cones, the riser connector links and (stainless steel?) ripcord cable tube could literally survive for centuries.
A long time ago I posted info about submerged unopened WW2 parachutes found 70 years later in great shape.
If above ground, UV would likely destroy all the nylon stuff eventually, but some of the metal parts could last a long long time.
The flexible segmented cable tube is very distinctive and if found with other hardware might cause further inquiry and subsequent identification as parachute gear.
377
As much as I LOVE you, 377, you drive me crazy with your persistence with the NB-6/NB-8 stuff. Whaddabout Hayden's Steinthaul Pioneer?
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If #2 is true, again considering the time that has passed, it is likely that all physical evidence that could indicate who DB Cooper was may be buried in sediments and/or decomposed to an unrecognizable form and washed out to sea as fish food. For someone, perhaps a recent kipper entrée is DB Cooper. He is part of the food chain.
Richard Tosaw is your friend, Prospector!
My fantasy object, Mooshie Farnsworth of Parachutist Magazine, is similarly inclined. She feels DBC splattered into a huge mud puddle and entombed himself and all of his gear. If you've ever been to Himmelsbach's 40-acre ranch - next to the Pudding River (need I saw more?) - you can see what serious mud looks like in rain country, and easily believe that Danny Boy made a big mud pie somewhere.
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...Is it just a matter of people looking in the wrong places or is there another scenario not accounted for – is there some validity to any of the countless conspiracy theories floating around?...
What do you think of my book and the many possibilities I posit?
Just askin'.
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...is there some validity to any of the countless conspiracy theories floating around? After giving it much thought, I suspect he survived the jump and escaped the dragnet. Observation tells me it is plausible that he may still be with us today. So now there is yet one more person looking at faces in the crowd for John Doe (a.k.a. Dan Cooper) (a.k.a. DB Cooper).
So, Prospector, you ARE a conspiracy nut!!!
I knew you were one of us.
-
...is there some validity to any of the countless conspiracy theories floating around? After giving it much thought, I suspect he survived the jump and escaped the dragnet. Observation tells me it is plausible that he may still be with us today. So now there is yet one more person looking at faces in the crowd for John Doe (a.k.a. Dan Cooper) (a.k.a. DB Cooper).
This could be the beginning of a wonderful relationship...
-
...as far as I can tell from the research I have done into the DB Cooper mystery, there are three scenarios that exist (discounting conspiracy theories)...
Ahhhhh, Prospector! How come you are giving up so easily? Vat? You don't like my time-traveling scenario? (It's my favorite "conspiracy theory" theory.)
But, of the more mainstream/conventional theories of Norjak, whaddaya like?
1. Whuffo, dumb-shit who froze his nuts off in a wind-chill of 120 degrees below zero and cratered with an "X" parachute wrapped around his tootsies?
2. Slick SOG guy who did a one-off over the T-Day weekend, and then went back to his regular Army gig in 'Nam.
3. The gay purser from Northwest Orient?
4. The trans-gender gal from Thun Field?
5. Eagle-eyed Petey who got sick and tired of living in a mud hut in Nepal?
6. The suicidal guy with bad kidneys, but a heart of gold?
7. The UAL Captain who had an ex who hired a look-alike to do the job and frame him?
8. The Wolf Man of Depoe Bay?
Multiple choice questions usually have a choice for all of the above or none of the above (sometimes combo’s of choices too). But since you give me no options like that, I’ll bite on #2 with the codicil that the very slick dude had completed his service tours and rotated back home.
Why #2? - wasn’t the US$2 bill issued to service members to track where they spent their money while on leave overseas because it was ‘negotiable American currency’? That and the whole 1971 who knew you could pull off a jump from a 727 given those flight parameters. Those SOG guys were a skookum bunch, wish I had half the parts needed to have done the job.
In reality though, beyond the apparent fact that he “exited the aircraft”, everything else is for me is pure speculation. Part marks for effort?
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What other Cooper characteristics other than the following list would lead a prospector to pay dirt? Anything else that could be added that the seasoned Cooper vets can think of? I’ll share the claim with the heavy lifters if I strike.
Facial features that closely match composites;
Height and build that closely match witness descriptions;
High hairline, forehead with some kind of unusual slant;
Had dark colored hair, irregular hairline;
Ears somewhat asymmetrical;
Close-set dark eyes, no eyelashes, short bushy angular eyebrows, and black lines above eyelids when open (hooded or droopy);
“Turkey gobble” fold of skin below chin;
Swarthy or olive skin complexion;
Protruding lower lip;
Purses lips, action described as having relaxed and contracted positions (noticeable always or only when distressed, concentrating, etc...?);
Had two crooked front teeth;
Speaks English in a low voice, intelligently, and without any discernible accent;
Can be thoughtful and polite;
Possibly volatile when angered, carries a grudge;
A Caucasian male who was 35 years old or more in 1971 (79 years+ nowadays);
Possible military background, likely combat hardened;
Connected somehow with the Pacific Northwest;
Possible working knowledge of the French language;
Possibly connected with Canada and likely able to pass freely back and forth across the border (i.e. lacking criminal record).
On the “Bing Crosby” composite without sunglasses, there is some kind of shading, or so it would seem, on the bridge of the nose on the left side. Is this some kind of shading by the sketch artist to indicate a mole or some other mark? I understand witnesses described Cooper as having no distinguishing marks or tattoos. The age enhanced composite or “B” composite without sunglasses does not appear to have a similar feature.
The high forehead on the Bing composites seems somewhat laterally compressed with a hint of some form of raised bumps about mid-level, however, the B composite appears to show a somewhat more symmetrical forehead.
There appears to be no description of his hands, which would have been the only other exposed skin surface visible to the various witnesses. I’m curious if his hands were beefy, boney or somewhere in-between. Was there anything released publically whether he was right or left handed, or ambidextrous?
If Cooper had a grudge before the skyjack, it would not be a stretch to think that grudge would have been amplified when the realization that the cash was marked set-in. Good enough reason to write a book and try to at least get some royalties for the effort of it all. Looking for a really angry old man getting royalty cheques might help.
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What other Cooper characteristics other than the following list would lead a prospector to pay dirt? Anything else that could be added that the seasoned Cooper vets can think of? I’ll share the claim with the heavy lifters if I strike.
Facial features that closely match composites;
Height and build that closely match witness descriptions;
High hairline, forehead with some kind of unusual slant;
Had dark colored hair, irregular hairline;
Ears somewhat asymmetrical;
Close-set dark eyes, no eyelashes, short bushy angular eyebrows, and black lines above eyelids when open (hooded or droopy);
“Turkey gobble” fold of skin below chin;
Swarthy or olive skin complexion;
Protruding lower lip;
Purses lips, action described as having relaxed and contracted positions (noticeable always or only when distressed, concentrating, etc...?);
Had two crooked front teeth;
Speaks English in a low voice, intelligently, and without any discernible accent;
Can be thoughtful and polite;
Possibly volatile when angered, carries a grudge;
A Caucasian male who was 35 years old or more in 1971 (79 years+ nowadays);
Possible military background, likely combat hardened;
Connected somehow with the Pacific Northwest;
Possible working knowledge of the French language;
Possibly connected with Canada and likely able to pass freely back and forth across the border (i.e. lacking criminal record).
On the “Bing Crosby” composite without sunglasses, there is some kind of shading, or so it would seem, on the bridge of the nose on the left side. Is this some kind of shading by the sketch artist to indicate a mole or some other mark? I understand witnesses described Cooper as having no distinguishing marks or tattoos. The age enhanced composite or “B” composite without sunglasses does not appear to have a similar feature.
The high forehead on the Bing composites seems somewhat laterally compressed with a hint of some form of raised bumps about mid-level, however, the B composite appears to show a somewhat more symmetrical forehead.
There appears to be no description of his hands, which would have been the only other exposed skin surface visible to the various witnesses. I’m curious if his hands were beefy, boney or somewhere in-between. Was there anything released publically whether he was right or left handed, or ambidextrous?
If Cooper had a grudge before the skyjack, it would not be a stretch to think that grudge would have been amplified when the realization that the cash was marked set-in. Good enough reason to write a book and try to at least get some royalties for the effort of it all. Looking for a really angry old man getting royalty cheques might help.
The cash was marked ? Gray claimed this but never explained. Have you a reference to this other than Gray? Other than the serial numbers and each bill being photographed (as explai9ned at length elsewhere) how was it marked?
As for the rest of your questions above, I dont think anyone here can address them. You would have to put these questions to the FBI and at this point I seriously doubt even they could answer these questions ?
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The cadmium plated harness hardware on the NB8 rig, the ripcord pin cones, the riser connector links and (stainless steel?) ripcord cable tube could literally survive for centuries.
A long time ago I posted info about submerged unopened WW2 parachutes found 70 years later in great shape.
If above ground, UV would likely destroy all the nylon stuff eventually, but some of the metal parts could last a long long time.
The flexible segmented cable tube is very distinctive and if found with other hardware might cause further inquiry and subsequent identification as parachute gear.
377
As much as I LOVE you, 377, you drive me crazy with your persistence with the NB-6/NB-8 stuff. Whaddabout Hayden's Steinthaul Pioneer?
You got me Bruce. That rig too.
I still admire the work you did on chute types and ownership. You took commonly accepted "truths", did some feet on the street work, and blew Cossey's chute ownership story to pieces.
I wish you could contact Norman and see if he used the metals found on the "Cooper tie" in his machine shop. Pure titanium, bismuth, aluminum, etc. I have always wondered if Norman's rigs had traces of these metals on them from being carried through his machine shop. If the tie was Coopers and if the tie contacted the metal contaminated rigs, it might explain what Tom and Al found in the lab work.
What do you think?
377
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The cadmium plated harness hardware on the NB8 rig, the ripcord pin cones, the riser connector links and (stainless steel?) ripcord cable tube could literally survive for centuries.
A long time ago I posted info about submerged unopened WW2 parachutes found 70 years later in great shape.
If above ground, UV would likely destroy all the nylon stuff eventually, but some of the metal parts could last a long long time.
The flexible segmented cable tube is very distinctive and if found with other hardware might cause further inquiry and subsequent identification as parachute gear.
377
As much as I LOVE you, 377, you drive me crazy with your persistence with the NB-6/NB-8 stuff. Whaddabout Hayden's Steinthaul Pioneer?
You got me Bruce. That rig too.
I still admire the work you did on chute types and ownership. You took commonly accepted "truths", did some feet on the street work, and blew Cossey's chute ownership story to pieces.
I wish you could contact Norman and see if he used the metals found on the "Cooper tie" in his machine shop. Pure titanium, bismuth, aluminum, etc. I have always wondered if Norman's rigs had traces of these metals on them from being carried through his machine shop. If the tie was Coopers and if the tie contacted the metal contaminated rigs, it might explain what Tom and Al found in the lab work.
What do you think?
377
Those particles are the Gorilla in the Closet. Sailshaw says they were readily available in Peterson's environment. They were available in somebody's environment.
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You gotta stay skeptical in the Cooper Vortex. Bias creeps in despite best efforts and good intentions. NOBODY, so far, can put ANY SUSPECT on the plane.
377
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http://www.nytimes.com/1985/05/21/science/a-year-after-mushroom-cloud-the-mystery-lingers.html
This one has always fascinated me. What did these pilots observe? What caused the huge mushroom cloud?
377
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The cadmium plated harness hardware on the NB8 rig, the ripcord pin cones, the riser connector links and (stainless steel?) ripcord cable tube could literally survive for centuries.
A long time ago I posted info about submerged unopened WW2 parachutes found 70 years later in great shape.
If above ground, UV would likely destroy all the nylon stuff eventually, but some of the metal parts could last a long long time.
The flexible segmented cable tube is very distinctive and if found with other hardware might cause further inquiry and subsequent identification as parachute gear.
377
As much as I LOVE you, 377, you drive me crazy with your persistence with the NB-6/NB-8 stuff. Whaddabout Hayden's Steinthaul Pioneer?
You got me Bruce. That rig too.
I still admire the work you did on chute types and ownership. You took commonly accepted "truths", did some feet on the street work, and blew Cossey's chute ownership story to pieces.
I wish you could contact Norman and see if he used the metals found on the "Cooper tie" in his machine shop. Pure titanium, bismuth, aluminum, etc. I have always wondered if Norman's rigs had traces of these metals on them from being carried through his machine shop. If the tie was Coopers and if the tie contacted the metal contaminated rigs, it might explain what Tom and Al found in the lab work.
What do you think?
377
Norman refuses to talk with me, in toto. He feels that I have sullied his reputation by writing about his association with Earl Cossey. Sigh. (And my reputation isn't when I'm the guy getting labeled as Coss's murderer by Mrs. Cooper? Go figure!)
Anyways. I suggest that you talk with Norman directly. He's a nice guy and generally receptive to these kinds of inquiries. If you need contact info, give me a holla. In the meantime, Hayden Manufacturing. Kent, WA.
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Cooper might have said this :D :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAvPEzvrbX8
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What other Cooper characteristics other than the following list would lead a prospector to pay dirt? Anything else that could be added that the seasoned Cooper vets can think of? I’ll share the claim with the heavy lifters if I strike.
Facial features that closely match composites;
Height and build that closely match witness descriptions;
High hairline, forehead with some kind of unusual slant;
Had dark colored hair, irregular hairline;
Ears somewhat asymmetrical;
Close-set dark eyes, no eyelashes, short bushy angular eyebrows, and black lines above eyelids when open (hooded or droopy);
“Turkey gobble” fold of skin below chin;
Swarthy or olive skin complexion;
Protruding lower lip;
Purses lips, action described as having relaxed and contracted positions (noticeable always or only when distressed, concentrating, etc...?);
Had two crooked front teeth;
Speaks English in a low voice, intelligently, and without any discernible accent;
Can be thoughtful and polite;
Possibly volatile when angered, carries a grudge;
A Caucasian male who was 35 years old or more in 1971 (79 years+ nowadays);
Possible military background, likely combat hardened;
Connected somehow with the Pacific Northwest;
Possible working knowledge of the French language;
Possibly connected with Canada and likely able to pass freely back and forth across the border (i.e. lacking criminal record).
On the “Bing Crosby” composite without sunglasses, there is some kind of shading, or so it would seem, on the bridge of the nose on the left side. Is this some kind of shading by the sketch artist to indicate a mole or some other mark? I understand witnesses described Cooper as having no distinguishing marks or tattoos. The age enhanced composite or “B” composite without sunglasses does not appear to have a similar feature.
The high forehead on the Bing composites seems somewhat laterally compressed with a hint of some form of raised bumps about mid-level, however, the B composite appears to show a somewhat more symmetrical forehead.
There appears to be no description of his hands, which would have been the only other exposed skin surface visible to the various witnesses. I’m curious if his hands were beefy, boney or somewhere in-between. Was there anything released publically whether he was right or left handed, or ambidextrous?
If Cooper had a grudge before the skyjack, it would not be a stretch to think that grudge would have been amplified when the realization that the cash was marked set-in. Good enough reason to write a book and try to at least get some royalties for the effort of it all. Looking for a really angry old man getting royalty cheques might help.
The cash was marked ? Gray claimed this but never explained. Have you a reference to this other than Gray? Other than the serial numbers and each bill being photographed (as explai9ned at length elsewhere) how was it marked?
As for the rest of your questions above, I dont think anyone here can address them. You would have to put these questions to the FBI and at this point I seriously doubt even they could answer these questions ?
Thanks Cooper Vets
Must be a fairly good list of physical and profile characteristics. Many years ago saw a movie where a criminal was executed by fellow townsfolk by placing a wooden door over the condemned person and all the townsfolk paraded by and each placed a small stone on top of the door. And, well – you get the picture. So I’ll add the ability to write in cursive to the list and scratch all the unknowns. Agreed though that no one knows who wrote the original handwritten note handed to the flight attendant other than the person(s) involved in the caper. Cooper did have by all accounts the presence of mind to retrieve it – likely because of fingerprints and handwriting clues.
There must be some other small stones that are yet to be laid?
-
What other Cooper characteristics other than the following list would lead a prospector to pay dirt? Anything else that could be added that the seasoned Cooper vets can think of? I’ll share the claim with the heavy lifters if I strike.
Facial features that closely match composites;
Height and build that closely match witness descriptions;
High hairline, forehead with some kind of unusual slant;
Had dark colored hair, irregular hairline;
Ears somewhat asymmetrical;
Close-set dark eyes, no eyelashes, short bushy angular eyebrows, and black lines above eyelids when open (hooded or droopy);
“Turkey gobble” fold of skin below chin;
Swarthy or olive skin complexion;
Protruding lower lip;
Purses lips, action described as having relaxed and contracted positions (noticeable always or only when distressed, concentrating, etc...?);
Had two crooked front teeth;
Speaks English in a low voice, intelligently, and without any discernible accent;
Can be thoughtful and polite;
Possibly volatile when angered, carries a grudge;
A Caucasian male who was 35 years old or more in 1971 (79 years+ nowadays);
Possible military background, likely combat hardened;
Connected somehow with the Pacific Northwest;
Possible working knowledge of the French language;
Possibly connected with Canada and likely able to pass freely back and forth across the border (i.e. lacking criminal record).
On the “Bing Crosby” composite without sunglasses, there is some kind of shading, or so it would seem, on the bridge of the nose on the left side. Is this some kind of shading by the sketch artist to indicate a mole or some other mark? I understand witnesses described Cooper as having no distinguishing marks or tattoos. The age enhanced composite or “B” composite without sunglasses does not appear to have a similar feature.
The high forehead on the Bing composites seems somewhat laterally compressed with a hint of some form of raised bumps about mid-level, however, the B composite appears to show a somewhat more symmetrical forehead.
There appears to be no description of his hands, which would have been the only other exposed skin surface visible to the various witnesses. I’m curious if his hands were beefy, boney or somewhere in-between. Was there anything released publically whether he was right or left handed, or ambidextrous?
If Cooper had a grudge before the skyjack, it would not be a stretch to think that grudge would have been amplified when the realization that the cash was marked set-in. Good enough reason to write a book and try to at least get some royalties for the effort of it all. Looking for a really angry old man getting royalty cheques might help.
The cash was marked ? Gray claimed this but never explained. Have you a reference to this other than Gray? Other than the serial numbers and each bill being photographed (as explai9ned at length elsewhere) how was it marked?
As for the rest of your questions above, I dont think anyone here can address them. You would have to put these questions to the FBI and at this point I seriously doubt even they could answer these questions ?
Thanks Cooper Vets
Must be a fairly good list of physical and profile characteristics. Many years ago saw a movie where a criminal was executed by fellow townsfolk by placing a wooden door over the condemned person and all the townsfolk paraded by and each placed a small stone on top of the door. And, well – you get the picture. So I’ll add the ability to write in cursive to the list and scratch all the unknowns. Agreed though that no one knows who wrote the original handwritten note handed to the flight attendant other than the person(s) involved in the caper. Cooper did have by all accounts the presence of mind to retrieve it – likely because of fingerprints and handwriting clues.
There must be some other small stones that are yet to be laid?
Cursive was a basic part of American education by the 1920s ... or earlier. Not sure about other areas of the world. Usually taught in the third grade? Does this mean he had a traditional American education? I dunnoh! :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive
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Cursive was a basic part of American education by the 1920s ... or earlier. Not sure about other areas of the world. Usually taught in the third grade? Does this mean he had a traditional American education? I dunnoh! :)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive
[/quote]
Canadian schools from what I understand also taught cursive starting in grade 3 in the era Cooper would have been a student. French was compulsory in High School. That may narrow the geographical range of his youth when you add in the lack of distinguishable accent to western US and/or Canada. Learning French in High School would likely reduce the development of an accent while still having a command of the language.
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Have you had a chance to read the crew notes taken shortly after the hijacking?
By the way....Welcome to the forum 8)
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I consider this handwriting business to be about half a clue.
In general, I believe people feel comfortable communicating with other people in writing, especially strangers, in predictable ways. I write in cursive, but I will print for other people because my cursive is atrocious. This can't be too controversial, we've all experienced this at some point. So, cursive was a part of the education of any Cooper suspect, but Cooper felt comfortable writing in cursive, for strangers, to commit a crime. And apparently it was "legible" (unlike mine). I don't believe this handwriting business will do anything other than represent one small part of eliminating marginal suspects. Barb Dayton, when she was writing for other people, wrote in a messy all caps (or most caps) print. She likely knew cursive, but I don't think she ever wrote in it, based on the documents included in the Ron and Pat's book. Thus, one "minus" on the checklist for Dayton. That's it, just half a clue to go with the other problems with Dayton as a suspect. In a lot of ways, I think the best we can do in this case is eliminate suspects, and this is one way to help do that.
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My cursive is so bad I haven't used it in years. I probably stopped 15 years now. I'm left handed and have horrible handwriting :(
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I consider this handwriting business to be about half a clue.
In general, I believe people feel comfortable communicating with other people in writing, especially strangers, in predictable ways. I write in cursive, but I will print for other people because my cursive is atrocious. This can't be too controversial, we've all experienced this at some point. So, cursive was a part of the education of any Cooper suspect, but Cooper felt comfortable writing in cursive, for strangers, to commit a crime. And apparently it was "legible" (unlike mine). I don't believe this handwriting business will do anything other than represent one small part of eliminating marginal suspects. Barb Dayton, when she was writing for other people, wrote in a messy all caps (or most caps) print. She likely knew cursive, but I don't think she ever wrote in it, based on the documents included in the Ron and Pat's book. Thus, one "minus" on the checklist for Dayton. That's it, just half a clue to go with the other problems with Dayton as a suspect. In a lot of ways, I think the best we can do in this case is eliminate suspects, and this is one way to help do that.
Writing is a formal matter vs spoken speech, indicates education, rules, ... of which social rules are a part. Knowledge of such matters was a recognized part of early test batteries devised by Seashore and others for use in screening and placement of military and other personnel in WWII, including in private industry. It indicates that Cooper had been exposed on some level to formal basic education somewhere. The development of his cursive indicates he passed successfully through that educational level ... and if Dr. Seashore was correct this is a key component to the development of "conscience" and "self identity".
;)
If Cooper ever served in our military (or in the Canadian military) in WWII, if his induction was no earlier than about 1938 there very likely was once was a battery of test results on him, somewhere, with a sample of his hand-writing!
Apparently, no finger prints ever matched up for this guy, that lead to his records!
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Prospector:
How do you qualify DB Cooper's knowledge of the 727?
I say it was top-secret level, since he knew more about the plane and how to skydive from it than the pilots or anyone in flight ops at Northwest Orient.
Others, though, claim he could have learned everything he needed to know to steal Flight 305/or demonstrated during his skyjacking escapade - by spending fifteen minutes at the employee cafeteria at Boeing Field.
What say you?
To me, Cooper's unique knowledge is perhaps the most important clue in the case - and the most controversial.
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I think Cooper KNEW a 727 could be jumped. Without that knowledge he was likely to be entering a mobile aluminum jail cell.
Boeing knew it. CIA, Southern Air Transport and Air America knew it. NWA did not know it.
I bet those who were connected to parachuting activities in SE Asia heard about the SAT 727 jumps over Thailand. Parachuting gossip among fellow jumpers transcends all restrictions and classifications, trust me on that.
One reason I think Boeing is a more likely source is that the 727 jumps over Thailand had the door and stairs removed. Those jumps told you a 727 exit at moderate speeds was survivable, but it didn't tell you for sure that a 727 airliner airstair door could be opened and the stairs deployed safely in flight.
I believe, but have no proof, that the Boeing tests involved opening the door and deploying the stairs in flight. This is supported by Boeing's affirmative answers to the NWA questions about whether the aircraft could be safely flown with the door open and stairs deployed.
SP worked for Boeing in technical documentation and also jumped in SE Asia (Saigon Sport Parachute Club). He was an ex USFS smoke jumper and it is beyond dispute that the CIA recruited a lot of smoke jumpers to assist in covert air drop ops in SE Asia. None of this proves he was DBC but it does show some interesting possibilities.
I am well aware that having the skills and connections doesn't mean a person did the crime. I have zero evidence that SP was DBC, but he sure had the skills and experience. I sure wish I could talk with him, find out what he learned at Boeing and what he heard in SE Asia. Pete may have nothing to do with Norjack but he'd make a damned good detective on the case.
Sadly Pete thinks I am FBI/CIA and wont engage with me at all. I sent him a holiday cheer basket. He seems to be a lonely guy. He needs to know that old skydivers care about and look out for each other.
377
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Shutter, you've got a lot of 727 sim time. look at the SAT 727 jumps that are on YouTube. Can you see or estimate the flap angle? We can get some idea of the speed range possibilities as the photo plane is a Beech 18 turboprop conversion. Most had a top speed of just over 200 knots and a cruise speed well below that.
377
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I consider this handwriting business to be about half a clue.
In general, I believe people feel comfortable communicating with other people in writing, especially strangers, in predictable ways. I write in cursive, but I will print for other people because my cursive is atrocious. This can't be too controversial, we've all experienced this at some point. So, cursive was a part of the education of any Cooper suspect, but Cooper felt comfortable writing in cursive, for strangers, to commit a crime. And apparently it was "legible" (unlike mine). I don't believe this handwriting business will do anything other than represent one small part of eliminating marginal suspects. Barb Dayton, when she was writing for other people, wrote in a messy all caps (or most caps) print. She likely knew cursive, but I don't think she ever wrote in it, based on the documents included in the Ron and Pat's book. Thus, one "minus" on the checklist for Dayton. That's it, just half a clue to go with the other problems with Dayton as a suspect. In a lot of ways, I think the best we can do in this case is eliminate suspects, and this is one way to help do that.
Agreed – however I would argue that the value of any clue exists on a sliding scale which is context-dependent.
On its own, the ability to write in cursive doesn’t mean much, but when placed beside other facts like lack of accent, it helps narrow the focus somewhat. When taken in consideration with other known facts such as the climate during his formative years it takes on more value. Cooper came into the world somewhere near the ‘crash of 1929’ and endured the hardships of the great depression as a young child. His adolescence was likely during the height of WWII and about the time he would have been of the age to graduate High School – Korea. Yet it would appear that through all of this he received a formal education of some sort.
If any of those taunting letters that were sent to newspapers were in truth sent by the hijacker, it would appear that the author went out of their way to not write in cursive. That may raise suspicion amongst the curious. Even those who pen correspondence in cursive still fill out forms and insert acronyms into documents in capital and lowercase letters only. Perhaps a document will surface some day that may provide a handwriting match to capital letters and lowercase letters printed on the purported Cooper notes and envelopes. In that case, the cursive clue graduates from half clue to full-on clue.
Granted we don’t know in reality who wrote anything linked to the caper, maybe his mommy wrote the notes and the cursive clue is without any value whatsoever.
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Prospector:
How do you qualify DB Cooper's knowledge of the 727?
I say it was top-secret level, since he knew more about the plane and how to skydive from it than the pilots or anyone in flight ops at Northwest Orient.
Others, though, claim he could have learned everything he needed to know to steal Flight 305/or demonstrated during his skyjacking escapade - by spending fifteen minutes at the employee cafeteria at Boeing Field.
What say you?
To me, Cooper's unique knowledge is perhaps the most important clue in the case - and the most controversial.
Criminal intent is, as I understand it, to be the most difficult part of a criminal case to prove.
With regards to the 727 issue, we can assume that he intended to hijack an aircraft because he went through the motions of preparing an explosive device, or what appeared to be an explosive device prior to boarding the aircraft. We can assume also that he intended to hijack a 727 specifically (he confirmed 727 at the ticket desk). We can assume that it was not a suicide mission (he wanted money most likely to spend and parachutes to escape). So ----- lets’ assume he knew that it was possible to successfully jump from a 727 given the flight parameters dictated to the flight crew. By all accounts clandestine knowledge in 1971.
Now if there is intent in all of that, unless it was some kind of ruse, he had knowledge that a successful jump was possible but did not know how to deploy the aft stairs in-flight. This suggests that he was a grunt that did the jump when a signal was given, not a jumpmaster or someone with the operational knowledge required to deploy the stairs. Which, if I have it right, it is a rather simple procedure that requires knowledge, but not an advanced technical skill set.
I would think with the level of knowledge and skill required to plan (intent) and execute the heist, he would have bought a coffee for someone that could inform him the procedure to deploy the aft stairs.
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Have you had a chance to read the crew notes taken shortly after the hijacking?
By the way....Welcome to the forum 8)
Thanks, I've been following for a while.
No, I haven't read those notes, where can they be found? I'd like to get a read of the Missing Persons Report also, but understand it is for LE eyes only.
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Prospector:
How do you qualify DB Cooper's knowledge of the 727?
I say it was top-secret level, since he knew more about the plane and how to skydive from it than the pilots or anyone in flight ops at Northwest Orient.
Others, though, claim he could have learned everything he needed to know to steal Flight 305/or demonstrated during his skyjacking escapade - by spending fifteen minutes at the employee cafeteria at Boeing Field.
What say you?
To me, Cooper's unique knowledge is perhaps the most important clue in the case - and the most controversial.
Criminal intent is, as I understand it, to be the most difficult part of a criminal case to prove.
With regards to the 727 issue, we can assume that he intended to hijack an aircraft because he went through the motions of preparing an explosive device, or what appeared to be an explosive device prior to boarding the aircraft. We can assume also that he intended to hijack a 727 specifically (he confirmed 727 at the ticket desk). We can assume that it was not a suicide mission (he wanted money most likely to spend and parachutes to escape). So ----- lets’ assume he knew that it was possible to successfully jump from a 727 given the flight parameters dictated to the flight crew. By all accounts clandestine knowledge in 1971.
Now if there is intent in all of that, unless it was some kind of ruse, he had knowledge that a successful jump was possible but did not know how to deploy the aft stairs in-flight. This suggests that he was a grunt that did the jump when a signal was given, not a jumpmaster or someone with the operational knowledge required to deploy the stairs. Which, if I have it right, it is a rather simple procedure that requires knowledge, but not an advanced technical skill set.
I would think with the level of knowledge and skill required to plan (intent) and execute the heist, he would have bought a coffee for someone that could inform him the procedure to deploy the aft stairs.
Now if there is intent in all of that, unless it was some kind of ruse, he had knowledge that a successful jump was possible but did not know how to deploy the aft stairs in-flight. This suggests that he was a grunt that did the jump when a signal was given, not a jumpmaster or someone with the operational knowledge required to deploy the stairs. Which, if I have it right, it is a rather simple procedure that requires knowledge, but not an advanced technical skill set.
Agree - that classifies him.
If he served in WWII or was part of the Mil-Industry he very likely had to submit to tests, finger prints, etc. Where are his prints and files? Maybe on some microfilm or fiche somewhere if they still existed in 1971 which isn't that long after the war .. everyone was tested (even test animals!) :) I knew and worked with the people who developed those test batteries so this is not conjecture on my part - -
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I think Cooper KNEW a 727 could be jumped. Without that knowledge he was likely to be entering a mobile aluminum jail cell.
Boeing knew it. CIA, Southern Air Transport and Air America knew it. NWA did not know it.
I bet those who were connected to parachuting activities in SE Asia heard about the SAT 727 jumps over Thailand. Parachuting gossip among fellow jumpers transcends all restrictions and classifications, trust me on that.
One reason I think Boeing is a more likely source is that the 727 jumps over Thailand had the door and stairs removed. Those jumps told you a 727 exit at moderate speeds was survivable, but it didn't tell you for sure that a 727 airliner airstair door could be opened and the stairs deployed safely in flight.
I believe, but have no proof, that the Boeing tests involved opening the door and deploying the stairs in flight. This is supported by Boeing's affirmative answers to the NWA questions about whether the aircraft could be safely flown with the door open and stairs deployed.
SP worked for Boeing in technical documentation and also jumped in SE Asia (Saigon Sport Parachute Club). He was an ex USFS smoke jumper and it is beyond dispute that the CIA recruited a lot of smoke jumpers to assist in covert air drop ops in SE Asia. None of this proves he was DBC but it does show some interesting possibilities.
I am well aware that having the skills and connections doesn't mean a person did the crime. I have zero evidence that SP was DBC, but he sure had the skills and experience. I sure wish I could talk with him, find out what he learned at Boeing and what he heard in SE Asia. Pete may have nothing to do with Norjack but he'd make a damned good detective on the case.
Sadly Pete thinks I am FBI/CIA and wont engage with me at all. I sent him a holiday cheer basket. He seems to be a lonely guy. He needs to know that old skydivers care about and look out for each other.
377
I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!
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G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"
This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.
If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.
377
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I don't think Cooper's knowledge of the 727 was nothing but minimal. he didn't know how to operate the stairs. it appears he didn't know they worked from gravity. he gave in, and allowed the plane to takeoff with them up.
McCoy was a pilot, and a skydiver. he was basically the co-pilot during the hijacking. his timing was accurate, and got him where he needed to go. constant updates from the pilot on weather, altitude, and timed the jump. Cooper said "fly to mexico" flaps at 15, and under 10,000. this is not top secret information.
He could of gained the information needed through many different avenue's. why does he have to be some special ops? kind of reminds me of the grandparents talking stories about there grand kids, beefing it up.....
Shutter, you've got a lot of 727 sim time. look at the SAT 727 jumps that are on YouTube. Can you see or estimate the flap angle?
I'll take a look. I never thought to look at the flaps....
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Crew debriefing notes can be found on our website.....
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
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I don't believe he had an actual explosive device. you will read in the debriefing that Cooper was stating that electronics could set off the bomb. I think he was adding drama to the situation. he claimed that two wires coming out of the briefcase would cause the bomb to go off if he connected them. that means it was wired in a series, so electronics wouldn't be a factor in setting the bomb off. then Tina ask's him to do something with the bomb (don't remember exact words) he said he would either deactivate it, or take it with him. unless his prints were all over it, it appears he didn't want them to find out it was fake?
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I don't think Cooper's knowledge of the 727 was nothing but minimal. he didn't know how to operate the stairs. it appears he didn't know they worked from gravity. he gave in, and allowed the plane to takeoff with them up.
McCoy was a pilot, and a skydiver. he was basically the co-pilot during the hijacking. his timing was accurate, and got him where he needed to go. constant updates from the pilot on weather, altitude, and timed the jump. Cooper said "fly to mexico" flaps at 15, and under 10,000. this is not top secrete information.
He could of gained the information needed through many different avenue's. why does he have to be some special ops? kind of reminds me of the grandparents talking stories about there grand kids, beefing it up.....
Shutter, you've got a lot of 727 sim time. look at the SAT 727 jumps that are on YouTube. Can you see or estimate the flap angle?
I'll take a look. I never thought to look at the flaps....
I think so. Ive always said his real expertise was in "psychology"! :) :) :) :)
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The flaps appear to be set at 20 degree's....see attached photo
My elevation is a little higher, but it would of lined up with the leading edge flaps in front if I was lower with my screenshot. I'll verify that..
From another forum...
As I recall from the vantage of 23 years since my last 727 flight for real, the flap limit speeds (max speed for that setting) were as follows:
flaps 2 - 230; flaps 5 - 215, flaps 15 - 205, flaps 20 - 185; flaps 25 - 180; flaps 30 - 170. By the time I flew it, the 40 degree setting was physically blocked so that the lever could not be positioned there. This was as a result of the Salt Lake City accident in 1964. A few airlines used flaps 40 (with special sim training) for places like St Thomas (before they lengthened the runway), and those airplanes usually also had the nose wheel brakes, which were removed from all the others to save weight.
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G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"
This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.
If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.
377
Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. :)
That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.
Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???
Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.
Nuff said about that non-issue.
I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.
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Now, from the correct angle I'm not sure if it's 15 degree flaps...Robert99?
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G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"
This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.
If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.
377
Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. :)
That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.
Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???
Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.
Nuff said about that non-issue.
I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.
I have pointed out dozens of times that the 727s that Boeing modified so that the stairs could be lowered and closed routinely in flight probably had a different stairs control panel than the standard 727 airliner. Cooper also told Tina (after the argument with Rataczak) that he knew that a 727 could take off with the aft stairs down. Presumably, he meant that they were unlocked and lowered slightly but not dragging the runway.
It would only take one glimpse of a 727 doing just that for Cooper to know that it could be done. But the flaps and airspeed settings would have to come from some knowledgeable source. So Cooper did have some information about the 727 that would require a minimum amount of "research" for him to know. And that information would have to come from someone familiar with the results of the Boeing tests and/or the way those modified 727s were operated in SEA or wherever they were used.
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Now, from the correct angle I'm not sure if it's 15 degree flaps...Robert99?
That looks like it is about 15 degrees and it also looks like the moveable slotted leading edge devices on the tips of the wing are also deployed. Do you know the exact flap position that has to be selected before those slotted LEDs start moving?
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Now, from the correct angle I'm not sure if it's 15 degree flaps...Robert99?
That looks like it is about 15 degrees and it also looks like the moveable slotted leading edge devices on the tips of the wing are also deployed. Do you know the exact flap position that has to be selected before those slotted LEDs start moving?
They start coming out as soon as I deploy the flaps...2, 5, 15 etc. they come out with each flap setting...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uYFkEJ3mTLM
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Full view of the plane at 20 degrees...
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G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"
This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.
If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.
377
Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. :)
That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.
Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???
Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.
Nuff said about that non-issue.
I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.
I have pointed out dozens of times that the 727s that Boeing modified so that the stairs could be lowered and closed routinely in flight probably had a different stairs control panel than the standard 727 airliner. Cooper also told Tina (after the argument with Rataczak) that he knew that a 727 could take off with the aft stairs down. Presumably, he meant that they were unlocked and lowered slightly but not dragging the runway.
It would only take one glimpse of a 727 doing just that for Cooper to know that it could be done. But the flaps and airspeed settings would have to come from some knowledgeable source. So Cooper did have some information about the 727 that would require a minimum amount of "research" for him to know. And that information would have to come from someone familiar with the results of the Boeing tests and/or the way those modified 727s were operated in SEA or wherever they were used.
Many may have known it could be done, but Cooper, an opportunist, was the first to convert that knowledge into $200K. Many more knew it could be done on November 25, 1971.
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G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"
This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.
If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.
377
Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. :)
That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.
Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???
Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.
Nuff said about that non-issue.
I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.
I have pointed out dozens of times that the 727s that Boeing modified so that the stairs could be lowered and closed routinely in flight probably had a different stairs control panel than the standard 727 airliner. Cooper also told Tina (after the argument with Rataczak) that he knew that a 727 could take off with the aft stairs down. Presumably, he meant that they were unlocked and lowered slightly but not dragging the runway.
It would only take one glimpse of a 727 doing just that for Cooper to know that it could be done. But the flaps and airspeed settings would have to come from some knowledgeable source. So Cooper did have some information about the 727 that would require a minimum amount of "research" for him to know. And that information would have to come from someone familiar with the results of the Boeing tests and/or the way those modified 727s were operated in SEA or wherever they were used.
Many may have known it could be done, but Cooper, an opportunist, was the first to convert that knowledge into $200K. Many more knew it could be done on November 25, 1971.
True.
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G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"
This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.
If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.
377
Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. :)
That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.
Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???
Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.
Nuff said about that non-issue.
I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.
I have pointed out dozens of times that the 727s that Boeing modified so that the stairs could be lowered and closed routinely in flight probably had a different stairs control panel than the standard 727 airliner. Cooper also told Tina (after the argument with Rataczak) that he knew that a 727 could take off with the aft stairs down. Presumably, he meant that they were unlocked and lowered slightly but not dragging the runway.
It would only take one glimpse of a 727 doing just that for Cooper to know that it could be done. But the flaps and airspeed settings would have to come from some knowledgeable source. So Cooper did have some information about the 727 that would require a minimum amount of "research" for him to know. And that information would have to come from someone familiar with the results of the Boeing tests and/or the way those modified 727s were operated in SEA or wherever they were used.
Many may have known it could be done, but Cooper, an opportunist, was the first to convert that knowledge into $200K. Many more knew it could be done on November 25, 1971.
Others probably thought about it but backed off for one reason or another .... as far as is known.
If Cooper was a 'grunt' he may have been tipped off to the capabilities of the 727 by other grunts (who knew things) in Nam.
He would not be unique in having a grudge out of Vietnam - millions did.
But, I have to wonder about a guy that doesn't have any records or prints on file, in 1971! Something doesn't add up. Were prints and files of other hijackers as difficult to obtain as Cooper's? No one has ever addressed that issue.
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G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"
This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.
If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.
377
Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. :)
That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.
Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???
Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.
Nuff said about that non-issue.
I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.
I have pointed out dozens of times that the 727s that Boeing modified so that the stairs could be lowered and closed routinely in flight probably had a different stairs control panel than the standard 727 airliner. Cooper also told Tina (after the argument with Rataczak) that he knew that a 727 could take off with the aft stairs down. Presumably, he meant that they were unlocked and lowered slightly but not dragging the runway.
It would only take one glimpse of a 727 doing just that for Cooper to know that it could be done. But the flaps and airspeed settings would have to come from some knowledgeable source. So Cooper did have some information about the 727 that would require a minimum amount of "research" for him to know. And that information would have to come from someone familiar with the results of the Boeing tests and/or the way those modified 727s were operated in SEA or wherever they were used.
Many may have known it could be done, but Cooper, an opportunist, was the first to convert that knowledge into $200K. Many more knew it could be done on November 25, 1971.
Others probably thought about it but backed off for one reason or another .... as far as is known.
If Cooper was a 'grunt' he may have been tipped off to the capabilities of the 727 by other grunts (who knew things) in Nam.
He would not be unique in having a grudge out of Vietnam - millions did.
But, I have to wonder about a guy that doesn't have any records or prints on file, in 1971! Something doesn't add up. Were prints and files of other hijackers as difficult to obtain as Cooper's? No one has ever addressed that issue.
Retrieved From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_in_the_Korean_War
Accessed: March 12, 2016
The Canadian Forces were involved in the 1950–1953 Korean War conflict and its aftermath. Canada participated on the side of the United Nations in the Korean War, with 26,000 Canadians participating in the Korean War, and Canada sending eight destroyers.[1] Canadian aircraft provided transport, supply and logistics. 516 Canadians died in the conflict, 312 of the deaths were from combat.
After the war, Canadian troops remained for three years as military observers.
*****************************************
An event in time around the time Cooper would have been at the age of High School graduation. Pure speculation, but has some interesting possibilities to explore.
-
G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"
This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.
If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.
377
Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. :)
That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.
Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???
Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.
Nuff said about that non-issue.
I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.
I have pointed out dozens of times that the 727s that Boeing modified so that the stairs could be lowered and closed routinely in flight probably had a different stairs control panel than the standard 727 airliner. Cooper also told Tina (after the argument with Rataczak) that he knew that a 727 could take off with the aft stairs down. Presumably, he meant that they were unlocked and lowered slightly but not dragging the runway.
It would only take one glimpse of a 727 doing just that for Cooper to know that it could be done. But the flaps and airspeed settings would have to come from some knowledgeable source. So Cooper did have some information about the 727 that would require a minimum amount of "research" for him to know. And that information would have to come from someone familiar with the results of the Boeing tests and/or the way those modified 727s were operated in SEA or wherever they were used.
Many may have known it could be done, but Cooper, an opportunist, was the first to convert that knowledge into $200K. Many more knew it could be done on November 25, 1971.
Others probably thought about it but backed off for one reason or another .... as far as is known.
If Cooper was a 'grunt' he may have been tipped off to the capabilities of the 727 by other grunts (who knew things) in Nam.
He would not be unique in having a grudge out of Vietnam - millions did.
But, I have to wonder about a guy that doesn't have any records or prints on file, in 1971! Something doesn't add up. Were prints and files of other hijackers as difficult to obtain as Cooper's? No one has ever addressed that issue.
Retrieved From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_in_the_Korean_War
Accessed: March 12, 2016
The Canadian Forces were involved in the 1950–1953 Korean War conflict and its aftermath. Canada participated on the side of the United Nations in the Korean War, with 26,000 Canadians participating in the Korean War, and Canada sending eight destroyers.[1] Canadian aircraft provided transport, supply and logistics. 516 Canadians died in the conflict, 312 of the deaths were from combat.
After the war, Canadian troops remained for three years as military observers.
*****************************************
An event in time around the time Cooper would have been at the age of High School graduation. Pure speculation, but has some interesting possibilities to explore.
On December 26, 1971, a New Yorker with Canadian connections named Patrick Critton boarded a Toronto-bound DC-9 in Thunder Bay, which he then hijacked to Havana. Nearly 30 years later, Critton was still at large.
Critton's prints failed to turn up in any venue tried. Critton's name was run through the Canadian Police Information Computer, or CPIC, and came up dry. The American equivalent, known as NCIC was tried. Nothing. A driver's licence check in every province and state produced nothing. Supposed military records produced nothing.
Finally, in May 2001, Critton's name was typed into the internet search engine Google and a single entry appeared but this lead to employment records at several locations and eventually Critton's apprehension and arrest. Critton's case was settled through the legal system.
Critton's name was known all along. Eventually an employment application for Critton with a full set of finger prints (on a card) was located. Critton said he had filled out this application and several others and submitted to being finger printed several times in the intervening years and he explained 'I knew it would take years or never for anyone to make the connections'.
Critton is African-American. Photos etc are here: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=631&q=Patrick+Critton+hijacker&oq=Patrick+Critton+hijacker&gs_l=img.3...2149.6473.0.7334.10.3.0.7.0.0.93.258.3.3.0....0...1ac.1j2.64.img..0.2.175.sUHKmhd0eyU#imgrc=_
Bureaucracy plays a large role in settling these cases -
:)
-
G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"
This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.
If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.
377
Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. :)
That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.
Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???
Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.
Nuff said about that non-issue.
I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.
I have pointed out dozens of times that the 727s that Boeing modified so that the stairs could be lowered and closed routinely in flight probably had a different stairs control panel than the standard 727 airliner. Cooper also told Tina (after the argument with Rataczak) that he knew that a 727 could take off with the aft stairs down. Presumably, he meant that they were unlocked and lowered slightly but not dragging the runway.
It would only take one glimpse of a 727 doing just that for Cooper to know that it could be done. But the flaps and airspeed settings would have to come from some knowledgeable source. So Cooper did have some information about the 727 that would require a minimum amount of "research" for him to know. And that information would have to come from someone familiar with the results of the Boeing tests and/or the way those modified 727s were operated in SEA or wherever they were used.
Many may have known it could be done, but Cooper, an opportunist, was the first to convert that knowledge into $200K. Many more knew it could be done on November 25, 1971.
Others probably thought about it but backed off for one reason or another .... as far as is known.
If Cooper was a 'grunt' he may have been tipped off to the capabilities of the 727 by other grunts (who knew things) in Nam.
He would not be unique in having a grudge out of Vietnam - millions did.
But, I have to wonder about a guy that doesn't have any records or prints on file, in 1971! Something doesn't add up. Were prints and files of other hijackers as difficult to obtain as Cooper's? No one has ever addressed that issue.
Retrieved From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_in_the_Korean_War
Accessed: March 12, 2016
The Canadian Forces were involved in the 1950–1953 Korean War conflict and its aftermath. Canada participated on the side of the United Nations in the Korean War, with 26,000 Canadians participating in the Korean War, and Canada sending eight destroyers.[1] Canadian aircraft provided transport, supply and logistics. 516 Canadians died in the conflict, 312 of the deaths were from combat.
After the war, Canadian troops remained for three years as military observers.
*****************************************
An event in time around the time Cooper would have been at the age of High School graduation. Pure speculation, but has some interesting possibilities to explore.
On December 26, 1971, a New Yorker with Canadian connections named Patrick Critton boarded a Toronto-bound DC-9 in Thunder Bay, which he then hijacked to Havana. Nearly 30 years later, Critton was still at large.
Critton's prints failed to turn up in any venue tried. Critton's name was run through the Canadian Police Information Computer, or CPIC, and came up dry. The American equivalent, known as NCIC was tried. Nothing. A driver's licence check in every province and state produced nothing. Supposed military records produced nothing.
Finally, in May 2001, Critton's name was typed into the internet search engine Google and a single entry appeared but this lead to employment records at several locations and eventually Critton's apprehension and arrest. Critton's case was settled through the legal system.
Critton's name was known all along. Eventually an employment application for Critton with a full set of finger prints (on a card) was located. Critton said he had filled out this application and several others and submitted to being finger printed several times in the intervening years and he explained 'I knew it would take years or never for anyone to make the connections'.
Critton is African-American. Photos etc are here: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=631&q=Patrick+Critton+hijacker&oq=Patrick+Critton+hijacker&gs_l=img.3...2149.6473.0.7334.10.3.0.7.0.0.93.258.3.3.0....0...1ac.1j2.64.img..0.2.175.sUHKmhd0eyU#imgrc=_
Bureaucracy plays a large role in settling these cases -
:)
The system that beats the system.
-
G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"
This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.
If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.
377
Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. :)
That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.
Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???
Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.
Nuff said about that non-issue.
I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.
I have pointed out dozens of times that the 727s that Boeing modified so that the stairs could be lowered and closed routinely in flight probably had a different stairs control panel than the standard 727 airliner. Cooper also told Tina (after the argument with Rataczak) that he knew that a 727 could take off with the aft stairs down. Presumably, he meant that they were unlocked and lowered slightly but not dragging the runway.
It would only take one glimpse of a 727 doing just that for Cooper to know that it could be done. But the flaps and airspeed settings would have to come from some knowledgeable source. So Cooper did have some information about the 727 that would require a minimum amount of "research" for him to know. And that information would have to come from someone familiar with the results of the Boeing tests and/or the way those modified 727s were operated in SEA or wherever they were used.
Many may have known it could be done, but Cooper, an opportunist, was the first to convert that knowledge into $200K. Many more knew it could be done on November 25, 1971.
Others probably thought about it but backed off for one reason or another .... as far as is known.
If Cooper was a 'grunt' he may have been tipped off to the capabilities of the 727 by other grunts (who knew things) in Nam.
He would not be unique in having a grudge out of Vietnam - millions did.
But, I have to wonder about a guy that doesn't have any records or prints on file, in 1971! Something doesn't add up. Were prints and files of other hijackers as difficult to obtain as Cooper's? No one has ever addressed that issue.
Retrieved From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_in_the_Korean_War
Accessed: March 12, 2016
The Canadian Forces were involved in the 1950–1953 Korean War conflict and its aftermath. Canada participated on the side of the United Nations in the Korean War, with 26,000 Canadians participating in the Korean War, and Canada sending eight destroyers.[1] Canadian aircraft provided transport, supply and logistics. 516 Canadians died in the conflict, 312 of the deaths were from combat.
After the war, Canadian troops remained for three years as military observers.
*****************************************
An event in time around the time Cooper would have been at the age of High School graduation. Pure speculation, but has some interesting possibilities to explore.
On December 26, 1971, a New Yorker with Canadian connections named Patrick Critton boarded a Toronto-bound DC-9 in Thunder Bay, which he then hijacked to Havana. Nearly 30 years later, Critton was still at large.
Critton's prints failed to turn up in any venue tried. Critton's name was run through the Canadian Police Information Computer, or CPIC, and came up dry. The American equivalent, known as NCIC was tried. Nothing. A driver's licence check in every province and state produced nothing. Supposed military records produced nothing.
Finally, in May 2001, Critton's name was typed into the internet search engine Google and a single entry appeared but this lead to employment records at several locations and eventually Critton's apprehension and arrest. Critton's case was settled through the legal system.
Critton's name was known all along. Eventually an employment application for Critton with a full set of finger prints (on a card) was located. Critton said he had filled out this application and several others and submitted to being finger printed several times in the intervening years and he explained 'I knew it would take years or never for anyone to make the connections'.
Critton is African-American. Photos etc are here: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=631&q=Patrick+Critton+hijacker&oq=Patrick+Critton+hijacker&gs_l=img.3...2149.6473.0.7334.10.3.0.7.0.0.93.258.3.3.0....0...1ac.1j2.64.img..0.2.175.sUHKmhd0eyU#imgrc=_
Bureaucracy plays a large role in settling these cases -
:)
The system that beats the system.
+1 :) This one example helps clarify several issues: that Cooper was the one-and-only person who 'got away' in a hijacking in 1971, and that there was some fully functioning 'system' which law enforcement could just access to glean basic information about suspects to go and apprehend somebody and arrest them forthwith. No system of that kind existed in 1971-72, and wouldn't exist for years to come, not even for the FBI in spite of the fact there were paper trails and repositories of records in all kinds of places - just accessing those systems was a major pain in the ass and took tons of time and manpower and no small amount of luck! It wouldn't matter how good (or bad) a detective was or how many detectives; the results could be negative even in the best of cases.
One essential problem was paper, storage, and indexing to be able to do manual searches in the decades leading up to the computer age.
And I have only touched the tip of the iceberg on this subject. :o
[edit] It is worth noting that even though LE knew who the hijacker was, at no time during the search for Critton was LE able to get Critton's finger prints out of various systems to compare to prints on a ginger ale bottle Critton had left on the plane. Only during the late stage of the investigation did this become possible due to new computerized print systems set up by the FBI coordinated with others. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Critton
-
G wrote:"I have always said the full range of knowledge that 727s were being flown and jumped ... was even broader than you think. Enough to be common knowledge especially for anyone serving in the Vietnam theatre. Smith's ideology about "top level secret" is shear nonsense and a product of his mind/agenda only!"
This is anecdotal, but I spoke with one RVNA paratrooper (who also did sport jumping with the Saigon Sport Parachute Club), one US Army helicopter pilot with extensive Vietnam combat experience and one USAF C-141 pilot who flew on and out of Vietnam frequently. Not one of them had heard about the SAT 727 jumps in Thailand while they served. This kinda surprised me. It's not a statistically valid sample or survey method but it makes me wonder who knew. I would have bet high odds that the RVNA paratrooper would have heard about it, and I would have lost.
If it was so widely known, why didn't the NWA crew or the ops folks at NWA HQ know that a 727 could be jumped? They had to call Boeing to get the answer. There is NOTHING in all my 727 manuals that even hints that the plane can be safely flown with the stairs deployed.
377
Maybe you have talked to all the wrong people so your sample is skewed? I talked to common ordinary people. :)
That's actually not unusual. It's been my experience that the higher up you go at Rockwell engineering the dumber and less informed people get ... while arrogance goes up exponentially ... and that's a fact Jact! A few years ago trying to settle explosive disputes over a light switch I told these people what they need most was a "psychiatrist"! And not one of them laughed.
Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???
Soldiers in Nam knew what missions were being flown in or out of various bases - including in Thailand. If Joe Blo knew about it 10,000 Jo Blows knew about it ... this was like 'the number of missiles in a pod' ... you could stand there and see them, count them, et cetera ... you just could not legally photograph them, talk about them, etc. ... and so the story goes.
Nuff said about that non-issue.
I have no doubt, and I am not surprised at all, that all of the 'right' people knew nothing about the stairs or jumps or cargo drops off a 727. That is frankly more predictable than snow in winter in Alaska! And you would have to file forms in triplicate and go through 50 committees and commissions just for asking! That is how the REAL WORLD works! The common ordinary world works by different rules in a different way ... and has common sense.
I have pointed out dozens of times that the 727s that Boeing modified so that the stairs could be lowered and closed routinely in flight probably had a different stairs control panel than the standard 727 airliner. Cooper also told Tina (after the argument with Rataczak) that he knew that a 727 could take off with the aft stairs down. Presumably, he meant that they were unlocked and lowered slightly but not dragging the runway.
It would only take one glimpse of a 727 doing just that for Cooper to know that it could be done. But the flaps and airspeed settings would have to come from some knowledgeable source. So Cooper did have some information about the 727 that would require a minimum amount of "research" for him to know. And that information would have to come from someone familiar with the results of the Boeing tests and/or the way those modified 727s were operated in SEA or wherever they were used.
Many may have known it could be done, but Cooper, an opportunist, was the first to convert that knowledge into $200K. Many more knew it could be done on November 25, 1971.
Others probably thought about it but backed off for one reason or another .... as far as is known.
If Cooper was a 'grunt' he may have been tipped off to the capabilities of the 727 by other grunts (who knew things) in Nam.
He would not be unique in having a grudge out of Vietnam - millions did.
But, I have to wonder about a guy that doesn't have any records or prints on file, in 1971! Something doesn't add up. Were prints and files of other hijackers as difficult to obtain as Cooper's? No one has ever addressed that issue.
Retrieved From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canada_in_the_Korean_War
Accessed: March 12, 2016
The Canadian Forces were involved in the 1950–1953 Korean War conflict and its aftermath. Canada participated on the side of the United Nations in the Korean War, with 26,000 Canadians participating in the Korean War, and Canada sending eight destroyers.[1] Canadian aircraft provided transport, supply and logistics. 516 Canadians died in the conflict, 312 of the deaths were from combat.
After the war, Canadian troops remained for three years as military observers.
*****************************************
An event in time around the time Cooper would have been at the age of High School graduation. Pure speculation, but has some interesting possibilities to explore.
On December 26, 1971, a New Yorker with Canadian connections named Patrick Critton boarded a Toronto-bound DC-9 in Thunder Bay, which he then hijacked to Havana. Nearly 30 years later, Critton was still at large.
Critton's prints failed to turn up in any venue tried. Critton's name was run through the Canadian Police Information Computer, or CPIC, and came up dry. The American equivalent, known as NCIC was tried. Nothing. A driver's licence check in every province and state produced nothing. Supposed military records produced nothing.
Finally, in May 2001, Critton's name was typed into the internet search engine Google and a single entry appeared but this lead to employment records at several locations and eventually Critton's apprehension and arrest. Critton's case was settled through the legal system.
Critton's name was known all along. Eventually an employment application for Critton with a full set of finger prints (on a card) was located. Critton said he had filled out this application and several others and submitted to being finger printed several times in the intervening years and he explained 'I knew it would take years or never for anyone to make the connections'.
Critton is African-American. Photos etc are here: https://www.google.com/search?hl=en&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1024&bih=631&q=Patrick+Critton+hijacker&oq=Patrick+Critton+hijacker&gs_l=img.3...2149.6473.0.7334.10.3.0.7.0.0.93.258.3.3.0....0...1ac.1j2.64.img..0.2.175.sUHKmhd0eyU#imgrc=_
Bureaucracy plays a large role in settling these cases -
:)
The system that beats the system.
+1 :) This one example helps clarify several issues: that Cooper was the one-and-only person who 'got away' in a hijacking in 1971, and that there was some fully functioning 'system' which law enforcement could just access to glean basic information about suspects to go and apprehend somebody and arrest them forthwith. No system of that kind existed in 1971-72, and wouldn't exist for years to come, not even for the FBI in spite of the fact there were paper trails and repositories of records in all kinds of places - just accessing those systems was a major pain in the ass and took tons of time and manpower and no small amount of luck! It wouldn't matter how good (or bad) a detective was or how many detectives; the results could be negative even in the best of cases.
One essential problem was paper, storage, and indexing to be able to do manual searches in the decades leading up to the computer age.
And I have only touched the tip of the iceberg on this subject. :o
[edit] It is worth noting that even though LE knew who the hijacker was, at no time during the search for Critton was LE able to get Critton's finger prints out of various systems to compare to prints on a ginger ale bottle Critton had left on the plane. Only during the late stage of the investigation did this become possible due to new computerized print systems set up by the FBI coordinated with others. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Critton
Granted - capabilities are exponentially far superior than in the early 70’s, however the fly in the ointment is the human operators of the system are not infallible. Garbage in – garbage out, jurisdictional boundaries, allocation of resources, ineptitude, corruption, etc..... The main weakness may be the cloak of impunity granted to some in the system or “friends” of those in the system. A polite considerate calm smooth talker with special mannerisms like Cooper as he is described by witnesses may have all the prerequisites to wiggle out of a situation that may get himself fingerprinted or DNA sample taken.
If and when Coopers true identity is released publically my top theory is he will be in the system (or was in) and a “friend” of the system looking for him, hiding in plain sight right under the noses of those charged with the responsibility of finding him. That’s where to look for him, in the dark cracks of a broken system, preying on weaknesses in human character.
The system that beats the system.
-
. . . . . . . . . .
+1 :) This one example helps clarify several issues: that Cooper was the one-and-only person who 'got away' in a hijacking in 1971, and that there was some fully functioning 'system' which law enforcement could just access to glean basic information about suspects to go and apprehend somebody and arrest them forthwith. No system of that kind existed in 1971-72, and wouldn't exist for years to come, not even for the FBI in spite of the fact there were paper trails and repositories of records in all kinds of places - just accessing those systems was a major pain in the ass and took tons of time and manpower and no small amount of luck! It wouldn't matter how good (or bad) a detective was or how many detectives; the results could be negative even in the best of cases.
One essential problem was paper, storage, and indexing to be able to do manual searches in the decades leading up to the computer age.
And I have only touched the tip of the iceberg on this subject. :o
[edit] It is worth noting that even though LE knew who the hijacker was, at no time during the search for Critton was LE able to get Critton's finger prints out of various systems to compare to prints on a ginger ale bottle Critton had left on the plane. Only during the late stage of the investigation did this become possible due to new computerized print systems set up by the FBI coordinated with others. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Critton
Granted - capabilities are exponentially far superior than in the early 70’s, however the fly in the ointment is the human operators of the system are not infallible. Garbage in – garbage out, jurisdictional boundaries, allocation of resources, ineptitude, corruption, etc..... The main weakness may be the cloak of impunity granted to some in the system or “friends” of those in the system. A polite considerate calm smooth talker with special mannerisms like Cooper as he is described by witnesses may have all the prerequisites to wiggle out of a situation that may get himself fingerprinted or DNA sample taken.
If and when Coopers true identity is released publically my top theory is he will be in the system (or was in) and a “friend” of the system looking for him, hiding in plain sight right under the noses of those charged with the responsibility of finding him. That’s where to look for him, in the dark cracks of a broken system, preying on weaknesses in human character.
The system that beats the system.
There is clear evidence that efforts have been made by government types to cover up some of the evidence in the Cooper case. This includes deletions from both the FBI and FAA records.
Further, people who have made a detailed study of the ARINC teletypewriter records have told me that some of those records are also missing.
Consequently, the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from this is that some government people were not as interested in solving the Cooper matter as you might think.
Robert99
-
. . . . . . . . . .
+1 :) This one example helps clarify several issues: that Cooper was the one-and-only person who 'got away' in a hijacking in 1971, and that there was some fully functioning 'system' which law enforcement could just access to glean basic information about suspects to go and apprehend somebody and arrest them forthwith. No system of that kind existed in 1971-72, and wouldn't exist for years to come, not even for the FBI in spite of the fact there were paper trails and repositories of records in all kinds of places - just accessing those systems was a major pain in the ass and took tons of time and manpower and no small amount of luck! It wouldn't matter how good (or bad) a detective was or how many detectives; the results could be negative even in the best of cases.
One essential problem was paper, storage, and indexing to be able to do manual searches in the decades leading up to the computer age.
And I have only touched the tip of the iceberg on this subject. :o
[edit] It is worth noting that even though LE knew who the hijacker was, at no time during the search for Critton was LE able to get Critton's finger prints out of various systems to compare to prints on a ginger ale bottle Critton had left on the plane. Only during the late stage of the investigation did this become possible due to new computerized print systems set up by the FBI coordinated with others. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Critton
Granted - capabilities are exponentially far superior than in the early 70’s, however the fly in the ointment is the human operators of the system are not infallible. Garbage in – garbage out, jurisdictional boundaries, allocation of resources, ineptitude, corruption, etc..... The main weakness may be the cloak of impunity granted to some in the system or “friends” of those in the system. A polite considerate calm smooth talker with special mannerisms like Cooper as he is described by witnesses may have all the prerequisites to wiggle out of a situation that may get himself fingerprinted or DNA sample taken.
If and when Coopers true identity is released publically my top theory is he will be in the system (or was in) and a “friend” of the system looking for him, hiding in plain sight right under the noses of those charged with the responsibility of finding him. That’s where to look for him, in the dark cracks of a broken system, preying on weaknesses in human character.
The system that beats the system.
There is clear evidence that efforts have been made by government types to cover up some of the evidence in the Cooper case. This includes deletions from both the FBI and FAA records.
Further, people who have made a detailed study of the ARINC teletypewriter records have told me that some of those records are also missing.
Consequently, the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from this is that some government people were not as interested in solving the Cooper matter as you might think.
Robert99
Everything you and Prospector says may be true, but, the one thing that got Critton out of the system, as it were, was his leaving the system, ie. his successful hijack to Cuba where the Cuban's put him in jail! Then released him to go to Africa and other places prior to finally coming back to North America where in time the past caught up with him precisely because, someone(s) picked up the chase again ... and there he was in plain sight, more-or-less. Through all of that nobody had been able to get a set of prints on the guy to match to the pop bottle Critton left on the plane. So there were systems conflicting and unknowingly cooperating to Critton's advantage for a while. Then 'the system' picked him back up. It's never just one system, but many systems and people and facts in systems. The Cubans gave Critton sanctuary in their jail then Critton himself was smart enough to leave to Africa, then he erred thinking our system had forgotten him.
This is why I go back to Flo's evaluation that Cooper was of "Latin descent". Because if that is true, this could take Cooper 'out of the system'. Or, it could move him into another system the net effect of which is to raise this guy into the murky territory of 'competition between agencies' and an international personality where rules are different. Unlike Critton, Cooper could have stayed out of the system forever and vanished without a trace, under that scenario alone.
Or he could have been killed in the Shillapoo with the only trace left, several bundles of his money eventually flowing to Tina Bar a short distance away!
If you recall, Ckret jumped on the idea of a Cooper Comic and he went to the trouble of finding and interviewing Irwin Weinberg in Belgium, on the premise of a possible international connection. A person with racial traits or possibly Latin or Greek origin who spent time in Canada ... just as Critton did. But who perhaps made it out of the country or lost his soul somewhere near enough the Columbia to have some of his money wind up found on Tina Bar.
Lots of options and possibilities.
I think there is a strong possibility that Cooper left 'the system' one way or another. And he was not a person who spent time philosophizing about 'the system that beats the system', but he was a person who actually did it without any talk or mouthy pronouncements about some 'abstract cause'.
If he survived the jump and was trying to walk his way back to Portland aloof without raising notice, that may have been a fatal mistake. Every law enforcement person or agent Ive ever talked to who knew the situation below Vancouver near the Columbia, thinks there is a very high possibility that Cooper could have been encountered and stopped and wound up in the Columbia with his money scattered, some to wind up on Tina Bar by one means or another.
-
. . . . . . . . . .
+1 :) This one example helps clarify several issues: that Cooper was the one-and-only person who 'got away' in a hijacking in 1971, and that there was some fully functioning 'system' which law enforcement could just access to glean basic information about suspects to go and apprehend somebody and arrest them forthwith. No system of that kind existed in 1971-72, and wouldn't exist for years to come, not even for the FBI in spite of the fact there were paper trails and repositories of records in all kinds of places - just accessing those systems was a major pain in the ass and took tons of time and manpower and no small amount of luck! It wouldn't matter how good (or bad) a detective was or how many detectives; the results could be negative even in the best of cases.
One essential problem was paper, storage, and indexing to be able to do manual searches in the decades leading up to the computer age.
And I have only touched the tip of the iceberg on this subject. :o
[edit] It is worth noting that even though LE knew who the hijacker was, at no time during the search for Critton was LE able to get Critton's finger prints out of various systems to compare to prints on a ginger ale bottle Critton had left on the plane. Only during the late stage of the investigation did this become possible due to new computerized print systems set up by the FBI coordinated with others. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Critton
Granted - capabilities are exponentially far superior than in the early 70’s, however the fly in the ointment is the human operators of the system are not infallible. Garbage in – garbage out, jurisdictional boundaries, allocation of resources, ineptitude, corruption, etc..... The main weakness may be the cloak of impunity granted to some in the system or “friends” of those in the system. A polite considerate calm smooth talker with special mannerisms like Cooper as he is described by witnesses may have all the prerequisites to wiggle out of a situation that may get himself fingerprinted or DNA sample taken.
If and when Coopers true identity is released publically my top theory is he will be in the system (or was in) and a “friend” of the system looking for him, hiding in plain sight right under the noses of those charged with the responsibility of finding him. That’s where to look for him, in the dark cracks of a broken system, preying on weaknesses in human character.
The system that beats the system.
There is clear evidence that efforts have been made by government types to cover up some of the evidence in the Cooper case. This includes deletions from both the FBI and FAA records.
Further, people who have made a detailed study of the ARINC teletypewriter records have told me that some of those records are also missing.
Consequently, the only logical conclusion that can be drawn from this is that some government people were not as interested in solving the Cooper matter as you might think.
Robert99
Everything you and Prospector says may be true, but, the one thing that got Critton out of the system, as it were, was his leaving the system, ie. his successful hijack to Cuba where the Cuban's put him in jail! Then released him to go to Africa and other places prior to finally coming back to North America where in time the past caught up with him precisely because, someone(s) picked up the chase again ... and there he was in plain sight, more-or-less. Through all of that nobody had been able to get a set of prints on the guy to match to the pop bottle Critton left on the plane. So there were systems conflicting and unknowingly cooperating to Critton's advantage for a while. Then 'the system' picked him back up. It's never just one system, but many systems and people and facts in systems. The Cubans gave Critton sanctuary in their jail then Critton himself was smart enough to leave to Africa, then he erred thinking our system had forgotten him.
This is why I go back to Flo's evaluation that Cooper was of "Latin descent". Because if that is true, this could take Cooper 'out of the system'. Or, it could move him into another system the net effect of which is to raise this guy into the murky territory of 'competition between agencies' and an international personality where rules are different. Unlike Critton, Cooper could have stayed out of the system forever and vanished without a trace, under that scenario alone.
Or he could have been killed in the Shillapoo with the only trace left, several bundles of his money eventually flowing to Tina Bar a short distance away!
If you recall, Ckret jumped on the idea of a Cooper Comic and he went to the trouble of finding and interviewing Irwin Weinberg in Belgium, on the premise of a possible international connection. A person with racial traits or possibly Latin or Greek origin who spent time in Canada ... just as Critton did. But who perhaps made it out of the country or lost his soul somewhere near enough the Columbia to have some of his money wind up found on Tina Bar.
Lots of options and possibilities.
I think there is a strong possibility that Cooper left 'the system' one way or another. And he was not a person who spent time philosophizing about 'the system that beats the system', but he was a person who actually did it without any talk or mouthy pronouncements about some 'abstract cause'.
If he survived the jump and was trying to walk his way back to Portland aloof without raising notice, that may have been a fatal mistake. Every law enforcement person or agent Ive ever talked to who knew the situation below Vancouver near the Columbia, thinks there is a very high possibility that Cooper could have been encountered and stopped and wound up in the Columbia with his money scattered, some to wind up on Tina Bar by one means or another.
Good time to insert this into the discussion as it ties-in somewhat with the international aspects, Apologies if this has been posted before.
http://www.cbc.ca/allinaweekend/television/2014/09/06/in-search-of-dan-cooper-canadian-comic-book-hero/
Points of interest:
‘Shrine’ to Dan Cooper at Canadian AFB.
Dan Cooper - ordinary guy with extraordinary skill set in aviation.
How Dan Cooper got his identity.
Dan Cooper - champion of ethical integrity and all that is good.
No mention of the evil Dan Cooper.
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Interesting avoidance of R99's above post, drawing attention to intentional deceit in Norjak, ie: the sanitizing of flight transcripts.
Wassup wid dat, Cooper sleuths?
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Interesting avoidance of R99's above post, drawing attention to intentional deceit in Norjak, ie: the sanitizing of flight transcripts.
Wassup wid dat, Cooper sleuths?
Bruce, As I understand your first sentence above, you are saying that Georger and Prospector are avoiding what I wrote in my post. I don't see any basis for your comment since the three of us are discussing how an individual (such as Cooper) can "leave the system", and maybe reenter it at some future time, without actually leaving clues behind that law enforcement people can pursue. And law enforcement people may not be interested in pursuing those clues in the first place.
In the case of Cooper, it is a mystery to me that the Seattle ATC radio transcripts were so heavily redacted that you can't determine the airliner's actual flight path from those transcripts. Compare the Seattle ATC transcripts with the Oakland ATC and Reno transcripts.
The redactions were done relatively early in the investigation (probably the first year or two) and may have had the purpose of preventing other people from searching for Cooper. Or maybe they solved the whole case, know Cooper's name, and know what happened to him, but just don't want the information to become public knowledge.
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Interesting avoidance of R99's above post, drawing attention to intentional deceit in Norjak, ie: the sanitizing of flight transcripts.
Wassup wid dat, Cooper sleuths?
Not avoidance, duly noted – just falling further into the rabbit hole. Sometimes it takes a little time to process certain information and determine how it connects to the facts as understood. It poses a menacing question.
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The redactions were done relatively early in the investigation (probably the first year or two) and may have had the purpose of preventing other people from searching for Cooper. Or maybe they solved the whole case, know Cooper's name, and know what happened to him, but just don't want the information to become public knowledge.
Not sure the FBI appreciates the annual "Look at this case the FBI couldn't solve" news cycle right before they visit family on Thanksgiving. However, it wouldn't surprise me if the FBI had a short list of people they thought were Cooper, but never talk about because they don't have actionable evidence.
Larry Carr opening the case to the public and Agent Eng's "Best candidate ever" remark vis-a-vis LD Cooper contraindicate this hypothesis.
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The redactions were done relatively early in the investigation (probably the first year or two) and may have had the purpose of preventing other people from searching for Cooper. Or maybe they solved the whole case, know Cooper's name, and know what happened to him, but just don't want the information to become public knowledge.
Not sure the FBI appreciates the annual "Look at this case the FBI couldn't solve" news cycle right before they visit family on Thanksgiving. However, it wouldn't surprise me if the FBI had a short list of people they thought were Cooper, but never talk about because they don't have actionable evidence.
Larry Carr opening the case to the public and Agent Eng's "Best candidate ever" remark vis-a-vis LD Cooper contraindicate this hypothesis.
Or there is an even worse deeper conspiracy theory - the FBI knows who Cooper was but can't reveal it for reasons of national security and is now looking for a shill ... viola Ckret surfaces with a phony cover ... then LD! and the whole thing blows up due to incompetence and constipation of the pamajeon. ! Ain't that right, Smith! ? Huh? Huh? Whaddayatink? Huh? More lobotomized maldum for the fornax. ;) :) In other words, it's all sexual! ::)
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andrade1812 You say: "Not sure the FBI appreciates the annual "Look at this case the FBI couldn't solve" news cycle right before they visit family on Thanksgiving. However, it wouldn't surprise me if the FBI had a short list of people they thought were Cooper, but never talk about because they don't have actionable evidence."
I asy: Well the Seattle FBI Office has all they need to solve the case now as I gave Ayn Dirtrich in the Seattle FBI Office all the info they need to solve the case and she replied to me that she had passed my information on to the Seattle FBI "Case Agent".
The heart of my information was that Sheridan Peterson's Alibi to his where about at the time of Norjak was phony and my information was the FLAW in the Alibi that he was in Nepal delivering one of his two children (a requirement of their Female Doctor that all men should deliver their own children) and could not been at the scene of the crime for Norjak.
The FLAW was that neither of his two children were born in the year of Norjak (1971) but were born in: Son 1970 and the Daughter in 1972 and in Nepal per persopo.com.
That completely blows Sheridan's Alibi and the FBI can use that lie to the FBI (a Federal Crime) to trade for no jail time if Sheridan tells the rest of the DB Cooper story.
So, maybe by this Thanksgiving the FBI will have finally solved the Norjak case. If not then it looks like a FBI cover-up as they have all they need. CASE SOLVED or why else would Sheridan have told a lie to the FBI about his where about during Norjak?
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Georger wrote: "Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???"
I have a different opinion. That extended stair is like a big elevator surface and could cause a substantial pitch down force. Not a big deal you might say, elevator trim could compensate for it. Imagine the stairs becoming unloaded/loaded and changing position as the autopilot commands an elevator angle change. What if it triggered an autopilot (or pilot caused) pitch oscillation that became divergent? It would depend on a lot of factors, autopilot servo response times, stair extension spring force and damping, etc. You could also get the stairs themselves wildly oscillating up and down and possibly breaking. You could even get flutter which can go from mild to wild and massively destructive in less than a second.
As to the ability of the 727 to operate safely with the stairs extended, the cockpit crew didn't know. NWA ops didnt know. Boeing, however, did know.
If it was so obvious (G called the extended stairs a "fig leaf" on a .... very powerful acft) why would extensive flight tests have been needed?
What does Sailshaw think? He was a Boeing engineer. We have some other engineers reading this. Your thoughts?
I do not think it was obvious that the 727 could fly safely with the stairs extended. I do not think it was widely known or easily deducible that the stairs could be deployed in flight. It would have been easy for Boeing to have put in a landing gear squat switch activated interlock preventing airstair door opening after liftoff. I think Cooper knew it could be opened. How did he know?
377
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Georger wrote: "Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???"
I have a different opinion. That extended stair is like a big elevator surface and could cause a substantial pitch down force. Not a big deal you might say, elevator trim could compensate for it. Imagine the stairs becoming unloaded/loaded and changing position as the autopilot commands an elevator angle change. What if it triggered an autopilot (or pilot caused) pitch oscillation that became divergent? It would depend on a lot of factors, autopilot servo response times, stair extension spring force and damping, etc. You could also get the stairs themselves wildly oscillating up and down and possibly breaking. You could even get flutter which can go from mild to wild and massively destructive in less than a second.
As to the ability of the 727 to operate safely with the stairs extended, the cockpit crew didn't know. NWA ops didnt know. Boeing, however, did know.
If it was so obvious (G called the extended stairs a "fig leaf" on a .... very powerful acft) why would extensive flight tests have been needed?
What does Sailshaw think? He was a Boeing engineer. We have some other engineers reading this. Your thoughts?
I do not think it was obvious that the 727 could fly safely with the stairs extended. I do not think it was widely known or easily deducible that the stairs could be deployed in flight. It would have been easy for Boeing to have put in a landing gear squat switch activated interlock preventing airstair door opening after liftoff. I think Cooper knew it could be opened. How did he know?
377
My suspicion is the 727 was designed precisely with that rear cargo deployment capability in mind. Either that or its the happiest coincidence since the invention of the 'nose'. But who knows ...
Follow the money - R&D - procedures in place for removal of the stairs (direct access to the hole) - and the list goes on. People claiming not to know about this matter IN A PUBLIC FORUM ON THE RADIO - IN THE MIDDLE OF A HIJACKING! - should taken with a grain of salt. Isn't a little like when God was asked about the "nose" and the "penis" by CNN? God replied, "What nose! I'm busy with the Babylonians right now. Call me later. I never heard of it before!". :D
Engineers are the last people to know about or admit to - anything!
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Georger wrote: "Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???"
I have a different opinion. That extended stair is like a big elevator surface and could cause a substantial pitch down force. Not a big deal you might say, elevator trim could compensate for it. Imagine the stairs becoming unloaded/loaded and changing position as the autopilot commands an elevator angle change. What if it triggered an autopilot (or pilot caused) pitch oscillation that became divergent? It would depend on a lot of factors, autopilot servo response times, stair extension spring force and damping, etc. You could also get the stairs themselves wildly oscillating up and down and possibly breaking. You could even get flutter which can go from mild to wild and massively destructive in less than a second.
As to the ability of the 727 to operate safely with the stairs extended, the cockpit crew didn't know. NWA ops didnt know. Boeing, however, did know.
If it was so obvious (G called the extended stairs a "fig leaf" on a .... very powerful acft) why would extensive flight tests have been needed?
What does Sailshaw think? He was a Boeing engineer. We have some other engineers reading this. Your thoughts?
I do not think it was obvious that the 727 could fly safely with the stairs extended. I do not think it was widely known or easily deducible that the stairs could be deployed in flight. It would have been easy for Boeing to have put in a landing gear squat switch activated interlock preventing airstair door opening after liftoff. I think Cooper knew it could be opened. How did he know?
377
My suspicion is the 727 was designed precisely with that rear cargo deployment capability in mind. Either that or its the happiest coincidence since the invention of the 'nose'. But who knows ...
Follow the money - R&D - procedures in place for removal of the stairs (direct access to the hole) - and the list goes on. People claiming not to know about this matter IN A PUBLIC FORUM ON THE RADIO - IN THE MIDDLE OF A HIJACKING! - should taken with a grain of salt. Isn't a little like when God was asked about the "nose" by CNN? God replied, "What nose! I'm busy with the Babylonians right now. Call me later.". :D
The 727's configuration is very easy to convert to a cargo delivery capability through the rear stairs opening even if it wasn't specifically designed for that.
As Georger says, the best way to answer some of the questions here is to follow the path back to the source of the R&D money.
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Georger wrote: "Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???"
I have a different opinion. That extended stair is like a big elevator surface and could cause a substantial pitch down force. Not a big deal you might say, elevator trim could compensate for it. Imagine the stairs becoming unloaded/loaded and changing position as the autopilot commands an elevator angle change. What if it triggered an autopilot (or pilot caused) pitch oscillation that became divergent? It would depend on a lot of factors, autopilot servo response times, stair extension spring force and damping, etc. You could also get the stairs themselves wildly oscillating up and down and possibly breaking. You could even get flutter which can go from mild to wild and massively destructive in less than a second.
As to the ability of the 727 to operate safely with the stairs extended, the cockpit crew didn't know. NWA ops didnt know. Boeing, however, did know.
If it was so obvious (G called the extended stairs a "fig leaf" on a .... very powerful acft) why would extensive flight tests have been needed?
What does Sailshaw think? He was a Boeing engineer. We have some other engineers reading this. Your thoughts?
I do not think it was obvious that the 727 could fly safely with the stairs extended. I do not think it was widely known or easily deducible that the stairs could be deployed in flight. It would have been easy for Boeing to have put in a landing gear squat switch activated interlock preventing airstair door opening after liftoff. I think Cooper knew it could be opened. How did he know?
377
My suspicion is the 727 was designed precisely with that rear cargo deployment capability in mind. Either that or its the happiest coincidence since the invention of the 'nose'. But who knows ...
Follow the money - R&D - procedures in place for removal of the stairs (direct access to the hole) - and the list goes on. People claiming not to know about this matter IN A PUBLIC FORUM ON THE RADIO - IN THE MIDDLE OF A HIJACKING! - should taken with a grain of salt. Isn't a little like when God was asked about the "nose" by CNN? God replied, "What nose! I'm busy with the Babylonians right now. Call me later.". :D
The 727's configuration is very easy to convert to a cargo delivery capability through the rear stairs opening even if it wasn't specifically designed for that.
As Georger says, the best way to answer some of the questions here is to follow the path back to the source of the R&D money.
Boeing wasn't the only aircraft designer, going back to the 1950's and military needs/projections on the world stage. It was inevitable we would need efficient-flexible delivery systems which also had commercial utility. The French were bogged down in So-East Asia, we were going to help France and intervene, So-East Asia was going to be the new proving ground for all kinds of technology and politics. The stage was set. The 727 was designed with those needs in mind... Im surprised they didn't press the Wright flyer and the Curtis Jenny into service in Vietnam ... along with the French Nieuport (what a plane!!!) ... :)
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Georger wrote: "Except for take off and landing is there anything aerodynamically crucial about the stairs being out ? No. It wouldn't take much of an engineer to see that. The stairs are a fig leaf attached to a very functional very powerful aircraft! What's the secret about that! ???"
I have a different opinion. That extended stair is like a big elevator surface and could cause a substantial pitch down force. Not a big deal you might say, elevator trim could compensate for it. Imagine the stairs becoming unloaded/loaded and changing position as the autopilot commands an elevator angle change. What if it triggered an autopilot (or pilot caused) pitch oscillation that became divergent? It would depend on a lot of factors, autopilot servo response times, stair extension spring force and damping, etc. You could also get the stairs themselves wildly oscillating up and down and possibly breaking. You could even get flutter which can go from mild to wild and massively destructive in less than a second.
As to the ability of the 727 to operate safely with the stairs extended, the cockpit crew didn't know. NWA ops didnt know. Boeing, however, did know.
If it was so obvious (G called the extended stairs a "fig leaf" on a .... very powerful acft) why would extensive flight tests have been needed?
What does Sailshaw think? He was a Boeing engineer. We have some other engineers reading this. Your thoughts?
I do not think it was obvious that the 727 could fly safely with the stairs extended. I do not think it was widely known or easily deducible that the stairs could be deployed in flight. It would have been easy for Boeing to have put in a landing gear squat switch activated interlock preventing airstair door opening after liftoff. I think Cooper knew it could be opened. How did he know?
377
My suspicion is the 727 was designed precisely with that rear cargo deployment capability in mind. Either that or its the happiest coincidence since the invention of the 'nose'. But who knows ...
Follow the money - R&D - procedures in place for removal of the stairs (direct access to the hole) - and the list goes on. People claiming not to know about this matter IN A PUBLIC FORUM ON THE RADIO - IN THE MIDDLE OF A HIJACKING! - should taken with a grain of salt. Isn't a little like when God was asked about the "nose" by CNN? God replied, "What nose! I'm busy with the Babylonians right now. Call me later.". :D
The 727's configuration is very easy to convert to a cargo delivery capability through the rear stairs opening even if it wasn't specifically designed for that.
As Georger says, the best way to answer some of the questions here is to follow the path back to the source of the R&D money.
Boeing wasn't the only aircraft designer, going back to the 1950's and military needs/projections on the world stage. It was inevitable we would need efficient-flexible delivery systems which also had commercial utility. The French were bogged down in So-East Asia, we were going to help France and intervene, So-East Asia was going to be the new proving ground for all kinds of technology and politics. The stage was set. The 727 was designed with those needs in mind... Im surprised they didn't press the Wright flyer and the Curtis Jenny into service in Vietnam ... along with the French Nieuport (what a plane!!!) ... :)
I think the 727 (about a 2000 mile range at best) was mainly designed to fill the gaps that weren't economical for the 707 (with a 3000+ mile range) to serve.
Plenty of ex-WW2 aircraft were available for use in SEA between the end of WW2 in 1945 and the escalation of the conflict in Vietnam starting in the early 1960s. Before leaving the area, the French had used American propeller fighter aircraft from WW2 as well as cargo aircraft such as the C-89 and C-118 (I think they were).
Haven't you heard of the heorics of Earthquake McGoon and his fellow pilots?
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If not mistaken the crew stated there was a slight pitch in the aircraft when the stairs were deployed. I don't think it had much of an effect on the plane. it did damage the stairs to some extent....
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R99 wrote: "As Georger says, the best way to answer some of the questions here is to follow the path back to the source of the R&D money."
Agree 100%.
377
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In my search for 727 drop test info I have read a lot about the plane. Very fast aircraft, but a three person cockpit and 3 rather than 2 engines meant that the operating economics just couldn't compete with the later twins having similar specs and needing no flight engineer.
There were a surprising number of aftermarket mods for the 727 trying to make the operating economics more attractive: winglets, re-engining, etc:
Super 27 (from Wikipedia)
"Speed increased by 50 mph (80 km/h), due to replacement of the two side engines with the JT8D-217 or the JT8D-219, which are also found on many MD-80s, along with the addition of hush kits to the center engine. Winglets were added to some of these aircraft to increase fuel efficiency. This modification was originally developed by Valsan Partners, but was later marketed by Quiet Wing Technologies in Redmond, Washington.
There was at least one proposal to modify the 727 to eliminate the flight engineer position but the program could not generate enough purchase commitments to justify the development cost:
In 1995 Aeroworks and Gull Electronic Systems offered a conversion for a 2-man B727 cockpit, eliminating the F/E position. The "DuoDeck" conversion was reportedly "largely based on the Boeing 737-200 cockpit, and Aeroworks claimed that the 2-man cockpit modification would save B727 operators $350,000-$650,000 an aircraft annually in labour and support costs.
Fedex and UPS flew them for a long time after they disappeared from major airline passenger service, but the 727 is no longer in their freighter fleets.
377
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From:https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2007/december/dbcooper_123107
"A few things to keep in mind, according to Special Agent Carr:
Cooper was no expert skydiver. “We originally thought Cooper was an experienced jumper, perhaps even a paratrooper,” says Special Agent Carr. “We concluded after a few years this was simply not true. No experienced parachutist would have jumped in the pitch-black night, in the rain, with a 200-mile-an-hour wind in his face, wearing loafers and a trench coat. It was simply too risky. He also missed that his reserve chute was only for training and had been sewn shut—something a skilled skydiver would have checked.”"
The loafers are indeed a puzzle, if they were correctly described. Jo says they were actually "ankle boots".
The reserve is no puzzle at all, Cooper really didn't need a reserve. He asked for a pair and would have probably used one if either main rig had D rings, but the inability to use a reserve wasn't a show stopper.
The MAC SOG guys jumped at night, in rain and into hostile territory. Not at all ideal, but doable. A daytime fair weather jump would have made it easier for aerial searchers to find Cooper.
377
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Anyone read this new book? http://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-Files-DB-Cooper-ebook/dp/B01BB1ZV2I/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1457998585&sr=1-8&keywords=db+cooper
377
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Anyone read this new book? http://www.amazon.com/Conspiracy-Files-DB-Cooper-ebook/dp/B01BB1ZV2I/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1457998585&sr=1-8&keywords=db+cooper
377
Nope, but at 37 pages it should be a pretty easy read.
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From:https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2007/december/dbcooper_123107
"A few things to keep in mind, according to Special Agent Carr:
Cooper was no expert skydiver. “We originally thought Cooper was an experienced jumper, perhaps even a paratrooper,” says Special Agent Carr. “We concluded after a few years this was simply not true. No experienced parachutist would have jumped in the pitch-black night, in the rain, with a 200-mile-an-hour wind in his face, wearing loafers and a trench coat. It was simply too risky. He also missed that his reserve chute was only for training and had been sewn shut—something a skilled skydiver would have checked.”"
The loafers are indeed a puzzle, if they were correctly described. Jo says they were actually "ankle boots".
The reserve is no puzzle at all, Cooper really didn't need a reserve. He asked for a pair and would have probably used one if either main rig had D rings, but the inability to use a reserve wasn't a show stopper.
The MAC SOG guys jumped at night, in rain and into hostile territory. Not at all ideal, but doable. A daytime fair weather jump would have made it easier for aerial searchers to find Cooper.
377
Shootin’ from the hip here, but wasn’t Cooper observed to have a small bag of unknown content with him. Something like 4”x12”x14”? Can’t experiment with it now, but used to have a pair of Jungle Boots which I could scrunch down real tight into my kit. Just guessing, but why not a pair in the bag with skull cap, pair of gloves, small gog’s, and roll of 1” gun tape. Little bit of kit in a small package could make life a lot easier. He had about ½ hour on his own back there where no one saw what he did.
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Shootin’ from the hip here, but wasn’t Cooper observed to have a small bag of unknown content with him. Something like 4”x12”x14”? Can’t experiment with it now, but used to have a pair of Jungle Boots which I could scrunch down real tight into my kit. Just guessing, but why not a pair in the bag with skull cap, pair of gloves, small gog’s, and roll of 1” gun tape. Little bit of kit in a small package could make life a lot easier. He had about ½ hour on his own back there where no one saw what he did.
Prospector,
Would you care to elaborate a bit on your background in parachuting and related activities? Also, are you located outside the USA?
The paper bag that Cooper had has usually been described as about the size of those used by fast food carry out stores (or is it "take away" stores in your part of the world?). The dimensions you gave are somewhat larger.
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From:https://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2007/december/dbcooper_123107
"A few things to keep in mind, according to Special Agent Carr:
Cooper was no expert skydiver. “We originally thought Cooper was an experienced jumper, perhaps even a paratrooper,” says Special Agent Carr. “We concluded after a few years this was simply not true. No experienced parachutist would have jumped in the pitch-black night, in the rain, with a 200-mile-an-hour wind in his face, wearing loafers and a trench coat. It was simply too risky. He also missed that his reserve chute was only for training and had been sewn shut—something a skilled skydiver would have checked.”"
The loafers are indeed a puzzle, if they were correctly described. Jo says they were actually "ankle boots".
The reserve is no puzzle at all, Cooper really didn't need a reserve. He asked for a pair and would have probably used one if either main rig had D rings, but the inability to use a reserve wasn't a show stopper.
The MAC SOG guys jumped at night, in rain and into hostile territory. Not at all ideal, but doable. A daytime fair weather jump would have made it easier for aerial searchers to find Cooper.
377
Shootin’ from the hip here, but wasn’t Cooper observed to have a small bag of unknown content with him. Something like 4”x12”x14”? Can’t experiment with it now, but used to have a pair of Jungle Boots which I could scrunch down real tight into my kit. Just guessing, but why not a pair in the bag with skull cap, pair of gloves, small gog’s, and roll of 1” gun tape. Little bit of kit in a small package could make life a lot easier. He had about ½ hour on his own back there where no one saw what he did.
The shoes are a serious paradox from our point of view. A gap in his experience-thinking? Planned to jump near enough civilisation he wouldnt need protective footwear? Had help waiting and wouldnt spend much time in the woods? Had much experience and had jumped au naturale before, maybe many times (had hardy well worn feet). While it's not advised in the manual, there are some survivalists who go into very hostile terrain and conditions bare foot and actually prefer bare feet if possible! The conditions Cooper encountered would be a back yard stroll to one of those latter types of all-native guys! Or, perhaps this was all rushed and Cooper wore what he had time and resources to prepare with. There is latitude in this issue - the fact of loafers does not automatically spell 'crazy'.
In fact, he could have had some type of protective footwear and other gear under his clothing. Dont forget he and he alone visited the rear lav and spent considerable time in there just after landing at Seattle. He could have pulled things out from under his clothing while in the lav and stored things there until the end when he needed them. Nobody but Cooper was in that lav after the plane landed at Seattle. In fact the last passenger to use that lav prior to landing could have pout things in there for him! Mukluks stow very nicely and you can survive in the Arctic with them.
:)
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377 You say: "What does Sailshaw think? He was a Boeing engineer. We have some other engineers reading this. Your thoughts?
I do not think it was obvious that the 727 could fly safely with the stairs extended. I do not think it was widely known or easily deducible that the stairs could be deployed in flight. It would have been easy for Boeing to have put in a landing gear squat switch activated interlock preventing airstair door opening after liftoff. I think Cooper knew it could be opened. How did he know?"
I Say: Boeing was trying to sell more 727's to the US Government and did the test flights at Moses Lake (our testing field East of Seattle) and had full photo coverage by our photo unit. With the photo movies the sales team could discuss the advantages of a plane like the 727 that could take-off, fly, and land with the Air Stairs deployed. I eat each Thursday with a retired Boeing Sales person at my yacht club and will ask him this Thursday what he knows about these demonstration flights for the US Government. The information was for sales to the government and not for the public to know all about (to help with stopping public thoughts about uses of the 727). Knowing what we know now, the Cooper Vane lock-out would have been good to have in the original design and Norjak would not have happened. Squat switch requires electrical connections and was not considered when the Cooper Vane was designed as it works without power just airflow.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
PS Sheridan made demo jumps dressed just like DB Cooper including loafers before Norjak. He was also dressed like DB in the Boeing News add for the Sky Diving Club including loafers and prior to Norjak
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Cooper Vane sure was a dirt simple solution, just a vane and a pivot.
What I am wondering is whether any of the Boeing tests involved opening the door and extending the stairs in flight. Please be sure to ask about that detail.
377
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377 You say: "What does Sailshaw think? He was a Boeing engineer. We have some other engineers reading this. Your thoughts?
I do not think it was obvious that the 727 could fly safely with the stairs extended. I do not think it was widely known or easily deducible that the stairs could be deployed in flight. It would have been easy for Boeing to have put in a landing gear squat switch activated interlock preventing airstair door opening after liftoff. I think Cooper knew it could be opened. How did he know?"
I Say: Boeing was trying to sell more 727's to the US Government and did the test flights at Moses Lake (our testing field East of Seattle) and had full photo coverage by our photo unit. With the photo movies the sales team could discuss the advantages of a plane like the 727 that could take-off, fly, and land with the Air Stairs deployed. I eat each Thursday with a retired Boeing Sales person at my yacht club and will ask him this Thursday what he knows about these demonstration flights for the US Government. The information was for sales to the government and not for the public to know all about (to help with stopping public thoughts about uses of the 727). Knowing what we know now, the Cooper Vane lock-out would have been good to have in the original design and Norjak would not have happened. Squat switch requires electrical connections and was not considered when the Cooper Vane was designed as it works without power just airflow.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
PS Sheridan made demo jumps dressed just like DB Cooper including loafers before Norjak. He was also dressed like DB in the Boeing News add for the Sky Diving Club including loafers and prior to Norjak
If those stair modifications were done for a Boeing contractor, your sales team fellow probably didn't know anything about the tests except what he read in the newspapers after the Cooper hijacking.
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377 You say: "What does Sailshaw think? He was a Boeing engineer. We have some other engineers reading this. Your thoughts?
I do not think it was obvious that the 727 could fly safely with the stairs extended. I do not think it was widely known or easily deducible that the stairs could be deployed in flight. It would have been easy for Boeing to have put in a landing gear squat switch activated interlock preventing airstair door opening after liftoff. I think Cooper knew it could be opened. How did he know?"
I Say: Boeing was trying to sell more 727's to the US Government and did the test flights at Moses Lake (our testing field East of Seattle) and had full photo coverage by our photo unit. With the photo movies the sales team could discuss the advantages of a plane like the 727 that could take-off, fly, and land with the Air Stairs deployed. I eat each Thursday with a retired Boeing Sales person at my yacht club and will ask him this Thursday what he knows about these demonstration flights for the US Government. The information was for sales to the government and not for the public to know all about (to help with stopping public thoughts about uses of the 727). Knowing what we know now, the Cooper Vane lock-out would have been good to have in the original design and Norjak would not have happened. Squat switch requires electrical connections and was not considered when the Cooper Vane was designed as it works without power just airflow.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
PS Sheridan made demo jumps dressed just like DB Cooper including loafers before Norjak. He was also dressed like DB in the Boeing News add for the Sky Diving Club including loafers and prior to Norjak
Yes, you have said some of this before. Maybe Shutter can find some of these Boeing photos of Sheridan jumping in loafers dressed like a suit. Did you know Wayne Forestal? Brian Reynolds? Dick Placencia?
YOu also say: The information was for sales to the government and not for the public to know all about (to help with stopping public thoughts about uses of the 727).
What have you withed from the public while promoting Peterson as DB Cooper? :)
Isn't the job of a Boeing Sales guy to 'talk and sell'? ... to the public? I wonder what the brain tissue of Boeing sales guys looks like. How do their neurons fire in one direction but not in the other and how do they know ? :) I mean after years of practice talking and not-talking ... knowing and not-knowing ... them vs us et cetera. I'm always interested in the anatomical makeup of superior species! :)
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Shootin’ from the hip here, but wasn’t Cooper observed to have a small bag of unknown content with him. Something like 4”x12”x14”? Can’t experiment with it now, but used to have a pair of Jungle Boots which I could scrunch down real tight into my kit. Just guessing, but why not a pair in the bag with skull cap, pair of gloves, small gog’s, and roll of 1” gun tape. Little bit of kit in a small package could make life a lot easier. He had about ½ hour on his own back there where no one saw what he did.
Prospector,
Would you care to elaborate a bit on your background in parachuting and related activities? Also, are you located outside the USA?
The paper bag that Cooper had has usually been described as about the size of those used by fast food carry out stores (or is it "take away" stores in your part of the world?). The dimensions you gave are somewhat larger.
Yup, outside US. Nope, never left a perfectly serviceable F/W aircraft. Hope to attend the next symposium or gathering and meet in-person some of the Cooper Vets who have researched this mystery down to the finest detail and whose work I’m following-up on to formulate a fact-based working hypothesis. Will bring my résumé and answer any and all questions eye-to-eye about personal stuff there.
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"Nope, never left a perfectly serviceable F/W aircraft."
I think there are experienced skydivers who could truthfully say the same thing.
I've rarely seen a "perfectly serviceable" jumpship.
Here is an example: http://www.recordnet.com/article/20101015/A_NEWS/10150320
377
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Shootin’ from the hip here, but wasn’t Cooper observed to have a small bag of unknown content with him. Something like 4”x12”x14”? Can’t experiment with it now, but used to have a pair of Jungle Boots which I could scrunch down real tight into my kit. Just guessing, but why not a pair in the bag with skull cap, pair of gloves, small gog’s, and roll of 1” gun tape. Little bit of kit in a small package could make life a lot easier. He had about ½ hour on his own back there where no one saw what he did.
Prospector,
Would you care to elaborate a bit on your background in parachuting and related activities? Also, are you located outside the USA?
The paper bag that Cooper had has usually been described as about the size of those used by fast food carry out stores (or is it "take away" stores in your part of the world?). The dimensions you gave are somewhat larger.
Yup, outside US. Nope, never left a perfectly serviceable F/W aircraft. Hope to attend the next symposium or gathering and meet in-person some of the Cooper Vets who have researched this mystery down to the finest detail and whose work I’m following-up on to formulate a fact-based working hypothesis. Will bring my résumé and answer any and all questions eye-to-eye about personal stuff there.
Parking could become a problem. Be careful of the Vortex. :)
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Shootin’ from the hip here, but wasn’t Cooper observed to have a small bag of unknown content with him. Something like 4”x12”x14”? Can’t experiment with it now, but used to have a pair of Jungle Boots which I could scrunch down real tight into my kit. Just guessing, but why not a pair in the bag with skull cap, pair of gloves, small gog’s, and roll of 1” gun tape. Little bit of kit in a small package could make life a lot easier. He had about ½ hour on his own back there where no one saw what he did.
Prospector,
Would you care to elaborate a bit on your background in parachuting and related activities? Also, are you located outside the USA?
The paper bag that Cooper had has usually been described as about the size of those used by fast food carry out stores (or is it "take away" stores in your part of the world?). The dimensions you gave are somewhat larger.
Yup, outside US. Nope, never left a perfectly serviceable F/W aircraft. Hope to attend the next symposium or gathering and meet in-person some of the Cooper Vets who have researched this mystery down to the finest detail and whose work I’m following-up on to formulate a fact-based working hypothesis. Will bring my résumé and answer any and all questions eye-to-eye about personal stuff there.
Parking could become a problem. Be careful of the Vortex. :)
And the next gathering might be held in Canada, Mexico, or elsewhere outside the USA, depending on the end results of the current Presidential election campaign. I would personally suggest Costa Rico or Belize if the nutcases do succeed in taking over here.
Be advised that there is a lot of BS on the old DropZone Cooper threads, as you probably already know. Things are much better on this thread thanks to Shutter's strict management.
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Shootin’ from the hip here, but wasn’t Cooper observed to have a small bag of unknown content with him. Something like 4”x12”x14”? Can’t experiment with it now, but used to have a pair of Jungle Boots which I could scrunch down real tight into my kit. Just guessing, but why not a pair in the bag with skull cap, pair of gloves, small gog’s, and roll of 1” gun tape. Little bit of kit in a small package could make life a lot easier. He had about ½ hour on his own back there where no one saw what he did.
Prospector,
Would you care to elaborate a bit on your background in parachuting and related activities? Also, are you located outside the USA?
The paper bag that Cooper had has usually been described as about the size of those used by fast food carry out stores (or is it "take away" stores in your part of the world?). The dimensions you gave are somewhat larger.
Yup, outside US. Nope, never left a perfectly serviceable F/W aircraft. Hope to attend the next symposium or gathering and meet in-person some of the Cooper Vets who have researched this mystery down to the finest detail and whose work I’m following-up on to formulate a fact-based working hypothesis. Will bring my résumé and answer any and all questions eye-to-eye about personal stuff there.
Parking could become a problem. Be careful of the Vortex. :)
And the next gathering might be held in Canada, Mexico, or elsewhere outside the USA, depending on the end results of the current Presidential election campaign. I would personally suggest Costa Rico or Belize if the nutcases do succeed in taking over here.
Be advised that there is a lot of BS on the old DropZone Cooper threads, as you probably already know. Things are much better on this thread thanks to Shutter's strict management.
He already knows that Cooper had mukluks stowed, a Captain Video badge, a Civil Air Patrol card from grade school, and a Russian submarine waiting in the Lewis River ... which accounts for the Tina Bar money having arrived via Tom's Propeller Drag Theory at 2:36pm on a Tuesday in 4004BC.
:-*
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To understand Cooper, you must freefall a mile in his loafers. The suggestion was made that an opportunistic personality trait existed based on the assumption he had knowledge of 727 jump capabilities. Now I’ll suggest he demonstrated manipulative tendencies based on an assumption he knew about V23. Deeper yet into the rabbit hole.......
Cooper intended to commandeer a 727, extort negotiable currency, and escape by parachute. It was not a suicide mission. Cooper was calm, cool, and collected unless things were being perceived as not going his way (e.g. 1700hrs timeline restriction for deliverables, refuelling delays). Cooper required repeated reassurance that there would be “no funny stuff”. Cooper was perceived to have behaved in a childish mannerism when he received the cash in priority order – suggesting he got what he wanted most. He wanted notes and matchbooks back but offered paper money (fingerprints?). He appeared at ease with the operational aspects of parachutes.
Cooper ordered altitude of 10 000feet and direction south (Mexico) from SEA. Cooper ordered aircraft into flight configuration for jump out of SEA (i.e. not enroute or over Mexico). Cooper did not order V23. Cooper insisted that once airborne from SEA that there would be no further touchdowns in the US, then relinquished and allowed a refueling stop in Reno. Cooper seemed unsure about where he wanted to go as observed by flight attendant. There is no described external influence forcing Cooper to jump when he jumped, he exited the aircraft on his own freewill and volition. Air crew stated they knew they were over populated landscape when jump suspected.
Cooper was in control of the mission and had co-operation of the flight crew, he did what he did when he wanted to do it. He jumped when he wanted to jump. All he had to do was specify south and 10 000feet on a stormy night to get the aircraft on V23. Looking at Mapsheet L1 - who would choose a flight path to the north, west, or east over the Cascades out of SEA?
Where in all of that is there any demonstrable evidence of specific intent to get himself into Mexico by hijacked aircraft? If he intended to go to Mexico he would have gone to Mexico. A soft-spoken thoughtful gentleman like Mr. Cooper wouldn’t tell a lie would he?
If the assumption is true, and the argument is valid, it creates a Cooper puzzle – did he get himself dropped-off close to where he got picked-up, picked-up close to where he got himself dropped-off, or both?
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Lots of "funny stuff" was thrown at Cooper.
Wrong money bag, he didn't like that...
Dummy chute. (didn't say a word)
Missing D-rings (didn't say a word)
It's hard to say where Cooper was going. he wanted the stairs down prior to takeoff. once that didn't happen he opened the stairs early in the flight. did Cooper know where he was when he jumped? the original LZ seems to be invalid. the timing in that area is off...where is Cooper?
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To understand Cooper, you must freefall a mile in his loafers. The suggestion was made that an opportunistic personality trait existed based on the assumption he had knowledge of 727 jump capabilities. Now I’ll suggest he demonstrated manipulative tendencies based on an assumption he knew about V23. Deeper yet into the rabbit hole.......
Cooper intended to commandeer a 727, extort negotiable currency, and escape by parachute. It was not a suicide mission. Cooper was calm, cool, and collected unless things were being perceived as not going his way (e.g. 1700hrs timeline restriction for deliverables, refuelling delays). Cooper required repeated reassurance that there would be “no funny stuff”. Cooper was perceived to have behaved in a childish mannerism when he received the cash in priority order – suggesting he got what he wanted most. He wanted notes and matchbooks back but offered paper money (fingerprints?). He appeared at ease with the operational aspects of parachutes.
Cooper ordered altitude of 10 000feet and direction south (Mexico) from SEA. Cooper ordered aircraft into flight configuration for jump out of SEA (i.e. not enroute or over Mexico). Cooper did not order V23. Cooper insisted that once airborne from SEA that there would be no further touchdowns in the US, then relinquished and allowed a refueling stop in Reno. Cooper seemed unsure about where he wanted to go as observed by flight attendant. There is no described external influence forcing Cooper to jump when he jumped, he exited the aircraft on his own freewill and volition. Air crew stated they knew they were over populated landscape when jump suspected.
Cooper was in control of the mission and had co-operation of the flight crew, he did what he did when he wanted to do it. He jumped when he wanted to jump. All he had to do was specify south and 10 000feet on a stormy night to get the aircraft on V23. Looking at Mapsheet L1 - who would choose a flight path to the north, west, or east over the Cascades out of SEA?
Where in all of that is there any demonstrable evidence of specific intent to get himself into Mexico by hijacked aircraft? If he intended to go to Mexico he would have gone to Mexico. A soft-spoken thoughtful gentleman like Mr. Cooper wouldn’t tell a lie would he?
If the assumption is true, and the argument is valid, it creates a Cooper puzzle – did he get himself dropped-off close to where he got picked-up, picked-up close to where he got himself dropped-off, or both?
Whether he intended the plane to use V23 or not, he bailed in or near V23. He also identified Tacoma from the air.
Not sure what that gets ? ;)
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To understand Cooper, you must freefall a mile in his loafers. The suggestion was made that an opportunistic personality trait existed based on the assumption he had knowledge of 727 jump capabilities. Now I’ll suggest he demonstrated manipulative tendencies based on an assumption he knew about V23. Deeper yet into the rabbit hole.......
Cooper intended to commandeer a 727, extort negotiable currency, and escape by parachute. It was not a suicide mission. Cooper was calm, cool, and collected unless things were being perceived as not going his way (e.g. 1700hrs timeline restriction for deliverables, refuelling delays). Cooper required repeated reassurance that there would be “no funny stuff”. Cooper was perceived to have behaved in a childish mannerism when he received the cash in priority order – suggesting he got what he wanted most. He wanted notes and matchbooks back but offered paper money (fingerprints?). He appeared at ease with the operational aspects of parachutes.
Cooper ordered altitude of 10 000feet and direction south (Mexico) from SEA. Cooper ordered aircraft into flight configuration for jump out of SEA (i.e. not enroute or over Mexico). Cooper did not order V23. Cooper insisted that once airborne from SEA that there would be no further touchdowns in the US, then relinquished and allowed a refueling stop in Reno. Cooper seemed unsure about where he wanted to go as observed by flight attendant. There is no described external influence forcing Cooper to jump when he jumped, he exited the aircraft on his own freewill and volition. Air crew stated they knew they were over populated landscape when jump suspected.
Cooper was in control of the mission and had co-operation of the flight crew, he did what he did when he wanted to do it. He jumped when he wanted to jump. All he had to do was specify south and 10 000feet on a stormy night to get the aircraft on V23. Looking at Mapsheet L1 - who would choose a flight path to the north, west, or east over the Cascades out of SEA?
Where in all of that is there any demonstrable evidence of specific intent to get himself into Mexico by hijacked aircraft? If he intended to go to Mexico he would have gone to Mexico. A soft-spoken thoughtful gentleman like Mr. Cooper wouldn’t tell a lie would he?
If the assumption is true, and the argument is valid, it creates a Cooper puzzle – did he get himself dropped-off close to where he got picked-up, picked-up close to where he got himself dropped-off, or both?
Prospector, You are correct in stating that Cooper did not specify any airway.
But there were two airways between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC (which is now named the Battleground VORTAC). The first is V-23 which was and is a dog-leg route between those two VORTACS and the second was V-23E (now designated V-495) which is a direct line between the VORTACS.
V-23E had higher terrain and could have presented a problem if the airliner didn't get up to 10,000 feet fairly fast and would have given Cooper problems if he had done a delayed drop in that area (especially with the several cloud layers and an overcast at about 5000 feet).
So the V-23 airway was selected by the flight crew and they never informed Cooper of that fact. And it appears that Cooper was interested in jumping as soon as possible after take-off but no indication of a specific location for jumping.
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Lots of "funny stuff" was thrown at Cooper.
Wrong money bag, he didn't like that...
Dummy chute. (didn't say a word)
Missing D-rings (didn't say a word)
It's hard to say where Cooper was going. he wanted the stairs down prior to takeoff. once that didn't happen he opened the stairs early in the flight. did Cooper know where he was when he jumped? the original LZ seems to be invalid. the timing in that area is off...where is Cooper?
Tina reportedly said that Cooper did mention the missing D-rings to her but didn't make an issue of it.
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To understand Cooper, you must freefall a mile in his loafers. The suggestion was made that an opportunistic personality trait existed based on the assumption he had knowledge of 727 jump capabilities. Now I’ll suggest he demonstrated manipulative tendencies based on an assumption he knew about V23. Deeper yet into the rabbit hole.......
Cooper intended to commandeer a 727, extort negotiable currency, and escape by parachute. It was not a suicide mission. Cooper was calm, cool, and collected unless things were being perceived as not going his way (e.g. 1700hrs timeline restriction for deliverables, refuelling delays). Cooper required repeated reassurance that there would be “no funny stuff”. Cooper was perceived to have behaved in a childish mannerism when he received the cash in priority order – suggesting he got what he wanted most. He wanted notes and matchbooks back but offered paper money (fingerprints?). He appeared at ease with the operational aspects of parachutes.
Cooper ordered altitude of 10 000feet and direction south (Mexico) from SEA. Cooper ordered aircraft into flight configuration for jump out of SEA (i.e. not enroute or over Mexico). Cooper did not order V23. Cooper insisted that once airborne from SEA that there would be no further touchdowns in the US, then relinquished and allowed a refueling stop in Reno. Cooper seemed unsure about where he wanted to go as observed by flight attendant. There is no described external influence forcing Cooper to jump when he jumped, he exited the aircraft on his own freewill and volition. Air crew stated they knew they were over populated landscape when jump suspected.
Cooper was in control of the mission and had co-operation of the flight crew, he did what he did when he wanted to do it. He jumped when he wanted to jump. All he had to do was specify south and 10 000feet on a stormy night to get the aircraft on V23. Looking at Mapsheet L1 - who would choose a flight path to the north, west, or east over the Cascades out of SEA?
Where in all of that is there any demonstrable evidence of specific intent to get himself into Mexico by hijacked aircraft? If he intended to go to Mexico he would have gone to Mexico. A soft-spoken thoughtful gentleman like Mr. Cooper wouldn’t tell a lie would he?
If the assumption is true, and the argument is valid, it creates a Cooper puzzle – did he get himself dropped-off close to where he got picked-up, picked-up close to where he got himself dropped-off, or both?
Prospector, You are correct in stating that Cooper did not specify any airway.
But there were two airways between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC (which is now named the Battleground VORTAC). The first is V-23 which was and is a dog-leg route between those two VORTACS and the second was V-23E (now designated V-495) which is a direct line between the VORTACS.
V-23E had higher terrain and could have presented a problem if the airliner didn't get up to 10,000 feet fairly fast and would have given Cooper problems if he had done a delayed drop in that area (especially with the several cloud layers and an overcast at about 5000 feet).
So the V-23 airway was selected by the flight crew and they never informed Cooper of that fact. And it appears that Cooper was interested in jumping as soon as possible after take-off but no indication of a specific location for jumping.
I cant think of one thing Cooper said or did other than specifying "south" to indicate he wanted V23, or even knew about Victor airways, or knew where the plane was unless he somehow monitored them taking off and somehow sensed they had turned and were headed south? There isnt any recorded remark or query between Cooper and the crew about airways, that we know of. If he surmised they were on V23 he didn't say anything about it, that we know.
What we do know is he began putting on a chute shortly after they were delivered and he inspected them - that was witnessed. He then turned his attention to the door and the stairs, then told Tina to go forward.
I dont recall anything in any transcripts that has him discussing airways with Tina or anyone else. Maybe he knew they had to be taking V23 on the assumption they were flying south over a low elevation route? He did wait to bail and asked that the plane be leveled and slowed (we have that from Anderson etal). And he identified Tacoma from the air.
Maybe you know something we don't know? My feeling is you don't know anything NEW ?
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To understand Cooper, you must freefall a mile in his loafers. The suggestion was made that an opportunistic personality trait existed based on the assumption he had knowledge of 727 jump capabilities. Now I’ll suggest he demonstrated manipulative tendencies based on an assumption he knew about V23. Deeper yet into the rabbit hole.......
Cooper intended to commandeer a 727, extort negotiable currency, and escape by parachute. It was not a suicide mission. Cooper was calm, cool, and collected unless things were being perceived as not going his way (e.g. 1700hrs timeline restriction for deliverables, refuelling delays). Cooper required repeated reassurance that there would be “no funny stuff”. Cooper was perceived to have behaved in a childish mannerism when he received the cash in priority order – suggesting he got what he wanted most. He wanted notes and matchbooks back but offered paper money (fingerprints?). He appeared at ease with the operational aspects of parachutes.
Cooper ordered altitude of 10 000feet and direction south (Mexico) from SEA. Cooper ordered aircraft into flight configuration for jump out of SEA (i.e. not enroute or over Mexico). Cooper did not order V23. Cooper insisted that once airborne from SEA that there would be no further touchdowns in the US, then relinquished and allowed a refueling stop in Reno. Cooper seemed unsure about where he wanted to go as observed by flight attendant. There is no described external influence forcing Cooper to jump when he jumped, he exited the aircraft on his own freewill and volition. Air crew stated they knew they were over populated landscape when jump suspected.
Cooper was in control of the mission and had co-operation of the flight crew, he did what he did when he wanted to do it. He jumped when he wanted to jump. All he had to do was specify south and 10 000feet on a stormy night to get the aircraft on V23. Looking at Mapsheet L1 - who would choose a flight path to the north, west, or east over the Cascades out of SEA?
Where in all of that is there any demonstrable evidence of specific intent to get himself into Mexico by hijacked aircraft? If he intended to go to Mexico he would have gone to Mexico. A soft-spoken thoughtful gentleman like Mr. Cooper wouldn’t tell a lie would he?
If the assumption is true, and the argument is valid, it creates a Cooper puzzle – did he get himself dropped-off close to where he got picked-up, picked-up close to where he got himself dropped-off, or both?
Prospector, You are correct in stating that Cooper did not specify any airway.
But there were two airways between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC (which is now named the Battleground VORTAC). The first is V-23 which was and is a dog-leg route between those two VORTACS and the second was V-23E (now designated V-495) which is a direct line between the VORTACS.
V-23E had higher terrain and could have presented a problem if the airliner didn't get up to 10,000 feet fairly fast and would have given Cooper problems if he had done a delayed drop in that area (especially with the several cloud layers and an overcast at about 5000 feet).
So the V-23 airway was selected by the flight crew and they never informed Cooper of that fact. And it appears that Cooper was interested in jumping as soon as possible after take-off but no indication of a specific location for jumping.
I cant think of one thing Cooper said or did other than specifying "south" to indicate he wanted V23, or even knew about Victor airways, or knew where the plane was unless he somehow monitored them taking off and somehow sensed they had turned and were headed south? There isnt any recorded remark or query between Cooper and the crew about airways, that we know of. If he surmised they were on V23 he didn't say anything about it, that we know.
What we do know is he began putting on a chute shortly after they were delivered and he inspected them - that was witnessed. He then turned his attention to the door and the stairs, then told Tina to go forward.
I dont recall anything in any transcripts that has him discussing airways with Tina or anyone else. Maybe he knew they had to be taking V23 on the assumption they were flying south over a low elevation route? He did wait to bail and asked that the plane be leveled and slowed (we have that from Anderson etal). And he identified Tacoma from the air.
Maybe you know something we don't know? My feeling is you don't know anything NEW ?
Tina's supposed discussions with Cooper are in Tosaw's book (printed about 1985). They included remarks about the D-rings, the point that Cooper knew the airliner could take off with the rear stairs unlocked and partially down, the fact that Cooper had problems operating the stairs even after Tina told him how to do it, etc..
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'Georger: You say: " The information was for sales to the government and not for the public to know all about (to help with stopping public thoughts about uses of the 727).
What have you withed from the public while promoting Peterson as DB Cooper? :
Isn't the job of a Boeing Sales guy to 'talk and sell'? ... to the public? I wonder what the brain tissue of Boeing sales guys looks like. How do their neurons fire in one direction but not in the other and how do they know ? :) I mean after years of practice talking and not-talking ... knowing and not-knowing ... them vs us et cetera. I'm always interested in the anatomical makeup of superior species! "
Georger you are just full of it again as usual. When you have no real information, you just publish jiberish and it is a waist of our time.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Lots of "funny stuff" was thrown at Cooper.
Wrong money bag, he didn't like that...
Dummy chute. (didn't say a word)
Missing D-rings (didn't say a word)
It's hard to say where Cooper was going. he wanted the stairs down prior to takeoff. once that didn't happen he opened the stairs early in the flight. did Cooper know where he was when he jumped? the original LZ seems to be invalid. the timing in that area is off...where is Cooper?
He is in the crack that threatens structural integrity. Secure behind a defensive perimeter of ineptitude, corruption, and hatred. Unknowingly engaged in his final battle like a snake eating its’ own tail.
Patience now.
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Georger you are just full of it again as usual. When you have no real information, you just publish jiberish and it is a waist of our time.
I don't believe the things Georger states are considered "jiberish". he has extensive knowledge into this case, and is considered a valuable member. I believe we are all valuable to this case in different area's and ways.
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Tina's supposed discussions with Cooper are in Tosaw's book (printed about 1985). They included remarks about the D-rings, the point that Cooper knew the airliner could take off with the rear stairs unlocked and partially down, the fact that Cooper had problems operating the stairs even after Tina told him how to do it, etc..
What Richard Tosaw wrote in his book is now questioned. Specifically, what he attributes to Tina is probably not true - or at least it is almost certainly not verbatim, nor a direct quote.
I think Tosaw used a "poetic license" and utilized "Tina" as the voice to replay information that he got from other sources. Bottom line, I think what Tosaw wrote he felt to be true and accurate.
However, it probably was not Tina's actual words. Rataczak told me that he worked with Tosaw on his book, and he said that Tosaw described Tina as being impaired mentally - certainly her memory. Rataczak characterized it as "wiped clean like a white board" or words to that effect when we spoke in 2009.
Galen worked with Tosaw quite a bit, even camping out with him on the Columbia and diving in the river. Galen says the same thing about Tosaw and Tina - that her memory was shot.
Calame writes similarly, and says that her memory of November 24, 1971 is so poor that she would never be called to testify as a witness if DB Cooper was ever apprehended and brought to trial. A sad state of affairs for the primary witness to Norjak, particularly since she spent five hours in the skyjacker's company - and 45 minutes (estimated) of that alone with him.
I suspect that Tosaw got most of the information that he put in Tina's mouth from his brother Mike at the Seattle FO. At least that is what Galen suspects, and I think it is a plausible scenario. Mike Tosaw was an special agent in Seattle at that time, not assigned to Norjak, apparently, and also not well-loved by his brethren, according to Richard and Galen. I suspect that Mike Tosaw snooped in the office, fed it to Richard, who needed to cover for his brother and so told the world that he got the info from Tina.
I would have gotten the story directly from Richard if I was able, but we were just beginning to develop our relationship when he died of cancer in 2009. I spoke with Richard a time or two on the phone, and although he was a kindly gent and clearly somebody that I would have loved talking with, he only had limited energies and so I didn't push it. Alas.
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Georger you are just full of it again as usual. When you have no real information, you just publish jiberish and it is a waist of our time.
I don't believe the things Georger states are considered "jiberish". he has extensive knowledge into this case, and is considered a valuable member. I believe we are all valuable to this case in different area's and ways.
All of us produce signal as well as noise. It's the ratio that really matters.
377
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'Georger: You say: " The information was for sales to the government and not for the public to know all about (to help with stopping public thoughts about uses of the 727).
What have you withed from the public while promoting Peterson as DB Cooper? :
Isn't the job of a Boeing Sales guy to 'talk and sell'? ... to the public? I wonder what the brain tissue of Boeing sales guys looks like. How do their neurons fire in one direction but not in the other and how do they know ? :) I mean after years of practice talking and not-talking ... knowing and not-knowing ... them vs us et cetera. I'm always interested in the anatomical makeup of superior species! "
Georger you are just full of it again as usual. When you have no real information, you just publish jiberish and it is a waist of our time.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
On the other hand you may be in the best position of all to actually interview crucial people at Boeing, being that you are/were a Boeing guy who knew people, knew the system, etc. By all accounts Boeing played a crucial ongoing role in this affair. But, you haven't done that in all these years. Instead you crusade for Peterson being DB Cooper! So tell us, Boeing guy, did people at Boeing think Peterson was DB Cooper or is it just you? Do you speak for Boeing today?
Did you know Dick Placencia who supposedly worked on the Cooper vane for Boeing?
Let's cut the gibberish and get down to brass tacks! Or titanium tacks, as it were. (Please take note of how 'jiberish' is spelled. It's 'gibberish' last time I checked?
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Cooper vane, Fowler flaps, Pitot tube...can anyone name other aerodynamic devices that have a name attached? The Cooper vane really should have had the name of the inventor, but his fame was stolen by a skyjacker.
377
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So how much global warming can we blame on DB Cooper?
Although small, that damned Cooper Vane added drag and therefore required a slightly higher fuel burn to meet airline speed requirements.
The last 727s and DC 9s are leaving service so the legacy tail gets shorter every day, but still...
These hobby flight sim guys are nuts for authentic physics modeling. Shutter, can you fly a sim 727 with and without the Cooper vane? Just kidding... ;)
I'd love to get a Cooper Vane off a scrapped 727. Gotta look into that.
377
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The original vane was developed by the Eastern Airlines engineering department. It is a pivoting spring loaded vane, the airload overcomes the spring load and causes the vane to rotate. A plate at the base of the vane blocks the airstairs from being opened in flight. On the ground the spring causes the vane to pivot back and the plate moves away from the airstairs.
"aerodynamic wedge"
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These hobby flight sim guys are nuts for authentic physics modeling. Shutter, can you fly a sim 727 with and without the Cooper vane? Just kidding
Ha, that's one thing that's not on the Flyjsim 727..the stairs deploy, but no vane.
Yes, the sim world is getting very scientific. the guys designing planes have hundreds of hours in them. same for ground features. I can get lost in some of these airports while driving my buggy.
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So how much global warming can we blame on DB Cooper?
Although small, that damned Cooper Vane added drag and therefore required a slightly higher fuel burn to meet airline speed requirements.
The last 727s and DC 9s are leaving service so the legacy tail gets shorter every day, but still...
These hobby flight sim guys are nuts for authentic physics modeling. Shutter, can you fly a sim 727 with and without the Cooper vane? Just kidding... ;)
I'd love to get a Cooper Vane off a scrapped 727. Gotta look into that.
377
77, have you ever talked to any of the Boeing Skydiving Club guys that were consulted on the Cooper case? I think Guru talked to one of them but I would have to go back to see the posts ...
I made posts about this years ago based on what our Boeing guy remembered, who knew several of the skydiving club guys ... our guy gave me a rundown on what the club had told the FBI (basically that Cooper probably didn't survive). Our guy was pretty graphic in what he stated had been described to the FBI: shoes coming off, money bag doing body and head damage, arms being pulled out of their sockets, etc... Can you add anything ?
I am posting this based on Sail's recent remarks -
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I'd love to expand that discussion. Do skydivers see the DB Cooper jump differently these days, than they did back in the early 1970s?
The general consensus that I see these days is that the skydiving community feels strongly that Cooper made it. The skydivers who spoke at the 2103 Symposium in Tacoma were passionate about Cooper's success. Hatley was also in that camp when we had lunch with Sail about a year or two ago, and surprised me when he said that Cossey felt the same way - "All skydivers - or at least most of us - think Cooper made it," Ralph said. He was very surprised when I told him that Cossey had told me, on the record, that Cooper cratered.
Bruce Thun re-enforces that idea. He said that all the skydivers at Thun Field were screaming - "Why didn't I think of that!" on Thanksgiving Day, 1971.
At the 2011 Symposium, Mooshie was the only skydiver I spoke with who said Cooper didn't make it. She thinks that Cooper and all of his stuff entombed himself in a really big mud puddle.
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Had an interesting phone call today from a Walter Sherman. He was the UAL pilot in charge of the pilots' association for UAL and help Don Burnworth get his Leave of Absence in 1971 prior to the skyjacking. It was a lot of fun getting little details from behind the scenes.
Don's ex-wife made UAL's life hell. "She went all the way to the Vice President!," Walter said. She also chewed the FBI's ass Big Time, trying to get him incarcerated. Don and she were a trip-and-a-half in public. She spoke at his reinstatement hearing at UAL with the Labor Board, after UAL kicked him out for being "harmful to the welfare of the company." She had to be restrained! (Or at least "re-directed...") She drove Don so crazy that he actually had to get a psych eval!
Apparently, Don's story is true that he had to hire an ex-CIA agent-turned-PI named Marion Cooper to snatch his kids from the ex's house in KC so that Don could take them to Germany.
Walter flew 727s for most of his 35-year career at UAL. I'll encourage him to join us here. Sail- he might make a good guest for lunch at the SYC, or perhaps we can take you out for a bite at the Hangar Inn at Thun Field. Invite the Formans, too? Let you and them duke it out over who the REAL DB Cooper actually is/was...
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andrade1812 You say: "Not sure the FBI appreciates the annual "Look at this case the FBI couldn't solve" news cycle right before they visit family on Thanksgiving. However, it wouldn't surprise me if the FBI had a short list of people they thought were Cooper, but never talk about because they don't have actionable evidence."
I asy: Well the Seattle FBI Office has all they need to solve the case now as I gave Ayn Dirtrich in the Seattle FBI Office all the info they need to solve the case and she replied to me that she had passed my information on to the Seattle FBI "Case Agent".
The heart of my information was that Sheridan Peterson's Alibi to his where about at the time of Norjak was phony and my information was the FLAW in the Alibi that he was in Nepal delivering one of his two children (a requirement of their Female Doctor that all men should deliver their own children) and could not been at the scene of the crime for Norjak.
The FLAW was that neither of his two children were born in the year of Norjak (1971) but were born in: Son 1970 and the Daughter in 1972 and in Nepal per persopo.com.
That completely blows Sheridan's Alibi and the FBI can use that lie to the FBI (a Federal Crime) to trade for no jail time if Sheridan tells the rest of the DB Cooper story.
So, maybe by this Thanksgiving the FBI will have finally solved the Norjak case. If not then it looks like a FBI cover-up as they have all they need. CASE SOLVED or why else would Sheridan have told a lie to the FBI about his where about during Norjak?
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Please, in the name of decency, before anyone is led to the gallows, study dossier on new person. An opportunity for public viewing approaches, but patience is required.
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Georger wrote: "I made posts about this years ago based on what our Boeing guy remembered, who knew several of the skydiving club guys ... our guy gave me a rundown on what the club had told the FBI (basically that Cooper probably didn't survive). Our guy was pretty graphic in what he stated had been described to the FBI: shoes coming off, money bag doing body and head damage, arms being pulled out of their sockets, etc... Can you add anything ? "
I have jumped from a DC 9-21 jet airliner doing about 140 mph and a firewalled C 130 doing at least twice that speed. Shoes didn't come off (Nike running shoes), arms and legs remained attached. I've also jumped with a bag full of radiotelemetry gear affixed to one leg. No death spin, but I did have to compensate for asymmetrical drag. Bag didn't bang around much, it pulls its tiedown restraints to their length limit and stays put.
I haven't talked with any Boeing Skydiving Club members but I think Sailshaw did. Not much point listening to jumpers who theorize that the DBC jump was sure death, because I have contrary EMPIRICAL evidence. Night and the lack of a horizon could cause problems but pulling off the stairs while facing forward solves all of them.
Glad to answer any more jet jump Qs, In 2018 I will have half a century in skydiving. Gotta stay healthy so I can make the 50 year mark. It is still a HUGE thrill. So addictive.
377
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Georger wrote: "I made posts about this years ago based on what our Boeing guy remembered, who knew several of the skydiving club guys ... our guy gave me a rundown on what the club had told the FBI (basically that Cooper probably didn't survive). Our guy was pretty graphic in what he stated had been described to the FBI: shoes coming off, money bag doing body and head damage, arms being pulled out of their sockets, etc... Can you add anything ? "
I have jumped from a DC 9-21 jet airliner doing about 140 mph and a firewalled C 130 doing at least twice that speed. Shoes didn't come off (Nike running shoes), arms and legs remained attached. I've also jumped with a bag full of radiotelemetry gear affixed to one leg. No death spin, but I did have to compensate for asymmetrical drag. Bag didn't bang around much, it pulls its tiedown restraints to their length limit and stays put.
I haven't talked with any Boeing Skydiving Club members but I think Sailshaw did. Not much point listening to jumpers who theorize that the DBC jump was sure death, because I have contrary EMPIRICAL evidence. Night and the lack of a horizon could cause problems but pulling off the stairs while facing forward solves all of them.
Glad to answer any more jet jump Qs, In 2018 I will have half a century in skydiving. Gotta stay healthy so I can make the 50 year mark. It is still a HUGE thrill. So addictive.
377
Your reaction/opinions were the same as Guru's. All of this is back in the old thread at DZ. But, almost as soon as the FBI released the Boeing Skydiving Club's 'evaluation' - or whoever's evaluation it was - experienced skydivers surfaced and gave counter advise.. evidenced in a number of newspaper interviews published during that period. Cossey gave his opinion: 'if the chute opened Cooper survived'.
Barring a Washougal washdown theory, if Cooper bailed way north of the Columbia there is no way to get money down to a drainage area where it could flow up to Tina Bar, which almost guarantees Cooper survived and transported the money at least to the Vancouver area. What happened from there - who knows.
If Cooper jumped near the Columbia itself, then another scenario applies but, there is no concrete proof that happened.
For the record, Placencia/Boeing thought the jump was a (very) destructive event. He was sure Cooper had been killed. He said anything else was "utter nonsense". I can imagine an FBI agent listening to all of this and kind of shrugging his/her shoulders and thinking "WTF"! :) ... which to my mind typifies this whole case! The Vortex of conflicting opinions-advice with almost no hard evidence to resolve basic questions.
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G wrote:"For the record, Placencia/Boeing thought the jump was a (very) destructive event. He was sure Cooper had been killed. He said anything else was "utter nonsense". I can imagine an FBI agent listening to all of this and kind of shrugging his/her shoulders and thinking "WTF"! :) ... which to my mind typifies this whole case! The Vortex of conflicting opinions-advice with almost no hard evidence to resolve basic questions."
The utter nonsense was calling the jump a certain death event. Really good chance for survival if the chute opened.
I still wonder about the metals TK and his science crew found on the tie. Not ordinary stuff. Sailshaw says SP could have picked those up from the Boeing scrap bins. I can see Aluminum turnings and pure Titanium being there, but what about Bismuth?
And what about the "turkey gobble" neck anatomy that Mitchell noticed?
377
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Guy in a business suit jumping, pre Norjack: see video at 15:55
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1p0sal7Zhek
377
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DB Cooper R & D Department...
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.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBN3xfGrx_U
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G wrote:"For the record, Placencia/Boeing thought the jump was a (very) destructive event. He was sure Cooper had been killed. He said anything else was "utter nonsense". I can imagine an FBI agent listening to all of this and kind of shrugging his/her shoulders and thinking "WTF"! :) ... which to my mind typifies this whole case! The Vortex of conflicting opinions-advice with almost no hard evidence to resolve basic questions."
The utter nonsense was calling the jump a certain death event. Really good chance for survival if the chute opened.
I still wonder about the metals TK and his science crew found on the tie. Not ordinary stuff. Sailshaw says SP could have picked those up from the Boeing scrap bins. I can see Aluminum turnings and pure Titanium being there, but what about Bismuth?
And what about the "turkey gobble" neck anatomy that Mitchell noticed?
377
I dont know. Wish I did.
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Georger You say: "377, have you ever talked to any of the Boeing Skydiving Club guys that were consulted on the Cooper case? I think Guru talked to one of them but I would have to go back to see the posts ...
I made posts about this years ago based on what our Boeing guy remembered, who knew several of the skydiving club guys ... our guy gave me a rundown on what the club had told the FBI (basically that Cooper probably didn't survive). Our guy was pretty graphic in what he stated had been described to the FBI: shoes coming off, money bag doing body and head damage, arms being pulled out of their sockets, etc... Can you add anything ?"
I say: Bruce Smith and I had lunch with the President of the Boeing Skydiving Club (Allen McCarther) at my yacht club a few years ago and he was convinced that DB made it and it was an easy jump. He also thought DB would have had two rolls of Ace bandages (in his carry-on paper sack) to do ankle raps to hold on his loafers and beef-up his ankles like jump boots do.
I also had lunch with Scott Gilson at my club yesterday to talk about Boeing 727 demos at Moses Lake and the sales film that was made for government customers like Air America (George Doll - CIA) and World Airline (also CIA). Scott was a Boeing Salesman for over 30 years and sold all models of Boeing planes including the 727. He said the film at Moses Lake demonstrated the 727 could take-off, fly, and land with the air stairs fully deployed. And showed how they could be deployed/retracted when in flight at slowed speed (flaps and landing gear deployed - flying dirty). George Doll was interested in purchasing the 727 because of the aft air stairs and World Airline did the same per Everett Johnson a 727 pilot for Air America.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Georger You say: "377, have you ever talked to any of the Boeing Skydiving Club guys that were consulted on the Cooper case? I think Guru talked to one of them but I would have to go back to see the posts ...
I made posts about this years ago based on what our Boeing guy remembered, who knew several of the skydiving club guys ... our guy gave me a rundown on what the club had told the FBI (basically that Cooper probably didn't survive). Our guy was pretty graphic in what he stated had been described to the FBI: shoes coming off, money bag doing body and head damage, arms being pulled out of their sockets, etc... Can you add anything ?"
I say: Bruce Smith and I had lunch with the President of the Boeing Skydiving Club (Allen McCarther) at my yacht club a few years ago and he was convinced that DB made it and it was an easy jump. He also thought DB would have had two rolls of Ace bandages (in his carry-on paper sack) to do ankle raps to hold on his loafers and beef-up his ankles like jump boots do.
I also had lunch with Scott Gilson at my club yesterday to talk about Boeing 727 demos at Moses Lake and the sales film that was made for government customers like Air America (George Doll - CIA) and World Airline (also CIA). Scott was a Boeing Salesman for over 30 years and sold all models of Boeing planes including the 727. He said the film at Moses Lake demonstrated the 727 could take-off, fly, and land with the air stairs fully deployed. And showed how they could be deployed/retracted when in flight at slowed speed (flaps and landing gear deployed - flying dirty). George Doll was interested in purchasing the 727 because of the aft air stairs and World Airline did the same per Everett Johnson a 727 pilot for Air America.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
That's very interesting! Great post!
I now will go back and look for your old posts at DZ...
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Georger You say: "377, have you ever talked to any of the Boeing Skydiving Club guys that were consulted on the Cooper case? I think Guru talked to one of them but I would have to go back to see the posts ...
I made posts about this years ago based on what our Boeing guy remembered, who knew several of the skydiving club guys ... our guy gave me a rundown on what the club had told the FBI (basically that Cooper probably didn't survive). Our guy was pretty graphic in what he stated had been described to the FBI: shoes coming off, money bag doing body and head damage, arms being pulled out of their sockets, etc... Can you add anything ?"
I say: Bruce Smith and I had lunch with the President of the Boeing Skydiving Club (Allen McCarther) at my yacht club a few years ago and he was convinced that DB made it and it was an easy jump. He also thought DB would have had two rolls of Ace bandages (in his carry-on paper sack) to do ankle raps to hold on his loafers and beef-up his ankles like jump boots do.
I also had lunch with Scott Gilson at my club yesterday to talk about Boeing 727 demos at Moses Lake and the sales film that was made for government customers like Air America (George Doll - CIA) and World Airline (also CIA). Scott was a Boeing Salesman for over 30 years and sold all models of Boeing planes including the 727. He said the film at Moses Lake demonstrated the 727 could take-off, fly, and land with the air stairs fully deployed. And showed how they could be deployed/retracted when in flight at slowed speed (flaps and landing gear deployed - flying dirty). George Doll was interested in purchasing the 727 because of the aft air stairs and World Airline did the same per Everett Johnson a 727 pilot for Air America.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
That's very interesting! Great post!
I now will go back and look for your old posts at DZ...
Basically, Cooper knew the information that was supposedly in the film that Scott Gilson refers to. Was Gilson ever interviewed by the FBI? Essentially, Gilson is also saying that the CIA and ever body at Moses Lake who looked out a window knew the same thing.
Sailshaw here is your chance to be a hero. Find Gerald Osterman, the chief of the Seattle ATC Center at the time of the hijacking, treat him to a five martini lunch at the SYC, and then ask him how you can get a complete set of the hijacking radio transcripts that he prepared for the FBI.
He may even be able to tell you who licked those stamps you are so interested in.
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Robert99 you say: "Sailshaw here is your chance to be a hero. Find Gerald Osterman, the chief of the Seattle ATC Center at the time of the hijacking, treat him to a five martini lunch at the SYC, and then ask him how you can get a complete set of the hijacking radio transcripts that he prepared for the FBI."
I say : I am not looking to be a hero, just interested in the whole story as from the FLAW in the phony alibi of Sheridan Peterson that he was in Nepal and not doing the Norjak caper, I now know for sure that Sheridan is DB Cooper. However, it would be nice to hear the rest of the story.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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More Grist for the Mill on Petey:
Taking a closer look at Sheridan, his timelines don't work for me. I brought this up at the DZ some time ago, and Snowmman and my Best Friend Georger tore into it with some justification, but still the inconsistencies linger for me. Here is my current understanding of Petey's whereabouts:
1961- Sail's place, UW, unemployed and broke grad student.
1962 Bubblelator op at the World's Fair
1963-1964 - Kirkland HS, English teacher, writing part time for the Eastside Journal
1965 - Mississippi
1966 Clark AB and teaching school for the USAF
1966?-1969? - Vietnam
1970 - 1972 Nepal, birthing kids, living in the mud hut
Where does Boeing fit in?
Where does his 7 years in Vietnam get squeezed in?
Also, how exactly did Petey, his tie, the metal filings, and November 24, 1971 all happen:
Did he leave Nepal/Vietnam and come to the PNW and re-visit a storage container before the skyjacking, getting all of his old clothes out and wore them to the skyjacking? Or did DB Cooper play dress-up at Value Village on Nov 23rd, etc... and just happened to pick a tie that had been at the Boeing scrap box, once upon a time...???
I think we need to dig in to this.
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More Grist for the Mill on Petey:
Taking a closer look at Sheridan, his timelines don't work for me. I brought this up at the DZ some time ago, and Snowmman and my Best Friend Georger tore into it with some justification, but still the inconsistencies linger for me. Here is my current understanding of Petey's whereabouts:
1961- Sail's place, UW, unemployed and broke grad student.
1962 Bubblelator op at the World's Fair
1963-1964 - Kirkland HS, English teacher, writing part time for the Eastside Journal
1965 - Mississippi
1966 Clark AB and teaching school for the USAF
1966?-1969? - Vietnam
1970 - 1972 Nepal, birthing kids, living in the mud hut
Where does Boeing fit in?
Where does his 7 years in Vietnam get squeezed in?
Also, how exactly did Petey, his tie, the metal filings, and November 24, 1971 all happen:
Did he leave Nepal/Vietnam and come to the PNW and re-visit a storage container before the skyjacking, getting all of his old clothes out and wore them to the skyjacking? Or did DB Cooper play dress-up at Value Village on Nov 23rd, etc... and just happened to pick a tie that had been at the Boeing scrap box, once upon a time...???
I think we need to dig in to this.
Bruce,
You don't have to dig a hole to the center of the earth to conclude that Peterson, KC, Duane Weber, and probably ever other "Cooper candidate" that has been mentioned here or elsewhere didn't have anything to do with the hijacking. All the claims connecting them are baloney.
So put your shovel away and relax. Feel free to watch the anti-Trump riots here in Arizona today.
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LD Cooper is DB Cooper according to Marla Cooper..
Duane Weber is DB Cooper according to Jo...
Christiansen is DB Cooper according to Paul Geivett, and Blevins only "suspects" Kenny being Cooper (laughs)
Roberts own words 8)
we really think we solved the 'DB Cooper' case for you.
Wonder what MikeJ thinks about that? never mind, we know who MikeJ is, don't we (wink)
Now we have another person solving the case....Sailshaw, claiming the case is solved, and Sheridan Peterson is DB Cooper...
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More Grist for the Mill on Petey:
Taking a closer look at Sheridan, his timelines don't work for me. I brought this up at the DZ some time ago, and Snowmman and my Best Friend Georger tore into it with some justification, but still the inconsistencies linger for me. Here is my current understanding of Petey's whereabouts:
1961- Sail's place, UW, unemployed and broke grad student.
1962 Bubblelator op at the World's Fair
1963-1964 - Kirkland HS, English teacher, writing part time for the Eastside Journal
1965 - Mississippi
1966 Clark AB and teaching school for the USAF
1966?-1969? - Vietnam
1970 - 1972 Nepal, birthing kids, living in the mud hut
Where does Boeing fit in?
Where does his 7 years in Vietnam get squeezed in?
Also, how exactly did Petey, his tie, the metal filings, and November 24, 1971 all happen:
Did he leave Nepal/Vietnam and come to the PNW and re-visit a storage container before the skyjacking, getting all of his old clothes out and wore them to the skyjacking? Or did DB Cooper play dress-up at Value Village on Nov 23rd, etc... and just happened to pick a tie that had been at the Boeing scrap box, once upon a time...???
I think we need to dig in to this.
Bruce,
You don't have to dig a hole to the center of the earth to conclude that Peterson, KC, Duane Weber, and probably ever other "Cooper candidate" that has been mentioned here or elsewhere didn't have anything to do with the hijacking. All the claims connecting them are baloney.
So put your shovel away and relax. Feel free to watch the anti-Trump riots here in Arizona today.
+1 :)
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LD Cooper is DB Cooper according to Marla Cooper..
Duane Weber is DB Cooper according to Jo...
Christiansen is DB Cooper according to Paul Geivett, and Blevins only "suspects" Kenny being Cooper (laughs)
Roberts own words 8)
we really think we solved the 'DB Cooper' case for you.
Wonder what MikeJ thinks about that? never mind, we know who MikeJ is, don't we (wink)
Now we have another person solving the case....Sailshaw, claiming the case is solved, and Sheridan Peterson is DB Cooper...
I am too hard on Sailshaw - at least he knew Sheridan and had some real info he thinks applies. That has merit. So it may surprise Sail to read that I dont put Sail in the same category as these others. Sail is in a wonderful position to do some meaningful interviews (Boeing and otherwise). I respect him for his tenacity. Sail has real merit!
This message was approved by the Georgia campaign for dogcatcher! :) :) :) :)
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More Grist for the Mill on Petey:
Taking a closer look at Sheridan, his timelines don't work for me. I brought this up at the DZ some time ago, and Snowmman and my Best Friend Georger tore into it with some justification, but still the inconsistencies linger for me. Here is my current understanding of Petey's whereabouts:
1961- Sail's place, UW, unemployed and broke grad student.
1962 Bubblelator op at the World's Fair
1963-1964 - Kirkland HS, English teacher, writing part time for the Eastside Journal
1965 - Mississippi
1966 Clark AB and teaching school for the USAF
1966?-1969? - Vietnam
1970 - 1972 Nepal, birthing kids, living in the mud hut
Where does Boeing fit in?
Where does his 7 years in Vietnam get squeezed in?
Also, how exactly did Petey, his tie, the metal filings, and November 24, 1971 all happen:
Did he leave Nepal/Vietnam and come to the PNW and re-visit a storage container before the skyjacking, getting all of his old clothes out and wore them to the skyjacking? Or did DB Cooper play dress-up at Value Village on Nov 23rd, etc... and just happened to pick a tie that had been at the Boeing scrap box, once upon a time...???
I think we need to dig in to this.
Bruce,
You don't have to dig a hole to the center of the earth to conclude that Peterson, KC, Duane Weber, and probably ever other "Cooper candidate" that has been mentioned here or elsewhere didn't have anything to do with the hijacking. All the claims connecting them are baloney.
So put your shovel away and relax. Feel free to watch the anti-Trump riots here in Arizona today.
+1 :)
According to a fellow that was interviewed on Tucson TV this evening, he had never voted before and was completely apolitical. But Trump inspired him to start exercising his First Amendment rights, so he attended the Trump event today and, while being ejected as a protester, was assaulted by Trump supporters, one of whom was arrested. It seems that Trump inspired him to become anti-Trump.
[The above was corrected to indicate that a Trump supporter, not the anti-Trump protester, was arrested.]
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More Grist for the Mill on Petey:
Taking a closer look at Sheridan, his timelines don't work for me. I brought this up at the DZ some time ago, and Snowmman and my Best Friend Georger tore into it with some justification, but still the inconsistencies linger for me. Here is my current understanding of Petey's whereabouts:
1961- Sail's place, UW, unemployed and broke grad student.
1962 Bubblelator op at the World's Fair
1963-1964 - Kirkland HS, English teacher, writing part time for the Eastside Journal
1965 - Mississippi
1966 Clark AB and teaching school for the USAF
1966?-1969? - Vietnam
1970 - 1972 Nepal, birthing kids, living in the mud hut
Where does Boeing fit in?
Where does his 7 years in Vietnam get squeezed in?
Also, how exactly did Petey, his tie, the metal filings, and November 24, 1971 all happen:
Did he leave Nepal/Vietnam and come to the PNW and re-visit a storage container before the skyjacking, getting all of his old clothes out and wore them to the skyjacking? Or did DB Cooper play dress-up at Value Village on Nov 23rd, etc... and just happened to pick a tie that had been at the Boeing scrap box, once upon a time...???
I think we need to dig in to this.
Bruce,
You don't have to dig a hole to the center of the earth to conclude that Peterson, KC, Duane Weber, and probably ever other "Cooper candidate" that has been mentioned here or elsewhere didn't have anything to do with the hijacking. All the claims connecting them are baloney.
So put your shovel away and relax. Feel free to watch the anti-Trump riots here in Arizona today.
+1 :)
According to a fellow that was interviewed on Tucson TV this evening, he had never voted before and was completely apolitical. But Trump inspired him to start exercising his First Amendment rights, so he attended the Trump event today and, while being ejected as a protester, was assaulted by Trump supporters, one of whom was arrested. It seems that Trump inspired him to become anti-Trump.
[The above was corrected to indicate that a Trump supporter, not the anti-Trump protester, was arrested.]
same thing happened countless times in 1930s Germany. ::)
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More Grist for the Mill on Petey:
Taking a closer look at Sheridan, his timelines don't work for me. I brought this up at the DZ some time ago, and Snowmman and my Best Friend Georger tore into it with some justification, but still the inconsistencies linger for me. Here is my current understanding of Petey's whereabouts:
1961- Sail's place, UW, unemployed and broke grad student.
1962 Bubblelator op at the World's Fair
1963-1964 - Kirkland HS, English teacher, writing part time for the Eastside Journal
1965 - Mississippi
1966 Clark AB and teaching school for the USAF
1966?-1969? - Vietnam
1970 - 1972 Nepal, birthing kids, living in the mud hut
Where does Boeing fit in?
Where does his 7 years in Vietnam get squeezed in?
Also, how exactly did Petey, his tie, the metal filings, and November 24, 1971 all happen:
Did he leave Nepal/Vietnam and come to the PNW and re-visit a storage container before the skyjacking, getting all of his old clothes out and wore them to the skyjacking? Or did DB Cooper play dress-up at Value Village on Nov 23rd, etc... and just happened to pick a tie that had been at the Boeing scrap box, once upon a time...???
I think we need to dig in to this.
Bruce,
You don't have to dig a hole to the center of the earth to conclude that Peterson, KC, Duane Weber, and probably ever other "Cooper candidate" that has been mentioned here or elsewhere didn't have anything to do with the hijacking. All the claims connecting them are baloney.
So put your shovel away and relax. Feel free to watch the anti-Trump riots here in Arizona today.
I always keep an eye on Arizona, Robert. Don Burnworth died there, and Robb Heady now lives there. And my NY-Ex has family there. And Cartel Land was a great docu about the activities at the border... and Sheriff Arpaio - gotta keep an eye on Joe. The Trumpsters want him as The Donald's VP.
But three cars blocked the Interstate to Trump's rally (in Joe's hometown) for 3 hours? Whew. In New York, that would never happen - Fuddgetaboutit! Can I get an Amen on that?! You'd have a new, six-lane interstate! Clearly, if The Donald grew up in AZ, he would not be The Donald he is today.
I think I can speak for many-if-not-most New Yorkers and say that we've known for a very long time that The Donald is a Total Bullshit Artist. I have cousin, named Justin, that has always acted like Trump, and as a kid we called him "Prince." When he grew up, even his mother called him The Justin, in homage to DJT. But until recently, we never really knew how good a bullshit artist The Donald really is. World Class, Olympian. Impressive and downright scary.
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Skip the politics, or go over to the "Totally Off Topic" thread....
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Will do. Just a momentary digression...
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Skip the politics, or go over to the "Totally Off Topic" thread....
Good (FAST!) call. Shutter for President!
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Bruce: You say: "Quote from: Bruce A. Smith on March 19, 2016, 05:09:18 PM
More Grist for the Mill on Petey:
Taking a closer look at Sheridan, his timelines don't work for me. I brought this up at the DZ some time ago, and Snowmman and my Best Friend Georger tore into it with some justification, but still the inconsistencies linger for me. Here is my current understanding of Petey's whereabouts:
1961- Sail's place, UW, unemployed and broke grad student.
1962 Bubblelator op at the World's Fair
1963-1964 - Kirkland HS, English teacher, writing part time for the Eastside Journal
1965 - Mississippi
1966 Clark AB and teaching school for the USAF
1966?-1969? - Vietnam
1970 - 1972 Nepal, birthing kids, living in the mud hut
Where does Boeing fit in?
Where does his 7 years in Vietnam get squeezed in?"
I say: Sheridan was just starting his Bubbleator Job at the Worlds Fair when he stayed at my place for a month in 1961. Also, he was not a grad student but did have an English major degree from Univ. of Mo. And you have it correct that he did not birth any of his two kids in Nepal during 1971 the year of Norjak. That is the FLAW in his perfect alibi and where he lied to the FBI. Would only DB Cooper lie about his whereabouts 1971?
I THINK SO! And he started at Boeing just after leaving my place in 1961 to work in the "Manuals and Handbooks Group.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Well, this is where we get into the bottle-neck on Petey's timeline - 1962.
1961- living at Sail's house. But by early 1962 is working at the Seattle World's Fair. At some point he starts working for Boeing, presumably. But is he part-time, seasonal, or full time?
Exactly what is Petey doing during 1962? Is this the only time Petey's tie did the titanium tub dip?
By 1963 he is working as a school teacher, presumably full time. And then he started working for the Eastside Journal, presumably part-time covering high school sports. Was he still at Boeing? How long did he work there? Summers when he wasn't teaching?
Further, how come Petey never talks about working at Boeing? He talks about other defense contractors, but not Big B.
Petey was a high school teacher in Kirkland from 63-65 as I recall. Then he must have gone to Mississippi in '65 when the March to Selma and voter registration stuff was happening. Don't know how long he was in Mississippi, either. Weeks? Months? Summer?
We also don't know exactly when he went to the Philippines and Vietnam, so all that has to be fit into the timeline, too, because by 1970 he is out of Vietnam and his first kid is born in Nepal. Hence, his claim to have 7 years in Vietnam must be bogus.
Also, Sail, my recollection of what you have told me is that you saw Petey at the World's Fair long after he had left your place. Also, it is my understanding that the Seattle World's Fair opened to the public in the spring of 1962. No?
I also thought you had told me that Petey had told you when you two had first met that he was a grad student at the UW, circa 1961. No? Yes, I remember that he had a BA in English and Journalism from the University of Missouri, '51 if I remember correctly.
Bottom Line
Where is the thin black tie impregnated with metal filings during the period of 1962-1971? Nepal? Storage locker in Seattle? Some box at Goodwill? Were titanium filings in Building 9-1011 in 1962? When did work on the SST start at Boeing?
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Skip the politics, or go over to the "Totally Off Topic" thread....
Good (FAST!) call. Shutter for President!
Or Vice-Prez. I understand there might be an opening.
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Please, in the name of decency, before anyone is led to the gallows, study dossier on new person. An opportunity for public viewing approaches, but patience is required.
I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, but I haven't heard anything. Prospector: do you have a new suspect to bring forward?
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Bruce: We know what Sheridan was doing in 1962 as he was working as a contract worker at Boeing and published his add for the Boeing Skydiving Club on July 12, 1962. We also know the Official start and stop times for the Worlds Fair was April 21 to Oct. 21 of 1962. I saws him there in his space suit as the elevator operator of the Bubbleator.
The Boeing SST that required so much research using titanium started in the mid 1950's and was cancelled in 1971. The Materials and Processes Lab would have had both types of Titanium in their scrap tub skids during the SST work period. I saw Sheridan at his office on the 2nd floor of the 9-101 bldg where my office was 100 ft to the South of his office.
I might have the date that he stayed at my place off by a year as it fits better into your time plot to have him at my place in the Spring of 1962. When you are 82 years old it takes a time plot to get things straight. I know Sheridan was just starting at the Worlds Fair when at my place and found out from me how to get hired on at Boeing in that same year an did so with the add in the Boeing News on July 12, 1962. Hope this helps with your time line.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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... still collating and sorting. ... :)
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Thanks, Sail, for the clarification of when Petey was at Boeing and in what capacity.
We still have the sticky wicket of a dangling tie in a titanium tub in 1962 still dripping metal filings in 2010, after sitting in a cardboard box for 40 years on 3rd St in Seattle. BTW: does anyone else cringe while watching a cop show on TV and seeing what REAL evidence boxes look like, as opposed to what the Norjak stuff is stored in? Yee-Gawds, as my Aunt Teddy would say, the evidence container looks like something from my grandmother's attic.
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"1991 saw the publication of D. B. Cooper: The Real McCoy, by FBI agents Bernie Rhodes and Russell P. Calame. Both authors investigated McCoy's skyjacking case, and their book posits that Cooper and McCoy were really the same person. They cited similar methods of hijacking, and a tie and Brigham Young University medallion with McCoy's initials on the back left on the plane by Cooper."
That is from the Wikipedia article on Richard McCoy. I'm curious about the Medallion. I checked the DZ forum and found a post by Sluggo saying the Medallion find has been "thoroughly discredited". Anyone have a source for said discrediting?
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Not me. In fact, I've only heard about the medallion briefly. Discredited, eh? It's not mentioned in Calame's and Rhodes' book, so the original source must be outside of that book, and only Gawd Knows where on the discrediting.
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"1991 saw the publication of D. B. Cooper: The Real McCoy, by FBI agents Bernie Rhodes and Russell P. Calame. Both authors investigated McCoy's skyjacking case, and their book posits that Cooper and McCoy were really the same person. They cited similar methods of hijacking, and a tie and Brigham Young University medallion with McCoy's initials on the back left on the plane by Cooper."
That is from the Wikipedia article on Richard McCoy. I'm curious about the Medallion. I checked the DZ forum and found a post by Sluggo saying the Medallion find has been "thoroughly discredited". Anyone have a source for said discrediting?
The Medallion (pure gold they say) was left in the inflated yellow life raft left behind on the plane - each chute had one of these life rafts packed in it (they say). :-X
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"1991 saw the publication of D. B. Cooper: The Real McCoy, by FBI agents Bernie Rhodes and Russell P. Calame. Both authors investigated McCoy's skyjacking case, and their book posits that Cooper and McCoy were really the same person. They cited similar methods of hijacking, and a tie and Brigham Young University medallion with McCoy's initials on the back left on the plane by Cooper."
That is from the Wikipedia article on Richard McCoy. I'm curious about the Medallion. I checked the DZ forum and found a post by Sluggo saying the Medallion find has been "thoroughly discredited". Anyone have a source for said discrediting?
The Medallion (pure gold they say) was left in the inflated yellow life raft left behind on the plane - each chute had one of these life rafts packed in it (they say). :-X
Bob Knoss was a big pusher of this mythical medallion 8)
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"1991 saw the publication of D. B. Cooper: The Real McCoy, by FBI agents Bernie Rhodes and Russell P. Calame. Both authors investigated McCoy's skyjacking case, and their book posits that Cooper and McCoy were really the same person. They cited similar methods of hijacking, and a tie and Brigham Young University medallion with McCoy's initials on the back left on the plane by Cooper."
That is from the Wikipedia article on Richard McCoy. I'm curious about the Medallion. I checked the DZ forum and found a post by Sluggo saying the Medallion find has been "thoroughly discredited". Anyone have a source for said discrediting?
The Medallion (pure gold they say) was left in the inflated yellow life raft left behind on the plane - each chute had one of these life rafts packed in it (they say). :-X
Bob Knoss was a big pusher of this mythical medallion 8)
I shouldn't be so cynical. What it is is "sad". :-X
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Please, in the name of decency, before anyone is led to the gallows, study dossier on new person. An opportunity for public viewing approaches, but patience is required.
I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, but I haven't heard anything. Prospector: do you have a new suspect to bring forward?
It’s not my place to use the term “suspect”, but yes, a new candidate, alive and well, “turkey gobble” and all.
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Please, in the name of decency, before anyone is led to the gallows, study dossier on new person. An opportunity for public viewing approaches, but patience is required.
I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, but I haven't heard anything. Prospector: do you have a new suspect to bring forward?
It’s not my place to use the term “suspect”, but yes, a new candidate, alive and well, “turkey gobble” and all.
We love new "candidates". Please elaborate. I can see if you don't want to accuse a living person, but can you tell us the nature of your candidate and why you suspect him. There has to be some middle ground between being coy and revealing an identity.
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Please, in the name of decency, before anyone is led to the gallows, study dossier on new person. An opportunity for public viewing approaches, but patience is required.
I was waiting for the other shoe to drop, but I haven't heard anything. Prospector: do you have a new suspect to bring forward?
It’s not my place to use the term “suspect”, but yes, a new candidate, alive and well, “turkey gobble” and all.
We love new "candidates". Please elaborate. I can see if you don't want to accuse a living person, but can you tell us the nature of your candidate and why you suspect him. There has to be some middle ground between being coy and revealing an identity.
First, please review my earlier and admittedly cryptic assessment of where Cooper could be found. Deduce from that the character of the new candidate and those who currently surround him. Then do the math: Alive + Well = Risk.
Over the last several months I have researched exhaustively what little is known about the fugitive Cooper. Every effort was made to find something – anything – that did not match what is accepted as a physical, profile, or character attribute – I have only failed to see him in a suit, smoke a cigarette, drink a Bourbon and Seven, or explain the titanium. The dossier, to which I allude, is as complete as I believe can be achieved at this time with photos, documents, A/V, and notes of personal observations that clearly demonstrate every match made.
I am not suggesting that the new candidate is the fugitive Cooper, but I will make the claim he matches the physical description and profile of the person sought. I leave the fingerprint and DNA analysis to others.
My gut feeling is, if the system is functioning and the corruption observed is low level, the heavy lifters will soon be rewarded. Prepare the vortex for touchdown.
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Bring 'er in for the landing, 'Spector.
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There has been nothing new in the DB Cooper case in the last ____ 13,204 days. Still counting.
:o
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There has been nothing new in the DB Cooper case in the last ____ 13,204 days. Still counting.
:o
Ah.. I went into Microsoft Excel and subtracted 13,204 from today's date and got February 13, 1980. The money find.....
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There has been nothing new in the DB Cooper case in the last ____ 13,204 days. Still counting.
:o
Ah.. I went into Microsoft Excel and subtracted 13,204 from today's date and got February 13, 1980. The money find.....
Radio transcripts....
Money analysis....
Tie analysis..
Crew transcripts taken shortly after the hijacking...
Problems in the known flight path....
Dan Cooper comics...(possible link)
I'm sure there is more....
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Georger: Have you been asleep since the money find in 1980? Per your post here you say : "There has been nothing new in the DB Cooper case in the last ____ 13,204 days. Still counting."
I say: Did you miss my post this year about the new finding of the FLAW in the alibi of Sheridan Peterson? He claimed that he was delivering one of his two children (as required by the Female Doctor) born in Nepal at the time of Norjak and could not have done the crime with proof to the FBI (possibly a birth certificate with an altered date). The FLAW that I found was the Son was actually born in Nepal in 1970 the year before Norjak and the Daughter Ginger was actually born in Nepal in 1972 the year after Norjak and while Norjak was in 1971 so neither child was born in the year of Norjak per the public records available from persopo.com.
This blows the case wide open as why else would Sheridan have lied to the FBI (a Federal crime with jail time) unless he is DB Cooper? I am hoping the FBI will trade him no jail time if he comes clean and tells us how he did the skyjacking, where the loot went, and etc...
Georger this really solves the case and is really breaking news as the FBI now have this info that I sent the Seattle Office and Ayn Dietrich returned her e-mail saying she had sent the info above to the Case Agent.
I suspect the FBI will announce the case solved by this November 24 2016 in time for the celebration of Norjak. If not then there is the question of "is this a cover-up and there is more to the story and can answer why it has gone unsolved for so long" Was Sheridan FBI or CIA? He is now in his 90's and still living retired in California.
So, Georger did you stay awake long enough to read this post?
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Georger: Have you been asleep since the money find in 1980? Per your post here you say : "There has been nothing new in the DB Cooper case in the last ____ 13,204 days. Still counting."
I say: Did you miss my post this year about the new finding of the FLAW in the alibi of Sheridan Peterson? He claimed that he was delivering one of his two children (as required by the Female Doctor) born in Nepal at the time of Norjak and could not have done the crime with proof to the FBI (possibly a birth certificate with an altered date). The FLAW that I found was the Son was actually born in Nepal in 1970 the year before Norjak and the Daughter Ginger was actually born in Nepal in 1972 the year after Norjak and while Norjak was in 1971 so neither child was born in the year of Norjak per the public records available from persopo.com.
This blows the case wide open as why else would Sheridan have lied to the FBI (a Federal crime with jail time) unless he is DB Cooper? I am hoping the FBI will trade him no jail time if he comes clean and tells us how he did the skyjacking, where the loot went, and etc...
Georger this really solves the case and is really breaking news as the FBI now have this info that I sent the Seattle Office and Ayn Dietrich returned her e-mail saying she had sent the info above to the Case Agent.
I suspect the FBI will announce the case solved by this November 24 2016 in time for the celebration of Norjak. If not then there is the question of "is this a cover-up and there is more to the story and can answer why it has gone unsolved for so long" Was Sheridan FBI or CIA? He is now in his 90's and still living retired in California.
So, Georger did you stay awake long enough to read this post?
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Play it again, Sam. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz' :(
"There has been nothing new in the DB Cooper case in the last ____ 13,205.5 days. Still counting."
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Can't bet those odds. I guess will shut it down?
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Can't bet those odds. I guess will shut it down?
Ask Sailshaw .... he's the one pushing the panic button! :)
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Georger you say "Play it again, Sam. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz' :(
"There has been nothing new in the DB Cooper case in the last ____ 13,205.5 days. Still counting."
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 01:23:39 PM by georger »"
I say that says it all Georger, as you have nothing to say as usual. The rest of us can discuss the case with intelligent discourse in the mean time.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Georger you say "Play it again, Sam. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz' :(
"There has been nothing new in the DB Cooper case in the last ____ 13,205.5 days. Still counting."
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 01:23:39 PM by georger »"
I say that says it all Georger, as you have nothing to say as usual. The rest of us can discuss the case with intelligent discourse in the mean time.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
You have me confused with somebody else. I am a mere spectator to your fine art of claims and personal attacks.
People have been asking you for some "proof" of your claims for months/years. We have read your endless claims that Peterson lied on matters you say are crucial to the DB Cooper case. Are you ready to finally give us some proof of your claims. Likewise are you ready to give us some proof that any of your claims has anything to do with the DB Cooper case? You have yet to actually put Peterson on the plane, or anyone else for that matter!
You keep attacking me but I have told you hundreds of times I am not the FBI and I cannot do anything in this whole matter except sit here and read your posts of frustration, and watch the coins spin as you drop them now going on five years, or more?
Suggestion: You also fail to make some vital connections, so far as I can tell. You keep saying that all the FBI needs to do is run dna on the socalled 'Cooper Letters' stamps and that will prove Peterson was Cooper? Your test, it seems to me, might connect Peterson with the socalled Cooper Letters but that still does not prove he was DB Cooper. I mean, nobody knows who wrote those socalled 'Cooper letters' ... of which there are a bunch!
What you need, Mr. Sailshaw is something that actually puts Peterson "on the plane", ie some direct unimpeachable proof he "was" DB Cooper, and you have yet to provide anything but your claims which do not meet the standard of evidence required. Don't you get this? Never mind the fact you also ignore which is Peterson's dna was collected and already tested! Various people at the FBI have said publicly that Peterson has been eliminated on that basis. You have dodged that question completely - for years at Dropzone and now here!
If what I have read here (and elsewhere) is accurate, Smith and others say Peterson has denied all of your claims. You have never addressed that here. So where does that leave this matter, which frankly I don't even give a crap about! In fact, you sir, have never addressed 'any' of the facts of the case with respect to Peterson. The physical and psychological profiles don't fit. When and how he planned and conducted the hijacking, how he escaped, where he escaped to, how he died and was resurrected if that was the case?. His notes, his dress, his language, his whole methodology, etc. For all we know you don't have the faintest idea how or even why (I have a grudge) Peterson conducted the hijacking so much as it was just him, without a shred of doubt based on what? "The system to beat the system" and particles on the tie? You claim Peterson was an expert in all phases of the hijacking so how do you explain the lost money? Does Tom Kaye or Geoff Gray think Peterson was Cooper? Who else beside you does? It's details that matter ...
All I can do is sit here and watch your social media bottle spinning, and your social media coin drops twirl.
Good luck with your quest ... :)
Hopefully Prospector will launch his new candidate soon and we can move on to something (and someone) NEW ?
Oh! Before I forget it, in all these years you have yet to explain how the Ingram money find and Peterson fit together? Have you thought about that and do you have an explanation? Something new?
;)
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Georger you say "Play it again, Sam. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz' :(
"There has been nothing new in the DB Cooper case in the last ____ 13,205.5 days. Still counting."
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 01:23:39 PM by georger »"
I say that says it all Georger, as you have nothing to say as usual. The rest of us can discuss the case with intelligent discourse in the mean time.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Perhaps the more legitimate question is: Did Peterson know DB Cooper, or did Cooper know him? That it seems to me, is a legitimate question and I cannot help but wonder if the FBI questioned Peterson along those lines. Of course Peterson has never said, or elaborated on his conversations with the FBI. If the posts that have been made on this topic are accurate, Peterson did finally submit to giving a dna sample and was ruled out. That does not mean that someone else familiar with Peterson, or perhaps a friend of his, was DB Cooper? Someone who traveled in the same circles as Peterson who had 'similar exposures and values', including access to the same materials including the Boeing recycling bins, or people working in 'hot' venues related to the real evidence in this case ?
Has Peterson ever had any tangible connection with hijackings or subversive activities of a material kind? That question seems perfectly legitimate to me. Has this ever been brought up before?
Based on Peterson's writings he seems to have had a 'flirtation' with the Cooper affair. The genesis of that has not been well-defined. Which came first - the FBI's interest in Peterson or Peterson's interest in the Cooper hijacking backed up by other political stances Peterson has taken during his life? Which is the chicken and which is the egg, or is this all conjecture Peterson himself fostered for some unknown reason?
There were thousands of people like Peterson. Peterson is not unique or is he in some way? Something got the FBI interested enough in Peterson to ask for a dna swab. That is more than casual interest. Sailshaw's interest is not without foundation. I believe Sailshaw when he says his tenant Peterson talked in political terms, the 'system to beat the system' - thousands of people were talking like that back in the day. Only a handful actually did anything about it, joined the SDS, left for Canada or Tibet or Mexico etc. Lots of people were avoiding Vietnam et cetera. Did Peterson know McCoy? Probably not. ??
:)
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An Open Letter to Sailshaw
When Georger takes his "happy pills," he is actually a nice fellow, and his commentary makes sense.
Sail, Georger is asking good questions, and I would imagine that your blood pressure probably rose a bit reading the past few posts. But know that although I applaud G's questioning, I do accept that finding answers to his postings may be beyond your resources, time, or energy, so I do not put any pressure on you to rebut his stuff or launch a massive effort to find the answers that he is demanding from you.
You and I are in much the same spot, as most of us here - we do what we can do regarding the DB Cooper case, and in the process of doing that we get excited, draw conclusions, or project speculations. I view your pronouncements of being in that category, and I commiserate with your frustration, especially at the FBI.
Ironically, the one person on this forum who could do more, reveal more, dig a little deeper into what is known-but-not-that-which-is-necessarily-public-information-at-this-time, is Georger himself. He has family and friends in the FBI and in Norjak. He had a personal relationship with Larry Carr. In fact, Carr wanted Georger to head the Citizen Sleuths, as I understand the story from G. Further, Tom Kaye became the head of the CS upon the recommendation of Georger.
Further, G has mentioned occasionally, such as at the DZ, that he has family and friends in the FBI. At the very least, his knowledge of Norjak is vast. He knows more about the money find than anyone else I have encountered.
So, it is plausible that Georger could leverage some of those contacts and provide some of the answers that he is challenging you to provide.
I agree with G that Petey doesn't look good for the skyjacking since his DNA didn't match whatever it is that the FBI tests these days for DBC. But recent discoveries about how the FBI tests DNA leave this issue open. Maybe not WIDE open, but, just because Petey's DNA swab didn't set off fireworks doesn't mean he isn't the skyjacker. We need to continue looking at Petey AND at the DNA issues swirling around the feds.
Perhaps Georger could tell us more about what the FBI is doing to nail down DB Cooper's DNA, and testing the stamps on the letters would be a good avenue to check, imo. Here is what information I would hope Georger could provide us:
1. Exactly when did the cigarette butts go missing? What was their status? Carr said they had been "processed." What exactly does that mean? Is anyone looking for them, now? If not, why not?
2. The tie has DNA from at least three different males. Who are they? Are they suspects, FBI agents, or immaterial bystanders whose spittle zigged when it should have zagged?
3. What is the problem with the epithelial cells that the FBI said they recovered from the tie. What the heck is a "partial" profile? Lt. Benson on Law and Order never has to deal with "partial" DNA samples, so why do we? Besides, labs can now get "touch" DNA. Yee-Gawds, that sound like pretty slick lab work - why does the FBI continue to struggle with this issue if the NYPD can find the right suspect within 42 minutes every week?
I know Georger has posted a ton o' stuff about alleles, chromosomal markers and all, but he presents it in such an overwhelming fashion as to intimidate ALL commentary, bludgeoning everyone into silence. G, in effect, is a cerebral bully, and a very effective one. When he goes Super-Scientific my eyes roll back in my head and my mind goes numb - and I have a degree in Biology! I should be able to keep with him, but I just tune out, which is probably what Georger desires most.
Perhaps one day he will be able to corral his inclinations to shut us up and actually join us in a true dialogue.
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Perhaps the more legitimate question is: Did Peterson know DB Cooper, or did Cooper know him? That it seems to me, is a legitimate question and I cannot help but wonder if the FBI questioned Peterson along those lines. Of course Peterson has never said, or elaborated on his conversations with the FBI. If the posts that have been made on this topic are accurate, Peterson did finally submit to giving a dna sample and was ruled out. That does not mean that someone else familiar with Peterson, or perhaps a friend of his, was DB Cooper? Someone who traveled in the same circles as Peterson who had 'similar exposures and values', including access to the same materials including the Boeing recycling bins, or people working in 'hot' venues related to the real evidence in this case ?
Has Peterson ever had any tangible connection with hijackings or subversive activities of a material kind? That question seems perfectly legitimate to me. Has this ever been brought up before?
Based on Peterson's writings he seems to have had a 'flirtation' with the Cooper affair. The genesis of that has not been well-defined. Which came first - the FBI's interest in Peterson or Peterson's interest in the Cooper hijacking backed up by other political stances Peterson has taken during his life?...
These are excellent questions, and finding answers has been elusive. But here's what I know.
Petey has clammed up or lied about all the leads that take us in these directions. Petey denies knowing Sail or ever living with him, and also denies knowing Cossey.
I had about a dozen email exchanges with Petey, but they were all conducted in an egg-shell environment. We never talked substantively about anything that might lead to Cooper, Nepal, the CIA, or whatever the heck he was doing for 30 years in Asia. So, I've got zip along those lines. But I got some leads to his friends and family, which I followed-up.
Petey's friends at Newsweek whom he knew in Vietnam, think I was a creep for asking investigatory questions about their friend. They were patently offended when I asked if Pete was a CIA agent or some kind of field observer.
Alden Peterson, Petey's brother, thinks it is absolutely crazy to think that his younger brother is DB Cooper.
Petey's teaching buddy, Russ Halot, who also wrote with him at the Eastside Journal, is astonished that Petey says he got all those teaching/writing jobs throughout Asia, because he only covered "fluff" pieces back in the day. He also told me that he was surprised to get a periodic postcard from Petey, postmarked from many of the exotic locales that Petey has described. Russ also acknowledged that he was surprised and somewhat concerned that the postcards were mailed in countries that had a lot of political turmoil, and were dangerous places.
Petey's neighbors at his assisted-living community were glad to see him go when he got kicked out. Some of them told me they were uneasy in his company. One told me that she thought Petey had murdered his wife in the Philippines, which reveals that Petey shared some personal stories with folks that were only neighbors. Others also told me that Petey was very intimidating and critical in the community's writing group. His actions sounded cruel.
Former Special Agent Mary Jean Fryar was both fascinated and suspicious of Petey. She conjured up an excuse to interrogate him a second time after the DNA swab. She knew something was fishy, but she couldn't get anything from him to insure a continued investigation.
Petey's own words about Cooper sound totally bogus to me. His analysis of Cooper's jump for Parachutist magazine sounds like a copycat script from the same guy who was writing Earl Cossey's statements back in the day when Coss was known as more than just a rigger. So, why is Petey so happy to continue to spin the bs about how nasty an NB-8 is?
So, based on all of this, I consider it plausible that Petey was part of an official FBI "brain trust" - along with Earl Cossey - to develop a spin job to discredit DB Cooper and lower his appeal in the public's mind as a super hero who could beat the system and thump Da Man.
I know that speculation about a Psy-Ops program to white-wash Norjak is unappealing to many, and downright disgusting to Georger and few others, but I do think that it would be inappropriate not to consider the possibility. After all, after Marla and LD Cooper and DB Cooper, the potentials are there to be recognized, I say.
So, I think it is clear that Petey knows a lot more about Norjak than he is willing to discuss. The big question is: he is hiding his knowledge of who the skyjacker is, or is he helping to deliver a cover-up into its fifth decade?
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Perhaps the more legitimate question is: Did Peterson know DB Cooper, or did Cooper know him? That it seems to me, is a legitimate question and I cannot help but wonder if the FBI questioned Peterson along those lines. Of course Peterson has never said, or elaborated on his conversations with the FBI. If the posts that have been made on this topic are accurate, Peterson did finally submit to giving a dna sample and was ruled out. That does not mean that someone else familiar with Peterson, or perhaps a friend of his, was DB Cooper? Someone who traveled in the same circles as Peterson who had 'similar exposures and values', including access to the same materials including the Boeing recycling bins, or people working in 'hot' venues related to the real evidence in this case ?
Has Peterson ever had any tangible connection with hijackings or subversive activities of a material kind? That question seems perfectly legitimate to me. Has this ever been brought up before?
Based on Peterson's writings he seems to have had a 'flirtation' with the Cooper affair. The genesis of that has not been well-defined. Which came first - the FBI's interest in Peterson or Peterson's interest in the Cooper hijacking backed up by other political stances Peterson has taken during his life?...
These are excellent questions, and finding answers has been elusive. But here's what I know.
Petey has clammed up or lied about all the leads that take us in these directions. Petey denies knowing Sail or ever living with him, and also denies knowing Cossey.
I had about a dozen email exchanges with Petey, but they were all conducted in an egg-shell environment. We never talked substantively about anything that might lead to Cooper, Nepal, the CIA, or whatever the heck he was doing for 30 years in Asia. So, I've got zip along those lines. But I got some leads to his friends and family, which I followed-up.
Petey's friends at Newsweek whom he knew in Vietnam, think I was a creep for asking investigatory questions about their friend. They were patently offended when I asked if Pete was a CIA agent or some kind of field observer.
Alden Peterson, Petey's brother, thinks it is absolutely crazy to think that his younger brother is DB Cooper.
Petey's teaching buddy, Russ Halot, who also wrote with him at the Eastside Journal, is astonished that Petey says he got all those teaching/writing jobs throughout Asia, because he only covered "fluff" pieces back in the day. He also told me that he was surprised to get a periodic postcard from Petey, postmarked from many of the exotic locales that Petey has described. Russ also acknowledged that he was surprised and somewhat concerned that the postcards were mailed in countries that had a lot of political turmoil, and were dangerous places.
Petey's neighbors at his assisted-living community were glad to see him go when he got kicked out. Some of them told me they were uneasy in his company. One told me that she thought Petey had murdered his wife in the Philippines, which reveals that Petey shared some personal stories with folks that were only neighbors. Others also told me that Petey was very intimidating and critical in the community's writing group. His actions sounded cruel.
Former Special Agent Mary Jean Fryar was both fascinated and suspicious of Petey. She conjured up an excuse to interrogate him a second time after the DNA swab. She knew something was fishy, but she couldn't get anything from him to insure a continued investigation.
Petey's own words about Cooper sound totally bogus to me. His analysis of Cooper's jump for Parachutist magazine sounds like a copycat script from the same guy who was writing Earl Cossey's statements back in the day when Coss was known as more than just a rigger. So, why is Petey so happy to continue to spin the bs about how nasty an NB-8 is?
So, based on all of this, I consider it plausible that Petey was part of an official FBI "brain trust" - along with Earl Cossey - to develop a spin job to discredit DB Cooper and lower his appeal in the public's mind as a super hero who could beat the system and thump Da Man.
I know that speculation about a Psy-Ops program to white-wash Norjak is unappealing to many, and downright disgusting to Georger and few others, but I do think that it would be inappropriate not to consider the possibility. After all, after Marla and LD Cooper and DB Cooper, the potentials are there to be recognized, I say.
So, I think it is clear that Petey knows a lot more about Norjak than he is willing to discuss. The big question is: he is hiding his knowledge of who the skyjacker is, or is he helping to deliver a cover-up into its fifth decade?
Good replies... you say:
So, I think it is clear that Petey knows a lot more about Norjak than he is willing to discuss.
I say:
So, I think it is clear that Petey knows a lot more about Petey than he is willing to discuss. ! The real Petey may not be nearly as interesting as the mythical Petey who apparently has some real accomplishments to his credit. . He may be a passive-aggressive personality who likes attention, actually deserves some attention for his records, then backs off in denial once he gets attention. Isn't that something like what Cossey was like?
Example: Either he rented from Sail or he didn't! I would believe Sail before I would believe Petey. And the hell of it is, maybe neither of them kept any actual proof or thought they would ever need to!
:)
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Yes, it is possible that Petey knows nothing of DB Cooper, Cossey, or anything to do with Norjak, and is simply a secretive recluse for unknown reasons.
Which brings us around again to the beginning: the FBI investigated Petey twice.
Why.
And was their dismissal of Mr. Peterson truly warranted?
As for Mr. Cossey... Georger says:
"...He may be a passive-aggressive personality who likes attention, actually deserves some attention for his records, then backs off in denial once he gets attention. Isn't that something like what Cossey was like?..."
Cossey passive-aggressive? Hmmm. I would never peg him as p-a. He was wildly deceptive and very manipulative, and lied to me repeatedly. Yet, he wasn't passive. He consistently refused to meet in person for an interview, but spoke freely on the phone at length. As for backing-off from his accomplishments, I don't know of any instances when Coss did so. If anything, he seemed to relish being in the spotlight.
If anyone around here is passive-aggressive, Georger, it is you. You consistently refuse to discuss matters at depth, frequently ignore questions directed at you, and you mock most people who peeve you. I would say that is a passive-aggressive disposition.
To wit: You ever gonna talk about your relationships with the FBI?
Of course, we still love you, or at least we'll keep trying to...
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Georger: Your pills have really got you off the track. Your type of thinking (along with Tom Kaye's leap to the false conclusion that having both types of Titanium meant it was not from Boeing as they only used alloy Titanium), is why the FBI has yet to solve the crime.
However, I have offered two things that the FBI could use to solve the crime:
1) The DNA under the stamps and envelope flaps of the four letters DB sent to the newspapers and compare them with the DNA they have from Sheridan Peterson. A match would show he was not in Nepal but at the scene of the crime in Portland Oregon.
2) My best and latest is finding the FLAW in his alibi that he was delivering one of his two children in Nepal as required by the Female Doctor and could not be two places at the same time. The FLAW is that neither of his two children were born in the year of Norjak 1971 as the son was born in 1970 and the daughter was born in 1972 (both in Nepal) per public records from persopo.com. Note Georger that is the proof he lied to the FBI which is a Federal Crime with jail time that could be offered to trade for the rest of the DB story and how he did it, for his freedom. I will give the FBI the rest of this year to finish up the details as they have this info in the hands of the Case Agent per Ayn Dietrich at the Seattle FBI Office.
Georger I suggest you check the birth dates of the two children in Nepal yourself at persopo.com!
Then ask yourself why would he lie to the FBI unless he is DB Cooper!
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Guys, lets ease up on the insults...
Sailshaw, can you provide the information from the link you provided? that's a pay site.
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I think Georger does a good job in trying to determine what interest the FBI has in Peterson. And, it's not zero. They might not consider him a suspect, but they didn't disqualify him out of hand like they've done to so many others.
We don't know what the FBI knows. And, often, what they say is just generic press statements. That's why we need to pay more attention to what they do, rather than what they say.
The FBI DID talk to Peterson. They did take a DNA sample.
Larry Carr wanted to compare DNA to someone in Utah, according to Grays' book. He doesn't say who, although I suspect Gossett or McCoy.
And, of course, they spent lots of time looking at LD Cooper. What piqued their interest on him as opposed to others? There has to be some reason. I also doubt Marla even knows the answer to that one.
But, other suspects they know they can disqualify immediately. With Carr involved on DZ, and his talking to Gray, we can be pretty sure that Duane and Kenny were not disqualified simply because they weren't considered closely enough.
The FBI knows more than we do, that's for sure. I wish we could figure out what that is.
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The FBI knows more than we do, that's for sure. I wish we could figure out what that is.
Thus, it behooves those of us with relationships with the FBI to share those insights, ie: Jerry Thomas, Georger, Galen, Marla.
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Yes, it is possible that Petey knows nothing of DB Cooper, Cossey, or anything to do with Norjak, and is simply a secretive recluse for unknown reasons.
Which brings us around again to the beginning: the FBI investigated Petey twice.
Why.
And was their dismissal of Mr. Peterson truly warranted?
As for Mr. Cossey... Georger says:
"...He may be a passive-aggressive personality who likes attention, actually deserves some attention for his records, then backs off in denial once he gets attention. Isn't that something like what Cossey was like?..."
Cossey passive-aggressive? Hmmm. I would never peg him as p-a. He was wildly deceptive and very manipulative, and lied to me repeatedly. Yet, he wasn't passive. He consistently refused to meet in person for an interview, but spoke freely on the phone at length. As for backing-off from his accomplishments, I don't know of any instances when Coss did so. If anything, he seemed to relish being in the spotlight.
If anyone around here is passive-aggressive, Georger, it is you. You consistently refuse to discuss matters at depth, frequently ignore questions directed at you, and you mock most people who peeve you. I would say that is a passive-aggressive disposition.
To wit: You ever gonna talk about your relationships with the FBI?
Of course, we still love you, or at least we'll keep trying to...
First Bruce, I dont think you know what passive-aggressive is and how it works, or you are applying the term incorrectly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior
Just as the word says, it has two poles. A passive phase and an aggressive phase. Behavior cycles back & forth between those two poles. First usually comes the aggressive phase where people take overt steps to get attention. That is followed by attempts to then wave off the very attention that was originally sought. You sometimes see this behavior in dating activity. At the core of the behavior is a 'failure' on the part of the instigator to connect the dots and process basic cause & effect logic. It's like a child who continually steps out in front of traffic without any consideration of what the effect may be (to others and to the individual themselves). Then when something does happen the instigator denies any responsibility in the whole affair and will go to great lengths to deny and get out of any responsibility.
A passive-aggressive person has a poorly defined sense of social limits. The causes of this condition can run the gamut. In older people it can be due to senility, an actual medical condition. In younger people that can be due to a simple lack of experience. Passive-aggressive people commonly infringe on other people's rights.
I think most people understand and have a feeling for what passive-aggressive behavior is; just as most people know what appropriate vs. inappropriate behavior is. The ancient Common Law is based on the distinction.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive-aggressive_behavior
I see Peterson and Cossey as alike in this matter. Both were skilled people who actually sought attention and even claimed importance, but demurred resorting to ' sullenness, stubbornness, and negative expressions, and even trickery and hostility' in response to getting the attention they wanted in the first place. Both appear to have had "secret lives" in addition to their normal social lives and identities. You can see there is a disconnect in the basic logics driving their lives. Both participated in dangerous life-threatening activities during their lives coupled with a denial of those same activities. I think it was a fundamental part of their identities which as most people know can have negative consequences, sooner or later.
So far as I understand the syndrome, passive-aggressive personalities may have a rich fantasy life. At the core of this syndrome may be profound feelings of loneliness, emptiness, feelings of inferiority and inadequacy on the part of the individual. Passive-aggressive activity could be an attempt to compensate (or fill the void) for such feelings thus elevating the person's self importance, in their own minds.
One example could be a person who continually asks another person in an open forum 'what's your special relationship to the FBI' as if there is one ... when in fact there is none.
All views I give are mine and mine alone.
:-*
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The FBI knows more than we do, that's for sure. I wish we could figure out what that is.
Thus, it behooves those of us with relationships with the FBI to share those insights, ie: Jerry Thomas, Georger, Galen, Marla.
One might even include you on your own list! Hasn't inclusion in this club been one of your primary desires/goals? ;)
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I would love to join the club. So far, I've spoken once to Larry Carr, exchanged one email with Curtis Eng about my cyber security issues in 2012-2013, and I spoke with Himms for about 20 minutes when I dropped in uninvited. I also spoke on the phone, briefly with both John Detlor and Russ Calame - and that's its for my relationship with FBI agents closely involved with Norjak.
As I ventured further from the inner sanctum, I've had more success - Mary Jane Fryer and George Grotz concerning Petey, and Gary Tallis down in Portland during the 2011 Symposium.
But that's it. It's a pretty skinny list, imo.
Maybe you could introduce me to a few of your friends? Ya know, put in a good word?
Just askin'.
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Shutter: You say "Sailshaw, can you provide the information from the link you provided? that's a pay site."
I say: Yes, persopo.com sent back the following answer as to what the public record birthdays for Sheridan two children, born in Nepal, as follows:
The son Sheridan Ramon Peterson was born Sept. 12, 1970 and the daughter Ginger Lucena Peterson was born October 1972. Please remember Norjak was November 24, 1971 which shows that Sheridan Peterson's alibi to the FBI was a lie and is a Federal crime with jail time. The FBI could trade jail time for the "rest of the story" from Sheridan and the case could finally be closed.
Yes, persopo.com is a pay site
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Shutter: You say "Sailshaw, can you provide the information from the link you provided? that's a pay site."
I say: Yes, persopo.com sent back the following answer as to what the public record birthdays for Sheridan two children, born in Nepal, as follows:
The son Sheridan Ramon Peterson was born Sept. 12, 1970 and the daughter Ginger Lucena Peterson was born October 1972. Please remember Norjak was November 24, 1971 which shows that Sheridan Peterson's alibi to the FBI was a lie and is a Federal crime with jail time. The FBI could trade jail time for the "rest of the story" from Sheridan and the case could finally be closed.
Yes, persopo.com is a pay site
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Anything showing where the kids were born?
It would be highly unlikely the FBI would do anything about someone lying to them. that happens all the time in LE.
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Shutter: You say "Sailshaw, can you provide the information from the link you provided? that's a pay site."
I say: Yes, persopo.com sent back the following answer as to what the public record birthdays for Sheridan two children, born in Nepal, as follows:
The son Sheridan Ramon Peterson was born Sept. 12, 1970 and the daughter Ginger Lucena Peterson was born October 1972. Please remember Norjak was November 24, 1971 which shows that Sheridan Peterson's alibi to the FBI was a lie and is a Federal crime with jail time. The FBI could trade jail time for the "rest of the story" from Sheridan and the case could finally be closed.
Yes, persopo.com is a pay site
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Anything showing where the kids were born?
It would be highly unlikely the FBI would do anything about someone lying to them. that happens all the time in LE.
In his previous post he says "both in Nepal".
[The FLAW is that neither of his two children were born in the year of Norjak 1971 as the son was born in 1970 and the daughter was born in 1972 (both in Nepal) per public records from persopo.com.]
So Peterson may have been in Nepal from 1970 through 72 ? His Visa might document his travels ?
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The FBI obviously didn't trust Sheridan's Nepal alibi and went back for DNA. Sheridan's DNA allegedly did not match the tie DNA hence the FBI ruled out Sheridan.
Unless you can convince the FBI that the tie DNA is not Cooper's you wont have any luck getting them fired up about a lie told about childbirth dates. Sure, lying to the FBI is a crime, but they won't pursue it.
Sail and I are interested in WHY Sheridan might lie, but the FBI couldn't care less. DNA rules their world. They are quite certain that they have a partial sample of DBC's DNA extracted from the tie.
377
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The FBI obviously didn't trust Sheridan's Nepal alibi and went back for DNA. Sheridan's DNA allegedly did not match the tie DNA hence the FBI ruled out Sheridan.
Unless you can convince the FBI that the tie DNA is not Cooper's you wont have any luck getting them fired up about a lie told about childbirth dates. Sure, lying to the FBI is a crime, but they won't pursue it.
Sail and I are interested in WHY Sheridan might lie, but the FBI couldn't care less. DNA rules their world. They are quite certain that they have a partial sample of DBC's DNA extracted from the tie.
377
Several things: Even Sail says the children were born in Nepal; one in '70, one in 72'. Petey could have been in Nepal the whole time. He may not remember the exact dates of when his kids were born. I sometimes forget when my children were born and I sure can;t keep track of all the grandkids - the women in the family fill that role! Petey may have meant 'I was in Nepal when my kids were born and I attended their births ... so I wasnt even "in" the USA, as a generic statement. His passport records would show his coming and going, in any event. The FBI has access to those records and others that reflect people's travel. So I am not convinced Petey lied. Sail wants him to have lied but Im not sure he did.
We know that Petey communicated with other people during this period. The FBI may have interviewed people to get an idea where Petey was, when.
The FBI would go for dna, in any event, whether they think someone lied or not. The FBI must have some faith in their sample(s). We know there are at least three runs. Probably more. They say they have a partial but we don't know what the nature of that partial is. Or partials. A partial that can "exclude" people usually hovers around 7 common loci identified after three or more runs. If someone tests out at that level that can mean a fairly strong result one can have faith in. Repeats in testing can strengthen the conviction. And that could mean a person does not match on at least three loci, assuming a 7 loci partial out of thirteen using the CODIS-13 loci system. That would be more than enough to exclude somebody and have strong faith in the result.
Would you allow your client to submit a sample if there was any chance he was DBC? Hell no you wouldn't! But Petey cooperated. When push comes to shove Petey always cooperates with The Man. :)
Of course if the tie sample is not DBC then the chances of Petey being "that guy" is zero! :) :) :)
I think the testing of the tie is a whole "book' in itself and I find that very interesting. If the FBI ever finds the cigarette butts then the DBC story could start anew, all over again. Our role in this matter can only be pure speculation! :)
Genetic tests are based on very large population studies. Genetic tests use very* large numbers. When someone is "excluded" based on multiple tests, that means they failed to match by a very large statistical probability approaching your chance of winning the $500 billion dollar lottery! This process started with a statistical assessment of the chance that the sample itself was from the hijacker and not someone else. The FBI standard is that these assessments have to be defensible in Court. It is the same standard being used today to eliminate people who have been falsely accused who then must be released from prison.
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G wrote: "Would you allow your client to submit a sample if there was any chance he was DBC? Hell no you wouldn't! But Petey cooperated. When push comes to shove Petey always cooperates with The Man. :) "
Peterson doesn't always cooperate with the MAN. But put a good looking woman in front of him and he throws caution to the wind.
I still think the FBI may have the cig butts and a DBC DNA sample. I would not rule that possibility out.
Evidence in major unsolved federal criminal cases doesn't normally get "lost". I never had the good fortune of the FBI losing evidence in cases I defended.
Look at how long they kept evidence in the 1975 SLA Sacramento bank robbery murder case. Charges were filed over a quarter century later in 2002 and they obtained convictions. No evidence was "lost".
None of these examples prove that they have the cig butts, but it would be very unusual for the FBI to have discarded or lost evidence in an unsolved major felony case with no statute of limitations issues barring subsequent prosecution.
377
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G wrote: "Would you allow your client to submit a sample if there was any chance he was DBC? Hell no you wouldn't! But Petey cooperated. When push comes to shove Petey always cooperates with The Man. :) "
Peterson doesn't always cooperate with the MAN. But put a good looking woman in front of him and he throws caution to the wind.
I still think the FBI may have the cig butts and a DBC DNA sample. I would not rule that possibility out.
Evidence in major unsolved federal criminal cases doesn't normally get "lost". I never had the good fortune of the FBI losing evidence in cases I defended.
Look at how long they kept evidence in the 1975 SLA Sacramento bank robbery murder case. Charges were filed over a quarter century later in 2002 and they obtained convictions. No evidence was "lost".
None of these examples prove that they have the cig butts, but it would be very unusual for the FBI to have discarded or lost evidence in an unsolved major felony case with no statute of limitations issues barring subsequent prosecution.
377
I know of no instance where Larry said the butts were "lost". It was Jo Weber and others who made that claim. :)
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G wrote: "Would you allow your client to submit a sample if there was any chance he was DBC? Hell no you wouldn't! But Petey cooperated. When push comes to shove Petey always cooperates with The Man. :) "
Peterson doesn't always cooperate with the MAN. But put a good looking woman in front of him and he throws caution to the wind.
I still think the FBI may have the cig butts and a DBC DNA sample. I would not rule that possibility out.
Evidence in major unsolved federal criminal cases doesn't normally get "lost". I never had the good fortune of the FBI losing evidence in cases I defended.
Look at how long they kept evidence in the 1975 SLA Sacramento bank robbery murder case. Charges were filed over a quarter century later in 2002 and they obtained convictions. No evidence was "lost".
None of these examples prove that they have the cig butts, but it would be very unusual for the FBI to have discarded or lost evidence in an unsolved major felony case with no statute of limitations issues barring subsequent prosecution.
377
I know of no instance where Larry said the butts were "lost". It was Jo Weber and others who made that claim. :)
Here is what CKret posted at the DZ regarding the cigarette butts: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3035835#3035835
Ckret
Dec 4, 2007, 12:42 PM
Post #668 of 1694 (3615 views)
Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Is Cooper reading this post [In reply to]
Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.
The DNA is male, the lab report stated the sample came from a combination of male doners.
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It would be highly unlikely the FBI would do anything about someone lying to them. that happens all the time in LE.
Prosecuting people for lying to the cops also establishes an uncomfortable precedent for law enforcement since they prefer being able to lie with impunity.
One of the conundrums facing the FBI in the wake of Congressional revelations about their malfeasance in the National Crime Lab, according to whistleblower Dr. Fred Whitehurst, is who will review the evidence and trial testimony of the FBI agents? Whitehurst says that over 20,000 federal felony convictions may be overturned by criminal actions by FBI agents on the witness stands or in the crime lab, so this issue is not small potatoes.
Precedent says the prosecutors involved in the case would be the logical personages, but they are the ones who made the wrongful convictions in the first place. It's a sticky wicket.
As for Norjak, consider this: Suppose Sheridan Peterson is DB Cooper. How does that color our view of the actions of the FBI? If they don't care about Nepal, is that because they don't want to solve the DB Cooper case?
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G wrote: "Would you allow your client to submit a sample if there was any chance he was DBC? Hell no you wouldn't! But Petey cooperated. When push comes to shove Petey always cooperates with The Man. :) "
Peterson doesn't always cooperate with the MAN. But put a good looking woman in front of him and he throws caution to the wind.
I still think the FBI may have the cig butts and a DBC DNA sample. I would not rule that possibility out.
Evidence in major unsolved federal criminal cases doesn't normally get "lost". I never had the good fortune of the FBI losing evidence in cases I defended.
Look at how long they kept evidence in the 1975 SLA Sacramento bank robbery murder case. Charges were filed over a quarter century later in 2002 and they obtained convictions. No evidence was "lost".
None of these examples prove that they have the cig butts, but it would be very unusual for the FBI to have discarded or lost evidence in an unsolved major felony case with no statute of limitations issues barring subsequent prosecution.
377
I know of no instance where Larry said the butts were "lost". It was Jo Weber and others who made that claim. :)
Here is what CKret posted at the DZ regarding the cigarette butts: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3035835#3035835
Ckret
Dec 4, 2007, 12:42 PM
Post #668 of 1694 (3615 views)
Re: [SafecrackingPLF] Is Cooper reading this post [In reply to]
Still looking for the cigarettes, after they were processed in the lab they were sent back to the field. So they are somewhere between Washington DC and Seattle or disposed of. Every spot on the plane possibly touched by Cooper was processed for prints. The seats he was sitting in were actually removed and sent to DC.
The DNA is male, the lab report stated the sample came from a combination of male doners.
So I guess I am wrong and Weber is right: the butts are disposed of and the dna is worthless. :)
Maybe get Jo Weber back to solve the case! :o A guy pulls off a hijacking and there is no hard evidence at all - he was never on the plane! That has to be a first!
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The DNA doesn't mean anything to people like Weber, or Blevins. they will just say it's not Cooper's once it fails for them.
I doubt they have been hiding the butts from the public. it would benefit them more by stating they have his DNA for sure to help weed out the phonies. Blevins is trying this angle, but rest assure if they do test it, and it fails. he will start claiming the DNA is not Cooper's. it's probably close to a year now they have had his new PDF, and it got him nowhere.
Wonder where Mikej is ;D
Hey Robert, where did Mikej go? the guy seemed to be interested in the case, but he hasn't shown up here? funny how he disappeared once we found out it was really you (laughs)
If it's not you, congratulations on running another poster off your forum. that makes 5. you will never understand why I know it was 5 members. ;D ;D
closing your forum like a light switch, and DEMANDING people identify themselves is not the way to run a forum! Is the home office based in China? they would be proud of your censorship (wink) pretty sad you close it just to get people to join...
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Someone mentioned a while back that Cooper made statements about the chutes, as in the missing D-rings. I haven't been able to find any supporting evidence of this, anyone?
He did mention the the bag...
Cooper made an inspection of the chutes when Tina was present. As well as the money and the bag the money came in. He made his concerns clear to Tina about the money bag.
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Someone mentioned a while back that Cooper made statements about the chutes, as in the missing D-rings. I haven't been able to find any supporting evidence of this, anyone?
He did mention the the bag...
Cooper made an inspection of the chutes when Tina was present. As well as the money and the bag the money came in. He made his concerns clear to Tina about the money bag.
I went back to the DZ and found conversation about the D Rings and the money bag. Ckret made a statement about the D Rings and others questioned him about it.
The conversation starts at this post and continues for the next 3 pages.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3050538#3050538
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Someone mentioned a while back that Cooper made statements about the chutes, as in the missing D-rings. I haven't been able to find any supporting evidence of this, anyone?
He did mention the the bag...
Cooper made an inspection of the chutes when Tina was present. As well as the money and the bag the money came in. He made his concerns clear to Tina about the money bag.
I went back to the DZ and found conversation about the D Rings and the money bag. Ckret made a statement about the D Rings and others questioned him about it.
The conversation starts at this post and continues for the next 3 pages.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3050538#3050538
I don't think he noticed the D-Rings missing...
Reason dictates that if he new the reserve was a dummy he would have said something about that as well.
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This is the complete post...
Cooper made an inspection of the chutes when Tina was present. As well as the money and the bag the money came in. He made his concerns clear to Tina about the money bag. He checked the money and made statements about that. He stated several times, "no funny stuff," providing nonfunctioning equipment would be funy stuff. Reason dictates that if he new the reserve was a dummy he would have said something about that as well.
I doubt that Cooper would have been able to gain any information about the wind conditions by throwing a chute off the air stairs. It was dark, the chute would have instantly disappeared from his sight the moment he let go of it.
Of course almost anything is possible, but the evidence points to him jumping with it, not that he did, it just points in that direction.
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He checked the money and made statements about that. He stated several times, "no funny stuff,
It appears his concerns for the money over ruled safety, or the lack of noticing "funny stuff"
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"I doubt that Cooper would have been able to gain any information about the wind conditions by throwing a chute off the air stairs. It was dark, the chute would have instantly disappeared from his sight the moment he let go of it."
FOR SURE.
377
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The DNA doesn't mean anything to people like Weber, or Blevins. they will just say it's not Cooper's once it fails for them.
I doubt they have been hiding the butts from the public. it would benefit them more by stating they have his DNA for sure to help weed out the phonies. Blevins is trying this angle, but rest assure if they do test it, and it fails. he will start claiming the DNA is not Cooper's. it's probably close to a year now they have had his new PDF, and it got him nowhere.
Wonder where Mikej is ;D
Hey Robert, where did Mikej go? the guy seemed to be interested in the case, but he hasn't shown up here? funny how he disappeared once we found out it was really you (laughs)
If it's not you, congratulations on running another poster off your forum. that makes 5. you will never understand why I know it was 5 members. ;D ;D
closing your forum like a light switch, and DEMANDING people identify themselves is not the way to run a forum! Is the home office based in China? they would be proud of your censorship (wink) pretty sad you close it just to get people to join...
I think the Mikej alter ego has been retired. There's another new poster there, Kristin. Probably another Blevins alter ego. Doesn't matter though, the Kenny C story is dead. Over. Finished.
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Two PDF's in the last couple years, and nothing came of either ;D ;D ;D
I thought we would get the best Cooper evidence since Marla ;D ;D ;D
It could be a start of a new book..."A View To A Bomb" ;D ;D ;D ;
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Two PDF's in the last couple years, and nothing came of either ;D ;D ;D
I thought we would get the best Cooper evidence since Marla ;D ;D ;D
It could be a start of a new book..."A View To A Bomb" ;D ;D ;D ;
From American Super Hero to common milker-of-somebody-elses'-cash-cows! Downfall 101.
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A question about the passengers
I've got a question about the passengers and I was hoping someone / anyone could help me figure out what is going on.
Were there two guys named Cooper aboard Flight 305? I see on the flight manifest that there was a Michael Cooper listed, but not a Dan Cooper. Hence, I always assumed that this was a typo, and that Michael was actually Dan.
But now Carey Scott, the Hollywood guy, is telling me that he interviewed Michael, and that this Cooper is claiming to be a legitimate passenger from Flight 305.
Dona Elliott also told me that she had spoken with Michael, and that he had come to the Ariel celebrations. Since Dona told me plenty of hair-brained stuff, I figured that was just one of her odd, crazy-ish, pieces of Cooper stuff.
Now, I'm trying to figure out what is going on. Here's what I wrote to Carey, today:
"I'd love to hear more about your conversation with Michael Cooper, the so-called passenger aboard Flight 305.
I've often wondered about his name being reported in the Seattle Times' list. Was it really on the on the flight manifest? I always assumed that it was a kind of typo, since I've never seen a copy of the manifest that clearly states that Dan Cooper, or D. Cooper, or Cooper, D. was a passenger.
So if Michael was a legitimate passenger, then there were two Coopers on-board Flight 305? How quirky is that? Michael and Dan - go figure.
Or is Michael a wannabee, tagging along the fame and glory train through some kind of oddity record-keeping glitch?
Bruce
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Passenger List
Here's my latest compilation:
Revised, updated, 4. 14. 16:
Name: Referenced: Source:
1. Almstad, Jack Seattle Times, 2011 Symposium, NWO manifest
2. Andvik, Arnold “Andy” [confirmed: Karen Truitt, 1/4] ST, Symposium, NWO
3. Clouse, Ray, D. ST, Symposium, NWO
4. Connors, Helen, Mrs. ST, Symposium, NWO
5. Connelly, La Vonne ST, Symposium
6. Cooper, Dan [added by BAS, because of “Cooper, D”] Not on ST, Sym, NWO
7. Cooper, Michael ST, Symposium, NWO
8. Cummings, Lynn ST, Symposium, NWO
9. Cummings, Mrs. ST, Symposium, NWO
10. Cummings, Robert ST, Symposium, NWO
11. Donahoe, Patrick, (R.P.) [Karen, 2/4] ST, Symposium, NWO
12. Feingold, Larry, prosecutor [GG] ST, Symposium, NWO
13. Gregory, Robert, B. [GG, Sluggo] ST, Symposium, NWO
14. House, Nancy, [GG, seat 15, Sluggo] ST, Symposium, NWO
15. Jensen, W.P. ST, Symposium, NWO
16. Keats, William ST, Symposium, NWO
17. Kloepfer, Mrs. ST, Symposium, not on NWO
18. Kloepfer, Floyd [GG, p. 31, inconclusive] NWO, not on ST list
19. Kurata, George [GG, steel importer from Japan] ST, Symposium, NWO
20. Labissoniere, George [GG, Sluggo, attorney] ST, Symposium, NWO
21. MacPherson, Bill [Richard Tosaw, book] ST, Symposium, NWO
22. MacPherson, Scott ST, Symposium, NWO
23. MacPherson, S. “son” ST, Symposium, NWO
24. McDonald, Cliff, A. (C.A.) [GG, real estate sales] ST, Symposium, NWO
25. Menendez, A [GG] ST, Symposium, NWO
26. Michelson, Dennis ST, Symposium, NWO
27. Minsch, Patrick, [GG, heavy equip operator] ST, Symposium, NWO
27. Mitchell, “Bill,” William [R. Tosaw] ST, Symposium, NWO
28. Murphey, W. J. ST, Symposium, NWO
29. Pollart, Les [GG] ST, Symposium, NWO
30. Rice, Daniel ST, Symposium, NWO
31. Simmons, Barbara, Mrs. [GG] ST, Symposium, NWO
32. Simmons, Richard, J. [GG] ST, Symposium, NWO
33. Street, Charles “Charlie” [Karen, 3/4] ST, Symposium, NWO
34. Truitt, Allen B [Karen, 4/4] ST, Symposium, NWO
35. Weitzel, Mr. ST, Symposium, NWO
36. Wornstaff, J. R. ST, Symposium, NWO
37. Zrim Spreckel, Cord Harms [GG, print shop owner] ST, Symposium, NWO
Note: NWO manifest spells the MacPherson family name as “McPherson.”
Note: NWO manifest spells WJ Murphy as “Murphey”
Note: GG spells Georger Kurata's name different than NWO, which lists this passenger as Georger Kurota, with an “o.”
Summation:
1. 37 passengers listed, with Dan Cooper included.
2. Michael Cooper on all lists. Hence, there must have been two Coopers flying on Flight 305
3. Confusion exists whether Mr. and Mrs. Kloepfer were flying together, or just one of them. “Mr.” is on NWO only. “Mrs.” is on STonly.
4. Three MacPherson's are listed, including a “Scott MacPherson” and a “S. MacPherson (son)” on all lists.
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Been smiling all day realizing that the First FBI Goof in Norjak was confusing their two Coopers, even after they had talked to one of them.
I love bureaucracy. Da bigger da better. And people wonder where I get my stories? You can't make this stuff up.
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Passenger Question:
Where was First Class on Flight 305? First three rows? Two seats port and starboard?
The McPhersons were sitting in First Class, according to Tosaw. Bill McPherson, Sr, was the father and accompanied by his brother and son. Hence, three McPhersons. Also, NWO and the Seattle Times misspell their name. According to their business' website, the name is spelled in the English manner, not Scottish. Hence, McPherson.
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Passenger Question:
Where was First Class on Flight 305? First three rows? Two seats port and starboard?
The McPhersons were sitting in First Class, according to Tosaw. Bill McPherson, Sr, was the father and accompanied by his brother and son. Hence, three McPhersons. Also, NWO and the Seattle Times misspell their name. According to their business' website, the name is spelled in the English manner, not Scottish. Hence, McPherson.
First class was forward of the curtain that Tina closed (as she got her last glimpse of Cooper) as she headed to the cockpit at Cooper's direction following the take off from Seattle enroute to Reno.
As far as the number of first class seats per row, it was probably two on each side of the aisle. But the number of rows of first class seats on the aircraft may require some number crunching.
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http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/04/22/humvees-plummet-to-the-ground-in-parachute-drop-fiasco.html
Cant blame Cossey for this rigging fiasco. ;)
377
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http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/04/22/humvees-plummet-to-the-ground-in-parachute-drop-fiasco.html
Cant blame Cossey for this rigging fiasco. ;)
377
Those Humvees were from different aircraft so there is a systematic error involved here. Assuming no one did it deliberately.
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Passenger Question:
Where was First Class on Flight 305? First three rows? Two seats port and starboard?
The McPhersons were sitting in First Class, according to Tosaw. Bill McPherson, Sr, was the father and accompanied by his brother and son. Hence, three McPhersons. Also, NWO and the Seattle Times misspell their name. According to their business' website, the name is spelled in the English manner, not Scottish. Hence, McPherson.
First class was forward of the curtain that Tina closed (as she got her last glimpse of Cooper) as she headed to the cockpit at Cooper's direction following the take off from Seattle enroute to Reno.
As far as the number of first class seats per row, it was probably two on each side of the aisle. But the number of rows of first class seats on the aircraft may require some number crunching.
A number of seating charts were presented at DZ - none ever seemed to be "the right one" ? Here is one of those:
I think first class would be everything front of the closets designated 'C' - The curtain would have been just rear of the closets ? I base this on prior discussion at DZ and the chart attached. 106 passengers: 16 first class 2 seats abreast: 90 passengers tourist, 3 abreast at 33" each back of first class: just as this chart says ... ?
"Flight 305 was a Boeing 727-51", to quote Sluggo ?
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Thanks, G, and Sluggo.
What I'm getting here is that First Class was the first four rows, with two seats apiece on each side of the aisle. That make for sixteen seats total in First Class.
But, how were the rows numbered? Does the numbering system start in First Class, with Rows 1, 2, 3, and 4? Then continuing in "Tourist" as 5, 6, 7, etc.?
If so, then the Tourist section is numbered 5 through, what? There are some problems in the diagram on the pictured 727-100.
I count 17 rows in "tourist" on the port side of the aircraft, which makes for a total of 21 rows in the aircraft when added to the four rows in First Class. So, are the rows in Tourist numbered 5-21? If so, what happened to Row 18 being the last row? Where was D Cooper sitting?
Note: the rows on the starboard side are off-set by the galley.
This also makes Larry Finegold's statements more troubling. Since Larry was in Row 6, which is by the galley AND he had a conversation with G-Man Johnny, that means the FBI agent had entered into the aircraft about a third of the way, since the forward entry door was in front of Row 1 and the "wind screen." Hence, this was not a minor incursion.
Plus, I don't see any jump seats for the Fight Attendants, other than the two-seater in the forward section. Where was Florence sitting? I thought she was aft of D Cooper, sitting in a jump seat in the aft galley, as is typical in most planes these days - but there was no aft galley in the 727 as pictured, and the only galley was mid-ship.
Lastly, my understanding of the 727-51 designation meant that this plane was part of the Northwest Orient fleet, and was in fact a 727-100 series model.
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Thanks, G, and Sluggo.
What I'm getting here is that First Class was the first four rows, with two seats apiece on each side of the aisle. That make for sixteen seats total in First Class.
But, how were the rows numbered? Does the numbering system start in First Class, with Rows 1, 2, 3, and 4? Then continuing in "Tourist" as 5, 6, 7, etc.?
If so, then the Tourist section is numbered 5 through, what? There are some problems in the diagram on the pictured 727-100.
I count 17 rows in "tourist" on the port side of the aircraft, which makes for a total of 21 rows in the aircraft when added to the four rows in First Class. So, are the rows in Tourist numbered 5-21? If so, what happened to Row 18 being the last row? Where was D Cooper sitting?
Note: the rows on the starboard side are off-set by the galley.
This also makes Larry Finegold's statements more troubling. Since Larry was in Row 6, which is by the galley AND he had a conversation with G-Man Johnny, that means the FBI agent had entered into the aircraft about a third of the way, since the forward entry door was in front of Row 1 and the "wind screen." Hence, this was not a minor incursion.
Plus, I don't see any jump seats for the Fight Attendants, other than the two-seater in the forward section. Where was Florence sitting? I thought she was aft of D Cooper, sitting in a jump seat in the aft galley, as is typical in most planes these days - but there was no aft galley in the 727 as pictured, and the only galley was mid-ship.
I dont know. Sluggo did say 305 was a 727-51. Does that mean it was a model 727-100 or 100C, or something else? I dont know that this got resolved back at DZ? Maybe we can clear this all up now. Which seating arrangement applied? Th last row was row 18 so I guess it was 18A, 18B, 18C on the right side looking back front the front ... then 18D, 18E, 18F on the left side ?
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What was the difference in price btwn 1st and 2nd class on that day, or had the distinction been lifted for that "milk run' flight last of the day? I think you are right and there were 16 seats in first class, on that plane.
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Thanks, G, and Sluggo.
What I'm getting here is that First Class was the first four rows, with two seats apiece on each side of the aisle. That make for sixteen seats total in First Class.
But, how were the rows numbered? Does the numbering system start in First Class, with Rows 1, 2, 3, and 4? Then continuing in "Tourist" as 5, 6, 7, etc.?
If so, then the Tourist section is numbered 5 through, what? There are some problems in the diagram on the pictured 727-100.
I count 17 rows in "tourist" on the port side of the aircraft, which makes for a total of 21 rows in the aircraft when added to the four rows in First Class. So, are the rows in Tourist numbered 5-21? If so, what happened to Row 18 being the last row? Where was D Cooper sitting?
Note: the rows on the starboard side are off-set by the galley.
This also makes Larry Finegold's statements more troubling. Since Larry was in Row 6, which is by the galley AND he had a conversation with G-Man Johnny, that means the FBI agent had entered into the aircraft about a third of the way, since the forward entry door was in front of Row 1 and the "wind screen." Hence, this was not a minor incursion.
Plus, I don't see any jump seats for the Fight Attendants, other than the two-seater in the forward section. Where was Florence sitting? I thought she was aft of D Cooper, sitting in a jump seat in the aft galley, as is typical in most planes these days - but there was no aft galley in the 727 as pictured, and the only galley was mid-ship.
Bruce,
Relax. You don't have a problem since those diagrams shown above DO NOT represent the seat arrangement in the NWA 727-051 aircraft. Every airline selected its own arrangement for the seats, galleys, and heads.
As far as numbering the seats and rows, if the 727 aircraft had two classes (first class and tourist class) the first class section would be at the front end of the cabin (I know of no exceptions to this) and the tourist class would be at the rear end of the cabin.
The most forward row of seats in the cabin would be Row 1 and the seats in that row would be labeled 1A, 1B, 1C, and 1D from the left side of the cabin to the right side of the cabin. That is, seats 1A and 1B would be left of the aisle , when you are facing the cockpit, and seats 1C and 1D would be to the right of the aisle, when facing the cockpit.
The next row of seats would be labeled Row 2, and continuing aft, the numbering would be consecutive without any breaks in going from the first class section to the tourist section.
The last row of seats on NWA 305 was Row 18 which was in the tourist section and consisted of six seats, 18A, 18B, 18C, 18D, 18E, and 18F. Seats 18A, 18B, and 18C were on the left side of the aisle when facing forward and 18D, 18E, and 18F were on the right side of the aisle.
On the flight from Portland to Seattle, the student passenger apparently had taken possession of all three seats (18A, 18B, and 18C) on the left side of the aisle with his coat and books in two of those seats. Cooper was in seat 18E on the right side of the aisle and Tina apparently spent a lot of time in seat 18D on the aisle and adjacent to Cooper. Cooper had his brief case with the bomb in seat 18F.
Immediately behind Row 18, and on the left side of the cabin, was a galley and work station for the stewardess and it included the interphone that Tina and Flo used to relay messages to the flight crew in the cockpit.
Immediately behind Row 18, and on the right side of the cabin, was the head that Cooper spent most of his time hiding in while the plane was on the ground in Seattle.
The stewardess jump seats were typically mounted on the cabin bulkheads as space permitted. Those jump seats were spring equipped "flip up and down" kind of things rather than regular seats. Usually, one such jump seat was mounted on the forward cabin bulkhead (maybe between the aircraft boarding door and the door to the cockpit) and facing to the rear so that the stewardess could observe the passengers.
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Thanks, G, and Sluggo.
What I'm getting here is that First Class was the first four rows, with two seats apiece on each side of the aisle. That make for sixteen seats total in First Class.
But, how were the rows numbered? Does the numbering system start in First Class, with Rows 1, 2, 3, and 4? Then continuing in "Tourist" as 5, 6, 7, etc.?
If so, then the Tourist section is numbered 5 through, what? There are some problems in the diagram on the pictured 727-100.
I count 17 rows in "tourist" on the port side of the aircraft, which makes for a total of 21 rows in the aircraft when added to the four rows in First Class. So, are the rows in Tourist numbered 5-21? If so, what happened to Row 18 being the last row? Where was D Cooper sitting?
Note: the rows on the starboard side are off-set by the galley.
This also makes Larry Finegold's statements more troubling. Since Larry was in Row 6, which is by the galley AND he had a conversation with G-Man Johnny, that means the FBI agent had entered into the aircraft about a third of the way, since the forward entry door was in front of Row 1 and the "wind screen." Hence, this was not a minor incursion.
Plus, I don't see any jump seats for the Fight Attendants, other than the two-seater in the forward section. Where was Florence sitting? I thought she was aft of D Cooper, sitting in a jump seat in the aft galley, as is typical in most planes these days - but there was no aft galley in the 727 as pictured, and the only galley was mid-ship.
Lastly, my understanding of the 727-51 designation meant that this plane was part of the Northwest Orient fleet, and was in fact a 727-100 series model.
Bruce, The fellow who tried to board the aircraft to talk to Cooper was an FAA man who thought it would be a good idea to tell Cooper that he could find himself in a lot of trouble if he hijacked the aircraft. I suspect that Cooper already knew that. In any event, the individual was removed from the scene.
The -051 was specific to NWA but it was still not a 727-100 aircraft. If it had been an NWA 727-100 it probably would have had a -151 suffix.
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Thanks, G, and Sluggo.
What I'm getting here is that First Class was the first four rows, with two seats apiece on each side of the aisle. That make for sixteen seats total in First Class.
But, how were the rows numbered? Does the numbering system start in First Class, with Rows 1, 2, 3, and 4? Then continuing in "Tourist" as 5, 6, 7, etc.?
If so, then the Tourist section is numbered 5 through, what? There are some problems in the diagram on the pictured 727-100.
I count 17 rows in "tourist" on the port side of the aircraft, which makes for a total of 21 rows in the aircraft when added to the four rows in First Class. So, are the rows in Tourist numbered 5-21? If so, what happened to Row 18 being the last row? Where was D Cooper sitting?
Note: the rows on the starboard side are off-set by the galley.
This also makes Larry Finegold's statements more troubling. Since Larry was in Row 6, which is by the galley AND he had a conversation with G-Man Johnny, that means the FBI agent had entered into the aircraft about a third of the way, since the forward entry door was in front of Row 1 and the "wind screen." Hence, this was not a minor incursion.
Plus, I don't see any jump seats for the Fight Attendants, other than the two-seater in the forward section. Where was Florence sitting? I thought she was aft of D Cooper, sitting in a jump seat in the aft galley, as is typical in most planes these days - but there was no aft galley in the 727 as pictured, and the only galley was mid-ship.
Lastly, my understanding of the 727-51 designation meant that this plane was part of the Northwest Orient fleet, and was in fact a 727-100 series model.
Bruce, The fellow who tried to board the aircraft to talk to Cooper was an FAA man who thought it would be a good idea to tell Cooper that he could find himself in a lot of trouble if he hijacked the aircraft. I suspect that Cooper already knew that. In any event, the individual was removed from the scene.
The -051 was specific to NWA but it was still not a 727-100 aircraft. If it had been an NWA 727-100 it probably would have had a -151 suffix.
Thanks for posting and finally clearing up the large issue on the FBI COWBOY VS FAA FAA FAA ... MAN MAN MAN! Bruce doesnt believe anything I say. He wont search for himself. It is absolutely vital Bruce get this straight for his book.
So, here is the cigar of the airplane. PLEASE PLACE THE SEATS IN THE CORRECT CONFIGURATION. Lets get that issue settled too finally...
G. ;)
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Thanks, G, and Sluggo.
What I'm getting here is that First Class was the first four rows, with two seats apiece on each side of the aisle. That make for sixteen seats total in First Class.
But, how were the rows numbered? Does the numbering system start in First Class, with Rows 1, 2, 3, and 4? Then continuing in "Tourist" as 5, 6, 7, etc.?
If so, then the Tourist section is numbered 5 through, what? There are some problems in the diagram on the pictured 727-100.
I count 17 rows in "tourist" on the port side of the aircraft, which makes for a total of 21 rows in the aircraft when added to the four rows in First Class. So, are the rows in Tourist numbered 5-21? If so, what happened to Row 18 being the last row? Where was D Cooper sitting?
Note: the rows on the starboard side are off-set by the galley.
This also makes Larry Finegold's statements more troubling. Since Larry was in Row 6, which is by the galley AND he had a conversation with G-Man Johnny, that means the FBI agent had entered into the aircraft about a third of the way, since the forward entry door was in front of Row 1 and the "wind screen." Hence, this was not a minor incursion.
Plus, I don't see any jump seats for the Fight Attendants, other than the two-seater in the forward section. Where was Florence sitting? I thought she was aft of D Cooper, sitting in a jump seat in the aft galley, as is typical in most planes these days - but there was no aft galley in the 727 as pictured, and the only galley was mid-ship.
Lastly, my understanding of the 727-51 designation meant that this plane was part of the Northwest Orient fleet, and was in fact a 727-100 series model.
Bruce, The fellow who tried to board the aircraft to talk to Cooper was an FAA man who thought it would be a good idea to tell Cooper that he could find himself in a lot of trouble if he hijacked the aircraft. I suspect that Cooper already knew that. In any event, the individual was removed from the scene.
The -051 was specific to NWA but it was still not a 727-100 aircraft. If it had been an NWA 727-100 it probably would have had a -151 suffix.
Thanks for posting and finally clearing up the large issue on the FBI COWBOY VS FAA FAA FAA ... MAN MAN MAN!
Bruce doesnt believe anything I say.
So, here is the cigar of the airplane. PLEASE PLACE THE SEATS IN THE CORRECT CONFIGURATION. Lets get that issue settle too finally...
G. ;)
Bruce doesn't believe anything I say either but here is another try at explaining the seating configuration.
At the right side of the cabin diagram, you see the aft stairs. Then moving to the left, which is forward in the cabin, the head is indicated by the "L" and the galley by the "G".
Row 18 is the first row forward of the head and Cooper was seated in 18E which would be just forward of the letter L. Tina spent some time in the aisle seat 18D and Cooper had his brief case with the bomb in seat 18F.
Mitchell was apparently seated in 18B just forward of the letter G and had his books in the aisle seat 18C and his coat in the window seat 18A.
The seat rows count down moving forward (to the left) in this illustration. There is no information about additional galleys or heads in the cabin but my guess is that there was another head at the forward end of the cabin near the cockpit door. I doubt if there was a second galley on the aircraft.
The exact number of rows in the first class section (with four seats across) is not known. But there was a divider of some type between the first class section and the start of the tourist section (with six seats across). This divider included at least a curtain and probably a bulkhead of some type. There may have been a closet type of arrangement for the first class passengers at the very rear of the first class section. The unwashed passengers in the tourist section would have to put their coats in the overhead bins or on an empty seat (as Mitchell apparently did).
But the first row of seats aft of the side entrance door near the cockpit would be the first row in the first class section and was Row 1. The row numbers then would count consecutively up until reaching the last row at the rear of seats at the rear of the cabin and that was Row 18.
If there were four rows of first class seats with four seats per row, then there would be 14 rows of tourist class seats with six seats per row. This would give the aircraft a capacity of exactly 100 passengers, plus a three person cabin crew, and plus a three person cockpit crew.
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Thanks, G, and Sluggo.
What I'm getting here is that First Class was the first four rows, with two seats apiece on each side of the aisle. That make for sixteen seats total in First Class.
But, how were the rows numbered? Does the numbering system start in First Class, with Rows 1, 2, 3, and 4? Then continuing in "Tourist" as 5, 6, 7, etc.?
If so, then the Tourist section is numbered 5 through, what? There are some problems in the diagram on the pictured 727-100.
I count 17 rows in "tourist" on the port side of the aircraft, which makes for a total of 21 rows in the aircraft when added to the four rows in First Class. So, are the rows in Tourist numbered 5-21? If so, what happened to Row 18 being the last row? Where was D Cooper sitting?
Note: the rows on the starboard side are off-set by the galley.
This also makes Larry Finegold's statements more troubling. Since Larry was in Row 6, which is by the galley AND he had a conversation with G-Man Johnny, that means the FBI agent had entered into the aircraft about a third of the way, since the forward entry door was in front of Row 1 and the "wind screen." Hence, this was not a minor incursion.
Plus, I don't see any jump seats for the Fight Attendants, other than the two-seater in the forward section. Where was Florence sitting? I thought she was aft of D Cooper, sitting in a jump seat in the aft galley, as is typical in most planes these days - but there was no aft galley in the 727 as pictured, and the only galley was mid-ship.
Lastly, my understanding of the 727-51 designation meant that this plane was part of the Northwest Orient fleet, and was in fact a 727-100 series model.
Bruce, The fellow who tried to board the aircraft to talk to Cooper was an FAA man who thought it would be a good idea to tell Cooper that he could find himself in a lot of trouble if he hijacked the aircraft. I suspect that Cooper already knew that. In any event, the individual was removed from the scene.
The -051 was specific to NWA but it was still not a 727-100 aircraft. If it had been an NWA 727-100 it probably would have had a -151 suffix.
Thanks for posting and finally clearing up the large issue on the FBI COWBOY VS FAA FAA FAA ... MAN MAN MAN!
Bruce doesnt believe anything I say.
So, here is the cigar of the airplane. PLEASE PLACE THE SEATS IN THE CORRECT CONFIGURATION. Lets get that issue settle too finally...
G. ;)
Bruce doesn't believe anything I say either but here is another try at explaining the seating configuration.
At the right side of the cabin diagram, you see the aft stairs. Then moving to the left, which is forward in the cabin, the head is indicated by the "L" and the galley by the "G".
Row 18 is the first row forward of the head and Cooper was seated in 18E which would be just forward of the letter L. Tina spent some time in the aisle seat 18D and Cooper had his brief case with the bomb in seat 18F.
Mitchell was apparently seated in 18B just forward of the letter G and had his books in the aisle seat 18C and his coat in the window seat 18A.
The seat rows count down moving forward (to the left) in this illustration. There is no information about additional galleys or heads in the cabin but my guess is that there was another head at the forward end of the cabin near the cockpit door. I doubt if there was a second galley on the aircraft.
The exact number of rows in the first class section (with four seats across) is not known. But there was a divider of some type between the first class section and the start of the tourist section (with six seats across). This divider included at least a curtain and probably a bulkhead of some type. There may have been a closet type of arrangement for the first class passengers at the very rear of the first class section. The unwashed passengers in the tourist section would have to put their coats in the overhead bins or on an empty seat (as Mitchell apparently did).
But the first row of seats aft of the side entrance door near the cockpit would be the first row in the first class section and was Row 1. The row numbers then would count consecutively up until reaching the last row at the rear of seats at the rear of the cabin and that was Row 18.
If there were four rows of first class seats with four seats per row, then there would be 14 rows of tourist class seats with six seats per row. This would give the aircraft a capacity of exactly 100 passengers, plus a three person cabin crew, and plus a three person cockpit crew.
I found it. Here is a 100 passenger Cooper seating chart that was published by the DailyPost in the UK some years ago. It's probably not correct. I got it off an internet search some years ago. I dont think this chart was ever posted to Dropzone, but I am sure others have seen this in the past because there was discussion at DZ about whether Cooper sat in the back or several rows forward of the back ... and this chart may have been the basis for the question at the time ? in any event, here is the DailyPost chart.
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Thanks, G, and Sluggo.
What I'm getting here is that First Class was the first four rows, with two seats apiece on each side of the aisle. That make for sixteen seats total in First Class.
But, how were the rows numbered? Does the numbering system start in First Class, with Rows 1, 2, 3, and 4? Then continuing in "Tourist" as 5, 6, 7, etc.?
If so, then the Tourist section is numbered 5 through, what? There are some problems in the diagram on the pictured 727-100.
I count 17 rows in "tourist" on the port side of the aircraft, which makes for a total of 21 rows in the aircraft when added to the four rows in First Class. So, are the rows in Tourist numbered 5-21? If so, what happened to Row 18 being the last row? Where was D Cooper sitting?
Note: the rows on the starboard side are off-set by the galley.
This also makes Larry Finegold's statements more troubling. Since Larry was in Row 6, which is by the galley AND he had a conversation with G-Man Johnny, that means the FBI agent had entered into the aircraft about a third of the way, since the forward entry door was in front of Row 1 and the "wind screen." Hence, this was not a minor incursion.
Plus, I don't see any jump seats for the Fight Attendants, other than the two-seater in the forward section. Where was Florence sitting? I thought she was aft of D Cooper, sitting in a jump seat in the aft galley, as is typical in most planes these days - but there was no aft galley in the 727 as pictured, and the only galley was mid-ship.
Lastly, my understanding of the 727-51 designation meant that this plane was part of the Northwest Orient fleet, and was in fact a 727-100 series model.
Bruce, The fellow who tried to board the aircraft to talk to Cooper was an FAA man who thought it would be a good idea to tell Cooper that he could find himself in a lot of trouble if he hijacked the aircraft. I suspect that Cooper already knew that. In any event, the individual was removed from the scene.
The -051 was specific to NWA but it was still not a 727-100 aircraft. If it had been an NWA 727-100 it probably would have had a -151 suffix.
Thanks for posting and finally clearing up the large issue on the FBI COWBOY VS FAA FAA FAA ... MAN MAN MAN!
Bruce doesnt believe anything I say.
So, here is the cigar of the airplane. PLEASE PLACE THE SEATS IN THE CORRECT CONFIGURATION. Lets get that issue settle too finally...
G. ;)
Bruce doesn't believe anything I say either but here is another try at explaining the seating configuration.
At the right side of the cabin diagram, you see the aft stairs. Then moving to the left, which is forward in the cabin, the head is indicated by the "L" and the galley by the "G".
Row 18 is the first row forward of the head and Cooper was seated in 18E which would be just forward of the letter L. Tina spent some time in the aisle seat 18D and Cooper had his brief case with the bomb in seat 18F.
Mitchell was apparently seated in 18B just forward of the letter G and had his books in the aisle seat 18C and his coat in the window seat 18A.
The seat rows count down moving forward (to the left) in this illustration. There is no information about additional galleys or heads in the cabin but my guess is that there was another head at the forward end of the cabin near the cockpit door. I doubt if there was a second galley on the aircraft.
The exact number of rows in the first class section (with four seats across) is not known. But there was a divider of some type between the first class section and the start of the tourist section (with six seats across). This divider included at least a curtain and probably a bulkhead of some type. There may have been a closet type of arrangement for the first class passengers at the very rear of the first class section. The unwashed passengers in the tourist section would have to put their coats in the overhead bins or on an empty seat (as Mitchell apparently did).
But the first row of seats aft of the side entrance door near the cockpit would be the first row in the first class section and was Row 1. The row numbers then would count consecutively up until reaching the last row at the rear of seats at the rear of the cabin and that was Row 18.
If there were four rows of first class seats with four seats per row, then there would be 14 rows of tourist class seats with six seats per row. This would give the aircraft a capacity of exactly 100 passengers, plus a three person cabin crew, and plus a three person cockpit crew.
Im playing catchup tonight - sorry. On another matter ...
Where would you consider the 'head waters of the Washougal' to be? Bruce and I discussed this to some extent over the weekend and I'd like your take on this ... at your convenience. For example, how far east of Amboy would you have to be to be in what could be called the 'headwaters' of the Washougal?
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Im playing catchup tonight - sorry. On another matter ...
Where would you consider the 'head waters of the Washougal' to be? Bruce and I discussed this to some extent over the weekend and I'd like your take on this ... at your convenience. For example, how far east of Amboy would you have to be to be in what could be called the 'headwaters' of the Washougal?
I used a National Geographic topographical software program for the state of Washington for this. I gave all my paper maps of the area to Meyer Louie in 2013 when we visited Tina Bar.
The Washougal River seems to start as a small stream in a wilderness area at Latitude: 45 deg, 47.552 minutes North, and Longitude: 122 deg, 08.586 minutes West.
Amboy is located at Latitude: 45 deg, 54.725 minutes North, and Longitude: 122 deg, 26.809 minutes West.
In the Portland area (and everywhere else, at least in theory) a minute along a lontitude line is equal to one nautical mile. But in the Portland area a minute along a latitude line is only about 0.6 nautical mile due to the converging of the longitude lines at the North Pole.
The above means that Amboy is about 7 nautical miles north and about 11 nautical miles west of the point where the Washougal River starts. Further, the Lewis River runs just south of Amboy. So in my opinion, anything from Amboy would eventually end up in the Lewis River rather than the Washoughal River.
Does this help?
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"... the large issue on the FBI COWBOY VS FAA FAA FAA ... MAN MAN MAN! Bruce doesnt believe anything I say. He wont search for himself. It is absolutely vital Bruce get this straight for his book.
So, here is the cigar of the airplane. PLEASE PLACE THE SEATS IN THE CORRECT CONFIGURATION. Lets get that issue settled too finally...
G. ;)
A couple things: first, a credible witness says they encountered an FBI agent who was known to them by name - that has to be considered and pursued, which I am doing.
Secondly, whether there was an FAA official also on board Flight 305 is another question, as is: what he was doing there and who authorized it?
Seriously, R99, if you were J Earl Milnes, the FBI agent in charge of the hijacking at Sea-Tac, would you allow an FAA employee to board the plane and risk provoking hostilities? I find that hard to believe, but if true, it would be a remarkable set of circumstances that adds much more flavor to the whole hijacking enchilada.
As for the seating configurations, I appreciate the many sketches that have been provided here, but none so far seem to have only 18 rows of seats. Am I missing something, or is this "cigar" really hard to nail down at this point.
Lastly, as for whether I "believe" you Robert 99 and Georger, it is more of a question of whether I accept your point of views or if the facts compel me to seek a broader interpretation. I believe the latter is the case.
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Im playing catchup tonight - sorry. On another matter ...
Where would you consider the 'head waters of the Washougal' to be? Bruce and I discussed this to some extent over the weekend and I'd like your take on this ... at your convenience. For example, how far east of Amboy would you have to be to be in what could be called the 'headwaters' of the Washougal?
I used a National Geographic topographical software program for the state of Washington for this. I gave all my paper maps of the area to Meyer Louie in 2013 when we visited Tina Bar.
The Washougal River seems to start as a small stream in a wilderness area at Latitude: 45 deg, 47.552 minutes North, and Longitude: 122 deg, 08.586 minutes West.
Amboy is located at Latitude: 45 deg, 54.725 minutes North, and Longitude: 122 deg, 26.809 minutes West.
In the Portland area (and everywhere else, at least in theory) a minute along a lontitude line is equal to one nautical mile. But in the Portland area a minute along a latitude line is only about 0.6 nautical mile due to the converging of the longitude lines at the North Pole.
The above means that Amboy is about 7 nautical miles north and about 11 nautical miles west of the point where the Washougal River starts. Further, the Lewis River runs just south of Amboy. So in my opinion, anything from Amboy would eventually end up in the Lewis River rather than the Washoughal River.
Does this help?
yes it does. Tnx.
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"... the large issue on the FBI COWBOY VS FAA FAA FAA ... MAN MAN MAN! Bruce doesnt believe anything I say. He wont search for himself. It is absolutely vital Bruce get this straight for his book.
So, here is the cigar of the airplane. PLEASE PLACE THE SEATS IN THE CORRECT CONFIGURATION. Lets get that issue settled too finally...
G. ;)
A couple things: first, a credible witness says they encountered an FBI agent who was known to them by name - that has to be considered and pursued, which I am doing.
Secondly, whether there was an FAA official also on board Flight 305 is another question, as is: what he was doing there and who authorized it?
Seriously, R99, if you were J Earl Milnes, the FBI agent in charge of the hijacking at Sea-Tac, would you allow an FAA employee to board the plane and risk provoking hostilities? I find that hard to believe, but if true, it would be a remarkable set of circumstances that adds much more flavor to the whole hijacking enchilada.
As for the seating configurations, I appreciate the many sketches that have been provided here, but none so far seem to have only 18 rows of seats. Am I missing something, or is this "cigar" really hard to nail down at this point.
Lastly, as for whether I "believe" you Robert 99 and Georger, it is more of a question of whether I accept your point of views or if the facts compel me to seek a broader interpretation. I believe the latter is the case.
Maybe Im dreaming this but isnt the FAA guy mentioned in the transcripts - I will go look when I gt the time.
Th reason no chart fits the seating pattern is because there is no such chart! :) I posted the DailyMail chart almost as a humorous gesture knowing it was vain attempt and not accurate - but these newspapers will post things like this (from across the Pond) almost like like they had been to Venus and Pluto and had lunch there, yesterday. As a measure of their authority/expertise.
In any event, bad charts have been published by 'authoritative sources' many times throughout.
I just thought that sooner or later somebody might come up with an accurate chart ... :) ;)
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"... the large issue on the FBI COWBOY VS FAA FAA FAA ... MAN MAN MAN! Bruce doesnt believe anything I say. He wont search for himself. It is absolutely vital Bruce get this straight for his book.
So, here is the cigar of the airplane. PLEASE PLACE THE SEATS IN THE CORRECT CONFIGURATION. Lets get that issue settled too finally...
G. ;)
A couple things: first, a credible witness says they encountered an FBI agent who was known to them by name - that has to be considered and pursued, which I am doing.
Secondly, whether there was an FAA official also on board Flight 305 is another question, as is: what he was doing there and who authorized it?
Seriously, R99, if you were J Earl Milnes, the FBI agent in charge of the hijacking at Sea-Tac, would you allow an FAA employee to board the plane and risk provoking hostilities? I find that hard to believe, but if true, it would be a remarkable set of circumstances that adds much more flavor to the whole hijacking enchilada.
As for the seating configurations, I appreciate the many sketches that have been provided here, but none so far seem to have only 18 rows of seats. Am I missing something, or is this "cigar" really hard to nail down at this point.
Lastly, as for whether I "believe" you Robert 99 and Georger, it is more of a question of whether I accept your point of views or if the facts compel me to seek a broader interpretation. I believe the latter is the case.
Bruce, You are in fact missing something. If you can't bring yourself to believe that seat rows are numbered as has been explained here by a number of people, including sweet little me, then why don't you explain how you think they are numbered. Just don't let nasty little facts get in the way of your "broader interpretation".
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If Flight 305 had four rows in 1st Class, there must have been 14 rows in "Tourist" if DB Cooper was sitting in the last row and his seat was 18-D/E.
My math then proceeds: 16 seats in 1st Class, (4 rows with four seats total per row) and 108 seats in Tourist, (14 rows with 6 seats per row). That makes a total of 124 seats.
But we need to stick a galley in there somewhere. Was the rear galley the only one? What happened to the mid-ship galley on NWO planes?
I understand that there are many sketches of 727 seat configurations, dependent upon individual airline requirements. I'm just trying to find out the most plausible configuration or layout on Flight 305, and of course, who was sitting where.
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If Flight 305 had four rows in 1st Class, there must have been 14 rows in "Tourist" if DB Cooper was sitting in the last row and his seat was 18-D/E.
My math then proceeds: 16 seats in 1st Class, (4 rows with four seats total per row) and 108 seats in Tourist, (14 rows with 6 seats per row). That makes a total of 124 seats.
But we need to stick a galley in there somewhere. Was the rear galley the only one? What happened to the mid-ship galley on NWO planes?
I understand that there are many sketches of 727 seat configurations, dependent upon individual airline requirements. I'm just trying to find out the most plausible configuration or layout on Flight 305, and of course, who was sitting where.
Bruce, hold everything!
Four rows with four seats each equals 16 seats. There were 14 rows with six seats each in tourist. Six multiplied by 14 is 84 and NOT 108!
There were 16 first class seats and 84 tourist seats. Sixteen added to 84 is exactly 100 and NOT 128.
May I suggest that you sign up with Dr. Meyer Louie, a member of this thread and a professional mathematician, for some classes on grocery store arithmetic.
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If Flight 305 had four rows in 1st Class, there must have been 14 rows in "Tourist" if DB Cooper was sitting in the last row and his seat was 18-D/E.
My math then proceeds: 16 seats in 1st Class, (4 rows with four seats total per row) and 108 seats in Tourist, (14 rows with 6 seats per row). That makes a total of 124 seats.
But we need to stick a galley in there somewhere. Was the rear galley the only one? What happened to the mid-ship galley on NWO planes?
I understand that there are many sketches of 727 seat configurations, dependent upon individual airline requirements. I'm just trying to find out the most plausible configuration or layout on Flight 305, and of course, who was sitting where.
Bruce, hold everything!
Four rows with four seats each equals 16 seats. There were 14 rows with six seats each in tourist. Six multiplied by 14 is 84 and NOT 108!
There were 16 first class seats and 84 tourist seats. Sixteen added to 84 is exactly 100 and NOT 128.
May I suggest that you sign up with Dr. Meyer Louie, a member of this thread and a professional mathematician, for some classes on grocery store arithmetic.
And, let's not even talk about the fact that many planes skip row 13, so there might only be 94 seats.
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If Flight 305 had four rows in 1st Class, there must have been 14 rows in "Tourist" if DB Cooper was sitting in the last row and his seat was 18-D/E.
My math then proceeds: 16 seats in 1st Class, (4 rows with four seats total per row) and 108 seats in Tourist, (14 rows with 6 seats per row). That makes a total of 124 seats.
But we need to stick a galley in there somewhere. Was the rear galley the only one? What happened to the mid-ship galley on NWO planes?
I understand that there are many sketches of 727 seat configurations, dependent upon individual airline requirements. I'm just trying to find out the most plausible configuration or layout on Flight 305, and of course, who was sitting where.
Bruce, hold everything!
Four rows with four seats each equals 16 seats. There were 14 rows with six seats each in tourist. Six multiplied by 14 is 84 and NOT 108!
There were 16 first class seats and 84 tourist seats. Sixteen added to 84 is exactly 100 and NOT 128.
May I suggest that you sign up with Dr. Meyer Louie, a member of this thread and a professional mathematician, for some classes on grocery store arithmetic.
And, let's not even talk about the fact that many planes skip row 13, so there might only be 94 seats.
Personally, I have never seen Row 13 skipped. From what I have seen, the aviation community is not very superstitious but may have some fatalistic tendencies.
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Bruce: An article on our friend 377 has just been published in the QST mag of the Amateur Radio Hams (May 2016) about radio communications while skydiving. In talking with 377 he estimates that DB Cooper could have talked up to 90 miles when at 10,000 ft which could have made one or two ground helpers if stationed half way between Seattle and Portland be in good contact on CB radios. 377 based his estimate of distance from the work he is currently doing that was in the QST mag. Had the ground men used loop antennas, they could have followed DB to the ground and used CB radio to find out where to pick him up. I know 377 would like to see radio gear a part of the DB Cooper case and he is now gathering info on just how it could have been done. Duane Webber had a lot of CB radio gear in his car per Jo his wife. She would like to make Duane be Cooper but he was never that smart in his other crimes but could have been one of the ground men. The other ground man I think was Cossey from the way he talked when I last talked to him on the phone. DB/Sheridan and Cossey had to know each other as they both worked at the Issaquah Airport teaching skydiving.
My FLAW found in Sheridan's phony alibi should allow the FBI to close the case finally
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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I think it is very plausible that DB Cooper had a radio and was able to communicate with a ground team. Add in an 11-hour head start before anyone went looking in LZ-A, and we have a recipe for a successful getaway.
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Nobody wishes that DB Cooper had used a radio more than I do, but there is ZERO evidence that he did. Not one scintilla. Zip. Nada.
Would it have worked to enable a rendezvous with a ground man? It is certainly possible. I've made dozens of radio jumps and have first hand experience regarding coverage area etc.
The MAC SOG jumpers used a small portable radio beacon and and very simple direction finding gear (Japanese transistor radios with internal ferrite bar antennas) to meet up after a night jump into the jungle. It was reported to work quite well.
Using just loop antennas for direction finding has a problem in that you get two bearings 180 degrees apart. But that's usually resolvable using logic and a very rough idea of which direction that station lies from you. More advanced DF sets have sense antenna circuits that give only one bearing and eliminate the 180 degree ambiguity.
If DB Cooper had a 1971 vintage CB walkie talkie and an accomplice was on a high peak, ground to ground comms would have been possible over considerable distance. If Cooper could see the peak he could talk to an accomplice there even if it was 20 miles away. I think the chances of Cooper operating a radio on the way down were low. Its hard enough in good weather and daylight.
Could a radio have been useful in meeting up with an accomplice? Unquestionably yes.
Was one used? Zero evidence that it was.
377
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Bruce: An article on our friend 377 has just been published in the QST mag of the Amateur Radio Hams (May 2016) about radio communications while skydiving. In talking with 377 he estimates that DB Cooper could have talked up to 90 miles when at 10,000 ft which could have made one or two ground helpers if stationed half way between Seattle and Portland be in good contact on CB radios. 377 based his estimate of distance from the work he is currently doing that was in the QST mag. Had the ground men used loop antennas, they could have followed DB to the ground and used CB radio to find out where to pick him up. I know 377 would like to see radio gear a part of the DB Cooper case and he is now gathering info on just how it could have been done. Duane Webber had a lot of CB radio gear in his car per Jo his wife. She would like to make Duane be Cooper but he was never that smart in his other crimes but could have been one of the ground men. The other ground man I think was Cossey from the way he talked when I last talked to him on the phone. DB/Sheridan and Cossey had to know each other as they both worked at the Issaquah Airport teaching skydiving.
My FLAW found in Sheridan's phony alibi should allow the FBI to close the case finally
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
Sailshaw has a point about Cossey and Peterson. Almost impossible that they didn't know each other. The skydiving community was small back then. Dropzones were few and far between. Riggers and instructors were at the top of the pecking order. They might not have been friends but I'll bet they knew who the other person was.
As for Duane playing any role in NORJACK, highly unlikely. If he were involved the case would have been solved long ago due to some screwup. You've heard the term journeyman criminal? Well let's say Duane's arrest and conviction history says he was still in the apprentice program.
377
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Nobody wishes that DB Cooper had used a radio more than I do, but there is ZERO evidence that he did. Not one scintilla. Zip. Nada.
Would it have worked to enable a rendezvous with a ground man? It is certainly possible. I've made dozens of radio jumps and have first hand experience regarding coverage area etc.
The MAC SOG jumpers used a small portable radio beacon and and very simple direction finding gear (Japanese transistor radios with internal ferrite bar antennas) to meet up after a night jump into the jungle. It was reported to work quite well.
Using just loop antennas for direction finding has a problem in that you get two bearings 180 degrees apart. But that's usually resolvable using logic and a very rough idea of which direction that station lies from you. More advanced DF sets have sense antenna circuits that give only one bearing and eliminate the 180 degree ambiguity.
If DB Cooper had a 1971 vintage CB walkie talkie and an accomplice was on a high peak, ground to ground comms would have been possible over considerable distance. If Cooper could see the peak he could talk to an accomplice there even if it was 20 miles away. I think the chances of Cooper operating a radio on the way down were low. Its hard enough in good weather and daylight.
Could a radio have been useful in meeting up with an accomplice? Unquestionably yes.
Was one used? Zero evidence that it was.
377
.. - - .. , There is no evidence he knew where he was or where he would jump to coordinate with a helper, unless the target was the Portland-Vancouver area. In spite of it looking like he wanted to be ready to jump quick/early, which he did not do and he hadn't even lowered the stairs for (by the way), he waited until the next large landmarks were visible in front of him if you believe Rataczak ("we were in the suburbs of Vancouver when the bump happened"). If he had always planned to jump in that area then 'yes', a radio and a helper might have helped.
One value of a radio that I see is an ability to keep track of news on radio stations, to listen to law enforcement (possibly), to know what law enforcement is doing, and possibly for direction finding. He could very easily have had a small transistor AM/FM pocket radio. He could have used that radio to know when he was getting close to Vancouver-Portland (just like aviators did when making bombing runs in WWII).
But, nobody saw him with a radio at the airport or on the plane. We have no testimony that the crew heard a radio playing in the back. But, he could have used ear plugs. There are always hypothetical options in what is hypothetical to begin with. :)
ps: If Cooper intended to bail early to stay with a plan and a schedule/appointment (the Carr Theory) he sure didn't press the issue, just as he didn't press the issue of the missing backpack, the stall in refueling until Rataczak called an end to that ruse, and not having the stairs out! These stalls and allowances by Cooper put his first opportunity for jumping somewhere between Ariel and Vancouver, if the record is accurate. If you can add a few more minutes, now his area of drop falls in the Vancouver area proper and he is dangerously close to when the plane crossed the Columbia. The fact everyone seems to be missing here is Cooper intentionally waited! He could have easily forced issues to get an earlier liftoff and stair out at take off or shortly thereafter! The "Intended to Bail Early Theory" just does not square with the facts of what Cooper actually did, and he was in control of the situation. However you read the facts, the idea that he always intended to bail close to Vancouver-Portland is a definite possibility. And of course some of his money turns up ... just west of Vancouver. I think the dots connect ???
If Cooper intended to bail out early close to Seattle, he sure screwed it up! That is not the mark of someone who is an expert tactical technician ... like Special Forces! Special Office Worker maybe? ;)
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G wrote: The fact everyone seems to be missing here is Cooper intentionally waited! He could have easily forced issues to get an earlier liftoff and stair out at take off or shortly thereafter! The "Intended to Bail Early Theory" just does not square with the facts of what Cooper actually did, and he was in control of the situation.
Interesting point. Hadn't thought about that before. I like it when folks take fresh look at old evidence and see something new.
I keep wondering how DBC could reasonably expect to elude searchers unless he had help on the ground. No vehicle, massive manhunt and cops had a pretty decent idea of the area that needed to be searched (presuming the exit point was accurately calculated). It wasn't an entire state that needed searching or anything close to that. I keep wondering if he intentionally jumped far from the presumed exit point. That would minimize the risk of immediate capture.
377
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presuming the exit point was accurately calculated
That's part of the key right there....
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If Cooper wore brown contacts and if he actually exited long after the pressure bump was felt, law enforcement would be searching for the wrong guy in the wrong place. That would dramatically reduce his chances of immediate capture and make it unlikely that he would be identified later.
I've always wondered why he was so casual about being seen up close. If you had a false eye color you'd want somebody to notice.
Colored contacts are a HUGE longshot, but they would have really helped DBC. Could that long bathroom delay be caused by dropping one of them while removing them for the jump?
377
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If Cooper wore brown contacts and if he actually exited long after the pressure bump was felt, law enforcement would be searching for the wrong guy in the wrong place. That would dramatically reduce his chances of immediate capture and make it unlikely that he would be identified later.
I've always wondered why he was so casual about being seen up close. If you had a false eye color you'd want somebody to notice.
Colored contacts are a HUGE longshot, but they would have really helped DBC. Could that long bathroom delay be caused by dropping one of them while removing them for the jump?
377
Agree - to me he acts a bit fatalistic. But that could be flat out wrong. He leaves evidence, he's seen up close, his voice is even recognisable ... either he expected to escape and had deep cover after that, or he didn't care and was taking his chances. Its that damnable dualism between Expert vs Lucky Schmuck!
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Its that damnable dualism between Expert vs Lucky Schmuck!
That pretty much sums up the scope of the discussion.
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He wanted the rear door down on take off. That, to some, is evidence that he wanted to bail very early on. That argument can certainly be made.
But, one thing we know for a fact is that Cooper had trouble getting the door open in flight. To the point of basically having someone else do it for him. So, if Cooper is sitting on this plane, and he knows that he don't know how to open the aft door. Does it not make perfect sense that he would want it open before take off? After all, if he can't get it open once the plane is in the air, he is a sitting duck, and he knows this.
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He wanted the rear door down on take off. That, to some, is evidence that he wanted to bail very early on. That argument can certainly be made.
But, one thing we know for a fact is that Cooper had trouble getting the door open in flight. To the point of basically having someone else do it for him. So, if Cooper is sitting on this plane, and he knows that he don't know how to open the aft door. Does it not make perfect sense that he would want it open before take off? After all, if he can't get it open once the plane is in the air, he is a sitting duck, and he knows this.
Not quite a sitting duck, imho. He's got Tina to show him how to deploy the stairs. Plus, he still has the bomb, regardless of whether it really was a bomb - it functioned as a bomb. Hence, he still had a degree of leverage to get someone on board to open the stairs.
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But, one thing we know for a fact is that Cooper had trouble getting the door open in flight. To the point of basically having someone else do it for him. So, if Cooper is sitting on this plane, and he knows that he don't know how to open the aft door. Does it not make perfect sense that he would want it open before take off? After all, if he can't get it open once the plane is in the air, he is a sitting duck, and he knows this.
I never looked at it that way, but I think you're spot on.
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But, one thing we know for a fact is that Cooper had trouble getting the door open in flight. To the point of basically having someone else do it for him. So, if Cooper is sitting on this plane, and he knows that he don't know how to open the aft door. Does it not make perfect sense that he would want it open before take off? After all, if he can't get it open once the plane is in the air, he is a sitting duck, and he knows this.
I never looked at it that way, but I think you're spot on.
It could be as simple as that. everyone's busy putting labels on Cooper when it's very possible that he was just an ordinary guy.
"No Experience Required"
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He wanted the rear door down on take off. That, to some, is evidence that he wanted to bail very early on. That argument can certainly be made.
But, one thing we know for a fact is that Cooper had trouble getting the door open in flight. To the point of basically having someone else do it for him. So, if Cooper is sitting on this plane, and he knows that he don't know how to open the aft door. Does it not make perfect sense that he would want it open before take off? After all, if he can't get it open once the plane is in the air, he is a sitting duck, and he knows this.
Very good point. And if his bomb is not real, then what? :)
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Whether the bomb is real or not is a secondary consideration - really just an idle intellectual exercise. The more important fact is that the people responsible for taking action, ie: crew, NWO bosses, FBI bosses, thought it was real, or at the very least made the decision it was more important for safety's sake to treat the bomb as legit. Really, who would take the chance of gambling on the bomb and risking someone's death?
Anyone here willing to take that chance? If you were in charge on November 24, 1971, would you have made a different choice than the one made as recorded in history? If so, please identify yourself and explain your decision-making process, for I consider you a very dangerous person and would like to steer clear of you.
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It could be as simple as that. everyone's busy putting labels on Cooper when it's very possible that he was just an ordinary guy.
Isn't that just another label, "ordinary guy?"
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It could be as simple as that. everyone's busy putting labels on Cooper when it's very possible that he was just an ordinary guy.
Isn't that just another label, "ordinary guy?"
One must describe someone, somehow? "ordinary, average Joe" is not a special ops, or someone working for the FBI, or a super paratrooper 8)
Just an average guy who thought up some crazy scheme, and said, how hard can it be to pull a handle on a parachute?
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...how hard can it be to pull a handle on a parachute?
You'd be surprised at how many experienced skydivers have gone in as no pulls.
These guys almost did. Saved by technology (auto opener on reserve).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b90EzNNrQ2M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKY4uadJXk0
377
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Understood, but basically, that's parachuting in a nutshell. jump, pull....
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Understood, but basically, that's parachuting in a nutshell. jump, pull....
Well, almost. Gotta add LAND. That's actually that toughest part. Few parachutists have died above terra firma. ;)
377
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Understood, but basically, that's parachuting in a nutshell. jump, pull....
Well, almost. Gotta add LAND. That's actually that toughest part. Few parachutists have died above terra firma. ;)
377
I realize a lot more goes into this sport, and I'm not knocking it, but if you had to use a chute, odds are most could figure it out. landing at nite would be scary I'm sure....
You'd be surprised at how many experienced skydivers have gone in as no pulls.
So, how do you categorize this? do we now up the odds more with a no pull?
I remember back in the early 90's I had to go on a swingstage for the first time. I acted like I had done it before and was able to put my safety harness (full harness) on without ever doing one before. they are similar to a chute harness. prior to that, I used a safety belt. that was a lot different. I would hang out of windows wearing the belt. I would never do something like that now. we were installing shutters, and I would tie off to the center mullion and stand on the shutter below. that's how I was taught back then.
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After watching those videos, it appears skydiving is extremely simple and easy. I can see where someone with Cooper's level of experience could stick the landing with ease. Jump, count to 10, then pull. What could go wrong?
I'm really surprised that experienced skydivers don't imitate Cooper's jump more often. It seems like the ultimate jump experience would be to go up in a plane at night in similar conditions to the night Cooper jumped, have the pilot fly for half an hour in a direction unknown to the jumper, then do a blind jump from 10,000 feet with a road flare. I could do it pretty easily. It's not nearly as complicated as some of the decompression dives I've done in the past.
Maybe next November I'll rent a plane and do the jump. Who's with me?
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...how hard can it be to pull a handle on a parachute?
You'd be surprised at how many experienced skydivers have gone in as no pulls.
These guys almost did. Saved by technology (auto opener on reserve).
377
In addition to the people who simply didn't pull the ripcord, there have been other fatal cases where left-handed people making emergency jumps were observed to be trying to grab the ripcord as though it were on the right side of the parachute harness. Apparently, they simply didn't look at what they were trying to grab.
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Maybe next November I'll rent a plane and do the jump. Who's with me?
10 years ago I would take you up on the challenge. sadly, my thrill seeking days are over :P
To date, I believe the only one who has come close to simulating the jump was the stuntman for the movie "The Pursuit Of DB Cooper" the difference was the speed at 150 knots, and he jumped during the daytime. the jumps the skydivers did was also close, but the stairs were removed.
The picture provided is from the movie showing the cameraman filming during the jump.
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Maybe next November I'll rent a plane and do the jump. Who's with me?
10 years ago I would take you up on the challenge. sadly, my thrill seeking days are over :P
To date, I believe the only one who has come close to simulating the jump was the stuntman for the movie "The Pursuit Of DB Cooper" the difference was the speed at 150 knots, and he jumped during the daytime. the jumps the skydivers did was also close, but the stairs were removed.
The picture provided is from the movie showing the cameraman filming during the jump.
I think for safety's sake, we will allow helmets, goggles, boots and a cell phone to call the ground team. I don't think a simulated moneybag is necessary. Do you think we should use modern chutes? I'm leaning that way. The NB8 or NB6 would be more authentic and using modern chutes would almost be too easy.
The exiting part is not knowing where we are jumping. The pilot will not let us know where we are jumping, and the cloud cover will obscure the ground. It could be a wooded area, hilly, or urban. Many skydiver's have said the Cooper jump was a piece of cake and they could have made the jump no problem. I say we prove it. Nailing this jump will be the final nail in the coffin for the notion that Cooper didn't survive the jump.
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Nailing this jump will be the final nail in the coffin for the notion that Cooper didn't survive the jump.
No it won't, so save your nails. There are a number of other factors that figure into whether Cooper survived the jump or not. Stay tuned.
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Maybe next November I'll rent a plane and do the jump. Who's with me?
10 years ago I would take you up on the challenge. sadly, my thrill seeking days are over :P
To date, I believe the only one who has come close to simulating the jump was the stuntman for the movie "The Pursuit Of DB Cooper" the difference was the speed at 150 knots, and he jumped during the daytime. the jumps the skydivers did was also close, but the stairs were removed.
The picture provided is from the movie showing the cameraman filming during the jump.
I think for safety's sake, we will allow helmets, goggles, boots and a cell phone to call the ground team. I don't think a simulated moneybag is necessary. Do you think we should use modern chutes? I'm leaning that way. The NB8 or NB6 would be more authentic and using modern chutes would almost be too easy.
The exiting part is not knowing where we are jumping. The pilot will not let us know where we are jumping, and the cloud cover will obscure the ground. It could be a wooded area, hilly, or urban. Many skydiver's have said the Cooper jump was a piece of cake and they could have made the jump no problem. I say we prove it. Nailing this jump will be the final nail in the coffin for the notion that Cooper didn't survive the jump.
I'll be on the ground crew watching you daredevils.
I'll equip you with APRS beacons so we can follow your progress. See the APRS plot (link below) of one of my jumps a couple of weeks ago. If you click on the red dots you can see telemetry data. SPO2 is blood oxygen percent and HR is heart rate.
http://aprs.fi/#!mt=roadmap&z=15&call=a%2FAF6IM&timerange=3600&tail=900
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Its that damnable dualism between Expert vs Lucky Schmuck!
That pretty much sums up the scope of the discussion.
Well said – for a clever fellow he spends a lot of time tripping over his shoelaces. Suppose that is why he wore loafers when it counted most?
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I think LD Cooper showed that if given a good suspect the FBI is still interested and will move fast.
Lots of people wondered why the FBI focused so much on LD. the odds are against Cooper using any part of his real name. some how Marla got them to listen, but it didn't take long for them to wise up. the last I heard, Marla was trying the FBI/CIA angle.
Much like the Kenny/Weber story, Marla's changed over time. problems surfaced (like the others). I uncovered a birth record issue with LD. he's younger than what is stated. the present records show him born several months before his older brother Dewey Max Cooper.
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It could be as simple as that. everyone's busy putting labels on Cooper when it's very possible that he was just an ordinary guy.
Isn't that just another label, "ordinary guy?"
One must describe someone, somehow? "ordinary, average Joe" is not a special ops, or someone working for the FBI, or a super paratrooper 8)
Just an average guy who thought up some crazy scheme, and said, how hard can it be to pull a handle on a parachute?
The Carr scenario: someone who knew just enough to get himself into real trouble. And that overlaps with "political type". Someone without a criminal history who decides to take a stand and make a point. Like the bombers in Madison (Sterling Hall 1970) and Iowa City during the 60s/70s during Vietnam. And that could bring in a Latin connection and even a British connection... Cuba, Mexico, England. Foreigners shuttling between these countries and Canada, draft dodgers and their older Service Committee supporters sheltering in places like Toronto Canada etc. ...
I remember this era very well. And when I first heard about the Cooper hijacking a number of us thought: here we go again! Another political statement by somebody. Some guy bailing out of a 727 with $200,000 dollars. And one person remarked: maybe we should go up and rent a plane and look for the cash spread out over a five mile circle. We classified the hijacking as another political statement buy somebody, in over his head! We were sure they would find a corpse and the money - but of course it didn't work out quite that way.
The problem with the people that keep being promoted by promoters is they are all (for lack of a better word) "common dumb-ass white boys and delinquents with a criminal history" ... who dont fit the mold or the physical description! And a lot of "dumpy short balding guys" that Hollywood couldnt even retrofit into playing Gregory Peck! It's silliness like this that has distorted the focus on who and what Cooper was, imho.
The lack of a finger print match indicates to me Cooper was out of the criminal system, and in the 60s and 70s that was the norm. Non-criminals didn't get finger printed very much in jobs etc.
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Discussion Re-Set
I agree with Shut that the discussion under "Suspects" was wandering afield, so I copied the most-pertinent post of the current thoughts expressed there and have re-posted them below:
I agree with Bruce Smith's comment on another thread: when Cooper is unmasked it will be someone we have never heard of. I think LD Cooper showed that if given a good suspect the FBI is still interested and will move fast.
Currently halfway through Skyjack! Read the publicly released FBI interviews. Interesting how they differ from all the interpretations out there.
A few things I noted about DB while reading:
1 - Didn't demonstrate any real knowledge about the 727 other than it could fly with the aft stairs down. Either he didn't know the stairs could be lowered in flight or he had another reason to want them down, like to ensure they stayed within 10,000 feet.
2 - Comfortable working with parachutes
3 - Not a drinker
4 - Didn't seem like a loner, was comfortable around people and in social situations. If was a career criminal then he must have been a confidence man and not the mafia or street thug type. Seemed to be somewhat educated
5 - What was in the paper bag he had with him? Goggles? Footwear?
6 - Why was he so insistent that the crew stay up front and not watch what he was doing? To conceal his actual jump time? To delay pursuit for as long as possible?
7 - Seemed like a well planned job. The only weakness was his choice of footwear and we don't know what else he had on the plane. The stewardess's only mentioned seeing the attache case and paper sack. Would we know if he had other luggage with him?
Here are some comments for the indicated number:
1. Cooper did have some unique information related to the 727. He specified the altitude, speed, landing gear position, and flap setting for the airliner during the flight south. Keeping the landing gear down was one means to limit the speed. Keeping the rear bulkhead door open, and the stairs unlocked, insured that the aircraft cabin could not be pressurized and this limited the altitude. After the argument with the copilot about taking off with the stairs down, he agreed to leave them up but reportedly told the stewardess that he knew the airliner could take off with them down. Cooper may have wanted to jump within a few minutes of the take off from Seattle.
2. Cooper may have had experience wearing emergency parachutes, but he did not appear to be knowledgeable about skydiving rigs.
3. Not a heavy drinker or smoker. Ckret wrote that Cooper had one drink and spilled most of it. And that he smoked less than 10 cigarettes in the 5+ hours that he was under observation.
5. Unknown contents of the small bag.
6. Law enforcement people sometimes became part of the flight crews of hijacked airliners. And some of those LE crew members were actually capable of flying the aircraft. If the possibility had presented itself, I'm sure that LE would have taken Cooper into custody one way or the other.
7. The hijacking was very poorly planned. Cooper wasn't specific enough about wanting skydiver parachute rigs, he didn't realize that one of the reserve chutes was a dummy for training only, he didn't know how to lower the rear stairs, and had difficulty doing so even after being instructed on the matter by the stewardess. He did not have any other luggage with him when he checked in and bought his ticket. He could not have smuggled anything else on board from Portland.
Finally, it was mostly luck that Cooper got the money in the first place. Cooper specified that the airliner was not to land in Seattle until the money was available and he wanted it by 5:00 PM. Sunset in Seattle that day was about 4:45 PM. He didn't get the money until about 7:15 PM and was fortunate that the banks hadn't already set their vaults on time locks so that they couldn't be opened until the day after Thanksgiving.
All of this meant that Cooper's jump was going to be at night over some lousy woods and mountains, unless he could jump very close to Seattle. Say in the area of McChord AFB and Fort Lewis.
good material ... and the particles on the tie?
<sorry if this discussion belongs somewhere else - you can move if you want?? I only caught your note after I posted.>
First, Welcome Mack.
I agree with much of your assessment of DB Cooper's skills, and would like to add that Cooper's knowledge of the 727 was actually quite advanced despite what Robert99 and others may assert. To wit: Cooper knew the 727 had a "predent" flap setting of 15 degrees, "the only Boeing product to have such a setting," Rataczak told me. Rataczak added that when Cooper demanded that the flaps be set at "15," he knew that the hijacker "knew something about airplanes." Rataczak spoke about the HJ's knowledge in a very respectful and warm manner, too.
I would also say that the hijacking appeared to be well-planned and well-executed, and I am not alone in that. Himmelsbach speaks very respectfully about DBC's skills, calling the use of a bomb a "game-changer." Further, most of the Special Ops guys I have spoken with, such as MAC-V-SOG troopers, consider the skill level of the HJ to equal to their own. As a result, many SOG troopers feel DBC is one of them.
There are many in the Norjak Investigatory World who characterize DBC as a "lucky schlub," and Geoffrey Gray is certainly leading the charge on that front. Some accounts of DBC are shifting to amplify DBC's "schlub-ness," such as Bill Mitchell's insistence that Cooper was a messy geek with bad hair and a "turkey gobble." But Bill's assessment is an outlier, and no other passenger or crew is corroborating Bill's view. Further, Bill's continued insistence to not talk about these disparities adds a tad more concern, as well.
Hence, the 3rd Edition of DB Cooper and the FBI will feature a lot more interviews with passengers and crew.
As for Cooper's "luck" in getting his money before the bank vault locked for the night, I'd like to hear more about that, as R99's comments are the first time I've heard that perspective. It is my understanding that all the money caches stockpiled by the FBI around the country at that time were accessible to the Bureau 24/7 in order to avoid any delays during a hostage situation.
Along those lines, I haven't heard before that Cooper had difficulty lowering the stairs once Tina showed him how to do it. It is true, however, that the slipstream didn't allow the stairs to fully deploy and that seemed to surprise DBC, who then called the cockpit to have Rataczak slow the plane down so that the stairs would extend. To me, that scenario is not "having difficulty." Cooper resolved the issue successfully.
As for the second bag that Cooper allegedly had, the only account of it I am aware of is from the passenger Nancy House, who sat in Row 16. She says that she saw Cooper emerge from the rear lav with this 12x12x4 paper or burlap bag laying on top of the bomb/briefcase. I think Alice may have said something about it, too, in her debrief with the FBI in Seattle, but I have never heard any suggestions of where the burlap bag came from or how it entered the plane. Certainly, no one reported DB Cooper carrying it aboard in Portland. So, what might have been in it is speculation added on top of mystery.
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Discussion Re-Set
I agree with Shut that the discussion under "Suspects" was wandering afield, so I copied the most-pertinent post of the current thoughts expressed there and have re-posted them below:
I agree with Bruce Smith's comment on another thread: when Cooper is unmasked it will be someone we have never heard of. I think LD Cooper showed that if given a good suspect the FBI is still interested and will move fast.
Currently halfway through Skyjack! Read the publicly released FBI interviews. Interesting how they differ from all the interpretations out there.
A few things I noted about DB while reading:
1 - Didn't demonstrate any real knowledge about the 727 other than it could fly with the aft stairs down. Either he didn't know the stairs could be lowered in flight or he had another reason to want them down, like to ensure they stayed within 10,000 feet.
2 - Comfortable working with parachutes
3 - Not a drinker
4 - Didn't seem like a loner, was comfortable around people and in social situations. If was a career criminal then he must have been a confidence man and not the mafia or street thug type. Seemed to be somewhat educated
5 - What was in the paper bag he had with him? Goggles? Footwear?
6 - Why was he so insistent that the crew stay up front and not watch what he was doing? To conceal his actual jump time? To delay pursuit for as long as possible?
7 - Seemed like a well planned job. The only weakness was his choice of footwear and we don't know what else he had on the plane. The stewardess's only mentioned seeing the attache case and paper sack. Would we know if he had other luggage with him?
Here are some comments for the indicated number:
1. Cooper did have some unique information related to the 727. He specified the altitude, speed, landing gear position, and flap setting for the airliner during the flight south. Keeping the landing gear down was one means to limit the speed. Keeping the rear bulkhead door open, and the stairs unlocked, insured that the aircraft cabin could not be pressurized and this limited the altitude. After the argument with the copilot about taking off with the stairs down, he agreed to leave them up but reportedly told the stewardess that he knew the airliner could take off with them down. Cooper may have wanted to jump within a few minutes of the take off from Seattle.
2. Cooper may have had experience wearing emergency parachutes, but he did not appear to be knowledgeable about skydiving rigs.
3. Not a heavy drinker or smoker. Ckret wrote that Cooper had one drink and spilled most of it. And that he smoked less than 10 cigarettes in the 5+ hours that he was under observation.
5. Unknown contents of the small bag.
6. Law enforcement people sometimes became part of the flight crews of hijacked airliners. And some of those LE crew members were actually capable of flying the aircraft. If the possibility had presented itself, I'm sure that LE would have taken Cooper into custody one way or the other.
7. The hijacking was very poorly planned. Cooper wasn't specific enough about wanting skydiver parachute rigs, he didn't realize that one of the reserve chutes was a dummy for training only, he didn't know how to lower the rear stairs, and had difficulty doing so even after being instructed on the matter by the stewardess. He did not have any other luggage with him when he checked in and bought his ticket. He could not have smuggled anything else on board from Portland.
Finally, it was mostly luck that Cooper got the money in the first place. Cooper specified that the airliner was not to land in Seattle until the money was available and he wanted it by 5:00 PM. Sunset in Seattle that day was about 4:45 PM. He didn't get the money until about 7:15 PM and was fortunate that the banks hadn't already set their vaults on time locks so that they couldn't be opened until the day after Thanksgiving.
All of this meant that Cooper's jump was going to be at night over some lousy woods and mountains, unless he could jump very close to Seattle. Say in the area of McChord AFB and Fort Lewis.
good material ... and the particles on the tie?
<sorry if this discussion belongs somewhere else - you can move if you want?? I only caught your note after I posted.>
First, Welcome Mack.
I agree with much of your assessment of DB Cooper's skills, and would like to add that Cooper's knowledge of the 727 was actually quite advanced despite what Robert99 and others may assert. To wit: Cooper knew the 727 had a "predent" flap setting of 15 degrees, "the only Boeing product to have such a setting," Rataczak told me. Rataczak added that when Cooper demanded that the flaps be set at "15," he knew that the hijacker "knew something about airplanes." Rataczak spoke about the HJ's knowledge in a very respectful and warm manner, too.
I would also say that the hijacking appeared to be well-planned and well-executed, and I am not alone in that. Himmelsbach speaks very respectfully about DBC's skills, calling the use of a bomb a "game-changer." Further, most of the Special Ops guys I have spoken with, such as MAC-V-SOG troopers, consider the skill level of the HJ to equal to their own. As a result, many SOG troopers feel DBC is one of them.
There are many in the Norjak Investigatory World who characterize DBC as a "lucky schlub," and Geoffrey Gray is certainly leading the charge on that front. Some accounts of DBC are shifting to amplify DBC's "schlub-ness," such as Bill Mitchell's insistence that Cooper was a messy geek with bad hair and a "turkey gobble." But Bill's assessment is an outlier, and no other passenger or crew is corroborating Bill's view. Further, Bill's continued insistence to not talk about these disparities adds a tad more concern, as well.
Hence, the 3rd Edition of DB Cooper and the FBI will feature a lot more interviews with passengers and crew.
As for Cooper's "luck" in getting his money before the bank vault locked for the night, I'd like to hear more about that, as R99's comments are the first time I've heard that perspective. It is my understanding that all the money caches stockpiled by the FBI around the country at that time were accessible to the Bureau 24/7 in order to avoid any delays during a hostage situation.
Along those lines, I haven't heard before that Cooper had difficulty lowering the stairs once Tina showed him how to do it. It is true, however, that the slipstream didn't allow the stairs to fully deploy and that seemed to surprise DBC, who then called the cockpit to have Rataczak slow the plane down so that the stairs would extend. To me, that scenario is not "having difficulty." Cooper resolved the issue successfully.
As for the second bag that Cooper allegedly had, the only account of it I am aware of is from the passenger Nancy House, who sat in Row 16. She says that she saw Cooper emerge from the rear lav with this 12x12x4 paper or burlap bag laying on top of the bomb/briefcase. I think Alice may have said something about it, too, in her debrief with the FBI in Seattle, but I have never heard any suggestions of where the burlap bag came from or how it entered the plane. Certainly, no one reported DB Cooper carrying it aboard in Portland. So, what might have been in it is speculation added on top of mystery.
Bruce, the matter of the pre-selected indent positions for the flaps was discussed at great length on DZ. Typically, an airliner being operated by a "line flight crew" has four or five flap settings that have been pre-set at specific flap deflection angles. And in the 1971 time frame, the flight crew would have had printed cards, which they could put on the center console and refer to, that gave the aircraft's performance at each of those settings and at various weights, etc.
During the discussions on DZ, we were never able to determine how the 727 flap indentations were set. But based on my personal experience of having flown as a passenger on any number of 727s from various airlines, my guess is that there was another flap indent at about 5 degrees (0 degrees would be flaps and all leading edge devices retraced).
This first setting at about 5 degrees would activate and move the leading edge slats (near the wing tips) to their forward position. The outboard ailerons were on the wing trailing edge directly behind the slats and my guess is that the slats were used to increase the lateral control from the ailerons. Typically on take off, the slats would remain deployed until the aircraft got above about 10,000 feet and was no longer subject to a speed limit.
My guess is that Rataczak was surprised when Cooper specified the 15 degree flap setting. And I also guess that this setting would also deploy the leading edge Krueger flaps. Remember that the flight crew reported that they had trouble maintaining altitude during turns (see the Oakland ATC radio transcripts). The Krueger flaps deployed and the landing gear down would result in a high drag condition for the aircraft and explain the turning problem.
Also, contrary to your claim, I stated in my paragraph 1 comments above that Cooper did have unique information on the 727.
What is the source for your statement that the FBI kept caches of money at various banks and had ready access to it. How much money was kept at a given location and how was it stored? It obviously was not in a time controlled vault. Was the money kept in the janitor's closet or the break room refrigerator?
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Larry Carr
The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of this.
The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and handed over to NWA. The money was bundled in various counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was secured by rubber band and different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered.
There is no way Cooper could have known Seafirst bank would provide the money, most all of the national banks could have been tapped for this. It was essentially a cash loan from SeaFirst to NWA. The reason SeaFirst provided the money was that NWA most likely had accounts with them.
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As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI.
NWA didn't have any part of the flight path?
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I've often wondered if Cooper opened the first chute without really checking out the other one. That perhaps he did recognize it as a dummy chute, but only after he had opened and cut up the other one.
I also never understood how they came to believe he wasn't a drinker. I love beer. I've drank it for many years, and I still spill one from time to time. I just think the non drinker suggestion is a reach.
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As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to -the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI.
NWA didn't have any part of the flight path?
Shutter, Your question goes against all the Revealed Wisdom From On High that Blevins blessed us with on DZ. :o
I don't think the Ckret quotes from your last two posts were included in his posts that were released by WSHM. Were they from the posts not released by WSHM?
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Discussion Re-Set
I agree with Shut that the discussion under "Suspects" was wandering afield, so I copied the most-pertinent post of the current thoughts expressed there and have re-posted them below:
I agree with Bruce Smith's comment on another thread: when Cooper is unmasked it will be someone we have never heard of. I think LD Cooper showed that if given a good suspect the FBI is still interested and will move fast.
Currently halfway through Skyjack! Read the publicly released FBI interviews. Interesting how they differ from all the interpretations out there.
A few things I noted about DB while reading:
1 - Didn't demonstrate any real knowledge about the 727 other than it could fly with the aft stairs down. Either he didn't know the stairs could be lowered in flight or he had another reason to want them down, like to ensure they stayed within 10,000 feet.
2 - Comfortable working with parachutes
3 - Not a drinker
4 - Didn't seem like a loner, was comfortable around people and in social situations. If was a career criminal then he must have been a confidence man and not the mafia or street thug type. Seemed to be somewhat educated
5 - What was in the paper bag he had with him? Goggles? Footwear?
6 - Why was he so insistent that the crew stay up front and not watch what he was doing? To conceal his actual jump time? To delay pursuit for as long as possible?
7 - Seemed like a well planned job. The only weakness was his choice of footwear and we don't know what else he had on the plane. The stewardess's only mentioned seeing the attache case and paper sack. Would we know if he had other luggage with him?
Here are some comments for the indicated number:
1. Cooper did have some unique information related to the 727. He specified the altitude, speed, landing gear position, and flap setting for the airliner during the flight south. Keeping the landing gear down was one means to limit the speed. Keeping the rear bulkhead door open, and the stairs unlocked, insured that the aircraft cabin could not be pressurized and this limited the altitude. After the argument with the copilot about taking off with the stairs down, he agreed to leave them up but reportedly told the stewardess that he knew the airliner could take off with them down. Cooper may have wanted to jump within a few minutes of the take off from Seattle.
2. Cooper may have had experience wearing emergency parachutes, but he did not appear to be knowledgeable about skydiving rigs.
3. Not a heavy drinker or smoker. Ckret wrote that Cooper had one drink and spilled most of it. And that he smoked less than 10 cigarettes in the 5+ hours that he was under observation.
5. Unknown contents of the small bag.
6. Law enforcement people sometimes became part of the flight crews of hijacked airliners. And some of those LE crew members were actually capable of flying the aircraft. If the possibility had presented itself, I'm sure that LE would have taken Cooper into custody one way or the other.
7. The hijacking was very poorly planned. Cooper wasn't specific enough about wanting skydiver parachute rigs, he didn't realize that one of the reserve chutes was a dummy for training only, he didn't know how to lower the rear stairs, and had difficulty doing so even after being instructed on the matter by the stewardess. He did not have any other luggage with him when he checked in and bought his ticket. He could not have smuggled anything else on board from Portland.
Finally, it was mostly luck that Cooper got the money in the first place. Cooper specified that the airliner was not to land in Seattle until the money was available and he wanted it by 5:00 PM. Sunset in Seattle that day was about 4:45 PM. He didn't get the money until about 7:15 PM and was fortunate that the banks hadn't already set their vaults on time locks so that they couldn't be opened until the day after Thanksgiving.
All of this meant that Cooper's jump was going to be at night over some lousy woods and mountains, unless he could jump very close to Seattle. Say in the area of McChord AFB and Fort Lewis.
good material ... and the particles on the tie?
<sorry if this discussion belongs somewhere else - you can move if you want?? I only caught your note after I posted.>
First, Welcome Mack.
I agree with much of your assessment of DB Cooper's skills, and would like to add that Cooper's knowledge of the 727 was actually quite advanced despite what Robert99 and others may assert. To wit: Cooper knew the 727 had a "predent" flap setting of 15 degrees, "the only Boeing product to have such a setting," Rataczak told me. Rataczak added that when Cooper demanded that the flaps be set at "15," he knew that the hijacker "knew something about airplanes." Rataczak spoke about the HJ's knowledge in a very respectful and warm manner, too.
I would also say that the hijacking appeared to be well-planned and well-executed, and I am not alone in that. Himmelsbach speaks very respectfully about DBC's skills, calling the use of a bomb a "game-changer." Further, most of the Special Ops guys I have spoken with, such as MAC-V-SOG troopers, consider the skill level of the HJ to equal to their own. As a result, many SOG troopers feel DBC is one of them.
There are many in the Norjak Investigatory World who characterize DBC as a "lucky schlub," and Geoffrey Gray is certainly leading the charge on that front. Some accounts of DBC are shifting to amplify DBC's "schlub-ness," such as Bill Mitchell's insistence that Cooper was a messy geek with bad hair and a "turkey gobble." But Bill's assessment is an outlier, and no other passenger or crew is corroborating Bill's view. Further, Bill's continued insistence to not talk about these disparities adds a tad more concern, as well.
Hence, the 3rd Edition of DB Cooper and the FBI will feature a lot more interviews with passengers and crew.
As for Cooper's "luck" in getting his money before the bank vault locked for the night, I'd like to hear more about that, as R99's comments are the first time I've heard that perspective. It is my understanding that all the money caches stockpiled by the FBI around the country at that time were accessible to the Bureau 24/7 in order to avoid any delays during a hostage situation.
Along those lines, I haven't heard before that Cooper had difficulty lowering the stairs once Tina showed him how to do it. It is true, however, that the slipstream didn't allow the stairs to fully deploy and that seemed to surprise DBC, who then called the cockpit to have Rataczak slow the plane down so that the stairs would extend. To me, that scenario is not "having difficulty." Cooper resolved the issue successfully.
As for the second bag that Cooper allegedly had, the only account of it I am aware of is from the passenger Nancy House, who sat in Row 16. She says that she saw Cooper emerge from the rear lav with this 12x12x4 paper or burlap bag laying on top of the bomb/briefcase. I think Alice may have said something about it, too, in her debrief with the FBI in Seattle, but I have never heard any suggestions of where the burlap bag came from or how it entered the plane. Certainly, no one reported DB Cooper carrying it aboard in Portland. So, what might have been in it is speculation added on top of mystery.
Along those lines, I haven't heard before that Cooper had difficulty lowering the stairs once Tina showed him how to do it. It is true, however, that the slipstream didn't allow the stairs to fully deploy and that seemed to surprise DBC, who then called the cockpit to have Rataczak slow the plane down so that the stairs would extend. To me, that scenario is not "having difficulty." Cooper resolved the issue successfully.
What time do you have for him calling forward to have the plane slowed ?
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As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to -the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI.
NWA didn't have any part of the flight path?
Shutter, Your question goes against all the Revealed Wisdom From On High that Blevins blessed us with on DZ. :o
I don't think the Ckret quotes from your last two posts were included in his posts that were released by WSHM. Were they from the posts not released by WSHM?
not sure if they are in those comments. I found it on the DZ...it was in the first thread that was locked.
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I've often wondered if Cooper opened the first chute without really checking out the other one. That perhaps he did recognize it as a dummy chute, but only after he had opened and cut up the other one.
I also never understood how they came to believe he wasn't a drinker. I love beer. I've drank it for many years, and I still spill one from time to time. I just think the non drinker suggestion is a reach.
I think Cooper's one drink was bourbon and water.
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Larry Carr
The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of this.
The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and handed over to NWA. The money was bundled in various counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was secured by rubber band and different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered.
There is no way Cooper could have known Seafirst bank would provide the money, most all of the national banks could have been tapped for this. It was essentially a cash loan from SeaFirst to NWA. The reason SeaFirst provided the money was that NWA most likely had accounts with them.
There is more than one 'vault' or secure storage area at most large banks. They dont advertise it, but think about this! :))
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As for the radar tapes, I cannot find where the tapes were ever given to the Bureau. All of the analysis was done by the Air Force and they most likely had their own procedures for storage of such tapes that did not include giving them to the FBI.
NWA didn't have any part of the flight path?
Of course they did - read the "NWA" cover certification for the "NWA" (FBI) search map 1972.
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Larry Carr
The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of America. The money had been earmarked for situations such as these and was always on hand. It had been photographed and serial numbers recorded by their security so the FBI did none of this.
The money was then transported by SeaFirst bank security to a Seattle police detective who then drove it to the airport and handed over to NWA. The money was bundled in various counts so that no bundle was the same. Each bundle was secured by rubber band and different counts so that it appeared the money was hastily gathered.
There is no way Cooper could have known Seafirst bank would provide the money, most all of the national banks could have been tapped for this. It was essentially a cash loan from SeaFirst to NWA. The reason SeaFirst provided the money was that NWA most likely had accounts with them.
There is more than one 'vault' or secure storage area at most large banks. They dont advertise it, but think about this! :))
Georger, You are assuming that Cooper knew that one or more banks in the Seattle area could come up with a total of $200,000 after the main banking day had ended and the in-house cash presumably locked up in time controlled vaults.
How could Cooper have known that $200,000 would be in some readily accessible vault or safe? How much money did the FBI/banks maintain in these special funds? What if Cooper had asked for $500,000 dollars? Did the FBI have access to that amount of money that had been microfilmed for just such an event?
Maybe we should just forget about skydivers and start checking for disgruntled bank employees who had at least a small amount of aviation knowledge/experience.
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On the same page as my previous quotes about the money/bank agent Carr responded to a similar question asked about how much money they had...
Yes, they had more than $200,000.
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=2540834;page=63;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;guest=208076243
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Carr again
The area on the map I posted was derived from analysis from the radar data. The rest of the flight path would have been from VOR to VOR
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Carr quotes and WSHM:
The WSHM has missed many Carr quotes from the DZ. The one about the money and its availability is one. Others have to do with discussions of the parachutes and Cossey. Nearly a dozen quotes are missing from the WSHM by my reckoning, and probably more.
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Bruce, the matter of the pre-selected indent positions for the flaps was discussed at great length on DZ. Typically, an airliner being operated by a "line flight crew" has four or five flap settings that have been pre-set at specific flap deflection angles. And in the 1971 time frame, the flight crew would have had printed cards, which they could put on the center console and refer to, that gave the aircraft's performance at each of those settings and at various weights, etc.
During the discussions on DZ, we were never able to determine how the 727 flap indentations were set...
Yes, I remember the discussion at the DZ very well, and I am still amazed that the essential information - what Rataczak said about the predent/Cooper's knowledge - is still marginalized or disregarded. Why?
Do you think I am lying about Rataczak? Or misinterpreting what he said? What do Rataczak's statements regarding the flaps at 15, predent, only Boeing product/"hj knew something about airplanes" mean to you?
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What time do you have for him calling forward to have the plane slowed ?
I'd have to check my notes, and re-read GG, Himms and Tosaw, but I think it was 8:05. Why do you ask?
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What time do you have for him calling forward to have the plane slowed ?
I'd have to check my notes, and re-read GG, Himms and Tosaw, but I think it was 8:05. Why do you ask?
I ask because 8:05 is the last comm according to Rtzk. Anderson however said there was one more call from Cooper after 8:05 which specifically asked them to slow and level the plane. The 8:05 call was initiated from the front and Cooper didn't answer right away, as Carr explained it. ??
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Ah, yes. I remember that. I'm tracking down Andy these days. If I get a hold of him, I'll ask for a clarification.
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Was the money kept in the janitor's closet or the break room refrigerator?
Is this a real question, R99? Or just the Forum's snarkiest comment of the month?
I recall Carr saying that the FBI's access to the money was actually an unfettered access to a bank employee who could retrieve the moolah from a secured area within the bank. It was my understanding that a designated bank employee was "on-call" to the FBI 24/7 to retrieve their money, and that this system was in place around the country in something like 200 banks and their corresponding FBI field offices.
It begs the question of what former FBI Assistant Director Tom Fuentes did for his 60-odd field offices that he set up around the world before he retired to become a TV talking head, in his effort to establish a global presence for the Bureau. For instance, what does the FBI do in Europe during hostage negotiations and the hijacker wants US cash? Do local bank stockpile Franklins? Or do they just pay in Euros and tell the hj to take a hike? Hmmm. I understand the Somali pirates are pretty picky. I wonder what the Boys of Isis prefer?
This whole process of developing active FBI field offices around the world - 180 or so are currently projected - has lots of interesting details to resolve, such as whose money do they stash, and who can get it. The global expansion of the FBI is perhaps the biggest un-reported, or under-reported, news story that I have come across. Maybe when I'm finished with the 3rd Edition I'll look into it.
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What time do you have for him calling forward to have the plane slowed ?
I'd have to check my notes, and re-read GG, Himms and Tosaw, but I think it was 8:05. Why do you ask?
I ask because 8:05 is the last comm according to Rtzk. Anderson however said there was one more call from Cooper after 8:05 which specifically asked them to slow and level the plane. The 8:05 call was initiated from the front and Cooper didn't answer right away, as Carr explained it. ??
The airplane was already level at 10,000 feet (or very close to it), so the only thing left to do was slow it down. In fact, the crew reported being level at 10,000 feet at 7:53:34 PM PST, at which time it was well north of the Mayfield/Malay Intersection and almost 20 minutes before Cooper is assumed to have jumped.
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Was the money kept in the janitor's closet or the break room refrigerator?
Is this a real question, R99? Or just the Forum's snarkiest comment of the month?
I recall Carr saying that the FBI's access to the money was actually an unfettered access to a bank employee who could retrieve the moolah from a secured area within the bank. It was my understanding that a designated bank employee was "on-call" to the FBI 24/7 to retrieve their money, and that this system was in place around the country in something like 200 banks and their corresponding FBI field offices.
It begs the question of what former FBI Assistant Director Tom Fuentes did for his 60-odd field offices that he set up around the world before he retired to become a TV talking head, in his effort to establish a global presence for the Bureau. For instance, what does the FBI do in Europe during hostage negotiations and the hijacker wants US cash? Do local bank stockpile Franklins? Or do they just pay in Euros and tell the hj to take a hike? Hmmm. I understand the Somali pirates are pretty picky. I wonder what the Boys of Isis prefer?
This whole process of developing active FBI field offices around the world - 180 or so are currently projected - has lots of interesting details to resolve, such as whose money do they stash, and who can get it. The global expansion of the FBI is perhaps the biggest un-reported, or under-reported, news story that I have come across. Maybe when I'm finished with the 3rd Edition I'll look into it.
Snarky comment? What's that?
Based on information in the recently hacked Panama Papers, the vast majority of white collar criminals (including the Russians and Middle East types) prefer their rewards to be converted to US dollars as fast as possible.
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Carr made another statement about where the money came from. this one is in the WSHM PDF..page 13
The money was provided by Seafirst bank which is now Bank of America. The money came from a fund that had been developed for situations like the Cooper hijacking. Seafirst security packaged the money (all of the serial numbers on the bills had been prerecorded by Seafirst) into a white cloth bag with no zipper or draw string.
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I've often wondered if Cooper opened the first chute without really checking out the other one. That perhaps he did recognize it as a dummy chute, but only after he had opened and cut up the other one.
That is my thought as well. In his frustration over the money not arriving as requested he could have lost his cool and cut up the good chute before looking at the other one. Of course he also wore loafers which hints at DB not knowing much about skydiving. After all he could easily have worn boots with his suite.
I know I was kind of posting in the wrong place but wanted to get the direction away from personalities and back to the case. 8)
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The stews witnessed him acting childish once the money arrived. I don't think the bag would throw him off of things he should be aware of if he was experienced. the dummy chute was sewn chute at the panels making it easy to retrieve and pack. it should of be noticeable, but then again, the person giving the chute out missed it as well. there was no way to even attach the front chutes.
Carr again
He tried to secure the money in the functioning reserve chute he took apart. If he knew what he was doing he would have tore open the dummy chute leaving the functioning reserve for it's intended purpose.
I'll go over the file but I don't beleive either had D rings. Can anyone shed light on the model that was left on the plane that I posted earlier.
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The way he was dressed could also point to someone wanting out quickly?
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I've often wondered if Cooper opened the first chute without really checking out the other one. That perhaps he did recognize it as a dummy chute, but only after he had opened and cut up the other one.
That is my thought as well. In his frustration over the money not arriving as requested he could have lost his cool and cut up the good chute before looking at the other one. Of course he also wore loafers which hints at DB not knowing much about skydiving. After all he could easily have worn boots with his suite.
I know I was kind of posting in the wrong place but wanted to get the direction away from personalities and back to the case. 8)
+1 :)
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Did anyone do any research on Cooper's tie; Kaye mentions JCP stopped selling it about a year before the hijacking, but when did they start selling the #3s?
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Did anyone do any research on Cooper's tie; Kaye mentions JCP stopped selling it about a year before the hijacking, but when did they start selling the #3s?
It might be on the DZ...the clip on tie itself will be 88 years old on December 13th 8)
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Did anyone do any research on Cooper's tie; Kaye mentions JCP stopped selling it about a year before the hijacking, but when did they start selling the #3s?
It might be on the DZ...the clip on tie itself will be 88 years old on December 13th 8)
I found a post from Farflung on the DZ that said the tie was available with that specific logo from 1964 until 1971. Unfortunately, the link used as a source was dead.
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I did a lot of research on the tie clip. it's impossible to pinpoint where it could of come from. they were mass produced, and different companies put there name on the box. I made a video some years back about the research....
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I have a few questions about the serial numbers of the bills and the manner in which they were monitored....
1. What was the system used by banks to screen for the Cooper bills? Did banks have some sort of scanning machine in which all $20 bills were filtered through to check for any guilty serial numbers?
2. Did every single bank in the U.S. perform this protocol?
3. How long was this screening process in place for? Just a few months after the hijacking? Several years?
Much has been made about how none of the bills ever turned up in circulation. I was wondering if anyone has any details about the screening process and how tightly guarded that process was.
Thanks!!
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I have a few questions about the serial numbers of the bills and the manner in which they were monitored....
1. What was the system used by banks to screen for the Cooper bills? Did banks have some sort of scanning machine in which all $20 bills were filtered through to check for any guilty serial numbers?
2. Did every single bank in the U.S. perform this protocol?
3. How long was this screening process in place for? Just a few months after the hijacking? Several years?
Much has been made about how none of the bills ever turned up in circulation. I was wondering if anyone has any details about the screening process and how tightly guarded that process was.
Thanks!!
It's my understanding they didn't look very long for the bills. imagine every 20 that past through the bank? I doubt many cooperated as the banks got further away from Washington..
The system they used was 33 pages, I believe, of serial numbers on the pages. I think it was 200 on each page.
Agent Carr stated that the money could of easily got through. the numbers were recorded more for prosecution purposes.
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As a side note on the money, I developed this tool a few years back...
http://www.check-six.com/lib/DBCooperLoot.htm
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As a side note on the money, I developed this tool a few years back...
http://www.check-six.com/lib/DBCooperLoot.htm
I thought that was you :P very cool to have you aboard....
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As a side note on the money, I developed this tool a few years back...
http://www.check-six.com/lib/DBCooperLoot.htm
I thought that was you :P very cool to have you aboard....
Really? You thought? lol
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As a side note on the money, I developed this tool a few years back...
http://www.check-six.com/lib/DBCooperLoot.htm
I thought that was you :P very cool to have you aboard....
Thank ya... As a further note, I was a member of Tom's team, searching for aviation-related documents and records. While I won't go into any detail, I will say the best evidence , IMHO, didn't make it on the show.
Presently, in my professional life, I am a staff writer for a major aviation organization on the East Coast, as well as commercial pilot, flight instructor, "aviation archaeologist", and so on.
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I have a few questions about the serial numbers of the bills and the manner in which they were monitored....
1. What was the system used by banks to screen for the Cooper bills? Did banks have some sort of scanning machine in which all $20 bills were filtered through to check for any guilty serial numbers?
2. Did every single bank in the U.S. perform this protocol?
3. How long was this screening process in place for? Just a few months after the hijacking? Several years?
Much has been made about how none of the bills ever turned up in circulation. I was wondering if anyone has any details about the screening process and how tightly guarded that process was.
Thanks!!
It's my understanding they didn't look very long for the bills. imagine every 20 that past through the bank? I doubt many cooperated as the banks got further away from Washington..
The system they used was 33 pages, I believe, of serial numbers on the pages. I think it was 200 on each page.
Agent Carr stated that the money could of easily got through. the numbers were recorded more for prosecution purposes.
So bank employees were expected to manually check the number of every $20 bill that came through the doors?? Yikes. I can't imagine many banks would've been very diligent about this. Perhaps the banks in the immediate area in the time frame immediately following the hijacking. But a bank that's 6 states away 6 months following the hijacking? I just can't imagine an employee taking the time to manually check a list of numbers.
I wonder why the argument that the money was never spent -- or could never be spent -- still seems to retain so much merit?
According to the federal reserve, the average lifespan of a $20 bill is about 8 years (https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-span-of-us-paper-money.htm) (this was data from 2013, so perhaps quite different than data from the 1970s). As bills were taken out of circulation due to wear and tear, I wonder if the reserve performed this screening process for all $20 bills from the years that were used for the Cooper money? Let's say the money never entered a bank until 1975. By then, the banks had stopped the screening process (especially a bank on the other side of the country). A few years later when those bills started to be filtered out of circulation by the federal reserve, what if the serial numbers were not screened then either?
https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-life-span-of-us-paper-money.htm
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Welcome to the show, Check-6.
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As a side note on the money, I developed this tool a few years back...
http://www.check-six.com/lib/DBCooperLoot.htm
I thought that was you :P very cool to have you aboard....
Thank ya... As a further note, I was a member of Tom's team, searching for aviation-related documents and records. While I won't go into any detail, I will say the best evidence , IMHO, didn't make it on the show.
Presently, in my professional life, I am a staff writer for a major aviation organization on the East Coast, as well as commercial pilot, flight instructor, "aviation archaeologist", and so on.
Please share what you can. We're all interested in new insights.
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...I wonder why the argument that the money was never spent -- or could never be spent -- still seems to retain so much merit?
...
It begs the question of what "spent" really means, Raoul. An estimated 40 percent of the world economy takes place in the "black market" world, which is presumed to have its own banking system. This dynamic is not well-reported or understood, but my understanding is that clean money, such as Cooper's ransom, could enter the black market banking system and stay there.
When one considers the amount of illegal activity in the world: drugs, sex trafficking, bribery, guns and weapons, political pay-offs, etc., that's a lot of cash that needs to stay hidden.
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Thank ya... As a further note, I was a member of Tom's team, searching for aviation-related documents and records. While I won't go into any detail, I will say the best evidence , IMHO, didn't make it on the show.
Presently, in my professional life, I am a staff writer for a major aviation organization on the East Coast, as well as commercial pilot, flight instructor, "aviation archaeologist", and so on.
Please share what you can. We're all interested in new insights.
Out of respect for Tom and the whole team, I leave that for him to decide what/when/where to share the insights discovered. He (and, again, the entire team) has put a lot into the effort, and he should be the one to make that call.
Until then...
I am certain it'll all be revealed in due course.
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As a side note on the money, I developed this tool a few years back...
http://www.check-six.com/lib/DBCooperLoot.htm
I thought that was you :P very cool to have you aboard....
Really? You thought? lol
Ok, Vicki told me, I didn't have time to check, or verify the account..... :))
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As a side note on the money, I developed this tool a few years back...
http://www.check-six.com/lib/DBCooperLoot.htm
I thought that was you :P very cool to have you aboard....
Thank ya... As a further note, I was a member of Tom's team, searching for aviation-related documents and records. While I won't go into any detail, I will say the best evidence , IMHO, didn't make it on the show.
Presently, in my professional life, I am a staff writer for a major aviation organization on the East Coast, as well as commercial pilot, flight instructor, "aviation archaeologist", and so on.
well, this is interesting. How many years will it take for Tom to reveal "his evidence", on flight path or anything else, and why the long delay?
I wont even bother to ask you for your opinion(s) on anything given your statement above, but I do hope you understand why some of us sit and wonder, wait and wonder, wonder and wait ... in what started as a simple mandate to "look at the money" back in 2008 but somehow branched out to a review of the whole Cooper case.
I mean for my puzzlement but generally its been my experience when the FBI asks us to look at 'this or that' we stick to that mandate and look at 'this or that'. We dont branch out to review the whole universe of a matter. Example: the guys at PSU, USGS, USCE .... did not issue reports on the flight path - or anything else.
I guess Im just old-fashioned.
I dont know what else to say. O0 :)) Im just one person. I would never pretend to try and replace the whole Philharmonic or claim expertise on every instrument? Congratulations on the universality of "the team". Ive never been to Trump Tower. I hear its a big place. Takes lots of time to get from the door to the Penthouse? Send us a photo or two from the view at the top? :))
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Thank ya... As a further note, I was a member of Tom's team, searching for aviation-related documents and records. While I won't go into any detail, I will say the best evidence , IMHO, didn't make it on the show.
Presently, in my professional life, I am a staff writer for a major aviation organization on the East Coast, as well as commercial pilot, flight instructor, "aviation archaeologist", and so on.
Please share what you can. We're all interested in new insights.
Out of respect for Tom and the whole team, I leave that for him to decide what/when/where to share the insights discovered. He (and, again, the entire team) has put a lot into the effort, and he should be the one to make that call.
Until then...
I am certain it'll all be revealed in due course.
Is "revealed in due course" code for "buy the book?"
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well, this is interesting. How many years will it take for Tom to reveal "his evidence", on flight path or anything else, and why the long delay?
I wont even bother to ask you for your opinion(s) on anything given your statement above, but I do hope you understand why some of us sit and wonder, wait and wonder, wonder and wait ... in what started as a simple mandate to "look at the money" back in 2008 but somehow branched out to a review of the whole Cooper case.
That's a question for Tom. In my estimation, he is looking at the case from a different perspective than most.
I DO have questions, but the suspect's international travel history and time in the "drug industry" help explain the major nag - where did the money go...
My opinion - the evidence against his suspect has strength - stronger than any other DBC suspect I've researched - and merits trial.
But that's not my decision to make - just my opinion. The American justice system will have to "do its thing..."
I'd wager he will be revealing more at the L.A. press conference tomorrow (I won't be in attendance due to work commitment here near DC).
The story is NOT , by any means, over...
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Is "revealed in due course" code for "buy the book?"
That's not a question for me. I placed my pre-order via Amazon today.
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well, this is interesting. How many years will it take for Tom to reveal "his evidence", on flight path or anything else, and why the long delay?
I wont even bother to ask you for your opinion(s) on anything given your statement above, but I do hope you understand why some of us sit and wonder, wait and wonder, wonder and wait ... in what started as a simple mandate to "look at the money" back in 2008 but somehow branched out to a review of the whole Cooper case.
That's a question for Tom. In my estimation, he is looking at the case from a different perspective than most.
I DO have questions, but the suspect's international travel history and time in the "drug industry" help explain the major nag - where did the money go...
My opinion - the evidence against his suspect has strength - stronger than any other DBC suspect I've researched - and merits trial.
But that's not my decision to make - just my opinion. The American justice system will have to "do its thing..."
I'd wager he will be revealing more at the L.A. press conference tomorrow (I won't be in attendance due to work commitment here near DC).
The story is NOT , by any means, over...
There is nothing I can say about gestation periods in species - my grandmother at Vancouver whose family was involved in the Cooper affair lived to be 101. She gave an interview to a number of newspapers with some of her poetry at 100. She shared some of her poetry with Dona at the Ariel Store. None of that has any application here except to note that my grandmother would have advised Tom Kaye to, "Get it in gear son. Life doesn't last forever."!
Yes, had Colbert placed deWinter at Eugene instead of Corvallis sleeping on couches, his case might have gone a different direction with different results we all seek. It's all in the record documented by FAA and FBI reports. Cases sometimes hinge on small insignificant pieces of evidence, small facts ignored. Or, maybe deWinter was in Corvallis while DB Cooper was in Eugene ... the week before. But we will never know so there is no rush on Tom's results whatever! 2045 would be fine! :))
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Some have claimed over the years that ‘Cooper’ pulled off a victimless crime. Victimless crime?
Did ‘Cooper’ through his actions reveal to members of the public what was in 1971 considered to be a military secret, that being the jump capability of a 727 and the specific flight parameters required to do so? If I am not mistaken, that is Treason. Did he put military troops and operations at risk through his selfish actions? Did anyone have a loved one come home in a casket as a result of this transgression of trust?
What about the Flight Crew, passengers, and Ground Ops during the crisis? What about the countless man-hours and resources dedicated to the case over the decades wasted on a lowlife treasonous scumbag like him? What other grief has he doled-out in his miserable existence? My educated guess is there is a trail of destruction behind this greasy piece of human fecal matter.
Think about the ‘Folk Hero’ on Memorial Day.
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I don't think it's a "victimless" crime at all. Flo was looking under her car for a bomb fearing Cooper was going to get her..imagine if the passengers found out before the plane landed?
Perhaps this was a reason why nobody cared to support the Ariel Tavern. should anyone really be celebrating a guy who threatened to blowup a plane full of passengers? personally, I don't have a problem with that, but others might. the Tavern has it's own set of followers that are local to Ariel. a handful drift in from the outside.
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Some have claimed over the years that ‘Cooper’ pulled off a victimless crime. Victimless crime?
Did ‘Cooper’ through his actions reveal to members of the public what was in 1971 considered to be a military secret, that being the jump capability of a 727 and the specific flight parameters required to do so? If I am not mistaken, that is Treason. Did he put military troops and operations at risk through his selfish actions? Did anyone have a loved one come home in a casket as a result of this transgression of trust?
What about the Flight Crew, passengers, and Ground Ops during the crisis? What about the countless man-hours and resources dedicated to the case over the decades wasted on a lowlife treasonous scumbag like him? What other grief has he doled-out in his miserable existence? My educated guess is there is a trail of destruction behind this greasy piece of human fecal matter.
Think about the ‘Folk Hero’ on Memorial Day.
Okay, 'Spector, you're angry. I get that. But why are you here? What attracts you to the DB Cooper story?
Further, why do you think others celebrate Cooper as a Folk Hero?
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I don't think it's a "victimless" crime at all. Flo was looking under her car for a bomb fearing Cooper was going to get her..imagine if the passengers found out before the plane landed?
Perhaps this was a reason why nobody cared to support the Ariel Tavern. should anyone really be celebrating a guy who threatened to blowup a plane full of passengers? personally, I don't have a problem with that, but others might. the Tavern has it's own set of followers that are local to Ariel. a handful drift in from the outside.
Yes, by all accounts there were lasting impacts on the victims closest to the event.
Do you suppose the terrorist hijacker used “Dan Cooper” as his alias, because the initials DC rhyme with VC? That is who he was working for when he pulled off that stunt letting the world know about the capabilities of all those 727’s plying the airways in SEA at that time. Perhaps we should start calling ‘Cooper’ Charlie. It would be another good reason for him to hide in Canada.
I guess he may have been a ‘Folk Hero’ after all ---- to the NVA.
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Maybe this November we should move the DB Cooper Festival to Ho Chi Minh City. I hear that Ariel will not be hosting the annual Thanksgiving Day celebration any more.
Does this make Robert Blevins the Jane Fonda of Norjak?
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Maybe this November we should move the DB Cooper Festival to Ho Chi Minh City. I hear that Ariel will not be hosting the annual Thanksgiving Day celebration any more.
Does this make Robert Blevins the Jane Fonda of Norjak?
I believe that's only this year, but you need to check with Ms. Fonda :)) :)) :))
Don't confuse Bobby with ownership of the Tavern...
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?
Thoughts?
Most, but not all, of my questions could be put into categories. However, I think a case can be made for having a Q&A thread like this so people can go to one place to seek answers to specific questions without changing the trajectories of existing threads. It's something I noticed on DZ, there would be a few pages of good information, and it would get derailed by something like a question or inane comment and the discussion stops and devolves to meaninglessness.
How about a FAQ category with keyword search? Facts of the case should be at the top. Then branch out to the often-repeated information that turns up so much of the time. Meyer
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The problems I'm seeing in this topic area is questions that could be asked on the existing topics. Sailshaw could of easily asked his question under the Flight path thread. it's hard to narrow down a basic question while we have existing areas where they can be asked already in place. perhaps this topic should be removed, or locked for the time being?
Thoughts?
Most, but not all, of my questions could be put into categories. However, I think a case can be made for having a Q&A thread like this so people can go to one place to seek answers to specific questions without changing the trajectories of existing threads. It's something I noticed on DZ, there would be a few pages of good information, and it would get derailed by something like a question or inane comment and the discussion stops and devolves to meaninglessness.
How about a FAQ category with keyword search? Facts of the case should be at the top. Then branch out to the often-repeated information that turns up so much of the time. Meyer
I have a feeling the software that runs this website determines the Search engine, which is probably generic and not changeable?
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I will look on SMF's website and see if they have any mods for the search engines....
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Rackstraw says that he had lunch and a model airplane in that paper bag he brought onboard with him
I removed the phone number attached to your attachment. please don't post any phone numbers on this forum.
Shutter
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What value does the post above this one give?
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What was for lunch, DG?
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Heres's a general question about the case: What happened to the briefcase?
That is something I have thought about occasionally. This one thing seems to get passed over a lot. Often, it's briefly mentioned that Cooper must have taken it with him and it's with the parachute and/or money and/or Cooper himself.
What happened to the briefcase? Answer: It's still out there! I believe it's somewhere in the vicinity of the placard find and where Cooper allegedly jumped (at 8:13), on V-23. So, Jerry Thomas needs to assemble a search crew, get me help him, and then we need to go look for it, find it, and be forever remembered in Cooper folklore. But wait.....I'm getting a little carried away and ahead of myself.
Reason with me: If he really did have a bomb -- the good stuff that goes boom and kills everybody -- then he surely wouldn't take it with him. He most likely would dis-assemble it as harmless as was possible, then he would chuck it out the back door. If it wasn't really a bomb, just road flares, say, he'd keep the flares (for building a fire and keeping warm in some cave after the landing) and chuck the briefcase -- because it has already served its purpose and it would only be dead weight from here on.
But...what if Cooper took the briefcase with him? He's already got a back chute, the X chute, and a bag of money attached to his waste. He's already bogged down. Question: did he just hang on to the briefcase by its handle or did he wrap his arms around it and hold it close on the jump? Either way, in my mind's eye, he wouldn't have been able to hang on to it. If he was hanging on to the briefcase by the handle, that 200 mph wind would have ripped the handle right off the briefcase on the jump, and the briefcase would go flailing violently into the wind and darkness. If he was holding the briefcase close to his person, same result (I have no data to back up this claim -- I once saw a demo of guy trying to hold on to a pumpkin in the back seat of a car hitting a wall at 40 mph -- it was impossible to hold on to the pumpkin. A different kind of energy here with the jump, but you get the idea -- all that energy all at once -- would he have been able to hang on to the briefcase? In my humble, non-expert opinion, no).
Besides, the well-being of the briefcase would not have been his top priority -- he was more worried about surviving the jump, getting the chute to open, not going into a violent spin, and not losing all that money. So, either way, the briefcase most likely went flying into the darkness, violently thrown about by the wind.
In short, no matter what Cooper decided to do with the briefcase -- chuck it before the jump or take it with him and lose it on the jump -- the briefcase went flying into the darkness, violently tossed about by the violent winds. It most likely occurred somewhere close to the placard location and when Cooper allegedly jumped -- times we know the aft door had to be open and up to the moment he jumped. The briefcase is still out there. I think it will be found some day -- if it's not hopelessly buried under thick briar bushes at the bottom of some canyon -- thereby rendering it "un-findable."
A big to do about not much....
Meyer
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Dummy chute, and briefcase is anybody's guess. I would think if he tied it to the handle, it wouldn't survive. as for the bomb being real, I don't think so. in the crew notes he made it appear that electronics could detonate the bomb. that would of not been true since he didn't have the circuit complete, and nothing electronic could of set it off.
Hunters found the placard, you would think they would of found the briefcase if it was nearby? they claim to take care of the area ridding it of trash. it also could of broke apart on impact, and someone discarded it without knowing what it was?
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Also consider:
Five strands of parachute cord are missing from the reserve chute in the evidence collection. That's about 75 feet of rope. FBI docs vary on their accounting - one says 2 cords, another says 3, all according to Citizen Sleuths.
So, did Coop tie everything into ONE BIG BUNDLE? Making it easier for his extraction team to find? Only needing one tracking device, too!
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Dummy chute, and briefcase is anybody's guess. I would think if he tied it to the handle, it wouldn't survive. as for the bomb being real, I don't think so. in the crew notes he made it appear that electronics could detonate the bomb. that would of not been true since he didn't have the circuit complete, and nothing electronic could of set it off.
Hunters found the placard, you would think they would of found the briefcase if it was nearby? they claim to take care of the area ridding it of trash. it also could of broke apart on impact, and someone discarded it without knowing what it was?
I am not assuming the bomb was not real. Possible, but we really don't know. If he had a real explosive, like a stick of dynamite or TNT or whatever -- I have no expertise here -- wouldn't that still be a hazard, without electronics? If there's a possibility of explosion, it seems he'd want to chuck it (and therefore the briefcase) asap. Also, the placard and briefcase may not necessarily be close to each other. Then again, they could be and they just haven't found the briefcase because it's embedded so deeply in the woods or briar patches or it's at the bottom of an inaccessible canyon. Waiting even just a couple of minutes between placard and briefcase exits from the plane would seemingly put them miles apart. If it broke apart, the contents inside might be close by. Wouldn't it be something if it was found? Any morsel, anything, something in the way of evidence might perk things up around here.
Meyer
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Also consider:
So, did Coop tie everything into ONE BIG BUNDLE? Making it easier for his extraction team to find? Only needing one tracking device, too!
You mean the money bag, X chute, and briefcase, all tied together? Or just the X chute and briefcase tied to his torso, and the money bag hanging from his waist? Any way you do it, seems like it would be pretty bulky and awkward. Why would he take the briefcase if it had already served its purpose, it didn't hold any, or much of, the money, it was bulky, and it may have had a potentially dangerous device -- for Cooper it just wasn't worth the risk. I say he chucked it out the back door soon after the aft stairs deployed. As for a tracking device -- if I read 377's post correctly, he said pocket size tracking devices were available back in 1971. It would have been easy to place one in an inside pocket.
Meyer
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Also consider:
So, did Coop tie everything into ONE BIG BUNDLE? Making it easier for his extraction team to find? Only needing one tracking device, too!
You mean the money bag, X chute, and briefcase, all tied together? Or just the X chute and briefcase tied to his torso, and the money bag hanging from his waist? Any way you do it, seems like it would be pretty bulky and awkward. Why would he take the briefcase if it had already served its purpose, it didn't hold any, or much of, the money, it was bulky, and it may have had a potentially dangerous device -- for Cooper it just wasn't worth the risk. I say he chucked it out the back door soon after the aft stairs deployed. As for a tracking device -- if I read 377's post correctly, he said pocket size tracking devices were available back in 1971. It would have been easy to place one in an inside pocket.
Meyer
Pinger type devices were available in 1971 and used in military parachutes in SEA. ARS aircraft could home in on those pingers, and so could everyone on the other side.
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Also consider:
So, did Coop tie everything into ONE BIG BUNDLE? Making it easier for his extraction team to find? Only needing one tracking device, too!
You mean the money bag, X chute, and briefcase, all tied together? Or just the X chute and briefcase tied to his torso, and the money bag hanging from his waist? Any way you do it, seems like it would be pretty bulky and awkward. Why would he take the briefcase if it had already served its purpose, it didn't hold any, or much of, the money, it was bulky, and it may have had a potentially dangerous device -- for Cooper it just wasn't worth the risk. I say he chucked it out the back door soon after the aft stairs deployed. As for a tracking device -- if I read 377's post correctly, he said pocket size tracking devices were available back in 1971. It would have been easy to place one in an inside pocket.
Meyer
Pinger type devices were available in 1971 and used in military parachutes in SEA. ARS aircraft could home in on those pingers, and so could everyone on the other side.
Beacons were placed in McCoy's chutes by Perry Steven at Steven Paraloft in Oakland. McCoy mentioned Perry's loft as a place to obtain chutes. Perry taught me how to skydive in 1968.
He is legend in skydiving, having invented The Stevens Cutaway System that automatically activated the reserve chute using a static line. Perry's invention saved many lives.
I am guessing Perry was given URT 21 or similar 243.0 MHz swept tone locator beacons to pack. McCoy, probably suspecting as much, tossed these two chutes enroute to his exit point. It tricked trackers monitoring the beacon frequency into thinking he had jumped.
If they were military rigs modified for sport jumps the beacons were likely turned on when concealed. They are normally activated by a lanyard that pulls a switch to activate them upon ejection or manually if its a non ejection bailout. Sport rigs don't have the hardware for auto or manual activation of a packed beacon. Units from the 1971 era were "dumb" beacons, no altitude sensing hardware and no position data. They were either on or off, no other state. Beacons were located by rescue acft using UHF ADFs.
http://www.greenradio.de/e_urt21.htm
377
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Heres's a general question about the case: What happened to the briefcase?
That is something I have thought about occasionally. This one thing seems to get passed over a lot. Often, it's briefly mentioned that Cooper must have taken it with him and it's with the parachute and/or money and/or Cooper himself.
What happened to the briefcase? Answer: It's still out there! I believe it's somewhere in the vicinity of the placard find and where Cooper allegedly jumped (at 8:13), on V-23. So, Jerry Thomas needs to assemble a search crew, get me help him, and then we need to go look for it, find it, and be forever remembered in Cooper folklore. But wait.....I'm getting a little carried away and ahead of myself.
Reason with me: If he really did have a bomb -- the good stuff that goes boom and kills everybody -- then he surely wouldn't take it with him. He most likely would dis-assemble it as harmless as was possible, then he would chuck it out the back door. If it wasn't really a bomb, just road flares, say, he'd keep the flares (for building a fire and keeping warm in some cave after the landing) and chuck the briefcase -- because it has already served its purpose and it would only be dead weight from here on.
But...what if Cooper took the briefcase with him? He's already got a back chute, the X chute, and a bag of money attached to his waste. He's already bogged down. Question: did he just hang on to the briefcase by its handle or did he wrap his arms around it and hold it close on the jump? Either way, in my mind's eye, he wouldn't have been able to hang on to it. If he was hanging on to the briefcase by the handle, that 200 mph wind would have ripped the handle right off the briefcase on the jump, and the briefcase would go flailing violently into the wind and darkness. If he was holding the briefcase close to his person, same result (I have no data to back up this claim -- I once saw a demo of guy trying to hold on to a pumpkin in the back seat of a car hitting a wall at 40 mph -- it was impossible to hold on to the pumpkin. A different kind of energy here with the jump, but you get the idea -- all that energy all at once -- would he have been able to hang on to the briefcase? In my humble, non-expert opinion, no).
Besides, the well-being of the briefcase would not have been his top priority -- he was more worried about surviving the jump, getting the chute to open, not going into a violent spin, and not losing all that money. So, either way, the briefcase most likely went flying into the darkness, violently thrown about by the wind.
In short, no matter what Cooper decided to do with the briefcase -- chuck it before the jump or take it with him and lose it on the jump -- the briefcase went flying into the darkness, violently tossed about by the violent winds. It most likely occurred somewhere close to the placard location and when Cooper allegedly jumped -- times we know the aft door had to be open and up to the moment he jumped. The briefcase is still out there. I think it will be found some day -- if it's not hopelessly buried under thick briar bushes at the bottom of some canyon -- thereby rendering it "un-findable."
A big to do about not much....
Meyer
Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime. He demands his handwritten note back from the cockpit, wears sunglasses for most of the flight, retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace. Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed. Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag). He could tape his shoes to his legs, tape the briefcase to his chest, and seal off his pant legs and sleeves from the cold and rain. You have to use your imagination and plan like a man who was intelligent and serious to understand the means Cooper may have used. Yet, since he had 30 minutes alone in the aft section of the 727, no one realizes how well this man has prepared. This deception is one of the reasons that after 45 years, no one knows what really happened. (P.S. He escaped with the money).
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Heres's a general question about the case: What happened to the briefcase?
Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime. He demands his handwritten note back from the cockpit, wears sunglasses for most of the flight, retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace. Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed. Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag). He could tape his shoes to his legs, tape the briefcase to his chest, and seal off his pant legs and sleeves from the cold and rain. You have to use your imagination and plan like a man who was intelligent and serious to understand the means Cooper may have used. Yet, since he had 30 minutes alone in the aft section of the 727, no one realizes how well this man has prepared. This deception is one of the reasons that after 45 years, no one knows what really happened. (P.S. He escaped with the money).
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Diligent about everything? How about the tip he offered Tina? How about the tie he left behind? How about the 8 cigarette butts he left behind? How about not having a clue about how to get the aft stairs to deploy in flight? That doesn't sound all that diligent to me, not to mention the little buzz he must have had from the cocktails he drank. I don't think he was as careful and thorough as people believe. There is a distinct possibility that he was just plain lucky in some instances. Lady Lucky smiled down on him a couple of times for sure. His genius, his ability to deceive and outsmart everyone, his label as a folk hero -- well, it's all helped to create the urban legend we know as DB Cooper.
On the DZ Forum long ago, I remember some discussion about the necessity of being centered, having good center of gravity, on a jump and how important that was to preventing spin on a jump (I do not profess expertise on this topic, however). If he duct taped the briefcase and shoes to his person -- along with the two parachutes and money bag hanging from his waist -- seems like he'd be really bogged down, unbalanced, without the proper center of gravity -- making the jump more challenging and dangerous than it already was. I think he chucked the briefcase -- it was bulky and awkward, it had already served its purpose. It's still out there. In one piece? Maybe, maybe not.
If Cooper was a highly trained special ops, creme de la creme, kind of guy -- and I think he was -- then he spent much more than a month preparing. He spent a whole career honing specialized skills. He was probably the best of the best at what he did.
Meyer Louie
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Heres's a general question about the case: What happened to the briefcase?
Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime. He demands his handwritten note back from the cockpit, wears sunglasses for most of the flight, retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace. Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed. Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag). He could tape his shoes to his legs, tape the briefcase to his chest, and seal off his pant legs and sleeves from the cold and rain. You have to use your imagination and plan like a man who was intelligent and serious to understand the means Cooper may have used. Yet, since he had 30 minutes alone in the aft section of the 727, no one realizes how well this man has prepared. This deception is one of the reasons that after 45 years, no one knows what really happened. (P.S. He escaped with the money).
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Diligent about everything? How about the tip he offered Tina? How about the tie he left behind? How about the 8 cigarette butts he left behind? How about not having a clue about how to get the aft stairs to deploy in flight? That doesn't sound all that diligent to me, not to mention the little buzz he must have had from the cocktails he drank. I don't think he was as careful and thorough as people believe. There is a distinct possibility that he was just plain lucky in some instances. Lady Lucky smiled down on him a couple of times for sure. His genius, his ability to deceive and outsmart everyone, his label as a folk hero -- well, it's all helped to create the urban legend we know as DB Cooper.
On the DZ Forum long ago, I remember some discussion about the necessity of being centered, having good center of gravity, on a jump and how important that was to preventing spin on a jump (I do not profess expertise on this topic, however). If he duct taped the briefcase and shoes to his person -- along with the two parachutes and money bag hanging from his waist -- seems like he'd be really bogged down, unbalanced, without the proper center of gravity -- making the jump more challenging and dangerous than it already was. I think he chucked the briefcase -- it was bulky and awkward, it had already served its purpose. It's still out there. In one piece? Maybe, maybe not.
If Cooper was a highly trained special ops, creme de la creme, kind of guy -- and I think he was -- then he spent much more than a month preparing. He spent a whole career honing specialized skills. He was probably the best of the best at what he did.
Meyer Louie
Of course this is the center of the debate - who and what was Cooper. Maybe the correct answer is: some of all of the above depending on how you look at it. ;)
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Heres's a general question about the case: What happened to the briefcase?
Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime. He demands his handwritten note back from the cockpit, wears sunglasses for most of the flight, retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace. Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed. Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag). He could tape his shoes to his legs, tape the briefcase to his chest, and seal off his pant legs and sleeves from the cold and rain. You have to use your imagination and plan like a man who was intelligent and serious to understand the means Cooper may have used. Yet, since he had 30 minutes alone in the aft section of the 727, no one realizes how well this man has prepared. This deception is one of the reasons that after 45 years, no one knows what really happened. (P.S. He escaped with the money).
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Diligent about everything? How about the tip he offered Tina? How about the tie he left behind? How about the 8 cigarette butts he left behind? How about not having a clue about how to get the aft stairs to deploy in flight? That doesn't sound all that diligent to me, not to mention the little buzz he must have had from the cocktails he drank. I don't think he was as careful and thorough as people believe. There is a distinct possibility that he was just plain lucky in some instances. Lady Lucky smiled down on him a couple of times for sure. His genius, his ability to deceive and outsmart everyone, his label as a folk hero -- well, it's all helped to create the urban legend we know as DB Cooper.
On the DZ Forum long ago, I remember some discussion about the necessity of being centered, having good center of gravity, on a jump and how important that was to preventing spin on a jump (I do not profess expertise on this topic, however). If he duct taped the briefcase and shoes to his person -- along with the two parachutes and money bag hanging from his waist -- seems like he'd be really bogged down, unbalanced, without the proper center of gravity -- making the jump more challenging and dangerous than it already was. I think he chucked the briefcase -- it was bulky and awkward, it had already served its purpose. It's still out there. In one piece? Maybe, maybe not.
If Cooper was a highly trained special ops, creme de la creme, kind of guy -- and I think he was -- then he spent much more than a month preparing. He spent a whole career honing specialized skills. He was probably the best of the best at what he did.
Meyer Louie
Actually the issue back then, I believe, was not center of gravity on a jump, but whether or not Cooper was 'asymmetrical" on the jump. If I remember the discussion back then, being asymmetrical would cause concern for the possibility of going into an uncontrollable spin on the jump. It's been a long time, I probably should go back to the forum and research that topic. As soon as I can.......
Meyer
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Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime. He demands his handwritten note back from the cockpit, wears sunglasses for most of the flight, retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace. Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed. Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag). He could tape his shoes to his legs, tape the briefcase to his chest, and seal off his pant legs and sleeves from the cold and rain. You have to use your imagination and plan like a man who was intelligent and serious to understand the means Cooper may have used. Yet, since he had 30 minutes alone in the aft section of the 727, no one realizes how well this man has prepared. This deception is one of the reasons that after 45 years, no one knows what really happened. (P.S. He escaped with the money).
[/quote]
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Diligent about everything? How about the tip he offered Tina? How about the tie he left behind? How about the 8 cigarette butts he left behind? How about not having a clue about how to get the aft stairs to deploy in flight? That doesn't sound all that diligent to me, not to mention the little buzz he must have had from the cocktails he drank. I don't think he was as careful and thorough as people believe. There is a distinct possibility that he was just plain lucky in some instances. Lady Lucky smiled down on him a couple of times for sure. His genius, his ability to deceive and outsmart everyone, his label as a folk hero -- well, it's all helped to create the urban legend we know as DB Cooper.
On the DZ Forum long ago, I remember some discussion about the necessity of being centered, having good center of gravity, on a jump and how important that was to preventing spin on a jump (I do not profess expertise on this topic, however). If he duct taped the briefcase and shoes to his person -- along with the two parachutes and money bag hanging from his waist -- seems like he'd be really bogged down, unbalanced, without the proper center of gravity -- making the jump more challenging and dangerous than it already was. I think he chucked the briefcase -- it was bulky and awkward, it had already served its purpose. It's still out there. In one piece? Maybe, maybe not.
If Cooper was a highly trained special ops, creme de la creme, kind of guy -- and I think he was -- then he spent much more than a month preparing. He spent a whole career honing specialized skills. He was probably the best of the best at what he did.
Meyer Louie
[/quote]
Diligent about everything? How about the tip he offered Tina?
This to me just shows that Cooper is not really after the money. His real motivation is his grudge. He probably had coated his fingertips with something and wasn't leaving traceable fingerprints.
How about the tie he left behind? How about the 8 cigarette butts he left behind?
I think the tie was a mistake, he meant to take it with him but probably got caught up in all the other preparations and forgot it. In 1971, there was no such thing as DNA evidence and electron microscopes in law enforcement, so if neither item could produce fingerprints, he wasn't too concerned.
How about not having a clue about how to get the aft stairs to deploy in flight? That doesn't sound all that diligent to me, not to mention the little buzz he must have had from the cocktails he drank. I don't think he was as careful and thorough as people believe.
Larry Carr states that Cooper ordered one drink, a bourbon and soda, and spills half of it. He doesn't consider that to be a lot of alcohol over the 5 hours Cooper was on the plane. Cooper obviously knew that the aft stairs could be deployed in flight, but somehow believed they were controlled through the cockpit. A mistake that didn't hinder his objectives.
I will disagree with you though and say that Cooper was extremely thorough (but not perfect), and his knowledge wasn't infinite. Luck plays a role in most everything in life, and I can't deny that Dan Cooper had luck on his side on that fateful evening.
Again, my contention is that Cooper is an engineer (per the Citizen Sleuths and their analysis of the metal particles on his tie). He also holds at least an instrument rating with a private pilot's license (because of his knowledge of flight operations). I believe he had military training, but probably hadn't made a skydiving attempt in years. Therefore, he seems informed about skydiving, but certainly doesn't appear to be an expert.
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Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime. He demands his handwritten note back from the cockpit, wears sunglasses for most of the flight, retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace. Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed. Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag). He could tape his shoes to his legs, tape the briefcase to his chest, and seal off his pant legs and sleeves from the cold and rain. You have to use your imagination and plan like a man who was intelligent and serious to understand the means Cooper may have used. Yet, since he had 30 minutes alone in the aft section of the 727, no one realizes how well this man has prepared. This deception is one of the reasons that after 45 years, no one knows what really happened. (P.S. He escaped with the money).
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Diligent about everything? How about the tip he offered Tina? How about the tie he left behind? How about the 8 cigarette butts he left behind? How about not having a clue about how to get the aft stairs to deploy in flight? That doesn't sound all that diligent to me, not to mention the little buzz he must have had from the cocktails he drank. I don't think he was as careful and thorough as people believe. There is a distinct possibility that he was just plain lucky in some instances. Lady Lucky smiled down on him a couple of times for sure. His genius, his ability to deceive and outsmart everyone, his label as a folk hero -- well, it's all helped to create the urban legend we know as DB Cooper.
On the DZ Forum long ago, I remember some discussion about the necessity of being centered, having good center of gravity, on a jump and how important that was to preventing spin on a jump (I do not profess expertise on this topic, however). If he duct taped the briefcase and shoes to his person -- along with the two parachutes and money bag hanging from his waist -- seems like he'd be really bogged down, unbalanced, without the proper center of gravity -- making the jump more challenging and dangerous than it already was. I think he chucked the briefcase -- it was bulky and awkward, it had already served its purpose. It's still out there. In one piece? Maybe, maybe not.
If Cooper was a highly trained special ops, creme de la creme, kind of guy -- and I think he was -- then he spent much more than a month preparing. He spent a whole career honing specialized skills. He was probably the best of the best at what he did.
Meyer Louie
[/quote]
Diligent about everything? How about the tip he offered Tina?
This to me just shows that Cooper is not really after the money. His real motivation is his grudge. He probably had coated his fingertips with something and wasn't leaving traceable fingerprints.
How about the tie he left behind? How about the 8 cigarette butts he left behind?
I think the tie was a mistake, he meant to take it with him but probably got caught up in all the other preparations and forgot it. In 1971, there was no such thing as DNA evidence and electron microscopes in law enforcement, so if neither item could produce fingerprints, he wasn't too concerned.
How about not having a clue about how to get the aft stairs to deploy in flight? That doesn't sound all that diligent to me, not to mention the little buzz he must have had from the cocktails he drank. I don't think he was as careful and thorough as people believe.
Larry Carr states that Cooper ordered one drink, a bourbon and soda, and spills half of it. He doesn't consider that to be a lot of alcohol over the 5 hours Cooper was on the plane. Cooper obviously knew that the aft stairs could be deployed in flight, but somehow believed they were controlled through the cockpit. A mistake that didn't hinder his objectives.
I will disagree with you though and say that Cooper was extremely thorough (but not perfect), and his knowledge wasn't infinite. Luck plays a role in most everything in life, and I can't deny that Dan Cooper had luck on his side on that fateful evening.
Again, my contention is that Cooper is an engineer (per the Citizen Sleuths and their analysis of the metal particles on his tie). He also holds at least an instrument rating with a private pilot's license (because of his knowledge of flight operations). I believe he had military training, but probably hadn't made a skydiving attempt in years. Therefore, he seems informed about skydiving, but certainly doesn't appear to be an expert.
[/quote]
[ He probably had coated his fingertips with something and wasn't leaving traceable fingerprints.]
What coating? Duralast? Duralast-Extra Strength ? :)) ?
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[ He probably had coated his fingertips with something and wasn't leaving traceable fingerprints.]
What coating? Duralast? Duralast-Extra Strength ? :)) ?
Model airplane glue would probably do just fine. If you built model airplanes as a youngster prior to 1971, you know that glue gets on your fingers and is difficult to get off.
Cooper getting his original note back from the cockpit probably included concerns about his handwriting being identifiable as well as the note paper being evidence and maybe having his finger prints on it also.
But overall, Cooper was plainly negligent about leaving evidence behind.
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Meyer wrote:
"Actually the issue back then, I believe, was not center of gravity on a jump, but whether or not Cooper was 'asymmetrical" on the jump. If I remember the discussion back then, being asymmetrical would cause concern for the possibility of going into an uncontrollable spin on the jump. It's been a long time, I probably should go back to the forum and research that topic. As soon as I can......."
I jumped with asymmetrical gear, a big leg mounted pouch carrying radio telemetry gear. It definitely took some body position compensating to stay stable but it was doable. All bets are off off though if it was nighttime and you didn't have a good visual horizon and heading reference. Although many will dispute it, you can't feel your way into stable freefall any more than you can feel your way into stable IFR flight. You need a visual horizon and heading reference.
The easy solution, and one which I think Cooper would have used had he known the details of the Thailand 727 jumps, would be to face forward on the lower part of the stairs, pull the ripcord and be pulled off the stairs into a stable gentle "squidding" canopy opening. No stability worries, easy as pie.
377
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Meyer Louie You say: "If Cooper was a highly trained special ops, creme de la creme, kind of guy -- and I think he was -- then he spent much more than a month preparing. He spent a whole career honing specialized skills. He was probably the best of the best at what he did."
I say: "Sheridan Peterson who is DB Cooper and the proof is his FLAW in his alibi to the FBI that he was delivering one of his two children born in Nepal. The public records available from persopo.com show that Peterson's two children were not even born in the same year as Norjak (1971) as the son was born in 1970 (the year before Norjak) and the daughter in 1972 (the year after Norjak). Anyway, Sheridan was planning Norjak when he was at my home for a month and that was 9 years before Norjak. He was pumping me for all that I knew as a Boeing Engineer about the 727 aftsirstairs and how they worked. I finally told him how to get a job at Boeing even though there was a hiring freeze at the time and to work in the "Handbooks and Manuals Group" (located in the 9-101 building at the Development Center in Seattle. He did get the job shortly after leaving my home and could find out all he needed about the 727 aftstairs. So, this means that he was planning the Norjak caper for at least 9 years and covered as much as he needed to "do the job" and get away with the perfect crime and fool the FBI guys."
The cover-up of the Seattle FBI (by closing the case) looks a lot like the FBI cover-up of Hillary Clinton and in both cases looks like "Obstruction of Justice" and failure on the part of the FBI to do their job and made us look like a "Banana Republic Country". A lot of the same kinds of goings on in both cases (typical of how the FBI works now?). Do they think we are that stupid and they can cover-up and not do their job?
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Sailshaw wrote: "FBI cover-up of Hillary Clinton..."
FBI hasn't been doing HC any favors of late.
Even Trump agrees.
Sheridan's alleged lie about birth dates doesn't prove he was DBC. I do not believe a jury would convict Sheridan on the evidence that has been presented so far. His strikingly blue eye color doesn't match the witness descriptions (brown) and there is no evidence that he used colored contacts.
If I represented him I would move for a pretrial dismissal based on the FBI's spoliation of possibly exculpatory evidence (cig butts) and their failure to properly preserve, control custody, and prevent contamination of other evidence (tie) etc. Failing that I'd bet I could get a jury to acquit. The evidentiary standard for a guilty verdict in a criminal trial is proof beyond a reasonable doubt, NOT preponderance of evidence (the civil standard).
No way could that standard be met with regards to Peterson based on the evidence that has been produced so far.
Sheridan sure had ALL the skills needed, but there is a huge difference between a technically qualified DBC candidate and a person who can be convicted of the NORJACK crimes.
377
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Pic of asymmetrical gear I jumped.
377
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Nicky, the three of us have assembled a rough chart of former collaborators and crime-partners. Because you've been on Rackstraw longer, we'd love to run it by you, see if you feel we're on the right track.
I don't want to share the details on the blog -- you up for a quick email?
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Pic of asymmetrical gear I jumped.
377
What's the maximum amount of weight you've jumped with? And sort of related, how much gear do smoke jumpers carry with them?
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[ He probably had coated his fingertips with something and wasn't leaving traceable fingerprints.]
What coating? Duralast? Duralast-Extra Strength ? :)) ?
Model airplane glue would probably do just fine. If you built model airplanes as a youngster prior to 1971, you know that glue gets on your fingers and is difficult to get off.
Cooper getting his original note back from the cockpit probably included concerns about his handwriting being identifiable as well as the note paper being evidence and maybe having his finger prints on it also.
But overall, Cooper was plainly negligent about leaving evidence behind.
More than that, if Cooper was an engineer, formally trained and savvy about technical/forensic things ... say chemistry, basic science, physics, engineering, and the like ... wouldn't he have had some appreciation for the evolving times he himself was living in? By 1960 the whole world was literally set if not involved in, a world-wide technical Revolution! The Cold War. Sputnik. WWII leading to Korea and Vietnam. Most people's lives were knee deep in the technical revolution breaking with all of the social issues that generated including the whole spat over Vietnam. How could Cooper escape that?
A savvy technical person would have left nothing behind! Unless he was reckless or deaf, dumb, and blind. Or didn't care - his very hijacking is a concomitant part of the Social Revolution he himself is fostering on Flight 305! :))
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Don't know about smoke jumper payloads. I've jumped with about 25 lbs of stuff in addn to my rig. The weight isn't the problem, although it makes landings tricker, it's the aero drag asymmetry that messes things up in freefall. I could probably handle another 75 lbs if the payload pack was symmetrical. More weight makes for a higher speed landing but your canopy glide angle (dictated by L/D) remains unchanged.
377
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Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime.
This is your original contention, Mr. Rollins. I cited several examples where this statement can't possibly be true.
wears sunglasses for most of the flight,
There was a brief time where he did NOT wear his sunglasses. Some people saw him at that time. Diligent about maintaining his identity? I'd think he would have never taken off his sunglasses and would have never allowed anyone to see his eyes and eye color. Again, it begs the question, just how diligent was he?
retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace.
Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
Be assured that I am not assured that this actually happened.
I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed.
Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag).
If he had duct tape, I would think he would have used it to seal up the money bag, rather than going to all that trouble of cutting parachute chord and using it to secure the bag.
He could tape his shoes to his legs, tape the briefcase to his chest, and seal off his pant legs and sleeves from the cold and rain. You have to use your imagination and plan like a man who was intelligent and serious to understand the means Cooper may have used. Yet, since he had 30 minutes alone in the aft section of the 727, no one realizes how well this man has prepared. This deception is one of the reasons that after 45 years, no one knows what really happened. (P.S. He escaped with the money).
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Diligent about everything? How about the tip he offered Tina? How about the tie he left behind? How about the 8 cigarette butts he left behind? How about not having a clue about how to get the aft stairs to deploy in flight? That doesn't sound all that diligent to me, not to mention the little buzz he must have had from the cocktails he drank. I don't think he was as careful and thorough as people believe. There is a distinct possibility that he was just plain lucky in some instances. Lady Lucky smiled down on him a couple of times for sure. His genius, his ability to deceive and outsmart everyone, his label as a folk hero -- well, it's all helped to create the urban legend we know as DB Cooper.
On the DZ Forum long ago, I remember some discussion about the necessity of being centered, having good center of gravity, on a jump and how important that was to preventing spin on a jump (I do not profess expertise on this topic, however). If he duct taped the briefcase and shoes to his person -- along with the two parachutes and money bag hanging from his waist -- seems like he'd be really bogged down, unbalanced, without the proper center of gravity -- making the jump more challenging and dangerous than it already was. I think he chucked the briefcase -- it was bulky and awkward, it had already served its purpose. It's still out there. In one piece? Maybe, maybe not.
If Cooper was a highly trained special ops, creme de la creme, kind of guy -- and I think he was -- then he spent much more than a month preparing. He spent a whole career honing specialized skills. He was probably the best of the best at what he did.
Meyer Louie
[/quote]
Diligent about everything? How about the tip he offered Tina?
This to me just shows that Cooper is not really after the money. His real motivation is his grudge. He probably had coated his fingertips with something and wasn't leaving traceable fingerprints.
How about the tie he left behind? How about the 8 cigarette butts he left behind?
I think the tie was a mistake, he meant to take it with him but probably got caught up in all the other preparations and forgot it. In 1971, there was no such thing as DNA evidence and electron microscopes in law enforcement, so if neither item could produce fingerprints, he wasn't too concerned.
How about not having a clue about how to get the aft stairs to deploy in flight? That doesn't sound all that diligent to me, not to mention the little buzz he must have had from the cocktails he drank. I don't think he was as careful and thorough as people believe.
Larry Carr states that Cooper ordered one drink, a bourbon and soda, and spills half of it. He doesn't consider that to be a lot of alcohol over the 5 hours Cooper was on the plane. Cooper obviously knew that the aft stairs could be deployed in flight, but somehow believed they were controlled through the cockpit. A mistake that didn't hinder his objectives.
I will disagree with you though and say that Cooper was extremely thorough (but not perfect), and his knowledge wasn't infinite. Luck plays a role in most everything in life, and I can't deny that Dan Cooper had luck on his side on that fateful evening.
Again, my contention is that Cooper is an engineer (per the Citizen Sleuths and their analysis of the metal particles on his tie).
He also holds at least an instrument rating with a private pilot's license (because of his knowledge of flight operations).
He knew things the pilots didn't even know! He knew 10,000 feet, 160 knots, flaps at 30 degrees. I say that puts him at a potentially high level of knowledge and expertise. Meyer Louie
I believe he had military training, but probably hadn't made a skydiving attempt in years. Therefore, he seems informed about skydiving, but certainly doesn't appear to be an expert.
[/quote]
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The Tie
As y'all debate the tie, remember that its existence as true evidence is a tad suspect. A couple of things, which I have mentioned before:
1. The tie only entered the evidence collection in Seattle on Monday November 29, 1971, according to Calame and Rhodes. So- where was it since Wednesday night? Who had it, too?
2. The four FBI agents who were responsible for collecting all the evidence on Flight 305 when it landed do not remember seeing the tie, nor retrieving it, according to interviews conducted by Calame and Rhodes.
3. Tina Mucklow told Calame and Rhodes that she does not remember the tie, either, despite telling the FBI she did see it during her debrief in Reno on November 24.
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It would be funny if one of the agents was the owner of the tie. taking it off while looking under the seats etc., and then not saying anything :)) :)) :))
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377 You say: "Sheridan's alleged lie about birth dates doesn't prove he was DBC. I do not believe a jury would convict Sheridan on the evidence that has been presented so far. His strikingly blue eye color doesn't match the witness descriptions (brown) and there is no evidence that he used colored contacts.
If I represented him I would move for a pretrial dismissal based on the FBI's spoliation of possibly exculpatory evidence (cig butts) and their failure to properly preserve, control custody, and prevent contamination of other evidence (tie) etc. Failing that I'd bet I could get a jury to acquit. The evidentiary standard for a guilty verdict in a criminal trial is proof beyond a reasonable doubt, NOT preponderance of evidence (the civil standard).
No way could that standard be met with regards to Peterson based on the evidence that has been produced so far."
I say: "You have to take off your Lawyer Hat that teaches you that you can always prove :Black is White" to get your client off free and clear. Then put on your Engineering Hat and deal with the real facts in the DB Cooper case. The FLAW in Sheridan's phony alibi is all I need to know that Sheridan is DB Cooper. The question that leads to that conclusion is "why would he lie to the FBI (a Federal Crime with jail time) unless he had to show he was in Nepal delivering one of his children? Neither child was born in Norjak year (1971) as the son was born in 1970 and the daughter in 1972 and neither were born in 1971." Now that is just my Engineering Logic and I think you can understand that too. I do not think the FBI should put Sheridan in jail but do a trade of no jail for telling us the rest of the story and we can finally close Norjak.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
PS Like your skydiving photo it has lots of color.
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Responses to Meyer Louie above.
Me: Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime.
Mr Louie: This is your original contention, Mr. Rollins. I cited several examples where this statement can't possibly be true.
Response, Sure, he's not perfect, but after 45 years nobody even knows who he is. I guess he did something right!
Me: wears sunglasses for most of the flight,
Mr. Louie: There was a brief time where he did NOT wear his sunglasses. Some people saw him at that time. Diligent about maintaining his identity? I'd think he would have never taken off his sunglasses and would have never allowed anyone to see his eyes and eye color. Again, it begs the question, just how diligent was he?
Response, It might have looked suspicious in 1971 to wear sunglasses on an overcast day with rain showers onto the plane. So he didn't don the sunglasses until after he gave Florence the note. Tina never saw his eyes.
Me: retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace.
Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
Mr Louie: Be assured that I am not assured that this actually happened.
Response, It's okay to have an opposing opinion, since there is no evidence to support either premise.
Me: I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed.
Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag).
Mr Louie: If he had duct tape, I would think he would have used it to seal up the money bag, rather than going to all that trouble of cutting parachute chord and using it to secure the bag.
Response: And maybe he did! He had items in his paper bag and briefcase that he didn't want anyone to know he had. But while the 727 sat on the ground for almost 2 hours being refueled, he made use of that time and the available material on hand, but without revealing the other items that he had with him.
I guess a lot of this comes down to how you view Dan Cooper. If you consider him to be dumb and careless, then you see all these issues as pertinent to his character. However, if you consider him to be an intelligent and inventive individual like I do, you see these "mistakes" that he commits as just small oversights in the overall successful big picture.
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Sailshaw writes: "I say: "You have to take off your Lawyer Hat that teaches you that you can always prove :Black is White" to get your client off free and clear."
You are flipping things around Sail. As defense counsel I don't have to prove ANYTHING. The burden of proof is 100% on the prosecution. I don't think the prosecutor could prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Sheridan Peterson did the skyjack. I'd defend Sheridan free if he were indicted and would let me represent him. I'd have a pretty good chance of getting the case dismissed before it ever went to a jury based on FBI mishandling and loss of key evidence.
His alleged Nepal birthdate lie does not prove he is DBC. You are a logical engineer and you know that statement is correct. An alibi lie is circumstantial evidence of guilt, I will admit that, but it's not proof.
Here is a typical jury instruction on the subject:
CALCRIM Jury Instruction 362 – Consciousness of Guilt: False Statements
If the defendant made a false or misleading statement before this trial relating to the charged crime, knowing the statement was false or intending to mislead, that conduct may show (he/she) was aware of (his/her) guilt of the crime and you may consider it in determining (his/her) guilt.
377
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Sunglasses
It's not exactly clear when he put them on. Bill Mitchell says that he saw Dan Cooper put on his shades as they crossed the tarmac to board the plane, just as Bill did since the sun was coming out in a classic "sun break" so common to the PNW. This scenario refutes what Florence has supposedly said.
Adding more confusion, Mike Cooper, the other "Cooper" -remember coming in from Montana - says that he was standing with Tina at the top of the stairs during the brief lay-over at Portland, and Cooper was one of the first to approach the plane to board. Mike says Tina turned him around for reasons that are unclear, but in general framework of: "we're not ready to board passengers just yet." I will clarify that with Mike in the near future, and as to whether Dan Cooper was wearing his sunglasses, and when.
Of course, I could clarify that with Tina, too, but as we all know she has said everything that needs to be said about Norjak, as per Allison Berg and the Nice People at LMNO.
As for Florence and what she saw about sunglasses and when, well, it appears that even the nicest niceness from the Nice People is not nice enough.
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The Tie
As y'all debate the tie, remember that its existence as true evidence is a tad suspect. A couple of things, which I have mentioned before:
1. The tie only entered the evidence collection in Seattle on Monday November 29, 1971, according to Calame and Rhodes. So- where was it since Wednesday night? Who had it, too?
2. The four FBI agents who were responsible for collecting all the evidence on Flight 305 when it landed do not remember seeing the tie, nor retrieving it, according to interviews conducted by Calame and Rhodes.
3. Tina Mucklow told Calame and Rhodes that she does not remember the tie, either, despite telling the FBI she did see it during her debrief in Reno on November 24.
In the FBI interviews directly after the hijacking, Florence gives a physical description of Cooper and mentions that he is wearing a thin black tie. Alice states that he wore a white shirt and tie. Tina, in her second interview in PA, states that Cooper impressed her as being an executive by his dress, special mannerisms, and the consideration that he exhibited for her while he was on the aircraft.
So it appears that Cooper wore a tie onto the airplane. What may have happened to it from there, obviously, is debatable.
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Yes, I agree that DB Cooper probably wore a thin, black tie during the skyjacking. I also believe that there is a strong probability that he took it off and left it on the plane. For me, the big issue who is making iron-clad statements about it, and why.
Knowing more about Red Campbell might be useful, since he was in charge of the evidence retrieval in Reno. What kind of guy was he? What was his standing in the Bureau? Respected? Tolerated? Hated? Bill Jensen was supposed to be looking into this a bit because he said he wanted to find the 8 missing cigarette butts, which also falls into Campbell's purview. But I haven't heard a word from Billy.
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Sunglasses
It's not exactly clear when he put them on. Bill Mitchell says that he saw Dan Cooper put on his shades as they crossed the tarmac to board the plane, just as Bill did since the sun was coming out in a classic "sun break" so common to the PNW. This scenario refutes what Florence has supposedly said.
Adding more confusion, Mike Cooper, the other "Cooper" -remember coming in from Montana - says that he was standing with Tina at the top of the stairs during the brief lay-over at Portland, and Cooper was one of the first to approach the plane to board. Mike says Tina turned him around for reasons that are unclear, but in general framework of: "we're not ready to board passengers just yet." I will clarify that with Mike in the near future, and as to whether Dan Cooper was wearing his sunglasses, and when.
Of course, I could clarify that with Tina, too, but as we all know she has said everything that needs to be said about Norjak, as per Allison Berg and the Nice People at LMNO.
As for Florence and what she saw about sunglasses and when, well, it appears that even the nicest niceness from the Nice People is not nice enough.
Bruce,
Passengers do not leave the inside waiting area until they do so to board the aircraft. That prevents anyone wandering around loose out on the tarmac and getting themselves into a pickle.
Flo told the FBI (see her Form 302 statement) that she was standing at the rear entrance to the airplane, meaning in this case that she was standing on the tarmac by the bottom of the rear stairs, and checking passengers onto the airplane. Flo stated that Cooper was the next-to-last passenger to board the airliner. She made that statement to the FBI in Seattle just a short time after leaving the hijacked airliner. So her memories qualifiy as being "fresh".
And in the boarding process, Cooper never made it forward of the last row of seats area in the cabin. Your Cooper may have never even seen DB Cooper.
Check with your source if you want, but be sure to ask him how he explains away Flo's statement to the FBI.
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For me, one witness' statement does not cancel another's statement. I proceed with everything in a state of possibility. What Mike Cooper and Bill Mitchell told me may be true or not. What Flo told the FBI may be true or not, as well.
The bigger issue is who is telling the closest version of the truth, which leads to the question of how do we know who is telling the truth to us.
Since Florence isn't talking to any reporters, and hasn't since at least 2008 when GG says that he talked with her, her comments have a tinge of suspicion. Further, it is increasingly apparent that the NWO and possibly the USG had reason to shape the skyjacking narrative. For NWO it might have been to protect their company's image in the mind of the flying public. For the gov't, it might have been to protect the secret of how to jump from a 727, to the extent that was possible after November 24, 1971.
Bottom Line: We have three witnesses tell us three different stories about the sunglasses and how Dan Cooper boarded the aircraft.
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Andy Anderson
Anybody know what's cooking with Andy? EVick tracked him to Hawaii, but our newbie reporter in Hawaii has not gotten back to me or this Forum. I've phoned, emailed and sent a copy of my book to Anderson's address in Hawaii, but I've gotten no response.
Andy and Flo are tied for first place for Most Intractable 305 Crew Member. Not even Jo Weber is getting through to these folks - and Jo not only found Tina, she had a bunch of phone calls with her, albeit brief, and lengthy ones with Tina's sister. As much as Jo drives me crazy, I do respect her ability to weasel her way into people's lives.
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Don't know about smoke jumper payloads. I've jumped with about 25 lbs of stuff in addn to my rig. The weight isn't the problem, although it makes landings tricker, it's the aero drag asymmetry that messes things up in freefall. I could probably handle another 75 lbs if the payload pack was symmetrical. More weight makes for a higher speed landing but your canopy glide angle (dictated by L/D) remains unchanged.
377
377 - including parachute and reserve, it's not uncommon to carry a total weight of 160 lbs for paratroopers
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Don't know about smoke jumper payloads. I've jumped with about 25 lbs of stuff in addn to my rig. The weight isn't the problem, although it makes landings tricker, it's the aero drag asymmetry that messes things up in freefall. I could probably handle another 75 lbs if the payload pack was symmetrical. More weight makes for a higher speed landing but your canopy glide angle (dictated by L/D) remains unchanged.
377
377 - including parachute and reserve, it's not uncommon to carry a total weight of 160 lbs for paratroopers
George21226,
Could you elaborate on what you mean by the above? What is your point?
377 is saying that he could handle about an additional 100 pounds with a square parachute in freefall and landing if it was symmetrically arranged on his person.
Are you (George21226) saying that military paratroopers doing freefalls with square parachutes can carry about 160 pounds (less the weight of the parachute system)? There is not a world of difference here with what 377 is saying.
I think we all agree that static-line paratroopers carry a great amount of extra equipment and some of it can be lowered on a lanyard to contact the ground before the paratrooper does. But this is not what 377 is saying.
377 is absolutely correct in saying that the horizontal landing speed goes up as a function of the total weight but that the glide angle (L/D) stays the same.
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For me, one witness' statement does not cancel another's statement. I proceed with everything in a state of possibility. What Mike Cooper and Bill Mitchell told me may be true or not. What Flo told the FBI may be true or not, as well.
The bigger issue is who is telling the closest version of the truth, which leads to the question of how do we know who is telling the truth to us.
Since Florence isn't talking to any reporters, and hasn't since at least 2008 when GG says that he talked with her, her comments have a tinge of suspicion. Further, it is increasingly apparent that the NWO and possibly the USG had reason to shape the skyjacking narrative. For NWO it might have been to protect their company's image in the mind of the flying public. For the gov't, it might have been to protect the secret of how to jump from a 727, to the extent that was possible after November 24, 1971.
Bottom Line: We have three witnesses tell us three different stories about the sunglasses and how Dan Cooper boarded the aircraft.
Bruce,
You have given an excellent explanation above of why Flo, Tina, Rataczak, Anderson, and all the other people who have first hand knowledge of the hijacking, have gotten fed up with talking to self-styled reporters and investigators.
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Responses to Meyer Louie above.
Me: Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime.
Mr Louie: This is your original contention, Mr. Rollins. I cited several examples where this statement can't possibly be true.
Response, Sure, he's not perfect, but after 45 years nobody even knows who he is. I guess he did something right!
Me: wears sunglasses for most of the flight,
Mr. Louie: There was a brief time where he did NOT wear his sunglasses. Some people saw him at that time. Diligent about maintaining his identity? I'd think he would have never taken off his sunglasses and would have never allowed anyone to see his eyes and eye color. Again, it begs the question, just how diligent was he?
Response, It might have looked suspicious in 1971 to wear sunglasses on an overcast day with rain showers onto the plane. So he didn't don the sunglasses until after he gave Florence the note. Tina never saw his eyes.
Me: retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace.
Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
Mr Louie: Be assured that I am not assured that this actually happened.
Response, It's okay to have an opposing opinion, since there is no evidence to support either premise.
Me: I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed.
Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag).
Mr Louie: If he had duct tape, I would think he would have used it to seal up the money bag, rather than going to all that trouble of cutting parachute chord and using it to secure the bag.
Response: And maybe he did! He had items in his paper bag and briefcase that he didn't want anyone to know he had. But while the 727 sat on the ground for almost 2 hours being refueled, he made use of that time and the available material on hand, but without revealing the other items that he had with him.
I guess a lot of this comes down to how you view Dan Cooper. If you consider him to be dumb and careless, then you see all these issues as pertinent to his character. However, if you consider him to be an intelligent and inventive individual like I do, you see these "mistakes" that he commits as just small oversights in the overall successful big picture.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I think I'm having another deja vue. Didn't Robert Blevins respond to posts like this -- section by section, piece by piece, over and over again?
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For me, one witness' statement does not cancel another's statement. I proceed with everything in a state of possibility. What Mike Cooper and Bill Mitchell told me may be true or not. What Flo told the FBI may be true or not, as well.
The bigger issue is who is telling the closest version of the truth, which leads to the question of how do we know who is telling the truth to us.
Since Florence isn't talking to any reporters, and hasn't since at least 2008 when GG says that he talked with her, her comments have a tinge of suspicion. Further, it is increasingly apparent that the NWO and possibly the USG had reason to shape the skyjacking narrative. For NWO it might have been to protect their company's image in the mind of the flying public. For the gov't, it might have been to protect the secret of how to jump from a 727, to the extent that was possible after November 24, 1971.
Bottom Line: We have three witnesses tell us three different stories about the sunglasses and how Dan Cooper boarded the aircraft.
Bruce,
You have given an excellent explanation above of why Flo, Tina, Rataczak, Anderson, and all the other people who have first hand knowledge of the hijacking, have gotten fed up with talking to self-styled reporters and investigators.
I think Robt99's point is, it's the investigators job to re-interview and get more data in order to sort conflicts like this out, as opposed to stopping investigation and jumping ship, then resorting to a 'conspiracy theory' bailout? Investigators are not allowed shortcuts!
;)
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When principals stop talking to journalists, their silence becomes part of the story.
Nevertheless, I do have some appreciation of how irksome it can be repeating the same information over and over, particularly since so many reporters are under-prepared and lack basic knowledge of what they are investigating.
Virtually everyone I speak with who calls me about Norjak, such as freelance reporters, Hollywood producers, or radio talk show hosts, have yet to read my book. As a result, they ask many questions that I discuss at length in the book, and it feels unprofessional of them - and disrespectful to me - that they are so unprepared. I now know why, and commiserate with, Ralph's Himmelsbach for charging for interviews. A case in point: As far as I know, Tom Colbert has yet to read my book even though he quotes me at length in his book, based upon some DBC pieces he has found in Mountain News from 2011. He did reassure me that "someone" on his staff has read my updated 2016 book. Big Whoop, there, Tommy.
As for the principals, I've mailed each crew member a hard copy with the hope that they could see, first, what I've already said about them, and two, reassure them that I would be asking questions of an advanced nature and not seeking basic information. So far, not a peep from any crew members. Same for the FBI guys.
To me that is very telling, investigatorily.
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Responses to Meyer Louie above.
Me: Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime.
Mr Louie: This is your original contention, Mr. Rollins. I cited several examples where this statement can't possibly be true.
Response, Sure, he's not perfect, but after 45 years nobody even knows who he is. I guess he did something right!
Me: wears sunglasses for most of the flight,
Mr. Louie: There was a brief time where he did NOT wear his sunglasses. Some people saw him at that time. Diligent about maintaining his identity? I'd think he would have never taken off his sunglasses and would have never allowed anyone to see his eyes and eye color. Again, it begs the question, just how diligent was he?
Response, It might have looked suspicious in 1971 to wear sunglasses on an overcast day with rain showers onto the plane. So he didn't don the sunglasses until after he gave Florence the note. Tina never saw his eyes.
Me: retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace.
Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
Mr Louie: Be assured that I am not assured that this actually happened.
Response, It's okay to have an opposing opinion, since there is no evidence to support either premise.
Me: I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed.
Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag).
Mr Louie: If he had duct tape, I would think he would have used it to seal up the money bag, rather than going to all that trouble of cutting parachute chord and using it to secure the bag.
Response: And maybe he did! He had items in his paper bag and briefcase that he didn't want anyone to know he had. But while the 727 sat on the ground for almost 2 hours being refueled, he made use of that time and the available material on hand, but without revealing the other items that he had with him.
I guess a lot of this comes down to how you view Dan Cooper. If you consider him to be dumb and careless, then you see all these issues as pertinent to his character. However, if you consider him to be an intelligent and inventive individual like I do, you see these "mistakes" that he commits as just small oversights in the overall successful big picture.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I think I'm having another deja vue. Didn't Robert Blevins respond to posts like this -- section by section, piece by piece, over and over again?
In any event.....we could go back and forth even more on these matters, Mr. Rollins. You've made your point, and I made min. You have, however, gotten me to think about another angle here. What was Cooper's real state of mind and soul at that moment in time? He may have experienced some excruciating loss and was very distraught. That was his grudge, this was his reaction to his internal agony. It's probably safe to say he was a desperate man carrying out a desperate act. I wonder if anyone has researched this angle and followed up on a military guy in the Portland or Seattle area, prior to that time, who may have lost his family or loved one(s) in some horrible accident, a house fire, or some dereliction of duty by a governmental agency or hospital that resulted in the death of a family member or members.
-
Responses to Meyer Louie above.
Me: Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime.
Mr Louie: This is your original contention, Mr. Rollins. I cited several examples where this statement can't possibly be true.
Response, Sure, he's not perfect, but after 45 years nobody even knows who he is. I guess he did something right!
Me: wears sunglasses for most of the flight,
Mr. Louie: There was a brief time where he did NOT wear his sunglasses. Some people saw him at that time. Diligent about maintaining his identity? I'd think he would have never taken off his sunglasses and would have never allowed anyone to see his eyes and eye color. Again, it begs the question, just how diligent was he?
Response, It might have looked suspicious in 1971 to wear sunglasses on an overcast day with rain showers onto the plane. So he didn't don the sunglasses until after he gave Florence the note. Tina never saw his eyes.
Me: retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace.
Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
Mr Louie: Be assured that I am not assured that this actually happened.
Response, It's okay to have an opposing opinion, since there is no evidence to support either premise.
Me: I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed.
Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag).
Mr Louie: If he had duct tape, I would think he would have used it to seal up the money bag, rather than going to all that trouble of cutting parachute chord and using it to secure the bag.
Response: And maybe he did! He had items in his paper bag and briefcase that he didn't want anyone to know he had. But while the 727 sat on the ground for almost 2 hours being refueled, he made use of that time and the available material on hand, but without revealing the other items that he had with him.
I guess a lot of this comes down to how you view Dan Cooper. If you consider him to be dumb and careless, then you see all these issues as pertinent to his character. However, if you consider him to be an intelligent and inventive individual like I do, you see these "mistakes" that he commits as just small oversights in the overall successful big picture.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I think I'm having another deja vue. Didn't Robert Blevins respond to posts like this -- section by section, piece by piece, over and over again?
In any event.....we could go back and forth even more on these matters, Mr. Rollins. You've made your point, and I made mine. You have, however, gotten me to think about another angle here. What was Cooper's real state of mind and soul at that moment in time? He may have experienced some excruciating loss and was very distraught. That was his grudge, this was his reaction to his internal agony. It's probably safe to say he was a desperate man carrying out a desperate act. I wonder if anyone has researched this angle and followed up on a military guy in the Portland or Seattle area, prior to that time, who may have lost his family or loved one(s) in some horrible accident, a house fire, or some dereliction of duty by a governmental agency or hospital that resulted in the death of a family member or members. Or some agency screwed up big time, forcing him to spend his life savings on something that was not his fault.
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I think I'm having another deja vue. Didn't Robert Blevins respond to posts like this -- section by section, piece by piece, over and over again?
In any event.....we could go back and forth even more on these matters, Mr. Rollins. You've made your point, and I made min. You have, however, gotten me to think about another angle here. What was Cooper's real state of mind and soul at that moment in time? He may have experienced some excruciating loss and was very distraught. That was his grudge, this was his reaction to his internal agony. It's probably safe to say he was a desperate man carrying out a desperate act. I wonder if anyone has researched this angle and followed up on a military guy in the Portland or Seattle area, prior to that time, who may have lost his family or loved one(s) in some horrible accident, a house fire, or some dereliction of duty by a governmental agency or hospital that resulted in the death of a family member or members.
Interesting that you should suggest this. My book focuses exactly on this point. I couldn't understand why a 45 year old engineer (based on Citizen Sleuths tie analysis), would risk it all (career, jail time, his very life), to attempt this hijacking. As I pondered more and examined every tidbit of evidence, it was like Dan Cooper was reaching out to me. I got headaches, then depression, and finally just broke down and cried. It was if my immediate family (wife and 15 year old son) were taken from me. I felt utter despair and the loss of the will to live. This is what I feel Cooper went through. Only, as you note, he blamed someone or some entity for his loss.
Thus Cooper's grudge is his motivation. The money holds little value to Cooper, except that it represents his revenge. With this highly emotional drive, Cooper meticulously plans this hijacking. So as an engineer and instrument-rated pilot (traits I believe I have in common with Dan Cooper), I looked at how I would plan this caper. How would I evade the chase planes, avoid roadblocks on the ground, and leave no trace at PDX? Also, how would I do this with no accomplice? After hours of thought and devising various trials, I came to an answer. But then I realized, my plot was what Dan Cooper did!
Here is a link to my book. You can preview the first several chapters for free.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MDNQZQX/ref=sr_1_7?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1476833501&sr=1-7&keywords=db+cooper (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MDNQZQX/ref=sr_1_7?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1476833501&sr=1-7&keywords=db+cooper)
So now comes the part where some of you will think I am crazy, but I feel a connection to Dan Cooper. I am very confident in my analysis of what happened on the night of November 24, 1971, and the answer I have derived corroborates the evidence better than any scenario I have ever read. Cooper escaped with the money. Most of you know the logistics that I have presented.
At the risk of being brazen, I will state that I am the man who will find Dan Cooper. I understand how he carried out this hijacking, and know from the metals in his tie the industry where he would have been employed. I am on a mission to find this man!
I feel this man is still alive, although quite elderly. Time is running out. Dan wants to tell his story, but not from a jail cell. The nature of his grudge may be as big a story as the hijacking itself. Without the grudge, there would have been no hijacking.
Dan Cooper is an ordinary citizen like most of us, who has dealt with a life-altering tragedy, but is taking a stance against some injustice. It is up to us as citizens to find Dan Cooper while there is still time.
But I need help. Therefore, I am reaching out to the forum membership. I want to create a YouTuube video that reaches out to Dan Cooper and the rest of the world. Dan may respond to us ( in a non-traceable manner) if he feels no threat. He may give us a clue. But also, as the general public learns how Cooper executed this caper, and that he probably lived in the Portland/southwestern WA area for a month or more, scoping out PDX, hiking the roads and fields near Merwin Dam, making practice boat runs, and visiting Tena Bar, someone, somehow, a fisherman, a camping ground owner, or just a resident of Ariel, may remember this peculiar guy with a pickup truck/camper, hauling around his aluminum boat on a trailer. Some of these witnesses probably interfaced with Cooper, but never realized it was him! If we could get a truck description and state of licensure, think how this would limit the number of possibilities!
So, have a look at my book. In the end analysis, this description of the events of Nov. 24, 1971 eliminates all the mysteries surrounding this case, and leaves us with only two questions: who is Dan Cooper and where is he now?
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Responses to Meyer Louie above.
Me: Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime.
Mr Louie: This is your original contention, Mr. Rollins. I cited several examples where this statement can't possibly be true.
Response, Sure, he's not perfect, but after 45 years nobody even knows who he is. I guess he did something right!
Me: wears sunglasses for most of the flight,
Mr. Louie: There was a brief time where he did NOT wear his sunglasses. Some people saw him at that time. Diligent about maintaining his identity? I'd think he would have never taken off his sunglasses and would have never allowed anyone to see his eyes and eye color. Again, it begs the question, just how diligent was he?
Response, It might have looked suspicious in 1971 to wear sunglasses on an overcast day with rain showers onto the plane. So he didn't don the sunglasses until after he gave Florence the note. Tina never saw his eyes.
Me: retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace.
Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
Mr Louie: Be assured that I am not assured that this actually happened.
Response, It's okay to have an opposing opinion, since there is no evidence to support either premise.
Me: I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed.
Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag).
Mr Louie: If he had duct tape, I would think he would have used it to seal up the money bag, rather than going to all that trouble of cutting parachute chord and using it to secure the bag.
Response: And maybe he did! He had items in his paper bag and briefcase that he didn't want anyone to know he had. But while the 727 sat on the ground for almost 2 hours being refueled, he made use of that time and the available material on hand, but without revealing the other items that he had with him.
I guess a lot of this comes down to how you view Dan Cooper. If you consider him to be dumb and careless, then you see all these issues as pertinent to his character. However, if you consider him to be an intelligent and inventive individual like I do, you see these "mistakes" that he commits as just small oversights in the overall successful big picture.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I think I'm having another deja vue. Didn't Robert Blevins respond to posts like this -- section by section, piece by piece, over and over again?
In any event.....we could go back and forth even more on these matters, Mr. Rollins. You've made your point, and I made min. You have, however, gotten me to think about another angle here. What was Cooper's real state of mind and soul at that moment in time? He may have experienced some excruciating loss and was very distraught. That was his grudge, this was his reaction to his internal agony. It's probably safe to say he was a desperate man carrying out a desperate act. I wonder if anyone has researched this angle and followed up on a military guy in the Portland or Seattle area, prior to that time, who may have lost his family or loved one(s) in some horrible accident, a house fire, or some dereliction of duty by a governmental agency or hospital that resulted in the death of a family member or members.
The part above in bold is something I've thought about a lot. What was ripping apart a lot of families during this time period?
The Vietnam war of course.
Cooper was described by most to be around 45-50 years old. It's perfectly reasonable then that he may have had a son of Vietnam draft age in the mid-late 60's. So many young men did not come home alive and I've often wondered if Cooper may have had a son killed in Vietnam. He had a grudge against the government for shipping his son off to war only to not come back home again. His whole world was turned upside down by this loss. People react differently to tragedy and tragedy has a way of sending some people off the deep end. Take someone who is maybe not the most emotionally or mentally stable person to begin with and add a personal tragedy of this magnitude on top. Now mix in a feeling of betrayal and grudge against the government for their role in this tragedy. Now you have the recipe for something totally crazy to happen .... you know, like hijacking an airplane and ransoming the government.
When thinking about Cooper's motive, this is one that has always sort of resonated with me.
-
Responses to Meyer Louie above.
Me: Notice that Cooper is very diligent about removing evidence from this crime.
Mr Louie: This is your original contention, Mr. Rollins. I cited several examples where this statement can't possibly be true.
Response, Sure, he's not perfect, but after 45 years nobody even knows who he is. I guess he did something right!
Me: wears sunglasses for most of the flight,
Mr. Louie: There was a brief time where he did NOT wear his sunglasses. Some people saw him at that time. Diligent about maintaining his identity? I'd think he would have never taken off his sunglasses and would have never allowed anyone to see his eyes and eye color. Again, it begs the question, just how diligent was he?
Response, It might have looked suspicious in 1971 to wear sunglasses on an overcast day with rain showers onto the plane. So he didn't don the sunglasses until after he gave Florence the note. Tina never saw his eyes.
Me: retrieves an empty book of matches that Tina discards and puts it in his pocket! He is going the extra mile to leave no trace.
Be assured he takes the briefcase with him.
Mr Louie: Be assured that I am not assured that this actually happened.
Response, It's okay to have an opposing opinion, since there is no evidence to support either premise.
Me: I maintain that Cooper planned this caper for at least a month. He didn't jump unprepared! He had everything he needed.
Think of the problems he could solve with just a roll of duct tape (kept in the paper bag).
Mr Louie: If he had duct tape, I would think he would have used it to seal up the money bag, rather than going to all that trouble of cutting parachute chord and using it to secure the bag.
Response: And maybe he did! He had items in his paper bag and briefcase that he didn't want anyone to know he had. But while the 727 sat on the ground for almost 2 hours being refueled, he made use of that time and the available material on hand, but without revealing the other items that he had with him.
I guess a lot of this comes down to how you view Dan Cooper. If you consider him to be dumb and careless, then you see all these issues as pertinent to his character. However, if you consider him to be an intelligent and inventive individual like I do, you see these "mistakes" that he commits as just small oversights in the overall successful big picture.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I think I'm having another deja vue. Didn't Robert Blevins respond to posts like this -- section by section, piece by piece, over and over again?
In any event.....we could go back and forth even more on these matters, Mr. Rollins. You've made your point, and I made min. You have, however, gotten me to think about another angle here. What was Cooper's real state of mind and soul at that moment in time? He may have experienced some excruciating loss and was very distraught. That was his grudge, this was his reaction to his internal agony. It's probably safe to say he was a desperate man carrying out a desperate act. I wonder if anyone has researched this angle and followed up on a military guy in the Portland or Seattle area, prior to that time, who may have lost his family or loved one(s) in some horrible accident, a house fire, or some dereliction of duty by a governmental agency or hospital that resulted in the death of a family member or members.
The part above in bold is something I've thought about a lot. What was ripping apart a lot of families during this time period?
The Vietnam war of course.
Cooper was described by most to be around 45-50 years old. It's perfectly reasonable then that he may have had a son of Vietnam draft age in the mid-late 60's. So many young men did not come home alive and I've often wondered if Cooper may have had a son killed in Vietnam. He had a grudge against the government for shipping his son off to war only to not come back home again. His whole world was turned upside down by this loss. People react differently to tragedy and tragedy has a way of sending some people off the deep end. Take someone who is maybe not the most emotionally or mentally stable person to begin with and add a personal tragedy of this magnitude on top. Now mix in a feeling of betrayal and grudge against the government for their role in this tragedy. Now you have the recipe for something totally crazy to happen .... you know, like hijacking an airplane and ransoming the government.
When thinking about Cooper's motive, this is one that has always sort of resonated with me.
It's definitely possible. A political crime.
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The reliability of the age metric is, IMHO, the weakest descriptor for Cooper. It is widely known that how folks age widely varies, and should not be too heavily relied upon.
I am consistently "carded" at fine establishments, despite heaving enjoyed the product served longer than the server has been alive in many cases.
Just my two cents...
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The reliability of the age metric is, IMHO, the weakest descriptor for Cooper. It is widely known that how folks age widely varies, and should not be too heavily relied upon.
I am consistently "carded" at fine establishments, despite heaving enjoyed the product served longer than the server has been alive in many cases.
Just my two cents...
I am 94 going on 20.
And if you believe that you belong on RobertMBlevins' and Gaylar's website!
O0 O0 O0 :))
Vote for the Crazy One.
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age can be difficult sometimes, but I find it hard to understand how it could go from the 50's down to the 20's.
Same for descriptions. most crimes last only seconds and the victim doesn't have much time to react. Tina spent hours with him. then some people try and use the passengers descriptions, those are all over the board because they had no reason to recall him.
Then we have the sketch that almost everyone agree's could be inaccurate, but most place there suspect right next to it stating similarities?
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age can be difficult sometimes, but I find it hard to understand how it could go from the 50's down to the 20's.
Again - age is not something that is consistently applied to people (and there are outliers aplenty). And IF there was one descriptor that is subjective, it would be age. To me, it is just something I wouldn't take completely at - no pun intended - face value, regardless of the eyewitness accounts.
Oh, and the lighting in an airplane cabin is horrible, especially on evening or night flights. #NoodleOnThat
“Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.” -Sherlock Holmes
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The reliability of the age metric is, IMHO, the weakest descriptor for Cooper. It is widely known that how folks age widely varies, and should not be too heavily relied upon.
I am consistently "carded" at fine establishments, despite heaving enjoyed the product served longer than the server has been alive in many cases.
Just my two cents...
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Yeah, I get tired of people telling me I look 39, or I look young for my age. I know how it is.... but it's not my fault I'm so young-looking and handsome. Ha!
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The reliability of the age metric is, IMHO, the weakest descriptor for Cooper. It is widely known that how folks age widely varies, and should not be too heavily relied upon.
I am consistently "carded" at fine establishments, despite heaving enjoyed the product served longer than the server has been alive in many cases.
Just my two cents...
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Yeah, I get tired of people telling me I look 39, or I look young for my age. I know how it is.... but it's not my fault I'm so young-looking and handsome. Ha!
Speaking of getting carded.....did you know that in the 60s and 70s, Canadians did not have picture IDs. Your ID did not have your picture on it. I kid you not! My cousin Lee from Canada came down to the states and we decided to go out to a local bar one night.
The bouncer asked us for ID. My cousin handed him his Canadian driver's license. The bouncer took a quick look and handed it right back to Lee and said, "Sir, I'm sorry, I need ID with a picture on it."
So Lee grabbed back his ID, drew a quick picture on it, and handed it back to the bouncer.
The bouncer looked at it again, and said, "Sir, I'm sorry, but I need a picture of you on it."
So cousin Lee took the ID back, drew a quick picture of himself on it, then handed it back to the bouncer.
The bouncer looked at it again and replied, "Sir, I'm sorry, but this just isn't good enough!"
Cousin Lee then retorted, "What the hell is this!? You gotta be an artist to get into this place, or what??"
Had to tell that one -- been a while since I told a joke around here......
Meyer
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The part above in bold is something I've thought about a lot. What was ripping apart a lot of families during this time period?
The Vietnam war of course.
Cooper was described by most to be around 45-50 years old. It's perfectly reasonable then that he may have had a son of Vietnam draft age in the mid-late 60's. So many young men did not come home alive and I've often wondered if Cooper may have had a son killed in Vietnam. He had a grudge against the government for shipping his son off to war only to not come back home again. His whole world was turned upside down by this loss. People react differently to tragedy and tragedy has a way of sending some people off the deep end. Take someone who is maybe not the most emotionally or mentally stable person to begin with and add a personal tragedy of this magnitude on top. Now mix in a feeling of betrayal and grudge against the government for their role in this tragedy. Now you have the recipe for something totally crazy to happen .... you know, like hijacking an airplane and ransoming the government.
When thinking about Cooper's motive, this is one that has always sort of resonated with me.
I can see several other potential tragedies that may have been the catalyst for Cooper:
1) An airline crash in CA where an F-4 collides with a DC-9. All passengers are killed. Where was Air Traffic Control? Could Cooper's family be on the passenger plane?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Airwest_Flight_706 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Airwest_Flight_706)
2) An Alaska Airlines 727 crashes on approach to Juneau, AK. All are killed. Again, where was Air Traffic Control and could Cooper's family be on this plane?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_1866 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Airlines_Flight_1866)
3) Could Cooper's grudge be against the FBI because of a hijacking incident just 7 weeks prior to his. This incident has become known as the classic example of how not to deal with a hijacking. When the FBI tries to play hardball, the hijacker kills the young pilot, his estranged wife, then himself. The 29 year old dead pilot has a 1-1/2 year old son and a wife who is 7 months pregnant. After the incident, the FBI claims no responsibility for the outcome.
http://www.nashvillescene.com/news/article/13018682/a-nashville-hijacking-38-years-ago-set-the-standard-on-how-not-to-handle-hostage-negotiations (http://www.nashvillescene.com/news/article/13018682/a-nashville-hijacking-38-years-ago-set-the-standard-on-how-not-to-handle-hostage-negotiations)
4) Some other local incident that never garnered national attention, but left Cooper without a loved one.
But I agree, there was some very tragic event in Cooper's life that lead to this hijacking.
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Personally, I could get past the age issue with Rackstraw if there were any hard evidence pointing to him. It's the absence of any hard evidence, coupled with the age issue, that point to him as being someone who probably isn't our guy.
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Picture IDs
My New York State drivers license did not have a picture of Moi until the late 1970s, I believe. I clearly remember the days of not having photo ID.
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Was it Scott who started the easterly flight path?
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTSen8EFTZE
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Personally, I could get past the age issue with Rackstraw if there were any hard evidence pointing to him. It's the absence of any hard evidence, coupled with the age issue, that point to him as being someone who probably isn't our guy.
"Absence of any hard evidence"? Really? Have you seen the 50 five-star reviews of Colbert's investigative book posted at Amazon - where not one of the readers states he's wrong? (Full disclosure -- I'm one of them).
How about Colbert's website, DBCooper.com? Take ten minutes to scan the 102 pieces of evidence cited, including DNA and forensics, that his Cold Case Team (Disclosure again -- I'm one of the 40) spent five years hunting down - under "Court Evidence" button at top of home page. While there, look at the comments in "Testimonials" section. And finally, absorb the new revelations in the updated articles, which extend now for three pages -- if you only read one, look at "D.B. Cooper Mystery Deepens" (towards the bottom of the home page).
There is more to the Cooper case than the discussion here. There are several great books, written by folks in the trenches. Colbert's book - with its 47 pages of footnotes - is one of them that I highly recommend. I did. So did 377. So did George21226 and JustJulz. I don't think you can get any closer to "someone who probably IS our guy."
But what do I know...
And now - "back to your regularly scheduled programming - already in progress."
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Was it Scott who started the easterly flight path?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTSen8EFTZE
Scott and Rataczak .... at Himmelsbach's retirement party according to JT.
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Not exactly.
Scott said the flight path was WEST of Ariel over Woodland, not east over the Washougal, at Himmelsbach's retirement party, according to Calame and Rhodes.
But Himmelsbach is ADAMANT that Rataczak told him 305 was over the Washougal.
The clip from the KOIN reporter, Mike Monaghan, infers that Scott claimed Washougal, too, but does not make clear how or why he would say that. The FBI debriefing report on Scott is pretty sketchy. Ol' Scotty didn't say much of anything, deferring to everyone else.
Remember, JT was not at Himmelsbach's retirement party. Jerry and Ralph only connected in the late 1990s, according to Himmelsbach, when Jerry was roaming the Washougal River valley and found that briefcase in the cave, etc.
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Personally, I could get past the age issue with Rackstraw if there were any hard evidence pointing to him. It's the absence of any hard evidence, coupled with the age issue, that point to him as being someone who probably isn't our guy.
I agree. And, it's not so much that the hijacker could not be in his 20s. He just has to look like he's in his 40s. I don't see Rackstraw as someone everyone would confuse for a much older man, but then, I didn't see what he looked like in November 1971.
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And, it's not so much that the hijacker could not be in his 20s. He just has to look like he's in his 40s. I don't see Rackstraw as someone everyone would confuse for a much older man, but then, I didn't see what he looked like in November 1971.
And ya see, I disagree with that - based on the photos I have seen. My point is: using the age metric to dismiss a suspect, which we all agree is subjective by its very nature, isn't in the best interests of an investigation.
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Perhaps I wrongly rephrased. I'm not saying Rackstraw couldn't be confused for 40 -- just that I didn't see any photos before 1979, so I can't say he was someone who looked 40 in 1971. I'm not saying he didn't, just that I don't know.
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Don't know about smoke jumper payloads. I've jumped with about 25 lbs of stuff in addn to my rig. The weight isn't the problem, although it makes landings tricker, it's the aero drag asymmetry that messes things up in freefall. I could probably handle another 75 lbs if the payload pack was symmetrical. More weight makes for a higher speed landing but your canopy glide angle (dictated by L/D) remains unchanged.
377
377 - including parachute and reserve, it's not uncommon to carry a total weight of 160 lbs for paratroopers
George21226,
Could you elaborate on what you mean by the above? What is your point?
377 is saying that he could handle about an additional 100 pounds with a square parachute in freefall and landing if it was symmetrically arranged on his person.
Are you (George21226) saying that military paratroopers doing freefalls with square parachutes can carry about 160 pounds (less the weight of the parachute system)? There is not a world of difference here with what 377 is saying.
I think we all agree that static-line paratroopers carry a great amount of extra equipment and some of it can be lowered on a lanyard to contact the ground before the paratrooper does. But this is not what 377 is saying.
377 is absolutely correct in saying that the horizontal landing speed goes up as a function of the total weight but that the glide angle (L/D) stays the same.
377 - Didn't mean to offend anyone. All I was saying is that in '71 95% of the jumpers used traditional parachutes. We called the performance (rectangular) chutes, "death rigs" due to the high percentage of malfunctions. When I was jumping with the Marine Corps sports club at Quantico back in '73 & '74 they were still experimental. In those days the mass majority of sport jumpers used military or modified military chutes. Those military style chutes you could easily carry 100 lbs of gear no problem.
We jumped out of Hueys and CH-46's in '73 & '74. The wind blast was far greater in the Hueys then the CH-46's. You backed down the ramp of the CH-46 and just jumped backwards. The prop wash straightened you out rather quickly. Stable much more quickly then going out the side door of a Huey.
Just sayin...
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Actually in 71 the vast majority of the canopies being jumped at my local DZs were Para Commanders (referred to as PCs) not military surplus rounds. Perhaps you included PCs in the "traditional" chute category as they are still rounds.
Squares were catching on fast but many were not mature designs. The early versions of the ParaPlane squares were delivered trimmed wrong and could very easily stall during the flare process and crash. They were sometimes referred to as Paraplegic Planes and for good reason.
I had MANY rough landings on my military C 9s but somehow managed to avoid breaking anything. I did a pretty good PLF as it was a necessity not an option. I never once stood up a C 9. Mine were old porous (1951 was the mfr date of my primary canopy) and came down damned fast.
377
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Not exactly.
Scott said the flight path was WEST of Ariel over Woodland, not east over the Washougal, at Himmelsbach's retirement party, according to Calame and Rhodes.
But Himmelsbach is ADAMANT that Rataczak told him 305 was over the Washougal.
The clip from the KOIN reporter, Mike Monaghan, infers that Scott claimed Washougal, too, but does not make clear how or why he would say that. The FBI debriefing report on Scott is pretty sketchy. Ol' Scotty didn't say much of anything, deferring to everyone else.
Remember, JT was not at Himmelsbach's retirement party. Jerry and Ralph only connected in the late 1990s, according to Himmelsbach, when Jerry was roaming the Washougal River valley and found that briefcase in the cave, etc.
As I recall all of the posts about this: a number of people spoke to H about various things, at informal gatherings, during the time H was retiring, not just at his retirement party. According to JT, H reprises all of this to JT some years later.
I agree: Scott's original position was 'near Woodland' or 'over Woodland', then he changed or softened that later ... ?
Not sure what Rad's "original" statements were. There are so many (sometimes conflicting) statements attributed to Rad at various times. But Rad is generally given credit for telling H '... now I think we were east ...'. If Calme etal say this happened at H's retirement party I would go with that - you might as well! Maybe Rad threw in Mars but changed his mind later? :)) I dont personally believe Rad can be nailed down to anything because I think he has operated under a "don't talk' mandate ever since the hijacking and has made so many conflicting statements that nothing is definite.
Anderson?
The NWA/FBI La Center Search Map pretty much speaks for what people were saying/thinking back in 71-72.
I dont think there is any secret code book or testimony waiting to be found that is going to change any of this. We have the basic records that exist.
If you recall (its documented in the Transcript). Tina came in a said 'I think he's going to jump soon', or something to that affect. That was radioed in to everyone by Scott. That set the stage for everyone being alert to an imminent jump. But, how seriously did they take this? Were they actually keeping track minute by minute? According to just about everyone they suspected something had happened but nobody was 100% sure, and Anderson says they discussed it (the oscillations and then pressure spike) before calling it in then finally after some discussion Rataczak called it in abruptly! Rataczak even says "he jumped some time probably 5-10 minutes after our last communication with him". That's about as precise as it gets which goes back to the question 'how diligent were they being after Tina came in saying 'he's getting ready to jump sometime soon' ?
I think there is more to this story than any of the principles are telling publicly. Whatever principles testified to or told H or didn't tell H at some date, in 1976 H called a reporter and stated publicly that the FBI had revised the jump time and place which he stated was now "12 miles north of Portland". H then retires 4 years later...
And 'yes'. Anything JT knows or has came in years later from H vs. firsthand witness. JT is a spectator in this whole thing! O0 Many of JT's claims have been shown to be uninformed and untrue.
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Actually in 71 the vast majority of the canopies being jumped at my local DZs were Para Commanders (referred to as PCs) not military surplus rounds. Perhaps you included PCs in the "traditional" chute category as they are still rounds.
Squares were catching on fast but many were not mature designs. The early versions of the ParaPlane squares were delivered trimmed wrong and could very easily stall during the flare process and crash. They were sometimes referred to as Paraplegic Planes and for good reason.
I had MANY rough landings on my military C 9s but somehow managed to avoid breaking anything. I did a pretty good PLF as it was a necessity not an option. I never once stood up a C 9. Mine were old porous (1951 was the mfr date of my primary canopy) and came down damned fast.
377
My limited jumping experience was in the early 1960s and used a surplus WW2 canopy that had a 5-TU modification (I don't know if this was a C-9 or what). And I also always knew when I hit the ground.
My one descent on a reserve, following a big time inversion of the main canopy, ended up with me landing in some tall thin sapling trees. Only my toes made it all the way to the ground. Then, I could not get enough slack in the harness to get the snaps to release.
Getting rid of the main canopy was a real, time consuming problem. Those early Capewell releases did not work very well and I had rope burns on both hands and both thumbs were essentially sprained.
A couple of lessons were learned from that reserve descent. Always wear gloves, you can take them off if necessary but you can't put them on if you don't have them along, and to carry a sharp pocket knife in a pocket that you can get to, after you are on the ground, so that you can cut yourself out of the harness if necessary.
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As I recall all of the posts about this: a number of people spoke to H about various things, at informal gatherings, during the time H was retiring, not just at his retirement party. According to JT, H reprises all of this to JT some years later.
I agree: Scott's original position was 'near Woodland' or 'over Woodland', then he changed or softened that later ... ?
Not sure what Rad's "original" statements were. There are so many (sometimes conflicting) statements attributed to Rad at various times. But Rad is generally given credit for telling H '... now I think we were east ...'. If Calme etal say this happened at H's retirement party I would go with that - you might as well! Maybe Rad threw in Mars but changed his mind later? :)) I dont personally believe Rad can be nailed down to anything because I think he has operated under a "don't talk' mandate ever since the hijacking and has made so many conflicting statements that nothing is definite.
Anderson?
The NWA/FBI La Center Search Map pretty much speaks for what people were saying/thinking back in 71-72.
I dont think there is any secret code book or testimony waiting to be found that is going to change any of this. We have the basic records that exist.
If you recall (its documented in the Transcript). Tina came in a said 'I think he's going to jump soon', or something to that affect. That was radioed in to everyone by Scott. That set the stage for everyone being alert to an imminent jump. But, how seriously did they take this? Were they actually keeping track minute by minute? According to just about everyone they suspected something had happened but nobody was 100% sure, and Anderson says they discussed it (the oscillations and then pressure spike) before calling it in then finally after some discussion Rataczak called it in abruptly! Rataczak even says "he jumped some time probably 5-10 minutes after our last communication with him". That's about as precise as it gets which goes back to the question 'how diligent were they being after Tina came in saying 'he's getting ready to jump sometime soon' ?
I think there is more to this story than any of the principles are telling publicly. Whatever principles testified to or told H or didn't tell H at some date, in 1976 H called a reporter and stated publicly that the FBI had revised the jump time and place which he stated was now "12 miles north of Portland". H then retires 4 years later...
And 'yes'. Anything JT knows or has came in years later from H vs. firsthand witness. JT is a spectator in this whole thing! O0 Many of JT's claims have been shown to be uninformed and untrue.
This is my general view of the subject, as well, Georger. Especially that the principals are holding back on information.
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R99 wrote: "My limited jumping experience was in the early 1960s and used a surplus WW2 canopy that had a 5-TU modification (I don't know if this was a C-9 or what). And I also always knew when I hit the ground."
Bet it was actually a post WW2 surplus C 9 28 ft round ripstop canopy. 5 TU was a very common mod for the C 9. Could have been a larger 32 ft T-10 paratrooper canopy but it would have let you down pretty gently compared to the C 9's harsh "arrival".
If it was multi color it was almost certainly a C 9. Do you recall colors and patterns?
377
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R99 wrote: "My limited jumping experience was in the early 1960s and used a surplus WW2 canopy that had a 5-TU modification (I don't know if this was a C-9 or what). And I also always knew when I hit the ground."
Bet it was actually a post WW2 surplus C 9 28 ft round ripstop canopy. 5 TU was a very common mod for the C 9. Could have been a larger 32 ft T-10 paratrooper canopy but it would have let you down pretty gently compared to the C 9's harsh "arrival".
If it was multi color it was almost certainly a C 9. Do you recall colors and patterns?
377
It was definitely a 28 foot round ripstop canopy and was difficult to get into the pack with the deployment sleeve. Amazingly enough, I can't remember the colors exactly. I think the canopy was entirely white but the deployment sleeve may, or may not, have been olive.
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28 ft round ripstop? C 9! Express elevator going down to ground level, all aboard. ;)
I too struggled with that hassle of trying to get a sleeved C 9 into a standard pack. Eventually got closing flap extensions installed and packing became so much easier.
I can't tell you what a relief it was to transition into more modern canopies that didn't land so damned hard. The only things I miss about C 9s are the nearly silent rides down and the beauty of the sun shining down though those colored ripstop panels, like stained glass.
Squares with their high flying speeds, generate a lot of noise coming down. Also the double surface squares just can't light up the way a sunlit C 9 could.
377
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28 ft round ripstop? C 9! Express elevator going down to ground level, all aboard. ;)
I too struggled with that hassle of trying to get a sleeved C 9 into a standard pack. Eventually got closing flap extensions installed and packing became so much easier.
I can't tell you what a relief it was to transition into more modern canopies that didn't land so damned hard. The only things I miss about C 9s are the nearly silent rides down and the beauty of the sun shining down though those colored ripstop panels, like stained glass.
Squares with their high flying speeds, generate a lot of noise coming down. Also the double surface squares just can't light up the way a sunlit C 9 could.
377
In the early 1960s, the Para-Commanders were just being introduced and they had a price of close to $1000.00. That compares to about $40.00 for my surplus military backpack.
I think someone, or some organization, donated money to the US Skydiving Team so they could buy PCs for the Internationals that were held about 1964 or so.
If the PCs hadn't been so expensive then, and if I hadn't spent a lot of time on business in the California desert at that time and gotten interested in something else, then my skydiving career would probably have been quite a bit longer. After my descent on the reserve, I did give some thought to whether I valued my life at more than $40.00. The answer was "yes" and that is why I wanted to get a PC.
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$40? Man I must have really overpaid. My first rig (main and belly reserve) was 100% surplus and cost me $50.
I was always 2 gens behind. I got started in jumping as a college student and kept the thrifty outlook after graduation. I was jumping surplus gear well into the 70s. Went to dirt cheap used PCs when everyone else was jumping squares and mothballing their older gear. But when I hit middle age and started making some money, I saw false economy in jumping yesterday's gear. Today I jump Triathlon mains and PD reserves. Nice landings, dependable. Still, never bought a brand new car and never bought a brand new rig. Cheap dies hard.
I think Cooper jumped a 28 ft C 9 but it's possible that it was a Navy 26 ft Conical. Either would have been a good choice for a high speed exit. Bruce actually knows more about which Norjack chutes were where than I do.
377
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All I really know is that's Cooper jumped with some white thingy that had strings attached...
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$40? Man I must have really overpaid. My first rig (main and belly reserve) was 100% surplus and cost me $50.
I was always 2 gens behind. I got started in jumping as a college student and kept the thrifty outlook after graduation. I was jumping surplus gear well into the 70s. Went to dirt cheap used PCs when everyone else was jumping squares and mothballing their older gear. But when I hit middle age and started making some money, I saw false economy in jumping yesterday's gear. Today I jump Triathlon mains and PD reserves. Nice landings, dependable. Still, never bought a brand new car and never bought a brand new rig. Cheap dies hard.
I think Cooper jumped a 28 ft C 9 but it's possible that it was a Navy 26 ft Conical. Either would have been a good choice for a high speed exit. Bruce actually knows more about which Norjack chutes were where than I do.
377
I actually worked for a government organization on the east coast at that time and I could never find a reserve parachute to purchase. So I always used a reserve my instructor owned. After my mishap, the instructor got my autograph in his log book and whatever refreshments he wanted although I don't remember what they were. That was more than 50 years ago.
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R99 wrote: "After my mishap, the instructor got my autograph in his log book and whatever refreshments he wanted although I don't remember what they were. That was more than 50 years ago."
Ya never forget your first reserve ride. I remember mine like it was yesterday. I think it was actually 1972. A dirt cheap surplus 26 ft Navy Conical saved my life.
I sure wish I knew if Cooper actually looked at packing cards. That would tell me a LOT. Tosaw and Himmelsbach disagreed about this important detail.
377
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727 in rough service, flying cargo to dirt strips in Africa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ6M5heqC9Y
377
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727 in rough service, flying cargo to dirt strips in Africa.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZ6M5heqC9Y
377
What is a 727 like that worth?
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What is a 727 like that worth?
http://www.globalplanesearch.com/listing/aircraft-for-sale/Splash/Boeing-727/216857
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Anywhere from $100,000 to $350,000 depending on engine and component times remaining before overhaul is required. Asking prices mean nothing, the market for 727s is very soft since they require 3 crew in the cockpit and have 3 engines to overhaul. The exceptions are the exec mods with a full VALSAN upgrade. They still command high prices. 727 is a FAST plane even by today's standards and some rich owners like that speed a lot. VALSAN and other companies have made hush kit and engine upgrade mods, and even added winglets for drag reduction. There were plans to eliminate the FE position but I don't think that expensive mod made it to market. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/rohr-relaunches-valsan-727-re-engineing-programme-11862/
Pretty cheap home brewed cruise missile if you buy a timed out one that is still running OK. Put in a GPS coupled 3D autopilot and bail out after takeoff. Better remember to remove the Cooper Vane first.
377
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Anywhere from $100,000 to $350,000 depending on engine and component times remaining before overhaul is required. Asking prices mean nothing, the market for 727s is very soft since they require 3 crew in the cockpit and have 3 engines to overhaul. The exceptions are the exec mods with a full VALSAN upgrade. They still command high prices. 727 is a FAST plane even by today's standards and some rich owners like that speed a lot. VALSAN and other companies have made hush kit and engine upgrade mods, and even added winglets for drag reduction. There were plans to eliminate the FE position but I don't think that expensive mod made it to market. https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/rohr-relaunches-valsan-727-re-engineing-programme-11862/
Pretty cheap home brewed cruise missile if you buy a timed out one that is still running OK. Put in a GPS coupled 3D autopilot and bail out after takeoff. Better remember to remove the Cooper Vane first.
377
There was a TV show on cable a few years ago about a group who bought a 727 and deliberately crashed it in an experiment. I think the crash was done at a remote dirt strip in Mexico. The flight crew consisted of a captain who had a lot of parachuting experience and was the last person off the aircraft. The copilot and flight engineer didn't have parachute experience so they were hooked up to tandem jump instructors and bailed out as soon as possible. After the captain jumped, the airliner was "flown" by remote control from another aircraft into the dirt strip.
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Will Rollins makes a lot out of reports of someone walking around the roads in Ariel on the night of the hijacking; obviously the FBI would have talked to those witnesses. Are there any comments from FBI agents who talked to these witnesses? What did the investigators think of these reports?
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Will Rollins makes a lot out of reports of someone walking around the roads in Ariel on the night of the hijacking; obviously the FBI would have talked to those witnesses. Are there any comments from FBI agents who talked to these witnesses? What did the investigators think of these reports?
Keep an open mind when you hear of such reports. It was cold and raining in the Ariel area that night and I frankly doubt anyone was out in the weather without a valid reason. Or to put it another way, if Cooper survived the jump, and landed in the Ariel area, he was probably interested in getting out of the weather.
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Will Rollins makes a lot out of reports of someone walking around the roads in Ariel on the night of the hijacking; obviously the FBI would have talked to those witnesses. Are there any comments from FBI agents who talked to these witnesses? What did the investigators think of these reports?
Maybe Bruce interviewed some of these people? Otherwise there are only newspaper reports to go on.
Do a search at Dropzone.
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Shutter: I come at the Cooper case from the opposite end and rather than figuring out who DB is, I know who he is and did so from the start in the first year following Norjak when we were contacted by the FBI. I was pretty sure Sheridan Peterson did the job as he was in planning the caper when he lived at our home for one month about 9 years before Norjak. Yes, he planned the caper very well and thought of most every thing and that is why he has never been caught. I told the FBI Agent White that I was sure Sheridan did the job and why. It is interesting that the FBI were on to him that quickly following Norjak but they were interested in all the Smoke Jumpers at that time as it would have taken the skills of a Smoke Jumper to do it. However, I did not become sure that Sheridan was DB Coooper until February of 2016 when my brain figured out that his alibi had to be phony ant the phony part had to be that he could not have been delivering one of his two children in Nepal and do the Norjak job too. So, I checked the public records with Persopo.com and found the revealing information that none of Sheridan's children were born in the same year as Norjak. That means he lied to the FBI (a Federal Crime with jail time) about where he was during Norjak.
I passed my new information on to the Seattle FBI Curtis Eng and expected the case would be quickly solved in 2016. The FBI however decided to announce in the 4 hour History Channel show that they were closing the case unsolved.
So, the question is why did Curtis Eng do that when he had all he needed to solve the case? I suspect that Sheridan was working for the CIA when in Vietnam as he said all the other ex-Smoke Jumpers were doing in Vietnam. Did Curtis Eng cover-up the case for Sheridan because he was CIA at one time? We will probably never know unless some top official in the US Government start making the FBI stop covering-up their cases and opens them up for the public to see. That means our DB COOPER FORUM will just die on the vine unless the FBI starts working for us.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
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Shutter: I come at the Cooper case from the opposite end and rather than figuring out who DB is, I know who he is and did so from the start in the first year following Norjak when we were contacted by the FBI. I was pretty sure Sheridan Peterson did the job as he was in planning the caper when he lived at our home for one month about 9 years before Norjak. Yes, he planned the caper very well and thought of most every thing and that is why he has never been caught. I told the FBI Agent White that I was sure Sheridan did the job and why. It is interesting that the FBI were on to him that quickly following Norjak but they were interested in all the Smoke Jumpers at that time as it would have taken the skills of a Smoke Jumper to do it. However, I did not become sure that Sheridan was DB Coooper until February of 2016 when my brain figured out that his alibi had to be phony ant the phony part had to be that he could not have been delivering one of his two children in Nepal and do the Norjak job too. So, I checked the public records with Persopo.com and found the revealing information that none of Sheridan's children were born in the same year as Norjak. That means he lied to the FBI (a Federal Crime with jail time) about where he was during Norjak.
I passed my new information on to the Seattle FBI Curtis Eng and expected the case would be quickly solved in 2016. The FBI however decided to announce in the 4 hour History Channel show that they were closing the case unsolved.
So, the question is why did Curtis Eng do that when he had all he needed to solve the case? I suspect that Sheridan was working for the CIA when in Vietnam as he said all the other ex-Smoke Jumpers were doing in Vietnam. Did Curtis Eng cover-up the case for Sheridan because he was CIA at one time? We will probably never know unless some top official in the US Government start making the FBI stop covering-up their cases and opens them up for the public to see. That means our DB COOPER FORUM will just die on the vine unless the FBI starts working for us.
Bob Sailshaw
sailshaw00@gmail.com
And that means the gravity will cease to function and the planets will go off hurtling into space!
Good luck Gipper.
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Will Rollins makes a lot out of reports of someone walking around the roads in Ariel on the night of the hijacking; obviously the FBI would have talked to those witnesses. Are there any comments from FBI agents who talked to these witnesses? What did the investigators think of these reports?
Maybe Bruce interviewed some of these people? Otherwise there are only newspaper reports to go on.
Do a search at Dropzone.
Eye-Witnesses
The short answer is "No," I haven't interviewed anyone who says they saw a man/plane/etc. in the Ariel area on the night in question.
The longer answer is that I would like to, and at present the best shot I have at doing that is to accompany Bill Rollins when he comes out to Cooper Country to further establish his theories. He has a lead on the daughter of someone who claims to have seen a man walking the road. And he'll have a vehicle...
Further, the only person I have spoken with who was definitely in the area is Dona Elliott, but sadly, I don't consider her a top-notch witness in terms of reliably and consistency. To wit:
- Was the rain really coming down sideways, and could she really not see across the street from her home in Amboy?
- Was the plane really at 3-4,000 feet? How did she hear the thing with the rain going sideways?
Tom Colbert is apparently looking into this area of research to peg Airborne Bob at a hide-away airport in Amboy...
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The transcripts tell a different story on altitude. I don't think anyone would be able to hear a plane while a downpour is occurring. it doesn't make sense. same with strange people walking around...
A plane at 4,000 isn't that loud to begin with. I live in the flight pattern of Fort LauderdaleHollywood International. the planes are somewhat in the same altitude they are claiming to have heard 305. I can barely hear them inside, and nothing when it's raining hard.
5280 feet is one mile...
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Will Rollins makes a lot out of reports of someone walking around the roads in Ariel on the night of the hijacking; obviously the FBI would have talked to those witnesses. Are there any comments from FBI agents who talked to these witnesses? What did the investigators think of these reports?
Maybe Bruce interviewed some of these people? Otherwise there are only newspaper reports to go on.
Do a search at Dropzone.
Eye-Witnesses
The short answer is "No," I haven't interviewed anyone who says they saw a man/plane/etc. in the Ariel area on the night in question.
The longer answer is that I would like to, and at present the best shot I have at doing that is to accompany Bill Rollins when he comes out to Cooper Country to further establish his theories. He has a lead on the daughter of someone who claims to have seen a man walking the road. And he'll have a vehicle...
Further, the only person I have spoken with who was definitely in the area is Dona Elliott, but sadly, I don't consider her a top-notch witness in terms of reliably and consistency. To wit:
- Was the rain really coming down sideways, and could she really not see across the street from her home in Amboy?
- Was the plane really at 3-4,000 feet? How did she hear the thing with the rain going sideways?
Tom Colbert is apparently looking into this area of research to peg Airborne Bob at a hide-away airport in Amboy...
Bruce,
The surface wind in the Portland/Vancouver area that evening was about 10 MPH. This can be checked on "Weather Underground". So the light rain was NOT going sideways.
The airliner reached 10,000 feet Above Sea Level before it got to the Malay Intersection and stayed at that altitude, or very close to it, until it got down to Northern California where it went up to 11,000 feet in order to clear the mountains between it and Reno.
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I generally concur with your reports, 99 and Shut. Hence, I am skeptical on ol' Dona's commentary. I loved the gal, but I think she added more color than substance to the story.
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Hello everyone been following the DB Cooper case for some time.
Has anyone ever spoke about how he may of gotten to the Portland airport the day of the hijacking?
Did he take a taxi,bus did someone drop him off, drive his own car?
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Hello everyone been following the DB Cooper case for some time.
Has anyone ever spoke about how he may of gotten to the Portland airport the day of the hijacking?
Did he take a taxi,bus did someone drop him off, drive his own car?
Hello, and welcome MrMax...
The idea of how Cooper got to Portland has been discussed, but nobody has ever come to any conclusion. since we don't really know, we can only speculate...lots of twisty turns with this case...
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If you haven't stopped by our website, you might want to read the FBI files on the case. we also have loads of other information not found on other sites...
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
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Hello everyone been following the DB Cooper case for some time.
Has anyone ever spoke about how he may of gotten to the Portland airport the day of the hijacking?
Did he take a taxi,bus did someone drop him off, drive his own car?
A search was supposedly done at Portland and in Vancouver. People of all types from all walks of life interviewed. Let's call it a 'canvas'. The same was done at Eugene albeit smaller, by all reports. .... and in other locations and venues. Tacoma, for instance. People searching included the FBI, Sheriff's departments, city police, companies, the military, ... and individuals trying to help. Private individuals called in tips from all over the country... the result was evidently nothing.
The FBI developed a 'favorites list' but those people were all cleared.
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Hello everyone been following the DB Cooper case for some time.
Has anyone ever spoke about how he may of gotten to the Portland airport the day of the hijacking?
Did he take a taxi,bus did someone drop him off, drive his own car?
As I understand the Cooper literature, how DB Cooper got to Portland airport has never been conclusively determined. My sources for saying that include Larry Carr's commentary at the DZ, Geoffrey Gray's book, Skyjack, informal discussions with other Cooper researchers about their interactions with FBI agents, such as Galen Cook, and of course the whole Cooper library from authors: Calame and Rhodes, Himmelsbach, Tosaw, etc.
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Having recently read Gunther's book DB Cooper:What Really Happened, and perusing all these other suspects that do not fit, the new information about the tie, fits well with LeClair, as he is, by far, in my opinion, the most likely of the known suspects.
The book was ridiculed when it first came out, and was dismissed... but evidence that came out well after publication, does point, and fits, as LeClair being Cooper. I am utterly amazed how everyone is looking the other way from this guy.
Everything, especially of the behavior of LeClair and especially Clara... the psycology and motivation are all very reasonable, and logical.
Gunther deliberately changed details as to protect the two sources, as he agreed....
Assuming it is LeClair.... to find him, one should contact Gunther's heirs to see if they have the original data provided by LeClair and Clara.....and then do a search based on that.... If its not available, then one should start with searching the Paratrooper records, and isolating all those Canadian born (gunther said London, Ontario which likely means its not there but in eastern Canada)... for this seems one of things that Gunther didn't shield... and then isolate the ones who went to a public university in on the east coast on the GI Bill (Gunther said it was Rutgers, so I figure it'd be on the east coast, but definitely not Rutgers for having said it). Then, of the few on the list, find the one who disappeared from his family.... those seem to me, the data points that Gunther didn't obfuscate.
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Page 51 of the documents seem to conflict with the timing on the transcripts...If I'm reading this correct they are implying that they are in the area of Toledo?
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Hello everyone been following the DB Cooper case for some time.
Has anyone ever spoke about how he may of gotten to the Portland airport the day of the hijacking?
Did he take a taxi,bus did someone drop him off, drive his own car?
As I understand the Cooper literature, how DB Cooper got to Portland airport has never been conclusively determined. My sources for saying that include Larry Carr's commentary at the DZ, Geoffrey Gray's book, Skyjack, informal discussions with other Cooper researchers about their interactions with FBI agents, such as Galen Cook, and of course the whole Cooper library from authors: Calame and Rhodes, Himmelsbach, Tosaw, etc.
Something that I have always wondered about, maybe a simple explanation..
When he purchased the ticket, how was the Hijacker assured the plane was a 727 with aft stairs..
Was the plane model published in 1971? Did NWA always use the same plane model on routes?
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Hello everyone been following the DB Cooper case for some time.
Has anyone ever spoke about how he may of gotten to the Portland airport the day of the hijacking?
Did he take a taxi,bus did someone drop him off, drive his own car?
As I understand the Cooper literature, how DB Cooper got to Portland airport has never been conclusively determined. My sources for saying that include Larry Carr's commentary at the DZ, Geoffrey Gray's book, Skyjack, informal discussions with other Cooper researchers about their interactions with FBI agents, such as Galen Cook, and of course the whole Cooper library from authors: Calame and Rhodes, Himmelsbach, Tosaw, etc.
Something that I have always wondered about, maybe a simple explanation..
When he purchased the ticket, how was the Hijacker assured the plane was a 727 with aft stairs..
Was the plane model published in 1971? Did NWA always use the same plane model on routes?
In the 1971 time frame, the airlines jointly published a telephone book sized collection of all the cities that were served by airlines, the flights into and out of those cities including arrival and departure times, and the equipment that was used. If different size aircraft were used on different days it was so noted in that schedule book and the book itself was updated about every couple of months or so.
Cooper probably used that very book to determine the place that would be the most convenient for him to board a 727 (all of which had aft stairs) and he specifically asked the clerk at the NWA counter at PIA if the inbound airliner (which was slightly late and hadn't arrived when he bought the ticket) was a 727. The clerk told him that it was a 727, meaning no last minute switches in equipment, so Cooper was assured that he was getting the airliner he wanted.
During the wait to board the airliner, Cooper was in a waiting room with the other people who were boarding in Portland. After getting on the airliner, Cooper had a chance to view the people in the cabin that were through passengers. He obviously did not recognize anyone he knew. So he had the 727 he wanted and a cabin full of strangers. He then gave Flo the hijack note as the plane was taking off. If Cooper had recognized anyone in the cabin, he would have cancelled his plans to hijack the aircraft and simply gotten off in Seattle and started planning for another attempt.
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Hello everyone been following the DB Cooper case for some time.
Has anyone ever spoke about how he may of gotten to the Portland airport the day of the hijacking?
Did he take a taxi,bus did someone drop him off, drive his own car?
As I understand the Cooper literature, how DB Cooper got to Portland airport has never been conclusively determined. My sources for saying that include Larry Carr's commentary at the DZ, Geoffrey Gray's book, Skyjack, informal discussions with other Cooper researchers about their interactions with FBI agents, such as Galen Cook, and of course the whole Cooper library from authors: Calame and Rhodes, Himmelsbach, Tosaw, etc.
Something that I have always wondered about, maybe a simple explanation..
When he purchased the ticket, how was the Hijacker assured the plane was a 727 with aft stairs..
Was the plane model published in 1971? Did NWA always use the same plane model on routes?
He asked if it was a 727 coming.
He could have seen a schedule like this at some airport, or asked about late afternoon schedules for the upcoming Thanksgiving holiday . You can see flt 305 is listed. But the late afternoon flt Cooper took was a recent addition. He may have simply called several airports to find out what flights were going to be available late afternoon the day before Thanksgiving. Remember, he told Tina it was the 'right plane, right place and time'. This may have been a spur of the moment decision on his part after thinking about it and looking for an opportunity, for some time.
The FBI canvased the Portland area and could find nobody who id'd seeing Cooper before, in the city or at the airport. Canvases were also done in Eugene, Tacoma, and Seattle, and in other venues ...
Here is a NWO 727 seating arrangement advert.
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I did find a schedule.. credit Snowmann..
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I did find a schedule.. credit Snowmann..
But who knows if he ever saw these - or the Cooper comic, for that matter. It's all speculation.
Nobody was able to connect him to Portland, PDX, or the city of Portland ... and people tried to find any connection or ID. He could have located this time and place from afar then showed up and asked 'is this a 727 coming in?'
I assume he asked about it being a 727 'before' he bought the ticket, but Im not sure about that. The rest is history.
ps* I wonder what he would have done had he been unable to get any parachutes once on the plane? :)) Or if they had told him it would take 10 hours or maybe nobody would supply them to him!
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I did find a schedule.. credit Snowmann..
But who knows if he ever saw these - or the Cooper comic, for that matter. It's all speculation.
Nobody was able to connect him to Portland, PDX, or the city of Portland ... and people tried to find any connection or ID. He could have located this time and place from afar then showed up and asked 'is this a 727 coming in?'
I assume he asked about it being a 727 'before' he bought the ticket, but Im not sure about that. The rest is history.
The flight schedule books that I have described above could probably be found in any medium size library as well as Joint Airline Ticket Offices (JATO) on military bases and large federal agencies and commercial businesses. I have used the JATOs at government military and civilian agencies to plan trips, both personal and business, as well as buy tickets for personal travel. Tickets for business travel were secured through our office personnel but came from the JATOs also.
To repeat, Cooper could have easily determined the aircraft that was scheduled for the Portland to Seattle flight without asking anyone. Asking the NWA clerk if it was a 727 means that Cooper already knew a 727 was scheduled. He was just double checking.
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I did find a schedule.. credit Snowmann..
But who knows if he ever saw these - or the Cooper comic, for that matter. It's all speculation.
Nobody was able to connect him to Portland, PDX, or the city of Portland ... and people tried to find any connection or ID. He could have located this time and place from afar then showed up and asked 'is this a 727 coming in?'
I assume he asked about it being a 727 'before' he bought the ticket, but Im not sure about that. The rest is history.
The flight schedule books that I have described above could probably be found in any medium size library as well as Joint Airline Ticket Offices (JATO) on military bases and large federal agencies and commercial businesses. I have used the JATOs at government military and civilian agencies to plan trips, both personal and business, as well as buy tickets for personal travel. Tickets for business travel were secured through our office personnel but came from the JATOs also.
To repeat, Cooper could have easily determined the aircraft that was scheduled for the Portland to Seattle flight without asking anyone. Asking the NWA clerk if it was a 727 means that Cooper already knew a 727 was scheduled. He was just double checking.
If he had already known he wouldnt have had to ask.
Had he bought the ticket before he asked? ;) If he had already bought the ticket he either assumed it or thought he knew it. Maybe it didnt matter! He wasn;t bringing any parachutes with him. Maybe he had a plan B, and C and D ?
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I did find a schedule.. credit Snowmann..
But who knows if he ever saw these - or the Cooper comic, for that matter. It's all speculation.
Nobody was able to connect him to Portland, PDX, or the city of Portland ... and people tried to find any connection or ID. He could have located this time and place from afar then showed up and asked 'is this a 727 coming in?'
I assume he asked about it being a 727 'before' he bought the ticket, but Im not sure about that. The rest is history.
The flight schedule books that I have described above could probably be found in any medium size library as well as Joint Airline Ticket Offices (JATO) on military bases and large federal agencies and commercial businesses. I have used the JATOs at government military and civilian agencies to plan trips, both personal and business, as well as buy tickets for personal travel. Tickets for business travel were secured through our office personnel but came from the JATOs also.
To repeat, Cooper could have easily determined the aircraft that was scheduled for the Portland to Seattle flight without asking anyone. Asking the NWA clerk if it was a 727 means that Cooper already knew a 727 was scheduled. He was just double checking.
If he had already known he wouldnt have had to ask.
Had he bought the ticket before he asked? ;) If he had already bought the ticket he either assumed it or thought he knew it. Maybe it didnt matter! He wasn;t bringing any parachutes with him. Maybe he had a plan B, and C and D ?
In asking the ticket agent, Cooper was only attempting to confirm that the scheduled 727 was the aircraft incoming and that there had not been any last minute changes in the scheduled equipment.
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I did find a schedule.. credit Snowmann..
But who knows if he ever saw these - or the Cooper comic, for that matter. It's all speculation.
Nobody was able to connect him to Portland, PDX, or the city of Portland ... and people tried to find any connection or ID. He could have located this time and place from afar then showed up and asked 'is this a 727 coming in?'
I assume he asked about it being a 727 'before' he bought the ticket, but Im not sure about that. The rest is history.
The flight schedule books that I have described above could probably be found in any medium size library as well as Joint Airline Ticket Offices (JATO) on military bases and large federal agencies and commercial businesses. I have used the JATOs at government military and civilian agencies to plan trips, both personal and business, as well as buy tickets for personal travel. Tickets for business travel were secured through our office personnel but came from the JATOs also.
To repeat, Cooper could have easily determined the aircraft that was scheduled for the Portland to Seattle flight without asking anyone. Asking the NWA clerk if it was a 727 means that Cooper already knew a 727 was scheduled. He was just double checking.
If he had already known he wouldnt have had to ask.
Had he bought the ticket before he asked? ;) If he had already bought the ticket he either assumed it or thought he knew it. Maybe it didnt matter! He wasn;t bringing any parachutes with him. Maybe he had a plan B, and C and D ?
In asking the ticket agent, Cooper was only attempting to confirm that the scheduled 727 was the aircraft incoming and that there had not been any last minute changes in the scheduled equipment.
and like you said, if it wasn't the right model plane he would have just exited in Seattle and nobody would ever have known about it.
I was researching the BAC 1-11 which also had rear stairs, to see if it had ever been jumped from or if it was a "known" possibility
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I did find a schedule.. credit Snowmann..
But who knows if he ever saw these - or the Cooper comic, for that matter. It's all speculation.
Nobody was able to connect him to Portland, PDX, or the city of Portland ... and people tried to find any connection or ID. He could have located this time and place from afar then showed up and asked 'is this a 727 coming in?'
I assume he asked about it being a 727 'before' he bought the ticket, but Im not sure about that. The rest is history.
The flight schedule books that I have described above could probably be found in any medium size library as well as Joint Airline Ticket Offices (JATO) on military bases and large federal agencies and commercial businesses. I have used the JATOs at government military and civilian agencies to plan trips, both personal and business, as well as buy tickets for personal travel. Tickets for business travel were secured through our office personnel but came from the JATOs also.
To repeat, Cooper could have easily determined the aircraft that was scheduled for the Portland to Seattle flight without asking anyone. Asking the NWA clerk if it was a 727 means that Cooper already knew a 727 was scheduled. He was just double checking.
If he had already known he wouldnt have had to ask.
Had he bought the ticket before he asked? ;) If he had already bought the ticket he either assumed it or thought he knew it. Maybe it didnt matter! He wasn;t bringing any parachutes with him. Maybe he had a plan B, and C and D ?
In asking the ticket agent, Cooper was only attempting to confirm that the scheduled 727 was the aircraft incoming and that there had not been any last minute changes in the scheduled equipment.
and like you said, if it wasn't the right model plane he would have just exited in Seattle and nobody would ever have known about it.
I was researching the BAC 1-11 which also had rear stairs, to see if it had ever been jumped from or if it was a "known" possibility
Several airliners in the 1960s and 1970s, including the DC-9/MD-80 series, had aft stairs. But the 727 was apparently the only one that did not have some kind of locking mechanism to prevent the stairs from being lowered in flight.
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Does anyone know how many flights from Seattle to Portland were made that day in the hours prior to the hijacking? I'm sure that information is out there (possibly even posted/discussed here previously?)
Much has been made about where Cooper was from and how he got to the Portland airport. Being such a short flight, there's a big possibility he started his journey in Seattle that morning, boarded a flight to Portland and then went from there. He may have wanted to jump much sooner than he actually did (as evidenced by wanting to take off with the aft stairs down and communicating to the crew fairly early in the flight that he couldn't get the stairs down). That suggests he wanted out of the plane closer to Seattle.
Was there a large number of flights from Seattle to Portland that morning? Just a couple?
Part 2 of my question is ---- I've read about the FBI talking to bus drivers and cab drivers and other transportation workers in the Portland area, trying to determine if anyone remembered Cooper and figuring out how he got to the airport. They even canvassed the airport parking lot looking for abandoned cars.
Was this same thing done with transportation workers in Seattle and the Seattle airport parking lot?
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Not that I'm aware of, Dukie. But I get most of my info on these kinds of subjects from GG, here, the DZ, and odd conversations with principals. The message I get is that Portland was the object of most scrutiny.
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Does anyone know how many flights from Seattle to Portland were made that day in the hours prior to the hijacking? I'm sure that information is out there (possibly even posted/discussed here previously?
Cooper's response was "it was at the right place and time"
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Not that I'm aware of, Dukie. But I get most of my info on these kinds of subjects from GG, here, the DZ, and odd conversations with principals. The message I get is that Portland was the object of most scrutiny.
Dukie?
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.
Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared? He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack? Try another day? Really -- after what we know about him?
Meyer
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.
Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared? He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack? Try another day? Really -- after what we know about him?
Meyer
The NWA 727 flight between Portland and Seattle that was hijacked had only been started about three months earlier (August I believe) and information on that flight, including the fact that it was a 727, was widely distributed in 1971. Further, Cooper specifically double checked with the ticket agent that it was a 727 that was inbound. This means that the hijacking, as actually done, was planned within the August to November time frame.
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.
Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared? He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack? Try another day? Really -- after what we know about him?
Meyer
727's were all over the place in 1971..Cooper stated it was at the right place and time. where he came from is the question...
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.
Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared? He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack? Try another day? Really -- after what we know about him?
Meyer
My point was that posters seem to be obsessing over how he knew the flight was going to use a 727 when it's not that important to the case. Go back to the last couple of pages to the discussion about it to see. Think about the next step and implications to his plan. Where there other parts of the plan dependent on precise timing, a general time window or was it purely a crime of opportunity.
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.
Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared? He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack? Try another day? Really -- after what we know about him?
Meyer
My point was that posters seem to be obsessing over how he knew the flight was going to use a 727 when it's not that important to the case. Go back to the last couple of pages to the discussion about it to see. Think about the next step and implications to his plan. Where there other parts of the plan dependent on precise timing, a general time window or was it purely a crime of opportunity.
Mack,
The 727 is absolutely crucial to the Cooper hijacking since it was the only airliner at that time that could lower the aft stairs in flight. That is why Cooper double checked the aircraft type with the ticket agent.
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.
Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared? He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack? Try another day? Really -- after what we know about him?
Meyer
My point was that posters seem to be obsessing over how he knew the flight was going to use a 727 when it's not that important to the case. Go back to the last couple of pages to the discussion about it to see. Think about the next step and implications to his plan. Where there other parts of the plan dependent on precise timing, a general time window or was it purely a crime of opportunity.
Mack,
The 727 is absolutely crucial to the Cooper hijacking since it was the only airliner at that time that could lower the aft stairs in flight. That is why Cooper double checked the aircraft type with the ticket agent.
and why Special Forces and Loadmaster Controller trainees stationed at McChord were using the 727 for training drops at Moses Lake ... during the same time period as the hijacking!
Hello! Hello! Earth to Cooperland! Is anybody out there listening? :rofl:
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What's the worst that would happen if it wasn't a 727 like he planned on? It would only hinder him if he needed to pull the hijack on that specific date or it was his last $20, otherwise he would just try again another day.
Do you really think this guy would come to a gunfight unprepared? He wouldn't know what kind of aircraft he was going to hijack? Try another day? Really -- after what we know about him?
Meyer
My point was that posters seem to be obsessing over how he knew the flight was going to use a 727 when it's not that important to the case. Go back to the last couple of pages to the discussion about it to see. Think about the next step and implications to his plan. Where there other parts of the plan dependent on precise timing, a general time window or was it purely a crime of opportunity.
Mack,
The 727 is absolutely crucial to the Cooper hijacking since it was the only airliner at that time that could lower the aft stairs in flight. That is why Cooper double checked the aircraft type with the ticket agent.
and why Special Forces and Loadmaster Controller trainees stationed at McChord were using the 727 for training drops at Moses Lake ... during the same time period as the hijacking!
Hello! Hello! Earth to Cooperland! Is anybody out there listening? :rofl:
That's right, there is rhyme to the reason, the 727 was chosen for a reason -- 727s are also known for their buoyancy. Meyer
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and why Special Forces and Loadmaster Controller trainees stationed at McChord were using the 727 for training drops at Moses Lake ... during the same time period as the hijacking!
This is the first time I am hearing this. And I recall reading something about McCoy doing specific training...this is significant..and was McCoy training there?
The other night I watched the film All the President's Men, regarding Watergate and the period around the hijacking. What really drew my interest is when the character Deep Throat played by Hal Holbrook explained to Woodward (Robert Redford) the profoundness of the blowback that was coming from everywhere. He explained it wasn't just about Watergate, but all the other illegal stuff going on with FBI CIA etc. Made me think of this caper. Lots of factions at the time doing cover illegal shit and this could have very well been one of them.
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If you are implying a "false flag", I doubt they would leave so much mystery. it would of been simple to use someone they could easily catch to complete the mission. then you have so many copycats following this that would make the mission a failure...Bob Knoss used this theory often...
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and why Special Forces and Loadmaster Controller trainees stationed at McChord were using the 727 for training drops at Moses Lake ... during the same time period as the hijacking!
This is the first time I am hearing this. And I recall reading something about McCoy doing specific training...this is significant..and was McCoy training there?
The other night I watched the film All the President's Men, regarding Watergate and the period around the hijacking. What really drew my interest is when the character Deep Throat played by Hal Holbrook explained to Woodward (Robert Redford) the profoundness of the blowback that was coming from everywhere. He explained it wasn't just about Watergate, but all the other illegal stuff going on with FBI CIA etc. Made me think of this caper. Lots of factions at the time doing cover illegal shit and this could have very well been one of them.
Here is my original post - its in the Suspects Thread. June 03, 2017, 03:49:55 PM - You can read people's replies there. I dont believe McCoy was part of that training group or ever trained there.
Possible NEW suspect pool?
Quotes: "There was a static drop training range near George, WA (near Moses Lake) in 1971, used by a small group of USAF Special Forces "combat controllers” and by the Army for Loadmaster training. They shared a building at McChord and often trained together at Moses Lake. The program ‘presumably’ included drops from the back of the 727 at Moses Lake. I don’t know if this program ever came under focus when they were looking for DB Cooper, but I did hear that at one time the FBI was looking at the possibility that Cooper had Loadmaster connections. Carr brought that up perhaps because he found it mentioned in a few files. But, here is the rest of the story.
Although the group was small, these were fairly high level trainees and the program at McChord was important.
The USAF Special Forces "combat controllers" did precision freefall drops under various conditions and at night at Moses Lake. They would also drop in and observe or participate in the Loadmaster training sessions being conducted and help provide wind data to the drop aircraft, and guide the air drop in by radio. Their officer in charge was Capt. Wilson."
" M/Sgt R.D. (Wally) had the crew of load masters. They had an "aerial delivery" shop in a corner of a warehouse sort of building at McChord, where they prepared stuff to go out and repacked their cargo chutes after each mission. Their work was important for training Loadmasters going to Vietnam. The group of “USAF Special Forces combat controllers" shared a corner of the same building and each group kept the other informed and did mission planning together. The Loadmaster program was important. Several Army paratroopers from Fort Bragg were always assigned to this unit for Loadmaster training and you had to have previous paratrooper training in order to be accepted into the program. A lot of these people in both programs were training for operations in Vietnam. "
"I know Wilson and Wally got involved during the hijacking case in ‘71. He received the request for chutes and passed it down to Wally’s shop. But then he checked with his superiors and was told not to provide the chutes or participate because full clearance had not been received. The person on the phone hadn’t even identified himself! So we didn’t supply the chutes and they had to go to private sources for those. Then within a couple of days, the matter was cleared up and the Air Force did cooperate, and several groups were formed to cooperate with the FBI and NWA in the Cooper hijacking matter. The FBI and NWA were helpless without our help.
People wondered if the hijacker was one of the people associated with the Moses Lake training operations. That was a very unique group of people with the same skills the hijacker spoke of and demonstrated. I’m not sure how that was checked out."
*Note: Special thanks to a couple of people who helped with this.
photo attached ...
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Good afternoon everyone! Got a few questions and maybe a thought or two.
1. Anyone know if the NTSB did an investigation into the incident? If they did; I am wondering if there are any discrepancies with the FBI report. Also if they did...how in the hell do we get a copy of that?!
2. Does anyone have 1970's aerial photos of PDX?
3. Speaking of PDX; what in the heck is up with the carpets there? Apparently you can buy clothes and ties of it.
4. Anyone want to speculate on how many "dry runs" DBC did prior to the curtain going up? Id be willing to bet that he did quite a few. I am thinking he was quite calculated and methodical. I wonder if this avenue was ever investigated?
5. I know everyone says he jumped out blindly and could not know the area but I kind of disagree with that. I feel that the an added bonus of slowing the aircraft down was to compare it to a "practice run." For an example; DBC was able to fly a Piper aircraft on roughly the same route with a wide open throttle. This would be a similar speed to the NWO aircraft with DBC's requested specific. With this; he could "guesstimate" where he would be at; at any given time. I just feel that he was too prepared and planned to leave that to luck.
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Good afternoon everyone! Got a few questions and maybe a thought or two.
1. Anyone know if the NTSB did an investigation into the incident? If they did; I am wondering if there are any discrepancies with the FBI report. Also if they did...how in the hell do we get a copy of that?!
2. Does anyone have 1970's aerial photos of PDX?
3. Speaking of PDX; what in the heck is up with the carpets there? Apparently you can buy clothes and ties of it.
4. Anyone want to speculate on how many "dry runs" DBC did prior to the curtain going up? Id be willing to bet that he did quite a few. I am thinking he was quite calculated and methodical. I wonder if this avenue was ever investigated?
5. I know everyone says he jumped out blindly and could not know the area but I kind of disagree with that. I feel that the an added bonus of slowing the aircraft down was to compare it to a "practice run." For an example; DBC was able to fly a Piper aircraft on roughly the same route with a wide open throttle. This would be a similar speed to the NWO aircraft with DBC's requested specific. With this; he could "guesstimate" where he would be at; at any given time. I just feel that he was too prepared and planned to leave that to luck.
4 & 5:
I've never seen any official document which even speculated about these questions - much less provided any real evidence in these directions. The closest thing is the R2 report that someone was dropping flares from a small airplane near Eugene the weekend before the skyjacking at Portland. Himmelsbach thought Cooper's bomb was composed of road flares. Mitchel was shown a large number of photos of suspects from the Eugene area.
If Cooper was in training at Moses Lake, he wouldn't need much training. All he would have to do is keep track of flights, planes, and airline schedules. He told Tina her plane was simply the 'right plane at the right place at the right time', and nothing more - so apparently he had been waiting/watching for the right opportunity in his plan.
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Anyone want to speculate on how many "dry runs" DBC did prior to the curtain going up?
Many here would likely guess at zero, as they take everything Cooper said or did at face value only. They seemingly think he was some sort of simpleton who got astronomically lucky in getting away with it. Any time it is suggested that this was well-planned from beginning to end, gets nearly ridiculed here... and to those who are still reading...if the shoe fits...
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Anyone want to speculate on how many "dry runs" DBC did prior to the curtain going up?
Many here would likely guess at zero, as they take everything Cooper said or did at face value only. They seemingly think he was some sort of simpleton who got astronomically lucky in getting away with it. Any time it is suggested that this was well-planned from beginning to end, gets nearly ridiculed here... and to those who are still reading...if the shoe fits...
Since the above is apparently addressed to me, let me reply at some length. What purpose would a dry run serve?
Cooper knew from the outset that he would be making a night jump and he knew that the weather was bad when he bought the ticket in Portland. He knew that it was raining in Portland since he was wearing a rain coat and just looking up would have given him a realistic view of the clouds.
He could also see the clouds as the airliner climbed up through them on the way to Seattle, but he had actually hijacked the airliner before it even got off the ground.
There is no way that Cooper could have known his location, even approximately, after the airliner took off from Seattle and climbed above the clouds into the night sky. So when Cooper did jump, he had no way of determining what was below him until he was below the lowest cloud level in a pitch black night.
Cooper can thank NWA personnel for saving his bacon up to the point where he jumped. J. Edgar Hoover did not like to be shown up by some two-bit hijacker and probably would have told his agents in Seattle to storm the plane and kill the hijacker if NWA had not intervened. Some members of this thread have had their closest relatives killed as "collateral damage" in shoot outs between FBI agents and would be aircraft hijackers.
The fact that Cooper did not specifically ask for sky-diver parachute rigs, with back and chest parachutes, indicates a lack of planning and/or knowledge. He was aware of some of the performance data for the 727 and that indicates he had some training or experience with that specific aircraft.
Cooper did know that the 727 aft stairs could be lowered in flight and that the 727 could take off with the stairs unlocked. Nevertheless, Cooper did not know how to lower those stairs himself. This suggests to me that Cooper's 727 experience was on the modified 727s that Boeing prepared for Southeast Asia operations. And I have stated several times over the years, Cooper was probably a former military or CIA type who had worked either directly for the USA Government or one of its contractors.
But again, I see nothing that would require a dry run.
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Shutter, is there any possibility that Tom Colbert and Mark Zaid could do some bitching to the FBI and FAA about the redactions in the Seattle ATC transcripts? Even with two interventions by my Congressman (actually Congressperson at this time), the FBI and FAA gave me the royal run around. :(
Tom was reading the forum. when I woke up this morning I received an email from Tom stating the following..
Thanks...just saw the post about getting us to help on Robert99, and the Seattle ATC transcripts...we haven't had ONE redaction lifted in the hundreds of pages so far, the Feds are stubborn. Sorry...night...TJC
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Shutter, is there any possibility that Tom Colbert and Mark Zaid could do some bitching to the FBI and FAA about the redactions in the Seattle ATC transcripts? Even with two interventions by my Congressman (actually Congressperson at this time), the FBI and FAA gave me the royal run around. :(
Tom was reading the forum. when I woke up this morning I received an email from Tom stating the following..
Thanks...just saw the post about getting us to help on Robert99, and the Seattle ATC transcripts...we haven't had ONE redaction lifted in the hundreds of pages so far, the Feds are stubborn. Sorry...night...TJC
TJC, Thanks for the reply.
Robert99
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Since the above is apparently addressed to me,
It wasn't. But thanks for the write-up.
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Anyone want to speculate on how many "dry runs" DBC did prior to the curtain going up?
Many here would likely guess at zero, as they take everything Cooper said or did at face value only. They seemingly think he was some sort of simpleton who got astronomically lucky in getting away with it. Any time it is suggested that this was well-planned from beginning to end, gets nearly ridiculed here... and to those who are still reading...if the shoe fits...
Since the above is apparently addressed to me, let me reply at some length. What purpose would a dry run serve?
Cooper knew from the outset that he would be making a night jump and he knew that the weather was bad when he bought the ticket in Portland. He knew that it was raining in Portland since he was wearing a rain coat and just looking up would have given him a realistic view of the clouds.
He could also see the clouds as the airliner climbed up through them on the way to Seattle, but he had actually hijacked the airliner before it even got off the ground.
There is no way that Cooper could have known his location, even approximately, after the airliner took off from Seattle and climbed above the clouds into the night sky. So when Cooper did jump, he had no way of determining what was below him until he was below the lowest cloud level in a pitch black night.
Cooper can thank NWA personnel for saving his bacon up to the point where he jumped. J. Edgar Hoover did not like to be shown up by some two-bit hijacker and probably would have told his agents in Seattle to storm the plane and kill the hijacker if NWA had not intervened. Some members of this thread have had their closest relatives killed as "collateral damage" in shoot outs between FBI agents and would be aircraft hijackers.
The fact that Cooper did not specifically ask for sky-diver parachute rigs, with back and chest parachutes, indicates a lack of planning and/or knowledge. He was aware of some of the performance data for the 727 and that indicates he had some training or experience with that specific aircraft.
Cooper did know that the 727 aft stairs could be lowered in flight and that the 727 could take off with the stairs unlocked. Nevertheless, Cooper did not know how to lower those stairs himself. This suggests to me that Cooper's 727 experience was on the modified 727s that Boeing prepared for Southeast Asia operations. And I have stated several times over the years, Cooper was probably a former military or CIA type who had worked either directly for the USA Government or one of its contractors.
But again, I see nothing that would require a dry run.
... all of which makes the Moses Lake Special Forces and Loadmaster Controller group more interesting.
Carr obviously came to the same conclusion - he just didn't say much about it when he was with us. I find that interesting. Carr knew (thought?) more than he was saying ?
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Anyone want to speculate on how many "dry runs" DBC did prior to the curtain going up?
Many here would likely guess at zero, as they take everything Cooper said or did at face value only. They seemingly think he was some sort of simpleton who got astronomically lucky in getting away with it. Any time it is suggested that this was well-planned from beginning to end, gets nearly ridiculed here... and to those who are still reading...if the shoe fits...
Since the above is apparently addressed to me, let me reply at some length. What purpose would a dry run serve?
Cooper knew from the outset that he would be making a night jump and he knew that the weather was bad when he bought the ticket in Portland. He knew that it was raining in Portland since he was wearing a rain coat and just looking up would have given him a realistic view of the clouds.
He could also see the clouds as the airliner climbed up through them on the way to Seattle, but he had actually hijacked the airliner before it even got off the ground.
There is no way that Cooper could have known his location, even approximately, after the airliner took off from Seattle and climbed above the clouds into the night sky. So when Cooper did jump, he had no way of determining what was below him until he was below the lowest cloud level in a pitch black night.
Cooper can thank NWA personnel for saving his bacon up to the point where he jumped. J. Edgar Hoover did not like to be shown up by some two-bit hijacker and probably would have told his agents in Seattle to storm the plane and kill the hijacker if NWA had not intervened. Some members of this thread have had their closest relatives killed as "collateral damage" in shoot outs between FBI agents and would be aircraft hijackers.
The fact that Cooper did not specifically ask for sky-diver parachute rigs, with back and chest parachutes, indicates a lack of planning and/or knowledge. He was aware of some of the performance data for the 727 and that indicates he had some training or experience with that specific aircraft.
Cooper did know that the 727 aft stairs could be lowered in flight and that the 727 could take off with the stairs unlocked. Nevertheless, Cooper did not know how to lower those stairs himself. This suggests to me that Cooper's 727 experience was on the modified 727s that Boeing prepared for Southeast Asia operations. And I have stated several times over the years, Cooper was probably a former military or CIA type who had worked either directly for the USA Government or one of its contractors.
But again, I see nothing that would require a dry run.
... all of which makes the Moses Lake Special Forces and Loadmaster Controller group more interesting.
Carr obviously came to the same conclusion - he just didn't say much about it when he was with us. I find that interesting. Carr knew (thought?) more than he was saying ?
Agreed.
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How come Cooper didn't seem all that concerned about when to jump? I think he might have wanted to jump early, like right out of Sea-Tac -- around JBLM or Olympia, but it didn't happen. Nonetheless, he didn't seem to get all that worried, stressed, or overly concerned that the jump got delayed. He didn't seem rushed about getting the aft stairs to deploy, and he didn't seem to be rushed about cutting cordage and getting packed and strapped for the jump. How come? One would think he would have a target area in mind, that he might feel rushed, maybe even panicked, so as to hit his "mark" in order to increase his chances for a successful escape once he was on the ground. I have yet to hear a plausible, reasonable, logical explanation. Leave pet theories, big egos, and outlandish conjectures at the door. What about this?
Meyer
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How come Cooper didn't seem all that concerned about when to jump? I think he might have wanted to jump early, like right out of Sea-Tac -- around JBLM or Olympia, but it didn't happen. Nonetheless, he didn't seem to get all that worried, stressed, or overly concerned that the jump got delayed. He didn't seem rushed about getting the aft stairs to deploy, and he didn't seem to be rushed about cutting cordage and getting packed and strapped for the jump. How come? One would think he would have a target area in mind, that he might feel rushed, maybe even panicked, so as to hit his "mark" in order to increase his chances for a successful escape once he was on the ground. I have yet to hear a plausible, reasonable, logical explanation. Leave pet theories, big egos, and outlandish conjectures at the door. What about this?
Meyer
I have wondered the same thing based on the same perspective - but then I am reminded that time changes for different observers. I wonder how the crew saw it? Smooth progression of events, fast vs slow... ? What was Cooper thinking and how did he perceive the passage of time? He's the one with the plan if there was one.
The independent variable is the velocity of the plane (which he tried to control) and its direction. We know he was aware of his surroundings - he identified places from the air.
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I apologize if this was posted somewhere previously but I was reading the FOIA pages that Shutter recently included on the website. I found something interesting about DBC potentially knowing his location. After reading it twice, it became even more interesting...especially the part about there being five distributors in Oregon and five in Washington. That is unless I have no idea what I am reading which is also a strong possibility.
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I apologize if this was posted somewhere previously but I was reading the FOIA pages that Shutter recently included on the website. I found something interesting about DBC potentially knowing his location. After reading it twice, it became even more interesting...especially the part about there being five distributors in Oregon and five in Washington. That is unless I have no idea what I am reading which is also a strong possibility.
The Marker Beacon Receiver is a part of the Instrument Landing System that was state-of-the-art in 1971. The marker beacon transmitters are low powered and transmit in a narrow vertical cone and are part of the localizer portion of the ILS system. They are installed off the approach end of runways that have an ILS approach procedure.
Marker beacon receivers have lights for an Outer Marker, Middle Marker, and an Inner Marker. But due to a change in FAA plans a long time ago, the Inner Marker was never used and I have never seen an Inner Marker light activate during an ILS approach.
Frequently, a low frequency "compass locater", which can be received by an ADF, is co-located with the Outer Marker (or in some instances with the Middle Marker) about 5+ miles from the end of the runway and on the localizer center line. So the compass locater can be used to help align your aircraft with the localizer and the markers give you your approximate distance from the end of the runway and your lateral position with respect to the localizer.
Compass locaters are also a great help in getting you to the airport vicinity during both good and bad weather. ;D
The hijacked airliner was never on an ILS approach until it got to Reno. Maybe they made an ILS approach from the north and maybe they didn't, but their first approach had to be broken off and they circled back around for a second approach.
A MARKER BEACON RECEIVER WOULD NOT BE ANY ASSISTANCE WHATSOEVER TO COOPER IN DETERMINING HIS LOCATION UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THE HIJACKED FLIGHT.
If anything, the FBI note just shows that they were completely out of their depth in investigating the Cooper hijacking. They should have put their egos aside and talked to some technical people as well as actual pilots. :)
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I apologize if this was posted somewhere previously but I was reading the FOIA pages that Shutter recently included on the website. I found something interesting about DBC potentially knowing his location. After reading it twice, it became even more interesting...especially the part about there being five distributors in Oregon and five in Washington. That is unless I have no idea what I am reading which is also a strong possibility.
The Marker Beacon Receiver is a part of the Instrument Landing System that was state-of-the-art in 1971. The marker beacon transmitters are low powered and transmit in a narrow vertical cone and are part of the localizer portion of the ILS system. They are installed off the approach end of runways that have an ILS approach procedure.
Marker beacon receivers have lights for an Outer Marker, Middle Marker, and an Inner Marker. But due to a change in FAA plans a long time ago, the Inner Marker was never used and I have never seen an Inner Marker light activate during an ILS approach.
Frequently, a low frequency "compass locater", which can be received by an ADF, is co-located with the Outer Marker (or in some instances with the Middle Marker) about 5+ miles from the end of the runway and on the localizer center line. So the compass locater can be used to help align your aircraft with the localizer and the markers give you your approximate distance from the end of the runway and your lateral position with respect to the localizer.
Compass locaters are also a great help in getting you to the airport vicinity during both good and bad weather. ;D
The hijacked airliner was never on an ILS approach until it got to Reno. Maybe they made an ILS approach from the north and maybe they didn't, but their first approach had to be broken off and they circled back around for a second approach.
A MARKER BEACON RECEIVER WOULD NOT BE ANY ASSISTANCE WHATSOEVER TO COOPER IN DETERMINING HIS LOCATION UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THE HIJACKED FLIGHT.
If anything, the FBI note just shows that they were completely out of their depth in investigating the Cooper hijacking. They should have put their egos aside and talked to some technical people as well as actual pilots. :)
If anything, the FBI note just shows that they were completely out of their depth in investigating the Cooper hijacking. They should have put their egos aside and talked to some technical people as well as actual pilots. :)
Or, they were just trying to consider any and all hypotheticals ... in and already difficult case where dots weren't connecting quickly ?
Most agents try to take things in stride as they happen. It's called the Fed Bur. of ... Investigation. The Cooper case opened Pandora's Box to speculation. Then money turns up at Tina Bar of all places! It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma...
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I apologize if this was posted somewhere previously but I was reading the FOIA pages that Shutter recently included on the website. I found something interesting about DBC potentially knowing his location. After reading it twice, it became even more interesting...especially the part about there being five distributors in Oregon and five in Washington. That is unless I have no idea what I am reading which is also a strong possibility.
The Marker Beacon Receiver is a part of the Instrument Landing System that was state-of-the-art in 1971. The marker beacon transmitters are low powered and transmit in a narrow vertical cone and are part of the localizer portion of the ILS system. They are installed off the approach end of runways that have an ILS approach procedure.
Marker beacon receivers have lights for an Outer Marker, Middle Marker, and an Inner Marker. But due to a change in FAA plans a long time ago, the Inner Marker was never used and I have never seen an Inner Marker light activate during an ILS approach.
Frequently, a low frequency "compass locater", which can be received by an ADF, is co-located with the Outer Marker (or in some instances with the Middle Marker) about 5+ miles from the end of the runway and on the localizer center line. So the compass locater can be used to help align your aircraft with the localizer and the markers give you your approximate distance from the end of the runway and your lateral position with respect to the localizer.
Compass locaters are also a great help in getting you to the airport vicinity during both good and bad weather. ;D
The hijacked airliner was never on an ILS approach until it got to Reno. Maybe they made an ILS approach from the north and maybe they didn't, but their first approach had to be broken off and they circled back around for a second approach.
A MARKER BEACON RECEIVER WOULD NOT BE ANY ASSISTANCE WHATSOEVER TO COOPER IN DETERMINING HIS LOCATION UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THE HIJACKED FLIGHT.
If anything, the FBI note just shows that they were completely out of their depth in investigating the Cooper hijacking. They should have put their egos aside and talked to some technical people as well as actual pilots. :)
If anything, the FBI note just shows that they were completely out of their depth in investigating the Cooper hijacking. They should have put their egos aside and talked to some technical people as well as actual pilots. :)
Or, they were just trying to consider any and all hypotheticals ... in and already difficult case where dots weren't connecting quickly ?
I don't know what dots they were trying to connect, but this hijacking is just simply NOT that complicated. Thousands of aeronautical engineers and pilots were working on more complicated problems ever day in 1971. My original estimate was that Cooper would be in jail by the end of the week (about three days after the hijacking).
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I apologize if this was posted somewhere previously but I was reading the FOIA pages that Shutter recently included on the website. I found something interesting about DBC potentially knowing his location. After reading it twice, it became even more interesting...especially the part about there being five distributors in Oregon and five in Washington. That is unless I have no idea what I am reading which is also a strong possibility.
The Marker Beacon Receiver is a part of the Instrument Landing System that was state-of-the-art in 1971. The marker beacon transmitters are low powered and transmit in a narrow vertical cone and are part of the localizer portion of the ILS system. They are installed off the approach end of runways that have an ILS approach procedure.
Marker beacon receivers have lights for an Outer Marker, Middle Marker, and an Inner Marker. But due to a change in FAA plans a long time ago, the Inner Marker was never used and I have never seen an Inner Marker light activate during an ILS approach.
Frequently, a low frequency "compass locater", which can be received by an ADF, is co-located with the Outer Marker (or in some instances with the Middle Marker) about 5+ miles from the end of the runway and on the localizer center line. So the compass locater can be used to help align your aircraft with the localizer and the markers give you your approximate distance from the end of the runway and your lateral position with respect to the localizer.
Compass locaters are also a great help in getting you to the airport vicinity during both good and bad weather. ;D
The hijacked airliner was never on an ILS approach until it got to Reno. Maybe they made an ILS approach from the north and maybe they didn't, but their first approach had to be broken off and they circled back around for a second approach.
A MARKER BEACON RECEIVER WOULD NOT BE ANY ASSISTANCE WHATSOEVER TO COOPER IN DETERMINING HIS LOCATION UNDER THE CIRCUMSTANCES SURROUNDING THE HIJACKED FLIGHT.
If anything, the FBI note just shows that they were completely out of their depth in investigating the Cooper hijacking. They should have put their egos aside and talked to some technical people as well as actual pilots. :)
If anything, the FBI note just shows that they were completely out of their depth in investigating the Cooper hijacking. They should have put their egos aside and talked to some technical people as well as actual pilots. :)
Or, they were just trying to consider any and all hypotheticals ... in and already difficult case where dots weren't connecting quickly ?
I don't know what dots they were trying to connect, but this hijacking is just simply NOT that complicated. Thousands of aeronautical engineers and pilots were working on more complicated problems ever day in 1971. My original estimate was that Cooper would be in jail by the end of the week (about three days after the hijacking).
Some people thought (hoped) that, others weren't so sure including the people searching near Woodland the first two days. Cooper was already a step or two ahead. The money at Tina Bar may indicate he hit a wall ... especially if the money came up with the dredging in '74?
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Georger said: It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma...
The absolute best quote I've ever heard on this or the DZ forum in all these years. The best description of our situation here. I'm stealing it, Georger. You wax eloquent prose. Classic!
Meyer
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I think that was Winston Churchill, wasn't it?
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I think that was Winston Churchill, wasn't it?
Yes. And I think he was referring to the Soviet Union under Stalin.
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Georger said: It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma...
The absolute best quote I've ever heard on this or the DZ forum in all these years. The best description of our situation here. I'm stealing it, Georger. You wax eloquent prose. Classic!
Meyer
Meyer you are welcome to it - the quote is from Churchill - referring to Stalin and the Soviet Union, WWII.
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Georger said: It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma...
The absolute best quote I've ever heard on this or the DZ forum in all these years. The best description of our situation here. I'm stealing it, Georger. You wax eloquent prose. Classic!
Meyer
Meyer you are welcome to it - the quote is from Churchill - referring to Stalin and the Soviet Union, WWII.
I figured it came from someone in high places, but I heard it from you, Georger, here, on this forum, in the now. So, I'm giving you the credit. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
Meyer
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Hello all. New to the Forum so forgive me for repetitions. Lots of good info here by the way. My compliments to all.
Have a question about Capt. William Scott: States here he flew in the China-Burma-Indian theater during WW2. Does anyone have any other detailed info (or where it can be found) about his service there? (i.e., his squadron info, assignments, etc.)
Thank you for your time.
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Hello all. New to the Forum so forgive me for repetitions. Lots of good info here by the way. My compliments to all.
Have a question about Capt. William Scott: States here he flew in the China-Burma-Indian theater during WW2. Does anyone have any other detailed info (or where it can be found) about his service there? (i.e., his squadron info, assignments, etc.)
Thank you for your time.
I don't know specifically, but I would say it is likely Scott was flying for the Air Transport Command, a lot of civilian airline pilots ended up there:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transport_Command (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transport_Command)
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Hello all. New to the Forum so forgive me for repetitions. Lots of good info here by the way. My compliments to all.
Have a question about Capt. William Scott: States here he flew in the China-Burma-Indian theater during WW2. Does anyone have any other detailed info (or where it can be found) about his service there? (i.e., his squadron info, assignments, etc.)
Thank you for your time.
Try here to start - they have Scott's full vita. http://www.nwahistory.org/ Use the contact email form. If this fails let us know and I will refer you on to other sources... https://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/018.html
From my notes: 'In 1972, a year after the hijacking, Scott lost his son, grandson, daughter-in-law and her grandmother in a plane crash near St. Louis. Scott, who had begun flying in 1944 for the Army Air Force, flew 34 years for Northwest. He shunned interviews after the hijacking, which remains unsolved. He died on Sunday of prostate cancer at his home in Green Valley, Ariz.' (NYTimes obit)
...
I have nothing specific to his service in WWII.
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Might get some leads here: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1013604272025970&id=131312776921795
377
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Might get some leads here: https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=1013604272025970&id=131312776921795
377
He isn't listed in those pages ...
Maybe Bruce and Cook have better info from SA Eng or the Director of the FBI who Cook says communicates with with him regularly and mixes with socially? Maybe Cook had Scott's name removed from the list to protect the Cooper case? ;)
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There were other volumes of names of HUMP pilots not included in that webpage so we cant rule Scott out just yet.
That WW2 flying through the Himalayas in overloaded iced up cargo planes was among the most treacherous in the history of aviation. One of my commercial fishing buddies has loaned me his dad's photos, logs and memorabilia of his days as a HUMP pilot flying C 46s and C 47s. Harrowing stuff, pushing cargo out the rear door of an iced up C 46 that couldn't maintain altitude and was threading its way though Himalayan peaks in a blinding snowstorm at night. This pilot was awarded the DFC for his extraordinary airmanship. Many died flying that route.
377
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There were other volumes of names of HUMP pilots not included in that webpage so we cant rule Scott out just yet.
That WW2 flying through the Himalayas in overloaded iced up cargo planes was among the most treacherous in the history of aviation. One of my commercial fishing buddies has loaned me his dad's photos, logs and memorabilia of his days as a HUMP pilot flying C 46s and C 47s. Harrowing stuff, pushing cargo out the rear door of an iced up C 46 that couldn't maintain altitude and was threading its way though Himalayan peaks in a blinding snowstorm at night. This pilot was awarded the DFC for his extraordinary airmanship. Many died flying that route.
377
I understand that the most reliable navigational device for flying the HUMP was looking for crashed C-46s below.
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Still looking at the intersection of USFS Smoke Jumpers, skydivers and CIA front airlines like SAT and Air America. Interesting that Boeing's 727 airdrop flight tests came to light when Don Kirlin, organizer of the World Free Fall Convention needed to get tech data to satisfy the FAA that 727 jumps could be made safely. Somehow Don, a former military pilot, knew about the Boeing data. When he needed a C 130 Herc for dropping skydivers at his convention, guess what company supplied one? Southern Air Transport, same outfit that did the 727 airdrops over Thailand.
Small world...
377
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There were other volumes of names of HUMP pilots not included in that webpage so we cant rule Scott out just yet.
That WW2 flying through the Himalayas in overloaded iced up cargo planes was among the most treacherous in the history of aviation. One of my commercial fishing buddies has loaned me his dad's photos, logs and memorabilia of his days as a HUMP pilot flying C 46s and C 47s. Harrowing stuff, pushing cargo out the rear door of an iced up C 46 that couldn't maintain altitude and was threading its way though Himalayan peaks in a blinding snowstorm at night. This pilot was awarded the DFC for his extraordinary airmanship. Many died flying that route.
377
Thanks 377. Georger posted a link to the national archives. After weeding through a number of 'Scotts' narrowed it down to this one (see the lengthy link below). Year of birth matches and -if I am correct- he was from the upper Midwest.
https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record-detail.jsp?dt=893&mtch=14&cat=WR26&tf=F&sc=24994,24995,24996,24998,24997,24993,24981,24983&q=william+a.+scott&bc=,sl,fd&txt_24983=20&op_24983=0&nfo_24983=V,2,1900&rpp=50&pg=1&rid=1403759&rlst=6709664,6801053,7263332,1403759 (https://aad.archives.gov/aad/record-detail.jsp?dt=893&mtch=14&cat=WR26&tf=F&sc=24994,24995,24996,24998,24997,24993,24981,24983&q=william+a.+scott&bc=,sl,fd&txt_24983=20&op_24983=0&nfo_24983=V,2,1900&rpp=50&pg=1&rid=1403759&rlst=6709664,6801053,7263332,1403759)
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Does anyone know the identifiable feature or characteristic of Cooper according to the college student sitting across the aisle from Cooper? It seems I read somewhere he had an unusual feature according to him but not seen this since.
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Does anyone know the identifiable feature or characteristic of Cooper according to the college student sitting across the aisle from Cooper? It seems I read somewhere he had an unusual feature according to him but not seen this since.
In an interview he gave with the WSHS he referred to Cooper as having a double chin, like a "turkey gobble" if this is what you mean. Believe he said something similar to the FBI back in '71.
Other members here please correct me if I am wrong.
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Does anyone know the identifiable feature or characteristic of Cooper according to the college student sitting across the aisle from Cooper? It seems I read somewhere he had an unusual feature according to him but not seen this since.
In an interview he gave with the WSHS he referred to Cooper as having a double chin, like a "turkey gobble" if this is what you mean. Believe he said something similar to the FBI back in '71.
Other members here please correct me if I am wrong.
You are correct. Mitchell, the college student, reportedly said that Cooper had a "turkey gobble" neck. No one else who saw Cooper apparently made such an observation.
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Does anyone know the identifiable feature or characteristic of Cooper according to the college student sitting across the aisle from Cooper? It seems I read somewhere he had an unusual feature according to him but not seen this since.
In an interview he gave with the WSHS he referred to Cooper as having a double chin, like a "turkey gobble" if this is what you mean. Believe he said something similar to the FBI back in '71.
Other members here please correct me if I am wrong.
"turkey gobble" referred to a hanging flap or pouch of skin BELOW the person's chin extending to the neck area. It's a poor somewhat confusing phrase to use and the fact they did not include this in the sketches and description is plain stupid and defeating! The logic for withholding this detail, Gray says, was to distinguish fakes from the real Cooper. But how many witnesses included the turkey neck in their descriptions? We will never know. Some did and some didn't? But, either he did have this feature or he didn't! A valid comparison would be to ask: did he have a right arm or didn't he!? It is not a superficial worthless detail! And this debate about it is stupid beyond belief.
The correct term is Turkey Neck not turkey gobble. Did he have a turkey penis? The feature is a layer of subcutaneous fat located below the chin bone at the anterior neck which is covered by sagging or stretched skin, creating a redundancy, making the owner appear as if he/she has a second or third chin or a sagging pouch hanging below the chin which is independent of the neck but which adjoins to the neck.
BTW such features can be associated with aging.
Keep in mind, Mitchell gave a totally different description of Cooper's cloths and dress! Russet red suit jacket. Shabby disheveled appearance as if he had slept in the streets over night. Everyone else seemed to miss these glaring details. The young stud Mitchel says he was pissed the stews were paying ("the old guy") Cooper so much attention while ignoring the young college stud Mitchel - Mitchel confesses. Mitchel says he kept looking over at Cooper and Mucklow etal basically asking: what has this guy got that I dont have ... to get a date! ? The whole thing leaves one wondering just where the hormone driven young stud Mitchel's head was at ... but Gray is quick to pick up on this one lone witnesses' description for all the controversy it can generate ... at the Cooperland horse betting Race Track! :rofl: Where is Gray's head at? :nono:
Of all the suspects so far Mel Wilson's chin-neck looks the most like what Gray is describing? And look at Mel's right ear in this mug shot - what is going on with that!?
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Does anyone know the identifiable feature or characteristic of Cooper according to the college student sitting across the aisle from Cooper? It seems I read somewhere he had an unusual feature according to him but not seen this since.
In an interview he gave with the WSHS he referred to Cooper as having a double chin, like a "turkey gobble" if this is what you mean. Believe he said something similar to the FBI back in '71.
Other members here please correct me if I am wrong.
You are correct. Mitchell, the college student, reportedly said that Cooper had a "turkey gobble" neck. No one else who saw Cooper apparently made such an observation.
Its one more possible detail we can't put in perspective. Does the FBI have a perspective on this, or ten thousand perspectives? Ten thousand agents on the head of a pin.
Which authority do we listen to? Or is it a million people with a million opinions and facts?
I guess we will have to ask BRIAN INGRAM who was 8 years old at the time. :congrats:
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Another option is Bill Mitchell is lying.
The more I study the behavior of the passengers and the crew post-skyjacking I grow more suspect of the narratives presented by Mitchell and the flight attendants.
Increasingly, the Cooper characteristics attributed to Mitchell suggest a "revisionist" view of DB Cooper. Gray adds to this scenario immeasurably by publicly calling DBC a " schlub," a Yiddish term for a guy who is disheveled, sloppy, and off-putting.
Bill Mitchell says he was sitting in 18B, but no one else can confirm that. Further, FBI documents place Robert Gregory in 18C, and also DB Cooper in 18C, which is what Himmelsbach writes and others tout. Clearly there is confusion on this issue.
Fellow passenger Mike Cooper is a solid guy, whereas Bill Mitchell is not, for he is finicky about whom he talks with and why. Mike says he was sitting near or next to Cooper, but doesn't recall exactly what row - only that it was across the aisle from Coop. I problem-solved the seating scenarios with Mike and suggested that he might have been in 17 A or B, and he said, "maybe." When I asked Mike if he remembers the folks who sat around him, he said he couldn't, which I find disappointing but at least it's a honest answer when so many comments from principals do not feel 100% truthful.
Schlubs and Turkey Necks are not the image of a conventional business man, as posited by so many eye-witnesses. Certainly not the image of the "gentleman" who sat next to Tina for hours and whom some passengers thought was a NWO VIP dead-heading back to Seattle for the holidays, as Mike Cooper believed.
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Keep in mind, Mitchell gave a totally different description of Cooper's cloths and dress! Russet red suit jacket....
My information is different, Georger. Robert Gregory is the passenger identified in FBI docs (and GG) as the guy saying DB Cooper was wearing a russet sports coat - along with having marcelled hair, being 35-38 years old, and standing only 5'8". All outliers.
Mitchell's descriptions of Cooper are actually vague - an old guy with a turkey gobble.
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Of all the suspects so far Mel Wilson's chin-neck looks the most like what Gray is describing?
Ill offer up Wolfgang here....
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Keep in mind, Mitchell gave a totally different description of Cooper's cloths and dress! Russet red suit jacket....
My information is different, Georger. Robert Gregory is the passenger identified in FBI docs (and GG) as the guy saying DB Cooper was wearing a russet sports coat - along with having marcelled hair, being 35-38 years old, and standing only 5'8". All outliers.
Mitchell's descriptions of Cooper are actually vague - an old guy with a turkey gobble.
ok tnx for the update on the update and the update on the update ................... is there any other conversation going on in Humanity you wish to DOMINATE? :conspiracy:
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No. I am very content DOMINATING this conversation.
Thanks for asking.
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Does anyone know the identifiable feature or characteristic of Cooper according to the college student sitting across the aisle from Cooper? It seems I read somewhere he had an unusual feature according to him but not seen this since.
In an interview he gave with the WSHS he referred to Cooper as having a double chin, like a "turkey gobble" if this is what you mean. Believe he said something similar to the FBI back in '71.
Other members here please correct me if I am wrong.
"turkey gobble" referred to a hanging flap or pouch of skin BELOW the person's chin extending to the neck area. It's a poor somewhat confusing phrase to use and the fact they did not include this in the sketches and description is plain stupid and defeating! The logic for withholding this detail, Gray says, was to distinguish fakes from the real Cooper. But how many witnesses included the turkey neck in their descriptions? We will never know. Some did and some didn't? But, either he did have this feature or he didn't! A valid comparison would be to ask: did he have a right arm or didn't he!? It is not a superficial worthless detail! And this debate about it is stupid beyond belief.
The correct term is Turkey Neck not turkey gobble. Did he have a turkey penis? The feature is a layer of subcutaneous fat located below the chin bone at the anterior neck which is covered by sagging or stretched skin, creating a redundancy, making the owner appear as if he/she has a second or third chin or a sagging pouch hanging below the chin which is independent of the neck but which adjoins to the neck.
BTW such features can be associated with aging.
Keep in mind, Mitchell gave a totally different description of Cooper's cloths and dress! Russet red suit jacket. Shabby disheveled appearance as if he had slept in the streets over night. Everyone else seemed to miss these glaring details. The young stud Mitchel says he was pissed the stews were paying ("the old guy") Cooper so much attention while ignoring the young college stud Mitchel - Mitchel confesses. Mitchel says he kept looking over at Cooper and Mucklow etal basically asking: what has this guy got that I dont have ... to get a date! ? The whole thing leaves one wondering just where the hormone driven young stud Mitchel's head was at ... but Gray is quick to pick up on this one lone witnesses' description for all the controversy it can generate ... at the Cooperland horse betting Race Track! :rofl: Where is Gray's head at? :nono:
Of all the suspects so far Mel Wilson's chin-neck looks the most like what Gray is describing? And look at Mel's right ear in this mug shot - what is going on with that!?
And every time I get down in the dumps, my friends always say, "Meyer, keep your chins up."
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Good one, ML. First chuckle of the day!
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Good one, ML. First chuckle of the day!
Take a can of Campbell's soup to your local food pantry for Puerto Rico! Maybe you will feel better.
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Usually I'm the guy going to the Food Bank for my own can o' soup. But the experiences of survival in Puerto Rico these days are akin to what is forecasted for the PNW if we ever have The Big One.
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Speaking of disaster relief, I used to be a regular contributor to the Red Cross but no more. They lack street smarts and have lost my trust. I still give, but to other more efficient orgs, not them. I gave generously to the Red Cross for Haiti relief and it looks like most of it went into the pockets of corrupt officials. The charity will not provide a list of specific programs it ran, how much they cost or what their expenses were. So "yes miss, I do have a grudge."
http://www.npr.org/2015/06/03/411524156/in-search-of-the-red-cross-500-million-in-haiti-relief
377
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Speaking of disaster relief, I used to be a regular contributor to the Red Cross but no more. They lack street smarts and have lost my trust. I still give, but to other more efficient orgs, not them. I gave generously to the Red Cross for Haiti relief and it looks like most of it went into the pockets of corrupt officials. The charity will not provide a list of specific programs it ran, how much they cost or what their expenses were. So "yes miss, I do have a grudge."
http://www.npr.org/2015/06/03/411524156/in-search-of-the-red-cross-500-million-in-haiti-relief
377
I know where you're coming from. Privatisation has been a disaster.
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I had a dream last night that the only way to really distribute supplies in Puerto Rico was by using street gangs, drug lords, and local mafia. I hear the relief boats are lying at anchor awaiting terminals - not confirmed, though.
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Do any of you Dzone guys know who created this composite?
Unsolved Mysteries Composite (https://i.pinimg.com/736x/63/f2/cf/63f2cf78c4fa24f6d3cff11bafdaff85--unsolved-mysteries-famous-people.jpg)
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Do any of you Dzone guys know who created this composite?
Unsolved Mysteries Composite (https://i.pinimg.com/736x/63/f2/cf/63f2cf78c4fa24f6d3cff11bafdaff85--unsolved-mysteries-famous-people.jpg)
some guy somewhere - it never made it into the common literature so finding the source may be impossible...
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Do any of you Dzone guys know who created this composite?
Unsolved Mysteries Composite (https://i.pinimg.com/736x/63/f2/cf/63f2cf78c4fa24f6d3cff11bafdaff85--unsolved-mysteries-famous-people.jpg)
try looking up the shows credits. IMDB, episode number etc.
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I had a dream last night that the only way to really distribute supplies in Puerto Rico was by using street gangs, drug lords, and local mafia. I hear the relief boats are lying at anchor awaiting terminals - not confirmed, though.
Where did this one come from?
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The Infinite Unknown.
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Bruce Smith vs. Tina Mucklow:
In 2011 Smith said in his Mountain News:
"Media access to Ms. Mucklow has been very limited, even initially. However, there are a few YouTube videos available where she gives a detailed and compelling report on her view of the skyjacking and its impact on herself, the crew, and her passengers."
Question: where are these videos you speak of? Can you give urls for them?
I want to hear for myself (and Im sure others do too!) "where Tina gives a detailed and compelling report on her view of the skyjacking and its impact on herself, the crew, and her passengers."
Somehow we missed this? Please play it again Sam.
Can we assume while we are waiting on you that Ms Mucklow utters a whole sentence in this "detailed and compelling report on her view of the skyjacking and its impact on herself, the crew, and her passengers." ?
I do hope you are not exaggerating and making this up!
;D
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Bruce Smith vs. Tina Mucklow:
In 2011 Smith said in his Mountain News:
"Media access to Ms. Mucklow has been very limited, even initially. However, there are a few YouTube videos available where she gives a detailed and compelling report on her view of the skyjacking and its impact on herself, the crew, and her passengers."
Question: where are these videos you speak of? Can you give urls for them?...
1. Reichenbach has begun to collect them, it seems, and he is one source:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Tina+Mucklow+%2b+DB+Cooper+videos&view=detail&mid=476C9526AF52A0523337476C9526AF52A0523337&FORM=VIRE
2. But I saw much higher quality videos - 5-7 years ago - of Tina being interviewed by CBS TV. I Googled "Tina Mucklow videos" and got right there. I'll explore and see if they are still available.
BTW: I am not in conflict with Tina. I don't see a "me vs. her" kind of thing. I see more of a dance. By the way II, the kind of work she does these days is exactly the kind of work I did back-when - activity therapy in a psych facility.
3. BTW III: Tina can now be access by an online celebrity search website: https://www.startiger.com/l?i=304763
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I had a dream last night that the only way to really distribute supplies in Puerto Rico was by using street gangs, drug lords, and local mafia. I hear the relief boats are lying at anchor awaiting terminals - not confirmed, though.
Where did this one come from?
Another bizarre post, irrelevant to the topic here. This is what I'm talking about....
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Bruce Smith vs. Tina Mucklow:
In 2011 Smith said in his Mountain News:
"Media access to Ms. Mucklow has been very limited, even initially. However, there are a few YouTube videos available where she gives a detailed and compelling report on her view of the skyjacking and its impact on herself, the crew, and her passengers."
Question: where are these videos you speak of? Can you give urls for them?...
1. Reichenbach has begun to collect them, it seems, and he is one source:
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Tina+Mucklow+%2b+DB+Cooper+videos&view=detail&mid=476C9526AF52A0523337476C9526AF52A0523337&FORM=VIRE
2. But I saw much higher quality videos - 5-7 years ago - of Tina being interviewed by CBS TV. I Googled "Tina Mucklow videos" and got right there. I'll explore and see if they are still available.
BTW: I am not in conflict with Tina. I don't see a "me vs. her" kind of thing. I see more of a dance. By the way II, the kind of work she does these days is exactly the kind of work I did back-when - activity therapy in a psych facility.
3. BTW III: Tina can now be access by an online celebrity search website: https://www.startiger.com/l?i=304763
I have viewed every video containing Tina I could find. Most 'moments' where Tina appears are brief and I can find no video or any other document where Tina " gives a detailed and compelling report on her view of the skyjacking and its impact on herself, the crew, and her passengers." Those are your words! It's hyperbolae on your part is all it is!
The only time I can find where Tina makes any personal expression is in her original television interview after the plane landed at Reno. Tina speaks in behalf of herself and the crew. Looking over at Rataczak she says, quote: "We had a horrifying time". Rataczak nods to confirm it. Here's the url, Smith. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG7Ku6VNdz4
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...I have viewed every video containing Tina I could find. Most 'moments' where Tina appears are brief and I can find no video or any other document where Tina " gives a detailed and compelling report on her view of the skyjacking and its impact on herself, the crew, and her passengers." Those are your words! It's hyperbolae on your part is all it is!
The only time I can find where Tina makes any personal expression is in her original television interview after the plane landed at Reno. Tina speaks in behalf of herself and the crew. Looking over at Rataczak she says, quote: "We had a horrifying time". Rataczak nods to confirm it. Here's the url, Smith. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG7Ku6VNdz4
The Reichenbach video listed above is a compellation of several videos about Tina. The one video that I think is most important - and from which a short clip is taken - is where she is sitting on a couch, in uniform, and talking comfortably in front of the camera, from CBS TV I believe. The original video of this segment was about three-four minutes long. Some of my characterizations of Tina can be observed in the Reichenbach video, albeit briefly.
Should I have included a link to that full video in my reportage at the Mountain News? Yup. That is a failing on my part.
But, to characterize my description of Tina's presentation as hyperbole is incorrect and provocative. At worst my words are incomplete without the link to the video to give fuller corroboration.
Your statements suggest that you are angry at me and have an agenda here that is not being satisfied. Wassup, Georger? What are you trying to discern about Tina? Or me?
BTW: The Reichenbach video was produced in part by Robert Blevins. We should be aware of all the alliances that are forming, or have been formed, in Cooper World.
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...I have viewed every video containing Tina I could find. Most 'moments' where Tina appears are brief and I can find no video or any other document where Tina " gives a detailed and compelling report on her view of the skyjacking and its impact on herself, the crew, and her passengers." Those are your words! It's hyperbolae on your part is all it is!
The only time I can find where Tina makes any personal expression is in her original television interview after the plane landed at Reno. Tina speaks in behalf of herself and the crew. Looking over at Rataczak she says, quote: "We had a horrifying time". Rataczak nods to confirm it. Here's the url, Smith. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG7Ku6VNdz4
The Reichenbach video listed above is a compellation of several videos about Tina. The one video that I think is most important - and from which a short clip is taken - is where she is sitting on a couch, in uniform, and talking comfortably in front of the camera, from CBS TV I believe. The original video of this segment was about three-four minutes long. Some of my characterizations of Tina can be observed in the Reichenbach video, albeit briefly.
Should I have included a link to that full video in my reportage at the Mountain News? Yup. That is a failing on my part.
But, to characterize my description of Tina's presentation as hyperbole is incorrect and provocative. At worst my words are incomplete without the link to the video to give fuller corroboration.
Your statements suggest that you are angry at me and have an agenda here that is not being satisfied. Wassup, Georger? What are you trying to discern about Tina? Or me?
BTW: The Reichenbach video was produced in part by Robert Blevins. We should be aware of all the alliances that are forming, or have been formed, in Cooper World.
Nobody seems to be able to find the video you mention. Who produced the video is of no consequence. Its the content of the video I want to see and hear. A long interview of Tina on a couch where she goes into detail about her feelings and psychological state during and after the hijacking .... :-\
My statements suggest that I am angry with you? No, just puzzled, perplexed. You are projecting again. Maybe you are projecting about Tina too. :) Everything is personal to you and maybe that's the problemo?
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I can't find the video that I watched about five-eight years ago, either. What can I say?
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I can't find the video that I watched about five-eight years ago, either. What can I say?
OK lets bypass that.
Have you got a detailed timeline for Tina's life from the hijacking until she got out of the convent (1979?), if thats the correct date? For example I know she did new interview with the FBI in late 1971 (Dec 1/2) ... those crew interviews were in the Gray file release as I recall it ... which should be in the vault here?
The reason for mine above is I never have tried to build a timeline vita for Tina, and I now have new FBI docs which talk about Tina being willing (and wanting) to give a new in-depth interview in late 1971. That may be the last Mucklow interview Tina gave ?
And, for that matter do you have vitas for all the crew members?
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...I have viewed every video containing Tina I could find. Most 'moments' where Tina appears are brief and I can find no video or any other document where Tina " gives a detailed and compelling report on her view of the skyjacking and its impact on herself, the crew, and her passengers." Those are your words! It's hyperbolae on your part is all it is!
The only time I can find where Tina makes any personal expression is in her original television interview after the plane landed at Reno. Tina speaks in behalf of herself and the crew. Looking over at Rataczak she says, quote: "We had a horrifying time". Rataczak nods to confirm it. Here's the url, Smith. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG7Ku6VNdz4
The Reichenbach video listed above is a compellation of several videos about Tina. The one video that I think is most important - and from which a short clip is taken - is where she is sitting on a couch, in uniform, and talking comfortably in front of the camera, from CBS TV I believe. The original video of this segment was about three-four minutes long. Some of my characterizations of Tina can be observed in the Reichenbach video, albeit briefly.
Should I have included a link to that full video in my reportage at the Mountain News? Yup. That is a failing on my part.
But, to characterize my description of Tina's presentation as hyperbole is incorrect and provocative. At worst my words are incomplete without the link to the video to give fuller corroboration.
Your statements suggest that you are angry at me and have an agenda here that is not being satisfied. Wassup, Georger? What are you trying to discern about Tina? Or me?
BTW: The Reichenbach video was produced in part by Robert Blevins. We should be aware of all the alliances that are forming, or have been formed, in Cooper World.
Nobody seems to be able to find the video you mention. Who produced the video is of no consequence. Its the content of the video I want to see and hear. A long interview of Tina on a couch where she goes into detail about her feelings and psychological state during and after the hijacking .... :-\
My statements suggest that I am angry with you? No, just puzzled, perplexed. You are projecting again. Maybe you are projecting about Tina too. :) Everything is personal to you and maybe that's the problemo?
And Bruce wonders why he has a credibility problem. Wonder no more. That's what we've been trying to tell ya, Brucie.
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...I have viewed every video containing Tina I could find. Most 'moments' where Tina appears are brief and I can find no video or any other document where Tina " gives a detailed and compelling report on her view of the skyjacking and its impact on herself, the crew, and her passengers." Those are your words! It's hyperbolae on your part is all it is!
The only time I can find where Tina makes any personal expression is in her original television interview after the plane landed at Reno. Tina speaks in behalf of herself and the crew. Looking over at Rataczak she says, quote: "We had a horrifying time". Rataczak nods to confirm it. Here's the url, Smith. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HG7Ku6VNdz4
The Reichenbach video listed above is a compellation of several videos about Tina. The one video that I think is most important - and from which a short clip is taken - is where she is sitting on a couch, in uniform, and talking comfortably in front of the camera, from CBS TV I believe. The original video of this segment was about three-four minutes long. Some of my characterizations of Tina can be observed in the Reichenbach video, albeit briefly.
Should I have included a link to that full video in my reportage at the Mountain News? Yup. That is a failing on my part.
But, to characterize my description of Tina's presentation as hyperbole is incorrect and provocative. At worst my words are incomplete without the link to the video to give fuller corroboration.
Your statements suggest that you are angry at me and have an agenda here that is not being satisfied. Wassup, Georger? What are you trying to discern about Tina? Or me?
BTW: The Reichenbach video was produced in part by Robert Blevins. We should be aware of all the alliances that are forming, or have been formed, in Cooper World.
Nobody seems to be able to find the video you mention. Who produced the video is of no consequence. Its the content of the video I want to see and hear. A long interview of Tina on a couch where she goes into detail about her feelings and psychological state during and after the hijacking .... :-\
My statements suggest that I am angry with you? No, just puzzled, perplexed. You are projecting again. Maybe you are projecting about Tina too. :) Everything is personal to you and maybe that's the problemo?
And Bruce wonders why he has a credibility problem. Wonder no more. That's what we've been trying to tell ya, Brucie.
The video was perhaps taken down, and never quite the decisive proof Bruce thought (or hoped) it was. And I dont say this as a criticism.
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I can't find the video that I watched about five-eight years ago, either. What can I say?
OK lets bypass that.
Have you got a detailed timeline for Tina's life from the hijacking until she got out of the convent (1979?), if thats the correct date? For example I know she did new interview with the FBI in late 1971 (Dec 1/2) ... those crew interviews were in the Gray file release as I recall it ... which should be in the vault here?
The reason for mine above is I never have tried to build a timeline vita for Tina, and I now have new FBI docs which talk about Tina being willing (and wanting) to give a new in-depth interview in late 1971. That may be the last Mucklow interview Tina gave ?
And, for that matter do you have vitas for all the crew members?
Here's the timeline I have for Tina:
1. December 5 (?), 1971. Second interview with FBI agents in Philly. She specifically says that Cooper asked for 200,000 in "cash."
2. 1971- 1973, circa. Continues to fly for NWO and even rooms with Flo with regularly. Basically, she resumes her pre-hijacking life.
3. 1973-1974, circa. Meets her husband at NWO. Name withheld upon request.
4. 1974-1975, circa. Marries her husband and they move to the Bay Area. It is my understanding that she stopped working for NWO at this time, or worked only intermittently.
5. 1975-1976, circa. Marriage ends and Tina moves to San Diego with Jane and Lee Dormuth. In the 2005-2010 period Galen conducted an extensive interview with Tina's now ex-husband, who made it clear he does not want to talk with any media.
6. 1976-1978, circa. No information.
7. 1978-1979, circa. Tina hospitalized at the Lutheran Hospital and Home in Gresham, Oregon. The stay is lengthy, months, possibly a year. The facility is now known as the Good Samaritan Society.
8. Spring, 1979, Tina is taken by Lee and Jane to the Carmel of Maria monastery in Green Hills, Oregon, just outside of Eugene.
9. Tina stays at the monastery, actually a cloistered convent for women, until 1991, circa.
10. 1985, circa. Interview with Richard Tosaw in the convent.
11. 1990, circa, phone interview with Russ Calame.
12. 1991-1992, Tina rumored to stay in the Eugene, OR area and attends college.
13. Mid-1990s, begins working as an activity therapist in a psych facility, where she continued to work until 2011 by my knowledge. I do not know if she continues to work there.
14. 2014, circa, moves from her long-time home in Springfield, OR, where I spoke with her briefly in 2011, to a new residence in central Oregon.
15. 2012, Participated in an interview with Paul Neveel, a freelance journalist and professional photographer working for the Eugene Weekly. In the interview Tina refuted almost this entire timeline. In the interview she claims to have flown regularly for NWO throughout the 1970s until her retirement ten years after the hijacking, presumably 1981, and during that time she mostly flew NWO routes to the Orient. Then she went into the convent for personal reasons, leaving in the early 1990s.
Neveel told me that one of her stipulations to doing the interview was to not ask about DB Cooper at all. Also, no mention of her hospitalization was made at all by either party.
Interesting tidbit: When Tina lived in Springfield her home was near the Willamette River. Directly across the river - on a thoroughfare known as "River Road" just north of Tina - resided LD Cooper in the last years of his life. Hence, LD Cooper died just a few miles away from Tina.
Most of the timelines mentioned here I learned from Galen, and bits and pieces of it were corroborated by the folks in Tina's orbit that I spoke with, such as the Mother Superior at the convent - Sister Saint-Onge - cousin Arlene Mucklow in Philly, Jane and Lee Dormuth, the folks associated with the Lankenau School for Girls in Philly where Jane and Tina went to high school, Bill Rataczak, and the HR staff at the Good Samaritan Society.
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My vita for the crew are not nearly as extensive as those provided by others here and at the DZ.
But here is what I know:
1. Alice Hancock married a NWO pilot. They lived for many years in the Minneapolis, MN area. She was still there up until the time I spoke with her in 2014. She and her husband are now divorced. I don't know how long Alice worked for NWO. She hung up the phone on me when I called.
2. Flo married a cop named Wheeler and lives in South Carolina. The exact city is being withheld to protect her privacy. I don't know how long she continued to work for NWO. She refuses all communication with everyone I know who has attempted to contact her, including Jo Weber, Galen, and other writers.
3. Bill Rataczak, Scotty, and Andy Anderson all went on to become NWO 747 captains and have distinguished careers. Scotty died in the 1990s of cancer. Bill Rataczak has communicated with many journalists, but not with me since 2009. I understand from Ralph Himmelsbach, with whom he is good friends, that BR is in failing health. But he looked pretty good in the HC docu. Andy Anderson moved to Hawaii upon retirement, and all communications with him there have failed.
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My vita for the crew are not nearly as extensive as those provided by others here and at the DZ.
But here is what I know:
1. Alice Hancock married a NWO pilot. They lived for many years in the Minneapolis, MN area. She was still there up until the time I spoke with her in 2014. She and her husband are now divorced. I don't know how long Alice worked for NWO. She hung up the phone on me when I called.
2. Flo married a cop named Wheeler and lives in South Carolina. The exact city is being withheld to protect her privacy. I don't know how long she continued to work for NWO. She refuses all communication with everyone I know who has attempted to contact her, including Jo Weber, Galen, and other writers.
3. Bill Rataczak, Scotty, and Andy Anderson all went on to become NWO 747 captains and have distinguished careers. Scotty died in the 1990s of cancer. Bill Rataczak has communicated with many journalists, but not with me since 2009. I understand from Ralph Himmelsbach, with whom he is good friends, that BR is in failing health. But he looked pretty good in the HC docu. Andy Anderson moved to Hawaii upon retirement, and all communications with him there have failed.
I understand that Captain Scott died about 2005 while living in the Tucson area.
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My vita for the crew are not nearly as extensive as those provided by others here and at the DZ.
But here is what I know:
1. Alice Hancock married a NWO pilot. They lived for many years in the Minneapolis, MN area. She was still there up until the time I spoke with her in 2014. She and her husband are now divorced. I don't know how long Alice worked for NWO. She hung up the phone on me when I called.
2. Flo married a cop named Wheeler and lives in South Carolina. The exact city is being withheld to protect her privacy. I don't know how long she continued to work for NWO. She refuses all communication with everyone I know who has attempted to contact her, including Jo Weber, Galen, and other writers.
3. Bill Rataczak, Scotty, and Andy Anderson all went on to become NWO 747 captains and have distinguished careers. Scotty died in the 1990s of cancer. Bill Rataczak has communicated with many journalists, but not with me since 2009. I understand from Ralph Himmelsbach, with whom he is good friends, that BR is in failing health. But he looked pretty good in the HC docu. Andy Anderson moved to Hawaii upon retirement, and all communications with him there have failed.
I understand that Captain Scott died about 2005 while living in the Tucson area.
Captain Scott died on March 14, 2001
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I can't find the video that I watched about five-eight years ago, either. What can I say?
OK lets bypass that.
Have you got a detailed timeline for Tina's life from the hijacking until she got out of the convent (1979?), if thats the correct date? For example I know she did new interview with the FBI in late 1971 (Dec 1/2) ... those crew interviews were in the Gray file release as I recall it ... which should be in the vault here?
The reason for mine above is I never have tried to build a timeline vita for Tina, and I now have new FBI docs which talk about Tina being willing (and wanting) to give a new in-depth interview in late 1971. That may be the last Mucklow interview Tina gave ?
And, for that matter do you have vitas for all the crew members?
Here's the timeline I have for Tina:
1. December 5 (?), 1971. Second interview with FBI agents in Philly. She specifically says that Cooper asked for 200,000 in "cash."
2. 1971- 1973, circa. Continues to fly for NWO and even rooms with Flo with regularly. Basically, she resumes her pre-hijacking life.
3. 1973-1974, circa. Meets her husband at NWO. Name withheld upon request.
4. 1974-1975, circa. Marries her husband and they move to the Bay Area. It is my understanding that she stopped working for NWO at this time, or worked only intermittently.
5. 1975-1976, circa. Marriage ends and Tina moves to San Diego with Jane and Lee Dormuth. In the 2005-2010 period Galen conducted an extensive interview with Tina's now ex-husband, who made it clear he does not want to talk with any media.
6. 1976-1978, circa. No information.
7. 1978-1979, circa. Tina hospitalized at the Lutheran Hospital and Home in Gresham, Oregon. The stay is lengthy, months, possibly a year. The facility is now known as the Good Samaritan Society.
8. Spring, 1979, Tina is taken by Lee and Jane to the Carmel of Maria monastery in Green Hills, Oregon, just outside of Eugene.
9. Tina stays at the monastery, actually a cloistered convent for women, until 1991, circa.
10. 1985, circa. Interview with Richard Tosaw in the convent.
11. 1990, circa, phone interview with Russ Calame.
12. 1991-1992, Tina rumored to stay in the Eugene, OR area and attends college.
13. Mid-1990s, begins working as an activity therapist in a psych facility, where she continued to work until 2011 by my knowledge. I do not know if she continues to work there.
14. 2014, circa, moves from her long-time home in Springfield, OR, where I spoke with her briefly in 2011, to a new residence in central Oregon.
15. 2012, Participated in an interview with Paul Neveel, a freelance journalist and professional photographer working for the Eugene Weekly. In the interview Tina refuted almost this entire timeline. In the interview she claims to have flown regularly for NWO throughout the 1970s until her retirement ten years after the hijacking, presumably 1981, and during that time she mostly flew NWO routes to the Orient. Then she went into the convent for personal reasons, leaving in the early 1990s.
Neveel told me that one of her stipulations to doing the interview was to not ask about DB Cooper at all. Also, no mention of her hospitalization was made at all by either party.
Interesting tidbit: When Tina lived in Springfield her home was near the Willamette River. Directly across the river - on a thoroughfare known as "River Road" just north of Tina - resided LD Cooper in the last years of his life. Hence, LD Cooper died just a few miles away from Tina.
Most of the timelines mentioned here I learned from Galen, and bits and pieces of it were corroborated by the folks in Tina's orbit that I spoke with, such as the Mother Superior at the convent - Sister Saint-Onge - cousin Arlene Mucklow in Philly, Jane and Lee Dormuth, the folks associated with the Lankenau School for Girls in Philly where Jane and Tina went to high school, Bill Rataczak, and the HR staff at the Good Samaritan Society.
The two dates I have for Tina's long FBI interviews are: Interview 11-30 Mucklow at Minneapolis, and 12/1-2 in PA:
There are docs in the new files making arrangements for both interviews, then confirming both interviews happened. During all of this time well into 1972 Tina and other crew members are being called and asked about particular hijacking points, and being shown photos of suspects. There are memos in these files saying things like: 'talked to stew, will be in MN on Sunday ___________ and will meet to look at photos, etc.' Or, 'forwarded photo to stew at ___________ and she says it's not him'. That goes on all through 1972. The crew members stayed active in the case for some years. That includes Anderson, by the way...
The same can be said about several of the passengers, especially Gregory. A number of the passengers were re-interviewed several times and remained available for a long time answering questions, rethinking previous questions, etc. People cooperated fully. Multiple FBI offices were involved in information sharing through all of this.
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American Psychological Association: APA Help Center Advisory
Re- Hostage and Kidnap Survivor Psychology: Post Event Synopsis.
Freedom almost always brings a sense of elation and relief. However, adjusting back to the real world after being held hostage can be just as difficult as abruptly leaving it. Upon release, many hostage survivors are faced with transitioning from conditions of isolation and helplessness to sensory overload and freedom. This transition often results in significant adjustment difficulties.
Hostage and kidnap survivors can experience stress reactions. Typical reactions occur in:
• Thinking: Intrusive thoughts, denial, impaired memory, decreased concentration, being overcautious and aware, confusion or fear of the event happening again.
• Emotions: Shock, numbness, anxiety, guilt, depression, anger and a sense of helplessness.
• Interactions: Withdrawal and avoidance of family, friends, activities and being on edge.
Such reactions to an extremely stressful event are understandable and normal. These are typical responses and generally decrease after a period of time. It is common for people's reactions to vary from one individual to another.
According to research, hostage survivors often develop an unconscious bond to their captors and experience grief if their captors are harmed. They may also feel guilty for developing a bond. This is typically referred to as the Stockholm syndrome. Hostage survivors may also have feelings of guilt for surviving while others did not. It is important for survivors to recognize that these are usual human reactions to being held captive.
When hostages are released, it is essential for them to:
• Receive medical attention.
• Be in a safe and secure environment.
• Connect with loved ones.
• Have an opportunity to talk or journal their experience if and when they choose.
• Receive resources and information about how to seek counseling, particularly if their distress from the incident is interfering with their daily lives.
• Protect their privacy (e.g. avoid media overexposure including watching and listening to news and participating in media interviews).
• Take time to adjust back into family and work.
Family and friends can support survivors by listening, being patient and focusing on their freedom instead of engaging in negative talk about the captors.
It is important to realize that families and friends of hostages are confronted with numerous issues in coping with fears and uncertainties as well and may also need support in dealing with their own emotional reactions.
Recovery and the future:
Released hostages need time to recover from the physical, mental and emotional difficulties they faced. However, it is important to keep in mind that human beings are highly resilient and can persevere in spite of tragedy. Research shows that positive growth and resilience can occur following trauma.
Hostage survivors may feel lost or have difficulty managing intense reactions and may need help adjusting to their old life following release. If there are chronic indications of stress, continued feelings of numbness, disturbed sleep, as well as other signs, the hostage survivor might want to consider seeking help from a licensed mental health professional, such as a psychologist, who can help develop an appropriate strategy for moving forward. To find a psychologist in your area, visit APA's Psychologist Locator.
*Thanks to psychologists Raymond Hanbury, PhD, ABPP, and David Romano, PhD, for their assistance with this article. July 2013
Resources
• Bonanno, G., Papa, A., & O'Neill, K. (2001) Loss and Human Resilience. Applied and Preventive Psychology, 10, 193-206.
• Speckhard, A., Tabrina, N., Krasnov, V., & Mufel, N. (2005) "Stockholm Effects and Psychological Responses to Captivity in Hostages Held by Suicidal Terrorists" in S. Wessely & V. Krasnov eds. Psychological Responses to the new Terrorism: A NATO Russia Dialogue, IOS Press. pg. 29.
• Wessely, S. (2005) Victimhood and Resilience. New England Journal of Medicine, 353, 548-550.
The full text of articles from APA Help Center may be reproduced and distributed for noncommercial purposes with credit given to the American Psychological Association. Any electronic reproductions must link to the original article on the APA Help Center. Any exceptions to this, including excerpting, paraphrasing or reproduction in a commercial work, must be presented in writing to the APA. Images from the APA Help Center may not be reproduced. http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/hostage-kidnap.aspx
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Psychological questions about the Cooper Hijacking:
1. What training had the crew on flight 305 had in the event of a hijacking, prior to 11-24-71? Had NWO provided any training?
2. Who of the crew had prior active military training?
3. Was any recovery and evaluation plan for the crew instituted following 11-24-71?
4. What does Cooper's M.O. *modus operandum on board flight 305 say about his psychology and background?
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Psychological questions about the Cooper Hijacking:
1. What training had the crew on flight 305 had in the event of a hijacking had, prior to 11-24-71? Had NWO provided any training?
2. Who of the crew had prior active military training?
3. Was any recovery and evaluation plan for the crew instituted following 11-24-71?
4. What does Cooper's M.O. *modus operandum on board flight 305 say about his psychology and background?
1. It is unlikely that the flight crew had any "training" other than being told to comply with the hijacker's demands and to keep him calm if at all possible. Until Cooper was airborne again with the parachutes, his fate and that of everyone else on board was connected until he released the passengers.
And remember that the FAA Chief Psychologist had informed the flight crew that Cooper would probably blow up the aircraft when he jumped. I'm sure that the flight crew appreciated the information.
2. Scott served as a pilot in the US Army Air Corps during World War Two.
Rataczak served in the USAF as a pilot prior to joining NWA as a pilot, and his father was reportedly a long time employee of NWA (mechanic?), this according to information related to a speech Rataczak made a few years ago at a NWA employee's function in Minneapolis.
Anderson was also probably a USAF trained pilot, but there is no written confirmation of this to my knowledge. It should be noted that while Anderson had three stripes, which means he was a rated co-pilot on some NWA aircraft (probably the 727), he was serving as the flight engineer on the hijacked aircraft.
Anderson probably obtained the flight engineer rating at his own expense after leaving the military (assuming he was ex-USAF), and through a commercial training program such as United Airlines used to operate in Denver. In the late 1960 time frame, it was common for pilots with a commercial pilot's license and instrument rating to attend these short courses to obtain the flight engineer rating and then join airlines as flight engineers before advancing into the co-pilot position. It was a standard way to get into commercial jet aviation.
3. The 727 cockpit crew already had an emergency means to evacuate the cockpit during the hijacking without going into the cabin. It consisted of a rope that was attached to the ceiling of the cockpit and would be thrown out one of the side windows. The cockpit crew members would slide down that rope. They discussed doing so during the time on the ground in Seattle, but didn't want to leave anyone behind in the cabin with Cooper. The right opportunity did not present itself for everyone to get away from Cooper, so the flight crew stayed put.
4. In my opinion, his M.O. means that he had general knowledge of the 727 aircraft and some closely held information on the fact that the aft stairs could be lowered in flight. Nevertheless, Cooper did not know how to lower the aft stairs, and had trouble doing so even after Tina gave him instructions on how to do it.
Overall, Cooper seemed to be impulsive and did not do serious or detailed planning for the hijacking. This suggests to me that Cooper may have decided to do the hijacking only a few days prior to doing so. This would also suggest that Cooper had information on the 727 available to him prior to deciding to do the hijacking. Whatever triggered his actions was probably related to work or a domestic situation.
The fact that Cooper routinely carried a pocket knife suggests that he was something of an "outdoorsman" (hiker, hunter, fisherman, etc.).
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I have long thought that one of the under-reported stories of this time is the experience and aftermath of all the flight attendants who were skyjacked. There must be thousands of them - 300 hundred hijackings in just the late 1960s and early 1970s.
Further, it seems that the FAs had the vast majority of contact with the hijackers. Only on rare occasions did cockpit crew enter the cabin to deal with a skyjacker, such as with Paul Cini in early November 1971.
I bet Alice Hancock would have a lot to say on the subject.
Ron and Pat Forman know a few NWO FAs from this period. I'll send this line of questioning on to them for comment.
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Howdy, everybody.
I've been looking at the Cooper case as something so flawed that must be taken back to formula, so to speak, so please excuse some of the basic questions I tend to post at times. One of the things that stands out is that none of the sources that I have found have actually detailed the FBI search of the plane. I have read many times that agents found the tie, magazines, drink glass, et cetera, and that they "searched the plane" for Cooper.
Has anybody here read a full description or checklist of places onboard the plane where they searched for people or explosives? For example: "We entered through the rear stairs, cleared the lavatories, then the cabin row-by-row, proceeded on to the cargo areas..." All I get is vague statements, like, "The FBI searched the plane and Cooper was gone." Geoffrey Gray's documents touch on it a little bit, mentioning compartments where he doubtfully could have hidden, but has anyone seen anything more complete?
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Howdy, everybody.
I've been looking at the Cooper case as something so flawed that must be taken back to formula, so to speak, so please excuse some of the basic questions I tend to post at times. One of the things that stands out is that none of the sources that I have found have actually detailed the FBI search of the plane. I have read many times that agents found the tie, magazines, drink glass, et cetera, and that they "searched the plane" for Cooper.
Has anybody here read a full description or checklist of places onboard the plane where they searched for people or explosives? For example: "We entered through the rear stairs, cleared the lavatories, then the cabin row-by-row, proceeded on to the cargo areas..." All I get is vague statements, like, "The FBI searched the plane and Cooper was gone." Geoffrey Gray's documents touch on it a little bit, mentioning compartments where he doubtfully could have hidden, but has anyone seen anything more complete?
Thats about it - you're right. Few detailed docs available on this or people would have said more. There were exchanges with Boeing and NWA about where to look - so panels in the back area were removed to see if Cooper was hiding in these recess areas or had been in that area. Results were negative. I believe the toilets were drained and contents examined also.
FBI docs released to date are general and dont contain much detail ... no Lab reports released just general summaries of Lab reports eg. 'finger prints of subject dont match those on file' issued in triplicate to every office involved.
below is an example of discussion about the paneled area search ... which was missed during the first entry and search at Reno.
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Howdy, everybody.
I've been looking at the Cooper case as something so flawed that must be taken back to formula, so to speak, so please excuse some of the basic questions I tend to post at times. One of the things that stands out is that none of the sources that I have found have actually detailed the FBI search of the plane. I have read many times that agents found the tie, magazines, drink glass, et cetera, and that they "searched the plane" for Cooper.
Has anybody here read a full description or checklist of places onboard the plane where they searched for people or explosives? For example: "We entered through the rear stairs, cleared the lavatories, then the cabin row-by-row, proceeded on to the cargo areas..." All I get is vague statements, like, "The FBI searched the plane and Cooper was gone." Geoffrey Gray's documents touch on it a little bit, mentioning compartments where he doubtfully could have hidden, but has anyone seen anything more complete?
I honestly think that just a law enforcement thing. I've read so many reports over the years that essentially just jump to the good stuff. My theory is the longer and the more detailed of a negative search; it just seems to bore everyone, including the writer. They just want the cliffnotes version. Did you find what you were looking for? If so, continue. If not...bleh. Is it the best way to record events? Probably not. But its probably a good guess of why you cant find that information.
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Results were negative. I believe the toilets were drained and contents examined also.
Yikes! How'd you like to get THAT assignment?!
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Howdy, everybody.
I've been looking at the Cooper case as something so flawed that must be taken back to formula, so to speak, so please excuse some of the basic questions I tend to post at times. One of the things that stands out is that none of the sources that I have found have actually detailed the FBI search of the plane. I have read many times that agents found the tie, magazines, drink glass, et cetera, and that they "searched the plane" for Cooper.
Has anybody here read a full description or checklist of places onboard the plane where they searched for people or explosives? For example: "We entered through the rear stairs, cleared the lavatories, then the cabin row-by-row, proceeded on to the cargo areas..." All I get is vague statements, like, "The FBI searched the plane and Cooper was gone." Geoffrey Gray's documents touch on it a little bit, mentioning compartments where he doubtfully could have hidden, but has anyone seen anything more complete?
Thats about it - you're right. Few detailed docs available on this or people would have said more. There were exchanges with Boeing and NWA about where to look - so panels in the back area were removed to see if Cooper was hiding in these recess areas or had been in that area. Results were negative. I believe the toilets were drained and contents examined also.
FBI docs released to date are general and dont contain much detail ... no Lab reports released just general summaries of Lab reports eg. 'finger prints of subject dont match those on file' issued in triplicate to every office involved.
below is an example of discussion about the paneled area search ... which was missed during the first entry and search at Reno.
Thanks for the attachment. I think this is different communication for the same search of those panels I read about. I'm interested in the cargo area. Depressurization would have made access possible to a lot of places, but it looks like I'd have to talk to the agents who were in Reno for any information on what was searched and when. I haven't found any Agent names yet. Suppose I'll keep looking, but any shortcuts are appreciated.
Another thing - Anybody know where the Reno airport was "covered" by the FBI? This I am literally finding nothing on. I did see someone put up some helpful airport info a while back.
P.S. - The blueprints of a 727 are amazingly clear once you stare at them long enough, like one of those dot paintings at the mall.
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Howdy, everybody.
I've been looking at the Cooper case as something so flawed that must be taken back to formula, so to speak, so please excuse some of the basic questions I tend to post at times. One of the things that stands out is that none of the sources that I have found have actually detailed the FBI search of the plane. I have read many times that agents found the tie, magazines, drink glass, et cetera, and that they "searched the plane" for Cooper.
Has anybody here read a full description or checklist of places onboard the plane where they searched for people or explosives? For example: "We entered through the rear stairs, cleared the lavatories, then the cabin row-by-row, proceeded on to the cargo areas..." All I get is vague statements, like, "The FBI searched the plane and Cooper was gone." Geoffrey Gray's documents touch on it a little bit, mentioning compartments where he doubtfully could have hidden, but has anyone seen anything more complete?
Thats about it - you're right. Few detailed docs available on this or people would have said more. There were exchanges with Boeing and NWA about where to look - so panels in the back area were removed to see if Cooper was hiding in these recess areas or had been in that area. Results were negative. I believe the toilets were drained and contents examined also.
FBI docs released to date are general and dont contain much detail ... no Lab reports released just general summaries of Lab reports eg. 'finger prints of subject dont match those on file' issued in triplicate to every office involved.
below is an example of discussion about the paneled area search ... which was missed during the first entry and search at Reno.
Thanks for the attachment. I think this is different communication for the same search of those panels I read about. I'm interested in the cargo area. Depressurization would have made access possible to a lot of places, but it looks like I'd have to talk to the agents who were in Reno for any information on what was searched and when. I haven't found any Agent names yet. Suppose I'll keep looking, but any shortcuts are appreciated.
Another thing - Anybody know where the Reno airport was "covered" by the FBI? This I am literally finding nothing on. I did see someone put up some helpful airport info a while back.
P.S. - The blueprints of a 727 are amazingly clear once you stare at them long enough, like one of those dot paintings at the mall.
I doubt if the cargo area, which is located under the cabin floor, was accessible from inside the cabin. And no cargo, or baggage in the cargo compartment, was removed from the aircraft during the time it was on the ground in Seattle.
It is a safe bet that the FBI had a "presence" at the Reno airport and at Seattle as well. It is also a safe bet that snipers were on the scene at both locations although that is not mentioned anywhere to the best of my knowledge.
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...I haven't found any Agent names yet. Suppose I'll keep looking, but any shortcuts are appreciated...
My book covers that question. Calame and Rhodes also detail a number of the agents in Reno, particular those who went aboard the plane. The 302s from GG, which are here in the vault I believe, also give great detail on this subject. If you need any help, call me. I'll go out in the shed and dig into my files, but it is cold and snowing this weekend, so - ug.
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Has anybody come across any fingerprint information in their searches of the 302's, document dumps or anything else? Fingerprint info can appear a bit strange, like gibberish, with character pairs like CO, CI, PO, PM, etc. Sometimes it gets scrawled in the margins. I haven't seen anything yet.
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Has anybody come across any fingerprint information in their searches of the 302's, document dumps or anything else? Fingerprint info can appear a bit strange, like gibberish, with character pairs like CO, CI, PO, PM, etc. Sometimes it gets scrawled in the margins. I haven't seen anything yet.
I believe there is a discussion of the fingerprint test results in the GG version of the FBI files. But I don't believe it discusses the "character pairs" type of information that you mention.
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Unsurelock,
As you pointed out there are numerous references to fingerprints in the FBI docs. Many are not related to the aircraft, but letters sent to various newspapers (another topic altogether!). Other docs refer to the prints as eliminating current suspects.
One doc states the ashtray produced no latent prints of value. Another dated May 1977 states there were 8 latent fingerprints connected with the case. (See below. Highlights my own). But no where can I find specifically where the prints were lifted.
I look forward to other document releases for more information.
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Unsurelock,
As you pointed out there are numerous references to fingerprints in the FBI docs. Many are not related to the aircraft, but letters sent to various newspapers (another topic altogether!). Other docs refer to the prints as eliminating current suspects.
One doc states the ashtray produced no latent prints of value. Another dated May 1977 states there were 8 latent fingerprints connected with the case. (See below. Highlights my own). But no where can I find specifically where the prints were lifted.
I look forward to other document releases for more information.
Exactly right. Finger prints were in play including prints and a palm print collected in Reno. Reading through these docs it appears to me there was a core set of prints obtained in Reno the Lab felt safe in using for comparison purposes.
Make your pictures of docs a bit larger so more readable? Thanks! I try to use 614 pixels width for each page to sneak under the 200k posting limit ... seems to work for me so far. If that posting limit could be raised it sure would help! ?? ;)
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Unsurelock,
As you pointed out there are numerous references to fingerprints in the FBI docs. Many are not related to the aircraft, but letters sent to various newspapers (another topic altogether!). Other docs refer to the prints as eliminating current suspects.
One doc states the ashtray produced no latent prints of value. Another dated May 1977 states there were 8 latent fingerprints connected with the case. (See below. Highlights my own). But no where can I find specifically where the prints were lifted.
I look forward to other document releases for more information.
Thanks for the reply, David. The print info I'm talking about sometimes gets scrawled on an arrest record. The lab is able to break down the prints into a description, much like listing which copy of a y-chromosome you have and so forth in genetics. So a fingerprint can have its data translated and communicated, and sometimes does on documents like these, without the recognizable images of a fingertip.
I suppose I'm hoping for too much that the FBI would release an actual description of the partial prints taken.
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Unsurelock,
As you pointed out there are numerous references to fingerprints in the FBI docs. Many are not related to the aircraft, but letters sent to various newspapers (another topic altogether!). Other docs refer to the prints as eliminating current suspects.
One doc states the ashtray produced no latent prints of value. Another dated May 1977 states there were 8 latent fingerprints connected with the case. (See below. Highlights my own). But no where can I find specifically where the prints were lifted.
I look forward to other document releases for more information.
Thanks for the reply, David. The print info I'm talking about sometimes gets scrawled on an arrest record. The lab is able to break down the prints into a description, much like listing which copy of a y-chromosome you have and so forth in genetics. So a fingerprint can have its data translated and communicated, and sometimes does on documents like these, without the recognizable images of a fingertip.
I suppose I'm hoping for too much that the FBI would release an actual description of the partial prints taken.
... and you have access to all of the data bases you would need worldwide even if you had the prints? ;)
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RE: Harold Anderson
Been researching the engineer and his experience during the hijacking. If I'm correct, one or more of the members here interviewed him. All I can find are some references to posting the info years ago and adding some detail to the flight transcripts.
I think I"m just missing them. Still new to the forum world. Any help directing me to the info would be appreciated.
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RE: Harold Anderson
Been researching the engineer and his experience during the hijacking. If I'm correct, one or more of the members here interviewed him. All I can find are some references to posting the info years ago and adding some detail to the flight transcripts.
I think I"m just missing them. Still new to the forum world. Any help directing me to the info would be appreciated.
Check the Form 302 FBI crew interviews that were conducted at Reno shortly after the airliner landed there.
Let me also point out that Anderson was also an NWA co-pilot, probably on the 727, although he was acting as the flight engineer on this flight.
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RE: Harold Anderson
Been researching the engineer and his experience during the hijacking. If I'm correct, one or more of the members here interviewed him. All I can find are some references to posting the info years ago and adding some detail to the flight transcripts.
I think I"m just missing them. Still new to the forum world. Any help directing me to the info would be appreciated.
well, this is a Pandora's box. Yes. Well maybe! There were three interviews supposedly done with Andy - I forget the year. They were done by me and another person through a third intermediary who supposedly had Anderson's email address and had interviewed Andy before. Since Andy rarely gives interviews I thought this was an opportunity so we took it. In retrospect maybe it was all too easy! We prepared questions, they were fed to Andy, several days passed, and the answers came back. The whole point of these questions was to try and get clarification from Andy about the flight path, the certainty about the flight path at the time, any validation of the flight path Andy was aware of, and the exact time and place of Cooper's jump. All conveyed to Andy through the intermediary (which I thought strange at the time). The intermediary was insistent Andy would not participate in any other way ...
( I will skip all of the answers 'Andy' supposedly gave)
Andy's supposed answers were fed to three people who evaluated them. More questions were prepared and fed to the intermediary to give to Andy. Answers came back from Andy again. The intermediary then suddenly informed us that Andy was tired and would prefer to terminate the interview. That ended the interview. ...
About a year later the Intermediary was caught red handed in a conspiracy to 'fuck up' and publicly humiliate another well known individual who the Intermediary had been having a feud with. It became obvious the Intermediary did not mind involving us in his half-baked conspiracy! Substantial damage was done to a number of innocent people involved in the Intermediary's circle of associates. That included people here at this forum! The Intermediary was banned from this forum - forever! The credibility of the Intermediary was now severely compromised. The Intermediary never has acknowledged his errors or apologised. The intermediary deals with Bruce Smith on a regular basis.
So, we now have reason to suspect that all of the supposed interviews with Andy were 'all made up' - an invention all perpetrated by the Intermediary, in order to embarrass and screw up other Cooper researchers. For this reason nothing the Intermediary says or does is taken as credible to this day, and it has spilled over and affected several other people in the socalled Cooper vortex. The intermediary obviously did not mind sacrificing our friendships and support in order to try achieve some half-backed retaliation he wanted against another Cooper personality, RobertMBlevins! We simply were not going to participate in this fantasy or get involved in someone's feud planning to strike back at Mr. Blevins. The supposed interviews with Andy were all thrown into the ash can as a result. We suspect these socalled interviews were all an invention, likewise. It's sad. All in a day's work in the DB Cooper vortex where people sometimes cannot be trusted.
On the backside of this we know the same Intermediary has provided some highly credible fully authenticated information about other matters in the past. Its almost irreconcilable.
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So, who is the Intermediary? He deals with Bruce Smith on a regular basis, you say? Hmmm. Tell me more, as I am unaware of this whole episode that you are describing and I am Bruce Smith!
As for interviewing Andy Anderson, I tried. I had addresses for him in Minnesota and then Hawaii. Nothing panned out. I mailed a copy of my book to the last address I had for Andy, but heard nothing back. Eventually the last email address I had for him bounced back.
Currently, I sense he is deceased. No confirmation on that at all. Just my gut.
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So, who is the Intermediary? He deals with Bruce Smith on a regular basis, you say? Hmmm. Tell me more, as I am unaware of this whole episode that you are describing and I am Bruce Smith!
As for interviewing Andy Anderson, I tried. I had addresses for him in Minnesota and then Hawaii. Nothing panned out. I mailed a copy of my book to the last address I had for Andy, but heard nothing back. Eventually the last email address I had for him bounced back.
Currently, I sense he is deceased. No confirmation on that at all. Just my gut.
no further comment on this -
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... and you have access to all of the data bases you would need worldwide even if you had the prints? ;)
What I have access to is not your concern, . Conducting yourself as an adult should instead be your concern. That includes not passive-aggressively masking an attack on my intelligence with a winky sign.
Admin removed members name...
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... and you have access to all of the data bases you would need worldwide even if you had the prints? ;)
What I have access to is not your concern, . Conducting yourself as an adult should instead be your concern. That includes not passive-aggressively masking an attack on my intelligence with a winky sign.
Unsurelock,
Let me assure you that Georger has not made an attack on your intelligence.
You seem to be overly and unnecessarily sensitive about something. Just rest assured that everyone on Shutter's site is very polite, or else you will be hearing from Shutter himself.
If you really want to see how a bunch of hard nosed s.o.b.'s operate, just take a look at the Cooper sites (now locked) on DropZone.
So lighten up a bit please.
admin. removed members name.
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... and you have access to all of the data bases you would need worldwide even if you had the prints? ;)
What I have access to is not your concern, . Conducting yourself as an adult should instead be your concern. That includes not passive-aggressively masking an attack on my intelligence with a winky sign.
Remove my name from your post or Shutter will ... or I will!
What gives here?
The question was straightforward and mundane. You seem to have an agenda? Are you trying to teach me some kind of lesson about your intelligence ? Or my use of a winky sign? :nono: Why!?
You have a database to run someone's prints? You have Cooper's prints? You are speaking riddles. Tell us what you can do and have to do it with! You're the one making assertions about running prints from the plane. My question is simple! HOW! WITH WHAT!? AMERICAN WANTS TO KNOW! Sheesh.
admin removed members name
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... and you have access to all of the data bases you would need worldwide even if you had the prints? ;)
What I have access to is not your concern, . Conducting yourself as an adult should instead be your concern. That includes not passive-aggressively masking an attack on my intelligence with a winky sign.
Unsurelock,
Let me assure you that Georger has not made an attack on your intelligence.
You seem to be overly and unnecessarily sensitive about something. Just rest assured that everyone on Shutter's site is very polite, or else you will be hearing from Shutter himself.
If you really want to see how a bunch of hard nosed s.o.b.'s operate, just take a look at the Cooper sites (now locked) on DropZone.
So lighten up a bit please.
Here we go again!
I sense we have a trouble maker here.
Why? I have no idea.
He seems to have targeted me and this forum for his special treatment?
This is all we need!
admin removed members name
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Ok people...I would hate to have to lock another thread up...can we please learn to discuss DB Cooper, and a lot less about the person discussing DB Cooper?
Lets focus on the case..I know people get under each others skin, but lets get through the problem before it gets any further.
The two members involved, would you please contact me through a PM to help sort the issue out. I've heard from one side at this point, and will wait till the other side contacts me. lets try to resolve the problem as gentleman, sound good?
Shutter
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Bruce Smith said:
So, who is the Intermediary? He deals with Bruce Smith on a regular basis, you say? Hmmm. Tell me more, as I am unaware of this whole episode that you are describing and I am Bruce Smith!
Hey Smith, if you can't figure out who the Intermediary is, then you are out there...somewhere. Even I can figure out who he was....put on your thinking cap Smith.. grab a clue, big guy.
Meyer
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Ok people...I would hate to have to lock another thread up...can we please learn to discuss DB Cooper, and a lot less about the person discussing DB Cooper?
Lets focus on the case..I know people get under each others skin, but lets get through the problem before it gets any further.
The two members involved, would you please contact me through a PM to help sort the issue out. I've heard from one side at this point, and will wait till the other side contacts me. lets try to resolve the problem as gentleman, sound good?
Shutter
Look. This is crazy. I really dont enjoy this at all. I guess I will not use icons of any kind from ere on out on the chance they might offend somebody. This is the end of Thanksgiving. I have a very heavy schedule this week and need to start prep for that tonight - so I dont have time for this bullshit!
I am going to take a vacation, Good luck to your forum! :) :D ;D >:( :( :o 8) ::) :-[ :-X :-\ :-* >:D O0 :)) C:-) :offtopicman: :chr2: :nono: :conspiracy:
This is all I can say. This is all this matter is worth! I really was blindsided by this today - last thing I expected. Congrats to the attacker. He wins!
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Of course it's crazy. it also ties up the forum that I have to deal with...nobody has taken any sides, and nobody needs to stop using "smileys"
when I get a complaint, I have to follow up on it. especially when it comes from one of the two members with this issue. I can't tap out and forget about it...
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Of course it's crazy. it also ties up the forum that I have to deal with...nobody has taken any sides, and nobody needs to stop using "smileys"
when I get a complaint, I have to follow up on it. especially when it comes from one of the two members with this issue. I can't tap out and forget about it...
One of the greatest person I have ever had the privilege of calling my friend said to me something I will never forget. It was on a fishing trip and he was giving me a bad time. I had only met him a day earlier so I said to him “ it sure didn’t take you long to start ribbing me and giving me a bad time”. He said to me “ if you don’t feel comfortable giving your buddy a bad time ...... then you haven’t become good friends yet “. Humor is part of what makes life fun ! I try to never miss an opportunity to give my friends static should they make a foolish move ! It’s all in good fun and I expect the same in return. Lighten up and keep the silly smileys coming. JMHO
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In the future everyone needs to address a poster by there username. some people don't like to use there real names. it doesn't matter if it was mentioned elsewhere. this isn't a court of law where names are required.
I consider everyone on this forum an asset to the community. personalities will clash, always have and always will. If I was to look at this from it's totality point, the use of someone's name far over rules the use of a smiley.
unsurelock, I don't have any issues with you what so ever. I hope you will continue to contribute to this forum. we are all here looking for answers. hopefully, we can set this aside and take up where we left off.
remember, I can be reached on this forum through the PM system, or through email if you have anything you feel like discussing with me. my door is open to everyone....
Shutter
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Things that interested me in the files were two people came to almost the same conclusions of the jump point. these were independent of each other...then the issue of not being able to search some area's properly due to heavy brush "thickets" holding them back. then the amount of people surrounding the plotting of the path.
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One entry in the documents have me puzzled....if the Flight data recorder would be able to tell the difference between the oscillation, and the pressure bump, why did they state the entire route had to be searched? they believe he might of been on the stairs for some time prior to jumping....
now that I think about it. the information wasn't on the FDR, correct?
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One entry in the documents have me puzzled....if the Flight data recorder would be able to tell the difference between the oscillation, and the pressure bump, why did they state the entire route had to be searched? they believe he might of been on the stairs for some time prior to jumping....
now that I think about it. the information wasn't on the FDR, correct?
The wind chill factor at the end of those stairs would be about 35 degrees below zero. Cooper was lightly dressed and would have been freezing his butt off after about the first minute.
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One entry in the documents have me puzzled....if the Flight data recorder would be able to tell the difference between the oscillation, and the pressure bump, why did they state the entire route had to be searched? they believe he might of been on the stairs for some time prior to jumping....
now that I think about it. the information wasn't on the FDR, correct?
I think that snippet was from one of the test pilots they talked to, who probably was just giving a wild conjecture.
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Temps for December 6, 1971 Actual:43° | 32° which are pretty close to Turkey day...nothing about what it was like on the stairs (temp wise)..they would of blocked most of the wind, but how cold would it really be on the stairs..
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One entry in the documents have me puzzled....if the Flight data recorder would be able to tell the difference between the oscillation, and the pressure bump, why did they state the entire route had to be searched? they believe he might of been on the stairs for some time prior to jumping....
now that I think about it. the information wasn't on the FDR, correct?
I think that snippet was from one of the test pilots they talked to, who probably was just giving a wild conjecture.
the snippet was taken from a page dated 11/24 11/25 analysis of the flight path...this is prior to the testing...
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Temps for December 6, 1971 Actual:43° | 32° which are pretty close to Turkey day...nothing about what it was like on the stairs (temp wise)..they would of blocked most of the wind, but how cold would it really be on the stairs..
I have put those calculations for the actual hijacking online here several times.
But just going from memory, the flight crew reported the ambient temperature at 10,000 feet ASL at -7 degrees C. That is +20 degrees F and does not include the wind factor. The end of the stairs is not going to block all of that 225 MPH wind by any means.
The cold is going to be a major factor for Cooper regardless of how you look at.
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Shutter: You're right, my bad. There's no indication who suggested Cooper could have sat on the stairs.
Confer pages 277 and 278 where Boeing test pilots give their opinions, including their belief that the crew would probably not feel the actual jump, only the oscillations.
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Shutter: You're right, my bad. There's no indication who suggested Cooper could have sat on the stairs.
Confer pages 277 and 278 where Boeing test pilots give their opinions, including their belief that the crew would probably not feel the actual jump, only the oscillations.
I believe the test pilots also stated that the airliner crew would only feel the oscillations if one of them was hand flying the aircraft (autopilot off).
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Temps for December 6, 1971 Actual:43° | 32° which are pretty close to Turkey day...nothing about what it was like on the stairs (temp wise)..they would of blocked most of the wind, but how cold would it really be on the stairs..
Robb Heady jumped from 12,000 feet at a speed of at least 300 mph. He said the temperature and wind were not a factor on the stairs. Other skydivers here and at the DZ have stated that there is little wind on the stairs due to the perturbations of wind blowing around them. Think of it as the Initial Cooper Vortex.
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R 99 wrote: "The end of the stairs is not going to block all of that 225 MPH wind by any means."
Probably true, but not a certainty. I was astounded to watch a female skydiver's long blonde hair hang downward on a "raft jump" Turns out that it is not uncommon. Look at this raft jump photo, notice the woman's pigtails hanging down. You'd be surprised how much relative wind blockage occurs behind objects. I sure was.
377
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This pix reminds me, 377, that you have YET to post confirming photographs of those ladies from New Zealand you said jumped au natural.
That raft looked incredibly stable for descending at what, 110 mph? Does everyone in the raft have to climb in while on the plane - and then they all get pushed out the door? How does that happen?
BTW: I notice that there are no 68-year old men in this photo. Just sayin'....
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Shutter: You're right, my bad. There's no indication who suggested Cooper could have sat on the stairs.
Confer pages 277 and 278 where Boeing test pilots give their opinions, including their belief that the crew would probably not feel the actual jump, only the oscillations.
I believe the test pilots also stated that the airliner crew would only feel the oscillations if one of them was hand flying the aircraft (autopilot off).
Makes it more complicated since they have stated in the past that the auto-pilot was used for most of the flight...
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Shutter: You're right, my bad. There's no indication who suggested Cooper could have sat on the stairs.
Confer pages 277 and 278 where Boeing test pilots give their opinions, including their belief that the crew would probably not feel the actual jump, only the oscillations.
I believe the test pilots also stated that the airliner crew would only feel the oscillations if one of them was hand flying the aircraft (autopilot off).
Makes it more complicated since they have stated in the past that the auto-pilot was used for most of the flight...
True. The test pilots were saying that the oscillations were quite small and smooth and probably not noticeable unless one of the pilots was hand flying the aircraft and could notice the small control wheel movements caused by the change in the center of gravity.
The test pilots apparently didn't even mention hearing or feeling the stairs slamming shut when they dropped some weights from them. This was apparently done as part of the Air American deal.
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R 99 wrote: "The end of the stairs is not going to block all of that 225 MPH wind by any means."
Probably true, but not a certainty. I was astounded to watch a female skydiver's long blonde hair hang downward on a "raft jump" Turns out that it is not uncommon. Look at this raft jump photo, notice the woman's pigtails hanging down. You'd be surprised how much relative wind blockage occurs behind objects. I sure was.
377
Who is the fellow in the lower right hand side of the picture? ;D
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Who is the fellow in the lower right hand side of the picture? ;D
Indeed!
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The test pilots apparently didn't even mention hearing or feeling the stairs slamming shut when they dropped some weights from them. This was apparently done as part of the Air American deal.
I'm not so sure they did..I'm sure they all felt the pressure change, and obviously the gauges showed this, but who is the one saying the door slams shut? at 150 knots it doesn't close all the way. the plane wasn't going much faster to cause it to do much more at 170 knots..
even in the testing by Boeing they state the stairs were removed....
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Shutter: You're right, my bad. There's no indication who suggested Cooper could have sat on the stairs.
Confer pages 277 and 278 where Boeing test pilots give their opinions, including their belief that the crew would probably not feel the actual jump, only the oscillations.
I believe the test pilots also stated that the airliner crew would only feel the oscillations if one of them was hand flying the aircraft (autopilot off).
Makes it more complicated since they have stated in the past that the auto-pilot was used for most of the flight...
True. The test pilots were saying that the oscillations were quite small and smooth and probably not noticeable unless one of the pilots was hand flying the aircraft and could notice the small control wheel movements caused by the change in the center of gravity.
The test pilots apparently didn't even mention hearing or feeling the stairs slamming shut when they dropped some weights from them. This was apparently done as part of the Air American deal.
I caught that too. Seems like the description is almost an attempt to minimise or trivialise the affects? I find that curious. But, what then follows is this rather long detailed hypothesis about Cooper possibly sitting on the stairs and traveling along without jumping (sightseeing clear into Oregon and Nevada ... with his ass on the stairs and 'no oscillations? )? The hypothesis is almost given equal status to the empiracle fact of oscillations (and no bump)! Something doesn't quite add up, or does it?
Maybe they are trying to tell people: dont make your minds up yet! ?
To balance this consider the testimony and actions of Rataczack, Soderlind following events in real time back in Minneapolis making notes, testimony of the TAG team members who conducted the test, and all the other documents/witnesses which very clearly note the oscillations and a "bump" as decisive evidence "we think he he may have just left us" and "we think he jumped clear back in Washington" etc. ...... (Scott's words).
Otherwise, the new long, carefully connected and edited pdf, is wonderful! I wish I had had this before going through the thousands of smaller docs trying to index and classify each one - aaaaaaaaaaaaargh! I wish we had had this doc back in 2008! I wonder what the date of this document is? There is no cover page or date that I could find. What was its purpose - to train and educate new case agents about the Cooper case?
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This pix reminds me, 377, that you have YET to post confirming photographs of those ladies from New Zealand you said jumped au natural.
That raft looked incredibly stable for descending at what, 110 mph? Does everyone in the raft have to climb in while on the plane - and then they all get pushed out the door? How does that happen?
BTW: I notice that there are no 68-year old men in this photo. Just sayin'....
The naked female formation team was from the Netherlands not New Zealand. I didn't take pictures.
Aerodynamicists would take interest in what I observed. Female body parts have resonant oscillation frequencies. Flutter is the aero engineering term that comes to mind. Silicone implants complicate the motion. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5v0baz
Rafts are loaded onto the jumpship only partially inflated. It takes some experience to get it right. As the plane ascends the raft swells. The raft occupants exit in the raft which is launched with the other jumpers hanging on to the ides to stabilize it.
377
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This pix reminds me, 377, that you have YET to post confirming photographs of those ladies from New Zealand you said jumped au natural.
That raft looked incredibly stable for descending at what, 110 mph? Does everyone in the raft have to climb in while on the plane - and then they all get pushed out the door? How does that happen?
BTW: I notice that there are no 68-year old men in this photo. Just sayin'....
The naked female formation team was from the Netherlands not New Zealand. I didn't take pictures.
Aerodynamicists would take interest in what I observed. Female body parts have resonant oscillation frequencies. Flutter is the aero engineering term that comes to mind. Silicone implants complicate the motion. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5v0baz
Rafts are loaded onto the jumpship only partially inflated. It takes some experience to get it right. As the plane ascends the raft swells. The raft occupants exit in the raft which is launched with the other jumpers hanging on to the ides to stabilize it.
377
:offtopicman:
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Besides Georger's admonitions to stay on topic, I hope we don't get busted for creating a toxic environment with our dalliance into the Flying Dutchwomen's formations. I trust all genders feel safe here discussing DB Cooper.
Our All-Boys Club milieu is strange, considering that over half of all True Crime books are read by women.
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This pix reminds me, 377, that you have YET to post confirming photographs of those ladies from New Zealand you said jumped au natural.
That raft looked incredibly stable for descending at what, 110 mph? Does everyone in the raft have to climb in while on the plane - and then they all get pushed out the door? How does that happen?
BTW: I notice that there are no 68-year old men in this photo. Just sayin'....
The naked female formation team was from the Netherlands not New Zealand. I didn't take pictures.
Aerodynamicists would take interest in what I observed. Female body parts have resonant oscillation frequencies. Flutter is the aero engineering term that comes to mind. Silicone implants complicate the motion. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5v0baz
Rafts are loaded onto the jumpship only partially inflated. It takes some experience to get it right. As the plane ascends the raft swells. The raft occupants exit in the raft which is launched with the other jumpers hanging on to the ides to stabilize it.
377
But what happens to the raft when everyone deployes their parachutes? Does it just float off and land whereever? Or does someone like stick I knife in it and deflate it and hold on to it? I have so many questions about this.
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The raft floats off and lands wherever. It depressurizes as the altitude gets lower. Nobody gets hurt.
Skydivers, smoke jumpers and paratroopers are all taught to carry flotation gear if a water landing is even a remote possibility. I have carried flotation gear when jumping near water hazards. LPUs were the common solution. LPU 9, which i used, was a small military CO2 inflatable air bladder that cost about $20 for a pair in the early 70s. My instructor suggested always carrying a few condoms in an easily reached jumpsuit pocket. No Georger, not for that, but for use as inflatable flotation devices. If Cooper had really planned things out he would have jumped with some kind of flotation gear. I doubt if I could unwrap and inflate condoms in a night landing in the Columbia, but I sure could pull an inflation tab on an LPU. Still, it would be a struggle to get away from your gear in the dark and swim to safety. The river might win.
377
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Interesting part in the new files of a skydiving school in California. a man matching Cooper's description came in asking all sorts of questions about jumping, including jets..it starts on page 100 of the 317 files....the man from the school came forward after hearing about the hijacking...also discussed drag with full flaps gear down needed to exit the plane..he also asked where the jump centers were in Washington
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The raft floats off and lands wherever. It depressurizes as the altitude gets lower. Nobody gets hurt.
Skydivers, smoke jumpers and paratroopers are all taught to carry flotation gear if a water landing is even a remote possibility. I have carried flotation gear when jumping near water hazards. LPUs were the common solution. LPU 9, which i used, was a small military CO2 inflatable air bladder that cost about $20 for a pair in the early 70s. My instructor suggested always carrying a few condoms in an easily reached jumpsuit pocket. No Georger, not for that, but for use as inflatable flotation devices. If Cooper had really planned things out he would have jumped with some kind of flotation gear. I doubt if I could unwrap and inflate condoms in a night landing in the Columbia, but I sure could pull an inflation tab on an LPU. Still, it would be a struggle to get away from your gear in the dark and swim to safety. The river might win.
377
That is actually pretty damn interesting. Thanks for the insight!
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Interesting part in the new files of a skydiving school in California. a man matching Cooper's description came in asking all sorts of questions about jumping, including jets..it starts on page 100 of the 317 files....the man from the school came forward after hearing about the hijacking...also discussed drag with full flaps gear down needed to exit the plane..he also asked where the jump centers were in Washington
... that is interesting.
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Also, another entry talking about employee's..checking flight crews, and people with grievances, layoff etc.
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Also, another entry talking about employee's..checking flight crews, and people with grievances, layoff etc.
Its hard to tell what is projection from all the media coverage to what's real and independent.
I have gone through thousands of these tips/suspect files. The only thing missing is: "Cooper was my neighbor who is a polar bear"! ............ and I am not kidding. One of every permutation possible is in these tip or suspect files. Fair warning! ;) I think some people were responding to media coverage they had read or heard ... and agents were willing to following up any possible detail that might be a match.
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Also, another entry talking about employee's..checking flight crews, and people with grievances, layoff etc.
Ive tried to follow some of these suspects to their final conclusion - NOT HIM. In most cases suspects fail on description details or finger prints. All serious suspects were run through that gauntlet. It didnt matter how well a suspect seemed a good match at first - prints and physical evidence, availability/alibi, and other hard data finally decides each and every suspect. A much smaller group is held as Undecided - Further Investigation. But in all cases it comes down to prints and other hard evidence that either matches or doesn't. The manpower devoted to this involving countless offices and agents etc. was mind boggling!
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Interesting part in the new files of a skydiving school in California. a man matching Cooper's description came in asking all sorts of questions about jumping, including jets..it starts on page 100 of the 317 files....the man from the school came forward after hearing about the hijacking...also discussed drag with full flaps gear down needed to exit the plane..he also asked where the jump centers were in Washington
Matches perfectly with the Gunther account.
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The raft floats off and lands wherever. It depressurizes as the altitude gets lower. Nobody gets hurt.
Skydivers, smoke jumpers and paratroopers are all taught to carry flotation gear if a water landing is even a remote possibility. I have carried flotation gear when jumping near water hazards. LPUs were the common solution. LPU 9, which i used, was a small military CO2 inflatable air bladder that cost about $20 for a pair in the early 70s. My instructor suggested always carrying a few condoms in an easily reached jumpsuit pocket. No Georger, not for that, but for use as inflatable flotation devices. If Cooper had really planned things out he would have jumped with some kind of flotation gear. I doubt if I could unwrap and inflate condoms in a night landing in the Columbia, but I sure could pull an inflation tab on an LPU. Still, it would be a struggle to get away from your gear in the dark and swim to safety. The river might win.
377
So when you go in to buy the condoms, and they ask what size you want, what are you going to say? Any self-respecting man will only order the large, of course. Ha!......and they make bigger, better flotation devices to boot -- after they've been up and coming, of course. I can't believe i'm actually saying all this stuff with a straight face.....
Meyer
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Has anyone ever heard of the Martin 2-0-2 aircraft? this was a military cargo plane that ended up being converted to a passenger plane..it has rear stairs similar to the 727...I'm trying to see if the stairs can be lowered from the cockpit as a hunch...perhaps we are thinking too far ahead?
The design of the aircraft also had some quirks. You see, most aircraft around this time (including our friend Convair’s CV-270 and Douglas’s DC-6) were starting to become pressurized to give passengers more comfort and to allow a higher cruising altitude. The 2-0-2… didn’t... for some reason. Moreover, the aircraft lacked batteries. This meant to operate the electric airstairs in the back after a flight, you would need to keep at least one engine running -- because everyone knows nothing can go wrong when you have a bunch of civilians on a tarmac with running engines.
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AFAIK the Martin 202 was never a military cargo plane. I think you may be confusing it with the C-131 which was essentially a Convair 340 which was used widely by the USAF. Three surplus C-131s operated by CONQUEST AIR of FL flew relief cargo to Puerto Rico after the recent hurricane. They could go non stop from FL with about 7500 lbs of payload and land at a smaller airport that the jets couldn't use due to insufficient runway length. They were ferried from an AZ boneyard a year or two ago and refurbed for commercial use by Carlos Gomez, a propliner expert. At least one was relicensed as a Convair 340 which was the variant used by the USAF. C-131s were pressurized. The USAF T29 was a nav trainer variant but the airframe was the same as a C-131.
The USCG used a couple of Martins as VIP planes but I think that was the only military use.
BTW a Martin 404 was used as a jumpship at the World Free Fall Convention about 20 years ago. Jumpers used the ventral stairway exit.
377
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AFAIK the Martin 202 was never a military cargo plane. I think you may be confusing it with the C-131 which was essentially a Convair 340 which was used widely by the USAF. Three surplus C-131s operated by CONQUEST AIR of FL flew relief cargo to Puerto Rico after the recent hurricane. They could go non stop from FL with about 7500 lbs of payload and land at a smaller airport that the jets couldn't use due to insufficient runway length. They were ferried from an AZ boneyard a year or two ago and refurbed for commercial use by Carlos Gomez, a propliner expert.
The USCG used a couple of Martins as VIP planes but I think that was the only military use.
377
can't find the article...I looked at so many trying to find the location to deploy the stairs...I must of misread them talking about military planes and conversions...or possibly was reading a C131 article and not realizing...don't know..
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I don't know if this was from a skydiver, but it's funny. a registration card was sent to the FBI stating they were DB Cooper... :rofl:
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AFAIK the Martin 202 was never a military cargo plane. I think you may be confusing it with the C-131 which was essentially a Convair 340 which was used widely by the USAF. Three surplus C-131s operated by CONQUEST AIR of FL flew relief cargo to Puerto Rico after the recent hurricane. They could go non stop from FL with about 7500 lbs of payload and land at a smaller airport that the jets couldn't use due to insufficient runway length. They were ferried from an AZ boneyard a year or two ago and refurbed for commercial use by Carlos Gomez, a propliner expert.
The USCG used a couple of Martins as VIP planes but I think that was the only military use.
377
can't find the article...I looked at so many trying to find the location to deploy the stairs...I must of misread them talking about military planes and conversions...or possibly was reading a C131 article and not realizing...don't know..
I have flown as a passenger on both C-131s and ex-T29 USAF aircraft. And I don't remember an aft stairs on either one of them.
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The Martin 202 is the one with the rear stairs....the C131 looks like the Martin and might of been in the search links I was reading and didn't notice they were talking about the C131 vs the Martin 202...
I was trying to find out if any of the past planes with rear stairs had any type of controls in the cockpit...
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Yeah, from a distance the Martins and Convairs look VERY similar.
377
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Also, another entry talking about employee's..checking flight crews, and people with grievances, layoff etc.
Ive tried to follow some of these suspects to their final conclusion - NOT HIM. In most cases suspects fail on description details or finger prints. All serious suspects were run through that gauntlet. It didnt matter how well a suspect seemed a good match at first - prints and physical evidence, availability/alibi, and other hard data finally decides each and every suspect. A much smaller group is held as Undecided - Further Investigation. But in all cases it comes down to prints and other hard evidence that either matches or doesn't. The manpower devoted to this involving countless offices and agents etc. was mind boggling!
I wonder if Cooper had some accomplices that helped with this? I am new to this forum and I watched the special on the history channel on DB Cooper and with some things making the news shortly after has got me interested in this case. I also watched the show that had some members of this forum and one question that I have is how long were the steps lowered while the airplane was flying. I saw the theory about Reno and with the weather that was going on that night and I don't buy it.
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Also, another entry talking about employee's..checking flight crews, and people with grievances, layoff etc.
Ive tried to follow some of these suspects to their final conclusion - NOT HIM. In most cases suspects fail on description details or finger prints. All serious suspects were run through that gauntlet. It didnt matter how well a suspect seemed a good match at first - prints and physical evidence, availability/alibi, and other hard data finally decides each and every suspect. A much smaller group is held as Undecided - Further Investigation. But in all cases it comes down to prints and other hard evidence that either matches or doesn't. The manpower devoted to this involving countless offices and agents etc. was mind boggling!
I wonder if Cooper had some accomplices that helped with this? I am new to this forum and I watched the special on the history channel on DB Cooper and with some things making the news shortly after has got me interested in this case. I also watched the show that had some members of this forum and one question that I have is how long were the steps lowered while the airplane was flying. I saw the theory about Reno and with the weather that was going on that night and I don't buy it.
The steps were "unlocked" and put in a free-fall condition about 10 minutes after the airliner took off from SEA-TAC heading to Reno. The wind blast, at a cruise speed of about 225 MPH True Airspeed, essentially kept the stairs in a nearly closed position except when Cooper was on them. As the aircraft was turning off the runway after landing in Reno, the stairs contacted the runway without any serious damage. The aircraft was flown back to Seattle the next day (Thursday, Thanksgiving Day), the minor damage to the stairs was repaired, and it was returned to passenger service the following day (Friday).
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Yeah, from a distance the Martins and Convairs look VERY similar.
377
Question: was the FDR saved and where would it be today?
Do you recall what it was Soderlind thought he found in the FDR data that provided him with a clock on when the jump occurred? (if that happened in Soderlind's analysis at Minneapolis)
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I wonder if Cooper had some accomplices that helped with this? I am new to this forum and I watched the special on the history channel on DB Cooper and with some things making the news shortly after has got me interested in this case....
Welcome to the Forum, DC.
There is no definitive evidence to say there were any accomplices, but theories abound - and in two categories. One is help in performing the skyjacking. Lots of people have posed flight crew as accomplices, but I see no compelling reason to entertain that scenario.
A related option is the idea that equipment and supplies might have been placed in the overhead bins. Again, I see that as a long shot.
For me the most compelling speculation is: did DB Cooper have a getaway team? I say this idea has some merit because I feel Cooper had unique capabilities - he had advanced knowledge of how to jump from a 727. In fact, his knowledge that a 727 could be flown with the aft stairs down was top-secret information.
So, if Cooper had access to top-secret info he might have also had access to a network of top-secret operatives, such as commandos who might have been an extraction team - well-equipped and ready to rock and roll.
I encourage you to read my book where these possibilities are examined in detail. My online news magazine, The Mountain News-WA, also has many DB Cooper postings and is free to read.
In addition, I recommend Geoffrey Gray's SKYJACK, as he describes at least one alleged member of a Cooper getaway team, a fellow named "Jake.".
A warning, though. Much of what is written above is considered controversial, and is strongly mocked here.
Lastly, I don't buy the Reno jump theory at all, and I believe it seriously detracts from the "Expedition Unknown" show. Along those lines I have encouraged the Travel Channel and EU to re-enact the Cooper jump: at night, in the rain, in November, using a round canopy, over the woods in Ariel, wearing a thin business suit.
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Yeah, from a distance the Martins and Convairs look VERY similar.
377
Question: was the FDR saved and where would it be today?
Do you recall what it was Soderlind thought he found in the FDR data that provided him with a clock on when the jump occurred? (if that happened in Soderlind's analysis at Minneapolis)
The FDR tape should have been saved and be in either, or both, the FAA files on this incident and/or in the FBI investigative files.
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I wonder if Cooper had some accomplices that helped with this? I am new to this forum and I watched the special on the history channel on DB Cooper and with some things making the news shortly after has got me interested in this case....
Welcome to the Forum, DC.
There is no definitive evidence to say there were any accomplices, but theories abound - and in two categories. One is help in performing the skyjacking. Lots of people have posed flight crew as accomplices, but I see no compelling reason to entertain that scenario.
A related option is the idea that equipment and supplies might have been placed in the overhead bins. Again, I see that as a long shot.
For me the most compelling speculation is: did DB Cooper have a getaway team? I say this idea has some merit because I feel Cooper had unique capabilities - he had advanced knowledge of how to jump from a 727. In fact, his knowledge that a 727 could be flown with the aft stairs down was top-secret information.
So, if Cooper had access to top-secret info he might have also had access to a network of top-secret operatives, such as commandos who might have been an extraction team - well-equipped and ready to rock and roll.
I encourage you to read my book where these possibilities are examined in detail. My online news magazine, The Mountain News-WA, also has many DB Cooper postings and is free to read.
In addition, I recommend Geoffrey Gray's SKYJACK, as he describes at least one alleged member of a Cooper getaway team, a fellow named "Jake.".
A warning, though. Much of what is written above is considered controversial, and is strongly mocked here.
Lastly, I don't buy the Reno jump theory at all, and I believe it seriously detracts from the "Expedition Unknown" show. Along those lines I have encouraged the Travel Channel and EU to re-enact the Cooper jump: at night, in the rain, in November, using a round canopy, over the woods in Ariel, wearing a thin business suit.
I will look at getting your book. Thanks for the welcome. I am new to researching DB Cooper and wish to find out as much information as I can before forming an opinion. I am also going to get The Last Master Outlaw. I don't know if Colbert is right about his theory on Rackstraw but there was a lot of circumstantial evidence that was shown on the History Channel's show.
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Did you go to our website and look in the vault? tons of info in there for you to catch up on....
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I am new to researching DB Cooper and wish to find out as much information as I can before forming an opinion. I am also going to get The Last Master Outlaw. I don't know if Colbert is right about his theory on Rackstraw but there was a lot of circumstantial evidence that was shown on the History Channel's show.
Last Master Outlaw is an excellent book, but it is not about DB Cooper. It is mostly about the criminal history of Robert Rackstraw.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Ft17Pzm9s
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Thanks, Shut. That's Chris Ingalls hosting the interview. He's been on the DB Cooper case for decades.
As for Richard DeCample, the fuel truck driver, he has been non-responsive to my phone inquiries.
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Bruce wrote: "Last Master Outlaw is an excellent book, but it is not about DB Cooper. It is mostly about the criminal history of Robert Rackstraw."
It is indeed a great read. Tons of great reviews on Amazon. Rackstraw was a SOCIOPATHIC HURRICANE with all the skills needed to do NORJACK. His age is the stumbling block for me however. I sometimes wonder if Rackstraw were DBC, whether the bomb would have been real (he was an explosives expert) and the remains of the 727 and its crew would have been scattered over the NW landscape. The book clearly tags him as a cold-blooded murderer.
377
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Bruce wrote: "Last Master Outlaw is an excellent book, but it is not about DB Cooper. It is mostly about the criminal history of Robert Rackstraw."
It is indeed a great read. Tons of great reviews on Amazon. Rackstraw was a SOCIOPATHIC HURRICANE with all the skills needed to do NORJACK. His age is the stumbling block for me however. I sometimes wonder if Rackstraw were DBC, whether the bomb would have been real (he was an explosives expert) and the remains of the 727 and its crew would have been scattered over the NW landscape. The book clearly tags him as a cold-blooded murderer.
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Yup. Blowing up 305 and watching it's burning fuselage fall to the ground might have been a fun thing to do on the way down to the ground for a guy who killed his pop, buried him in his winter coat, and then dug a hole in the driveway and dumped him in.
I think he also killed his pop's dog, too, if I remember correctly. Airborne Bob ain't no angel.
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Thanks, Shut. That's Chris Ingalls hosting the interview. He's been on the DB Cooper case for decades.
As for Richard DeCample, the fuel truck driver, he has been non-responsive to my phone inquiries.
Someone non-responsive to Bruce Smith -- kind of a common occurrence.
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At least I have you, Meyer. You always respond to my posts...
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At least I have you, Meyer. You always respond to my posts...
So, I guess this means we should be blood brothers then, like the Indians in those pathetic John Wayne movies who would cut themselves? Don't think so. And I've never been a fan of John Wayne. Ain't gonna happen.
Meyer
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Does anyone know if the ticket agent who sold Dan Cooper the ticket was questioned about Cooper?
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Yup. Extensively. The accounts of the interviews are widespread. He got pulled out of a grocery store, as his shift ended just as the skyjacking began.
However, there is uncertainty about whether Dan Cooper signed his ticket, or the agent, Dennis Lysne did. Most feel that Lysne signed the tix, not Coop. But Colbert is leading the charge otherwise...
For more details see SKYJACK, NORJAK, and other books on Cooper.
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Yup. Extensively. The accounts of the interviews are widespread. He got pulled out of a grocery store, as his shift ended just as the skyjacking began.
However, there is uncertainty about whether Dan Cooper signed his ticket, or the agent, Dennis Lysne did. Most feel that Lysne signed the tix, not Coop. But Colbert is leading the charge otherwise...
For more details see SKYJACK, NORJAK, and other books on Cooper.
Contrary to Bruce's statement above, there is no uncertainty whatsoever that Dan Cooper DID NOT sign the ticket. In the 1971 era, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket although he did ask Cooper for his name.
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I believe this started with the agents investigating McCoy...
Now, when you look at the counters from that period you won't see any pens attached to chains that you would think would be there for them to use. the tickets are behind the counter, they fill out the forms, so why would they allow them to put there name on it..
another agent working for NW in Portland stated they do all the writing on the tickets..
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Yup. Extensively. The accounts of the interviews are widespread. He got pulled out of a grocery store, as his shift ended just as the skyjacking began.
However, there is uncertainty about whether Dan Cooper signed his ticket, or the agent, Dennis Lysne did. Most feel that Lysne signed the tix, not Coop. But Colbert is leading the charge otherwise...
For more details see SKYJACK, NORJAK, and other books on Cooper.
Contrary to Bruce's statement above, there is no uncertainty whatsoever that Dan Cooper DID NOT sign the ticket. In the 1971 era, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket although he did ask Cooper for his name.
... and Cooper replied: My name Jose' Hemayonnaise.
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Yup. Extensively. The accounts of the interviews are widespread. He got pulled out of a grocery store, as his shift ended just as the skyjacking began.
However, there is uncertainty about whether Dan Cooper signed his ticket, or the agent, Dennis Lysne did. Most feel that Lysne signed the tix, not Coop. But Colbert is leading the charge otherwise...
For more details see SKYJACK, NORJAK, and other books on Cooper.
Contrary to Bruce's statement above, there is no uncertainty whatsoever that Dan Cooper DID NOT sign the ticket. In the 1971 era, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket although he did ask Cooper for his name.
Well, there you go again, Bruce. R99 is correct. I offered to try to find Lysne a long time to confirm the signature, but I, and others, discovered that Lysne had passed away, and there was no uncertainty that Lysne had signed the ticket. Colbert conjures up fake news to get media attention, he seems not to care about the truth.
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Yup. Extensively. The accounts of the interviews are widespread. He got pulled out of a grocery store, as his shift ended just as the skyjacking began.
However, there is uncertainty about whether Dan Cooper signed his ticket, or the agent, Dennis Lysne did. Most feel that Lysne signed the tix, not Coop. But Colbert is leading the charge otherwise...
For more details see SKYJACK, NORJAK, and other books on Cooper.
Contrary to Bruce's statement above, there is no uncertainty whatsoever that Dan Cooper DID NOT sign the ticket. In the 1971 era, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket although he did ask Cooper for his name.
Well, there you go again, Bruce. R99 is correct. I offered to try to find Lysne a long time to confirm the signature, but I, and others, discovered that Lysne had passed away, and there was no uncertainty that Lysne had signed the ticket. Colbert conjures up fake news to get media attention, he seems not to care about the truth.
I wouldnt be a bit surprised if there was a NWA manual or short course on how to sign in people, prepare, and issue them their ticket. The ticket agent may have been following procedure he was trained to follow.
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Cooper was careful enough to have everything returned to him, including the book of matches Tina tried to throw away, or keep. why would he want to write on the ticket?
Colbert conjures up fake news to get media attention, he seems not to care about the truth.
I don't think that's the case here. agents have claimed Cooper signed the ticket. I don't think Colbert is a model for CNN either...
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There is something interesting that I noticed in the vault, on one the linked websites that I was checking out it was giving descriptions of Cooper from different people. Mitchell who sat across from him said that he had on long underwear under his suit. That's the first time that I heard that.
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Yup. Extensively. The accounts of the interviews are widespread. He got pulled out of a grocery store, as his shift ended just as the skyjacking began.
However, there is uncertainty about whether Dan Cooper signed his ticket, or the agent, Dennis Lysne did. Most feel that Lysne signed the tix, not Coop. But Colbert is leading the charge otherwise...
For more details see SKYJACK, NORJAK, and other books on Cooper.
Contrary to Bruce's statement above, there is no uncertainty whatsoever that Dan Cooper DID NOT sign the ticket. In the 1971 era, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket although he did ask Cooper for his name.
Well, there you go again, Bruce. R99 is correct. I offered to try to find Lysne a long time to confirm the signature, but I, and others, discovered that Lysne had passed away, and there was no uncertainty that Lysne had signed the ticket. Colbert conjures up fake news to get media attention, he seems not to care about the truth.
I wouldnt be a bit surprised if there was a NWA manual or short course on how to sign in people, prepare, and issue them their ticket. The ticket agent may have been following procedure he was trained to follow.
Georger, you can rest assured that the ticket agents had a lot of training on how to process passengers, solve problems before they occurred, and get the planes back in the air fast.
The main reason for the ticket agent doing all the writing probably was that he would write in a legible manner and get the job done real fast. And he could process passengers faster since they would not have to touch the ticket except when leaving the counter.
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Yup. Extensively. The accounts of the interviews are widespread. He got pulled out of a grocery store, as his shift ended just as the skyjacking began.
However, there is uncertainty about whether Dan Cooper signed his ticket, or the agent, Dennis Lysne did. Most feel that Lysne signed the tix, not Coop. But Colbert is leading the charge otherwise...
For more details see SKYJACK, NORJAK, and other books on Cooper.
Contrary to Bruce's statement above, there is no uncertainty whatsoever that Dan Cooper DID NOT sign the ticket. In the 1971 era, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket although he did ask Cooper for his name.
Well, there you go again, Bruce. R99 is correct. I offered to try to find Lysne a long time to confirm the signature, but I, and others, discovered that Lysne had passed away, and there was no uncertainty that Lysne had signed the ticket. Colbert conjures up fake news to get media attention, he seems not to care about the truth.
I wouldnt be a bit surprised if there was a NWA manual or short course on how to sign in people, prepare, and issue them their ticket. The ticket agent may have been following procedure he was trained to follow.
Georger, you can rest assured that the ticket agents had a lot of training on how to process passengers, solve problems before they occurred, and get the planes back in the air fast.
The main reason for the ticket agent doing all the writing probably was that he would write in a legible manner and get the job done real fast. And he could process passengers faster since they would not have to touch the ticket except when leaving the counter.
agree - Kitt said there was training and a manual.
In addition, when you ask and agree to board an airline you are in effect agreeing to give the airline (and the FAA) full and truthful information including your name. That is why a third party must write the name down, in legible form, should someone care to question it for any reason/ Its a legal process you are entering into and agreeing to.
Boarding an airline in the 70s was not a completely free lunch. There were a few rules and protocols every passenger had to agree to. Note that one of Cooper's expressed fears was if there were "sky marshals" (plural) on board! That is a telling admission on Cooper's part. Reflects his knowledge base and his frame of reference; his background. This guy is worldly but he doesn't know NWA and this particular flight. I guess that leaves out the NWA purser Christiansen right there! :rofl:
Not only did Cooper not write his own name on the ticket, our Mr. Cooper is worldly to some extent by his own admission. He has been following skyjackings and what authorities have done to prevent skyjackings, and it's only 1971. And I think the majority of skyjackings in the USA to date have been Cuban related? Cooper is wondering if this NWA milk run shuttle flight between Portland and Seattle might have sky marshals on board! Sky Marshals going home to Seattle for Thanksgiving on the last flight of the day? It's too bad nobody tried any Spanish with him. Did any of the stews speak Spanish?
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Yup. Extensively. The accounts of the interviews are widespread. He got pulled out of a grocery store, as his shift ended just as the skyjacking began.
However, there is uncertainty about whether Dan Cooper signed his ticket, or the agent, Dennis Lysne did. Most feel that Lysne signed the tix, not Coop. But Colbert is leading the charge otherwise...
For more details see SKYJACK, NORJAK, and other books on Cooper.
Contrary to Bruce's statement above, there is no uncertainty whatsoever that Dan Cooper DID NOT sign the ticket. In the 1971 era, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket although he did ask Cooper for his name.
Well, there you go again, Bruce. R99 is correct. I offered to try to find Lysne a long time to confirm the signature, but I, and others, discovered that Lysne had passed away, and there was no uncertainty that Lysne had signed the ticket. Colbert conjures up fake news to get media attention, he seems not to care about the truth.
I wouldnt be a bit surprised if there was a NWA manual or short course on how to sign in people, prepare, and issue them their ticket. The ticket agent may have been following procedure he was trained to follow.
Georger, you can rest assured that the ticket agents had a lot of training on how to process passengers, solve problems before they occurred, and get the planes back in the air fast.
The main reason for the ticket agent doing all the writing probably was that he would write in a legible manner and get the job done real fast. And he could process passengers faster since they would not have to touch the ticket except when leaving the counter.
When you think about this, it was a remarkable admission (or an act of naive stupidity!) on Cooper's part to cozy up to the stews and tell them he had a bomb and then tell him he was concerned about there being sky marshals on board!? What is to prevent these stews from freaking out and screaming - THERE'S A BOMB ON BOARD! There is an able bodied well built college guy right across the aisle! Flo has already proven to be tight lipped and reticent. Hancock is older and not much different in her caution. Mucklow almost has no choice but to take the role of the 'calm country blonde girl' in keeping Cooper's psyche together. Rataczak wants to kill the guy asap! A whole lot of passengers are sitting there apparently clueless.
And Cooper is concerned there might be several sky marshals on board! ?
Gag me with a silver box of TNT! Who signed the ticket? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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Yup. Extensively. The accounts of the interviews are widespread. He got pulled out of a grocery store, as his shift ended just as the skyjacking began.
However, there is uncertainty about whether Dan Cooper signed his ticket, or the agent, Dennis Lysne did. Most feel that Lysne signed the tix, not Coop. But Colbert is leading the charge otherwise...
For more details see SKYJACK, NORJAK, and other books on Cooper.
Contrary to Bruce's statement above, there is no uncertainty whatsoever that Dan Cooper DID NOT sign the ticket. In the 1971 era, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket although he did ask Cooper for his name.
Well, there you go again, Bruce. R99 is correct. I offered to try to find Lysne a long time to confirm the signature, but I, and others, discovered that Lysne had passed away, and there was no uncertainty that Lysne had signed the ticket. Colbert conjures up fake news to get media attention, he seems not to care about the truth.
I wouldnt be a bit surprised if there was a NWA manual or short course on how to sign in people, prepare, and issue them their ticket. The ticket agent may have been following procedure he was trained to follow.
Georger, you can rest assured that the ticket agents had a lot of training on how to process passengers, solve problems before they occurred, and get the planes back in the air fast.
The main reason for the ticket agent doing all the writing probably was that he would write in a legible manner and get the job done real fast. And he could process passengers faster since they would not have to touch the ticket except when leaving the counter.
When you think about this, it was a remarkable admission (or an act of naive stupidity!) on Cooper's part to cozy up to the stews and tell them he had a bomb and then tell him he was concerned about there being sky marshals on board!? What is to prevent these stews from freaking out and screaming - THERE'S A BOMB ON BOARD! There is an able bodied well built college guy right across the aisle! Flo has already proven to be tight lipped and reticent. Hancock is older and not much different in her caution. Mucklow almost has no choice but to take the role of the 'calm country blonde girl' in keeping Cooper's psyche together. Rataczak wants to kill the guy asap! A whole lot of passengers are sitting there apparently clueless.
And Cooper is concerned there might be several sky marshals on board! ?
Gag me with a silver box of TNT! Who signed the ticket? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Cooper's question about the sky marshals may be more significant that it first appears. Seriously, we need a good shrink here.
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Yup. Extensively. The accounts of the interviews are widespread. He got pulled out of a grocery store, as his shift ended just as the skyjacking began.
However, there is uncertainty about whether Dan Cooper signed his ticket, or the agent, Dennis Lysne did. Most feel that Lysne signed the tix, not Coop. But Colbert is leading the charge otherwise...
For more details see SKYJACK, NORJAK, and other books on Cooper.
Contrary to Bruce's statement above, there is no uncertainty whatsoever that Dan Cooper DID NOT sign the ticket. In the 1971 era, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket although he did ask Cooper for his name.
Well, there you go again, Bruce. R99 is correct. I offered to try to find Lysne a long time to confirm the signature, but I, and others, discovered that Lysne had passed away, and there was no uncertainty that Lysne had signed the ticket. Colbert conjures up fake news to get media attention, he seems not to care about the truth.
I wouldnt be a bit surprised if there was a NWA manual or short course on how to sign in people, prepare, and issue them their ticket. The ticket agent may have been following procedure he was trained to follow.
Georger, you can rest assured that the ticket agents had a lot of training on how to process passengers, solve problems before they occurred, and get the planes back in the air fast.
The main reason for the ticket agent doing all the writing probably was that he would write in a legible manner and get the job done real fast. And he could process passengers faster since they would not have to touch the ticket except when leaving the counter.
When you think about this, it was a remarkable admission (or an act of naive stupidity!) on Cooper's part to cozy up to the stews and tell them he had a bomb and then tell him he was concerned about there being sky marshals on board!? What is to prevent these stews from freaking out and screaming - THERE'S A BOMB ON BOARD! There is an able bodied well built college guy right across the aisle! Flo has already proven to be tight lipped and reticent. Hancock is older and not much different in her caution. Mucklow almost has no choice but to take the role of the 'calm country blonde girl' in keeping Cooper's psyche together. Rataczak wants to kill the guy asap! A whole lot of passengers are sitting there apparently clueless.
And Cooper is concerned there might be several sky marshals on board! ?
Gag me with a silver box of TNT! Who signed the ticket? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Cooper's question about the sky marshals may be more significant that it first appears. Seriously, we need a good shrink here.
well it was obviously on his mind for some reason. One obvious reason is control. Did he want the stews to identify any sky marshal on board - would they even know? Or its a general warning not to interfere. Did any other hijackers ask about 'sky marshals on board'? What routes were carrying sky marshals in 1971? Did NWA have any sky marshals on any of their planes?
I wouldnt read too much into this or a 'shrink' may reply: "It means he intended to ride eight Clydesdales abreast and take them all out of the door with him, thus the four parachutes'. ;)
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Yup. Extensively. The accounts of the interviews are widespread. He got pulled out of a grocery store, as his shift ended just as the skyjacking began.
However, there is uncertainty about whether Dan Cooper signed his ticket, or the agent, Dennis Lysne did. Most feel that Lysne signed the tix, not Coop. But Colbert is leading the charge otherwise...
For more details see SKYJACK, NORJAK, and other books on Cooper.
Contrary to Bruce's statement above, there is no uncertainty whatsoever that Dan Cooper DID NOT sign the ticket. In the 1971 era, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket although he did ask Cooper for his name.
Well, there you go again, Bruce. R99 is correct. I offered to try to find Lysne a long time to confirm the signature, but I, and others, discovered that Lysne had passed away, and there was no uncertainty that Lysne had signed the ticket. Colbert conjures up fake news to get media attention, he seems not to care about the truth.
I wouldnt be a bit surprised if there was a NWA manual or short course on how to sign in people, prepare, and issue them their ticket. The ticket agent may have been following procedure he was trained to follow.
Georger, you can rest assured that the ticket agents had a lot of training on how to process passengers, solve problems before they occurred, and get the planes back in the air fast.
The main reason for the ticket agent doing all the writing probably was that he would write in a legible manner and get the job done real fast. And he could process passengers faster since they would not have to touch the ticket except when leaving the counter.
When you think about this, it was a remarkable admission (or an act of naive stupidity!) on Cooper's part to cozy up to the stews and tell them he had a bomb and then tell him he was concerned about there being sky marshals on board!? What is to prevent these stews from freaking out and screaming - THERE'S A BOMB ON BOARD! There is an able bodied well built college guy right across the aisle! Flo has already proven to be tight lipped and reticent. Hancock is older and not much different in her caution. Mucklow almost has no choice but to take the role of the 'calm country blonde girl' in keeping Cooper's psyche together. Rataczak wants to kill the guy asap! A whole lot of passengers are sitting there apparently clueless.
And Cooper is concerned there might be several sky marshals on board! ?
Gag me with a silver box of TNT! Who signed the ticket? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Cooper's question about the sky marshals may be more significant that it first appears. Seriously, we need a good shrink here.
well it was obviously on his mind for some reason. One obvious reason is control. Did he want the stews to identify any sky marshal on board - would they even know? Or its a general warning not to interfere. Did any other hijackers ask about 'sky marshals on board'? What routes were carrying sky marshals in 1971? Did NWA have any sky marshals on any of their planes?
I wouldnt read too much into this or a 'shrink' may reply: "It means he intended to ride eight Clydesdales abreast and take them all out of the door with him, thus the four parachutes'. ;)
I imagine that those of us who survived the DropZone Cooper thread have already heard enough about Clydesdales. :))
For the record, I have never been on an aircraft with a sky marshal, at least to the best of my knowledge.
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Yup. Extensively. The accounts of the interviews are widespread. He got pulled out of a grocery store, as his shift ended just as the skyjacking began.
However, there is uncertainty about whether Dan Cooper signed his ticket, or the agent, Dennis Lysne did. Most feel that Lysne signed the tix, not Coop. But Colbert is leading the charge otherwise...
For more details see SKYJACK, NORJAK, and other books on Cooper.
Contrary to Bruce's statement above, there is no uncertainty whatsoever that Dan Cooper DID NOT sign the ticket. In the 1971 era, the ticket agent did all the writing on the ticket although he did ask Cooper for his name.
Well, there you go again, Bruce. R99 is correct. I offered to try to find Lysne a long time to confirm the signature, but I, and others, discovered that Lysne had passed away, and there was no uncertainty that Lysne had signed the ticket. Colbert conjures up fake news to get media attention, he seems not to care about the truth.
I wouldnt be a bit surprised if there was a NWA manual or short course on how to sign in people, prepare, and issue them their ticket. The ticket agent may have been following procedure he was trained to follow.
Georger, you can rest assured that the ticket agents had a lot of training on how to process passengers, solve problems before they occurred, and get the planes back in the air fast.
The main reason for the ticket agent doing all the writing probably was that he would write in a legible manner and get the job done real fast. And he could process passengers faster since they would not have to touch the ticket except when leaving the counter.
When you think about this, it was a remarkable admission (or an act of naive stupidity!) on Cooper's part to cozy up to the stews and tell them he had a bomb and then tell him he was concerned about there being sky marshals on board!? What is to prevent these stews from freaking out and screaming - THERE'S A BOMB ON BOARD! There is an able bodied well built college guy right across the aisle! Flo has already proven to be tight lipped and reticent. Hancock is older and not much different in her caution. Mucklow almost has no choice but to take the role of the 'calm country blonde girl' in keeping Cooper's psyche together. Rataczak wants to kill the guy asap! A whole lot of passengers are sitting there apparently clueless.
And Cooper is concerned there might be several sky marshals on board! ?
Gag me with a silver box of TNT! Who signed the ticket? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Cooper's question about the sky marshals may be more significant that it first appears. Seriously, we need a good shrink here.
well it was obviously on his mind for some reason. One obvious reason is control. Did he want the stews to identify any sky marshal on board - would they even know? Or its a general warning not to interfere. Did any other hijackers ask about 'sky marshals on board'? What routes were carrying sky marshals in 1971? Did NWA have any sky marshals on any of their planes?
I wouldnt read too much into this or a 'shrink' may reply: "It means he intended to ride eight Clydesdales abreast and take them all out of the door with him, thus the four parachutes'. ;)
I imagine that those of us who survived the DropZone Cooper thread have already heard enough about Clydesdales. :))
For the record, I have never been on an aircraft with a sky marshal, at least to the best of my knowledge.
And for the record when did sky marshals begin? I could do a search but Im wondering how common they were in 71 .... and where were they common? Obviously Cooper was aware of them. Was Cooper a member of law enforcement? Was he someone that could eliminate his prints from the system, as deceased or whatever? Is there a phony death certificate for our Dan Cooper that Cooper put into the system before or shortly after the hijacking? :nono:
From wiki: 'The history of in-flight security began in March 1962 with the US Federal Aviation Administration-directed program to combat airplane hijackings. In that same year alone, there were numerous airplane hijackings (all happening one after another) in the USA that were planned with the ultimate aim to fly to Cuba. In response, the Federal Aviation Administration created the title of FAA Peace Officer. FAA Peace Officers were the first people to ever provide armed security onboard commercial aircraft. The original 18 In-Flight Security Officers, currently known worldwide as IFSOs, were the predecessor to all current in-flight security programs that exist today.[1]'
and this: "Following the mandatory passenger screening enacted by the FAA at U.S. airports beginning in 1973, the customs security officer force was disbanded and its personnel were absorbed by the U.S. Customs Service. By 1974 armed sky marshals were a rarity on U.S. aircraft. The former customs security officers were reassigned as customs patrol officers, customs inspectors, and customs special agents.[5]"
By 1974 armed sky marshals were a rarity on U.S. aircraft. ??
Maybe Cooper was ahead of his time! Or behind the time? Or not current? Out of touch with reality? ??
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Air_Marshal_Service
Did NWO have any sky marshals on any of its domestic flights in 1971 and if so where?
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8) Hi, everybody, hope you don't mind me jumping in without a parachute - I'm years behind some of you in research, but maybe I can help with this. From a different wiki article, I see that in late 1970 Nixon implemented teams of sky marshals, which continued until 1973, when increased screening measures were brought in at airports. (This, by the way, was likely a response to a world-wide pilots' strike in 1972 to protest lax security in the wake of so many hijackings. Can't remember where I saw that but will look it you're a fussy bunch. ;) ) The flights affected were international and domestic, particularly ones out of Florida. Perhaps when DBC referred to Flight 305 being in the right place at the right time, the right place meant on a route not originating out of Florida? Just a thought. The wiki article in question is here - I believe an earlier poster cited a broader (worldwide scope) article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Air_Marshal_Service#History
At the very least, this proves Danny Boy had done his homework. I don't know how well publicized the program was at the time, but I would think the crew would have been aware of them on board. Wouldn't it be more dangerous for them not to be?
There is another article here, but I just got off a night shift and haven't given it a proper read yet. Might be useful for those of you interested in this particular angle.
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/ridingtheplanes.pdf
P.S. Nice to meet you all and thanks to Bruce and Shutter for the help getting on here. I am also looking for a cooler handle. I was thinking of Carmen Sandiego (it takes one to find one) or Doobie Keebler (based on the newsradio sketch below, wherein Jimmy James is arrested as DB Cooper), but am open to suggestion. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhpvyh
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8) Hi, everybody, hope you don't mind me jumping in without a parachute - I'm years behind some of you in research, but maybe I can help with this. From a different wiki article, I see that in late 1970 Nixon implemented teams of sky marshals, which continued until 1973, when increased screening measures were brought in at airports. (This, by the way, was likely a response to a world-wide pilots' strike in 1972 to protest lax security in the wake of so many hijackings. Can't remember where I saw that but will look it you're a fussy bunch. ;) ) The flights affected were international and domestic, particularly ones out of Florida. Perhaps when DBC referred to Flight 305 being in the right place at the right time, the right place meant on a route not originating out of Florida? Just a thought. The wiki article in question is here - I believe an earlier poster cited a broader (worldwide scope) article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Air_Marshal_Service#History
At the very least, this proves Danny Boy had done his homework. I don't know how well publicized the program was at the time, but I would think the crew would have been aware of them on board. Wouldn't it be more dangerous for them not to be?
There is another article here, but I just got off a night shift and haven't given it a proper read yet. Might be useful for those of you interested in this particular angle.
https://www.cbp.gov/sites/default/files/documents/ridingtheplanes.pdf
P.S. Nice to meet you all and thanks to Bruce and Shutter for the help getting on here. I am also looking for a cooler handle. I was thinking of Carmen Sandiego (it takes one to find one) or Doobie Keebler (based on the newsradio sketch below, wherein Jimmy James is arrested as DB Cooper), but am open to suggestion. http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xhpvyh
Good post! Very informative. Lynn, try Lynn as your user name! It works! Its a good name. :)
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A good guide to sky marshals and the whole skyjacking era is the book: The Skies Belong to Us - Love and Terror in the Golden Age of Skyjackings, by Brendon Koerner.
I highly recommend it. Koerner is a friend of GG, btw.
Welcome to Lynn - you finally made it!
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Cooper was careful enough to have everything returned to him, including the book of matches Tina tried to throw away, or keep. why would he want to write on the ticket?
Colbert conjures up fake news to get media attention, he seems not to care about the truth.
I don't think that's the case here. agents have claimed Cooper signed the ticket. I don't think Colbert is a model for CNN either...
I was talking about Colbert in general, and his tactics thus far.
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I believe this started with the agents investigating McCoy...
Now, when you look at the counters from that period you won't see any pens attached to chains that you would think would be there for them to use. the tickets are behind the counter, they fill out the forms, so why would they allow them to put there name on it..
another agent working for NW in Portland stated they do all the writing on the tickets..
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I believe this started with the agents investigating McCoy...
Now, when you look at the counters from that period you won't see any pens attached to chains that you would think would be there for them to use. the tickets are behind the counter, they fill out the forms, so why would they allow them to put there name on it..
another agent working for NW in Portland stated they do all the writing on the tickets..
Good point! Just the physical layout and logistics at check-in make it difficult for passengers/clients to sign tickets. Meyer
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I believe this started with the agents investigating McCoy...
Now, when you look at the counters from that period you won't see any pens attached to chains that you would think would be there for them to use. the tickets are behind the counter, they fill out the forms, so why would they allow them to put there name on it..
another agent working for NW in Portland stated they do all the writing on the tickets..
Good point! Just the physical layout and logistics at check-in make it difficult for passengers/clients to sign tickets. Meyer
looking at vintage pictures of airports show a lot of the counters are high and would make it uncomfortable to write anything...
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That ticket is one of those all too common Cooper vortex ambiguities..
H-bach
"Dennis Lysne, who sold Cooper his ticket was tracked to his home at 7pm. Lysne began thinking of the persons to whom he had sold tickets that day, but none struck him as unusual. when he made contact with Agent Gough, he remembered the name "Dan Cooper" and associated it with a middle-aged man in a business suit. Other than that, Lysne remembered little else"
Apparently, the common procedure was for the ticket agent to fill out the ticket including the name window on the front. However, Colbert talked to agents who claimed at the time exceptions were made.
So, it isn't a verifiable fact that Lynse filled out the name on the ticket though more likely.
I did find tickets from that era where the name was filled out by customers..
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Apparently, the common procedure was for the ticket agent to fill out the ticket including the name window on the front. However, Colbert talked to agents who claimed at the time exceptions were made.
Correct, and I don't believe these agents were part of the "Cooper" investigation. I'm not sure, but I think they were investigating McCoy years later. they also claim Cooper wrote on the back of flight plans matching McCoy MO.
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So, it isn't a verifiable fact that Lynse filled out the name on the ticket though more likely.
I believe it is. we have testimony to the fact from other employee's. this theory came years later and not from direct information. these agents believe McCoy did both hijackings.
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The same agents believe a different tie clip was found on the plane as well. I have never seen the actual proof of the credit card transaction supposedly made by McCoy in Vegas. lots of things they haven't been able to back up to prove McCoy was Cooper...his photo was shown to the crew shortly after the hijacking fresh in there minds. I don't think makeup would cover for him unless he used facial hair (stash, or beard) they all said NO....
They also claim a collect phone call from McCoy in Vegas occurred at around 11:10 from the Tropicana hotel..the plane landed at approx. 11:03, sparks were seen from the stairs while landing. where did he jump to get to a phone by 11:10?
they also claim McCoy gave information nobody would know about Cooper. he said he lost the money as soon as he jumped, but then they state he laundered the money in Vegas, and couldn't explain new things purchased after the hijacking? they run themselves into circles trying to show proof.
One of these guys was the prosecutor with the McCoy trial, and the other was at the Salt lake city FBI...neither had access to the files..Portland FBI office doesn't believe this theory either, so when you have claims of Cooper signing the ticket by these sources one has to question the credibility of the facts.
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The same agents believe a different tie clip was found on the plane as well. I have never seen the actual proof of the credit card transaction supposedly made by McCoy in Vegas. lots of things they haven't been able to back up to prove McCoy was Cooper...his photo was shown to the crew shortly after the hijacking fresh in there minds. I don't think makeup would cover for him unless he used facial hair (stash, or beard) they all said NO....
They also claim a collect phone call from McCoy in Vegas occurred at around 11:10 from the Tropicana hotel..the plane landed at approx. 11:03, sparks were seen from the stairs while landing. where did he jump to get to a phone by 11:10?
they also claim McCoy gave information nobody would know about Cooper. he said he lost the money as soon as he jumped, but then they state he laundered the money in Vegas, and couldn't explain new things purchased after the hijacking? they run themselves into circles trying to show proof.
One of these guys was the prosecutor with the McCoy trial, and the other was at the Salt lake city FBI...neither had access to the files..Portland FBI office doesn't believe this theory either, so when you have claims of Cooper signing the ticket by these sources one has to question the credibility of the facts.
The Lab would have compared prints and dna.
Carr said McCoy is the model for how a hijacking should be done. Compared to that he thought Cooper was a novice.
Did McCoy ask if there were any sky marshals on board?
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I don't know if McCoy asked about sky marshals..it would be a concern with anyone hijacking a plane...
I just don't see the McCoy hijacking as some sort of "upgrade" to his failed hijacking. if anything he probably learned from it vs being part of it...didn't he state he could of done it better to his police buddy?
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I'm researching but can't seem to find the book recalling the medallion switch supposedly made on 305...I know all about Knoss, but could of swore a book was published about this?
the phone call was made Thanksgiving evening...no records of this have ever surfaced either...
It appears to be the same guys from "The Real McCoy" talking about the medallion...
1991 saw the publication of D. B. Cooper: The Real McCoy, by FBI agents Bernie Rhodes and Russell P. Calame. Both authors investigated McCoy's skyjacking case, and their book posits that Cooper and McCoy were really the same person. They cited similar methods of hijacking, and a tie and Brigham Young University medallion[citation needed] with McCoy's initials on the back left on the plane by Cooper.
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I don't think McCoy was Cooper, but I find two items from the Calame/Rhodes investigation to be of great interest:
1. Why they are so quick to draw a link between McCoy and Cooper? It's like a rookie's excitement. Odd.
2. McCoy was not home during the Thanksgiving period in 1971, but was in Las Vegas. I think that is fairly well established.
But what was McCoy doing there? And why does the Seattle Division believe McCoy was home, refuting the evidence that Calame and the SLC FBI discovered on McCoy, ie: gas receipts, phone calls, etc. Strange.
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have they ever produced this evidence?
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:chr2:
I believe this started with the agents investigating McCoy...
Now, when you look at the counters from that period you won't see any pens attached to chains that you would think would be there for them to use. the tickets are behind the counter, they fill out the forms, so why would they allow them to put there name on it..
another agent working for NW in Portland stated they do all the writing on the tickets..
Good point! Just the physical layout and logistics at check-in make it difficult for passengers/clients to sign tickets. Meyer
looking at vintage pictures of airports show a lot of the counters are high and would make it uncomfortable to write anything...
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have they ever produced this evidence?
On youtube they claim they have the evidence of receipts and phone records. on the video titled The Real McCoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0CjoiSi_r0&t=4s
I am going get their book and judge for myself. Something that they also say is that just after Cooper jumped he had lost most of the money.
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have they ever produced this evidence?
Not that I've seen. Calame says in his book that his guys got credit card receipts on the gas and the phone company confirmed the phone calls.
Plus, I have not heard anyone impugn Russ Calame's integrity. So...
GG might be able to shed some light on these dimensions. He was hot-to-trot to find Mrs. McCoy, and spent some time out in SLC and Provo - even talking to her attorney, looking for the kids, etc.
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Good clip on McCoy, DC. Thanks for posting.
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I find it odd that they write a book and fail to show any physical evidence they claim to have. that should of been priority in the book?
It's possible McCoy said he lost the money, but so does a lot of skydivers. then they claim the money found could be the money he offered the crew, but tell stories of McCoy being in Vegas to launder the money?
none of them had access to Portland, or Seattle to look at any of the evidence. both Portland & Seattle have never bought into this story...
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Prints and DNA are critical, but supportive documentation should be presented as well. Shutter is correct in my judgment to question why Calame and Rhodes did not publish any supporting docs in their book.
Remember, there is a third option here for a relationship between the Cooper hijacking and McCoy. McCoy may have participated in the Cooper skyjacking in a supportive fashion, either as a getaway guy or a student of the caper, etc. It doesn't have to be strictly McCoy-was-Cooper, or he not.
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I find it odd that they write a book and fail to show any physical evidence they claim to have. that should of been priority in the book?
It's possible McCoy said he lost the money, but so does a lot of skydivers. then they claim the money found could be the money he offered the crew, but tell stories of McCoy being in Vegas to launder the money?
none of them had access to Portland, or Seattle to look at any of the evidence. both Portland & Seattle have never bought into this story...
Yeah, I don't really see how McCoy could have laundered the money in Vegas or anywhere in the US, let alone the western US, at that time. He could have lost the money, of course. I do try to follow the McCoy theory but have never really thought of him as more than a really talented copycat.
But the irony is, McCoy WAS a criminal. I think it was DB/Dan Cooper who was "copycatting" being a criminal in persona. Two things we know for sure about him: he blended, and he he came off in tone and mannerisms as somewhat genteel. The terms, "No funny stuff" and " I'll do the job" sound like someone who got their criminal talk from crime dramas. ("No funny business or I'll ice the dame, see?") I'd bet this skyjacking was his first and last felony.
Now I don't know how McCoy comes off to you lads, but in EVERY photo of him I've seen - this is a guy I'd have noticed, and I'm a lazy noticer. He looks like someone you wouldn't want to meet in an alley. Even a bowling alley. (Gossett, oddly, does not, although his c.v. sounds like something from Catch Me If You Can in places. He had a psychic show, really? Ditto Peterson, his old photos kinda look like someone's dependable uncle. McCoy looks like the uncle who comes by to raid your dad's liquor when he's not home.)
Back to the airline ticket counter thing, I haven't found an NWA one yet, but all the late 60's-early 70s photos I'm finding are showing high counters - some with barely enough space at the passenger level to write anything at all but with a desk-like space for the agent. Unless someone can show some proof or can get a ticket agent at the time to testify that was a lax practice, I'm not buying that Cooper filled in his own ticket.
https://www.southwestaircommunity.com/legacyfs/online/wordpress/images/uploads/files/blusk/fbf-23-3main_ticket_counter.jpg
https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/view-of-the-united-airlines-ticket-counter-at-lax-airport-circa1970-picture-id620026076
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DORsCb0WsAAknZ7.jpg
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I'd like to add Paul Cini into the mix as we try reading tea leaves here in Cooper World. Did DBC know Paul Cini? Did McCoy know Cini? Was there any connection between Cini and anyone? Did any of the copycats know other copycats?
Or even more mysteriously, was there a third-party who helped coach Cini, Cooper, and McCoy? Who got this ball rolling?
Last thought: McCoy got a pile of money from somewhere during the 1971 holiday period so that he could fly his family - and sister-in-law - back to North Carolina. Then buy a new set of tires, too! Where did he get that money? Blackjack in Vegas, or did he earn it by participating in the Cooper escapade in some fashion that required him to fly in and out of McCarran?
I believe Calame and his investigators found legitimate evidence that places McCoy in Vegas over the T-Day holiday in 1971. But I think they are wrong in thinking that McCoy was Cooper. I think they need to envision a more expansive scenario that includes all the facts, and the McCoy-is-Cooper scenario doesn't.
Further, I think the Portland and Seattle Divisions are wrong in dismissing Calame's findings regarding McCoy, but correct in disregarding Calame's interpretation of the McCoy evidence.
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I'd like to add Paul Cini into the mix as we try reading tea leaves here in Cooper World. Did DBC know Paul Cini? Did McCoy know Cini? Was there any connection between Cini and anyone? Did any of the copycats know other copycats?
Or even more mysteriously, was there a third-party who helped coach Cini, Cooper, and McCoy? Who got this ball rolling?
Last thought: McCoy got a pile of money from somewhere during the 1971 holiday period so that he could fly his family - and sister-in-law - back to North Carolina. Then buy a new set of tires, too! Where did he get that money? Blackjack in Vegas, or did he earn it by participating in the Cooper escapade in some fashion that required him to fly in and out of McCarran?
I believe Calame and his investigators found legitimate evidence that places McCoy in Vegas over the T-Day holiday in 1971. But I think they are wrong in thinking that McCoy was Cooper. I think they need to envision a more expansive scenario that includes all the facts, and the McCoy-is-Cooper scenario doesn't.
Further, I think the Portland and Seattle Divisions are wrong in dismissing Calame's findings regarding McCoy, but correct in disregarding Calame's interpretation of the McCoy evidence.
Have given that no thought yet. Cini did fly out of Vancouver, though, the source of one of the letters. Which may mean nothing as the letters may mean nothing. I'm reading that Cini's was a quest for fame, according to a shrink who thought this was most skyjackers' prime motivator, and clearly did not bank on D.B. Cooper. Still, Cini himself seems to have stated that. He also claims to have been inspired by a skyjacking he saw on TV and a eureka moment of jumping out of the plane.
It's possible DBC had been planning the jump for some time but Cini's move expedited his plans; it was only a matter of time before someone thought of the aft stairs and Boeing sealed them up in-flight. The story I've seen told was that Cini was kind of the Foster Brooks of hijackers, but I'm sure you know more. Here's a story about the FA - an older lady who in her own way was the Tina of the piece. Has anyone interviewed Cini? I'm finding several people by that name, but no obit for him, and one page that lists his occupation as: hijacker, truck driver. https://www.mississauga.com/blogs/post/4546265-meet-mississauga-s-reluctant-but-meritorious-cross-of-valour-recipient/
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Remember, there is a third option here for a relationship between the Cooper hijacking and McCoy. McCoy may have participated in the Cooper skyjacking in a supportive fashion, either as a getaway guy or a student of the caper, etc. It doesn't have to be strictly McCoy-was-Cooper, or he not.
You think McCoy would allow Cooper to fly the plane blind, no direction, or updates? again, no similarities between the two.
McCoy displayed plenty of arrogant's..he said he could do it better, he flew a helicopter looking for himself :rofl: that's hats off in my book, balls to the wall...he was comfortable enough to keep everything right in his home thinking nothing about being caught.
His arrogant's/mouth did him in, or we might of had two unsolved hijackings. IMO, we have McCoy mocking Cooper. he's on record stating he probably lost the money, he showed exactly how to land where needed, and how it needed to be done...all we hear about Cooper is he could of seen the lights from the dam? the crew was given free airspace. they decided V23 was the best bet, but this was mainly further down the path where the terrain was creeping up on them altitude wise. they could of easily flew anywhere without alarming Cooper. Rat wanted to dump him in the ocean. if Cooper had a watch he would be flying on the honor system, hoping they were flying at the speed and direction he requested. McCoy had constant updates in order to land so close to his LZ. are we suggesting Cooper jumped where he lived? where exactly are the similarities? demands typed on flight plans? they said Cooper had makeup on his hands, did McCoy? they noticed right away he had makeup on..IMO, I see a novice meeting a pro, or a pro mocking a novice.....McCoy putting makeup on was done because he came on the plane with no makeup..it was meant to distract to allow the memory to fail when he first boarded the plane..didn't matter what it looked like...
Then, lets not forget that pesky little tie clip...I have the same clip. it's very small and I find it odd that most of the suspects had one, or they remember him having the clip. I don't see this clip being like the hope diamond that you would remember seeing decades later..it's hardly noticeable on the tie to begin with...
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At the very least, this proves Danny Boy had done his homework. I don't know how well publicized the program was at the time, but I would think the crew would have been aware of them on board. Wouldn't it be more dangerous for them not to be?
I'm not sure what the rules were in the 70's, but they have to identify themselves as Marshal's at the gates, and with the crew...they don't like this option at all...
Federal air marshals travel incognito when they fly.
That's false, says Biles. FAMs are required to identify themselves to the gate crew and flight crew. But many don't like that approach and would prefer to fly undercover and unknown to everyone.
"It can be a disadvantage," says Biles. "The flight attendants might hand you a bigger bottle of water or do something else out of the ordinary that an observant person with bad intentions might notice."
Casaretti notes that the air marshals of most other countries fly incognito, adding that even then, "it's pretty evident when you walk down the aisle and see a guy who looks out of place, for example in good physical condition with a military haircut sitting in first class. According to the TSA, even if other passengers guess who the FAMs are, seeing them there promotes confidence in air travel."
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Remember, there is a third option here for a relationship between the Cooper hijacking and McCoy. McCoy may have participated in the Cooper skyjacking in a supportive fashion, either as a getaway guy or a student of the caper, etc. It doesn't have to be strictly McCoy-was-Cooper, or he not.
You think McCoy would allow Cooper to fly the plane blind, no direction, or updates? again, no similarities between the two.
McCoy displayed plenty of arrogant's..he said he could do it better, he flew a helicopter looking for himself :rofl: that's hats off in my book, balls to the wall...he was comfortable enough to keep everything right in his home thinking nothing about being caught.
His arrogant's/mouth did him in, or we might of had two unsolved hijackings. IMO, we have McCoy mocking Cooper. he's on record stating he probably lost the money, he showed exactly how to land where needed, and how it needed to be done...all we hear about Cooper is he could of seen the lights from the dam? the crew was given free airspace. they decided V23 was the best bet, but this was mainly further down the path where the terrain was creeping up on them altitude wise. they could of easily flew anywhere without alarming Cooper. Rat wanted to dump him in the ocean. if Cooper had a watch he would be flying on the honor system, hoping they were flying at the speed and direction he requested. McCoy had constant updates in order to land so close to his LZ. are we suggesting Cooper jumped where he lived? where exactly are the similarities? demands typed on flight plans? they said Cooper had makeup on his hands, did McCoy? they noticed right away he had makeup on..IMO, I see a novice meeting a pro, or a pro mocking a novice.....McCoy putting makeup on was done because he came on the plane with no makeup..it was meant to distract to allow the memory to fail when he first boarded the plane..didn't matter what it looked like...
Then, lets not forget that pesky little tie clip...I have the same clip. it's very small and I find it odd that most of the suspects had one, or they remember him having the clip. I don't see this clip being like the hope diamond that you would remember seeing decades later..it's hardly noticeable on the tie to begin with...
Shutter, what was that about make-up on DBC's hands? I haven't read that before. Where are you finding it?
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It's in the book "The Real McCoy" and is discussed in the video recently posted here about McCoy. this is another reason I have credibility issue's with these guys...
The gang from Utah claim the following
1) gas receipts made by McCoy in Vegas
2) collect phone to his house made from the Tropicana (Vegas)
3) Cooper had typed demands on flight plans
4) Cooper had stains on his fingers believed to come from makeup.
none of the above has any documents to support what they are claiming...the Portland & Seattle FBI doesn't buy into this, in fact the Portland office openly state this in the video above. I think it's possible they are using second, third hand hearsay evidence within the FBI and could be the reason they have no documentation as proof..
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA7CKvoKEmE
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It's in the book "The Real McCoy" and is discussed in the video recently posted here about McCoy. this is another reason I have credibility issue's with these guys...
The gang from Utah claim the following
1) gas receipts made by McCoy in Vegas
2) collect phone to his house made from the Tropicana (Vegas)
3) Cooper had typed demands on flight plans
4) Cooper had stains on his fingers believed to come from makeup.
none of the above has any documents to support what they are claiming...the Portland & Seattle FBI doesn't buy into this, in fact the Portland office openly state this in the video above. I think it's possible they are using second, third hand hearsay evidence within the FBI and could be the reason they have no documentation as proof..
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA7CKvoKEmE
Yeah, I'm with you. The first chunk of FBI vault stuff I read was stories about guys who fooled a Newsweek reporter with a trumped-up DBC confession tale, and that was early days. I'm just waiting to read the book about how DB Cooper was the same woman who shot J.R. ;)
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Have you went through all the documents in our vault? Tom Colbert also has a lot of files...
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
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Have you went through all the documents in our vault? Tom Colbert also has a lot of files...
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
I was reading some of the passenger descriptions of Cooper and a number of them thought that he was 35 and 5'9 to 5'10. It just makes you wonder about some of the suspects that may have been eliminated because they didn't fit the description of 6'0 and mid 40's. It also makes me wonder about a person that wass in there late 20's but looked older could have Cooper. Just a few thoughts after I did some reading.
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Have you went through all the documents in our vault? Tom Colbert also has a lot of files...
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
I was reading some of the passenger descriptions of Cooper and a number of them thought that he was 35 and 5'9 to 5'10. It just makes you wonder about some of the suspects that may have been eliminated because they didn't fit the description of 6'0 and mid 40's. It also makes me wonder about a person that wass in there late 20's but looked older could have Cooper. Just a few thoughts after I did some reading.
You have to remember that all the passengers never knew what was going on, and most only got a quick look at him. they had no reason to remember him in detail. this would be similar to you trying to remember what the people in line at the store looked like 20 minutes after you left. you had no reason to remember them so it's not going to be accurate...most guessed the height never seeing him standing up...
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Have you went through all the documents in our vault? Tom Colbert also has a lot of files...
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
I was reading some of the passenger descriptions of Cooper and a number of them thought that he was 35 and 5'9 to 5'10. It just makes you wonder about some of the suspects that may have been eliminated because they didn't fit the description of 6'0 and mid 40's. It also makes me wonder about a person that wass in there late 20's but looked older could have Cooper. Just a few thoughts after I did some reading.
You have to remember that all the passengers never knew what was going on, and most only got a quick look at him. they had no reason to remember him in detail. this would be similar to you trying to remember what the people in line at the store looked like 20 minutes after you left. you had no reason to remember them so it's not going to be accurate...most guessed the height never seeing him standing up...
While I understand what your saying, Eyewitness accounts are not always accurate. Here is a link to an article that is an interesting read. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/
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correct, but most crimes last only seconds leaving little room for a good description. the major witnesses spent considerable time with Cooper. we have several witnesses giving similar descriptions that seen Cooper for a long period of time. this case is not like a typical crime so the average stats will conflict with this crime. IMO...
Have you read the PDF with Agent Larry Carr on Dropzone? he explains a lot of this on that thread..
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correct, but most crimes last only seconds leaving little room for a good description. the major witnesses spent considerable time with Cooper. we have several witnesses giving similar descriptions that seen Cooper for a long period of time. this case is not like a typical crime so the average stats will conflict with this crime. IMO...
Have you read the PDF with Agent Larry Carr on Dropzone? he explains a lot of this on that thread..
I will have to check that out.
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Agent Larry Carr....
If your willing to accept that these individuals were not able to obtain basic physical identifiers for Cooper then he could have been of any race, any height and any weight. The description came from many who saw him, not just Schaffner and Mucklow. Several passengers sat near Cooper and noticed him because of his actions. They reported a physical description of Cooper as Schaffner and Mucklow. As did the ticket agent in Portland.
Under the "trust no I-witness" philosophy, there is no base of fact to go from, maybe he was actually a she? Where do you stop? there has to be a baseline of fact, you simply cannot conduct an effective investigation if every human being is a suspect
There is the key difference, "it happened so fast" Not the same in the Cooper case. Mucklow spent almost five hours with Cooper, I think she could have got the base physical indentifiers correct, especially when the others reported almost the same.
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Shutter wrote: "There is the key difference, "it happened so fast" Not the same in the Cooper case."
Agree. Tina's hours long encounter was not the typical crime eyewitness situation. I wonder if any solid research exists on eyewitness accuracy when the period of observation was hours instead of seconds?
377
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Shutter wrote: "There is the key difference, "it happened so fast" Not the same in the Cooper case."
Agree. Tina's hours long encounter was not the typical crime eyewitness situation. I wonder if any solid research exists on eyewitness accuracy when the period of observation was hours instead of seconds?
377
I'm sure you would find the description to be more accurate. you still have people that don't see important details, everyone is different. when you have several people with similar conclusions, the odds increase with it's accuracy...
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Shutter wrote: "There is the key difference, "it happened so fast" Not the same in the Cooper case."
Agree. Tina's hours long encounter was not the typical crime eyewitness situation. I wonder if any solid research exists on eyewitness accuracy when the period of observation was hours instead of seconds?
377
What I do know is that there would be a stressfull situation to be in. In theory I understand what you and agent Carr are saying, I just wonder how much stress could take away from a good description of the person committing the crime.
I'm sure you would find the description to be more accurate. you still have people that don't see important details, everyone is different. when you have several people with similar conclusions, the odds increase with it's accuracy...
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What I do know is that there would be a stressfull situation to be in. In theory I understand what you and agent Carr are saying, I just wonder how much stress could take away from a good description of the person committing the crime.
A lot of people seem to miss the point with this issue..no matter what you will have stress with any given crime. you will take this into consideration. we have the main witnesses giving very similar descriptions (under stress). if we had mixed descriptions such as the passengers we would not have a good description to go on, but that doesn't seem to be the case. it will probably boil down to the sketch being off more than anything if Cooper is ever ID'd. the fact of them given similar descriptions kind of tells you that stress didn't play too much of a roll.
Just my opinion....
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What I do know is that there would be a stressfull situation to be in. In theory I understand what you and agent Carr are saying, I just wonder how much stress could take away from a good description of the person committing the crime.
A lot of people seem to miss the point with this issue..no matter what you will have stress with any given crime. you will take this into consideration. we have the main witnesses giving very similar descriptions (under stress). if we had mixed descriptions such as the passengers we would not have a good description to go on, but that doesn't seem to be the case. it will probably boil down to the sketch being off more than anything if Cooper is ever ID'd. the fact of them given similar descriptions kind of tells you that stress didn't play too much of a roll.
Just my opinion....
The only description that really matters is Tina Mucklow's. We seem to underestimate her ability and training. As a stew, she is trained to notice details, and that especially pertains to emergency, life-threatening situations. She had 5 hours! Not five seconds or five minutes, but 5 hours! After five hours -- regardless of any stress, trauma, or otherwise -- she is going to note and remember key features, mannerisms, and quirks of this guy. That is what she was trained to do! And that is what she did! No one seems to mention that about her. We all assume she is at the same intelligence level and would react in much the same way as most of us. Not true. She was a trained professional. She will be able to do more than any of us or more than the average guy or gal sitting on an airplane looking around or more than anyone trying to hit on one of the stewardesses. I trust her description, and contrary to what Bruce Smith says or thinks in his "professional" psychoanalysis of Tina Mucklow, I think she was pretty sane and normal, then and after.
Meyer
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Have you went through all the documents in our vault? Tom Colbert also has a lot of files...
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
Am mostly using my Cooper obsession for a fiction story at the moment, but have been reading as much as I can, rest-of-life permitting. A lot of the FBI "Mad Libs" docs, the Geoffrey Grey uploads with the witness interviews, some of the Citizen Sleuth stuff, particularly the Tena Bar/Palmer report analyses, and as much as I can of the fab Sluggo site (is Sluggo still around, by the way?) Next pay is treat-self-to-books time. My main interest for the fiction story is what actually happened on the plane (and at the airport). But even that is pretty hard to pin down, with witnesses at times even contradicting their own testimonies. Have learned a great deal about memory and eyewitnesses! I did notice in the original news (Cronkite) vid georger posted something I hadn't really paid attention to before - the passengers coming off the plane. Lots of men in suits! (I again refer to the bowler hat scene of the Thomas Crown remake). On my first trip through Toronto airport as a kid, I remember thinking how all the men in suits looked alike. Perfect disguise unto itself. Oh, and you can also see in the video the cowboy who is mentioned in the transcripts and who annoyed DBC, but doesn't seem to have been interviewed. Sometimes I have to take a few days' breather- as the words of a huge 1971 hit go, "Where Do I Begin?" :) It's fun having people to talk to about this stuff, though.
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Have you went through all the documents in our vault? Tom Colbert also has a lot of files...
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
Am mostly using my Cooper obsession for a fiction story at the moment, but have been reading as much as I can, rest-of-life permitting. A lot of the FBI "Mad Libs" docs, the Geoffrey Grey uploads with the witness interviews, some of the Citizen Sleuth stuff, particularly the Tena Bar/Palmer report analyses, and as much as I can of the fab Sluggo site (is Sluggo still around, by the way?) Next pay is treat-self-to-books time. My main interest for the fiction story is what actually happened on the plane (and at the airport). But even that is pretty hard to pin down, with witnesses at times even contradicting their own testimonies. Have learned a great deal about memory and eyewitnesses! I did notice in the original news (Cronkite) vid georger posted something I hadn't really paid attention to before - the passengers coming off the plane. Lots of men in suits! (I again refer to the bowler hat scene of the Thomas Crown remake). On my first trip through Toronto airport as a kid, I remember thinking how all the men in suits looked alike. Perfect disguise unto itself. Oh, and you can also see in the video the cowboy who is mentioned in the transcripts and who annoyed DBC, but doesn't seem to have been interviewed. Sometimes I have to take a few days' breather- as the words of a huge 1971 hit go, "Where Do I Begin?" :) It's fun having people to talk to about this stuff, though.
Sluggo is apparently still alive, there is no information about him dying, but he has not responded publicly to any attempts to contact him, either directly at his home or online, in several years.
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Have you went through all the documents in our vault? Tom Colbert also has a lot of files...
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
Am mostly using my Cooper obsession for a fiction story at the moment, but have been reading as much as I can, rest-of-life permitting. A lot of the FBI "Mad Libs" docs, the Geoffrey Grey uploads with the witness interviews, some of the Citizen Sleuth stuff, particularly the Tena Bar/Palmer report analyses, and as much as I can of the fab Sluggo site (is Sluggo still around, by the way?) Next pay is treat-self-to-books time. My main interest for the fiction story is what actually happened on the plane (and at the airport). But even that is pretty hard to pin down, with witnesses at times even contradicting their own testimonies. Have learned a great deal about memory and eyewitnesses! I did notice in the original news (Cronkite) vid georger posted something I hadn't really paid attention to before - the passengers coming off the plane. Lots of men in suits! (I again refer to the bowler hat scene of the Thomas Crown remake). On my first trip through Toronto airport as a kid, I remember thinking how all the men in suits looked alike. Perfect disguise unto itself. Oh, and you can also see in the video the cowboy who is mentioned in the transcripts and who annoyed DBC, but doesn't seem to have been interviewed. Sometimes I have to take a few days' breather- as the words of a huge 1971 hit go, "Where Do I Begin?" :) It's fun having people to talk to about this stuff, though.
Sluggo is apparently still alive, there is no information about him dying, but he has not responded publicly to any attempts to contact him, either directly at his home or online, in several years.
Sluggo posted to a non-Cooper site not too long ago which I noticed. His site is still up.
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sounds like he is no longer interested in the case...
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sounds like he is no longer interested in the case...
Perhaps he decided it was unsolvable, or got tired of conjecture/infighting. I was reading a lot on an older Cooper chat site - can't remember what it was called - but eventually abandoned it because two people in particular seemed to hijack (ha-ha) every thread screaming about their favourite suspects and there was a lot of bickering in general. This site does a better job shutting that down, thought I did see somebody ranting about Obama or Trump or Rosie or somebody the other day, and frankly if I could stand to hear about current US politics, I'd be reading about that rather than digging into a case that's almost as old as I am. I certainly didn't mean to imply Sluggo had passed on, and I'm very glad to hear he is still with us!
I do have a fave suspect myself, but try to keep an open mind. I am not overly interested in conspiracy theories; however, it is crystal clear just reading the basic documents in this case that there are either major chunks missing from even the witness interviews, or the FBI screwed up on those. So I'm also staying open to critique of the FBI investigation. (Plus, y'know. Hoover.)
I do think outside-the-box thinking is as important in this case as the rather limited evidence available. (I'm gonna start having dreams about those missing cigarette butts, not good as I'm trying to quit smoking for 2018! ;) ) I'm glad so many are focusing on the scientific aspects of the case, as I have nothing to contribute re: the technicalities of parachuting, cartography, or dredging, for example.
But I've always been a mystery obsessive (unsolved stuff drives me batty), and I'm good at analysing little details. (Agatha Christie has only tricked me thrice in 80+ books. ;) For example, Tina's testimony mentions Cooper's fine mannerisms. Having seen my fave suspect on video, I am sure he possesses them; I would imagine someone "between genders" like Dayton may have as well. Eliminating suspects based on looks is a bit tricky in this guessing game (though I'm willing to eliminate Weber based on those ears - an impossible characteristic to disguise). But things like a rough way of speaking, uneducated diction, or a lack of those genteel mannerisms could perhaps eliminate some suspects.
Sorry I'm all over the board here. So much stuff! But I'm not sure the case is unsolvable, despite its labyrinthine nature. The skydiving community in 1971 was small. I'm amazed how often I've typed in a suspect's name and found them mentioned on some skydiving forum in non-Cooper-related tales. (For any skydiver who may be on here, by the way - from what heights were people doing those "batwing" type dives in 1971?)
Oh, one thing I do know a lot about: extreme temperatures. I lived in Labrador (northern Canada, just below the Far North) growing up; I lived in Vancouver, BC as an adult. Both about 16+ years. School was cancelled in Labrador at -63 to -83 degrees Celsius, windchill included. We were outdoors in the cold at -40 or lower regularly, for long periods. We did not die. Some people went out in shirtsleeves at -10 or lower. My only weather issues on the West Coast were the lack of sunlight due to the months of rain. So unless someone thinks Cooper died of Vitamin D deficiency during the jump, I'm not buying death by exposure. (Oh, by the way, science fans - don't know if anyone has mentioned it here, I'm certain someone must have by now, but just in case, remember that the calculation method for windchill changed at the turn of the millennium. Those numbers above were recorded in the old system. :) )
Now, of course, jumping out of a plane into a storm is not the same as walking into one. But presuming Cooper was an experienced skydiver and didn't get hit by lightning, I do not buy that he died from exposure. The most cursory read of parachuting sites convinces me the jump was totally survivable. Landing in the woods is something else again. (This is how far this Cooper takes you in research: I actually looked up when bears hibernate in the Pacific Northwest. Late November, by the way.)
I'll end it here, sorry for babbling. Love the forum - awesome job moderating, Shutter. You all make me feel less nuts for thinking of 1971 every time someone mentions a plane. (Like that dude today who got in trouble for escaping a long delay by emergency exiting onto the wing. All I could think was, "What if there's a hijacker on board and that's why the plane's grounded, you moron?" ;) ) Hope 2018 treats you all well.
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That sounds like Dropzone where two people "hijacked" the thread..suspects are a complicated thing with this case..most tend to get very angry when you disagree with them..some go for years trying to discredit you....
Thank you for the kind words...you appear to be a breath of fresh air needed on this forum....
Shutter
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sounds like he is no longer interested in the case...
Perhaps he decided it was unsolvable, or got tired of conjecture/infighting. I was reading a lot on an older Cooper chat site - can't remember what it was called - but eventually abandoned it because two people in particular seemed to hijack (ha-ha) every thread screaming about their favourite suspects and there was a lot of bickering in general. This site does a better job shutting that down, thought I did see somebody ranting about Obama or Trump or Rosie or somebody the other day, and frankly if I could stand to hear about current US politics, I'd be reading about that rather than digging into a case that's almost as old as I am. I certainly didn't mean to imply Sluggo had passed on, and I'm very glad to hear he is still with us!
I do have a fave suspect myself, but try to keep an open mind. I am not overly interested in conspiracy theories; however, it is crystal clear just reading the basic documents in this case that there are either major chunks missing from even the witness interviews, or the FBI screwed up on those. So I'm also staying open to critique of the FBI investigation. (Plus, y'know. Hoover.)
I do think outside-the-box thinking is as important in this case as the rather limited evidence available. (I'm gonna start having dreams about those missing cigarette butts, not good as I'm trying to quit smoking for 2018! ;) ) I'm glad so many are focusing on the scientific aspects of the case, as I have nothing to contribute re: the technicalities of parachuting, cartography, or dredging, for example.
But I've always been a mystery obsessive (unsolved stuff drives me batty), and I'm good at analysing little details. (Agatha Christie has only tricked me thrice in 80+ books. ;) For example, Tina's testimony mentions Cooper's fine mannerisms. Having seen my fave suspect on video, I am sure he possesses them; I would imagine someone "between genders" like Dayton may have as well. Eliminating suspects based on looks is a bit tricky in this guessing game (though I'm willing to eliminate Weber based on those ears - an impossible characteristic to disguise). But things like a rough way of speaking, uneducated diction, or a lack of those genteel mannerisms could perhaps eliminate some suspects.
Sorry I'm all over the board here. So much stuff! But I'm not sure the case is unsolvable, despite its labyrinthine nature. The skydiving community in 1971 was small. I'm amazed how often I've typed in a suspect's name and found them mentioned on some skydiving forum in non-Cooper-related tales. (For any skydiver who may be on here, by the way - from what heights were people doing those "batwing" type dives in 1971?)
Oh, one thing I do know a lot about: extreme temperatures. I lived in Labrador (northern Canada, just below the Far North) growing up; I lived in Vancouver, BC as an adult. Both about 16+ years. School was cancelled in Labrador at -63 to -83 degrees Celsius, windchill included. We were outdoors in the cold at -40 or lower regularly, for long periods. We did not die. Some people went out in shirtsleeves at -10 or lower. My only weather issues on the West Coast were the lack of sunlight due to the months of rain. So unless someone thinks Cooper died of Vitamin D deficiency during the jump, I'm not buying death by exposure. (Oh, by the way, science fans - don't know if anyone has mentioned it here, I'm certain someone must have by now, but just in case, remember that the calculation method for windchill changed at the turn of the millennium. Those numbers above were recorded in the old system. :) )
Now, of course, jumping out of a plane into a storm is not the same as walking into one. But presuming Cooper was an experienced skydiver and didn't get hit by lightning, I do not buy that he died from exposure. The most cursory read of parachuting sites convinces me the jump was totally survivable. Landing in the woods is something else again. (This is how far this Cooper takes you in research: I actually looked up when bears hibernate in the Pacific Northwest. Late November, by the way.)
I'll end it here, sorry for babbling. Love the forum - awesome job moderating, Shutter. You all make me feel less nuts for thinking of 1971 every time someone mentions a plane. (Like that dude today who got in trouble for escaping a long delay by emergency exiting onto the wing. All I could think was, "What if there's a hijacker on board and that's why the plane's grounded, you moron?" ;) ) Hope 2018 treats you all well.
Good post - thanks!
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Have you went through all the documents in our vault? Tom Colbert also has a lot of files...
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
Am mostly using my Cooper obsession for a fiction story at the moment, but have been reading as much as I can, rest-of-life permitting. A lot of the FBI "Mad Libs" docs, the Geoffrey Grey uploads with the witness interviews, some of the Citizen Sleuth stuff, particularly the Tena Bar/Palmer report analyses, and as much as I can of the fab Sluggo site (is Sluggo still around, by the way?)
The question of "Where is Sluggo?" has been asked by many. I will try emailing him again, but the last contact I had with him was several years ago. He did not give me much information on why he has seemingly dropped out of Cooper World.
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Last post has been removed...we are going to focus on DB Cooper, and less about poking members on this forum...
Shutter
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I've checked my records on Sluggo, but no response as of the moment. Robert 99 posted a few years ago on Sluggo. Any update, R99?
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Was it possible for a third party to listen to the plane/tower comms?
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Was it possible for a third party to listen to the plane/tower comms?
according to Tom Kaye ham operators were listening in and helped with timing issues...
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I've checked my records on Sluggo, but no response as of the moment. Robert 99 posted a few years ago on Sluggo. Any update, R99?
Read reply #1440 and later ones above.
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Anybody consider the C-9A Nightingale as inspiration.. used for medical evacuations and special missions, has the aft stairs and ex USAF military would have some experience.
C-9A Nightingale - 21 aeromedical evacuation aircraft based on the DC-9-32CF for U.S. Air Force delivered during 1968–69.
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Anybody consider the C-9A Nightingale as inspiration.. used for medical evacuations and special missions, has the aft stairs and ex USAF military would have some experience.
C-9A Nightingale - 21 aeromedical evacuation aircraft based on the DC-9-32CF for U.S. Air Force delivered during 1968–69.
But it couldn't lower the aft stairs in flight. The 727 was the only one that could do that.
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Was it possible for a third party to listen to the plane/tower comms?
according to Tom Kaye ham operators were listening in and helped with timing issues...
Please elaborate...
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Anybody consider the C-9A Nightingale as inspiration.. used for medical evacuations and special missions, has the aft stairs and ex USAF military would have some experience.
C-9A Nightingale - 21 aeromedical evacuation aircraft based on the DC-9-32CF for U.S. Air Force delivered during 1968–69.
But it couldn't lower the aft stairs in flight. The 727 was the only one that could do that.
Is that for the pre 1970 C-9A Nightingale... Looking for info on that model and use.. has it ever taken off with stairs down during military ops?
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Anybody consider the C-9A Nightingale as inspiration.. used for medical evacuations and special missions, has the aft stairs and ex USAF military would have some experience.
C-9A Nightingale - 21 aeromedical evacuation aircraft based on the DC-9-32CF for U.S. Air Force delivered during 1968–69.
But it couldn't lower the aft stairs in flight. The 727 was the only one that could do that.
Is that for the pre 1970 C-9A Nightingale... Looking for info on that model and use.. has it ever taken off with stairs down during military ops?
In 1971, the 727 was the only American airliner that could lower its aft stairs in flight and that information was known to only a few people.
I do not have any information on the C-9, but McDonnel-Douglas apparently did not have to make any modifications to the DC-9 airliner frustrate hijackers.
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Anybody consider the C-9A Nightingale as inspiration.. used for medical evacuations and special missions, has the aft stairs and ex USAF military would have some experience.
C-9A Nightingale - 21 aeromedical evacuation aircraft based on the DC-9-32CF for U.S. Air Force delivered during 1968–69.
But it couldn't lower the aft stairs in flight. The 727 was the only one that could do that.
Is that for the pre 1970 C-9A Nightingale... Looking for info on that model and use.. has it ever taken off with stairs down during military ops?
In 1971, the 727 was the only American airliner that could lower its aft stairs in flight and that information was known to only a few people.
I do not have any information on the C-9, but McDonnel-Douglas apparently did not have to make any modifications to the DC-9 airliner frustrate hijackers.
Key words: IN FLIGHT. :)
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Anybody consider the C-9A Nightingale as inspiration.. used for medical evacuations and special missions, has the aft stairs and ex USAF military would have some experience.
C-9A Nightingale - 21 aeromedical evacuation aircraft based on the DC-9-32CF for U.S. Air Force delivered during 1968–69.
But it couldn't lower the aft stairs in flight. The 727 was the only one that could do that.
Is that for the pre 1970 C-9A Nightingale... Looking for info on that model and use.. has it ever taken off with stairs down during military ops?
In 1971, the 727 was the only American airliner that could lower its aft stairs in flight and that information was known to only a few people.
I do not have any information on the C-9, but McDonnel-Douglas apparently did not have to make any modifications to the DC-9 airliner frustrate hijackers.
Key words: IN FLIGHT. :)
One of the guys I am researching worked at McDonnell Douglas.
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Anybody consider the C-9A Nightingale as inspiration.. used for medical evacuations and special missions, has the aft stairs and ex USAF military would have some experience.
C-9A Nightingale - 21 aeromedical evacuation aircraft based on the DC-9-32CF for U.S. Air Force delivered during 1968–69.
But it couldn't lower the aft stairs in flight. The 727 was the only one that could do that.
Is that for the pre 1970 C-9A Nightingale... Looking for info on that model and use.. has it ever taken off with stairs down during military ops?
In 1971, the 727 was the only American airliner that could lower its aft stairs in flight and that information was known to only a few people.
I do not have any information on the C-9, but McDonnel-Douglas apparently did not have to make any modifications to the DC-9 airliner to frustrate hijackers.
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Anybody consider the C-9A Nightingale as inspiration.. used for medical evacuations and special missions, has the aft stairs and ex USAF military would have some experience.
C-9A Nightingale - 21 aeromedical evacuation aircraft based on the DC-9-32CF for U.S. Air Force delivered during 1968–69.
But it couldn't lower the aft stairs in flight. The 727 was the only one that could do that.
Is that for the pre 1970 C-9A Nightingale... Looking for info on that model and use.. has it ever taken off with stairs down during military ops?
In 1971, the 727 was the only American airliner that could lower its aft stairs in flight and that information was known to only a few people.
I do not have any information on the C-9, but McDonnel-Douglas apparently did not have to make any modifications to the DC-9 airliner frustrate hijackers.
I have read several accounts of the DC-9 having a Cooper Vane installed?? Why install them if the stairs couldn't opened in flight?
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cooper_vane
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Was it possible for a third party to listen to the plane/tower comms?
according to Tom Kaye ham operators were listening in and helped with timing issues...
Please elaborate...
A young woman named Marianne Lincoln says that she listened to Seattle Center's communication with 305 via her father's VHF radio inside his plane, parked on the family's runway at the Shady Acres Air Field in Spanaway, WA. She was 14 at the time of the skyjacking.
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I've checked my records on Sluggo, but no response as of the moment. Robert 99 posted a few years ago on Sluggo. Any update, R99?
Read reply #1440 and later ones above.
I was thinking of personal communications with Sluggo. It's clear he has little or no interest in public communications. I sent an email to Sluggo at the address you posted in 2013 and it hasn't bounced back. I know that Sluggo contacted me by email a few years ago 2014 (?) during the beginning of his absence and said he was okay.
More telling is that his website ahs not been updated in several years. Not even to correct or update with new information. That tells me that Sluggo is no longer under the spell of the Vortex.
See 377, it is possible to escape...
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Anybody consider the C-9A Nightingale as inspiration.. used for medical evacuations and special missions, has the aft stairs and ex USAF military would have some experience.
C-9A Nightingale - 21 aeromedical evacuation aircraft based on the DC-9-32CF for U.S. Air Force delivered during 1968–69.
But it couldn't lower the aft stairs in flight. The 727 was the only one that could do that.
Is that for the pre 1970 C-9A Nightingale... Looking for info on that model and use.. has it ever taken off with stairs down during military ops?
In 1971, the 727 was the only American airliner that could lower its aft stairs in flight and that information was known to only a few people.
I do not have any information on the C-9, but McDonnel-Douglas apparently did not have to make any modifications to the DC-9 airliner frustrate hijackers.
I have read several accounts of the DC-9 having a Cooper Vane installed?? Why install them if the stairs couldn't opened in flight?
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cooper_vane
Wikiwand certainly speaks authoritatively about the DC-9 having a Cooper vane, but I never heard of a DC-9 being outfitted with one. That's a cool pix of the CV, though. The COOPER exhibit at the WSHM had one on display that we could play with. The spring wasn't too strong. Pretty simple device.
One of the elements of the Cooper story that hasn't been discussed much is the impact of Norjak on airline safety. Specifically, I think it is important for us to have a better understanding of what regs and policies were implemented and when. If Norjak was a rogue operation to foster airline safety, how effective was it? That needs to be more fully researched.
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I've checked my records on Sluggo, but no response as of the moment. Robert 99 posted a few years ago on Sluggo. Any update, R99?
Read reply #1440 and later ones above.
I was thinking of personal communications with Sluggo. It's clear he has little or no interest in public communications. I sent an email to Sluggo at the address you posted in 2013 and it hasn't bounced back. I know that Sluggo contacted me by email a few years ago 2014 (?) during the beginning of his absence and said he was okay.
More telling is that his website ahs not been updated in several years. Not even to correct or update with new information. That tells me that Sluggo is no longer under the spell of the Vortex.
See 377, it is possible to escape...
Wayne (Sluggo) is selective about who he communicates with.
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Anybody consider the C-9A Nightingale as inspiration.. used for medical evacuations and special missions, has the aft stairs and ex USAF military would have some experience.
C-9A Nightingale - 21 aeromedical evacuation aircraft based on the DC-9-32CF for U.S. Air Force delivered during 1968–69.
But it couldn't lower the aft stairs in flight. The 727 was the only one that could do that.
Is that for the pre 1970 C-9A Nightingale... Looking for info on that model and use.. has it ever taken off with stairs down during military ops?
In 1971, the 727 was the only American airliner that could lower its aft stairs in flight and that information was known to only a few people.
I do not have any information on the C-9, but McDonnel-Douglas apparently did not have to make any modifications to the DC-9 airliner frustrate hijackers.
I have read several accounts of the DC-9 having a Cooper Vane installed?? Why install them if the stairs couldn't opened in flight?
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cooper_vane
Wikiwand certainly speaks authoritatively about the DC-9 having a Cooper vane, but I never heard of a DC-9 being outfitted with one. That's a cool pix of the CV, though. The COOPER exhibit at the WSHM had one on display that we could play with. The spring wasn't too strong. Pretty simple device.
One of the elements of the Cooper story that hasn't been discussed much is the impact of Norjak on airline safety. Specifically, I think it is important for us to have a better understanding of what regs and policies were implemented and when. If Norjak was a rogue operation to foster airline safety, how effective was it? That needs to be more fully researched.
Well, it certainly impacted the 727. But looking at all the skyjackings then (holy cow, some of them are odd - like the ones who forced an FA to knit their baby a hat on the way to Cuba!) it's kind of hard to say if one with no known fatalities and no exploded plane had more impact than events like 58 November. They'd certainly learned from Cooper to rig the parachutes with emergency locator devices, which is how they got LaPointe so fast.
I do note in this 1972 story about the threatened international pilots' strike that United was fined $1000 after McCoy for failing to comply with passenger screening regulations. Was NWO also fined for the Cooper incident, or did the screening regs come into place after Cooper? http://www.nytimes.com/1972/06/09/archives/pilots-may-strike-if-un-doesnt-act-on-hijacking-pilots-may-strike.html
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Cool link, Lynn, on the pilots' threat of a worldwide boycott due to hijackings. Wow. United got hit with a fine for allowing the McCoy skyjacking. I didn't know that.
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Cool link, Lynn, on the pilots' threat of a worldwide boycott due to hijackings. Wow. United got hit with a fine for allowing the McCoy skyjacking. I didn't know that.
This seems to be a more detailed timeline, thought it doesn't exactly cause-and-effect particular cases to changes in regs. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/12/travel/la-tr-airline-safety-timeline-20110612
I read a Wired article a while ago that mentioned airlines didn't want to screen during the Cooper era. They would only check a passenger with a wand if they were behaving suspiciously. Only 0.5 percent of passengers were screened.
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Cool link, Lynn, on the pilots' threat of a worldwide boycott due to hijackings. Wow. United got hit with a fine for allowing the McCoy skyjacking. I didn't know that.
This seems to be a more detailed timeline, thought it doesn't exactly cause-and-effect particular cases to changes in regs. http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/12/travel/la-tr-airline-safety-timeline-20110612
I read a Wired article a while ago that mentioned airlines didn't want to screen during the Cooper era. They would only check a passenger with a wand if they were behaving suspiciously. Only 0.5 percent of passengers were screened.
In the 1970 time frame, in order to be screened to board an airliner, you needed to have a real dark skin. I was never screened or saw a white person screened, but I did see black people screened routinely.
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I was escorted by two US Air Marshals from my gate to my plane in Miami when I tried to board a flight to the Bahamas and was carrying a spear gun in my hand. They took the spear gun and stowed it on the airplane, and FAs handed it to me when we landed in Nassau.
You saw African Americans board a flight in the 70s? I have no memory of seeing anything like that. The only folks without white skins that I saw were Puerto Ricans (non-blancos, as they say) heading home to San Juan from NYC.
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I was escorted by two US Air Marshals from my gate to my plane in Miami when I tried to board a flight to the Bahamas and was carrying a spear gun in my hand. They took the spear gun and stowed it on the airplane, and FAs handed it to me when we landed in Nassau.
You saw African Americans board a flight in the 70s? I have no memory of seeing anything like that. The only folks without white skins that I saw were Puerto Ricans (non-blancos, as they say) heading home to San Juan from NYC.
Yeah, that's a pretty white group getting off that plane in the Cronkite video. Someone else mentioned being sure Cooper must be Mexican/Latino because of that common element of the witness descriptions. No accent, though. It's also possible the guy just had a really deep tan. I'm 99.5% Irish/English and had never managed to tan in my life; at 22 I visited Thailand and burnt through clouds. Then my skin was so dark, only my eyes gave my race away. I'm not sure without some sort of other distinguishing factor, like an accent, you could be sure someone is "Latin". Used to teach ESL students from Mexico, Central and South America - their skin tones were a pretty mixed bag, and I certainly know Caucasians who don't look it. One kid in high school was so dark compared to his brother, his bro convinced the entire class he'd been adopted from Vietnam, but that we weren't to tell him we knew because it upset him. Someone got drunk on grad night and asked him if he missed Vietnam. The kid was a Newfie and had no idea what she was going on about. ;D
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Um, Lynn, I know what a Newfie is, but most people here don't. I suggest you explain.
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Um, Lynn, I know what a Newfie is, but most people here don't. I suggest you explain.
A Newfie is from Newfoundland (my homeland - I was born on the island and raised on the mainland region in Labrador). The vast majority are of pure or mixed Irish/UK descent and while our pallor varies, our accent is unmistakable, retaining some vocabulary and speech patterns from the old countries that stretch back hundreds of years. (Also, Polish jokes in Canada are Newfie jokes.) A Newfie is as far from a Vietnamese person as you can get without going to Mars.
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Um, Lynn, I know what a Newfie is, but most people here don't. I suggest you explain.
A Newfie is from Newfoundland (my homeland - I was born on the island and raised on the mainland region in Labrador). The vast majority are of pure or mixed Irish/UK descent and while our pallor varies, our accent is unmistakable, retaining some vocabulary and speech patterns from the old countries that stretch back hundreds of years. (Also, Polish jokes in Canada are Newfie jokes.) A Newfie is as far from a Vietnamese person as you can get without going to Mars.
Interesting. No Scandinavians there in Newfoundland? I just assumed there would be - but havent looked that haplotype up...
Ever been to L'Anse aux Meadows ?
(wiki) Human habitation in Newfoundland and Labrador can be traced back about 9000 years to the people of the Maritime Archaic Tradition.[1] They were gradually displaced by people of the Dorset Culture the L'nu, or Mi'kmaq and finally by the Innu and Inuit in Labrador and the Beothuks on the island.[2]
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Um, Lynn, I know what a Newfie is, but most people here don't. I suggest you explain.
A Newfie is from Newfoundland (my homeland - I was born on the island and raised on the mainland region in Labrador). The vast majority are of pure or mixed Irish/UK descent and while our pallor varies, our accent is unmistakable, retaining some vocabulary and speech patterns from the old countries that stretch back hundreds of years. (Also, Polish jokes in Canada are Newfie jokes.) A Newfie is as far from a Vietnamese person as you can get without going to Mars.
Interesting. No Scandinavians there in Newfoundland? I just assumed there would be - but havent looked that haplotype up...
Ever been to L'Anse aux Meadows ?
(wiki) Human habitation in Newfoundland and Labrador can be traced back about 9000 years to the people of the Maritime Archaic Tradition.[1] They were gradually displaced by people of the Dorset Culture the L'nu, or Mi'kmaq and finally by the Innu and Inuit in Labrador and the Beothuks on the island.[2]
The Beothuks are, sadly, an extinct tribe. The Mi'kmaq and Inu are still around, but are more coastal. Labrador has only had a highway across it for a very short time - until I was a teen, the only ways out were via plane or train, as there was no road connecting various parts of Labrador. Most of the settlement in the mining towns of Western Labrador, where I grew up, was Quebecois, Island Newfoundlander, Portuguese; the town itself was built by a mining company in the 60s. The Vikings did land at Newfoundland, but I don't think their settlements were permanent - at least, I never knew anyone Scandinavian. Newfoundland only joined Confederation in 1949 - before that, it had a short-lived experiment with self-government. My parents were born Newfoundlanders, but not Canadians.
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Um, Lynn, I know what a Newfie is, but most people here don't. I suggest you explain.
A Newfie is from Newfoundland (my homeland - I was born on the island and raised on the mainland region in Labrador). The vast majority are of pure or mixed Irish/UK descent and while our pallor varies, our accent is unmistakable, retaining some vocabulary and speech patterns from the old countries that stretch back hundreds of years. (Also, Polish jokes in Canada are Newfie jokes.) A Newfie is as far from a Vietnamese person as you can get without going to Mars.
Interesting. No Scandinavians there in Newfoundland? I just assumed there would be - but havent looked that haplotype up...
Ever been to L'Anse aux Meadows ?
(wiki) Human habitation in Newfoundland and Labrador can be traced back about 9000 years to the people of the Maritime Archaic Tradition.[1] They were gradually displaced by people of the Dorset Culture the L'nu, or Mi'kmaq and finally by the Innu and Inuit in Labrador and the Beothuks on the island.[2]
The Beothuks are, sadly, an extinct tribe. The Mi'kmaq and Inu are still around, but are more coastal. Labrador has only had a highway across it for a very short time - until I was a teen, the only ways out were via plane or train, as there was no road connecting various parts of Labrador. Most of the settlement in the mining towns of Western Labrador, where I grew up, was Quebecois, Island Newfoundlander, Portuguese; the town itself was built by a mining company in the 60s. The Vikings did land at Newfoundland, but I don't think their settlements were permanent - at least, I never knew anyone Scandinavian. Newfoundland only joined Confederation in 1949 - before that, it had a short-lived experiment with self-government. My parents were born Newfoundlanders, but not Canadians.
Thanks Lynn - thats interesting history.
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Anybody consider the C-9A Nightingale as inspiration.. used for medical evacuations and special missions, has the aft stairs and ex USAF military would have some experience.
C-9A Nightingale - 21 aeromedical evacuation aircraft based on the DC-9-32CF for U.S. Air Force delivered during 1968–69.
But it couldn't lower the aft stairs in flight. The 727 was the only one that could do that.
Is that for the pre 1970 C-9A Nightingale... Looking for info on that model and use.. has it ever taken off with stairs down during military ops?
In 1971, the 727 was the only American airliner that could lower its aft stairs in flight and that information was known to only a few people.
I do not have any information on the C-9, but McDonnel-Douglas apparently did not have to make any modifications to the DC-9 airliner frustrate hijackers.
I have read several accounts of the DC-9 having a Cooper Vane installed?? Why install them if the stairs couldn't opened in flight?
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cooper_vane
Wikiwand certainly speaks authoritatively about the DC-9 having a Cooper vane, but I never heard of a DC-9 being outfitted with one. That's a cool pix of the CV, though. The COOPER exhibit at the WSHM had one on display that we could play with. The spring wasn't too strong. Pretty simple device.
One of the elements of the Cooper story that hasn't been discussed much is the impact of Norjak on airline safety. Specifically, I think it is important for us to have a better understanding of what regs and policies were implemented and when. If Norjak was a rogue operation to foster airline safety, how effective was it? That needs to be more fully researched.
The ex SAS DC 9-21 I jumped from in 2006 at WFFC DID have a Cooper Vane installed, for sure. Since we had removed the stairs for a fast mass exit the vane didn't serve its intended function, but it was there. I took a good look at it when inspecting the plane on the ground.
377
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Anybody consider the C-9A Nightingale as inspiration.. used for medical evacuations and special missions, has the aft stairs and ex USAF military would have some experience.
C-9A Nightingale - 21 aeromedical evacuation aircraft based on the DC-9-32CF for U.S. Air Force delivered during 1968–69.
But it couldn't lower the aft stairs in flight. The 727 was the only one that could do that.
Is that for the pre 1970 C-9A Nightingale... Looking for info on that model and use.. has it ever taken off with stairs down during military ops?
In 1971, the 727 was the only American airliner that could lower its aft stairs in flight and that information was known to only a few people.
I do not have any information on the C-9, but McDonnel-Douglas apparently did not have to make any modifications to the DC-9 airliner frustrate hijackers.
I have read several accounts of the DC-9 having a Cooper Vane installed?? Why install them if the stairs couldn't opened in flight?
http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Cooper_vane
Wikiwand certainly speaks authoritatively about the DC-9 having a Cooper vane, but I never heard of a DC-9 being outfitted with one. That's a cool pix of the CV, though. The COOPER exhibit at the WSHM had one on display that we could play with. The spring wasn't too strong. Pretty simple device.
One of the elements of the Cooper story that hasn't been discussed much is the impact of Norjak on airline safety. Specifically, I think it is important for us to have a better understanding of what regs and policies were implemented and when. If Norjak was a rogue operation to foster airline safety, how effective was it? That needs to be more fully researched.
The ex SAS DC 9-21 I jumped from in 2006 at WFFC DID have a Cooper Vane installed, for sure. Since we had removed the stairs for a fast mass exit the vane didn't serve its intended function, but it was there. I took a good look at it when inspecting the plane on the ground.
377
That suggests that the DC-9 Airstair could have been opened inflight.. and the "idea" may not have been exclusive to the 727.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFinalRule.nsf/0/7b9e871dbcb13669862568d4006cd48f!OpenDocument#_Section6
In consideration of the foregoing, and for the reasons given in notice 72-15, Parts 25 and 121 of the Federal Aviation Regulations are amended, effective December 31, 1972, as follows:
1. By adding a new paragraph (j) to Sec. 25.809 to read as follows:
Sec. 25.809 Emergency exit arrangement.
* * * * *
(j) When required by the operating rules for any large passenger-carrying turbojet-powered airplane, each ventral exit and tailcone exit must be-
(1) Designed and constructed so that it cannot be opened during flight; and
(2) Marked with a placard readable from a distance of 30 inches and installed at a conspicuous location near the means of opening the exit, stating that the exit has been designed and constructed so that it cannot be opened during flight.
2. By adding a new paragraph (k) to Sec. 121.310 to read as follows:
Sec. 121.310 Additional emergency equipment.
* * * * *
(k) After August 28, 1973, on each large passenger-carrying turbojet-powered airplane, each ventral exit and tailcone exit must be-
(1) Designed and constructed so that it cannot be opened during flight; and
(2) Marked with a placard readable from a distance of 30 inches and installed at a conspicuous location near the means of opening the exit, stating that the exit has been designed and constructed so that it cannot be opened during flight.
(Secs. 313(a), 601, 603, 604, and 605 of the Federal Aviation Act of 1958, 49 U.S.C. 1354(a), 1421, 1423, 1424, and 1425. Sec. 6(c) of the Department of Transportation Act; 49 U.S.C. 1655(c)).
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What happened to the Tina Bar Money thread?
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Some thread was locked down by Shutter for a while due to squabbling, might have been that one.
377
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Some thread was locked down by Shutter for a while due to squabbling, might have been that one.
377
all is under control ... :congrats:
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I will be opening the T-bar thread soon...a reply will follow...I just got home and have some fires to put out first from work prior to dealing with the forum...
Shutter
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Good morning,
i am new to posting on this Forum, although I've been following the Norjack case for a few years now. I am in the midst of reading Bruce Smith's book and I'm very much enjoying it. I have one burning question . . . What does one do with ransom money? Surely, Dan Cooper was not stupid. He must have known the FBI would be tracking the serial numbers on the bills. Where could one spend or launder money without getting caught? A casino? A foreign country? I am naive in these matters. Because the bulk of the money was never found, does this necessarily mean that the money was not spent?
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I can't say what his intentions were, but I think it's probably a moot point. I think that the money find at TB is probably a good indication that Cooper, if he even survived, did not get away with the cash. This is just my opinion, of course.
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Good morning,
i am new to posting on this Forum, although I've been following the Norjack case for a few years now. I am in the midst of reading Bruce Smith's book and I'm very much enjoying it. I have one burning question . . . What does one do with ransom money? Surely, Dan Cooper was not stupid. He must have known the FBI would be tracking the serial numbers on the bills. Where could one spend or launder money without getting caught? A casino? A foreign country? I am naive in these matters. Because the bulk of the money was never found, does this necessarily mean that the money was not spent?
Thanks for the kudos, Sammy. If I had 200,000K and had just stolen an airplane that I didn't want to go to jail for, I'd consider the following:
1. Make a political contribution to ensure that elected officials would handcuff the FBI.
2. Initiate a sting operation on J. Edgar Hoover and get pix of him having illegal sex.
3. Go to the Cayman Islands and create a bank that specializes in Black Market financing.
4. Buy a lot of drugs in Thailand through my Air America contacts, (and the USG, of course) and use the drug trade to launder my money.
5. Go to Rome and set up shop in the Vatican Bank, paying off cardinals as I go.
6. Become a real estate developer.
7. Partner-up with a cash-strapped casino owner in Atlantic City
8. Write a book at DB Cooper and the FBI! - Nah, just kidding.
Welcome aboard, Jen Samm-
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FLYJACK and unsurelock,
At first glance the termite theory is palatable.... But they would not chew so uniformly around the four edges.. Instead you'd see one are annihilated... The fact that it is uniform, to me, argues against termites.
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FLYJACK and unsurelock,
At first glance the termite theory is palatable.... But they would not chew so uniformly around the four edges.. Instead you'd see one are annihilated... The fact that it is uniform, to me, argues against termites.
Yes, I thought that as well, however the bills aren't all uniform..
these look like termite damage..
https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=0+790+231&Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles&Ntt=%22d+b+cooper%22
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If the photo below was available 20 years ago I could easily say it shows obvious smoke damage, no?
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FLYJACK and unsurelock,
At first glance the termite theory is palatable.... But they would not chew so uniformly around the four edges.. Instead you'd see one are annihilated... The fact that it is uniform, to me, argues against termites.
Yes, I thought that as well, however the bills aren't all uniform..
these look like termite damage..
https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=0+790+231&Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles&Ntt=%22d+b+cooper%22
To my knowledge nobody has ever mentioned termites before, with respect to the Cooper bills at Tena Bar. Termites are not mentioned in the Palmer report. In fact when asked 'what accounts for the surprisingly good condition of the money' Palmer replied: 'The upper layer(s) of beach sand are sterile.' When pressed about how long the money had been at T_Bar Palmer said, ' at least a year, perhaps longer', and when pressed further he finally said, 'Maybe a long time'. No FBI report I know of mentions termites - the Ingrams didnt mention termites - and agents who pefformed the excavation didnt mention termites but I will make a few calls tomorrow about that.
You might want to read this website about termite populations in Clark County, and Portland vs Vancouver. http://www.newleafpestcontrol.com/2013/06/20/why-termites-are-not-such-a-big-deal-and-why-they-are/
Termites are voracious feeders, especially of paper. Whatever length of time the money was at Tina Bar how long would it take termites to consume the Ingram bundles, and reduce it to sawdust. I suspect it wouldnt take long. Weeks? Days? And yet the mid portions of these bills survived. Termites can destroy a library shelf of books in a matter of days/weeks. Why would any of these thin bundles be left once termites started feeding on them?
So one question to Fkyjack is: Termites ate the bills where? At Tina Bar or someplace else, and then the money was transported from some termite site to Tina Bar .... as part of some plant theory ?
Here are a couple of photos to try and put this in some perspective.
ps: Methane. Methane is a digestive byproduct of termites. Methane detectors are used in my rural State to find termites at buildings. There is no FBI Lab report that I know of that reports methane in the money. Tom also did an elemental survey of his bills. Im not sure if he tested for methane or not but methane is not in his elemental report - but Im not sure it would still be detectable all these years later? I want to talk to several guys tomorrow who were at the excavation and see if they can shed any light on this ...
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I brought up termites years ago on the DZ..one thing I noticed with termites is how they attack..we have them down here. pesky little bastards with no remorse. they tend to bore tunnels, and leave large voids like you see in the photo's above. I don't think it would take long at all to destroy the money completely as Georger mentioned.
what are the odds of getting termites in that area, are they high. does Washington have a termite swarming season like Florida?
.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsZqnkBfr48
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I was just throwing out the termite theory for discussion...
Kaye analyzed the holes to determine if the edges were sharp from insects or frayed from bacteria. He found they were frayed and discounted insects. This is correct for recent insect activity but does not account for old insect activity. Old insect damage would enable bacteria to fray the edges...
The problem with TBAR money is: the rubber bands were intact (brittle) around the packages and the money degraded but together in order. One theory often thrown around is that the money was deposited later but was in an environment that somehow protected the rubber bands. Some bills appear consistent with termite damage while others appear consistent with abrasion and bacteria..
Termite theory fits the rubber band dilemma.
Hypothetical: the hijacker or accomplice hides the money in a house/garage/shed, a structure that they have control of. Some of the money in a bundle (or bundles) is partially degraded by termites. Portland area has 3 species and apparently they love the taste of paper currency. The rubber bands would have remained intact. The now damaged bundle(s) would have become useless and a liability, so discarded a few years before discovery on TBAR. In those years abrasion/water action and bacteria further degraded the bundle dispersing the chards and fraying the edges.
(TERMITES DO NOT LIKE SAND)
termite damage
(http://termirepel.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/termitesmoney.jpg)
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Ok... But termites don't all go together and all line up on the edges, and coordinate their munching at the same time. And I'm not trying to be a unconscionable butthole by saying that, just trying to make a point. Instead, termites would have struck in much more irregular pattern, and would have finished them off in ten years. Instead, this looks more like aneorobic edge deterioration from the freeze/thaw cycle of the saturated edges while submersed in sand, than termites. But I like your style and suggestion.
Aside. REVEAL YOUR SUSPECT ;D
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Ok... But termites don't all go together and all line up on the edges, and coordinate their munching at the same time. And I'm not trying to be a unconscionable butthole by saying that, just trying to make a point. Instead, termites would have struck in much more irregular pattern, and would have finished them off in ten years. Instead, this looks more like aneorobic edge deterioration from the freeze/thaw cycle of the saturated edges while submersed in sand, than termites. But I like your style and suggestion.
Aside. REVEAL YOUR SUSPECT ;D
look at these Cooper bills... irregular patterns.. not termite vs anaerobic/abrasion/water.. but possibly "both"
https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=0+790+231&Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles&Ntt=%22d+b+cooper%22
Re suspect: There is a clue in the Seattle "Dan Cooper" comic...
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Ok... But termites don't all go together and all line up on the edges, and coordinate their munching at the same time. And I'm not trying to be a unconscionable butthole by saying that, just trying to make a point. Instead, termites would have struck in much more irregular pattern, and would have finished them off in ten years. Instead, this looks more like aneorobic edge deterioration from the freeze/thaw cycle of the saturated edges while submersed in sand, than termites. But I like your style and suggestion.
Aside. REVEAL YOUR SUSPECT ;D
look at these Cooper bills... irregular patterns.. not termite vs anaerobic/abrasion/water.. but possibly "both"
https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=0+790+231&Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles&Ntt=%22d+b+cooper%22
Re suspect: There is a clue in the Seattle "Dan Cooper" comic...
Several things: I have no feelings about termites, one way or the other. It matters if its one vs a whole colony of termites. A single termite 'boroughs'. Eats a hole and heads forward eating as it goes leaving wood/paper untouched along the sides. A whole colony eats the whole thing belching methane along the way - thank you Mam, whats for desert! In cold weather their feeding slows and they tend semi-hibernate. In warm weather its full steam ahead - those bundles would hardly last a week. Farmers fear termites in this State. They can reduce the support structure of a valuable wood barn to pulp in several seasons. Thats why the old timers built their large barns of the best hardwoods they could find - walnut, oak, etc. We spend millions on termite mitigation each year! They enter from the ground and they usually travel in colonies like ants, they build nests like ants!
They eat in 3 dimensions. They tunnel as they eat. Look at those book damage photos. Termites are large insects infinitely larger than bacteria. Plus there is normal atomic fracturing of that money - lots of pieces broken along atomic lines from the main bodies of bills. The money was breaking down atomically - that takes time and is temperature dependent. Freeze and thaw cycles. Seasons. Years?
If termites, there would 100% be genetic evidence of termites in the money. The evidence might still be on the untreated bills today. Iowa State Extension might do testing for free!
Let me try and get a few guys that were at the excavation and see what they say ..
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Ok. I have talked to three people who were at the TBar excavation. Briefly, ... no termites seen or found at Tina Bar - termites were discussed but Palmer said no termites present and not involved in money condition or at money find location - termites do not live in sand but in mud - Lab could not find any termite involvement with the money - Ingrams never encountered any termites at TBar or at home when they separated the bills into groups - paper currency is treated and would not attract termites (might even deter) termites - termites are rather particular in what they eat (prefer wood with high sugar content, treated paper money does not satisfy that condition).
One agent owned 22 buildings in Portland area. Had a licensed pest control person in his company. Only ran across termites once in 20+ years in Portland area. On Vancouver side termites virtually non-existent. He says Palmer was asked about termites and Palmer replied termites not at this location, dont live in sand, not involved with the Cooper money. He says the big issue at the time was whether the money really was a recent arrival or had weathered out and been there for years. He says they never were able to resolve this, but no evidence of termites at all. Says we didnt encounter termites during the whole excavation.
more later ... ?
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Ok. I have talked to three people who were at the TBar excavation. Briefly, ... no termites seen or found at Tina Bar - termites were discussed but Palmer said no termites present and not involved in money condition or at money find location - termites do not live in sand but in mud - Lab could not find any termite involvement with the money - Ingrams never encountered any termites at TBar or at home when they separated the bills into groups - paper currency is treated and would not attract termites (might even deter) termites - termites are rather particular in what they eat (prefer wood with high sugar content, treated paper money does not satisfy that condition).
One agent owned 22 buildings in Portland area. Had a licensed pest control person in his company. Only ran across termites once in 20+ years in Portland area. On Vancouver side termites virtually non-existent. He says Palmer was asked about termites and Palmer replied termites not at this location, dont live in sand, not involved with the Cooper money. He says the big issue at the time was whether the money really was a recent arrival or had weathered out and been there for years. He says they never were able to resolve this, but no evidence of termites at all. Says we didnt encounter termites during the whole excavation.
more later ... ?
Agree, the termite damage would have had to occur before the bundle arrived on TBAR.
Disagree, paper currency is candy for termites. I have a video interview with a US "Treasury" dept spokesperson for damaged/mutilated currency explaining/demonstrating termite damage to bills. That video is only available to Canadian (ip's).
video interview link.. works in Canada, maybe not from US unless using proxy like Tor
http://www.cbc.ca/news/damage-control-what-to-do-with-mangled-money-1.920743
The Western Subterranean Termites are one of the the most destructive species and occur in the Willamette Valley and Eastern Or. They are small 1/8"..
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&ved=0ahUKEwji4JaMvtjYAhVI72MKHY3BB6A4ChAWCDwwAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fir.library.oregonstate.edu%2Fdownloads%2F5999n3588&usg=AOvVaw39GWBytSOpxqLsQmvyB7ka
http://www.termite.com/termites/western-subterranean-termite.html
Willamette valley..
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Small-Oregon-Map.png)
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Ok. I have talked to three people who were at the TBar excavation. Briefly, ... no termites seen or found at Tina Bar - termites were discussed but Palmer said no termites present and not involved in money condition or at money find location - termites do not live in sand but in mud - Lab could not find any termite involvement with the money - Ingrams never encountered any termites at TBar or at home when they separated the bills into groups - paper currency is treated and would not attract termites (might even deter) termites - termites are rather particular in what they eat (prefer wood with high sugar content, treated paper money does not satisfy that condition).
One agent owned 22 buildings in Portland area. Had a licensed pest control person in his company. Only ran across termites once in 20+ years in Portland area. On Vancouver side termites virtually non-existent. He says Palmer was asked about termites and Palmer replied termites not at this location, dont live in sand, not involved with the Cooper money. He says the big issue at the time was whether the money really was a recent arrival or had weathered out and been there for years. He says they never were able to resolve this, but no evidence of termites at all. Says we didnt encounter termites during the whole excavation.
more later ... ?
Agree, the termite damage would have had to occur before the bundle arrived on TBAR.
Disagree, paper currency is candy for termites. I have a video interview with a US "Treasury" dept spokesperson for damaged/mutilated currency explaining/demonstrating termite damage to bills. That video is only available to Canadian (ip's).
video interview link.. works in Canada, maybe not from US unless using proxy like Tor
http://www.cbc.ca/news/damage-control-what-to-do-with-mangled-money-1.920743
The Western Subterranean Termites are one of the the most destructive species and occur in the Willamette Valley and Eastern Or. They are small 1/8"..
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&ved=0ahUKEwji4JaMvtjYAhVI72MKHY3BB6A4ChAWCDwwAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fir.library.oregonstate.edu%2Fdownloads%2F5999n3588&usg=AOvVaw39GWBytSOpxqLsQmvyB7ka
http://www.termite.com/termites/western-subterranean-termite.html
Willamette valley..
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Small-Oregon-Map.png)
I tend to agree with you - currency might be 'candy' to termites! I thought the agent's statement was a little ... global? There is nothing toxic to termites in paper currency. They might love the Ti dioxide! Termites at T-Bar specifically? I dont know. Pest control people would have a good idea. But I am firm that there would be genetic evidence left behind. I doubt there was any dna or serology work done on the money.
This seems to go right back to what Shutter said - nothing definite about anything.
So, what is your plant theory and how do termites play into that etc ... vis Tina Bar Cooper money? I am assuming this is what you're trying to establish while taking the long way home? ;)
I mean if termites are involved then what species, and location(s) of that species. The same for any other 'bug' (or pollen or diatoms etc) associated with the bills. Tom was mindful of this.
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Ok. I have talked to three people who were at the TBar excavation. Briefly, ... no termites seen or found at Tina Bar - termites were discussed but Palmer said no termites present and not involved in money condition or at money find location - termites do not live in sand but in mud - Lab could not find any termite involvement with the money - Ingrams never encountered any termites at TBar or at home when they separated the bills into groups - paper currency is treated and would not attract termites (might even deter) termites - termites are rather particular in what they eat (prefer wood with high sugar content, treated paper money does not satisfy that condition).
One agent owned 22 buildings in Portland area. Had a licensed pest control person in his company. Only ran across termites once in 20+ years in Portland area. On Vancouver side termites virtually non-existent. He says Palmer was asked about termites and Palmer replied termites not at this location, dont live in sand, not involved with the Cooper money. He says the big issue at the time was whether the money really was a recent arrival or had weathered out and been there for years. He says they never were able to resolve this, but no evidence of termites at all. Says we didnt encounter termites during the whole excavation.
more later ... ?
Agree, the termite damage would have had to occur before the bundle arrived on TBAR.
Disagree, paper currency is candy for termites. I have a video interview with a US "Treasury" dept spokesperson for damaged/mutilated currency explaining/demonstrating termite damage to bills. That video is only available to Canadian (ip's).
video interview link.. works in Canada, maybe not from US unless using proxy like Tor
http://www.cbc.ca/news/damage-control-what-to-do-with-mangled-money-1.920743
The Western Subterranean Termites are one of the the most destructive species and occur in the Willamette Valley and Eastern Or. They are small 1/8"..
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&ved=0ahUKEwji4JaMvtjYAhVI72MKHY3BB6A4ChAWCDwwAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fir.library.oregonstate.edu%2Fdownloads%2F5999n3588&usg=AOvVaw39GWBytSOpxqLsQmvyB7ka
http://www.termite.com/termites/western-subterranean-termite.html
Willamette valley..
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Small-Oregon-Map.png)
I tend to agree with you - currency might be 'candy' to termites! I thought the agent's statement was a little ... global? There is nothing toxic to termites in paper currency. They might love the Ti dioxide! Termites at T-Bar specifically? I dont know. Pest control people would have a good idea. But I am firm that there would be genetic evidence left behind. I doubt there was any dna or serology work done on the money.
This seems to go right back to what Shutter said - nothing definite about anything.
So, what is your plant theory and how do termites play into that etc ... vis Tina Bar Cooper money? I am assuming this is what you're trying to establish while taking the long way home? ;)
Not a plant theory, just a possible explanation for a delayed discarded/deposit on TBAR..
The tie environment "suspect" I am researching shows a residence in the late 1970's just 50 yards from the river upstream of TBAR in the Willamette area. I had considered that he may have thrown a bundle(s) in the river but why? Only if was damaged/mutilated.... and rendered useless, then I saw that "mutilated" bill video and the termite damage looked exactly like some of those bills.
IMO, the bundle landed on TBAR years after the hijacking, I am just trying to theorize where it could have been and why...
Home inspector finds termites The Dalles Or.. wood from a garage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhmKlpbJRUU
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Ok. I have talked to three people who were at the TBar excavation. Briefly, ... no termites seen or found at Tina Bar - termites were discussed but Palmer said no termites present and not involved in money condition or at money find location - termites do not live in sand but in mud - Lab could not find any termite involvement with the money - Ingrams never encountered any termites at TBar or at home when they separated the bills into groups - paper currency is treated and would not attract termites (might even deter) termites - termites are rather particular in what they eat (prefer wood with high sugar content, treated paper money does not satisfy that condition).
One agent owned 22 buildings in Portland area. Had a licensed pest control person in his company. Only ran across termites once in 20+ years in Portland area. On Vancouver side termites virtually non-existent. He says Palmer was asked about termites and Palmer replied termites not at this location, dont live in sand, not involved with the Cooper money. He says the big issue at the time was whether the money really was a recent arrival or had weathered out and been there for years. He says they never were able to resolve this, but no evidence of termites at all. Says we didnt encounter termites during the whole excavation.
more later ... ?
Agree, the termite damage would have had to occur before the bundle arrived on TBAR.
Disagree, paper currency is candy for termites. I have a video interview with a US "Treasury" dept spokesperson for damaged/mutilated currency explaining/demonstrating termite damage to bills. That video is only available to Canadian (ip's).
video interview link.. works in Canada, maybe not from US unless using proxy like Tor
http://www.cbc.ca/news/damage-control-what-to-do-with-mangled-money-1.920743
The Western Subterranean Termites are one of the the most destructive species and occur in the Willamette Valley and Eastern Or. They are small 1/8"..
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&ved=0ahUKEwji4JaMvtjYAhVI72MKHY3BB6A4ChAWCDwwAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fir.library.oregonstate.edu%2Fdownloads%2F5999n3588&usg=AOvVaw39GWBytSOpxqLsQmvyB7ka
http://www.termite.com/termites/western-subterranean-termite.html
Willamette valley..
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Small-Oregon-Map.png)
I tend to agree with you - currency might be 'candy' to termites! I thought the agent's statement was a little ... global? There is nothing toxic to termites in paper currency. They might love the Ti dioxide! Termites at T-Bar specifically? I dont know. Pest control people would have a good idea. But I am firm that there would be genetic evidence left behind. I doubt there was any dna or serology work done on the money.
This seems to go right back to what Shutter said - nothing definite about anything.
So, what is your plant theory and how do termites play into that etc ... vis Tina Bar Cooper money? I am assuming this is what you're trying to establish while taking the long way home? ;)
Not a plant theory, just a possible explanation for a delayed discarded/deposit on TBAR..
The tie environment "suspect" I am researching shows a residence in the late 1970's just 50 yards from the river upstream of TBAR in the Willamette area. I had considered that he may have thrown a bundle(s) in the river but why? Only if was damaged/mutilated.... and rendered useless, then I saw that "mutilated" bill video and the termite damage looked exactly like some of those bills.
IMO, the bundle landed on TBAR years after the hijacking, I am just trying to theorize where it could have been and why...
Home inspector finds termites The Dalles Or.. wood from a garage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhmKlpbJRUU
Flyjack,
There is no indication that a "residence" was ever 50 yards upstream (that's 150 feet to the south) of the Tina Bar gate. That would not even be all the way to the Fazio sand operation.
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Ok. I have talked to three people who were at the TBar excavation. Briefly, ... no termites seen or found at Tina Bar - termites were discussed but Palmer said no termites present and not involved in money condition or at money find location - termites do not live in sand but in mud - Lab could not find any termite involvement with the money - Ingrams never encountered any termites at TBar or at home when they separated the bills into groups - paper currency is treated and would not attract termites (might even deter) termites - termites are rather particular in what they eat (prefer wood with high sugar content, treated paper money does not satisfy that condition).
One agent owned 22 buildings in Portland area. Had a licensed pest control person in his company. Only ran across termites once in 20+ years in Portland area. On Vancouver side termites virtually non-existent. He says Palmer was asked about termites and Palmer replied termites not at this location, dont live in sand, not involved with the Cooper money. He says the big issue at the time was whether the money really was a recent arrival or had weathered out and been there for years. He says they never were able to resolve this, but no evidence of termites at all. Says we didnt encounter termites during the whole excavation.
more later ... ?
Agree, the termite damage would have had to occur before the bundle arrived on TBAR.
Disagree, paper currency is candy for termites. I have a video interview with a US "Treasury" dept spokesperson for damaged/mutilated currency explaining/demonstrating termite damage to bills. That video is only available to Canadian (ip's).
video interview link.. works in Canada, maybe not from US unless using proxy like Tor
http://www.cbc.ca/news/damage-control-what-to-do-with-mangled-money-1.920743
The Western Subterranean Termites are one of the the most destructive species and occur in the Willamette Valley and Eastern Or. They are small 1/8"..
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=14&ved=0ahUKEwji4JaMvtjYAhVI72MKHY3BB6A4ChAWCDwwAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fir.library.oregonstate.edu%2Fdownloads%2F5999n3588&usg=AOvVaw39GWBytSOpxqLsQmvyB7ka
http://www.termite.com/termites/western-subterranean-termite.html
Willamette valley..
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9a/Small-Oregon-Map.png)
I tend to agree with you - currency might be 'candy' to termites! I thought the agent's statement was a little ... global? There is nothing toxic to termites in paper currency. They might love the Ti dioxide! Termites at T-Bar specifically? I dont know. Pest control people would have a good idea. But I am firm that there would be genetic evidence left behind. I doubt there was any dna or serology work done on the money.
This seems to go right back to what Shutter said - nothing definite about anything.
So, what is your plant theory and how do termites play into that etc ... vis Tina Bar Cooper money? I am assuming this is what you're trying to establish while taking the long way home? ;)
Not a plant theory, just a possible explanation for a delayed discarded/deposit on TBAR..
The tie environment "suspect" I am researching shows a residence in the late 1970's just 50 yards from the river upstream of TBAR in the Willamette area. I had considered that he may have thrown a bundle(s) in the river but why? Only if was damaged/mutilated.... and rendered useless, then I saw that "mutilated" bill video and the termite damage looked exactly like some of those bills.
IMO, the bundle landed on TBAR years after the hijacking, I am just trying to theorize where it could have been and why...
Home inspector finds termites The Dalles Or.. wood from a garage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhmKlpbJRUU
Flyjack,
There is no indication that a "residence" was ever 50 yards upstream (that's 150 feet to the south) of the Tina Bar gate. That would not even be all the way to the Fazio sand operation.
Robert99,
Sorry for the confusion, I meant a residence 50 yards from the river (miles) upstream of TBAR (Willamette area), not a residence 50 yards from TBAR.
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Flyjack, do me a favor and post photo's vs HTML code...it takes up a lot of bandwidth...
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termites do not live in sand
This is true... and the primary reason is that they need water and water drains far too fast through sand.... Termites are found in soil that has at least some semblance of water retention.
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Flyjack, do me a favor and post photo's vs HTML code...it takes up a lot of bandwidth...
Shutter, should you move all of this money discussion to the Money thread?
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termites do not live in sand
This is true... and the primary reason is that they need water and water drains far too fast through sand.... Termites are found in soil that has at least some semblance of water retention.
I dont know - Im getting a little confused about termites. During one call today an agent remarked to me: I used to live in AZ ... termites are everywhere in Arizona! Its news to me ... Isnt AZ mostly sand and rock?
What I am sure of is, if termite are an important aspect f this case, it can still be looked into. Its a bit late but a try could be made. Tom?
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termites do not live in sand
This is true... and the primary reason is that they need water and water drains far too fast through sand.... Termites are found in soil that has at least some semblance of water retention.
I dont know - Im getting a little confused about termites. During one call today an agent remarked to me: I used to live in AZ ... termites are everywhere in Arizona! Its news to me ... Isnt AZ mostly sand and rock?
Sand and rock with a few trees in the mountains. I am a desert lover myself preferring the sunshine, heat, and absence of water.
But a couple of decades ago, I was buying a house a few miles from the Colorado River in the northwest part of the state and had to have a state mandated termite inspection as part of the transaction. The termite inspector told me that he had never seen termites in that area, but he was always happy to make such inspections for his usual fee. ::)
In fact, I have had several real estate transactions and termite inspections in Arizona and haven't seen a termite in my four decades here.
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termites do not live in sand
This is true... and the primary reason is that they need water and water drains far too fast through sand.... Termites are found in soil that has at least some semblance of water retention.
I dont know - Im getting a little confused about termites. During one call today an agent remarked to me: I used to live in AZ ... termites are everywhere in Arizona! Its news to me ... Isnt AZ mostly sand and rock?
Sand and rock with a few trees in the mountains. I am a desert lover myself preferring the sunshine, heat, and absence of water.
But a couple of decades ago, I was buying a house a few miles from the Colorado River in the northwest part of the state and had to have a state mandated termite inspection as part of the transaction. The termite inspector told me that he had never seen termites in that area, but he was always happy to make such inspections for his usual fee. ::)
In fact, I have had several real estate transactions and termite inspections in Arizona and haven't seen a termite in my four decades here.
Here we go. More conflicting info but I dont doubt your word. I will ask guys in our AZ observatory system what they know. I do know of expeditions that were stopped until rattlesnakes could be cleared out! Until then here's this .... if termites were in an area wouldnt there be eggs there too?
I just dont see this eating pattern in Cooper money whereas Flyjack does.
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Still thinking about this. Even if the money was fed on by termites, I dont see how that proves a plant. The money could have been exposed to termites say on Caterpillar Island, or in the Shillapoo (forest), or somewhere along R99's wash-in route, or even on Tena Bar itself and still have arrived at its found location by natural means. Maybe I'm missing something.
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Still thinking about this. Even if the money was fed on by termites, I dont see how that proves a plant. The money could have been exposed to termites say on Caterpillar Island, or in the Shillapoo (forest), or somewhere along R99's wash-in route, or even on Tena Bar itself and still have arrived at its found location by natural means. Maybe I'm missing something.
Agree, I don't see a plant..
The termites may show an initial environment before TBAR.
The video I have showing termite damage to currency looks exactly like some of these bills..
https://www.ha.com/c/search-results.zx?N=0+790+231&Nty=1&Ntk=SI_Titles&Ntt=%22d+b+cooper%22
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Still thinking about this. Even if the money was fed on by termites, I dont see how that proves a plant. The money could have been exposed to termites say on Caterpillar Island, or in the Shillapoo (forest), or somewhere along R99's wash-in route, or even on Tena Bar itself and still have arrived at its found location by natural means. Maybe I'm missing something.
In my mind the only way that TERMITES and PLANT coexist, is if the unsub quickly caught them eating and halted it, for paper is as good as tissue to termites, and it'd have been consumed in short order. We aren't talking solid wood here, what we are used to associating it with....
But there are a few problems... to acheive that munch uniformity, then they'd have have to been wet.... so maybe buried in ground and were rainwater saturated. If they were, say, stored in a dry place, we'd see tunneling, and no uniformity, just like the book photo above.
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Good morning,
I have a quick question that I'm hoping someone could help me with. I've tried finding the answer via the Search button, but not success. I read somewhere that DB took medication on the flight. Do we know that for certain? And if so, do we know what kind of medication he took? Prescription? OTC aspirin?
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They don't know if Cooper took any meds but this devolved because upon testing the tie particles they contained substances consistent with those used for pill coatings, so they theorized this.
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I thought it was mentioned somewhere that Cooper said that he had something the pilots could take to stay alert / awake? Can't remember who said this. Gray perhaps in his book?
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I thought it was mentioned somewhere that Cooper said that he had something the pilots could take to stay alert / awake? Can't remember who said this. Gray perhaps in his book?
I don't remember where I read it, but Cooper reportedly did tell at least Tina that he had some pills that could help the pilots stay awake if they became tired or sleepy. This would presumably be something along the line of the pills that some truck drivers reportedly take on long trips ("speed"?).
For the record, USAF pilots also are issued and use some type of pills to help them stay awake and alert on extremely long flights (say 16+ hour flights).
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Cooper brought Benzedrine onboard to keep the pilots awake. Described in Gray's SKYJACK, and the 302s floating around.
No one knows if or what medications Cooper took, as far as I know. The CS have speculated that it could have been blood pressure medication because that is the most widely prescribed med in the world, and the coatings of those pills often have a powdery mix of Lycopodium, which was found on the tie.
I discuss this in my book, and also the related issue of amphetamines in combat and for flying. The use of amphetamines and methamphetamine was first widely used by Japanese pilots in WW II, and copied by all Allied forces as well. But their use in Vietnam by US Forces exceeded the combined prior worldwide usage.
The essential question still remains: did Cooper use drugs or any other enhancements? Amphetamines and other pharmaceuticals could have helped him stay warm, stay awake and alert, reduce hunger, reduce pain from injury, etc. It is rarely talked about, nor investigated. - most probably because most people think of DB Cooper as a guy like them or someone they know, and few people regularly carry these kinds of drugs, have access to them, or even know about them.
But a commando would, I say.
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All,
Been going over all the 302, radio transcripts and this forum trying to find out who was talking to whom on the flight from Portland to Seattle then to Reno. Need clarification on a few things:
1. How were comms with MSP ops conducted: radio or ARINC or both? I read here Flo did some comms with them as well while in the cockpit.
2. Who did most of the talking to SEATAC, both area approach and later tower? I'm assuming Scott as Captain but did Rataczak also?
3. Was flight 305 ever in contact with the chase plane (C-130) or Darts? I'm assuming no but could be wrong.
Thank you in advance for any info.
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All,
Been going over all the 302, radio transcripts and this forum trying to find out who was talking to whom on the flight from Portland to Seattle then to Reno. Need clarification on a few things:
1. How were comms with MSP ops conducted: radio or ARINC or both? I read here Flo did some comms with them as well while in the cockpit.
2. Who did most of the talking to SEATAC, both area approach and later tower? I'm assuming Scott as Captain but did Rataczak also?
3. Was flight 305 ever in contact with the chase plane (C-130) or Darts? I'm assuming no but could be wrong.
Thank you in advance for any info.
Most of the above items are covered in detail in the flight path thread with my name on it. Here is a brief review specifically for your questions.
1. The airliner was only equipped with VHF (line of sight) radios for communications. It only had the radio capability to communicate with FAA facilities and ARINC ground stations. However, the ARINC ground stations could do telephone patches to land line telephones. As these radio/telephone conversations were going on, the ARINC ground stations were sending teletype messages as usual. Consequently, the teletype message would needed to be processed and arrived at the destination about 2 to 4 minutes after the voice radio/telephone conversations took place. Flo did talk to the FBI and NWA people at various locations over the ARINC radio/telephone patch.
2. It was customary for one pilot to fly the airplane and the other pilot to handle the communications. So both Scott and Rataczak probably handled the air traffic control communications at different times. The airliner was under sequential control of several different controllers at the Seattle Air Traffic Control Center from take off until it was handed off to the Oakland ATC Center in Northern California. After that, it was Oakland and Reno Tower controllers that were involved. SEATAC tower was not involved with the airliner after it took off.
3. Immediately after the airliner was handed off to an Oakland controller, that controller told the C-130 not to transmit on the VHF channel but to listen in if he wanted to do so. He also told the C-130 to contact him on the appropriate UHF channel if he needed to. So if the C-130 contacted the airliner directly, it would have been while under control of the Seattle ATC and those communications, if any, were redacted from the Seattle ATC transcripts.
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Good info R 99.
I have seen some military aircraft that didn't have VHF comm radios, just UHF. For example early T 38s had UHF only. FAA ATC has both VHF and UHF so even a UHF only military plane could communicate with ATC.
I still love the story of the McChord Herc intercepting the NWA NORJACK 727 when two SAGE guided F 106 advanced tech interceptors were unable to do so. Bet those Herc pilots gave the fighter jocks a hard time.
377
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Good info R 99.
I have seen some military aircraft that didn't have VHF comm radios, just UHF. For example early T 38s had UHF only. FAA ATC has both VHF and UHF so even a UHF only military plane could communicate with ATC.
I still love the story of the McChord Herc intercepting the NWA NORJACK 727 when two SAGE guided F 106 advanced tech interceptors were unable to do so. Bet those Herc pilots gave the fighter jocks a hard time.
377
Typically, UHF is the standard for military aircraft and I have known military pilots who preferred UHF over VHF. The C-130 was a search and rescue aircraft from somewhere in northern California (I think). So it would be logical for it to have a VHF transceiver, in addition to the UHF, so that it could talk directly to civilian aircraft and law enforcement officials.
The C-130 stayed with the airliner all the way to Reno and is last mentioned in the radio transcripts as being at 12,000 feet above the Reno airport while the airliner was landing.
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Bill Rataczak discussed communications at length in my conversation with him in 2009. What I heard him say was that he was in charge of most of the communications from 305 to NWO and Seattle Control on the inbound flight, as Scotty was flying the plane.
Andy Anderson also assisted in some comm, both inbound to Seattle and out.
When Rataczak took over the flight controls at Sea-Tac, he inferred that Scotty was in charge of comm on the way to Reno. Again, I assume that Anderson had lots of input on comm.
From GG and other sources I understand that the primary form of communication was the telex. There was also a lot of radio chatter, according to Marianne Lincoln, who told me she listened to the whole affair on her father's VHF radio. She says that she heard a lot of FBI commentary. Her biggest memory is that the hijacker asked for $400,000 and the FBI talked him down to $200K. I know that information is not supported by anyone else, but it is what one individual told me of what she recalls when she was 14-years old.
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Bill Rataczak discussed communications at length in my conversation with him in 2009. What I heard him say was that he was in charge of most of the communications from 305 to NWO and Seattle Control on the inbound flight, as Scotty was flying the plane.
Andy Anderson also assisted in some comm, both inbound to Seattle and out.
When Rataczak took over the flight controls at Sea-Tac, he inferred that Scotty was in charge of comm on the way to Reno. Again, I assume that Anderson had lots of input on comm.
From GG and other sources I understand that the primary form of communication was the telex. There was also a lot of radio chatter, according to Marianne Lincoln, who told me she listened to the whole affair on her father's VHF radio. She says that she heard a lot of FBI commentary. Her biggest memory is that the hijacker asked for $400,000 and the FBI talked him down to $200K. I know that information is not supported by anyone else, but it is what one individual told me of what she recalls when she was 14-years old.
Bruce, your highly unreliable witness didn't hear anything on the radio except what was in the immediate area of SEATAC airport. After the ARINC radio/telephone link was established, it was the primary form of communication between the airliner and NWA/FBI. There was no "FBI commentary" on the radio as the communications were handled by the flight crew and FAA and NWA personnel. The hijacker was never close to any radio. Also, Cooper asked for $200,000 in his original ransom note, so there is no basis for the $400,000 number.
Your posting myths such as the above only adds another layer of nonsense to the Cooper commentary.
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A person's remembrances may be incorrect, but they are still part of the story. Regardless of the overall truth of Marianne's memory, she may also be sharing some small details that could be useful in better understanding what really happened.
As for dealing with layers of myth and the difficulty they may be present, the task I think is to mentally hold them in abeyance until more info is gathered. Holding widely differing pieces of information is not easy to do for most people, I suppose. I certainly see that in LE. The TV show, The Blacklist, illustrates that dynamic splendidly, where the "bad Guy" Ray Reddington makes regular comments on the FBI's rigidity in thinking and advises his associates to "stop thinking like an FBI agent and more like a criminal."
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A person's remembrances may be incorrect, but they are still part of the story. Regardless of the overall truth of Marianne's memory, she may also be sharing some small details that could be useful in better understanding what really happened.
If we are not to believe what a person states (regardless of the overall truth) how could these statements help the case?
kind of like a cop chasing a car and losing sight, bad guy turns left at the intersection. the cop arrives and a guy says "I think he turned right"....how useful will this be to the cop?
Blevins goes by a statement made by a Sheriff..he said the dynamite had plastic coating on it..according to the witness statements it was the wires that had coating, and not the dynamite. do you take the word of the actual witness, or someone who wasn't really part of the case, only the search? he also stated the plane was at 7,000 which was true, but very early in the flight.
you need facts to move forward with..
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Back in the the early 70's not sure of the year, or date I watched my friends mom shoot and kill her husband. I can tell you the street (Muller's Creek road) the house was a split level...what I can't do is tell you the name of my friend. my memory has faded to where I've lost names to the event. if the police were to ask me questions about the shooting I would be in big trouble trying to recall the event. I remember his older brother trying to grab the gun from his mother and hearing the gun go off, but I don't recall how it all came together ending in the loss of life...I don't remember much after the fact..
I must of been around 11 or 12 that I can figure. I doubt if I asked my mom whether she would remember anything either. I didn't lose any sleep, or school due to this...today all kinds of things would be put in place checking my mental status that would probably make it worse IMO.
This is one of the reasons I don't believe some of these people stating things like it was yesterday. sure, some have better memories than others, but all of them in the Cooper case seem to have perfect recall....
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A person's remembrances may be incorrect, but they are still part of the story. Regardless of the overall truth of Marianne's memory, she may also be sharing some small details that could be useful in better understanding what really happened.
As for dealing with layers of myth and the difficulty they may be present, the task I think is to mentally hold them in abeyance until more info is gathered. Holding widely differing pieces of information is not easy to do for most people, I suppose. I certainly see that in LE. The TV show, The Blacklist, illustrates that dynamic splendidly, where the "bad Guy" Ray Reddington makes regular comments on the FBI's rigidity in thinking and advises his associates to "stop thinking like an FBI agent and more like a criminal."
Bruce, the Cooper case is not a TV program. Once something is shown to be a myth it should be immediately thrown out with the trash. Only facts should be retained. You seem to have some difficulty distinguishing real life from what you see in TV entertainment programs. ::)
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Bruce could try and locate the woman..it is part of investigating, but you need to find out if any facts can be used in what she knows...a lot of time has passed so memories start playing tricks.
stating $400 grand vs 200 is a stretch..the FBI chased hundreds of leads, or stories like these...
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The actions of the FBI are confusing...take LD for example. they went through all sorts of hoops with Marla, and once the DNA didn't match they ruled him out...why not cut to the chase and just check prints, and DNA...why waste the manpower with the story? this opened the door for her to take advantage of the case itself..lots of people believe her and her story.
Marla Cooper believes her father was DB Cooper
Jo Weber believes her husband was DB Cooper
Robert Blevins believes Kenny was DB Cooper
Tom Colbert believes Rackstraw was DB Cooper
Sailshaw believed Peterson was DB Cooper
outside of Tom Colbert a pattern appears..it mostly surrounds one person stating who Cooper is/was. some will take harsh action if you disagree with them. Jo is basically by herself. she has convinced a few, but not many. Blevins keeps everything locked up and speaks for all..that's a huge red flag. Marla changed her story several times and wasn't consistent with much at all. I believe she read the DZ and adjusted where it was needed when it didn't make sense. she also had super memory.
Tom had an army of people with him, but I still don't agree with the conclusions.
If some of these people were in charge of a homicide on my street..I would be terrified of them accusing me of the crime.
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The actions of the FBI are confusing...take LD for example. they went through all sorts of hoops with Marla, and once the DNA didn't match they ruled him out...why not cut to the chase and just check prints, and DNA...why waste the manpower with the story? this opened the door for her to take advantage of the case itself..lots of people believe her and her story.
Marla Cooper believes her father was DB Cooper
Jo Weber believes her husband was DB Cooper
Robert Blevins believes Kenny was DB Cooper
Tom Colbert believes Rackstraw was DB Cooper
Sailshaw believed Peterson was DB Cooper
outside of Tom Colbert a pattern appears..it mostly surrounds one person stating who Cooper is/was. some will take harsh action if you disagree with them. Jo is basically by herself. she has convinced a few, but not many. Blevins keeps everything locked up and speaks for all..that's a huge red flag. Marla changed her story several times and wasn't consistent with much at all. I believe she read the DZ and adjusted where it was needed when it didn't make sense. she also had super memory.
Tom had an army of people with him, but I still don't agree with the conclusions.
If some of these people were in charge of a homicide on my street..I would be terrified of them accusing me of the crime.
Tom's team had star power! But, we know how crazy Hollywood can get. Maybe there are no checks & balances on Tom's team? But we are not privy to just how some of TC's conclusions were made, or drawn. The best that Tom has been able to do is get some FBI records released (Early?). Beyond that its a rodeo - anything can happen and the bear may get the clown! Ambulances should be on standby.
At least Tom spared us another 'science team'? Science is so over-rated! :rofl:
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Bruce could try and locate the woman..it is part of investigating, but you need to find out if any facts can be used in what she knows...a lot of time has passed so memories start playing tricks.
stating $400 grand vs 200 is a stretch..the FBI chased hundreds of leads, or stories like these...
My mouth dropped wide open when Marianne told me that she heard the radio chatter on the $400,000. I tried to argue with her, but she was adamant. Her passion, her belief in her memory is extraordinary.
Do I believe her? Not really. But I do file it away on a back burner in case it might be true. Especially since the radio traffic she is referencing is only known to us by a transcript with 19 redactions.
BTW: My paths cross with Marianne from time-to-time. She is a former school board member, active in the community, and a very involved political blogger. She told me her DB Cooper story while I was interviewing Democrats at the county fair. She was one of the party's organizers.
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it's kind of hard to dispute...the witness reports were taken on the evening of the hijacking..they would of had to tell them all to say 200 grand in there testimony...this was hours after the crime, not days...
what about Lauren Peterson who claims to have put 250 grand in the bag?
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... Once something is shown to be a myth it should be immediately thrown out with the trash. Only facts should be retained....
Ah, but what exactly is a fact?
From my point of view, "facts" are the goal. Before then we have "reports." HARD evidence tends to be accepted as factual more readily than soft evidence, like personal testimony. The latter requires a preponderance of confirming data, but sometimes that evidence is hard to get, skimpy, or confusing. Teasing it all out is the trick, I say.
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facts are known...
Cooper pulling the ripcord on the stairs is not a fact...
Cooper jumping from the stairs is....
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it's kind of hard to dispute...the witness reports were taken on the evening of the hijacking..they would of had to tell them all to say 200 grand in there testimony...this was hours after the crime, not days...
what about Lauren Peterson who claims to have put 250 grand in the bag?
I put that on a back burner too. I don't discard it, just park it for later reference.
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facts are known...
Cooper pulling the ripcord on the stairs is not a fact...
Cooper jumping from the stairs is....
In general, yes. But a more accurate description of Cooper's getaway is to say that he is presumed to have jumped from the stairs.
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facts are known...
Cooper pulling the ripcord on the stairs is not a fact...
Cooper jumping from the stairs is....
In general, yes. But a more accurate description of Cooper's getaway is to say that he is presumed to have jumped from the stairs.
Give us a break Donald! :nono:
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facts are known...
Cooper pulling the ripcord on the stairs is not a fact...
Cooper jumping from the stairs is....
In general, yes. But a more accurate description of Cooper's getaway is to say that he is presumed to have jumped from the stairs.
no, it's a fact..the plane was checked and no other exit available for Cooper to escape...
that term apply's to his heath after exit...
he was "presumed" dead, or you could "presume" he survived..
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So you don't think that John the FBI agent gave Alice his service revolver, and she then passed it to Bill Rataczak, who then shot and killed DBC - and a wet team cleaned up the mess in Reno?
Shut - ain't you got an imagination? Lots could have happened.
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I have a great imagination, but it doesn't always apply here...the question was surrounding facts, not imagination?
I believe some people who push suspects have a very active imagination though :conspiracy:
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For the record, I do believe that DBC jumped off the stairs. But I do hesitate to call it a fact since no one saw it happened. Hence, "presumed" is the qualifier I prefer using.
Just sayin'.
I suppose we could summon a bit o' QM here: Schrödinger's cats both jumped off the stair and stayed on-board until they are observed.
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For the record, I do believe that DBC jumped off the stairs. But I do hesitate to call it a fact since no one saw it happened. Hence, "presumed" is the qualifier I prefer using.
Just sayin'.
I suppose we could summon a bit o' QM here: Schrödinger's cats both jumped off the stair and stayed on-board until they are observed.
you didn't see the hijacking, so did it happen...where does this end?
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notice fact vs presumption, or interpretation here?
Fact: Three bundles of 20 dollar bills were found just below the surface of the sand on Tena Bar in 1980.
Fact: The bundles were identified as D.B. Cooper's because the FBI had recorded the serial numbers and the bills matched.
Fact: Sand was dredged from the Columbia River and dumped on Tena Bar in 1974.
FBI Transcript: The dredging sands were pushed 50 yards up and down the beach.
Interpretation: If the money find was substantially more than 50 yards from the dredging sands, it could not have been dredged from the river.
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notice fact vs presumption, or interpretation here?
Fact: Three bundles of 20 dollar bills were found just below the surface of the sand on Tena Bar in 1980.
Fact: The bundles were identified as D.B. Cooper's because the FBI had recorded the serial numbers and the bills matched.
Fact: Sand was dredged from the Columbia River and dumped on Tena Bar in 1974.
FBI Transcript: The dredging sands were pushed 50 yards up and down the beach.
Interpretation: If the money find was substantially more than 50 yards from the dredging sands, it could not have been dredged from the river.
FBI did not record the bill numbers.
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notice fact vs presumption, or interpretation here?
Fact: Three bundles of 20 dollar bills were found just below the surface of the sand on Tena Bar in 1980.
Fact: The bundles were identified as D.B. Cooper's because the FBI had recorded the serial numbers and the bills matched.
Fact: Sand was dredged from the Columbia River and dumped on Tena Bar in 1974.
FBI Transcript: The dredging sands were pushed 50 yards up and down the beach.
Interpretation: If the money find was substantially more than 50 yards from the dredging sands, it could not have been dredged from the river.
FBI did not record the bill numbers.
which bill numbers ? When? WTF are you talking about?
I think I will skip this regurgitation of mumbo-jumbo. See ya later sometime, or not.
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Here are some military 727 jumps that I had never heard of. Quote is below. The website is here. https://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/589590-new-theory-db-cooper-2.html
"Spooky 2
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: USofA
Posts: 1,016
Full disclosure. I was once involved with a corporate 727-200ADV and one of the owners sons was a very accomplished skydiver. We had plans to make a similar drop down in Florida. During our prep time we watched the US Army jump from an ATA 727 down at Marana, Arizona and watched a video of the US Army jumping from the stairs of a Pan Am B727. The Pan Am video was quite well done from both outside and inside the airplane. Very interesting and very doable for the right person. 4 people on the stair and it would stay fairly well extended. With just one person the opening got smaller but not so small you could not get out without killing yourself.
We never did the jumps as there was a scheduling conflict with airplane and the completion center down in Orlando, FL."
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Good Weekend, good sirs - Just doing some writing and finding 1970s air travel pics in colour. Scroll down for NWO. http://www.ultraswank.net/travel/airports-looked-like-1970s/
And here is my all time fave airport, in Gander, Newfoundland. The lounge is a throwback to the era. http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/gander-airport-renovations-lounge-1.4251228
https://www.canadianarchitect.com/features/ganders-glorious-room/
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Good ol' Gander.
I remember the TWA Constellations flying over my house in NY on their approach to Idlewild Airport - now JFK International. They were all coming in from a refueling stop at Gander on their way back from Europe - a 13 hour flight, I believe.
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Not quite sure which thread it was, but someone was asking whether the feds did a good search of the Portland airport area to see if anyone saw Cooper arrive at the airport. I think it was Himmelsbach (I could be wrong, and pls don't make me look for it right now, eyes adjusting to new contacts)who stated that search was very thorough, taking in everything from bus, taxi, and car rental services to restaurants, hotels, motels, and possibly henhouses and outhouses in the area. Nobody recalled anyone matching Cooper's description.
Of course, it is entirely possible that Cooper simply stepped off another plane. I don't know whether the feds would have checked ARRIVALS at Portland who did not have connecting flights. Cooper didn't, if he did arrive by plane; he bought his Seattle ticket at Portland in cash.
Wherever he was before buying that ticket, he doesn't seem to have done anything that would attract any attention. I'm guessing, then, that he didn't really "lounge" anywhere in the airport for any noteworthy period of time.
Anyway, that's really my only input on that. I do recall reading the feds checked service providers of all kinds in the area pretty thoroughly - even shoe shine people.
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That's my general understanding of the FBI investigation of PDX and environs, too.
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That's my general understanding of the FBI investigation of PDX and environs, too.
Bruce, there was a gentleman on here a few weeks ago who was writing a DBC piece and included a very detailed description of Portland airport at that time. Do you happen to know who it was and/or which thread it was under? I can't figured out where I saved it to on my PC and wanted to read it again. He was a newbie.
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Nope. I remember the occurrence, but I don't know where it was posted here. Isn't there a "search function" here? Please don't ask me how to find it though....
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You might be talking about DavidV...he posted a pic of the ticket counter....
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You might be talking about DavidV...he posted a pic of the ticket counter....
Yes, that's him - thanks! I finally found where I had downloaded the doc to finish later. Very helpful description of the airport interior at the time.
I've seen mentioned in that doc and elsewhere that Cooper was reading a newspaper early on in the fight. I haven't found that in any of the witness testimonies - does anyone know if there is confirmation of this?
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You might be talking about DavidV...he posted a pic of the ticket counter....
where was this posted and when?
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I've seen mentioned in that doc and elsewhere that Cooper was reading a newspaper early on in the fight. I haven't found that in any of the witness testimonies - does anyone know if there is confirmation of this?
I haven't heard of it.
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You might be talking about DavidV...he posted a pic of the ticket counter....
where was this posted and when?
I've sent him a message to find out where he heard of it. I haven't read Skyjack by GG - maybe in there somewhere? I haven't found it in the witness statements so far, but possible Flo or someone else mentioned it in a non-FBI interview.
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You might be talking about DavidV...he posted a pic of the ticket counter....
where was this posted and when?
I've sent him a message to find out where he heard of it. I haven't read Skyjack by GG - maybe in there somewhere? I haven't found it in the witness statements so far, but possible Flo or someone else mentioned it in a non-FBI interview.
Cooper passed the hijacking note to Flo before the airplane even got out to the runway to take off, so it is unlikely that he was reading a newspaper anywhere on the flight.
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Those who jumped from the 727 at the World Free Fall Convention qualified for a DB Cooper number based on their exit number. Thousands were awarded. My DC 9 jump did not count. Wrong plane.
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someone asked me about the tie clip today...I took a pic of mine with my phone camera (horrible) but it should give you an idea how small it really is and makes you wonder how so many could remember this little thing decades later...nothing flashy about it.
The clip has no markings what so ever on it..the clip is fragile, it will bend easily while trying to put it on a tie until you get use to clipping it on...the clip is still gold..the photo didn't take very well..
I only wore it once...Vicki, and Mark Bennett were down here several years ago and I met them at a bar up the street..I put on my pilot uniform, clip on tie with the clip so they could spot me :rofl:
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You might be talking about DavidV...he posted a pic of the ticket counter....
where was this posted and when?
I've sent him a message to find out where he heard of it. I haven't read Skyjack by GG - maybe in there somewhere? I haven't found it in the witness statements so far, but possible Flo or someone else mentioned it in a non-FBI interview.
Ah, Bruce's book mentions something about Red Campbell's FBI team at Reno failing to extract fingerprints from magazines which Cooper read. DanV mentions a newspaper. But still not sure where either description comes from. It's possible Cooper read during the flight, though offhand it's the last thing I would think of doing mid-hijacking, and I read all the time; I'd read in my sleep if I could see through my eyelids. Still, mid-heist seems counter-intuitive - but then, it was a long flight. Does anyone know of any witness interviews outside the FBI ones, which don't mention it, that refer to Cooper reading?
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someone asked me about the tie clip today...I took a pic of mine with my phone camera (horrible) but it should give you an idea how small it really is and makes you wonder how so many could remember this little thing decades later...nothing flashy about it.
The clip has no markings what so ever on it..the clip is fragile, it will bend easily while trying to put it on a tie until you get use to clipping it on...the clip is still gold..the photo didn't take very well..
I only wore it once...Vicki, and Mark Bennett were down here several years ago and I met them at a bar up the street..I put on my pilot uniform, clip on tie with the clip so they could spot me :rofl:
That was funny. I remember Vicki asked "how will we recognize you?". And, the only thing you'd tell her is "you'll know". 8)
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someone asked me about the tie clip today...I took a pic of mine with my phone camera (horrible) but it should give you an idea how small it really is and makes you wonder how so many could remember this little thing decades later...nothing flashy about it.
The clip has no markings what so ever on it..the clip is fragile, it will bend easily while trying to put it on a tie until you get use to clipping it on...the clip is still gold..the photo didn't take very well..
I only wore it once...Vicki, and Mark Bennett were down here several years ago and I met them at a bar up the street..I put on my pilot uniform, clip on tie with the clip so they could spot me :rofl:
That was funny. I remember Vicki asked "how will we recognize you?". And, the only thing you'd tell her is "you'll know". 8)
lol, I forgot about that.... O0
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I've liked meeting fellow forum members in person. Met many at the Portland Forum and every encounter was fun and pleasant, no exceptions.
Jerry, who could get pretty cantankerous and confrontational on Dropzone, was as warm and friendly as could be. We talked a lot about Cooper's jump and the chances of his survival. Jerry had some points. I had some points. We respectfully agreed to disagree and had a good time discussing the case.
I had such a wonderful time at that event. I remain grateful to Grey for sponsoring it at what must have been a considerable expense.
I don't see any DBC movie being a box office hit, but I hope I am wrong and Blevins makes some money.
The History Channel Case Closed DBC video (both parts) is available as a download on Amazon in HD for a reasonable price.
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I've liked meeting fellow forum members in person. Met many at the Portland Forum and every encounter was fun and pleasant, no exceptions.
Jerry, who could get pretty cantankerous and confrontational on Dropzone, was as warm and friendly as could be. We talked a lot about Cooper's jump and the chances of his survival. Jerry had some points. I had some points. We respectfully agreed to disagree and had a good time discussing the case.
I had such a wonderful time at that event. I remain grateful to Grey for sponsoring it at what must have been a considerable expense.
I don't see any DBC movie being a box office hit, but I hope I am wrong and Blevins makes some money.
The History Channel Case Closed DBC video (both parts) is available as a download on Amazon in HD for a reasonable price.
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Throughout Blevins' years of posts about this, Blevins has stressed a movie deal. Blevins doesnt care about money or facts- its the deal and The Art of the Deal. FAME. His criticism of people here was that they were too "stupid" to see and turning down, the movie _ deal!
Blevins wants his name to go down in history as a serious Cooper researcher with the art of the deal. The deal. The lottery. The Cooper casino. It's the art of the deal ... who gives a fuck about facts or truth when there is a "deal" at stake! :rofl: Money will come because of the deal, or it won't! Sweep everything else under the rug! It's "the deal" that matters. The movie "deal". :D Everyone and everything else is expendable, except Bev is now also decided to support the Poor, too. Which is the same as supporting himself. The move_deal. :)
He says of people here, quote: they missed out on the deal.
Im going to the grocery store as soon as Im done with this - I think I will git me a corn casserole deal. :rofl: To go along with the Gold Dirt movie deal thats starts at 7:00 tonight. Its the deal of the century.
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"missed out on the deal"
Not at all..the producers and others know exactly how to get a hold of someone..he first stated 15 grand, then it was "up to 15 grand" if not mistaken, Bruce finally took him up on the offer only to have a flood of rules following the offer..I don't have any other words other than, he's full of shit..
I have dealt with producers just as others have..they have asked me to contact someone and if I couldn't, guess what, they found them..they all have research teams. 4 of the producers from The Learning channel are members here, so are producers from Atlas production..CBS, radio personalities are members here, as well as people from Homeland security..yep, they check out Cooper while working C:-) colleges are members here, all sorts of people..
Robert is a very odd person..I've never had to deal with someone like him before..he will blast me for all sorts of things and turn right around and do the exact thing he claims to be against..even members (when he had them) complained..he held his own forum hostage trying to get me to lift the ban on him...when I would post on You Tube, he would reply soon after..I blocked his email, and he finds an opening through our website to contact me..I sent him an email showing the 302 where they checked the employee's to make sure he seen it..I got blasted for that since he was blocked, I told him he can block me when ever he wishes, but there was a reason I did it..when I was dealing with the producers I never said anything bad about him..he was brought up, but considered not relevant...Robert, will be the little school boy and tell them we are "bad people" and praise how he "warned them about us" all of this for going against his evidence, and catching him in some lies..almost 5 years dealing with him...
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Hopefully, nothing happens like this once they find all the error's in the KC saga :rofl:
...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wywCqNgF2f8
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"missed out on the deal"
Not at all..the producers and others know exactly how to get a hold of someone..he first stated 15 grand, then it was "up to 15 grand" if not mistaken, Bruce finally took him up on the offer only to have a flood of rules following the offer..I don't have any other words other than, he's full of shit..
I have dealt with producers just as others have..they have asked me to contact someone and if I couldn't, guess what, they found them..they all have research teams. 4 of the producers from The Learning channel are members here, so are producers from Atlas production..CBS, radio personalities are members here, as well as people from Homeland security..yep, they check out Cooper while working C:-) colleges are members here, all sorts of people..
Robert is a very odd person..I've never had to deal with someone like him before..he will blast me for all sorts of things and turn right around and do the exact thing he claims to be against..even members (when he had them) complained..he held his own forum hostage trying to get me to lift the ban on him...when I would post on You Tube, he would reply soon after..I blocked his email, and he finds an opening through our website to contact me..I sent him an email showing the 302 where they checked the employee's to make sure he seen it..I got blasted for that since he was blocked, I told him he can block me when ever he wishes, but there was a reason I did it..when I was dealing with the producers I never said anything bad about him..he was brought up, but considered not relevant...Robert, will be the little school boy and tell them we are "bad people" and praise how he "warned them about us" all of this for going against his evidence, and catching him in some lies..almost 5 years dealing with him...
Anyone who would pay "RobertMBlevins" a single cent for any kind of rights to the KC book should be wearing a straight jacket and locked in a padded room.
Further, my exchanges with Blevins and Jo Weber are preserved for history on the DropZone web site in the original language, profanity included. Those two and I probably exchanged at least a thousand posts on DZ.
Robert99
P.S., For the record, I was certified as being "sane enough" :) a number of decades ago as a prerequisite to being allowed to participate in a certain research program. :-X
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Even if I didn't know Blevins, I would have the same views I have today. it would be a very stupid idea to commit a crime where you work. contrary to what Mr. Blevins claims, they did look into the employee's..they even looked in Minnesota..
Kenny sounds and appears to be a normal person..lots of people are unhappy with there employment, very few commit any crimes other than stealing office supplies..he would look a little better leaving the company a year later, but he stayed for decades..it couldn't possible be as bad as Blevins has painted this...he did this with the apartment complex Kenny lived in prior to buying the house...it's in horrible shape today, so Robert took advantage of that implying Kenny had hit rock bottom..the problem is the complex was only a year old at the time...
Kenny was short, bald, and pale..a suntan will not fix the problem..Kenny is the same height as Tina..that's the nail in the coffin, anyway you look at it..
This story has become completely separate from the Cooper story..almost everything has been changed at Roberts will. the height, the complexion, the hair. he claims they never checked employee records. the bomb was not made the way the witnesses describe. we now must throw away the description of Cooper, it no longer fits the story.
The new DB Cooper
age - 35-60
height 5' 5" to 6' 1"
weight 140-195
Hair color brn, blk, blon,red (wore a toupee)
eye color brn, blk, green.
complexion..suntanned from Japan..
If you have seen this person, contact the FBI..never mind, they stopped looking for Cooper because Kenny is dead...more he changed with the story...
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Even if I didn't know Blevins, I would have the same views I have today. it would be a very stupid idea to commit a crime where you work. contrary to what Mr. Blevins claims, they did look into the employee's..they even looked in Minnesota..
Kenny sounds and appears to be a normal person..lots of people are unhappy with there employment, very few commit any crimes other than stealing office supplies..he would look a little better leaving the company a year later, but he stayed for decades..it couldn't possible be as bad as Blevins has painted this...he did this with the apartment complex Kenny lived in prior to buying the house...it's in horrible shape today, so Robert took advantage of that implying Kenny had hit rock bottom..the problem is the complex was only a year old at the time...
Kenny was short, bald, and pale..a suntan will not fix the problem..Kenny is the same height as Tina..that's the nail in the coffin, anyway you look at it..
This story has become completely separate from the Cooper story..almost everything has been changed at Roberts will. the height, the complexion, the hair. he claims they never checked employee records. the bomb was not made the way the witnesses describe. we now must throw away the description of Cooper, it no longer fits the story.
The new DB Cooper
age - 35-60
height 5' 5" to 6' 1"
weight 140-195
Hair color brn, blk, blon,red (wore a toupee)
eye color brn, blk, green.
complexion..suntanned from Japan..
If you have seen this person, contact the FBI..never mind, they stopped looking for Cooper because Kenny is dead...more he changed with the story...
When it was discovered that Blevins was concealing, exaggerating, changing, and even making up facts about Kenny - at that point Blevins' whole case against Kenny collapsed (a made up piece of nonsense). Just like Jo Weber and her story about her husband. These wannabe Cooper suspect promoters need to find a day job and get off the grift! It's a mental health issue with these people.
:conspiracy:
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Another 727 jump video. Exit whooshes clearly audible.
https://www.facebook.com/RedMarauder/videos/1420894486643/
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Another 727 jump video. Exit whooshes clearly audible.
https://www.facebook.com/RedMarauder/videos/1420894486643/
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I don't think this would be the case with Cooper, he was technically out of the plane..what registered on the gauges was the door movement...
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When it was discovered that Blevins was concealing, exaggerating, changing, and even making up facts about Kenny - at that point Blevins' whole case against Kenny collapsed (a made up piece of nonsense). Just like Jo Weber and her story about her husband. These wannabe Cooper suspect promoters need to find a day job and get off the grift! It's a mental health issue with these people.
It appears that the internet fills in the gaps of a lonely life..he's up at all hours of the night pounding away at the keyboard. he always feels he has to explain everything. the only times he's active is internet related..most of his stories are exaggerated to the fullest, or not even plausible. he constantly seeks attention & approval. he fits the description Carr gives about Cooper.."knows enough to get himself in trouble" or reads a few things about something and becomes an expert. his advise is horrible, as well as his predictions due to the lack of knowledge. he feels superior over everyone else..he has been on a 5 year mission trying to prove himself to us. acting like someone else online vs your real personality is troubling. that's why he disappears when events come around...the excuses pop up why he can't make it...falling down some stairs was classic. it takes a lot to stop me from going somewhere..I've went back to work walking out of the emergency room...we were working at a hospital and I was hit on the top of the head with a spring loaded rollup shutter..10 stitches and back to work...I've worked with a broken foot, and hand.
after 5 years he says he has learned his lesson..only time will tell..
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When it was discovered that Blevins was concealing, exaggerating, changing, and even making up facts about Kenny - at that point Blevins' whole case against Kenny collapsed (a made up piece of nonsense). Just like Jo Weber and her story about her husband. These wannabe Cooper suspect promoters need to find a day job and get off the grift! It's a mental health issue with these people.
It appears that the internet fills in the gaps of a lonely life..he's up at all hours of the night pounding away at the keyboard. he always feels he has to explain everything. the only times he's active is internet related..most of his stories are exaggerated to the fullest, or not even plausible. he constantly seeks attention & approval. he fits the description Carr gives about Cooper.."knows enough to get himself in trouble" or reads a few things about something and becomes an expert. his advise is horrible, as well as his predictions due to the lack of knowledge. he feels superior over everyone else..he has been on a 5 year mission trying to prove himself to us. acting like someone else online vs your real personality is troubling. that's why he disappears when events come around...the excuses pop up why he can't make it...falling down some stairs was classic. it takes a lot to stop me from going somewhere..I've went back to work walking out of the emergency room...we were working at a hospital and I was hit on the top of the head with a spring loaded rollup shutter..10 stitches and back to work...I've worked with a broken foot, and hand.
after 5 years he says he has learned his lesson..only time will tell..
My feeling is, an overall appraisal of a real Cooper suspect would only get stronger with every test, not weaker! Especially in the area of prints and dna. There might be some surprising differences in skills and background, maybe not. Someone was DB Cooper.
It may boil down to that. :)
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Another 727 jump video. Exit whooshes clearly audible.
https://www.facebook.com/RedMarauder/videos/1420894486643/
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I don't think this would be the case with Cooper, he was technically out of the plane..what registered on the gauges was the door movement...
I think you are probably correct Shutter, but we still don't know the exact mechanism which causes the whoosh. One person speculated it was a reflected wave from the exiting jumper hitting the slipstream. I am an EE, not an Aero E, so I can offer no expertise. No doubt the upward door movement caused a brief spike in cabin pressure, but might there have also been a separate pressure event when Cooper hit the slipstream? Occam and I think the observed pressure blip was registered when Cooper jumped. It's by far the most likely explanation.
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Jo has renewed fervor about the letter codes proving Duane was Cooper. I cannot figure out what she is trying to say. Does anyone have the Cliff Notes on this latest claim?
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Jo has renewed fervor about the letter codes proving Duane was Cooper. I cannot figure out what she is trying to say. Does anyone have the Cliff Notes on this latest claim?
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Jo probably doesn't know what she is trying to say either. But if she is claiming that those letter codes are suppose to refer to some military job title, then she is mistaken. They don't.
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"missed out on the deal"
Not at all..the producers and others know exactly how to get a hold of someone..he first stated 15 grand, then it was "up to 15 grand" if not mistaken, Bruce finally took him up on the offer only to have a flood of rules following the offer..I don't have any other words other than, he's full of shit..
I have dealt with producers just as others have..they have asked me to contact someone and if I couldn't, guess what, they found them..they all have research teams. 4 of the producers from The Learning channel are members here, so are producers from Atlas production..CBS, radio personalities are members here, as well as people from Homeland security..yep, they check out Cooper while working C:-) colleges are members here, all sorts of people..
Robert is a very odd person..I've never had to deal with someone like him before..he will blast me for all sorts of things and turn right around and do the exact thing he claims to be against..even members (when he had them) complained..he held his own forum hostage trying to get me to lift the ban on him...when I would post on You Tube, he would reply soon after..I blocked his email, and he finds an opening through our website to contact me..I sent him an email showing the 302 where they checked the employee's to make sure he seen it..I got blasted for that since he was blocked, I told him he can block me when ever he wishes, but there was a reason I did it..when I was dealing with the producers I never said anything bad about him..he was brought up, but considered not relevant...Robert, will be the little school boy and tell them we are "bad people" and praise how he "warned them about us" all of this for going against his evidence, and catching him in some lies..almost 5 years dealing with him...
Anyone who would pay "RobertMBlevins" a single cent for any kind of rights to the KC book should be wearing a straight jacket and locked in a padded room.
Further, my exchanges with Blevins and Jo Weber are preserved for history on the DropZone web site in the original language, profanity included. Those two and I probably exchanged at least a thousand posts on DZ.
Robert99
P.S., For the record, I was certified as being "sane enough" :) a number of decades ago as a prerequisite to being allowed to participate in a certain research program. :-X
There's probably a Master's Thesis in Communications about the Phenomenology of D.B. Cooper Obsession waiting to be written, especially re: those who are 100% sold on a particular suspect. It's long been obvious KC wasn't Cooper, ditto Weber (and yes, IMHO, Rackstraw). I see a few people on various comment threads and forums, including the comment section at TMN, developing their own new suspects now, which is awesome, but I do worry they'll get so hung up on one suspect that even if they're disproven, confirmation bias will park them permanently on a dead-end street. I think that is THE caveat before you go down this rabbit-hole.
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I concur, Lynn. Just for fun I'm gonna write a Suspects Update with concomitant sleuths supporting. I'll post it on the Suspects page.
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I concur, Lynn. Just for fun I'm gonna write a Suspects Update with concomitant sleuths supporting. I'll post it on the Suspects page.
Ooh, let me know when, I'm outta popcorn at the mo...;)
P.S. I am BEGGING you all to stop talking about KC for a while. There's nothing new, nobody who can read believes he's DBC, end of. But every time he comes up here, that guy starts frothing at the mouth over at TMN and it's sending TMN into my junk mail because I don't read the responses or I'll also have to hear how it's all to do with Jon Benet Ramsay or something, yet I don't want TMN updates going to junk mail in case Bruce posts new stuff.
Alternately, could we find an equally ridiculous suspect to shoot down for a while? Me, for instance. I was 3, pudgy, unemployed and short. So far, age, weight, job and height appear to be ignorable issues, so there is no reason to believe I am not DB Cooper. Have at.
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"missed out on the deal"
Not at all..the producers and others know exactly how to get a hold of someone..he first stated 15 grand, then it was "up to 15 grand" if not mistaken, Bruce finally took him up on the offer only to have a flood of rules following the offer..I don't have any other words other than, he's full of shit..
I have dealt with producers just as others have..they have asked me to contact someone and if I couldn't, guess what, they found them..they all have research teams. 4 of the producers from The Learning channel are members here, so are producers from Atlas production..CBS, radio personalities are members here, as well as people from Homeland security..yep, they check out Cooper while working C:-) colleges are members here, all sorts of people..
Robert is a very odd person..I've never had to deal with someone like him before..he will blast me for all sorts of things and turn right around and do the exact thing he claims to be against..even members (when he had them) complained..he held his own forum hostage trying to get me to lift the ban on him...when I would post on You Tube, he would reply soon after..I blocked his email, and he finds an opening through our website to contact me..I sent him an email showing the 302 where they checked the employee's to make sure he seen it..I got blasted for that since he was blocked, I told him he can block me when ever he wishes, but there was a reason I did it..when I was dealing with the producers I never said anything bad about him..he was brought up, but considered not relevant...Robert, will be the little school boy and tell them we are "bad people" and praise how he "warned them about us" all of this for going against his evidence, and catching him in some lies..almost 5 years dealing with him...
Anyone who would pay "RobertMBlevins" a single cent for any kind of rights to the KC book should be wearing a straight jacket and locked in a padded room.
Further, my exchanges with Blevins and Jo Weber are preserved for history on the DropZone web site in the original language, profanity included. Those two and I probably exchanged at least a thousand posts on DZ.
Robert99
P.S., For the record, I was certified as being "sane enough" :) a number of decades ago as a prerequisite to being allowed to participate in a certain research program. :-X
There's probably a Master's Thesis in Communications about the Phenomenology of D.B. Cooper Obsession waiting to be written, especially re: those who are 100% sold on a particular suspect. It's long been obvious KC wasn't Cooper, ditto Weber (and yes, IMHO, Rackstraw). I see a few people on various comment threads and forums, including the comment section at TMN, developing their own new suspects now, which is awesome, but I do worry they'll get so hung up on one suspect that even if they're disproven, confirmation bias will park them permanently on a dead-end street. I think that is THE caveat before you go down this rabbit-hole.
I'm just the opposite Lynn. I get behind no suspect. I'd love to see the case solved, and I'd love to have that suspect that I think was the guy, but I'm still waiting for that smoking gun!
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Is it possible that some of the money was spent? It's my understanding that all the FBI had was a list of serial numbers, which in the early 70's banks would have had to cross reference each twenty by hand. I'd like to think that DBC was able to enjoy the fruits of his labor.
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Is it possible that some of the money was spent? It's my understanding that all the FBI had was a list of serial numbers, which in the early 70's banks would have had to cross reference each twenty by hand. I'd like to think that DBC was able to enjoy the fruits of his labor.
With the list of bill serial numbers set up properly, a bank teller could check out any twenty dollar bill she received that could have come from Cooper's loot in a matter of five seconds or so. The bills in the bank's stash for such emergencies were not as random as you may believe. This has already been discussed at great length on this site and at DropZone.
Finally, in reality there is no reason to believe that Cooper survived the jump and the bundles of bills found at Tina Bar strongly suggest that he didn't.
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Is it possible that some of the money was spent? It's my understanding that all the FBI had was a list of serial numbers, which in the early 70's banks would have had to cross reference each twenty by hand. I'd like to think that DBC was able to enjoy the fruits of his labor.
With the list of bill serial numbers set up properly, a bank teller could check out any twenty dollar bill she received that could have come from Cooper's loot in a matter of five seconds or so. The bills in the bank's stash for such emergencies were not as random as you may believe. This has already been discussed at great length on this site and at DropZone.
Finally, in reality there is no reason to believe that Cooper survived the jump and the bundles of bills found at Tina Bar strongly suggest that he didn't.
It might only take 5 seconds, but then you'd have to assume that every teller at every bank in the world was that diligent over every US $20 for many years. I don't just doubt that, I'm quite certain it didn't happen outside the PNW for more than a year and inside it for more than 5, and that's at best. That cash would have been fully spendable within a year, two max, and if in circulation would have deteriorated, as most bills do, within 3.5-5 years give or take. A retired cop here basically says the serial numbers are only useful if you catch a suspect with a wad of the loot, not if s/he spends one bill even days afterwards. https://www.quora.com/How-does-robbery-bait-money-get-tracked
The money find at Tena Bar, after a long review of the thread, proves nothing about the fate of Cooper himself and has generated far more questions than it has answered. Given the way the money was attached, he could have lost all or part of the money and still survived the jump. The condition of the money was also not consistent with the money having come out of the water.
My own first impulse was to say Cooper died, but the more I read, the less convinced I am that that is so. Looking at the maps of the area where they thought he jumped, in fact, the terrain looks a lot less daunting than I would have anticipated. Wouldn't say for sure Cooper survived, but given that copycats later survived similar jumps (despite being caught), I wouldn't lay any money on his death.
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R99 wrote: "Finally, in reality there is no reason to believe that Cooper survived the jump and the bundles of bills found at Tina Bar strongly suggest that he didn't. "
I go around and around about whether the bills and chards found at T Bar mean Cooper died in the jump. The jump was risky but definitely survivable. Crooks almost never throw money away and the buried shard field rules out a plant IMO.
On optimistic days I think Cooper survived the jump but lost at least some of the money during the descent. On other days, I think he died and the body was underwater.
If he died, however, someone was suddenly missing. A car went abandoned. A renter stopped paying. A mortgage went into default. Utility bills stacked up unpaid. A friend or relative disappeared. Those things should have been noticed and tied to a possible suspect who looked even a little bit like the sketches.
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Is it possible that some of the money was spent? It's my understanding that all the FBI had was a list of serial numbers, which in the early 70's banks would have had to cross reference each twenty by hand. I'd like to think that DBC was able to enjoy the fruits of his labor.
YES, it is POSSIBLE.
Everything after that is speculation.
Fact, he either died in the jump or survived. Both theories are viable.
TBAR bills were the only ones found that matched the FBI list. The bill list created by the Bank prior to the hijacking and curated by the FBI had an error but that is another topic. The original Bank Recordak (Micro) is missing so no way to check.
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R99 wrote: "Finally, in reality there is no reason to believe that Cooper survived the jump and the bundles of bills found at Tina Bar strongly suggest that he didn't. "
I go around and around about whether the bills and chards found at T Bar mean Cooper died in the jump. The jump was risky but definitely survivable. Crooks almost never throw money away and the buried shard field rules out a plant IMO.
Planting money to find and burying it briefly are two different things. Cooper didn't get his knapsack, so his ground getaway was now hindered by a big bag of money. You'd look suspicious hiking or walking into a strange town carrying a big bag of money. The briefcase emptied could have held a fraction of it, but not the full 200,000. So if he didn't have accomplices or a getaway vehicle stowed somewhere - and I honestly don't know how he could have connected with either from a random DZ unless that second sack had a radio, (and in that case he still would have had to get it to the ground with all that other stuff without damaging it) he might have had to briefly hide much of the money.
Quick question: could a dummy chest pack be forced to hold another object of any size? Or is it so tightly packed that you couldn't get a toothpick in there? Could it double as a knapsack to prying eyes? (I'm still shaving at how much he could have discarded without notice and how much he had to have been carrying on/attached to his person, both on leaving the plane and, if he survived, during his ground getaway).
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R99 wrote: "Finally, in reality there is no reason to believe that Cooper survived the jump and the bundles of bills found at Tina Bar strongly suggest that he didn't. "
I go around and around about whether the bills and chards found at T Bar mean Cooper died in the jump. The jump was risky but definitely survivable. Crooks almost never throw money away and the buried shard field rules out a plant IMO.
Planting money to find and burying it briefly are two different things. Cooper didn't get his knapsack, so his ground getaway was now hindered by a big bag of money. You'd look suspicious hiking or walking into a strange town carrying a big bag of money. The briefcase emptied could have held a fraction of it, but not the full 200,000. So if he didn't have accomplices or a getaway vehicle stowed somewhere - and I honestly don't know how he could have connected with either from a random DZ unless that second sack had a radio, (and in that case he still would have had to get it to the ground with all that other stuff without damaging it) he might have had to briefly hide much of the money.
Quick question: could a dummy chest pack be forced to hold another object of any size? Or is it so tightly packed that you couldn't get a toothpick in there? Could it double as a knapsack to prying eyes? (I'm still shaving at how much he could have discarded without notice and how much he had to have been carrying on/attached to his person, both on leaving the plane and, if he survived, during his ground getaway).
You cannot stuff 10,000 $20 bills in a reserve chest pack. Everything being discussed here has already been discussed at great lengths both on this thread and Dropzone. So the answers to most of your questions are already on these sites.
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R99 wrote: "Finally, in reality there is no reason to believe that Cooper survived the jump and the bundles of bills found at Tina Bar strongly suggest that he didn't. "
I go around and around about whether the bills and chards found at T Bar mean Cooper died in the jump. The jump was risky but definitely survivable. Crooks almost never throw money away and the buried shard field rules out a plant IMO.
Planting money to find and burying it briefly are two different things. Cooper didn't get his knapsack, so his ground getaway was now hindered by a big bag of money. You'd look suspicious hiking or walking into a strange town carrying a big bag of money. The briefcase emptied could have held a fraction of it, but not the full 200,000. So if he didn't have accomplices or a getaway vehicle stowed somewhere - and I honestly don't know how he could have connected with either from a random DZ unless that second sack had a radio, (and in that case he still would have had to get it to the ground with all that other stuff without damaging it) he might have had to briefly hide much of the money.
Quick question: could a dummy chest pack be forced to hold another object of any size? Or is it so tightly packed that you couldn't get a toothpick in there? Could it double as a knapsack to prying eyes? (I'm still shaving at how much he could have discarded without notice and how much he had to have been carrying on/attached to his person, both on leaving the plane and, if he survived, during his ground getaway).
You cannot stuff 10,000 $20 bills in a reserve chest pack. Everything being discussed here has already been discussed at great lengths both on this thread and Dropzone. So the answers to most of your questions are already on these sites.
The fact that ANY money was found outside its container, after Coop bailed, carries a strong chance ALL of his money was compromised somehow. The container was breached for any money to leave the container. The money did not come to Tina Bar because of Quackery.
Unless like distributing leaflets from a plane during Vietnam, Cooper stood on the stairs and distributed money to the population of Washington to send some message? ;)
The finding of money almost assures a breached container, and the question is 'when'? That could have been determined through tests which were never done. Palmer was either ignorant or asleep in his chair.
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R99 wrote: "Finally, in reality there is no reason to believe that Cooper survived the jump and the bundles of bills found at Tina Bar strongly suggest that he didn't. "
I go around and around about whether the bills and chards found at T Bar mean Cooper died in the jump. The jump was risky but definitely survivable. Crooks almost never throw money away and the buried shard field rules out a plant IMO.
Planting money to find and burying it briefly are two different things. Cooper didn't get his knapsack, so his ground getaway was now hindered by a big bag of money. You'd look suspicious hiking or walking into a strange town carrying a big bag of money. The briefcase emptied could have held a fraction of it, but not the full 200,000. So if he didn't have accomplices or a getaway vehicle stowed somewhere - and I honestly don't know how he could have connected with either from a random DZ unless that second sack had a radio, (and in that case he still would have had to get it to the ground with all that other stuff without damaging it) he might have had to briefly hide much of the money.
Quick question: could a dummy chest pack be forced to hold another object of any size? Or is it so tightly packed that you couldn't get a toothpick in there? Could it double as a knapsack to prying eyes? (I'm still shaving at how much he could have discarded without notice and how much he had to have been carrying on/attached to his person, both on leaving the plane and, if he survived, during his ground getaway).
You cannot stuff 10,000 $20 bills in a reserve chest pack. Everything being discussed here has already been discussed at great lengths both on this thread and Dropzone. So the answers to most of your questions are already on these sites.
The fact that ANY money was found outside its container, after Coop bailed, carries a strong chance ALL of his money was compromised somehow. The container was breached for any money to leave the container. The money did not come to Tina Bar because of Quackery.
Unless like distributing leaflets from a plane during Vietnam, Cooper stood on the stairs and distributed money to the population of Washington to send some message? ;)
The finding of money almost assures a breached container, and the question is 'when'? That could have been determined through tests which were never done. Palmer was either ignorant or asleep in his chair.
An excellent way to have a breached container is to do a no-pull belly flop on the bank bag at about 180 MPH. Trust me, there will be a serious hydraulic rupture of the bag under those conditions.
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R99 wrote: "Finally, in reality there is no reason to believe that Cooper survived the jump and the bundles of bills found at Tina Bar strongly suggest that he didn't. "
I go around and around about whether the bills and chards found at T Bar mean Cooper died in the jump. The jump was risky but definitely survivable. Crooks almost never throw money away and the buried shard field rules out a plant IMO.
Planting money to find and burying it briefly are two different things. Cooper didn't get his knapsack, so his ground getaway was now hindered by a big bag of money. You'd look suspicious hiking or walking into a strange town carrying a big bag of money. The briefcase emptied could have held a fraction of it, but not the full 200,000. So if he didn't have accomplices or a getaway vehicle stowed somewhere - and I honestly don't know how he could have connected with either from a random DZ unless that second sack had a radio, (and in that case he still would have had to get it to the ground with all that other stuff without damaging it) he might have had to briefly hide much of the money.
Quick question: could a dummy chest pack be forced to hold another object of any size? Or is it so tightly packed that you couldn't get a toothpick in there? Could it double as a knapsack to prying eyes? (I'm still shaving at how much he could have discarded without notice and how much he had to have been carrying on/attached to his person, both on leaving the plane and, if he survived, during his ground getaway).
The question wasn't whether he could stuff the money into a reserve chest pack - obviously not, it's too much money. The questions were whether (a) anything could be put into the reserve pack (a fraction of the money, any kind of communications device from the era, anything) and (b) whether the pack could have passed for a knapsack to untrained eyes. Neither answer would tell us if DB used it for that purpose; I just want to know if it is possible to put anything in there. Again, the question of how much he could discard without notice and how much he had to take with him is important.
I did not join this forum so that I could be constantly redirected to DZ. It's impossible to follow any thread on there due to the sheer lack of respect many of the commentators showed each other and the incessant bickering. Moreover, a lot of what was on DZ was posted before the FBI docs were available. From what I DID see on the DZ, though, and from what I've seen here, these questions are very far from settled. There are just as many people stating without solid proof that DB died as there are those swearing their fortunes on DB having been one suspect or another. Both sides are guilty of confirmation bias at every turn, so I am not about to make any conclusive statements about DBC based on anyone's "gut instinct" or because it was discussed (but not solved) on another labyrinthine site that essentially dissolved into a Tower of Babel.
You cannot stuff 10,000 $20 bills in a reserve chest pack. Everything being discussed here has already been discussed at great lengths both on this thread and Dropzone. So the answers to most of your questions are already on these sites.
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Georger wrote: "The fact that ANY money was found outside its container, after Coop bailed, carries a strong chance ALL of his money was compromised somehow."
You have a point Georger. If something was violent or forceful enough to cause some of the bills to escape, what would prevent the rest from following? I don't think he had isolated cargo compartments.
And R 99 is right, impact at terminal velocity would breach most loaded carry bags.
Ah that damn T Bar money. It just messes up so many otherwise plausible DBC theories.
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R99 wrote: "Finally, in reality there is no reason to believe that Cooper survived the jump and the bundles of bills found at Tina Bar strongly suggest that he didn't. "
I go around and around about whether the bills and chards found at T Bar mean Cooper died in the jump. The jump was risky but definitely survivable. Crooks almost never throw money away and the buried shard field rules out a plant IMO.
Planting money to find and burying it briefly are two different things. Cooper didn't get his knapsack, so his ground getaway was now hindered by a big bag of money. You'd look suspicious hiking or walking into a strange town carrying a big bag of money. The briefcase emptied could have held a fraction of it, but not the full 200,000. So if he didn't have accomplices or a getaway vehicle stowed somewhere - and I honestly don't know how he could have connected with either from a random DZ unless that second sack had a radio, (and in that case he still would have had to get it to the ground with all that other stuff without damaging it) he might have had to briefly hide much of the money.
Quick question: could a dummy chest pack be forced to hold another object of any size? Or is it so tightly packed that you couldn't get a toothpick in there? Could it double as a knapsack to prying eyes? (I'm still shaving at how much he could have discarded without notice and how much he had to have been carrying on/attached to his person, both on leaving the plane and, if he survived, during his ground getaway).
You cannot stuff 10,000 $20 bills in a reserve chest pack. Everything being discussed here has already been discussed at great lengths both on this thread and Dropzone. So the answers to most of your questions are already on these sites.
The fact that ANY money was found outside its container, after Coop bailed, carries a strong chance ALL of his money was compromised somehow. The container was breached for any money to leave the container. The money did not come to Tina Bar because of Quackery.
Unless like distributing leaflets from a plane during Vietnam, Cooper stood on the stairs and distributed money to the population of Washington to send some message? ;)
The finding of money almost assures a breached container, and the question is 'when'? That could have been determined through tests which were never done. Palmer was either ignorant or asleep in his chair.
An excellent way to have a breached container is to do a no-pull belly flop on the bank bag at about 180 MPH. Trust me, there will be a serious hydraulic rupture of the bag under those conditions.
However the money was free of a container, when did money arrive at Tina Bar? The year? Tests have always been available thar could (help) determine that. Palmer chose to do no testing. Instead, he opted to rely on his experience in judging strata, but that only lead to a conundrum and arguments with FBI agents, about '1 year', '2 years', 'well maybe several years', ... which as Lynn noted we knew clear back in 2007 at DZ.
99% of our time has been spent in waiting and reading people's assertions and theories. And now Brucie wants to know everyone's age!
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Georger wrote: "The fact that ANY money was found outside its container, after Coop bailed, carries a strong chance ALL of his money was compromised somehow."
You have a point Georger. If something was violent or forceful enough to cause some of the bills to escape, what would prevent the rest from following? I don't think he had isolated cargo compartments.
And R 99 is right, impact at terminal velocity would breach most loaded carry bags.
Ah that damn T Bar money. It just messes up so many otherwise plausible DBC theories.
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R99 is correct. That is why Tom and Alan (a materials destruction expert) looked for signs of 'stress'. They found no telltale signs of stress. ? (compression, distortion, tearing, etc attributable to a catastrophic event.)
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I wonder what the money bag looked like with McNally?
Also, notice how easy he found valuable information...
One thousand feet above the Boeing 727, from the vantage point of a military surveillance plane, an FBI agent observed a small, dark object falling rapidly from the rear hatch.
McNally dropped like a bullet, feet-first, and the first thing he perceived was the wind punching his flight goggles into his eye sockets. In seconds, the goggles were violently ripped from his head. McNally threw out his arms, bringing his body parallel to the ground as he began counting down from twenty in his mind. Basing his calculations on the formula for terminal velocity — which he'd learned in a library physics textbook — McNally figured that this would be enough time to slow his fall to a safe speed. If he pulled the chute too early, he knew, the air would shred the canopy like tissue paper.
The time came to test his math. McNally fumbled for the ripcord with his right hand, but he made the mistake of leaving his left arm outstretched. Instead of producing the serene, deliberate movements of an experienced skydiver, the wind took hold of his arm and slammed the hijacker into a furious spin.
In the midst of the chaos, the parachute exploded out of the chest harness and ejected its spring-loaded contents directly into McNally's face. Blinded and hurting, he managed to grab hold of the shroud lines above him. He tugged hard, and was rewarded with resistance as the canopy filled with air.
McNally was going to live after all. His hand strayed down to his left thigh, hoping to be reassured by its half-million dollars.
He could only look down in horror. The mailbag was twenty feet below him, and getting smaller and smaller by the second. As if in a dream, McNally watched the fortune tumble in slow-motion, end-over-end, until it slipped below the clouds and vanished.
Added: Three days later, searchers found the full money sack and gun in fields near Peru, Ind. A fingerprint led to their man, a bruised but alive former Navy sailor named Martin J. McNally, 28, of suburban Detroit. "Wilson" had $13 in his pocket.
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Martin McNally interview....he doesn't talk about the hijacking until about 19 minutes into the video...amazingly, he doesn't remember the model of the gun....again, funny how the suspect witnesses have better memory once again :rofl:
He speaks about a lot of things...this is a valuable interview...appears to be in 7 parts...
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM0MPtSuYJI
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Truly amazing stuff told by McNally..several attempts prior to the actual hijacking. he cased airports, and got the flight schedules very business like with his crimes...I'm only on part 2....he jokes about buying a round trip ticket stating United owes him $35 since he only went one way :rofl:
Helost the money when the chute deployed..on his way down he was already planing another hijacking...
He also used an alias of Robert Wilson..he said this after talking about someone he knew that was a great counterfeiter, one of the best.....this guy gave him blank birther certificates...Melvin Wilson popped right into my head, so I notified Vicki...
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Whew. This is great stuff. Minute-by-minute account. Actually a blow-by-blow retelling. I'm one-hour into it, on "Part 4."
Martin was paroled, not sure when, despite be sentenced to two life sentences for the hijacking. He's a weird guy. You can definitely see the cold, criminal, violent streak in him. A strange mix of savvy, clever, disorganized, bold and wacky. A surprising amount of planning went into the crime. Very different story than the one we got from media accounts at the time of the skyjacking. Google has a lot more info, too.
His interviewers are Gary Jenkins and Aaron Ginert, from Gangland Wire - True Crime Stories.
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wait till the sheriff gives him a ride :congrats:
He got out in 2010
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I wonder what the money bag looked like with McNally?
Also, notice how easy he found valuable information...
One thousand feet above the Boeing 727, from the vantage point of a military surveillance plane, an FBI agent observed a small, dark object falling rapidly from the rear hatch.
McNally dropped like a bullet, feet-first, and the first thing he perceived was the wind punching his flight goggles into his eye sockets. In seconds, the goggles were violently ripped from his head. McNally threw out his arms, bringing his body parallel to the ground as he began counting down from twenty in his mind. Basing his calculations on the formula for terminal velocity — which he'd learned in a library physics textbook — McNally figured that this would be enough time to slow his fall to a safe speed. If he pulled the chute too early, he knew, the air would shred the canopy like tissue paper.
The time came to test his math. McNally fumbled for the ripcord with his right hand, but he made the mistake of leaving his left arm outstretched. Instead of producing the serene, deliberate movements of an experienced skydiver, the wind took hold of his arm and slammed the hijacker into a furious spin.
In the midst of the chaos, the parachute exploded out of the chest harness and ejected its spring-loaded contents directly into McNally's face. Blinded and hurting, he managed to grab hold of the shroud lines above him. He tugged hard, and was rewarded with resistance as the canopy filled with air.
McNally was going to live after all. His hand strayed down to his left thigh, hoping to be reassured by its half-million dollars.
He could only look down in horror. The mailbag was twenty feet below him, and getting smaller and smaller by the second. As if in a dream, McNally watched the fortune tumble in slow-motion, end-over-end, until it slipped below the clouds and vanished.
Added: Three days later, searchers found the full money sack and gun in fields near Peru, Ind. A fingerprint led to their man, a bruised but alive former Navy sailor named Martin J. McNally, 28, of suburban Detroit. "Wilson" had $13 in his pocket.
Good post! :congrats:
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I wonder what the money bag looked like with McNally?
Also, notice how easy he found valuable information...
One thousand feet above the Boeing 727, from the vantage point of a military surveillance plane, an FBI agent observed a small, dark object falling rapidly from the rear hatch.
McNally dropped like a bullet, feet-first, and the first thing he perceived was the wind punching his flight goggles into his eye sockets. In seconds, the goggles were violently ripped from his head. McNally threw out his arms, bringing his body parallel to the ground as he began counting down from twenty in his mind. Basing his calculations on the formula for terminal velocity — which he'd learned in a library physics textbook — McNally figured that this would be enough time to slow his fall to a safe speed. If he pulled the chute too early, he knew, the air would shred the canopy like tissue paper.
The time came to test his math. McNally fumbled for the ripcord with his right hand, but he made the mistake of leaving his left arm outstretched. Instead of producing the serene, deliberate movements of an experienced skydiver, the wind took hold of his arm and slammed the hijacker into a furious spin.
In the midst of the chaos, the parachute exploded out of the chest harness and ejected its spring-loaded contents directly into McNally's face. Blinded and hurting, he managed to grab hold of the shroud lines above him. He tugged hard, and was rewarded with resistance as the canopy filled with air.
McNally was going to live after all. His hand strayed down to his left thigh, hoping to be reassured by its half-million dollars.
He could only look down in horror. The mailbag was twenty feet below him, and getting smaller and smaller by the second. As if in a dream, McNally watched the fortune tumble in slow-motion, end-over-end, until it slipped below the clouds and vanished.
Added: Three days later, searchers found the full money sack and gun in fields near Peru, Ind. A fingerprint led to their man, a bruised but alive former Navy sailor named Martin J. McNally, 28, of suburban Detroit. "Wilson" had $13 in his pocket.
Shutter are you talking about the fellow who jumped from the over wing escape hatch of a DC-10, rather than a 727, over Indiana? It seems that the Captain of the DC-10 was asked to slow the plane down but speeded up instead. The jump was made at about 300 MPH and the hijacker lost most of his clothes. The money was found in a farmer's field the next day.
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If he died, however, someone was suddenly missing. A car went abandoned. A renter stopped paying. A mortgage went into default. Utility bills stacked up unpaid. A friend or relative disappeared. Those things should have been noticed and tied to a possible suspect who looked even a little bit like the sketches.
That's the way I feel about it, but of course I like the story a lot more when it ends with him walking out of the woods.
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If he died, however, someone was suddenly missing. A car went abandoned. A renter stopped paying. A mortgage went into default. Utility bills stacked up unpaid. A friend or relative disappeared. Those things should have been noticed and tied to a possible suspect who looked even a little bit like the sketches.
That's the way I feel about it, but of course I like the story a lot more when it ends with him walking out of the woods.
377's remarks could also suggest that Cooper did not live in the northwest even though he was familiar with the Seattle area. Maybe Cooper had spent a lot of time out of the USA just before the hijacking.
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If he died, however, someone was suddenly missing. A car went abandoned. A renter stopped paying. A mortgage went into default. Utility bills stacked up unpaid. A friend or relative disappeared. Those things should have been noticed and tied to a possible suspect who looked even a little bit like the sketches.
That's the way I feel about it, but of course I like the story a lot more when it ends with him walking out of the woods.
377's remarks could also suggest that Cooper did not live in the northwest even though he was familiar with the Seattle area. Maybe Cooper had spent a lot of time out of the USA just before the hijacking.
No missing person ever matched the dna or prints. Ever.
No non-missing person ever matched the dna or prints. Ever.
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Shutter are you talking about the fellow who jumped from the over wing escape hatch of a DC-10, rather than a 727, over Indiana? It seems that the Captain of the DC-10 was asked to slow the plane down but speeded up instead. The jump was made at about 300 MPH and the hijacker lost most of his clothes. The money was found in a farmer's field the next day.
I think you might have Paul Cini and Martin McNally mixed-up, Robert. Shutter and these podcasts discuss the DB Cooper copycat, Martin McNally. On June 23, 1972, he hijacked American Airlines Flight 119, a 727.
The exact airplane Paul Cini stole back on November 13, 1971 is unclear. Most reports claim it was a DC-8, which has a side hatch in the rear fuselage. But some reports, especially GG's radio commentary, claim the plane was a DC-9, which had a rear stair. When the DC-9 became the MD-80 I don't know, but I think the later designation is what this plane is generally known as.
Lost his clothes? Hmmm. I haven't heard of anyone losing his duds. McNally confirmed that he figures the place was going 300 mph when he jumped. Heady, too.
I've never heard what McCoy's plane was doing, or at what altitude.
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If he died, however, someone was suddenly missing. A car went abandoned. A renter stopped paying. A mortgage went into default. Utility bills stacked up unpaid. A friend or relative disappeared. Those things should have been noticed and tied to a possible suspect who looked even a little bit like the sketches.
That's the way I feel about it, but of course I like the story a lot more when it ends with him walking out of the woods.
Or walking back into his hidden enclave. A few months ago we had an interesting discussion here about the various communities that exist in the United States that are outside the societal mainstream. I would love to hear what your thoughts might be about the camouflage capacities of:
1. Gypsy/Roma encampments.
2. Mafia compounds.
3. Cloistered religious communities.
4. Hobo/homeless communities.
5. Retired military living in the suburbs surrounding their active duty bases.
6. Indian reservations.
7. Recluses, such as the Unabomber or folks down in Slab City, California
8. Expats
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If he died, however, someone was suddenly missing. A car went abandoned. A renter stopped paying. A mortgage went into default. Utility bills stacked up unpaid. A friend or relative disappeared. Those things should have been noticed and tied to a possible suspect who looked even a little bit like the sketches.
That's the way I feel about it, but of course I like the story a lot more when it ends with him walking out of the woods.
Or walking back into his hidden enclave. A few months ago we had an interesting discussion here about the various communities that exist in the United States that are outside the societal mainstream. I would love to hear what your thoughts might be about the camouflage capacities of:
1. Gypsy/Roma encampments.
2. Mafia compounds.
3. Cloistered religious communities.
4. Hobo/homeless communities.
5. Retired military living in the suburbs surrounding their active duty bases.
6. Indian reservations.
7. Recluses, such as the Unabomber or folks down in Slab City, California
8. Expats
On what basis? To what end? We could also discuss the Periodic Table! And then the Molecular table.
You live in a hidden enclave sneering at the world. How does that apply to DB Cooper?
You are the Teacher. You must tell us what to do, and what materials to bring to class!
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Shutter are you talking about the fellow who jumped from the over wing escape hatch of a DC-10, rather than a 727, over Indiana? It seems that the Captain of the DC-10 was asked to slow the plane down but speeded up instead. The jump was made at about 300 MPH and the hijacker lost most of his clothes. The money was found in a farmer's field the next day.
No,this was a 727...this hijacking used several 727's..a car got on the runway and rammed the plane trying to stop the hijacking.
even though reports say McNally lost his pants when he jumped is incorrect according to McNally. he claims to have tossed his clothes out. this makes more sense when you look at the map showing where things were found. I have spoken in the past about the debris field being suspect.
Lost his clothes? Hmmm. I haven't heard of anyone losing his duds. McNally confirmed that he figures the place was going 300 mph when he jumped. Heady, too.
several sites claim McNally lost his pants when he jumped from the plane...
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McNally seems to be cool as a cucumber..he took a nap in the dropzone. he speaks of just missing two fences with barbed wire on them..he sat on the steps looking below, and then cloud cover below formed causing him to lose visual with the ground but jumped anyway...he didn't start a countdown, he just estimated the time to deploy.
while walking away from the DZ. a sheriff stopped him on the road, asked him some questions and ended up giving him a ride into town. must of been sheriff Israel :rofl: the hijacking was brought up while driving into town..prior to the sheriff, McNally looked at plates while cars were passing to find out where he was...
Time should be taken to listen to this interview..if you really want to understand a criminal, or a hijackers mind..this is critical information..
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If he died, however, someone was suddenly missing. A car went abandoned. A renter stopped paying. A mortgage went into default. Utility bills stacked up unpaid. A friend or relative disappeared. Those things should have been noticed and tied to a possible suspect who looked even a little bit like the sketches.
That's the way I feel about it, but of course I like the story a lot more when it ends with him walking out of the woods.
377's remarks could also suggest that Cooper did not live in the northwest even though he was familiar with the Seattle area. Maybe Cooper had spent a lot of time out of the USA just before the hijacking.
all of this can be troubling to say the least, yes, he could of been from outside the U.S. explains no missing body. he could of been a loner, no car, no bills etc. the most troubling is money showing up miles from where the plane was plotted..
McCoy made the jump with no problem...McNally had issue's but was going much faster, but still survived. statistics seem to be in Cooper's favor with survival. I still can't say one way or the other. something should have been found by now. McCoy was experienced, McNally was not, but we have two out of two making it..
The FBI will admit they really don't know exactly where he jumped. this is troubling..search teams stated many area's had thick brush and couldn't see very far in front of them..where they in the right area? if the flight path is correct one could only say he got away...the no pull would have given results with finding his body easily...(if the path is correct)
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If he died, however, someone was suddenly missing. A car went abandoned. A renter stopped paying. A mortgage went into default. Utility bills stacked up unpaid. A friend or relative disappeared. Those things should have been noticed and tied to a possible suspect who looked even a little bit like the sketches.
That's the way I feel about it, but of course I like the story a lot more when it ends with him walking out of the woods.
377's remarks could also suggest that Cooper did not live in the northwest even though he was familiar with the Seattle area. Maybe Cooper had spent a lot of time out of the USA just before the hijacking.
No missing person ever matched the dna or prints. Ever.
No non-missing person ever matched the dna or prints. Ever.
If Cooper's DNA or prints were not in any USA database (assuming those databases were complete, and they were not in 1971) then it suggests that Cooper did not come from the USA.
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With the McNally case, a farmer did find the bag of money (intact) he didn't touch it..the airlines wanted to give him a $10,000 reward, he refused saying it should be more...he ended up taking the money but according to McNally, it destroyed his family..
The plane was traveling at 300 mph..
He searched out the best fit airport for his crime...others had to much security so he picked Lambert..TWA had metal detectors but nobody was monitoring them...
He said he originally wanted to bring extra magazines for the weapon but was too much weight in the briefcase..he turned a rifle into a pistol so it would fit..he also had a small caliber handgun in his pocket..
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If he died, however, someone was suddenly missing. A car went abandoned. A renter stopped paying. A mortgage went into default. Utility bills stacked up unpaid. A friend or relative disappeared. Those things should have been noticed and tied to a possible suspect who looked even a little bit like the sketches.
That's the way I feel about it, but of course I like the story a lot more when it ends with him walking out of the woods.
377's remarks could also suggest that Cooper did not live in the northwest even though he was familiar with the Seattle area. Maybe Cooper had spent a lot of time out of the USA just before the hijacking.
No missing person ever matched the dna or prints. Ever.
No non-missing person ever matched the dna or prints. Ever.
If Cooper's DNA or prints were not in any USA database (assuming those databases were complete, and they were not in 1971) then it suggests that Cooper did not come from the USA.
We know virtually nothing about what data bases were available and searched. Files mention a folio of prints that were being used for suspect comparison but the number and nature of those prints is unclear .. one print is even described as possibly a thumb or palm print?
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I agree with the Shut - the YouTube videos on McNally are exceptionally informing as to the mind of a criminal and a skyjacker. It's not always a pretty listen, though. In fact, it is downright tough. One-hour's worth was all I could handle. I heard the whole story through the landing in the farm field in Indiana and the helo flying overhead while he was sleeping in his parachute in a forest.
The interviewers are also two guys who are pretty skeazy themselves.
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I agree with the Shut - the YouTube videos on McNally are exceptionally informing as to the mind of a criminal and a skyjacker. It's not always a pretty listen, though. In fact, it is downright tough. The interviewers are also two guys who are pretty skeazy themselves. They LOVE talking with criminals! I'd hate to hear one of their interviews with a sexual predator. It would be downright ugly.
mind of a criminal and a skyjacker
Is there only one kind? 8) Is there a standard head shape?
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I agree with the Shut - the YouTube videos on McNally are exceptionally informing as to the mind of a criminal and a skyjacker. It's not always a pretty listen, though. In fact, it is downright tough. The interviewers are also two guys who are pretty skeazy themselves. They LOVE talking with criminals! I'd hate to hear one of their interviews with a sexual predator. It would be downright ugly.
mind of a criminal and a skyjacker
Is there only one kind? 8)
Nope. Why do you ask?
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criminals don't usually associate themselves with predator's..you are trying to mix everything into one bowl believing they would enjoy such an interview...the only place they accept predators is Hollywood...
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I agree with the Shut - the YouTube videos on McNally are exceptionally informing as to the mind of a criminal and a skyjacker. It's not always a pretty listen, though. In fact, it is downright tough. The interviewers are also two guys who are pretty skeazy themselves. They LOVE talking with criminals! I'd hate to hear one of their interviews with a sexual predator. It would be downright ugly.
mind of a criminal and a skyjacker
Is there only one kind? 8)
Nope. Why do you ask?
You posted so fast I hadnt finished the post - go back and try again.
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I agree with the Shut - the YouTube videos on McNally are exceptionally informing as to the mind of a criminal and a skyjacker. It's not always a pretty listen, though. In fact, it is downright tough. One-hour's worth was all I could handle. I heard the whole story through the landing in the farm field in Indiana and the helo flying overhead while he was sleeping in his parachute in a forest.
The interviewers are also two guys who are pretty skeazy themselves.
what is that you wish to hear..how productive he was in the community? these guys are criminals, not school teachers. this is what they do..if you have trouble listening to people like him, you are in the wrong business..
People want to believe Cooper is some sort of a saint..he threatened to blow up a plane full of people..you might not want to interview Cooper (if found) either once you hear his story..I seriously doubt Cooper attempted this because of airline strikes..or just plain pissed off at the world...criminals are dumb in all sorts of ways...a serial killer always feels superior over others..
I listened to all 7 parts..nothing "disturbed" me what so ever? I've read, and seen far worse than this guy..if anything can be credited to McNally, it would be his piece of kindness allowing everyone off the plane except one person that volunteered..he watched a woman who refused to leave her husband when he told the crew to release the women and children. he then changed his mind and wanted everyone off the plane except one volunteer..he was very dedicated in the mission. he pointed his weapon at a passenger who was staring at him..he made sure to let him know he meant business..these guys are not doing this as an act..
These are criminal acts...not a daycare center operator....
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I understand.
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I'm curious, what was so bad that caused you to stop listening to the interview? I found McNally interesting. you might even say typical when it comes to a criminal..he fooled me...I seen a young kid in trouble, but I never really looked into his case to see the real McNally..that could very well be the problem with Cooper..McNally got exactly what he deserved..
McNally might not be truthful in all his statements...criminals lie..he seemed sincere, but so did Ted Bundy...
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I'm curious, what was so bad that caused you to stop listening to the interview? I found McNally interesting. you might even say typical when it comes to a criminal..he fooled me...I seen a young kid in trouble, but I never really looked into his case to see the real McNally..that could very well be the problem with Cooper..McNally got exactly what he deserved..
McNally might not be truthful in all his statements...criminals lie..he seemed sincere, but so did Ted Bundy...
There was a general feeling of creepiness about McNally, the interviewers, and the podcast. It was hard for me to listen, to accept that they were saying. Yes, McNally was honest and transparent, but he also presented a morally unhealthy perspective.
I never heard him apologize or recognize the anxiety he caused among so many. He presented a strange detachment - and so did the hosts. Their advertisements for cruising all the mafia hotspots in Chicago - seeing where the crimes happened and how they were conducted - felt creepy, too.
None of this occurred when I spoke with Robb Heady, nor when he came to the WSHM and Ariel.
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Shut, do any of the podcasts describe how and why McNally was released from prison?
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Shut, do any of the podcasts describe how and why McNally was released from prison?
I would have to go back to the first part..I skipped through a lot that wasn't related to Cooper...good behavior might of done the trick..the older you get the less trouble you cause in prison..I'll see what I can find...
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By 2009, McNally decided he'd had enough parole hearings to last a lifetime. No more, he told his case manager. Each previous hearing — about a half-dozen throughout the last three decades — had ended with the parole board restating the obvious: McNally's past crimes made him a risk to the public.
But after a miscommunication with a case manager, McNally was nevertheless roused on the morning of July 18, 2009, and told he was expected at a parole hearing the next day. The inmate grumbled, but an order was an order.
The meeting seemed normal enough. The board quizzed him about his record and his activities in prison. By now, McNally had collected about 30 years of generally good behavior. Like Trapnell, McNally had been affected by the 1978 caper and its sobering aftermath. He wrote to his mother about changing her will. "Don't leave me anything," he told her. "I'm never going to get out of prison."
Yet McNally left the parole hearing in a state of dumbfounded bliss, and he walked back to his cell, grinning ear to ear. Against all expectations, he'd been given a release date. The board had evaluated his 37 years in prison and deemed him capable of handling parole.
Six months later, on Jan. 27, 2010, McNally walked out of the federal prison in Atwater, California, and hopped on a Greyhound bus. He initially requested to be settled in Tennessee to live with an old prison buddy, but that plan had been denied. McNally had no interest in returning to his estranged family in Michigan.
He still hasn't set foot on a plane..to paranoid, says McNally...
Released from prison Jan. 27, 2010
Released from parole Oct. 4, 2010
I guess they decided it wasn't worth keeping an eye on the old guy :chr2:
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I'm curious, what was so bad that caused you to stop listening to the interview? I found McNally interesting. you might even say typical when it comes to a criminal..he fooled me...I seen a young kid in trouble, but I never really looked into his case to see the real McNally..that could very well be the problem with Cooper..McNally got exactly what he deserved..
McNally might not be truthful in all his statements...criminals lie..he seemed sincere, but so did Ted Bundy...
There was a general feeling of creepiness about McNally, the interviewers, and the podcast. It was hard for me to listen, to accept that they were saying. Yes, McNally was honest and transparent, but he also presented a morally unhealthy perspective.
I never heard him apologize or recognize the anxiety he caused among so many. He presented a strange detachment - and so did the hosts. Their advertisements for cruising all the mafia hotspots in Chicago - seeing where the crimes happened and how they were conducted - felt creepy, too.
None of this occurred when I spoke with Robb Heady, nor when he came to the WSHM and Ariel.
was Robb a career criminal?
McNally was a common criminal..he has paid his debt, so I doubt he will be apologizing anytime soon. it was just another day at the office for him..not all criminals are like this, but most of them are..that's why they can't be trusted...you have to remember these are Federal crimes committed..McCoy was similar to McNally..I don't know much about Heady, but it appears he was in a different league all together...
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A career criminal has no remorse, he doesn't care what happened. the only thing he's sorry for is getting caught. remember that!
they have nothing to lose, and will take anything they can from you without regret, and by any means..
McNally doesn't appear to be a man full of bluffs. in fact, he would call you out first..that's how I read him...cold, perhaps. he had what it takes to attempt something like this...
Reading about Heady, it appears he wasn't a career criminal. as I mentioned, he's in a different league..he suffers from PTSD and obviously depression...he has a conscience, the other clowns don't..
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Thanks, Shut.
Also, I concur with your assessment of a career criminal.
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McNally had an accomplice.. who was also charged and convicted.
Walter John Petlikowsky
http://cdm.sos.mo.gov/cdm/ref/collection/colmo4/id/76221
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It appears that Cooper was the father of this category of skyjacking...only one comes close to his age..
McCoy was 29
McNally was 28
Heady was 22
Paul Cini was 27
Garrette Trapnell was 38
Richard LaPoint was 33
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It appears that Lapoint falls into the same category as Heady...
LaPoint "had just gotten out of Vietnam. He'd never jumped out of an airplane before. He was a very strange guy" with a sometimes shaky memory and occasional explosive temper, recalled his court-appointed defense attorney, Harry Sterling of Denver.
"He thanked me. Said I got him out of a jam he was dumb enough to get into," he said.
The exploits of Cooper and LaPoint did result in one positive thing, Sterling said.
"Right afterward they put up security gates at airports."
Trapnell hijacking...FBI negotiators were able to free the prisoners and have Oswald surrender with no injuries or deaths. The bomb that was strapped to her chest later emerged to be railroad flares wired to what appeared to be a doorbell.
photo below of railroad flares..was there a large railroad depot around Vancouver? take the spike off any you have perfect red colored "dynamite" no markings...also the manufactures box..
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This is as real as it gets...
..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7a5D3sMJKM
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You're on fire, today, shutter, this is awesome stuff. I promised I was gonna hunker down to my fiction but am down the rabbit hole again. :good post:
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No experience required.....
Driving through Detroit in January 1972, Martin McNally listened with growing interest to a radio news report of a two-month-old hijacking in the Pacific Northwest. Shortly before Thanksgiving, an unidentified man had commandeered a Boeing 727 after taking off from Portland International Airport.
According to the report, the hijacker had ordered the plane to land and subsequently demanded a parachute and $200,000. Upon receipt, the hostages were released, but the hijacker kept the crew and ordered the plane to take off once again. Forty-five minutes into flight, the man jumped from the lowered stairwell at the rear of plane. Both hijacker and cash had seemingly disappeared without a trace.
In the coming months, McNally would spend hours poring through library books on parachutes and skydiving. An idea took root in his mind. The hijacker on the radio — soon mythologized as "D.B. Cooper" — had demonstrated an effective strategy for air piracy, and it seemed a much easier task than knocking over an armored truck or a bank.
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No experience required.....
Driving through Detroit in January 1972, Martin McNally listened with growing interest to a radio news report of a two-month-old hijacking in the Pacific Northwest. Shortly before Thanksgiving, an unidentified man had commandeered a Boeing 727 after taking off from Portland International Airport.
According to the report, the hijacker had ordered the plane to land and subsequently demanded a parachute and $200,000. Upon receipt, the hostages were released, but the hijacker kept the crew and ordered the plane to take off once again. Forty-five minutes into flight, the man jumped from the lowered stairwell at the rear of plane. Both hijacker and cash had seemingly disappeared without a trace.
In the coming months, McNally would spend hours poring through library books on parachutes and skydiving. An idea took root in his mind. The hijacker on the radio — soon mythologized as "D.B. Cooper" — had demonstrated an effective strategy for air piracy, and it seemed a much easier task than knocking over an armored truck or a bank.
Just want to issue a caution: Im not sure how far one can go extrapolating from a few other hijackers to Cooper. One can build a short list of things other hijackers did that Cooper did not do, and visa-versa.
Likewise one can draw up a short list of things Cooper did not do compared to things a Navy Seal would have done - like setting up a defensive perimeter, which Cooper did not do. Somewhere in all of these comparisons would be the real Cooper vs. others. Its clear Cooper had a plan. The question is 'what kind of a plan' modeled on what? I have always said I feel Cooper was very open in his transactions allowing people on and off the plane. Even requiring Tina to go and off the plane. I think today a swat team would seize that opportunity, and in today's world of highly trained responders a savvy hijacker might not give the same opportunities Cooper gave, or he would be dead.
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Lots of people feel the need to believe Cooper was some sort of special ops, or a highly skilled pilot, or skydiver. I highlight area's showing that it can be rather simple to gain information to try and pull off the skyjacking. I've even wondered if Cooper was a frequent flyer and watched the stairs come down on a tarmac and put two and two together..you could walk right into a mechanics hanger back then..
I'm not trying to compare the two vs explain how easy one was done with little knowledge. the 302's show people doing this as well. McNally did copy the idea, but the original could of be done in a similar way.."just enough to get himself in trouble"
the video was posted to show how real a hijacking is..Cooper was not a hero and played a dangerous game just as the others did that followed him..Heady was remorseful, so he gets patted on the back, McNally didn't show remorse and is marked evil, and yet they all threatened the lives of others....
Correct, I believe they would storm the plane today..just as they did in 1994. criminals today, most of them have zero remorse..
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Lots of people feel the need to believe Cooper was some sort of special ops, or a highly skilled pilot, or skydiver. I highlight area's showing that it can be rather simple to gain information to try and pull off the skyjacking. I've even wondered if Cooper was a frequent flyer and watched the stairs come down on a tarmac and put two and two together..you could walk right into a mechanics hanger back then..
I'm not trying to compare the two vs explain how easy one was done with little knowledge. the 302's show people doing this as well. McNally did copy the idea, but the original could of be done in a similar way.."just enough to get himself in trouble"
the video was posted to show how real a hijacking is..Cooper was not a hero and played a dangerous game just as the others did that followed him..Heady was remorseful, so he gets patted on the back, McNally didn't show remorse and is marked evil, and yet they all threatened the lives of others....
Correct, I believe they would storm the plane today..just as they did in 1994. criminals today, most of them have zero remorse..
That hijacking video was jaw-dropping. Once again am reminded of how DBC's bomb changed the game from what it would have been if he were just carrying a gun. Was he the first hijacker to use a bomb rather than another type of weapon? I do recall other planes having been blown up, but were the planes taken initially with bombs or were the crews at gunpoint? Recall several being blown up in like Cuba after the hostages were off the plane. I think georger's right - he had a plan, but we don't know what kind - military, copycat, individual.
I also think shutter's right - he could have just been very good with the research. It's the little things that pull me away from that theory - like his knowing what generally only the crew knew, like where the oxygen was kept on board. To me that's something you wouldn't know offhand, whereas as shutter mentioned, you could observe the 727 steps being lowered and have a dig into how they worked. He did know they could be lowered before take-off without major damage, which is not a fact he could have observed during regular travel - that wouldn't have been done on any civilian flight he may have been on, if the pilots of 305 didn't even know it could be. I don't think he was a complete amateur; but as he could have been an expert in only one or two fields, it doesn't mean he knew everything involved in the jump. He'd have to have researched some stuff. He may have known airplanes, or jumping, or air service, or military ops, or FBI procedures, but it's unlikely he was expert in all those things. We don't know his experiential knowledge vs what he could have learned from research.
He of course also "feels" different from other skyjackers, because those guys all got caught, so stuff was known about them beyond what happened during their incidents. With Cooper, ALL we have is his on-board persona - largely cool and collected, occasionally amused or irritated, never rude or cruel, given to a few hackneyed movie gangster phrases like "no funny stuff/business" and "do the job". A dude in a so-so suit with fine mannerisms and no need for parachute instruction. My feeling on the guy - and of course I could be way off - is that he had some airplane and parachuting experience and knowledge, but was not a career criminal. Which I guess is not really helpful because that's most of the suspect list. ;)
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I'm not quite sure which thread this question goes to so am putting it here: Were any of the forum members or guests IN Portland in or around 1971? Can any of you describe the interior of the airport beyond what has already been posted? As for Portland itself, was there a hub, or was it the kind of city where the action is more spread out? What hotels and motels were nearest the airport? Were there any AT the airport?
This is for my own fiction work, so completely self-serving. I'm backing away from post-jump speculation as my own story mainly concerns itself with events up to the jump. I'm brainstorming on where DBC may have been prior. It's possible he got off one plane, strolled through the airport and simply bought a one-way ticket to Seattle without any real link to Portland himself outside the airport. The problem with this idea is obvious: he'd have had to risk a second checkpoint, plus travelling with the "bomb" on an airplane he couldn't jump from. Possibly a small risk, but an entirely unnecessary one, so indicates he probably did stay a bit of time in Portland proper.
Now, having said that, there was no inexplicably abandoned car at the airport or the environs to link to Cooper. No useful leads from taxi drivers or desk clerks. Was there a bus to the airport? Did it stop at particular hotels/motels? He could have waited for hours, even overnight at the airport without notice, DEPENDING ON THE AIRPORT. Or he could have had an accomplice (in the know or just a friend dropping a bro off for his flight) get him to the airport, but if not in the know, that person never made the connection to Cooper. I have no real sense of how large Portland airport was in 1971 so this is where it unravels for me personally; could you hide out there without notice in 1971? Any info here would help. I'd like the story to be as authentic as possible as far as locales of the era go.
Last point: if he did spend a spell in Portland, which seems likely, he'd also have likely gotten his "supplies" in that area - possibly his entire outfit, but at minimum the road flares/dynamite and the battery, likely the cheapo briefcase/attache case (they are technically different sizes; an attache case is considerably thinner), and possibly the cigarettes and book of matches. The cigarettes are too common to have been of any use, but I did look into the availability of dynamite in the area. IF the explosives were real, his best bet would have likely been some kind of farming supply place, as dynamite was sometimes used to remove obstructions to farming, etc. Road flares are more common, but still sold at a limited number of places - sporting stores/departments, marine shops, supply stores for emergency crews possibly. I'd give anything to have a copy of the 1970-71 Portland Yellow Pages. Anyone in Portland, I'd pay for just photocopies of certain sections. Thanks in advance to anyone who can provide anything.
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Seaplane with an aft ventral airstair? Yup. A PBY Catalina was modified to include one. See photo.
http://www.columbiapacificaviation.com/trainingsalesetc/aircraftforsale.html
377
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... I have no real sense of how large Portland airport was in 1971 so this is where it unravels for me personally; could you hide out there without notice in 1971? Any info here would help. I'd like the story to be as authentic as possible as far as locales of the era go....
PDX was the wide-open spaces, as I understand from Bill Rollins. Nor perimeter fencing, no perimeter road, vegetation along the Columbia to conceal a Zodiac in, etc. I suggest you contact him. He hasn't posted here in about a year, but his PM might still work.
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... I have no real sense of how large Portland airport was in 1971 so this is where it unravels for me personally; could you hide out there without notice in 1971? Any info here would help. I'd like the story to be as authentic as possible as far as locales of the era go....
PDX was the wide-open spaces, as I understand from Bill Rollins. Nor perimeter fencing, no perimeter road, vegetation along the Columbia to conceal a Zodiac in, etc. I suggest you contact him. He hasn't posted here in about a year, but his PM might still work.
What is "wide open spaces"? Arctic tundra? Brazilian jungle? Lemon Twist Lounge dance floor? Your trailer storage closet? What are you talking about and what do you mean by "wide open spaces"? Let the secret go and tell-all! :-*
Oh! And does this mean Cooper liked chocolate pudding or vanilla? It matters.
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... I have no real sense of how large Portland airport was in 1971 so this is where it unravels for me personally; could you hide out there without notice in 1971? Any info here would help. I'd like the story to be as authentic as possible as far as locales of the era go....
PDX was the wide-open spaces, as I understand from Bill Rollins. Nor perimeter fencing, no perimeter road, vegetation along the Columbia to conceal a Zodiac in, etc. I suggest you contact him. He hasn't posted here in about a year, but his PM might still work.
Bruce,
Perimeter fences were mandatory at an airport such as PDX in 1971. And there is just about 100 percent certainty that there was also a perimeter road running along that fence.
In 1937, during her takeoff from Lae, Amelia Earhart barely cleared the airport perimeter fence and was so low that the downwash from her relatively small aircraft kicked up dust from the perimeter road which was just outside the fence.
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Georger wrote: "Oh! And does this mean Cooper liked chocolate pudding or vanilla? It matters."
Vanilla. Titanium dioxide is used in small amounts and he was known to dribble.
Bismuth citrate is used in hair coloring products. Bismuth oxychloride is used in eye cosmetics.
https://www.fda.gov/ForIndustry/ColorAdditives/ColorAdditiveInventories/ucm115641.htm
377
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... I have no real sense of how large Portland airport was in 1971 so this is where it unravels for me personally; could you hide out there without notice in 1971? Any info here would help. I'd like the story to be as authentic as possible as far as locales of the era go....
PDX was the wide-open spaces, as I understand from Bill Rollins. Nor perimeter fencing, no perimeter road, vegetation along the Columbia to conceal a Zodiac in, etc. I suggest you contact him. He hasn't posted here in about a year, but his PM might still work.
Bruce,
Perimeter fences were mandatory at an airport such as PDX in 1971. And there is just about 100 percent certainty that there was also a perimeter road running along that fence.
In 1937, during her takeoff from Lae, Amelia Earhart barely cleared the airport perimeter fence and was so low that the downwash from her relatively small aircraft kicked up dust from the perimeter road which was just outside the fence.
You may be correct, guys, but I'm just reporting what Bill Rollins told me regarding what he found on old maps.
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Georger wrote: "Oh! And does this mean Cooper liked chocolate pudding or vanilla? It matters."
Vanilla. Titanium dioxide is used in small amounts and he was known to dribble.
Bismuth citrate is used in hair coloring products. Bismuth oxychloride is used in eye cosmetics.
https://www.fda.gov/ForIndustry/ColorAdditives/ColorAdditiveInventories/ucm115641.htm
377
Good to know. For the record, though, these days I'm using lots of Zinc Oxide for a variety of rashes...
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Bruce wrote: "Good to know. For the record, though, these days I'm using lots of Zinc Oxide for a variety of rashes..."
As long as none of those rashes require Penicillin... ;)
Have a great weekend Bruce. Don't do anything rash.
377
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... I have no real sense of how large Portland airport was in 1971 so this is where it unravels for me personally; could you hide out there without notice in 1971? Any info here would help. I'd like the story to be as authentic as possible as far as locales of the era go....
PDX was the wide-open spaces, as I understand from Bill Rollins. Nor perimeter fencing, no perimeter road, vegetation along the Columbia to conceal a Zodiac in, etc. I suggest you contact him. He hasn't posted here in about a year, but his PM might still work.
Bruce,
Perimeter fences were mandatory at an airport such as PDX in 1971. And there is just about 100 percent certainty that there was also a perimeter road running along that fence.
In 1937, during her takeoff from Lae, Amelia Earhart barely cleared the airport perimeter fence and was so low that the downwash from her relatively small aircraft kicked up dust from the perimeter road which was just outside the fence.
You may be correct, guys, but I'm just reporting what Bill Rollins told me regarding what he found on old maps.
Are the Rollins maps dated prior to December 17, 1903? ???
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Bruce wrote: "Good to know. For the record, though, these days I'm using lots of Zinc Oxide for a variety of rashes..."
As long as none of those rashes require Penicillin... ;)
Have a great weekend Bruce. Don't do anything rash.
377
Nothing rash, but I may go car shopping. My sister is loaning me 5K so that I can get out in the world and makes it safe for democracy - and make some money. Hondas and Toyotas lead the quest, followed by something good at Ford or Chevy. Plus, I'm learning the ins and outs of online auctions for Public surplus. Interesting stuff.
The last time I bought a vehicle was 1993... so I'm going slow. I guess I'll watch Jo to keep amused as I digest car specs and stuff.
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Are the Rollins maps dated prior to December 17, 1903? ???
They may be. As I understand it, Bill's primary sources are Salish elders.
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Hondas and Toyotas are good choices for reliability Bruce. Don’t buy from car flippers. If the seller’s ID isn’t the same as the title pass, no matter what the story is (e.g. I’m selling it for a friend, relative etc.). If the seller can’t show proof of regular maint and oil changes pass.
Look at title history. Don’t buy anything from hurricane areas. Niced up flood cars are being sold to unwary buyers.
Get a trusted mechanic to do a thorough pre buy inspection.
End of sermon.
377
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Nothing rash, but I may go car shopping. My sister is loaning me 5K so that I can get out in the world and makes it safe for democracy - and make some money. Hondas and Toyotas lead the quest, followed by something good at Ford or Chevy. Plus, I'm learning the ins and outs of online auctions for Public surplus. Interesting stuff.
Car auctions are good for newer vehicles..buy here, pay here lots are dangerous. Carmax has some deals..I've had better luck with privately owned vehicles vs car lots. always make sure to to hook up and check the codes for hidden problems. some take the "check engine" bulb out. you should be able to get a very reliable car with that amount..take your time...
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Hondas and Toyotas are good choices for reliability Bruce. Don’t buy from car flippers. If the seller’s ID isn’t the same as the title pass, no matter what the story is (e.g. I’m selling it for a friend, relative etc.). If the seller can’t show proof of regular maint and oil changes pass.
Look at title history. Don’t buy anything from hurricane areas. Niced up flood cars are being sold to unwary buyers.
Get a trusted mechanic to do a thorough pre buy inspection.
End of sermon.
377
KEEP US UPDATED OM THE BRUCE SMITH REHAB!
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Hondas and Toyotas are good choices for reliability Bruce. Don’t buy from car flippers. If the seller’s ID isn’t the same as the title pass, no matter what the story is (e.g. I’m selling it for a friend, relative etc.). If the seller can’t show proof of regular maint and oil changes pass.
Look at title history. Don’t buy anything from hurricane areas. Niced up flood cars are being sold to unwary buyers.
Get a trusted mechanic to do a thorough pre buy inspection.
End of sermon.
377
Amen!
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I took a look on historical aerials and it goes back as far as 1951. a perimeter road can be seen...all airports have them as R99 explained..
you don't want people running around freely on the grounds..not good...
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... I have no real sense of how large Portland airport was in 1971 so this is where it unravels for me personally; could you hide out there without notice in 1971? Any info here would help. I'd like the story to be as authentic as possible as far as locales of the era go....
PDX was the wide-open spaces, as I understand from Bill Rollins. Nor perimeter fencing, no perimeter road, vegetation along the Columbia to conceal a Zodiac in, etc. I suggest you contact him. He hasn't posted here in about a year, but his PM might still work.
Thank you, I might do that, and that could be useful in the story, but I was actually wondering more about the interior of the airport? I once slept overnight after a plane delay in Vancouver airport, and it was big enough by then that if I'd wanted to stay out of sight, I could have (though it would have been even more excruciatingly boring than trying to stay awake walking around off and on). Again, this is for fictional purposes, but could a person in 1971 have hung out in Portland airport overnight, ex. prior to a flight or between flights on different days, without being noticed? (I'm not suggesting Cooper did that - it seems more likely, again, that he was in Portland for a spell, because why bring a 'bomb' onto two flights?) It may be in the Carr files or Himmelsbach's book somewhere, but I'm also curious to know if they looked into places where dynamite/road flares could be bought in the Portland area.
From what I can find, Portland seems to have changed a great deal in the early 70s and before that was a much grittier city. Lots of vice and corruption, and the urban renewal, green spaces, waterfront renovation really got going around 1974, though the plans were in motion by about 1970. Interesting side stuff about how the anti-conscription White Panthers were active and how in '70 there was both a student strike and the blowing up of the copy of the Liberty Bell that was never solved. But I haven't been able to find any tourist map or guide to downtown Portland that gives a full picture of what businesses were where. I am very grateful that someone from the Portland area who knows the city and remembers its earlier incarnations has contacted me and may be able to give a clearer picture. It's daunting enough writing a story set in a city you've never visited, let alone one in the past. Surprisingly little video footage of Portland in that era outside that kid's Super-8 video.
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I don't know if they looked into the facts about the bomb..they thought it could be flares, but they were easy to find, I believe during this time period..I think it would be like trying to track down where the tie clip came from..
I have a feeling it was fake..he stated he was worried that the planes radio might set it off..it appears he had it wired in a series, and when he claimed to touch the wires, boom..the circuit is broken, so nothing electrical would set it off. sounds like a battery with a detonator in the dynamite. very simple. no timer seen, or needed..
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I have a feeling it was fake..he stated he was worried that the planes radio might set it off.
That statement appears to have multiple reasons..first, it makes the bomb sound real and puts more fear into the situation. second, he was trying to slow the communication down outside of the plane..a little mind control :congrats:
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I have a feeling it was fake..he stated he was worried that the planes radio might set it off.
That statement appears to have multiple reasons..first, it makes the bomb sound real and puts more fear into the situation. second, he was trying to slow the communication down outside of the plane..a little mind control :congrats:
Yeah, that part was interesting to me, too. I think your analysis is sound. And once again underlines the cleverness of this guy. It's the same as asking for the 4 chutes, seeding fears of a hostage being forced to jump alongside, and preventing any sabotage to the chutes while keeping his real game plan cloaked. His psychological game was so on-point.
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and preventing any sabotage to the chutes
That didn't workout to well for him if he had to use the front chute...no D-rings, and a little problem with the canopy. still hard to say if he found out the chute was bad...
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I have a feeling it was fake..he stated he was worried that the planes radio might set it off.
That statement appears to have multiple reasons..first, it makes the bomb sound real and puts more fear into the situation. second, he was trying to slow the communication down outside of the plane..a little mind control :congrats:
Yeah, that part was interesting to me, too. I think your analysis is sound. And once again underlines the cleverness of this guy. It's the same as asking for the 4 chutes, seeding fears of a hostage being forced to jump alongside, and preventing any sabotage to the chutes while keeping his real game plan cloaked. His psychological game was so on-point.
Glad you and Cooper talked it out for you to know - the rest of us are still in the dark! 8) Just as the FAA psychiatrist was! Fact is, you are just guessing.
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and preventing any sabotage to the chutes
That didn't workout to well for him if he had to use the front chute...no D-rings, and a little problem with the canopy. still hard to say if he found out the chute was bad...
Hm, yes, I wish I knew more about skydiving, but I don't wish it enough to actually do it! Out of curiosity, how frequently is the reserve chute used/needed?
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and preventing any sabotage to the chutes
That didn't workout to well for him if he had to use the front chute...no D-rings, and a little problem with the canopy. still hard to say if he found out the chute was bad...
Hm, yes, I wish I knew more about skydiving, but I don't wish it enough to actually do it! Out of curiosity, how frequently is the reserve chute used?
I've never skydived, but they are used when shit hits the fan..I believe 377 has had a time or two and needed the front chute..
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I bungee jumped 270 feet O0
Radio station wanted to hear what it sounds like while jumping..first guy took the phone with him and lost it on the way down..I taped it to my palm...they had a crane on the Fort Lauderdale beach...this was back in the early 90's...
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I bungee jumped 270 feet O0
Radio station wanted to hear what it sounds like while jumping..first guy took the phone with him and lost it on the way down..I taped it to my palm...they had a crane on the Fort Lauderdale beach...this was back in the early 90's...
I'm such a chicken. Closest I ever got to parachuting was parasailing. It was so peaceful. My 70+ mother, however, did manage the bungee jump.
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I was going to do it again but the accidents started just after I did my jump..my career in bungee jumping came to a halt..
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I was going to do it again but the accidents started just after I did my jump..my career in bungee jumping came to a halt..
I used to say if I got near 90 I'd do all the things I was mortally scared to do in my youth - take opium or acid and do a skydive. But then I read how they wouldn't let Petey do it anymore and may just have to leave them undone, because it'll take me a good 40 years to work up the nerve. ;)
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This might be a deal breaker lol
..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nieTpOlZN40
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Next vid up had the grandmother describe what happened and what it was like. She was shook up but not injured. Amazing.
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R99, or 377, is it policy for skydiving companies to force someone out of a plane? it's obvious she had second thoughts and didn't want to go. he removed her hands from the plane several times forcing her out of the plane...
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R99, or 377, is it policy for skydiving companies to force someone out of a plane? it's obvious she had second thoughts and didn't want to go. he removed her hands from the plane several times forcing her out of the plane...
I am not aware of any would be skydiver being thrown out of a plane. I do know of people going up for their first jump and still being in the jump ship when it landed. And others who made one jump and called it a career.
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and preventing any sabotage to the chutes
That didn't workout to well for him if he had to use the front chute...no D-rings, and a little problem with the canopy. still hard to say if he found out the chute was bad...
Hm, yes, I wish I knew more about skydiving, but I don't wish it enough to actually do it! Out of curiosity, how frequently is the reserve chute used/needed?
I had to use my reserve on my 9th jump due to a complete inversion of the main canopy. Our DZ buddy Amazon had to use her reserve on her 10th jump for reasons she didn't explain.
Long time jumpers like 377, and probably Amazon also, very likely have to use their reserve chute once in several hundred jumps depending on what they are doing. Amazon likes to do these extremely high speed vertical free-falls, reaching speeds up to about 300 MPH which is about twice the normal opening speed, and then being unable to slow down to the normal opening speed. She has broken shroud lines and landed with damaged chutes. I don't know if she had to use her reserve on one of those jumps.
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R99, or 377, is it policy for skydiving companies to force someone out of a plane? it's obvious she had second thoughts and didn't want to go. he removed her hands from the plane several times forcing her out of the plane...
I am not aware of any would be skydiver being thrown out of a plane. I do know of people going up for their first jump and still being in the jump ship when it landed. And others who made one jump and called it a career.
Did you watch the video? it was pretty clear she didn't want to jump..
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R99, or 377, is it policy for skydiving companies to force someone out of a plane? it's obvious she had second thoughts and didn't want to go. he removed her hands from the plane several times forcing her out of the plane...
I am not aware of any would be skydiver being thrown out of a plane. I do know of people going up for their first jump and still being in the jump ship when it landed. And others who made one jump and called it a career.
Did you watch the video? it was pretty clear she didn't want to jump..
It sure looked like she had changed her mind.
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R99, or 377, is it policy for skydiving companies to force someone out of a plane? it's obvious she had second thoughts and didn't want to go. he removed her hands from the plane several times forcing her out of the plane...
I am not aware of any would be skydiver being thrown out of a plane. I do know of people going up for their first jump and still being in the jump ship when it landed. And others who made one jump and called it a career.
Did you watch the video? it was pretty clear she didn't want to jump..
It sure looked like she had changed her mind.
She obviously slipped out of the harness, but I don't know if it was from the struggle of not wanting to leave the plane..
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watching a followup video the woman claims he didn't force her out...
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It appears she was complaining it was tight. they loosened the straps..the instructor failed to check her harness prior to jumping...one of the straps was seen off her shoulder while waiting...very lucky lady...
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R99, or 377, is it policy for skydiving companies to force someone out of a plane? it's obvious she had second thoughts and didn't want to go. he removed her hands from the plane several times forcing her out of the plane...
It is dangerous trying to get a balking inexperienced jumper back into the plane once they are out or partially out. They flail, twist and turn and can accidentally pull or snag deployment handles in their panic. For that reason, if a jumper balks when out or partially out, SOP is to exit not re-enter the cabin.
A chute deploying inside the plane that snakes out the door and inflates can shred the harnessed jumper through the aluminum side and yes this HAS happened. Or, it can wrap around the elevator and make the plane uncontrollable. In one case the deploying chute actually ripped the whole tail section off of the aircraft. http://www.dropzone.com/news/Safety/Cool_pilot_saves_11_skydivers_258.html
And yes, twice I had to do a cutaway use my reserve when my main chute malfunctioned. Once in 1972 using a 1950s surplus 26 foot Navy Conical reserve and once in 2005 using a modern PDR 193 square reserve. The Navy reserve cost $25. I was thinking hard about my thriftiness as I watched the ground rushing up praying that my dirt cheap Plan B would work. My PDR 193 (193 st ft) was state of the art and cost about $1000. I expected it to work flawlessly and it did.
I am jumping next Saturday, March 31. Details at www.parachutemobile.org. Georger, I will be working 20M QRP SSB on 14.250 MHz from aloft.
Hope I have had my last reserve ride, but having done it twice, I am a lot more confident about doing a successful cutaway if the need arises.
377
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I am looking a tight group of three friends/associates...
One was in an environment that matches the tie particles and time frame.
One is a dead ringer for the 2nd Cooper sketch..
All were pilots.
But that would suggest a possible accomplice scenario. Colbert has the Wally Foss story where 3 people and small planes were involved, they picked up the hijacker at Goheen Airport and flew to another small airport then another plane to Portland. Stories like this often get embellished or twisted over time but may have some kernel of truth to them.
However, I am having a difficult time figuring this possibility out. These guys were all pilots had small planes and were very experienced at landing in fields..
How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
How could they rendezvous with a jumper where a small plane could land? Seems very difficult.. Is there a military procedure? Radio? Flare, Signal? Could they track the the jumper?
Seems a tough ask, but I don't really know much about this stuff..
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I like to fantasize that DBC used radio gear to communicate with a pick up person, but its just fantasy, zero evidence that he had any kind of radio gear. He really should have carried a pocket-sized tunable VHF receiver (under $30 at Radio Shack in 1971). He could have easily monitored all comms between the plane and the various ground units.
On Sat March 31st, I set a new parachute to ground radio distance record, talking with Lloyd G. Rasmussen W3IUU in Maryland while I was flying my canopy over Byron CA at about 8000 ft. My radio was a book sized battery powered Yaesu FT 817 putting out slightly less than 5 watts on 14.250 MHz USB. Lloyd is blind and learned about my upcoming jump through a network of blind hams.
I had a very busy jump. My canopy opened with line twists but since I opened so high I had plenty of time to kick them out. I was carrying a Go Pro camera driving a 5.8 GHz transmitter for live air to ground video. I also had APRS telemetry gear that broadcast my GPS data and heart rate and blood oxygen percentage to ground stations that auto-posted the data on the Internet in real time. Had to unwind and deploy a trailing wire end fed dipole antenna. Also had a VHF UHF radio to communicate with the DZ and get up to date wind info.
My resting HR is 67 BPM. The telemetry data showed a peak of 173 BPM!!! during the more stressful parts of the jump. Worst SpO2 was 84%, getting better as I descended into denser air.
377
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Line twists? 377! You're giving me gray hairs!!!
Well, at least the ones I have left...
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R99, or 377, is it policy for skydiving companies to force someone out of a plane? it's obvious she had second thoughts and didn't want to go. he removed her hands from the plane several times forcing her out of the plane...
I am not aware of any would be skydiver being thrown out of a plane. I do know of people going up for their first jump and still being in the jump ship when it landed. And others who made one jump and called it a career.
Actually, there is a very disturbing video that I can't locate at the moment that shows a group of hypoxic loopy skydivers literally rolling UNCONSCIOUS skydivers out the door of a Lockheed Constellation. Fortunately, these involuntary jumpers came to at lower altitudes and managed to deploy their canopies, no injuries or fatalities.
Here is something similar with two hypoxic jumpers making terrible decisions, skip to 2:09: https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-pty-pty_converter&hsimp=yhs-pty_converter&hspart=pty&p=youtube+skydivers+hypoxia#id=2&vid=f024c5598fca316eb035cf9e214788db&action=click
377
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I am looking a tight group of three friends/associates...
One was in an environment that matches the tie particles and time frame.
One is a dead ringer for the 2nd Cooper sketch..
All were pilots.
But that would suggest a possible accomplice scenario. Colbert has the Wally Foss story where 3 people and small planes were involved, they picked up the hijacker at Goheen Airport and flew to another small airport then another plane to Portland. Stories like this often get embellished or twisted over time but may have some kernel of truth to them.
However, I am having a difficult time figuring this possibility out. These guys were all pilots had small planes and were very experienced at landing in fields..
How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
How could they rendezvous with a jumper where a small plane could land? Seems very difficult.. Is there a military procedure? Radio? Flare, Signal? Could they track the the jumper?
Seems a tough ask, but I don't really know much about this stuff..
I wonder if a small plane with accomplices of DBC could have followed the 727 at some point to spot him jumping.
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
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Actually, there is a very disturbing video that I can't locate at the moment that shows a group of hypoxic loopy skydivers literally rolling UNCONSCIOUS skydivers out the door of a Lockheed Constellation. Fortunately, these involuntary jumpers came to at lower altitudes and managed to deploy their canopies, no injuries or fatalities.
Here is something similar with two hypoxic jumpers making terrible decisions, skip to 2:09: https://video.search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?fr=yhs-pty-pty_converter&hsimp=yhs-pty_converter&hspart=pty&p=youtube+skydivers+hypoxia#id=2&vid=f024c5598fca316eb035cf9e214788db&action=click
377
You realize, 377, that you are doing NOTHING to dispel my anxieties about your avocation. Pushing hypoxic humans out of airplanes and hoping they "come to" at a lower altitude....
Yikes.
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Nobody else managed to track that plane successfully - weren't there a few amateurs who got called into service when the military jets lost track, or am I mis-remembering? If the latter is true, I don't think any accomplice would have been more successful. I'm still up in the air with accomplices, but even more so with radios, just because he was already carrying so much stuff, and he had to have one hand free to pull the cord. I think he had to have tossed some stuff before, stuff people wouldn't necessarily notice in the woods, like the battery, but like most else, that's just conjecture.
Side note: One thing I noticed while reading GG's book - maybe it's just the printing I have - in the map at the front of the book, the plane is pointed the wrong way. The V-23 Portland - Seattle route is shown - but the map shows the plane like it's heading from Portland to Seattle while also pointing out the jump zone, which was when it was flying away from Seattle. I kept staring at it in befuddlement until I clued in. Maybe that's standard on maps showing plane routes? Very confusing, anyway.
Also - was the placard inside or outside V-23? I'm sure it's been covered somewhere before, but I can't remember. Something that small could get carried many miles from where it fell off before getting near the ground, but does anyone more mathematically inclined have any clue approximately where the plane might have been when the placard fell? Is it reasonable to assume it was around the time he was trying to get the stairs down - likely as they descended? Sorry to be rehashing what I'm sure is old ground for some.
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Right, but nobody else managed to track that plane successfully - weren't there a few amateurs who got called into service when the military jets lost track, or am I mis-remembering? If the latter is true, I don't think any accomplice would have been more successful. I'm still up in the air with accomplices, but even more so with radios, just because he was already carrying so much stuff, and he had to have one hand free to pull the cord. I think he had to have tossed some stuff before, stuff people wouldn't necessarily notice in the woods, like the battery, but like most else, that's just conjecture.
Side note: One thing I noticed while reading GG's book - maybe it's just the printing I have - in the map at the front of the book, the plane is pointed the wrong way. The V-23 Portland - Seattle route is shown - but the map shows the plane like it's heading from Portland to Seattle while also pointing out the jump zone, which was when it was flying away from Seattle. I kept staring at it in befuddlement until I clued in. Maybe that's standard on maps showing plane routes? Very confusing, anyway.
Also - was the placard inside or outside V-23? I'm sure it's been covered somewhere before, but I can't remember. Something that small could get carried many miles from where it fell off before getting near the ground, but does anyone more mathematically inclined have any clue approximately where the plane might have been when the placard fell? Is it reasonable to assume it was around the time he was trying to get the stairs down - likely as they descended? Sorry to be rehashing what I'm sure is old ground for some.
I have made several posts on the subject of the placard. One or two of those posts were made for Tom Kaye and are posted on his web site. I think there is a more detailed discussion on the Flight Path Revisited thread on this subject and there are certainly other posts in other threads on this.
Basically, using a very conservative approach and estimates, the placard separated from the airliner somewhere west of the centerline of V-23. Estimates for the time of separation is mainly a guess since the ATC radio transcripts do not have exact times for most of the flight south.
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
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Bruce,
Disagree about the Rabbit hole, these things need to be explored if only to rule them out.
Lynn,
The placard came from a small emergency Airstair release door inside the plane next to the main control door panel. Not all 727's were equipped with that emergency release. My speculation is that "Cooper" had trouble lowering the Airstairs via the main control and used the emergency release. That emergency release door pulls completely off and has the placard attached. Activating the emergency release drops the Airstairs instantly by breaking the locks vs the hydraulic main control. I also believe that the small "plastic" door is still out in the woods somewhere, it separated from the attached placard. Robert99 is correct, the location of the Placard is known but without exact times ??
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.
Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.
Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.
Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.
Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling. Theoretically, they may have been able to know where 305 was listening to radio transmissions, not chasing but circling ahead. But, no way the jumper could hit a predetermined target, unless they picked him in a helicopter I can't see how they could co-ordinate a small plane rendezvous at an airstrip.
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Flyjack wrote:
"Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling. Theoretically, they may have been able to know where 305 was listening to radio transmissions, not chasing but circling ahead. But, no way the jumper could hit a predetermined target, unless they picked him in a helicopter I can't see how they could co-ordinate a small plane rendezvous at an airstrip."
All true, and I agree 100%, BUT... look how close McCoy landed to his home. Look how close Heady landed to his car.
377
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Let's not forget that McCoy basically flew the plane from the back...good reason he landed so accurately.....
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True, McCoy, a military pilot, was very active in controlling the flight path.
Heady not so much.
377
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Bruce,
Disagree about the Rabbit hole, these things need to be explored if only to rule them out.
Jackster - I love Rabbit Holes! I often follow them. In fact, it seems I'm usually following YOU!
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Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
Oops. My bad. Yes, all Victor 23 airway variants were west of the mountains.
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Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling....
Jackster - you keep mentioning a "Wally Foss" as the co-conspirator pilot that was part of the Colbert getaway scenario. However, I have never seen Colbert identify his "Wally" with a last name. But, in my research I have discovered that the most prominent small-plane pilot in the area was Wally Olson, owner of Evergreen field in Vancouver and the founding member of the Antique Airplane Club, which is now prominent in Scappoose, Oregon, where Wally and Coop and the Boys supposedly flew.
So who is Wally Foss?
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Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling....
Jackster - you keep mentioning a "Wally Foss" as the co-conspirator pilot that was part of the Colbert getaway scenario. However, I have never seen Colbert identify his "Wally" with a last name. But, in my research I have discovered that the most prominent small-plane pilot in the area was Wally Olson, owner of Evergreen field in Vancouver and the founding member of the Antique Airplane Club, which is now prominent in Scappoose, Oregon, where Wally and Coop and the Boys supposedly flew.
So who is Wally Foss?
The Wally in the "story" is Wally Foss NOT Wally Olson (d 1997 age 86), I think I read it somewhere (maybe it got removed/edited) or I just figured out but the pic and age 64 in 1997 is a match. He was a member of the Northwest Antique Airplane Club, the guy I am researching that matched the tie environment has a connection to that club but I haven't found any connection to Wally.
http://obits.oregonlive.com/obituaries/oregon/obituary.aspx?n=wallace-l-foss&pid=172818804&fhid=11229
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.
Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.
Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling. Theoretically, they may have been able to know where 305 was listening to radio transmissions, not chasing but circling ahead. But, no way the jumper could hit a predetermined target, unless they picked him in a helicopter I can't see how they could co-ordinate a small plane rendezvous at an airstrip.
No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.
All small plane ground citings reported were thoroughly investigated in the days following 11-24-71. See the FOIA files. What McCoy and others did is irrelevant! What Colbert and Ramtha say is irrelevant! What camels and bears say and think is irrelevant! :rofl:
It's time to get back to the case and that is exactly what some of us have decided to do - hopefully more will follow with some new faces (all qualified people in their areas of expertise who have never been on any Cooper talk show forum before).
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.
Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.
Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling. Theoretically, they may have been able to know where 305 was listening to radio transmissions, not chasing but circling ahead. But, no way the jumper could hit a predetermined target, unless they picked him in a helicopter I can't see how they could co-ordinate a small plane rendezvous at an airstrip.
No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.
All small plane ground citings reported were thoroughly investigated in the days following 11-24-71. See the FOIA files. What McCoy and others did is irrelevant! What Colbert and Ramtha say is irrelevant! What camels and bears say and think is irrelevant! :rofl:
It's time to get back to the case and that is exactly what some of us have decided to do - hopefully more will follow with some new faces (all qualified people in their areas of expertise who have never been on any Cooper talk show forum before).
We are fast approaching the 50th Anniversary,, the same thinking over that time has failed to solve this case. Traditional investigative thinking has failed. New thinking is needed.
The best clue is the tie particle matrix...other than a dental lab (school), any other environments match?
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.
Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.
Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling. Theoretically, they may have been able to know where 305 was listening to radio transmissions, not chasing but circling ahead. But, no way the jumper could hit a predetermined target, unless they picked him in a helicopter I can't see how they could co-ordinate a small plane rendezvous at an airstrip.
No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.
All small plane ground citings reported were thoroughly investigated in the days following 11-24-71. See the FOIA files. What McCoy and others did is irrelevant! What Colbert and Ramtha say is irrelevant! What camels and bears say and think is irrelevant! :rofl:
It's time to get back to the case and that is exactly what some of us have decided to do - hopefully more will follow with some new faces (all qualified people in their areas of expertise who have never been on any Cooper talk show forum before).
We are fast approaching the 50th Anniversary,, the same thinking over that time has failed to solve this case. Traditional investigative thinking has failed. New thinking is needed.
The best clue is the tie particle matrix...other than a dental lab (school), any other environments match?
The new tie particle list is one set of 'clues' but the details of those particles remains under-developed. That's just a fact. Yours is simply one more suspect with one interpretation/set of claims. We have been down that old road so many times dogs don't even need noses to find the 'prize'! But keep barking and advertising in social media anyway - :congrats:
I prefer to work known problems vs sitting around thinking up new ones and advertising them! I have no suspect who lived in a termite infested building and did dental work to sell! The particle list you refer to exists because of Basic Research, and for no other reason. ;)
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.
Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.
Sure, the Wally Foss Colbert story had a small plane circling. Theoretically, they may have been able to know where 305 was listening to radio transmissions, not chasing but circling ahead. But, no way the jumper could hit a predetermined target, unless they picked him in a helicopter I can't see how they could co-ordinate a small plane rendezvous at an airstrip.
No aircraft were seen by military and civilian controllers following or coordinating with 305 other than those authorised to be there. No ordinary small prop driven aircraft could have keep up with 305, but none were seen on radar in any event.
All small plane ground citings reported were thoroughly investigated in the days following 11-24-71. See the FOIA files. What McCoy and others did is irrelevant! What Colbert and Ramtha say is irrelevant! What camels and bears say and think is irrelevant! :rofl:
It's time to get back to the case and that is exactly what some of us have decided to do - hopefully more will follow with some new faces (all qualified people in their areas of expertise who have never been on any Cooper talk show forum before).
We are fast approaching the 50th Anniversary,, the same thinking over that time has failed to solve this case. Traditional investigative thinking has failed. New thinking is needed.
The best clue is the tie particle matrix...other than a dental lab (school), any other environments match?
The new tie particle list is one set of 'clues' but the details of those particles remains under-developed. That's just a fact. Yours is simply one more suspect with one interpretation/set of claims. We have been down that old road so many times dogs don't even need noses to find the 'prize'! But keep barking and advertising in social media anyway - :congrats:
I prefer to work known problems vs sitting around thinking up new ones and advertising them! I have no suspect who lived in a termite infested building and did dental work to sell! The particle list you refer to exists because of Basic Research, and for no other reason. ;)
In summary, you have no matching particle environment.
I found the dental lab to be the best match that I could find but that doesn't mean it is the right one. If there are others let's look at them.
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.
Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
How about taking the flares used for the fake bomb, and chucking them out the plane at intervals? if they had a general rendezvous point on V23 and that there's only a few major roads, well...
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.
Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
How about taking the flares used for the fake bomb, and chucking them out the plane at intervals? if they had a general rendezvous point on V23 and that there's only a few major roads, well...
Bears and feral dogs are attracted to flares. Cooper and his money would have been eaten. The money at Tina Bar proves there were no flares. http://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/wildlife/
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.
Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
How about taking the flares used for the fake bomb, and chucking them out the plane at intervals? if they had a general rendezvous point on V23 and that there's only a few major roads, well...
I've considered that he could have used the bomb/flares to signal from the ground, Colbert's story has a pickup truck flashing lights. The real problem is the flightpath is the hijacker could have been 25+ miles E or W of an intended target.
There are only two scenarios that would make a "rendezvous" possible. If the hijacker did direct the flightpath and FBI is withholding that info or he planned to jump immediately after takeoff, the further the plane flew the larger the variability. The hijacker must have had a planned LZ. So, IMO he didn't necessarily jump where he had intended.
What if the plane flew out over the Ocean..
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.
Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
How about taking the flares used for the fake bomb, and chucking them out the plane at intervals? if they had a general rendezvous point on V23 and that there's only a few major roads, well...
I've considered that he could have used the bomb/flares to signal from the ground, Colbert's story has a pickup truck flashing lights. The real problem is the flightpath is the hijacker could have been 25+ miles E or W of an intended target.
There are only two scenarios that would make a "rendezvous" possible. If the hijacker did direct the flightpath and FBI is withholding that info or he planned to jump immediately after takeoff, the further the plane flew the larger the variability. The hijacker must have had a planned LZ. So, IMO he didn't necessarily jump where he had intended.
What if the plane flew out over the Ocean..
Rataczak reportedly suggested climbing above the clouds and then heading out over the Pacific and circling there until Cooper jumped. But NWA management ruled that out.
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"Rataczak reportedly suggested climbing above the clouds and then heading out over the Pacific and circling there until Cooper jumped. But NWA management ruled that out."
Had he done that, and Cooper drowned, would it have been a homicide? Not really self-defense as once Cooper left the plane, even over land, he wasn't a threat to the crew. An exit over obscured water just assured DOA. You have the intent to kill and no self-defense mitigation. No prosecutor would have pursued it but it's an interesting law school hypothetical. If I were defending the Capt. I'd say that it was done for bomb safety and Cooper colde have avoided death by staying on the plane, so his death wasn't caused by the act of another.
377
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How would they know the flightpath (V23). Was it broadcast? Could they have heard the radio transmissions to track the 727 take off time, flightpath and position? Could they sufficiently track the plane?
Ron Forman discusses this at length in his book "Legend of DB Cooper - Death by Natural Means." Ron says that he and other local pilots knew all commercial flights heading southbound at 10K were in Victor 23. Other researchers, particular here, says that there are variants on that, such as a Victor-23 A flight path that was still east of the mountains.
The bigger question is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? Commandos, extractions teams, hi-end comms on both ends, inside info from McChord and Seattle Center? Etc. If you follow this wacky wabbit as far as he can hop, just about anything is possible. In my view, the only real impediment to discussing this kind of scenario is how dearly one wants to hold on to the notion that the "government (military, et. al.) would never do that kind of thing..."
Bruce, you need to keep all the V-23 airways straight. The airliner was on V-23 which is a dog leg between the Seattle VORTAC and what was then the Portland VORTAC (but is now the Battleground VORTAC), V-23E was a straight line airway between the Seattle VORTAC and the Portland VORTAC, and there was a V-23W south of Portland. V-23E is now known as V-495 (I think it is).
There is no reason why any aircraft, airliner or otherwise, with suitable climb performance could not use V-23E. And all of these airways are WEST of the Cascades.
This is the problem, how could there be any co-ordination. I assume a potential "pilot" accomplice could track the plane and its location via the radio transmissions, but how could they co-ordinate a rendezvous on the ground. Too many variables.
Unless the FBI is withholding info, there is no way "Cooper" would have the accuracy to get close to a pre-determined location.
How about taking the flares used for the fake bomb, and chucking them out the plane at intervals? if they had a general rendezvous point on V23 and that there's only a few major roads, well...
I've considered that he could have used the bomb/flares to signal from the ground, Colbert's story has a pickup truck flashing lights. The real problem is the flightpath is the hijacker could have been 25+ miles E or W of an intended target.
There are only two scenarios that would make a "rendezvous" possible. If the hijacker did direct the flightpath and FBI is withholding that info or he planned to jump immediately after takeoff, the further the plane flew the larger the variability. The hijacker must have had a planned LZ. So, IMO he didn't necessarily jump where he had intended.
What if the plane flew out over the Ocean..
But they didn't! :rofl:
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"Rataczak reportedly suggested climbing above the clouds and then heading out over the Pacific and circling there until Cooper jumped. But NWA management ruled that out."
Had he done that, and Cooper drowned, would it have been a homicide? Not really self-defense as once Cooper left the plane, even over land, he wasn't a threat to the crew. An exit over obscured water just assured DOA. You have the intent to kill and no self-defense mitigation. No prosecutor would have pursued it but it's an interesting law school hypothetical. If I were defending the Capt. I'd say that it was done for bomb safety and Cooper colde have avoided death by staying on the plane, so his death wasn't caused by the act of another.
377
The crew could have made a suicide pact and informed Cooper if he didn't not give up they would crash the plane. Rataczak (a whiner known for making shit up) could have informed Cooper: "we have our own bomb. Give up or else!"
The what-if's are endless. Are you being entertained?
:chr2:
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"Rataczak reportedly suggested climbing above the clouds and then heading out over the Pacific and circling there until Cooper jumped. But NWA management ruled that out."
Had he done that, and Cooper drowned, would it have been a homicide? Not really self-defense as once Cooper left the plane, even over land, he wasn't a threat to the crew. An exit over obscured water just assured DOA. You have the intent to kill and no self-defense mitigation. No prosecutor would have pursued it but it's an interesting law school hypothetical. If I were defending the Capt. I'd say that it was done for bomb safety and Cooper colde have avoided death by staying on the plane, so his death wasn't caused by the act of another.
377
Since the crew had also been informed by the FAA Chief Psychologist that Cooper would probably blow the aircraft up when he jumped, their attorney could also claim that they were acting to prevent deaths on the ground due to the falling debris. The crew would certainly have been killed if the bomb went off anywhere, but they could have avoided injuries on the ground if everything fell into the Pacific.
The captain of an aircraft has essentially the same authority as a ship captain. He can do just about anything to ensure the safety of his aircraft and passengers. He may have to do a lot of explaining later, but no action is going to be taken against him. Even if charges are filed, no jury is going to convict him. The captain is the captain and that is the whole story.
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"Rataczak reportedly suggested climbing above the clouds and then heading out over the Pacific and circling there until Cooper jumped. But NWA management ruled that out."
Had he done that, and Cooper drowned, would it have been a homicide? Not really self-defense as once Cooper left the plane, even over land, he wasn't a threat to the crew. An exit over obscured water just assured DOA. You have the intent to kill and no self-defense mitigation. No prosecutor would have pursued it but it's an interesting law school hypothetical. If I were defending the Capt. I'd say that it was done for bomb safety and Cooper colde have avoided death by staying on the plane, so his death wasn't caused by the act of another.
377
Since the crew had also been informed by the FAA Chief Psychologist that Cooper would probably blow the aircraft up when he jumped, their attorney could also claim that they were acting to prevent deaths on the ground due to the falling debris. The crew would certainly have been killed if the bomb went off anywhere, but they could have avoided injuries on the ground if everything fell into the Pacific.
The captain of an aircraft has essentially the same authority as a ship captain. He can do just about anything to ensure the safety of his aircraft and passengers. He may have to do a lot of explaining later, but no action is going to be taken against him. Even if charges are filed, no jury is going to convict him. The captain is the captain and that is the whole story.
All Cooper victims may be entitled to a SubstaNTIAL cASH pAYMENT! File your claim by Dec 25th 2098.
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"Rataczak reportedly suggested climbing above the clouds and then heading out over the Pacific and circling there until Cooper jumped. But NWA management ruled that out."
Had he done that, and Cooper drowned, would it have been a homicide? Not really self-defense as once Cooper left the plane, even over land, he wasn't a threat to the crew. An exit over obscured water just assured DOA. You have the intent to kill and no self-defense mitigation. No prosecutor would have pursued it but it's an interesting law school hypothetical. If I were defending the Capt. I'd say that it was done for bomb safety and Cooper colde have avoided death by staying on the plane, so his death wasn't caused by the act of another.
377
Since the crew had also been informed by the FAA Chief Psychologist that Cooper would probably blow the aircraft up when he jumped, their attorney could also claim that they were acting to prevent deaths on the ground due to the falling debris. The crew would certainly have been killed if the bomb went off anywhere, but they could have avoided injuries on the ground if everything fell into the Pacific.
The captain of an aircraft has essentially the same authority as a ship captain. He can do just about anything to ensure the safety of his aircraft and passengers. He may have to do a lot of explaining later, but no action is going to be taken against him. Even if charges are filed, no jury is going to convict him. The captain is the captain and that is the whole story.
All Cooper victims may be entitled to a SubstaNTIAL cASH pAYMENT! File your claim by Dec 25th 2098.
Perhaps the attorney representing the victims could hire a private investigator to locate Cooper and his assets. ;)
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"Rataczak reportedly suggested climbing above the clouds and then heading out over the Pacific and circling there until Cooper jumped. But NWA management ruled that out."
Had he done that, and Cooper drowned, would it have been a homicide? Not really self-defense as once Cooper left the plane, even over land, he wasn't a threat to the crew. An exit over obscured water just assured DOA. You have the intent to kill and no self-defense mitigation. No prosecutor would have pursued it but it's an interesting law school hypothetical. If I were defending the Capt. I'd say that it was done for bomb safety and Cooper colde have avoided death by staying on the plane, so his death wasn't caused by the act of another.
377
Since the crew had also been informed by the FAA Chief Psychologist that Cooper would probably blow the aircraft up when he jumped, their attorney could also claim that they were acting to prevent deaths on the ground due to the falling debris. The crew would certainly have been killed if the bomb went off anywhere, but they could have avoided injuries on the ground if everything fell into the Pacific.
The captain of an aircraft has essentially the same authority as a ship captain. He can do just about anything to ensure the safety of his aircraft and passengers. He may have to do a lot of explaining later, but no action is going to be taken against him. Even if charges are filed, no jury is going to convict him. The captain is the captain and that is the whole story.
All Cooper victims may be entitled to a SubstaNTIAL cASH pAYMENT! File your claim by Dec 25th 2098.
Perhaps the attorney representing the victims could hire a private investigator to locate Cooper and his assets. ;)
Thats been done: Galen Cook & Bruce Smith, with other known parties lurking under false pretenses.
Its always about money - follow the money trail.
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Georger wrote: "All Cooper victims may be entitled to a SubstaNTIAL cASH pAYMENT! File your claim by Dec 25th 2098."
I usually ignore those class action notices as almost all the money recovered goes to the lawyers and a mere pittance to the class they purportedly represent.
Just last week I received a letter from the Southern California Gas Co, a public utility, informing me that I had received my share of a class action recovery for some alleged overcharging of customers that happened long ago. The letter had metered first class postage on it which I think is about 49 cents. The amount of my recovery? TWO CENTS!
377
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Georger wrote: "All Cooper victims may be entitled to a SubstaNTIAL cASH pAYMENT! File your claim by Dec 25th 2098."
I usually ignore those class action notices as almost all the money recovered goes to the lawyers and a mere pittance to the class they purportedly represent.
Just last week I received a letter from the Southern California Gas Co, a public utility, informing me that I had received my share of a class action recovery for some alleged overcharging of customers that happened long ago. The letter had metered first class postage on it which I think is about 49 cents. The amount of my recovery? TWO CENTS!
377
In 4022 that two cents will be a fortune. Worth at least a small condo on Mars! ;) So consider sticking it in asparagus futures.
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Looks like FBI was on the CIA/Air America/Southern Airways 727 jump connection in Dec 71..
"(Johnny) Kirkley was later selected as one of seven air-freight specialists sent to Takhli, Thailand, on a secret mission to train to jump and drop freight from a commercial Boeing 727 jet. “There was unrest in Tibet on the Chinese border and the CIA wanted to do some tests to see if it was feasible to make high-altitude drops of paratroopers and cargo from a 727,” he said.
After making a few jumps and dropping several loads of cargo, Kirkley said the mission was eventually scrubbed.
“Fast-forward to the first week in December of 1971 in Anchorage, Alaska,” Kirkley said, continuing his story about being trained to jump from the back of a Boeing 727. “I was in my second year of owning and operating the Polar Bar on Fifth Avenue in downtown Anchorage. I was having a cup of coffee and talking to a customer when two men dressed in suits entered the bar. They showed me their FBI identi cations and told me that they were investigating a skyjacking that had taken place in Portland, Ore., on Nov. 24, the day before Thanksgiving.
“A man called D.B. Cooper had extorted the airline out of $200,000 and jumped from the rear of a Boeing 727 over Oregon. They told me they knew that I had jumped out of a 727 when I was working with Air America,” he said.
“They then showed me a picture of the suspect and asked if I recognized him. I told him that he looked like Louie Banta (CJ-51) (aka Louis A Banta), who had been a smokejumper in Oregon and worked with me in Air America, although I didn’t recall him being one of the seven who jumped on the 727 project in Thailand. As it turned out, Louie also lived in Oregon, where D.B. Cooper deplaned, but Banta was thoroughly exonerated and Cooper has never been found.
“Over the years since, it has become a standing joke at smokejumper and Air America reunions that D.B. Cooper lives,” Kirkley laughed, adding that his close friend and former Alabama track teammate Charley Moseley was also questioned by the FBI about the still - unsolved D.B. Cooper incident."
https://smokejumpers.com/documents/magazine_pdfs/smokejumper-2014-01-2.99MB.pdf
Apparently there were several test jumps...
https://www.utdallas.edu/library/specialcollections/hac/cataam/Leeker/history/Tibet.pdf
The 727 first shown in the video of the CIA jump tests had "normal" airstairs the second with a slide showing cargo and jumpers didn't. Southern did have two planes N5055 and N5092... either the vid shows two different planes or pre and post modification.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrqdmXxBZjIU.S
..
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Looks like FBI was on the CIA/Air America/Southern Airways 727 jump connection in Dec 71..
"(Johnny) Kirkley was later selected as one of seven air-freight specialists sent to Takhli, Thailand, on a secret mission to train to jump and drop freight from a commercial Boeing 727 jet. “There was unrest in Tibet on the Chinese border and the CIA wanted to do some tests to see if it was feasible to make high-altitude drops of paratroopers and cargo from a 727,” he said.
After making a few jumps and dropping several loads of cargo, Kirkley said the mission was eventually scrubbed.
“Fast-forward to the first week in December of 1971 in Anchorage, Alaska,” Kirkley said, continuing his story about being trained to jump from the back of a Boeing 727. “I was in my second year of owning and operating the Polar Bar on Fifth Avenue in downtown Anchorage. I was having a cup of coffee and talking to a customer when two men dressed in suits entered the bar. They showed me their FBI identi cations and told me that they were investigating a skyjacking that had taken place in Portland, Ore., on Nov. 24, the day before Thanksgiving.
“A man called D.B. Cooper had extorted the airline out of $200,000 and jumped from the rear of a Boeing 727 over Oregon. They told me they knew that I had jumped out of a 727 when I was working with Air America,” he said.
“They then showed me a picture of the suspect and asked if I recognized him. I told him that he looked like Louie Banta (CJ-51) (aka Louis A Banta), who had been a smokejumper in Oregon and worked with me in Air America, although I didn’t recall him being one of the seven who jumped on the 727 project in Thailand. As it turned out, Louie also lived in Oregon, where D.B. Cooper deplaned, but Banta was thoroughly exonerated and Cooper has never been found.
“Over the years since, it has become a standing joke at smokejumper and Air America reunions that D.B. Cooper lives,” Kirkley laughed, adding that his close friend and former Alabama track teammate Charley Moseley was also questioned by the FBI about the still - unsolved D.B. Cooper incident."
https://smokejumpers.com/documents/magazine_pdfs/smokejumper-2014-01-2.99MB.pdf
Apparently there were several test jumps...
https://www.utdallas.edu/library/specialcollections/hac/cataam/Leeker/history/Tibet.pdf
The 727 first shown in the video of the CIA jump tests had "normal" airstairs the second with a slide showing cargo and jumpers didn't. Southern did have two planes N5055 and N5092... either the vid shows two different planes or pre and post modification.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrqdmXxBZjIU.S
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Good on-topic post! Keep em coming... :congrats:
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Where are the FBI 302s about investigating known 727 jumpers and 727 airdrop crews? Would be good stuff for Colbert’s FOIA battle. Make the FBI produce the entire record.
Might Rackstraw have known about the SAT 727 airdrop tests out of Korat Thailand? If so how? Sheridan Peterson, through his smoke jumper connections could have learned about the 727 airdrops while in Vietnam. He mentioned seeing smoke jumpers he knew working for Air America in Vietnam.
377
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Where are the FBI 302s about investigating known 727 jumpers and 727 airdrop crews? Would be good stuff for Colbert’s FOIA battle. Make the FBI produce the entire record.
Might Rackstraw have known about the SAT 727 airdrop tests out of Korat Thailand? If so how? Sheridan Peterson, through his smoke jumper connections could have learned about the 727 airdrops while in Vietnam. He mentioned seeing smoke jumpers he knew working for Air America in Vietnam.
377
While laughing at the idea of his own involvement, Petey made a coy reference (in his interview segment "extra" on History) that the smoke jumpers he knew didn't mostly become skydivers. He said they became CIA - and that he knew some of them in Vietnam. I have occasionally wondered if some suspects may not be DBC but might have a strong idea who he was. I know he also has mentioned (Letters to the Wall) having seen "the horrors of the Phoenix Program". Anyone know if that program also employed military 727s? It's weird to me talking about secret agent stuff - I'm not much of a conspiracy watcher overall - but this was a time and place where that stuff was real and tangible.
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Where are the FBI 302s about investigating known 727 jumpers and 727 airdrop crews? Would be good stuff for Colbert’s FOIA battle. Make the FBI produce the entire record.
Might Rackstraw have known about the SAT 727 airdrop tests out of Korat Thailand? If so how? Sheridan Peterson, through his smoke jumper connections could have learned about the 727 airdrops while in Vietnam. He mentioned seeing smoke jumpers he knew working for Air America in Vietnam.
377
Don't know if anyone already posted this list of Air America smoke jumpers - the author describes it thus: “The List”: Former smokejumpers who were Air America “kickers” or pilots and/or were field employees of the CIA in “overseas” positions between 1951 and 1975, when the “Secret War” ended.
http://smokejumpers.com/index.php/smokejumpermagazine/getitem/articles_id=396
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Another 727 jump video. Exit whooshes clearly audible.
https://www.facebook.com/RedMarauder/videos/1420894486643/
377
FWW,, Another 727 group jump video, no wooshes,,, the difference is the first video looked like a slide on exit, the second no slide. Maybe the woosh in the first vid was the divers landing on the slide..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0p02jI4o3g
.
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Where are the FBI 302s about investigating known 727 jumpers and 727 airdrop crews? Would be good stuff for Colbert’s FOIA battle. Make the FBI produce the entire record.
Might Rackstraw have known about the SAT 727 airdrop tests out of Korat Thailand? If so how? Sheridan Peterson, through his smoke jumper connections could have learned about the 727 airdrops while in Vietnam. He mentioned seeing smoke jumpers he knew working for Air America in Vietnam.
377
Those 302s are mixed in the first ten batches of releases .... there's a ton of them. The FBI worked tips from various jumper clubs or contacted jumper organisations and worked through officials in each organization. From this they developed dozens of suspects to look at ...
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Where are the FBI 302s about investigating known 727 jumpers and 727 airdrop crews? Would be good stuff for Colbert’s FOIA battle. Make the FBI produce the entire record.
Might Rackstraw have known about the SAT 727 airdrop tests out of Korat Thailand? If so how? Sheridan Peterson, through his smoke jumper connections could have learned about the 727 airdrops while in Vietnam. He mentioned seeing smoke jumpers he knew working for Air America in Vietnam.
377
Don't know if anyone already posted this list of Air America smoke jumpers - the author describes it thus: “The List”: Former smokejumpers who were Air America “kickers” or pilots and/or were field employees of the CIA in “overseas” positions between 1951 and 1975, when the “Secret War” ended.
http://smokejumpers.com/index.php/smokejumpermagazine/getitem/articles_id=396
The WA/OR based shortened list (not complete).. Smokejumpers/CIA overseas "employees"
Mellin, Dave (RAC-66) Deceased 1/26/98
Rainey, George (RAC-68)
Yeager, Charley (RAC-65)
Smith, Glenn (NCSB-40) Deceased 5/28/88
Banta, Louis (CJ-51)
Hamilton, Cliff (CJ-62)
Kirkley, Johnny (CJ-64)
Manley, John (CJ-62)
Moseley, Charley (CJ-62) Deceased 4/8/14
Swift, Mick (CJ-56) Deceased 10/5/93
Ward, Hal (CJ-62)
Weissenback, Ed J (CJ-64) Deceased 12/27/71
also not listed but known,
Owen Lee Gossett (not William P. Gossett)
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Where are the FBI 302s about investigating known 727 jumpers and 727 airdrop crews? Would be good stuff for Colbert’s FOIA battle. Make the FBI produce the entire record.
Might Rackstraw have known about the SAT 727 airdrop tests out of Korat Thailand? If so how? Sheridan Peterson, through his smoke jumper connections could have learned about the 727 airdrops while in Vietnam. He mentioned seeing smoke jumpers he knew working for Air America in Vietnam.
377
Those 302s are mixed in the first ten batches of releases .... there's a ton of them. The FBI worked tips from various jumper clubs or contacted jumper organisations and worked through officials in each organization. From this they developed dozens of suspects to look at ...
Thanks Georger. The FBI actually did a decent job looking at possible jumper connections. They went to Fort Benning, they interviewed and DNA swabbed Sheridan Peterson. They pulled all USPA membership records. Hell, they even looked into the infamous Latin Skydivers of southern California.
377
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Another 727 jump video. Exit whooshes clearly audible.
https://www.facebook.com/RedMarauder/videos/1420894486643/
377
FWW,, Another 727 group jump video, no wooshes,,, the difference is the first video looked like a slide on exit, the second no slide. Maybe the woosh in the first vid was the divers landing on the slide..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0p02jI4o3g
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None of the WFFC 727 or DC 9 jet jumps had jumpers intentionally contacting the slide on exit. That would give you an unstable exit. All exits AFAIK were flying leaps from the cabin level floor right out the ventral opening. Interesting about the lack of audible whooshes on this soundtrack.
377
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Another 727 jump video. Exit whooshes clearly audible.
https://www.facebook.com/RedMarauder/videos/1420894486643/
377
FWW,, Another 727 group jump video, no wooshes,,, the difference is the first video looked like a slide on exit, the second no slide. Maybe the woosh in the first vid was the divers landing on the slide..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0p02jI4o3g
.
None of the WFFC 727 or DC 9 jet jumps had jumpers intentionally contacting the slide on exit. That would give you an unstable exit. All exits AFAIK were flying leaps from the cabin level floor right out the ventral opening. Interesting about the lack of audible whooshes on this soundtrack.
377
Are you sure,,
The deck and ramp cavity is shared with the third engine.. even stepping on it may cause the woosh sound.
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Where are the FBI 302s about investigating known 727 jumpers and 727 airdrop crews? Would be good stuff for Colbert’s FOIA battle. Make the FBI produce the entire record.
Might Rackstraw have known about the SAT 727 airdrop tests out of Korat Thailand? If so how? Sheridan Peterson, through his smoke jumper connections could have learned about the 727 airdrops while in Vietnam. He mentioned seeing smoke jumpers he knew working for Air America in Vietnam.
377
Those 302s are mixed in the first ten batches of releases .... there's a ton of them. The FBI worked tips from various jumper clubs or contacted jumper organisations and worked through officials in each organization. From this they developed dozens of suspects to look at ...
Thanks Georger. The FBI actually did a decent job looking at possible jumper connections. They went to Fort Benning, they interviewed and DNA swabbed Sheridan Peterson. They pulled all USPA membership records. Hell, they even looked into the infamous Latin Skydivers of southern California.
377
I am aware they looked at 'Latin' skydivers and their clubs - there are 302's about that. Just about every FBI office in every venue was doing active searches and processing people ... very intense activity.
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Are you sure,,
The deck and ramp cavity is shared with the third engine.. even stepping on it may cause the woosh sound.
actually, the engine is above the cabin and has a S duct system that runs above the stairs and exits above and in front of them..
got the whole thing wrong...engine in the back, intake on the top....
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That's a Lockheed L 1011 illustration.
377
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That's a Lockheed L 1011 illustration.
377
oops, wrong pic...
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That's a Lockheed L 1011 illustration.
377
oops, wrong pic...
Shutter got it right. That is a 727 illustration. Note the rear right engine mounted on the fuselage. The Lockheed 1011 had an engine mounted on each wing and then the rear fuselage mounted engine. Also, I don't remember a rear stairs on the 1011 and one is clearly shown in Shutter's illustration.
Also, I am not sure that I understand Shutter's explanation about where the center engine is mounted, but it is at the rear end of the S air intake duct and its exhaust hardware is the rearmost part of the fuselage proper.
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I screwed the whole post up...I was on the phone typing and didn't even notice I posted the drawing of an L-1011...
The engine would be in the back (looking out the stairs) in front and above the stairs...the intake is on the top with a S-duct system leading to the engine...
correct?
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I screwed the whole post up...I was on the phone typing and didn't even notice I posted the drawing of an L-1011...
The engine would be in the back (looking out the stairs) in front and above the stairs...the intake is on the top with a S-duct system leading to the engine...
correct?
Shutter you didn't screw anything up. Read my earlier post above. Also, your illustration clearly shows a T-tail aircraft. The Lockheed 1011 did NOT have a T-tail.
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I screwed the whole post up...I was on the phone typing and didn't even notice I posted the drawing of an L-1011...
The engine would be in the back (looking out the stairs) in front and above the stairs...the intake is on the top with a S-duct system leading to the engine...
correct?
Shutter you didn't screw anything up. Read my earlier post above. Also, your illustration clearly shows a T-tail aircraft. The Lockheed 1011 did NOT have a T-tail.
Yes, but before you were here I had posted the engine on top and the intake in the back..then I posted a pic thinking I had the 727 and didn't pay attention to what I did until 377 pointed it out..I just kept rambling along on the phone... :rofl:
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I screwed the whole post up...I was on the phone typing and didn't even notice I posted the drawing of an L-1011...
The engine would be in the back (looking out the stairs) in front and above the stairs...the intake is on the top with a S-duct system leading to the engine...
correct?
Shutter you didn't screw anything up. Read my earlier post above. Also, your illustration clearly shows a T-tail aircraft. The Lockheed 1011 did NOT have a T-tail.
Yes, but before you were here I had posted the engine on top and the intake in the back..then I posted a pic thinking I had the 727 and didn't pay attention to what I did until 377 pointed it out..I just kept rambling along on the phone... :rofl:
Okay, so to make a long story short, you modified your initial illustration. After checking the times, your modification is in fact after 377's post. :-[
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it was pretty bad...sometimes you just can't multi-task....plus I need a keyboard...got maple syrup on the keys....spacebar sticks,and a couple keys around double sometimes...not much got on it at all, but it did damage...have to pop the keys off and rinse them...
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My thinking was that perhaps the woosh sound in the 727 jump posted by 377 was the jumpers stepping on the modified deck/ramp... because the tail cavity behind the bulkhead is shared with the engine the sound from it could be impacted.
video 727 airstair cavity with the panels removed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tdb9ERqxJlk
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Maple syrup on the keyboard? SHUTTER!
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Maple syrup on the keyboard? SHUTTER!
Yes, the other morning I had the plate in front of me between the plate and me was the keyboard...one drip did it..I thought I got it all, but once it dried I realized it was still there :rofl: it's getting worse, it just posted this comment while I was typing...
switching keyboards.....red alert :rofl:
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I'm amazed at what ends up inside a keyboard. Mine is filled with peanut shell detritus. Hmmmm. Yes, I eat peanuts, but I don't sprinkle the shells all over the place.
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Anybody ever look into "Frederick W. Hahneman".. 1972 hijacking of 727 to Honduras
""TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras, June 3 (Reuters)—The man suspected of bailing out of a hijacked United States jet with $303,000 ransom over the jungles of Honduras a month ago surrendered to the United States Embassy here last night, Frederick W. Hahneman, 49 years old of Easton, Pa., told Ambassador Hewson A. Ryan that he was afraid and wanted to return to the United States. He Was flown to handcuffed and under guard today. An arrest warrant issued in Alexandria, Va., on Thursdny named Mr. Hahneman as the hijacker of an Eastern Airlines 727 that was seized after it left Allentown, Pa., On May 5 en route to Miami.
After stops in Washington, where 41 passengers were released, and New Orleans, where the aircraft was replaCed, the hijacker ordered the plane to fly south and left, it over Honduras.
Ambassador Ryan said that Mr Hahneman, who was born in Honduras, appeared to be afraid of something and had sought the embassy's protection. None of the ransom money had been recovered,. he said.
Mr. Hahneman walked into the embassy at 6 P.M. yesterday and said that he wanted to ‘return home. He apparently made no admission of guilt.
Mr. Hahneman told the Ambassador that he had fought in three wars — World War II, Korea and Vietnam. Federal authorities in Washington said that Ile had been an Air Force radar technician.
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Anybody ever look into "Frederick W. Hahneman".. 1972 hijacking of 727 to Honduras
""TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras, June 3 (Reuters)—The man suspected of bailing out of a hijacked United States jet with $303,000 ransom over the jungles of Honduras a month ago surrendered to the United States Embassy here last night, Frederick W. Hahneman, 49 years old of Easton, Pa., told Ambassador Hewson A. Ryan that he was afraid and wanted to return to the United States. He Was flown to handcuffed and under guard today. An arrest warrant issued in Alexandria, Va., on Thursdny named Mr. Hahneman as the hijacker of an Eastern Airlines 727 that was seized after it left Allentown, Pa., On May 5 en route to Miami.
After stops in Washington, where 41 passengers were released, and New Orleans, where the aircraft was replaCed, the hijacker ordered the plane to fly south and left, it over Honduras.
Ambassador Ryan said that Mr Hahneman, who was born in Honduras, appeared to be afraid of something and had sought the embassy's protection. None of the ransom money had been recovered,. he said.
Mr. Hahneman walked into the embassy at 6 P.M. yesterday and said that he wanted to ‘return home. He apparently made no admission of guilt.
Mr. Hahneman told the Ambassador that he had fought in three wars — World War II, Korea and Vietnam. Federal authorities in Washington said that Ile had been an Air Force radar technician.
He wasn't Cooper. After his landing location and amount of money he had with him was publicized, the local natives had a competition to see who could find him first. And Hahneman fear was that the natives would find him and kill him for the loot. So he hid the loot somewhere, all of it was later recovered, and turned himself in to the Ambassador for protection.
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Anybody ever look into "Frederick W. Hahneman".. 1972 hijacking of 727 to Honduras
""TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras, June 3 (Reuters)—The man suspected of bailing out of a hijacked United States jet with $303,000 ransom over the jungles of Honduras a month ago surrendered to the United States Embassy here last night, Frederick W. Hahneman, 49 years old of Easton, Pa., told Ambassador Hewson A. Ryan that he was afraid and wanted to return to the United States. He Was flown to handcuffed and under guard today. An arrest warrant issued in Alexandria, Va., on Thursdny named Mr. Hahneman as the hijacker of an Eastern Airlines 727 that was seized after it left Allentown, Pa., On May 5 en route to Miami.
After stops in Washington, where 41 passengers were released, and New Orleans, where the aircraft was replaCed, the hijacker ordered the plane to fly south and left, it over Honduras.
Ambassador Ryan said that Mr Hahneman, who was born in Honduras, appeared to be afraid of something and had sought the embassy's protection. None of the ransom money had been recovered,. he said.
Mr. Hahneman walked into the embassy at 6 P.M. yesterday and said that he wanted to ‘return home. He apparently made no admission of guilt.
Mr. Hahneman told the Ambassador that he had fought in three wars — World War II, Korea and Vietnam. Federal authorities in Washington said that Ile had been an Air Force radar technician.
He wasn't Cooper. After his landing location and amount of money he had with him was publicized, the local natives had a competition to see who could find him first. And Hahneman fear was that the natives would find him and kill him for the loot. So he hid the loot somewhere, all of it was later recovered, and turned himself in to the Ambassador for protection.
How was he eliminated?
The circumstances around the later money recovery are secret...
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/1974TEGUCI00913_b.html
https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/1973STATE088847_b.html
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http://napoleon130.tripod.com/id689.html
Airstair history.
377
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Found info dated 1964 that claims 727 flown "satisfactorily" with airstairs lowered. Does that mean flown in the air?
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1964/1964%20-%201860.html?search=airstairs
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Great find! Wonder if that got somebody thinking?
Maybe you didn't need to know about the Boeing (WA) or SAT (Thailand) airdrop tests to correctly conclude that a 727 could be jumped.
377
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Found info dated 1964 that claims 727 flown "satisfactorily" with airstairs lowered. Does that mean flown in the air?
https://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1964/1964%20-%201860.html?search=airstairs
The first 727 flight was on February 9, 1963 and the 727 was first used on revenue flights starting on February 1, 1964 with Eastern Airlines. This Flight magazine article is dated June 18, 1964.
So to make a long story short, this demonstration of flying with the aft stairs down was undoubtedly done by the Boeing flight test crews as part of the original certification of the 727.
And 377 is correct in that it would be common knowledge about the 727 being jumpable from the aft stairs after the Flight magazine article appeared. No need for any secret flight tests for OGOs after that point.
And this probably eliminates any possibility that Cooper had prior knowledge about how to operate the aft stairs. However, Cooper did know that the 727 could take off with the stairs down. This may also have been included in the Boeing flight tests but it is not mentioned in this specific Flight article.
But if Flight magazine had the information about the stairs, it is highly likely that every other major aviation publication had the information. Just check the 1963 and 1964 issues of Aviation Week. And I personally remember an excellent Aviation Week article on the technical aspects of the 727 in that time frame. I remember details on the wing performance but I can't remember anything on the aft stairs, which I would probably have ignored anyway.
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I had to give up on a T Bar money plant when I saw the news video footage verifying the chard field. Now I must face the fact that in 1964 it was made public that a 727 could be safely flown with the rear stairs extended. All the spook, smoke jumper and special ops theories, while still viable, become suddenly less compelling.
I think R99 nailed it, the flight with the stairs extended was part of the FAA Type Certification tests for the 727. But why was this particular configuration required? Seems that Boeing could have precluded it by locking out the stair extension capability once off the ground. A Cooper vane is the simplest solution, but landing gear strut "squat switches" could also have been used to sense liftoff and then used to lock out extension electromechanically.
Did Boeing deliberately seek the ability to lower stairs in flight as part of the original Type Certificate? If so why? Without that being done, a civil flight with stairs extended would require a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC). Our jumpships have STCs for flight with door removed.
DBC biases die hard. I am holding a funeral for one of my biases today.
377
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I had to give up on a T Bar money plant when I saw the news video footage verifying the chard field. Now I must face the fact that in 1964 it was made public that a 727 could be safely flown with the rear stairs extended. All the spook, smoke jumper and special ops theories, while still viable, become suddenly less compelling.
I think R99 nailed it, the flight with the stairs extended was part of the FAA Type Certification tests for the 727. But why was this particular configuration required? Seems that Boeing could have precluded it by locking out the stair extension capability once off the ground. A Cooper vane is the simplest solution, but landing gear strut "squat switches" could also have been used to sense liftoff and then used to lock out extension electromechanically.
Did Boeing deliberately seek the ability to lower stairs in flight as part of the original Type Certificate? If so why? Without that being done, a civil flight with stairs extended would require a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC). Our jumpships have STCs for flight with door removed.
DBC biases die hard. I am holding a funeral for one of my biases today.
377
It is possible that other aircraft with aft stairs, such as the DC-9, also had to demonstrate flight with the rear stairs down for FAA certification even if it had (and it reportedly did have) other safety features to prevent the stairs from being lowered in flight.
FAA certification tests involve a lot of testing just to cover all possibilities and you may never hear of those tests again.
Do we have the good luck to have pilots and engineers on this forum who have flown, or participated in, or just happen to know the full range of FAA tests that might apply to the aft stairs?
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Agree with R99 and 377, I found that article when looking for 727 test information..
I had always thought that Boeing must have tested those airstairs inflight before the first delivery... but never found specific info.
video about testing the 727 and 747
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uni6HVfthKs
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I had to give up on a T Bar money plant when I saw the news video footage verifying the chard field. Now I must face the fact that in 1964 it was made public that a 727 could be safely flown with the rear stairs extended. All the spook, smoke jumper and special ops theories, while still viable, become suddenly less compelling.
I think R99 nailed it, the flight with the stairs extended was part of the FAA Type Certification tests for the 727. But why was this particular configuration required? Seems that Boeing could have precluded it by locking out the stair extension capability once off the ground. A Cooper vane is the simplest solution, but landing gear strut "squat switches" could also have been used to sense liftoff and then used to lock out extension electromechanically.
Did Boeing deliberately seek the ability to lower stairs in flight as part of the original Type Certificate? If so why? Without that being done, a civil flight with stairs extended would require a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC). Our jumpships have STCs for flight with door removed.
DBC biases die hard. I am holding a funeral for one of my biases today.
377
It is possible that other aircraft with aft stairs, such as the DC-9, also had to demonstrate flight with the rear stairs down for FAA certification even if it had (and it reportedly did have) other safety features to prevent the stairs from being lowered in flight.
FAA certification tests involve a lot of testing just to cover all possibilities and you may never hear of those tests again.
Do we have the good luck to have pilots and engineers on this forum who have flown, or participated in, or just happen to know the full range of FAA tests that might apply to the aft stairs?
and the No.1 customer for these planes was ..... tests equal sales.
What the 727 lacked for its customers was a cloaking device! The Klingons had one!! Cooper had one! :rofl:
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I had to give up on a T Bar money plant when I saw the news video footage verifying the chard field. Now I must face the fact that in 1964 it was made public that a 727 could be safely flown with the rear stairs extended. All the spook, smoke jumper and special ops theories, while still viable, become suddenly less compelling.
I think R99 nailed it, the flight with the stairs extended was part of the FAA Type Certification tests for the 727. But why was this particular configuration required? Seems that Boeing could have precluded it by locking out the stair extension capability once off the ground. A Cooper vane is the simplest solution, but landing gear strut "squat switches" could also have been used to sense liftoff and then used to lock out extension electromechanically.
Did Boeing deliberately seek the ability to lower stairs in flight as part of the original Type Certificate? If so why? Without that being done, a civil flight with stairs extended would require a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC). Our jumpships have STCs for flight with door removed.
DBC biases die hard. I am holding a funeral for one of my biases today.
377
It is possible that other aircraft with aft stairs, such as the DC-9, also had to demonstrate flight with the rear stairs down for FAA certification even if it had (and it reportedly did have) other safety features to prevent the stairs from being lowered in flight.
FAA certification tests involve a lot of testing just to cover all possibilities and you may never hear of those tests again.
Do we have the good luck to have pilots and engineers on this forum who have flown, or participated in, or just happen to know the full range of FAA tests that might apply to the aft stairs?
and the No.1 customer for these planes was ..... tests equal sales.
What the 727 lacked for its customers was a cloaking device! The Klingons had one!! Cooper had one! :rofl:
Actually, passing mandatory tests equals FAA certification which is required for sales. :)
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I had to give up on a T Bar money plant when I saw the news video footage verifying the chard field. Now I must face the fact that in 1964 it was made public that a 727 could be safely flown with the rear stairs extended. All the spook, smoke jumper and special ops theories, while still viable, become suddenly less compelling.
I think R99 nailed it, the flight with the stairs extended was part of the FAA Type Certification tests for the 727. But why was this particular configuration required? Seems that Boeing could have precluded it by locking out the stair extension capability once off the ground. A Cooper vane is the simplest solution, but landing gear strut "squat switches" could also have been used to sense liftoff and then used to lock out extension electromechanically.
Did Boeing deliberately seek the ability to lower stairs in flight as part of the original Type Certificate? If so why? Without that being done, a civil flight with stairs extended would require a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC). Our jumpships have STCs for flight with door removed.
DBC biases die hard. I am holding a funeral for one of my biases today.
377
It is possible that other aircraft with aft stairs, such as the DC-9, also had to demonstrate flight with the rear stairs down for FAA certification even if it had (and it reportedly did have) other safety features to prevent the stairs from being lowered in flight.
FAA certification tests involve a lot of testing just to cover all possibilities and you may never hear of those tests again.
Do we have the good luck to have pilots and engineers on this forum who have flown, or participated in, or just happen to know the full range of FAA tests that might apply to the aft stairs?
and the No.1 customer for these planes was ..... tests equal sales.
What the 727 lacked for its customers was a cloaking device! The Klingons had one!! Cooper had one! :rofl:
Actually, passing mandatory tests equals FAA certification which is required for sales. :)
FAA requirements for civilian use .... any lesser or higher difference for military or govt use?
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I had to give up on a T Bar money plant when I saw the news video footage verifying the chard field. Now I must face the fact that in 1964 it was made public that a 727 could be safely flown with the rear stairs extended. All the spook, smoke jumper and special ops theories, while still viable, become suddenly less compelling.
I think R99 nailed it, the flight with the stairs extended was part of the FAA Type Certification tests for the 727. But why was this particular configuration required? Seems that Boeing could have precluded it by locking out the stair extension capability once off the ground. A Cooper vane is the simplest solution, but landing gear strut "squat switches" could also have been used to sense liftoff and then used to lock out extension electromechanically.
Did Boeing deliberately seek the ability to lower stairs in flight as part of the original Type Certificate? If so why? Without that being done, a civil flight with stairs extended would require a Supplemental Type Certificate (STC). Our jumpships have STCs for flight with door removed.
DBC biases die hard. I am holding a funeral for one of my biases today.
377
It is possible that other aircraft with aft stairs, such as the DC-9, also had to demonstrate flight with the rear stairs down for FAA certification even if it had (and it reportedly did have) other safety features to prevent the stairs from being lowered in flight.
FAA certification tests involve a lot of testing just to cover all possibilities and you may never hear of those tests again.
Do we have the good luck to have pilots and engineers on this forum who have flown, or participated in, or just happen to know the full range of FAA tests that might apply to the aft stairs?
and the No.1 customer for these planes was ..... tests equal sales.
What the 727 lacked for its customers was a cloaking device! The Klingons had one!! Cooper had one! :rofl:
Actually, passing mandatory tests equals FAA certification which is required for sales. :)
FAA requirements for civilian use .... any lesser or higher difference for military or govt use?
There are basic design differences for civilian and military aircraft.
However, generally speaking, civilian airliners and military transport aircraft are somewhat similar in their design philosophies and I think the C-141 was designed from the start to meet both military requirements and to also be certified by the FAA. I think this was the bright idea of Robert McNamara who was the Secretary of Defense in the Kennedy and Johnson administrations. Also, I think the total number of C-141s (or whatever the civilian version was called) sold to civilian users was less than 5.
Civilian aircraft that are already FAA certified are frequently purchased by the military and may not require any modifications to meet military requirements. However, there may be some modifications made for specific mission requirements.
It is more common for surplus military aircraft that are not FAA certified to be sold to the civilian market and the FAA determines what type certificate they can operate under and what they can be used for. This would include military fighter type aircraft. It takes a lot of paper shuffling and maybe a room full of bureaucrats and lawyers to work these matters out.
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Anybody ever look into "Frederick W. Hahneman".. 1972 hijacking of 727 to Honduras
""TEGUCIGALPA, Honduras, June 3 (Reuters)—The man suspected of bailing out of a hijacked United States jet with $303,000 ransom over the jungles of Honduras a month ago surrendered to the United States Embassy here last night, Frederick W. Hahneman, 49 years old of Easton, Pa., told Ambassador Hewson A. Ryan that he was afraid and wanted to return to the United States. He Was flown to handcuffed and under guard today. An arrest warrant issued in Alexandria, Va., on Thursdny named Mr. Hahneman as the hijacker of an Eastern Airlines 727 that was seized after it left Allentown, Pa., On May 5 en route to Miami.
After stops in Washington, where 41 passengers were released, and New Orleans, where the aircraft was replaCed, the hijacker ordered the plane to fly south and left, it over Honduras.
Ambassador Ryan said that Mr Hahneman, who was born in Honduras, appeared to be afraid of something and had sought the embassy's protection. None of the ransom money had been recovered,. he said.
Mr. Hahneman walked into the embassy at 6 P.M. yesterday and said that he wanted to ‘return home. He apparently made no admission of guilt.
Mr. Hahneman told the Ambassador that he had fought in three wars — World War II, Korea and Vietnam. Federal authorities in Washington said that Ile had been an Air Force radar technician.
Does anybody know how/why Frederick W. Hahneman was eliminated as a suspect??
Latin, swarthy,
fought in three wars — World War II, Korea and Vietnam... Air force radar technician, Tie particles?
Read that he wanted to fund a Communist group in Honduras..
Money was recovered but no details or info.. maybe secret deal made.
.
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R99 wrote: "It is more common for surplus military aircraft that are not FAA certified to be sold to the civilian market and the FAA determines what type certificate they can operate under and what they can be used for. This would include military fighter type aircraft. It takes a lot of paper shuffling and maybe a room full of bureaucrats and lawyers to work these matters out."
In the case of the Collings Foundation's F4 civilian Phantom fighter, I think it literally took an act of Congress.
I wrote this webpage about the largest military surplus aircraft ever to fly under civilian ownership, the HUGE Douglas C 133. Read it to discover the astonishingly low price paid by the buyer. The FAA absolutely did not want it to fly, citing serious structural integrity issues. The owners skirted the FAA by operating it as a "State Aircraft" in AK conducting cargo business for the state. FAA regs do not apply to State Aircraft. The exemption allows surplus fire tanker aircraft to operate. The C 133 guys flew plenty of commercial cargo that had dubious ties to AK state business. Supposedly the late Senator Ted Stevens kept the feds off their case.
The USAF did do a few rear tailgate HALO jumps from a C 133.
https://sites.google.com/site/boeing377/c133
377
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R99 wrote: "It is more common for surplus military aircraft that are not FAA certified to be sold to the civilian market and the FAA determines what type certificate they can operate under and what they can be used for. This would include military fighter type aircraft. It takes a lot of paper shuffling and maybe a room full of bureaucrats and lawyers to work these matters out."
In the case of the Collings Foundation's F4 civilian Phantom fighter, I think it literally took an act of Congress.
I wrote this webpage about the largest military surplus aircraft ever to fly under civilian ownership, the HUGE Douglas C 133. Read it to discover the astonishingly low price paid by the buyer. The FAA absolutely did not want it to fly, citing serious structural integrity issues. The owners skirted the FAA by operating it as a "State Aircraft" in AK conducting cargo business for the state. FAA regs do not apply to State Aircraft. The exemption allows surplus fire tanker aircraft to operate. The C 133 guys flew plenty of commercial cargo that had dubious ties to AK state business. Supposedly the late Senator Ted Stevens kept the feds off their case.
The USAF did do a few rear tailgate HALO jumps from a C 133.
https://sites.google.com/site/boeing377/c133
377
377, it is a small world.
In the early 1970s, I happened to be at the FAA headquarters in Washington on business with another USAF civilian engineer. There were several USAF military types at the FAA on assignments and they found out we were there and so we all got together for lunch. The senior USAF military officer at that lunch was a long time pilot of really big aircraft.
And he started telling us about his experiences flying the C-133. He said that it was the most flexible aircraft that he had ever seen. A C-133 had crashed into the Atlantic soon after leaving the USAF Dover, Delaware base and headed to Europe with a heavy load of cargo. Some time after that accident, he took off from Dover in a C-133 with a heavy load of cargo and also headed to Europe.
He said that soon after take off, the airplane started to vibrate and flex like something he had never seen before and the aircraft was almost uncontrollable. It was so bad that he had to tell the air traffic control people that he and his crew were so busy they couldn't talk to them. But they eventually got the situation under control and made it to Europe in one piece. I don't think he had any fond memories of the C-133.
A few years after that lunch, this senior pilot retired from the USAF and started to work for North American on the B-1A program. One day he and his crew were doing some very low altitude work and ended up abandoning their aircraft. They were flying one of the first five B-1s which had escape capsules, like the F-111s, instead of individual ejection seats. The capsule parachute did not get fully open before it hit the ground and the senior pilot was killed although there were survivors in the capsule with him. Ejection seats were retrofitted to earlier aircraft and used in the new production B-1s.
I think it was NBC Evening News that was preparing a story on this pilot when he was killed. The story was suppose to be aired a few days later but they did a nice story on him a day or so after his death.
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Does anybody know how/why Frederick W. Hahneman was eliminated as a suspect??
I don't, and it is a good question. I was surprised at how difficult it was to find information on Hahneman - and all the copycats for that matter - when I was writing my book.
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Small world indeed R99. I'm not sure I'd take a ride in a C 133, especially one surplused from the USAF as worn out. But if I had a rig and they'd let me jump... yeah probably.
The Fedex pilot I spoke with who got one flight in the right seat of that AK C 133, said he had never experienced anything close to that level of airframe vibration.
He had also flown 727s at Fedex and knew about Cooper. He LOVED the 727, said it was just a wonderful aircraft.
377
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Does anybody know how/why Frederick W. Hahneman was eliminated as a suspect??
I don't, and it is a good question. I was surprised at how difficult it was to find information on Hahneman - and all the copycats for that matter - when I was writing my book.
Need a FOIA on Frederick W. Hahneman...
There is scant information on this guy and nothing on WHY he was eliminated.. He was ex military and prior to hijacking, a radar technician working for Philco in Vietnam.. apparently Philco ran into problems and the Signal Corps had to redo their systems..
The more I pull the Hahneman thread the weirder it gets... so many similarities.. then the money was suddenly recovered with no details, no explanation. WAS THERE A DEAL CUT? He served less than 12 years.. His cousin Roberto Martinez Ordoñez was a prominent politician in Honduras and later with the UN. His Liberal party was in a coalition which was getting pushed out, rumour is Hahneman wanted the money to fund a revolution? Hijacking was in May '72 and in June the (American backed) Honduran military launched a coup.
"Aftermath: Hahneman was in custody but the money was not. He told authorities that he had deposited the ransom in "the Chinese Communist Bank in Hong Kong", via a mysterious Panamanian "contact".
On September 11, 1972, Hahneman waived his right to a jury trial and plead guilty to a charge of air piracy, kidnapping and extortion. He was sentenced to life imprisonment on September 29, 1972 in the US District Court in Alexandria, Va, and sent to the federal prison in Atlanta. As he left the federal building for prison, Hahneman was asked by a reporter what he'd done with the money. "None of your bloody business," he replied.
On May 8, 1973 the FBI announced they had recovered the $303,000 ransom. In the press release they said, "Upon recovery of the money a check was made of the National Crime Information Center, FBI Headquarters, Washington D.C., which determined the serial numbers tallied with the ransom money paid in connection with the hijacking.They provided no further details of how or where they recovered the money.
Bureau of Prisons records show Frederick Hahneman was paroled on March 13, 1984. On August 17, 1984 he was discharged. The Bureau has no further records of him."
(OCR text)
"Fridav, June 2, '72 DETROIT FREE PRESS I used to driver her down to the bank to cash the checks ha .sent her." The hijacker, who used the name of George Ames, told crewmen that he was suffering from a terminal illness. A spokesman for the Ameri-cus Hotel in Allentown said a man registered as George Ames stayed at the hotel for three days prior to the hijacking. Hahneman attended Lafayette College briefly in 1947, according to college records. that he would allow his wife to riase those two kids by herself. They said he was in the diplomatic corps and he sent her montly checks. He was home recently but only for a short while." Other neighbors said Mrs. Hahneman had been losng her eyesight for the past six years and now can only see light, making it impossible for her to leave the home alone. "She's a wonderful woman, never bitter about her sight," said Mrs. Mattes. "She never talked about her husband, but Hahneman was specifically charged with air piracy by use of a handgun and verbal threats, a crime punishable by death. He also was charged with intimidation and interference with flight crew members, assault with a dangerous weapon and with kidnaping of the crew. Kidnaping resulting in harm is punishable by death or by a maximum of life imprisonment if there are no' injuries. No injuries were reported on the hijacked flight. The FBI said Hahneman and 194fl, as a radar operator and a flight crew man. The records noted Hahneman's father died in New Orleans. Passport office records also showed Hahneman was born July 5, 1922, at Puerto Castilla, Honduras, and that hia occupation had been radio, electrical and communications engineer. Five of the Eastern crew members picked him out positively as the hijacker when shown Hahneman's photo-graph along with those of other white males. his wife, Mary, were married in 1948 and have two sons, Frederick William 3d, 20, and John Phillip, 17. A spokesman said the suspect had traveled widely and lived in a number of foreign countries. His last known employment was with Philco in Vietnam. IN EASTON, neighbors said Hahneman visited his family for the first time in several years shortly before the hijacking. Mrs. Richard Mattes said: "I always thought it strange of German extraction and was burie in New Orleans, that his mother was Honduran and that he was employed by the Philco Corp. The hijacker was said to have asked if the 727 was equipped with X-band radar and spoke knowledgeably of radar and aircraft as well as the geography of Central and South America. On the basis of this information, the FBI found a Frederick William Hahneman who had served in the Army from April 19, 1943, to March 19, "
More interesting details in Snowmman's post on DZ..
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3286950
Image of Hahneman (I only tinted the glasses he was wearing)
Latin appearance. Turkey neck. Slightly Marcelled hair on sides in other pics. Hair parted on Left. Age 49.
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https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/71920442/
(UPI)—Frederick W. Hahneman reportedly told an FBI agent he is strongly anticommunist, but that he channelled $303,000 ransom from an Eastern Air Lines hijacking through a Communist bank to finance causes he backs in Latin America. FBI agent Norman Bliss testified at a hearing Monday about his interview with Hahneman, who is accused of hijacking Eastern’s flight 175 May 5. The hijacker got the ransom money, parachutes, jumping gear and survival equipment in Washington, and bailed out over Honduras. Hahneman did not have the money when he surrendered to U.S. embassy officials in Honduras Saturday. "He said it would eventually wind up in the hands of the people with whom he was working for causes in Central and South America,” Bliss said. He said Hahneman told him the money would be channelled to the unidentified "causes” back through the United States. Bliss, who interviewed Hahneman while returning him to Miami, said Hahneman told him he landed near the town of Tela, Honduras, "took off all his gear, sat down and had a smoke and waited until daylight.” "He said that by Monday, the money was out of his hands,” Bliss said. At the end of the hearing, U.S. Magistrate Michael J. Osman recommended that Hahneman, 49, be taken to Alexandria, Va., to face charges of air piracy, kidnap ing and assault with a deadly weapon.
"Frederick W. Hahneman" aka "Frederick William Hahneman" b 1922 Honduras
father's name "William Frederick Hahneman"
military record search found only a "William H Hahneman" b 1927 Honduras
He enlisted in New Orleans. The hijacker "Frederick W. Hahneman" attended a Community College very close in Mississippi..
"FREDERICK W HAHNEMAN was born 05 July 1922, received Social Security number 427-34-7983 (indicating Mississippi) and, Death Master File says, died 17 December 1991."
So, is this the same person, dual/fake identity? a brother? Two William Hahneman's from Honduras in the US military at the same/close location?
Military record..
https://aad.archives.gov/aad/display-partial-records.jsp?f=3475&mtch=1&q=18299580&cat=all&dt=893&tf=F
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Does anybody know how/why Frederick W. Hahneman was eliminated as a suspect??
More interesting details in Snowmman's post on DZ..
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3286950
Image of Hahneman (I only tinted the glasses he was wearing)
Latin appearance. Turkey neck. Slightly Marcelled hair on sides in other pics. Hair parted on Left. Age 49.
Voila - its a match!
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Does anybody know how/why Frederick W. Hahneman was eliminated as a suspect??
More interesting details in Snowmman's post on DZ..
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3286950
Image of Hahneman (I only tinted the glasses he was wearing)
Latin appearance. Turkey neck. Slightly Marcelled hair on sides in other pics. Hair parted on Left. Age 49.
Voila - its a match!
Gobble Gobble..
Hahneman was an EE radar technician for Philco after his USAF time, exposure to Yttrium used in radar screens << researching this?
Hahneman was funding "political" causes in Honduras, could he have attempted more than the one hijacking?
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Does anybody know how/why Frederick W. Hahneman was eliminated as a suspect??
More interesting details in Snowmman's post on DZ..
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3286950
Image of Hahneman (I only tinted the glasses he was wearing)
Latin appearance. Turkey neck. Slightly Marcelled hair on sides in other pics. Hair parted on Left. Age 49.
Voila - its a match!
Gobble Gobble..
Hahneman was an EE radar technician for Philco after his USAF time, exposure to Yttrium used in radar screens << researching this?
Hahneman was funding "political" causes in Honduras, could he have attempted more than the one hijacking?
No record of him ever surfing on the Columbia. Local surfers would remember that.
Sea salt on the tie implies he was a surfer. Maybe a dentist on a submarine?
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Does anybody know how/why Frederick W. Hahneman was eliminated as a suspect??
More interesting details in Snowmman's post on DZ..
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3286950
Image of Hahneman (I only tinted the glasses he was wearing)
Latin appearance. Turkey neck. Slightly Marcelled hair on sides in other pics. Hair parted on Left. Age 49.
Voila - its a match!
Gobble Gobble..
Hahneman was an EE radar technician for Philco after his USAF time, exposure to Yttrium used in radar screens << researching this?
Hahneman was funding "political" causes in Honduras, could he have attempted more than the one hijacking?
No record of him ever surfing on the Columbia. Local surfers would remember that.
Sea salt on the tie implies he was a surfer.
Georger, any info on why Hahneman was eliminated as a suspect?? WE now have the tie particle profile...
Hahaneman, a radar technician resided in Easton Pa. Lycopodium Clavatum aka club moss on tie also found there.. map in link.
http://www.paferns.com/pdf/Lycopodium_clavatum.pdf
Also, 1967 NASA symposium on "ADVANCES IN DISPLAY MEDIA"
https://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19680012833.pdf
tie particles mentioned...
cerium, Lanthanum, yttrium, Phosphorus, cadmium, vanadium, zinc, barium sulphate, tungsten, cobalt, iron, antimony, tin, lead, copper, mercury, bismuth, silicon, pigment
Forward
"The symposium on Advanced Display Media was the eighth in a series of technical meetings sponsored by the Electronics Research Center, NASA. It was the first NASA symposium held on display media. The attendance of more than 350 engineers and scientists from universities, industrial organiza- tions, and Government agencies reflects the increasing interest in improving displays in aeronautical and space vehicles and the continuing university- industry-Government relationship in aerospace technology.
Many of the techniques in display media discussed at the symposium and documented herein have been made possible by the tremendous advances in electronic technology in recent years., The application of digital computers to drive new displays has opened new vistas for engineers and scientists to im- prove the information available for astronauts and pilots to make decisions.
A unique feature of this seminar was the combination of theoretical papers and demonstrations of experimental or breadboard display devices by 31 aerospace research organizations.
The Advanced Display Media Symposium was one of a Continuing pro- gram of conferences and seminars planned by the Elecotronics Research Cen- ter, NASA, to expedite interchange of electronics research and technology."
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His nose goes off the chart like the ears of McCoy...the guy looks like Duane Weber if we are to suggest similarities in people....
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His nose goes off the chart like the ears of McCoy...the guy looks like Duane Weber if we are to suggest similarities in people....
The Cooper sketch does have a large Honker. But not his large ears. The marcelled hair is there, but doesn't look like it's 'partable' to one side.
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I see an average nose on Cooper...this guy has 3 of them side by side...very wide nose..the marcelled hair is from a passenger who also claims the suit was rustic red I believe the color was..nobody else gave that color..specially the stews who had a reason to watch him...
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His nose goes off the chart like the ears of McCoy...the guy looks like Duane Weber if we are to suggest similarities in people....
Agree, that pic makes his nose look huge, but in this better pic his nose is the same size as the sketch, you can't exclude based on a bad pic.
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If one witness out of 30 plus gave a suggestion Cooper was female would you run with that assumption?
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His nose goes off the chart like the ears of McCoy...the guy looks like Duane Weber if we are to suggest similarities in people....
Agree, that pic makes his nose look huge, but in this better pic his nose is the same size as the sketch, you can't exclude based on a bad pic.
can you provide the picture without the faded glasses...also appears to have work on the nose...can you provide the link to the photo?
Nobody ever claimed Cooper having a large nose, or even wide...
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If one witness out of 30 plus gave a suggestion Cooper was female would you run with that assumption?
I am not making assumptions, you are..
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His nose goes off the chart like the ears of McCoy...the guy looks like Duane Weber if we are to suggest similarities in people....
Agree, that pic makes his nose look huge, but in this better pic his nose is the same size as the sketch, you can't exclude based on a bad pic.
can you provide the picture without the faded glasses...also appears to have work on the nose...can you provide the link to the photo?
Nobody ever claimed Cooper having a large nose, or even wide...
I wasn't referring to Coopers nose,, I was referring to the bad pic you posted of Hahneman that made his nose look huge.
original pic of Hahneman... with regular glasses (cropped only)
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His nose goes off the chart like the ears of McCoy...the guy looks like Duane Weber if we are to suggest similarities in people....
Agree, that pic makes his nose look huge, but in this better pic his nose is the same size as the sketch, you can't exclude based on a bad pic.
I'd say that photo is a dead ringer on the nose and ears. But surely they'd have had Mucklow view a Hahneman photo (I hope)
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before this gets out of hand..what color are his eye's, weight, height etc..I never assume anything...I like facts..I don't post photo's next to a sketch....
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His nose goes off the chart like the ears of McCoy...the guy looks like Duane Weber if we are to suggest similarities in people....
Agree, that pic makes his nose look huge, but in this better pic his nose is the same size as the sketch, you can't exclude based on a bad pic.
I'd say that photo is a dead ringer on the nose and ears. But surely they'd have had Mucklow view a Hahneman photo (I hope)
of course they did...we have to go through this every time though..even that wouldn't be enough for some...
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Flyjack why not divulge your foreign suspect instead of teasing us with Hahneman, unless it's him of course
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we all seem to agree at some point that the sketch could be wrong..posting pics beside the sketch is sketchy at most..same for makeup. if Cooper wore makeup to hide his appearance a photo wouldn't match the sketch...the description seems to be more accurate since most were similar. nobody even looks at two people claiming latin, or american Indian as a possibility..that alone implies a dark skin tone IMO..
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we all seem to agree at some point that the sketch could be wrong..posting pics beside the sketch is sketchy at most..same for makeup. if Cooper wore makeup to hide his appearance a photo wouldn't match the sketch...the description seems to be more accurate since most were similar. nobody even looks at two people claiming latin, or american Indian as a possibility..that alone implies a dark skin tone IMO..
Sure, a pic does not include or exclude unless way way off.. but why not look at all my other posts about Hahneman, lots of similarities which raise questions about his elimination by the FBI..
I am not claiming he WAS Cooper, I am claiming he is a very good suspect until he is eliminated and I have been trying to find out WHY he was eliminated.
I don't really have much more info than what I have shared here.
The facts are very very interesting, not conclusive. The most interesting is the fact that he was a radar tech and worked in an environment that could expose him to the found tie particles which were not known back when the FBI eliminated him.
Hijacked 727, jumped out the rear stairs in Honduras.
He was a chain smoker..
Honduran born, American father (latin w slightly marcelled hair)
USAF..
Philco radar tech in Vietnam.. exposure to tie particles
Club Moss (tie particles) found in Easton Pa, his residence
He walked 10 km to a road after landing in Honduras.
Looks slim built about 6' dark eyes.. (pic)
Was using the money to fund "political" activities in Honduras
The FBI recovered the money but would not release details..
Used a handgun but also claimed to have a bomb
was anti-communist
Cousin was high level politician
A pic of him escorted by FBI.. looks slim build and about 6' compared to agents?
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..posting pics beside the sketch is sketchy at most..
That’s “funny stuff” - the experts put them beside each other.
Forensic Art and Illustration
Karen T. Taylor (Author)
CRC Press; 1 edition (Sept. 15 2000) (ISBN-10: 0849381185) (ISBN-13: 978-0849381188)
Note that the much celebrated low-life terrorist scumbag “folk hero” D.B. Cooper ---- sorry ---- Dan Cooper - even graces the pages of this book.
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..posting pics beside the sketch is sketchy at most..
That’s “funny stuff” - the experts put them beside each other.
Forensic Art and Illustration
Karen T. Taylor (Author)
CRC Press; 1 edition (Sept. 15 2000) (ISBN-10: 0849381185) (ISBN-13: 978-0849381188)
Note that the much celebrated low-life terrorist scumbag “folk hero” D.B. Cooper ---- sorry ---- Dan Cooper - even graces the pages of this book.
agreed, I don't think the witnesses feel to hot about people celebrating him either. the guy threatened to blow up the plane...
The sketch is used to try and identify Cooper, but if you believe it's a photo, well you would be wrong..
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Frederick Hahneman showed a lot of violence during his hijacking pointing his gun into stomachs, wrapping a noose around the head of the pilot and moving the flight crew at gun point..he also demanded larger bills than $100 bills. Benson & Hedges were his favorite smokes...6 parachutes asked for, along with helmets..
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Frederick Hahneman showed a lot of violence during his hijacking pointing his gun into stomachs, wrapping a noose around the head of the pilot and moving the flight crew at gun point..he also demanded larger bills than $100 bills. Benson & Hedges were his favorite smokes...6 parachutes asked for, along with helmets..
Why 6 chutes !? Did he explain why?
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Frederick Hahneman showed a lot of violence during his hijacking pointing his gun into stomachs, wrapping a noose around the head of the pilot and moving the flight crew at gun point..he also demanded larger bills than $100 bills. Benson & Hedges were his favorite smokes...6 parachutes asked for, along with helmets..
Why 6 chutes !? Did he explain why?
only states that on Wikipedia I believe is where I read it....
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Wiki statement below....
No passengers were allowed to leave the plane while Eastern Airlines worked to meet Hahneman's demands.[10] These were $303,000 in cash, six parachutes, two bush knives, two jump suits, two crash helmets,[11] fuel, food[12] and two cartons of his favourite Benson and Hedges[13] cigarettes.[14]
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Wiki statement below....
No passengers were allowed to leave the plane while Eastern Airlines worked to meet Hahneman's demands.[10] These were $303,000 in cash, six parachutes, two bush knives, two jump suits, two crash helmets,[11] fuel, food[12] and two cartons of his favourite Benson and Hedges[13] cigarettes.[14]
and a trailer and a Jeep to haul it all - :rofl: What a dreamer.
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Wiki statement below....
No passengers were allowed to leave the plane while Eastern Airlines worked to meet Hahneman's demands.[10] These were $303,000 in cash, six parachutes, two bush knives, two jump suits, two crash helmets,[11] fuel, food[12] and two cartons of his favourite Benson and Hedges[13] cigarettes.[14]
and a trailer and a Jeep to haul it all - :rofl: What a dreamer.
I believe he got the money in hundreds and demanded higher value and got it...
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Wiki statement below....
No passengers were allowed to leave the plane while Eastern Airlines worked to meet Hahneman's demands.[10] These were $303,000 in cash, six parachutes, two bush knives, two jump suits, two crash helmets,[11] fuel, food[12] and two cartons of his favourite Benson and Hedges[13] cigarettes.[14]
and a trailer and a Jeep to haul it all - :rofl: What a dreamer.
I believe he got the money in hundreds and demanded higher value and got it...
Why didnt he just ask for a check? :)
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Why didnt he just ask for a check? :)
Good one :rofl:
Today he could go to a check cashing store...maybe even ask for a IOU :congrats:
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Hahneman wanted the money to fund political causes in Honduras..
At the time Honduras was a basket case.. political corruption, class warfare, clan warfare, organized crime, military incursions from Nicaragua. One month after Hahneman's hijacking the (US backed) military exercised a coup. The Soviets and Castro were trying to gain influence throughout Latin America and the CIA was very active.
Hahneman was anti-Communist and his cousin was a pro-US high level Honduran politician. I suspect that Hahneman or his cousin may have been CIA assets.. The ransom money was recovered with no explanation.
Initially, the FBI suggested Hahneman was to get the death penalty but served only 12 years.
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Why didnt he just ask for a check? :)
Good one :rofl:
Today he could go to a check cashing store...maybe even ask for a IOU :congrats:
Bitcoin, Etherium, etc. No bags, untraceable.
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https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/71920442/
(UPI)—Frederick W. Hahneman reportedly told an FBI agent he is strongly anticommunist, but that he channelled $303,000 ransom from an Eastern Air Lines hijacking through a Communist bank to finance causes he backs in Latin America. FBI agent Norman Bliss testified at a hearing Monday about his interview with Hahneman, who is accused of hijacking Eastern’s flight 175 May 5. The hijacker got the ransom money, parachutes, jumping gear and survival equipment in Washington, and bailed out over Honduras. Hahneman did not have the money when he surrendered to U.S. embassy officials in Honduras Saturday. "He said it would eventually wind up in the hands of the people with whom he was working for causes in Central and South America,” Bliss said. He said Hahneman told him the money would be channelled to the unidentified "causes” back through the United States. Bliss, who interviewed Hahneman while returning him to Miami, said Hahneman told him he landed near the town of Tela, Honduras, "took off all his gear, sat down and had a smoke and waited until daylight.” "He said that by Monday, the money was out of his hands,” Bliss said. At the end of the hearing, U.S. Magistrate Michael J. Osman recommended that Hahneman, 49, be taken to Alexandria, Va., to face charges of air piracy, kidnap ing and assault with a deadly weapon.
"Frederick W. Hahneman" aka "Frederick William Hahneman" b 1922 Honduras
father's name "William Frederick Hahneman"
military record search found only a "William H Hahneman" b 1927 Honduras
He enlisted in New Orleans. The hijacker "Frederick W. Hahneman" attended a Community College very close in Mississippi..
"FREDERICK W HAHNEMAN was born 05 July 1922, received Social Security number 427-34-7983 (indicating Mississippi) and, Death Master File says, died 17 December 1991."
So, is this the same person, dual/fake identity? a brother? Two William Hahneman's from Honduras in the US military at the same/close location?
Military record..
https://aad.archives.gov/aad/display-partial-records.jsp?f=3475&mtch=1&q=18299580&cat=all&dt=893&tf=F
Found info... "William H Hahneman" is Frederick W Hahneman's younger brother by 5 years.
William H Hahneman born Honduras 1927 served in the USAF.. naturalized US citizen.
Where did he go? Was he involved? Back to Honduras? Cooper?
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https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/71920442/
(UPI)—Frederick W. Hahneman reportedly told an FBI agent he is strongly anticommunist, but that he channelled $303,000 ransom from an Eastern Air Lines hijacking through a Communist bank to finance causes he backs in Latin America. FBI agent Norman Bliss testified at a hearing Monday about his interview with Hahneman, who is accused of hijacking Eastern’s flight 175 May 5. The hijacker got the ransom money, parachutes, jumping gear and survival equipment in Washington, and bailed out over Honduras. Hahneman did not have the money when he surrendered to U.S. embassy officials in Honduras Saturday. "He said it would eventually wind up in the hands of the people with whom he was working for causes in Central and South America,” Bliss said. He said Hahneman told him the money would be channelled to the unidentified "causes” back through the United States. Bliss, who interviewed Hahneman while returning him to Miami, said Hahneman told him he landed near the town of Tela, Honduras, "took off all his gear, sat down and had a smoke and waited until daylight.” "He said that by Monday, the money was out of his hands,” Bliss said. At the end of the hearing, U.S. Magistrate Michael J. Osman recommended that Hahneman, 49, be taken to Alexandria, Va., to face charges of air piracy, kidnap ing and assault with a deadly weapon.
"Frederick W. Hahneman" aka "Frederick William Hahneman" b 1922 Honduras
father's name "William Frederick Hahneman"
military record search found only a "William H Hahneman" b 1927 Honduras
He enlisted in New Orleans. The hijacker "Frederick W. Hahneman" attended a Community College very close in Mississippi..
"FREDERICK W HAHNEMAN was born 05 July 1922, received Social Security number 427-34-7983 (indicating Mississippi) and, Death Master File says, died 17 December 1991."
So, is this the same person, dual/fake identity? a brother? Two William Hahneman's from Honduras in the US military at the same/close location?
Military record..
https://aad.archives.gov/aad/display-partial-records.jsp?f=3475&mtch=1&q=18299580&cat=all&dt=893&tf=F
Found info... "William H Hahneman" is Frederick W Hahneman's younger brother by 5 years.
William H Hahneman born Honduras 1927 served in the USAF.. naturalized US citizen.
Where did he go? Was he involved? Back to Honduras? Cooper?
Here we go,
can't find any military record for Frederick W Hahneman b Honduras 1922, reports at the time of his hijacking claimed WW2 military.. I did find a record for his brother (attached) William H Hanheman b Honduras 1927. He went into the Air Corps.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDLMJumORA0
Question is, did the FBI mix them up in press releases?
Working theory, the Hahneman brothers did Norjak to fund political causes in Honduras. Both had German father and Honduran mother (mixed Latin). The younger brother from the US Air Corps played "Cooper".. He likely died in the jump but if he survived fled to Honduras, probably without the money (lost). Still in need of money for his political causes, 6 months later the older brother did a copycat hijacking. Lots of similarities except the higher level of violence in the second one. The FBI dismissed Frederick W Hahneman in Norjak without explanation, but what about his brother William H Hanheman.. he would have been 44 in 1971.
This guy is a ghost, I can' find anything on him, the older brother's death record is there (July 5, 1922 - December 17, 1991).
William H Hahneman seems to have disappeared... died, missing or fled to Honduras?
Find him and you might have found Cooper... in Honduras or in the ground in Wa State.. (IMO)
.
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The FBI released a photograph of Hahneman and described him as a while male, five feet eight inches tall, with brown hair and brown eyes, and with a scar on the back of his left hand.
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The FBI released a photograph of Hahneman and described him as a while male, five feet eight inches tall, with brown hair and brown eyes, and with a scar on the back of his left hand.
and his brother???
find him.
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Wiki statement below....
No passengers were allowed to leave the plane while Eastern Airlines worked to meet Hahneman's demands.[10] These were $303,000 in cash, six parachutes, two bush knives, two jump suits, two crash helmets,[11] fuel, food[12] and two cartons of his favourite Benson and Hedges[13] cigarettes.[14]
Offhand, the description of this hijacking is of a far "rougher" sounding suspect than Cooper. He pressed a gun into the stomachs of passengers who left their seats. He made the pilot wear a NOOSE, ffs. The hijacking was also done in a very different way - the passengers knew they were being hijacked (tactically, this could have been a mistake, and one Cooper avoided); the hijacker demanded the plane go back for larger bill denominations (this would make sense if he were Cooper and had lost the bulkier 305 loot in the jump); it sounds like the hijacker had direct contact with the pilot; used a gun rather than a bomb and was less concerned about minimizing time on the ground - re-configuring the bill denominations alone took 4 hours.
A skyjacker's a villain in damned near any script, but compared to Hahneman, Cooper sounds like a choirboy. However, they do have age in common - a very unusual age for skyjackers, as shutter has mentioned previously, and the description of him before the flight was similar to how ppl described Cooper. I don't think he's Cooper, but it's an interesting angle, and it would be interesting to know his rationale for the assortment of gear he wanted. Hahneman's wife's story is heart-rending. I hope her life got better in later years.
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He was the same height as Tina...she would know if someone was the same height as herself...this is a Kenny issue that is hard to get over...Fly has now directed his attention to the brother...I see too much violence with this guy, odds are his brother is about the same...they could be different though...
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He was the same height as Tina...she would know if someone was the same height as herself...this is a Kenny issue that is hard to get over...Fly has now directed his attention to the brother...I see too much violence with this guy, odds are his brother is about the same...they could be different though...
Yeah, I eliminate anyone Tina's height or under, too. I'm late to this suspect; do we know anything about the brother? Siblings can be quite different and still follow each other to some degree. Frederick H's motive, however, reminds us that Cooper's "grudge" and/or motivation for wanting a large sum of money could have been damned near anything. Politics as a motive has come up before. And there were so many of these causes back then. Someone was always funding revolutionaries somewhere.
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I see an average nose on Cooper...this guy has 3 of them side by side...very wide nose..the marcelled hair is from a passenger who also claims the suit was rustic red I believe the color was..nobody else gave that color..specially the stews who had a reason to watch him...
You just jogged my memory - what was that show where Bill Mitchell was interviewed by a British guy? He thought something - he couldn't quite pin it down - didn't "match" in Cooper's attire. Didn't Tina think Cooper's suit was brown with a black pinstripe? I had a brown suit with that kind of pin years ago - it looked awful although it was in style at the time - and it almost came off as having a reddish-brown quality. Anyway, though black is supposed to match everything, plenty of people don't like to wear brown and black together. Coop's overcoat was black, his suit likely dark brown. Maybe that was what Mitchell thought didn't quite match.
By the way, I only recently realized Cooper wasn't wearing a watch. He asked Mucklow for the time at one point (God knows why time mattered to him, but whatever) and none of the witnesses mentioned a watch. I would have expected most people to wear one in 71 (though you do hear of people who can't wear watches because they "stop on their wrist" - no idea if there is any science behind it.)
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I don't know if McCoy was wearing a watch, but he pretty much flew the plane from the back by asking for constant updates..don't know if he asked about the time but I would guess he had a watch..he was very critical in his timing...
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I see an average nose on Cooper...this guy has 3 of them side by side...very wide nose..the marcelled hair is from a passenger who also claims the suit was rustic red I believe the color was..nobody else gave that color..specially the stews who had a reason to watch him...
You just jogged my memory - what was that show where Bill Mitchell was interviewed by a British guy? He thought something - he couldn't quite pin it down - didn't "match" in Cooper's attire. Didn't Tina think Cooper's suit was brown with a black pinstripe? I had a brown suit with that kind of pin years ago - it looked awful although it was in style at the time - and it almost came off as having a reddish-brown quality. Anyway, though black is supposed to match everything, plenty of people don't like to wear brown and black together. Coop's overcoat was black, his suit likely dark brown. Maybe that was what Mitchell thought didn't quite match.
By the way, I only recently realized Cooper wasn't wearing a watch. He asked Mucklow for the time at one point (God knows why time mattered to him, but whatever) and none of the witnesses mentioned a watch. I would have expected most people to wear one in 71 (though you do hear of people who can't wear watches because they "stop on their wrist" - no idea if there is any science behind it.)
Where in the transcripts is Cooper asking Tina for the time? I missed that?
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I don't believe FWH was 5' 8".. he looks taller in this pic with agents escorting him, unless the agents are really short. Didn’t they have a minimum height back then. The 5’ 8" description was issued early when they were looking for a suspect. The FBI was the source but what was their source? The context for the 5' 8” was in regards to a suspect description so we can’t confirm its accuracy..
FWH was described as white but looks latin. His brother was also described as white in military records. The White Latino thing..
https://alchetron.com/cdn/frederick-hahneman-a140964b-301b-4a63-bea5-111022f0314-resize-750.jpeg
But, the character and aggressiveness during the hijacking plus the unknown reason that FBI eliminated him makes me look at his brother, WHH.
Plus, more reasons to look at his brother..
Just discovered he had a brother and his military enlistment record, he was in the Air Corps.
Motive, funding a “political” cause in Honduras could be a shared ideology with family. The “GRUDGE"
Brother was also half German, half Honduran. (Latin appearance)
Brother would have been 44 in 1971
His brother seems to have gone missing, or left the US for Honduras.
Their mother and her family remained in Honduras., never came to the US.
Both were born in Honduras and later naturalized US citizens.
If Norjak failed, he died or lost some/all of the money, FWH would still need the money for his “cause” in Honduras. Pulling off another hijacking himself six months later makes sense.
We just have to find the brother to confirm or exclude him.
Their father was German, mother Honduran.
Hijacker: Frederick William Hahneman b 1922 d 1991
Father's name: William Frederick Hahneman
Mother's name: Delia Pastore Ordóñez (she remained in Honduras, FWH briefly hid at her home)
Brother's name: William H Hahneman b 1927
Since, the father was German and their names were German, the middle H in the brother’s name is likely German.
Top german names in 1920’s starting with H
Hans
Heinz
Horst
Helmut / Helmuth
Herbert
Heinrich
Hermann
Harald
Harry / Harri
Henri / Henry
Hugo
Hubert
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Average height Latin America (see below)
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Average height Latin America (see below)
What does that have do with anything?
The Hahneman brother's father was German and the pic is of FBI agents in Miami..
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Yes, I was thinking of Honduras
Average height of a male from Germany is 5' 10"
I'm German (mainly) I'm just over 5' 8"
My brother is about 6' 1"
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Yes, I was thinking of Honduras
Average height of a male from Germany is 5' 10"
I'm German (mainly) I'm just over 5' 8"
My brother is about 6' 1"
I am 5' 8 3/4", I had always filled out 5' 8" on forms but as I got older I just rounded up and used 5' 9". If somebody looked back at my records they would conclude that I grew an inch as an adult.
The problem with the older hijacker Hahneman is that there is almost no info on him unlike other hijackers of the day. The FBI has said virtually nothing about him. He had a residence with wife and kids in Easton PA but only visited 3-4 times per year. Reports are that he was recently in Cambodia, Honduras and Guatemala as well as Vietnam. Worked for Philco as a radar tech consistent with tie particles. He claimed to be anti-communist but a Honduran paper claimed he stole the money to fund a Marxist group. Who knows. His cousin was a pro American Honduran politician but Honduras was a basket case of corruption. I suspect that his cousin was a CIA asset and Hahneman may have been at some level as well. The ransom money was mysteriously recovered in Miami with no details. IMO, there was CIA involvement to keep everything quiet. Some people really pushed the "Cooper died" narrative..
The fact that he was much more violent than Cooper and that the FBI eliminated him for some unknown reason strongly suggests he wasn't Cooper, but it isn't proof.
Individuals just don't commit crimes to fund political causes on their own, they are always part of a group. That brings in his brother..
Facts plus Assumptions = Theory
The theory,, The brothers together did NORJAK to fund their "cause" in Honduras with the younger being the hijacker. The younger brother was in the Air Corps, had experience navigating at night.. He wore the older brothers tie (radar tech). The "American Currency" and "grudge" "no accent" "latin/swarthy" even "marcelled" "age 40's" all makes sense... In the jump, he lost the money, probably separated due to weight and chute deployment impact (FWHahneman asked for higher denomination in his HJ). The younger brother may or may not have survived. Their Honduran "cause" still needed money. If the younger brother had died he obviously could't participate and if he survived he could be connected to NORJAK. So, the older FWHahaneman still with no money and a "cause" was left to carry off another hijacking six months later, but this time straight to Honduras.
To test this theory we need to find the younger brother. "William H Hahneman" seems to have vanished from the US...
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Yes, I was thinking of Honduras
Average height of a male from Germany is 5' 10"
I'm German (mainly) I'm just over 5' 8"
My brother is about 6' 1"
I am 5' 8 3/4", I had always filled out 5' 8" on forms but as I got older I just rounded up and used 5' 9". If somebody looked back at my records they would conclude that I grew an inch as an adult.
The problem with the older hijacker Hahneman is that there is almost no info on him unlike other hijackers of the day. The FBI has said virtually nothing about him. He had a residence with wife and kids in Easton PA but only visited 3-4 times per year. Reports are that he was recently in Cambodia, Honduras and Guatemala as well as Vietnam. Worked for Philco as a radar tech consistent with tie particles. He claimed to be anti-communist but a Honduran paper claimed he stole the money to fund a Marxist group. Who knows. His cousin was a pro American Honduran politician but Honduras was a basket case of corruption. I suspect that his cousin was a CIA asset and Hahneman may have been at some level as well. The ransom money was mysteriously recovered in Miami with no details. IMO, there was CIA involvement to keep everything quiet. Some people really pushed the "Cooper died" narrative..
The fact that he was much more violent than Cooper and that the FBI eliminated him for some unknown reason strongly suggests he wasn't Cooper, but it isn't proof.
Individuals just don't commit crimes to fund political causes on their own, they are always part of a group. That brings in his brother..
Facts plus Assumptions = Theory
The theory,, The brothers together did NORJAK to fund their "cause" in Honduras with the younger being the hijacker. The younger brother was in the Air Corps, had experience navigating at night.. He wore the older brothers tie (radar tech). The "American Currency" and "grudge" "no accent" "latin/swarthy" even "marcelled" "age 40's" all makes sense... In the jump, he lost the money, probably separated due to weight and chute deployment impact (FWHahneman asked for higher denomination in his HJ). The younger brother may or may not have survived. Their Honduran "cause" still needed money. If the younger brother had died he obviously could't participate and if he survived he could be connected to NORJAK. So, the older FWHahaneman still with no money and a "cause" was left to carry off another hijacking six months later, but this time straight to Honduras.
To test this theory we need to find the younger brother. "William H Hahneman" seems to have vanished from the US...
the·o·ry
noun
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
eg. "Darwin's theory of evolution"
a set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based.
"a theory of education"
an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action.
"my theory would be that the place has been seriously mismanaged"
-
Yes, I was thinking of Honduras
Average height of a male from Germany is 5' 10"
I'm German (mainly) I'm just over 5' 8"
My brother is about 6' 1"
I am 5' 8 3/4", I had always filled out 5' 8" on forms but as I got older I just rounded up and used 5' 9". If somebody looked back at my records they would conclude that I grew an inch as an adult.
The problem with the older hijacker Hahneman is that there is almost no info on him unlike other hijackers of the day. The FBI has said virtually nothing about him. He had a residence with wife and kids in Easton PA but only visited 3-4 times per year. Reports are that he was recently in Cambodia, Honduras and Guatemala as well as Vietnam. Worked for Philco as a radar tech consistent with tie particles. He claimed to be anti-communist but a Honduran paper claimed he stole the money to fund a Marxist group. Who knows. His cousin was a pro American Honduran politician but Honduras was a basket case of corruption. I suspect that his cousin was a CIA asset and Hahneman may have been at some level as well. The ransom money was mysteriously recovered in Miami with no details. IMO, there was CIA involvement to keep everything quiet. Some people really pushed the "Cooper died" narrative..
The fact that he was much more violent than Cooper and that the FBI eliminated him for some unknown reason strongly suggests he wasn't Cooper, but it isn't proof.
Individuals just don't commit crimes to fund political causes on their own, they are always part of a group. That brings in his brother..
Facts plus Assumptions = Theory
The theory,, The brothers together did NORJAK to fund their "cause" in Honduras with the younger being the hijacker. The younger brother was in the Air Corps, had experience navigating at night.. He wore the older brothers tie (radar tech). The "American Currency" and "grudge" "no accent" "latin/swarthy" even "marcelled" "age 40's" all makes sense... In the jump, he lost the money, probably separated due to weight and chute deployment impact (FWHahneman asked for higher denomination in his HJ). The younger brother may or may not have survived. Their Honduran "cause" still needed money. If the younger brother had died he obviously could't participate and if he survived he could be connected to NORJAK. So, the older FWHahaneman still with no money and a "cause" was left to carry off another hijacking six months later, but this time straight to Honduras.
To test this theory we need to find the younger brother. "William H Hahneman" seems to have vanished from the US...
the·o·ry
noun
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
eg. "Darwin's theory of evolution"
a set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based.
"a theory of education"
an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action.
"my theory would be that the place has been seriously mismanaged"
Ignoratio elenchi
(also known as: beside the point, misdirection [form of], changing the subject, false emphasis, the Chewbacca defense, irrelevant conclusion, irrelevant thesis, clouding the issue, ignorance of refutation)
Description: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.
-
Yes, I was thinking of Honduras
Average height of a male from Germany is 5' 10"
I'm German (mainly) I'm just over 5' 8"
My brother is about 6' 1"
I am 5' 8 3/4", I had always filled out 5' 8" on forms but as I got older I just rounded up and used 5' 9". If somebody looked back at my records they would conclude that I grew an inch as an adult.
The problem with the older hijacker Hahneman is that there is almost no info on him unlike other hijackers of the day. The FBI has said virtually nothing about him. He had a residence with wife and kids in Easton PA but only visited 3-4 times per year. Reports are that he was recently in Cambodia, Honduras and Guatemala as well as Vietnam. Worked for Philco as a radar tech consistent with tie particles. He claimed to be anti-communist but a Honduran paper claimed he stole the money to fund a Marxist group. Who knows. His cousin was a pro American Honduran politician but Honduras was a basket case of corruption. I suspect that his cousin was a CIA asset and Hahneman may have been at some level as well. The ransom money was mysteriously recovered in Miami with no details. IMO, there was CIA involvement to keep everything quiet. Some people really pushed the "Cooper died" narrative..
The fact that he was much more violent than Cooper and that the FBI eliminated him for some unknown reason strongly suggests he wasn't Cooper, but it isn't proof.
Individuals just don't commit crimes to fund political causes on their own, they are always part of a group. That brings in his brother..
Facts plus Assumptions = Theory
The theory,, The brothers together did NORJAK to fund their "cause" in Honduras with the younger being the hijacker. The younger brother was in the Air Corps, had experience navigating at night.. He wore the older brothers tie (radar tech). The "American Currency" and "grudge" "no accent" "latin/swarthy" even "marcelled" "age 40's" all makes sense... In the jump, he lost the money, probably separated due to weight and chute deployment impact (FWHahneman asked for higher denomination in his HJ). The younger brother may or may not have survived. Their Honduran "cause" still needed money. If the younger brother had died he obviously could't participate and if he survived he could be connected to NORJAK. So, the older FWHahaneman still with no money and a "cause" was left to carry off another hijacking six months later, but this time straight to Honduras.
To test this theory we need to find the younger brother. "William H Hahneman" seems to have vanished from the US...
the·o·ry
noun
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
eg. "Darwin's theory of evolution"
a set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based.
"a theory of education"
an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action.
"my theory would be that the place has been seriously mismanaged"
Ignoratio elenchi
(also known as: beside the point, misdirection [form of], changing the subject, false emphasis, the Chewbacca defense, irrelevant conclusion, irrelevant thesis, clouding the issue, ignorance of refutation)
Description: Attempting to redirect the argument to another issue to which the person doing the redirecting can better respond. While it is similar to the avoiding the issue fallacy, the red herring is a deliberate diversion of attention with the intention of trying to abandon the original argument.
OK! What ever ... :chr2: Why is the sky blue - why do fish swim? :conspiracy:
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Yes, I was thinking of Honduras
Average height of a male from Germany is 5' 10"
I'm German (mainly) I'm just over 5' 8"
My brother is about 6' 1"
I am 5' 8 3/4", I had always filled out 5' 8" on forms but as I got older I just rounded up and used 5' 9". If somebody looked back at my records they would conclude that I grew an inch as an adult.
The problem with the older hijacker Hahneman is that there is almost no info on him unlike other hijackers of the day. The FBI has said virtually nothing about him. He had a residence with wife and kids in Easton PA but only visited 3-4 times per year. Reports are that he was recently in Cambodia, Honduras and Guatemala as well as Vietnam. Worked for Philco as a radar tech consistent with tie particles. He claimed to be anti-communist but a Honduran paper claimed he stole the money to fund a Marxist group. Who knows. His cousin was a pro American Honduran politician but Honduras was a basket case of corruption. I suspect that his cousin was a CIA asset and Hahneman may have been at some level as well. The ransom money was mysteriously recovered in Miami with no details. IMO, there was CIA involvement to keep everything quiet. Some people really pushed the "Cooper died" narrative..
The fact that he was much more violent than Cooper and that the FBI eliminated him for some unknown reason strongly suggests he wasn't Cooper, but it isn't proof.
Individuals just don't commit crimes to fund political causes on their own, they are always part of a group. That brings in his brother..
Facts plus Assumptions = Theory
The theory,, The brothers together did NORJAK to fund their "cause" in Honduras with the younger being the hijacker. The younger brother was in the Air Corps, had experience navigating at night.. He wore the older brothers tie (radar tech). The "American Currency" and "grudge" "no accent" "latin/swarthy" even "marcelled" "age 40's" all makes sense... In the jump, he lost the money, probably separated due to weight and chute deployment impact (FWHahneman asked for higher denomination in his HJ). The younger brother may or may not have survived. Their Honduran "cause" still needed money. If the younger brother had died he obviously could't participate and if he survived he could be connected to NORJAK. So, the older FWHahaneman still with no money and a "cause" was left to carry off another hijacking six months later, but this time straight to Honduras.
To test this theory we need to find the younger brother. "William H Hahneman" seems to have vanished from the US...
the·o·ry
noun
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
eg. "Darwin's theory of evolution"
a set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based.
"a theory of education"
an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action.
"my theory would be that the place has been seriously mismanaged"
Ok, I know this is off topic, but I've found that people often use the word "theory" when they really mean "hypothesis". But, the definition you put in implies the definition of "theory" has expanded to include "hypothesis".
Now, the next time someone uses "fortuitous" when they mean "fortunate", I'll post the same thought.......
-
Yes, I was thinking of Honduras
Average height of a male from Germany is 5' 10"
I'm German (mainly) I'm just over 5' 8"
My brother is about 6' 1"
I am 5' 8 3/4", I had always filled out 5' 8" on forms but as I got older I just rounded up and used 5' 9". If somebody looked back at my records they would conclude that I grew an inch as an adult.
The problem with the older hijacker Hahneman is that there is almost no info on him unlike other hijackers of the day. The FBI has said virtually nothing about him. He had a residence with wife and kids in Easton PA but only visited 3-4 times per year. Reports are that he was recently in Cambodia, Honduras and Guatemala as well as Vietnam. Worked for Philco as a radar tech consistent with tie particles. He claimed to be anti-communist but a Honduran paper claimed he stole the money to fund a Marxist group. Who knows. His cousin was a pro American Honduran politician but Honduras was a basket case of corruption. I suspect that his cousin was a CIA asset and Hahneman may have been at some level as well. The ransom money was mysteriously recovered in Miami with no details. IMO, there was CIA involvement to keep everything quiet. Some people really pushed the "Cooper died" narrative..
The fact that he was much more violent than Cooper and that the FBI eliminated him for some unknown reason strongly suggests he wasn't Cooper, but it isn't proof.
Individuals just don't commit crimes to fund political causes on their own, they are always part of a group. That brings in his brother..
Facts plus Assumptions = Theory
The theory,, The brothers together did NORJAK to fund their "cause" in Honduras with the younger being the hijacker. The younger brother was in the Air Corps, had experience navigating at night.. He wore the older brothers tie (radar tech). The "American Currency" and "grudge" "no accent" "latin/swarthy" even "marcelled" "age 40's" all makes sense... In the jump, he lost the money, probably separated due to weight and chute deployment impact (FWHahneman asked for higher denomination in his HJ). The younger brother may or may not have survived. Their Honduran "cause" still needed money. If the younger brother had died he obviously could't participate and if he survived he could be connected to NORJAK. So, the older FWHahaneman still with no money and a "cause" was left to carry off another hijacking six months later, but this time straight to Honduras.
To test this theory we need to find the younger brother. "William H Hahneman" seems to have vanished from the US...
the·o·ry
noun
a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained.
eg. "Darwin's theory of evolution"
a set of principles on which the practice of an activity is based.
"a theory of education"
an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action.
"my theory would be that the place has been seriously mismanaged"
Ok, I know this is off topic, but I've found that people often use the word "theory" when they really mean "hypothesis". But, the definition you put in implies the definition of "theory" has expanded to include "hypothesis".
Now, the next time someone uses "fortuitous" when they mean "fortunate", I'll post the same thought.......
or theory ~ supposition ~ speculation. Formal vs informal.
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Any background for the creation of the wax DB Cooper head shown at Washington Museum??
Looks exactly like Hahneman.. (or brother?)
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Gobble, Gobble... Hahneman has a turkey neck, marcelled hair... half Honduran = white latin
Right pic one month after hijacking face looks thinner, left pic maybe six months later, he looks heavier in the face.
The higher level of violence during his hijacking is troubling though... other than that he fits Cooper's profile and tie particle evidence (radar tech), chain smoker although different brand but those cigarettes disappeared..
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More on the Coup and Hahneman's cousin..
"Hijacker Once Planned Honduras Coup ALLENTOWN, Pa, (AP)- jfcn Eastern Airlines jetliner for $308,000 ransom once spoke of seizing power in Honduras, the Central American country where he landed after bailing out of the plane, according to the Allentown Morning Call. - the newspaper said today ilhat Frederick W. Hahneman, 49, of Easton, Pa., was overheard telling the Honduran ambassador to the United Nations that he might want to become chief of police in Honduras. The ambassador, Hahneman reportedly said, * would also participate in a -', new government—as president. Hahneman was born in Tegucigalpa, the capital city of Honduras. He surrendered to authorities there on June 3, nearly a month after the hijacking and was recently indicted on air piracy charges by a grand jury in Virginia. According to federal spokesmen, Hahneman has told investigators that some of the money he allegedly extorted is in a Communist Chinese bank in Hong Kong, and the rest is 'on- its way to "causes" he supports. The Allentown Call said it learned more of Hahneman's purported motives from Robert Kaminsky, manager of the Beverly Hotel, New York City. Kaminsky told the Call that 'Hahneman frequently visited the ambassador, who is his cousin, at the hotel on east 50th street. The diplomat stayed there while the U.N. -.was in session. After identifying a photograph of Hahneman, the hotel manager said he was the man he spoke with at the hotel desk last January. Kaminsky said that during an idle conversation, also, witnessed by desk clerk Salvatore Patti Hahneman began to deplore conditions in Honduras. He called the country ripe for rebellion, according to the hotel man. "The people will someday overthrow the government," Kaminsky quoted Hahneman as saying. Hahneman then said, according to Kaminsky: "I'll be police chief and my cousin will be president." The newspaper said it also learned that ambassador Ordonez once attempted to purchase snake bite antitoxin from the hotel pharmacy, but demurred on the request after the pharmacist asked him for a doctor's prescription. Ordonez's cousin, (Hahneman) an Air Corps radar technician during World War II, told authorities when he surrendered that he feared for his life. He had been pursued by several platoons of Honduran troops through thick jungle. Hahneman is scheduled to be arraigned Monday in U.S. District Court, Alexandria, Va."
"WASHINGTON (UPI) — The U.S. attorney handling the case said Friday he likely would seek the death penalty if an international manhunt turns up a mysterious engineer accused of parachuting from a hijacked airliner over Honduras with $303,000 in ransom. FBI agents and Honduran officials were pressing their search for a man identified as Frederick William Hahneman, 49, a Honduran-born American engineer from Easton, Pa., who last worked for Philco Corp. in Vietnam."
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in reply to flyjack
heres some more about hahneman
https://books.google.com/books?id=KSEzAAAAIAAJ&q=%22frederick+william+hahneman%22&dq=%22frederick+william+hahneman%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVuK7ckcfaAhVGkpAKHZltAy0Q6AEIMzAC
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in reply to flyjack
heres some more about hahneman
https://books.google.com/books?id=KSEzAAAAIAAJ&q=%22frederick+william+hahneman%22&dq=%22frederick+william+hahneman%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjVuK7ckcfaAhVGkpAKHZltAy0Q6AEIMzAC
Thanks, very interesting. CREATES MORE QUESTIONS... What is going on here... was Hahneman a CIA asset/contractor?
George Ames was the name Hahneman used for his hijacking.. Hahneman told a neighbour he was in Guatemala and he was a radar technician/engineer.. The ransom money was recovered in Miami. I sense this is the tip of something much bigger..
FULL PAGE..
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b4351138;view=1up;seq=593
"Mr. Nedzi. Do you know anybody by the name of George Ames, Mr. Hunt?
Mr. Hunt. Is that a true name or a pseudonym ? No name comes to mind. I can give you off the top of my head "No."
Mr. Nedzi. When you worked in Central America, did you ever have occasion to come in contact with individuals working on electronic installation contracts in Guatemala, or any place else in Central America ?
Mr. Hunt. I may have. I can't think of any. I was involved in the operation "Overthrow Arvens" in Guatemala, you know. We used the [deleted] subsidiary as a part of our communications network. If you could be more specific. That is the only connection I can think of, sir.
And I don't know the names of anybody after this lapse of time. Mr. Nedzi. Do you know anyone by the name of Frederick William Hahneman?
Mr. Hunt. Hahneman ?
Mr. Nedzi. Yes, H-a-h-n-e-m-a-n.
Mr. Hunt. No, sir. Not to the best of my recollection.
Mr. Nedzi. Do you have any knowledge of the May 5, 1972, hijacking of the Eastern Airlines flight from Allentown, Pa., to Washington, to Miami.
Mr. Hunt. No, sir.
Mr. Nedzi. Do you know whether Frank Sturgis was involved while in Honduras or elsewhere in Central America with Hahneman or George Ames ?
Mr. Hunt. I have no knowledge of either of the names. I have no knowledge of Frank Sturgis' activities there.
Mr. Nedzi. Do you have any questions ?
Mr. Hogan. No, sir.
Mr. Nedzi. Were you involved in any operations of any kind in Miami before the Democratic National Convention?
Mr. Hunt. I was involved in the contemplation of operations that might at one time come to pass, but which did not. Operations per se, no, sir, aside from an assist I gave to Segretti. Mr. Nedzi. What did that consist of ?
Mr. Hunt. That consisted of his requirement for a printer who could be trusted, and through Mr. Barker I got the name of the printer, and that name was passed on to him and I believe he used that printer. What they printed, I don't know.
Mr. Nedzi. Do you have any questions ? Mr. Slatinshek. No. "
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You're welcome flyjack
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You're welcome flyjack
Looking at the CIA anti communist ops in Guatemala,, WOW.. links to Vietnam.. Hahneman was also in Vietnam.
If Hahneman was a CIA operative/contractor that would explain the lack of information about the hijacking and a "possible" coverup or "suppression" campaign.
CIA in Guatemala
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_activities_in_Guatemala
1960s
Prior to President Johnson's term in 1963, Dwight Eisenhower preached about how there was a time that America's end goal was to rid of communist governments. His wording in 1963 proved that it seemed that at least in this former president's opinion that the nation was beginning to go a different direction.[6] President Lyndon B. Johnson wanted to invade Guatemala with private military contractors.[35] In support of this, CIA Director William Raborn was tasked with finding evidence to support the President's belief that Guatemala was a Cuban puppet state. Raborn was unsuccessful in finding such evidence. In late 1965 Ambassador Mein requested help from the United States with fighting terrorist and kidnapping in Guatemala.[36] John P. Longan was selected for this job and to create a plan. Longan set up a meeting with Guatemala's Ambassador, chief of station, CAS, and chief public safety advisor to present his plan of action to high ranking police and military officials, including the chiefs of the Judicial Police, the National Police (PN) and the Treasury Guard (GH). After multiple meetings these agencies obviously were distrustful of each other and could not agree upon a plan of action. Longan advised Guatemalan these officials to establish "frozen area plans" for police raids (cordon and search) and the development of a "joint operations plan" for inter-agency coordination.[36]
A major feature of the new pacification strategy was the synchronization of the military and police forces in carrying out extralegal counter-terror activities. With money and support from US advisors, President Enrique Peralta Azurdia established a Presidential Intelligence Agency in the National Palace, under which a telecommunications database known as the Regional Telecommunications Center or La Regional existed, linking the National Police, the Treasury Guard, the Judicial Police, the Presidential House and the Military Communications Center via a VHF-FM intracity frequency. La Regional also served as a depository for the names of suspected "subversives" and had its own intelligence and operational unit attached to it.[37] This network was built on the 'Committees against Communism' created by the Central Intelligence Agency after the coup in 1954.[38]
The Guatemalan army general staff launched "Operation Limpieza" -Operation Cleanup-, an urban counterinsurgency program under the command of Colonel Rafael Arriaga Bosque. This program coordinated the activities of all of the country's main security agencies (including the Army, the Judicial Police and the National Police) in both covert and overt anti-guerrilla operations. Under Arriaga's direction, the security forces began to use extralegal tactics against the PGT.[39] In 1966, the CIA station in Guatemala addressed the capture and execution of five people who reportedly had entered into Guatemala from Mexico, illegally. These men were tortured for two days and then executed by security officers.[40] Among the victims was the leader of the Partido Guatemalteco de Trabajadores (PGT), Victor Manuel Gutiérrez . These actions occurred within the context of a series of coordinated joint raids by combined forces of the Judicial Police and the G-2 (the operational unit of military intelligence, S-2) in which 28 PGT members and associates were seized by Guatemalan security forces in early March 1966 and subsequently vanished. The incident became famous as the first case of mass "disappearance" in Guatemala's history and one of the first uses of forced disappearances as a counterinsurgency tactic in Latin America.
In July 1966, president Julio Caesar Mendez Montenegro signed a pact which gave the army and security services the green-light to apply "any means necessary" in fighting insurgents and internal opposition groups. The Army General Staff subsequently assumed all control over the security forces and appointed Vice-Defense Minister, Col. Manuel Francisco Sosa Avila as the main "counterinsurgency coordinator". In addition, the Army General Staff and the Ministry of Defense took control of the Presidential Intelligence Agency - and by extension La Regional and the entire affiliated intelligence network - and renamed it the Guatemalan National Security Service (Servicio de Seguridad Nacional de Guatemala - SSNG).[41]
Within the framework of CIA supported counterinsurgency, a close relationship developed between right-wing paramilitary organizations and the security structures. Many civilian vigilantes linked to the MLN and right-wing paramilitary groups were simply absorbed by the Guatemalan Army G-2 in subsequent years. They operated as confidenciales or "military commissioners" and were attached to local army garrisons throughout the country. One Guatemalan high official acknowledged that over 3,000 MLN members collaborated with the Army. The most notorious of the right-wing paramilitary groups operating during the 1960s was the MANO, also known as the Mano Blanca ("White Hand"). Initially formed by the extreme-right MLN party as a paramilitary front in June 1966 to prevent President Méndez Montenegro from taking office, the MANO was quickly coopted by the army as an auxiliary force.[42] The MANO - while being the only death squad formed autonomously from the government - had a largely military membership, and received substantial funding from wealthy landowners.[43] The leader of the MLN and its paramilitary arm was Mario Sandoval Alarcon (later vice-president from 1974–78). Sandoval Alarcon was a paid CIA asset for at least 30 years, starting in the 1950s.[44] The MANO also received information from military intelligence through La Regional, with which it was linked to the Army General Staff and all of the main security forces.[45]
In January 1967 a special counter-terror unit labeled the Special Commando Unit of the Guatemalan Army (SCUGA) under the command of Colonel Maximo Zepeda was created.[46] The CIA Station in Guatemala planned to expand its operations to include an intelligence-gathering network through SCUGA. The purpose of SCUGA was to collect information through the arrests and interrogation of what they deemed to be revolutionaries of communism. It carried out 'special assignments' that included abduction and assassinations of local authorities that the CIA deemed disruptive and "real and alleged communists."[47] The CIA itself referred to the SCUGA as a "government-sponsored terrorist organization...used primarily for assassinations and political abductions"[48]
In March 1967, after Vice-Defense Minister and counterinsurgency coordinator Col. Francisco Sosa Avila was named director-general of the National Police, a special counterinsurgency unit of the National Police known as the Fourth Corps was created to carry out extralegal operations alongside the SCUGA.[49] The Fourth Corps was an illegal fifty-man assassination squad which operated in secrecy from other members of the National Police, taking orders from Col. Sosa and Col. Arriaga.[50]
Links with the Phoenix Program
During the period of counterinsurgency and police militarization under Col. Sosa Avila, the PN worked closely with the USAID Office of Public Safety (OPS), which largely operated as a front for the CIA. Between 1966 and 1974, the OPS help militarize the PN and provided extensive training to Guatemalan security services in areas of counterinsurgency, intelligence gathering and interrogation. By 1970, more than 30,000 Guatemalan police officers had received some form of OPS training.[51]
US government Biographic Register and Foreign Service Lists reveal that many of the same American OPS and other functionaries operating in Guatemala were also involved in Vietnam, particularly in Civil Operations and Revolutionary Development Support (CORDS).[52] A component of CORDS was the CIA's Phoenix Program (1968–72), which was in part a covert program of selective assassination aimed at eradicating the Vietcong's civilian support base which killed at least 41,000 suspected VC sympathizers and cadre according to South Vietnamese government statistics.[53]
Central to Phoenix was the use of death squads; also known as "killer-teams", "counter-terror teams" or more euphemistically as Provincial Reconnaissance Units (PRUs). These units would kill or abduct ("neutralize") suspected NLF cadre and synpathizers. Suspects were then taken to interrogation centers where they were tortured in an attempt to gain intelligence on VC activities in the area.[54] The information extracted was used to task the death squads with further killings.[54] An analogous pattern of selective terror was set in motion in Guatemala in the mid-1960s, where operational intelligence was extracted from captured suspects, collated, and used to designate additional targets for liquidation units. When asked about the origins of the death squads in Guatemala in a subsequent interview, General Oscar Humberto Mejia Victores (military president from 1983–86) stated that they were initiated "in the 1960s with the CIA".[55]
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Frederick William Hahneman
full image..
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Attempted to determine Hahneman's height from the pic..
The car he is next to is a late 60's Volvo 144, matched the angle to a full image of the same model to get the full roofline.
The Volvo model 144 is 56.7 inches in height.. using measurements and ratio's to compare Hahneman to the Volvo, he is about 6' tall. This isn't 100% accurate but puts him within Cooper's height range..
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Very car astute. The door handles distinguish it from the later 240 series Volvos.
377
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Hahneman was a radar technician/engineer...
Yttrium was used in Radar Technology... Cooper's tie contained Yttrium
.
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Attempted to determine Hahneman's height from the pic..
The car he is next to is a late 60's Volvo 144, matched the angle to a full image of the same model to get the full roofline.
The Volvo model 144 is 56.7 inches in height.. using measurements and ratio's to compare Hahneman to the Volvo, he is about 6' tall. This isn't 100% accurate but puts him within Cooper's height range..
The biggest thing is that Hanneman's demeaner was much different than Cooper's. I hope when they release more FBI files that the well known suspects have their name attached to the the files the way McCoy's was. It would be interesting to see what eliminated him from a suspect list.
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https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/41139715/
"Pa ( D P I ) -- The residents on the 100 block of James Street a quiet area in this eastern Pennsylvania community have always looked upon Fredenck William Hdhnemaji as a mysterious figure They wondered what kind of man would leave his blind wife alone to raise their two sons Some felt he had some kind of diplomatic position because he stayed away from the second floor apartment where his family lives for months -- even years at a tune Hahneman, 49, has been charged by the FBI with hijacking an Eastern Airlines jet just after it took off from the AJlentown-Easton- Bethlehem Airport on May 6 The hijacker bailed out of another plane over Honduras with $303,000 ransom He parachuted to the ground and still hasn't been located * His neighbuis said Hahneman made one of his infrequent visits home just before the jet was hijacked One said Mrs Hahneman asked him to come home because one-of the boys was having some kind of trouble William Small, who lives across the street, probably knows more than the other neighbors about the fugitive He said he talked with Hahneman five years ago "One time my wife and I talked to him I think he said he worked for Philco-Bendix He talked about how he was putting rockets on helicopter," Small said. Small said Hahneman "never had any friends here and no one ever knew him He d go away again Another neighbor, Mrs Richard Mettes said, ' I hardly even saw the man But I always thought it strange that he would allow his wife to raise thoe two kids by herself The neighbors became acquainted with Mary Jane Hahneman, the fugitive s wife when the couple and their children moved into the apartment in 1960 They said Mrs Hahneman had been losing her sight for the past six years "It was always a mystery what Mr Hahneman did," Mrs Anna Gately said "We were under the impression that he must have had a very nice position He was always well dressed “ The woman said Mrs Hahneman, "had always been my Idea of someone who can cope with trouble " She said the blind woman raised her two sons, John, 17, and Frederick Jr , 21, alone "She never talked about her husband She's a wonderful woman, never bitter about her sight," Mrs Gately said She added that she often drove her to the bank to cash her husband's paycheck, which he apparently had .."
Bendix made many rockets, they used Yttrium, mid 60's rockets on helicopters??
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https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/41139715/
"Pa ( D P I ) -- The residents on the 100 block of James Street a quiet area in this eastern Pennsylvania community have always looked upon Fredenck William Hdhnemaji as a mysterious figure They wondered what kind of man would leave his blind wife alone to raise their two sons Some felt he had some kind of diplomatic position because he stayed away from the second floor apartment where his family lives for months -- even years at a tune Hahneman, 49, has been charged by the FBI with hijacking an Eastern Airlines jet just after it took off from the AJlentown-Easton- Bethlehem Airport on May 6 The hijacker bailed out of another plane over Honduras with $303,000 ransom He parachuted to the ground and still hasn't been located * His neighbuis said Hahneman made one of his infrequent visits home just before the jet was hijacked One said Mrs Hahneman asked him to come home because one-of the boys was having some kind of trouble William Small, who lives across the street, probably knows more than the other neighbors about the fugitive He said he talked with Hahneman five years ago "One time my wife and I talked to him I think he said he worked for Philco-Bendix He talked about how he was putting rockets on helicopter," Small said. Small said Hahneman "never had any friends here and no one ever knew him He d go away again Another neighbor, Mrs Richard Mettes said, ' I hardly even saw the man But I always thought it strange that he would allow his wife to raise thoe two kids by herself The neighbors became acquainted with Mary Jane Hahneman, the fugitive s wife when the couple and their children moved into the apartment in 1960 They said Mrs Hahneman had been losing her sight for the past six years "It was always a mystery what Mr Hahneman did," Mrs Anna Gately said "We were under the impression that he must have had a very nice position He was always well dressed “ The woman said Mrs Hahneman, "had always been my Idea of someone who can cope with trouble " She said the blind woman raised her two sons, John, 17, and Frederick Jr , 21, alone "She never talked about her husband She's a wonderful woman, never bitter about her sight," Mrs Gately said She added that she often drove her to the bank to cash her husband's paycheck, which he apparently had .."
Bendix made many rockets, they used Yttrium, mid 60's rockets on helicopters??
Flyjack, what is your source for claiming that "Bendix made many rockets" for helicopters in the mid 1960s?
As I remember it, Bendix was primarily an electronic supplier and I doubt if they had anything to do with making the rockets themselves.
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Is there anyone on Shutter's site that is a current subscriber to Aviation Week / Space Technology magazine?
I was a subscriber to Aviation Week for 55+ years but cancelled my subscription last year. Current subscribers have access to the Aviation Week archives and I am interested in something that was published by them in the 1963-1965 time frame.
This is related to the Cooper matter.
Robert99
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https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/41139715/
"Pa ( D P I ) -- The residents on the 100 block of James Street a quiet area in this eastern Pennsylvania community have always looked upon Fredenck William Hdhnemaji as a mysterious figure They wondered what kind of man would leave his blind wife alone to raise their two sons Some felt he had some kind of diplomatic position because he stayed away from the second floor apartment where his family lives for months -- even years at a tune Hahneman, 49, has been charged by the FBI with hijacking an Eastern Airlines jet just after it took off from the AJlentown-Easton- Bethlehem Airport on May 6 The hijacker bailed out of another plane over Honduras with $303,000 ransom He parachuted to the ground and still hasn't been located * His neighbuis said Hahneman made one of his infrequent visits home just before the jet was hijacked One said Mrs Hahneman asked him to come home because one-of the boys was having some kind of trouble William Small, who lives across the street, probably knows more than the other neighbors about the fugitive He said he talked with Hahneman five years ago "One time my wife and I talked to him I think he said he worked for Philco-Bendix He talked about how he was putting rockets on helicopter," Small said. Small said Hahneman "never had any friends here and no one ever knew him He d go away again Another neighbor, Mrs Richard Mettes said, ' I hardly even saw the man But I always thought it strange that he would allow his wife to raise thoe two kids by herself The neighbors became acquainted with Mary Jane Hahneman, the fugitive s wife when the couple and their children moved into the apartment in 1960 They said Mrs Hahneman had been losing her sight for the past six years "It was always a mystery what Mr Hahneman did," Mrs Anna Gately said "We were under the impression that he must have had a very nice position He was always well dressed “ The woman said Mrs Hahneman, "had always been my Idea of someone who can cope with trouble " She said the blind woman raised her two sons, John, 17, and Frederick Jr , 21, alone "She never talked about her husband She's a wonderful woman, never bitter about her sight," Mrs Gately said She added that she often drove her to the bank to cash her husband's paycheck, which he apparently had .."
Bendix made many rockets, they used Yttrium, mid 60's rockets on helicopters??
Flyjack, what is your source for claiming that "Bendix made many rockets" for helicopters in the mid 1960s?
As I remember it, Bendix was primarily an electronic supplier and I doubt if they had anything to do with making the rockets themselves.
Bendix made rockets and missiles, I don't know if any were specifically put on helos hence the ?? I don't know anything about helo rockets/missiles...
Hahneman worked for Philco-Bendix and his neighbour said he loaded helos.. at some point mid 60's
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Attempted to determine Hahneman's height from the pic..
The car he is next to is a late 60's Volvo 144, matched the angle to a full image of the same model to get the full roofline.
The Volvo model 144 is 56.7 inches in height.. using measurements and ratio's to compare Hahneman to the Volvo, he is about 6' tall. This isn't 100% accurate but puts him within Cooper's height range..
The biggest thing is that Hanneman's demeaner was much different than Cooper's. I hope when they release more FBI files that the well known suspects have their name attached to the the files the way McCoy's was. It would be interesting to see what eliminated him from a suspect list.
Possible explanation..
The Hahneman hijacking environment was different from Cooper.. The Hahneman airplane had many more passengers who were aware of the hijacking, passengers even confronted Hahneman, he had more pressure and was forced to be aggressive. Norjak had few passengers and none were aware of the hijacking. Cooper only dealt with the stew's..
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Is there anyone on Shutter's site that is a current subscriber to Aviation Week / Space Technology magazine?
I was a subscriber to Aviation Week for 55+ years but cancelled my subscription last year. Current subscribers have access to the Aviation Week archives and I am interested in something that was published by them in the 1963-1965 time frame.
This is related to the Cooper matter.
Robert99
some archived 63-65 Aviation Week's here at link... click "more" left side and select year
edit corrected link,,,
https://archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Aviation+Week%22
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I don't know this was posted about Hannemann
http://treasureworks.com/forums/taulabe-cave-treasure/14148-legend-of-the-taulabe-cave-treasure
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Is there anyone on Shutter's site that is a current subscriber to Aviation Week / Space Technology magazine?
I was a subscriber to Aviation Week for 55+ years but cancelled my subscription last year. Current subscribers have access to the Aviation Week archives and I am interested in something that was published by them in the 1963-1965 time frame.
This is related to the Cooper matter.
Robert99
some archived 63-65 Aviation Week's here at link... click "more" left side and select year
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/124-10194-10366.pdf
Flyjack, thanks for the link but I do not see "more" or anything else that could be a further link.
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Is there anyone on Shutter's site that is a current subscriber to Aviation Week / Space Technology magazine?
I was a subscriber to Aviation Week for 55+ years but cancelled my subscription last year. Current subscribers have access to the Aviation Week archives and I am interested in something that was published by them in the 1963-1965 time frame.
This is related to the Cooper matter.
Robert99
some archived 63-65 Aviation Week's here at link... click "more" left side and select year
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/124-10194-10366.pdf
Flyjack, thanks for the link but I do not see "more" or anything else that could be a further link.
sorry, I posted the wrong link, try this..
https://archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Aviation+Week%22
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Is there anyone on Shutter's site that is a current subscriber to Aviation Week / Space Technology magazine?
I was a subscriber to Aviation Week for 55+ years but cancelled my subscription last year. Current subscribers have access to the Aviation Week archives and I am interested in something that was published by them in the 1963-1965 time frame.
This is related to the Cooper matter.
Robert99
some archived 63-65 Aviation Week's here at link... click "more" left side and select year
https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/124-10194-10366.pdf
Flyjack, thanks for the link but I do not see "more" or anything else that could be a further link.
sorry, I posted the wrong link, try this..
https://archive.org/search.php?query=subject%3A%22Aviation+Week%22
Flyjack, thanks again and the above link works.
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Attempted to determine Hahneman's height from the pic..
The car he is next to is a late 60's Volvo 144, matched the angle to a full image of the same model to get the full roofline.
The Volvo model 144 is 56.7 inches in height.. using measurements and ratio's to compare Hahneman to the Volvo, he is about 6' tall. This isn't 100% accurate but puts him within Cooper's height range..
The biggest thing is that Hanneman's demeaner was much different than Cooper's. I hope when they release more FBI files that the well known suspects have their name attached to the the files the way McCoy's was. It would be interesting to see what eliminated him from a suspect list.
Possible explanation..
The Hahneman hijacking environment was different from Cooper.. The Hahneman airplane had many more passengers who were aware of the hijacking, passengers even confronted Hahneman, he had more pressure and was forced to be aggressive. Norjak had few passengers and none were aware of the hijacking. Cooper only dealt with the stew's..
Yes, and that is another reason why Hahneman is unlikely to be Cooper. Cooper is documented as having specifically chosen that passengers not know of the hijacking. By using a gun and conducting the hijacking the way he did, Hahneman caused these confrontations that Cooper avoided. Cooper showed the bomb quietly to the stewardess, kept the passengers in the dark, and did not explode at delays beyond the point of impatience. It makes no sense that in his follow-up crime, he would change the parts of his m.o. that worked.
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Attempted to determine Hahneman's height from the pic..
The car he is next to is a late 60's Volvo 144, matched the angle to a full image of the same model to get the full roofline.
The Volvo model 144 is 56.7 inches in height.. using measurements and ratio's to compare Hahneman to the Volvo, he is about 6' tall. This isn't 100% accurate but puts him within Cooper's height range..
The biggest thing is that Hanneman's demeaner was much different than Cooper's. I hope when they release more FBI files that the well known suspects have their name attached to the the files the way McCoy's was. It would be interesting to see what eliminated him from a suspect list.
Possible explanation..
The Hahneman hijacking environment was different from Cooper.. The Hahneman airplane had many more passengers who were aware of the hijacking, passengers even confronted Hahneman, he had more pressure and was forced to be aggressive. Norjak had few passengers and none were aware of the hijacking. Cooper only dealt with the stew's..
Yes, and that is another reason why Hahneman is unlikely to be Cooper. Cooper is documented as having specifically chosen that passengers not know of the hijacking. By using a gun and conducting the hijacking the way he did, Hahneman caused these confrontations that Cooper avoided. Cooper showed the bomb quietly to the stewardess, kept the passengers in the dark, and did not explode at delays beyond the point of impatience. It makes no sense that in his follow-up crime, he would change the parts of his m.o. that worked.
Well, the Pilot announced it.. and we don't know if Cooper had a gun...
Hahneman was forced to draw his gun when he a passenger was aggressive with him.
It doesn't eliminate him..
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Here is a little bit about the testing of the stairs...
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It's easy to slam and belittle the FBI's NORJACK investigation, but this shows that they were looking in some right places.
Wonder if the redacted portion says who paid for the drop testing?
377
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It's easy to slam and belittle the FBI's NORJACK investigation, but this shows that they were looking in some right places.
Wonder if the redacted portion says who paid for the drop testing?
377
Yes. The assumption is that DBC 'might' have some formal technical background related to the 727 vs. being just some observant guy who put 2+2 together and decided to take advantage of it. The particles on the tie only deepen that suspicion. But, at the same time the FBI is following these lines of investigation, the FBI did not know about the tie particles! God only knows what the FBI would have done and where they would have looked if they had had that evidence.
Through one means or another, the whole investigation was 'deprived' of hard physical evidence at the most crucial time - forensic evidence which agents were not trained to focus on and preserve? It haunts this case to this day!
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Georger wrote: "Through one means or another, the whole investigation was 'deprived' of hard physical evidence at the most crucial time - forensic evidence which agents were not trained to focus on and preserve? It haunts this case to this day!"
And to think the FBI likely HAD good DNA on those cig butts. And why did the FBI Lab at Quantico fail to do what TK and his team did? Examining the tie for particle clues seems so basic.
So many almosts and what-ifs. Frustrating.
377
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Georger wrote: "Through one means or another, the whole investigation was 'deprived' of hard physical evidence at the most crucial time - forensic evidence which agents were not trained to focus on and preserve? It haunts this case to this day!"
And to think the FBI likely HAD good DNA on those cig butts. And why did the FBI Lab at Quantico fail to do what TK and his team did? Examining the tie for particle clues seems so basic.
So many almosts and what-ifs. Frustrating.
377
It has been explained to me that (1) agents didnt generally have a lot of forensic training and (2) the lab was not free to go off on its own. The lab could only do tests ordered by someone. The lab had fairly deep capability and it certainly was informed about how to find and preserve evidence. For some reason those assets were not transferred to the field or all evidence would have been transferred to a common storage center for saving and processing, as the need developed.
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In the Unsolved Mysteries episode, Cooper refers to the pilots as fly boys. Was this actually in any testimony? Also, in testimony one of the flight attendants refers to Cooper asking for maps. What maps did he ask for?
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In the Unsolved Mysteries episode, Cooper refers to the pilots as fly boys. Was this actually in any testimony? Also, in testimony one of the flight attendants refers to Cooper asking for maps. What maps did he ask for?
Cooper did not ask for any maps nor did he specify any particular route for the airliner to follow when heading south from Seattle. Cooper said that he wanted to go to Mexico but was told that the 727 could not fly there nonstop in the configuration he dictated. He did agree, before takeoff, to land in Reno for refueling. But Cooper did not specify any route to be followed to get to Reno nor did he ask for the airliner's location at any point after the takeoff from Seattle. And the airliner was flying above an overcast so that Cooper could not see the ground and/or get any meaningful information about the airliner's position.
I have not seen anything in the records of Cooper referring to the cockpit crew as fly boys. Also, Cooper did not see any of the cockpit crew nor did they see him.
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In the Unsolved Mysteries episode, Cooper refers to the pilots as fly boys. Was this actually in any testimony? Also, in testimony one of the flight attendants refers to Cooper asking for maps. What maps did he ask for?
Cooper did not ask for any maps nor did he specify any particular route for the airliner to follow when heading south from Seattle. Cooper said that he wanted to go to Mexico but was told that the 727 could not fly there nonstop in the configuration he dictated. He did agree, before takeoff, to land in Reno for refueling. But Cooper did not specify any route to be followed to get to Reno nor did he ask for the airliner's location at any point after the takeoff from Seattle. And the airliner was flying above an overcast so that Cooper could not see the ground and/or get any meaningful information about the airliner's position.
Hancock in her interview says he asked for maps but she could not remember maps for what...
Hancock stated that the subject made his demands known in this order:
1) He wanted the money brought on board first.
2) We wanted (passengers) off the aircraft after the money was on board.
3) We wanted parachutes and four crew meals.
4) He wanted the plane completely refueled.
5) We wanted maps.
She could not remember what kind of maps the subject requested.
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In the Unsolved Mysteries episode, Cooper refers to the pilots as fly boys. Was this actually in any testimony? Also, in testimony one of the flight attendants refers to Cooper asking for maps. What maps did he ask for?
Cooper did not ask for any maps nor did he specify any particular route for the airliner to follow when heading south from Seattle. Cooper said that he wanted to go to Mexico but was told that the 727 could not fly there nonstop in the configuration he dictated. He did agree, before takeoff, to land in Reno for refueling. But Cooper did not specify any route to be followed to get to Reno nor did he ask for the airliner's location at any point after the takeoff from Seattle. And the airliner was flying above an overcast so that Cooper could not see the ground and/or get any meaningful information about the airliner's position.
Hancock in her interview says he asked for maps but she could not remember maps for what...
Hancock stated that the subject made his demands known in this order:
1) He wanted the money brought on board first.
2) We wanted (passengers) off the aircraft after the money was on board.
3) We wanted parachutes and four crew meals.
4) He wanted the plane completely refueled.
5) We wanted maps.
She could not remember what kind of maps the subject requested.
Airline crews that fly regular routes typically only carry IFR enroute maps and approach plates for that route and perhaps adjacent areas. They may also carry world maps (which cover more area than sectional charts) and includes some topographical information. But they typically do not carry such maps for the entire US if they only fly domestically.
Al Lee had to scramble to find IFR maps and approach plates for the areas south of Portland. He included those maps in the box along with the crew meals that was loaded onto the aircraft.
If Hancock is right and Cooper did ask for maps, he may have been asking for maps for the cockpit crew. If so, Cooper may have had some experience as a pilot or cockpit crew member.
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In the Unsolved Mysteries episode, Cooper refers to the pilots as fly boys. Was this actually in any testimony? Also, in testimony one of the flight attendants refers to Cooper asking for maps. What maps did he ask for?
Cooper did not ask for any maps nor did he specify any particular route for the airliner to follow when heading south from Seattle. Cooper said that he wanted to go to Mexico but was told that the 727 could not fly there nonstop in the configuration he dictated. He did agree, before takeoff, to land in Reno for refueling. But Cooper did not specify any route to be followed to get to Reno nor did he ask for the airliner's location at any point after the takeoff from Seattle. And the airliner was flying above an overcast so that Cooper could not see the ground and/or get any meaningful information about the airliner's position.
Hancock in her interview says he asked for maps but she could not remember maps for what...
Hancock stated that the subject made his demands known in this order:
1) He wanted the money brought on board first.
2) We wanted (passengers) off the aircraft after the money was on board.
3) We wanted parachutes and four crew meals.
4) He wanted the plane completely refueled.
5) We wanted maps.
She could not remember what kind of maps the subject requested.
Airline crews that fly regular routes typically only carry IFR enroute maps and approach plates for that route and perhaps adjacent areas. They may also carry world maps (which cover more area than sectional charts) and includes some topographical information. But they typically do not carry such maps for the entire US if they only fly domestically.
Al Lee had to scramble to find IFR maps and approach plates for the areas south of Portland. He included those maps in the box along with the crew meals that was loaded onto the aircraft.
If Hancock is right and Cooper did ask for maps, he may have been asking for maps for the cockpit crew. If so, Cooper may have had some experience as a pilot or cockpit crew member.
Hancock could have confused Cooper asking for maps with the crew scrambling for maps. Lets check the crew interviews and what other crew members recalled ...
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The crew was asking about maps and approach plates. it's very possible they were added to the list of demands..what would maps do for Cooper in the dark? it's not a GPS ....plus everyone believes he was familiar with the area and where he jumped?
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The crew was asking about maps and approach plates. it's very possible they were added to the list of demands..what would maps do for Cooper in the dark? it's not a GPS ....plus everyone believes he was familiar with the area and where he jumped?
I thought it was the crew that asked for maps/charts
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The crew was asking about maps and approach plates. it's very possible they were added to the list of demands..what would maps do for Cooper in the dark? it's not a GPS ....plus everyone believes he was familiar with the area and where he jumped?
I thought it was the crew that asked for maps/charts
me too - :-\
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The crew was asking about maps and approach plates. it's very possible they were added to the list of demands..what would maps do for Cooper in the dark? it's not a GPS ....plus everyone believes he was familiar with the area and where he jumped?
I thought it was the crew that asked for maps/charts
me too - :-\
To explain that ARINC message a bit, the airliner crew asked the NWA operation at SEATAC to have maps and charts (which were apparently identified in an earlier ARINC message) sent out to the aircraft after it landed in Seattle. NWA Seattle replied that they will have A and B charts, which they identified as International charts, sent out. My guess is that the A means low altitude IFR enroute charts and the B means high altitude IFR enroute charts. No mention is made of the geographical area covered by these charts.
NWA flight operations in Minneapolis told the airliner and NWA Seattle to "take the whole set of CFAR [air]craft maps with you". Again, no mention is made of the geographical area covered by these charts.
This message was sent over the ARINC teletype network at 01:16 AM GMT on November 25th, which translates (by subtracting 8 hours) to 5:16 PM PST on November 24th.
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?
Cooper didn't jump until after 8pm and the plane didn't land in Reno until well after that (11pm??), which is when authorities found out for sure that he had jumped.
So there's no way the 9:00 or 10:00 news could have reported that the hijacker was on the run. Was there anything on the news about the hijacking at all that night?
What was the Thursday morning newspaper coverage like? Huge story with a ton of coverage or a short blip (or nothing at all)? Being the day before Thanksgiving, many may have gone to press earlier that night (we always did on the eve of holidays when I worked in the newspaper business). So coverage may have been brief.
Anyone know what time the initial AP story hit the wire that day?
What about radio stations the next morning (or perhaps in the middle of the night even).
Just pondering how much time Cooper would have had to move about under the radar without the public knowing what was going on. And more specifically, at what point would the public have found out that the hijacker bailed out of the plane? How long was Cooper's window of opportunity before anyone in the general public would have known there was a hijacker on the loose?
EDIT:
After posting this I did some digging and found a story about the "DB" name mixup. The reporter taking responsibility for it says it was around 3:30 or 4pm that he wrote the story on deadline (which contributed to the name mixup), but it's a bit unclear as to which day he is referring to. Hard to believe that would have been on Wednesday seeing as how the passengers didn't get off the plane until at least that time (which is when it was discovered that "Dan Cooper" was the missing passenger).
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?
News people began arriving at the Seattle airport less than 30 mins after 305 alerted ATC that a hijacking was in progress.
Preparation/scrambling for searches at Portland etc. would have alerted people they thought Cooper had bailed near Woodland in the 8:00 o'clock hour before 305 had even landed at Reno.
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?
Cooper didn't jump until after 8pm and the plane didn't land in Reno until well after that (11pm??), which is when authorities found out for sure that he had jumped.
So there's no way the 9:00 or 10:00 news could have reported that the hijacker was on the run. Was there anything on the news about the hijacking at all that night?
What was the Thursday morning newspaper coverage like? Huge story with a ton of coverage or a short blip (or nothing at all)? Being the day before Thanksgiving, many may have gone to press earlier that night (we always did on the eve of holidays when I worked in the newspaper business). So coverage may have been brief.
Anyone know what time the initial AP story hit the wire that day?
What about radio stations the next morning (or perhaps in the middle of the night even).
Just pondering how much time Cooper would have had to move about under the radar without the public knowing what was going on. And more specifically, at what point would the public have found out that the hijacker bailed out of the plane? How long was Cooper's window of opportunity before anyone in the general public would have known there was a hijacker on the loose?
EDIT:
After posting this I did some digging and found a story about the "DB" name mixup. The reporter taking responsibility for it says it was around 3:30 or 4pm that he wrote the story on deadline (which contributed to the name mixup), but it's a bit unclear as to which day he is referring to. Hard to believe that would have been on Wednesday seeing as how the passengers didn't get off the plane until at least that time (which is when it was discovered that "Dan Cooper" was the missing passenger).
Cooper passed the hijack note to Flo as the airliner was actually taxing out to the runway in Portland. The flight crew was informed of the hijacking immediately after take off, just a couple of minutes after 3:00 PM. The airliner flight crew notified NWA immediately, presumably with a message through the ARINC teletype system. By about 3:15 or 3:30 PM, the airliner was in the Seattle area and had been handed off to SEATAC approach control which handled the holding until the money and parachutes were at the NWA station at SEATAC.
After the money and parachutes were at SEATAC, SEATAC approach control handed the flight off to the SEATAC tower which cleared it to land. The airliner landed after 5:00 PM. I can't find the exact time at the moment, but it could have been as late as 5:30 or 5:40.
At the time the plane landed, the FAA, FBI, and NWA personnel were the only ones who had been involved directly. But as Georger points out, everyone in the Pacific Northwest appears to have known about the hijacking by somewhere around 3:30 PM. So someone apparently owed some favors to people in the media.
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?
News people began arriving at the Seattle airport less than 30 mins after 305 alerted ATC that a hijacking was in progress.
Preparation/scrambling for searches at Portland etc. would have alerted people they thought Cooper had bailed near Woodland in the 8:00 o'clock hour before 305 had even landed at Reno.
Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing footage of some passengers being interviewed by the media at Sea-Tac; I'm guessing shortly after giving their witness testimonies. So it's fair to assume there was plenty of coverage on the news that evening. If people were aware of the hijacking by 3:30 or 4:00, it must have been breaking news that interrupted regularly scheduled TV programming in addition to being all over the radio. If that's true, that news traveled really fast for being 1971. Note is handed to Tina around 3:00 and it was already dominating the news just 30 minutes later? For an era without social media and smartphones, that's awfully impressive.
The earliest reports would not have included information about a bailout though, because the bailout hadn't happened yet. With a jump not being made until after 8pm (and not a positive confirmation of such until well after that), the news that the hijacker was now on the ground and possibly on the run may not have really surfaced until the morning papers hit the doorsteps. Although I suppose it's possible the Wednesday night late news may have had some info about the bailout, depending on when word of the bailout made its rounds.
I was just trying to peg down a general time frame for which Cooper could have moved about the area before any locals knew the hijacker was on the ground and may have become suspicious of someone (if of course he survived the jump and was healthy enough to get on the move).
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?
News people began arriving at the Seattle airport less than 30 mins after 305 alerted ATC that a hijacking was in progress.
Preparation/scrambling for searches at Portland etc. would have alerted people they thought Cooper had bailed near Woodland in the 8:00 o'clock hour before 305 had even landed at Reno.
Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing footage of some passengers being interviewed by the media at Sea-Tac; I'm guessing shortly after giving their witness testimonies. So it's fair to assume there was plenty of coverage on the news that evening. If people were aware of the hijacking by 3:30 or 4:00, it must have been breaking news that interrupted regularly scheduled TV programming in addition to being all over the radio. If that's true, that news traveled really fast for being 1971. Note is handed to Tina around 3:00 and it was already dominating the news just 30 minutes later? For an era without social media and smartphones, that's awfully impressive.
The earliest reports would not have included information about a bailout though, because the bailout hadn't happened yet. With a jump not being made until after 8pm (and not a positive confirmation of such until well after that), the news that the hijacker was now on the ground and possibly on the run may not have really surfaced until the morning papers hit the doorsteps. Although I suppose it's possible the Wednesday night late news may have had some info about the bailout, depending on when word of the bailout made its rounds.
I was just trying to peg down a general time frame for which Cooper could have moved about the area before any locals knew the hijacker was on the ground and may have become suspicious of someone (if of course he survived the jump and was healthy enough to get on the move).
Did the whole population of the Northwest know Cooper had bailed (8:12-15) and where precisely: No. But, for example, citizens at Wilhelm Trucking in Portland were following news reports flowing in and passing that info along to citizens through truckers ... the Manager of the Troutdale Airport was following news reports eg. "we were told (when) 305 had crossed the Columbia on the west side of Portland and several pilots offered assistance in the search but we declined to get involved ..." (all before 305 had landed at Reno).
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Bill Mitchell told me that his mother was watching TV coverage of the skyjacking while she was cooking, and 305 was still circling Seattle.
I've heard rumors and reports that the public was advised not to pick up hitchhikers through the evening hours of Wednesday, Nov 24th, but I have not been able to confirm that occurrence.
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Thanks for the replies. Sounds like word of the hijacking hit the streets well before Cooper may have. I suppose local news rooms would have had a police scanner on and would have heard some communication of it that way.
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Thanks for the replies. Sounds like word of the hijacking hit the streets well before Cooper may have. I suppose local news rooms would have had a police scanner on and would have heard some communication of it that way.
At least the initial communications were on the aviation VHF frequencies and, even at worse, there shouldn't have been much chatter on the local police frequencies since they were only indirectly involved. This whole thing suggests that the media was deliberately alerted by some law enforcement agencies.
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Thanks for the replies. Sounds like word of the hijacking hit the streets well before Cooper may have. I suppose local news rooms would have had a police scanner on and would have heard some communication of it that way.
At least the initial communications were on the aviation VHF frequencies and, even at worse, there shouldn't have been much chatter on the local police frequencies since they were only indirectly involved. This whole thing suggests that the media was deliberately alerted by some law enforcement agencies.
..... honey Ill be home late - we have a hijacking going on. Oh!? When did that happen. About 3 pm. OK, do you want me to hold dinner for you? No, I have no idea when Illl get outta here. Ok. I;ll let everyone at church know! Ok.
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Thanks for the replies. Sounds like word of the hijacking hit the streets well before Cooper may have. I suppose local news rooms would have had a police scanner on and would have heard some communication of it that way.
At least the initial communications were on the aviation VHF frequencies and, even at worse, there shouldn't have been much chatter on the local police frequencies since they were only indirectly involved. This whole thing suggests that the media was deliberately alerted by some law enforcement agencies.
..... honey Ill be home late - we have a hijacking going on. Oh!? When did that happen. About 3 pm. OK, do you want me to hold dinner for you? No, I have no idea when Illl get outta here. Ok. I;ll let everyone at church know! Ok.
After notifying his wife, or maybe even before, a direct call to his favorite TV reporter would be made.
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?
News people began arriving at the Seattle airport less than 30 mins after 305 alerted ATC that a hijacking was in progress.
Preparation/scrambling for searches at Portland etc. would have alerted people they thought Cooper had bailed near Woodland in the 8:00 o'clock hour before 305 had even landed at Reno.
Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing footage of some passengers being interviewed by the media at Sea-Tac; I'm guessing shortly after giving their witness testimonies. So it's fair to assume there was plenty of coverage on the news that evening. If people were aware of the hijacking by 3:30 or 4:00, it must have been breaking news that interrupted regularly scheduled TV programming in addition to being all over the radio. If that's true, that news traveled really fast for being 1971. Note is handed to Tina around 3:00 and it was already dominating the news just 30 minutes later? For an era without social media and smartphones, that's awfully impressive.
The earliest reports would not have included information about a bailout though, because the bailout hadn't happened yet. With a jump not being made until after 8pm (and not a positive confirmation of such until well after that), the news that the hijacker was now on the ground and possibly on the run may not have really surfaced until the morning papers hit the doorsteps. Although I suppose it's possible the Wednesday night late news may have had some info about the bailout, depending on when word of the bailout made its rounds.
I was just trying to peg down a general time frame for which Cooper could have moved about the area before any locals knew the hijacker was on the ground and may have become suspicious of someone (if of course he survived the jump and was healthy enough to get on the move).
Did the whole population of the Northwest know Cooper had bailed (8:12-15) and where precisely: No. But, for example, citizens at Wilhelm Trucking in Portland were following news reports flowing in and passing that info along to citizens through truckers ... the Manager of the Troutdale Airport was following news reports eg. "we were told (when) 305 had crossed the Columbia on the west side of Portland and several pilots offered assistance in the search but we declined to get involved ..." (all before 305 had landed at Reno).
Very interesting question as it gives an insight into how much time Coop might have had to make his escape undetected if he indeed did survive. Since the forum poll shows us that a majority of forum posters believe he survived, this is a huge question that needs an answer ! Since the caper originated in Portland and flight landed in Seattle, it was huge news especially in those 2 cities. I lived in Portland at the time and it was all over the evening newscasts at the time. However I’m not aware of much precise news telling me of his possible whereabouts ? Nobody was told to head over to the Ariel area ! However it’s interesting that Rudie Wilhelm trucking company comes up in the conversation. I like the lead but think they have the wrong Trucking company. It might be a good idea to,check the KGW news archives and see it they have any more details on newscasts on evening of nov 24,1971. One has to remember that we didn’t have 24 hour news in 1971. Lol
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What was the earliest point at which the public were informed of the news of the hijacking? Even more specifically, what's the earliest the public would have known that the hijacker had bailed from the plane and was on the loose?
News people began arriving at the Seattle airport less than 30 mins after 305 alerted ATC that a hijacking was in progress.
Preparation/scrambling for searches at Portland etc. would have alerted people they thought Cooper had bailed near Woodland in the 8:00 o'clock hour before 305 had even landed at Reno.
Now that you mention it, I do recall seeing footage of some passengers being interviewed by the media at Sea-Tac; I'm guessing shortly after giving their witness testimonies. So it's fair to assume there was plenty of coverage on the news that evening. If people were aware of the hijacking by 3:30 or 4:00, it must have been breaking news that interrupted regularly scheduled TV programming in addition to being all over the radio. If that's true, that news traveled really fast for being 1971. Note is handed to Tina around 3:00 and it was already dominating the news just 30 minutes later? For an era without social media and smartphones, that's awfully impressive.
The earliest reports would not have included information about a bailout though, because the bailout hadn't happened yet. With a jump not being made until after 8pm (and not a positive confirmation of such until well after that), the news that the hijacker was now on the ground and possibly on the run may not have really surfaced until the morning papers hit the doorsteps. Although I suppose it's possible the Wednesday night late news may have had some info about the bailout, depending on when word of the bailout made its rounds.
I was just trying to peg down a general time frame for which Cooper could have moved about the area before any locals knew the hijacker was on the ground and may have become suspicious of someone (if of course he survived the jump and was healthy enough to get on the move).
Did the whole population of the Northwest know Cooper had bailed (8:12-15) and where precisely: No. But, for example, citizens at Wilhelm Trucking in Portland were following news reports flowing in and passing that info along to citizens through truckers ... the Manager of the Troutdale Airport was following news reports eg. "we were told (when) 305 had crossed the Columbia on the west side of Portland and several pilots offered assistance in the search but we declined to get involved ..." (all before 305 had landed at Reno).
Very interesting question as it gives an insight into how much time Coop might have had to make his escape undetected if he indeed did survive. Since the forum poll shows us that a majority of forum posters believe he survived, this is a huge question that needs an answer ! Since the caper originated in Portland and flight landed in Seattle, it was huge news especially in those 2 cities. I lived in Portland at the time and it was all over the evening newscasts at the time. However I’m not aware of much precise news telling me of his possible whereabouts ? Nobody was told to head over to the Ariel area ! However it’s interesting that Rudie Wilhelm trucking company comes up in the conversation. I like the lead but think they have the wrong Trucking company. It might be a good idea to,check the KGW news archives and see it they have any more details on newscasts on evening of nov 24,1971. One has to remember that we didn’t have 24 hour news in 1971. Lol
The only name I ever had was 'Wilhelm Trucking'. Janet and her husband worked there - Janet if you remember contacted the FBI saying she and her husband witnessed what may have been the plane going over, and a flare or fire dropping from the plane and drifting westward. Another employee of the trucking company surfaces in this story. He and other truckers were exchanging news of the hijacking and informing others. The network widened to include church members of two of the employees. One of those church members related later: 'the plane went over here and it was on fire!'. ;) The lady with that news got the report from her son who worked at Wilhelm Trucking.
It would have been interesting to collect personal reports about where and how, different people heard of the hijacking on the day, in the State of Washington.
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If you’re talking about Wilhelm Trucking , trust me ... it was Rudie Wilhemn trucking ! Rudie started the company back in the 1920’s and was huge for almost a 100 years in Portland, Milwaukee area. I pay little attention to all these wild claims of planes crashing or Men with flares falling out of the sky etc. etc. The FBI CHASED DOWN 1000’s of these preposterous stories.
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Kermit. Did the authorities ever discuss the trains? Did Skychefs cater the railroads? Even with DNA or photos, this legend will always live on. It does not want to be solved. Any new suspect will just add to the legend. We will see a new suspect soon. Records will show a heavy, heavy smoker, on the railroad, who would have been very familiar with Benzadrine to stay awake. Dyed hair. Matches Mitchell’s testimony and Gunther’s book.
Dice. “I'm not with the Agency, Mr. Garrison, and I assume if you've come this far, what I have to say interests you. But I'm not going to name names, or tell you who or what I represent. Except to say--you're close, you're closer than you think..#
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Kermit. Did the authorities ever discuss the trains? Did Skychefs cater the railroads? Even with DNA or photos, this legend will always live on. It does not want to be solved. Any new suspect will just add to the legend. We will see a new suspect soon. Records will show a heavy, heavy smoker, on the railroad, who would have been very familiar with Benzadrine to stay awake. Dyed hair. Matches Mitchell’s testimony and Gunther’s book.
Dice. “I'm not with the Agency, Mr. Garrison, and I assume if you've come this far, what I have to say interests you. But I'm not going to name names, or tell you who or what I represent. Except to say--you're close, you're closer than you think..#
SeaTac,
Skychef probably catered all the airlines at one location or another. Those Skychef match books were everywhere until the airlines stopped passing out small packets of four cigarettes with meals.
My train experience is extremely limited and all before the early 1960s. But I have never seen anything catered on a passenger train. Usually, the trains had their own dining cars (very expensive!) and porters sold sandwiches and coffee to the unwashed.
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SeaTac,
I’m so glad to see someone mention Trains. To me you can join the Tina Bar NO pull group or you can take the other avenue that there exists a very real possibility that Cooper survived the jump and escaped ! I see no real proof one way or the other so I find it far more interesting to explore how Cooper might have escaped undetected.
It just seems to me that very few people seem to be all that interested in how easily he could have pulled this caper off. Im a local that has spent most of my life fishing, hunting and exploring many areas of Cooper country. I feel Trains could have been a huge part of Cooper’s escape plans. Train lines have been running through Cooper country for many many years. Meyer and I went over this a year ago and I’ve done a lot of exploring down this avenue recently. Your call name is SeaTac which begs my curiosity whether your from the area !
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SeaTac,
I’m so glad to see someone mention Trains. To me you can join the Tina Bar NO pull group or you can take the other avenue that there exists a very real possibility that Cooper survived the jump and escaped ! I see no real proof one way or the other so I find it far more interesting to explore how Cooper might have escaped undetected.
It just seems to me that very few people seem to be all that interested in how easily he could have pulled this caper off. Im a local that has spent most of my life fishing, hunting and exploring many areas of Cooper country. I feel Trains could have been a huge part of Cooper’s escape plans. Train lines have been running through Cooper country for many many years. Meyer and I went over this a year ago and I’ve done a lot of exploring down this avenue recently. Your call name is SeaTac which begs my curiosity whether your from the area !
Train lines (working and extinct) penetrated the whole Cooper DZ area with one line going straight south to Vancouver and then runs (west?) right behind Tina Bar (the Fazios property and River Road). Weve mentioned this option before ...
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If you’re talking about Wilhelm Trucking , trust me ... it was Rudie Wilhemn trucking ! Rudie started the company back in the 1920’s and was huge for almost a 100 years in Portland, Milwaukee area. I pay little attention to all these wild claims of planes crashing or Men with flares falling out of the sky etc. etc. The FBI CHASED DOWN 1000’s of these preposterous stories.
The FBI CHASED DOWN 1000’s of these preposterous stories.
I want to hear about these stories! Why didnt anybody catalog them?
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Kermit. Did the authorities ever discuss the trains? Did Skychefs cater the railroads? Even with DNA or photos, this legend will always live on. It does not want to be solved. Any new suspect will just add to the legend. We will see a new suspect soon. Records will show a heavy, heavy smoker, on the railroad, who would have been very familiar with Benzadrine to stay awake. Dyed hair. Matches Mitchell’s testimony and Gunther’s book.
Dice. “I'm not with the Agency, Mr. Garrison, and I assume if you've come this far, what I have to say interests you. But I'm not going to name names, or tell you who or what I represent. Except to say--you're close, you're closer than you think..#
Hmmm. Are you bigger than a bread box and purple, gray, pink, black, yellow ...? How many fingers have you got? Mammalian eyes? When did you arrive and how long have you been here doing what? Do we have to go through the center of the Sun to get to Alpha Centauri? :-X
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SeaTac,
I’m so glad to see someone mention Trains. To me you can join the Tina Bar NO pull groups p or you can take the other avenue that there exists a very real possibility that Cooper survived the jump and escaped ! I see no real proof one way or the other so I find it far more interesting to explore how Cooper might have escaped undetected.
It just seems to me that very few people seem to be all that interested in how easily he could have pulled this caper off. Im a local that has spent most of my life fishing, hunting and exploring many areas of Cooper country. I feel Trains could have been a huge part of Cooper’s escape plans. Train lines have been running through Cooper country for many many years. Meyer and I went over this a year ago and I’ve done a lot of exploring down this avenue recently. Your call name is SeaTac which begs my curiosity whether your from the area !
Train lines (working and extinct) penetrated the whole Cooper DZ area with one line going straight south to Vancouver and then runs (west?) right behind Tina Bar (the Fazios property and River Road). Weve mentioned this option before ...
Yes I know we have mentioned the line that runs right behind Tina Bar but I’ve never been able to ascertain it’s relevance to,Cooper’s escape plan ? I’m more interested in the Rail lines that run directly into Cooper country from Yacolt, right through Battleground and continuing Westerly hooking up with the main BNSF line that runs from Seattle to LA. I can hear clearly this main line from my home about 11/2 mile away. A train whistle in the quiet of night can easily be heard for many miles away ! That train line has between 59 to 82 trains a day depending on whose count you’re using.
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SeaTac,
I’m so glad to see someone mention Trains. To me you can join the Tina Bar NO pull groups p or you can take the other avenue that there exists a very real possibility that Cooper survived the jump and escaped ! I see no real proof one way or the other so I find it far more interesting to explore how Cooper might have escaped undetected.
It just seems to me that very few people seem to be all that interested in how easily he could have pulled this caper off. Im a local that has spent most of my life fishing, hunting and exploring many areas of Cooper country. I feel Trains could have been a huge part of Cooper’s escape plans. Train lines have been running through Cooper country for many many years. Meyer and I went over this a year ago and I’ve done a lot of exploring down this avenue recently. Your call name is SeaTac which begs my curiosity whether your from the area !
Train lines (working and extinct) penetrated the whole Cooper DZ area with one line going straight south to Vancouver and then runs (west?) right behind Tina Bar (the Fazios property and River Road). Weve mentioned this option before ...
Yes I know we have mentioned the line that runs right behind Tina Bar but I’ve never been able to ascertain it’s relevance to,Cooper’s escape plan ? I’m more interested in the Rail lines that run directly into Cooper country from Yacolt, right through Battleground and continuing Westerly hooking up with the main BNSF line that runs from Seattle to LA. I can hear clearly this main line from my home about 11/2 mile away. A train whistle in the quiet of night can easily be heard for many miles away ! That train line has between 59 to 82 trains a day depending on whose count you’re using.
Glad you pointed this out! That's very interesting. I have yet to see any 302 which mentions investigation of rail lines or any interviews with people that were using the rail lines on the day ... ??
I asked a cousin of mine at Vancouver if they bothered to interview people in the hobo camps after the hijacking and he basically said 'no'. I asked several agents about this and they also said 'no'. That surprised me. Its a blank slate so far as I know . . . thanks again Kermit.
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If you’re talking about Wilhelm Trucking , trust me ... it was Rudie Wilhemn trucking ! Rudie started the company back in the 1920’s and was huge for almost a 100 years in Portland, Milwaukee area. I pay little attention to all these wild claims of planes crashing or Men with flares falling out of the sky etc. etc. The FBI CHASED DOWN 1000’s of these preposterous stories.
The FBI CHASED DOWN 1000’s of these preposterous stories.
I want to hear about these stories! Why didnt anybody catalog them?
Fazio cattle mutilations. Alien surgeons at work. T Bar was their operating room. Surely they know how the money got there.
377
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Regarding trains. Fragments and sparks from brake shoes and metal shavings from rails and wheels could very likely have resulted in the same analysis of the tie. Railroad workers of any capacity would have worn clip on ties for safety, when they wore ties. Heavy smoker. Heart disease. Clip on tie. Metal shavings. Did he wear any rings? A working man like that who was around machinery would not have worn a ring, even if married.
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Regarding trains. Fragments and sparks from brake shoes and metal shavings from rails and wheels could very likely have resulted in the same analysis of the tie. Railroad workers of any capacity would have worn clip on ties for safety, when they wore ties. Heavy smoker. Heart disease. Clip on tie. Metal shavings. Did he wear any rings? A working man like that who was around machinery would not have worn a ring, even if married.
can you provide the elements known to be from brake shoes that match the elements...most railroad workers wore jump suits, or overall's..the one's inside wore ties but were tucked inside a vest only showing the top portion of the tie..
a quick search: Railway Brake Blocks. Compo C/BB/K brake block is a rigid moulded friction material, grey-black in colour, having a random fiber asbestos base and containing metallic particles. It is manufactured only in the form of brake blocks, integrally moulded to a back plate.
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I have been reading some You Tube comments...it's already gone haywire...the flight path is fake, the sketch is fake. nothing the FBI states is correct according most I've read..
"they finally found him"
"the pic of Cooper is a fake"
"I think you have fantastic evidence!! This is so great and well done!! You may have actually solved the case of D.B Cooper."
"Cant wait for the movie...starring Tom Cruise"
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I have been reading some You Tube comments...it's already gone haywire...the flight path is fake, the sketch is fake. nothing the FBI states is correct according most I've read..
"they finally found him"
"the pic of Cooper is a fake"
"I think you have fantastic evidence!! This is so great and well done!! You may have actually solved the case of D.B Cooper."
"Cant wait for the movie...starring Tom Cruise"
I haven't read any comments but have seen some of the videos. It seems that people that don't have much info about the Cooper case can be very gullible. Most of the Cooper suspects have at least some of what has been reported as facts of the case, this latest guy has almost nothing. If this guy's DNA were a match with Cooper their story would carry more weight but it was tested in 2009 and was negative.
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It's amazing how little they know and quickly come to conclusions. it doesn't take much to convince the general public..that's why the political field is the way it is..they can easily sway a view of someone with one false accusation.
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If Reca were going to come up with a credible Cooper story why on Earth did he pick such an unlikely landing area? I'm sure another "Cowboy" with foggy memories of a lost stranger could be found at some diner closer to the flight path.
Skydivers did want to be Cooper suspects. It was a badge of honor to have been interviewed by the FBI, and many were after the FBI pulled all the USPA membership data from their office, then located in Monterey CA. IMO, lots of skydivers lied about being interviewed. I was disappointed to have been passed over.
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If Reca were going to come up with a credible Cooper story why on Earth did he pick such an unlikely landing area? I'm sure another "Cowboy" with foggy memories of a lost stranger could be found at some diner closer to the flight path.
Skydivers did want to be Cooper suspects. It was a badge of honor to have been interviewed by the FBI, and many were after the FBI pulled all the USPA membership data from their office, then located in Monterey CA. IMO, lots of skydivers lied about being interviewed. I was disappointed to have been passed over.
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No link btwn skydivers and Cooper has ever been established; in fact skydivers say his dress was not what a skydiver would chose.
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The FBI obviously didn't rule out skydivers. They probed the sport deeply. But I agree, certainly not the footwear that I'd choose. Other clothes don't matter so much.
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It's also another strike against Reca as a suspect. If he was in a skydiving club and performing stunts, he certainly would have been familiar with the more advanced parachute that he was given as an option during the hijacking and likely would have chosen that. Logic says that Cooper was familiar with and comfortable jumping with the military chute but not as familiar with or comfortable enough with option #2, which is why he went with the military chute.
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Curtis Eng
From Linked In:
Impressive resume.
Engineer/CS. Worked at Boeing.
Smart dude.
Experience
Senior Investigator
Rampart Group LLC
March 2018 – Present (3 months)Greater Seattle Area
Civil litigation investigations and security consulting.
FBI
Special Agent
FBI
September 1997 – September 2017 (20 years 1 month) Greater Seattle Area
January, 2010-September, 2017: Seattle Division. Assigned to the Seattle Safe Streets Task Force, Child Exploitation Task Force, and Special Operations. Primary responsibilities are Organized Crime, Criminal Enterprise/Gangs, Child Exploitation/Child Pornography, Fugitive, Kidnapping, and Extortion/Threat investigations. Collateral duties are as a Certified Technically Trained Agent providing covert electronic surveillance for both criminal and national security investigations.
July, 2004-January, 2010: San Francisco Division, San Jose Resident Agency. Assigned to Criminal squad with emphasis on Asian Organized Crime. Collateral duty of covert electronic surveillance.
December, 1997-July, 2004: Chicago Division. Assigned to Cyber squad, Gang squad, and Special Operations (covert electronic surveillance) squad.
AT&T Wireless Services
Systems Engineer
AT&T Wireless Services
December 1995 – August 1997 (1 year 9 months)Kirkland, WA
Designed and implemented wireless data solutions for customers utilizing AT&T wireless network and hardware. Interacted with sales personnel and potential customers to gather requirements and develop solutions.
Motorola
Software Engineer
Motorola
May 1991 – November 1995 (4 years 7 months)Bothell, WA
Gathered requirements, designed, implemented, verified, and maintained application software and firmware for mobile data devices used primarily for public safety. Programmed primarily in C++ utilizing structured and object oriented techniques on Unix and Microsoft operating system platforms. Also programmed in C and Visual Basic.
Scitor Corporation
Technical Aide
Scitor Corporation
October 1988 – May 1991 (2 years 8 months)Kent, WA
Drafted detailed technical schematics for classified “black” project as a contractor for the Boeing Aerospace Company to support Systems Engineers utilizing Macintosh hardware. Developed software tools to extract and format data utilizing the C programming language.
Boeing
Technical Aide
Boeing
April 1986 – September 1988 (2 years 6 months)Kent, WA
Drafted detailed technical schematics for classified “black” project as a contractor for the Boeing Aerospace Company to support Systems Engineers utilizing Macintosh hardware. Developed software tools to extract and format data utilizing the C programming language.
United States Marine Corps
Corporal
United States Marine Corps
June 1983 – June 1987 (4 years 1 month)
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If Reca were going to come up with a credible Cooper story why on Earth did he pick such an unlikely landing area? I'm sure another "Cowboy" with foggy memories of a lost stranger could be found at some diner closer to the flight path.
Skydivers did want to be Cooper suspects. It was a badge of honor to have been interviewed by the FBI, and many were after the FBI pulled all the USPA membership data from their office, then located in Monterey CA. IMO, lots of skydivers lied about being interviewed. I was disappointed to have been passed over.
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this story is out of strikes..remember, he cut up the main chute, so the reserve in evidence is a fake, and Hayden's chute must be a fake also...and since they knew who he was it's odd the money turned up 160 miles away from the LZ...
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I just do not understand Reca's choice of landing area for his "I am Cooper" story. Maybe he was drunk when he came up with the "facts". Even a little bit of reading could have helped him craft a FAR more credible story. A little bit of reading could also have prevented his promoters from publishing an embarrassingly poorly vetted story.
If the interview of Cowboy had as many leading questions as the taped interview of Raca did, its no wonder that Cowboy's recollection matched their preconceived narrative about meeting Reca.
Reca sure was an accomplished parachutist, but he was not DBC. Too bad. I had some hope when the press conference was announced.
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The consensus is DB Cooper asked for four parachutes, two front and two back.
1. Did he say two front and two back, or did he say two mains and two reserves? A skydiver would have just asked for a rig. A paratrooper would have known to ask for two, but he would have said a main and a reserve, not a front and back. Who would ask for a front and back, but not say main and reserve?
2. Didn't he in fact ask for two parachutes? Two complete setups, not four. Could he have not thought out the hostage piece, and was really just asking for two sets in case he thought he would be tricked and given a fake one? Or was he thinking ahead to the hostage part, and planned to only take one hostage? Maybe this was not planned out, and we've always just assumed he wanted people to think he was taking a hostage. What if he actually did not plan it that way? We've always talked in terms of four parachutes, but the reality is it was only two chutes. No one jumps just a reserve unless they have a death wish.
3. On jumping a single chute. A question for Martin Andrade as he did research into WWII pilots. Did pilots and aircrew have a main and a reserve, or did they just have a main? They certainly did not wear a bulky chute in front while flying, as it would interfere with the controls of the plane. How about bomber crews? They would not have flown wearing their chutes, but would they have a main and a reserve, or just a main?
So, a paratrooper would have asked for two mains and two reserves. A skydiver would have asked for two complete rigs. Who would have asked for two fronts and two backs? I'm probably overthinking this one, but I'm curious to hear from people.
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All emergency rigs just have a main. Even modern jet ejection systems only have one main canopy, amazingly STILL a 28 ft ripstop C-9 model. Old, but proven reliability.
BASE jumpers don't normally carry reserves.
I have over 1000 jumps and twice have had to cut away from my malfunctioning main and go to my reserve. I obviously think reserves are nice to have.
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Cooper asked for two front chutes, and two back chutes..many believe this was to make the FBI believe he was taking someone with him and could stop them from tampering with the chutes, or trying to kill him while trying to get away..
A reserve chute gets in the way of flying the plane so they are not part of the gear..
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In modern skydiving rigs, both main and reserve canopies are carried in the back container, so theoretically today's emergency rigs could include reserves. The complexity and chances for double deployment screwups are thought to outweigh the benefits.
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Cooper asked for two front chutes, and two back chutes..many believe this was to make the FBI believe he was taking someone with him and could stop them from tampering with the chutes, or trying to kill him while trying to get away..
A reserve chute gets in the way of flying the plane so they are not part of the gear..
Once again the FBI may have been guessing out loud. He may have only wanted a number of chutes to select from and for contingency. And it served his purpose to ask for multiple chutes - they failed to deliver the back pack! At times it sounds like he's the only sane person there!
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The consensus is DB Cooper asked for four parachutes, two front and two back.
1. Did he say two front and two back, or did he say two mains and two reserves? A skydiver would have just asked for a rig. A paratrooper would have known to ask for two, but he would have said a main and a reserve, not a front and back. Who would ask for a front and back, but not say main and reserve?
2. Didn't he in fact ask for two parachutes? Two complete setups, not four. Could he have not thought out the hostage piece, and was really just asking for two sets in case he thought he would be tricked and given a fake one? Or was he thinking ahead to the hostage part, and planned to only take one hostage? Maybe this was not planned out, and we've always just assumed he wanted people to think he was taking a hostage. What if he actually did not plan it that way? We've always talked in terms of four parachutes, but the reality is it was only two chutes. No one jumps just a reserve unless they have a death wish.
3. On jumping a single chute. A question for Martin Andrade as he did research into WWII pilots. Did pilots and aircrew have a main and a reserve, or did they just have a main? They certainly did not wear a bulky chute in front while flying, as it would interfere with the controls of the plane. How about bomber crews? They would not have flown wearing their chutes, but would they have a main and a reserve, or just a main?
So, a paratrooper would have asked for two mains and two reserves. A skydiver would have asked for two complete rigs. Who would have asked for two fronts and two backs? I'm probably overthinking this one, but I'm curious to hear from people.
If you would like more complete answers to your questions, and to read a comprehensive analysis of the parachutes and all the players participating in their procurement, I invite you to read my book, (DB Cooper and the FBI), or to save money go to the Mountain News and read the many articles I have written on the subject.
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The consensus is DB Cooper asked for four parachutes, two front and two back.
1. Did he say two front and two back, or did he say two mains and two reserves? A skydiver would have just asked for a rig. A paratrooper would have known to ask for two, but he would have said a main and a reserve, not a front and back. Who would ask for a front and back, but not say main and reserve?
2. Didn't he in fact ask for two parachutes? Two complete setups, not four. Could he have not thought out the hostage piece, and was really just asking for two sets in case he thought he would be tricked and given a fake one? Or was he thinking ahead to the hostage part, and planned to only take one hostage? Maybe this was not planned out, and we've always just assumed he wanted people to think he was taking a hostage. What if he actually did not plan it that way? We've always talked in terms of four parachutes, but the reality is it was only two chutes. No one jumps just a reserve unless they have a death wish.
3. On jumping a single chute. A question for Martin Andrade as he did research into WWII pilots. Did pilots and aircrew have a main and a reserve, or did they just have a main? They certainly did not wear a bulky chute in front while flying, as it would interfere with the controls of the plane. How about bomber crews? They would not have flown wearing their chutes, but would they have a main and a reserve, or just a main?
So, a paratrooper would have asked for two mains and two reserves. A skydiver would have asked for two complete rigs. Who would have asked for two fronts and two backs? I'm probably overthinking this one, but I'm curious to hear from people.
If you would like more complete answers to your questions, and to read a comprehensive analysis of the parachutes and all the players participating in their procurement, I invite you to read my book, (DB Cooper and the FBI), or to save money go to the Mountain News and read the many articles I have written on the subject.
Just to save time, you can read everything to be known about the parachute acquisitions and delivery on this site. And to save you even more time, Earl Cossey didn't have anything to do with the acquisition of any of the parachutes. And Cossey did not own any of them either despite his claims or Bruce Smith's claims to the contrary.
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1. Did he say two front and two back, or did he say two mains and two reserves?
He definitely said "front" and "back". Cooper may have been "talking down" and using simpler nomenclature because he couldn't know what level of expertise he was dealing with on the other end. Regardless, it tells us very little about Cooper.
2. No one jumps just a reserve unless they have a death wish.
Robb Heady used a reserve for his hijacking
3. On jumping a single chute. A question for Martin Andrade as he did research into WWII pilots. Did pilots and aircrew have a main and a reserve, or did they just have a main? They certainly did not wear a bulky chute in front while flying, as it would interfere with the controls of the plane. How about bomber crews? They would not have flown wearing their chutes, but would they have a main and a reserve, or just a main?
Bomber crews used a single emergency parachute, which you can call a "main" though that is misleading. Same with fighter pilots. American crews [almost] always wore their parachutes, while RAF crews would often have to clip their parachutes onto their harnesses in an emergency. This resulted in several RAF airmen being forced to clip their emergency parachutes to their harnesses in freefall. At least one airmen I found was only able to clip his parachute to his harness on one ring, resulting in an asymmetric force across his harness during deployal (ouch). He survived, though badly injured. I intend to review all of these instances in greater depth than I did in my book in the coming months (on my personal website).
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2. No one jumps just a reserve unless they have a death wish.
Robb Heady used a reserve for his hijacking
So did McNally....
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In response to Georger's reply #5186 on R.E. New Forum and News Updates thread :
As always, one question about this case brings up many more. At times he seems educated (book smart) without any practical experience. He knew how to operate stairs just not location of controls? puzzling.. I know he struggled to open the stairway but that was due to upforce of the wind wasn't it?
Also knew Tina didn't need tethered before opening door. How would he know this? From a book or practical experience? Where would he find this? puzzling..
Book smarts? Practical experience? Could someone have just told him this info ahead of time? I don't know, just puzzling.
I. don't know where I am going with this. It just feels like we are missing a chance to maybe discover a clue to his past.( my own opinion)
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Who was the real DB Cooper?
I'm not talking about the man who hijacked Flight 305, who as we know actually used the alias Dan Cooper. I mean the man actually named DB Cooper who was questioned by a reporter shortly after the hijacking. Does anyone here know who exactly he was? Forgive me if this has been asked before or is common knowledge around here, I'm relatively new to studying this case.
Wouldn't it be something if he was actually the hijacker all along?
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Who was the real DB Cooper?
I'm not talking about the man who hijacked Flight 305, who as we know actually used the alias Dan Cooper. I mean the man actually named DB Cooper who was questioned by a reporter shortly after the hijacking. Does anyone here know who exactly he was? Forgive me if this has been asked before or is common knowledge around here, I'm relatively new to studying this case.
Wouldn't it be something if he was actually the hijacker all along?
Local police and FBI agents immediately began questioning possible suspects. An Oregon man named D. B. Cooper who had a minor police record was one of the first persons of interest in the case. He was contacted by Portland police on the off-chance that the hijacker had used his real name or the same alias in a previous crime. He was quickly ruled out as a suspect, but a local reporter named James Long, rushing to meet a deadline, confused the eliminated suspect's name with the pseudonym used by the hijacker.[49][50] A wire service reporter (Clyde Jabin of UPI by most accounts,[51][52] Joe Frazier of the AP by others[53]) republished the error, followed by numerous other media sources; the moniker "D. B. Cooper" became lodged in the public's collective memory.[44]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._B._Cooper
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I appreciate the response but I'm looking for more specific information, ie. Date of birth? Occupation? Do we have a picture of him? Arrest records? Is he still alive? Did he have a wife and kids? Assuming his first name is Daniel, what does the B stand for? Etc. etc.
Just trying to figure out if we actually know who this guy is.
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I appreciate the response but I'm looking for more specific information, ie. Date of birth? Occupation? Do we have a picture of him? Arrest records? Is he still alive? Did he have a wife and kids? Assuming his first name is Daniel, what does the B stand for? Etc. etc.
Just trying to figure out if we actually know who this guy is.
At one time we had all of this but that was years ago. Maybe someone here remembers? Is there a reason for your interest?
Try here? http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=Daniel%20Cooper&sb=score&mh=25
Early newspaper articles would give more details ...
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Thanks. I'll give it a look.
Mostly just curiosity. I just find it odd that the hijacker was named after some random guy who was at least briefly considered a suspect, and is still known to this day by that name instead of the name he actually used. I want to know more about this guy whose name accidentally became an icon of our culture. I wonder what he thought about it.
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If Cooper, or at least the money, survived, in what ways could the bills be used without detection? Spent a little at a time? Do bank machines look at serial numbers?
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If Cooper, or at least the money, survived, in what ways could the bills be used without detection? Spent a little at a time? Do bank machines look at serial numbers?
This is a great question.
I spoke with Ayn Dietrich Williams about this a few years back. She confirmed my suspicions that the FBI really isn't certain whether the money re-entered circulation or not. She stated that the only way a bill would have been noticed was if someone manually compared a serial number to the pages-long list of Cooper's bills. Obviously this is highly unlikely, especially after some time has passed.
Furthermore, Sheridan Peterson opened a numbered bank account in Singapore in 1971. This was a very easy, and "protected" way to "launder" the money no-questions asked. After all, the purpose of these accounts was to draw in discreet money, primarily from the Middle East...that said, money from Seattle was welcome too.
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Thanks EU.
I understand SP was living in Singapore, so opening a bank account alone wouldn't be all that suspicious. Are there more details? What is a 'numbered' bank account, no name attached to it? How was revealed that he had the account? Can the same source determine deposits, balances etc.?
You are great asset to this forum, nice for someone with only a passing interest to get questions answered, and without the rudeness, name calling and animosity that goes on. Perhaps more people would get involved if not for all that.
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$20 bills last an average of 7.7 years in circulation..
Did any money survive the jump with Cooper? we don't know
Could it have been laundered undetected? sure
All we know is none was ever found other than TBAR. Some were checking soon after the hijacking but as years went by I doubt anybody was checking $20 serial numbers. (other than a few sleuths)
As EU alludes,, if the money were taken overseas, no way it could have been detected.
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Thanks EU.
I understand SP was living in Singapore, so opening a bank account alone wouldn't be all that suspicious. Are there more details? What is a 'numbered' bank account, no name attached to it? How was revealed that he had the account? Can the same source determine deposits, balances etc.?
You are great asset to this forum, nice for someone with only a passing interest to get questions answered, and without the rudeness, name calling and animosity that goes on. Perhaps more people would get involved if not for all that.
Sheridan was actually living in Nepal at the time, 2300 miles away.
The Government of Singapore passed a major overhaul of their banking system in 1970. These new banking regulations took effect on January 1, 1971. Included in these regulations were provisions that allowed for numbered bank accounts, similar to those in Switzerland.
Numbered bank accounts are completely confidential and allow the account holder to only be known by a number. Additionally, there are provisions built in the law that prohibit the bank from releasing any account information to authorities from other countries. Simply put, numbered accounts afford their owners the ability to utilize the banking system with complete anonymity which is favored by people who want to hide assets.
The catch is that the accounts require significant initial deposits to open. Nowadays, sums north of $1 million can be expected as a required initial deposit. Additionally, the fees are much higher than those associated with standard bank accounts.
Sheridan revealed the existence of his numbered account personally. I have documentation backing this up.
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
If it was a secret numbered bank account how can it be confirmed? (SP statements are unreliable)
and legislation passed in Jan 1971 but it wasn't implemented until 1972.. not started by (at least) March 1972..
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19720319-1.2.87.6?ST=1&AT=filter&K=numbered+account&KA=numbered+account&DF=&DT=&Display=0&AO=false&NPT=&L=&CTA=&NID=&CT=&WC=&YR=1972&QT=numbered,account&oref=article
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
If it was a secret numbered bank account how can it be confirmed? (SP statements are unreliable)
and legislation passed in Jan 1971 but it wasn't implemented until 1972.. not started by (at least) March 1972..
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19720319-1.2.87.6?ST=1&AT=filter&K=numbered+account&KA=numbered+account&DF=&DT=&Display=0&AO=false&NPT=&L=&CTA=&NID=&CT=&WC=&YR=1972&QT=numbered,account&oref=article
Sheridan's comments are absolutely reliable. I have yet to find a single example of him exaggerating about anything that he has done. When he says he did something, he did it. His memory is a steel trap and he remembers things in great detail
The Act was passed in 1970 and implemented January 1, 1971.
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
If it was a secret numbered bank account how can it be confirmed? (SP statements are unreliable)
and legislation passed in Jan 1971 but it wasn't implemented until 1972.. not started by (at least) March 1972..
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19720319-1.2.87.6?ST=1&AT=filter&K=numbered+account&KA=numbered+account&DF=&DT=&Display=0&AO=false&NPT=&L=&CTA=&NID=&CT=&WC=&YR=1972&QT=numbered,account&oref=article
I just read the article you linked.
If the article is accurate, then it appears the numbered bank accounts were not yet available in 1971. That would certainly prove that the account could not have been opened in 1971.
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
If it was a secret numbered bank account how can it be confirmed? (SP statements are unreliable)
and legislation passed in Jan 1971 but it wasn't implemented until 1972.. not started by (at least) March 1972..
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19720319-1.2.87.6?ST=1&AT=filter&K=numbered+account&KA=numbered+account&DF=&DT=&Display=0&AO=false&NPT=&L=&CTA=&NID=&CT=&WC=&YR=1972&QT=numbered,account&oref=article
Sheridan's comments are absolutely reliable. I have yet to find a single example of him exaggerating about anything that he has done. When he says he did something, he did it. His memory is a steel trap and he remembers things in great detail
The Act was passed in 1970 and implemented January 1, 1971.
Bill in 1970..
Passed in 1971
(numbered accounts) Implemented beyond March 1972.
Now, he may have had a numbered account later, but they weren't offered as of March 1972.
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
If it was a secret numbered bank account how can it be confirmed? (SP statements are unreliable)
and legislation passed in Jan 1971 but it wasn't implemented until 1972.. not started by (at least) March 1972..
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19720319-1.2.87.6?ST=1&AT=filter&K=numbered+account&KA=numbered+account&DF=&DT=&Display=0&AO=false&NPT=&L=&CTA=&NID=&CT=&WC=&YR=1972&QT=numbered,account&oref=article
Sheridan's comments are absolutely reliable. I have yet to find a single example of him exaggerating about anything that he has done. When he says he did something, he did it. His memory is a steel trap and he remembers things in great detail
The Act was passed in 1970 and implemented January 1, 1971.
Bill in 1970..
Passed in 1971
(numbered accounts) Implemented beyond March 1972.
Now, he may have had a numbered account later, but they weren't offered as of March 1972.
I'm not sure where you're getting this.
The Banking Act of 1970 was passed in 1970. It was implemented January 1, 1971.
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/7668e283-d61b-4acd-b2e7-f84745ef6170
https://books.google.com/books?id=lAChksdNj0MC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=singapore+banking+act+1970&source=bl&ots=02gZSULuwM&sig=TbPvYD3eAOSj_n7BjxVe-nDCorQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN8s_Tq6TdAhWo0FQKHZDnDxcQ6AEwCHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=singapore%20banking%20act%201970&f=false
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
If it was a secret numbered bank account how can it be confirmed? (SP statements are unreliable)
and legislation passed in Jan 1971 but it wasn't implemented until 1972.. not started by (at least) March 1972..
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19720319-1.2.87.6?ST=1&AT=filter&K=numbered+account&KA=numbered+account&DF=&DT=&Display=0&AO=false&NPT=&L=&CTA=&NID=&CT=&WC=&YR=1972&QT=numbered,account&oref=article
Sheridan's comments are absolutely reliable. I have yet to find a single example of him exaggerating about anything that he has done. When he says he did something, he did it. His memory is a steel trap and he remembers things in great detail
The Act was passed in 1970 and implemented January 1, 1971.
Bill in 1970..
Passed in 1971
(numbered accounts) Implemented beyond March 1972.
Now, he may have had a numbered account later, but they weren't offered as of March 1972.
I'm not sure where you're getting this.
The Banking Act of 1970 was passed in 1970. It was implemented January 1, 1971.
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/7668e283-d61b-4acd-b2e7-f84745ef6170
https://books.google.com/books?id=lAChksdNj0MC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=singapore+banking+act+1970&source=bl&ots=02gZSULuwM&sig=TbPvYD3eAOSj_n7BjxVe-nDCorQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN8s_Tq6TdAhWo0FQKHZDnDxcQ6AEwCHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=singapore%20banking%20act%201970&f=false
Numbered accounts... passed but none implemented.. until after March 1972
"(2) No bank in Singapore shall open numbered accounts for its customers except with the prior approval in writing of the Authority which may attach such limitations, conditions, qualifications and exceptions thereto as it thinks fit."
https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act-Rev/BA1970/Published/19991230?DocDate=19940315#P1VIII-
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
If it was a secret numbered bank account how can it be confirmed? (SP statements are unreliable)
and legislation passed in Jan 1971 but it wasn't implemented until 1972.. not started by (at least) March 1972..
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19720319-1.2.87.6?ST=1&AT=filter&K=numbered+account&KA=numbered+account&DF=&DT=&Display=0&AO=false&NPT=&L=&CTA=&NID=&CT=&WC=&YR=1972&QT=numbered,account&oref=article
Sheridan's comments are absolutely reliable. I have yet to find a single example of him exaggerating about anything that he has done. When he says he did something, he did it. His memory is a steel trap and he remembers things in great detail
The Act was passed in 1970 and implemented January 1, 1971.
Bill in 1970..
Passed in 1971
(numbered accounts) Implemented beyond March 1972.
Now, he may have had a numbered account later, but they weren't offered as of March 1972.
I'm not sure where you're getting this.
The Banking Act of 1970 was passed in 1970. It was implemented January 1, 1971.
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/7668e283-d61b-4acd-b2e7-f84745ef6170
https://books.google.com/books?id=lAChksdNj0MC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=singapore+banking+act+1970&source=bl&ots=02gZSULuwM&sig=TbPvYD3eAOSj_n7BjxVe-nDCorQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN8s_Tq6TdAhWo0FQKHZDnDxcQ6AEwCHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=singapore%20banking%20act%201970&f=false
Again, if the news report is accurate, then banks actually started to offer numbered accounts shortly after March of 1972--four months after the hijacking. This would mean that Sheridan was incorrect when he stated that he opened the account in 1971. Obviously, this is entirely possible and not a big deal.
The other aspect that is noteworthy is that by the time Sheridan opened the numbered account--again, somewhere after March 1972 if the article is accurate--he had not been working for at least 19 months. Needless to say, this is odd.
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
If it was a secret numbered bank account how can it be confirmed? (SP statements are unreliable)
and legislation passed in Jan 1971 but it wasn't implemented until 1972.. not started by (at least) March 1972..
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19720319-1.2.87.6?ST=1&AT=filter&K=numbered+account&KA=numbered+account&DF=&DT=&Display=0&AO=false&NPT=&L=&CTA=&NID=&CT=&WC=&YR=1972&QT=numbered,account&oref=article
Sheridan's comments are absolutely reliable. I have yet to find a single example of him exaggerating about anything that he has done. When he says he did something, he did it. His memory is a steel trap and he remembers things in great detail
The Act was passed in 1970 and implemented January 1, 1971.
Bill in 1970..
Passed in 1971
(numbered accounts) Implemented beyond March 1972.
Now, he may have had a numbered account later, but they weren't offered as of March 1972.
I'm not sure where you're getting this.
The Banking Act of 1970 was passed in 1970. It was implemented January 1, 1971.
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/7668e283-d61b-4acd-b2e7-f84745ef6170
https://books.google.com/books?id=lAChksdNj0MC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=singapore+banking+act+1970&source=bl&ots=02gZSULuwM&sig=TbPvYD3eAOSj_n7BjxVe-nDCorQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN8s_Tq6TdAhWo0FQKHZDnDxcQ6AEwCHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=singapore%20banking%20act%201970&f=false
Again, if the news report is accurate, then banks actually started to offer numbered accounts shortly after March of 1972--four months after the hijacking. This would mean that Sheridan was incorrect when he stated that he opened the account in 1971. Obviously, this is entirely possible and not a big deal.
The other aspect that is noteworthy is that by the time Sheridan opened the numbered account--again, somewhere after March 1972 if the article is accurate--he had not been working for at least 19 months. Needless to say, this is odd.
Perhaps SP is not being entirely truthful.. or embellishing.
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Numbered accounts... passed but none implemented.. until after March 1972
"(2) No bank in Singapore shall open numbered accounts for its customers except with the prior approval in writing of the Authority which may attach such limitations, conditions, qualifications and exceptions thereto as it thinks fit."
https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act-Rev/BA1970/Published/19991230?DocDate=19940315#P1VIII-
This is merely the language in the Act. All it is saying is that a bank needs to get approval from the banking authority before they offer numbered accounts, or for that matter, any type of account.
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Perhaps SP is not being entirely truthful.. or embellishing.
Well you'll need to point to a specific example of him embellishing before I'm convicting the guy of embellishing. Furthermore, you'll need to explain how he survived and supported a family with no income for 2 1/2 years--there is no disputing this fact. Finally, you'll need to explain how he could afford to travel all over the world for the next 25 years essentially working part time.
Has it occurred to you that perhaps SP was Cooper?
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Numbered accounts... passed but none implemented.. until after March 1972
"(2) No bank in Singapore shall open numbered accounts for its customers except with the prior approval in writing of the Authority which may attach such limitations, conditions, qualifications and exceptions thereto as it thinks fit."
https://sso.agc.gov.sg/Act-Rev/BA1970/Published/19991230?DocDate=19940315#P1VIII-
This is merely the language in the Act. All it is saying is that a bank needs to get approval from the banking authority before they offer numbered accounts, or for that matter, any type of account.
yes, what it essentially means is the "numbered account" use is subject to approval which explains the delay after passing. The specific conditions and qualifications are not expressed.
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I have to compliment FLYJACK on the find of the March 1972 The Straits Times article. I had not seen this article before today.
To the extent that it's accurate, it helps solidify a timeline of events regarding Sheridan as far as I'm concerned. No longer did he have to get to Singapore within a month of the hijacking.
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Perhaps SP is not being entirely truthful.. or embellishing.
Well you'll need to point to a specific example of him embellishing before I'm convicting the guy of embellishing. Furthermore, you'll need to explain how he survived and supported a family with no income for 2 1/2 years--there is no disputing this fact. Finally, you'll need to explain how he could afford to travel all over the world for the next 25 years essentially working part time.
Has it occurred to you that perhaps SP was Cooper?
Many travel and support themselves through legal or illegal means, just because you don't know how he supported himself doesn't make him Cooper. Lots of those guys became drug dealers...
You should assume he is untruthful... be skeptical to be a critical thinker.
As for SP being Cooper, IMO, the case is very weak circumstantial and similar could be applied to tens of thousands of people..
Is it possible, sure. but to be honest, I have been focussed on researching Hahneman, a much much better suspect. (based on info I have)
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Perhaps SP is not being entirely truthful.. or embellishing.
Well you'll need to point to a specific example of him embellishing before I'm convicting the guy of embellishing. Furthermore, you'll need to explain how he survived and supported a family with no income for 2 1/2 years--there is no disputing this fact. Finally, you'll need to explain how he could afford to travel all over the world for the next 25 years essentially working part time.
Has it occurred to you that perhaps SP was Cooper?
Many travel and support themselves through legal or illegal means, just because you don't know how he supported himself doesn't make him Cooper. Lots of those guys became drug dealers...
You should assume he is untruthful... be skeptical to be a critical thinker.
As for SP being Cooper, IMO, the case is very weak circumstantial and similar could be applied to tens of thousands of people..
Is it possible, sure. but to be honest, I have been focussed on researching Hahneman, a much much better suspect. (based on info I have)
I do not concur. I have little doubt Sheridan was Cooper based on the totality of the evidence and my dealings with the man. Furthermore, the FBI has arguably considered him one of, if not the, top suspect for decades.
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Perhaps SP is not being entirely truthful.. or embellishing.
Well you'll need to point to a specific example of him embellishing before I'm convicting the guy of embellishing. Furthermore, you'll need to explain how he survived and supported a family with no income for 2 1/2 years--there is no disputing this fact. Finally, you'll need to explain how he could afford to travel all over the world for the next 25 years essentially working part time.
Has it occurred to you that perhaps SP was Cooper?
Many travel and support themselves through legal or illegal means, just because you don't know how he supported himself doesn't make him Cooper. Lots of those guys became drug dealers...
You should assume he is untruthful... be skeptical to be a critical thinker.
As for SP being Cooper, IMO, the case is very weak circumstantial and similar could be applied to tens of thousands of people..
Is it possible, sure. but to be honest, I have been focussed on researching Hahneman, a much much better suspect. (based on info I have)
I do not concur. I have little doubt Sheridan was Cooper based on the totality of the evidence and my dealings with the man. Furthermore, the FBI has arguably considered him one of, if not the, top suspect for decades.
I know that you are convinced and that is all that really matters. What I or anyone believes is (should be) irrelevant to you.
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I know that you are convinced and that is all that really matters. What I or anyone believes is (should be) irrelevant to you.
It's important for me to draw a distinction here.
I don't have a horse in this race. What I think matters little as far as the truth is concerned. Cooper was who Cooper was and there isn't a damn thing I can do to change that fact.
I desired to know the truth. Therefore, I decided to investigate the matter on my own. I really didn't know what I'd find. Nonetheless, after 10 years I believe I have found a lot. In my mind, it all points to Sheridan.
However, as I stated earlier, I don't have a horse in this race. I merely have an opinion.
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$20 bills last an average of 7.7 years in circulation..
Did any money survive the jump with Cooper? we don't know
Could it have been laundered undetected? sure
All we know is none was ever found other than TBAR. Some were checking soon after the hijacking but as years went by I doubt anybody was checking $20 serial numbers. (other than a few sleuths)
As EU alludes,, if the money were taken overseas, no way it could have been detected.
What happens after the average 7.7 years in circulation? If it's destroyed and replaced, are the serial numbers recorded, re-used, or do they just keep adding new ones? Seems like that would add a lot of new digits.
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It's my understanding they only look for counterfeit bills....
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Many always wondered if a copy of the radar tapes of the flight were made..according to this document they were...
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Many always wondered if a copy of the radar tapes of the flight were made..according to this document they were...
At this point I question the logic of holding anything back. If they have left the door open on a couple of suspects I can understand, but only if they're still alive. Otherwise, release the info.
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Many always wondered if a copy of the radar tapes of the flight were made..according to this document they were...
At this point I question the logic of holding anything back. If they have left the door open on a couple of suspects I can understand, but only if they're still alive. Otherwise, release the info.
YES, release the CRACKEN... unless they are hiding something..
Where did the radio go??
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
If it was a secret numbered bank account how can it be confirmed? (SP statements are unreliable)
and legislation passed in Jan 1971 but it wasn't implemented until 1972.. not started by (at least) March 1972..
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19720319-1.2.87.6?ST=1&AT=filter&K=numbered+account&KA=numbered+account&DF=&DT=&Display=0&AO=false&NPT=&L=&CTA=&NID=&CT=&WC=&YR=1972&QT=numbered,account&oref=article
Sheridan's comments are absolutely reliable. I have yet to find a single example of him exaggerating about anything that he has done. When he says he did something, he did it. His memory is a steel trap and he remembers things in great detail
The Act was passed in 1970 and implemented January 1, 1971.
Bill in 1970..
Passed in 1971
(numbered accounts) Implemented beyond March 1972.
Now, he may have had a numbered account later, but they weren't offered as of March 1972.”
I'm not sure where you're getting this.
The Banking Act of 1970 was passed in 1970. It was implemented January 1, 1971.
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/7668e283-d61b-4acd-b2e7-f84745ef6170
https://books.google.com/books?id=lAChksdNj0MC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=singapore+banking+act+1970&source=bl&ots=02gZSULuwM&sig=TbPvYD3eAOSj_n7BjxVe-nDCorQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN8s_Tq6TdAhWo0FQKHZDnDxcQ6AEwCHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=singapore%20banking%20act%201970&f=false
Again, if the news report is accurate, then banks actually started to offer numbered accounts shortly after March of 1972--four months after the hijacking. This would mean that Sheridan was incorrect when he stated that he opened the account in 1971. Obviously, this is entirely possible and not a big deal.
The other aspect that is noteworthy is that by the time Sheridan opened the numbered account--again, somewhere after March 1972 if the article is accurate--he had not been working for at least 19 months. Needless to say, this is odd.
I keep hearing about SP having this numbered account. How do you know this ? Have you seen any evidence of him having this numbered account ?
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BTW,,
I just talked to a friend who spent nearly a year in Nepal in the 70's.. he said it was dirt cheap.. you could live like a king on next to nothing...
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apparently, Cooper wasn't very appealing to the stews...
Edit: I meant the stews didn't find Cooper attractive...I mistakenly wrote they thought he was...
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apparently, Cooper was very appealing to the stews...
They also had to redo the "bing" sketch..
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
If it was a secret numbered bank account how can it be confirmed? (SP statements are unreliable)
and legislation passed in Jan 1971 but it wasn't implemented until 1972.. not started by (at least) March 1972..
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19720319-1.2.87.6?ST=1&AT=filter&K=numbered+account&KA=numbered+account&DF=&DT=&Display=0&AO=false&NPT=&L=&CTA=&NID=&CT=&WC=&YR=1972&QT=numbered,account&oref=article
Sheridan's comments are absolutely reliable. I have yet to find a single example of him exaggerating about anything that he has done. When he says he did something, he did it. His memory is a steel trap and he remembers things in great detail
The Act was passed in 1970 and implemented January 1, 1971.
Bill in 1970..
Passed in 1971
(numbered accounts) Implemented beyond March 1972.
Now, he may have had a numbered account later, but they weren't offered as of March 1972.”
I'm not sure where you're getting this.
The Banking Act of 1970 was passed in 1970. It was implemented January 1, 1971.
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/7668e283-d61b-4acd-b2e7-f84745ef6170
https://books.google.com/books?id=lAChksdNj0MC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=singapore+banking+act+1970&source=bl&ots=02gZSULuwM&sig=TbPvYD3eAOSj_n7BjxVe-nDCorQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN8s_Tq6TdAhWo0FQKHZDnDxcQ6AEwCHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=singapore%20banking%20act%201970&f=false
Again, if the news report is accurate, then banks actually started to offer numbered accounts shortly after March of 1972--four months after the hijacking. This would mean that Sheridan was incorrect when he stated that he opened the account in 1971. Obviously, this is entirely possible and not a big deal.
The other aspect that is noteworthy is that by the time Sheridan opened the numbered account--again, somewhere after March 1972 if the article is accurate--he had not been working for at least 19 months. Needless to say, this is odd.
I keep hearing about SP having this numbered account. How do you know this ? Have you seen any evidence of him having this numbered account ?
I know this because he said so.
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
If it was a secret numbered bank account how can it be confirmed? (SP statements are unreliable)
and legislation passed in Jan 1971 but it wasn't implemented until 1972.. not started by (at least) March 1972..
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19720319-1.2.87.6?ST=1&AT=filter&K=numbered+account&KA=numbered+account&DF=&DT=&Display=0&AO=false&NPT=&L=&CTA=&NID=&CT=&WC=&YR=1972&QT=numbered,account&oref=article
Sheridan's comments are absolutely reliable. I have yet to find a single example of him exaggerating about anything that he has done. When he says he did something, he did it. His memory is a steel trap and he remembers things in great detail
The Act was passed in 1970 and implemented January 1, 1971.
Bill in 1970..
Passed in 1971
(numbered accounts) Implemented beyond March 1972.
Now, he may have had a numbered account later, but they weren't offered as of March 1972.”
I'm not sure where you're getting this.
The Banking Act of 1970 was passed in 1970. It was implemented January 1, 1971.
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/7668e283-d61b-4acd-b2e7-f84745ef6170
https://books.google.com/books?id=lAChksdNj0MC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=singapore+banking+act+1970&source=bl&ots=02gZSULuwM&sig=TbPvYD3eAOSj_n7BjxVe-nDCorQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN8s_Tq6TdAhWo0FQKHZDnDxcQ6AEwCHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=singapore%20banking%20act%201970&f=false
Again, if the news report is accurate, then banks actually started to offer numbered accounts shortly after March of 1972--four months after the hijacking. This would mean that Sheridan was incorrect when he stated that he opened the account in 1971. Obviously, this is entirely possible and not a big deal.
The other aspect that is noteworthy is that by the time Sheridan opened the numbered account--again, somewhere after March 1972 if the article is accurate--he had not been working for at least 19 months. Needless to say, this is odd.
I keep hearing about SP having this numbered account. How do you know this ? Have you seen any evidence of him having this numbered account ?
I know this because he said so.
Ok. I’m just not into accepting something as factual when there is no collaboration. We know that there’s a lot of people who take pride in being a D B Cooper suspect. Even our own 377 said a lot of his Skyjumping friends were flattered when they were interviewed by FBI and he felt slightly hurt that nobody interviewed him. As proof that there are many individuals who want to be COOP is how many death bed confessions we already have. SP is,a,good suspect but his saying he had a numbered account doesn’t make it a fact ! JMHO
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Sheridan reveals the bank account, delves into the parachute details. Was he toying with the investigators?
The FBI was unaware of the numbered bank account. Details regarding the dummy reserve strike me as simply not knowing what is public information. I do not believe he was toying with investigators, however, he has not explicitly denied being Cooper to the FBI which I consider odd. Even when he was asked on the History Channel documentary if he had been asked about being Cooper by the FBI he laughed it off and said, "I'm a nice guy."
If it was a secret numbered bank account how can it be confirmed? (SP statements are unreliable)
and legislation passed in Jan 1971 but it wasn't implemented until 1972.. not started by (at least) March 1972..
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/newspapers/Digitised/Article/straitstimes19720319-1.2.87.6?ST=1&AT=filter&K=numbered+account&KA=numbered+account&DF=&DT=&Display=0&AO=false&NPT=&L=&CTA=&NID=&CT=&WC=&YR=1972&QT=numbered,account&oref=article
Sheridan's comments are absolutely reliable. I have yet to find a single example of him exaggerating about anything that he has done. When he says he did something, he did it. His memory is a steel trap and he remembers things in great detail
The Act was passed in 1970 and implemented January 1, 1971.
Bill in 1970..
Passed in 1971
(numbered accounts) Implemented beyond March 1972.
Now, he may have had a numbered account later, but they weren't offered as of March 1972.”
I'm not sure where you're getting this.
The Banking Act of 1970 was passed in 1970. It was implemented January 1, 1971.
http://eresources.nlb.gov.sg/history/events/7668e283-d61b-4acd-b2e7-f84745ef6170
https://books.google.com/books?id=lAChksdNj0MC&pg=PA59&lpg=PA59&dq=singapore+banking+act+1970&source=bl&ots=02gZSULuwM&sig=TbPvYD3eAOSj_n7BjxVe-nDCorQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjN8s_Tq6TdAhWo0FQKHZDnDxcQ6AEwCHoECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=singapore%20banking%20act%201970&f=false
Again, if the news report is accurate, then banks actually started to offer numbered accounts shortly after March of 1972--four months after the hijacking. This would mean that Sheridan was incorrect when he stated that he opened the account in 1971. Obviously, this is entirely possible and not a big deal.
The other aspect that is noteworthy is that by the time Sheridan opened the numbered account--again, somewhere after March 1972 if the article is accurate--he had not been working for at least 19 months. Needless to say, this is odd.
I keep hearing about SP having this numbered account. How do you know this ? Have you seen any evidence of him having this numbered account ?
I know this because he said so.
Ok. I’m just not into accepting something as factual when there is no collaboration. We know that there’s a lot of people who take pride in being a D B Cooper suspect. Even our own 377 said a lot of his Skyjumping friends were flattered when they were interviewed by FBI and he felt slightly hurt that nobody interviewed him. As proof that there are many individuals who want to be COOP is how many death bed confessions we already have. SP is,a,good suspect but his saying he had a numbered account doesn’t make it a fact ! JMHO
Fair enough. But here are some important things to consider:
1) Sheridan has avoided anything that could implicate him in this matter. Why would he lie about this?
2) His autobiography (slightly fictionalized) refers to a Swiss Bank numbered account.
3) He did not work for 2 1/2 years while living in Nepal. Meanwhile he had two children born there and a wife to support. How did he handle this with zero income?
4) Sheridan's employment was very on-again-off-again and he made little for than $5,000 in any one year leading up to moving to Nepal.
5) After leaving Nepal Sheridan spent time in Vietnam, Hong Kong, China, Russia, Papua New Guinea, Japan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Iran and the United States that we know of. Not to mention that the numbered account would have to have been opened in Switzerland. How does he afford this considering he was travelling with his children?
6) Sheridan also revealed that he regularly lent money and got taken advantage of financially during his time in Asia. Again, where did this money come from?
7) I cannot find one instance where Sheridan commented about doing something that wasn't true--skydiving in China for his 71st birthday, sport jumping in Vietnam during the war, experimenting with bat wings decades before this was approved by the USPA, witnessing Tienanmen Square Massacre, setting up a Freedom School in Mississippi during the 1965 Race Riots, etc. Yet we're asked to believe that a comment about a numbered account is a lie?
Frankly, this is just scratching the surface when it comes to Sheridan. There is no debating that Sheridan has not been publicly cleared by the FBI by virtue of his DNA comparison with Cooper even though the other two, Weber and LD, have. Furthermore, there is no debating that Larry Carr in 2009 took up an interest in Sheridan going as far as speaking with him and buying his book without telling Sheridan that he was an FBI agent, oh by the way, the FBI agent heading up NORJAK at that point. Of course, there is also the FBI travelling to California, Washington and Nepal to investigate Sheridan...twice.
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just as many other unsolved crimes occur most have plenty of myths, twists & turns...I use the Alcatraz escape a lot in my comments when foul play is a possibility...there's another that has always interested me and that's the gunfight at the OK Corral..this has been unresolved since 1881...one side claims murder, while the other claims self defense. the original transcripts of the court hearings almost got thrown away..the last good show I watched about this concluded that it was possible that Doc Holiday started the whole thing when he pulled back the levers on his double barrel shotgun..
The area was very small..I have included the only known picture of the lot from the back...the second pic is one that Wyatt made with extreme detail showing where all parties were at during the battle. Wyatt out lived them all passing in 1929..137 years have passed and still no definitive answers or exactly what happened in those 30 seconds of time have ever been given on a real conclusion..I don't think it's possible in this case...
The final pic was taken in the 30's I believe showing the front view of the crime scene...the water ditch in Wyatt's drawing can still be seen...Fly's photography would of been to the left.several fires destroyed most of the original Tombstone years before that photo was taken.
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If you ever watch "cold case files" or any show similar you will see a pattern...the pattern is something overlooked, or inaccurate. this case is loaded with mistakes..different jump points, which is understandable to a degree due to new information coming in shortly after the crime..the failure to get a good position of when Cooper jumped has haunted them...I've heard agents say "we had no idea where he jumped" then the money pops up out of nowhere confusing things even further..lots of theories but nothing all agree on what so ever...same for his survival...they put the jump area basically in a long stretch f the flight path from above Merwin lake all the way to the Columbia...that's a huge margin of error IMO.
It can appear he survived looking in from the outside, but did he really? it's very possible, and it's very possible he went into the Columbia, or is lying in the thickets they couldn't penetrate, I don't know one way or the other since they really don't have all the answers themselves.
That's what we are here for. to try and gain some sense into all of this...
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If you ever watch "cold case files" or any show similar you will see a pattern...the pattern is something overlooked, or inaccurate. this case is loaded with mistakes..different jump points, which is understandable to a degree due to new information coming in shortly after the crime..the failure to get a good position of when Cooper jumped has haunted them...I've heard agents say "we had no idea where he jumped" then the money pops up out of nowhere confusing things even further..lots of theories but nothing all agree on what so ever...same for his survival...they put the jump area basically in a long stretch f the flight path from above Merwin lake all the way to the Columbia...that's a huge margin of error IMO.
It can appear he survived looking in from the outside, but did he really? it's very possible, and it's very possible he went into the Columbia, or is lying in the thickets they couldn't penetrate, I don't know one way or the other since they really don't have all the answers themselves.
That's what we are here for. to try and gain some sense into all of this...
yes, most of this case is not based in facts but assumptions..
One lesser theory (of several) I have been exploring is the possibility of Cooper jumping later in the Willamette Valley. The flightpath followed close to the Willamette River for some time through Oregon.. upstream of TBAR. The time close the Willamette River would increase the probability of it being a transportation source for the money.
That would mean that the pressure bump/oscillation would have been caused by Cooper going back up the airtairs into the plane.
I even tried to decipher that "possible" code in the "possible" letter 717171684*.. using a military geolocation system.
It may be a spot in the Willamette Valley on a tree farm.. north of Eugene and West of I5, a real real long shot but hey who knows? If I lived closer and had a metal detector I'd go check it out..
Though I still think it more likely he jumped near the FBI LZ...
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If you ever watch "cold case files" or any show similar you will see a pattern...the pattern is something overlooked, or inaccurate. this case is loaded with mistakes..different jump points, which is understandable to a degree due to new information coming in shortly after the crime..the failure to get a good position of when Cooper jumped has haunted them...I've heard agents say "we had no idea where he jumped" then the money pops up out of nowhere confusing things even further..lots of theories but nothing all agree on what so ever...same for his survival...they put the jump area basically in a long stretch f the flight path from above Merwin lake all the way to the Columbia...that's a huge margin of error IMO.
It can appear he survived looking in from the outside, but did he really? it's very possible, and it's very possible he went into the Columbia, or is lying in the thickets they couldn't penetrate, I don't know one way or the other since they really don't have all the answers themselves.
That's what we are here for. to try and gain some sense into all of this...
Well said about that many cold cases overlook simple things and so I wonder why nobody seems to follow something simple that I think COULD have easily happened. It’s a FACT that Cooper’s caper originated in Portland and no one gave him a ride via commercial Transportation. It also appears that Cooper had planned this caper in advance and certainly had some knowledge of area, 727 and Skyjumping. Was he an expert at any of those ? Debatable but certainly not a total novice. I think it’s very possible that his escape vehicle was in Portland area as that’s where his caper started so how did he get back to Portland ? There are only Two bridges that cross the Columbia river. One is I 5 and it has a 9 man crew monitoring it 24/7 as it’s a draw bridge. The more likely is the railroad bridge and quite a bit more clandestine to cross. I think Coop could have jumped nearer to Battleground area and easily walked out via railroad tracks which go right through that area. His intention would be to cross Columbia to where he parked his car. How did some of the money end in the Columbia and eventually Tina Bar ?
Well Ive been taking the ride over this busy and long bridge. It’s very hard to dodge train without crouching into an occasional little crevice below the tracks. If EU says Cooper ACCIDENTLY dropped a few bundles at Tina Bar, I see no problem with a few bundles falling into the Columbia river as he’s hiding from train. This would not require a deviation from flight path V 23.
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It's all speculation..we have no idea if he took a connecting flight to Portland using another alias. after speaking with one of the agents that was there,(T-bar) it's hard for me to believe they contaminated the area that bad. yes, it was 1971 and you clearly see a lot of mistakes like allowing the media to mix right into the crime scene. we also have no idea he had planned to jump where he did. he had no idea where they were..if he had a radio they surely would of been well aware of his presents listening in..
The silence on the radio is troubling...you read reports of low flying jets people thought was 305 but more than likely it was the fighters making the houses shake searching the area...
McCoy was spot on due to his acting like a co-pilot from the back of the plane putting him very close to where he wanted to land..
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It's all speculation..we have no idea if he took a connecting flight to Portland using another alias. after speaking with one of the agents that was there,(T-bar) it's hard for me to believe they contaminated the area that bad. yes, it was 1971 and you clearly see a lot of mistakes like allowing the media to mix right into the crime scene. we also have no idea he had planned to jump where he did. he had no idea where they were..if he had a radio they surely would of been well aware of his presents listening in..
The silence on the radio is troubling...you read reports of low flying jets people thought was 305 but more than likely it was the fighters making the houses shake searching the area...
McCoy was spot on due to his acting like a co-pilot from the back of the plane putting him very close to where he wanted to land..
I have to disagree strongly because I lived in Portland at the time of the caper and every commercial form of Transportation was closely checked and monitored. That included Planes, Trains,and Automobiles to steal a phrase from a movie. Not a single Cab Driver or anyone reliable reported seeing Cooper. I feel strongly that he was,either dropped off at PDX or walked into the Terminal. People nowadays just don’t seem to understand how totally NO security existed at Airports in 1971 ! Anyone could give any name to buy tickets, you could walk into Airport with knives, guns or whatever and walk right up to gate ! No security checks or X Rays ! I would actually think Cooper was packing a gun as we KNOW he brought along a knife ! Lots of untalked about realities and possibilities exist still.
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Pocket knives are normal and carried by a lot of people..I'm one of them..Cooper would of blended right in with the public..nothing would stick out of the norm with him to be noticed by people to recall him..security would never notice a man in a suit at the airport as unusual, I don't see what you are getting at..he didn't cause any alarms to go off while getting the ticket or boarding..?
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If I had to guess I'd say he flew into PDX.
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If I had to guess I'd say he flew into PDX.
less evidence in case something went wrong.....
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If I had to guess I'd say he flew into PDX.
less evidence in case something went wrong.....
I've considered that a bearded Sheridan could have flown into PDX and simply shaved. The reality is that by all accounts Cooper was unremarkable, therefore, could have operated essentially unnoticed.
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Pocket knives are normal and carried by a lot of people..I'm one of them..Cooper would of blended right in with the public..nothing would stick out of the norm with him to be noticed by people to recall him..security would never notice a man in a suit at the airport as unusual, I don't see what you are getting at..he didn't cause any alarms to go off while getting the ticket or boarding..?
My point is that every plane that flew into PDX that day as well as Cabs and Limo’s were alerted! You actually think that this exact guy flew into Portland on another flight that day wearing that exact suit and tie and carrying that briefcase and a bag and not a single person noticed the similarity ? Really ? Logic tells me he didn’t fly into PDX on another flight that day ! Also If he did fly in from out of town, where was his getaway vehicle ? In San Diego, San Francisco, in Las,Vegas, in Chicago ? How was he planning on escaping ? Let’s keep it simple as many of your cold cases showed actually happened ! His caper originated in Portland as far as we KNOW. it’s a very real Possibility his escape vehicle was also somewhere in Portland area. Tons of very discreet places to park your vehicle in Portland without anyone paying any attention to. In 1971 the area around Portland Air Base and Airport was VERY remote ! I know as I spent 6 years there in Oregon ANG.
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Kermit...no crime was committed while he was in the airport.. what alert?
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WW2 navigators used Celestial Navigation..
I don't know what tools it takes.. but were the stars visible at 10,000 ft that night?
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Kermit...no crime was committed while he was in the airport.. what alert
Of course I’m talking about the aftermath of this CRIME ! You certainly are aware that this investigation has been going on for many many years and his sketch and other details relating to Cooper has been shown to everyone even remotely involved including incoming flights, Cabs, nearby Hotels, Car rental companies, Limo Drivers, ..... need I go on ? D. B. Cooper was Huge In Portland back then. The Portland Airport was like a lockdown Zone ! If Cooper set foot in PDX or he parked his car there.... He was done .... stick a fork in him !
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I see what you mean now but we were talking about how Cooper got to the airport before the crime...
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Pocket knives are normal and carried by a lot of people..I'm one of them..Cooper would of blended right in with the public..nothing would stick out of the norm with him to be noticed by people to recall him..security would never notice a man in a suit at the airport as unusual, I don't see what you are getting at..he didn't cause any alarms to go off while getting the ticket or boarding..?
My point is that every plane that flew into PDX that day as well as Cabs and Limo’s were alerted! You actually think that this exact guy flew into Portland on another flight that day wearing that exact suit and tie and carrying that briefcase and a bag and not a single person noticed the similarity ? Really ? Logic tells me he didn’t fly into PDX on another flight that day ! Also If he did fly in from out of town, where was his getaway vehicle ? In San Diego, San Francisco, in Las,Vegas, in Chicago ? How was he planning on escaping ? Let’s keep it simple as many of your cold cases showed actually happened ! His caper originated in Portland as far as we KNOW. it’s a very real Possibility his escape vehicle was also somewhere in Portland area. Tons of very discreet places to park your vehicle in Portland without anyone paying any attention to. In 1971 the area around Portland Air Base and Airport was VERY remote ! I know as I spent 6 years there in Oregon ANG.
What I know with absolute certainty is that Cooper arrived at PDX somehow. Apparently this went unnoticed. All options are therefore still on the table.
Why did he need an escape vehicle?
Finally, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle and had already planned what his move from there was going to be. Likewise, if he had aborted the hijacking--for example if the back row of seats wasn't available--I think he would have deplaned in Seattle and utilized those same Seattle plans.
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we were talking about whether Cooper drove to PDX or flew...it would be risky to drive there , if something happened and he couldn't get back they might find his car before he got back...the best way in is flying and leaving no evidence to worry about..
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How did Danny get to the airport before the skyjacking?
My favorite fantasies are:
1. Flew in from Minneapolis after arriving there on 305 from Washington, DC, where he stashed some stuff in the overhead compartments. While 305 was puddle-jumping across Montana, Dan took a direct flight to PDX.
2. Arrived by Zodiak, as per Bill Rollins' scenario, parking his boat in the weeds and walking to the terminal.
3. Got a ride from his extraction team, who then later set up along the I-5 corridor for the rendezvous.
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Pocket knives are normal and carried by a lot of people..I'm one of them..Cooper would of blended right in with the public..nothing would stick out of the norm with him to be noticed by people to recall him..security would never notice a man in a suit at the airport as unusual, I don't see what you are getting at..he didn't cause any alarms to go off while getting the ticket or boarding..?
My point is that every plane that flew into PDX that day as well as Cabs and Limo’s were alerted! You actually think that this exact guy flew into Portland on another flight that day wearing that exact suit and tie and carrying that briefcase and a bag and not a single person noticed the similarity ? Really ? Logic tells me he didn’t fly into PDX on another flight that day ! Also If he did fly in from out of town, where was his getaway vehicle ? In San Diego, San Francisco, in Las,Vegas, in Chicago ? How was he planning on escaping ? Let’s keep it simple as many of your cold cases showed actually happened ! His caper originated in Portland as far as we KNOW. it’s a very real Possibility his escape vehicle was also somewhere in Portland area. Tons of very discreet places to park your vehicle in Portland without anyone paying any attention to. In 1971 the area around Portland Air Base and Airport was VERY remote ! I know as I spent 6 years there in Oregon ANG.
What I know with absolute certainty is that Cooper arrived at PDX somehow. Apparently this went unnoticed. All options are therefore still on the table.
Why did he need an escape vehicle?
Finally, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle and had already planned what his move from there was going to be. Likewise, if he had aborted the hijacking--for example if the back row of seats wasn't available--I think he would have deplaned in Seattle and utilized those same Seattle plans.
Yes I realize you and a lot of others BELIEVE he intended to jump in Seattle area ! However it’s just a belief and actually nobody knows where he planned to jump. I believe there are far more reasons to jump elsewhere. The Woodland, Battleground area is less populated and of course far closer to where his caper originated. Why did he need an escape vehicle ? Well that’s a no brainer unless he had an accomplice. I would think he didn’t go to all this work, planning and danger without having a plan for escaping !
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I see what you mean now but we were talking about how Cooper got to the airport before the crime...
Exactly and to use your own words, nobody had any reason to pay any attention to someone walking into PDX because no crime had been committed yet ! Do you know how to get to the airport in 1971 ? The 205 and the Glenn Jackson Bridge hadn’t been built yet. The entrance was N.E. 82 ave. Along the South side ran Cornfoot Road which ran along the Oregon ANG Base. The South side of Cornfoot road was the Columbia Slough which was a wetland with nothing there ! Like I mentioned, I spent 6 years in 142 Nd OREGON ANG so I’m very familiar with that area back in 1971.
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Yes I realize you and a lot of others BELIEVE he intended to jump in Seattle area ! However it’s just a belief and actually nobody knows where he planned to jump. I believe there are far more reasons to jump elsewhere. The Woodland, Battleground area is less populated and of course far closer to where his caper originated. Why did he need an escape vehicle ? Well that’s a no brainer unless he had an accomplice. I would think he didn’t go to all this work, planning and danger without having a plan for escaping !
The obvious question then becomes: How did Cooper know that they would fly over Woodland, Battleground or Portland?
How did Cooper know that the pilots didn't take a route along the coast--this was actually discussed--or a route that brought them over to the Tri-Cities area then down to Reno from there?
Moreover, what does Cooper do with his escape vehicle in Portland if he has to abort the hijacking? Does he turn right around and attempt to fly back to Portland that evening? If he can't get a flight back to Portland that evening what is he going to do in Seattle?
Furthermore, doesn't his choice of attire become questionable if he actually planned to jump over Woodland or Battleground?
Truth be told, Cooper didn't care what route they took to Reno because he was planning on jumping in the Seattle area. Additionally, he also wasn't concerned about where he was going to stay in Seattle if he had to abort, or his attire jumping in the outskirts of Seattle.
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The flight down to Portland was not an approach to PDX..even if he took a flight days before as a test it wouldn't be the same path they flew. that flight was not very old, only a couple months running..plenty of ways to get to PDX under the radar. it's all speculation since once again. we really don't know how he got there or where he came from be it local, east coast, Canada, Mexico, the north pole, who knows....
my wireless keyboard is killing me...it's missing whole words now... >:(
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Yes I realize you and a lot of others BELIEVE he intended to jump in Seattle area ! However it’s just a belief and actually nobody knows where he planned to jump. I believe there are far more reasons to jump elsewhere. The Woodland, Battleground area is less populated and of course far closer to where his caper originated. Why did he need an escape vehicle ? Well that’s a no brainer unless he had an accomplice. I would think he didn’t go to all this work, planning and danger without having a plan for escaping !
The obvious question then becomes: How did Cooper know that they would fly over Woodland, Battleground or Portland?
How did Cooper know that the pilots didn't take a route along the coast--this was actually discussed--or a route that brought them over to the Tri-Cities area then down to Reno from there?
Moreover, what does Cooper do with his escape vehicle in Portland if he has to abort the hijacking? Does he turn right around and attempt to fly back to Portland that evening? If he can't get a flight back to Portland that evening what is he going to do in Seattle?
Furthermore, doesn't his choice of attire become questionable if he actually planned to jump over Woodland or Battleground?
Truth be told, Cooper didn't care what route they took to Reno because he was planning on jumping in the Seattle area. Additionally, he also wasn't concerned about where he was going to stay in Seattle if he had to abort, or his attire jumping in the outskirts of Seattle.
Truth be told ? Really ? You know this to be the truth just exactly how ? You really have no idea nor do I what exactly Cooper was thinking or planning on doing ! As for what to do with his escape vehicle in Portland should he have to abort ? Seems to me that once he gives the ransom note to the Stew, he’s kinda locked into following through or else it’s over for him. If he aborts before he hands the note to Stew, he can do whatever he pleases as he’s committed no crime ! I’m not sure why his attire in Seattle area is far better for him there than in Woodland, Battleground area ? He’s jumping out of a plane with a parachute ! Landing in a populated area on the outskirts of Seattle is far more visible than landing in a remote area like Woodland or Battleground or Orchards !
How did he know he was in the general area around Battleground ? Ask the Pilots how they all saw the Lights of Vancouver and Portland approaching out of their Right window. They either made it up or the visibility was not as dismal as the FBI wanted us to believe it was. What IF they decided to fly over the Pacific ? Well that would have been very risky plan and why should we waste times pondering “ what If the pilot disobeyed Cooper’s order “ ?
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Truth be told ? Really ? You know this to be the truth just exactly how ? You really have no idea nor do I what exactly Cooper was thinking or planning on doing ! As for what to do with his escape vehicle in Portland should he have to abort ? Seems to me that once he gives the ransom note to the Stew, he’s kinda locked into following through or else it’s over for him. If he aborts before he hands the note to Stew, he can do whatever he pleases as he’s committed no crime ! I’m not sure why his attire in Seattle area is far better for him there than in Woodland, Battleground area ? He’s jumping out of a plane with a parachute ! Landing in a populated area on the outskirts of Seattle is far more visible than landing in a remote area like Woodland or Battleground or Orchards !
How did he know he was in the general area around Battleground ? Ask the Pilots how they all saw the Lights of Vancouver and Portland approaching out of their Right window. They either made it up or the visibility was not as dismal as the FBI wanted us to believe it was. What IF they decided to fly over the Pacific ? Well that would have been very risky plan and why should we waste times pondering “ what If the pilot disobeyed Cooper’s order “ ?
Actually I do have an idea of what Cooper was thinking because he said, didn't say, did and didn't do certain things. In light of what I previously stated, isn't it obvious he intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle?
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Pocket knives are normal and carried by a lot of people..I'm one of them..Cooper would of blended right in with the public..nothing would stick out of the norm with him to be noticed by people to recall him..security would never notice a man in a suit at the airport as unusual, I don't see what you are getting at..he didn't cause any alarms to go off while getting the ticket or boarding..?
My point is that every plane that flew into PDX that day as well as Cabs and Limo’s were alerted! You actually think that this exact guy flew into Portland on another flight that day wearing that exact suit and tie and carrying that briefcase and a bag and not a single person noticed the similarity ? Really ? Logic tells me he didn’t fly into PDX on another flight that day ! Also If he did fly in from out of town, where was his getaway vehicle ? In San Diego, San Francisco, in Las,Vegas, in Chicago ? How was he planning on escaping ? Let’s keep it simple as many of your cold cases showed actually happened ! His caper originated in Portland as far as we KNOW. it’s a very real Possibility his escape vehicle was also somewhere in Portland area. Tons of very discreet places to park your vehicle in Portland without anyone paying any attention to. In 1971 the area around Portland Air Base and Airport was VERY remote ! I know as I spent 6 years there in Oregon ANG.
What I know with absolute certainty is that Cooper arrived at PDX somehow. Apparently this went unnoticed. All options are therefore still on the table.
Why did he need an escape vehicle?
Finally, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle and had already planned what his move from there was going to be. Likewise, if he had aborted the hijacking--for example if the back row of seats wasn't available--I think he would have deplaned in Seattle and utilized those same Seattle plans.
Yes I realize you and a lot of others BELIEVE he intended to jump in Seattle area ! However it’s just a belief and actually nobody knows where he planned to jump. I believe there are far more reasons to jump elsewhere. The Woodland, Battleground area is less populated and of course far closer to where his caper originated. Why did he need an escape vehicle ? Well that’s a no brainer unless he had an accomplice. I would think he didn’t go to all this work, planning and danger without having a plan for escaping !
I don't believe he intended to jump in the US.. let alone the PNW. A PNW jump was plan B.
He wasn't dressed for a PNW jump.
His initial request was to land in Mexico for refuelling.
He gave no flight path instructions.
He DID NOT initially request the rear airstairs down. He asked for Tina to lower them in flight.
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How did Danny get to the airport before the skyjacking?
My favorite fantasies are:
1. Flew in from Minneapolis after arriving there on 305 from Washington, DC, where he stashed some stuff in the overhead compartments. While 305 was puddle-jumping across Montana, Dan took a direct flight to PDX.
2. Arrived by Zodiak, as per Bill Rollins' scenario, parking his boat in the weeds and walking to the terminal.
3. Got a ride from his extraction team, who then later set up along the I-5 corridor for the rendezvous.
Bruce,
You used the name Danny.. it reminded me of..
Tosaw used the name Daniel? why?
Did Cooper ever use anything other than Dan, as on the ticket? was the Dan written on the ticket short for Daniel?
I think FBI docs used Dan or Daniel but that may have been a just guess by them.. I'll have to find those again.
Starting at 4:40 in this audio interview - Tosaw said the hijacker gave the name Daniel Cooper to ticket agent.. if so, did the agent just abbreviate it to Dan.
Tosaw quote..
"We don't know his true name, although it very well might be, he could be Dan Cooper incidentally not DB, that was a mix up in the, later on occurred, but Daniel Cooper was the name he gave the ticket agent when he bought his ticket at the airport there in Portland Oregon at the International Airport and it was twenty dollars and they asked him, they said, here is your twenty dollars here is your ticket and so what is your name, he said Daniel Cooper so he got on the plane..."
https://www.stevenrinehart.com/uploads/DB2-48br.mp3
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Actually I do have an idea of what Cooper was thinking because he said, didn't say, did and didn't do certain things. In light of what I previously stated, isn't it obvious he intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle?
No, it's not obvious. Cooper's actions had the effect of keeping people guessing way into the future. Sometimes very confidently, yet still guessing.
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Truth be told ? Really ? You know this to be the truth just exactly how ? You really have no idea nor do I what exactly Cooper was thinking or planning on doing ! As for what to do with his escape vehicle in Portland should he have to abort ? Seems to me that once he gives the ransom note to the Stew, he’s kinda locked into following through or else it’s over for him. If he aborts before he hands the note to Stew, he can do whatever he pleases as he’s committed no crime ! I’m not sure why his attire in Seattle area is far better for him there than in Woodland, Battleground area ? He’s jumping out of a plane with a parachute ! Landing in a populated area on the outskirts of Seattle is far more visible than landing in a remote area like Woodland or Battleground or Orchards !
How did he know he was in the general area around Battleground ? Ask the Pilots how they all saw the Lights of Vancouver and Portland approaching out of their Right window. They either made it up or the visibility was not as dismal as the FBI wanted us to believe it was. What IF they decided to fly over the Pacific ? Well that would have been very risky plan and why should we waste times pondering “ what If the pilot disobeyed Cooper’s order “ ?
Actually I do have an idea of what Cooper was thinking because he said, didn't say, did and didn't do certain things. In light of what I previously stated, isn't it obvious he intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle?
Actually there is no possible way you or I could actually know what Cooper was thinking for sure ! It isn’t obvious to me I can assure you.
One other thing that doesn’t make sense to me regarding your theory of what SP did.
I was 8 years old when the mighty Columbia river broke through the railroad Dike and gobbled up the entire City of Vanport, Oregon. During the War, Vanport had become the second largest City in Oregon. This happened in 1948 and I recall seeing the Columbia wipe out homes, cars and everything in its Path. Sheridan would have been in his 20’s then so I would assume he was aware of the power and destruction of one of America’s biggest rivers.
So fast forward to 1971 and SP has the equivalent of $ 1.2 Million dollars. So why would an intelligent person bury ALL of his loot in the Sandy banks of the flood prone banks of the Columbia river which is a common hangout for Salmon and Steelhead Fisherman ? There are plenty of Woods around but he buries his loot in the river bank ? Also where did he bury the Parachute, briefcase and bag. None of these items were found ! I’m not saying your theory is impossible but please excuse me if I’m not sold on it.
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Pocket knives are normal and carried by a lot of people..I'm one of them..Cooper would of blended right in with the public..nothing would stick out of the norm with him to be noticed by people to recall him..security would never notice a man in a suit at the airport as unusual, I don't see what you are getting at..he didn't cause any alarms to go off while getting the ticket or boarding..?
My point is that every plane that flew into PDX that day as well as Cabs and Limo’s were alerted! You actually think that this exact guy flew into Portland on another flight that day wearing that exact suit and tie and carrying that briefcase and a bag and not a single person noticed the similarity ? Really ? Logic tells me he didn’t fly into PDX on another flight that day ! Also If he did fly in from out of town, where was his getaway vehicle ? In San Diego, San Francisco, in Las,Vegas, in Chicago ? How was he planning on escaping ? Let’s keep it simple as many of your cold cases showed actually happened ! His caper originated in Portland as far as we KNOW. it’s a very real Possibility his escape vehicle was also somewhere in Portland area. Tons of very discreet places to park your vehicle in Portland without anyone paying any attention to. In 1971 the area around Portland Air Base and Airport was VERY remote ! I know as I spent 6 years there in Oregon ANG.
What I know with absolute certainty is that Cooper arrived at PDX somehow. Apparently this went unnoticed. All options are therefore still on the table.
Why did he need an escape vehicle?
Finally, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle and had already planned what his move from there was going to be. Likewise, if he had aborted the hijacking--for example if the back row of seats wasn't available--I think he would have deplaned in Seattle and utilized those same Seattle plans.
Yes I realize you and a lot of others BELIEVE he intended to jump in Seattle area ! However it’s just a belief and actually nobody knows where he planned to jump. I believe there are far more reasons to jump elsewhere. The Woodland, Battleground area is less populated and of course far closer to where his caper originated. Why did he need an escape vehicle ? Well that’s a no brainer unless he had an accomplice. I would think he didn’t go to all this work, planning and danger without having a plan for escaping !
I don't believe he intended to jump in the US.. let alone the PNW. A PNW jump was plan B.
He wasn't dressed for a PNW jump.
His initial request was to land in Mexico for refuelling.
He gave no flight path instructions.
He DID NOT initially request the rear airstairs down. He asked for Tina to lower them in flight.
Of course he requested the airstairs down upon takeoff.
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Truth be told ? Really ? You know this to be the truth just exactly how ? You really have no idea nor do I what exactly Cooper was thinking or planning on doing ! As for what to do with his escape vehicle in Portland should he have to abort ? Seems to me that once he gives the ransom note to the Stew, he’s kinda locked into following through or else it’s over for him. If he aborts before he hands the note to Stew, he can do whatever he pleases as he’s committed no crime ! I’m not sure why his attire in Seattle area is far better for him there than in Woodland, Battleground area ? He’s jumping out of a plane with a parachute ! Landing in a populated area on the outskirts of Seattle is far more visible than landing in a remote area like Woodland or Battleground or Orchards !
How did he know he was in the general area around Battleground ? Ask the Pilots how they all saw the Lights of Vancouver and Portland approaching out of their Right window. They either made it up or the visibility was not as dismal as the FBI wanted us to believe it was. What IF they decided to fly over the Pacific ? Well that would have been very risky plan and why should we waste times pondering “ what If the pilot disobeyed Cooper’s order “ ?
Actually I do have an idea of what Cooper was thinking because he said, didn't say, did and didn't do certain things. In light of what I previously stated, isn't it obvious he intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle?
Actually there is no possible way you or I could actually know what Cooper was thinking for sure ! It isn’t obvious to me I can assure you.
One other thing that doesn’t make sense to me regarding your theory of what SP did.
I was 8 years old when the mighty Columbia river broke through the railroad Dike and gobbled up the entire City of Vanport, Oregon. During the War, Vanport had become the second largest City in Oregon. This happened in 1948 and I recall seeing the Columbia wipe out homes, cars and everything in its Path. Sheridan would have been in his 20’s then so I would assume he was aware of the power and destruction of one of America’s biggest rivers.
So fast forward to 1971 and SP has the equivalent of $ 1.2 Million dollars. So why would an intelligent person bury ALL of his loot in the Sandy banks of the flood prone banks of the Columbia river which is a common hangout for Salmon and Steelhead Fisherman ? There are plenty of Woods around but he buries his loot in the river bank ? Also where did he bury the Parachute, briefcase and bag. None of these items were found ! I’m not saying your theory is impossible but please excuse me if I’m not sold on it.
He buried everything on Tena Bar because this is near where he landed. Also, digging in sand is a much easier proposition than earth. Furthermore, freshly disturbed sand is a lot easier to obscure than freshly disturbed earth.
Unless he's worried about the 100-year-flood coming along on November 25, 1971 exactly, or perhaps sometime during that week, I'm sure he wasn't too concerned about the money being swept away.
He later retrieved everything, that is why nothing has been found.
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Pocket knives are normal and carried by a lot of people..I'm one of them..Cooper would of blended right in with the public..nothing would stick out of the norm with him to be noticed by people to recall him..security would never notice a man in a suit at the airport as unusual, I don't see what you are getting at..he didn't cause any alarms to go off while getting the ticket or boarding..?
My point is that every plane that flew into PDX that day as well as Cabs and Limo’s were alerted! You actually think that this exact guy flew into Portland on another flight that day wearing that exact suit and tie and carrying that briefcase and a bag and not a single person noticed the similarity ? Really ? Logic tells me he didn’t fly into PDX on another flight that day ! Also If he did fly in from out of town, where was his getaway vehicle ? In San Diego, San Francisco, in Las,Vegas, in Chicago ? How was he planning on escaping ? Let’s keep it simple as many of your cold cases showed actually happened ! His caper originated in Portland as far as we KNOW. it’s a very real Possibility his escape vehicle was also somewhere in Portland area. Tons of very discreet places to park your vehicle in Portland without anyone paying any attention to. In 1971 the area around Portland Air Base and Airport was VERY remote ! I know as I spent 6 years there in Oregon ANG.
What I know with absolute certainty is that Cooper arrived at PDX somehow. Apparently this went unnoticed. All options are therefore still on the table.
Why did he need an escape vehicle?
Finally, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle and had already planned what his move from there was going to be. Likewise, if he had aborted the hijacking--for example if the back row of seats wasn't available--I think he would have deplaned in Seattle and utilized those same Seattle plans.
Yes I realize you and a lot of others BELIEVE he intended to jump in Seattle area ! However it’s just a belief and actually nobody knows where he planned to jump. I believe there are far more reasons to jump elsewhere. The Woodland, Battleground area is less populated and of course far closer to where his caper originated. Why did he need an escape vehicle ? Well that’s a no brainer unless he had an accomplice. I would think he didn’t go to all this work, planning and danger without having a plan for escaping !
I don't believe he intended to jump in the US.. let alone the PNW. A PNW jump was plan B.
He wasn't dressed for a PNW jump.
His initial request was to land in Mexico for refuelling.
He gave no flight path instructions.
He DID NOT initially request the rear airstairs down. He asked for Tina to lower them in flight.
Of course he requested the airstairs down upon takeoff.
NOPE, not initially. He initially wanted/requested Tina to lower the Airstairs..
There was a discussion later between the pilots and Cooper regarding the airstairs down on takeoff but no evidence that Cooper initiated it vs the crew trying to get Tina off the plane. It looks like the Airstairs down on take off was a LATER discussion to get Tina off the plane.
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Truth be told ? Really ? You know this to be the truth just exactly how ? You really have no idea nor do I what exactly Cooper was thinking or planning on doing ! As for what to do with his escape vehicle in Portland should he have to abort ? Seems to me that once he gives the ransom note to the Stew, he’s kinda locked into following through or else it’s over for him. If he aborts before he hands the note to Stew, he can do whatever he pleases as he’s committed no crime ! I’m not sure why his attire in Seattle area is far better for him there than in Woodland, Battleground area ? He’s jumping out of a plane with a parachute ! Landing in a populated area on the outskirts of Seattle is far more visible than landing in a remote area like Woodland or Battleground or Orchards !
How did he know he was in the general area around Battleground ? Ask the Pilots how they all saw the Lights of Vancouver and Portland approaching out of their Right window. They either made it up or the visibility was not as dismal as the FBI wanted us to believe it was. What IF they decided to fly over the Pacific ? Well that would have been very risky plan and why should we waste times pondering “ what If the pilot disobeyed Cooper’s order “ ?
Actually I do have an idea of what Cooper was thinking because he said, didn't say, did and didn't do certain things. In light of what I previously stated, isn't it obvious he intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle?
Actually there is no possible way you or I could actually know what Cooper was thinking for sure ! It isn’t obvious to me I can assure you.
One other thing that doesn’t make sense to me regarding your theory of what SP did.
I was 8 years old when the mighty Columbia river broke through the railroad Dike and gobbled up the entire City of Vanport, Oregon. During the War, Vanport had become the second largest City in Oregon. This happened in 1948 and I recall seeing the Columbia wipe out homes, cars and everything in its Path. Sheridan would have been in his 20’s then so I would assume he was aware of the power and destruction of one of America’s biggest rivers.
So fast forward to 1971 and SP has the equivalent of $ 1.2 Million dollars. So why would an intelligent person bury ALL of his loot in the Sandy banks of the flood prone banks of the Columbia river which is a common hangout for Salmon and Steelhead Fisherman ? There are plenty of Woods around but he buries his loot in the river bank ? Also where did he bury the Parachute, briefcase and bag. None of these items were found ! I’m not saying your theory is impossible but please excuse me if I’m not sold on it.
He buried everything on Tena Bar because this is near where he landed. Also, digging in sand is a much easier proposition than earth. Furthermore, freshly disturbed sand is a lot easier to obscure than freshly disturbed earth.
Unless he's worried about the 100-year-flood coming along on November 25, 1971 exactly, or perhaps sometime during that week, I'm sure he wasn't too concerned about the money being swept away.
He later retrieved everything, that is why nothing has been found.
Allegedly of course !
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Pocket knives are normal and carried by a lot of people..I'm one of them..Cooper would of blended right in with the public..nothing would stick out of the norm with him to be noticed by people to recall him..security would never notice a man in a suit at the airport as unusual, I don't see what you are getting at..he didn't cause any alarms to go off while getting the ticket or boarding..?
My point is that every plane that flew into PDX that day as well as Cabs and Limo’s were alerted! You actually think that this exact guy flew into Portland on another flight that day wearing that exact suit and tie and carrying that briefcase and a bag and not a single person noticed the similarity ? Really ? Logic tells me he didn’t fly into PDX on another flight that day ! Also If he did fly in from out of town, where was his getaway vehicle ? In San Diego, San Francisco, in Las,Vegas, in Chicago ? How was he planning on escaping ? Let’s keep it simple as many of your cold cases showed actually happened ! His caper originated in Portland as far as we KNOW. it’s a very real Possibility his escape vehicle was also somewhere in Portland area. Tons of very discreet places to park your vehicle in Portland without anyone paying any attention to. In 1971 the area around Portland Air Base and Airport was VERY remote ! I know as I spent 6 years there in Oregon ANG.
What I know with absolute certainty is that Cooper arrived at PDX somehow. Apparently this went unnoticed. All options are therefore still on the table.
Why did he need an escape vehicle?
Finally, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle and had already planned what his move from there was going to be. Likewise, if he had aborted the hijacking--for example if the back row of seats wasn't available--I think he would have deplaned in Seattle and utilized those same Seattle plans.
Yes I realize you and a lot of others BELIEVE he intended to jump in Seattle area ! However it’s just a belief and actually nobody knows where he planned to jump. I believe there are far more reasons to jump elsewhere. The Woodland, Battleground area is less populated and of course far closer to where his caper originated. Why did he need an escape vehicle ? Well that’s a no brainer unless he had an accomplice. I would think he didn’t go to all this work, planning and danger without having a plan for escaping !
I don't believe he intended to jump in the US.. let alone the PNW. A PNW jump was plan B.
He wasn't dressed for a PNW jump.
His initial request was to land in Mexico for refuelling.
He gave no flight path instructions.
He DID NOT initially request the rear airstairs down. He asked for Tina to lower them in flight.
Of course he requested the airstairs down upon takeoff.
NOPE, not initially. He initially wanted Tina to lower the Airstairs..
There was a discussion later between the pilots and Cooper regarding the airstairs down on takeoff but no evidence that Cooper initiated it vs the crew trying to get Tina off the plane.
Cooper told Tina that all of the stewardesses would be able to leave the jet once his demands were met.
Cooper stated he wanted the airstairs deployed during take-off.
The pilots said the jet could not take-off with the airstairs deployed.
Cooper said, "yes they can, but they can lower them once airborne" or words to that effect.
It was because Cooper needed Tina to show him how to deploy the airstairs that she could not deplane in Seattle with Florence and Alice.
Once they took off from Seattle and Tina showed Cooper how to lower the stairs she was sent up front and was no longer needed.
Cooper lowered the stairs several minutes after take-off.
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Truth be told ? Really ? You know this to be the truth just exactly how ? You really have no idea nor do I what exactly Cooper was thinking or planning on doing ! As for what to do with his escape vehicle in Portland should he have to abort ? Seems to me that once he gives the ransom note to the Stew, he’s kinda locked into following through or else it’s over for him. If he aborts before he hands the note to Stew, he can do whatever he pleases as he’s committed no crime ! I’m not sure why his attire in Seattle area is far better for him there than in Woodland, Battleground area ? He’s jumping out of a plane with a parachute ! Landing in a populated area on the outskirts of Seattle is far more visible than landing in a remote area like Woodland or Battleground or Orchards !
How did he know he was in the general area around Battleground ? Ask the Pilots how they all saw the Lights of Vancouver and Portland approaching out of their Right window. They either made it up or the visibility was not as dismal as the FBI wanted us to believe it was. What IF they decided to fly over the Pacific ? Well that would have been very risky plan and why should we waste times pondering “ what If the pilot disobeyed Cooper’s order “ ?
Actually I do have an idea of what Cooper was thinking because he said, didn't say, did and didn't do certain things. In light of what I previously stated, isn't it obvious he intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle?
Actually there is no possible way you or I could actually know what Cooper was thinking for sure ! It isn’t obvious to me I can assure you.
One other thing that doesn’t make sense to me regarding your theory of what SP did.
I was 8 years old when the mighty Columbia river broke through the railroad Dike and gobbled up the entire City of Vanport, Oregon. During the War, Vanport had become the second largest City in Oregon. This happened in 1948 and I recall seeing the Columbia wipe out homes, cars and everything in its Path. Sheridan would have been in his 20’s then so I would assume he was aware of the power and destruction of one of America’s biggest rivers.
So fast forward to 1971 and SP has the equivalent of $ 1.2 Million dollars. So why would an intelligent person bury ALL of his loot in the Sandy banks of the flood prone banks of the Columbia river which is a common hangout for Salmon and Steelhead Fisherman ? There are plenty of Woods around but he buries his loot in the river bank ? Also where did he bury the Parachute, briefcase and bag. None of these items were found ! I’m not saying your theory is impossible but please excuse me if I’m not sold on it.
He buried everything on Tena Bar because this is near where he landed. Also, digging in sand is a much easier proposition than earth. Furthermore, freshly disturbed sand is a lot easier to obscure than freshly disturbed earth.
Unless he's worried about the 100-year-flood coming along on November 25, 1971 exactly, or perhaps sometime during that week, I'm sure he wasn't too concerned about the money being swept away.
He later retrieved everything, that is why nothing has been found.
Allegedly of course !
Yes, this is my theory. Sheridan has not said this is what happened.
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Pocket knives are normal and carried by a lot of people..I'm one of them..Cooper would of blended right in with the public..nothing would stick out of the norm with him to be noticed by people to recall him..security would never notice a man in a suit at the airport as unusual, I don't see what you are getting at..he didn't cause any alarms to go off while getting the ticket or boarding..?
My point is that every plane that flew into PDX that day as well as Cabs and Limo’s were alerted! You actually think that this exact guy flew into Portland on another flight that day wearing that exact suit and tie and carrying that briefcase and a bag and not a single person noticed the similarity ? Really ? Logic tells me he didn’t fly into PDX on another flight that day ! Also If he did fly in from out of town, where was his getaway vehicle ? In San Diego, San Francisco, in Las,Vegas, in Chicago ? How was he planning on escaping ? Let’s keep it simple as many of your cold cases showed actually happened ! His caper originated in Portland as far as we KNOW. it’s a very real Possibility his escape vehicle was also somewhere in Portland area. Tons of very discreet places to park your vehicle in Portland without anyone paying any attention to. In 1971 the area around Portland Air Base and Airport was VERY remote ! I know as I spent 6 years there in Oregon ANG.
What I know with absolute certainty is that Cooper arrived at PDX somehow. Apparently this went unnoticed. All options are therefore still on the table.
Why did he need an escape vehicle?
Finally, I believe Cooper originally intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle and had already planned what his move from there was going to be. Likewise, if he had aborted the hijacking--for example if the back row of seats wasn't available--I think he would have deplaned in Seattle and utilized those same Seattle plans.
Yes I realize you and a lot of others BELIEVE he intended to jump in Seattle area ! However it’s just a belief and actually nobody knows where he planned to jump. I believe there are far more reasons to jump elsewhere. The Woodland, Battleground area is less populated and of course far closer to where his caper originated. Why did he need an escape vehicle ? Well that’s a no brainer unless he had an accomplice. I would think he didn’t go to all this work, planning and danger without having a plan for escaping !
I don't believe he intended to jump in the US.. let alone the PNW. A PNW jump was plan B.
He wasn't dressed for a PNW jump.
His initial request was to land in Mexico for refuelling.
He gave no flight path instructions.
He DID NOT initially request the rear airstairs down. He asked for Tina to lower them in flight.
Of course he requested the airstairs down upon takeoff.
NOPE, not initially. He initially wanted Tina to lower the Airstairs..
There was a discussion later between the pilots and Cooper regarding the airstairs down on takeoff but no evidence that Cooper initiated it vs the crew trying to get Tina off the plane.
Cooper told Tina that all of the stewardesses would be able to leave the jet once his demands were met.
Cooper stated he wanted the airstairs deployed during take-off.
The pilots said the jet could not take-off with the airstairs deployed.
Cooper said, "yes they can, but they can lower them once airborne" or words to that effect.
It was because Cooper needed Tina to show him how to deploy the airstairs that she could not deplane in Seattle with Florence and Alice.
Once they took off from Seattle and Tina showed Cooper how to lower the stairs she was sent up front and was no longer needed.
Cooper lowered the stairs several minutes after take-off.
That is an overgeneralization.. Cooper originally asked for airstairs lowered in flight. LATER discussed lowered on take off. I believe it was to allow Tina off the plane but we don't know if Cooper or the Pilots initiated idea.
read the attachments in post #3104 and #3105
http://www.thedbcooperforum.com/db-cooper/clues-documents-and-evidence-about-the-case/3090/
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I really dislike getting into the weeds on this stuff.
The point is Cooper wanted the stairs down upon take-off and relented but indicated that he knew that the jet could indeed take-off with the airstairs deployed. However, he was okay with keeping the airstairs up as long as they were deployed immediately after take-off. Sure it's possible he initially wanted to deploy the airstairs immediately after take-off but it doesn't matter. You're missing the forest through the trees.
Everything indicates Cooper desired to jump shortly after taking off from Seattle. This implies that he planned on being in Seattle during the immediate aftermath. This also dovetails nicely into considerations about his plans if he had to abort the hijacking--specifically, he would have had to deplane in Seattle given it was a one-way ticket. Nonetheless, either course of action has Cooper in Seattle presumably with a plan.
I do not believe Cooper originally planned to jump near Portland. After all, he could not know he was ever going to be near Portland. This is a major problem that has to be explained if one thinks Cooper planned to jump near Portland. Unless, of course, he just rolled the dice and got lucky.
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I really dislike getting into the weeds on this stuff.
The point is Cooper wanted the stairs down upon take-off and relented but indicated that he knew that the jet could indeed take-off with the airstairs deployed. However, he was okay with keeping the airstairs up as long as they were deployed immediately after take-off. Sure it's possible he initially wanted to deploy the airstairs immediately after take-off but it doesn't matter. You're missing the forest through the trees.
Everything indicates Cooper desired to jump shortly after taking off from Seattle. This implies that he planned on being in Seattle during the immediate aftermath. This also dovetails nicely into considerations about his plans if he had to abort the hijacking--specifically, he would have had to deplane in Seattle given it was a one-way ticket. Nonetheless, either course of action has Cooper in Seattle presumably with a plan.
I do not believe Cooper originally planned to jump near Portland. After all, he could not know he was ever going to be near Portland. This is a major problem that has to be explained if one thinks Cooper planned to jump near Portland. Unless, of course, he just rolled the dice and got lucky.
The weeds are the details.. and details are important. It does matter. Cooper initially wanted the Airstairs lowered in flight by Tina and the later Airstairs down on take off discussion was to allow Tina off the plane that doesn't support an intentional immediate jump.
Most of this case and theories are built on assumptions, very few concrete facts.
Those assumptions need to be challenged.
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I really dislike getting into the weeds on this stuff.
The point is Cooper wanted the stairs down upon take-off and relented but indicated that he knew that the jet could indeed take-off with the airstairs deployed. However, he was okay with keeping the airstairs up as long as they were deployed immediately after take-off. Sure it's possible he initially wanted to deploy the airstairs immediately after take-off but it doesn't matter. You're missing the forest through the trees.
Everything indicates Cooper desired to jump shortly after taking off from Seattle. This implies that he planned on being in Seattle during the immediate aftermath. This also dovetails nicely into considerations about his plans if he had to abort the hijacking--specifically, he would have had to deplane in Seattle given it was a one-way ticket. Nonetheless, either course of action has Cooper in Seattle presumably with a plan.
I do not believe Cooper originally planned to jump near Portland. After all, he could not know he was ever going to be near Portland. This is a major problem that has to be explained if one thinks Cooper planned to jump near Portland. Unless, of course, he just rolled the dice and got lucky.
The weeds are the details.. and details are important. It does matter. Cooper initially wanted the Airstairs lowered in flight by Tina and the later Airstairs down on take off discussion was to allow Tina off the plane that doesn't support an intentional immediate jump.
Most of this case and theories are built on assumptions, very few concrete facts.
Those assumptions need to be challenged.
You're free to read it that way. We're just simply going to have to disagree about that. I think Seattle, you think Willamette Valley or Mexico. Fair enough.
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I really dislike getting into the weeds on this stuff.
The point is Cooper wanted the stairs down upon take-off and relented but indicated that he knew that the jet could indeed take-off with the airstairs deployed. However, he was okay with keeping the airstairs up as long as they were deployed immediately after take-off. Sure it's possible he initially wanted to deploy the airstairs immediately after take-off but it doesn't matter. You're missing the forest through the trees.
Everything indicates Cooper desired to jump shortly after taking off from Seattle. This implies that he planned on being in Seattle during the immediate aftermath. This also dovetails nicely into considerations about his plans if he had to abort the hijacking--specifically, he would have had to deplane in Seattle given it was a one-way ticket. Nonetheless, either course of action has Cooper in Seattle presumably with a plan.
I do not believe Cooper originally planned to jump near Portland. After all, he could not know he was ever going to be near Portland. This is a major problem that has to be explained if one thinks Cooper planned to jump near Portland. Unless, of course, he just rolled the dice and got lucky.
The weeds are the details.. and details are important. It does matter. Cooper initially wanted the Airstairs lowered in flight by Tina and the later Airstairs down on take off discussion was to allow Tina off the plane that doesn't support an intentional immediate jump.
Most of this case and theories are built on assumptions, very few concrete facts.
Those assumptions need to be challenged.
You're free to read it that way. We're just simply going to have to disagree about that. I think Seattle, you think Willamette Valley or Mexico. Fair enough.
I assumed the same as you and most everyone, until I carefully read through the FBI docs..
Now, I believe that Cooper initially wanted to jump South of US border. His initial demand was NOT airstairs down as everyone assumed.
He had to change his plan when Reno was in play and most likely jumped near the FBI LZ, but I am also looking at the possibility of the Willamette Valley.
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I really dislike getting into the weeds on this stuff.
The point is Cooper wanted the stairs down upon take-off and relented but indicated that he knew that the jet could indeed take-off with the airstairs deployed. However, he was okay with keeping the airstairs up as long as they were deployed immediately after take-off. Sure it's possible he initially wanted to deploy the airstairs immediately after take-off but it doesn't matter. You're missing the forest through the trees.
Everything indicates Cooper desired to jump shortly after taking off from Seattle. This implies that he planned on being in Seattle during the immediate aftermath. This also dovetails nicely into considerations about his plans if he had to abort the hijacking--specifically, he would have had to deplane in Seattle given it was a one-way ticket. Nonetheless, either course of action has Cooper in Seattle presumably with a plan.
I do not believe Cooper originally planned to jump near Portland. After all, he could not know he was ever going to be near Portland. This is a major problem that has to be explained if one thinks Cooper planned to jump near Portland. Unless, of course, he just rolled the dice and got lucky.
The weeds are the details.. and details are important. It does matter. Cooper initially wanted the Airstairs lowered in flight by Tina and the later Airstairs down on take off discussion was to allow Tina off the plane that doesn't support an intentional immediate jump.
Most of this case and theories are built on assumptions, very few concrete facts.
Those assumptions need to be challenged.
You're free to read it that way. We're just simply going to have to disagree about that. I think Seattle, you think Willamette Valley or Mexico. Fair enough.
I assumed the same as you and most everyone, until I carefully read through the FBI docs..
Now, I believe that Cooper initially wanted to jump South of US border. His initial demand was NOT airstairs down as everyone assumed.
He had to change his plan when Reno was in play and most likely jumped near the FBI LZ, but I am also looking at the possibility of the Willamette Valley.
The other problem is that reading the transcripts literally can be misleading. For example, Cooper notifying the flight crew that he wants the airstairs opened after take-off may mean nothing more than he wants the stairs to remain open after take-off not that he actually wants them opened (the verb) after take-off.
Also, the transcript implies that the pilots suggested that the airstairs be partially opened. This makes no-sense, after all, the pilots know the airstairs are gravity operated and cannot be locked half open. It also makes no sense because other documents say that Cooper requested the airstairs be locked in a half open state.
Subsequent interpretations of the transcripts, which themselves are translated, are also prone to have problems. Again, literally interpreting statements is often misleading.
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Truth be told ? Really ? You know this to be the truth just exactly how ? You really have no idea nor do I what exactly Cooper was thinking or planning on doing ! As for what to do with his escape vehicle in Portland should he have to abort ? Seems to me that once he gives the ransom note to the Stew, he’s kinda locked into following through or else it’s over for him. If he aborts before he hands the note to Stew, he can do whatever he pleases as he’s committed no crime ! I’m not sure why his attire in Seattle area is far better for him there than in Woodland, Battleground area ? He’s jumping out of a plane with a parachute ! Landing in a populated area on the outskirts of Seattle is far more visible than landing in a remote area like Woodland or Battleground or Orchards !
How did he know he was in the general area around Battleground ? Ask the Pilots how they all saw the Lights of Vancouver and Portland approaching out of their Right window. They either made it up or the visibility was not as dismal as the FBI wanted us to believe it was. What IF they decided to fly over the Pacific ? Well that would have been very risky plan and why should we waste times pondering “ what If the pilot disobeyed Cooper’s order “ ?
Actually I do have an idea of what Cooper was thinking because he said, didn't say, did and didn't do certain things. In light of what I previously stated, isn't it obvious he intended to jump in the outskirts of Seattle?
Actually there is no possible way you or I could actually know what Cooper was thinking for sure ! It isn’t obvious to me I can assure you.
One other thing that doesn’t make sense to me regarding your theory of what SP did.
I was 8 years old when the mighty Columbia river broke through the railroad Dike and gobbled up the entire City of Vanport, Oregon. During the War, Vanport had become the second largest City in Oregon. This happened in 1948 and I recall seeing the Columbia wipe out homes, cars and everything in its Path. Sheridan would have been in his 20’s then so I would assume he was aware of the power and destruction of one of America’s biggest rivers.
So fast forward to 1971 and SP has the equivalent of $ 1.2 Million dollars. So why would an intelligent person bury ALL of his loot in the Sandy banks of the flood prone banks of the Columbia river which is a common hangout for Salmon and Steelhead Fisherman ? There are plenty of Woods around but he buries his loot in the river bank ? Also where did he bury the Parachute, briefcase and bag. None of these items were found ! I’m not saying your theory is impossible but please excuse me if I’m not sold on it.
He buried everything on Tena Bar because this is near where he landed. Also, digging in sand is a much easier proposition than earth. Furthermore, freshly disturbed sand is a lot easier to obscure than freshly disturbed earth.
Unless he's worried about the 100-year-flood coming along on November 25, 1971 exactly, or perhaps sometime during that week, I'm sure he wasn't too concerned about the money being swept away.
He later retrieved everything, that is why nothing has been found.
Allegedly of course !
Yes, this is my theory. Sheridan has not said this is what happened.
So what you are saying is that SP buried his loot in the sand at Tina Bar on Nov 24, 1971 and came back the next day or within a week and dug it up but ACCIDENTLY dropped 3 bundles. The ONLY explanation as to why SP would do something so risky and dangerous is because your theory says that’s what he did. Other than your theory, is there anything to refute that it might have been there a year, 2 years or ? Years ? I just can’t accept a theory as PROOF that SP burrying the equivalent of $1.2 Million on a public beach frequented by Fisherman and a very unpredictable river is certainly questionable!
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So what you are saying is that SP buried his loot in the sand at Tina Bar on Nov 24, 1971 and came back the next day or within a week and dug it up but ACCIDENTLY dropped 3 bundles. The ONLY explanation as to why SP would do something so risky and dangerous is because your theory says that’s what he did. Other than your theory, is there anything to refute that it might have been there a year, 2 years or ? Years ? I just can’t accept a theory as PROOF that SP burrying the equivalent of $1.2 Million on a public beach frequented by Fisherman and a very unpredictable river is certainly questionable!
Yes, that is precisely what I'm saying. I am also saying that the roughly 6K found on Tena Bar had been buried on the beach since November 24, 1971.
My theory is as such:
1) Cooper initially planned to jump near Seattle but missed his opportunity when the cash arrived in an open-top bank bag and the airstairs initially wouldn't deploy.
2) Cooper eventually jumped as the jet entered metro Portland/Vancouver near Tena Bar.
3) Upon landing on or near Tena Bar Cooper buried everything thereby giving him time to get out of the area.
4) Cooper later returned under cover of darkness, most likely within several days, to retrieve everything he buried.
5) During the retrieval process of the money bag--again which is open on top--he lifted the money bag, which was probably laid sideways in the hole, and a few packets of cash fell out and stayed behind in the hole.
6) Eights years later, after significant beach erosion, the once buried packets are unearthed but obviously in a decayed state after eight years.
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I really dislike getting into the weeds on this stuff.
The point is Cooper wanted the stairs down upon take-off and relented but indicated that he knew that the jet could indeed take-off with the airstairs deployed. However, he was okay with keeping the airstairs up as long as they were deployed immediately after take-off. Sure it's possible he initially wanted to deploy the airstairs immediately after take-off but it doesn't matter. You're missing the forest through the trees.
Everything indicates Cooper desired to jump shortly after taking off from Seattle. This implies that he planned on being in Seattle during the immediate aftermath. This also dovetails nicely into considerations about his plans if he had to abort the hijacking--specifically, he would have had to deplane in Seattle given it was a one-way ticket. Nonetheless, either course of action has Cooper in Seattle presumably with a plan.
I do not believe Cooper originally planned to jump near Portland. After all, he could not know he was ever going to be near Portland. This is a major problem that has to be explained if one thinks Cooper planned to jump near Portland. Unless, of course, he just rolled the dice and got lucky.
The weeds are the details.. and details are important. It does matter. Cooper initially wanted the Airstairs lowered in flight by Tina and the later Airstairs down on take off discussion was to allow Tina off the plane that doesn't support an intentional immediate jump.
Most of this case and theories are built on assumptions, very few concrete facts.
Those assumptions need to be challenged.
You're free to read it that way. We're just simply going to have to disagree about that. I think Seattle, you think Willamette Valley or Mexico. Fair enough.
I assumed the same as you and most everyone, until I carefully read through the FBI docs..
Now, I believe that Cooper initially wanted to jump South of US border. His initial demand was NOT airstairs down as everyone assumed.
He had to change his plan when Reno was in play and most likely jumped near the FBI LZ, but I am also looking at the possibility of the Willamette Valley.
The other problem is that reading the transcripts literally can be misleading. For example, Cooper notifying the flight crew that he wants the airstairs opened after take-off may mean nothing more than he wants the stairs to remain open after take-off not that he actually wants them opened (the verb) after take-off.
Also, the transcript implies that the pilots suggested that the airstairs be partially opened. This makes no-sense, after all, the pilots know the airstairs are gravity operated and cannot be locked half open. It also makes no sense because other documents say that Cooper requested the airstairs be locked in a half open state.
Subsequent interpretations of the transcripts, which themselves are translated, are also prone to have problems. Again, literally interpreting statements is often misleading.
It does make sense, the pilots wanted to get Tina off the plane, take off with stairs partially open would achieve that.
The 302's are agent summaries which are less reliable than the pilot transcripts.
Read that pilot transcript.. carefully,, it is the most accurate for order of events
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So what you are saying is that SP buried his loot in the sand at Tina Bar on Nov 24, 1971 and came back the next day or within a week and dug it up but ACCIDENTLY dropped 3 bundles. The ONLY explanation as to why SP would do something so risky and dangerous is because your theory says that’s what he did. Other than your theory, is there anything to refute that it might have been there a year, 2 years or ? Years ? I just can’t accept a theory as PROOF that SP burrying the equivalent of $1.2 Million on a public beach frequented by Fisherman and a very unpredictable river is certainly questionable!
Yes, that is precisely what I'm saying. I am also saying that the roughly 6K found on Tena Bar had been buried on the beach since November 24, 1971.
My theory is as such:
1) Cooper initially planned to jump near Seattle but missed his opportunity when the cash arrived in an open-top bank bag and the airstairs initially wouldn't deploy.
2) Cooper eventually jumped as the jet entered metro Portland/Vancouver near Tena Bar.
3) Upon landing on or near Tena Bar Cooper buried everything thereby giving him time to get out of the area.
4) Cooper later returned under cover of darkness, most likely within several days, to retrieve everything he buried.
5) During the retrieval process of the money bag--again which is open on top--he lifted the money bag, which was probably laid sideways in the hole, and a few packets of cash fell out and stayed behind in the hole.
6) Eights years later, after significant beach erosion, the once buried packets are unearthed but obviously in a decayed state after eight years.
While anything is possible, I don't see that scenario supported by evidence or reason. Some speculation is needed and beneficial but too much speculation there, IMO.
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How did Danny get to the airport before the skyjacking?
My favorite fantasies are:
1. Flew in from Minneapolis after arriving there on 305 from Washington, DC, where he stashed some stuff in the overhead compartments. While 305 was puddle-jumping across Montana, Dan took a direct flight to PDX.
2. Arrived by Zodiak, as per Bill Rollins' scenario, parking his boat in the weeds and walking to the terminal.
3. Got a ride from his extraction team, who then later set up along the I-5 corridor for the rendezvous.
Bruce,
You used the name Danny.. it reminded me of..
Tosaw used the name Daniel? why?
Did Cooper ever use anything other than Dan, as on the ticket? was the Dan written on the ticket short for Daniel?
I think FBI docs used Dan or Daniel but that may have been a just guess by them.. I'll have to find those again.
Starting at 4:40 in this audio interview - Tosaw said the hijacker gave the name Daniel Cooper to ticket agent.. if so, did the agent just abbreviate it to Dan.
Tosaw quote..
"We don't know his true name, although it very well might be, he could be Dan Cooper incidentally not DB, that was a mix up in the, later on occurred, but Daniel Cooper was the name he gave the ticket agent when he bought his ticket at the airport there in Portland Oregon at the International Airport and it was twenty dollars and they asked him, they said, here is your twenty dollars here is your ticket and so what is your name, he said Daniel Cooper so he got on the plane..."
https://www.stevenrinehart.com/uploads/DB2-48br.mp3
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I've only heard "Dan." Until you wrote the above I had never heard of "Daniel."
BTW: Truth Be Told, I prefer "Danny Boy," as in DB. It feel so cute.
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It does make sense, the pilots wanted to get Tina off the plane, take off with stairs partially open would achieve that.
The 302's are agent summaries which are less reliable than the pilot transcripts.
Read that pilot transcript.. carefully,, it is the most accurate for order of events
Just because you say something doesn't make it true.
Consider the path of a transcript:
1) Cooper makes demand to Tina.
2) Tina relays demand to Florence via airphone.
3) Florence writes down and relays demand to pilots.
4) Pilots relay demand via radio to 3rd party who provides the patch through to the FBI.
5) 3rd party transcribes the radio communication and passes it on.
Now this process is remarkably more accurate than:
1) Tina, Florence and pilots convey info to FBI during interview.
I'm not buying it. Furthermore, I addressed the phrase about the airstairs being down inflight above. You're taking one piece of a transcript and declaring it accurate but other things that contradict it inaccurate. What do you base this pronouncement upon? How do you know that Cooper didn't use the word 'lowered" (actually "lwrd" in the transcript) as an adjective as opposed to a verb? How do you know that the pilots interpreted the initial Cooper demand via Tina and Florence properly as a verb or an adjective?
This is why I say that these things have to be read carefully, not just literally, and certainly not selectively.
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So what you are saying is that SP buried his loot in the sand at Tina Bar on Nov 24, 1971 and came back the next day or within a week and dug it up but ACCIDENTLY dropped 3 bundles. The ONLY explanation as to why SP would do something so risky and dangerous is because your theory says that’s what he did. Other than your theory, is there anything to refute that it might have been there a year, 2 years or ? Years ? I just can’t accept a theory as PROOF that SP burrying the equivalent of $1.2 Million on a public beach frequented by Fisherman and a very unpredictable river is certainly questionable!
Yes, that is precisely what I'm saying. I am also saying that the roughly 6K found on Tena Bar had been buried on the beach since November 24, 1971.
My theory is as such:
1) Cooper initially planned to jump near Seattle but missed his opportunity when the cash arrived in an open-top bank bag and the airstairs initially wouldn't deploy.
2) Cooper eventually jumped as the jet entered metro Portland/Vancouver near Tena Bar.
3) Upon landing on or near Tena Bar Cooper buried everything thereby giving him time to get out of the area.
4) Cooper later returned under cover of darkness, most likely within several days, to retrieve everything he buried.
5) During the retrieval process of the money bag--again which is open on top--he lifted the money bag, which was probably laid sideways in the hole, and a few packets of cash fell out and stayed behind in the hole.
6) Eights years later, after significant beach erosion, the once buried packets are unearthed but obviously in a decayed state after eight years.
While anything is possible, I don't see that scenario supported by evidence or reason. Some speculation is needed and beneficial but too much speculation there, IMO.
We're supposed to believe that this theory involves "too much speculation" even though the money was found on Tena Bar?
Yet the theory about landing in the Willamette River is more likely? That's sort of rich, isn't it?
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So what you are saying is that SP buried his loot in the sand at Tina Bar on Nov 24, 1971 and came back the next day or within a week and dug it up but ACCIDENTLY dropped 3 bundles. The ONLY explanation as to why SP would do something so risky and dangerous is because your theory says that’s what he did. Other than your theory, is there anything to refute that it might have been there a year, 2 years or ? Years ? I just can’t accept a theory as PROOF that SP burrying the equivalent of $1.2 Million on a public beach frequented by Fisherman and a very unpredictable river is certainly questionable!
Yes, that is precisely what I'm saying. I am also saying that the roughly 6K found on Tena Bar had been buried on the beach since November 24, 1971.
My theory is as such:
1) Cooper initially planned to jump near Seattle but missed his opportunity when the cash arrived in an open-top bank bag and the airstairs initially wouldn't deploy.
2) Cooper eventually jumped as the jet entered metro Portland/Vancouver near Tena Bar.
3) Upon landing on or near Tena Bar Cooper buried everything thereby giving him time to get out of the area.
4) Cooper later returned under cover of darkness, most likely within several days, to retrieve everything he buried.
5) During the retrieval process of the money bag--again which is open on top--he lifted the money bag, which was probably laid sideways in the hole, and a few packets of cash fell out and stayed behind in the hole.
6) Eights years later, after significant beach erosion, the once buried packets are unearthed but obviously in a decayed state after eight years.
While anything is possible, I don't see that scenario supported by evidence or reason. Some speculation is needed and beneficial but too much speculation there, IMO.
We're supposed to believe that this theory involves "too much speculation" even though the money was found on Tena Bar?
Yet the theory about landing in the Willamette River is more likely? That's sort of rich, isn't it?
I never claimed that. I said it is a theory I am looking at, simple and direct float to TBAR. I believe it more likely he landed near the FBI LZ.
You need to move the flighpath, that alone is a heavy lift...
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It does make sense, the pilots wanted to get Tina off the plane, take off with stairs partially open would achieve that.
The 302's are agent summaries which are less reliable than the pilot transcripts.
Read that pilot transcript.. carefully,, it is the most accurate for order of events
Just because you say something doesn't make it true.
Consider the path of a transcript:
1) Cooper makes demand to Tina.
2) Tina relays demand to Florence via airphone.
3) Florence writes down and relays demand to pilots.
4) Pilots relay demand via radio to 3rd party who provides the patch through to the FBI.
5) 3rd party transcribes the radio communication and passes it on.
Now this process is remarkably more accurate than:
1) Tina, Florence and pilots convey info to FBI during interview.
I'm not buying it. Furthermore, I addressed the phrase about the airstairs being down inflight above. You're taking one piece of a transcript and declaring it accurate but other things that contradict it inaccurate. What do you base this pronouncement upon? How do you know that Cooper didn't use the word 'lowered" (actually "lwrd" in the transcript) as an adjective as opposed to a verb? How do you know that the pilots interpreted the initial Cooper demand via Tina and Florence properly as a verb or an adjective?
This is why I say that these things have to be read carefully, not just literally, and certainly not selectively.
The transcript is the sequential convo between flight ops and the crew... it is far more accurate than FBI interviews and agent summaries, especially for timing of events.
If you want to claim that the crew misinterpreted Cooper in the real time transcripts then why not go all the way and assume nothing is true. That way you can make up anything you want.
It is also confirmed elsewhere that Cooper initially requested the airstairs lowered in flight.. the airstairs down on take off convo came later...
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I never claimed that. I said it is a theory I am looking at, simple and direct float to TBAR. I believe it more likely he landed near the FBI LZ.
You need to move the flighpath, that alone is a heavy lift...
The flight path heavy lift is on the part of the FBI. Robert99 did an outstanding job of addressing the flight path. I think he nailed it especially considering the physical evidence (money find). Where the FBI came up with their haven't-found-anything-at-all-after-47-years-flight-path and subsequent DZ is a mystery that they can't even explain.
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If you want to claim that the crew misinterpreted Cooper in the real time transcripts then why not go all the way and assume nothing is true. That way you can make up anything you want.
This is an argument you cannot win.
Parts of the story are contradictory. Therefore, all versions cannot be true. Therefore, you create a circular argument which will lose every time.
Verb vs Adjective.
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If you want to claim that the crew misinterpreted Cooper in the real time transcripts then why not go all the way and assume nothing is true. That way you can make up anything you want.
This is an argument you cannot win.
Parts of the story are contradictory. Therefore, all versions cannot be true. Therefore, you create a circular argument which will lose every time.
Verb vs Adjective.
that is your opinion..
The transcripts are far more accurate for the sequence of events. PERIOD
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The crew did not change anything other than telling him it's better with the stairs up...6:44 the radio says that he is insistent with the stairs extended...that's Cooper, not the crew..first he wanted them partially down, and then full..the crew tried to work with him explaining they can't rotate (takeoff) with them extended...he finally agree's to allow them up...then he wants Tina to operate the stairs and they are worried she might get sucked out...even Cooper told her that wouldn't happen but would tie her if she wanted..
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7:22 HE FIINALLY AGREE'S TO ALLOW THEM TO TAKEOFF WITH THEM UP...as they wanted them from get go...no pilot wants something amiss that he hasn't a clue about....
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7:22 HE FIINALLY AGREE'S TO ALLOW THEM TO TAKEOFF WITH THEM UP...as they wanted them from get go...no pilot wants something amiss that he hasn't a clue about....
Nope, read those two attachments, Cooper initially wanted the airstairs opened in flight, Later they discussed the airstairs down on take off. That was either to get Tina off the plane or due to change to Reno...
Airstairs down on take off was not his initial demand.
read the attachments in post #3104 and #3105
http://www.thedbcooperforum.com/db-cooper/clues-documents-and-evidence-about-the-case/3090/
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I've read it and I've read the other transcripts...they would not say the steps are going to be partially down and then say he's insistent with the stairs extended..it looks like they are saying that but it's just not the case...you are skull fucking this to no end..why would he agree to have the fully up just before takeoff if the crew was trying to get them partially down for takeoff...they were trying partial due to him changing it to fully extended..
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what it sounds like is in Cooper's demands was partially extended..he then wanted them fully extended prior to takeoff and Tina to manipulate the stairs for him at some point..that never happens because she's in the cockpit when he was having trouble getting them down. in between part up or down and Tina involved they were worried about her safety...you don't see anywhere in the transcripts where he obviously allows her not to be in the back while he opens them by himself in flight, so what happened to tying Tina off? at the same time they are also on the company phone saying things we don't hear...you see gaps in the radio transmissions..
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Further down in the same transcripts:
Pilot: we're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well, we've kind of convinced him now that we can't takeoff with them in ground position. But he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know..
Ground: what's he want down.
Pilot: back steps.
Ground: no, you can't do that...
Pilot: were talking to Paul and he says we got a plan how we can get them down..
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Following the comment above they are thinking about bailing out of the plane and ask if they can get Tina to the front..they respond saying no due to Cooper saying "no funny stuff"
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Further down in the same transcripts:
Pilot: we're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well, we've kind of convinced him now that we can't takeoff with them in ground position. But he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know..
Ground: what's he want down.
Pilot: back steps.
Ground: no, you can't do that...
Pilot: were talking to Paul and he says we got a plan how we can get them down..
Cooper clearly demanded the airstairs lowered in flight initially.. "aft stairs to be lowered after take off"
LATER,,
The context for airstairs down on take off.. (this context may be debatable)
After the discussion about the stews "trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff"
AND
After the discussion about the fuel range and another destination.
My point is that Cooper's initial demand was "airstairs lowered in flight" it isn't clear who or why the later discussion about airstairs lowered on take off was initiated. I believe he discussed lowering before take off either to allow Tina off the plane or because they were discussing the new destination.
The common narrative has been wrong.. His initial demand was NOT take off with airstairs lowered.
.
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Further down in the same transcripts:
Pilot: we're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well, we've kind of convinced him now that we can't takeoff with them in ground position. But he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know..
Ground: what's he want down.
Pilot: back steps.
Ground: no, you can't do that...
Pilot: were talking to Paul and he says we got a plan how we can get them down..
Cooper clearly demanded the airstairs lowered in flight initially.. "aft stairs to be lowered after take off"
LATER,,
The context for airstairs down on take off.. (this context may be debatable)
After the discussion about the stews "trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff"
AND
After the discussion about the fuel range and another destination.
My point is that Cooper's initial demand was "airstairs lowered in flight" it isn't clear who or why the later discussion about airstairs lowered on take off was initiated. I believe he discussed lowering before take off either to allow Tina off the plane or because they were discussing the new destination.
The common narrative has been wrong.. His initial demand was NOT take off with airstairs lowered.
.
Again, this is absolutely wrong. You're reading the transcript at a point where the decision has already been made by Cooper to take off with the airstairs up.
Tina's 302 is crystal clear that Cooper initiated the demand for the airstairs to be deployed at all. Furthermore, she also made it crystal clear that all of the stewardesses--including her--would be permitted to deplane once everything was in order. Additionally, that the only reason she had to stay behind was after the pilots informed Cooper, and Cooper agreed, that the airstairs needed to remain up for take-off.
Tina is the person who took the demand directly from Cooper.
By the way, Rataczak's 302 confirms Tina's 302 and sequence of events.
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Further down in the same transcripts:
Pilot: we're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well, we've kind of convinced him now that we can't takeoff with them in ground position. But he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know..
Ground: what's he want down.
Pilot: back steps.
Ground: no, you can't do that...
Pilot: were talking to Paul and he says we got a plan how we can get them down..
Cooper clearly demanded the airstairs lowered in flight initially.. "aft stairs to be lowered after take off"
LATER,,
The context for airstairs down on take off.. (this context may be debatable)
After the discussion about the stews "trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff"
AND
After the discussion about the fuel range and another destination.
My point is that Cooper's initial demand was "airstairs lowered in flight" it isn't clear who or why the later discussion about airstairs lowered on take off was initiated. I believe he discussed lowering before take off either to allow Tina off the plane or because they were discussing the new destination.
The common narrative has been wrong.. His initial demand was NOT take off with airstairs lowered.
.
Again, this is absolutely wrong. You're reading the transcript at a point where the decision has already been made by Cooper to take off with the airstairs up.
Tina's 302 is crystal clear that Cooper initiated the demand for the airstairs to be deployed at all. Furthermore, she also made it crystal clear that all of the stewardesses--including her--would be permitted to deplane once everything was in order. Additionally, that the only reason she had to stay behind was after the pilots informed Cooper, and Cooper agreed, that the airstairs needed to remain up for take-off.
Tina is the person who took the demand directly from Cooper.
By the way, Rataczak's 302 confirms Tina's 302 and sequence of events.
I don't agree, read the transcript, it is clear..
The witness 302's are less reliable for timing and sequences. They were interviewed together and 302's are agents interpretations of interview notes. The transcript sequence is solid.
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Further down in the same transcripts:
Pilot: we're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well, we've kind of convinced him now that we can't takeoff with them in ground position. But he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know..
Ground: what's he want down.
Pilot: back steps.
Ground: no, you can't do that...
Pilot: were talking to Paul and he says we got a plan how we can get them down..
Cooper clearly demanded the airstairs lowered in flight initially.. "aft stairs to be lowered after take off"
LATER,,
The context for airstairs down on take off.. (this context may be debatable)
After the discussion about the stews "trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff"
AND
After the discussion about the fuel range and another destination.
My point is that Cooper's initial demand was "airstairs lowered in flight" it isn't clear who or why the later discussion about airstairs lowered on take off was initiated. I believe he discussed lowering before take off either to allow Tina off the plane or because they were discussing the new destination.
The common narrative has been wrong.. His initial demand was NOT take off with airstairs lowered.
.
Again, this is absolutely wrong. You're reading the transcript at a point where the decision has already been made by Cooper to take off with the airstairs up.
Tina's 302 is crystal clear that Cooper initiated the demand for the airstairs to be deployed at all. Furthermore, she also made it crystal clear that all of the stewardesses--including her--would be permitted to deplane once everything was in order. Additionally, that the only reason she had to stay behind was after the pilots informed Cooper, and Cooper agreed, that the airstairs needed to remain up for take-off.
Tina is the person who took the demand directly from Cooper.
By the way, Rataczak's 302 confirms Tina's 302 and sequence of events.
I don't agree, read the transcript, it is clear..
The witness 302's are less reliable for timing and sequences. They were interviewed together and 302's are agents interpretations of interview notes. The transcript sequence is solid.
The transcript and 302s make perfect sense if you understand what is happening.
Cooper demands the airstairs be down during take-off to the flight crew. Tina reports back to him that they can't do it. Cooper responds "yes they can" but let's do it their way. This was negotiated between Cooper and the flight deck alone.
The pilot reports that the airstairs will be lowered after take-off per Cooper's demands. This makes it into the transcripts and is what you're reading.
About 45 minutes later Cooper discusses having the airstairs partially open on take-off. Minneapolis shoots this down.
Another 20 minutes later, Cooper brings the matter up again and is "insistent" about departing with the airstairs down according to the pilot. This is reported to Minneapolis which says no-can-do. For a second time Cooper eventually relents and says "let's get the show on the road."
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Further down in the same transcripts:
Pilot: we're in a rut. Well he seems to want those back steps down. Well, we've kind of convinced him now that we can't takeoff with them in ground position. But he wants them down when we get airborne, fly with it down and then so he can bail out at any time, I don't know..
Ground: what's he want down.
Pilot: back steps.
Ground: no, you can't do that...
Pilot: were talking to Paul and he says we got a plan how we can get them down..
Cooper clearly demanded the airstairs lowered in flight initially.. "aft stairs to be lowered after take off"
LATER,,
The context for airstairs down on take off.. (this context may be debatable)
After the discussion about the stews "trying to get him to let us lower stairs partially for takeoff"
AND
After the discussion about the fuel range and another destination.
My point is that Cooper's initial demand was "airstairs lowered in flight" it isn't clear who or why the later discussion about airstairs lowered on take off was initiated. I believe he discussed lowering before take off either to allow Tina off the plane or because they were discussing the new destination.
The common narrative has been wrong.. His initial demand was NOT take off with airstairs lowered.
.
Again, this is absolutely wrong. You're reading the transcript at a point where the decision has already been made by Cooper to take off with the airstairs up.
Tina's 302 is crystal clear that Cooper initiated the demand for the airstairs to be deployed at all. Furthermore, she also made it crystal clear that all of the stewardesses--including her--would be permitted to deplane once everything was in order. Additionally, that the only reason she had to stay behind was after the pilots informed Cooper, and Cooper agreed, that the airstairs needed to remain up for take-off.
Tina is the person who took the demand directly from Cooper.
By the way, Rataczak's 302 confirms Tina's 302 and sequence of events.
I don't agree, read the transcript, it is clear..
The witness 302's are less reliable for timing and sequences. They were interviewed together and 302's are agents interpretations of interview notes. The transcript sequence is solid.
The transcript and 302s make perfect sense if you understand what is happening.
Cooper demands the airstairs be down during take-off to the flight crew. Tina reports back to him that they can't do it. Cooper responds "yes they can" but let's do it their way. This was negotiated between Cooper and the flight deck alone.
The pilot reports that the airstairs will be lowered after take-off per Cooper's demands. This makes it into the transcripts and is what you're reading.
About 45 minutes later Cooper discusses having the airstairs partially open on take-off. Minneapolis shoots this down.
Another 20 minutes later, Cooper brings the matter up again and is "insistent" about departing with the airstairs down according to the pilot. This is reported to Minneapolis which says no-can-do. For a second time Cooper eventually relents and says "let's get the show on the road."
Are you reading the transcript.. 302's aren't nearly as reliable = agent's summary of notes, they probably confused the rear door with the rear stairs.
Transcript - aft stairs to be lowered after take off is part of Cooper's initial demands.
305 - We have instructions... wants to Mexico city.. gear down flaps at 15 deg.. after underway all lights turned out in aircraft cannot land in Us for fuel or other reason no crew member is to go aft os F C curtain
Flight OPs - Even if full tanks U cannot land in Mexico
305 - Aft Psgr loading door will be open and remain in that posn and aft stairs to be lwrd after take off
Flight OPs - The drag wil be such that U cannot make Mexican border even with aft stairs up
LATER they discuss the aft stairs lowered during take off.
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Are you reading the transcript.. 302's aren't nearly as reliable = agent's summary of notes, they probably confused the rear door with the rear stairs.
Transcript - aft stairs to be lowered after take off is part of Cooper's initial demands.
305 - We have instructions... wants to Mexico city.. gear down flaps at 15 deg.. after underway all lights turned out in aircraft cannot land in Us for fuel or other reason no crew member is to go aft os F C curtain
Flight OPs - Even if full tanks U cannot land in Mexico
305 - Aft Psgr loading door will be open and remain in that posn and aft stairs to be lwrd after take off
Flight OPs - The drag wil be such that U cannot make Mexican border even with aft stairs up
LATER they discuss the aft stairs lowered during take off.
They're talking about the bulkhead pressure door that leads to the airstairs. By keeping it open the cabin remains unpressurized.
I'm pointing out that the initial discussions between Cooper, Tina and the flight deck--which both Tina and Rataczak discuss in their 302s--regarding the airstairs being deployed are not discussed in the transcripts. The transcripts first bring up the subject after Cooper was initially persuaded to take-off with the airstairs up. Later Cooper brings the subject up again and finally relents to the pilot's demands that they take-off with the airstairs in the up position.
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This subject is closed....it's going nowhere and nowhere fast...
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Going through some FBI docs found a Dec 1981 memo that a US Federal Bank Bag was found at an Xmas tree lot in California, the Xmas trees came from an Oregon tree farm.. The FBI agent tried to contact but was unsuccessful.
I understand the Cooper Ransom bag was canvas with no handles and no draw string..
Was there any writing on the bag?
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plain canvas bag...was this the one were a map was provided? I guess not after reading it again lol
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Going through some FBI docs found a Dec 1981 memo that a US Federal Bank Bag was found at an Xmas tree lot in California, the Xmas trees came from an Oregon tree farm.. The FBI agent tried to contact but was unsuccessful.
I understand the Cooper Ransom bag was canvas with no handles and no draw string..
Was there any writing on the bag?
The bad didn't have any handles? So it was essentially a canvas version of a paper grocery bag?
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similar to the photo below..no markings or bank names on it....it's why Cooper was a little upset..
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similar to the photo below..no markings or bank names on it....it's why Cooper was a little upset..
So it's essentially a we're-f'n-with-you-bag? Not exactly a knapsack.
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similar to the photo below..no markings or bank names on it....it's why Cooper was a little upset..
So it's essentially a we're-f'n-with-you-bag? Not exactly a knapsack.
Correct, can even be considered "funny stuff"...he was not happy with the bag...
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similar to the photo below..no markings or bank names on it....it's why Cooper was a little upset..
would have been very difficult to tie up and hang on to...
Do you happen to remember where the "no markings" came from?
.
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actually, Carr says it wasn't canvas...
"It was not canvas but some type of cloth"
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I don't know if it's taken from early reports or Carr saying it...he does explain why the straps were not on the money so i can't see them using a bag with the banks name on it...
Carr
As for the "shocking " information about the money, I spoke with the individual who carried the money from the bank to the airport the night of the hijacking. When I was talking with him he recounted that they were in the vault running the money through the counting machine and strapping the bundles. I didn't catch it at, first but later in our conversation I caught on to the strapping part and said, "wait a minute." "you were strapping the $20.00 bundles with $2,000 paper straps?" He said "yes" and I almost fell out of my chair.
So I then started putting calls into Brian Ingram. He called me back and we spoke about the discovery of the money. What I found was that the money was not recovered near the water but about 20 to 40 feet from the edge. He said he found it in an area that had recently been covered in water. So I thought, "well not really much of a difference." I then asked for the details about the condition of the money when he found it and he confirmed, after speaking with his parents, that the money absolutely had rubber bands around the bundles. This makes sense because there is no way paper straps would have kept the money together over the years.
So this all means, on face value, that if the money given to Cooper by the bank had paper straps and the found money had rubber bands....... well you could see how I was a bit perplexed. This would mean that either Cooper lived and repackaged the money or someone found the money and repackaged it. Which would be "par for the course" with regard to this case.
I then went back and re-interviewed the bank security manager and found out that he wasn't directly involved in packaging the money, only carrying it to the airport. He was relaying what their normal procedure was for processing and packaging money for shipment.
The funds that were given to Cooper were not pulled from their circulating cash but from a security fund that was prepackaged for these types of incidents. This money was not strapped because the bank did not want any subjects to know where it came from so it was packaged with rubber bands. My head was spinning for a few days until I could get it straight.
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I wonder if we'll eventually get our hands on pictures of the evidence? Specifically, I'd like to see pictures of the undisturbed tie with tie clip. I've always suspected that Cooper was left-handed.
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actually, Carr says it wasn't canvas...
"It was not canvas but some type of cloth"
FBI files say canvas
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actually, Carr says it wasn't canvas...
"It was not canvas but some type of cloth"
FBI files say canvas
could of been what they call "canvas cloth" I don't know...
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actually, Carr says it wasn't canvas...
"It was not canvas but some type of cloth"
FBI files say canvas
could of been what they call "canvas cloth" I don't know...
yes, cloth means a woven fabric, includes canvas
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actually, Carr says it wasn't canvas...
"It was not canvas but some type of cloth"
FBI files say canvas
could of been what they call "canvas cloth" I don't know...
Wouldn't surprise me to discover some document at some point saying it was mylar given the history of this case...yes, I realize mylar probably came along later...
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some files say ladder for the stairs..
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The plane the guy stole in Seattle has people saying a jet airliner...it was a prop :chr2:
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The plane the guy stole in Seattle has people saying a jet airliner...it was a prop :chr2:
Word is he was trying to make it to Roswell.
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He's no longer been "shot down" ? I kept reading that....
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WOW, the tax liability for anyone claiming to be Cooper was calculated for the FBI by the IRS and it is MASSIVE..
about $176,000 in 1976 plus interest every year after..
Was this an attempt to keep Cooper quiet?
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It has been mentioned/rumoured that Cooper had a scar on his hand, info that the FBI has held back..
Does anybody have any source for this?
Tosaw or Himmelsbach's book?
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WOW, the tax liability for anyone claiming to be Cooper was calculated for the FBI by the IRS and it is MASSIVE..
about $176,000 in 1976 plus interest every year after..
Was this an attempt to keep Cooper quiet?
I don't know if this is necessarily true.
You are liable for income tax in a calendar for three years after the due date of the tax or three years after the date you file WHICHEVER IS LATER.
So, if Cooper filed an income tax return for the 1971 tax year, but failed to report the hijacking proceeds as income, that tax year can no longer be reviewed.
On the other hand, if he never filed income tax for 1971, the three year clock has not yet started and he is still on the hook.
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It has been mentioned/rumoured that Cooper had a scar on his hand, info that the FBI has held back..
Does anybody have any source for this?
Tosaw or Himmelsbach's book?
Are you referring to a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx?
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It has been mentioned/rumoured that Cooper had a scar on his hand, info that the FBI has held back..
Does anybody have any source for this?
Tosaw or Himmelsbach's book?
Are you referring to a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx?
No idea if Cooper actually had a hand scar or not or where it is assumed, it has been rumoured/mentioned but I can't confirm any "legit" source...
Just asking if anybody knows of a source?
Bruce mentioned it but he can't recall the source..
https://themountainnewswa.net/2013/02/06/the-hunt-for-db-cooper-who-was-cooper-what-is-known/
"Although he had no visible tattoos, scars or distinguishing anatomical features that are known publicly, it is rumored that the FBI knows of a small scar on Cooper’s hand that it has not revealed to the public."
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All I know is Jo Weber is the leading proponent of that rumor. Have you called her, yet? If you do, set aside about 90 minutes at least for the interview......
...just sayin'....
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Jo has been incommunicado lately. Perhaps I’ve been taken off her mail list?
I give her a hard time about presenting her biased speculation as fact.
377
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Not a good sign. I'll call her tomorrow.
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I've been conversing with some former Southern Air Transport crew trying to get addl info on the 727 airdrop tests done over Korat Thailand. They are a tight lipped group, even now.
Saw this SAT t-shirt photo. I can't help but think about a certain US Supreme Court candidate when I read the words that circle the logo. ;)
377
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I've been conversing with some former Southern Air Transport crew trying to get addl info on the 727 airdrop tests done over Korat Thailand. They are a tight lipped group, even now.
Saw this SAT t-shirt photo. I can't help but think about a certain US Supreme Court candidate when I read the words that circle the logo. ;)
377
Tight lipped is an under-statement! :nono: :rofl: These guys just laugh and wont say one word. And then they laugh some more . . .
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Kinda like a biker gang but with planes instead of motorcycles. ;)
It's not exactly Fly the Friendly Skies.
377
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That's been my experience trying to get anything out of Air America or Southern Air guys.
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Hello all. Been a while but had to take a break from my research and manuscript. Back on the case lol
Have a question(s) about Alwood "Al" Lee: I've seen him described as the "Director of Flying" (FBI Statement) and "Ops Manager of Sea-Tac" (various places). What does a Director of Flying do? Is it the same duties as Ops Manager? Where they one and the same back then?
Thanks.
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It is my understanding that AL Lee was the NWO Ground Ops boss, while George Harrison was the NWO Flight Ops guy. What their specific duties were and how they differed, I don't know.
While we're discussing these two guys, Earl Cossey said that Al Lee contacted him at home for the back chutes, and George Harrison talked with Norman Hayden for his chutes.
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Thank you Bruce. Never ran across anything in the FBI files were Lee contacted Cossey. Did I miss it or was it something Cossey relayed to you?
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David, do you have the Harrison files? they mention the chutes..
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Yes Shutter, I have the Harrison files. Great stuff. I remember the mention of the chutes but nothing about Lee contacting Cossey.
If my research is not mistaken, Cossey was the rigger.
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Coss told me that Al Lee had contacted him directly on the day in question.
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Reenactment of the flight the next night?
I have run across a couple of references stating that the FBI -with the same plan and crew- flew the exact route the next night (which would have been Thanksgiving). Specifically a newspaper article written in 1976. No where does the FBI files make reference to this. It is my understanding only the test drop flight the next year came close to reenacting the flight and jump.
Unless someone has info I don't, I'v gotta say the story is incorrect. 100% incorrect.
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Interesting tidbit, Dovid. Please keep looking.
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I have a picture with everyone involved with the flight test. it also has the names on the pic..let me find it and I'll post it..
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Here it is...
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Reenactment of the flight the next night?
I have run across a couple of references stating that the FBI -with the same plan and crew- flew the exact route the next night (which would have been Thanksgiving). Specifically a newspaper article written in 1976. No where does the FBI files make reference to this. It is my understanding only the test drop flight the next year came close to reenacting the flight and jump.
Unless someone has info I don't, I'v gotta say the story is incorrect. 100% incorrect.
My memory is fuzzy on next-day details, but wouldn't reports of a simulation the next night conflict with the feds stating that bad weather delayed the ground search for quite a while? If it's too bad for a ground search, it's too bad for a flight. But like I say, I don't remember much about when the weather supposedly cleared. There's still a certain amount of debate as to how bad the weather ever was. Bruce, I think you looked at that in a fair amount of detail.
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Reenactment of the flight the next night?
I have run across a couple of references stating that the FBI -with the same plan and crew- flew the exact route the next night (which would have been Thanksgiving). Specifically a newspaper article written in 1976. No where does the FBI files make reference to this. It is my understanding only the test drop flight the next year came close to reenacting the flight and jump.
Unless someone has info I don't, I'v gotta say the story is incorrect. 100% incorrect.
My memory is fuzzy on next-day details, but wouldn't reports of a simulation the next night conflict with the feds stating that bad weather delayed the ground search for quite a while? If it's too bad for a ground search, it's too bad for a flight. But like I say, I don't remember much about when the weather supposedly cleared. There's still a certain amount of debate as to how bad the weather ever was. Bruce, I think you looked at that in a fair amount of detail.
No. Weather is different in different places on the same day.
For example I am sitting ina raging blizzard with 13" on the ground. 16" 90 miles just south of me. WX in norhtern Iowa is no snow at all. Weather changes by zones.
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I tend to agree with Georger. Weather is highly variable, especially in the PNW, and the reports of hellacious weather and fierce winds has to be considered as highly localized and not indicative of the overall weather through the area, and for the hours of the skyjacking.
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Florida can have rain on one side of the highway and not the other. heavy storms can erupt a mile away while the sunshines a mile away.
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Florida can have rain on one side of the highway and not the other. heavy storms can erupt a mile away while the sunshines a mile away.
We got hit, north of here 30 miles almost nothing ... south of here 14 inches in 5 hours. Just one of those early snow heavies .... warm humid air from Missouri comes north and 'boom'. The skiers and kids love it!
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I tend to agree with Georger. Weather is highly variable, especially in the PNW, and the reports of hellacious weather and fierce winds has to be considered as highly localized and not indicative of the overall weather through the area, and for the hours of the skyjacking.
I should have phrased that better. When did the ground search actually begin and what area did it cover?
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Ground Search
The initial ground search began on Friday, November 26, 1971 in the early afternoon. Approximately 20-25 Clark Country Sheriff Deputies and local volunteers from the fire department searched along Cedar Creek Road, west of downtown Amboy, WA.
They searched all weekend, but rain and darkness limited the scope of the investigation. It wasn't light enough to search safely until 8:30 am, and it had to wrap up by 4 pm.
Although LZ-A was estimated to be 3-4 miles wide and 5-6 miles long, only about one square mile along Cedar Creek Road was examined before the ground search was terminated four days later by the FBI on Monday, November 29, 1971. At that point the FBI put all their resources into the V-23 aerial search from Seattle to Reno.
In March, 1972 the Feds came back with 200 troopers. SA George Grotz told me about 20 FBI agents accompanied the soldiers into the woods. They searched throughout the Amboy area for two weeks, then stopped due to weather concerns. They returned in early April for another two weeks.
However, there was a selective ground search throughout Amboy in late November - early December 1971, as best as I can determine from residents. Lots of agents conducted a very thorough search of homes, barns, outbuildings and such. I don't know when it concluded, but I suspect it didn't last longer than a week. Himms would know. He wrote about it a little.
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Anybody have any intelligent theories as to why Cooper requested a flap setting of 15 degrees and max speed of 200 mph?
377, any thoughts?
The 727 had detent flap settings of 2, 5, 15, 25, 30 and 40 degrees. The max speed at 15 degrees was 205 kts which translates to 236 mph. On the other hand, at 40 degrees the max speed is 170 kts which translates to 196 mph.
Why didn't Cooper simply require a flap setting at 40 degrees to ensure the max speed of the jet remained under 200 mph? Is it possible that the additional drag of the landing gear and deployed airstairs played into his calculations? In other words, would the jet have a hard time maintaining flight with flaps at 40 and the gear and airstairs deployed?
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Anybody have any intelligent theories as to why Cooper requested a flap setting of 15 degrees and max speed of 200 mph?
377, any thoughts?
The 727 had detent flap settings of 2, 5, 15, 25, 30 and 40 degrees. The max speed at 15 degrees was 205 kts which translates to 236 mph. On the other hand, at 40 degrees the max speed is 170 kts which translates to 196 mph.
Why didn't Cooper simply require a flap setting at 40 degrees to ensure the max speed of the jet remained under 200 mph? Is it possible that the additional drag of the landing gear and deployed airstairs played into his calculations? In other words, would the jet have a hard time maintaining flight with flaps at 40 and the gear and airstairs deployed?
Can you direct us to the passage where he asks for 15 degrees ... ?
I dont believe the flaps were at 15* when he bailed ? I seem to recall the flaps were at 30 when he jumped but I could be wrong ?
Snowmman used to make up trick questions about the flap settings at DZ, to see if we were paying attention.
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Can you direct us to the passage where he asks for 15 degrees ... ?
I dont believe the flaps were at 15* when he bailed ? I seem to recall the flaps were at 30 when he jumped but I could be wrong ?
Snowmman used to make up trick questions about the flap settings at DZ, to see if we were paying attention.
The 15 degree setting is mentioned in a number of places in the FBI files. An example, Section 27, Pages 119-120 discusses this and the 15 degree request.
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The flaps were set when they were at 7000 feet at the beginning of the flight. they were only at 30 degree's for a short period and switched back to 15 degree's where they stayed the remainder of the flight. if I'm correct, they switched back when they started to climb to 10,000.
40 degree flaps is like dragging a chute behind you. it would burn a massive amount of fuel....massive.
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The flaps were set when they were at 7000 feet at the beginning of the flight. they were only at 30 degree's for a short period and switched back to 15 degree's where they stayed the remainder of the flight. if I'm correct, they switched back when they started to climb to 10,000.
40 degree flaps is like dragging a chute behind you. it would burn a massive amount of fuel....massive.
It makes sense that the flaps were in their standard take-off setting which is 30 or 40 degrees. After all, the take-off was perfectly normal other than the jet was unpressurized.
At some point thereafter they were dropped to 15 degrees per Cooper's request, not to mention the gear stayed down and the airstairs were lowered.
As I've read through the 727-100 Flight Manual it strikes me as apparent that Cooper was intimately familiar with the jet and its flap settings and limitations. In other words, the 15 degree order wasn't an arbitrary order.
This further convinces me that Cooper knew a lot about the 727. Moreover, that any credible suspect has to explain how he came by this unique knowledge.
One other interesting thing, I noted that the 727 had an emergency flashlight attached near the rear bulkhead door. I'm curious as to whether this flashlight was still on the jet when it arrived in Reno. Cooper, regardless of who he was, would have benefited from the use of a flashlight to help him spot his night landing.
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TAKEOFF
Precise, smooth rotation will make the runway effectively longer. When taking off with a
crosswind, sufficient ailerons into the wind should be used to maintain a wings level attitude. Care
should be taken not to rotate too early or too rapidly under a crosswind condition. It should be
noted that if a 5° flap take-off is being made, the results will be a longer take-off roll; higher V1,
Vr and V2 speeds; as well as rotation to a higher deck angle for any given gross weight. Hold
rotated attitude during initial stage of climb. Do not raise gear until positive rate of climb is
established. Make minor attitude adjustments to maintain V2 + 10. Do not exceed a 20° deck
angle.
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You have to determine the weight of the aircraft for the proper flap settings...length of runway and winds as well.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0ukH4pzq4w
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It makes sense that the flaps were in their standard take-off setting which is 30 or 40 degrees. After all, the take-off was perfectly normal other than the jet was unpressurized.
Not standard that I'm aware of?
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The flaps were set when they were at 7000 feet at the beginning of the flight. they were only at 30 degree's for a short period and switched back to 15 degree's where they stayed the remainder of the flight. if I'm correct, they switched back when they started to climb to 10,000.
40 degree flaps is like dragging a chute behind you. it would burn a massive amount of fuel....massive.
It makes sense that the flaps were in their standard take-off setting which is 30 or 40 degrees. After all, the take-off was perfectly normal other than the jet was unpressurized.
At some point thereafter they were dropped to 15 degrees per Cooper's request, not to mention the gear stayed down and the airstairs were lowered.
As I've read through the 727-100 Flight Manual it strikes me as apparent that Cooper was intimately familiar with the jet and its flap settings and limitations. In other words, the 15 degree order wasn't an arbitrary order.
This further convinces me that Cooper knew a lot about the 727. Moreover, that any credible suspect has to explain how he came by this unique knowledge.
One other interesting thing, I noted that the 727 had an emergency flashlight attached near the rear bulkhead door. I'm curious as to whether this flashlight was still on the jet when it arrived in Reno. Cooper, regardless of who he was, would have benefited from the use of a flashlight to help him spot his night landing.
727 had an emergency flashlight
Never heard this mentioned before. Bruce? Snowmman?
Flap settings: returned 85 posts at Dropzone posts under that title, here - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=search_results&search_forum=all&search_string=flap%20settings&sb=score&mh=25
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The rotating beacon is an anti-collision light. it's used on the ground during push backs and taxi's...
you will notice all vehicles on the ground will have flashing beacons...no different than cops or using your flashers when on the side of the road..it draws attention.
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The flaps were set when they were at 7000 feet at the beginning of the flight. they were only at 30 degree's for a short period and switched back to 15 degree's where they stayed the remainder of the flight. if I'm correct, they switched back when they started to climb to 10,000.
40 degree flaps is like dragging a chute behind you. it would burn a massive amount of fuel....massive.
It makes sense that the flaps were in their standard take-off setting which is 30 or 40 degrees. After all, the take-off was perfectly normal other than the jet was unpressurized.
At some point thereafter they were dropped to 15 degrees per Cooper's request, not to mention the gear stayed down and the airstairs were lowered.
As I've read through the 727-100 Flight Manual it strikes me as apparent that Cooper was intimately familiar with the jet and its flap settings and limitations. In other words, the 15 degree order wasn't an arbitrary order.
This further convinces me that Cooper knew a lot about the 727. Moreover, that any credible suspect has to explain how he came by this unique knowledge.
One other interesting thing, I noted that the 727 had an emergency flashlight attached near the rear bulkhead door. I'm curious as to whether this flashlight was still on the jet when it arrived in Reno. Cooper, regardless of who he was, would have benefited from the use of a flashlight to help him spot his night landing.
Our best pilot wrote at DZ:
Farflung
Jan 7, 2010, 1:41 AM
Post #15348 of 58140 (62454 views)
Re: [georger] Fear the Gear [In reply to]
georger,
You have targeted a Cooper non-sequitur. An aircrew member would not ask for or care if the gear was down. They would know that a request for 160 knots was enough. No need for flap settings or gear operation.
Yet it is documented that Cooper did ask for the gear to be down.
An experienced aviator would not care. Would an experienced jumper? Or has the 'lore' of Cooper's request become part of the skydiving lexicon? Would any skydiver care about the disposition of the gear; to include if it fell off the airframe? My guess (just a guess) is no.
Does this simple request for the gear to be down betray anything else?
Farflung"
If Im reading Far correctly, he is saying this is all BS! Any talk of gear up gear down, flaps to 15, 50, or 724 ... is all supersequious nonsense ... to the cockpit pilots! Experienced pilots in this situation faced with an obnoxious hijacker who was full of wisdom and technical instructions ... would simply grin and say "OK, Roger Pilot. Roger Veronka! He must have the manual back there!" and go about their own business asap. Therefore Farflung asks: "Does this simple request for the gear to be down betray anything else?" One possible answer is: 'Cooper was FOS!' But they complied anyway, grinning?
Maybe members of Bruce Smith's (and FLYJACK's) brand new "Cooper College of Minds" has a better answer, based on knowledge above and beyond anything mere mortals here have! Now doubt they are discussing this point on their newly minted "Cooper College of Minds" website - somewhere out there in the maldum fornax where Earthlings are not allowed to go! ?
:rofl:
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As everyone knows the flaps will cause drag..it's the same for anything coming out of the plane such as the gear. it will slow the plane down but Cooper could of easily told them what speed to fly without having to give specific directions how to achieve a certain speed. the gear would be minimal.
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As everyone knows the flaps will cause drag..it's the same for anything coming out of the plane such as the gear. it will slow the plane down but Cooper could of easily told them what speed to fly without having to give specific directions how to achieve a certain speed. the gear would be minimal.
I think that was Farflung's point. Cooper is being redundant - projecting an image ? In fact as we know, based on the Transcript, Cooper's final request was non-technical just before jumping - if you accept the 8:13 jump window.
This "technical crap" has overwhelmed this case. 90% of this technical crap has fallen on this case from outsiders posting at forums. [The new Cooper College of Minds, socalled.] If Cooper's actual technical knowledge was limited and simply given to create a pose, like the bomb?, then as Farflung suggests the technical stuff may be irrelevant to a correct profile of the real Cooper. I think that has to be taken seriously. That could very easily include the tie.
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I've always thought it would of been rather easy to get this information. he probably could walk right into a hanger and ask.
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In 1971 the tie wouldn't be a threat evidence wise. I think he left it knowing they couldn't really do anything with it. even today it still doesn't get us any closer.
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I've always thought it would of been rather easy to get this information. he probably could walk right into a hanger and ask.
Put yourself in the position of the crew - what do you do? Whose instructions do you follow? The people on the grodund even forgot to send the knapsack! :congrats: I find that almost hilarious.
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The crew did what Cooper asked. the same would of been if he said go no faster than 170
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The crew did what Cooper asked. the same would of been if he said to go no faster than 170 knots.
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In 1971 the ties wouldn't be a threat evidence wise. I think he left it knowing they couldn't really do anything with it. even today it still doesn't get us any closer.
I tend to disagree. I think a forensic anthropologist or criminalist with a good lab would disagree. This was the era in which criminal lab analysis was coming into its own ... demanding raises in budgets. Although dna analysis was not fully perfected serologic testing was developing daily by leaps and bounds. I know - I was there! Computer analysis and sharing was coming into its own. If Cooper had any idea he would outrun lab analysis, he was making a huge gamble. He might have been counting more on agencies to make clerical errors and dump or lose actual evidence!
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This would give him insurance on the speed by giving his configurations...
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The crew did what Cooper asked. the same would of been if he said to go no faster than 170 knots.
According to the Transcript his last instruction is merely: 'slow and stabilize the plane'. That isnt very technical!
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The crew did what Cooper asked. the same would of been if he said to go no faster than 170 knots.
According to the Transcript his last instruction is merely: 'slow and stabilize the plane'. That isnt very technical!
where is that mentioned, not the radio transcripts?
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The crew did what Cooper asked. the same would of been if he said to go no faster than 170 knots.
According to the Transcript his last instruction is merely: 'slow and stabilize the plane'. That isnt very technical!
where is that mentioned, not the radio transcripts?
I will find it and post it -
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I always took Cooper to have been a poser. Cooper was very specific when he didn't have to be. If I had to guess, I'd say he data mined a pilot or two a few days before the hijacking for specs and remembered them for the occasion.
There was a guy mentioned in the Geoffrey Gray 302s who pretended to be a screenwriter and was asking the pilots of a California flight how to drop something from an airplane with a beacon in it and retrieve it later. They reported it to the FBI after Norjack.
I can tell you that Chevrolet made V-8 small block engines in 267, 283, 327, 350, 383 and 400 cubic inch varieties, but I couldn't fix one to save my life. I memorized it all to serve a purpose - to sound cool in study hall when surrounded by gearheads and girls with big hair.
Poser. That's my guess.
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I always took Cooper to have been a poser. Cooper was very specific when he didn't have to be. If I had to guess, I'd say he data mined a pilot or two a few days before the hijacking for specs and remembered them for the occasion.
There was a guy mentioned in the Geoffrey Gray 302s who pretended to be a screenwriter and was asking the pilots of a California flight how to drop something from an airplane with a beacon in it and retrieve it later. They reported it to the FBI after Norjack.
I can tell you that Chevrolet made V-8 small block engines in 267, 283, 327, 350, 383 and 400 cubic inch varieties, but I couldn't fix one to save my life. I memorized it all to serve a purpose - to sound cool in study hall when surrounded by gearheads and girls with big hair.
Poser. That's my guess.
Thats a nice post! specially the last part!! Chuckling... :rofl:
Let's see: I had my nerd-physics pose, my sports jock pose, my country guy pose, my hot rod pose, my cycle pose, my family pose, my rich kid pose, my poor kid pose, church pose, Superintendent grandson's pose, ... the list goes on! I love it.
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The crew did what Cooper asked. the same would of been if he said to go no faster than 170 knots.
According to the Transcript his last instruction is merely: 'slow and stabilize the plane'. That isnt very technical!
where is that mentioned, not the radio transcripts?
well you are right - it is not in the Transcript as originally thought. I guess its in one of the other interviews or something. Or maybe Im dreaming it at this point! This is becoming very tedious with a lot to keep track of.
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The crew did what Cooper asked. the same would of been if he said to go no faster than 170 knots.
According to the Transcript his last instruction is merely: 'slow and stabilize the plane'. That isnt very technical!
where is that mentioned, not the radio transcripts?
well you are right - it is not in the Transcript as originally thought. I guess its in one of the other interviews or something. Or maybe Im dreaming it at this point! This is becoming very tedious with a lot to keep track of.
I do recall Rataczak saying something like that when the plane was at 7,000 when the stairs first came down (partially) and was one of the reason's he went to 30 degree's. then they realized it was burning a lot of fuel and switched back to 15.
perhaps it's in that article when Skipped talked to him?
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At approx. 7:36 the plane takes off. at around 7:40 the flaps are set at 30 degree's. at 7:48 they begin to climb out of the 7,000 hold to 10,000 and switch to 15 degree's.
The troubling factor R99 always pointed out was the 7:40 mark. the plane travels 14 DME miles in 4 minutes and then reports 19 miles DME in 3 minutes. I could never match the first report at 7:40. Hominid always told me not to worry about the 7:40 mark and make the 19 DME mark. the crew never made any statements whether or not that they took off and left the configuration AT 15 degree's and wheels down or took off as normal with wheels up and less flap and more speed. that's the only way they Could get to the first mark of 14 DME by going faster than Cooper requested. they do report "slowing down to about 155" this tells me they did a possible normal takeoff.
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I was able to conclude that the flight path given could be flown the way they present it, to some extent. the timing is off between lake Merwin and crossing the Columbia. some of the minute marks are not accurate. the turn is odd at the 8:16 location on the map. it's a hard bank in order to get back onto V-23. I'm not really sure why they did some of the turns in this area.
I also tried R99's theory and concluded that the timing was off when trying to go straight down from the Malay intersection and passing Tina bar slightly to the west. Robert told me the takeoff time must be wrong. I disagree with that conclusion as well.
Hominid put me through a lot of testing to determine whether or not the simulator was accurate enough to use. we tested timing, winds, altitudes, speeds and even test flap settings while in flight. the difference with wheels up and down. the simulator passed.
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This was an old test video when I first started the project. it's the first 4 minutes of the flight. I did a rookie mistake of forgetting to pull back on the throttle from 100% thrust. the engines over heat and start shutting down. it happens right at the end of the 4 minutes..
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SBXNRuLls0
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As I've considered how DBC came to be familiar with Yuma, AZ I have theorized that he may have been in the Marines given that the Marines have an air station there.
However, I also learned that Boeing has flight tested commercial aircraft there for decades. I have been unable to verify when this all started. Nonetheless, I have been able to verify at a minimum that the 727 was tested, in part, at Edwards Air Force Base which is not too far away.
I believe that DBC's Yuma inquiry/statement is telling and may well point to a Marine or Boeing employee. After all, I maintain that relatively few people have heard of Yuma and know where it is located.
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Before the FBI came into existence, crooks used to head for the state line where the coppers chasing them had no jurisdiction. Since Yuma is directly on a border with Mexico, where he was asking to go, he may have scouted it out ahead of time.
Or perhaps he just looked it up after seeing the well-known film 3:10 to Yuma, released by Columbia pictures a decade earlier, or heard the re-release of it's title song 3:10 to Yuma in 1967. I don't think it's accurate to say that few people had heard of Yuma.
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While we wait on Georger and Tom Kaye to produce some scientific results regarding the Tina Bar money, where can we go from here?
I think at this point we'll get a conclusive answer to the Tina Bar find, the money arrived via dredge in August of 1974.
Is there anymore analysis we can do with the McCrone results from the tie? Are there experiments we can do to help explain how the money go to the dredge location?
Is there anything we can do on the flight path? Or have we dried up all possible investigatory avenues?
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While we wait on Georger and Tom Kaye to produce some scientific results regarding the Tina Bar money, where can we go from here?
I think at this point we'll get a conclusive answer to the Tina Bar find, the money arrived via dredge in August of 1974.
Is there anymore analysis we can do with the McCrone results from the tie? Are there experiments we can do to help explain how the money go to the dredge location?
Is there anything we can do on the flight path? Or have we dried up all possible investigatory avenues?
Dave has a pretty good short on dredge pumps and the dredging as you enter this site. Just find and follow the links ..
Dont expect any results from Tom or me any time soon. There is much to do ...
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I'm curious what aspects of the case people are currently working on, I'll start:
I'm currently:
--working through the Dan Cooper comics to see if it's reasonable that DB Cooper might have been a fan
--Reviewing every parachuting anecdote from WWII I can find, looking for a confirmed no-pull
--Reading through a collection of True magazines from the 50's and 60's to get an idea of what Max Gunther's Dan Leclair might have been like based on this reading habit.
There are a few things I'd like to do, for one thing observe the Washougal river during spring flooding and see just how much debris gets moved downstream. Second, I'd like to throw a few canvas sacks with ten kilos of paper in them and see how they move on the bottom of the Columbia river.
The one thing I would like the forum to accomplish is to help shutter finish his flight simulation of the FBI flight path and publish the results somewhere.
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Everyone is busy focusing on a sketch of DB and relying on physical description provided by multiple witnesses who clearly do not agree with each other on DB physical description. The mind plays ticks on us and its been proven over and over again but we still go back to rely on a specific description to eliminate suspects. For example, The Infamous Unabomber Sketch on the front cover of the Times Magazine comes to mind. In 1985 a witness got a 3 second glimpse of the Unabomber who left a bomb in computer store parking lot. The next day she spent a few hours with a sketch artist who created a sketch of the Unabomber. Well in 1995 the FBI meet the eye witness from the 1985 sighting and get a new sketch made and it is the infamous sketch seen on Time Magazine on April 25, 1995. However that sketch was actually the witness describing the original sketch artist she spent a few hours with in 1985 and not of the actual unabomber. Even though she was adimant her memory was intact and it was of the unabomber it was later realized she was actually describing the sketch artist. THE MIND PLAYS TRICKS ON US.
Also a more recent case of alledged bank robber in Denver Colorado named Steven Talley. Look up his case. He looks exactly like the man in the bank survillence video and was charged with 2 bank robberies. He professed his innocence dispite having a "doppelganger" caught on surveillance video.However his flimsy alibi (my speculation but if there was more concrete alibi evdience it would of been reported) (one robbery he has a time stamped phone call from his job making a telemarketing call to one customer, and the 2nd robbery he checked in at a food bank at the same time of robbery) evidence in both cases could not be rebutted and the bank teller in the 2nd bank robbery testifed that Steven Talley WAS NOT the same man who robbed the bank and they had the wrong guy. If the FBI can be wrong about a suspect based off actual video video OR in my opinion (he was the bank robber) the teller couldnt even ID the guy who robbered her when she was in court How can anyone eliminate a DB suspect on physical evidence that we all know is inconsistent.
So its hard not to laugh when someone says "Kenny" was only 5'9 and Cooper was 5'10 or Mccoy had protruding ears or Rackstraw was too young or Sheridan had blue eyes and balding.
Besides my theory and I can only claim as my own speculation is that the Cooper description from the multiple witnesses is basically a blend of a few men on board. That is where we get inconsitency about if he was first to board or last or he had his glasses on the whole time or just part of the time or brown or black suit and so on. Please move away from physical description to eliminate a suspect and focus on other things. just had to share.
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Actually, the witnesses who knew who Cooper was (the stews) had very similar descriptions. it's the passengers all over the board because they had to recall someone they had no clue was a hijacker. I tend to go by the description vs the sketch.
Typically, bank robberies, and everyday crimes last seconds to minutes and the witnesses are in shock. this case is entirely different from typical crimes. the crew spent hours with Cooper. the passengers did as well but had no clue what was going on and didn't need a reason to recall Cooper.
The stews were trained for things like this. that doesn't mean they wasn't scared but have a bit of an edge over the passengers with descriptions. it's really hard to make someone 5' 8" 6 feet tall. one of the passengers never seen Cooper standing..
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I could ask you when coming out of a store what people looked like in the line you were in and it will probably be off. now, how good of a description do you think you would get being held hostage for several hours. just sitting there watching the suspect? a step further I would wonder what the description would be if you got out of the the store prior to the hold up and the guy was right behind you?
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Sketches can be off, but not always. I watched a program on the Golden State Killer the other day and some of those early sketches were spot on. So I wouldn't put a lot of weight on the sketch, but I wouldn't just assume it isn't accurate either. As Shutter said, the three stews descriptions were pretty close and I'd put a lot of weight on those. Some suspects, and Kenny is a fine example of this, can be eliminated based on several different things.
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Sketches can be off, but not always. I watched a program on the Golden State Killer the other day and some of those early sketches were spot on. So I wouldn't put a lot of weight on the sketch, but I wouldn't just assume it isn't accurate either. As Shutter said, the three stews descriptions were pretty close and I'd put a lot of weight on those. Some suspects, and Kenny is a fine example of this, can be eliminated based on several different things.
As usual, I am full of questions!
1, Did anyone see Cooper through a plane window from the outside of the plane?
2. Did the official who went on the plane wanting to talk to Cooper get a glimpse of him?
3. Any witness reports from people waiting to board the plane with Cooper?
4. NWA counter descriptions where Cooper got the ticket?
5. Any tv footage of Cooper, even a glimpse?
6. Anyone get a glimpse of Cooper through their rifle scopes?
7. Were any security cameras filming the parking lot or inside the airport?
8. How large were his hands - any description of his hands/finger nails?
9. (nobody reported large ears in proportion to his head)
10. . . .
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All good questions.
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All good questions.
11. Did he ever take off his coat?
12. Did he put on the parachute over his coat? How does that work?
13. When Tina saw him tying a container 'around his waste' was that 'under his coat or over his coat'? How did that work?
. . .
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As per question number 13, I also wonder if he was seen unbuttoning his shirt? Is it possible he secured the money inside his shirt just in case the package came open? If he then rebuttoned his shirt and tucked it back into his pants it would provide a means of containing any bundles of money that might come loose during the jump? This also might explain why he took off his tie. Any thoughts on this?
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As per question number 13, I also wonder if he was seen unbuttoning his shirt? Is it possible he secured the money inside his shirt just in case the package came open? If he then rebuttoned his shirt and tucked it back into his pants it would provide a means of containing any bundles of money that might come loose during the jump? This also might explain why he took off his tie. Any thoughts on this?
or money in his socks, underwear, and elsewhere. A 'roll' of money in addition to packets, bundles, lids, straps, bricks, 'tinas', trays, and shores, nickles, baggies, and thumbs ....
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Couldn't he just tighten his belt? Also curious as to question number 8 concerning the size of his hands. Could you explain your thoughts behind this line of questioning? Do you think it would give some insight into his life? Did Tina ever comment on what his hands looked like? I think it is a good question.
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As per question number 13, I also wonder if he was seen unbuttoning his shirt? Is it possible he secured the money inside his shirt just in case the package came open? If he then rebuttoned his shirt and tucked it back into his pants it would provide a means of containing any bundles of money that might come loose during the jump? This also might explain why he took off his tie. Any thoughts on this?
Haggar-interesting thought about putting the money in his shirt. It might not be so far fetched. Maybe the bundle he tried to give Tina went into his shirt instead of the pockets of his coat. It's out of the box thinking, and maybe no crazier than any other theory out there. It made me think about the money bag and how much it weighed and how much room it had. Flyjack could probably comment more on the exact weight of a bundle/pack. Did Cooper try to re-balance the load? Did he run out of space in the bag? A few packets probably would not make a difference, but it gets me thinking back to the point of what a 20 pound bag would do to a jumper in free fall. I'm of the opinion he left the tie as a f**k you to someone. The man, management, the system, whatever.
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Couldn't he just tighten his belt? Also curious as to question number 8 concerning the size of his hands. Could you explain your thoughts behind this line of questioning? Do you think it would give some insight into his life? Did Tina ever comment on what his hands looked like? I think it is a good question.
All of the above ... his occupation, lifestyle, . . . also medical and anatomical related.
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As per question number 13, I also wonder if he was seen unbuttoning his shirt? Is it possible he secured the money inside his shirt just in case the package came open? If he then rebuttoned his shirt and tucked it back into his pants it would provide a means of containing any bundles of money that might come loose during the jump? This also might explain why he took off his tie. Any thoughts on this?
Haggar-interesting thought about putting the money in his shirt. It might not be so far fetched. Maybe the bundle he tried to give Tina went into his shirt instead of the pockets of his coat. It's out of the box thinking, and maybe no crazier than any other theory out there. It made me think about the money bag and how much it weighed and how much room it had. Flyjack could probably comment more on the exact weight of a bundle/pack. Did Cooper try to re-balance the load? Did he run out of space in the bag? A few packets probably would not make a difference, but it gets me thinking back to the point of what a 20 pound bag would do to a jumper in free fall. I'm of the opinion he left the tie as a f**k you to someone. The man, management, the system, whatever.
Tina said he put the bundle offered her back into the bag. Tina never reported him storing money anywhere other than in the containers he was trying out.
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As per question number 13, I also wonder if he was seen unbuttoning his shirt? Is it possible he secured the money inside his shirt just in case the package came open? If he then rebuttoned his shirt and tucked it back into his pants it would provide a means of containing any bundles of money that might come loose during the jump? This also might explain why he took off his tie. Any thoughts on this?
Haggar-interesting thought about putting the money in his shirt. It might not be so far fetched. Maybe the bundle he tried to give Tina went into his shirt instead of the pockets of his coat. It's out of the box thinking, and maybe no crazier than any other theory out there. It made me think about the money bag and how much it weighed and how much room it had. Flyjack could probably comment more on the exact weight of a bundle/pack. Did Cooper try to re-balance the load? Did he run out of space in the bag? A few packets probably would not make a difference, but it gets me thinking back to the point of what a 20 pound bag would do to a jumper in free fall. I'm of the opinion he left the tie as a f**k you to someone. The man, management, the system, whatever.
Tom Kaye worked on the money story .......... long before Flyjack even surfaced in 2010, left DZ then came back in 2018 to Shutter's forum for some reason, to promote his suspect. Jo Weber still says "Flyjack" is someone who introduced himself to her in 2010 as "Flyjax/Bulljax". Both said they were Canadians.
The only thing Flyjack has proven is that different people used different terms for the money, at different times. We already knew that from written and other testimony from all kinds of people! SA Carr finally found the bank person who did the actual packaging of the bills for delivery to the FBI (for Cooper). Tom Kaye also researched this and confirmed what Carr was saying. Flyjack surfaces in 2018 saying "Carr was wrong", and by extension "Kaye is wrong", "Georger is a liar", 'the Ingrams were wrong' ... and only Flyjack/Bulljax is correct! :rofl:
We know that Cooper or somebody failed to get his request for a "KNAPSACK" included in his original demands. Cooper complained about this omission and immediately set about trying to fashion some kind of container to contain the money for his jump. All of the stews gave testimony describing Cooper trying out of different containers until at length Tina advises the cockpit crew that the last she saw was 'he has placed the money bundles back in the original bank bag container, tied rope around the neck of the container, and was tying this rope around his waste. Eric Ulis says from his 'expert' analysis this would have left the bank bag vulnerable to being lost during a jump. So" in addition to Flyjack we now have 'expert' analysis from two experts, Ulis and Flyjack. Or is it "Flyjax" of "Bulljax" according to another case expert: Jo Weber?
The bank people involved in this matter were very clear in their testimony about how and why the bills given to Cooper were bundled and banded with rubber bands, in the manner that happened. This included a bank security person at SeaFirst who said that 'paper straps with identifying bank logos' were never used in packaging money in extortion cases, for obvious reasons. And that the counts of bills in any bundle were always "random". In other words there were security procedures most banks followed in packaging money in extortion cases - including at SeaFirst. And that bundles of bills were simply banded together using rubber banks - no paper straps of any kind used. Then Larry Carr actually found the bank worker who had actually packaged the money for delivery to Cooper, and he confirmed that he did exactly what the SeaFirst security officer had said was done. Tom Kaye did his own research confirming all of this - see Kaye's website.
Flyjack shows up and says everyone is wrong or lying (or both) in this mater, based on his "word analysis" examining various words found in documents of Cooper case testimony!
Take your choice! :rofl:
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I buy the rubber bands version.
As to which container Cooper used to carry the money I don't know for sure.
I DO know, having made a DC 9 jump, that given the choice, I'd use a reserve container rather than a standard bank bag. So would any experienced jumper. Easier to get multipoint attachment using cut suspension lines. Bank bags (I own a Seafirst canvas bank bag) don't have good attachment points other than compressing the top or a corner and trying to cinch some line onto crumpled canvas.
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1. Cooper’s ransom measured 11” X 12” X 6.5” which means it occupied a minimum of 858 cubic inches.
2. Cooper’s ransom was delivered in an open-top, white canvas bank bag. This bag was 14” X 28” because the ransom would not fit into any of the three smaller versions.
3. The bank bag, when stretched to its maximum volume, measured approximately 8.5” in diameter.
4. The 14” X 28” bank bag allowed for a maximum volume of approximately 1360 cubic inches.
5. The ransom, when delivered to Cooper, filled the bank bag to within at least 8” from the top.
6. The bank bag when filled with the ransom provided for a maximum of 4” of material that could be utilized to cinch and close the top.
Considering the six points above, witness testimony from Tina Mucklow stating she saw Cooper putting packets of cash into one of the reserves, and the fact that the dummy reserve was not onboard the jet when it landed in Reno, it appears obvious to me that he (Cooper) used the dummy reserve to package some of the $2,000 packets so that he could properly secure the top of the bank bag.
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I thought TIna stated that the last time she saw Cooper he was putting the money back into the bank bag? How much time was there between then and when he was thought to have jumped? Would he have had time to switch the money from the bank bag to the reserve? Would the reserve hold all the money? Do you think he used both the bank bag and the reserve as containers to hold the money? Would strapping both to your body be too bulky to make a jump? Curious as to how the weight and bulk would affect the jump? Wouldn't this be a concern with the possibility of landing in water? 377? I would also go with the rubber bands.
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ANY landing at night in deep water would likely be fatal, regardless of what was strapped to you. So much can go wrong, including canopy entanglement, inability to get out of the harness, etc. I met a skydiver who, like me, had done the obligatory water jumps required for certain USPA licenses. He ejected from a Navy aircraft and thought with all his skydiving experience he would do just fine. NOPE. Damn near drowned and that's with a raft, LPU and other aids attached to him. He got hopelessly tangled up in his canopy and couldn't see or reach his floatation aids.
Asymmetrical external attachments can cause instabilities including spins and tumbles at freefall speeds. Not an issue if you pulled on the stairs.
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As far as pulling on the stairs, was this a widely known technique at the time of the hijacking?
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I thought TIna stated that the last time she saw Cooper he was putting the money back into the bank bag? How much time was there between then and when he was thought to have jumped? Would he have had time to switch the money from the bank bag to the reserve? Would the reserve hold all the money? Do you think he used both the bank bag and the reserve as containers to hold the money? Would strapping both to your body be too bulky to make a jump? Curious as to how the weight and bulk would affect the jump? Wouldn't this be a concern with the possibility of landing in water? 377? I would also go with the rubber bands.
Read the PI Transcript.
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1. Cooper’s ransom measured 11” X 12” X 6.5” which means it occupied a minimum of 858 cubic inches.
2. Cooper’s ransom was delivered in an open-top, white canvas bank bag. This bag was 14” X 28” because the ransom would not fit into any of the three smaller versions.
3. The bank bag, when stretched to its maximum volume, measured approximately 8.5” in diameter.
4. The 14” X 28” bank bag allowed for a maximum volume of approximately 1360 cubic inches.
5. The ransom, when delivered to Cooper, filled the bank bag to within at least 8” from the top.
6. The bank bag when filled with the ransom provided for a maximum of 4” of material that could be utilized to cinch and close the top.
Considering the six points above, witness testimony from Tina Mucklow stating she saw Cooper putting packets of cash into one of the reserves, and the fact that the dummy reserve was not onboard the jet when it landed in Reno, it appears obvious to me that he (Cooper) used the dummy reserve to package some of the $2,000 packets so that he could properly secure the top of the bank bag.
Cooper was last seen tying the bank bag around his waste. That's in the testimony. His next communication is at 8:05. He jumps a short time later. So ... he gets undressed, puts money from the bank bag back into the dummy reserve he had tried and rejected once before, is on the interphone at 8:05, oscillations begin around 8:10, and he jumps. All because its obvious to you that he (Cooper) used it (the dummy reserve) to package (repackage) some of the $2,000 packets (or bundles or straps or lids) so that he could properly secure (to NIST standards) the top of the bank bag.
It is exceedingly IMPORTANT that this be OBVIOUS to people! It's obvious being obvious was uppermost in Cooper's mind :chr2:
What is obvious is that the TAG team screwed up! They should have tested everything and jumped with a bank bag tied around its neck, tied around waste, ....... so we would know today if it works or not. You could conduct your own test, and somebody will repeat your test, and so on .... for another Cooper Media Moment?
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What is obvious to some is not 'obvious' to others. This is one reason why it is important to stick to the 'evidence' at hand and not stray too far. Thinking out of the box is not 'making things up'!
The passages describing Cooper packing the money occur in a number of places. When put together they describe a consistent whole. Cooper himself explained 'why' he was doing what he was doing, 'what' he did, and the records provide when he did it. That is what is "obvious". These passages together provide a consistent comprehensive story of what happened and why it happened as it did. There is no need to assume or guess or substitute anything. 'What I would do' or 'what is obvious', or 'what is a better story', is irrelevant when you already have the evidence speaking for itself. No need to invent anything.
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Sketches can be off, but not always. I watched a program on the Golden State Killer the other day and some of those early sketches were spot on. So I wouldn't put a lot of weight on the sketch, but I wouldn't just assume it isn't accurate either. As Shutter said, the three stews descriptions were pretty close and I'd put a lot of weight on those. Some suspects, and Kenny is a fine example of this, can be eliminated based on several different things.
I'm in agreement with Parrotheadvol and Shutter on the three stews and their descriptions generally matching. A positive ID from Flo, Tina, Alice, or maybe Bill Mitchell would be crucial. I'm not optimistic on even getting them to look at photos, and even if they did, if they would remember. There was a reference to the Golden State Killer and the profile a little earlier, as well as someone only seeing the Unabomber for a few seconds. It made me think of the Unabomber profile and an article I read in a San Francisco paper recently.
"What surprised investigators most was Kaczynski's background as a mathematician. According to the FBI profile, the Unabomber had attended college or trade school but had not graduated."
If the witness descriptions or the profile are off, then it is easy to be looking in the wrong places or at the wrong people in a case, Cooper included.
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Sketches can be off, but not always. I watched a program on the Golden State Killer the other day and some of those early sketches were spot on. So I wouldn't put a lot of weight on the sketch, but I wouldn't just assume it isn't accurate either. As Shutter said, the three stews descriptions were pretty close and I'd put a lot of weight on those. Some suspects, and Kenny is a fine example of this, can be eliminated based on several different things.
I'm in agreement with Parrotheadvol and Shutter on the three stews and their descriptions generally matching. A positive ID from Flo, Tina, Alice, or maybe Bill Mitchell would be crucial. I'm not optimistic on even getting them to look at photos, and even if they did, if they would remember. There was a reference to the Golden State Killer and the profile a little earlier, as well as someone only seeing the Unabomber for a few seconds. It made me think of the Unabomber profile and an article I read in a San Francisco paper recently.
"What surprised investigators most was Kaczynski's background as a mathematician. According to the FBI profile, the Unabomber had attended college or trade school but had not graduated."
If the witness descriptions or the profile are off, then it is easy to be looking in the wrong places or at the wrong people in a case, Cooper included.
That was early profile speculations. Have you seen the Netflix docu on the Unabomber? It reveals the emergence of the Unabomber profile quite well - and the status of the Behavioral Science Division that developed it - and the internal FBI politics that went along with it.
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Sketches can be off, but not always. I watched a program on the Golden State Killer the other day and some of those early sketches were spot on. So I wouldn't put a lot of weight on the sketch, but I wouldn't just assume it isn't accurate either. As Shutter said, the three stews descriptions were pretty close and I'd put a lot of weight on those. Some suspects, and Kenny is a fine example of this, can be eliminated based on several different things.
I'm in agreement with Parrotheadvol and Shutter on the three stews and their descriptions generally matching. A positive ID from Flo, Tina, Alice, or maybe Bill Mitchell would be crucial. I'm not optimistic on even getting them to look at photos, and even if they did, if they would remember. There was a reference to the Golden State Killer and the profile a little earlier, as well as someone only seeing the Unabomber for a few seconds. It made me think of the Unabomber profile and an article I read in a San Francisco paper recently.
"What surprised investigators most was Kaczynski's background as a mathematician. According to the FBI profile, the Unabomber had attended college or trade school but had not graduated."
If the witness descriptions or the profile are off, then it is easy to be looking in the wrong places or at the wrong people in a case, Cooper included.
I know people who worked on the Kaczynski case. I shared college courses with one of them. The passage you quote above comes from an early profile for the Unabomber, before the profiler that nailed Kaczynski got involved. A reevaluation of Kaczynsk had already begun when Kaczynsk mailed his Manifesto. The manifesto changed everything. Comparison of scripts from several sources lead the last profiler to surmise that the Unabomber was probably from the Midwest and the Chicago area specifically. When the Manifesto arrived it changed everything fairly rapidly. Two things were apparent: the writer was well educated and the writer had been published before. And the profiler was even able to correctly guess what areas of the country (and academia) the Unabomber had spent time in (probably lived in). They didnt have a person or a name yet, but eventually Kaczynsk's family member surfaced and provided that during a telephone conversation. Kaczynsk's brother then surfaced and provided details and where Ted Kaczynski could be located in Montana.
Kaczynsk's situation in Montana had almost run its course, as a separate matter. He was suspected of local crimes and was being investigated where he lived. His arrest was eminent from several directions including Federal crimes, when the FBI and Federal agents stepped in to arrange an arrest at his cabin for being the Unabomber ... and as I have written previously, several people wondered if Kaczynski had been DB Cooper. That was explored and discounted.
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Sketches can be off, but not always. I watched a program on the Golden State Killer the other day and some of those early sketches were spot on. So I wouldn't put a lot of weight on the sketch, but I wouldn't just assume it isn't accurate either. As Shutter said, the three stews descriptions were pretty close and I'd put a lot of weight on those. Some suspects, and Kenny is a fine example of this, can be eliminated based on several different things.
I'm in agreement with Parrotheadvol and Shutter on the three stews and their descriptions generally matching. A positive ID from Flo, Tina, Alice, or maybe Bill Mitchell would be crucial. I'm not optimistic on even getting them to look at photos, and even if they did, if they would remember. There was a reference to the Golden State Killer and the profile a little earlier, as well as someone only seeing the Unabomber for a few seconds. It made me think of the Unabomber profile and an article I read in a San Francisco paper recently.
"What surprised investigators most was Kaczynski's background as a mathematician. According to the FBI profile, the Unabomber had attended college or trade school but had not graduated."
If the witness descriptions or the profile are off, then it is easy to be looking in the wrong places or at the wrong people in a case, Cooper included.
That was early profile speculations. Have you seen the Netflix docu on the Unabomber? It reveals the emergence of the Unabomber profile quite well - and the status of the Behavioral Science Division that developed it - and the internal FBI politics that went along with it.
I dont know that there even was a "Behavioral Science Division" as such when the Unabomber case started? It was the work and techniques developed by Agent James Fitzgerald and the people he brought in to work with him, some of those were academicians, that lead to the formation of a concept called the 'ideolect' managed by a Behavioral Science Division, or whatever term was applied to that. I went to college with one of these people. Sometimes its a small world and things come full circle. They certainly did in this case! Today, some of the methods and techniques developed clear back in the 1940s-1960's are used today as standard measurement protocols.
One of the historical foundations for these techniques began with psychologist Carl Emil Seashore, founder of an Ed Psych Measurement program in the Midwest who devised measurement tests for the military during WWII. I was born in that family of psychologists, mathematicians, and educators and grew up watching tests being devised and discussed at home on our dinning room table ... until the late hours of the morning ..... debates over statistical significance ... debates over scoring machines ... debates over random probability and the Bell curve ... and can I have a dog and chicken and go swimming at the lake tomorrow? .... I hated school, and tests, and everything regimented ... but eventually I succumbed! :chr2:
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Sketches can be off, but not always. I watched a program on the Golden State Killer the other day and some of those early sketches were spot on. So I wouldn't put a lot of weight on the sketch, but I wouldn't just assume it isn't accurate either. As Shutter said, the three stews descriptions were pretty close and I'd put a lot of weight on those. Some suspects, and Kenny is a fine example of this, can be eliminated based on several different things.
I'm in agreement with Parrotheadvol and Shutter on the three stews and their descriptions generally matching. A positive ID from Flo, Tina, Alice, or maybe Bill Mitchell would be crucial. I'm not optimistic on even getting them to look at photos, and even if they did, if they would remember. There was a reference to the Golden State Killer and the profile a little earlier, as well as someone only seeing the Unabomber for a few seconds. It made me think of the Unabomber profile and an article I read in a San Francisco paper recently.
"What surprised investigators most was Kaczynski's background as a mathematician. According to the FBI profile, the Unabomber had attended college or trade school but had not graduated."
If the witness descriptions or the profile are off, then it is easy to be looking in the wrong places or at the wrong people in a case, Cooper included.
That was early profile speculations. Have you seen the Netflix docu on the Unabomber? It reveals the emergence of the Unabomber profile quite well - and the status of the Behavioral Science Division that developed it - and the internal FBI politics that went along with it.
I think I did see the Netflix show on Unabomber. There have been a few through the years. My impression is that if it were not for the manifesto and an alert brother, then Ted Kaczynski may not have been found. I was not aware of what Georger mentioned about him being looked at for other crimes. Bruce, you have mentioned in the past about Cooper possibly being in a group that is known for its ability to hold secrets, the Mafia, gypsies, special ops. Ted Kaczynski was a loner, so he may very well have stayed a free man if it weren't for the manifesto and his brother. I don't see Cooper being as much of a recluse as Kaczynksi, so I do wonder what group that he was part of that could keep a secret. Could he have kept the whole thing to himself? Possibly, but unlikely. How do you pull something off like that to make a statement and not tell a soul?
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... I don't see Cooper being as much of a recluse as Kaczynksi, so I do wonder what group that he was part of that could keep a secret. Could he have kept the whole thing to himself? Possibly, but unlikely. How do you pull something off like that to make a statement and not tell a soul?
Ah, Kimo Sabe, who among us can keep a secret? Not me at all! But there are lots of people who can. Certainly Kenny Christiansen did - about a lot of his life. We still don't know what he did to make all of his extra moolah, since stealing airplanes doesn't really look like his cup o' tea.
But the more meaningful question is what kinds of groups can hold a communal secret? Covert ops guys can. There is another Netflix docu ("Team 396," I think) on the Special Forces Teams that went into Afghanistan to join with the Northern Alliance to topple the Taliban regime. I found it very telling how they all lived together in military housing, socialized with each other, the wives and kids all knew each other and knew the risks of spilling the beans in terms of putting the guys at risk - so everyone was locked into the code of silence.
The CIA is another example of how large numbers of people can keep LOTS of secrets. I had an uncle that I now believe was a spook in Russia during the Khrushchev era. Further, I had a girlfriend in college that I now believe was the daughter of a CIA field operative in the Congo and Africa during the 1960s. Little stories that they told me back in the day don't add up, now, but then they did.
Maybe DB Cooper went back to his family, and if anyone asked, "Hey we missed you on Thanksgiving! Where were you?" he could shut them down by simply saying, "I was on a job." There are plenty of people who would know to not ask any more questions, and don't.
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Has the profile of Cooper changed over time? How does law enforcement's early profile of Cooper compare with a present day profile?
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As far as groups of people keeping secrets, I believe fear of retribution from other members of the group could be a major motivation for keeping a secret(s).
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As far as groups of people keeping secrets, I believe fear of retribution from other members of the group could be a major motivation for keeping a secret(s).
Hagger knew? What did Hagger know, and when did he know it?
Who is Hagger?
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Sketches can be off, but not always. I watched a program on the Golden State Killer the other day and some of those early sketches were spot on. So I wouldn't put a lot of weight on the sketch, but I wouldn't just assume it isn't accurate either. As Shutter said, the three stews descriptions were pretty close and I'd put a lot of weight on those. Some suspects, and Kenny is a fine example of this, can be eliminated based on several different things.
I'm in agreement with Parrotheadvol and Shutter on the three stews and their descriptions generally matching. A positive ID from Flo, Tina, Alice, or maybe Bill Mitchell would be crucial. I'm not optimistic on even getting them to look at photos, and even if they did, if they would remember. There was a reference to the Golden State Killer and the profile a little earlier, as well as someone only seeing the Unabomber for a few seconds. It made me think of the Unabomber profile and an article I read in a San Francisco paper recently.
"What surprised investigators most was Kaczynski's background as a mathematician. According to the FBI profile, the Unabomber had attended college or trade school but had not graduated."
If the witness descriptions or the profile are off, then it is easy to be looking in the wrong places or at the wrong people in a case, Cooper included.
That was early profile speculations. Have you seen the Netflix docu on the Unabomber? It reveals the emergence of the Unabomber profile quite well - and the status of the Behavioral Science Division that developed it - and the internal FBI politics that went along with it.
I think I did see the Netflix show on Unabomber. There have been a few through the years. My impression is that if it were not for the manifesto and an alert brother, then Ted Kaczynski may not have been found. I was not aware of what Georger mentioned about him being looked at for other crimes. Bruce, you have mentioned in the past about Cooper possibly being in a group that is known for its ability to hold secrets, the Mafia, gypsies, special ops. Ted Kaczynski was a loner, so he may very well have stayed a free man if it weren't for the manifesto and his brother. I don't see Cooper being as much of a recluse as Kaczynksi, so I do wonder what group that he was part of that could keep a secret. Could he have kept the whole thing to himself? Possibly, but unlikely. How do you pull something off like that to make a statement and not tell a soul?
The FACTS tell another story!
Kaczynksi was an active guy with an active agenda. Beside his bombs being made, mailed, or delivered after long bus rides, Ted was active in his own back yard from the humble abode of his cabin! Sabotage against the rail and airline industry and those who worked in that industry. Sabotage against the forestry people and anyone in official authority in his own area. People's dogs being poisoned, fires set mysteriously, people's machinery being damaged, boulders pushed down onto railroad tracks or other acts of rail sabotage to cause a derailment. Ted didnt much care as long as he wasnt caught... with tracks in the snow leading back to his cabin.
One look inside his cabin for any reason and the jig would have been up! Ted just could not help from stirring up trouble everywhere he was - it was his nature. Ted was a ticking time bomb of his own self-destruction. If the FBI did not find him first, he was going to find them - one way or another.
Ted was just begging for attention, his whole life long!
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Please believe me Georger when I say I harbor no hard feelings towards you or anyone else on this forum. That being said I must state that me being the naive person that I am, I am not sure if you are asking me a legitimate question(s) or just being sarcastic? Either way please excuse my ignorance. Just for the record, I would gladly try to answer almost any question asked of me.
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Has the profile of Cooper changed over time? How does law enforcement's early profile of Cooper compare with a present day profile?
The short answer is, "Yes." The profile of DB Cooper has changed over time. That said, there are fractions within the FBI that see DB Cooper in different ways, so their "profiles" are not in agreement. In fact, I don't know of any definitive "profile" that has been developed. But we have the following:
1. Early on, Himmelsbach acknowledged that Cooper had guts and had the upper-hand for using a bomb. He saw Coop as a smart guy, but still called him a sleazy, rotten crook, although he has never described WHY he saw Cooper in those ways.
2. Some commentators, such as Walter Cronkite, described DB Cooper as a "master criminal."
3. Many FBI agents thought DBC was a professional skydiver and felt he would be found in the annals of the US Parachutist Association. Earl Cossey dispelled them of that notion, and that might have been the starting point of the drift towards viewing DB Cooper as a bumbling fool who was just smart enough to get himself killed.
4. That was the prevailing view of Larry Carr in the 2008-2010 era. The jump was too tough, he posed, and DBC died. Cossey added all the necessary plausible technical aspects to support that narrative.
5. However, when Cossey's reputation started going down the toilet in 2011 when GG's SKYJACK came out and our follow-up investigation of Norman Hayden and the parachutes, the FBI backed away from the tumbling, bumbling frostbitten fool who cratered. Curtis Eng certainly never gave his perspective on who DB Cooper might be, and held his tongue until 2016 when he wrapped up the case with Frank Montoya, Jr., who is now a talking head for MSNBC, btw...
6. That said, LD Cooper was described as the "most promising suspect" in 2011 when Marla walked through the door with an FBI imprimatur stamped on her Uncle LD dossier. However, the term "most promising suspect" was uttered by Ayn Dietrich-Williams. That suggests that LD looked pretty good for DBC in internal discussion up on 3rd Ave in Seattle, but that moniker never got pushed publicly once Ayn spilled the beans to journalist Alex Hannaford in June, 2011. Simply, no one has ever said WHY LD Cooper was so promising. Hence, many of us figured something else was in the works beyond LD's capacities to steal an airplane.
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As for who is Haggar, and what did he know, what I know of Haggarknew is that he is a fellow who lived in the Vancouver area and knew of a guy nearby in Fruit Valley, WA named "Haggar," who was rumored to be DB Cooper by locals.
Do I kind of get that right, Haggarknew?
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Not exactly Bruce, although I appreciate the effort. I apologize for the confusion. I will try to briefly explain. My name is actually Dana and I have lived in northwest Ohio my entire life. I became friends with a man named Hager. His name sounded like Haggar and I would fondly call him Haggar the Horrible after the comic strip. I met him sometime in the very early 2000's and quickly became very good friends. We had much in common such as a liking for sports, interest in native American history, construction type work, hunting, and nature conservation as well as other things. At the time of meeting Haggar I had absolutely no knowledge of D.B.Cooper or the hijacking case.(I would have been 9 years old at the time it happened) It soon became apparent that Haggar knew an abundance of information pertaining to the case. Early on in our friendship I helped Haggar do some work on his house(in Ohio). I guess he felt he owed me something in return(although I knew he was short on cash and told him ahead of time that I didn't expect payment for the work involved). After completing the work Hag apologized for not having cash to pay me. He stated that although he couldn't pay me with money he could tell me who D.B.Cooper was. I had to go home and do some research on it just to know what he was talking about. It didn't take long to get pulled into the vortex. After asking Hag how he knew so much about the case I found out that he had lived in that area of the country from around 1960 until around 1990. At least for part of that time he lived in the southern part of the state of Washington. Between his work and hunting and such he was extremely knowledgeable of the lay of the land. Haggar told me he had originally met the man (he identified as D.B.Cooper) through his work.(Hag thought it might have been around 1968 or so) Eventually they somewhat became friendly and hung out at the bars and such along with other friends. Haggar said this man's name (aka D.B.Cooper) was Chuck Dooley. At least that is how it's pronounced. Hag wasn't sure how the name was spelled. Obviously there is tons more to the hijacking story as far as who all was involved and the extent of their involvement, as well as Hag's role in all this. I really wish Hager was still around to help me tell his story unfortunately Hag passed away in March of 2007. Before he passed I asked why he had told me the story(he had previously told me that I was the only person he had ever shared it with). He stated that Chuck had gotten away with it for long enough and that he(Hag) didn't want the story to die with him. To be honest there was a 7 year stretch of time when I really thought I wouldn't ever tell anyone the story. Hag passed very suddenly and it took me a long time to get over it but after hearing about the tie and Tom Kay getting ready to do testing on it I realized I needed to get Chuck Dooley's name out there before somebody stole Hag's thunder. I am pretty sure there are people out there that are upset with me due to my past indiscretions on this forum (I was an idiot, I'll fully admit it). That being said you have to give me some credence as I did say that D.B. was an engineer type even before Tom Kaye released the findings from the second round of tests on the tie. Anyway I hope this explains a little bit of who I am and who Hag was and also how I got involved in all of this. If you have questions about any of this or if I haven't fully answered previous questions or if you would like to hear more of the story of the hijacking according to what Hag shared with me please feel free to ask. As far as that goes if you prefer that I just shut up and not post anything I would understand that as well. I apologize for being so long winded.
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Not exactly Bruce, although I appreciate the effort. I apologize for the confusion. I will try to briefly explain. My name is actually Dana and I have lived in northwest Ohio my entire life. I became friends with a man named Hager. His name sounded like Haggar and I would fondly call him Haggar the Horrible after the comic strip. I met him sometime in the very early 2000's and quickly became very good friends. We had much in common such as a liking for sports, interest in native American history, construction type work, hunting, and nature conservation as well as other things. At the time of meeting Haggar I had absolutely no knowledge of D.B.Cooper or the hijacking case.(I would have been 9 years old at the time it happened) It soon became apparent that Haggar knew an abundance of information pertaining to the case. Early on in our friendship I helped Haggar do some work on his house(in Ohio). I guess he felt he owed me something in return(although I knew he was short on cash and told him ahead of time that I didn't expect payment for the work involved). After completing the work Hag apologized for not having cash to pay me. He stated that although he couldn't pay me with money he could tell me who D.B.Cooper was. I had to go home and do some research on it just to know what he was talking about. It didn't take long to get pulled into the vortex. After asking Hag how he knew so much about the case I found out that he had lived in that area of the country from around 1960 until around 1990. At least for part of that time he lived in the southern part of the state of Washington. Between his work and hunting and such he was extremely knowledgeable of the lay of the land. Haggar told me he had originally met the man (he identified as D.B.Cooper) through his work.(Hag thought it might have been around 1968 or so) Eventually they somewhat became friendly and hung out at the bars and such along with other friends. Haggar said this man's name (aka D.B.Cooper) was Chuck Dooley. At least that is how it's pronounced. Hag wasn't sure how the name was spelled. Obviously there is tons more to the hijacking story as far as who all was involved and the extent of their involvement, as well as Hag's role in all this. I really wish Hager was still around to help me tell his story unfortunately Hag passed away in March of 2007. Before he passed I asked why he had told me the story(he had previously told me that I was the only person he had ever shared it with). He stated that Chuck had gotten away with it for long enough and that he(Hag) didn't want the story to die with him. To be honest there was a 7 year stretch of time when I really thought I wouldn't ever tell anyone the story. Hag passed very suddenly and it took me a long time to get over it but after hearing about the tie and Tom Kay getting ready to do testing on it I realized I needed to get Chuck Dooley's name out there before somebody stole Hag's thunder. I am pretty sure there are people out there that are upset with me due to my past indiscretions on this forum (I was an idiot, I'll fully admit it). That being said you have to give me some credence as I did say that D.B. was an engineer type even before Tom Kaye released the findings from the second round of tests on the tie. Anyway I hope this explains a little bit of who I am and who Hag was and also how I got involved in all of this. If you have questions about any of this or if I haven't fully answered previous questions or if you would like to hear more of the story of the hijacking according to what Hag shared with me please feel free to ask. As far as that goes if you prefer that I just shut up and not post anything I would understand that as well. I apologize for being so long winded.
Good grief! Well welcome to the forum - Dana. That is one helluva a story and I dont doubt for a minute its true. So... maybe HAGGAR DID KNOW something! Thank you for this explanation. Chuck Dooley. He should be added to the list and checked out. Have we heard that name before somehow?
In any event Dana, I appreciate your coming forth with this. Im glad I asked! Let's find out what Hagger thought he knew. :chr2:
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Has the profile of Cooper changed over time? How does law enforcement's early profile of Cooper compare with a present day profile?
The short answer is, "Yes." The profile of DB Cooper has changed over time. That said, there are fractions within the FBI that see DB Cooper in different ways, so their "profiles" are not in agreement. In fact, I don't know of any definitive "profile" that has been developed. But we have the following:
1. Early on, Himmelsbach acknowledged that Cooper had guts and had the upper-hand for using a bomb. He saw Coop as a smart guy, but still called him a sleazy, rotten crook, although he has never described WHY he saw Cooper in those ways.
2. Some commentators, such as Walter Cronkite, described DB Cooper as a "master criminal."
3. Many FBI agents thought DBC was a professional skydiver and felt he would be found in the annals of the US Parachutist Association. Earl Cossey dispelled them of that notion, and that might have been the starting point of the drift towards viewing DB Cooper as a bumbling fool who was just smart enough to get himself killed.
4. That was the prevailing view of Larry Carr in the 2008-2010 era. The jump was too tough, he posed, and DBC died. Cossey added all the necessary plausible technical aspects to support that narrative.
5. However, when Cossey's reputation started going down the toilet in 2011 when GG's SKYJACK came out and our follow-up investigation of Norman Hayden and the parachutes, the FBI backed away from the tumbling, bumbling frostbitten fool who cratered. Curtis Eng certainly never gave his perspective on who DB Cooper might be, and held his tongue until 2016 when he wrapped up the case with Frank Montoya, Jr., who is now a talking head for MSNBC, btw...
6. That said, LD Cooper was described as the "most promising suspect" in 2011 when Marla walked through the door with an FBI imprimatur stamped on her Uncle LD dossier. However, the term "most promising suspect" was uttered by Ayn Dietrich-Williams. That suggests that LD looked pretty good for DBC in internal discussion up on 3rd Ave in Seattle, but that moniker never got pushed publicly once Ayn spilled the beans to journalist Alex Hannaford in June, 2011. Simply, no one has ever said WHY LD Cooper was so promising. Hence, many of us figured something else was in the works beyond LD's capacities to steal an airplane.
Well, what you are describing falls more in the category of opinions and opinion swapping (or opinion shifting with every change in social currents and circumstances) as opposed to real profiling, which is in fact a fairly rigorous process as it has come to evolve to the present day.
The archetype for 'profiling; is what what Fitzgerald and his colleagues did in the Unabomber case. Modern profiling starts with building a body of facts and then trying to connect them. I already mentioned the historical roots starting with Carl Seashore. One of the next people in the chain of people and theory which lead to modern profiling would be Dr. Leonard Bloomfield (a linguist, psychologist, sociologist) who created something he could teach called 'Componential Analysis". Fitzgerald and his helpers used 'comp analysis', literally. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Bloomfield .
When you can perform 'comp analysis' with actual case data then you can claim you are profiling.
The theory behind comp analysis is that people carry social and linguistic markers which are fairly stable throughout life. If you recall I objected to Carr saying that Cooper had no accent. Those words of course are not what Carr was trying to say, or meant. Carr didnt have the technical language to explain what he meant. Carr's (and Tina's) reference was to phonology. And as Leonard Bloomfield taught, phonology is very specific to individual people and small classes of people on this earth! If there was a recording of DB Cooper we should be able to nail Cooper's phonology down to a section of the world, and then a smaller area within that! That is what 'comp analysis" is all about and what it does. That is what profiling does! Himm's opinions are not profiling. Profiling is an actual analytical process. It is what Fitzgerald became competent at doing (with the help of academically trained people) and what he did in his attempt to identify the Unabomber. If we had enough data the same thing could be done for DB Cooper ... or the new suspect named 'Chuck Dooley' ?
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Thank you Georger, I appreciate it. To my knowledge I am the only one who has ever mentioned the name Chuck Dooley as a D.
B.Cooper suspect.
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Thank you Georger, I appreciate it. To my knowledge I am the only one who has ever mentioned the name Chuck Dooley as a D.
B.Cooper suspect.
You are very welcome Dana. Dana Im glad I asked and kind of pressed this. Thanks!! ;)
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So, tell us MORE, Dana.
Is Chuck Dooley still alive? Where might he be? How can we research him?
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I am not sure if he is still alive today. I do believe he was still alive when Hag passed.(early 2007) I believe this to be true because Hag warned me to be careful and cautious as it pertained to Dooley. He said he was a very dangerous person. Hag thought Dooley attended the University of Minnesota during the mid 1950s. For what it's worth Hag also thought that at one time Dooley (while at the university) had a roomate that was a 7 footer who played on the university's basketball team. When I asked Hag how that would help find Dooley he stated "well how many goddamn 7 footers played basketball at the University of Minnesota during the 1950s". Hag also did say that him and Dooley were on a pool league team that won a major tournament. I think he called it a city wide all league pool tournament. It was held in Portland,Oregon. They had their pictures in one of the local newspapers. Hag made it sound like it was a pretty big deal. Maybe there is a record or copy of that picture somewhere in that newspaper's archives. Not sure if this info will help or not Bruce.
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Has the profile of Cooper changed over time? How does law enforcement's early profile of Cooper compare with a present day profile?
The short answer is, "Yes." The profile of DB Cooper has changed over time. That said, there are fractions within the FBI that see DB Cooper in different ways, so their "profiles" are not in agreement. In fact, I don't know of any definitive "profile" that has been developed. But we have the following:
1. Early on, Himmelsbach acknowledged that Cooper had guts and had the upper-hand for using a bomb. He saw Coop as a smart guy, but still called him a sleazy, rotten crook, although he has never described WHY he saw Cooper in those ways.
2. Some commentators, such as Walter Cronkite, described DB Cooper as a "master criminal."
3. Many FBI agents thought DBC was a professional skydiver and felt he would be found in the annals of the US Parachutist Association. Earl Cossey dispelled them of that notion, and that might have been the starting point of the drift towards viewing DB Cooper as a bumbling fool who was just smart enough to get himself killed.
4. That was the prevailing view of Larry Carr in the 2008-2010 era. The jump was too tough, he posed, and DBC died. Cossey added all the necessary plausible technical aspects to support that narrative.
5. However, when Cossey's reputation started going down the toilet in 2011 when GG's SKYJACK came out and our follow-up investigation of Norman Hayden and the parachutes, the FBI backed away from the tumbling, bumbling frostbitten fool who cratered. Curtis Eng certainly never gave his perspective on who DB Cooper might be, and held his tongue until 2016 when he wrapped up the case with Frank Montoya, Jr., who is now a talking head for MSNBC, btw...
6. That said, LD Cooper was described as the "most promising suspect" in 2011 when Marla walked through the door with an FBI imprimatur stamped on her Uncle LD dossier. However, the term "most promising suspect" was uttered by Ayn Dietrich-Williams. That suggests that LD looked pretty good for DBC in internal discussion up on 3rd Ave in Seattle, but that moniker never got pushed publicly once Ayn spilled the beans to journalist Alex Hannaford in June, 2011. Simply, no one has ever said WHY LD Cooper was so promising. Hence, many of us figured something else was in the works beyond LD's capacities to steal an airplane.
Well, what you are describing falls more in the category of opinions and opinion swapping (or opinion shifting with every change in social currents and circumstances) as opposed to real profiling, which is in fact a fairly rigorous process as it has come to evolve to the present day.
The archetype for 'profiling; is what what Fitzgerald and his colleagues did in the Unabomber case. Modern profiling starts with building a body of facts and then trying to connect them. I already mentioned the historical roots starting with Carl Seashore. One of the next people in the chain of people and theory which lead to modern profiling would be Dr. Leonard Bloomfield (a linguist, psychologist, sociologist) who created something he could teach called 'Componential Analysis". Fitzgerald and his helpers used 'comp analysis', literally. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Bloomfield .
When you can perform 'comp analysis' with actual case data then you can claim you are profiling.
The theory behind comp analysis is that people carry social and linguistic markers which are fairly stable throughout life. If you recall I objected to Carr saying that Cooper had no accent. Those words of course are not what Carr was trying to say, or meant. Carr didnt have the technical language to explain what he meant. Carr's (and Tina's) reference was to phonology. And as Leonard Bloomfield taught, phonology is very specific to individual people and small classes of people on this earth! If there was a recording of DB Cooper we should be able to nail Cooper's phonology down to a section of the world, and then a smaller area within that! That is what 'comp analysis" is all about and what it does. That is what profiling does! Himm's opinions are not profiling. Profiling is an actual analytical process. It is what Fitzgerald became competent at doing (with the help of academically trained people) and what he did in his attempt to identify the Unabomber. If we had enough data the same thing could be done for DB Cooper ... or the new suspect named 'Chuck Dooley' ?
Who has no accent or no linguistic markers? Actors, newscasters, people that are trained to not have an accent. Tina spent over 4 hours with Cooper and what do we have from that? Not much.
1. Did the FBI record their interviews with her and just summarize on the 302's, maybe used a stenographer?
2. Could she have said more about his speech and mannerisms and it just did not make it into the 302?
3. What if Cooper did have linguistic markers? Could he have been from Philadelphia like Tina, and his accent did not seem like an accent? She was living in Minnesota for a bit, could he have had a Minnesoat accent and she did not pick up on it? Did his use of words not seem odd to her? Think trash can/garbage can, soda/pop/Coke, sub/hoagie/grinder, etc.
4. Do people tell you that you have an accent, yes they do, but only if you are not from their area, or you moved away and came back to visit and now you have a new accent.
Tina speaks at about 1:30 in the below clip. There are other interviews of her out there too. She has an accent, but I can't place it. Point being, almost everyone speaks with some sort of accent, but if you're used to them, you don't always pick up on the accent because it is normal everyday speech for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksxyp4s6AXY
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everyone has a "accent"..including Cooper. I think it was Tina who said he could be from the midwest....
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Has the profile of Cooper changed over time? How does law enforcement's early profile of Cooper compare with a present day profile?
The short answer is, "Yes." The profile of DB Cooper has changed over time. That said, there are fractions within the FBI that see DB Cooper in different ways, so their "profiles" are not in agreement. In fact, I don't know of any definitive "profile" that has been developed. But we have the following:
1. Early on, Himmelsbach acknowledged that Cooper had guts and had the upper-hand for using a bomb. He saw Coop as a smart guy, but still called him a sleazy, rotten crook, although he has never described WHY he saw Cooper in those ways.
2. Some commentators, such as Walter Cronkite, described DB Cooper as a "master criminal."
3. Many FBI agents thought DBC was a professional skydiver and felt he would be found in the annals of the US Parachutist Association. Earl Cossey dispelled them of that notion, and that might have been the starting point of the drift towards viewing DB Cooper as a bumbling fool who was just smart enough to get himself killed.
4. That was the prevailing view of Larry Carr in the 2008-2010 era. The jump was too tough, he posed, and DBC died. Cossey added all the necessary plausible technical aspects to support that narrative.
5. However, when Cossey's reputation started going down the toilet in 2011 when GG's SKYJACK came out and our follow-up investigation of Norman Hayden and the parachutes, the FBI backed away from the tumbling, bumbling frostbitten fool who cratered. Curtis Eng certainly never gave his perspective on who DB Cooper might be, and held his tongue until 2016 when he wrapped up the case with Frank Montoya, Jr., who is now a talking head for MSNBC, btw...
6. That said, LD Cooper was described as the "most promising suspect" in 2011 when Marla walked through the door with an FBI imprimatur stamped on her Uncle LD dossier. However, the term "most promising suspect" was uttered by Ayn Dietrich-Williams. That suggests that LD looked pretty good for DBC in internal discussion up on 3rd Ave in Seattle, but that moniker never got pushed publicly once Ayn spilled the beans to journalist Alex Hannaford in June, 2011. Simply, no one has ever said WHY LD Cooper was so promising. Hence, many of us figured something else was in the works beyond LD's capacities to steal an airplane.
Well, what you are describing falls more in the category of opinions and opinion swapping (or opinion shifting with every change in social currents and circumstances) as opposed to real profiling, which is in fact a fairly rigorous process as it has come to evolve to the present day.
The archetype for 'profiling; is what what Fitzgerald and his colleagues did in the Unabomber case. Modern profiling starts with building a body of facts and then trying to connect them. I already mentioned the historical roots starting with Carl Seashore. One of the next people in the chain of people and theory which lead to modern profiling would be Dr. Leonard Bloomfield (a linguist, psychologist, sociologist) who created something he could teach called 'Componential Analysis". Fitzgerald and his helpers used 'comp analysis', literally. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Bloomfield .
When you can perform 'comp analysis' with actual case data then you can claim you are profiling.
The theory behind comp analysis is that people carry social and linguistic markers which are fairly stable throughout life. If you recall I objected to Carr saying that Cooper had no accent. Those words of course are not what Carr was trying to say, or meant. Carr didnt have the technical language to explain what he meant. Carr's (and Tina's) reference was to phonology. And as Leonard Bloomfield taught, phonology is very specific to individual people and small classes of people on this earth! If there was a recording of DB Cooper we should be able to nail Cooper's phonology down to a section of the world, and then a smaller area within that! That is what 'comp analysis" is all about and what it does. That is what profiling does! Himm's opinions are not profiling. Profiling is an actual analytical process. It is what Fitzgerald became competent at doing (with the help of academically trained people) and what he did in his attempt to identify the Unabomber. If we had enough data the same thing could be done for DB Cooper ... or the new suspect named 'Chuck Dooley' ?
Who has no accent or no linguistic markers? Actors, newscasters, people that are trained to not have an accent. Tina spent over 4 hours with Cooper and what do we have from that? Not much.
1. Did the FBI record their interviews with her and just summarize on the 302's, maybe used a stenographer?
2. Could she have said more about his speech and mannerisms and it just did not make it into the 302?
3. What if Cooper did have linguistic markers? Could he have been from Philadelphia like Tina, and his accent did not seem like an accent? She was living in Minnesota for a bit, could he have had a Minnesoat accent and she did not pick up on it? Did his use of words not seem odd to her? Think trash can/garbage can, soda/pop/Coke, sub/hoagie/grinder, etc.
4. Do people tell you that you have an accent, yes they do, but only if you are not from their area, or you moved away and came back to visit and now you have a new accent.
Tina speaks at about 1:30 in the below clip. There are other interviews of her out there too. She has an accent, but I can't place it. Point being, almost everyone speaks with some sort of accent, but if you're used to them, you don't always pick up on the accent because it is normal everyday speech for you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksxyp4s6AXY
So far as I know the crew did not work with a linguist to clarify this matter. They could have - practically every major university had a linguistics/anthro/speech path department with technical staff and a lab at the time. So did all major intelligence services in the government ad military.
The crew would have been hearing Cooper through their own linguistic filters; Tina and Flo in particular. Flo did say she thought Cooper was of Latin descent and I wonder if there was something linguistic she thought she heard? Tina said Midwestern but of course her natural filters are Minnesotan and Philadelphia. So far as Tina is concerned DB's phonology, grammar, and any standard phrases he repeated would fall within Tina's 'Midwestern range' experience, however that is defined. A linguist working with the girls would have tried to define exactly what their standard filters were, or were not (and that would be easy to do). There is nothing to indicate the FBI spent any time investigating these matters, with Tina or Flo. So, once again we are left to making suppositions without any hard data.
Imagine having some detailed linguistics data about Cooper AND having Tom's particle list also! That would define time-based search areas.
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Anybody want to search for a Chuck Dooley in the U of M archives?
http://umedia.lib.umn.edu/taxonomy/term/819 (http://umedia.lib.umn.edu/taxonomy/term/819)
The U has every yearbook archived. So far, there is not a Chuck Dooley (or similar name) in the 1953 yearbook... 1956 checked... 1958... 1957... 1955... 1954... There, that was all the years the U had a "notably" tall player. If Chuck Dooley was at the U, he didn't make it to become a senior, or make the yearbook at any rate.
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"Tall" Players at the U of M in the 50's:
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/william-simonovich-1.html (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/william-simonovich-1.html)
Played 1953-1956, was 6-10
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/dave-griffin-1.html (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/dave-griffin-1.html)
Played 56-59, was 6-8
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/warren-jeppesen-1.html (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/warren-jeppesen-1.html)
Played 56-59, was 6-8
And FWIW, here are my father's stats from the USAF (Note, it only has two years worth of stats, but he he did have playing time in three seasons)
https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/marty-andrade-1.html (https://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/players/marty-andrade-1.html)
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Very good discussion today! A hi point in Cooper forum posts! :chr2:
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Don't forget Coop's iconic:
1. "No funny stuff."
2. "Let's get the show on the road."
Nor his simple formality:
1. "Miss, I think you need to look at that note."
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Don't forget Coop's iconic:
1. "No funny stuff."
2. "Let's get the show on the road."
Nor his simple formality:
1. "Miss, I think you need to look at that note."
Those are in the data pile. Grow the pile! :chr2:
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As per the pile... Wasn't it actually "no funny stuff or I'll do the job" ? I wanted to add that because that phrase always struck me as odd. It may be nothing but it almost sounds like something out of a movie. Or maybe something an experienced criminal would say?
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Sounds about right, HK.
BTW, these were favorite phrases of Barb Dayton, according to Ron Forman, who frequently reminds me...
So, maybe they are idiosyncratic to certain kinds of guys, occupations, locales? Barb grew up as Bob in central California. Worked ranching, ships, welding, auto repair, merchant marine.
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As per the pile... Wasn't it actually "no funny stuff or I'll do the job" ? I wanted to add that because that phrase always struck me as odd. It may be nothing but it almost sounds like something out of a movie. Or maybe something an experienced criminal would say?
maybe from an old Jimmy Cagney movie? ;)
There are people who specialise in the 'etiology' or origins of idioms and phrases. Like 'get the show on the road'.
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It has been mentioned/rumoured that Cooper had a scar on his hand, info that the FBI has held back..
Does anybody have any source for this?
Tosaw or Himmelsbach's book?
Are you referring to a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx?
Anyone ever hear from Prospector? He references a scar on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx. That's a pretty specific comment. Should records show someday that Cooper did in fact have this, I'd be curious to know how he guessed this.
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It has been mentioned/rumoured that Cooper had a scar on his hand, info that the FBI has held back..
Does anybody have any source for this?
Tosaw or Himmelsbach's book?
Are you referring to a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx?
Anyone ever hear from Prospector? He references a scar on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx. That's a pretty specific comment. Should records show someday that Cooper did in fact have this, I'd be curious to know how he guessed this.
Could you phytsicians translate this for the rest of us common folks?
middle finger distal phalanx. ? what is that!?
What is distal phalanx of the finger?
The thumb and large toe do not possess a middle phalanx. The distal phalanges are the bones at the tips of the fingers or toes. The proximal, intermediate, and distal phalanges articulate with one another through interphalangeal articulations. Most common injury is the hammer or mallet blow to the tip of the finger while holding an object such a nails or shingles.
Phalanx bone - Wikipedia
Carr said Cooper had no scars, tatoos, impediments, and no accents on his finger osteoids parallaxus febriules dominici astrum soeli? But it was a Wednesday!
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Sounds like manufactured evidence....Jo Weber 101
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Just heard from Jo today. I am always glad to hear from her as she always describes rapidly declining health. She has been on deaths doorstep for decades now. More "last concerts" than Barbra Streisand. Glad she is still alive and spunky as ever.
I made a couple of jumps last Saturday over Byron CA. Warm sunny day but quite cold at 15,000 ft where I exited, 12 degrees F. My 51st year in skydiving. How did I get so old so fast?
On April 27th the DZ at Byron CA will host an "ash dive" where the cremated remains of Perry Stevens will be released in a freefall formation. Perry was my first jump instructor in 1968 and, as a Master Rigger, kept my old surplus gear safe for years. He also packed Richard McCoy's chutes and was known by McCoy. He did a LOT for the sport. Invented a safety feature (reserve static line) that has saved hundreds of lives and is still in use today. He decided against patenting it as he wanted it widely adopted ASAP with minimal extra expense, bless his heart.
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Blessings and thanks to Perry Stevens for his unconditional support of the sport.
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So far as I know the crew did not work with a linguist to clarify this matter. They could have - practically every major university had a linguistics/anthro/speech path department with technical staff and a lab at the time. So did all major intelligence services in the government ad military.
The crew would have been hearing Cooper through their own linguistic filters; Tina and Flo in particular. Flo did say she thought Cooper was of Latin descent and I wonder if there was something linguistic she thought she heard? Tina said Midwestern but of course her natural filters are Minnesotan and Philadelphia. So far as Tina is concerned DB's phonology, grammar, and any standard phrases he repeated would fall within Tina's 'Midwestern range' experience, however that is defined. A linguist working with the girls would have tried to define exactly what their standard filters were, or were not (and that would be easy to do). There is nothing to indicate the FBI spent any time investigating these matters, with Tina or Flo. So, once again we are left to making suppositions without any hard data.
Imagine having some detailed linguistics data about Cooper AND having Tom's particle list also! That would define time-based search areas.
Although I cannot say for certain that being a stewardess 50 years ago was not a lesson in accents, I can tell you that at age 20 the list if identifiable North American Regional accents for any American I have known can be summed up as 1) Bugs Bunny, 2) Foghorn Leghorn, 3) everybody else. If Mel Blanc didn't do the accent, you weren't learning it.
Sure, if you encountered a Southerner, you knew it. Sure, if you encountered a native of New York City, you knew it. How many 22 year olds would hear someone from Toronto and know it? How many would hear California and know it?
Further, how many travelers use their neighborhood accents versus how many speak the way they were taught in school? Would they ask for a hoagie in Portland, or would they just say "sandwich?"
I think the "no accent" lead is no lead at all except in eliminating the deep south and the rest if the former British Empire as a place where Cooper grew up. Everything else on the continent is fair game.
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Give me a call, SureLock, and tell me where I'm from. Then, I guess yours!
Email me at brucesmith AT rainierconnect Dot com and I'll give you the number. Or should I say, numbah.....
Smile.
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no particular accent, possibly from the mid west.
That is different from a "southerner" or someone from New York or even Canada. still an accent.
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Exactly.
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no particular accent, possibly from the mid west.
That is different from a "southerner" or someone from New York or even Canada. still an accent.
No particular accent is still an accent. Got it. I'll add that to Steve Buscemi's description ("just funny-lookin'...in a general kinda way) in Fargo.
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Give me a call, SureLock, and tell me where I'm from. Then, I guess yours!
Email me at brucesmith AT rainierconnect Dot com and I'll give you the number. Or should I say, numbah.....
Smile.
I could tell where you were from when you quoted the FBI of having said of Cooper: "He picked a lousy parachuuuute..." on "Case Closed." "This was REALLY top, top secret stuff!" Gave you away, too. I don't expect everybody gets it, though. Bugs Bunny is said to have a Flatbush accent, but things change in 75 years.
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My father had a true Flatbush accent, since he grew up on Avenue I and McDonald Ave, and pronounced things in the traditional manner. Hence, "motor earl," whereas I pronounce the lubricant, since I was born 25 miles to the east in the "burbs," as "motor oyal." Slightly more elite-ish, I think, or at least less working-class-ish.
You?
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Bruce: Do you know what companies manufactured the GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) and the facial recognition software used in the Travel Channel doc on DB Cooper? I want to make sure I don't buy any of their stock. Great to see you on the show. :chr2:
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The ground radar thingy was either rented, or came from storage at the production company. I'll ask them.
Thanks for the kudos, Castle. Karga 7, which filmed it for the Travel Channel, says they're sending me a copy on Monday.
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Bill Mitchell recorded his version of the hijacking for the Washington State Historical Commission. Bruce's book says there is an audio tape of it. Does anyone know where to get a copy of that, or where to find it online? Thanks.
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It was archived at the WSHM, at their COOPER EXHIBIT website. I have a link, somewhere.... and I'll go looking for it in my files if you can't access the WSHM.
There were links posted here, too, circa 2013.
Or, call Bill!
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It was archived at the WSHM, at their COOPER EXHIBIT website. I have a link, somewhere.... and I'll go looking for it in my files if you can't access the WSHM.
There were links posted here, too, circa 2013.
Or, call Bill!
most of the material is gone off there site. you can email them. they are very helpful in locating what they have.
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fcastle866:
Go ahead with the question; I’ll answer to the best of my ability given the existing circumstances. Perhaps the time has come to stir-it-up, so don’t hold back.
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Bruce: Do you know what companies manufactured the GPR (Ground Penetrating Radar) and the facial recognition software used in the Travel Channel doc on DB Cooper? I want to make sure I don't buy any of their stock. Great to see you on the show. :chr2:
Check with a university archaeology dept or State Archaeologist Office for the best LiDAR gear to buy.
All of these tools require better than average computer skills .. cost may be a factor. It might be more productive and cost effective to farm this work out to others who have the tools, experience, and computer skills to do the work.
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fcastle866:
Go ahead with the question; I’ll answer to the best of my ability given the existing circumstances. Perhaps the time has come to stir-it-up, so don’t hold back.
Prospector: Welcome back. I was referring to a question from a while back where a scar on Cooper's hand was discussed. If you go one page back on this thread, you'll see my post and Georger's. You mention a right distal phalanx. Some of us were wondering about more details on that. Here are some of the posts. Thanks.
Quote from: Prospector on September 19, 2018, 02:53:25 PM
Quote from: FLYJACK on September 19, 2018, 01:58:54 PM
It has been mentioned/rumoured that Cooper had a scar on his hand, info that the FBI has held back..
Does anybody have any source for this?
Tosaw or Himmelsbach's book?
Are you referring to a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx?
Anyone ever hear from Prospector? He references a scar on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx. That's a pretty specific comment. Should records show someday that Cooper did in fact have this, I'd be curious to know how he guessed this.
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fcastle866:
Go ahead with the question; I’ll answer to the best of my ability given the existing circumstances. Perhaps the time has come to stir-it-up, so don’t hold back.
Prospector: Welcome back. I was referring to a question from a while back where a scar on Cooper's hand was discussed. If you go one page back on this thread, you'll see my post and Georger's. You mention a right distal phalanx. Some of us were wondering about more details on that. Here are some of the posts. Thanks.
Quote from: Prospector on September 19, 2018, 02:53:25 PM
Quote from: FLYJACK on September 19, 2018, 01:58:54 PM
It has been mentioned/rumoured that Cooper had a scar on his hand, info that the FBI has held back..
Does anybody have any source for this?
Tosaw or Himmelsbach's book?
Are you referring to a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx?
Anyone ever hear from Prospector? He references a scar on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx. That's a pretty specific comment. Should records show someday that Cooper did in fact have this, I'd be curious to know how he guessed this.
You ask a very good question, not the one I hoped to address, but perhaps a good starting point for further enquiry.
First I need to share an opinion related to the publicly released statement regarding ‘no scars, marks, or tattoos’. This refers to what the witnesses observed at the time of the incident. Any number of scars, marks, or tattoos could have been created on the individual at any point in time after the witnesses observed the individual in question. Also, witnesses may have observed any number of scars, marks, or tattoos at the time, and that information is ‘held back’ by the authorities to aid in their vetting of incoming tips and/or confessions. Not a well kept secret that this is a technique employed by investigators to help resolve a file. As such, the statement is rendered invalid and irrelevant and should be dismissed in its entirety. It would be imprudent for any person who may have known an individual prior to the criminal act and/or encountered a person after the fact who matched the physical description and profile to dismiss reporting that fact based on the presence of scars, marks, or tattoos.
Specifically relating to Cooper, a careful examination of information made public contained within the series of composite sketches clearly indicates a feature on the left side of the bridge of the nose (Bing comp w/out sunglasses). An interesting enhancement of that particular feature is observed on the ABC World News Tonight – Saturday, January 14, 2017 while reporting on the case.
I did not choose to become involved in this rampant dysfunction surrounding “D B Cooper”, but have been forced into it. Due to this unfortunate twist of fortune, I have come into contact with what I now have every reason to believe is a very reliable source of information regarding Cooper. The specific mention of a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx comes from that source.
It is unfortunate that someone who is familiar with the man himself is not an active member of this discussion forum. Perhaps they could tell you about the very small feature above his right upper lip, a feature that could easily be disguised with a short moustache.
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fcastle866:
Go ahead with the question; I’ll answer to the best of my ability given the existing circumstances. Perhaps the time has come to stir-it-up, so don’t hold back.
Prospector: Welcome back. I was referring to a question from a while back where a scar on Cooper's hand was discussed. If you go one page back on this thread, you'll see my post and Georger's. You mention a right distal phalanx. Some of us were wondering about more details on that. Here are some of the posts. Thanks.
Quote from: Prospector on September 19, 2018, 02:53:25 PM
Quote from: FLYJACK on September 19, 2018, 01:58:54 PM
It has been mentioned/rumoured that Cooper had a scar on his hand, info that the FBI has held back..
Does anybody have any source for this?
Tosaw or Himmelsbach's book?
Are you referring to a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx?
Anyone ever hear from Prospector? He references a scar on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx. That's a pretty specific comment. Should records show someday that Cooper did in fact have this, I'd be curious to know how he guessed this.
You ask a very good question, not the one I hoped to address, but perhaps a good starting point for further enquiry.
First I need to share an opinion related to the publicly released statement regarding ‘no scars, marks, or tattoos’. This refers to what the witnesses observed at the time of the incident. Any number of scars, marks, or tattoos could have been created on the individual at any point in time after the witnesses observed the individual in question. Also, witnesses may have observed any number of scars, marks, or tattoos at the time, and that information is ‘held back’ by the authorities to aid in their vetting of incoming tips and/or confessions. Not a well kept secret that this is a technique employed by investigators to help resolve a file. As such, the statement is rendered invalid and irrelevant and should be dismissed in its entirety. It would be imprudent for any person who may have known an individual prior to the criminal act and/or encountered a person after the fact who matched the physical description and profile to dismiss reporting that fact based on the presence of scars, marks, or tattoos.
Specifically relating to Cooper, a careful examination of information made public contained within the series of composite sketches clearly indicates a feature on the left side of the bridge of the nose (Bing comp w/out sunglasses). An interesting enhancement of that particular feature is observed on the ABC World News Tonight – Saturday, January 14, 2017 while reporting on the case.
I did not choose to become involved in this rampant dysfunction surrounding “D B Cooper”, but have been forced into it. Due to this unfortunate twist of fortune, I have come into contact with what I now have every reason to believe is a very reliable source of information regarding Cooper. The specific mention of a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx comes from that source.
It is unfortunate that someone who is familiar with the man himself is not an active member of this discussion forum. Perhaps they could tell you about the very small feature above his right upper lip, a feature that could easily be disguised with a short moustache.
What was the question you were hoping to answer?
I agree with you on the holdback about a scar. The FBI held back the clip on tie for 35 years or so, so hiding a scar or other mark would not be out of the realm of possibility. I'm not familiar with any marks on the Bing Crosby sketch though.
You make some interesting comments.
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Dovid:
I can neither confirm nor deny. I do not have access to that specific information at this time. It would be wise not to abandon that line of inquiry.
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fcastle866:
Go ahead with the question; I’ll answer to the best of my ability given the existing circumstances. Perhaps the time has come to stir-it-up, so don’t hold back.
Prospector: Welcome back. I was referring to a question from a while back where a scar on Cooper's hand was discussed. If you go one page back on this thread, you'll see my post and Georger's. You mention a right distal phalanx. Some of us were wondering about more details on that. Here are some of the posts. Thanks.
Quote from: Prospector on September 19, 2018, 02:53:25 PM
Quote from: FLYJACK on September 19, 2018, 01:58:54 PM
It has been mentioned/rumoured that Cooper had a scar on his hand, info that the FBI has held back..
Does anybody have any source for this?
Tosaw or Himmelsbach's book?
Are you referring to a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx?
Anyone ever hear from Prospector? He references a scar on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx. That's a pretty specific comment. Should records show someday that Cooper did in fact have this, I'd be curious to know how he guessed this.
You ask a very good question, not the one I hoped to address, but perhaps a good starting point for further enquiry.
First I need to share an opinion related to the publicly released statement regarding ‘no scars, marks, or tattoos’. This refers to what the witnesses observed at the time of the incident. Any number of scars, marks, or tattoos could have been created on the individual at any point in time after the witnesses observed the individual in question. Also, witnesses may have observed any number of scars, marks, or tattoos at the time, and that information is ‘held back’ by the authorities to aid in their vetting of incoming tips and/or confessions. Not a well kept secret that this is a technique employed by investigators to help resolve a file. As such, the statement is rendered invalid and irrelevant and should be dismissed in its entirety. It would be imprudent for any person who may have known an individual prior to the criminal act and/or encountered a person after the fact who matched the physical description and profile to dismiss reporting that fact based on the presence of scars, marks, or tattoos.
Specifically relating to Cooper, a careful examination of information made public contained within the series of composite sketches clearly indicates a feature on the left side of the bridge of the nose (Bing comp w/out sunglasses). An interesting enhancement of that particular feature is observed on the ABC World News Tonight – Saturday, January 14, 2017 while reporting on the case.
I did not choose to become involved in this rampant dysfunction surrounding “D B Cooper”, but have been forced into it. Due to this unfortunate twist of fortune, I have come into contact with what I now have every reason to believe is a very reliable source of information regarding Cooper. The specific mention of a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx comes from that source.
It is unfortunate that someone who is familiar with the man himself is not an active member of this discussion forum. Perhaps they could tell you about the very small feature above his right upper lip, a feature that could easily be disguised with a short moustache.
What was the question you were hoping to answer?
I agree with you on the holdback about a scar. The FBI held back the clip on tie for 35 years or so, so hiding a scar or other mark would not be out of the realm of possibility. I'm not familiar with any marks on the Bing Crosby sketch though.
You make some interesting comments.
I trust I am at liberty to now ask you a question. My question is hypothetical, and if you choose to answer, it won’t expose you to risk.
Say for instance, your efforts led you to an individual who you conclude matches the course-filter physical description of the skyjacker. You research further and discover that person also matches the fine-filter characteristics and profile information of the skyjacker. Then through luck and skill, you are able to position yourself in such a manner that you are able to observe his reactions to stimulus that is presented to him with the intent to test for a guilty mind. As a result of your efforts, you find yourself confronted with the hard reality you have discovered an individual who matches the course and fine filter physical description and characteristics, profile information, and behavioral expectations of the fugitive. Your work was made easier because he is losing his edge due to advanced age and having to pack around such a big head for successfully outmanoeuvring the FBI for all those years.
Would you inform anyone of what you had found? If not, why not? If so, who would you inform, why would you inform, and at what point in time would you have informed them of your discovery?
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fcastle866:
Go ahead with the question; I’ll answer to the best of my ability given the existing circumstances. Perhaps the time has come to stir-it-up, so don’t hold back.
Prospector: Welcome back. I was referring to a question from a while back where a scar on Cooper's hand was discussed. If you go one page back on this thread, you'll see my post and Georger's. You mention a right distal phalanx. Some of us were wondering about more details on that. Here are some of the posts. Thanks.
Quote from: Prospector on September 19, 2018, 02:53:25 PM
Quote from: FLYJACK on September 19, 2018, 01:58:54 PM
It has been mentioned/rumoured that Cooper had a scar on his hand, info that the FBI has held back..
Does anybody have any source for this?
Tosaw or Himmelsbach's book?
Are you referring to a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx?
Anyone ever hear from Prospector? He references a scar on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx. That's a pretty specific comment. Should records show someday that Cooper did in fact have this, I'd be curious to know how he guessed this.
You ask a very good question, not the one I hoped to address, but perhaps a good starting point for further enquiry.
First I need to share an opinion related to the publicly released statement regarding ‘no scars, marks, or tattoos’. This refers to what the witnesses observed at the time of the incident. Any number of scars, marks, or tattoos could have been created on the individual at any point in time after the witnesses observed the individual in question. Also, witnesses may have observed any number of scars, marks, or tattoos at the time, and that information is ‘held back’ by the authorities to aid in their vetting of incoming tips and/or confessions. Not a well kept secret that this is a technique employed by investigators to help resolve a file. As such, the statement is rendered invalid and irrelevant and should be dismissed in its entirety. It would be imprudent for any person who may have known an individual prior to the criminal act and/or encountered a person after the fact who matched the physical description and profile to dismiss reporting that fact based on the presence of scars, marks, or tattoos.
Specifically relating to Cooper, a careful examination of information made public contained within the series of composite sketches clearly indicates a feature on the left side of the bridge of the nose (Bing comp w/out sunglasses). An interesting enhancement of that particular feature is observed on the ABC World News Tonight – Saturday, January 14, 2017 while reporting on the case.
I did not choose to become involved in this rampant dysfunction surrounding “D B Cooper”, but have been forced into it. Due to this unfortunate twist of fortune, I have come into contact with what I now have every reason to believe is a very reliable source of information regarding Cooper. The specific mention of a feature on the right hand middle finger distal phalanx comes from that source.
It is unfortunate that someone who is familiar with the man himself is not an active member of this discussion forum. Perhaps they could tell you about the very small feature above his right upper lip, a feature that could easily be disguised with a short moustache.
What was the question you were hoping to answer?
I agree with you on the holdback about a scar. The FBI held back the clip on tie for 35 years or so, so hiding a scar or other mark would not be out of the realm of possibility. I'm not familiar with any marks on the Bing Crosby sketch though.
You make some interesting comments.
I trust I am at liberty to now ask you a question. My question is hypothetical, and if you choose to answer, it won’t expose you to risk.
Say for instance, your efforts led you to an individual who you conclude matches the course-filter physical description of the skyjacker. You research further and discover that person also matches the fine-filter characteristics and profile information of the skyjacker. Then through luck and skill, you are able to position yourself in such a manner that you are able to observe his reactions to stimulus that is presented to him with the intent to test for a guilty mind. As a result of your efforts, you find yourself confronted with the hard reality you have discovered an individual who matches the course and fine filter physical description and characteristics, profile information, and behavioral expectations of the fugitive. Your work was made easier because he is losing his edge due to advanced age and having to pack around such a big head for successfully outmanoeuvring the FBI for all those years.
Would you inform anyone of what you had found? If not, why not? If so, who would you inform, why would you inform, and at what point in time would you have informed them of your discovery?
This one is for me personally, or for all of us here in Cooperland to answer? Good question. Also good to see other posts on here besides the flight path and the placard. Here's my answer:
If he was alive and I felt that he was a scumbag, then yes, I would turn him in. If he was alive and I thought he was a decent person (hijacking aside), then no, I likely would not turn in a 85-95 year old man. I'd want to hear his story. If he was dead, then things change.
What would you do? What would you do knowing that regardless of what you do, the FBI would not do anything about it? What if I told you the IRS would do something about it though?
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If I found him to be a sympathetic person I'd offer to defend him pro bono. We'd have to navigate these laws designed to prevent criminals from profiting from their story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son_of_Sam_law
I do think I could get an indictment or complaint dismissed based on the FBI's spoliation of evidence, but it's never a sure thing. If he wished to get the matter settled but avoid trial, I'd consider trying to negotiate a no jail time plea deal.
If he wanted me to make no contact with law enforcement during the remainder of his life, I'd comply.
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In his latest daily feature Ulis says: 'Cooper was ' first out of the gate so to speak in this kind of thing' - hijackings!
What!?
First out of the gate in airplane hijackings? O0 What's next? Cooper was a Mermaid? This is crazy.
Mr Ulis please read this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_hijackings
Maybe he means hijackings involving a parachute?
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The DB Cooper Trail is a good idea, whose time may have come!
This could bring lots of people into the areas where Cooper may have bailed. Who knows what might be found! Not to mention the positive recreational-financial benefits a "DB Cooper Trail" might bring.
Why didn't Mr. Blevins come up with this idea? Mr. Blevins may be all over this! The Trail might resurrect the Ariel Store!!
This will raise the bar on all DB Cooper Suspect promoters and their elaborate windbag myths. This could bring thousands of people over time, into the very areas actually needing to be searched.
:bravo:
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DB Cooper Trail is a good idea. But most successful tour "trails" have an alcohol (and now a developing Cannabis) component. Need a string of brewpubs or something similar along the Cooper path. Kentucky's Bourbon Trail has become wildly successful.
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DB Cooper Trail is a good idea. But most successful tour "trails" have an alcohol (and now a developing Cannabis) component. Need a string of brewpubs or something similar along the Cooper path. Kentucky's Bourbon Trail has become wildly successful.
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The Ariel Store ?
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Who knows, the right owner or investors could turn the Ariel Store into a gold mine if this Cooper Trail thing ignites. I think Blevins is right that there is little hope of reviving it under its current ownership and mgmt. In that climate and with no maintenance it won't take long for dry rot to render it beyond economic repair.
Sure enjoyed the DB Cooper Days party there during Geoff Gray's Portland Symposium. So glad I got to experience it and meet Dona before the store shut down.
377
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I have never studied the supposed Cooper letters, is there any evidence that any of these letters contain information that only the hijacker or the FBI could have known (i.e. "you can keep the tie") or "sorry about the mess (regarding the broken-open parachute)" or something similar?
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Yes and No, Marty.
Yes, if you believe that Wolfgang Gossett was DBC. Wolfie supposed stashed the loot in a Vancouver, BC bank, according to his chullins. Hence, the Letter from Vancouver is important in that regard.
Yes, if you follow Al Di down his very large Rabbit Hole to discovered secondary and tertiary meanings, ala Petey and Vietnam references, plus the System to Beat the System ad in Playboy, etc...
No, for most everything that most folks would consider a straightforward NORJAK reference that only Coop would know.
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I have never studied the supposed Cooper letters, is there any evidence that any of these letters contain information that only the hijacker or the FBI could have known (i.e. "you can keep the tie") or "sorry about the mess (regarding the broken-open parachute)" or something similar?
I assume most of the socalled Cooper letters are from cranks. That is one reason why LE officials are often reluctant to acknowledge them.
Kassin, a distinguished professor of psychology at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice found that people implicate themselves in important crimes, when there is something important lacking in their own lives. That includes vulnerable suspects or people who perceive they are of equal importance to actual suspects, teenagers and even adults who are processing fantasies, people with intellectual impairments or mental illness and a low self worth. These personality types are more likely to make false confessions, especially if they are under some pressure or seeking to prove themselves. Social media groups devoted to discussing particular crimes are likely to have these people join and post. Some even fantacize that solving a crime is important to their lives and self worth.
These people are often self-centered with a very low self esteem, vulnerable to suggestion, and looking for approval. Some of these people can be extremely aggressive - the smartest person in the room syndrome.
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Yes and No, Marty.
Yes, if you believe that Wolfgang Gossett was DBC. Wolfie supposed stashed the loot in a Vancouver, BC bank, according to his chullins. Hence, the Letter from Vancouver is important in that regard.
Yes, if you follow Al Di down his very large Rabbit Hole to discovered secondary and tertiary meanings, ala Petey and Vietnam references, plus the System to Beat the System ad in Playboy, etc...
No, for most everything that most folks would consider a straightforward NORJAK reference that only Coop would know.
That's a 'no' in my book.
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Do we have writing samples from Sheridan Peterson?
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I don't have one. His book annotations, which I saw but did not copy, did not look like the newspaper letter writing that some attribute to DB Cooper.
Just got back from a vacation in Spain. A three-week break from the Vortex. I have completed withdrawal but, like a hardcore junkie, have returned to stick the needle in once again.
Steel reeling from that jumpship crash in HI. I have made many jumps from that very aircraft. It was our jumpship at my home DZ at Byron CA until 2016 when it suffered a stall on jump run (pilot error) and rolled inverted into a spin. Fortunately, the jumpers managed to get out. Had they not exited, the aft of limits CG would have made spin recovery impossible. The pilot made several attempts to recover control and finally succeeded but overstressed the airframe in the pullout and ripped the right elevator and right horizontal stabilizer completely off of the aircraft. Miraculously, he was able to safely land the aircraft. I never dreamed that the twisted aircraft could be repaired and returned to service but it was. It was then ferried to HI. The ferry pilots were spooked by black smoke emerging from the instrument panel far offshore, but the problem resolved itself. The tragic crash may be unrelated to the prior major structural damage and repairs, but possible structural failure will surely be a focus of the investigation.
377
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Welcome back 377. Your postings have been missed by myself and I suspect by many others. Hope the vacation went well. I can empathize with the addiction part. At least you shouldn't have any trouble finding a needle around here. (not sure how clean it will be though)
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Thanks Haggarknew. Vacation was great. 8 days in Barcelona and 10 days cruising the Med Coast of Spain stopping in a new town every morning. wMy wife and I walked at least 5 miles every day and often more. Ran into another skydiver over there, he spotted my World Free Fall Convention baseball cap. This guy started in the late 60s, like I did, using military surplus gear. I asked him if he had any opinions about DB Cooper. He opined that Cooper was likely but not necessarily a skydiver, but he was certain that Cooper had some familiarity with aircraft, parachutes and jumping.
Is there a needle exchange in the Vortex? I'm very liberal but the coddling of heroin (and now fentanyl) addicts bothers me. What were formerly needle EXCHANGES in many areas are now just free dispensaries, you don't have to bring in a used needle to get new ones. Guess what the result is? Used needles everywhere.
377
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Welcome back, 377. I was thinking of you when I heard about the incident in Hawaii. Same exact aircraft as the one you are familiar with? Wow.
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I am curious as to where most of you hard core vortex dwellers were hanging out online in the early to mid 2000's. Was the Dropzone in existence yet? Or Sluggo's site? Hager enjoyed following many of the discussions although I don't believe he posted anything. I asked him whose posts he enjoyed the most. I believe his favorite was Mark Bennett's.(please forgive me if I misspelled your name Mr. Bennett) Hag asked me to present his story to you guys (and gals). He was very impressed by the work of the various investigators doing work on the case at that time. He believed that if the case was ever to be solved that it would be done by you guys. I am just trying to get a clearer understanding of who he meant by you guys. (remembering this was around 2005 or so)
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I came into the picture in August 2008. The DZ was in Full Tilt Boogie at that point, but I think it only started its DB Cooper thread in 2007. Jo Weber says she started it with Ckret/Larry Carr. Fact? Who knows. But Larry was posting regularly by the time I showed up and was joined by Sluggo, Snowmman, Georger, and 377. A few other posters were sharing their comments on a regular basis, but they are long-gone by now - Orange 1, Amazon, Hominid, Farflung, SafecrackingPLF, etc.
Sluggo's site was also up and running by 2008. I don't know when it started, but Sluggo said that he had been collecting facts, researching, and interviewing people for a very long time.
Galen might know more about the Ancient History of DBC online chatting. He has been following the case for decades.
For the record, the Mountain News-WA started in February 2011, and I think the DZ shut down during that year or 2012. I started posting DBC pieces on the MN in earnest by 2013, and my book first came out in 2015.
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Thanks for the reply Bruce. Hager died early in 2007. The last couple of months before his death he would show me posts from an online forum. I am curious as to what forum he was following. I regret not paying closer attention at the time. Were there discussions about the case on Sluggo's site or was his site just for viewing? I am sorry if this doesn't seem related to the case to most of you but from my perspective it is of relevance.
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Thanks for the reply Bruce. Hager died early in 2007. The last couple of months before his death he would show me posts from an online forum. I am curious as to what forum he was following. I regret not paying closer attention at the time. Were there discussions about the case on Sluggo's site or was his site just for viewing? I am sorry if this doesn't seem related to the case to most of you but from my perspective it is of relevance.
If you can post some of the names of posters on that forum I may be able to identify the forum.
Smith was a late comer -
Small Cooper forums and private Yahoo groups about the Cooper case go clear back into the 90's. Im not going to try to list them all - with a few notable exceptions, many of them were run by cranks with no knowledge whatever. A Google search might turn some of those old extinct groups up. Blevins did a search for them and found my name on several of the old ones, and harassed me about it at Dropzone later.
Jo Weber posted in a few of those old threads as she was working up her vita for presentation to Himmelsbach. You could almost see her history being formed as she tried one story out then would vanish only to appear somewhere else trying another version of her story. Years later at DZ, I finally hit her with some of her own words from early threads and she went ballistic and started calling me names, claiming she had never said what she had said earlier! But she couldnt deny her own history with the old urls still available on Google. The issue is what exactly had Duane said according to Jo, about the Cooper case. JT said he had Jo on tape saying 'he might have known who Cooper was' vs. 'I am DB Cooper'! Jo's early posts do not claim that Duane told her he was DB Cooper. Snowmman got a kick out of unraveling her 'trail of bullshit'. Bruce Smith didn't think it did any harm ... which is a commentary of another type. :rofl:
Prior to Dropzone by 2-3 years: the primary Cooper thread was at Websleuths. East Coast and West Coast (Myers & Dvorsky) were persecuting some guy (Ted Mayfield) for being DB Cooper. You can read about that on Wiki. They even got news coverage on several TV station in Washington. Snowmman was prominent at the Websleuth Cooper thread. Weber was never at Websleuths because the competition for truth and facts was too stiff. Dropzone finally opened a Cooper thread and Weber claimed responsibility for that - who knows what the truth about that was. The Websleuth thread died but still exists today, and just about everyone there moved to Dropzone. Shutter has even gone over and posted in the old Websluth thread, in the current era.
But there were three other small Cooper threads in addition to Websleuth. One thread was at a Science forum and it had real potential until a religious nut in South Dakota joined the forum and destroyed the site! There was another private Cooper thread at Yahoo Groups but it died from lack of participation and management - some say it was Sluggo who started that group? The third group was buried/closed to the public. Galen Cook is rumored to have had a private forum - maybe you should ask Bruce Smith about that.
It wasn't until Ckret joined the Dropzone thread that any Cooper thread became viable. Everything including this forum has been a spinoff of Dropzone and Dropzone people.
A Google search will turn up a lot of these old extinct threads. The Internet has opened the case up to the public - this wasn't available before. Before that people talked about the case within the circles of their families and friends and work colleagues, informally.
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A big thank you for the reply. I believe I remember Mark Bennet, 377, snowman, and maybe Shutter, R-99 as well as your name. I very well be mistaken about some of the names but I am fairly certain of snowman, 377, and almost positive of Mark Bennett.(Hager's favorite) Was the Cooper thread at dropzone opened in 2007 or 2008? Hag and I discussed D. B. up to a couple of days before his death in March of 2007. A lot of our conversations were actually his answers (or explanations) to whatever was being discussed online at the time. We were involved in a discussion of a certain part of the case which was extremely important to Hag. This was just a couple of days before his passing. Unfortunately we never got the chance to finish it. I am hoping to find the forum Hager was following in hopes it may provide some answers or at least some additional clues into what we were discussing. Thank you once again for your response Georger. I would love to hear more from you and also others about how you got interested in the case.
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It wasn’t me that Haggar read unless he has access from the great beyond. I joined Dropzone after attending the DB Cooper symposium in 2011. If Haggar can follow from the great beyond I think we’ll have questions for him beyond the Cooper case.
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I apologize for my mistake Mr. Bennett. I must of misunderstood whom Hag was referring to when he said 'Mark'. Any other 'Marks ' in the vortex around 2006 or very early 2007?
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A big thank you for the reply. I believe I remember Mark Bennet, 377, snowman, and maybe Shutter, R-99 as well as your name. I very well be mistaken about some of the names but I am fairly certain of snowman, 377, and almost positive of Mark Bennett.(Hager's favorite) Was the Cooper thread at dropzone opened in 2007 or 2008? Hag and I discussed D. B. up to a couple of days before his death in March of 2007. A lot of our conversations were actually his answers (or explanations) to whatever was being discussed online at the time. We were involved in a discussion of a certain part of the case which was extremely important to Hag. This was just a couple of days before his passing. Unfortunately we never got the chance to finish it. I am hoping to find the forum Hager was following in hopes it may provide some answers or at least some additional clues into what we were discussing. Thank you once again for your response Georger. I would love to hear more from you and also others about how you got interested in the case.
Hag (no disrespect intended), the Old Thread at DZ goes back to at least 2004 and may have existed in 2003 or earlier. NickDG makes a coment in one of his posts on Jul 2004 as follows:
"In August 2000, the D.B. Cooper case was exhumed in this column and readers still call and write to ask if the clues we provided have panned out.
Back then a Florida woman named Jo Weber called to say she suspected her late husband, Duane Weber, had been D.B. Cooper, the only man who ever hijacked a commercial airliner in this country and got away with it. "
So maybe people at the DZ were discussing Cooper and Weber in particular clear back in 2000? I know we never discussed Weber at Websleuths because I was there almost from its start to when Weber surfaced at DZ. My first intro to Weber was at DZ. I have a complete copy of the old thread at DZ which has since been taken down.
Websleuth was active clear up until 2008: Snow, Sluggo, and several others were posting at Websleuth and Dropzone in 2007-08. I have those old posts saved.
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Thanks Georger. I thought Hager was following 'you guys'(his term) on DZ but when I went to that site the earliest posts I could see started in 2008. I was under the impression that the DZ actually started in 2008. At one point ,not long before Hager's passing, there was some discussion about the various. D. B. Cooper letters. I think Vancouver B.C. was mentioned . Although Hager had doubts about the authenticity of the letters he did think there might have been some connection between Vancouver and the case. He said there was a business (some place where they may have been involved in some type of metal manufacturing) that I believe he said was located somewhere in the lower third of the state of Washington.(I think he described it as being in the south central part of the state). I am sorry I don't remember the name of it.(sorry again Mr.Bennett, I am obviously not good with names) Hager said this company had another plant (if that's the right description) located in Vancouver B.C. They were different branches of the same company. I think the B.C. location might have been the company's headquarters .
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(couldn't seem to be able to fit this into the above) Hager thought he originally might have met Chuck Dooley at the company's Washington site.
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A big thank you for the reply. I believe I remember Mark Bennet, 377, snowman, and maybe Shutter, R-99 as well as your name. I very well be mistaken about some of the names but I am fairly certain of snowman, 377, and almost positive of Mark Bennett.(Hager's favorite) Was the Cooper thread at dropzone opened in 2007 or 2008? Hag and I discussed D. B. up to a couple of days before his death in March of 2007. A lot of our conversations were actually his answers (or explanations) to whatever was being discussed online at the time. We were involved in a discussion of a certain part of the case which was extremely important to Hag. This was just a couple of days before his passing. Unfortunately we never got the chance to finish it. I am hoping to find the forum Hager was following in hopes it may provide some answers or at least some additional clues into what we were discussing. Thank you once again for your response Georger. I would love to hear more from you and also others about how you got interested in the case.
First, Snowmman is on this thread at this moment. Second, here are some of the times for people joining the current DZ Cooper forum. I don't have any information on the earlier DZ Cooper forum.
Quade, 02/03/2008, which was the start of the present forum.
Georger, 05/25/2008.
Bruce Smith, 03/03/2009.
Robert99, 03/13/2009.
MrShutter45, 12/25/2011.
FYI, my involvement in the Cooper matter started when the FBI asked for public assistance. I ended up talking to Sluggo for quite a while and he told me about the DZ Cooper forum. I didn't post on any Cooper forum prior to joining the DZ Cooper forum on March 13, 2009.
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1. ...Smith was a late comer -
2. ... Jo Weber posted in a few of those old threads as she was working up her vita for presentation to Himmelsbach. You could almost see her history being formed as she tried one story out then would vanish only to appear somewhere else trying another version of her story. Snowmman got a kick out of unraveling her 'trail of bullshit'. Bruce Smith didn't think it did any harm ... which is a commentary of another type. :rofl:
3. ...The third group was buried/closed to the public. Galen Cook is rumored to have had a private forum - maybe you should ask Bruce Smith about that.
4. It wasn't until Ckret joined the Dropzone thread that any Cooper thread became viable. Everything including this forum has been a spinoff of Dropzone and Dropzone people.
1. Late comer? 2009 was ten years ago. Plus, G, you joined the DZ only a few months before I did.
2. Did Jo Weber do any harm? Only in the fact that a serial liar creates a toxic environment to discuss important issues, such as our investigations. More troubling is Jo's extraordinary knowledge base. Plus, she has unprecedented access to Cooper principals. I was shocked when Lee Dormuth (Tina's brother-in-law) told me that Jo was talking to his wife (Jane Mucklow Dormuth - Tina's sister) the night before I showed up at their doorstep in Shelton, WA. Also, when I contacted MSgt Billy Waugh, he stunned me by saying at our first interview: "I hope you're not like that Jo Weber lady. She's crazy!"
How did Jo know the Dormuths and Billy's contact info? There are many other instances where Jo seems to have an unprecedented level of insider information. I have often wondered - and written - if she is "someone else's eyes and ears."
3. Galen does not have a chat room or any kind of online forum. In fact, he posted frequently at the DZ, and got kicked off for bad behavior, as have many of us... right, G???
4. Yup. Larry Carr kicked everything into high gear. It is one of the salient points of his legacy.
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Some background for Haggar....
As Robert shows above, I joined the DZ in 2011. I was always curious about the case but never looked into over the years. while surfing on the web I seen Marla Cooper's story making headlines. I started looking into her story and found multiple problems. somewhere a long the line I found the DZ. it was tough at the start. somehow I was accepted and fell into place.
As time went by Mr. Blevins became an issue after we decided to take him up on "checking things for ourselves". we found all kinds of problems and it went downhill drastically from then on. he's already molding himself into what happened the last time. I seen the thread slowly dying and decided to take a risk an open a new forum minus a few members. not long after the opening of this thread. the DZ was shutdown.
I use to be pretty good at research and finding things and as time went by the bickering returned. it was here, and constantly dealing with Mr. Blevins. it's not very easy to get a bunch of people to discuss things. some seek fame and $$$$ while others try and control. some try to do both. I don't like to put labels on people as others have done in the past. people are people. we have good runs and then it skews. my goal is not reaching every human on the planet. it's a forum meant to discuss DB Cooper. a lot of people don't really care about who Cooper is. I just want to try and make some sense out of everything available. I think my stretch on Websleuths steams from Georger getting a vacation on the DZ. several of us went over there for a while. Jo Weber can drive you crazy too being on the same thread. she is positive Duane knew my father? she would call me two or three times a week. all I would say for an hour is, right, yes, ok etc. :rofl:
A group of four guys acting as one gave me the first set of 302's that were never posted before. this was before Geoffrey posted his. a lot of good has spawned from this site. new documents, members showing up on the tube. we even have Brian Ingram on here but he only posted once. that's the short of my stint...
Shutter
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Thanks Shutter.(and everyone else). I appreciate everyone's response. I am not sure which site Hag was following back in 2007 but at this point it may not be as relevant as I once thought. It's not that I don't care about it but it's obvious that if anybody from that time period is still involved in investigating the case more than likely they would be involved here. I really believe this is where Hager would want me to be. Besides all of that, I really like this place. (great site Shutter)
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Some background for Haggar....
As Robert shows above, I joined the DZ in 2011. I was always curious about the case but never looked into over the years. while surfing on the web I seen Marla Cooper's story making headlines. I started looking into her story and found multiple problems. somewhere a long the line I found the DZ. it was tough at the start. somehow I was accepted and fell into place.
As time went by Mr. Blevins became an issue after we decided to take him up on "checking things for ourselves". we found all kinds of problems and it went downhill drastically from then on. he's already molding himself into what happened the last time. I seen the thread slowly dying and decided to take a risk an open a new forum minus a few members. not long after the opening of this thread. the DZ was shutdown.
I use to be pretty good at research and finding things and as time went by the bickering returned. it was here, and constantly dealing with Mr. Blevins. it's not very easy to get a bunch of people to discuss things. some seek fame and $$$$ while others try and control. some try to do both. I don't like to put labels on people as others have done in the past. people are people. we have good runs and then it skews. my goal is not reaching every human on the planet. it's a forum meant to discuss DB Cooper. a lot of people don't really care about who Cooper is. I just want to try and make some sense out of everything available. I think my stretch on Websleuths steams from Georger getting a vacation on the DZ. several of us went over there for a while. Jo Weber can drive you crazy too being on the same thread. she is positive Duane knew my father? she would call me two or three times a week. all I would say for an hour is, right, yes, ok etc. :rofl:
A group of four guys acting as one gave me the first set of 302's that were never posted before. this was before Geoffrey posted his. a lot of good has spawned from this site. new documents, members showing up on the tube. we even have Brian Ingram on here but he only posted once. that's the short of my stint...
Shutter
I think you are right about my couple of posts at Wbsleuth during a vacation from DZ!
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History of Jo Weber story -
According to Weber herself, she began investigating Cooper in 1995:
"Three days before he died in 1995, Weber told his wife, "I am Dan Cooper." The name meant nothing to her, she said; but months later, a friend told her of its significance in the hijacking. She went to her local library to research D.B. Cooper, found Max Gunther's book, and discovered notations in the margins in her husband's handwriting.[5]" wiki
Then the Max Gunther library book supposedly containing Duane's notes at Virginia Beach, Virginia. mysteriously vanished! Nobody could produce the book again to test Jo's claim that the hand writing she cited in Gunther's Cooper book was in fact Duane's hand writing. The Library was contacted and the book was 'missing or lost'!
Im not sure when Jo and Duane moved to Virginia Beach, Virginia but she made another claim. She said after she and Duane moved to Virginia Beach, Duane took her to see the house where Richard McCoy had been killed in 1974. According to Jo, Duane was sorry and felt guilty about McCoy's death at the hands of the FBI. Jo said Duane remarked: 'McCoy died a useless death'. Jo claims she knew nothing about the Cooper hijacking at the time.
So Jo says she started her case clear back in 1995. She was also advertising a new realty business at Pace FL.
Jo was still 'researching and asking for help in 2006. She posted here in 2006 detailing her search history: http://www.sitcomsonline.com/boards/archive/index.php/t-177140.html
She contacted a writer (Pasternak) in 2000 seeking help; he wrote an article on her case. She then contacted FBI Agent Himmelsback and convinced him to open a file in her behalf. Himmelsbach referred her to Jerry Thomas. According to JT Jo's claim was that Duane 'might have known who Cooper was' not that Duane had been DB Cooper! JT claims to have a recording of that telephone call.
Jo never could perfect a consistent proven case. She contacted hundreds of people saying "Please help me! I only want the truth."
At length she filed complaints against SA Larry Carr and tried to get him fired. That ended Carr's participation on Dropzone.
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A Google search might turn some of those old extinct groups up. Blevins did a search for them and found my name on several of the old ones, and harassed me about it at Dropzone later.
Actually Georger, you can blame me for that, at least in part. There was a time when I didn't think that Blevins was that bad and that people on the forum was a little too hard on him. I was wrong, obviously, and I know that now. But, I was the one that came across the article with all of those "filthy comments" that Blevins so often alludes to and I sent him a link. I had no idea at the time that he was going to constantly bring it up and was NEVER going to let it go. I regret doing it every time he brings it up. But, as much as I'd like to, I can't undo it. My bad :( :(.
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He's never shown a shred of proof. the last time he thought he had Georger's IP it was a Google bot IP.
The original story Blevins has was Regina gave him the IP addresses. then years later he claimed his tech buddy found them. another site is still running but I don't have the link. I have a very good idea who some of them are and it isn't Georger. the 2011 site was before I even came into the picture.
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Does anyone remember the FOIA document relating the hair samples taken from Cooper's chair? My own Cooper files are spread across four different pieces of equipment and I can no longer find anything...
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He's never shown a shred of proof. the last time he thought he had Georger's IP it was a Google bot IP.
The original story Blevins has was Regina gave him the IP addresses. then years later he claimed his tech buddy found them. another site is still running but I don't have the link. I have a very good idea who some of them are and it isn't Georger. the 2011 site was before I even came into the picture.
I make no attempt to have anything to do with RMB, or with Jo. :nono: :chr2:
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I had this dream about Jo.
I'm at the Pearly Gates and St. Peter asks me, "So, tell me about Jo Weber."
I look around for options. Then I'm awake...
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Does anyone remember the FOIA document relating the hair samples taken from Cooper's chair? My own Cooper files are spread across four different pieces of equipment and I can no longer find anything...
Martin: Start on page 108. Too big of a file to post here. Here is link: https://dbcooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/TJC-FOIA-FBI-Section-6-325-Pages-12-6-71-to-12-8-71.pdf
Or if you want to reference the files if you have them saved: TJC-FOIA-FBI-Section-6-325-Pages-12-6-71-to-12-8-71.pdf
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Does anyone remember the FOIA document relating the hair samples taken from Cooper's chair? My own Cooper files are spread across four different pieces of equipment and I can no longer find anything...
Martin: Here is another one. This has more. Start page 67. https://dbcooper.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/TJC-FOIA-FBI-Section-08-Part-2-91-Pages-12-13-71-to-12-14-71.pdf
TJC-FOIA-FBI-Section-08-Part-2-91-Pages-12-13-71-to-12-14-71
I've indexed some of the parts of the FOIA files that I found interesting to me, and in this case the information on the hair and the cigarettes made my list.
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"At length she (Jo Weber) filed complaints against SA Larry Carr and tried to get him fired. That ended Carr's participation on Dropzone."
Think about the above before you conclude that Jo did no harm.
377
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It's hard to believe that anyone in the FBI would make a personnel decision on a field agent based solely on the rantings of a gal like Jo. I suspect that a lot more was going on behind the scenes, such as the Bureau's distaste for Carr's behavior. I doubt he had many friends in the FBI for starting the Citizen Sleuths, posting on the DZ, and jumping in front of every camera lens he could find.
Dorwin had the same problem in Portland. Everybody in the office was jealous of him, according to Dorwin's grandson.
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It's hard to believe that anyone in the FBI would make a personnel decision on a field agent based solely on the rantings of a gal like Jo. I suspect that a lot more was going on behind the scenes, such as the Bureau's distaste for Carr's behavior. I doubt he had many friends in the FBI for starting the Citizen Sleuths, posting on the DZ, and jumping in front of every camera lens he could find.
Dorwin had the same problem in Portland. Everybody in the office was jealous of him, according to Dorwin's grandson.
You and Galen peddle a lot of "smack". Tell all. But then you dont "tell all"! :nono:
Dorwin's job at Portland was "negotiator" and "public communication liaison". According to Dorwin's grandson, people praised Dorwin for that.
So make up your minds: Galen and Smith. You cant have your cake and eat Dorwin and his grandson all three! Or maybe your smack is worthless crap, meant to get you in the news at the expense of truth? Some people just-must get themselves in the news, or in the story, even when it doesn't concern them at all! :rofl:
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just curious.....How often were the banking institutions asked to publish the serial numbers from the ransom money? On Bruce's website Flyjack posted (newly released?) F.B.I. docs. I think it is part 38 of 38. About the third or fourth page into it mentions something about a request to publish the serial numbers. I think they were making the request of a couple of banks located in Washington.(apparently they agreed to the request) I believe the request took place in 1976. When did the first list of the serial numbers get published? Were they (F.B.I.) continually asking for the publishing of the numbers or was there something else that occurred around this time that prompted the request to publish the numbers?
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just curious.....How often were the banking institutions asked to publish the serial numbers from the ransom money? On Bruce's website Flyjack posted (newly released?) F.B.I. docs. I think it is part 38 of 38. About the third or fourth page into it mentions something about a request to publish the serial numbers. I think they were making the request of a couple of banks located in Washington.(apparently they agreed to the request) I believe the request took place in 1976. When did the first list of the serial numbers get published? Were they (F.B.I.) continually asking for the publishing of the numbers or was there something else that occurred around this time that prompted the request to publish the numbers?
The serial numbers were published shortly after the hijacking. It took a bit of time for the FBI to determine which of the "money pool" bills were used and then to get the numbers organized so as to be useful. Remember that there were 10,000 bills (or maybe it was just 9,998) involved. FJ to the contrary, there was nothing unusual in the release of the bills information.
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Thank you Robert99 for the response. I might not have been real clear about the last part of my questions. Why were they asking for the numbers to be published again in 1976?
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Thank you Robert99 for the response. I might not have been real clear about the last part of my questions. Why were they asking for the numbers to be published again in 1976?
I don't really know, but it might have been just a routine action to get some publicity for the by then cold case. This was about five years after the hijacking. There have been any number of other stories about the hijacking over the years that were very weak from a journalistic point of view but did serve the purpose of getting media attention.
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Thanks once again Robert99. Sounds like a plausible explanation. Would this have had anything to do with the John Doe indictment of D.B. Cooper? Seems to have occurred around the same time didn't it? I am not real sure when the indictment happened. I have one other idea about why they might have been asking for the serial numbers to be published at this time but it is pure speculation.
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Thanks once again Robert99. Sounds like a plausible explanation. Would this have had anything to do with the John Doe indictment of D.B. Cooper? Seems to have occurred around the same time didn't it? I am not real sure when the indictment happened. I have one other idea about why they might have been asking for the serial numbers to be published at this time but it is pure speculation.
I think the statute of limitations was five years so, November 1976 would be when they would have to get that John Doe indictment.
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Am deep in novel revisions for my publisher. Does anyone remember (without my digging for hours through all this stuff, lol) what kind of drugs he offered Tina for the flight crew and whether that is confirmed by the FBI docs?
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Amphetamines. At least, that's the logical implication
It's from Tosaw's book...
p30
"Don't worry. I've got some pills to keep them awake"
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GG states it was Benadryl, I think.
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Amphetamines. At least, that's the logical implication
It's from Tosaw's book...
p30
"Don't worry. I've got some pills to keep them awake"
What Tosaw doesn't tell you or his audience is - Amphetamines and DRUGS OF ALL KINDS were endemic to all wars, WWI, II, Korea, Vietnam, etc. All service branches. All nations especially Germany and China and the US of A. All pilots. All truck drivers. Laborers everywhere on Earth!
It's like Tosaw announcing: humans breath oxygen! Duuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh I didn't know! :rofl:
So Cooper tells a stew who probably has had an amp or two to tell pilots who have probably taken amps ... that he has amps if they want them, too!. He should have told Tina he had genitals, arms, feet, and a head ? That he drank water and needed air! Then he turns around and wants meals for everyone!
How about a free night at the Koka Kabana in Havannah?
There is something about this that is just a little WEIRD. Like rocks on the Moon and shells on turtles. And wings on birds. And other good Christian news from Mr. Tosaw. Amerikans wanna know.
Fact is, its like telling a baseball player you need to hit in this game. So Bring bat. Not a stick or a broom! ?
Tina responds 'I will go deliver the message to the pharmacists right now'!
Who tracks Indians best? Another Indian?
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GG states it was Benadryl, I think.
Oh gee - have we mixed up the drugs?
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Amphetamines. At least, that's the logical implication
It's from Tosaw's book...
p30
"Don't worry. I've got some pills to keep them awake"
What kind of guy tells aviators familiar with drugs, that he has drugs to help them?
1. a small moron
2. BIG idiot
3. a forgetful person who is on drugs or senile?
4. a person with a checklist on how to conduct a hijacking he's running through?
5. it never happened
6. a Baptist
7. an auditor at the Chase Manhattan Bank.
8. . . .
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Not to interrupt the flow here, but do we have photos of the SkyChef restaurant at PDX ca.1971?
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Not to interrupt the flow here, but do we have photos of the SkyChef restaurant at PDX ca.1971?
Damn! Good question. You're not interrupting anything! ;)
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Am deep in novel revisions for my publisher. Does anyone remember (without my digging for hours through all this stuff, lol) what kind of drugs he offered Tina for the flight crew and whether that is confirmed by the FBI docs?
Cooper reportedly said that he had drugs for the pilots if they got tired. This would probably be something like pills truck drivers reportedly use for long distance drives.
However, if Cooper had some special forces type of military training, the drugs could be something that the military issues to such troops to keep them alert during extended missions.
Even the USAF reportedly issues drugs to pilots that are involved in extended flights. Perhaps you have seen pictures of pilots with a small pill container attached to the collar of their flight suit.
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Not to interrupt the flow here, but do we have photos of the SkyChef restaurant at PDX ca.1971?
All I could find at the moment is a postcard showing a bar in PDX. it appears to have a restaurant next to it. it looks similar to a Skychef in Denver...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1RL1OvSXyzPxRznJbYMsQw6LSkyOdqsJ0/view?usp=sharing
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Am deep in novel revisions for my publisher. Does anyone remember (without my digging for hours through all this stuff, lol) what kind of drugs he offered Tina for the flight crew and whether that is confirmed by the FBI docs?
Cooper reportedly said that he had drugs for the pilots if they got tired. This would probably be something like pills truck drivers reportedly use for long distance drives.
However, if Cooper had some special forces type of military training, the drugs could be something that the military issues to such troops to keep them alert during extended missions.
Even the USAF reportedly issues drugs to pilots that are involved in extended flights. Perhaps you have seen pictures of pilots with a small pill container attached to the collar of their flight suit.
Tosaw appears to be the only source for this bizarre drug story. I guess Tosaw got a scoop that everyone else missed, and there is no other record of.
But of course Tosaw also claimed that Cooper landed in the Columbia.
Tina missed an opportunity. Pills from Cooper might lead to a source.
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Am deep in novel revisions for my publisher. Does anyone remember (without my digging for hours through all this stuff, lol) what kind of drugs he offered Tina for the flight crew and whether that is confirmed by the FBI docs?
Cooper reportedly said that he had drugs for the pilots if they got tired. This would probably be something like pills truck drivers reportedly use for long distance drives.
However, if Cooper had some special forces type of military training, the drugs could be something that the military issues to such troops to keep them alert during extended missions.
Even the USAF reportedly issues drugs to pilots that are involved in extended flights. Perhaps you have seen pictures of pilots with a small pill container attached to the collar of their flight suit.
Tosaw appears to be the only source for this bizarre drug story. I guess Tosaw got a scoop that everyone else missed, and there is no other record of.
But of course Tosaw also claimed that Cooper landed in the Columbia.
Hm, I will take a slog through the docs again, but like you, I don't remember pills specifically from the initial interviews. Am trying to remember the medicinal elements - maybe something that coated pills? - they found on the tie. GG did have access to some witnesses most others haven't - a lot of detail about Flo's thoughts, I would think too much for dramatic license given she's a living person, and with Alice as well. I just re-checked GG's book - I like his description of the skyjack itself for sheer in-the-moment elements, but I wish he hadn't gotten tangled up in the KC and DW lines! - and he mentions Benzedrine. (I thought this might be an ingredient in Benylin as well, but apparently their line contains dextromethorphan and occasionally codeine.) GG's end notes are a bit general in places but he states all elements of the flight description come from the records as well as his own interviews.
You're correct on its uses in wartime and other sleepless-by-necessity situations [from Wikipedia]:
Benzedrine and derived amphetamines were used as a stimulant for armed forces during World War II and the Vietnam War.[5] Benzedrine was commonly referenced in Beatnik culture and writings. It was referenced in the works of famous Beats, including Jack Kerouac's novel On the Road, Sylvia Plath's novel The Bell Jar, William S. Burroughs's novel Junky, and Allen Ginsberg's memoir poem "Howl". Benzedrine is also mentioned in John Rechy's novel City of Night and several novels by Jacqueline Susann, in particular The Love Machine in which main character Robin Stone treats the drug as a staple of "a well balanced diet" inclusive of red meat and cigarettes. Benzedrine is frequently referenced in Hubert Selby Jr.'s novel Last Exit to Brooklyn.[6]
When amphetamine became a controlled substance, it was replaced by propylhexedrine. Propylhexedrine was also manufactured by Smith, Kline and French and was marketed under the name Benzedrex. The Benzedrex inhaler is still available today, but is now manufactured by B.F. Ascher & Company, inc.
Shutter, that's the clearest version of that postcard I've ever seen. Thank you so much, and thanks to all ye gentlemen and scholars. Will check the FBI docs tomorrow, may have just missed it.
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By the way, I don't know if something like this has been posted before, but this shows the weather at Portland airport on Nov 24/71 - of course the weather in the jump zone could have been quite different, but this doesn't sound that alarming IMO. But then I did grow up in a -50 degree C weather zone... :) https://www.wunderground.com/history/daily/us/or/scappoose/KPDX/date/1971-11-24
If the pilots did report inclement weather, do we know which municipalities along Victor 23 showed such weather that night? That might help narrow the DZ possibilities. I couldn't find historical Ariel for that night on the weather underground, I guess because it's small. Only found Portland. Were there other stations along the route, like smaller local ones that might have historical records?
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Finding no reference to pills on trueink's excerpts of the FBI interviews. Both Alice and Tina did mention maps - Tina says they were brought aboard, Alice thought Cooper had demanded them, but that could be incorrect. https://true.ink/story/d-b-cooper-fbi-files-released/
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Finding no reference to pills on trueink's excerpts of the FBI interviews. Both Alice and Tina did mention maps - Tina says they were brought aboard, Alice thought Cooper had demanded them, but that could be incorrect. https://true.ink/story/d-b-cooper-fbi-files-released/
I have the whole file in our vault so there would be no need to log in to that site...
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Finding no reference to pills on trueink's excerpts of the FBI interviews. Both Alice and Tina did mention maps - Tina says they were brought aboard, Alice thought Cooper had demanded them, but that could be incorrect. https://true.ink/story/d-b-cooper-fbi-files-released/
I have the whole file in our vault so there would be no need to log in to that site...
LOL I was having trouble locating the vault last night but found it today. Rataczak's is File #2 after the GG new files section. http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
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I got tired of going through his site and asked him if it was ok to post...
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I got tired of going through his site and asked him if it was ok to post...
Yeah, they haven't added to that site in a long time. It has all the interviews together, which is helpful, as is the Vault - going through all the FBI docs is nightmarish. There's a lot of completely out there stuff, like the tons of stuff about the people that flim-flammed Newsweek. But I'm trying to be as accurate as possible about what was formally recorded onboard as there have been so many inaccuracies in second-hand reporting. I actually saw a 2019 recap that says ALL the money was found at Tena/Tina Bar.
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When you read all these 302's it's no wonder they had enough. it was nothing but the same old same old. he looked like the sketch, had money etc.
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When you read all these 302's it's no wonder they had enough. it was nothing but the same old same old. he looked like the sketch, had money etc.
Oh, it's insane. You have to take a breather when you've got people linking DBC to everyone from Kaczynski to Jon Benet Ramsay's killer.
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When you read all these 302's it's no wonder they had enough. it was nothing but the same old same old. he looked like the sketch, had money etc.
Oh, it's insane. You have to take a breather when you've got people linking DBC to everyone from Kaczynski to Jon Benet Ramsay's killer.
Let's make one thing absolutely clear: the only reasons I have linked Cooper to Kaczynski is because there are factual links! 305 landed in Missoula Montana before going on to Portland! Kaczynski had a grudge with technology and airlines in particular - he killed several airline officials! Kaczynski designed and built bombs and used them in crimes! Kaczynski had a few like-minded associates around him. Kaczynski was living in Montana when the Cooper hijacking happened. And to make a long story short: the FBI wondered if Kaczynski or an associate of his was DB Cooper and they spent man-hours checking that possibility out!
Cooper made a strange reply to Tina when asked why he was doing this. He said he had a grudge, but not against your airlines. So with a reply like that, did he have a grudge against other airlines? His reply leaves the door open!
Kaczynski does not fit the physical description very well, but did someone he knew or associated with? Did Kaczynski build the bomb for Cooper? Probably not by Tina's description, unless he bought all the parts? Did the brief case belong to Kaczynski ?
So PLEASE GET YOUR FACTUAL HISTORY STRAIGHT when it comes to Kaczynski and the DB Cooper case.
Jon Benet Ramsay's killer? There is no known connection to the Cooper case. That is stuff for the Bruce Smith book!
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When you read all these 302's it's no wonder they had enough. it was nothing but the same old same old. he looked like the sketch, had money etc.
Oh, it's insane. You have to take a breather when you've got people linking DBC to everyone from Kaczynski to Jon Benet Ramsay's killer.
Let's make one thing absolutely clear: the only reasons I have linked Cooper to Kaczynski is because there are factual links! 305 landed in Missoula Montana before going on to Portland! Kaczynski had a grudge with technology and airlines in particular - he killed several airline officials! Kaczynski designed and built bombs and used them in crimes! Kaczynski had a few like-minded associates around him. Kaczynski was living in Montana when the Cooper hijacking happened. And to make a long story short: the FBI wondered if Kaczynski or an associate of his was DB Cooper and they spent man-hours checking that possibility out!
Cooper made a strange reply to Tina when asked why he was doing this. He said he had a grudge, but not against your airlines. So with a reply like that, did he have a grudge against other airlines? His reply leaves the door open!
Kaczynski does not fit the physical profile very well, but did someone he knew or associated with? Did Kaczynski build the bomb for Cooper? Probably not by Tina's description, unless he bought all the parts?
So PLEASE GET YOUR FACTUAL HISTORY STRAIGHT when it comes to Kaczynski and the DB Cooper case.
Jon Benet Ramsay's killer? There is no known connection to the Cooper case. That is stuff for the Bruce Smith book!
I wasn't referring to you re: Kaczynski, georger. There was a weird run of comments - I want to say about a year ago, but who knows how long I've been down this rabbit hole - on Bruce's forum and there were all these people taking RB seriously and then these long rambling links to Zodiac, Kaczynski, JonBenet, basically every famous US crime over the last 40+ years. I had to stop reading comment threads ANYWHERE but on this forum. They were starting to make a certain obsessed ex look lucid by comparison.
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When you read all these 302's it's no wonder they had enough. it was nothing but the same old same old. he looked like the sketch, had money etc.
Oh, it's insane. You have to take a breather when you've got people linking DBC to everyone from Kaczynski to Jon Benet Ramsay's killer.
Let's make one thing absolutely clear: the only reasons I have linked Cooper to Kaczynski is because there are factual links! 305 landed in Missoula Montana before going on to Portland! Kaczynski had a grudge with technology and airlines in particular - he killed several airline officials! Kaczynski designed and built bombs and used them in crimes! Kaczynski had a few like-minded associates around him. Kaczynski was living in Montana when the Cooper hijacking happened. And to make a long story short: the FBI wondered if Kaczynski or an associate of his was DB Cooper and they spent man-hours checking that possibility out!
Cooper made a strange reply to Tina when asked why he was doing this. He said he had a grudge, but not against your airlines. So with a reply like that, did he have a grudge against other airlines? His reply leaves the door open!
Kaczynski does not fit the physical profile very well, but did someone he knew or associated with? Did Kaczynski build the bomb for Cooper? Probably not by Tina's description, unless he bought all the parts?
So PLEASE GET YOUR FACTUAL HISTORY STRAIGHT when it comes to Kaczynski and the DB Cooper case.
Jon Benet Ramsay's killer? There is no known connection to the Cooper case. That is stuff for the Bruce Smith book!
I wasn't referring to you re: Kaczynski, georger. There was a weird run of comments - I want to say about a year ago, but who knows how long I've been down this rabbit hole - on Bruce's forum and there were all these people taking RB seriously and then these long rambling links to Zodiac, Kaczynski, JonBenet, basically every famous US crime over the last 40+ years. I had to stop reading comment threads ANYWHERE but on this forum. They were starting to make a certain obsessed ex look lucid by comparison.
Having said that, I can see why the feds would look at Kaczynski, as well as why he can likely be eliminated. I also think if Cooper had a grudge against another airline, he'd have hijacked that one.
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When you read all these 302's it's no wonder they had enough. it was nothing but the same old same old. he looked like the sketch, had money etc.
Oh, it's insane. You have to take a breather when you've got people linking DBC to everyone from Kaczynski to Jon Benet Ramsay's killer.
Let's make one thing absolutely clear: the only reasons I have linked Cooper to Kaczynski is because there are factual links! 305 landed in Missoula Montana before going on to Portland! Kaczynski had a grudge with technology and airlines in particular - he killed several airline officials! Kaczynski designed and built bombs and used them in crimes! Kaczynski had a few like-minded associates around him. Kaczynski was living in Montana when the Cooper hijacking happened. And to make a long story short: the FBI wondered if Kaczynski or an associate of his was DB Cooper and they spent man-hours checking that possibility out!
Cooper made a strange reply to Tina when asked why he was doing this. He said he had a grudge, but not against your airlines. So with a reply like that, did he have a grudge against other airlines? His reply leaves the door open!
Kaczynski does not fit the physical profile very well, but did someone he knew or associated with? Did Kaczynski build the bomb for Cooper? Probably not by Tina's description, unless he bought all the parts?
So PLEASE GET YOUR FACTUAL HISTORY STRAIGHT when it comes to Kaczynski and the DB Cooper case.
Jon Benet Ramsay's killer? There is no known connection to the Cooper case. That is stuff for the Bruce Smith book!
I wasn't referring to you re: Kaczynski, georger. There was a weird run of comments - I want to say about a year ago, but who knows how long I've been down this rabbit hole - on Bruce's forum and there were all these people taking RB seriously and then these long rambling links to Zodiac, Kaczynski, JonBenet, basically every famous US crime over the last 40+ years. I had to stop reading comment threads ANYWHERE but on this forum. They were starting to make a certain obsessed ex look lucid by comparison.
I know that. Thanks Lynn. Kaczynski however was actually investigated as being linked to the Cooper case, for a whole list of reasons not the least of which was agents wondered and brought it up. Kaczynski was newly arrived at his cabin in MT when the Cooper hijacking happened.
In any event Kaczynski was investigated for being DB Cooper - there must be many 302's about that. It's documented in people's books and I have a personal connection to this through a friend I went to college with -
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When you read all these 302's it's no wonder they had enough. it was nothing but the same old same old. he looked like the sketch, had money etc.
Oh, it's insane. You have to take a breather when you've got people linking DBC to everyone from Kaczynski to Jon Benet Ramsay's killer.
Let's make one thing absolutely clear: the only reasons I have linked Cooper to Kaczynski is because there are factual links! 305 landed in Missoula Montana before going on to Portland! Kaczynski had a grudge with technology and airlines in particular - he killed several airline officials! Kaczynski designed and built bombs and used them in crimes! Kaczynski had a few like-minded associates around him. Kaczynski was living in Montana when the Cooper hijacking happened. And to make a long story short: the FBI wondered if Kaczynski or an associate of his was DB Cooper and they spent man-hours checking that possibility out!
Cooper made a strange reply to Tina when asked why he was doing this. He said he had a grudge, but not against your airlines. So with a reply like that, did he have a grudge against other airlines? His reply leaves the door open!
Kaczynski does not fit the physical profile very well, but did someone he knew or associated with? Did Kaczynski build the bomb for Cooper? Probably not by Tina's description, unless he bought all the parts?
So PLEASE GET YOUR FACTUAL HISTORY STRAIGHT when it comes to Kaczynski and the DB Cooper case.
Jon Benet Ramsay's killer? There is no known connection to the Cooper case. That is stuff for the Bruce Smith book!
I wasn't referring to you re: Kaczynski, georger. There was a weird run of comments - I want to say about a year ago, but who knows how long I've been down this rabbit hole - on Bruce's forum and there were all these people taking RB seriously and then these long rambling links to Zodiac, Kaczynski, JonBenet, basically every famous US crime over the last 40+ years. I had to stop reading comment threads ANYWHERE but on this forum. They were starting to make a certain obsessed ex look lucid by comparison.
I know that. Thanks Lynn. Kaczynski however was actually investigated as being linked to the Cooper case, for a whole list of reasons not the least of which was agents wondered and brought it up. Kaczynski was newly arrived at his cabin in MT when the Cooper hijacking happened.
In any event Kaczynski was investigated for being DB Cooper - there must be many 302's about that. It's documented in people's books and I have a personal connection to this through a friend I went to college with -
I've always seen Cooper as a loner - but Kaczynski did consort with other criminals in prison - Dahmer was one and I can't recall the other. Him acting as a consultant wouldn't be out of the question. "How did these people FIND each other?" would not be a new question in a criminal case if there were more than one person involved.
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When you read all these 302's it's no wonder they had enough. it was nothing but the same old same old. he looked like the sketch, had money etc.
Oh, it's insane. You have to take a breather when you've got people linking DBC to everyone from Kaczynski to Jon Benet Ramsay's killer.
Let's make one thing absolutely clear: the only reasons I have linked Cooper to Kaczynski is because there are factual links! 305 landed in Missoula Montana before going on to Portland! Kaczynski had a grudge with technology and airlines in particular - he killed several airline officials! Kaczynski designed and built bombs and used them in crimes! Kaczynski had a few like-minded associates around him. Kaczynski was living in Montana when the Cooper hijacking happened. And to make a long story short: the FBI wondered if Kaczynski or an associate of his was DB Cooper and they spent man-hours checking that possibility out!
Cooper made a strange reply to Tina when asked why he was doing this. He said he had a grudge, but not against your airlines. So with a reply like that, did he have a grudge against other airlines? His reply leaves the door open!
Kaczynski does not fit the physical profile very well, but did someone he knew or associated with? Did Kaczynski build the bomb for Cooper? Probably not by Tina's description, unless he bought all the parts?
So PLEASE GET YOUR FACTUAL HISTORY STRAIGHT when it comes to Kaczynski and the DB Cooper case.
Jon Benet Ramsay's killer? There is no known connection to the Cooper case. That is stuff for the Bruce Smith book!
I wasn't referring to you re: Kaczynski, georger. There was a weird run of comments - I want to say about a year ago, but who knows how long I've been down this rabbit hole - on Bruce's forum and there were all these people taking RB seriously and then these long rambling links to Zodiac, Kaczynski, JonBenet, basically every famous US crime over the last 40+ years. I had to stop reading comment threads ANYWHERE but on this forum. They were starting to make a certain obsessed ex look lucid by comparison.
I know that. Thanks Lynn. Kaczynski however was actually investigated as being linked to the Cooper case, for a whole list of reasons not the least of which was agents wondered and brought it up. Kaczynski was newly arrived at his cabin in MT when the Cooper hijacking happened.
In any event Kaczynski was investigated for being DB Cooper - there must be many 302's about that. It's documented in people's books and I have a personal connection to this through a friend I went to college with -
Kaczynski was 29 years old in 1971 and didn't look anything like the drawings of Cooper. Also, Cooper had social skills and Kaczynski didn't. And Kaczynski was not investigated for anything until shortly before his arrest in 1996 (?).
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When you read all these 302's it's no wonder they had enough. it was nothing but the same old same old. he looked like the sketch, had money etc.
Oh, it's insane. You have to take a breather when you've got people linking DBC to everyone from Kaczynski to Jon Benet Ramsay's killer.
Let's make one thing absolutely clear: the only reasons I have linked Cooper to Kaczynski is because there are factual links! 305 landed in Missoula Montana before going on to Portland! Kaczynski had a grudge with technology and airlines in particular - he killed several airline officials! Kaczynski designed and built bombs and used them in crimes! Kaczynski had a few like-minded associates around him. Kaczynski was living in Montana when the Cooper hijacking happened. And to make a long story short: the FBI wondered if Kaczynski or an associate of his was DB Cooper and they spent man-hours checking that possibility out!
Cooper made a strange reply to Tina when asked why he was doing this. He said he had a grudge, but not against your airlines. So with a reply like that, did he have a grudge against other airlines? His reply leaves the door open!
Kaczynski does not fit the physical profile very well, but did someone he knew or associated with? Did Kaczynski build the bomb for Cooper? Probably not by Tina's description, unless he bought all the parts?
So PLEASE GET YOUR FACTUAL HISTORY STRAIGHT when it comes to Kaczynski and the DB Cooper case.
Jon Benet Ramsay's killer? There is no known connection to the Cooper case. That is stuff for the Bruce Smith book!
I wasn't referring to you re: Kaczynski, georger. There was a weird run of comments - I want to say about a year ago, but who knows how long I've been down this rabbit hole - on Bruce's forum and there were all these people taking RB seriously and then these long rambling links to Zodiac, Kaczynski, JonBenet, basically every famous US crime over the last 40+ years. I had to stop reading comment threads ANYWHERE but on this forum. They were starting to make a certain obsessed ex look lucid by comparison.
I know that. Thanks Lynn. Kaczynski however was actually investigated as being linked to the Cooper case, for a whole list of reasons not the least of which was agents wondered and brought it up. Kaczynski was newly arrived at his cabin in MT when the Cooper hijacking happened.
In any event Kaczynski was investigated for being DB Cooper - there must be many 302's about that. It's documented in people's books and I have a personal connection to this through a friend I went to college with -
Kaczynski was 29 years old in 1971 and didn't look anything like the drawings of Cooper. Also, Cooper had social skills and Kaczynski didn't. And Kaczynski was not investigated for anything until shortly before his arrest in 1996 (?).
Online I'm also finding that he didn't begin sabotage activities until 1975, when he realized a wilderness lifestyle was being made untenable by development. He abandoned his math career abruptly in 1969 and did indeed enter the wilderness in 1971, but even as an accomplice, I can't see how a Cooper would have found him or why he would have consulted him about bombs at this point unless it was a "met a guy in a bar" kind of situation - unlikely, as Kaczynski only opened up after longer acquaintance. It is possible the FBI looked at him in view of older crimes after his arrest, though. There's only so many known bombers. I've just never been convinced Cooper's bomb was even real, going by descriptions of the dynamite. There were books at that time teaching people to make Molotov cocktails and such; the Internet didn't invent that kind of info spread. You could probably have found a photo of a working bomb at the library to go by.
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When you read all these 302's it's no wonder they had enough. it was nothing but the same old same old. he looked like the sketch, had money etc.
Oh, it's insane. You have to take a breather when you've got people linking DBC to everyone from Kaczynski to Jon Benet Ramsay's killer.
Let's make one thing absolutely clear: the only reasons I have linked Cooper to Kaczynski is because there are factual links! 305 landed in Missoula Montana before going on to Portland! Kaczynski had a grudge with technology and airlines in particular - he killed several airline officials! Kaczynski designed and built bombs and used them in crimes! Kaczynski had a few like-minded associates around him. Kaczynski was living in Montana when the Cooper hijacking happened. And to make a long story short: the FBI wondered if Kaczynski or an associate of his was DB Cooper and they spent man-hours checking that possibility out!
Cooper made a strange reply to Tina when asked why he was doing this. He said he had a grudge, but not against your airlines. So with a reply like that, did he have a grudge against other airlines? His reply leaves the door open!
Kaczynski does not fit the physical profile very well, but did someone he knew or associated with? Did Kaczynski build the bomb for Cooper? Probably not by Tina's description, unless he bought all the parts?
So PLEASE GET YOUR FACTUAL HISTORY STRAIGHT when it comes to Kaczynski and the DB Cooper case.
Jon Benet Ramsay's killer? There is no known connection to the Cooper case. That is stuff for the Bruce Smith book!
I wasn't referring to you re: Kaczynski, georger. There was a weird run of comments - I want to say about a year ago, but who knows how long I've been down this rabbit hole - on Bruce's forum and there were all these people taking RB seriously and then these long rambling links to Zodiac, Kaczynski, JonBenet, basically every famous US crime over the last 40+ years. I had to stop reading comment threads ANYWHERE but on this forum. They were starting to make a certain obsessed ex look lucid by comparison.
I know that. Thanks Lynn. Kaczynski however was actually investigated as being linked to the Cooper case, for a whole list of reasons not the least of which was agents wondered and brought it up. Kaczynski was newly arrived at his cabin in MT when the Cooper hijacking happened.
In any event Kaczynski was investigated for being DB Cooper - there must be many 302's about that. It's documented in people's books and I have a personal connection to this through a friend I went to college with -
Kaczynski was 29 years old in 1971 and didn't look anything like the drawings of Cooper. Also, Cooper had social skills and Kaczynski didn't. And Kaczynski was not investigated for anything until shortly before his arrest in 1996 (?).
all correct - which I have stated many times! You get an A. The Cooper case was unsolved in 1996 and still is today.
Kaczynski was from Chicago, Illinois and so had a Midwestern 'accent' - with 'get the show on the road' and several other Cooper phrases part of his native lexicon.
'After resigning from Berkeley, Kaczynski moved to his parents' home in Lombard, Illinois, then two years later, in 1971, to a remote cabin he had built outside Lincoln, Montana, where he could live a simple life with little money and without electricity or running water,[44] working odd jobs and receiving some financial support from his family.[9]'
In an interview after his arrest, he recalled being shocked on a hike to one of his favorite wild spots:[45]
" It's kind of rolling country, not flat, and when you get to the edge of it you find these ravines that cut very steeply in to cliff-like drop-offs and there was even a waterfall there. It was about a two days' hike from my cabin. That was the best spot until the summer of 1983. That summer there were too many people around my cabin so I decided I needed some peace. I went back to the plateau and when I got there I found they had put a road right through the middle of it ... You just can't imagine how upset I was. It was from that point on I decided that, rather than trying to acquire further wilderness skills, I would work on getting back at the system. Revenge. "
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When you read all these 302's it's no wonder they had enough. it was nothing but the same old same old. he looked like the sketch, had money etc.
Oh, it's insane. You have to take a breather when you've got people linking DBC to everyone from Kaczynski to Jon Benet Ramsay's killer.
Let's make one thing absolutely clear: the only reasons I have linked Cooper to Kaczynski is because there are factual links! 305 landed in Missoula Montana before going on to Portland! Kaczynski had a grudge with technology and airlines in particular - he killed several airline officials! Kaczynski designed and built bombs and used them in crimes! Kaczynski had a few like-minded associates around him. Kaczynski was living in Montana when the Cooper hijacking happened. And to make a long story short: the FBI wondered if Kaczynski or an associate of his was DB Cooper and they spent man-hours checking that possibility out!
Cooper made a strange reply to Tina when asked why he was doing this. He said he had a grudge, but not against your airlines. So with a reply like that, did he have a grudge against other airlines? His reply leaves the door open!
Kaczynski does not fit the physical profile very well, but did someone he knew or associated with? Did Kaczynski build the bomb for Cooper? Probably not by Tina's description, unless he bought all the parts?
So PLEASE GET YOUR FACTUAL HISTORY STRAIGHT when it comes to Kaczynski and the DB Cooper case.
Jon Benet Ramsay's killer? There is no known connection to the Cooper case. That is stuff for the Bruce Smith book!
I wasn't referring to you re: Kaczynski, georger. There was a weird run of comments - I want to say about a year ago, but who knows how long I've been down this rabbit hole - on Bruce's forum and there were all these people taking RB seriously and then these long rambling links to Zodiac, Kaczynski, JonBenet, basically every famous US crime over the last 40+ years. I had to stop reading comment threads ANYWHERE but on this forum. They were starting to make a certain obsessed ex look lucid by comparison.
I know that. Thanks Lynn. Kaczynski however was actually investigated as being linked to the Cooper case, for a whole list of reasons not the least of which was agents wondered and brought it up. Kaczynski was newly arrived at his cabin in MT when the Cooper hijacking happened.
In any event Kaczynski was investigated for being DB Cooper - there must be many 302's about that. It's documented in people's books and I have a personal connection to this through a friend I went to college with -
Kaczynski was 29 years old in 1971 and didn't look anything like the drawings of Cooper. Also, Cooper had social skills and Kaczynski didn't. And Kaczynski was not investigated for anything until shortly before his arrest in 1996 (?).
all correct - which I have stated many times! You get an A. The Cooper case was unsolved in 1996 and still is today.
Kaczynski was from Chicago, Illinois and so had a Midwestern 'accent' - with 'get the show on the road' and several other Cooper phrases part of his native lexicon.
'After resigning from Berkeley, Kaczynski moved to his parents' home in Lombard, Illinois, then two years later, in 1971, to a remote cabin he had built outside Lincoln, Montana, where he could live a simple life with little money and without electricity or running water,[44] working odd jobs and receiving some financial support from his family.[9]'
In an interview after his arrest, he recalled being shocked on a hike to one of his favorite wild spots:[45]
" It's kind of rolling country, not flat, and when you get to the edge of it you find these ravines that cut very steeply in to cliff-like drop-offs and there was even a waterfall there. It was about a two days' hike from my cabin. That was the best spot until the summer of 1983. That summer there were too many people around my cabin so I decided I needed some peace. I went back to the plateau and when I got there I found they had put a road right through the middle of it ... You just can't imagine how upset I was. It was from that point on I decided that, rather than trying to acquire further wilderness skills, I would work on getting back at the system. Revenge. "
I can empathize with him in his response to development - I think many of us have had the experience of seeing a natural place we love irrevocably changed. I can't understand bombing people as a result (for even if you hate humans, how would it help?), but then social isolation does make some go mad.
Both "beat the system" and "get this show on the road" are those kind of common-ish expressions you know you've heard plenty, but if pressed, couldn't say for sure if you or the people around you tend to use. Sailshaw insisted SP had used the former expression when he knew him, and here you have TK using it. It's hard to say how common that expression is or ever was. It feels like one you see written more than hear in everyday discourse, but then it does refer to crime, cheating, or rule-bending specifically, so it's not an everyday word for most. [TBH, at our place we would more likely use "stick it to The Man", though usually in a joking, 70s throwback way. ;) ]
TK fails as Cooper based on age and almost every descriptive factor, and the crimes are very different - Cooper's was mainly a form of larceny, TK's terrorism, murder and attempted murder. But it is just possible Kaczynski, without being Cooper, was the writer of the linked "Cooper" letters. After all, his best-known m.o. is mail related, and he liked bombs and hated airlines , so he may well have taken note of the Cooper case during the year he was going off-grid. It's really hard to call; there are a lot of mentally ill people out there and - well, to quote Dire Straits, "Two men say they're Jesus; one of them must be wrong."
I don't believe Cooper himself wrote those letters - if all he wanted was to get away with $200,000, better to let the feds think him dead. More likely a random, mentally ill person wrote them, and moreover (as several letters do look like they have a common source) that person was nomadic. TK being or even meeting Cooper seems like a long shot, but I could totally see him admiring Cooper's "beating the system" and writing the letters to torment the cops.
Hating airlines in general and so passionately is fairly unusual (hating individual ones isn't, but even then passenger/ex-employee frustration doesn't get Kaczynski-level.) HOWEVER, we have no idea if Cooper shared that hatred. We know he had a grudge but not (as Tina asked) against NWO. That's the only thing we know about his grudge - that he had one. If TK were Cooper, what would he have to lose at this point confessing to it and increasing his personal notoriety? The crimes he refused an insanity plea for actually did kill people and could have resulted in the death penalty. And Cooper is just a much better story, if you're sitting in your cell bragging.
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I don't believe Cooper himself wrote those letters - if all he wanted was to get away with $200,000, better to let the feds think him dead. More likely a random, mentally ill person wrote them, and moreover (as several letters do look like they have a common source) that person was nomadic. TK being or even meeting Cooper seems like a long shot, but I could totally see him admiring Cooper's "beating the system" and writing the letters to torment the cops.
This is a good point. We've seen posts elsewhere from "someone" who believes Cooper buried the money at Tina Bar after the John Doe charge in 1976 so the FBI would think he was dead. That would be absolutely the opposite Cooper would be expected to do. By that time there was probably only one agent assigned to the case, and only dealing with evidence as it came in. Dropping money on the beach to be found would stir up a whole bunch of new activity with several agents and attract lots more attention. Not smart.
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When you read all these 302's it's no wonder they had enough. it was nothing but the same old same old. he looked like the sketch, had money etc.
Oh, it's insane. You have to take a breather when you've got people linking DBC to everyone from Kaczynski to Jon Benet Ramsay's killer.
Let's make one thing absolutely clear: the only reasons I have linked Cooper to Kaczynski is because there are factual links! 305 landed in Missoula Montana before going on to Portland! Kaczynski had a grudge with technology and airlines in particular - he killed several airline officials! Kaczynski designed and built bombs and used them in crimes! Kaczynski had a few like-minded associates around him. Kaczynski was living in Montana when the Cooper hijacking happened. And to make a long story short: the FBI wondered if Kaczynski or an associate of his was DB Cooper and they spent man-hours checking that possibility out!
Cooper made a strange reply to Tina when asked why he was doing this. He said he had a grudge, but not against your airlines. So with a reply like that, did he have a grudge against other airlines? His reply leaves the door open!
Kaczynski does not fit the physical profile very well, but did someone he knew or associated with? Did Kaczynski build the bomb for Cooper? Probably not by Tina's description, unless he bought all the parts?
So PLEASE GET YOUR FACTUAL HISTORY STRAIGHT when it comes to Kaczynski and the DB Cooper case.
Jon Benet Ramsay's killer? There is no known connection to the Cooper case. That is stuff for the Bruce Smith book!
I wasn't referring to you re: Kaczynski, georger. There was a weird run of comments - I want to say about a year ago, but who knows how long I've been down this rabbit hole - on Bruce's forum and there were all these people taking RB seriously and then these long rambling links to Zodiac, Kaczynski, JonBenet, basically every famous US crime over the last 40+ years. I had to stop reading comment threads ANYWHERE but on this forum. They were starting to make a certain obsessed ex look lucid by comparison.
I know that. Thanks Lynn. Kaczynski however was actually investigated as being linked to the Cooper case, for a whole list of reasons not the least of which was agents wondered and brought it up. Kaczynski was newly arrived at his cabin in MT when the Cooper hijacking happened.
In any event Kaczynski was investigated for being DB Cooper - there must be many 302's about that. It's documented in people's books and I have a personal connection to this through a friend I went to college with -
Kaczynski was 29 years old in 1971 and didn't look anything like the drawings of Cooper. Also, Cooper had social skills and Kaczynski didn't. And Kaczynski was not investigated for anything until shortly before his arrest in 1996 (?).
all correct - which I have stated many times! You get an A. The Cooper case was unsolved in 1996 and still is today.
Kaczynski was from Chicago, Illinois and so had a Midwestern 'accent' - with 'get the show on the road' and several other Cooper phrases part of his native lexicon.
'After resigning from Berkeley, Kaczynski moved to his parents' home in Lombard, Illinois, then two years later, in 1971, to a remote cabin he had built outside Lincoln, Montana, where he could live a simple life with little money and without electricity or running water,[44] working odd jobs and receiving some financial support from his family.[9]'
In an interview after his arrest, he recalled being shocked on a hike to one of his favorite wild spots:[45]
" It's kind of rolling country, not flat, and when you get to the edge of it you find these ravines that cut very steeply in to cliff-like drop-offs and there was even a waterfall there. It was about a two days' hike from my cabin. That was the best spot until the summer of 1983. That summer there were too many people around my cabin so I decided I needed some peace. I went back to the plateau and when I got there I found they had put a road right through the middle of it ... You just can't imagine how upset I was. It was from that point on I decided that, rather than trying to acquire further wilderness skills, I would work on getting back at the system. Revenge. "
I can empathize with him in his response to development - I think many of us have had the experience of seeing a natural place we love irrevocably changed. I can't understand bombing people as a result (for even if you hate humans, how would it help?), but then social isolation does make some go mad.
Both "beat the system" and "get this show on the road" are those kind of common-ish expressions you know you've heard plenty, but if pressed, couldn't say for sure if you or the people around you tend to use. Sailshaw insisted SP had used the former expression when he knew him, and here you have TK using it. It's hard to say how common that expression is or ever was. It feels like one you see written more than hear in everyday discourse, but then it does refer to crime, cheating, or rule-bending specifically, so it's not an everyday word for most. [TBH, at our place we would more likely use "stick it to The Man", though usually in a joking, 70s throwback way. ;) ]
TK fails as Cooper based on age and almost every descriptive factor, and the crimes are very different - Cooper's was mainly a form of larceny, TK's terrorism, murder and attempted murder. But it is just possible Kaczynski, without being Cooper, was the writer of the linked "Cooper" letters. After all, his best-known m.o. is mail related, and he liked bombs and hated airlines , so he may well have taken note of the Cooper case during the year he was going off-grid. It's really hard to call; there are a lot of mentally ill people out there and - well, to quote Dire Straits, "Two men say they're Jesus; one of them must be wrong."
I don't believe Cooper himself wrote those letters - if all he wanted was to get away with $200,000, better to let the feds think him dead. More likely a random, mentally ill person wrote them, and moreover (as several letters do look like they have a common source) that person was nomadic. TK being or even meeting Cooper seems like a long shot, but I could totally see him admiring Cooper's "beating the system" and writing the letters to torment the cops.
Hating airlines in general and so passionately is fairly unusual (hating individual ones isn't, but even then passenger/ex-employee frustration doesn't get Kaczynski-level.) HOWEVER, we have no idea if Cooper shared that hatred. We know he had a grudge but not (as Tina asked) against NWO. That's the only thing we know about his grudge - that he had one. If TK were Cooper, what would he have to lose at this point confessing to it and increasing his personal notoriety? The crimes he refused an insanity plea for actually did kill people and could have resulted in the death penalty. And Cooper is just a much better story, if you're sitting in your cell bragging.
Investigation cleared Kaczynski of being Cooper. But, there were like-minded persons in MT at the time who might have been sympathetic to Kaczynski's feelings, living a narrow existence in need of money ...
But, so far as I know Kaczynski had no collaborators, much less any real friends he might have been in a conspiracy with... ? Cooper's comment to Tina about not having a grudge 'against your airlines' vs. Kaczynski's grudge against airlines, dovetails. And it dovetails during the period of the NWA hijacking.
This is just a thought experiment - an archetype.
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I don't believe Cooper himself wrote those letters - if all he wanted was to get away with $200,000, better to let the feds think him dead. More likely a random, mentally ill person wrote them, and moreover (as several letters do look like they have a common source) that person was nomadic. TK being or even meeting Cooper seems like a long shot, but I could totally see him admiring Cooper's "beating the system" and writing the letters to torment the cops.
This is a good point. We've seen posts elsewhere from "someone" who believes Cooper buried the money at Tina Bar after the John Doe charge in 1976 so the FBI would think he was dead. That would be absolutely the opposite Cooper would be expected to do. By that time there was probably only one agent assigned to the case, and only dealing with evidence as it came in. Dropping money on the beach to be found would stir up a whole bunch of new activity with several agents and attract lots more attention. Not smart.
Tena Bar, the most I make of it is the money got there somehow, wound up in the condition it did somehow, and nothing else wound up there. Cooper burying it briefly after the jump and leaving some behind by accident - may be possible, and Tina Bar has the advantage of being a marked spot in the area, not just a random clump of trees in the woods that would be hard to find again later; McCoy did hide his loot in a culvert for intended later retrieval. The more I think about it, the weirder it is that of all the places the money could have wound up in that wilderness and along that route, it wound up in a place that is publicly marked, easy to find. However, Cooper planting some years later to appear dead when they pretty much already thought he was dead and, as you say, had other fish to fry, would be poking a hornet's nest for no reason. That would be among the LEAST likely explanations, logically, of how the money wound up at TB. We don't know how the guy thought, really, so none of the explanations are impossible, right up to "Cooper taunted bear with loot, bear ate Cooper, used bills as toilet paper, some of it stuck to his butt and only dropped off at Tina Bar." Any stands I take on this case are not at TB, lol. >:D
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It's not illogical, georger. The mail m.o., the similar wording to one letter, and the rather unusual hatred of airlines en masse, certainly to that degree, plus the bomb (whether in DB's case real or not), plus the year of his dropping off the grid, make TK interesting. That's why the idea that he took an interest in the case and may have written letters here or there himself - off grid, nobody notices if he detours to various cities - may even have thought of himself, in some muddled way, as helping Cooper by setting red herrings - is not out of the question.
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Is there a detailed account of the Hahneman hijacking? I have the wikipedia article, but is there anything else? Perhaps a detailed magazine article somewhere?
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Is there a detailed account of the Hahneman hijacking? I have the wikipedia article, but is there anything else? Perhaps a detailed magazine article somewhere?
This article has some detail and names several people aboard if anyone is following up on Hahneman. He'd be a better fit for me if he hadn't used a gun, pulled the drama queen noose stuff, and been such a hothead overall, as well as being too short and having a distinguishing scar in easy view. We have it on record DBC was not a hothead - Tina's on-camera interview clearly said he was NEVER rude or cruel, including when he was impatient. Hahneman was cruel enough to not tell his blind wife he was out of prison - she had no idea where he was. Also, having been arrested in 1972, wouldn't the feds have looked HARD at him for Cooper? They wouldn't have released him and lost track of him. Apparently, they did eventually find his loot, with little comment about it other than it had been found. https://www.mcall.com/news/mc-xpm-1985-06-30-2464617-story.html According to this obit, he also had a scar on the back of his hand and was only 5'8". NEXT! His sons may be alive for interview. https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/136409100/frederick-william-hahneman
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IMHO, it's no different than McCoy with similarities. I tried to discuss it with fly but was accused of trying to discredit him? sadly, I put him in a different category now. it's getting harder and harder to discuss the case.
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What airlines flew from PDX to SEA in 1971? Did they all use 727's?
NWO
Pan Am
United
Eastern? Continental?
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What airlines flew from PDX to SEA in 1971? Did they all use 727's?
NWO
Pan Am
United
Eastern? Continental?
I think I can say that a 727 on the PDX to SEA leg was not the usual aircraft. 737s and DC-9 are more likely to have been the most common jet aircraft and there were probably still some propeller aircraft on the leg.
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Back to basics -
Parachute Assoc expert testifies about Cooper's jump.
Part II below next post...
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Back to basics -
Parachute Assoc expert testifies about Cooper's jump.
Part II ...
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Back to basics -
Parachute Assoc expert testifies about Cooper's jump.
Part II ...
Some comments about the two previous Georger posts.
The 120 MPH free-fall speed is the listed value for a skydiver in a stable spread position at sea level. For a skydiver in a head first free-fall, the listed value is 180 MPH at sea level. Presumably, the free-fall speed of a tumbling skydiver would be somewhere between these two values and I suspect it would be close to the 180 MPH value.
The atmosphere at Portland at the time of Cooper's jump was approximately two percent more dense than the standard atmospheric model. This is due to above standard sea level pressure and below standard temperature at both sea level and 10,000 feet.
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What airlines flew from PDX to SEA in 1971? Did they all use 727's?
NWO
Pan Am
United
Eastern? Continental?
I lived in Portland in 1971 and most of my life. My Ex wife worked for Hughes Air West and they flew mostly 727’s back then. I know they flew out of Portland and most of the West. I got married in Reno and flew Hughes Air West.
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Back to basics -
Parachute Assoc expert testifies about Cooper's jump.
Part II below next post...
Once again I see a response that mentions something I’ve been saying for a long time. I never went hunting without a compass and a altimeter and I think it’s very likely that Cooper might have brought along the same. He did bring along a bag which must have included a knife which he used to cut parachute cord. I would think he brought along some important items he’d need in his jump into darkness and wilderness perhaps. A knife, a compass, an altimeter , a flashlight, extra wool socks and perhaps some jerky ! So many post that there’s no way he’d have any clue as to his altitude but an altimeter would certainly help !
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What airlines flew from PDX to SEA in 1971? Did they all use 727's?
NWO
Pan Am
United
Eastern? Continental?
I lived in Portland in 1971 and most of my life. My Ex wife worked for Hughes Air West and they flew mostly 727’s back then. I know they flew out of Portland and most of the West. I got married in Reno and flew Hughes Air West.
The question was related to the Portland to Seattle route. It is unlikely that Hughes Air West, or any other airline, had more than minimal service on that route using 727s. Economics is the reasons. The hijacked airliner probably had a capacity of 100+ passengers but only 30+ passengers were on board which is a load factor of 30+ percent and no airliner is going to make a profit with 727s on that segment with that load factor. And note that this was a busy Thanksgiving travel day.
The Hughes Air West, NWA, and others who flew 727s into or out of Portland probably had destinations such as San Francisco, Los Angeles, Denver, Minneapolis, or other routes that were lengthy enough and had enough passenger traffic to earn a profit.
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Back to basics -
Parachute Assoc expert testifies about Cooper's jump.
Part II below next post...
Once again I see a response that mentions something I’ve been saying for a long time. I never went hunting without a compass and a altimeter and I think it’s very likely that Cooper might have brought along the same. He did bring along a bag which must have included a knife which he used to cut parachute cord. I would think he brought along some important items he’d need in his jump into darkness and wilderness perhaps. A knife, a compass, an altimeter , a flashlight, extra wool socks and perhaps some jerky ! So many post that there’s no way he’d have any clue as to his altitude but an altimeter would certainly help !
A pressure altimeter (as opposed to a radar altimeter) does not provide terrain clearance. Consequently, it would have been of little or no use to Cooper. The knife could have been an ordinary pocket knife such as some people routinely carried. But it would need to be very sharp since shroud lines are difficult to cut even with a knife.
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Back to basics -
Parachute Assoc expert testifies about Cooper's jump.
Part II below next post...
This is fantastic stuff, georger, and thank you. It really eliminates most of the question of whether an experienced jumper could have made the jump wearing loafers and in those conditions, into that terrain. Was particularly surprised when the jumper said they could have survived a jump into water.
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What airlines flew from PDX to SEA in 1971? Did they all use 727's?
NWO
Pan Am
United
Eastern? Continental?
I lived in Portland in 1971 and most of my life. My Ex wife worked for Hughes Air West and they flew mostly 727’s back then. I know they flew out of Portland and most of the West. I got married in Reno and flew Hughes Air West.
The question was related to the Portland to Seattle route. It is unlikely that Hughes Air West, or any other airline, had more than minimal service on that route using 727s. Economics is the reasons. The hijacked airliner probably had a capacity of 100+ passengers but only 30+ passengers were on board which is a load factor of 30+ percent and no airliner is going to make a profit with 727s on that segment with that load factor. And note that this was a busy Thanksgiving travel day.
The Hughes Air West, NWA, and others who flew 727s into or out of Portland probably had destinations such as San Francisco, Los Angeles, Denver, Minneapolis, or other routes that were lengthy enough and had enough passenger traffic to earn a profit.
Robert, you of course are more of an authority on fuel consumption on commercial airlines than myself ! Although I spent 6 years in refueling in Ore Air National Guard, my expertise was in mechanics and I was only mediocre at that. I was only stating that Hughes Air West flew Pdx to Seattle back in the 70’s. Whether they were DC 9 or 727
I have no idea !
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Back to basics -
Parachute Assoc expert testifies about Cooper's jump.
Part II below next post...
This is fantastic stuff, georger, and thank you. It really eliminates most of the question of whether an experienced jumper could have made the jump wearing loafers and in those conditions, into that terrain. Was particularly surprised when the jumper said they could have survived a jump into water.
Himmelsbach and Tosaw weren't buying - ;)
Yes, this file caught my eye. I have more just as interesting so will post em as I can read, sort, and organize them. I have found 2 more Ckret posts (2007-08) quoting Rzk, two 302's citing Rzk's lights testimony, and more ... stay tuned.
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Has anyone heard of this movie. a new member having trouble navigating this forum emailed this question...
"Did the FBI ever investigate the TV show "Ripcord" (1961 - 1964) was there an episode w/ them jumping from a 727?"
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Has anyone heard of this movie. a new member having trouble navigating this forum emailed this question...
"Did the FBI ever investigate the TV show "Ripcord" (1961 - 1964) was there an episode w/ them jumping from a 727?"
Apparently the show was produced from 1961 to 1963. The inaugural flight of the 727 was February 9, 1963, it entered service February 1, 1964. Therefore, it seems all but certain that the show did not feature anyone jumping from a 727.
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Has anyone heard of this movie. a new member having trouble navigating this forum emailed this question...
"Did the FBI ever investigate the TV show "Ripcord" (1961 - 1964) was there an episode w/ them jumping from a 727?"
Apparently the show was produced from 1961 to 1963. The inaugural flight of the 727 was February 9, 1963, it entered service February 1, 1964. Therefore, it seems all but certain that the show did not feature anyone jumping from a 727.
Uh, the 727 was designed and tested with a sizeable HOLE in the back. The hole could be opened and closed. Things can pass through HOLES whether the HOLE is in motion or stationary on the ground. Its one of those mysteries of the Maldum Fornax.
The same principle works in reverse osmosis! 'Fast' Eddy O. Pasternak of Baltimore researched this in the 1970s. He now is retired from Standard Oil. All holes are not equal! Holes in some materials will pass things one direction but not in the reverse direction. Its one of those mysteries of the Maldum Fornax.
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Has anyone heard of this movie. a new member having trouble navigating this forum emailed this question...
"Did the FBI ever investigate the TV show "Ripcord" (1961 - 1964) was there an episode w/ them jumping from a 727?"
Apparently the show was produced from 1961 to 1963. The inaugural flight of the 727 was February 9, 1963, it entered service February 1, 1964. Therefore, it seems all but certain that the show did not feature anyone jumping from a 727.
Uh, the 727 was designed and tested with a sizeable HOLE in the back. The hole could be opened and closed. Things can pass through HOLES whether the HOLE is in motion or stationary on the ground. Its one of those mysteries of the Maldum Fornax.
The same principle works in reverse osmosis! 'Fast' Eddy O. Pasternak of Baltimore researched this in the 1970s. He now is retired from Standard Oil. All holes are not equal! Holes in some materials will pass things one direction but not in the reverse direction. Its one of those mysteries of the Maldum Fornax.
Georger,
You posted several weeks ago that you had "experts" working on the placard problem and that they would expose EU and myself as frauds. Please hurry up and post their results. I can't hold my breath much longer waiting for the shoe to drop.
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Has anyone heard of this movie. a new member having trouble navigating this forum emailed this question...
"Did the FBI ever investigate the TV show "Ripcord" (1961 - 1964) was there an episode w/ them jumping from a 727?"
Apparently the show was produced from 1961 to 1963. The inaugural flight of the 727 was February 9, 1963, it entered service February 1, 1964. Therefore, it seems all but certain that the show did not feature anyone jumping from a 727.
Uh, the 727 was designed and tested with a sizeable HOLE in the back. The hole could be opened and closed. Things can pass through HOLES whether the HOLE is in motion or stationary on the ground. Its one of those mysteries of the Maldum Fornax.
The same principle works in reverse osmosis! 'Fast' Eddy O. Pasternak of Baltimore researched this in the 1970s. He now is retired from Standard Oil. All holes are not equal! Holes in some materials will pass things one direction but not in the reverse direction. Its one of those mysteries of the Maldum Fornax.
Georger,
You posted several weeks ago that you had "experts" working on the placard problem and that they would expose EU and myself as frauds. Please hurry up and post their results. I can't hold my breath much longer waiting for the shoe to drop.
Theek hai is choosane vaale par adhikaar milega.
ठीक है इस चूसने वाले पर अधिकार मिलेगा
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Resolved...
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Thanks for posting the interview with the USPA official Georger. I agree with most but not all of his answers.
My strongest disagreement is with his opinion about a water landing posing no particular problem. I STRONGLY disagree. It could very easily be fatal even for an experienced jumper. I met a Navy pilot who was also a very experienced skydiver (D license). When he had to eject from his plane over water in daylight, he thought that he'd do just fine. The reality was far different. The canopy collapsed over him in the water and he felt lucky to have survived. Confusion, disorientation and panic set in fast. He had an inflatable life vest and a packaged raft but had a difficult time deploying either. My water jumps were in sunny weather into warm water with plenty of support. Even so, it was very difficult to get out of the harness and away from the entangling mess of my canopy and suspension lines. I needed good light to figure my way out. At night in cold water I am not so sure how things would have turned out.
My second point of disagreement is with the opinion that a ten-second freefall delay would be a good idea. NOPE! First it risks a spin. Second, it risks a terrain strike since the altitude above ground was not known to Cooper. Both these risks are completely eliminated by pulling right off the stairs. The chance of being spotted by chase planes or anyone else at night are very low. The canopy doesn't fully inflate until you are substantially below and behind the 727. The visible target is small and not illuminated.
The loafer shoes may not be such a big deal as long as they were not lost during the jump. Ankle support was thought to be a big deal in avoiding landing injuries. High top boots provided some but not much real support since there was nothing rigid or semi-rigid in the upper portion of the boot. The US Army developed ankle braces for paratroopers and bought tons of them. Allegedly sprains were reduced but the rate of fracture injury was relatively unchanged. The site of fractures on those wearing braces was simply moved upwards on the leg just above the top of the brace. Their use was discontinued and they were sold surplus by the thousands. You can still find brand new ones on eBay for a few bucks.
It was interesting where the interviewee ruled out smoke jumpers unless they were also skydivers. Sheridan Peterson was both. Still, to date, Sheridan is just a highly qualified candidate. Not one piece of evidence puts him on the plane. If he really wants to be definitively ruled out why not obtain and publish the results of the DNA work the FBI did? Third parties can't get it while he is alive, but he could.
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Thanks for posting the interview with the USPA official Georger. I agree with most but not all of his answers.
My strongest disagreement is with his opinion about a water landing posing no particular problem. I STRONGLY disagree. It could very easily be fatal even for an experienced jumper. I met a Navy pilot who was also a very experienced skydiver (D license). When he had to eject from his plane over water in daylight, he thought that he'd do just fine. The reality was far different. The canopy collapsed over him in the water and he felt lucky to have survived. Confusion, disorientation and panic set in fast. He had an inflatable life vest and a packaged raft but had a difficult time deploying either. My water jumps were in sunny weather into warm water with plenty of support. Even so, it was very difficult to get out of the harness and away from the entangling mess of my canopy and suspension lines. I needed good light to figure my way out. At night in cold water I am not so sure how things would have turned out.
My second point of disagreement is with the opinion that a ten-second freefall delay would be a good idea. NOPE! First it risks a spin. Second, it risks a terrain strike since the altitude above ground was not known to Cooper. Both these risks are completely eliminated by pulling right off the stairs. The chance of being spotted by chase planes or anyone else at night are very low. The canopy doesn't fully inflate until you are substantially below and behind the 727. The visible target is small and not illuminated.
The loafer shoes may not be such a big deal as long as they were not lost during the jump. Ankle support was thought to be a big deal in avoiding landing injuries. High top boots provided some but not much real support since there was nothing rigid or semi-rigid in the upper portion of the boot. The US Army developed ankle braces for paratroopers and bought tons of them. Allegedly sprains were reduced but the rate of fracture injury was relatively unchanged. The site of fractures on those wearing braces was simply moved upwards on the leg just above the top of the brace. Their use was discontinued and they were sold surplus by the thousands. You can still find brand new ones on eBay for a few bucks.
It was interesting where the interviewee ruled out smoke jumpers unless they were also skydivers. Sheridan Peterson was both. Still, to date, Sheridan is just a highly qualified candidate. Not one piece of evidence puts him on the plane. If he really wants to be definitively ruled out why not obtain and publish the results of the DNA work the FBI did? Third parties can't get it while he is alive, but he could.
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It appears Sheridan is not anxious to rule himself out of the Cooper case, or he might have taken the steps you lay out - a long time ago. Only he can explain his reasoning.
Presumably someone has SP's genetic profile from earlier testing. What we don't have are the partials the FBI supposedly has, and so far as I know there is no official statement saying SP was ruled out or what precisely ruled him out if that is the case. This uncertainty feeds speculation. Some people feed on uncertainty!
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It appears Sheridan is not anxious to rule himself out of the Cooper case, or he might have taken the steps you lay out - a long time ago. Only he can explain his reasoning.
A guy his age could be getting a kick out of the attention.
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I and many of my skydiver colleagues were kinda disappointed not to have been interviewed by the FBI in the aftermath of the Cooper skyjacking. Many jumpers made what I now think were false claims about being interviewed as possible suspects. All of us were surprised that Bill Dause (Lodi DZO) wasn't an immediate focus of FBI attention, but as details emerged it was clear that he did not fit the witness descriptions. Last year Bill got raided and searched by numerous federal agencies. “Everything is going nice and smooth,” owner Bill Dause said Wednesday. “And (the agents) walked in the door right after we opened, about 9 o'clock in the morning, guns drawn and yelling and screaming -- just like you see on TV.”
The purpose wasn't clear but I doubt that it had any connection with NORJAK. https://www.kcra.com/article/owner-im-at-a-loss-why-fbi-raided-lodi-parachute-center/15952423
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Thanks for posting the interview with the USPA official Georger. I agree with most but not all of his answers.
My strongest disagreement is with his opinion about a water landing posing no particular problem. I STRONGLY disagree. It could very easily be fatal even for an experienced jumper.
Matt L'Hommedieu (SEAL, USAF PJ, and Smokejumper) told me that if he was planning on doing it, he would want to land in the water. Specifically the Columbia River.
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Thanks for posting the interview with the USPA official Georger. I agree with most but not all of his answers.
My strongest disagreement is with his opinion about a water landing posing no particular problem. I STRONGLY disagree. It could very easily be fatal even for an experienced jumper.
Matt L'Hommedieu (SEAL, USAF PJ, and Smokejumper) told me that if he was planning on doing it, he would want to land in the water. Specifically the Columbia River.
Matt would presumably want to be wearing an insulated water survival suit when he did that. Even in the middle of the summer, the Columbia is basically just recently melted ice. And that is especially so in the Portland area. Based on my personal childhood experience, the water was extremely uncomfortable even 200 miles upstream from Tina Bar.
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For what it's worth, my father says he preferred water landings as well. The landings are a lot softer, you're not getting injured, and even he (a New Mexico native) was able to swim while wearing gear. Caveat being my father was an elite military athlete and trained for months for his water jumps.
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With a non-steerable C9 round canopy you wouldn't have had much control over landing in or out of water. You were basically going where the wind took you.
SEALS, PJs and other special ops jumpers have way more training in water landings than ordinary sport jumpers do. I know PJs make night ocean jumps as part of recurrent training and I assume SEALS do as well.
Most sport jumpers make a couple of daylight highly supported water landings and that's the extent of their training. If you think water landings are easily survivable, read about this tragic skydiving accident. 17 skydivers exited a WW2 B 25 bomber through cloud cover to find themselves unexpectedly over Lake Erie. The awful part is that there were many boats in their landing area but few rendered assistance. The non assisting boaters thought it was a planned jump and assumed some arrangements had already been made for boat pickups. Two jumpers were picked up, 15 others drowned.
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Mark, I have quite the collection of anecdotes from WWII about landing in water, especially from my research involving Denmark. And yes, they were lethal. Even with a Mae West, most RAF crews who parachuted into water died. Most from exposure. A few get picked up by fisherman. A few swim ashore. But mostly, landing in the sea was a death sentence. I tend to think Cooper would have died had he landed in the Columbia, whereas my father says he would want to land in the river. I'm an avid swimmer, but I haven't had the courage to swim with clothes and weights in cold water... yet.
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I wonder though if there would be a different between a soldier landing in the water vs Cooper. the soldier has a lot more gear attached to him? don't know if that would tilt the scale?
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I wonder though if there would be a different between a soldier landing in the water vs Cooper. the soldier has a lot more gear attached to him? don't know if that would tilt the scale?
Lots of guys drowned during the Normandy invasion, but they weren't prepared (for the most part) for water landings.
In my opinion, you can't put a number on it. If Cooper was Joe Hobo Alcoholic washed up loadmaster, I would say there's no way he could survive a Columbia landing. If Cooper was an elite water polo player who loved skiing, skydiving and private insurrections against Communist regimes... different story.
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I wonder though if there would be a different between a soldier landing in the water vs Cooper. the soldier has a lot more gear attached to him? don't know if that would tilt the scale?
Paratroopers who jumped at night during the Normandy invasion carried about 100 pounds of equipment. Their only flotation gear was a Mae West type device. If they landed off shore their chance of survival was zero. If they landed in one of the flooded areas (the Germans had flooded as many fields as possible), their chance of survival was still extremely low.
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I guess it could come down to how trained you are and how you would act...
“The next emergency landing I will cover is the WATER LANDING. If you are drifting towards a body of water, immediately look then slip away. If you cannot avoid the water, look below you to ensure there are no fellow jumpers and lower your equipment. Next, jettison your helmet, making a mental note of where it lands. Activate the quick release in the waistband. Disconnect the left connector snap and rotate the reserve parachute to the right. Seat yourself well into the saddle and activate the quick release in the chest strap completely removing the chest strap from the chest strap friction adapter. Regain canopy control. Prior to entering the water, assume a landing attitude by keeping your feet and knees together, knees slightly bent and place your hands on both leg strap ejector snaps. When the balls of your feet make contact with the water, activate both leg strap ejector snaps, arch your back, throw your arms above your head and slide out of the parachute harness. Be prepared to execute a proper PLF if the water is shallow.
Swim upwind, or upstream, away from the canopy. If the canopy comes down on top of you, locate a seam, and follow it to the skirt of the canopy.”
So basically all your equipment is attached to you in such away you can lower and jettison it from the parachute harness in seconds. It's designed that way so you don't land on something harder and bulky during your Parachute Landing Fall (no skydiver style standing landings, you hit and let yourself roll onto your side and back to absorb the impact, you do NOT want to do that on top of your rucksack lol). So you lower your equipment and activate a couple quick releases (if you only have one in the harness and it fails….) and activate the last straps as you splash down so ideally you just slide on out of the harness and swim away.
Contrary to popular belief it's not really all that hard to swim or even float in uniform and boots. Heck we've trained swimming in pools with all that plus load bearing gear and rucksack. If you pack your ruck the right way it'll even float! Though thankfully after 9 years in the Army, including 3 deployments and 26 jumps the only time I've ever had to do that was at a pool specifically training for that.
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What's especially difficult is exiting your harness if there is no light or very little light. You have to disconnect three connectors, one on each leg strap and one on the chest strap. The stock Navy NB 6 and NB 8 harnesses (for some reason I cannot fathom) did NOT have Capewell riser releases so you are tethered to a sinking canopy unless and until you can get out of your harness. USAF harnesses had Capewells, but the Navy ones did not even though a Navy pilot was more likely to end up in the water where a quick riser release could give a valuable survival advantage.
My guess is that if Cooper went into the Columbia at night more than a few feet offshore, he drowned.
I think a good swimmer could cover some distance wearing only the harness, but if you are still connected to the canopy you aint goin nowhere.
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Sounds like you need to put your harness on and jump in the pool and see how difficult is it to get off?
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I have done it successfully a few times for my D license daylight warm water jumps, but I wonder how successful I would have been at night with little or no illumination. Not so easy in cold water at night. If you get fouled in your canopy and or suspension lines (not uncommon in water jumps) you are unlikely to find your way out of the mess in the dark.
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It appears to rely on experience and how each person would act under stress. odds are if you have never done it the odds drop. panic sets in quick like being in a car the goes into the water.
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How about no parachute....
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrlrylPAi6k
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Bill Cole from Canada did the first chuteless jump and others followed. It's insanely risky, so much can go wrong.
There have been some frauds too, a chuteless wingsuit water landing is on YouTube. It's fake. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2xmAWS4akE
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Fake? How so?
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The way the landing is shown without multiple angles and how it glides across the water looks fake. I can't imagine maintaining his form without flipping or bouncing off the water vs gliding in perfect like an airplane landing. the comments have also been removed stopping people from reading it's fake.
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The way the landing is shown without multiple angles and how it glides across the water looks fake. I can't imagine maintaining his form without flipping or bouncing off the water vs gliding in perfect like an airplane landing. the comments have also been removed stopping people from reading it's fake.
Daredevil or not, no man jumps from any height and shoots for a balls-first landing. Gotta be fake.
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Hmmm...was he wearing any... protection?
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Today's software or movie software has a lot of things you can do. back in the day it was called masking. today, you can outline something and put into another part of a video. a lot of ghost video's are made like this video. this was two separate video's put into one.
Reading further it appears to have been a publicity stunt to promote "Wingman" body wash products. he also jumps with shoes on and later in the video you can see he has no shoes..
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So far, every FBI document seems to confirm: Unsub left the plane at 8:11pm or so, and that the plane was near Ariel at this time.
Now what?
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Here are a couple of questions related to Canada:
1. Does anyone on this site know when the Canadian Thanksgiving Day was locked into the second Monday in October?
2. Does anyone know what the normal commercial banking hours, as well as any governmental banks where money can be withdrawn, are in the eastern provinces of Canada?
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Nope. All I know are Loonies and Toonies. And that my ex in BC does NOT want to see me or hear from me.
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Nope. All I know are Loonies and Toonies. And that my ex in BC does NOT want to see me or hear from me.
You must not be paying alimony.
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Nope. Nor am I receiving any.
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Here are a couple of questions related to Canada:
1. Does anyone on this site know when the Canadian Thanksgiving Day was locked into the second Monday in October?
2. Does anyone know what the normal commercial banking hours, as well as any governmental banks where money can be withdrawn, are in the eastern provinces of Canada?
Robert: "On January 31, 1957, the Governor General of Canada Vincent Massey issued a proclamation stating: "A Day of General Thanksgiving to Almighty God for the bountiful harvest with which Canada has been blessed – to be observed on the second Monday in October" [Wikipedia}. Before then it had generally been the 2nd or 3rd week but moved around.
Will dig into the banking hours.
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Here are a couple of questions related to Canada:
1. Does anyone on this site know when the Canadian Thanksgiving Day was locked into the second Monday in October?
2. Does anyone know what the normal commercial banking hours, as well as any governmental banks where money can be withdrawn, are in the eastern provinces of Canada?
The current banking hours seem to be anywhere between 8:30 am and 6 pm, though hours vary widely. Most are M-Th 10-4 (ish) with later hours on Fridays, usually till 6. Some branches are open Saturday for a few hours but things won't clear till Monday usually. Closed on stat holidays, ATMs available all the time for most branches. I have no idea what those hours would have been in 1971, I seem to remember some branches open for ex. loans until later. Certainly no later than 9. Mom always banked well before dinner at 5 or 6 ish so I imagine most closed around 4. Looked through some old newspapers, no ads mentioned hours of specific branches bur may try some more later.
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I spent a number of months in Canada, circa 1969-1970, to see if it was a good place to live... I didn't go to many banks then since I didn't have any money, but it seemed like they were on the American schedule of Mon-Fri, 9-3 pm. Closed Saturdays and Sundays.
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Here are a couple of questions related to Canada:
1. Does anyone on this site know when the Canadian Thanksgiving Day was locked into the second Monday in October?
2. Does anyone know what the normal commercial banking hours, as well as any governmental banks where money can be withdrawn, are in the eastern provinces of Canada?
The current banking hours seem to be anywhere between 8:30 am and 6 pm, though hours vary widely. Most are M-Th 10-4 (ish) with later hours on Fridays, usually till 6. Some branches are open Saturday for a few hours but things won't clear till Monday usually. Closed on stat holidays, ATMs available all the time for most branches. I have no idea what those hours would have been in 1971, I seem to remember some branches open for ex. loans until later. Certainly no later than 9. Mom always banked well before dinner at 5 or 6 ish so I imagine most closed around 4. Looked through some old newspapers, no ads mentioned hours of specific branches bur may try some more later.
I have some additional questions and comments which I will send to you by PM in the next day or so. I would like to keep that part of the discussion offline for the present time.
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Anyone seen the book
King of the Midnight Blue by Darrell Bob Houston?
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Nope. What's it about?
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DB Houston had a serious crush on Tina, too. I love this guy....
Doug Perry wrote about him for the Oregonian in 2018. How did you hear about this, Marty?
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DB Houston had a serious crush on Tina, too. I love this guy....
Doug Perry wrote about him for the Oregonian in 2018. How did you hear about this, Marty?
Latest FBI documents just released... They had a clipping by him and it mentioned his book on the subject. Zero copies on Amazon. Zero on ABEbooks. It would be one of the first books on DB Cooper and by local journalist... it should be an interesting resource.
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DB Houston had a serious crush on Tina, too. I love this guy....
Doug Perry wrote about him for the Oregonian in 2018. How did you hear about this, Marty?
Latest FBI documents just released... They had a clipping by him and it mentioned his book on the subject. Zero copies on Amazon. Zero on ABEbooks. It would be one of the first books on DB Cooper and by local journalist... it should be an interesting resource.
Who are we talking about here? That was in love with Tina? Wrote a book? Found a parachute? A Cooper fan?
John Glen ? – found parachute back in 1972 on Mt Hood ? was judged not Cooper’s.
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It's a book... Probably nothing to it, but it sounds interesting...
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It's a book... Probably nothing to it, but it sounds interesting...
A John Glen ? – found parachute back in 1972 on Mt Hood ? was judged not Cooper’s. This guy is real.
Glen or Glenn, was a serious Cooper investigator. Launched dives in the Columbia independent of Tosaw looking for Cooper artifacts. He talked to crew members. He wanted to resolve Ariel landing vs Columbia landing but never could ... he has a story.
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Georger, the use of the pronouns "he, his, him" refer to the last male name mentioned. Hence, when Marty says "Latest FBI documents just released... They had a clipping by him..." the gentleman we are talking about is DB Houston.
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Well, now I want to hear about this Glen character too...
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Me, too.
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Well, now I want to hear about this Glen character too...
will get to him - have a long list of 30+ people, in addition to Tosaw!, most independent searchers, who explored the Columbia and its environs from Feb 1980 to about 2003, looking for anything Cooper. Glen was highly motivated. He searched a number of areas in Washington. He knew others who were searching. Many of these guys communicated at various times to coordinate their efforts. Glen rushed to the scene after Hicks found the placard. Interesting people with stories to tell. ................ all of this for a future post.
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This post is in relation to the conversation being had on the Clues,Documents, and Evidence thread today. Isn't there some significance to the fact that Cooper chose to jump in the dark? He could have hijacked the earlier flight and jumped while it was still light outside yet he chose the latter flight (knowing it would be dark when he jumped). Would you (anyone) make that choice to jump in that area after dark without being familiar with the area? I just personally think there is some significance to the choice he made in regard to jumping after dark.
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This post is in relation to the conversation being had on the Clues,Documents, and Evidence thread today. Isn't there some significance to the fact that Cooper chose to jump in the dark? He could have hijacked the earlier flight and jumped while it was still light outside yet he chose the latter flight (knowing it would be dark when he jumped). Would you (anyone) make that choice to jump in that area after dark without being familiar with the area? I just personally think there is some significance to the choice he made in regard to jumping after dark.
Once the airliner climbed out of SEATAC and got above the clouds and overcast, there is absolutely no way that Cooper could have known his geographical location within 20 or 30 miles. His obvious intent was to jump near Seattle shortly after take off but that didn't work out. So Cooper was jumping blind and had no idea of the landscape or elevation of the terrain that was under him when he jumped.
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What other flight path were they going to fly until they were done with their calculations? There was a time early in the flight when they weren't sure they would have enough fuel to make Reno. Until they were sure what other path would they take? Why couldn't he have known this? Given the orders to fly with the stairs down, the flaps at 15 or 30 degrees, altitude at 10,000 feet, speed around 170 mph, and head south, what other flight path were they going to fly? (at least until the calculations were done) You don't think he could have anticipated this?
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This post is in relation to the conversation being had on the Clues,Documents, and Evidence thread today. Isn't there some significance to the fact that Cooper chose to jump in the dark? He could have hijacked the earlier flight and jumped while it was still light outside yet he chose the latter flight (knowing it would be dark when he jumped). Would you (anyone) make that choice to jump in that area after dark without being familiar with the area? I just personally think there is some significance to the choice he made in regard to jumping after dark.
Once the airliner climbed out of SEATAC and got above the clouds and overcast, there is absolutely no way that Cooper could have known his geographical location within 20 or 30 miles. His obvious intent was to jump near Seattle shortly after take off but that didn't work out. So Cooper was jumping blind and had no idea of the landscape or elevation of the terrain that was under him when he jumped.
This is debatable. 30 miles? 10 miles maybe.
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If Cooper planed on jumping early then he only had minutes to see the terrain. The plane levels off at 7,000 early in the flight. The ceiling was 5,000.
The Tacoma comment of 20 minutes..was he talking about air or ground.
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What other flight path were they going to fly until they were done with their calculations? There was a time early in the flight when they weren't sure they would have enough fuel to make Reno. Until they were sure what other path would they take? Why couldn't he have known this? Given the orders to fly with the stairs down, the flaps at 15 or 30 degrees, altitude at 10,000 feet, speed around 170 mph, and head south, what other flight path were they going to fly? (at least until the calculations were done) You don't think he could have anticipated this?
After being told that Cooper would probably blow up the aircraft when he jumped, Rataczak suggested that they climb above the overcast and then fly out over the Pacific Ocean and stay there until he jumped. Do you think Cooper could have anticipated that?
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As per Robert99's last post... Do you really think anyone took his suggestion seriously? It was quickly shot down by his superior.
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As per Robert99's last post... Do you really think anyone took his suggestion seriously? It was quickly shot down by his superior.
Hell yes!
Do you understand that Cooper blowing up the airliner could result in the deaths of not just the flight crew but a lot of people on the ground from the falling debris? This is probably the main reason that the flight crew would NEVER fly over the city of Portland when they could easily stay west of Portland and shorten their flight route by a few miles and a minute or two of time.
Anyone who suggests that the flight path showing the airliner flying over Portland is correct doesn't understand what was happening!
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That was speculation. Cooper never made that claim.
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Why was the suggestion so quickly shot down? If that was the case why not stay to the east of Portland? Why not stay close to the mountain range and follow along side it? Not many people below you and there is a highway close if you need to make an emergency landing. I think the bigger issue (at least until the calculations were all done) was whether they could even make it to Reno and where to make a landing if they were not able to make it. How many airports between Portland and Reno had a runway long enough for a 727 to land on? (remember we are talking 1971) I would say none.
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I didn't say anything about landing between Seattle and Portland. I said between Portland and Reno.
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I didn't say anything about landing between Seattle and Portland. I said between Portland and Reno.
And I said "between Seattle and Portland or anywhere else"!
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I'm a little busy at the moment and will address this problem soon. In the mean time I have locked the thread.
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The idea of i'm right and you are wrong will never prove anything. I know engineers and pilots that disagree with a western path. One has to wonder why the pilots failed to say they flew a straight line down to Portland after seeing the flight path. Nobody on this board knows what the pilots really did without a one on one interview.
We need to discuss the case minus the bullshit. We can go argue with Blevins all day long. He wants to discuss suspects except his. He fails to answer to the lies recorded on that thread.
We have some new things to look at and those are in motion at this very moment. Leta deal with the problems and let the DZ whine away....
Lets work the problem vs creating them!
Shutter
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Prospector:
How do you qualify DB Cooper's knowledge of the 727?
I say it was top-secret level, since he knew more about the plane and how to skydive from it than the pilots or anyone in flight ops at Northwest Orient.
Others, though, claim he could have learned everything he needed to know to steal Flight 305/or demonstrated during his skyjacking escapade - by spending fifteen minutes at the employee cafeteria at Boeing Field.
What say you?
To me, Cooper's unique knowledge is perhaps the most important clue in the case - and the most controversial.
Criminal intent is, as I understand it, to be the most difficult part of a criminal case to prove.
With regards to the 727 issue, we can assume that he intended to hijack an aircraft because he went through the motions of preparing an explosive device, or what appeared to be an explosive device prior to boarding the aircraft. We can assume also that he intended to hijack a 727 specifically (he confirmed 727 at the ticket desk). We can assume that it was not a suicide mission (he wanted money most likely to spend and parachutes to escape). So ----- lets’ assume he knew that it was possible to successfully jump from a 727 given the flight parameters dictated to the flight crew. By all accounts clandestine knowledge in 1971.
Now if there is intent in all of that, unless it was some kind of ruse, he had knowledge that a successful jump was possible but did not know how to deploy the aft stairs in-flight. This suggests that he was a grunt that did the jump when a signal was given, not a jumpmaster or someone with the operational knowledge required to deploy the stairs. Which, if I have it right, it is a rather simple procedure that requires knowledge, but not an advanced technical skill set.
I would think with the level of knowledge and skill required to plan (intent) and execute the heist, he would have bought a coffee for someone that could inform him the procedure to deploy the aft stairs.
So would I prospector. It doesn’t make sense that he wouldn’t of done his homework on the aspect of how to lower the aft stairs if he didn’t have first hand knowledge but if you look at it from the perspective that he knew exactly how to lower them and cooper was a smart guy so you’d think he would be concerned that demonstrating his knowledge of the aft stairs being able to be lowered in flight couple with knowing how to lower them would be a huge tell. Also if cooper was a grunt who just jumped from the plane and had stairs lowered for him in Vietnam although there is no evidence of this from a commercial 727 only the SAT modified one with no aft stairs then how would cooper know the flap settings and how you had to fly the plane?
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What stairs would be lowered for someone in Vietnam?
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What stairs would be lowered for someone in Vietnam?
People claim that commercial 727’s with aft stairs were used as jump planes in Vietnam.
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?
Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.
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Prospector:
How do you qualify DB Cooper's knowledge of the 727?
I say it was top-secret level, since he knew more about the plane and how to skydive from it than the pilots or anyone in flight ops at Northwest Orient.
Others, though, claim he could have learned everything he needed to know to steal Flight 305/or demonstrated during his skyjacking escapade - by spending fifteen minutes at the employee cafeteria at Boeing Field.
What say you?
To me, Cooper's unique knowledge is perhaps the most important clue in the case - and the most controversial.
Criminal intent is, as I understand it, to be the most difficult part of a criminal case to prove.
With regards to the 727 issue, we can assume that he intended to hijack an aircraft because he went through the motions of preparing an explosive device, or what appeared to be an explosive device prior to boarding the aircraft. We can assume also that he intended to hijack a 727 specifically (he confirmed 727 at the ticket desk). We can assume that it was not a suicide mission (he wanted money most likely to spend and parachutes to escape). So ----- lets’ assume he knew that it was possible to successfully jump from a 727 given the flight parameters dictated to the flight crew. By all accounts clandestine knowledge in 1971.
Now if there is intent in all of that, unless it was some kind of ruse, he had knowledge that a successful jump was possible but did not know how to deploy the aft stairs in-flight. This suggests that he was a grunt that did the jump when a signal was given, not a jumpmaster or someone with the operational knowledge required to deploy the stairs. Which, if I have it right, it is a rather simple procedure that requires knowledge, but not an advanced technical skill set.
I would think with the level of knowledge and skill required to plan (intent) and execute the heist, he would have bought a coffee for someone that could inform him the procedure to deploy the aft stairs.
So would I prospector. It doesn’t make sense that he wouldn’t of done his homework on the aspect of how to lower the aft stairs if he didn’t have first hand knowledge but if you look at it from the perspective that he knew exactly how to lower them and cooper was a smart guy so you’d think he would be concerned that demonstrating his knowledge of the aft stairs being able to be lowered in flight couple with knowing how to lower them would be a huge tell. Also if cooper was a grunt who just jumped from the plane and had stairs lowered for him in Vietnam although there is no evidence of this from a commercial 727 only the SAT modified one with no aft stairs then how would cooper know the flap settings and how you had to fly the plane?
Cooper jumped at a speed of about 195 Knots (or 225 MPH). Paratroopers typically make static line jumps at about 140 Knots. I don't see anything here to suggest that Cooper was particularly knowledgeable about parachuting.
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?
Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.
well, you must have different docs than I do - there is no record of Cooper asking anyone to lower the stairs from the cockpit ... to be sure the issue came up, after Cooper remarked to Tina the stairs could be lowered from the cockpit after the plane was airborne, but no record he asked the pilot to do it! Tina may have relayed his comment to the pilot and that may have started an exchange - if it did we dont have the details of that except that the pilot commented about it to Flt Ops. There is no record of the pilot telling Tina 'Tell the hijacker we dont have controls in the cockpit to lower the stairs from here . . . '
For one thing, Cooper never talked directly to the cockpit during that period of time: 18:21- 18:38. I am referring to both the GG docs, the PI Transcript, and the crew interviews.
Cite your passage where Cooper asks the Pilot to lower the stairs, NickyB. :rofl:
Here's the two passages from which all the gobblewobble and blowfarb comes from. *Note that one of these passages is between the Pilot and the Ground Control, not between Cooper and the pilot. Again, keep track of the fact everything for and from Cooper is being mediated by ... Tina Mucklow.
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Prospector:
How do you qualify DB Cooper's knowledge of the 727?
I say it was top-secret level, since he knew more about the plane and how to skydive from it than the pilots or anyone in flight ops at Northwest Orient.
Others, though, claim he could have learned everything he needed to know to steal Flight 305/or demonstrated during his skyjacking escapade - by spending fifteen minutes at the employee cafeteria at Boeing Field.
What say you?
To me, Cooper's unique knowledge is perhaps the most important clue in the case - and the most controversial.
Criminal intent is, as I understand it, to be the most difficult part of a criminal case to prove.
With regards to the 727 issue, we can assume that he intended to hijack an aircraft because he went through the motions of preparing an explosive device, or what appeared to be an explosive device prior to boarding the aircraft. We can assume also that he intended to hijack a 727 specifically (he confirmed 727 at the ticket desk). We can assume that it was not a suicide mission (he wanted money most likely to spend and parachutes to escape). So ----- lets’ assume he knew that it was possible to successfully jump from a 727 given the flight parameters dictated to the flight crew. By all accounts clandestine knowledge in 1971.
Now if there is intent in all of that, unless it was some kind of ruse, he had knowledge that a successful jump was possible but did not know how to deploy the aft stairs in-flight. This suggests that he was a grunt that did the jump when a signal was given, not a jumpmaster or someone with the operational knowledge required to deploy the stairs. Which, if I have it right, it is a rather simple procedure that requires knowledge, but not an advanced technical skill set.
I would think with the level of knowledge and skill required to plan (intent) and execute the heist, he would have bought a coffee for someone that could inform him the procedure to deploy the aft stairs.
So would I prospector. It doesn’t make sense that he wouldn’t of done his homework on the aspect of how to lower the aft stairs if he didn’t have first hand knowledge but if you look at it from the perspective that he knew exactly how to lower them and cooper was a smart guy so you’d think he would be concerned that demonstrating his knowledge of the aft stairs being able to be lowered in flight couple with knowing how to lower them would be a huge tell. Also if cooper was a grunt who just jumped from the plane and had stairs lowered for him in Vietnam although there is no evidence of this from a commercial 727 only the SAT modified one with no aft stairs then how would cooper know the flap settings and how you had to fly the plane?
Good observation, the hijacker may well have known the exact procedure to deploy the aft stairs, but held back demonstrating that knowledge with the intent to mislead. If we are to believe anything released to the public about our Folk Hero friend DB (Douche Bag) COOPER we can surmise he is an accomplished master manipulator with obvious psycho/sociopathic characteristics. A pathological liar, superficially charming, and manipulative, it fits that he would toy with his young victim while he squirmed with delight in his power and control over her and those who would pursue him for his deed. However, there are those who walk amongst us who may be ‘smart guys’, but pathetically stumble through life demonstrating a near complete lack of technical skills. You know the type – they can give a dissertation on why Cheerios float on milk, but need someone to help them with the procedure on how to open the box to get them out. Even a high functioning psychopath who meticulously plans and ultimately executes a daring crime can still be stumped by the unexpected (e.g. how to deploy the aft stairs on a commercial 727). Research BTK as a well documented parallel to our good friend Mr. COOPER.
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?
Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.
well, you must have different docs than I do - there is no record of Cooper asking anyone to lower the stairs from the cockpit ... to be sure the issue came up, after Cooper remarked to Tina the stairs could be lowered from the cockpit after the plane was airborne, but no record he asked the pilot to do it! Tina may have relayed his comment to the pilot and that may have started an exchange - if it did we dont have the details of that except that the pilot commented about it to Flt Ops. There is no record of the pilot telling Tina 'Tell the hijacker we dont have controls in the cockpit to lower the stairs from here . . . '
For one thing, Cooper never talked directly to the cockpit during that period of time: 18:21- 18:38. I am referring to both the GG docs, the PI Transcript, and the crew interviews.
Cite your passage where Cooper asks the Pilot to lower the stairs, NickyB. :rofl:
Here's the two passages from which all the gobblewobble and blowfarb comes from. *Note that one of these passages is between the Pilot and the Ground Control, not between Cooper and the pilot. Again, keep track of the fact everything for and from Cooper is being mediated by ... Tina Mucklow.
Thanks for shedding light on that G, I was just going off what I heard from other people. Nonetheless weather he told Tina they could or asked them to my point remains the same Cooper knew that couldn’t be done and put it out the intent to mislead.
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?
Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.
well, you must have different docs than I do - there is no record of Cooper asking anyone to lower the stairs from the cockpit ... to be sure the issue came up, after Cooper remarked to Tina the stairs could be lowered from the cockpit after the plane was airborne, but no record he asked the pilot to do it! Tina may have relayed his comment to the pilot and that may have started an exchange - if it did we dont have the details of that except that the pilot commented about it to Flt Ops. There is no record of the pilot telling Tina 'Tell the hijacker we dont have controls in the cockpit to lower the stairs from here . . . '
For one thing, Cooper never talked directly to the cockpit during that period of time: 18:21- 18:38. I am referring to both the GG docs, the PI Transcript, and the crew interviews.
Cite your passage where Cooper asks the Pilot to lower the stairs, NickyB. :rofl:
Here's the two passages from which all the gobblewobble and blowfarb comes from. *Note that one of these passages is between the Pilot and the Ground Control, not between Cooper and the pilot. Again, keep track of the fact everything for and from Cooper is being mediated by ... Tina Mucklow.
Thanks for shedding light on that G, I was just going off what I heard from other people. Nonetheless weather he told Tina they could or asked them to my point remains the same Cooper knew that couldn’t be done and put it out the intent to mislead.
Each to his own propaganda.
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?
Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.
well, you must have different docs than I do - there is no record of Cooper asking anyone to lower the stairs from the cockpit ... to be sure the issue came up, after Cooper remarked to Tina the stairs could be lowered from the cockpit after the plane was airborne, but no record he asked the pilot to do it! Tina may have relayed his comment to the pilot and that may have started an exchange - if it did we dont have the details of that except that the pilot commented about it to Flt Ops. There is no record of the pilot telling Tina 'Tell the hijacker we dont have controls in the cockpit to lower the stairs from here . . . '
For one thing, Cooper never talked directly to the cockpit during that period of time: 18:21- 18:38. I am referring to both the GG docs, the PI Transcript, and the crew interviews.
Cite your passage where Cooper asks the Pilot to lower the stairs, NickyB. :rofl:
Here's the two passages from which all the gobblewobble and blowfarb comes from. *Note that one of these passages is between the Pilot and the Ground Control, not between Cooper and the pilot. Again, keep track of the fact everything for and from Cooper is being mediated by ... Tina Mucklow.
Thanks for shedding light on that G, I was just going off what I heard from other people. Nonetheless weather he told Tina they could or asked them to my point remains the same Cooper knew that couldn’t be done and put it out the intent to mislead.
Each to his own propaganda.
What baffles me is why a multi million dollar passenger plane like the 727 could not have its aft stairs operated from the cockpit. If you asked 100 people how the rear stairs of that plane were operated, would all 100 say it was only by a handle in the back of the plane and that it was the stewardess or a mechanic that did it? I say doubtful. Is it really far fetched to think that those stairs would be activated from the cockpit by a trained pilot versus a stewardess in the back of the plane?
The whole aft stairs deal is another red herring, just like the Tena Bar money, the lack of an accent, the negotiable currency. Anyone who walked on a 727 in the 1960's or early 1970's could have seen how those stairs were operated. The fact that Cooper did not know exactly how they worked shows to me that he did not spend a lot of time on passenger airplanes, and maybe even didn't have much money at all to buy multiple tickets to learn all the steps.
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?
Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.
well, you must have different docs than I do - there is no record of Cooper asking anyone to lower the stairs from the cockpit ... to be sure the issue came up, after Cooper remarked to Tina the stairs could be lowered from the cockpit after the plane was airborne, but no record he asked the pilot to do it! Tina may have relayed his comment to the pilot and that may have started an exchange - if it did we dont have the details of that except that the pilot commented about it to Flt Ops. There is no record of the pilot telling Tina 'Tell the hijacker we dont have controls in the cockpit to lower the stairs from here . . . '
For one thing, Cooper never talked directly to the cockpit during that period of time: 18:21- 18:38. I am referring to both the GG docs, the PI Transcript, and the crew interviews.
Cite your passage where Cooper asks the Pilot to lower the stairs, NickyB. :rofl:
Here's the two passages from which all the gobblewobble and blowfarb comes from. *Note that one of these passages is between the Pilot and the Ground Control, not between Cooper and the pilot. Again, keep track of the fact everything for and from Cooper is being mediated by ... Tina Mucklow.
Thanks for shedding light on that G, I was just going off what I heard from other people. Nonetheless weather he told Tina they could or asked them to my point remains the same Cooper knew that couldn’t be done and put it out the intent to mislead.
Each to his own propaganda.
What baffles me is why a multi million dollar passenger plane like the 727 could not have its aft stairs operated from the cockpit. If you asked 100 people how the rear stairs of that plane were operated, would all 100 say it was only by a handle in the back of the plane and that it was the stewardess or a mechanic that did it? I say doubtful. Is it really far fetched to think that those stairs would be activated from the cockpit by a trained pilot versus a stewardess in the back of the plane?
The whole aft stairs deal is another red herring, just like the Tena Bar money, the lack of an accent, the negotiable currency. Anyone who walked on a 727 in the 1960's or early 1970's could have seen how those stairs were operated. The fact that Cooper did not know exactly how they worked shows to me that he did not spend a lot of time on passenger airplanes, and maybe even didn't have much money at all to buy multiple tickets to learn all the steps.
What stands out to me is that he is task oriented. He doesn't appear to be the slightest bit afraid of parachuting. He is in charge, one way or another, and constantly moving toward his goal. No deception at all! (Just like the particles on his tie).
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?
Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.
well, you must have different docs than I do - there is no record of Cooper asking anyone to lower the stairs from the cockpit ... to be sure the issue came up, after Cooper remarked to Tina the stairs could be lowered from the cockpit after the plane was airborne, but no record he asked the pilot to do it! Tina may have relayed his comment to the pilot and that may have started an exchange - if it did we dont have the details of that except that the pilot commented about it to Flt Ops. There is no record of the pilot telling Tina 'Tell the hijacker we dont have controls in the cockpit to lower the stairs from here . . . '
For one thing, Cooper never talked directly to the cockpit during that period of time: 18:21- 18:38. I am referring to both the GG docs, the PI Transcript, and the crew interviews.
Cite your passage where Cooper asks the Pilot to lower the stairs, NickyB. :rofl:
Here's the two passages from which all the gobblewobble and blowfarb comes from. *Note that one of these passages is between the Pilot and the Ground Control, not between Cooper and the pilot. Again, keep track of the fact everything for and from Cooper is being mediated by ... Tina Mucklow.
Thanks for shedding light on that G, I was just going off what I heard from other people. Nonetheless weather he told Tina they could or asked them to my point remains the same Cooper knew that couldn’t be done and put it out the intent to mislead.
Each to his own propaganda.
What baffles me is why a multi million dollar passenger plane like the 727 could not have its aft stairs operated from the cockpit. If you asked 100 people how the rear stairs of that plane were operated, would all 100 say it was only by a handle in the back of the plane and that it was the stewardess or a mechanic that did it? I say doubtful. Is it really far fetched to think that those stairs would be activated from the cockpit by a trained pilot versus a stewardess in the back of the plane?
The whole aft stairs deal is another red herring, just like the Tena Bar money, the lack of an accent, the negotiable currency. Anyone who walked on a 727 in the 1960's or early 1970's could have seen how those stairs were operated. The fact that Cooper did not know exactly how they worked shows to me that he did not spend a lot of time on passenger airplanes, and maybe even didn't have much money at all to buy multiple tickets to learn all the steps.
The stairs and all the passenger doors were activated by the stewardesses. There were lights on the flight engineer's panel to show if the doors/stairs were opened or closed but nothing to control them. You are correct in saying that this is just another red herring.
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?
Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.
well, you must have different docs than I do - there is no record of Cooper asking anyone to lower the stairs from the cockpit ... to be sure the issue came up, after Cooper remarked to Tina the stairs could be lowered from the cockpit after the plane was airborne, but no record he asked the pilot to do it! Tina may have relayed his comment to the pilot and that may have started an exchange - if it did we dont have the details of that except that the pilot commented about it to Flt Ops. There is no record of the pilot telling Tina 'Tell the hijacker we dont have controls in the cockpit to lower the stairs from here . . . '
For one thing, Cooper never talked directly to the cockpit during that period of time: 18:21- 18:38. I am referring to both the GG docs, the PI Transcript, and the crew interviews.
Cite your passage where Cooper asks the Pilot to lower the stairs, NickyB. :rofl:
Here's the two passages from which all the gobblewobble and blowfarb comes from. *Note that one of these passages is between the Pilot and the Ground Control, not between Cooper and the pilot. Again, keep track of the fact everything for and from Cooper is being mediated by ... Tina Mucklow.
Thanks for shedding light on that G, I was just going off what I heard from other people. Nonetheless weather he told Tina they could or asked them to my point remains the same Cooper knew that couldn’t be done and put it out the intent to mislead.
Each to his own propaganda.
What baffles me is why a multi million dollar passenger plane like the 727 could not have its aft stairs operated from the cockpit. If you asked 100 people how the rear stairs of that plane were operated, would all 100 say it was only by a handle in the back of the plane and that it was the stewardess or a mechanic that did it? I say doubtful. Is it really far fetched to think that those stairs would be activated from the cockpit by a trained pilot versus a stewardess in the back of the plane?
The whole aft stairs deal is another red herring, just like the Tena Bar money, the lack of an accent, the negotiable currency. Anyone who walked on a 727 in the 1960's or early 1970's could have seen how those stairs were operated. The fact that Cooper did not know exactly how they worked shows to me that he did not spend a lot of time on passenger airplanes, and maybe even didn't have much money at all to buy multiple tickets to learn all the steps.
What red herring conducted by whom for what purpose? Why does this matter? Why is this important?
:conspiracy: Have you tried Lysol to get rid of all of the deceptions and red herrings?
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The parachute drama seems to never end...
1) 226 is not a "serial number' nor is 9/57
2) the Steinthal mentioned is the canopy itself and not the container and is not included in the evidence sheet.
3) one document states it's a pioneer and the other a Steinthal.
4) most serial numbers are two digit then 5 digit...
i'm still going to try and get WSHS to allow a repack in order to check the canopy on the Hayden chute. I should have an answer next week.
Look at this document again..evidence marked E doesn't mention it was found. only states what was on the packing card. the lower portion is mainly in reference to the canopy and mentions being found on the plane..."evidence E"
evidence F doesn't mention being found on the plane..the lower portion once again explains that..."evidence F"
someone possibly opened the chute in Reno or it had two packing cards and only one got back into the container...
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I doubt we had anything else other than Hayden's chutes and Cossey's chest packs and a bunch of confused agents writing things down...the first part of the serial numbers also don't always reflect the manufactured year...the pink parachute serial number is 58-53912 and was manufactured in 1959. the serial number doesn't start with 59....
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I doubt we had anything else other than Hayden's chutes and Cossey's chest packs and a bunch of confused agents writing things down...the first part of the serial numbers also don't always reflect the manufactured year...the pink parachute serial number is 58-53912 and was manufactured in 1959. the serial number doesn't start with 59....
Thats what I think - confused agents writing screwed up/ incomplete accounts.
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It's not really the FBI's fault. it's out of there area and just started jotting things down. that's why you see it stated as a pioneer on one document and a Steinthal on the next. 24 feet in length etc. they had no idea what was what...
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The only question left would be is to how they knew a Steinthal was in the container....
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Back chute Cooper left on plane serial number 60-9707 manufactured 1960 is consistent with Steinthal serial number system.
60-9707 is only 6 digits...Steinthal in photo is 66-12982 consistent with most chutes. 226 matches nothing and proves nothing given those numbers...
The packing card appears to be a new one with Hayden's chute. no others packed it prior to Cossey? the date on the strap pf Hayden's chute states APRIL 4/57 while the card states SEPT 9/57. that's also wrong. the "226" is carried over from the description above it..."26' ripstop conical 226"
Since only one rigger was on the card in 71, it's possible another card was with the chute and never put back in the pack..
Newspapers and documents tend to be WRONG...
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The packing card is NEW.. as in no other packing dates prior to 71 and Cossey taking the first line of many packings...I didn't claim it was new dating November 1971..where is the rigging information prior to 1971 for a container and chute a decade old? we see info a decade later...
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The packing card is NEW.. as in no other packing dates prior to 71 and Cossey taking the first line of many packings...I didn't claim it was new dating November 1971..where is the rigging information prior to 1971 for a container and chute a decade old? we see info a decade later...
Finegold's account is probably true. Nobody would make something like that up!
But what does that do to the Dawson account, which nobody has brought up so far? (below) ;D
Evidently McChord chutes were sent before the order was cancelled? Were Finegold's McChord chutes left on the plane or removed by somebody after they were delivered, before Hayden and Cossey chutes were also brought on board?
Why is there no mention of these chutes being brought on the plane by an FBI agent in the flt com transcript? The transcript mentions others coming and going off the plane ...
It sounds like a circus of people coming and going on and off the plane after it landed at SEA!
Is Dawson's account flawed?
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McChord was pushed out by powers above...
Hayden's chute is marked as evidence. he only got one chute back....seems pretty simple to me?
what are we up to now...
2 from Cossey
2 from Emerick
2 from Hayden
2 from McChord
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McChord was pushed out by powers above...
Hayden's chute is marked as evidence. he only got one chute back....seems pretty simple to me?
what are we up to now...
2 from Cossey
2 from Emerick
2 from Hayden
2 from McChord
Not according to Finegold! So you dont believe Finegold - why ?
Or, the agent Finegold recognised was delievering non-McChord chutes ? Were McChord chutes sent or not? Dawson seems to say no...
The only way McChord chutes can be sent, is if they had already been sent before Dawson's order was cancelled later.
Cooper was wise to reject McChord chutes in any event.
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where is the document...
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where is the document...
what document are you referring to ? Finegold's document?
I havent the faintest idea what you are talking about! The Finegold doc, the Dawson doc, .... ??? :)
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FLYJACK ADVISES:
FLYJACK
#61468
17 minutes ago
48 minutes ago, mrshutter45 said:
You are slowly turning into Georger Fly...
Hardly,
I am tired of childish, idiotic, incoherent and false comments from positions of ignorance..
Keep that crap over there.
Quote
:rofl: POSITIONS OF IGNORANCE
FLYJACK is claiming a better position of truth! :chr2:
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where is any statements from passengers of people going to the back. agents, no less? why would Cooper allow this?
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There was an incident with an intoxicated passenger?
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where is any statements from passengers of people going to the back. agents, no less? why would Cooper allow this?
so you are saying Finegold lied -
so far as I know Finegold says nothing about where the agent left the chutes ... says nothing about the agent going to the back with the chutes ... did Finegold see the chutes being brought on?
maybe you and flyjack should talk to WSHM ?
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You have to have good reason for using the word "liar"
I don't see any evidence suggesting anyone went to the back of the plane other than a passenger. many talked about seeing a woman bring in the bag and chutes. nobody claimed a male doing the same. the FBI would ave to silence everyone on the plane. I've et to read about any of this from the witnesses..
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Blevins was going on and on about you being Johnny Greene so I thought I would post that for him to see...
Removed...happy?
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https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/three-skydivers-weigh-in-on-d-b-cooper
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A rigger has been found for the possibility of opening Hayden's chute that is located at the historical society in Tacoma..I should have an answer from them this week with allowing the repack to happen..
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https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/three-skydivers-weigh-in-on-d-b-cooper
377
Good article. Not much has changed over the years in skydiver assessments. The key for me is Cooper covered all of the minimum basics described by skydivers so he definitely had an idea about how to get this done, he waited to bail in a survivable rural zone near but not too close to civilisation with easy access back toward Vancouver-Portland, he had time, conditions favored an escape from law enforcement, none of his gear was ever found (thats important), and money turns up at Vancouver which links him to an escape scenario ... that adds up to at least 50-50 chance he survived the initial jump. Did he survive the jump and get away? The evidence suggests he survived enough to make it back to the Vancouver area. What happened then? God only knows.
The theft of boots at the Heisson Store we discussed years ago (if this is not a made up account!) may confirm his landing area and as Ive always said, offers a direct rail route south back to Vancouver and literally along River Road only steps behind the Fazio property and Tina Bar ... which thousands of people were familiar with back in 1971. Cooper could have been looking for an unseen route back across the river? The problem for Cooper is the hobo encampments (and people law enforcement assess as "people you would not want to meet!") in certain areas along this rail line at Vancouver in 1971.
Its like my cousin in the Sheriff's Dept thought: "If his money is here then he was here, physically, literally."
** credit to FLYJACK for his current updated version of my old map published at DZ more than a decade ago - its nice to see FJ copying my old work without giving credit - >:D
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The original Drop zone RR map we discussed at DZ years ago.... :rofl:
The issue again after all these years is: did law enforcement completely botch the Heisson Store robbery and not link it to the hijacking? Why if that is true? Was the FBI even informed and miss this possible link?
Was the well known rail line going south from this area ever searched - probably not! Why not?
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FJ is copying this forum minute to minute and responds saying:
"(Georger) You are delusional."
That remark is delusional! Keep up your delusions FJ. :rofl:
I mean to hear FJ tell it the Cooper case never existed prior to him ... and his initial spat with Jo Weber back in? 2010? Jo said FLYJACK WAS BULLJAX who had been pestering her for several years prior to showing up at DZ. BULLJAX or whomever immediately demanded of Quade that he kick Weber off of Dropzone! When FJ didn't get his way he left instead! Weber is still laughing aboot it today. EH!?
To his credit, FJ is revisiting old issues that needed better exploration years ago! I applaud that x100.
KEEP UP THE FINE WORK FLYJACK! Clone yourself so there are five of you! EH!? :bravo: :congrats:
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https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/three-skydivers-weigh-in-on-d-b-cooper
377
Good article. Not much has changed over the years in skydiver assessments. The key for me is Cooper covered all of the minimum basics described by skydivers so he definitely had an idea about how to get this done, he waited to bail in a survivable rural zone near but not too close to civilisation with easy access back toward Vancouver-Portland, he had time, conditions favored an escape from law enforcement, none of his gear was ever found (thats important), and money turns up at Vancouver which links him to an escape scenario ... that adds up to at least 50-50 chance he survived the initial jump. Did he survive the jump and get away? The evidence suggests he survived enough to make it back to the Vancouver area. What happened then? God only knows.
The theft of boots at the Heisson Store we discussed years ago (if this is not a made up account!) may confirm his landing area and as Ive always said, offers a direct rail route south back to Vancouver and literally along River Road only steps behind the Fazio property and Tina Bar ... which thousands of people were familiar with back in 1971. Cooper could have been looking for an unseen route back across the river? The problem for Cooper is the hobo encampments (and people law enforcement assess as "people you would not want to meet!") in certain areas along this rail line at Vancouver in 1971.
Its like my cousin in the Sheriff's Dept thought: "If his money is here then he was here, physically, literally."
** credit to FLYJACK for his current updated version of my old map published at DZ more than a decade ago - its nice to see FJ copying my old work without giving credit - >:D
Harold Babitski’s daughter also saw a man on lewis river road that night dressed in all black holding something.
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https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/three-skydivers-weigh-in-on-d-b-cooper
377
Good article. Not much has changed over the years in skydiver assessments. The key for me is Cooper covered all of the minimum basics described by skydivers so he definitely had an idea about how to get this done, he waited to bail in a survivable rural zone near but not too close to civilisation with easy access back toward Vancouver-Portland, he had time, conditions favored an escape from law enforcement, none of his gear was ever found (thats important), and money turns up at Vancouver which links him to an escape scenario ... that adds up to at least 50-50 chance he survived the initial jump. Did he survive the jump and get away? The evidence suggests he survived enough to make it back to the Vancouver area. What happened then? God only knows.
The theft of boots at the Heisson Store we discussed years ago (if this is not a made up account!) may confirm his landing area and as Ive always said, offers a direct rail route south back to Vancouver and literally along River Road only steps behind the Fazio property and Tina Bar ... which thousands of people were familiar with back in 1971. Cooper could have been looking for an unseen route back across the river? The problem for Cooper is the hobo encampments (and people law enforcement assess as "people you would not want to meet!") in certain areas along this rail line at Vancouver in 1971.
Its like my cousin in the Sheriff's Dept thought: "If his money is here then he was here, physically, literally."
** credit to FLYJACK for his current updated version of my old map published at DZ more than a decade ago - its nice to see FJ copying my old work without giving credit - >:D
Harold Babitski’s daughter also saw a man on lewis river road that night dressed in all black holding something.
Lets go back and do a search for this topic at DZ. Worth a look ... is anyone involved in the robbery still around to interview? How come WSHM didn't focus on this? .....
*DZ Posts re- /Heisson Store/ still on DZ go back to 2011 - many by Jo Weber - she visited that area and talked to people in that area and located the previous Heisson Store owner and interviewed him - she claims the FBI did not investigate the robbery ? FJ seems to be breaking new ground with his searches. Did FJ talk to Weber about this back in 2010-11 ? Someone could call Jo and ask her! ;)
* Did anyone living in the Heisson area, maybe a previous resident, suddenly move or disappear or divorce in Nov 1971 ?
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There was an incident with an intoxicated passenger?
That's what I've been told by Scott MacPherson, I believe. Maybe Jack Almstad, too.
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You have to have good reason for using the word "liar"
I don't see any evidence suggesting anyone went to the back of the plane other than a passenger. many talked about seeing a woman bring in the bag and chutes. nobody claimed a male doing the same. the FBI would ave to silence everyone on the plane. I've et to read about any of this from the witnesses..
I have heard from several witnesses that two men brought the money on board and Tina picked up the loot at the front of the plane. She is definitely the one who carried it to the back of the plane. I heard this from Larry Feingold, Scott MacPherson, Mike Cooper, and I think Jack Almstad. I have not seen any documentation on these tidbits anywhere.
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https://melmagazine.com/en-us/story/three-skydivers-weigh-in-on-d-b-cooper
377
Sigh. These guys ought to read my book....
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You have to have good reason for using the word "liar"
I don't see any evidence suggesting anyone went to the back of the plane other than a passenger. many talked about seeing a woman bring in the bag and chutes. nobody claimed a male doing the same. the FBI would ave to silence everyone on the plane. I've et to read about any of this from the witnesses..
I have heard from several witnesses that two men brought the money on board and Tina picked up the loot at the front of the plane. She is definitely the one who carried it to the back of the plane. I heard this from Larry Feingold, Scott MacPherson, Mike Cooper, and I think Jack Almstad. I have not seen any documentation on these tidbits anywhere.
So Tina did not go down the stairs to get any chutes she brought on? Or, she made two trips down the stair in addition to the chutes the guys brought up the stairs?
Did you ever interview anyone about the Heisson store story?
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Saved this from Snowmman 2008 - Heisson
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Old Rail lines Heisson Amboy area south to Vancouver and north behind Fazio property - then back north to Seattle.
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How amusing to read all of this stuff.
1) Testimony from people stating that they took note of 305 flying over their homes that night because it was flying so low and was so loud is pure BS. After all, 305 was flying at 10,000 feet with engines throttled back significantly. 10,000 feet is well above what jets departing or arriving into PDX would be flying in the area...even jets approaching PDX while flying over Ariel will normally be flying under 10,000 feet at that point.
2) The railroad tracks do not travel near or behind the Fazio's property. For those who care to look, they will note that the tracks are on the other side of Lake River. No one is honestly arguing that Cooper swam across a river to get to the "island" that Tena Bar is on only to hike another 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar, are they? Moreover, no one is honestly arguing that Cooper jumped off the train at the terminal in Vancouver then walked 7 miles north to Tena Bar, only to turn around and hike another 7 miles back to Vancouver, are they?
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My bet was the military jets was making all the noise...
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My bet was the military jets was making all the noise...
I suspect you're right...which, by the way, were flying several miles east of 305.
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How amusing to read all of this stuff.
1) Testimony from people stating that they took note of 305 flying over their homes that night because it was flying so low and was so loud is pure BS. After all, 305 was flying at 10,000 feet with engines throttled back significantly. 10,000 feet is well above what jets departing or arriving into PDX would be flying in the area...even jets approaching PDX while flying over Ariel will normally be flying under 10,000 feet at that point.
2) The railroad tracks do not travel near or behind the Fazio's property. For those who care to look, they will note that the tracks are on the other side of Lake River. No one is honestly arguing that Cooper swam across a river to get to the "island" that Tena Bar is on only to hike another 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar, are they? Moreover, no one is honestly arguing that Cooper jumped off the train at the terminal in Vancouver then walked 7 miles north to Tena Bar, only to turn around and hike another 7 miles back to Vancouver, are they?
I merely posted the data - which is more than you have done!
Nobody suggested Cooper swam the Lake River! Only you bring that up! The tracks are closer to the Fazio property than Seattle, or Portland or Vancouver is! Moreover, you can leave the tracks at Vancouver and simply walk up the shoreline to the Fazios. It's all relative. You might be able to hit the Fazios house with an arrow from the tracks?
Let's be honest. You dont want 305 anywhere near Heisson or even Battleground, even if that happened. You are totally invested and promoting your own story, like some virus! :D You are anything but an impartial observer or commentator. Your propaganda only leads to chaos, dead ends, feuds, and headaches.
You must deny a Heisson story because you are selling your own account - for money $$$$$$$$$$$! :rofl:
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How amusing to read all of this stuff.
1) Testimony from people stating that they took note of 305 flying over their homes that night because it was flying so low and was so loud is pure BS. After all, 305 was flying at 10,000 feet with engines throttled back significantly. 10,000 feet is well above what jets departing or arriving into PDX would be flying in the area...even jets approaching PDX while flying over Ariel will normally be flying under 10,000 feet at that point.
2) The railroad tracks do not travel near or behind the Fazio's property. For those who care to look, they will note that the tracks are on the other side of Lake River. No one is honestly arguing that Cooper swam across a river to get to the "island" that Tena Bar is on only to hike another 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar, are they? Moreover, no one is honestly arguing that Cooper jumped off the train at the terminal in Vancouver then walked 7 miles north to Tena Bar, only to turn around and hike another 7 miles back to Vancouver, are they?
Not to mention that the airliner was also above an overcast and several cloud layers. There is no way that anyone on the ground could see that aircraft and it is unlikely that they could hear it either.
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My bet was the military jets was making all the noise...
Heisson is a well known noise abatement zone - tons of jet noise abatement studies and legal actions over the years. But it is a commonly taken route. The person at Heisson is only giving his account of the night of the hijacking, during the critical period of the hijacking. That's all. Take it or leave it. The Heisson store was robbed that night of a pair of boots. Other reports. No similar reports at Woodland, for example ... or anywhere else. It's just data to be considered - it is not a novel by RobertMBlevins! ;)
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How amusing to read all of this stuff.
1) Testimony from people stating that they took note of 305 flying over their homes that night because it was flying so low and was so loud is pure BS. After all, 305 was flying at 10,000 feet with engines throttled back significantly. 10,000 feet is well above what jets departing or arriving into PDX would be flying in the area...even jets approaching PDX while flying over Ariel will normally be flying under 10,000 feet at that point.
2) The railroad tracks do not travel near or behind the Fazio's property. For those who care to look, they will note that the tracks are on the other side of Lake River. No one is honestly arguing that Cooper swam across a river to get to the "island" that Tena Bar is on only to hike another 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar, are they? Moreover, no one is honestly arguing that Cooper jumped off the train at the terminal in Vancouver then walked 7 miles north to Tena Bar, only to turn around and hike another 7 miles back to Vancouver, are they?
Not to mention that the airliner was also above an overcast and several cloud layers. There is no way that anyone on the ground could see that aircraft and it is unlikely that they could hear it either.
Of course. The guy was probably senile and blind too! :rofl:
Oh! And water flows down hill.
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How amusing to read all of this stuff.
1) Testimony from people stating that they took note of 305 flying over their homes that night because it was flying so low and was so loud is pure BS. After all, 305 was flying at 10,000 feet with engines throttled back significantly. 10,000 feet is well above what jets departing or arriving into PDX would be flying in the area...even jets approaching PDX while flying over Ariel will normally be flying under 10,000 feet at that point.
2) The railroad tracks do not travel near or behind the Fazio's property. For those who care to look, they will note that the tracks are on the other side of Lake River. No one is honestly arguing that Cooper swam across a river to get to the "island" that Tena Bar is on only to hike another 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar, are they? Moreover, no one is honestly arguing that Cooper jumped off the train at the terminal in Vancouver then walked 7 miles north to Tena Bar, only to turn around and hike another 7 miles back to Vancouver, are they?
I merely posted the data - which is more than you have done!
Nobody suggested Cooper swam the Lake River! Only you bring that up! The tracks are closer to the Fazio property than Seattle, or Portland or Vancouver is! Moreover, you can leave the tracks at Vancouver and simply walk up the shoreline to the Fazios. It's all relative. You might be able to hit the Fazios house with an arrow from the tracks?
Let's be honest. You dont want 305 anywhere near Heisson or even Battleground, even if that happened. You are totally invested and promoting your own story, like some virus! :D You are anything but an impartial observer or commentator. Your propaganda only leads to chaos, dead ends, feuds, and headaches.
You must deny a Heisson story because you are selling your own account - for money $$$$$$$$$$$! :rofl:
GEORGER if you want to believe that Cooper walked 40 miles or swam across Lake River have at it. It's all yours.
I can assure you that what I've learned and what I know at this point is light years ahead of where you are. Just wait. You'll see.
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How amusing to read all of this stuff.
1) Testimony from people stating that they took note of 305 flying over their homes that night because it was flying so low and was so loud is pure BS. After all, 305 was flying at 10,000 feet with engines throttled back significantly. 10,000 feet is well above what jets departing or arriving into PDX would be flying in the area...even jets approaching PDX while flying over Ariel will normally be flying under 10,000 feet at that point.
2) The railroad tracks do not travel near or behind the Fazio's property. For those who care to look, they will note that the tracks are on the other side of Lake River. No one is honestly arguing that Cooper swam across a river to get to the "island" that Tena Bar is on only to hike another 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar, are they? Moreover, no one is honestly arguing that Cooper jumped off the train at the terminal in Vancouver then walked 7 miles north to Tena Bar, only to turn around and hike another 7 miles back to Vancouver, are they?
Not to mention that the airliner was also above an overcast and several cloud layers. There is no way that anyone on the ground could see that aircraft and it is unlikely that they could hear it either.
Of course. The guy was probably senile and blind too! :rofl:
Oh! And water flows down hill.
Georger, I thought we had an understanding that I would not reply to your posts and that you would not reply to mine. Consequently, I will be reporting your wise assed post above.
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You have to have good reason for using the word "liar"
I don't see any evidence suggesting anyone went to the back of the plane other than a passenger. many talked about seeing a woman bring in the bag and chutes. nobody claimed a male doing the same. the FBI would ave to silence everyone on the plane. I've et to read about any of this from the witnesses..
I have heard from several witnesses that two men brought the money on board and Tina picked up the loot at the front of the plane. She is definitely the one who carried it to the back of the plane. I heard this from Larry Feingold, Scott MacPherson, Mike Cooper, and I think Jack Almstad. I have not seen any documentation on these tidbits anywhere.
So Tina did not go down the stairs to get any chutes she brought on? Or, she made two trips down the stair in addition to the chutes the guys brought up the stairs?
Did you ever interview anyone about the Heisson store story?
Correction: The witnesses I spoke with said that Tina did not go down the stairs for the money. Further, they were off the plane by the time Tina went down for the chutes. I assume she told the truth about that.
In addition, I have not made any inquiries regarding the Heisson robbery. As a mater of fact, I just learned where Heisson is!
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Georger, I thought we had an understanding that I would not reply to your posts and that you would not reply to mine. Consequently, I will be reporting your wise assed post above.
Georger, please abide by the gentleman's agreement set between you and R99. you are causing more problems than you are aware of. this forum will get on track with the Cooper case and discuss it rationally and challenged respectively. If you challenge other sites, do it respectively or directly.....
Shutter
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Georger, I thought we had an understanding that I would not reply to your posts and that you would not reply to mine. Consequently, I will be reporting your wise assed post above.
Georger, please abide by the gentleman's agreement set between you and R99. you are causing more problems than you are aware of. this forum will get on track with the Cooper case and discuss it rationally and challenged respectively. If you challenge other sites, do it respectively or directly.....
Shutter
Uh, I have no agreement with R99. The only agreement was your request or demand we not reply to each other. I didnt start this crap in the first place! And I am not the one pushing this! This is insane.
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How amusing to read all of this stuff.
1) Testimony from people stating that they took note of 305 flying over their homes that night because it was flying so low and was so loud is pure BS. After all, 305 was flying at 10,000 feet with engines throttled back significantly. 10,000 feet is well above what jets departing or arriving into PDX would be flying in the area...even jets approaching PDX while flying over Ariel will normally be flying under 10,000 feet at that point.
2) The railroad tracks do not travel near or behind the Fazio's property. For those who care to look, they will note that the tracks are on the other side of Lake River. No one is honestly arguing that Cooper swam across a river to get to the "island" that Tena Bar is on only to hike another 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar, are they? Moreover, no one is honestly arguing that Cooper jumped off the train at the terminal in Vancouver then walked 7 miles north to Tena Bar, only to turn around and hike another 7 miles back to Vancouver, are they?
I merely posted the data - which is more than you have done!
Nobody suggested Cooper swam the Lake River! Only you bring that up! The tracks are closer to the Fazio property than Seattle, or Portland or Vancouver is! Moreover, you can leave the tracks at Vancouver and simply walk up the shoreline to the Fazios. It's all relative. You might be able to hit the Fazios house with an arrow from the tracks?
Let's be honest. You dont want 305 anywhere near Heisson or even Battleground, even if that happened. You are totally invested and promoting your own story, like some virus! :D You are anything but an impartial observer or commentator. Your propaganda only leads to chaos, dead ends, feuds, and headaches.
You must deny a Heisson story because you are selling your own account - for money $$$$$$$$$$$! :rofl:
GEORGER if you want to believe that Cooper walked 40 miles or swam across Lake River have at it. It's all yours.
I can assure you that what I've learned and what I know at this point is light years ahead of where you are. Just wait. You'll see.
On second thought, maybe swimming Lake River is exactly what he did, being pursued ?
Since you boast you are light years ahead of everyone else how come your signals are still coming in undistorted on standard Earth time? Either your claim is false or ... your claim is false? Time rolls down hill! ;) An observer in front of the source will hear a higher frequency f = c + 0c – 0.7c f0 = 3.33 f0 and an observer behind the source will hear a lower frequency f = c – 0c + 0.7c f0 = 0.59 f0 . Now the source is moving at the speed of sound in the medium (υs = c). When this principle is applied to light speeds over light years, and electromagnetic effects, the results are profound! So your claim is only a boast without substance. ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect
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Uh, I have no agreement with R99. The only agreement was your request or demand we not reply to each other. I didnt start this crap in the first place! And I am not the one pushing this! This is insane.
Then don't respond to his comments like I suggested..I didn't demand shit.
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On second thought, maybe swimming Lake River is exactly what he did, being pursued ?
Since you boast you are light years ahead of everyone else how come your signals are still coming in undistorted on standard Earth time? Either your claim is false or ... your claim is false? Time rolls down hill! ;) An observer in front of the source will hear a higher frequency f = c + 0c – 0.7c f0 = 3.33 f0 and an observer behind the source will hear a lower frequency f = c – 0c + 0.7c f0 = 0.59 f0 . Now the source is moving at the speed of sound in the medium (υs = c). When this principle is applied to light speeds over light years, and electromagnetic effects, the results are profound! So your claim is only a boast without substance. ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect
So now you believe in science and advocate its use?
Perhaps you should then apply some basic physics including wind speed, altitude, weight, surface area, and of course the appropriate co-efficient of friction to the placard-find and see what your new-found appreciation of science tells you? You wouldn't be a part-time flat-Earther, would you?
My previous claim is "only a boast without substance." Hence the last two sentences: "Just wait. You'll see."
EU...out!
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On second thought, maybe swimming Lake River is exactly what he did, being pursued ?
Since you boast you are light years ahead of everyone else how come your signals are still coming in undistorted on standard Earth time? Either your claim is false or ... your claim is false? Time rolls down hill! ;) An observer in front of the source will hear a higher frequency f = c + 0c – 0.7c f0 = 3.33 f0 and an observer behind the source will hear a lower frequency f = c – 0c + 0.7c f0 = 0.59 f0 . Now the source is moving at the speed of sound in the medium (υs = c). When this principle is applied to light speeds over light years, and electromagnetic effects, the results are profound! So your claim is only a boast without substance. ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect
So now you believe in science and advocate its use?
Perhaps you should then apply some basic physics including wind speed, altitude, weight, surface area, and of course the appropriate co-efficient of friction to the placard-find and see what your new-found appreciation of science tells you? You wouldn't be a part-time flat-Earther, would you?
My previous claim is "only a boast without substance." Hence the last two sentences: "Just wait. You'll see."
EU...out!
Is there an air date for the show yet? One you are able to share? I heard summer, but it would be great if it is sooner.
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On second thought, maybe swimming Lake River is exactly what he did, being pursued ?
Since you boast you are light years ahead of everyone else how come your signals are still coming in undistorted on standard Earth time? Either your claim is false or ... your claim is false? Time rolls down hill! ;) An observer in front of the source will hear a higher frequency f = c + 0c – 0.7c f0 = 3.33 f0 and an observer behind the source will hear a lower frequency f = c – 0c + 0.7c f0 = 0.59 f0 . Now the source is moving at the speed of sound in the medium (υs = c). When this principle is applied to light speeds over light years, and electromagnetic effects, the results are profound! So your claim is only a boast without substance. ;)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doppler_effect
So now you believe in science and advocate its use?
Perhaps you should then apply some basic physics including wind speed, altitude, weight, surface area, and of course the appropriate co-efficient of friction to the placard-find and see what your new-found appreciation of science tells you? You wouldn't be a part-time flat-Earther, would you?
My previous claim is "only a boast without substance." Hence the last two sentences: "Just wait. You'll see."
EU...out!
First it was eLVIS and High Stakes Hold Em. Then several runs for the Legislature. Now it is sUPERMAN smoking a cigar and dBCooper.
What's next - a Corona virus vaccine and a run for President from a pontoon raft docked at Tina Bar?
Wouldn't it have been easier just to run away with the circus?
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Is there an air date for the show yet? One you are able to share? I heard summer, but it would be great if it is sooner.
The premiere is currently set for July 5th.
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First it was eLVIS and High Stakes Hold Em. Then several runs for the Legislature. Now it is sUPERMAN smoking a cigar and dBCooper.
What's next - a Corona virus vaccine and a run for President from a pontoon raft docked at Tina Bar?
Wouldn't it have been easier just to run away with the circus?
Sounds like I have a fan.
What exactly have you contributed to this case GEORGER? Name one single thing you've discovered? Something you've brought to the table? Anything? What theory have you proposed backed up with evidence? Hell, what theory have you proposed period?
Or do you just sit around and blow smoke, attack everyone else's work and accomplish nothing?
Where do you get off criticizing anybody about anything that they bring to the table? Seriously?
GEORGER, the know-it-all. The man who has yet to accomplished anything. Sits around, trolling others, trying to sound smart all the while sounding like a fool. What a legacy. Congratulations!
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Now let me mention a few observations concerning several people that frequent the Forum who actually bring something to the table:
377: Has contributed mightily concerning skydiving. Also, has graciously let Tom Kaye analyze his Cooper twenty.
Tom Kaye: Discovered the commercially pure titanium and other critical particles on the tie. He has also contributed in other substantive manners to the case.
Shutter: Hosts the Forum and is very good at providing critical feedback and insight into the case, all the while being civil.
Darren: Hosts the Cooper Vortex podcasts and has injected a lot of new things to consider.
Bruce Smith: The Mayor of Cooperville, author of a well-liked and popular book about DBC, has posted and hosted a wealth of DBC related material on The Mountain News.
Nicholas Broughton: Has investigated and contributed a lot specifically as it pertains to his suspect Klansnic.
R99: Analyzed the placard, brings solid info and data to the table and advocates for the Cooper-was-a-no-pull theory and provides an intelligent rationale.
Parrotheadvol: Actively engages in theories and provides civil discourse and food-for-thought.
Fcastle866: Clearly a bright and methodical person representing what this forum needs more of in terms of critical thought.
Haggarknew: Provides a very unique perspective concerning his thoughts and advocated insight into the case and DBC. Yet again, engages people civilly.
Marty Andrade: Has done real work concerning the survivability of the jump, not to mention Max Gunther and combing through census data.
And, of course, there are several others who show up less frequently and contribute substantially in their own way if only by asking questions.
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On your previous: 2) The railroad tracks do not travel near or behind the Fazio's property. For those who care to look, they will note that the tracks are on the other side of Lake River. No one is honestly arguing that Cooper swam across a river to get to the "island" that Tena Bar is on only to hike another 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar, are they? Moreover, no one is honestly arguing that Cooper jumped off the train at the terminal in Vancouver then walked 7 miles north to Tena Bar, only to turn around and hike another 7 miles back to Vancouver, are they?
1. It is a 1.3 mile distance from the tracks to the water's edge at Tina Bar in 1971-1980!
2. Tina Bar is not an island! It is a beach on the Columbia River.
3. Swam the river? What river? Lake River formerly called Vancouver Creek, sometimes dries up in the summer according to residents in the area. During those months there is nothing to swim across. In the wetter parts of the year the water levels are cyclical, during floods a raging torrent which drains quickly. Your socalled "river" is a "creek" during most of the year according to local residents. Lake River socalled, or Vancouver Creek is a creek! That is why it was called a "creek" for decades.
4. Vancouver Creek is not 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar! Your math is wrong. It is at most about 1.3 miles.
5. Your last point is too hyperbolic to even comment on . . .
Please get the facts right for a change. Stop all of the BLUSTER! And stop all of the misinformation and hyperbolic 'Cooper byte' promotional bs.
Most people familiar with this situation of the rail line from Amboy-Heisson south to Vancouver, speculate that Cooper probably got off at Vancouver when the train slowed at Vancouver. A fact you fail to site is the fact that trains passing east of the Fazio property are usually traveling fast - too fast to board or jump from! That is a legitimate argument. So most people actually believe Cooper would have left the train when it slowed at Vancouver ... and Cooper might have walked the bridge to get across the Columbia to Portland. That bridge offers many safety portals for workers, Cooper could have used crossing the bridge. That is the scenario most people knowledgeable of this matter chose.
All I did was post Snowmman's previous 2008 post on this matter BECAUSE I thot people might like to see it! You jump to the conclusion I am expressing some kind of personal theory? And you pounce like Superman leaping tall buildings and all facts and logic in a single bound. Then it turns out your basic facts are even wrong! The very least you owe your loyal promotional audience is correct basic facts!
Pardon me for breathing! :) Pick on somebody your own size for a change - ELVIS!
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On your previous: 2) The railroad tracks do not travel near or behind the Fazio's property. For those who care to look, they will note that the tracks are on the other side of Lake River. No one is honestly arguing that Cooper swam across a river to get to the "island" that Tena Bar is on only to hike another 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar, are they? Moreover, no one is honestly arguing that Cooper jumped off the train at the terminal in Vancouver then walked 7 miles north to Tena Bar, only to turn around and hike another 7 miles back to Vancouver, are they?
1. It is a 1.3 mile distance from the tracks to the water's edge at Tina Bar in 1971-1980!
2. Tina Bar is not an island! It is a beach on the Columbia River.
3. Swam the river? What river? Lake River formerly called Vancouver Creek, sometimes dries up in the summer according to residents in the area. During those months there is nothing to swim across. In the wetter parts of the year the water levels are cyclical, during floods a raging torrent which drains quickly. Your socalled "river" is a "creek" during most of the year according to local residents. Lake River socalled, or Vancouver Creek is a creek! That is why it was called a "creek" for decades.
4. Vancouver Creek is not 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar! Your math is wrong. It is at most about 1.3 miles.
5. Your last point is too hyperbolic to even comment on . . .
Please get the facts right for a change. Stop all of the BLUSTER! And stop all of the misinformation and hyperbolic 'Cooper byte' bs.
Most people familiar with this situation of the rail line from Amboy-Heisson south to Vancouver, speculate that Cooper probably got off at Vancouver when the train slowed at Vancouver. A fact you fail to site is the fact that trains passing east of the Fazio property are usually traveling fast - too fast to board or jump from! That is a legitimate argument. So most people actually believe Cooper would have left the train when it slowed at Vancouver ... and Cooper might have walked the bridge to get across the Columbia to Portland. That bridge offers many safety portals for workers, Cooper could have used crossing the bridge. That is the scenario most people knowledgeable of this matter chose.
All I did was post Snowmman's previous 2008 post on this matter BECAUSE. You jump to the conclusion I am expressing some kind of personal theory? And you pounce like Superman leaping tall buidings and all facts and logic in a single bound. Then it turns out your basic facts are even wrong! The very least you owe your loyal audience is correct basic facts!
Pardon me for breathing! :)
Bravo GEORGER, you are actually attempting to debate a point, although you are arguing a point you cannot win.
First, I did not direct my post (#2361) to you personally. Where did I say, "hey GEORGER you're theory is full of crap" or anything like that?
Second, Lake River is not a creek. Lake River is a river. It is never a creek--especially in November. That is why there are dozens of permanent house boat homes on Lake River along with a marina. It is at least 200 feet across and in some spots 300 feet across. Now you may be referring to a branch of Lake River that leads into Salmon Creek which leads to the main Lake River. That said, I can overlook this error because it is you who are not familiar with the area.
Third, Tena Bar is indeed located on what is effectively an island. I did not say Tena Bar was an island (SEE BOLD TYPE BELOW) It is completely surrounded by water--Columbia River, Lake River and Vancouver Lake--25 miles around. If it were not for a 400-foot land bridge three miles south of the Fazio property near Vancouver Lake, Tena Bar would literally be on an island.
Fourth, the shortest distance possible from the railroad tracks to Tena Bar is 1.3 miles. That is why I worded my statement that he would have had to swim Lake River and walk 2, 3, 4, 5 miles etc. depending upon where he actually swam across Lake River.
Fifth, if you read my point #2 carefully you will see that I do refer to the notion of DBC jumping off in Vancouver and walking 7 miles up to Tena Bar. For your convenience point #2 follows:
2) The railroad tracks do not travel near or behind the Fazio's property. For those who care to look, they will note that the tracks are on the other side of Lake River. No one is honestly arguing that Cooper swam across a river to get to the "island" that Tena Bar is on only to hike another 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar, are they? Moreover, no one is honestly arguing that Cooper jumped off the train at the terminal in Vancouver then walked 7 miles north to Tena Bar, only to turn around and hike another 7 miles back to Vancouver, are they?
You see GEORGER, when you challenge me you will always lose. That is because I know what I am talking about...even though I was a commentator on a TV show called High Stakes Hold'em, ran for public office, occasionally smoke a cigar, and have a DBC show premiering this summer.
Cheers!
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Third, Tena Bar is indeed located on what is effectively an island. I did not say Tena Bar was an island (SEE BOLD TYPE BELOW) It is completely surrounded by water--Columbia River, Lake River and Vancouver Lake--25 miles around. If it were not for a 400-foot land bridge three miles south of the Fazio property near Vancouver Lake, Tena Bar would literally be on an island.
Eric, You are absolute correct. For all practical purposes, Tina Bar and the area surrounding it are on an island. There is the Columbia River on the west side, Vancouver Lake and Lake River (which empties into the Columbia River) on the east and north sides, and the flushing channel on the south side. The purpose of the flushing channel is to move water from the Columbia River into Vancouver Lake.
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Here's a question worth pondering:
What was Cooper's Plan A?
After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?
Cheers!
-
Here's a question worth pondering:
What was Cooper's Plan A?
After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?
Cheers!
Since very few actual facts are known, let’s debate your opinion that Cooper’s original plan called for jumping near Seattle. I find that to be an interesting theory but I don’t see it any more logical or likely than many other’s theories.
Since you like to debate, let’s hear your theory of why you think it was apparent that his original plan was to jump near Seattle !
-
Here's a question worth pondering:
What was Cooper's Plan A?
After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?
Cheers!
Since very few actual facts are known, let’s debate your opinion that Cooper’s original plan called for jumping near Seattle. I find that to be an interesting theory but I don’t see it any more logical or likely than many other’s theories.
Since you like to debate, let’s hear your theory of why you think it was apparent that his original plan was to jump near Seattle !
Kermit, in the now 11 years that I have been on the Cooper thread on DropZone and Shutter's thread, everyone who has examined the evidence seems to have come to the conclusion that Cooper planned to jump as soon as possible after take off and that would be near Seattle.
Since the evidence and Cooper's actions supporting a jump near Seattle have been discussed at length both here and on DZ, there is no reason to post them here again. All you have to do is read the posts for yourself.
The jump near Seattle idea is not something that popped up last week. And we don't have to "debate" everything again for each new poster that turns up on these threads. Just read the posts.
-
Here's a question worth pondering:
What was Cooper's Plan A?
After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?
Cheers!
Since very few actual facts are known, let’s debate your opinion that Cooper’s original plan called for jumping near Seattle. I find that to be an interesting theory but I don’t see it any more logical or likely than many other’s theories.
Since you like to debate, let’s hear your theory of why you think it was apparent that his original plan was to jump near Seattle !
Kermit, in the now 11 years that I have been on the Cooper thread on DropZone and Shutter's thread, everyone who has examined the evidence seems to have come to the conclusion that Cooper planned to jump as soon as possible after take off and that would be near Seattle.
Since the evidence and Cooper's actions supporting a jump near Seattle have been discussed at length both here and on DZ, there is no reason to post them here again. All you have to do is read the posts for yourself.
The jump near Seattle idea is not something that popped up last week. And we don't have to "debate" everything again for each new poster that turns up on these threads. Just read the posts.
Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
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Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
The demands regarding the airstairs are clear per the FBI docs. Cooper wanted the airstairs down during takeoff. Scott debated this point with him and Cooper relented. Then several minutes later Cooper re-opened the discussion with Scott. Once again, Cooper relented.
Let me ask this question: If, as you suggest, Cooper intended to jump near Vancouver...
1) What does Cooper do if he has to abort his skyjacking attempt given he brought no clothes with him and the planned arrival was late on Thanksgiving Eve?
2) How could Cooper be certain that the pilots would actually fly a path anywhere near Vancouver given that he did not provide any flight path guidance?
3) How could he be certain to any degree which town or city was emanating a glow from below the clouds?
4) There is a hell of a lot of water around the Portland/Vancouver area, how could he be certain that he didn't end up in any of it which would amount to a death sentence?
5) Why wear a suit and loafers?
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On your previous: 2) The railroad tracks do not travel near or behind the Fazio's property. For those who care to look, they will note that the tracks are on the other side of Lake River. No one is honestly arguing that Cooper swam across a river to get to the "island" that Tena Bar is on only to hike another 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar, are they? Moreover, no one is honestly arguing that Cooper jumped off the train at the terminal in Vancouver then walked 7 miles north to Tena Bar, only to turn around and hike another 7 miles back to Vancouver, are they?
1. It is a 1.3 mile distance from the tracks to the water's edge at Tina Bar in 1971-1980!
2. Tina Bar is not an island! It is a beach on the Columbia River.
3. Swam the river? What river? Lake River formerly called Vancouver Creek, sometimes dries up in the summer according to residents in the area. During those months there is nothing to swim across. In the wetter parts of the year the water levels are cyclical, during floods a raging torrent which drains quickly. Your socalled "river" is a "creek" during most of the year according to local residents. Lake River socalled, or Vancouver Creek is a creek! That is why it was called a "creek" for decades.
4. Vancouver Creek is not 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar! Your math is wrong. It is at most about 1.3 miles.
5. Your last point is too hyperbolic to even comment on . . .
Please get the facts right for a change. Stop all of the BLUSTER! And stop all of the misinformation and hyperbolic 'Cooper byte' bs.
Most people familiar with this situation of the rail line from Amboy-Heisson south to Vancouver, speculate that Cooper probably got off at Vancouver when the train slowed at Vancouver. A fact you fail to site is the fact that trains passing east of the Fazio property are usually traveling fast - too fast to board or jump from! That is a legitimate argument. So most people actually believe Cooper would have left the train when it slowed at Vancouver ... and Cooper might have walked the bridge to get across the Columbia to Portland. That bridge offers many safety portals for workers, Cooper could have used crossing the bridge. That is the scenario most people knowledgeable of this matter chose.
All I did was post Snowmman's previous 2008 post on this matter BECAUSE. You jump to the conclusion I am expressing some kind of personal theory? And you pounce like Superman leaping tall buidings and all facts and logic in a single bound. Then it turns out your basic facts are even wrong! The very least you owe your loyal audience is correct basic facts!
Pardon me for breathing! :)
Bravo GEORGER, you are actually attempting to debate a point, although you are arguing a point you cannot win.
First, I did not direct my post (#2361) to you personally. Where did I say, "hey GEORGER you're theory is full of crap" or anything like that?
Second, Lake River is not a creek. Lake River is a river. It is never a creek--especially in November. That is why there are dozens of permanent house boat homes on Lake River along with a marina. It is at least 200 feet across and in some spots 300 feet across. Now you may be referring to a branch of Lake River that leads into Salmon Creek which leads to the main Lake River. That said, I can overlook this error because it is you who are not familiar with the area.
Third, Tena Bar is indeed located on what is effectively an island. I did not say Tena Bar was an island (SEE BOLD TYPE BELOW) It is completely surrounded by water--Columbia River, Lake River and Vancouver Lake--25 miles around. If it were not for a 400-foot land bridge three miles south of the Fazio property near Vancouver Lake, Tena Bar would literally be on an island.
Fourth, the shortest distance possible from the railroad tracks to Tena Bar is 1.3 miles. That is why I worded my statement that he would have had to swim Lake River and walk 2, 3, 4, 5 miles etc. depending upon where he actually swam across Lake River.
Fifth, if you read my point #2 carefully you will see that I do refer to the notion of DBC jumping off in Vancouver and walking 7 miles up to Tena Bar. For your convenience point #2 follows:
2) The railroad tracks do not travel near or behind the Fazio's property. For those who care to look, they will note that the tracks are on the other side of Lake River. No one is honestly arguing that Cooper swam across a river to get to the "island" that Tena Bar is on only to hike another 2,3,4 or 5 miles to Tena Bar, are they? Moreover, no one is honestly arguing that Cooper jumped off the train at the terminal in Vancouver then walked 7 miles north to Tena Bar, only to turn around and hike another 7 miles back to Vancouver, are they?
You see GEORGER, when you challenge me you will always lose. That is because I know what I am talking about...even though I was a commentator on a TV show called High Stakes Hold'em, ran for public office, occasionally smoke a cigar, and have a DBC show premiering this summer.
Cheers!
Admirable demonstration of the profile involved!
Very clearly we are in uncharted territory. Should children be allowed to watch?
Hey Diddle Diddle,
And the dish ran away with the spoon.
:o
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Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
The demands regarding the airstairs are clear per the FBI docs. Cooper wanted the airstairs down during takeoff. Scott debated this point with him and Cooper relented. Then several minutes later Cooper re-opened the discussion with Scott. Once again, Cooper relented.
Let me ask this question: If, as you suggest, Cooper intended to jump near Vancouver...
1) What does Cooper do if he has to abort his skyjacking attempt given he brought no clothes with him and the planned arrival was late on Thanksgiving Eve?
2) How could Cooper be certain that the pilots would actually fly a path anywhere near Vancouver given that he did not provide any flight path guidance?
3) How could he be certain to any degree which town or city was emanating a glow from below the clouds?
4) There is a hell of a lot of water around the Portland/Vancouver area, how could he be certain that he didn't end up in any of it which would amount to a death sentence?
5) Why wear a suit and loafers?
Why have ears .... feet ... and a naval! ? Consider evolution. :rofl:
-
Here's a question worth pondering:
What was Cooper's Plan A?
After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?
Cheers!
Since very few actual facts are known, let’s debate your opinion that Cooper’s original plan called for jumping near Seattle. I find that to be an interesting theory but I don’t see it any more logical or likely than many other’s theories.
Since you like to debate, let’s hear your theory of why you think it was apparent that his original plan was to jump near Seattle !
Kermit, in the now 11 years that I have been on the Cooper thread on DropZone and Shutter's thread, everyone who has examined the evidence seems to have come to the conclusion that Cooper planned to jump as soon as possible after take off and that would be near Seattle.
Since the evidence and Cooper's actions supporting a jump near Seattle have been discussed at length both here and on DZ, there is no reason to post them here again. All you have to do is read the posts for yourself.
The jump near Seattle idea is not something that popped up last week. And we don't have to "debate" everything again for each new poster that turns up on these threads. Just read the posts.
Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
Who is everyone? Well, you could get a good idea of who everyone is if you bothered to read the posts that predate your arrival here in 2017. In fact, there was a Cooper thread on DropZone that was started some time prior to the present one which was started in 2008 if I remember correctly.
There was no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper could have known his location to within 20 or 30 miles when he jumped. He would have to have made a wild guess as to his location. And he certainly was not dressed for a jump into a mountain or wilderness area. This little problem with an overcast and several additional cloud layers below the airliner means that Cooper could not see the ground and couldn't know what flight path the airliner was taking. Then with the airliner's airspeed varying widely during the first 15 minutes or so after taking off, Cooper could not possibly have known its location along any flight path.
There is no indication whatsoever that Cooper had an assistant in the hijacking. His fate was determined solely by himself.
For additional information, read the posts both here on Shutter's site and on DropZone.
-
Here's a question worth pondering:
What was Cooper's Plan A?
After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?
Cheers!
Since very few actual facts are known, let’s debate your opinion that Cooper’s original plan called for jumping near Seattle. I find that to be an interesting theory but I don’t see it any more logical or likely than many other’s theories.
Since you like to debate, let’s hear your theory of why you think it was apparent that his original plan was to jump near Seattle !
Kermit, in the now 11 years that I have been on the Cooper thread on DropZone and Shutter's thread, everyone who has examined the evidence seems to have come to the conclusion that Cooper planned to jump as soon as possible after take off and that would be near Seattle.
Since the evidence and Cooper's actions supporting a jump near Seattle have been discussed at length both here and on DZ, there is no reason to post them here again. All you have to do is read the posts for yourself.
The jump near Seattle idea is not something that popped up last week. And we don't have to "debate" everything again for each new poster that turns up on these threads. Just read the posts.
Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
Who is everyone? Well, you could get a good idea of who everyone is if you bothered to read the posts that predate your arrival here in 2017. In fact, there was a Cooper thread on DropZone that was started some time prior to the present one which was started in 2008 if I remember correctly.
There was no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper could have known his location to within 20 or 30 miles when he jumped. He would have to have made a wild guess as to his location. And he certainly was not dressed for a jump into a mountain or wilderness area. This little problem with an overcast and several additional cloud layers below the airliner means that Cooper could not see the ground and couldn't know what flight path the airliner was taking. Then with the airliner's airspeed varying widely during the first 15 minutes or so after taking off, Cooper could not possibly have known its location along any flight path.
There is no indication whatsoever that Cooper had an assistant in the hijacking. His fate was determined solely by himself.
For additional information, read the posts both here on Shutter's site and on DropZone.
Robert, spare me the condescending comments. I've read plenty on the case. I joined in 2018, not 2017. You obviously have some time on your hands, so why don't you go back to the posts and compile a list of who thinks he wanted to jump near Seattle, and who thinks he wanted to jump near Vancouver, or somewhere else. There are about 20-30 people max who study the case now, if you want I can give you a list of names and you can let me know what they all think. Kermit, me, and Flyjack think he wanted to jump somewhere else than Seattle. That's three. Let me know what you find.
You speak in absolutes. This case does not have a lot of absolutes. It's almost 50 years old and unsolved, so no one knows for sure.
The whole flight path was what 135 miles? And you don't think he could have known where he was within 30 miles? How often do you fly these days? Try out taking off and timing a flight from city to city. I've been doing it ever since I joined here, it's not hard to do between short hops like Seattle to Portland. Up until a week ago I flew commercial at least once a month, some long trips, but mainly 2 hours or less.
Be angry at someone else. I speak using facts when I can, and theory/opinion when I can't. I use observation and deduction. If you don't like my theories, no problem.
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Here's a question worth pondering:
What was Cooper's Plan A?
After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?
Cheers!
Since very few actual facts are known, let’s debate your opinion that Cooper’s original plan called for jumping near Seattle. I find that to be an interesting theory but I don’t see it any more logical or likely than many other’s theories.
Since you like to debate, let’s hear your theory of why you think it was apparent that his original plan was to jump near Seattle !
Kermit, in the now 11 years that I have been on the Cooper thread on DropZone and Shutter's thread, everyone who has examined the evidence seems to have come to the conclusion that Cooper planned to jump as soon as possible after take off and that would be near Seattle.
Since the evidence and Cooper's actions supporting a jump near Seattle have been discussed at length both here and on DZ, there is no reason to post them here again. All you have to do is read the posts for yourself.
The jump near Seattle idea is not something that popped up last week. And we don't have to "debate" everything again for each new poster that turns up on these threads. Just read the posts.
Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
Cooper chose and put on a chute as soon as chutes were brought on board. He then issued a brand new list of demands conveyed through Tina to the cockpit which required discussion and resolution. In that confusion he also complained the fueling was taking too long and the knapsack had not been provided so ... he tried to fabricate a container for the money he could tie to his chute or himself ... all the while negotiating the stews leaving and getting the rear door open and stairs down. Long passage of time required. Sun and Moon going down!
If he had intended or needed to jump 'near Seattle' all he had to do was bypass HIS new list of demands, put on a chute, get passengers off the plane, skip refueling, get the rear hole opened, get airborne, and jump! The plane landed with enough fuel to get back airborne immediately as soon as chutes were delivered, if that is what Cooper wanted and intended.
Cooper did none of that because he never intended to jump 'near Seattle'!
Jumping near Seattle is as "jumping near Seattle" DOES! Cooper's plan and intentions are clearly demonstrated by WHAT HE DID! And in the order he did it. Cooper had a straight path to landing and getting back in the air quickly and jumping near Seattle if that's what he wanted. He did the exact opposite.
Larry Carr's assumption was that Cooper was an idiot and had no control over events. Cooper was not an idiot and he did exactly what he originally wanted to do in the order he wanted to do it in (his original plan) - he consumed time and allowed time to pass! - which he could have avoided completely if he had wanted to get back airborne and jump near Seattle!
Knowledge/plan = Performance. Those are the well tested principles of Psychology & Testing refined over 100 years of psychological testing. Everything else people propose is bullshit.
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Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
The demands regarding the airstairs are clear per the FBI docs. Cooper wanted the airstairs down during takeoff. Scott debated this point with him and Cooper relented. Then several minutes later Cooper re-opened the discussion with Scott. Once again, Cooper relented.
Let me ask this question: If, as you suggest, Cooper intended to jump near Vancouver...
1) What does Cooper do if he has to abort his skyjacking attempt given he brought no clothes with him and the planned arrival was late on Thanksgiving Eve?
2) How could Cooper be certain that the pilots would actually fly a path anywhere near Vancouver given that he did not provide any flight path guidance?
3) How could he be certain to any degree which town or city was emanating a glow from below the clouds?
4) There is a hell of a lot of water around the Portland/Vancouver area, how could he be certain that he didn't end up in any of it which would amount to a death sentence?
5) Why wear a suit and loafers?
EU good questions. I had an answer typed and got logged out, I'll get back to it. What do you mean by question 1, abort? As in he boards the plane in Portland and does not hijack it, therefore landing in Seattle and getting off?
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I have flown out of Seattle hundreds of times.
Given that the jet was heading to Reno--not Portland--it is entirely plausible that the jet could have flown due east to the Yakima area, then down to Reno, or headed north toward Everett before heading east and ultimately down to Reno, or headed toward the Washington coast before heading south then ultimately east to Reno.
There are way too many variables especially when you consider this was not your typical flight. Therefore, there is no way Cooper could have possibly known where the jet would be 36 minutes after takeoff flying in the soup at night.
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Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
The demands regarding the airstairs are clear per the FBI docs. Cooper wanted the airstairs down during takeoff. Scott debated this point with him and Cooper relented. Then several minutes later Cooper re-opened the discussion with Scott. Once again, Cooper relented.
Let me ask this question: If, as you suggest, Cooper intended to jump near Vancouver...
1) What does Cooper do if he has to abort his skyjacking attempt given he brought no clothes with him and the planned arrival was late on Thanksgiving Eve?
2) How could Cooper be certain that the pilots would actually fly a path anywhere near Vancouver given that he did not provide any flight path guidance?
3) How could he be certain to any degree which town or city was emanating a glow from below the clouds?
4) There is a hell of a lot of water around the Portland/Vancouver area, how could he be certain that he didn't end up in any of it which would amount to a death sentence?
5) Why wear a suit and loafers?
EU good questions. I had an answer typed and got logged out, I'll get back to it. What do you mean by question 1, abort? As in he boards the plane in Portland and does not hijack it, therefore landing in Seattle and getting off?
EU is over thinking everything ......... to stretch out his career as an important self authorised expert on the DB Cooper case. Next month it will be Oak Island or something else! EU is a promoter and a mouthpiece who earns his living by promotions and productions.
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I have flown out of Seattle hundreds of times.
Given that the jet was heading to Reno--not Portland--it is entirely plausible that the jet could have flown due east to the Yakima area, then down to Reno, or headed north toward Everett before heading east and ultimately down to Reno, or headed toward the Washington coast before heading south then ultimately east to Reno.
There are way too many variables especially when you consider this was not your typical flight. Therefore, there is no way Cooper could have possibly known where the jet would be 36 minutes after takeoff flying in the soup at night.
That means that you are not as smart as Cooper was!
Cooper was DB Cooper. You are an ELVIS impersonator trying to hijack the Cooper case for self promotion and financial gain!
You are simply profiting off what DB Cooper did - by any means you can. Its all Koolaide for the masses ...
:rofl:
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EU good questions. I had an answer typed and got logged out, I'll get back to it. What do you mean by question 1, abort? As in he boards the plane in Portland and does not hijack it, therefore landing in Seattle and getting off?
Yes precisely.
I believe this is often overlooked. Nonetheless, it seems likely that Cooper would have pondered this possibility.
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EU good questions. I had an answer typed and got logged out, I'll get back to it. What do you mean by question 1, abort? As in he boards the plane in Portland and does not hijack it, therefore landing in Seattle and getting off?
Yes precisely.
I believe this is often overlooked. Nonetheless, it seems likely that Cooper would have pondered this possibility.
You believe.
You believe Tina Bar is an island! And holding and playing with a cigar for a camera equals intelligence! :rofl:
I believe you believe theatrics and polemics is more powerful than science or common sense and will win the day!
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That means that you are not as smart as Cooper was!
Cooper was DB Cooper. You are an ELVIS impersonator trying to hijack the Cooper case for self promotion and financial gain!
You are simply profiting off what DB Cooper did -
:rofl:
You're on the wrong site GEORGER. You need to hang out with the children at the DZ. You know, the ones who lie non-stop, whine and pretend they're relevant and that anyone actually gives a damn what they say about the Cooper case.
Perhaps that's why they spend all of their time digging up speeding tickets from 1989, accusing me of domestic abuse (of course I challenged TrollJack to put his money where his mouth is on this salacious charge by wagering a $1000 bet for charity...Needless to say, TrollJack had to back off and ponder whether I plead guilty, entered a domestic diversion program, then somehow expunged all of the records) and accuse me of stealing my own research into the case.
Yes GEORGER, the DZ is where you should play, whine, and troll with your kin.
It would be very nice if SHUTTER simply removed you from this site. Your type are not wanted.
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By the way GEORGER, you constantly complain about me making money.
What is it with you and your hate of money? Apparently you don't believe in capitalism. What, is communism more your thing?
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Its simple.
If Cooper had wanted to, or needed to jump near Seattle. all he had to do was order the plane back in the air immediately after receipt of the chutes and the money, focus on getting the door open, and jump. The plane had enough fuel to be airborne immediately.
Cooper himself did the exact opposite. Upon delivery of the chutes he issued a long list of brand new instructions which were going to require time to process. He did it himself! That cancelled jumping near Seattle. It also gave time for law enforcement to set up plans for a local area capture which is the last thing he wanted.
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By the way GEORGER, you constantly complain about me making money.
What is it with you and your hate of money? Apparently you don't believe in capitalism. What, is communism more your thing?
REMOVED
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By the way GEORGER, you constantly complain about me making money.
What is it with you and your hate of money? Apparently you don't believe in capitalism. What, is communism more your thing?
STFU troll.
Seriously, if you went over to the Dropzone they could aptly rename it the Trollzone.
You need psychological help!
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You need psychological help!
Wow, powerful comeback.
You know what is unbelievable here? I am having a normal engaging conversation with someone else on the site. Then you decide to butt in in your usual dick way. Then you actually have the audacity to accuse me of creating the problem when I tell you to go F yourself.
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Here's a question worth pondering:
What was Cooper's Plan A?
After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?
Cheers!
Since very few actual facts are known, let’s debate your opinion that Cooper’s original plan called for jumping near Seattle. I find that to be an interesting theory but I don’t see it any more logical or likely than many other’s theories.
Since you like to debate, let’s hear your theory of why you think it was apparent that his original plan was to jump near Seattle !
Kermit, in the now 11 years that I have been on the Cooper thread on DropZone and Shutter's thread, everyone who has examined the evidence seems to have come to the conclusion that Cooper planned to jump as soon as possible after take off and that would be near Seattle.
Since the evidence and Cooper's actions supporting a jump near Seattle have been discussed at length both here and on DZ, there is no reason to post them here again. All you have to do is read the posts for yourself.
The jump near Seattle idea is not something that popped up last week. And we don't have to "debate" everything again for each new poster that turns up on these threads. Just read the posts.
Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
Who is everyone? Well, you could get a good idea of who everyone is if you bothered to read the posts that predate your arrival here in 2017. In fact, there was a Cooper thread on DropZone that was started some time prior to the present one which was started in 2008 if I remember correctly.
There was no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper could have known his location to within 20 or 30 miles when he jumped. He would have to have made a wild guess as to his location. And he certainly was not dressed for a jump into a mountain or wilderness area. This little problem with an overcast and several additional cloud layers below the airliner means that Cooper could not see the ground and couldn't know what flight path the airliner was taking. Then with the airliner's airspeed varying widely during the first 15 minutes or so after taking off, Cooper could not possibly have known its location along any flight path.
There is no indication whatsoever that Cooper had an assistant in the hijacking. His fate was determined solely by himself.
For additional information, read the posts both here on Shutter's site and on DropZone.
Robert, spare me the condescending comments. I've read plenty on the case. I joined in 2018, not 2017. You obviously have some time on your hands, so why don't you go back to the posts and compile a list of who thinks he wanted to jump near Seattle, and who thinks he wanted to jump near Vancouver, or somewhere else. There are about 20-30 people max who study the case now, if you want I can give you a list of names and you can let me know what they all think. Kermit, me, and Flyjack think he wanted to jump somewhere else than Seattle. That's three. Let me know what you find.
You speak in absolutes. This case does not have a lot of absolutes. It's almost 50 years old and unsolved, so no one knows for sure.
The whole flight path was what 135 miles? And you don't think he could have known where he was within 30 miles? How often do you fly these days? Try out taking off and timing a flight from city to city. I've been doing it ever since I joined here, it's not hard to do between short hops like Seattle to Portland. Up until a week ago I flew commercial at least once a month, some long trips, but mainly 2 hours or less.
Be angry at someone else. I speak using facts when I can, and theory/opinion when I can't. I use observation and deduction. If you don't like my theories, no problem.
Fcastle, You need to read my post that you quoted just above. Telling you that you need to read the previous posts on this and the DZ sites does not mean that I am angry with you. Perhaps you could also pass the word to Kermit and Flyjack about reading previous posts.
You are going to have to do your own research. I have posted extensively on this matter at least a dozen times over the last decade and I am not going to waste more time doing it again when the information is readily available online. I am not a member of the Cooper vortex and have a real life with other activities ongoing.
You need to take a good look at a map and determine the true distance between SEATAC and Portland. It is not the 135 miles that you claim. Also, you need to check in with the FAA's superb web site and download and read some of their publications related to navigation. You might find them informative.
I have done my fair share of long flights from point to point in the middle of the night with me being the only person on the aircraft. That means I must have been able to navigate successfully between those points since here I am writing this post.
There are a handful of "absolutes" in the Cooper matter. And I have previously discussed them online in case you are interested.
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My Two Cents:
I'm not inclined to believe that Cooper planned to jump immediately after takeoff and land somewhere near Seattle.
Did he intend to jump near Vancouver/Portland, instead? Maybe. More to the point, I don't know.
Rather, DB Cooper seemed ready to land wherever the plane took him, whenever he was ready to jump.
To me, the biggest unanswered question regarding all of this is: what was he doing after Tina left him? He had his chute on, his money bag was getting tied to himself, and yet he waited another half-hour or so before he jumped. How come? What was he doing? Why did he wait?
Was he positioning himself? Was he doing something to his gear we don't know about? Those are the questions I ponder most.
As for jumping near Seattle, if I was DBC I'd be hesitant to jump so soon and land in someone's backyard, especially when every TV set in Seattle was tuned to the hijacking story unfolding in their bailiwick.
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Well it appears that most people vote for an LZ away from Seattle. How is it that R99 and I are yet again the only two who are correct about this? :D
Cooper didn't just jump with the parachute. He also jumped with the dummy reserve and the attache case which I believe were not simply thrown out the back. This necessitates securing these items to his person as well, which takes time.
Additionally, remember that Tina was required to stay in back with him during the take-off and for a few minutes into the flight because he could not convince Scott to depart with the airstairs down. Apparently Cooper felt that securing the bomb to his person in front of Tina was not prudent, therefore he waited, thus delaying his jump even more.
The jump-in-the-outskirts-of-Seattle window came and went very quickly.
Why did Cooper wait even longer to jump? Because he realized that he could not jump into utter blackness. He needed to wait to see the glow of civilization approaching to be assured that he could jump reasonably safely.
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Welcome Fcastle and many others who have a clear and open mind. We don’t need to accept other opinions as being factual ! Contrary to some posters opinions, our thoughts
and logic is just as good and perhaps better than those opinions that were made 10, 20, 30, 40 or 48 years ago. Just for the record I joined this forum around 2007 but I was in Portland in 1971. I live there since my folks moved to Portland area in 1946 from Minnesota. I fished and water skied every square mile of the Columbia river from Bonneville dam to Buoy 10 at the mouth of the Columbia river. I drove around Tina Bar in and before 1971 and I drove there just yesterday ! Guess what ? There were 18 wheelers driving around there also! I’m pretty positive Tina Bar is NOT an Island. Also I’ve asked Eric to please explain to me why any person would seriously decide to bury the entire equivalent of $ 1,200,000. Dollars on a public beach which was frequently visited by fisherman on a daily basis. I’m sorry but I fail to find it logical ! He didn’t have any answer a year ago and I’d be very interested in how he explains it today. You see some thoughts are as relevant today as they were 48 years ago ! Welcome aboard all you logical thinkers and no it’s not necessary to always rehash old posts.
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Welcome Fcastle and many others who have a clear and open mind. We don’t need to accept other opinions as being factual ! Contrary to some posters opinions, our thoughts
and logic is just as good and perhaps better than those opinions that were made 10, 20, 30, 40 or 48 years ago. Just for the record I joined this forum around 2007 but I was in Portland in 1971. I live there since my folks moved to Portland area in 1946 from Minnesota. I fished and water skied every square mile of the Columbia river from Bonneville dam to Buoy 10 at the mouth of the Columbia river. I drove around Tina Bar in and before 1971 and I drove there just yesterday ! Guess what ? There were 18 wheelers driving around there also! I’m pretty positive Tina Bar is NOT an Island. Also I’ve asked Eric to please explain to me why any person would seriously decide to bury the entire equivalent of $ 1,200,000. Dollars on a public beach which was frequently visited by fisherman on a daily basis. I’m sorry but I fail to find it logical ! He didn’t have any answer a year ago and I’d be very interested in how he explains it today. You see some thoughts are as relevant today as they were 48 years ago ! Welcome aboard all you logical thinkers and no it’s not necessary to always rehash old posts.
I have no issue answering your questions:
Q) Tena Bar is not an island.
A) That is correct, Tena Bar is not an island. Rather it is on what is effectively an island. If you look at a map of the area you will see that the land mass that Tena Bar is located upon is surrounded by water on all sides to the tune of about 25 miles. The lone exception is a land bridge near Vancouver Lake where the road travels. This is critically important because if Cooper walked to Tena Bar he either landed on the "island" or he didn't land on the island. If he didn't land on the island then he would have to get onto the island. And getting onto the island would require that he either cross over some of that 25 miles of surrounding water, or walk several miles up from Vancouver, thereby requiring him to walk several miles back to Vancouver. Again, this is critically important because if he decided to cross over that ring of water somewhere, there is only one possible location he could do this...the River "S" Bridge about 7 miles north of Tena Bar in the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge. Otherwise, he would have to swim. Needless to say, that seems unlikely.
Q) Why would Cooper bury the equivalent of $1.2 million?
A) What choice does he have if he lands in the area? Is he going to walk into town carrying a 20 pound white bank bag full of cash? Again, this is not likely. Cooper would recognize that he has to temporarily stash the ransom so he can walk back to civilization without raising suspicion. Then, I assume he would use a car to retrieve the ransom a day or two later...presumably at night. There is no reasonable rationale whereby Cooper already has the ransom secured in the trunk of his car, then drives to Tena Bar to bury the cash. This is why it is reasonable to assume that Cooper walked to Tena Bar, thereby suggesting that he landed within walking distance of Tena Bar.
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Welcome Fcastle and many others who have a clear and open mind. We don’t need to accept other opinions as being factual ! Contrary to some posters opinions, our thoughts
and logic is just as good and perhaps better than those opinions that were made 10, 20, 30, 40 or 48 years ago. Just for the record I joined this forum around 2007 but I was in Portland in 1971. I live there since my folks moved to Portland area in 1946 from Minnesota. I fished and water skied every square mile of the Columbia river from Bonneville dam to Buoy 10 at the mouth of the Columbia river. I drove around Tina Bar in and before 1971 and I drove there just yesterday ! Guess what ? There were 18 wheelers driving around there also! I’m pretty positive Tina Bar is NOT an Island. Also I’ve asked Eric to please explain to me why any person would seriously decide to bury the entire equivalent of $ 1,200,000. Dollars on a public beach which was frequently visited by fisherman on a daily basis. I’m sorry but I fail to find it logical ! He didn’t have any answer a year ago and I’d be very interested in how he explains it today. You see some thoughts are as relevant today as they were 48 years ago ! Welcome aboard all you logical thinkers and no it’s not necessary to always rehash old posts.
I have no issue answering your questions:
Q) Tena Bar is not an island.
A) That is correct, Tena Bar is not an island. Rather it is on what is effectively an island. If you look at a map of the area you will see that the land mass that Tena Bar is located upon is surrounded by water on all sides to the tune of about 25 miles. The lone exception is a land bridge near Vancouver Lake where the road travels. This is critically important because if Cooper walked to Tena Bar he either landed on the "island" or he didn't land on the island. If he didn't land on the island then he would have to get onto the island. And getting onto the island would require that he either cross over some of that 25 miles of surrounding water, or walk several miles up from Vancouver, thereby requiring him to walk several miles back to Vancouver. Again, this is critically important because if he decided to cross over that ring of water somewhere, there is only one possible location he could do this...the River "S" Bridge about 7 miles north of Tena Bar in the Ridgefield National Wildlife Refuge. Otherwise, he would have to swim. Needless to say, that seems unlikely.
Q) Why would Cooper bury the equivalent of $1.2 million?
A) What choice does he have if he lands in the area? Is he going to walk into town carrying a 20 pound white bank bag full of cash? Again, this is not likely. Cooper would recognize that he has to temporarily stash the ransom so he can walk back to civilization without raising suspicion. Then, I assume he would use a car to retrieve the ransom a day or two later...presumably at night. There is no reasonable rationale whereby Cooper already has the ransom secured in the trunk of his car, then drives to Tena Bar to bury the cash. This is why it is reasonable to assume that Cooper walked to Tena Bar, thereby suggesting that he landed within walking distance of Tena Bar.
Sorry Eric but you can’t answer either question by stating what is clearly your opinions but has no factual relevance ! First off Tina Bar is not surrounded by water and you know it so quit referring to it as an Island. If a 18 wheeler can drive there so can you, I or Dan Cooper ! Also once again you are expressing your opinion that Cooper was actually setting foot on Tina Bar and burying the money on Tina Bar. This opinion is just that .... your opinion. It’s not a fact as many of us share other opinions. If it was a fact, then where’s the proof. Many are right now trying to figure out how the money got there and somehow you know how it got there ! Interesting ?
As to you coming up somehow Cooper must swim to get to Tina Bar, I guess my car and The 18 wheelers I observed must be great swimmers. Of course many and I’d bet good money that most don’t believe Cooper had any reason to go to Tina Bar. However if I had $1,200,000, I wouldn’t dream of burying it on a well visited public beach ! You’ve been there and there are far better places around to hide the money. Besides that is a very large bag to try to hide in wet sand on a public beach. Once again.... logic ! It sounds illogical to me but I’d be interested in other posters opinion.
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Sorry Eric but you can’t answer either question by stating what is clearly your opinions but has no factual relevance ! First off Tina Bar is not surrounded by water and you know it so quit referring to it as an Island. If a 18 wheeler can drive there so can you, I or Dan Cooper ! Also once again you are expressing your opinion that Cooper was actually setting foot on Tina Bar and burying the money on Tina Bar. This opinion is just that .... your opinion. It’s not a fact as many of us share other opinions. If it was a fact, then where’s the proof. Many are right now trying to figure out how the money got there and somehow you know how it got there ! Interesting ?
As to you coming up somehow Cooper must swim to get to Tina Bar, I guess my car and The 18 wheelers I observed must be great swimmers. Of course many and I’d bet good money that most don’t believe Cooper had any reason to go to Tina Bar. However if I had $1,200,000, I wouldn’t dream of burying it on a well visited public beach ! You’ve been there and there are far better places around to hide the money. Besides that is a very large bag to try to hide in wet sand on a public beach. Once again.... logic ! It sounds illogical to me but I’d be interested in other posters opinion.
I feel I have made my points abundantly clear. The rest is up to you.
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Sorry Eric but you can’t answer either question by stating what is clearly your opinions but has no factual relevance ! First off Tina Bar is not surrounded by water and you know it so quit referring to it as an Island. If a 18 wheeler can drive there so can you, I or Dan Cooper ! Also once again you are expressing your opinion that Cooper was actually setting foot on Tina Bar and burying the money on Tina Bar. This opinion is just that .... your opinion. It’s not a fact as many of us share other opinions. If it was a fact, then where’s the proof. Many are right now trying to figure out how the money got there and somehow you know how it got there ! Interesting ?
As to you coming up somehow Cooper must swim to get to Tina Bar, I guess my car and The 18 wheelers I observed must be great swimmers. Of course many and I’d bet good money that most don’t believe Cooper had any reason to go to Tina Bar. However if I had $1,200,000, I wouldn’t dream of burying it on a well visited public beach ! You’ve been there and there are far better places around to hide the money. Besides that is a very large bag to try to hide in wet sand on a public beach. Once again.... logic ! It sounds illogical to me but I’d be interested in other posters opinion.
I feel I have made my points abundantly clear. The rest is up to you.
Seriously ? You haven’t cleared up anything but you’ve come up with your theories which many of us find illogical. So once again you dodge the obvious question of why on earth would anyone decide to hide $1,200,000 on a public beach frequented daily by fisherman ! I know .... it’s a hard one to explain !
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Will see what Eric’s tests turn up. I agree with G and Kermit on this one doesn’t seem to logical to me. If you wanted to bury the money there are definitely better options. My opinion is cooper had the money in a bag and dropped it off a bridge or boat into the Columbia in the summer of 79.
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I don't have the time right now to start removing posts made today and will deal with this tomorrow. I suggest EVERYONE start discussing the case here or I'll just lock all the threads down and take a long vacation.
Are we CRYSTAL CLEAR?
Shutter
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Welcome Fcastle and many others who have a clear and open mind. We don’t need to accept other opinions as being factual ! Contrary to some posters opinions, our thoughts
and logic is just as good and perhaps better than those opinions that were made 10, 20, 30, 40 or 48 years ago. Just for the record I joined this forum around 2007 but I was in Portland in 1971. I live there since my folks moved to Portland area in 1946 from Minnesota. I fished and water skied every square mile of the Columbia river from Bonneville dam to Buoy 10 at the mouth of the Columbia river. I drove around Tina Bar in and before 1971 and I drove there just yesterday ! Guess what ? There were 18 wheelers driving around there also! I’m pretty positive Tina Bar is NOT an Island. Also I’ve asked Eric to please explain to me why any person would seriously decide to bury the entire equivalent of $ 1,200,000. Dollars on a public beach which was frequently visited by fisherman on a daily basis. I’m sorry but I fail to find it logical ! He didn’t have any answer a year ago and I’d be very interested in how he explains it today. You see some thoughts are as relevant today as they were 48 years ago ! Welcome aboard all you logical thinkers and no it’s not necessary to always rehash old posts.
Kermit, What does your clear and open mind say about Key West, Florida? Is it an island? I don't specifically remember seeing any 18 wheelers driving around there, but I do remember seeing about 100 miles worth of bridges and a heck of a lot of water in driving to Key West.
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Here's a question worth pondering:
What was Cooper's Plan A?
After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?
Cheers!
Since very few actual facts are known, let’s debate your opinion that Cooper’s original plan called for jumping near Seattle. I find that to be an interesting theory but I don’t see it any more logical or likely than many other’s theories.
Since you like to debate, let’s hear your theory of why you think it was apparent that his original plan was to jump near Seattle !
Kermit, in the now 11 years that I have been on the Cooper thread on DropZone and Shutter's thread, everyone who has examined the evidence seems to have come to the conclusion that Cooper planned to jump as soon as possible after take off and that would be near Seattle.
Since the evidence and Cooper's actions supporting a jump near Seattle have been discussed at length both here and on DZ, there is no reason to post them here again. All you have to do is read the posts for yourself.
The jump near Seattle idea is not something that popped up last week. And we don't have to "debate" everything again for each new poster that turns up on these threads. Just read the posts.
Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
Who is everyone? Well, you could get a good idea of who everyone is if you bothered to read the posts that predate your arrival here in 2017. In fact, there was a Cooper thread on DropZone that was started some time prior to the present one which was started in 2008 if I remember correctly.
There was no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper could have known his location to within 20 or 30 miles when he jumped. He would have to have made a wild guess as to his location. And he certainly was not dressed for a jump into a mountain or wilderness area. This little problem with an overcast and several additional cloud layers below the airliner means that Cooper could not see the ground and couldn't know what flight path the airliner was taking. Then with the airliner's airspeed varying widely during the first 15 minutes or so after taking off, Cooper could not possibly have known its location along any flight path.
There is no indication whatsoever that Cooper had an assistant in the hijacking. His fate was determined solely by himself.
For additional information, read the posts both here on Shutter's site and on DropZone.
Robert, spare me the condescending comments. I've read plenty on the case. I joined in 2018, not 2017. You obviously have some time on your hands, so why don't you go back to the posts and compile a list of who thinks he wanted to jump near Seattle, and who thinks he wanted to jump near Vancouver, or somewhere else. There are about 20-30 people max who study the case now, if you want I can give you a list of names and you can let me know what they all think. Kermit, me, and Flyjack think he wanted to jump somewhere else than Seattle. That's three. Let me know what you find.
You speak in absolutes. This case does not have a lot of absolutes. It's almost 50 years old and unsolved, so no one knows for sure.
The whole flight path was what 135 miles? And you don't think he could have known where he was within 30 miles? How often do you fly these days? Try out taking off and timing a flight from city to city. I've been doing it ever since I joined here, it's not hard to do between short hops like Seattle to Portland. Up until a week ago I flew commercial at least once a month, some long trips, but mainly 2 hours or less.
Be angry at someone else. I speak using facts when I can, and theory/opinion when I can't. I use observation and deduction. If you don't like my theories, no problem.
Fcastle, You need to read my post that you quoted just above. Telling you that you need to read the previous posts on this and the DZ sites does not mean that I am angry with you. Perhaps you could also pass the word to Kermit and Flyjack about reading previous posts.
You are going to have to do your own research. I have posted extensively on this matter at least a dozen times over the last decade and I am not going to waste more time doing it again when the information is readily available online. I am not a member of the Cooper vortex and have a real life with other activities ongoing.
You need to take a good look at a map and determine the true distance between SEATAC and Portland. It is not the 135 miles that you claim. Also, you need to check in with the FAA's superb web site and download and read some of their publications related to navigation. You might find them informative.
I have done my fair share of long flights from point to point in the middle of the night with me being the only person on the aircraft. That means I must have been able to navigate successfully between those points since here I am writing this post.
There are a handful of "absolutes" in the Cooper matter. And I have previously discussed them online in case you are interested.
Robert: What is the air to air distance from SEATAC to PDX? I wrote 135 miles, because that's what I remember from my notes, but those are on a mish mash of Word and PowerPoint docs and in folders. I wish I had kept a better log like Bruce, but I never really planned to need to go back to the notes I made literally within a few days of joining this case.
I believe that if Cooper was a trained pilot or navigator, then he would have been able to judge where he was. He was likely a World War II era veteran, and if he was on a plane in the 1940s or 50s then he would have learned to figure out his location without a radio beacon, odometer, GPS, etc. That's what I believe. Opinion, whatever you want to call it. No need to debate this point. We disagree.
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Unless Cooper was delusional, he had to know it would take time to meet his original demands - didn't he order everything to be ready in 30 minutes ? That's what I recall. That was unrealistic and any passage of time is only going to allow LE to marshal it's forces (including a Ntl Guard helicopter) if there is any hint the subject is going to jump soon after taking off, near Seattle.
Then it turns out the hijacker has another list of demands ... he gives those when the chutes are finally delivered! More time must now be consumed! More time for LE to marshal it's forces!
His original 30 minute request was unrealistic. Who would guess he also has a second list of demands to put on the table, later! And he planned to bail near Seattle? Why not just jump from the plane to the tarmac where the plane is parked at SEA! ? Now he has jumped at Seattle as per his original plan! (with LE gathered around him on the ground demanding: "Can I pleaze keep the money!"
If you assume Cooper was a rational player and people's knowledge and intentions closely match their performance, then Cooper never had any plan to bail at or near Seattle.
:rofl:
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Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
The demands regarding the airstairs are clear per the FBI docs. Cooper wanted the airstairs down during takeoff. Scott debated this point with him and Cooper relented. Then several minutes later Cooper re-opened the discussion with Scott. Once again, Cooper relented.
Let me ask this question: If, as you suggest, Cooper intended to jump near Vancouver...
1) What does Cooper do if he has to abort his skyjacking attempt given he brought no clothes with him and the planned arrival was late on Thanksgiving Eve?
2) How could Cooper be certain that the pilots would actually fly a path anywhere near Vancouver given that he did not provide any flight path guidance?
3) How could he be certain to any degree which town or city was emanating a glow from below the clouds?
4) There is a hell of a lot of water around the Portland/Vancouver area, how could he be certain that he didn't end up in any of it which would amount to a death sentence?
5) Why wear a suit and loafers?
EU: I'm just getting back to this. Some of these debates may end up being part of a lifeline for many of us as the days locked up start to get to us. With that said, I'll throw some of my ideas out on this. None of which prove or disprove a suspect. They are just ideas.
1) What does Cooper do if he has to abort his skyjacking attempt given he brought no clothes with him and the planned arrival was late on Thanksgiving Eve?
A part of me thinks that Cooper may have wanted to abort, and maybe even planned to, but things kept going right for him. If he did abort, I suspect it is as simple as him landing in Seattle and getting off the plane. If he was alone on a business trip and Seattle was not his final destination, then I guess he would have to fly back to Portland, or drive, or take a bus, etc. Someone might have been expecting him and been worried, who knows. So many things could have gone wrong for him, so flying to Seattle as a regular passenger had to be a real possibility for him. I'll have to think some more about this one.
2) How could Cooper be certain that the pilots would actually fly a path anywhere near Vancouver given that he did not provide any flight path guidance?
R99 is already on edge about this one. I've stated a few of my points. I think he would assume the plane would have to fly south at some point, and once he leaves the cities of Seattle and Tacoma, the next time he sees civilization should be Vancouver/Portland. Bottom line is that he could not be certain of the flight path, he could however increase his odds by stating a southern point and an altitude. If he had a death wish, then as a gambler all he had to do was turn the odds a little in his favor, like watching cards in blackjack or poker. I think he got very very lucky, but he also had some preparation.
3) How could he be certain to any degree which town or city was emanating a glow from below the clouds?
What are the options of what city it is if he sees a glow? There aren't many to choose from, especially if he's been seeing nothing but darkness for a while. The plane leaves South Seattle what does he see next?
4) There is a hell of a lot of water around the Portland/Vancouver area, how could he be certain that he didn't end up in any of it which would amount to a death sentence?
He wants to jump before the river, which is the main body of water. If someone were to take a snapshot of the general landing area, maybe a 10 mile by 10 mile or a 5 mile by 5 mile, what percent of that would be land and what percent would be water? It's around 95% land, maybe more. The odds are he would have landed on land. I guess it's also possible that he was brazen and thought he could survive landing in the water. Water seems pretty easy to get out of until you've tried to do it with a parachute on. Or maybe he knew how to get out of the water. Skilled or not, landing in the river was not a good option.
5) Why wear a suit and loafers?
Jumping in loafers meant landing in socks. Something does not fit there for me. He had to have done something with his feet (changed shoes, taped the shoes to his ankles) or maybe the loafers were not loafers. We still don't know what was in the bag. Why wear a suit and loafers? Because wearing jeans and motorcycle boots just would not have been as cool.
Just some thoughts. I could play devil's advocate and probably come up with opposite theories too, but these are what are in my mind.
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Here's a question worth pondering:
What was Cooper's Plan A?
After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?
Cheers!
Since very few actual facts are known, let’s debate your opinion that Cooper’s original plan called for jumping near Seattle. I find that to be an interesting theory but I don’t see it any more logical or likely than many other’s theories.
Since you like to debate, let’s hear your theory of why you think it was apparent that his original plan was to jump near Seattle !
Kermit, in the now 11 years that I have been on the Cooper thread on DropZone and Shutter's thread, everyone who has examined the evidence seems to have come to the conclusion that Cooper planned to jump as soon as possible after take off and that would be near Seattle.
Since the evidence and Cooper's actions supporting a jump near Seattle have been discussed at length both here and on DZ, there is no reason to post them here again. All you have to do is read the posts for yourself.
The jump near Seattle idea is not something that popped up last week. And we don't have to "debate" everything again for each new poster that turns up on these threads. Just read the posts.
Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
Who is everyone? Well, you could get a good idea of who everyone is if you bothered to read the posts that predate your arrival here in 2017. In fact, there was a Cooper thread on DropZone that was started some time prior to the present one which was started in 2008 if I remember correctly.
There was no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper could have known his location to within 20 or 30 miles when he jumped. He would have to have made a wild guess as to his location. And he certainly was not dressed for a jump into a mountain or wilderness area. This little problem with an overcast and several additional cloud layers below the airliner means that Cooper could not see the ground and couldn't know what flight path the airliner was taking. Then with the airliner's airspeed varying widely during the first 15 minutes or so after taking off, Cooper could not possibly have known its location along any flight path.
There is no indication whatsoever that Cooper had an assistant in the hijacking. His fate was determined solely by himself.
For additional information, read the posts both here on Shutter's site and on DropZone.
Robert, spare me the condescending comments. I've read plenty on the case. I joined in 2018, not 2017. You obviously have some time on your hands, so why don't you go back to the posts and compile a list of who thinks he wanted to jump near Seattle, and who thinks he wanted to jump near Vancouver, or somewhere else. There are about 20-30 people max who study the case now, if you want I can give you a list of names and you can let me know what they all think. Kermit, me, and Flyjack think he wanted to jump somewhere else than Seattle. That's three. Let me know what you find.
You speak in absolutes. This case does not have a lot of absolutes. It's almost 50 years old and unsolved, so no one knows for sure.
The whole flight path was what 135 miles? And you don't think he could have known where he was within 30 miles? How often do you fly these days? Try out taking off and timing a flight from city to city. I've been doing it ever since I joined here, it's not hard to do between short hops like Seattle to Portland. Up until a week ago I flew commercial at least once a month, some long trips, but mainly 2 hours or less.
Be angry at someone else. I speak using facts when I can, and theory/opinion when I can't. I use observation and deduction. If you don't like my theories, no problem.
Fcastle, You need to read my post that you quoted just above. Telling you that you need to read the previous posts on this and the DZ sites does not mean that I am angry with you. Perhaps you could also pass the word to Kermit and Flyjack about reading previous posts.
You are going to have to do your own research. I have posted extensively on this matter at least a dozen times over the last decade and I am not going to waste more time doing it again when the information is readily available online. I am not a member of the Cooper vortex and have a real life with other activities ongoing.
You need to take a good look at a map and determine the true distance between SEATAC and Portland. It is not the 135 miles that you claim. Also, you need to check in with the FAA's superb web site and download and read some of their publications related to navigation. You might find them informative.
I have done my fair share of long flights from point to point in the middle of the night with me being the only person on the aircraft. That means I must have been able to navigate successfully between those points since here I am writing this post.
There are a handful of "absolutes" in the Cooper matter. And I have previously discussed them online in case you are interested.
Robert: What is the air to air distance from SEATAC to PDX? I wrote 135 miles, because that's what I remember from my notes, but those are on a mish mash of Word and PowerPoint docs and in folders. I wish I had kept a better log like Bruce, but I never really planned to need to go back to the notes I made literally within a few days of joining this case.
I believe that if Cooper was a trained pilot or navigator, then he would have been able to judge where he was. He was likely a World War II era veteran, and if he was on a plane in the 1940s or 50s then he would have learned to figure out his location without a radio beacon, odometer, GPS, etc. That's what I believe. Opinion, whatever you want to call it. No need to debate this point. We disagree.
All you need to do is check the maps that Shutter has archived here on his site to determine the distance between SEATAC and PDX.
So Cooper could figure out his location without being able to see the ground, without knowing his ground speed (which would require him knowing the airliner's airspeed and the winds aloft), and presumably without a compass as well? Why don't you write up an article for the Institute of Navigation on how he could do that? The ION could use some levity since just about all of their recent articles involve things even more advanced than GPS systems.
Remember that Columbus discovered America and only had an astrolabe and a magnetized needle floating on a straw in a bowl of water for navigation. Admittedly, the Western Hemisphere would be hard to miss if he just kept sailing west towards the setting sun.
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EU: I'm just getting back to this. Some of these debates may end up being part of a lifeline for many of us as the days locked up start to get to us. With that said, I'll throw some of my ideas out on this. None of which prove or disprove a suspect. They are just ideas.
1) What does Cooper do if he has to abort his skyjacking attempt given he brought no clothes with him and the planned arrival was late on Thanksgiving Eve?
A part of me thinks that Cooper may have wanted to abort, and maybe even planned to, but things kept going right for him. If he did abort, I suspect it is as simple as him landing in Seattle and getting off the plane. If he was alone on a business trip and Seattle was not his final destination, then I guess he would have to fly back to Portland, or drive, or take a bus, etc. Someone might have been expecting him and been worried, who knows. So many things could have gone wrong for him, so flying to Seattle as a regular passenger had to be a real possibility for him. I'll have to think some more about this one.
2) How could Cooper be certain that the pilots would actually fly a path anywhere near Vancouver given that he did not provide any flight path guidance?
R99 is already on edge about this one. I've stated a few of my points. I think he would assume the plane would have to fly south at some point, and once he leaves the cities of Seattle and Tacoma, the next time he sees civilization should be Vancouver/Portland. Bottom line is that he could not be certain of the flight path, he could however increase his odds by stating a southern point and an altitude. If he had a death wish, then as a gambler all he had to do was turn the odds a little in his favor, like watching cards in blackjack or poker. I think he got very very lucky, but he also had some preparation.
3) How could he be certain to any degree which town or city was emanating a glow from below the clouds?
What are the options of what city it is if he sees a glow? There aren't many to choose from, especially if he's been seeing nothing but darkness for a while. The plane leaves South Seattle what does he see next?
4) There is a hell of a lot of water around the Portland/Vancouver area, how could he be certain that he didn't end up in any of it which would amount to a death sentence?
He wants to jump before the river, which is the main body of water. If someone were to take a snapshot of the general landing area, maybe a 10 mile by 10 mile or a 5 mile by 5 mile, what percent of that would be land and what percent would be water? It's around 95% land, maybe more. The odds are he would have landed on land. I guess it's also possible that he was brazen and thought he could survive landing in the water. Water seems pretty easy to get out of until you've tried to do it with a parachute on. Or maybe he knew how to get out of the water. Skilled or not, landing in the river was not a good option.
5) Why wear a suit and loafers?
Jumping in loafers meant landing in socks. Something does not fit there for me. He had to have done something with his feet (changed shoes, taped the shoes to his ankles) or maybe the loafers were not loafers. We still don't know what was in the bag. Why wear a suit and loafers? Because wearing jeans and motorcycle boots just would not have been as cool.
Just some thoughts. I could play devil's advocate and probably come up with opposite theories too, but these are what are in my mind.
Your thoughts are perfectly rational and well thought out. That said, I strongly side with the Jump-near-Seattle narrative.
Good post.
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EU: I'm just getting back to this. Some of these debates may end up being part of a lifeline for many of us as the days locked up start to get to us. With that said, I'll throw some of my ideas out on this. None of which prove or disprove a suspect. They are just ideas.
1) What does Cooper do if he has to abort his skyjacking attempt given he brought no clothes with him and the planned arrival was late on Thanksgiving Eve?
A part of me thinks that Cooper may have wanted to abort, and maybe even planned to, but things kept going right for him. If he did abort, I suspect it is as simple as him landing in Seattle and getting off the plane. If he was alone on a business trip and Seattle was not his final destination, then I guess he would have to fly back to Portland, or drive, or take a bus, etc. Someone might have been expecting him and been worried, who knows. So many things could have gone wrong for him, so flying to Seattle as a regular passenger had to be a real possibility for him. I'll have to think some more about this one.
2) How could Cooper be certain that the pilots would actually fly a path anywhere near Vancouver given that he did not provide any flight path guidance?
R99 is already on edge about this one. I've stated a few of my points. I think he would assume the plane would have to fly south at some point, and once he leaves the cities of Seattle and Tacoma, the next time he sees civilization should be Vancouver/Portland. Bottom line is that he could not be certain of the flight path, he could however increase his odds by stating a southern point and an altitude. If he had a death wish, then as a gambler all he had to do was turn the odds a little in his favor, like watching cards in blackjack or poker. I think he got very very lucky, but he also had some preparation.
3) How could he be certain to any degree which town or city was emanating a glow from below the clouds?
What are the options of what city it is if he sees a glow? There aren't many to choose from, especially if he's been seeing nothing but darkness for a while. The plane leaves South Seattle what does he see next?
4) There is a hell of a lot of water around the Portland/Vancouver area, how could he be certain that he didn't end up in any of it which would amount to a death sentence?
He wants to jump before the river, which is the main body of water. If someone were to take a snapshot of the general landing area, maybe a 10 mile by 10 mile or a 5 mile by 5 mile, what percent of that would be land and what percent would be water? It's around 95% land, maybe more. The odds are he would have landed on land. I guess it's also possible that he was brazen and thought he could survive landing in the water. Water seems pretty easy to get out of until you've tried to do it with a parachute on. Or maybe he knew how to get out of the water. Skilled or not, landing in the river was not a good option.
5) Why wear a suit and loafers?
Jumping in loafers meant landing in socks. Something does not fit there for me. He had to have done something with his feet (changed shoes, taped the shoes to his ankles) or maybe the loafers were not loafers. We still don't know what was in the bag. Why wear a suit and loafers? Because wearing jeans and motorcycle boots just would not have been as cool.
Just some thoughts. I could play devil's advocate and probably come up with opposite theories too, but these are what are in my mind.
Your thoughts are perfectly rational and well thought out. That said, I strongly side with the Jump-near-Seattle narrative.
Good post.
fcastle866 didnt say one word about jumping at or near Seattle!
There is no "Jump-near-Seattle narrative."! No such "narrative" even exists. Nobody including Carr has ever offered an actual "narrative"! Cooper said nothing about jumping near or at Seattle!
nar·ra·tive
/ˈnerədiv/
noun: narrative; plural noun: narratives
a spoken or written account of connected events; a story.
Maybe you should finally offer an actual "narrative" for something you always say you are in favor of - whatever that "narrative" consists of.
I just find it curious that people are in favor of a "narrative" that doesn't even exist! If you can quote something Cooper said or did, something factual, that implies a 'jump near Seattle narrative' that would be a start, but that does not even exist.
I just find it curious that people are in favour of something that doesn't even exist! What's the model for such a narrative?
Ed Psych Measurement and Test Developers have a statistical model for performance as a function of knoweldge/intentions ... what is your model based on, if you even have a model ?
Otherwise this is just opinion some people have .... an opinion without any real basis at all. Like a campaign slogan? "Every citizen needs a good five dollar cigar, before jumping near Seattle'. ;)
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Welcome Fcastle and many others who have a clear and open mind. We don’t need to accept other opinions as being factual ! Contrary to some posters opinions, our thoughts
and logic is just as good and perhaps better than those opinions that were made 10, 20, 30, 40 or 48 years ago. Just for the record I joined this forum around 2007 but I was in Portland in 1971. I live there since my folks moved to Portland area in 1946 from Minnesota. I fished and water skied every square mile of the Columbia river from Bonneville dam to Buoy 10 at the mouth of the Columbia river. I drove around Tina Bar in and before 1971 and I drove there just yesterday ! Guess what ? There were 18 wheelers driving around there also! I’m pretty positive Tina Bar is NOT an Island. Also I’ve asked Eric to please explain to me why any person would seriously decide to bury the entire equivalent of $ 1,200,000. Dollars on a public beach which was frequently visited by fisherman on a daily basis. I’m sorry but I fail to find it logical ! He didn’t have any answer a year ago and I’d be very interested in how he explains it today. You see some thoughts are as relevant today as they were 48 years ago ! Welcome aboard all you logical thinkers and no it’s not necessary to always rehash old posts.
Kermit, What does your clear and open mind say about Key West, Florida? Is it an island? I don't specifically remember seeing any 18 wheelers driving around there, but I do remember seeing about 100 miles worth of bridges and a heck of a lot of water in driving to Key West.
Glad you asked ! I’ve drove my Motor Home there also. The Key word is bridges and there are many of them ! They connect many Islands that we call the Florida Keys. Huge difference as Tina Bar is NOT completely surrounded on ALL sides by water! You’ve been to Tina Bar as I was just yesterday. Guess what ? I didn’t need to cross over 42 bridges to get there.BTW My son owns and drives an 18 wheeler and yes they do drive across those bridges from one Island to another.
Any other questions ?
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Welcome Fcastle and many others who have a clear and open mind. We don’t need to accept other opinions as being factual ! Contrary to some posters opinions, our thoughts
and logic is just as good and perhaps better than those opinions that were made 10, 20, 30, 40 or 48 years ago. Just for the record I joined this forum around 2007 but I was in Portland in 1971. I live there since my folks moved to Portland area in 1946 from Minnesota. I fished and water skied every square mile of the Columbia river from Bonneville dam to Buoy 10 at the mouth of the Columbia river. I drove around Tina Bar in and before 1971 and I drove there just yesterday ! Guess what ? There were 18 wheelers driving around there also! I’m pretty positive Tina Bar is NOT an Island. Also I’ve asked Eric to please explain to me why any person would seriously decide to bury the entire equivalent of $ 1,200,000. Dollars on a public beach which was frequently visited by fisherman on a daily basis. I’m sorry but I fail to find it logical ! He didn’t have any answer a year ago and I’d be very interested in how he explains it today. You see some thoughts are as relevant today as they were 48 years ago ! Welcome aboard all you logical thinkers and no it’s not necessary to always rehash old posts.
Kermit, What does your clear and open mind say about Key West, Florida? Is it an island? I don't specifically remember seeing any 18 wheelers driving around there, but I do remember seeing about 100 miles worth of bridges and a heck of a lot of water in driving to Key West.
Glad you asked ! I’ve drove my Motor Home there also. The Key word is bridges and there are many of them ! They connect many Islands that we call the Florida Keys. Huge difference as Tina Bar is NOT completely surrounded on ALL sides by water! You’ve been to Tina Bar as I was just yesterday. Guess what ? I didn’t need to cross over 42 bridges to get there.BTW My son owns and drives an 18 wheeler and yes they do drive across those bridges from one Island to another.
Any other questions ?
Good post! This idea that TBar is an "island" is just alliteration unless there is some deeper meaning behind the claim. There are actually words for large pieces of land like this 'surrounded by rivers on all sides' socalled, and the last word one uses is ISLAND! Tina Bar is not an island in the normal sense of the word, any more than a camel is a type of "vehicle"! Does Tina Bar even actually meet the description two people are claiming for some odd reason!?
Is there a word to describe a piece of land surrounded by river(s)? https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/177492/is-there-a-word-to-describe-a-piece-of-land-surrounded-by-rivers/496420
See also: noun: malapropism
the mistaken use of a word in place of another term, often with unintentionally amusing effect, as in, for example, “dance a flamingo ” (instead of flamenco ).
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Let’s get back to the basis of the fact that Cooper stated correctly that the plane indeed could take off with the stairs lowered. Did it ever enter anyone’s minds that until the stairs were lowered, everyone certainly knew Cooper hadn’t jumped yet. Therefore as soon as the stairs were lowered, it was possible that perhaps he had bailed. If I was Cooper,
I would want those stairs lowered all the way from SeaTac until plane landed in Reno. We must remember that it’s a fact that the FBI stormed the plane in Reno so in actuality they were still thinking he might. Still be on plane. That could easily be why he wanted stairs lowered from start to finish as the search area is greatly enlarged. I simply don’t see any real reason to come to the conclusion that Cooper wanted to bail right out of Seattle ! Keep in mind his caper started in Portland ! Unless he had an accomplice, it’s logical that his escape vehicle might just be somewhere in Portland, Vancouver vicinity. The real truth is that nobody knew in 1971 what his thoughts were and nobody really has any idea still in 2020.
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I'm one of the easiest guys to get along with. It appears I have to start treating some as I do my crew. I'm tired of reading "read the thread" or look it up yourself. this is a discussion board where people ask questions? if you don't want to help that member out then keep your mouth shut! you get tired of the samething, try my shoes out for size? I can lock the threads and when you PM asking a question I can say "read the thread" or look it up? you guys want to be like DopZone or should I say the National Enquirer or do you want to discuss DB Cooper? the next person testing my patients will get a months worth of vacation time to "read the thread or look it up" stop fucking with my patients!
I don't agree with some of the things Eric presents but I can bet a bottom dollar the show will be very interesting to say the least. he's done far more than most. it has nothing to do with this forum or the DZ or Quora. it's what can be done to ADVANCE the case. theories are one thing and EVIDENCE is another. we can discuss the case to death but we need to get outside the internet.
The chute controversy, we have an opportunity to examine a piece of evidence. will it solve the case, hardly but it will answer some questions. it's been an issue for over a decade. Hayden described the chute to George Harrison as a civilian luxury type while a rigger recently described it as a military surplus. Hayden's second chute (missing) was describe by him as olive drab green and Cossey stated sage green. two people with different views of color. I don't think the FBI was satisfied with what was on the packing card and opened the chute. that's how they know a Steinthal was in it.
Shutter
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A statement and a question.
1. Comment: I watched EU's video late last night and there was a point about a major piece of information coming out, and that the FBI was involved in letting a group go to the federal wildlife area. I'm hopeful that there may be some game changing information coming, and that the FBI may have had some more involvement than usual. I'd personally love to see something of Cooper's being found (briefcase parts, bomb parts), or the FBI re-opening the case, or the FBI willing to put some DNA information out. Regardless of any differences in theories, these TV shows will bring some good visibility to the case.
2. Question: I looked at my old notes and in April of 2018 I did some measurements on Google Maps using the straight line distance. I show SEATAC to Portland as 134 miles as the crow files. I assume I measured SEATAC the airport to downtown Portland. An air mileage calculator online shows SEATAC to PDX being 129 miles. Am I in the general ballpark for distance? Thanks.
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I relish the opportunity to debate the Tena Bar island issue further:
1) The money was found on Tena Bar.
2) The money was buried upon Tena Bar.
3) It did not arrive by water or via the dredge per too many individual pieces of evidence to mention here.
4) Therefore, someone buried the money on Tena Bar.
5) That "someone" was likely DB Cooper.
6) The money being buried upon Tena Bar means that it got there somehow.
7) It defies common sense that DBC would drive the money to Tena Bar and bury it.
8) Therefore, the money either arrived by air or foot.
9) There is nothing that supports the notion that DBC no-pulled at the spot where the money was found.
10) Therefore, the money was walked to Tena Bar, and per point #5, by DB Cooper.
11) DBC either landed on the land mass that Tena Bar is located upon--which is surrounded by water on all asides except for the previously referenced land bridge with a road, therefore, essentially an island.
12) Or he landed in an area off the "island."
12) If DBC landed off the island then he had to either walk up from Vancouver, thereby crossing over the land bridge--which doesn't make sense.
13) Or, he had to find a spot to cross the aforementioned 25 miles of water.
14) If he's Jesus he merely walks across the water.
15) If he's not Jesus he has to either swim across the water or use the only access point to the island called the River "S" Bridge.
This is all very important to understand. After all, whether you believe in the Western Flight Path, or the FBI Flight Path, or an Ariel Jump Zone, or a Lake Merwin splash down, what you are required to accept is the fact that the money was found buried upon Tena Bar.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the State rests.
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A statement and a question.
1. Comment: I watched EU's video late last night and there was a point about a major piece of information coming out, and that the FBI was involved in letting a group go to the federal wildlife area. I'm hopeful that there may be some game changing information coming, and that the FBI may have had some more involvement than usual. I'd personally love to see something of Cooper's being found (briefcase parts, bomb parts), or the FBI re-opening the case, or the FBI willing to put some DNA information out. Regardless of any differences in theories, these TV shows will bring some good visibility to the case.
2. Question: I looked at my old notes and in April of 2018 I did some measurements on Google Maps using the straight line distance. I show SEATAC to Portland as 134 miles as the crow files. I assume I measured SEATAC the airport to downtown Portland. An air mileage calculator online shows SEATAC to PDX being 129 miles. Am I in the general ballpark for distance? Thanks.
I just want to clarify a point made in my video and referenced in your Point 1 above.
The FBI did not give us permission to search in the restricted area, that permission was granted via a separate federal department. That said, the FBI did grant us special privileges.
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I relish the opportunity to debate the Tena Bar island issue further:
1) The money was found on Tena Bar.
2) The money was buried upon Tena Bar.
3) It did not arrive by water or via the dredge per too many individual pieces of evidence to mention here.
4) Therefore, someone buried the money on Tena Bar.
5) That "someone" was likely DB Cooper.
6) The money being buried upon Tena Bar means that it got there somehow.
7) It defies common sense that DBC would drive the money to Tena Bar and bury it.
8) Therefore, the money either arrived by air or foot.
9) There is nothing that supports the notion that DBC no-pulled at the spot where the money was found.
10) Therefore, the money was walked to Tena Bar, and per point #5, by DB Cooper.
11) DBC either landed on the land mass that Tena Bar is located upon--which is surrounded by water on all asides except for the previously referenced land bridge with a road, therefore, essentially an island.
12) Or he landed in an area off the "island."
12) If DBC landed off the island then he had to either walk up from Vancouver, thereby crossing over the land bridge--which doesn't make sense.
13) Or, he had to find a spot to cross the aforementioned 25 miles of water.
14) If he's Jesus he merely walks across the water.
15) If he's not Jesus he has to either swim across the water or use the only access point to the island called the River "S" Bridge.
This is all very important to understand. After all, whether you believe in the Western Flight Path, or the FBI Flight Path, or an Ariel Jump Zone, or a Lake Merwin splash down, what you are required to accept is the fact that the money was found buried upon Tena Bar.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the State rests.
Well # 1 is true ! The money was found at Tina Bar ! Congratulations! Your other 13 statements have no factual statements but simply your opinions of what you think happened ! Sorry but your opinions are just that... your opinions! Once again please explain why anyone would decide to bury $1,200,000 on a public beach visited on a daily basis by fisherman ! It’s a simple question and you keep avoiding to answer it ! I know it’s difficult as it’s at the core of your whole theory ! I thought you were good at debating ? Avoiding to answer a simple question is not a sign of winning a debate.
I’ll move on now as here in Cooper country, we have bigger fish to fry ! Stay safe and healthy out there everyone !
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I relish the opportunity to debate the Tena Bar island issue further:
1) The money was found on Tena Bar.
2) The money was buried upon Tena Bar.
3) It did not arrive by water or via the dredge per too many individual pieces of evidence to mention here.
4) Therefore, someone buried the money on Tena Bar.
5) That "someone" was likely DB Cooper.
6) The money being buried upon Tena Bar means that it got there somehow.
7) It defies common sense that DBC would drive the money to Tena Bar and bury it.
8) Therefore, the money either arrived by air or foot.
9) There is nothing that supports the notion that DBC no-pulled at the spot where the money was found.
10) Therefore, the money was walked to Tena Bar, and per point #5, by DB Cooper.
11) DBC either landed on the land mass that Tena Bar is located upon--which is surrounded by water on all asides except for the previously referenced land bridge with a road, therefore, essentially an island.
12) Or he landed in an area off the "island."
12) If DBC landed off the island then he had to either walk up from Vancouver, thereby crossing over the land bridge--which doesn't make sense.
13) Or, he had to find a spot to cross the aforementioned 25 miles of water.
14) If he's Jesus he merely walks across the water.
15) If he's not Jesus he has to either swim across the water or use the only access point to the island called the River "S" Bridge.
This is all very important to understand. After all, whether you believe in the Western Flight Path, or the FBI Flight Path, or an Ariel Jump Zone, or a Lake Merwin splash down, what you are required to accept is the fact that the money was found buried upon Tena Bar.
Ladies and Gentlemen, the State rests.
Well # 1 is true ! The money was found at Tina Bar ! Congratulations! Your other 13 statements have no factual statements but simply your opinions of what you think happened ! Sorry but your opinions are just that... your opinions! Once again please explain why anyone would decide to bury $1,200,000 on a public beach visited on a daily basis by fisherman ! It’s a simple question and you keep avoiding to answer it ! I know it’s difficult as it’s at the core of your whole theory ! I thought you were good at debating ? Avoiding to answer a simple question is not a sign of winning a debate.
I’ll move on now as here in Cooper country, we have bigger fish to fry ! Stay safe and healthy out there everyone !
What's up with the condescending tone?
Moreover, what's up with falsely accusing me of not answering your question? Let me direct you to my Post #2410 from yesterday.
Yet again, another ill-informed snarky challenger who just lost the debate.
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Tina Bar and the DB Cooper case now being used - ON THE GONG SHOW! SEE IT NOW! :rofl:
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I really must say, I'm not sure why it is that this case seems to bring out the worst in some people. For whatever reason, some people think they have a license to be condescending, lie, and attack people on a personal level. That's just ignorant. Moreover, neither I nor anyone else who is civilized has to tolerate such antics...and shouldn't.
I could really care less if someone disagrees with my research and theories. I'm not holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to read them or subscribe to them.
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Kermit, what do you think DB Cooper did with the money once he was on land?
Yes, burying the loot is hard to accept. But what were his options? Carry it with him? How?
Give us some creative, imaginative scenarios - please.
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I really must say, I'm not sure why it is that this case seems to bring out the worst in some people. For whatever reason, some people think they have a license to be condescending, lie, and attack people on a personal level. That's just ignorant. Moreover, neither I nor anyone else who is civilized has to tolerate such antics...and shouldn't.
I could really care less if someone disagrees with my research and theories. I'm not holding a gun to anyone's head forcing them to read them or subscribe to them.
You mean like your and Flyjack's explosive and threatening exchanges at DZ, a day back?
Starting here: https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/page/2463/
Nothing even remotely comparable has ever happened in this forum, in its entire history! You hold the record! Civility is as civility does.
For better or worse, you do have a lot of backers, because you are the only Cooper media cause going at present. You are going to have support whether people agree with your theories or not! Why not be grateful and let it go at that, and let disagreement fall off your shoulders like a gentle Spring rain!? You will get a helluva a lot further.
That's my 2-cents worth. :chr2:
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Kermit, what do you think DB Cooper did with the money once he was on land?
Yes, burying the loot is hard to accept. But what were his options? Carry it with him? How?
Give us some creative, imaginative scenarios - please.
Not Kermit, but if Cooper did make it to land alive, I'm not sure that he still had the money with him.
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Here's a question worth pondering:
What was Cooper's Plan A?
After all, it seems apparent that Cooper had to improvise quite a bit and that his original plan called for jumping near Seattle. Therefore, if he had executed his plan flawlessly, what would that have looked like? More importantly, what does that tell us about him?
Cheers!
Since very few actual facts are known, let’s debate your opinion that Cooper’s original plan called for jumping near Seattle. I find that to be an interesting theory but I don’t see it any more logical or likely than many other’s theories.
Since you like to debate, let’s hear your theory of why you think it was apparent that his original plan was to jump near Seattle !
Kermit, in the now 11 years that I have been on the Cooper thread on DropZone and Shutter's thread, everyone who has examined the evidence seems to have come to the conclusion that Cooper planned to jump as soon as possible after take off and that would be near Seattle.
Since the evidence and Cooper's actions supporting a jump near Seattle have been discussed at length both here and on DZ, there is no reason to post them here again. All you have to do is read the posts for yourself.
The jump near Seattle idea is not something that popped up last week. And we don't have to "debate" everything again for each new poster that turns up on these threads. Just read the posts.
Robert: Who is everyone? I've examined the evidence and I believe he jumped pretty much where he wanted to. I also believe that he was surprised he got as far as he did in the heist, but that he still had a general plan as to where to jump.
I acknowledge at one time I believed he likely wanted to jump as soon as possible, but with the questions still around as to if he wanted the stairs down for takeoff, and if in fact he wanted them down, was it because he wanted an early jump, or was it for a different reason?
I could argue that he wanted to jump soon after takeoff, but I could also argue that he jumped where he wanted.
The one sticky point on jumping after takeoff is "Where does he land?" Does he land in the city limits (he is south of the city, but it is still the city)? On concrete, on a busy road, near a factory, near a rail yard, on top of an apartment building? Where do you think he planned to land?
Who is everyone? Well, you could get a good idea of who everyone is if you bothered to read the posts that predate your arrival here in 2017. In fact, there was a Cooper thread on DropZone that was started some time prior to the present one which was started in 2008 if I remember correctly.
There was no way on God's Green Earth that Cooper could have known his location to within 20 or 30 miles when he jumped. He would have to have made a wild guess as to his location. And he certainly was not dressed for a jump into a mountain or wilderness area. This little problem with an overcast and several additional cloud layers below the airliner means that Cooper could not see the ground and couldn't know what flight path the airliner was taking. Then with the airliner's airspeed varying widely during the first 15 minutes or so after taking off, Cooper could not possibly have known its location along any flight path.
There is no indication whatsoever that Cooper had an assistant in the hijacking. His fate was determined solely by himself.
For additional information, read the posts both here on Shutter's site and on DropZone.
Robert, spare me the condescending comments. I've read plenty on the case. I joined in 2018, not 2017. You obviously have some time on your hands, so why don't you go back to the posts and compile a list of who thinks he wanted to jump near Seattle, and who thinks he wanted to jump near Vancouver, or somewhere else. There are about 20-30 people max who study the case now, if you want I can give you a list of names and you can let me know what they all think. Kermit, me, and Flyjack think he wanted to jump somewhere else than Seattle. That's three. Let me know what you find.
You speak in absolutes. This case does not have a lot of absolutes. It's almost 50 years old and unsolved, so no one knows for sure.
The whole flight path was what 135 miles? And you don't think he could have known where he was within 30 miles? How often do you fly these days? Try out taking off and timing a flight from city to city. I've been doing it ever since I joined here, it's not hard to do between short hops like Seattle to Portland. Up until a week ago I flew commercial at least once a month, some long trips, but mainly 2 hours or less.
Be angry at someone else. I speak using facts when I can, and theory/opinion when I can't. I use observation and deduction. If you don't like my theories, no problem.
Fcastle, You need to read my post that you quoted just above. Telling you that you need to read the previous posts on this and the DZ sites does not mean that I am angry with you. Perhaps you could also pass the word to Kermit and Flyjack about reading previous posts.
You are going to have to do your own research. I have posted extensively on this matter at least a dozen times over the last decade and I am not going to waste more time doing it again when the information is readily available online. I am not a member of the Cooper vortex and have a real life with other activities ongoing.
You need to take a good look at a map and determine the true distance between SEATAC and Portland. It is not the 135 miles that you claim. Also, you need to check in with the FAA's superb web site and download and read some of their publications related to navigation. You might find them informative.
I have done my fair share of long flights from point to point in the middle of the night with me being the only person on the aircraft. That means I must have been able to navigate successfully between those points since here I am writing this post.
There are a handful of "absolutes" in the Cooper matter. And I have previously discussed them online in case you are interested.
Robert: What is the air to air distance from SEATAC to PDX? I wrote 135 miles, because that's what I remember from my notes, but those are on a mish mash of Word and PowerPoint docs and in folders. I wish I had kept a better log like Bruce, but I never really planned to need to go back to the notes I made literally within a few days of joining this case.
I believe that if Cooper was a trained pilot or navigator, then he would have been able to judge where he was. He was likely a World War II era veteran, and if he was on a plane in the 1940s or 50s then he would have learned to figure out his location without a radio beacon, odometer, GPS, etc. That's what I believe. Opinion, whatever you want to call it. No need to debate this point. We disagree.
All you need to do is check the maps that Shutter has archived here on his site to determine the distance between SEATAC and PDX.
So Cooper could figure out his location without being able to see the ground, without knowing his ground speed (which would require him knowing the airliner's airspeed and the winds aloft), and presumably without a compass as well? Why don't you write up an article for the Institute of Navigation on how he could do that? The ION could use some levity since just about all of their recent articles involve things even more advanced than GPS systems.
Remember that Columbus discovered America and only had an astrolabe and a magnetized needle floating on a straw in a bowl of water for navigation. Admittedly, the Western Hemisphere would be hard to miss if he just kept sailing west towards the setting sun.
R99: You're correct, Columbus did basically keep sailing west and eventually hit land, although it was a big target.
R99 or anyone: Are these numbers close, or are there better ones? I'm going off memory here.
Flight 305 air speed: 175 MPH (what the plane would have flown with flaps 15, gear down, etc.)
Ground speed with no wind: 175 MPH. Same as air speed.
Distance (as the crow flies) from SEATAC to PDX: 129 miles
Winds aloft: I've heard anywhere from 0-20 MPH. Variable winds likely.
Actual ground speed: ?
Do side to side winds matter, or just against or behind the plane?
How is a pilot able to announce to the passengers the time it will take to get from one airport to another, and if those airports are closer together, does the margin of error get reduced? How do aircraft timetables work and are they generally accurate?
Given rough numbers of 175 MPH, and 129 miles, the fastest the trip could have taken with zero winds is about 45 minutes. If there were tail winds, it would decrease, head winds an increase. If the speed was higher, which is could have been given that Cooper said to "slow down" at one point, then the times change....
What would the upper and lower times be for this flight from Seattle to Portland: My back of the napkin math has it between 40 minutes with a tailwind, and 50 minutes with a head wind.
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You mean like your and Flyjack's explosive and threatening exchanges at DZ, a day back?
Starting here: https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/page/2463/
Nothing even remotely comparable has ever happened in this forum, in its entire history! You hold the record! Civility is as civility does.
For better or worse, you do have a lot of backers, because you are the only Cooper media cause going at present. You are going to have support whether people agree with your theories or not! Why not be grateful and let it go at that, and let disagreement fall off your shoulders like a gentle Spring rain!? You will get a helluva a lot further.
That's my 2-cents worth. :chr2:
This will be the last time I address this:
GEORGER, I draw the line at people calling me a "domestic abuser" as TrollJack explicitly stated. Not to mention a thief inasmuch as he accuses me of stealing his work.
When challenged by me to put his money where his mouth is on this vitriolic personal attack he suddenly backed off and asserted that I must have plead guilty to enter a domestic diversion program. Then when I said that too was false, he immediately started claiming I admitted it.
Are you really going to tell me GEORGER if I or anyone else posted on this or any other forum that you beat your wife or your girlfriend and that you stole their research that you would simply ignore it?
Anyone who knows me personally can vouch that I am eminently fair. Even with you GEORGER you may recall I sent you two of the placards when I got my hands on a few and declined your offer to reimburse me. I also emailed you a copy of my report on Sheridan Peterson gratis. Additionally, I have spent thousands of dollars on the previous two CooperCon events knowing full well I would never recover the money. Finally, I have invested thousands more investigating and researching this case for the express purpose of getting to the truth. I've put my money where my mouth is in this effort.
I do not attack anyone unless attacked. That is the way I conduct myself online and face-to-face. Now if someone starts talking shit, hell yeah I'm going to punch back. I'm not afraid of punks and thugs and trolls. Everyone knows the Internet is full of them.
Oh, BTW, TrollJack also claims that I stole his research which pointed to no numbered bank accounts in Singapore before 1971. Of course, when one relies upon newspapers without actually digging for the truth they are prone to be wrong. Indeed, some Singapore banks did offer special numbered accounts--albeit unregulated--before legislation was passed in 1970. Given that I know that TrollJack will be reading this post along with every other post on this site probably within the next 3 minutes, I'll give him a clue where to verify my claims--which I'm sure I'll be accused of stealing from him too--try the Congressional Record.
Cheers!
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For better or worse, you do have a lot of backers, because you are the only Cooper media cause going at present.
Hey, what about The Cooper Vortex?!
You know georger, I'd love to have you on show. What do you think?
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You mean like your and Flyjack's explosive and threatening exchanges at DZ, a day back?
Starting here: https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/page/2463/
Nothing even remotely comparable has ever happened in this forum, in its entire history! You hold the record! Civility is as civility does.
For better or worse, you do have a lot of backers, because you are the only Cooper media cause going at present. You are going to have support whether people agree with your theories or not! Why not be grateful and let it go at that, and let disagreement fall off your shoulders like a gentle Spring rain!? You will get a helluva a lot further.
That's my 2-cents worth. :chr2:
This will be the last time I address this:
GEORGER, I draw the line at people calling me a "domestic abuser" as TrollJack explicitly stated. Not to mention a thief inasmuch as he accuses me of stealing his work.
When challenged by me to put his money where his mouth is on this vitriolic personal attack he suddenly backed off and asserted that I must have plead guilty to enter a domestic diversion program. Then when I said that too was false, he immediately started claiming I admitted it.
Are you really going to tell me GEORGER if I or anyone else posted on this or any other forum that you beat your wife or your girlfriend and that you stole their research that you would simply ignore it?
Anyone who knows me personally can vouch that I am eminently fair. Even with you GEORGER you may recall I sent you two of the placards when I got my hands on a few and declined your offer to reimburse me. I also emailed you a copy of my report on Sheridan Peterson gratis. Additionally, I have spent thousands of dollars on the previous two CooperCon events knowing full well I would never recover the money. Finally, I have invested thousands more investigating and researching this case for the express purpose of getting to the truth. I've put my money where my mouth is in this effort.
I do not attack anyone unless attacked. That is the way I conduct myself online and face-to-face. Now if someone starts talking shit, hell yeah I'm going to punch back. I'm not afraid of punks and thugs and trolls. Everyone knows the Internet is full of them.
Oh, BTW, TrollJack also claims that I stole his research which pointed to no numbered bank accounts in Singapore before 1971. Of course, when one relies upon newspapers without actually digging for the truth they are prone to be wrong. Indeed, some Singapore banks did offer special numbered accounts--albeit unregulated--before legislation was passed in 1970. Given that I know that TrollJack will be reading this post along with every other post on this site probably within the next 3 minutes, I'll give him a clue where to verify my claims--which I'm sure I'll be accused of stealing from him too--try the Congressional Record.
Cheers!
I have no opinion about any of this.
And I am sure as hell not going to contribute to any of it! :nono:
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For better or worse, you do have a lot of backers, because you are the only Cooper media cause going at present.
Hey, what about The Cooper Vortex?!
You know georger, I'd love to have you on show. What do you think?
Did I miss something? Gotta know, since I'm the Mayor of Cooperville!
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To Parrot, Kerm, et. al.
THE MONEY:
Where is it? What are some scenarios? We've heard some speculations over the years, ranging from hobos got it as Coop walked into their encampment in Vancouver, or it got swallowed up by some mud hole that consumed Danny Boy and all his stuff, ala Mooshie Farnsworth's scenario in The Parachutist.
But the money is in one of two general areas:
1. It's where Cooper put it.
2. It's in some strange hole that defies discovery.
We know some places it isn't:
1. It's not on 305.
2. It didn't fly on the wind across Washington State.
I only agree with Eris about 50% of the time, and I generally never know which 50 I'm believin'. But I do like the notion that Cooper would have buried the money before he trekked into Civilization.
If that's where he headed. But he may have just thrown it into the back-seat of a Jeep Cherokee as he said, "Soldier, let's get the fuck out of here."
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To Parrot, Kerm, et. al.
THE MONEY:
Where is it? What are some scenarios? We've heard some speculations over the years, ranging from hobos got it as Coop walked into their encampment in Vancouver, or it got swallowed up by some mud hole that consumed Danny Boy and all his stuff, ala Mooshie Farnsworth's scenario in The Parachutist.
But the money is in one of two general areas:
1. It's where Cooper put it.
2. It's in some strange hole that defies discovery.
We know some places it isn't:
1. It's not on 305.
2. It didn't fly on the wind across Washington State.
I only agree with Eris about 50% of the time, and I generally never know which 50 I'm believin'. But I do like the notion that Cooper would have buried the money before he trekked into Civilization.
If that's where he headed. But he may have just thrown it into the back-seat of a Jeep Cherokee as he said, "Soldier, let's get the fuck out of here."
First off the Hobo encampment is on Hayden Island on the Oregon side, not Vancouver. I lived there for many years !lol
I gave serious considerations to R99 theory because it answers a lot of the questions of what happened to everything.
I voted the 50/50 option on whether Cooper lived or died in jump. I agree with 377 that IF he landed in the Columbia, it’s unlikely he survived ! It’s possible If he landed in the Columbia that pretty much everything either is burried in the sand at the bottom of the deep channel or floated downstream into the ocean.
Yes he could have survived and lived happily ever after ! I know that there were any number of ways to launder the money into spendable cash.
I feel it’s 100% certain that he didn’t perish somewhere in the wilderness in and around Ariel.
So if he died in the Columbia whether by a no pull or not, by now we most likely will ever find any more remembrance of Cooper, his loot or other things like parachute, briefcase etc. So to me if that’s what happened, this story is over !
If he survived the jump, then the possibilities are endless. As only a few of you know, I’ve been doing a few things but perhaps thats for another day! Stay safe out there as these are crazy times !
So
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Spent time talking to Dorwin and several others today - will report as time permits. Subjects covered:
Law enforcement coverage of the following:
Heisson store robbery, searches in Heisson area and related matters.
Disposition of the Heisson Store robbery.
Searches of rail lines leading south from Amboy area to Vancouver, and RR bridge at Vancouver-Portland (yes searches and investigations plural were conducted for up to a week after the hijacking!)
Searches of and communication links set up with area hobo train-hopper camps and personalities/informants in the Vancouver-Portland area
related matters ...
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To Parrot, Kerm, et. al.
THE MONEY:
Where is it? What are some scenarios? We've heard some speculations over the years, ranging from hobos got it as Coop walked into their encampment in Vancouver, or it got swallowed up by some mud hole that consumed Danny Boy and all his stuff, ala Mooshie Farnsworth's scenario in The Parachutist.
But the money is in one of two general areas:
1. It's where Cooper put it.
2. It's in some strange hole that defies discovery.
We know some places it isn't:
1. It's not on 305.
2. It didn't fly on the wind across Washington State.
I only agree with Eris about 50% of the time, and I generally never know which 50 I'm believin'. But I do like the notion that Cooper would have buried the money before he trekked into Civilization.
If that's where he headed. But he may have just thrown it into the back-seat of a Jeep Cherokee as he said, "Soldier, let's get the fuck out of here."
First off the Hobo encampment is on Hayden Island on the Oregon side, not Vancouver. I lived there for many years !lol
I gave serious considerations to R99 theory because it answers a lot of the questions of what happened to everything.
I voted the 50/50 option on whether Cooper lived or died in jump. I agree with 377 that IF he landed in the Columbia, it’s unlikely he survived ! It’s possible If he landed in the Columbia that pretty much everything either is burried in the sand at the bottom of the deep channel or floated downstream into the ocean.
Yes he could have survived and lived happily ever after ! I know that there were any number of ways to launder the money into spendable cash.
I feel it’s 100% certain that he didn’t perish somewhere in the wilderness in and around Ariel.
So if he died in the Columbia whether by a no pull or not, by now we most likely will ever find any more remembrance of Cooper, his loot or other things like parachute, briefcase etc. So to me if that’s what happened, this story is over !
If he survived the jump, then the possibilities are endless. As only a few of you know, I’ve been doing a few things but perhaps thats for another day! Stay safe out there as these are crazy times !
So
What! Kermit at least partially agreeing with me on something? I'm sure that I will wake up in a few minutes and not be able to find the above post.
If we discount the possibility of miraculous events and stick to purely natural explanations, then the following sequence of events might explain everything:
1. The airliner bypassed Portland on the west side and flew essentially straight south (with respect to the grid lines) from the vicinity of the Malay Intersection to the vicinity of the Canby Intersection.
2. With the above flight path, the airliner would have flown straight down the Columbia River for about 10 miles and been essentially over the western edge of the Columbia when it passed Tina Bar.
3. When passing the Tina Bar area, Cooper jumped, died as a no-pull, and impacted on the east shore of the Columbia River or on Caterpillar Island just south of the marina.
4. If Cooper had landed in the river itself, his body would have gone downstream before daybreak and so would have the money bag.
5. If he had landed east of the NW Lower River Road (which is built on top of a levee), he would have eventually gone downstream via Vancouver Lake and the Lake River and nothing would have ended up at Tina Bar.
6. Consequently, Cooper must have impacted on solid ground but within a few feet of the Columbia River water and remained there undiscovered until the river was flooded enough for his body to be dislodged and washed downstream.
7. During the river flooding, Cooper's body must have been moved downstream as well as "downhill" with respect to the money find location at Tina Bar. That is, he must have impacted and his body remained at an elevation higher than the money find location and upstream of it until dislodged by flooding. Cooper's body would be dragged along the bottom during this movement.
8. At the money find location, several bundles of bills were dislodged from the money bag and at least one of them was "torqued" by the moving water until all of them were covered by sand as the flooding rearranged the beach area.
9. Cooper's body and everything attached to it went on downstream and ended up at some unknown location.
10. Eventually, the Ingrams visited Tina Bar and the rest is history.
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R99 or anyone: Are these numbers close, or are there better ones? I'm going off memory here.
Flight 305 air speed: 175 MPH (what the plane would have flown with flaps 15, gear down, etc.)
Ground speed with no wind: 175 MPH. Same as air speed.
Distance (as the crow flies) from SEATAC to PDX: 129 miles
Winds aloft: I've heard anywhere from 0-20 MPH. Variable winds likely.
Actual ground speed: ?
At 10,000 feet altitude and with the aircraft configuration specified by Cooper, the goal of the flight crew was to maintain an indicated airspeed of 170 KIAS, which translated to about 194 KTAS, or 225 MPH with respect to the surrounding air mass.
The winds aloft were 30 to 35 Knots from 225 degrees True (the southwest) at 10,000 feet.
The airliner was flying in a generally southern direction and the ground speed required reducing the 194 KTAS by the headwind component. And, of course, the headwind component varied as the angle between the aircraft ground path and the winds aloft angle changed.
The distance between SEATAC and PDX (the airport) was slightly over 100 Nautical Miles.
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...I gave serious considerations to R99 theory because it answers a lot of the questions of what happened to everything....
..Yes he could have survived and lived happily ever after ! I know that there were any number of ways to launder the money into spendable cash.
Two questions:
1. What R99's theory? The Western Flight path and a no-pull crater just south of T-Bar?
2. How did DBC get to the place where he laundered the money? What does your imagination tell us? Walk it through for us, please. EG: Cooper lands, takes off his parachute, and then what.... what does he do with the money? He unstraps the large white SeaFirst bank bag and he does ------- ?????
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...I gave serious considerations to R99 theory because it answers a lot of the questions of what happened to everything....
..Yes he could have survived and lived happily ever after ! I know that there were any number of ways to launder the money into spendable cash.
Two questions:
1. What R99's theory? The Western Flight path and a no-pull crater just south of T-Bar?
See post #2445 above.
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The FBI flight path does not show (a) 305 flew a straight line btwn Canby and Malay, and (b) 305 flying 'straight down the Columbia River for about ten miles with 305 'passing Tina Bar'! The FBI flight path does not show that!
The above is only a persistent claim being peddled at every possible opportunity by some deaf guy, a survivalist, who lives near the dangerous Mexican border, who is also giving instructions on how to survive the COVID-19 virus currently threatening human life on this planet!
It is vital to get correct information vs propaganda, in both matters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_virus
The FBI flight path details are clearly visible below.
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The FBI flight path does not show (a) 305 flew a straight line btwn Canby and Malay, and (b) 305 flying 'straight down the Columbia River for about ten miles with 305 'passing Tina Bar'! The FBI flight path does not show that!
The above is only a persistent claim being peddled at every possible opportunity by some deaf guy, a survivalist, who lives near the dangerous Mexican border, who is also giving instructions on how to survive the COVID-19 virus currently threatening human life on this planet!
It is vital to get correct information vs propaganda, in both matters. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNA_virus
The FBI flight path details are clearly visible below.
This post is being reproduced here since the original poster has a habit of making wild claims, then deleting his post, and claiming that he never posted it in the first place. But some of his irresponsible claims must be corrected since they basically slander everyone in sight. Per the advice in the above post that "It is vital to get correct information vs propaganda ...", read on:
1. The so-called FBI Flight Path is nonsense. For instance, it indicates that the airliner flew 3 nautical miles in one minute and then flew 6 nautical miles in the next minute while maintaining a constant speed. That just doesn't compute. Other such problems can be cited. Further, no pilot would have flown a ground track like that even if he was drunk and had a stewardess sitting on his lap handling the controls.
2. I personally don't know a survivalist but I do know at least one survivor. That survivor keeps up to date on world events and realized that the virus in question was going to be a big-time world problem and started preparing for that back in January. That survivor does not give instructions on how to handle the virus, but the top medical people seem to be following the advice that he would have given if asked.
3. The "dangerous Mexican border"? Where is that? I doubt if it is any more dangerous than, say, the area surrounding the University of Iowa. But Iowa appears to have vastly more people who claim to be "experts" on ever subject under the sun than Mexico.
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...I gave serious considerations to R99 theory because it answers a lot of the questions of what happened to everything....
..Yes he could have survived and lived happily ever after ! I know that there were any number of ways to launder the money into spendable cash.
Two questions:
1. What R99's theory? The Western Flight path and a no-pull crater just south of T-Bar?
2. How did DBC get to the place where he laundered the money? What does your imagination tell us? Walk it through for us, please. EG: Cooper lands, takes off his parachute, and then what.... what does he do with the money? He unstraps the large white SeaFirst bank bag and he does ------- ?????
Bruce , You are a journalist so pay close attention to my words above. I said I gave “ serious considerations “ to R99 “ Theory “. It’s a theory and I did consider it ! At no time have I ever said I agreed or accepted it as factual. It is indeed a possibility and if it ever turns out to be true, it does answer a lot of questions about what happened to everything presently missing. However I see no facts or evidence to cause me to accept R99 Western Path.
On the second set of questions you ask, I have plenty of the same questions also. Right now I tend to go with a landing zone close to the Battleground area. I’m not alone and I see many different individuals with very credible credentials that also lean that way. How about you ? If we are going to speculate that he survived the jump, then I do have some very precise ideas on how he could have very easily escaped undetected. We must remember that if he did survive, nobody that I’m aware of actual saw him ever again ! Sorry don’t bore me with some of these tall tales! I’m not buying any !
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3. The "dangerous Mexican border"? Where is that? I doubt if it is any more dangerous than, say, the area surrounding the University of Iowa. But Iowa appears to have vastly more people who claim to be "experts" on ever subject under the sun than Mexico.
I concur. Ames, Iowa and UI is about the LAST place I would deem as safe. My friends from Plum Island, NY left their bio-weapons research labs there a number of years ago and relocated to Ames so that they would be far away from metro areas, yet close enough to cultural experiences to attract world-class epidemiologists and the biochemists who do that kind of work and want an occasional opera or symphony to entertain them.
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...I gave serious considerations to R99 theory because it answers a lot of the questions of what happened to everything....
..Yes he could have survived and lived happily ever after ! I know that there were any number of ways to launder the money into spendable cash.
Two questions:
1. What R99's theory? The Western Flight path and a no-pull crater just south of T-Bar?
2. How did DBC get to the place where he laundered the money? What does your imagination tell us? Walk it through for us, please. EG: Cooper lands, takes off his parachute, and then what.... what does he do with the money? He unstraps the large white SeaFirst bank bag and he does ------- ?????
Bruce , You are a journalist so pay close attention to my words above. I said I gave “ serious considerations “ to R99 “ Theory “. It’s a theory and I did consider it ! At no time have I ever said I agreed or accepted it as factual. It is indeed a possibility and if it ever turns out to be true, it does answer a lot of questions about what happened to everything presently missing. However I see no facts or evidence to cause me to accept R99 Western Path.
On the second set of questions you ask, I have plenty of the same questions also. Right now I tend to go with a landing zone close to the Battleground area. I’m not alone and I see many different individuals with very credible credentials that also lean that way. How about you ? If we are going to speculate that he survived the jump, then I do have some very precise ideas on how he could have very easily escaped undetected. We must remember that if he did survive, nobody that I’m aware of actual saw him ever again ! Sorry don’t bore me with some of these tall tales! I’m not buying any !
I accept that you are considering R99's theories as speculative. I understand that. Do you feel that I mis-interpreted you, or put words in your mouth that shouldn't be there?
Whether DBC landed around Battleground or not is another issue for another day. DBC definitely landed somewhere. What I'm asking is what you might think he would have done with the money once he was on the ground - wherever that was. Bury it? Take it with him? If so, how? Does he camouflage it somehow?
And I'm asking everyone here the same question. Eric says DBC buried it. I'm inclined to believe that Coop would have buried it to insure a safer escape until such time he could return and retrieve it - like with a car.
Unless, of course, Coop had door-to-door chauffeur service, courtesy of the USG.
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...I gave serious considerations to R99 theory because it answers a lot of the questions of what happened to everything....
..Yes he could have survived and lived happily ever after ! I know that there were any number of ways to launder the money into spendable cash.
Two questions:
1. What R99's theory? The Western Flight path and a no-pull crater just south of T-Bar?
2. How did DBC get to the place where he laundered the money? What does your imagination tell us? Walk it through for us, please. EG: Cooper lands, takes off his parachute, and then what.... what does he do with the money? He unstraps the large white SeaFirst bank bag and he does ------- ?????
Bruce , You are a journalist so pay close attention to my words above. I said I gave “ serious considerations “ to R99 “ Theory “. It’s a theory and I did consider it ! At no time have I ever said I agreed or accepted it as factual. It is indeed a possibility and if it ever turns out to be true, it does answer a lot of questions about what happened to everything presently missing. However I see no facts or evidence to cause me to accept R99 Western Path.
On the second set of questions you ask, I have plenty of the same questions also. Right now I tend to go with a landing zone close to the Battleground area. I’m not alone and I see many different individuals with very credible credentials that also lean that way. How about you ? If we are going to speculate that he survived the jump, then I do have some very precise ideas on how he could have very easily escaped undetected. We must remember that if he did survive, nobody that I’m aware of actual saw him ever again ! Sorry don’t bore me with some of these tall tales! I’m not buying any !
I accept that you are considering R99's theories as speculative. I understand that. Do you feel that I mis-interpreted you, or put words in your mouth that shouldn't be there?
Whether DBC landed around Battleground or not is another issue for another day. DBC definitely landed somewhere. What I'm asking is what you might think he would have done with the money once he was on the ground - wherever that was. Bury it? Take it with him? If so, how? Does he camouflage it somehow?
And I'm asking everyone here the same question. Eric says DBC buried it. I'm inclined to believe that Coop would have buried it to insure a safer escape until such time he could return and retrieve it - like with a car.
Unless, of course, Coop had door-to-door chauffeur service, courtesy of the USG.
What did Cooper do with the money? Let's first assume he landed with all of it. Some farmer north of Vancouver could have gotten it and laughed at everyone to his grave. The most logical thing is that he buried it or hid it in the woods close to something he could recognize as a landmark when he came back. The drawback to this is that he would have to come back, and that the money could get damaged. However, if he takes it with him, he's carrying a 20 pound bag of money. But, we don't know how he got away. If he was able to get to a car or had someone helping him, he might have carried it away. He's just pulled off a huge crime, no one is really looking for him at this point, so he could just walk out with it. $200,000 is a lot of money to just bury or leave in the woods.
Looking at everything we know now, I would have buried most of it in a shallow hole a few hundred feet off a road. I would have kept a few bundles of money, as much as would fit in some pockets and could quickly have been thrown away if a police car came by. I think 1 pound of the money was about $10,000. I'd shoot for that.
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Thanks. All reasonable perspectives.
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It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?
Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.
well, you must have different docs than I do - there is no record of Cooper asking anyone to lower the stairs from the cockpit ... to be sure the issue came up, after Cooper remarked to Tina the stairs could be lowered from the cockpit after the plane was airborne, but no record he asked the pilot to do it! Tina may have relayed his comment to the pilot and that may have started an exchange - if it did we dont have the details of that except that the pilot commented about it to Flt Ops. There is no record of the pilot telling Tina 'Tell the hijacker we dont have controls in the cockpit to lower the stairs from here . . . '
For one thing, Cooper never talked directly to the cockpit during that period of time: 18:21- 18:38. I am referring to both the GG docs, the PI Transcript, and the crew interviews.
Cite your passage where Cooper asks the Pilot to lower the stairs, NickyB. :rofl:
Here's the two passages from which all the gobblewobble and blowfarb comes from. *Note that one of these passages is between the Pilot and the Ground Control, not between Cooper and the pilot. Again, keep track of the fact everything for and from Cooper is being mediated by ... Tina Mucklow.
Thanks for shedding light on that G, I was just going off what I heard from other people. Nonetheless weather he told Tina they could or asked them to my point remains the same Cooper knew that couldn’t be done and put it out the intent to mislead.
Each to his own propaganda.
What baffles me is why a multi million dollar passenger plane like the 727 could not have its aft stairs operated from the cockpit. If you asked 100 people how the rear stairs of that plane were operated, would all 100 say it was only by a handle in the back of the plane and that it was the stewardess or a mechanic that did it? I say doubtful. Is it really far fetched to think that those stairs would be activated from the cockpit by a trained pilot versus a stewardess in the back of the plane?
The whole aft stairs deal is another red herring, just like the Tena Bar money, the lack of an accent, the negotiable currency. Anyone who walked on a 727 in the 1960's or early 1970's could have seen how those stairs were operated. The fact that Cooper did not know exactly how they worked shows to me that he did not spend a lot of time on passenger airplanes, and maybe even didn't have much money at all to buy multiple tickets to learn all the steps.
What stands out to me is that he is task oriented. He doesn't appear to be the slightest bit afraid of parachuting. He is in charge, one way or another, and constantly moving toward his goal. No deception at all! (Just like the particles on his tie).
It doesn't really make sense. the plane they used was a 727 but the stairs were removed for cargo and jumps. they had an arsenal of aircraft for jumping. why use one with the stairs attached?
Exactly couldn’t agree more shutt. That’s why I’m miffed at people who try to explain cooper not knowing how to lower aft stairs and asking they be lowered from the cockpit with having experience with a military version of the 727. There is no evidence or reason for said military version of a 727 with stairs attached to exist.
well, you must have different docs than I do - there is no record of Cooper asking anyone to lower the stairs from the cockpit ... to be sure the issue came up, after Cooper remarked to Tina the stairs could be lowered from the cockpit after the plane was airborne, but no record he asked the pilot to do it! Tina may have relayed his comment to the pilot and that may have started an exchange - if it did we dont have the details of that except that the pilot commented about it to Flt Ops. There is no record of the pilot telling Tina 'Tell the hijacker we dont have controls in the cockpit to lower the stairs from here . . . '
For one thing, Cooper never talked directly to the cockpit during that period of time: 18:21- 18:38. I am referring to both the GG docs, the PI Transcript, and the crew interviews.
Cite your passage where Cooper asks the Pilot to lower the stairs, NickyB. :rofl:
Here's the two passages from which all the gobblewobble and blowfarb comes from. *Note that one of these passages is between the Pilot and the Ground Control, not between Cooper and the pilot. Again, keep track of the fact everything for and from Cooper is being mediated by ... Tina Mucklow.
Thanks for shedding light on that G, I was just going off what I heard from other people. Nonetheless weather he told Tina they could or asked them to my point remains the same Cooper knew that couldn’t be done and put it out the intent to mislead.
Each to his own propaganda.
What baffles me is why a multi million dollar passenger plane like the 727 could not have its aft stairs operated from the cockpit. If you asked 100 people how the rear stairs of that plane were operated, would all 100 say it was only by a handle in the back of the plane and that it was the stewardess or a mechanic that did it? I say doubtful. Is it really far fetched to think that those stairs would be activated from the cockpit by a trained pilot versus a stewardess in the back of the plane?
The whole aft stairs deal is another red herring, just like the Tena Bar money, the lack of an accent, the negotiable currency. Anyone who walked on a 727 in the 1960's or early 1970's could have seen how those stairs were operated. The fact that Cooper did not know exactly how they worked shows to me that he did not spend a lot of time on passenger airplanes, and maybe even didn't have much money at all to buy multiple tickets to learn all the steps.
What stands out to me is that he is task oriented. He doesn't appear to be the slightest bit afraid of parachuting. He is in charge, one way or another, and constantly moving toward his goal. No deception at all! (Just like the particles on his tie).
Thinking more on this and after listening to the latest episode of the cooper vortex which is one of the best ones yet by the way. I encourage every cooperite to give it a listen. I’m gonna say cooper wasn’t trying to be deceptive or mislead but he was just extremely smart and didn’t want to give away any obvious tells. Just like how there was 250k set aside but he only asked for 200k why maybe because asking for 250 the exact amount they had allotted for ransom in that area would of been a huge tell. If cooper knew about this money he knew he could of got this quick and easy but if he asked for over 250k they would of had to go to other sources and that would of slowed down the opp. As cooper said he wanted to get this show on the road. So in hindsight here the 200k request was perfect, just enough under not to raise suspicions and not over what they had set aside so they wouldn’t have to go to other places to get the rest which would have taken longer... it was all just sitting there in one spot at sea first bank for him ready to rumble. There is a reason they call this the perfect crime. Cooper wasn’t a criminal committing a crime, he was an extremely smart indivisible with the expertise, skills, experience and an ax to grind. Now Let’s look at flys boy hahneman and why you can eliminate him. Like you said G cooper was task oriented and wanted things moving along because he realized the longer it went on the more of a chance something could happen (fbi would have more time to plan some funny stuff) hahneman got his ransom in 100’s but asked for 500 and 1k bills which is kind of stupid if you ask me...people didn’t have many 500 or 1k bills back then so what would make you think that banks had all these 500 and 1k bills laying around lol and it delayed his opp for 4 hours because they were scrambling to find these bills only to tell him sorry you are stuck with these hundos they don’t make these bills anymore. When cooper asked for his Knapsack and didn’t get it he didn’t slow down the show and request they brought one to him he improvised. This also points to the notion it wasn’t about the money, correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t coopers 200k the least amount asked for in any hijaking of its nature? If it was about the money and cooper needed it well why not get greedy and ask for more like the others who clearly did ala McCoy 500k. Going back about not giving tells it’s the same deal with the aft stairs, he wasn’t gonna give a tell on that either. I’m in the camp that cooper was extremely smart and meticulous, that’s why he pulled this off and we are here on this forum... not hey he knew some things and got a little lucky too. Cooper was playing 3D level chess on that thanksgiving eve. He dotted every t and crossed every I. Too find cooper you got to be operating on his same level of intellect and sophistication...look for the less obvious subtleties like language, demeanor, the drink he ordered, the cigs he smoked, the fact he was a middle aged man wearing a clip on tie, tie clip? Most likely he wasn’t a casual tie rocker to have one on this are typically donned by regular tie wearers and why mother of pearl? why did he have sunglasses the fact he took them off suggests it wasn’t purely to disguise himself or why take them off wouldn’t that defeat the purpose? These are all the type of things that will get us to Dan Cooper and that’s what we need to focus on not Tina bar or the flight path which although separate interesting mysteries in there own right will not get us to the promise land.
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It's important to look at things from 30K feet up and at a granular level. However, I believe it's wise to avoid the tendency to read too much into certain details. An example is what I call The Rule of 36:
The RULE OF 36
• There were 36 passengers on Flight 305 (DBC aside).
• The flight from PDX to SEA is normally 36 minutes.
• The jet took off from SeaTac at 7:36.
• 36 minutes later—at 8:12—DBC jumped.
• 36 years after the skyjacking, in 2007, Larry Carr released info to the public which ushered in a new era in the DBC investigation.
My point here is that sometimes a detail or a fact is simply that and nothing more.
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I asked an Air America pilot once to describe his job there, and he told me, "We dropped a lot of rice."
Interestingly, I'm finding is that at least one of the CIA's other asset companies, Intermountain Aviation, was used in creative ways to circumvent red tape and get humanitarian jobs done, even at home. It might be flying a crash victim home at no cost because the military couldn't (regulations), or dropping Christmas presents to Native Americans, also because the military couldn't (also regulations). Intermountain was used creatively by officers to get a job done that they were otherwise prevented from doing. Kind of like a slush fund, benign at least at first.
The other really interesting thing is that after years of making no headlines, this former Utah-based local aviation company relocates to Arizona and begins organizing massive amounts of skydiving activity beginning in 1961-1962 and increasing. When they are sold just months before being outed as a CIA asset, they are sold to an Oregon Helicopter company southwest of Portland that also belongs to the CIA.
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Nothing Fishy Here!
"Livingston was Director of Flight Operations for Intermountain Aviation, which used an airpark north of Tucson for several years and did contract work for the CIA."
"He flew right straight into the side of the mountain," said deputy William Bradburn, who investigated."
"A Forest Service Lookout heard the plane and said the engines sounded okay."
This happened 7/2/75, 19 days after Intermountain Aviation was publicly exposed as a CIA front.
Gotta love these Cold War-era stories. So much more interesting than politics today.
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3. The "dangerous Mexican border"? Where is that? I doubt if it is any more dangerous than, say, the area surrounding the University of Iowa. But Iowa appears to have vastly more people who claim to be "experts" on ever subject under the sun than Mexico.
I concur. Ames, Iowa and UI is about the LAST place I would deem as safe. My friends from Plum Island, NY left their bio-weapons research labs there a number of years ago and relocated to Ames so that they would be far away from metro areas, yet close enough to cultural experiences to attract world-class epidemiologists and the biochemists who do that kind of work and want an occasional opera or symphony to entertain them.
Not sure what you two are referring to, since neither of you live here! Covid has penetrated all walls. World-class epidemiologists and the biochemists yes. In fact my neighbor is one of those, has been on CNN several times, but nobody in political power listens to these people much less requests their opinions. That is one reason why the world is in the mess its in but nothing new about that either! Everyone reasons: it wont be me so I can say and do anything I want with impunity. That includes commentators here spreading their propaganda powered hatchet jobs. Its an addiction. People generally deny they are addicted! The worse the addiction the stronger the denial, and the greater the effort to deflect and point fingers at others. It's a shabby time consuming way to have to live. Nothing ever gets solved. Each day the same as the one before until you forget to pay the utility bill and now you are sitting in the dark too, with your knowledge and expertise! :o
A high price to pay for a socalled interest, in the DB Cooper Hijacking case ? :'(
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The reference I made to Ames was based on statements found in Lab 257, the story of Plum Island. The author is a fellow named Michael Carroll, who lives in Long Island.
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I've read many times that there was a body of a young woman found in the search area when they had troops stomping through the brush. Was she ID'd? Anyone have a link to that info?
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I've read many times that there was a body of a young woman found in the search area when they had troops stomping through the brush. Was she ID'd? Anyone have a link to that info?
Girl was Barbara Ann Derry, 18 years old, and she wasn't found by any troops out in the brush. She is reported to have been found by two women searching for deposit bottles. Odd, right? 400 soldiers out there and a girl collecting Coke bottles finds the corpse?
The article claims she was found in the cistern of a Grist Mill near Woodland, which can still be found on Google Maps. A few weeks earlier, another girl named Cynthia Glass, 26, was found shot to death on a logging road in Cowlitz County. Supposedly, Himmelsbach had incorrectly identified the victim found during the Cooper search, but it may simply have been confusion as to which body they were referring to, Glass, found March 29th, or Derry, found February 20th.
It has been suggested that Derry was the victim of a serial killer [https://murderpedia.org/male.F/f/forrest-warren-leslie.htm]. What are the odds that D.B. Cooper and a Serial Killer crossed paths? Whole thing is weird.
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I've read many times that there was a body of a young woman found in the search area when they had troops stomping through the brush. Was she ID'd? Anyone have a link to that info?
Girl was Barbara Ann Derry, 18 years old, and she wasn't found by any troops out in the brush. She is reported to have been found by two women searching for deposit bottles. Odd, right? 400 soldiers out there and a girl collecting Coke bottles finds the corpse?
The article claims she was found in the cistern of a Grist Mill near Woodland, which can still be found on Google Maps. A few weeks earlier, another girl named Cynthia Glass, 26, was found shot to death on a logging road in Cowlitz County. Supposedly, Himmelsbach had incorrectly identified the victim found during the Cooper search, but it may simply have been confusion as to which body they were referring to, Glass, found March 29th, or Derry, found February 20th.
It has been suggested that Derry was the victim of a serial killer [https://murderpedia.org/male.F/f/forrest-warren-leslie.htm]. What are the odds that D.B. Cooper and a Serial Killer crossed paths? Whole thing is weird.
weird.
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I've read many times that there was a body of a young woman found in the search area when they had troops stomping through the brush. Was she ID'd? Anyone have a link to that info?
OOPS. I hadn't read the above posts before I wrote the following. BTW. the location of the one body find might be Grist Mill Rd. and not an actual grist mill or its ruins.
*******
Geoffrey Gray may have it. GG read the 300-page account that Norjak Case Agent Charlie Farrell wrote but never made public. Farrell may have identified the two bodies his teams recovered in the March and April 1972 ground search in Amboy.
The Farrell family has refused to share the Norjak Papers with me. Not sure why. Charlie Farrell passed away in 2003 or so. His family still lives in the Seattle area. I was unable to contact the Farrell family directly, but went through the retired SA Bob Sale, whom I met through Bob Sailshaw several years ago.
Maybe Larry Carr can make an introduction. Or try John Detlor or Bob Fuhriman. Both agents are still alive as far as I know, interested in Norjak, and living in the Seattle area, as is Ron Nichols, who took over from Farrell. Nichols has resisted ALL contact with media and Cooperites, including Galen Cook, which shocks me.
Lastly, you might be able to check in with the Culp family in Amboy. The son of matriarch Margaret Culp was subjected to an FBI interrogation due to his photographing the federal ground search, so the family might be able to share some details. Besides, Maggie had some STRONG feelings towards the feds. Most of the protest signs against the Bonneville Power folks are gone now, but a few years back they were ubiquitous around Mag's neighborhood, if you catch my drift....
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BTW. the location of the one body find might be Grist Mill Rd. and not an actual grist mill or its ruins.
Bruce, there were two newspaper clippings attached to my post above. Take a peek. "...in a grist mill cistern east of Woodland" is pretty specific. Here is a third, where it describes the same structure within the mill not as a cistern but as a silo. Probably hard for most people in 1972 to identify outdated tech like the guts of a water mill.
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Thanks guys!
The Grist Mill is still standing today and is a museum of sorts by the way.
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The Grist Mill exists? Great. I'll have to take a look someday.
When I was poking around Amboy and asked about it, some folks didn't know what I was talking about and said that I was probably referring to Grist Mill Road. Hence, my confusion.
Speaking of confusion, one of the above posts mentions that a body (one of the two?) was found in late February, 1972? By whom? The feds and Army weren't in the woods until late March.
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The Grist Mill exists? Great. I'll have to take a look someday.
When I was poking around Amboy and asked about it, some folks didn't know what I was talking about and said that I was probably referring to Grist Mill Road. Hence, my confusion.
Speaking of confusion, one of the above posts mentions that a body (one of the two?) was found in late February, 1972? By whom? The feds and Army weren't in the woods until late March.
Found by a couple walking their dog, one day after she was abducted.
https://www.newspapers.com/clip/44839675/cynthia-ann-glass-feature-in-longview/
She'd been raped and apparently shot. I believe Barbara Derry was stabbed. She was last seen walking home from work, and was found I think weeks later in the Grist Mill, which was apparently abandoned at the time. If I recall correctly, it was some kind of off-the-grid homeless/teenager/vagabond hangout, which would make it a good spot to collect beer bottles.
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Does anyone know if the FBI looked into any suspects that were dying? What I mean is within a couple years of the hijacking.
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Does anyone know if the FBI looked into any suspects that were dying? What I mean is within a couple years of the hijacking.
Not that I can think of, Mey Doc.
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One of the letters that supposed sent by DB Cooper said that he had 14 months to live.
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Yes, I'm aware of that letter. Not sure that the FBI ever investigated the author. In fact, I don't know that the FBI ever identified any of the authors of letters signed DB Cooper, etc.
The subject of the letters and any subsequent action by the FBI is a bit of a hazy, mysterious side angle of Norjak.
I've heard some strange stuff. Galen told me that Himmelsbach told him that there were no letters!
Then we have the bizarre Al Di episode, the decoding of "Letter #3" and all of that.
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Hi all. I'm brand new to this forum, and have only spent about a month learning about Cooper, though I'm a veteran of several other rabbit holes, true crime and otherwise. As my screen name indicates, my expertise is in books. I'm an academic librarian, long-time bookseller, former English major, and independent researcher. The contention that the phrase "negotiable American currency" indicates that Cooper was not from the U.S. does not ring true to me. Not to pick on the fine folks at the Citizen Sleuths website, but their statement is a good example. They say, "Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country." I did some quick checking in Google Books and the Internet Archive, and came up with three instances of the phrase, and three more of the phrase "negotiable U.S. currency." All are from U.S. publications, four of the six are clearly American authors, and the uses range in publication date from 1963 to 2002. I list them below. I have screen shots of all, if anyone wants context. For now, I'll just attach the first one with an unidentified author.
Unknown author, Car Life Magazine, 1963, uses “negotiable American currency.”
Philbrooke Paine, born 1910, journalist from New Hampshire, author of Squarely Behind the Beavers, 1963, page 29, uses “negotiable American currency.”
John Reese, born 1910 in Nebraska, western and crime writer, “The World’s Second Oldest Profession,” Mike Shayne Mystery Magazine Annual 1972, page 57, uses “negotiable American currency.”
Veronica Geng, born 1941 in Atlanta, raised in Philadelphia, acclaimed editor and writer for publications such as the New Yorker, New York Times, Love Trouble: New and Collected Work, 1999, page 198, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
David McClintick, born 1940, raised in Kansas and Montana, Swordfish : a true story of ambition, savagery, and betrayal, 1993, page 216, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
The Currency Dealer Newsletter: October 2002, page 110, published in California, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
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Hi all. I'm brand new to this forum, and have only spent about a month learning about Cooper, though I'm a veteran of several other rabbit holes, true crime and otherwise. As my screen name indicates, my expertise is in books. I'm an academic librarian, long-time bookseller, former English major, and independent researcher. The contention that the phrase "negotiable American currency" indicates that Cooper was not from the U.S. does not ring true to me. Not to pick on the fine folks at the Citizen Sleuths website, but their statement is a good example. They say, "Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country." I did some quick checking in Google Books and the Internet Archive, and came up with three instances of the phrase, and three more of the phrase "negotiable U.S. currency." All are from U.S. publications, four of the six are clearly American authors, and the uses range in publication date from 1963 to 2002. I list them below. I have screen shots of all, if anyone wants context. For now, I'll just attach the first one with an unidentified author.
Unknown author, Car Life Magazine, 1963, uses “negotiable American currency.”
Philbrooke Paine, born 1910, journalist from New Hampshire, author of Squarely Behind the Beavers, 1963, page 29, uses “negotiable American currency.”
John Reese, born 1910 in Nebraska, western and crime writer, “The World’s Second Oldest Profession,” Mike Shayne Mystery Magazine Annual 1972, page 57, uses “negotiable American currency.”
Veronica Geng, born 1941 in Atlanta, raised in Philadelphia, acclaimed editor and writer for publications such as the New Yorker, New York Times, Love Trouble: New and Collected Work, 1999, page 198, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
David McClintick, born 1940, raised in Kansas and Montana, Swordfish : a true story of ambition, savagery, and betrayal, 1993, page 216, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
The Currency Dealer Newsletter: October 2002, page 110, published in California, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
I suddenly feel less lonely! amazing! (1) are you familiar with Gerald Fitzgerald's work building an Ideolect for the Unabomber? (2) I agree with your negotiable Am currency opinion... that was due to Carol Abrakazinkis (sp?) who was on Kaye's team at the time. As far as I know the phrase was never proven to have been uttered by Cooper. There were so many voices/interpreters between Cooper and the pilots and whoever may have coined this phrase that it is impossible to prove it came from Cooper. The only solid context for this phrase is the fact Cooper wanted to go to Mexico (a foreign country), he specified no landings anywhere in the USA etc. That sets the stage for somebody coming up with 'negotiable American currency' which Carol then attributes to Cooper. ............. I'll let it go at that.
Welcome to the forum. This could get interesting.
How about Cooper's phrase: "get the show on the road" ... ?
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Hi all. I'm brand new to this forum, and have only spent about a month learning about Cooper, though I'm a veteran of several other rabbit holes, true crime and otherwise. As my screen name indicates, my expertise is in books. I'm an academic librarian, long-time bookseller, former English major, and independent researcher. The contention that the phrase "negotiable American currency" indicates that Cooper was not from the U.S. does not ring true to me. Not to pick on the fine folks at the Citizen Sleuths website, but their statement is a good example. They say, "Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country." I did some quick checking in Google Books and the Internet Archive, and came up with three instances of the phrase, and three more of the phrase "negotiable U.S. currency." All are from U.S. publications, four of the six are clearly American authors, and the uses range in publication date from 1963 to 2002. I list them below. I have screen shots of all, if anyone wants context. For now, I'll just attach the first one with an unidentified author.
Unknown author, Car Life Magazine, 1963, uses “negotiable American currency.”
Philbrooke Paine, born 1910, journalist from New Hampshire, author of Squarely Behind the Beavers, 1963, page 29, uses “negotiable American currency.”
John Reese, born 1910 in Nebraska, western and crime writer, “The World’s Second Oldest Profession,” Mike Shayne Mystery Magazine Annual 1972, page 57, uses “negotiable American currency.”
Veronica Geng, born 1941 in Atlanta, raised in Philadelphia, acclaimed editor and writer for publications such as the New Yorker, New York Times, Love Trouble: New and Collected Work, 1999, page 198, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
David McClintick, born 1940, raised in Kansas and Montana, Swordfish : a true story of ambition, savagery, and betrayal, 1993, page 216, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
The Currency Dealer Newsletter: October 2002, page 110, published in California, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
Bookman, welcome to the site...material removed.. I do have a few questions about how you determined the above.
1. I note that your research covered the 1910 to 2002 time frame based on the dates of the publications you cited. I presume that you actually searched from 2020 to some time before 1910. Did you search all available sources on Google Books and the Internet Archive or only a selected portion of those sources? Do you have an estimate of the number of sources you searched?
2. My desk dictionary has several definitions for "negotiable" and the one that seems most applicable to this case is "passable". I am not aware of any American currency in circulation that is not "passable" in this country, so I consider this word to be redundant and unnecessary. Do you have a different explanation for the use of this word?
3. I also consider the term "American" to be unnecessary. Did Cooper have any expectation of receiving currency from any other country?
4. My desk dictionary defines "currency" in this context as "a system of money in general use in a particular country". This word also seems to be redundant and unnecessary. Do you have another explanation for Cooper's use of this word?
Assuming that Cooper actually used the "negotiable American currency" phrase, it may or may not have been on the initial note that he passed to Flo and which he retrieved, then I suspect that he was an American with recent experience outside the USA or was not an American in the first place. Using three successive redundant or unnecessary words is not something that I think a local American hijacker would do. Note that Cooper was very precise in his communications and not given to excessive verbiage.
I think a local American hijacker would have said something like: "I want $200,000." And he might also have stated the denominations of the bills. However, Cooper apparently did not state a denomination.
Your comments on the above will be appreciated.
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Hi all. I'm brand new to this forum, and have only spent about a month learning about Cooper, though I'm a veteran of several other rabbit holes, true crime and otherwise. As my screen name indicates, my expertise is in books. I'm an academic librarian, long-time bookseller, former English major, and independent researcher. The contention that the phrase "negotiable American currency" indicates that Cooper was not from the U.S. does not ring true to me. Not to pick on the fine folks at the Citizen Sleuths website, but their statement is a good example. They say, "Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country." I did some quick checking in Google Books and the Internet Archive, and came up with three instances of the phrase, and three more of the phrase "negotiable U.S. currency." All are from U.S. publications, four of the six are clearly American authors, and the uses range in publication date from 1963 to 2002. I list them below. I have screen shots of all, if anyone wants context. For now, I'll just attach the first one with an unidentified author.
Unknown author, Car Life Magazine, 1963, uses “negotiable American currency.”
Philbrooke Paine, born 1910, journalist from New Hampshire, author of Squarely Behind the Beavers, 1963, page 29, uses “negotiable American currency.”
John Reese, born 1910 in Nebraska, western and crime writer, “The World’s Second Oldest Profession,” Mike Shayne Mystery Magazine Annual 1972, page 57, uses “negotiable American currency.”
Veronica Geng, born 1941 in Atlanta, raised in Philadelphia, acclaimed editor and writer for publications such as the New Yorker, New York Times, Love Trouble: New and Collected Work, 1999, page 198, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
David McClintick, born 1940, raised in Kansas and Montana, Swordfish : a true story of ambition, savagery, and betrayal, 1993, page 216, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
The Currency Dealer Newsletter: October 2002, page 110, published in California, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
I suddenly feel less lonely! amazing! (1) are you familiar with Gerald Fitzgerald's work building an Ideolect for the Unabomber? (2) I agree with your negotiable Am currency opinion... that was due to Carol Abrakazinkis (sp?) who was on Kaye's team at the time. As far as I know the phrase was never proven to have been uttered by Cooper. There were so many voices/interpreters between Cooper and the pilots and whoever may have coined this phrase that it is impossible to prove it came from Cooper. The only solid context for this phrase is the fact Cooper wanted to go to Mexico (a foreign country), he specified no landings anywhere in the USA etc. That sets the stage for somebody coming up with 'negotiable American currency' which Carol then attributes to Cooper. ............. I'll let it go at that.
Welcome to the forum. This could get interesting.
How about Cooper's phrase: "get the show on the road" ... ?
Doesn't the phrase "negotiable American currency" appear in Flo's notes?
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The comments have been removed...enough already....
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Thank you both for the warm welcome. Georger, I wasn't familiar with Fitzgerald's work, although I certainly remember that the Unabomber manifesto was the subject of intense analysis. In fact, I had a highly plausible candidate at the time, based on the manifesto, before Kaczynski was apprehended. Needless to say, I am not an expert forensic linguist, and I was wrong. I have read Don Foster's "Author Unknown." I enjoyed it, though I think he actually has a bit of a tin ear, especially when it comes to Shakespeare, his specialty. I'm fascinated by idiolect, but have a high bar for being convinced of conclusions. Language is a slippery thing.
All that said...I understand that Cooper himself may not have said "negotiable American currency." I am too green, by far, in all things Cooper, to trace when it was attributed to him. Someone said it, though, and the question of whether it's common, or proper, American usage is an easier question. Which brings me to Robert99's questions. In brief, I searched the entire corpus of Google Books and the Internet Archive for the two phrases- "negotiable American currency" and "negotiable U.S. currency." There were not many hits, a few dozen in Google, and a lot fewer in the Internet Archive. There were many, many more hits for the phrase "negotiable currency." Too many to be useful. I skipped over the hits related to DB Cooper books. Of the remainder, I looked for quotes from a variety of types of writing- fiction, non-fiction, pre-1971 and post-1971, etc. I did enough quick research on authors to determine whether they were native speakers of English, raised in the US. My search was not exhaustive, or scientific. But in this case, I don't think it has to be.
My conclusion is that the phrases "negotiable American currency," and "negotiable U.S. currency" are not common, but are not super-rare, nor are they incorrect. A couple of the uses I found seem to be intended as mildly humorous- the writer deliberately using a "fancy" phrase, rather than saying something like "cold hard cash." Several of the uses are just literal and descriptive. The final example, from The Currency Dealer Newsletter, likely has a more technical financial meaning. The most straightforward definition I could find for negotiable instruments is the following from an online business dictionary: "Negotiable instruments are unconditional orders or promise to pay, and include checks, drafts, bearer bonds, some certificates of deposit, promissory notes, and bank notes (currency)."
IF Dan Cooper did use the phrase, it could indicate some background in banking or finance. On the other hand, he could have simply been being very precise, in the manner of an engineer or scientist. He could have meant "I don't want gold bars, Mexican pesos or untraceable bearer bonds. Nothing exotic-this isn't a movie. Just give me regular negotiable American currency."
P.S. As for the phrase "let's get this show on the road," this seems to be primarily an American saying, and very common, to the point of being a cliche, especially in the 1960s.
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Welcome, Bookman. Good to have you aboard.
What brings you to Cooper World?
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Thank you both for the warm welcome. Georger, I wasn't familiar with Fitzgerald's work, although I certainly remember that the Unabomber manifesto was the subject of intense analysis. In fact, I had a highly plausible candidate at the time, based on the manifesto, before Kaczynski was apprehended. Needless to say, I am not an expert forensic linguist, and I was wrong. I have read Don Foster's "Author Unknown." I enjoyed it, though I think he actually has a bit of a tin ear, especially when it comes to Shakespeare, his specialty. I'm fascinated by idiolect, but have a high bar for being convinced of conclusions. Language is a slippery thing.
All that said...I understand that Cooper himself may not have said "negotiable American currency." I am too green, by far, in all things Cooper, to trace when it was attributed to him. Someone said it, though, and the question of whether it's common, or proper, American usage is an easier question. Which brings me to Robert99's questions. In brief, I searched the entire corpus of Google Books and the Internet Archive for the two phrases- "negotiable American currency" and "negotiable U.S. currency." There were not many hits, a few dozen in Google, and a lot fewer in the Internet Archive. There were many, many more hits for the phrase "negotiable currency." Too many to be useful. I skipped over the hits related to DB Cooper books. Of the remainder, I looked for quotes from a variety of types of writing- fiction, non-fiction, pre-1971 and post-1971, etc. I did enough quick research on authors to determine whether they were native speakers of English, raised in the US. My search was not exhaustive, or scientific. But in this case, I don't think it has to be.
My conclusion is that the phrases "negotiable American currency," and "negotiable U.S. currency" are not common, but are not super-rare, nor are they incorrect. A couple of the uses I found seem to be intended as mildly humorous- the writer deliberately using a "fancy" phrase, rather than saying something like "cold hard cash." Several of the uses are just literal and descriptive. The final example, from The Currency Dealer Newsletter, likely has a more technical financial meaning. The most straightforward definition I could find for negotiable instruments is the following from an online business dictionary: "Negotiable instruments are unconditional orders or promise to pay, and include checks, drafts, bearer bonds, some certificates of deposit, promissory notes, and bank notes (currency)."
IF Dan Cooper did use the phrase, it could indicate some background in banking or finance. On the other hand, he could have simply been being very precise, in the manner of an engineer or scientist. He could have meant "I don't want gold bars, Mexican pesos or untraceable bearer bonds. Nothing exotic-this isn't a movie. Just give me regular negotiable American currency."
P.S. As for the phrase "let's get this show on the road," this seems to be primarily an American saying, and very common, to the point of being a cliche, especially in the 1960s.
Let's do a 'Fitzgerald' - . Did "let's get this show on the road" begin in the midwest (Chicago - in reference to the circus) in the early 20th century. I asked an etymologist and that is what he thought but we could never go any deeper? By 71 the idiom was almost everywhere. I just dont find any critical phrases or references Cooper used which would nail down an area of origin, operation, or have an occupational link. No foreign phrases that stand out in spite of Flo saying she thought Cooper was Latin ? And, there are no recordings of Cooper on the interphone or behind Tina while she was using the interphone with Cooper talking to her in the background. I would like nothing better than a voice print of DB Cooper - something concrete a lab could work on. ;)
Fitzgerald and his team had a lucky match: key phrases, spellings, and grammar in the Manifesto matched text in a Chicago newspaper editorial Fitzgerald's team had found, but the writer was untraceable. Soon after, as I recall this, Fitzgerald was contacted by Ted's brother whose wife had noticed phrases and grammar in the NYTimes Manifesto that matched writings she had edited for Ted years earlier when she was proof reading Ted's writings for lectures and editorials! Fitzgerald faxed Ted's brother the old Chicago Tribune editorial and Ted's brother reported back that his wife had identified the Chicago editorial as one of Ted's, at a time when Ted was living in Chicago. That cracked the case. And, Ted's brother knew exactly where Ted could be found living at Lincoln Montana. A massive effort to apprehend Ted was launched!
Then a reporter at a newspaper in Helena Montana surfaced, just before the FBI went to Montana to get Kaczynski! This reporter was a graduate of the Linguistics program at SUI in Iowa City. This reporter had also matched key phrases and grammar in the Manifesto with similar phrases in editorials he had received at Helena from some guy named Ted Kaczynski who was living at Lincoln, MT ... a regular user of the public library at Lincoln, a reader of the Helena newspaper, and a writer of editorials he was mailing to the Helena newspaper from the small library at Lincoln! He had met Kaczynski personally several times, when Ted would take the bus to Helena and spend the day! ................... small world!
I will be interested in anything you find of interest in the Cooper case... good luck with your work here.
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Thank you both for the warm welcome. Georger, I wasn't familiar with Fitzgerald's work, although I certainly remember that the Unabomber manifesto was the subject of intense analysis. In fact, I had a highly plausible candidate at the time, based on the manifesto, before Kaczynski was apprehended. Needless to say, I am not an expert forensic linguist, and I was wrong. I have read Don Foster's "Author Unknown." I enjoyed it, though I think he actually has a bit of a tin ear, especially when it comes to Shakespeare, his specialty. I'm fascinated by idiolect, but have a high bar for being convinced of conclusions. Language is a slippery thing.
All that said...I understand that Cooper himself may not have said "negotiable American currency." I am too green, by far, in all things Cooper, to trace when it was attributed to him. Someone said it, though, and the question of whether it's common, or proper, American usage is an easier question. Which brings me to Robert99's questions. In brief, I searched the entire corpus of Google Books and the Internet Archive for the two phrases- "negotiable American currency" and "negotiable U.S. currency." There were not many hits, a few dozen in Google, and a lot fewer in the Internet Archive. There were many, many more hits for the phrase "negotiable currency." Too many to be useful. I skipped over the hits related to DB Cooper books. Of the remainder, I looked for quotes from a variety of types of writing- fiction, non-fiction, pre-1971 and post-1971, etc. I did enough quick research on authors to determine whether they were native speakers of English, raised in the US. My search was not exhaustive, or scientific. But in this case, I don't think it has to be.
My conclusion is that the phrases "negotiable American currency," and "negotiable U.S. currency" are not common, but are not super-rare, nor are they incorrect. A couple of the uses I found seem to be intended as mildly humorous- the writer deliberately using a "fancy" phrase, rather than saying something like "cold hard cash." Several of the uses are just literal and descriptive. The final example, from The Currency Dealer Newsletter, likely has a more technical financial meaning. The most straightforward definition I could find for negotiable instruments is the following from an online business dictionary: "Negotiable instruments are unconditional orders or promise to pay, and include checks, drafts, bearer bonds, some certificates of deposit, promissory notes, and bank notes (currency)."
IF Dan Cooper did use the phrase, it could indicate some background in banking or finance. On the other hand, he could have simply been being very precise, in the manner of an engineer or scientist. He could have meant "I don't want gold bars, Mexican pesos or untraceable bearer bonds. Nothing exotic-this isn't a movie. Just give me regular negotiable American currency."
P.S. As for the phrase "let's get this show on the road," this seems to be primarily an American saying, and very common, to the point of being a cliche, especially in the 1960s.
Thank you for your reply. There is also the possibility, which I deliberately didn't mention earlier, that the "negotiable American currency" phrase was simply a throwaway type of comment. I'm sure that you have a better word for it, but Cooper may have just been tossing the phrase out as a sort of light hearted calming gesture to keep the flight attendants from freaking out.
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Thank you both for the warm welcome. Georger, I wasn't familiar with Fitzgerald's work, although I certainly remember that the Unabomber manifesto was the subject of intense analysis. In fact, I had a highly plausible candidate at the time, based on the manifesto, before Kaczynski was apprehended. Needless to say, I am not an expert forensic linguist, and I was wrong. I have read Don Foster's "Author Unknown." I enjoyed it, though I think he actually has a bit of a tin ear, especially when it comes to Shakespeare, his specialty. I'm fascinated by idiolect, but have a high bar for being convinced of conclusions. Language is a slippery thing.
All that said...I understand that Cooper himself may not have said "negotiable American currency." I am too green, by far, in all things Cooper, to trace when it was attributed to him. Someone said it, though, and the question of whether it's common, or proper, American usage is an easier question. Which brings me to Robert99's questions. In brief, I searched the entire corpus of Google Books and the Internet Archive for the two phrases- "negotiable American currency" and "negotiable U.S. currency." There were not many hits, a few dozen in Google, and a lot fewer in the Internet Archive. There were many, many more hits for the phrase "negotiable currency." Too many to be useful. I skipped over the hits related to DB Cooper books. Of the remainder, I looked for quotes from a variety of types of writing- fiction, non-fiction, pre-1971 and post-1971, etc. I did enough quick research on authors to determine whether they were native speakers of English, raised in the US. My search was not exhaustive, or scientific. But in this case, I don't think it has to be.
My conclusion is that the phrases "negotiable American currency," and "negotiable U.S. currency" are not common, but are not super-rare, nor are they incorrect. A couple of the uses I found seem to be intended as mildly humorous- the writer deliberately using a "fancy" phrase, rather than saying something like "cold hard cash." Several of the uses are just literal and descriptive. The final example, from The Currency Dealer Newsletter, likely has a more technical financial meaning. The most straightforward definition I could find for negotiable instruments is the following from an online business dictionary: "Negotiable instruments are unconditional orders or promise to pay, and include checks, drafts, bearer bonds, some certificates of deposit, promissory notes, and bank notes (currency)."
IF Dan Cooper did use the phrase, it could indicate some background in banking or finance. On the other hand, he could have simply been being very precise, in the manner of an engineer or scientist. He could have meant "I don't want gold bars, Mexican pesos or untraceable bearer bonds. Nothing exotic-this isn't a movie. Just give me regular negotiable American currency."
P.S. As for the phrase "let's get this show on the road," this seems to be primarily an American saying, and very common, to the point of being a cliche, especially in the 1960s.
Let's do a 'Fitzgerald' - . Did "let's get this show on the road" begin in the midwest (Chicago - in reference to the circus) in the early 20th century. I asked an etymologist and that is what he thought but we could never go any deeper? By 71 the idiom was almost everywhere. I just dont find any critical phrases or references Cooper used which would nail down an area of origin, operation, or have an occupational link. No foreign phrases that stand out in spite of Flo saying she thought Cooper was Latin ? And, there are no recordings of Cooper on the interphone or behind Tina while she was using the interphone with Cooper talking to her in the background. I would like nothing better than a voice print of DB Cooper - something concrete a lab could work on. ;)
Fitzgerald and his team had a lucky match: key phrases, spellings, and grammar in the Manifesto matched text in a Chicago newspaper editorial Fitzgerald's team had found, but the writer was untraceable. Soon after, as I recall this, Fitzgerald was contacted by Ted's brother whose wife had noticed phrases and grammar in the NYTimes Manifesto that matched writings she had edited for Ted years earlier when she was proof reading Ted's writings for lectures and editorials! Fitzgerald faxed Ted's brother the old Chicago Tribune editorial and Ted's brother reported back that his wife had identified the Chicago editorial as one of Ted's, at a time when Ted was living in Chicago. That cracked the case. And, Ted's brother knew exactly where Ted could be found living at Lincoln Montana. A massive effort to apprehend Ted was launched!
Then a reporter at a newspaper in Helena Montana surfaced, just before the FBI went to Montana to get Kaczynski! This reporter was a graduate of the Linguistics program at SUI in Iowa City. This reporter had also matched key phrases and grammar in the Manifesto with similar phrases in editorials he had received at Helena from some guy named Ted Kaczynski who was living at Lincoln, MT ... a regular user of the public library at Lincoln, a reader of the Helena newspaper, and a writer of editorials he was mailing to the Helena newspaper from the small library at Lincoln! He had met Kaczynski personally several times, when Ted would take the bus to Helena and spend the day! ................... small world!
I will be interested in anything you find of interest in the Cooper case... good luck with your work here.
Georger-some comments on Unabomber. It looks like you and I have a couple things in common, one is interest in the Unabomber. Note: His name was James Fitzgerald, not Gerald. Typo I'm guessing on your part.
I've listened to a number of podcasts with Fitzgerald as the guest, and the one big set of text or words he discusses that made a huge difference in catching Unabomber was the use of the phrase "eat your cake and have it too" versus "have your cake and eat it too." This use pointed to someone educated, and it matched up with a letter Kaczynszi wrote to a magazine once. Fitzgerald also noted that his manifesto looked like a research paper from the 1940's.
The point on these is that Fitzgerald basically said that it is difficult to use his approach on just a few words, and that the Unabomber's manifesto really made the difference. The same concept is discussed in relation to Zodiac. The longer the letters, the more info you have to use. Same goes for breaking the German Enigma codes or codes in general.
We just don't have enough info on what Cooper said to really make a decision either way. Don't get me wrong, his words help, but they also hurt. The "negotiable currency" is actually written in the crew notes (Marty's book has those), I believe it is from Tina though, so if Cooper wrote it, and Flo had the note until Cooper took it back, then how did Tina see it? An early belief was that Cooper was Canadian, simply because of that term "negotiable currency" and that he seemed to have no accent. So if the "negotiable currency" was not even mentioned, then would we even be having a discussion about Canada?
I was bored and did some research on Flo's family. Her father was from Massachusetts, even though she was from Arkansas, but she may have been used to a bit of a Northeast accent. Tina was from Philadelphia. One of my hypotheses is that Cooper could have had an accent, and it was just not picked up by Tina, because it seemed normal to her, or it was just not a heavy accent.
I highly recommend the Unabomber show that came out recently with Paul Bettany and Sam Worthington. It's educational and entertaining.
Bookman, good approach on "negotiable currency" in books. I did some basic searches and really could not come up with much. I'd be curious to see not where it is used in books or articles, but in TV or film or comic books. Books and articles typically use good English. I'd look for similar situations to hijackings, like bank robberies, and see how those go down. It makes me think of The Usual Suspects "Give me the keys you f***ng..."
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Bruce, my kids are fans of Expedition Unknown. We watched the episode, which led me to finding Darren's podcast. I've listened to half a dozen or so, so far, including your two long episodes (I feel like I already know you!) and the one with Mark Metzler. I've done a little reading, and have got a lot ahead of me!
I absolutely agree that a large writing sample is helpful when trying to identify someone by idiolect. Having just a handful of phrases from Cooper, reported second-hand, makes it extremely difficult. It's still worth looking at, though. One of my favorite stories told by the editor of the Dictionary of American Regional English is of a kidnapper whose ransom note demanded $10,000 be put "in a trash can on the devil's strip....a term used only in a tiny section of Ohio to refer to the strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street. As it happened, one of the suspects on the police list was a man from Akron. After being confronted with the evidence, linguistic and otherwise, the man ultimately confessed."
Robert, your speculation about Cooper possibly using the phrase as a "throwaway" highlights an important point. Tone and context are so important in language use. If Cooper said it, was he being matter-of-fact, or reassuring, or pedantic, or sarcastic? We'll probably never know.
Fcastle, your point about formal writing versus TV, movies, comics is well taken. Pop culture is just much harder to search. The closest I get in my six examples are the Car Life article and the John Reese story. The first is a hobbyist magazine for car enthusiasts, written in a breezy, casual style. The second is a pulp mystery story about gangsters and guns. I'll keep my eyes open for other uses.
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I'm not at all certain that the phrase "negotiable American currency" was actually used by DBC. Rather, it is entirely possible he used the phrase "circulated American currency." In other words, bills that are not brand new.
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I'm not at all certain that the phrase "negotiable American currency" was actually used by DBC. Rather, it is entirely possible he used the phrase "circulated American currency." In other words, bills that are not brand new.
I basically agree. FJ has overworked this issue, just as Carol did. FJ has a foreign candidate so of course he wants Cooper to have said "negotiable American currency" which Cooper didn't say! The phrase is nowhere in the pilot notes, nowhere in any crew testimony, and the words are Wm Scott's wording in a transmission he made to ground control. The phrase exists nowhere else and the words are Scott's, not Cooper's. These words are NOT in any demand list Cooper gave to anyone. Since Scott spoke these words you would have to ask him why he used this phrase! Cpt Scott may have been in authority mode talking authority-speak? ;)
This is just another empty rabbit hole created by Cooper sleuths.
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Here are the crew notes: At 2310 "wants money in negotiable currency" Whether he said it or not is questionable, as has been said here. I don't know if 2310 is GMT, I'm guessing it is.
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Hi all. I'm brand new to this forum, and have only spent about a month learning about Cooper, though I'm a veteran of several other rabbit holes, true crime and otherwise. As my screen name indicates, my expertise is in books. I'm an academic librarian, long-time bookseller, former English major, and independent researcher. The contention that the phrase "negotiable American currency" indicates that Cooper was not from the U.S. does not ring true to me. Not to pick on the fine folks at the Citizen Sleuths website, but their statement is a good example. They say, "Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country." I did some quick checking in Google Books and the Internet Archive, and came up with three instances of the phrase, and three more of the phrase "negotiable U.S. currency." All are from U.S. publications, four of the six are clearly American authors, and the uses range in publication date from 1963 to 2002. I list them below. I have screen shots of all, if anyone wants context. For now, I'll just attach the first one with an unidentified author.
Unknown author, Car Life Magazine, 1963, uses “negotiable American currency.”
Philbrooke Paine, born 1910, journalist from New Hampshire, author of Squarely Behind the Beavers, 1963, page 29, uses “negotiable American currency.”
John Reese, born 1910 in Nebraska, western and crime writer, “The World’s Second Oldest Profession,” Mike Shayne Mystery Magazine Annual 1972, page 57, uses “negotiable American currency.”
Veronica Geng, born 1941 in Atlanta, raised in Philadelphia, acclaimed editor and writer for publications such as the New Yorker, New York Times, Love Trouble: New and Collected Work, 1999, page 198, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
David McClintick, born 1940, raised in Kansas and Montana, Swordfish : a true story of ambition, savagery, and betrayal, 1993, page 216, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
The Currency Dealer Newsletter: October 2002, page 110, published in California, uses “negotiable U.S. currency.”
Welcome aboard Bookman,
I’m excited to see new eyes on an old subject. I’ve lived in Portland since 1946 and now live in Cooper country more or less. The topic of the Unabomber has been of interest to me for quite a few years. I actually visited a friend who was imprisoned in Florence. There are two prisons in Florence and my friend was in the minimum Security prison. Wow, the Maximum one where Ted is incarcerated is Scarily protected. Has anyone ever escaped from there ?
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Thank you both for the warm welcome. Georger, I wasn't familiar with Fitzgerald's work, although I certainly remember that the Unabomber manifesto was the subject of intense analysis. In fact, I had a highly plausible candidate at the time, based on the manifesto, before Kaczynski was apprehended. Needless to say, I am not an expert forensic linguist, and I was wrong. I have read Don Foster's "Author Unknown." I enjoyed it, though I think he actually has a bit of a tin ear, especially when it comes to Shakespeare, his specialty. I'm fascinated by idiolect, but have a high bar for being convinced of conclusions. Language is a slippery thing.
All that said...I understand that Cooper himself may not have said "negotiable American currency." I am too green, by far, in all things Cooper, to trace when it was attributed to him. Someone said it, though, and the question of whether it's common, or proper, American usage is an easier question. Which brings me to Robert99's questions. In brief, I searched the entire corpus of Google Books and the Internet Archive for the two phrases- "negotiable American currency" and "negotiable U.S. currency." There were not many hits, a few dozen in Google, and a lot fewer in the Internet Archive. There were many, many more hits for the phrase "negotiable currency." Too many to be useful. I skipped over the hits related to DB Cooper books. Of the remainder, I looked for quotes from a variety of types of writing- fiction, non-fiction, pre-1971 and post-1971, etc. I did enough quick research on authors to determine whether they were native speakers of English, raised in the US. My search was not exhaustive, or scientific. But in this case, I don't think it has to be.
My conclusion is that the phrases "negotiable American currency," and "negotiable U.S. currency" are not common, but are not super-rare, nor are they incorrect. A couple of the uses I found seem to be intended as mildly humorous- the writer deliberately using a "fancy" phrase, rather than saying something like "cold hard cash." Several of the uses are just literal and descriptive. The final example, from The Currency Dealer Newsletter, likely has a more technical financial meaning. The most straightforward definition I could find for negotiable instruments is the following from an online business dictionary: "Negotiable instruments are unconditional orders or promise to pay, and include checks, drafts, bearer bonds, some certificates of deposit, promissory notes, and bank notes (currency)."
IF Dan Cooper did use the phrase, it could indicate some background in banking or finance. On the other hand, he could have simply been being very precise, in the manner of an engineer or scientist. He could have meant "I don't want gold bars, Mexican pesos or untraceable bearer bonds. Nothing exotic-this isn't a movie. Just give me regular negotiable American currency."
P.S. As for the phrase "let's get this show on the road," this seems to be primarily an American saying, and very common, to the point of being a cliche, especially in the 1960s.
Let's do a 'Fitzgerald' - . Did "let's get this show on the road" begin in the midwest (Chicago - in reference to the circus) in the early 20th century. I asked an etymologist and that is what he thought but we could never go any deeper? By 71 the idiom was almost everywhere. I just dont find any critical phrases or references Cooper used which would nail down an area of origin, operation, or have an occupational link. No foreign phrases that stand out in spite of Flo saying she thought Cooper was Latin ? And, there are no recordings of Cooper on the interphone or behind Tina while she was using the interphone with Cooper talking to her in the background. I would like nothing better than a voice print of DB Cooper - something concrete a lab could work on. ;)
Fitzgerald and his team had a lucky match: key phrases, spellings, and grammar in the Manifesto matched text in a Chicago newspaper editorial Fitzgerald's team had found, but the writer was untraceable. Soon after, as I recall this, Fitzgerald was contacted by Ted's brother whose wife had noticed phrases and grammar in the NYTimes Manifesto that matched writings she had edited for Ted years earlier when she was proof reading Ted's writings for lectures and editorials! Fitzgerald faxed Ted's brother the old Chicago Tribune editorial and Ted's brother reported back that his wife had identified the Chicago editorial as one of Ted's, at a time when Ted was living in Chicago. That cracked the case. And, Ted's brother knew exactly where Ted could be found living at Lincoln Montana. A massive effort to apprehend Ted was launched!
Then a reporter at a newspaper in Helena Montana surfaced, just before the FBI went to Montana to get Kaczynski! This reporter was a graduate of the Linguistics program at SUI in Iowa City. This reporter had also matched key phrases and grammar in the Manifesto with similar phrases in editorials he had received at Helena from some guy named Ted Kaczynski who was living at Lincoln, MT ... a regular user of the public library at Lincoln, a reader of the Helena newspaper, and a writer of editorials he was mailing to the Helena newspaper from the small library at Lincoln! He had met Kaczynski personally several times, when Ted would take the bus to Helena and spend the day! ................... small world!
I will be interested in anything you find of interest in the Cooper case... good luck with your work here.
Georger-some comments on Unabomber. It looks like you and I have a couple things in common, one is interest in the Unabomber. Note: His name was James Fitzgerald, not Gerald. Typo I'm guessing on your part.
I've listened to a number of podcasts with Fitzgerald as the guest, and the one big set of text or words he discusses that made a huge difference in catching Unabomber was the use of the phrase "eat your cake and have it too" versus "have your cake and eat it too." This use pointed to someone educated, and it matched up with a letter Kaczynszi wrote to a magazine once. Fitzgerald also noted that his manifesto looked like a research paper from the 1940's.
The point on these is that Fitzgerald basically said that it is difficult to use his approach on just a few words, and that the Unabomber's manifesto really made the difference. The same concept is discussed in relation to Zodiac. The longer the letters, the more info you have to use. Same goes for breaking the German Enigma codes or codes in general.
We just don't have enough info on what Cooper said to really make a decision either way. Don't get me wrong, his words help, but they also hurt. The "negotiable currency" is actually written in the crew notes (Marty's book has those), I believe it is from Tina though, so if Cooper wrote it, and Flo had the note until Cooper took it back, then how did Tina see it? An early belief was that Cooper was Canadian, simply because of that term "negotiable currency" and that he seemed to have no accent. So if the "negotiable currency" was not even mentioned, then would we even be having a discussion about Canada?
I was bored and did some research on Flo's family. Her father was from Massachusetts, even though she was from Arkansas, but she may have been used to a bit of a Northeast accent. Tina was from Philadelphia. One of my hypotheses is that Cooper could have had an accent, and it was just not picked up by Tina, because it seemed normal to her, or it was just not a heavy accent.
I highly recommend the Unabomber show that came out recently with Paul Bettany and Sam Worthington. It's educational and entertaining.
Bookman, good approach on "negotiable currency" in books. I did some basic searches and really could not come up with much. I'd be curious to see not where it is used in books or articles, but in TV or film or comic books. Books and articles typically use good English. I'd look for similar situations to hijackings, like bank robberies, and see how those go down. It makes me think of The Usual Suspects "Give me the keys you f***ng..."
Good points Castle - thanks! Yes James not Gerald ... sorry.
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Here are the crew notes: At 2310 "wants money in negotiable currency" Whether he said it or not is questionable, as has been said here. I don't know if 2310 is GMT, I'm guessing it is.
yes ... "negotiable American currency" is Scott's words in a single transmission he made to ground control. The phrase doesnt exist anywhere else. At the time Carol came up with her idea, Carol was also researching the Cooper comic distributed in Canada. So Carol is trying to connect anything Cooper said to a foreign source - especially a Canadian. Somebody on the team, maybe Kaye himself, carried this further suggesting an area of Canada where Cooper might have come from .... all based on "negotiable American currency" ... which came from Scott. No assurance Cooper ever said this! Its tenuous at best, laughable at worst. 8)
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Here are the crew notes: At 2310 "wants money in negotiable currency" Whether he said it or not is questionable, as has been said here. I don't know if 2310 is GMT, I'm guessing it is.
2310 is GMT and that translates to 1510 PST or 3:10 PM PST. Cooper started telling Flo that the airliner was being hijacked while it was still on the ground and a minute or two before it took off. The crew notes indicate that Tina called the cockpit over the interphone at 2:59 PM and told the flight crew that they were being hijacked. At 3:02 PM, Flo was in the cockpit with the original Cooper note, which was eventually returned to him.
It is not known if the flight crew mentioned the hijacking to the Air Traffic Control people at this point, but they undoubtedly passed the information to NWA Minneapolis immediately through the ARINC system.
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Can anyone provide a source for, or has actually seen printed in some document somewhere: ""negotiable American currency" ?
Maybe FLYJACK can identify his source because he is using it daily as part of his defense rationale for his foreign hijacker.
If nobody has ever seen this phrase in some document and can provide a copy of it or a source people can see, then the only source may be: Tom Kaye on his website going clear back to 2011. Kaye's statement in 2011 is: ""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent." (what does accents have to do with Cooper supposedly saying "negotiable American currency" ::) )
Back in 2011 we asked Tom "what are the 'Cooper transcripts' ? Are you referring to the PI (ATC flight comms) Transcripts? After asking several more times Tom finally explained 'No. He was not referring to the PI flight communications Transcripts'. He was referring to the sum total of FBI documents he and Carol had been allowed to see and read privately at the Seattle office of the FBI ! Those docs are not in the public domain.
So, unless somebody can document the phrase "negotiable American currency", then apparently Tom Kaye is the only source for this phrase. Except that Tom has never produced anything to ground his and Carol's assertion. The whole discussion over the years about "negotiable American currency" been due to an unproven claim Kaye and Carol started in 2011 ... without any proof or documentation at all. ?
Here's the whole passage from Kaye's 2011 website:
""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent. Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country. If he was from another country, then his lack of accent points to French Canada as one of the few places in the world where you could hail from and not have an accent. The French Canadians without accents are the Franco-Manitobans, the Franco-Albertans, and possibly the Franco-Ontarians. They would be likely to not have an accent when speaking English. These communities live in a predominantly anglophone environment and tend to become native speakers. This also lines up with the fact that the Dan Cooper comic was only published in French, making Cooper's unusual request very interesting. (By Carol Abraczinskas Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI )"
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Can anyone provide a source for, or has actually seen printed in some document somewhere: ""negotiable American currency" ?
Maybe FLYJACK can identify his source because he is using it daily as part of his defense rationale for his foreign hijacker.
If nobody has ever seen this phrase in some document and can provide a copy of it or a source people can see, then the only source may be: Tom Kaye on his website going clear back to 2011. Kaye's statement in 2011 is: ""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent." (what does accents have to do with Cooper supposedly saying "negotiable American currency" ::) )
Back in 2011 we asked Tom "what are the 'Cooper transcripts' ? Are you referring to the PI (ATC flight comms) Transcripts? After asking several more times Tom finally explained 'No. He was not referring to the PI flight communications Transcripts'. He was referring to the sum total of FBI documents he and Carol had been allowed to see and read privately at the Seattle office of the FBI ! Those docs are not in the public domain.
So, unless somebody can document the phrase "negotiable American currency", then apparently Tom Kaye is the only source for this phrase. Except that Tom has never produced anything to ground his and Carol's assertion. The whole discussion over the years about "negotiable American currency" been due to an unproven claim Kaye and Carol started in 2011 ... without any proof or documentation at all. ?
Here's the whole passage from Kaye's 2011 website:
""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent. Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country. If he was from another country, then his lack of accent points to French Canada as one of the few places in the world where you could hail from and not have an accent. The French Canadians without accents are the Franco-Manitobans, the Franco-Albertans, and possibly the Franco-Ontarians. They would be likely to not have an accent when speaking English. These communities live in a predominantly anglophone environment and tend to become native speakers. This also lines up with the fact that the Dan Cooper comic was only published in French, making Cooper's unusual request very interesting. (By Carol Abraczinskas Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI )"
Since nobody has provided a source for "negotiable American currency" - not even FJ at DZ .... then the source of this must Tom Kaye and Carol Abraczinskas (2011) Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI.
Pending any documentation the phrase even exists in the Cooper literature, except in the minds of TK and Carol and FLYJACK, ... this phrase must be wiped from the Cooper lexicon. As an unproven invention of TK and Carol. and FLYJACK!
We need to compile a list of actual phrases attributed to Cooper or mentioned in witness testimony, and stop providing 'propeller theories' for public consumption.
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Can anyone provide a source for, or has actually seen printed in some document somewhere: ""negotiable American currency" ?
Maybe FLYJACK can identify his source because he is using it daily as part of his defense rationale for his foreign hijacker.
If nobody has ever seen this phrase in some document and can provide a copy of it or a source people can see, then the only source may be: Tom Kaye on his website going clear back to 2011. Kaye's statement in 2011 is: ""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent." (what does accents have to do with Cooper supposedly saying "negotiable American currency" ::) )
Back in 2011 we asked Tom "what are the 'Cooper transcripts' ? Are you referring to the PI (ATC flight comms) Transcripts? After asking several more times Tom finally explained 'No. He was not referring to the PI flight communications Transcripts'. He was referring to the sum total of FBI documents he and Carol had been allowed to see and read privately at the Seattle office of the FBI ! Those docs are not in the public domain.
So, unless somebody can document the phrase "negotiable American currency", then apparently Tom Kaye is the only source for this phrase. Except that Tom has never produced anything to ground his and Carol's assertion. The whole discussion over the years about "negotiable American currency" been due to an unproven claim Kaye and Carol started in 2011 ... without any proof or documentation at all. ?
Here's the whole passage from Kaye's 2011 website:
""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent. Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country. If he was from another country, then his lack of accent points to French Canada as one of the few places in the world where you could hail from and not have an accent. The French Canadians without accents are the Franco-Manitobans, the Franco-Albertans, and possibly the Franco-Ontarians. They would be likely to not have an accent when speaking English. These communities live in a predominantly anglophone environment and tend to become native speakers. This also lines up with the fact that the Dan Cooper comic was only published in French, making Cooper's unusual request very interesting. (By Carol Abraczinskas Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI )"
Since nobody has provided a source for "negotiable American currency" - not even FJ at DZ .... then the source of this must Tom Kaye and Carol Abraczinskas (2011) Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI.
Pending any documentation the phrase even exists in the Cooper literature, except in the minds of TK and Carol and FLYJACK, ... this phrase must be wiped from the Cooper lexicon. As an unproven invention of TK and Carol. and FLYJACK!
We need to compile a list of actual phrases attributed to Cooper or mentioned in witness testimony, and stop providing 'propeller theories' for public consumption.
Georger: The way this is written makes it sound like Tom and Carol made this whole thing up about "negotiable currency." There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking. I agree that we do not know for sure what Cooper said in this case, because some of it was passed from one stew to another or from a stew to the cockpit. But clearly there is documentation of this term, as I posted yesterday with pictures. Those crew notes are easily searchable online, and are available in Martin Andrade's book. You yourself responded to my post on this.
To note: I do not think Cooper was Canadian, or even foreign born, and I do not read into the "negotiable currency." as it is simply too short of a phrase to draw a reasonable conclusion from. I have never once in my life confused a non-American for an American, except Canadians, and that was only for a short time. I do however put this phrase into the same group as other early observations about Cooper that frankly I believe have led most of the public down the wrong path, and in essence protecting Cooper all these years. The FBI and the public were looking for a Canadian at times. A seasoned parachutist. A commando. A career criminal. Etc. Etc.
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Can anyone provide a source for, or has actually seen printed in some document somewhere: ""negotiable American currency" ?
Maybe FLYJACK can identify his source because he is using it daily as part of his defense rationale for his foreign hijacker.
If nobody has ever seen this phrase in some document and can provide a copy of it or a source people can see, then the only source may be: Tom Kaye on his website going clear back to 2011. Kaye's statement in 2011 is: ""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent." (what does accents have to do with Cooper supposedly saying "negotiable American currency" ::) )
Back in 2011 we asked Tom "what are the 'Cooper transcripts' ? Are you referring to the PI (ATC flight comms) Transcripts? After asking several more times Tom finally explained 'No. He was not referring to the PI flight communications Transcripts'. He was referring to the sum total of FBI documents he and Carol had been allowed to see and read privately at the Seattle office of the FBI ! Those docs are not in the public domain.
So, unless somebody can document the phrase "negotiable American currency", then apparently Tom Kaye is the only source for this phrase. Except that Tom has never produced anything to ground his and Carol's assertion. The whole discussion over the years about "negotiable American currency" been due to an unproven claim Kaye and Carol started in 2011 ... without any proof or documentation at all. ?
Here's the whole passage from Kaye's 2011 website:
""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent. Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country. If he was from another country, then his lack of accent points to French Canada as one of the few places in the world where you could hail from and not have an accent. The French Canadians without accents are the Franco-Manitobans, the Franco-Albertans, and possibly the Franco-Ontarians. They would be likely to not have an accent when speaking English. These communities live in a predominantly anglophone environment and tend to become native speakers. This also lines up with the fact that the Dan Cooper comic was only published in French, making Cooper's unusual request very interesting. (By Carol Abraczinskas Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI )"
Since nobody has provided a source for "negotiable American currency" - not even FJ at DZ .... then the source of this must Tom Kaye and Carol Abraczinskas (2011) Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI.
Pending any documentation the phrase even exists in the Cooper literature, except in the minds of TK and Carol and FLYJACK, ... this phrase must be wiped from the Cooper lexicon. As an unproven invention of TK and Carol. and FLYJACK!
We need to compile a list of actual phrases attributed to Cooper or mentioned in witness testimony, and stop providing 'propeller theories' for public consumption.
Georger: The way this is written makes it sound like Tom and Carol made this whole thing up about "negotiable currency." There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking. I agree that we do not know for sure what Cooper said in this case, because some of it was passed from one stew to another or from a stew to the cockpit. But clearly there is documentation of this term, as I posted yesterday with pictures. Those crew notes are easily searchable online, and are available in Martin Andrade's book. You yourself responded to my post on this.
To note: I do not think Cooper was Canadian, or even foreign born, and I do not read into the "negotiable currency." as it is simply too short of a phrase to draw a reasonable conclusion from. I have never once in my life confused a non-American for an American, except Canadians, and that was only for a short time. I do however put this phrase into the same group as other early observations about Cooper that frankly I believe have led most of the public down the wrong path, and in essence protecting Cooper all these years. The FBI and the public were looking for a Canadian at times. A seasoned parachutist. A commando. A career criminal. Etc. Etc.
There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking.
Could you show them to us? Where are they? In crew notes? What crew notes where? In some document somewhere? Show us "negotiable American currency" in any document.
This should be simple if it exists somewhere? I cant find it. I dont know anyone who can find it either. Maybe we are all blind?
It either exists outside of Tom Kaye website, or it doesn't! Why would TK be the only person on Earth that has seen this in some document he can;t produce?
Moreover, the source may be Carol A, not Tom Kaye! Carol was the one supposedly working on the Comic history and reviewing FBI 302's and other documents. What document does "negotiable American currency" come from? Cite it!
Im not going to take anybody's word this document exists - until they show it or cite it or something! We need AUTHENTIFICATION
This is important. This is crucial to people's arguments!
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Has there been any explanation as to why the money was delivered to Cooper wrapped in rubber bands? At that time banks organized and secured bills in “currency straps”. Why would the money given to Cooper be wrapped in rubber bands and not in standard currency straps?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_strap
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Has there been any explanation as to why the money was delivered to Cooper wrapped in rubber bands? At that time banks organized and secured bills in “currency straps”. Why would the money given to Cooper be wrapped in rubber bands and not in standard currency straps?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_strap
The money was given to Cooper in used twenty dollar bills, in different size bundles, and wrapped in rubber bands to indicate to Cooper that it had been hurriedly assembled and that the serial numbers had not been recorded.
In reality, the bills were from a specific stash of bills that had been worked up for just such things as a hijacking. The bills were from only three series years and their serial numbers had been recorded.
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Interesting! Had the bills been wrapped in paper currency straps, the straps would have dissolved in water within hours and there never would have been a find on Tena Bar.
Thanks for the info!
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Has there been any explanation as to why the money was delivered to Cooper wrapped in rubber bands? At that time banks organized and secured bills in “currency straps”. Why would the money given to Cooper be wrapped in rubber bands and not in standard currency straps?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency_strap
Yes. Carr and I both talked to the SeaFirst worker who grouped the bills into bundles and wrapped each 'bundle' with one or more rubber bands, personally, for delivery to the FBI and SEATAC. There is a long-long thread about this. I forget the year Carr and I found the bank worker and talked to him, but the issue of paper straps came up suddenly short of my Sci Team receiving bills from Brian Ingram and doing a second analysis of the money. I talked to Brian about this and Brian referred me to his mother and she and I talked. Brian talked to his mother also. I think Carr called Brian's mother and talked to her also! The issue was fully vetted.
FLYJACK rejects all of this, calls Carr stupid, a liar, confused, wrong etc .... and me a moron clown. FJ started by claiming all 'packets' of bills originally had paper straps around them. FJ claimed all uses of the word 'packet' in all 302's or crew testimony was intentional technical terminology, because 'packet' is an official bank term and all people speaking about the money were aware of that term and using it! FJ then changed his theory to account for 'rubber bands'! Today FJ's theory insists the bills were pulled off the line, grouped into small groups wrapped in rubber bands, then grouped further into "PACKETS" wrapped with paper 'bank type bands'. He says all of the paper straps dissolved due to water at Tina Bar which explains why the Ingrams never saw any paper straps! FJ has avoided the issue of bank labels on the paper straps...
There is a long thread on this issue which started at DZ years ago and continued here through multiple long posts. I hate having to go back and repeat it all.
Later, a Seafirst Security guy surfaced and explained that all 'labeled paper bank straps' were always removed from all ransom money as a security precaution, so no package of ransom money could be linked to any particular bank! By the time the Seafirst employee was bundling bills into groups to go to the FBI for Cooper, no paper straps were involved, and the only way to hold groups of money together was using rubber bands! Which is exactly what the Seafirst employee to Ckret and me he did!
FJ rejects all of this. He bases his theory on the occurrence of anyone using of the word "packet" in any FBI 302 or any other document, irrespective of the fact the same people also refer to the money using words like: bundle, bundles, packages, parcels, groups, et cetera.
FJ insists that "packet" is an official banking term which everyone involved in the Cooper hijacking was aware of, and used!
Having talked to Larry, Brian, Brian's mother, and the bank guy who wrapped the bundles with rubber bands only ... FJ's theory is utter nonsense. It's crazy.
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Interesting! Had the bills been wrapped in paper currency straps, the straps would have dissolved in water within hours and there never would have been a find on Tena Bar.
Thanks for the info!
No experiment has ever been conducted to prove that. Decades old paper documents, newspapers, etc have been found on the shorelines, buried under sand, and at wing dams 20+ feet deep in the Columbia ... fact.
The issue of rubber bands vs paper straps was fully vetted when it came up suddenly years ago.
NOBODY not even FJ can deny, or tries to deny... rubber bands on the bills. Fragments of those bands were found on the groups of money the Ingrams turned in ... but no FBI lab work was done on these frags so far as we know.
FJ originally claimed paper straps and no rubber bands then he was forced to reluctantly include rubber bands because of the weight of people's testimony.
* This fake issue of rubber straps vs paper bands created by FLYJACK is so tedious and phony .......... it is beyond words! This issue was fully vetted by at least five people when it suddenly came up after decades of records on the case.
When this issue came up suddenly years ago the Ingrams felt their credibility was being impeached and they took this personally! To this day I dont know who brought the issue up with Larry. All I know is there was a sudden concern about paper straps vs rubber bands ... and people scrambled to recreate everything with new testimony from people who were personally involved in the packaging of the money.
Now years later FK brings it up all over again! :nono:
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Interesting! Had the bills been wrapped in paper currency straps, the straps would have dissolved in water within hours and there never would have been a find on Tena Bar.
Thanks for the info!
That theory water dissolves SeaFirst paper bank straps is being tested as we sit here .... on the Columbia. vote the smileycode and safe
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Has there been any investigation into whether the rubber bands found on the Tena Bar money were the original ones from the night of the skyjacking?
It might be impossible to check at this point, but it would be quite telling if the money on Tena Bar was wrapped in different rubber bands.
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Can anyone provide a source for, or has actually seen printed in some document somewhere: ""negotiable American currency" ?
Maybe FLYJACK can identify his source because he is using it daily as part of his defense rationale for his foreign hijacker.
If nobody has ever seen this phrase in some document and can provide a copy of it or a source people can see, then the only source may be: Tom Kaye on his website going clear back to 2011. Kaye's statement in 2011 is: ""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent." (what does accents have to do with Cooper supposedly saying "negotiable American currency" ::) )
Back in 2011 we asked Tom "what are the 'Cooper transcripts' ? Are you referring to the PI (ATC flight comms) Transcripts? After asking several more times Tom finally explained 'No. He was not referring to the PI flight communications Transcripts'. He was referring to the sum total of FBI documents he and Carol had been allowed to see and read privately at the Seattle office of the FBI ! Those docs are not in the public domain.
So, unless somebody can document the phrase "negotiable American currency", then apparently Tom Kaye is the only source for this phrase. Except that Tom has never produced anything to ground his and Carol's assertion. The whole discussion over the years about "negotiable American currency" been due to an unproven claim Kaye and Carol started in 2011 ... without any proof or documentation at all. ?
Here's the whole passage from Kaye's 2011 website:
""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent. Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country. If he was from another country, then his lack of accent points to French Canada as one of the few places in the world where you could hail from and not have an accent. The French Canadians without accents are the Franco-Manitobans, the Franco-Albertans, and possibly the Franco-Ontarians. They would be likely to not have an accent when speaking English. These communities live in a predominantly anglophone environment and tend to become native speakers. This also lines up with the fact that the Dan Cooper comic was only published in French, making Cooper's unusual request very interesting. (By Carol Abraczinskas Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI )"
Since nobody has provided a source for "negotiable American currency" - not even FJ at DZ .... then the source of this must Tom Kaye and Carol Abraczinskas (2011) Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI.
Pending any documentation the phrase even exists in the Cooper literature, except in the minds of TK and Carol and FLYJACK, ... this phrase must be wiped from the Cooper lexicon. As an unproven invention of TK and Carol. and FLYJACK!
We need to compile a list of actual phrases attributed to Cooper or mentioned in witness testimony, and stop providing 'propeller theories' for public consumption.
Georger: The way this is written makes it sound like Tom and Carol made this whole thing up about "negotiable currency." There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking. I agree that we do not know for sure what Cooper said in this case, because some of it was passed from one stew to another or from a stew to the cockpit. But clearly there is documentation of this term, as I posted yesterday with pictures. Those crew notes are easily searchable online, and are available in Martin Andrade's book. You yourself responded to my post on this.
To note: I do not think Cooper was Canadian, or even foreign born, and I do not read into the "negotiable currency." as it is simply too short of a phrase to draw a reasonable conclusion from. I have never once in my life confused a non-American for an American, except Canadians, and that was only for a short time. I do however put this phrase into the same group as other early observations about Cooper that frankly I believe have led most of the public down the wrong path, and in essence protecting Cooper all these years. The FBI and the public were looking for a Canadian at times. A seasoned parachutist. A commando. A career criminal. Etc. Etc.
There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking.
Could you show them to us? Where are they? In crew notes? What crew notes where? In some document somewhere? Show us "negotiable American currency" in any document.
This should be simple if it exists somewhere? I cant find it. I dont know anyone who can find it either. Maybe we are all blind?
It either exists outside of Tom Kaye website, or it doesn't! Why would TK be the only person on Earth that has seen this in some document he can;t produce?
Moreover, the source may be Carol A, not Tom Kaye! Carol was the one supposedly working on the Comic history and reviewing FBI 302's and other documents. What document does "negotiable American currency" come from? Cite it!
Im not going to take anybody's word this document exists - until they show it or cite it or something! We need AUTHENTIFICATION
This is important. This is crucial to people's arguments!
Georger: What more do you need to see? Open the attachment.
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Has there been any investigation into whether the rubber bands found on the Tena Bar money were the original ones from the night of the skyjacking?
It might be impossible to check at this point, but it would be quite telling if the money on Tena Bar was wrapped in different rubber bands.
Yes. The FBI considered both. The order of the bills was unchanged from when recorded and packaged, and the band fragments are consistent with Melt Transition Phase chemistry those bank bands went through over time.
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Can anyone provide a source for, or has actually seen printed in some document somewhere: ""negotiable American currency" ?
Maybe FLYJACK can identify his source because he is using it daily as part of his defense rationale for his foreign hijacker.
If nobody has ever seen this phrase in some document and can provide a copy of it or a source people can see, then the only source may be: Tom Kaye on his website going clear back to 2011. Kaye's statement in 2011 is: ""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent." (what does accents have to do with Cooper supposedly saying "negotiable American currency" ::) )
Back in 2011 we asked Tom "what are the 'Cooper transcripts' ? Are you referring to the PI (ATC flight comms) Transcripts? After asking several more times Tom finally explained 'No. He was not referring to the PI flight communications Transcripts'. He was referring to the sum total of FBI documents he and Carol had been allowed to see and read privately at the Seattle office of the FBI ! Those docs are not in the public domain.
So, unless somebody can document the phrase "negotiable American currency", then apparently Tom Kaye is the only source for this phrase. Except that Tom has never produced anything to ground his and Carol's assertion. The whole discussion over the years about "negotiable American currency" been due to an unproven claim Kaye and Carol started in 2011 ... without any proof or documentation at all. ?
Here's the whole passage from Kaye's 2011 website:
""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent. Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country. If he was from another country, then his lack of accent points to French Canada as one of the few places in the world where you could hail from and not have an accent. The French Canadians without accents are the Franco-Manitobans, the Franco-Albertans, and possibly the Franco-Ontarians. They would be likely to not have an accent when speaking English. These communities live in a predominantly anglophone environment and tend to become native speakers. This also lines up with the fact that the Dan Cooper comic was only published in French, making Cooper's unusual request very interesting. (By Carol Abraczinskas Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI )"
Since nobody has provided a source for "negotiable American currency" - not even FJ at DZ .... then the source of this must Tom Kaye and Carol Abraczinskas (2011) Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI.
Pending any documentation the phrase even exists in the Cooper literature, except in the minds of TK and Carol and FLYJACK, ... this phrase must be wiped from the Cooper lexicon. As an unproven invention of TK and Carol. and FLYJACK!
We need to compile a list of actual phrases attributed to Cooper or mentioned in witness testimony, and stop providing 'propeller theories' for public consumption.
Georger: The way this is written makes it sound like Tom and Carol made this whole thing up about "negotiable currency." There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking. I agree that we do not know for sure what Cooper said in this case, because some of it was passed from one stew to another or from a stew to the cockpit. But clearly there is documentation of this term, as I posted yesterday with pictures. Those crew notes are easily searchable online, and are available in Martin Andrade's book. You yourself responded to my post on this.
To note: I do not think Cooper was Canadian, or even foreign born, and I do not read into the "negotiable currency." as it is simply too short of a phrase to draw a reasonable conclusion from. I have never once in my life confused a non-American for an American, except Canadians, and that was only for a short time. I do however put this phrase into the same group as other early observations about Cooper that frankly I believe have led most of the public down the wrong path, and in essence protecting Cooper all these years. The FBI and the public were looking for a Canadian at times. A seasoned parachutist. A commando. A career criminal. Etc. Etc.
There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking.
Could you show them to us? Where are they? In crew notes? What crew notes where? In some document somewhere? Show us "negotiable American currency" in any document.
This should be simple if it exists somewhere? I cant find it. I dont know anyone who can find it either. Maybe we are all blind?
It either exists outside of Tom Kaye website, or it doesn't! Why would TK be the only person on Earth that has seen this in some document he can;t produce?
Moreover, the source may be Carol A, not Tom Kaye! Carol was the one supposedly working on the Comic history and reviewing FBI 302's and other documents. What document does "negotiable American currency" come from? Cite it!
Im not going to take anybody's word this document exists - until they show it or cite it or something! We need AUTHENTIFICATION
This is important. This is crucial to people's arguments!
Georger: What more do you need to see? Open the attachment.
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Can anyone provide a source for, or has actually seen printed in some document somewhere: ""negotiable American currency" ?
Maybe FLYJACK can identify his source because he is using it daily as part of his defense rationale for his foreign hijacker.
If nobody has ever seen this phrase in some document and can provide a copy of it or a source people can see, then the only source may be: Tom Kaye on his website going clear back to 2011. Kaye's statement in 2011 is: ""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent." (what does accents have to do with Cooper supposedly saying "negotiable American currency" ::) )
Back in 2011 we asked Tom "what are the 'Cooper transcripts' ? Are you referring to the PI (ATC flight comms) Transcripts? After asking several more times Tom finally explained 'No. He was not referring to the PI flight communications Transcripts'. He was referring to the sum total of FBI documents he and Carol had been allowed to see and read privately at the Seattle office of the FBI ! Those docs are not in the public domain.
So, unless somebody can document the phrase "negotiable American currency", then apparently Tom Kaye is the only source for this phrase. Except that Tom has never produced anything to ground his and Carol's assertion. The whole discussion over the years about "negotiable American currency" been due to an unproven claim Kaye and Carol started in 2011 ... without any proof or documentation at all. ?
Here's the whole passage from Kaye's 2011 website:
""Cooper requested "negotiable American currency". This was the most notable line to come out of the Cooper transcripts where passengers on the plane, including the flight attendants, stated that Cooper had no distinguishable accent. Since no American citizen would use those terms, it suggests that Cooper was not originally from this country. If he was from another country, then his lack of accent points to French Canada as one of the few places in the world where you could hail from and not have an accent. The French Canadians without accents are the Franco-Manitobans, the Franco-Albertans, and possibly the Franco-Ontarians. They would be likely to not have an accent when speaking English. These communities live in a predominantly anglophone environment and tend to become native speakers. This also lines up with the fact that the Dan Cooper comic was only published in French, making Cooper's unusual request very interesting. (By Carol Abraczinskas Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI )"
Since nobody has provided a source for "negotiable American currency" - not even FJ at DZ .... then the source of this must Tom Kaye and Carol Abraczinskas (2011) Scientific/Biological Illustrator, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI.
Pending any documentation the phrase even exists in the Cooper literature, except in the minds of TK and Carol and FLYJACK, ... this phrase must be wiped from the Cooper lexicon. As an unproven invention of TK and Carol. and FLYJACK!
We need to compile a list of actual phrases attributed to Cooper or mentioned in witness testimony, and stop providing 'propeller theories' for public consumption.
Georger: The way this is written makes it sound like Tom and Carol made this whole thing up about "negotiable currency." There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking. I agree that we do not know for sure what Cooper said in this case, because some of it was passed from one stew to another or from a stew to the cockpit. But clearly there is documentation of this term, as I posted yesterday with pictures. Those crew notes are easily searchable online, and are available in Martin Andrade's book. You yourself responded to my post on this.
To note: I do not think Cooper was Canadian, or even foreign born, and I do not read into the "negotiable currency." as it is simply too short of a phrase to draw a reasonable conclusion from. I have never once in my life confused a non-American for an American, except Canadians, and that was only for a short time. I do however put this phrase into the same group as other early observations about Cooper that frankly I believe have led most of the public down the wrong path, and in essence protecting Cooper all these years. The FBI and the public were looking for a Canadian at times. A seasoned parachutist. A commando. A career criminal. Etc. Etc.
There are written crew notes, not 302's that use that exact terminology. Those are from the actual night of the hijacking.
Could you show them to us? Where are they? In crew notes? What crew notes where? In some document somewhere? Show us "negotiable American currency" in any document.
This should be simple if it exists somewhere? I cant find it. I dont know anyone who can find it either. Maybe we are all blind?
It either exists outside of Tom Kaye website, or it doesn't! Why would TK be the only person on Earth that has seen this in some document he can;t produce?
Moreover, the source may be Carol A, not Tom Kaye! Carol was the one supposedly working on the Comic history and reviewing FBI 302's and other documents. What document does "negotiable American currency" come from? Cite it!
Im not going to take anybody's word this document exists - until they show it or cite it or something! We need AUTHENTIFICATION
This is important. This is crucial to people's arguments!
Georger: What more do you need to see? Open the attachment.
I posted that last night. The phrase at stake is: "negotiable American currency" not "negotiable currency" .
Later ... there is no way out of this! I guess I will compile a loist of lal the different phrases diff people have used, in every doc Ican find. Give me a week! :rofl:
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What we're looking at are notes written by Flo as she sat in the cockpit and received word from Tina, via the interphone, who was relaying Cooper's demands.
All of that said, it was also reported that Cooper wanted "circulated" currency.
Therefore, I think it is reasonable to deduce that what Cooper actually requested was circulated currency, or at least currency that was used and not new. Meaning that the word "negotiable" is probably not Cooper's word.
Regardless, I've never had an issue with the term "negotiable currency." I'm quite certain that I've used a phrase very similar at various points in my life. I think it is a leap to suggest that this points to a Canadian. After all, a Canadian is also not likely to use the phrase "negotiable currency."
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May I ask another question about a seemingly well-known fact, that is, Cooper wearing "loafers?" I know that it has been discussed here before, but only in passing. I just read a number of interviews with the crew in the "Vault' area of the website. All those describing Cooper's clothing described his dark "shoes," without specifying the kind, except for Tina Mucklow. In the section labeled: Interview of Mucklow 12/1-2 at her home in PA: she is quoted as follows. Clothing: Dark brown suit possibly with thin black stripes, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not type shoes (loafers).
The wording is confusing to me. I suppose it could have been mis-transcribed, as the document i was reading was not an original (Word document, rather than a scan of a typewritten document). However, that could be read as meaning "ankle length shoes, but specifically not loafer type shoes." In other words, possibly even low cut boots. Not that it makes an enormous difference- Mark Metzler has said that he once jumped in loafers, with no big problems. It is part of the mythology, though. Are there other sources that describe Cooper wearing loafers?
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Did y'all miss this one?
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Did y'all miss this one?
Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -
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Did y'all miss this one?
Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -
This is what Flyjack posted yesterday at DZ when you said he hadn't.
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Did y'all miss this one?
Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -
This is what Flyjack posted yesterday at DZ when you said he hadn't.
stop playing games - what is it and where is it from ? The PI Transcript?
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Did y'all miss this one?
Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -
This is what Flyjack posted yesterday at DZ when you said he hadn't.
stop playing games - what is it and where is it from ? The PI Transcript?
Say "mother may I".
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Did y'all miss this one?
Ok have it. Its from the PI Transcript as I originally thought. Maybe this is the "transcript" Kaye is referring to? Why doesn't he just say so and identify it! ?
quote:
3:13pm t1
305: Passenger advises is hijacking enroute to Seattle. Stewardess (Schaffner) has
been handed note requesting 200,000 and knapsack by 5:00pm this afternoon. Wants
2 back pack parachutes. Wants money in negotiable American currency denomination
of bills not important. Has bomb in briefcase and will use if anything is done to block
his request.
3:15pm t1 Scott instructs SEA not to interfere
305: After landing in SEA request no one meet aircraft to hinder. Do not want any
FBI agents or anyone to meet aircraft. Will park aircraft other than gate. Do not
want anyone to approach aircraft from any directions. Will advise later instructions.
Do not ant any equipment at aircraft. Roger?
SEA: Roger 305.
It's Scott or Rataczak doing the talking so its their words -
Lets ignore the games players and move on . . .
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Paper straps vs Rubber bands ...
Would FLYJACK's paper strap claim stand up in Court? No. It would be laughed out of Court especially after Ckret etal testified!
However, there is no substitute for FLYJACK himself in his own words! Here is FLYJACK's rant at DZ just hours ago on this matter ... verbatim.
"FLYJACK
• 969 posts
• #61919
5 hours ago (edited)
The money bank bands or rubber bands..
Georger is such a moron.. typical histrionics from clown boy.
He doesn't understand the evidence, but worse he misstates my position so he can attack a strawman..
There were always rubber bands involved per Brian.. it was never rubber bands vs paper bands.
YOU SCREWED UP THE PACKETS VS BUNDLES... for a decade..
Cooper rec'd packets of 100 bills, they were strapped and possibly rubber banded.
Those packets were RUBBER BANDED into BUNDLES.. (many packets banded together)
get it,, packets are 100 bills and bundles are groups of packets..
The TBAR money had frags of rubber bands, the question is,,, were those rubber bands from the BUNDLES or packets... the bundles were randomized NOT the PACKETS.
The FBI has claimed the money was in order and from one bundle.. (group of packets)
Georger has spent ten years getting this wrong and two years mocking me from a position of utter ignorance.
Like herding kittens...
The significance is,, if the rubber bands held together groups of packets then TBAR $ arrived as one bundle, just as it was given to Cooper. On the other side, if the TBAR $ arrived as 3 individual packets how did they get separated since they were given to Cooper grouped into random bundles. In other words, the rubber bands holding the groups of packets into bundles would have to have been removed.
Georger still can't grasp the difference between a packet and a bundle.. Larry Carr got it wrong a decade ago and Georger still can't get it.
Edited 5 hours ago by FLYJACK "
There it is in it's full glory. Sad. Complex. Confusing. . . . nothing to back it up! No docs, no interviews of people at the bank, no interviews or testimony from anyone, no nuthin. There is nothing more I can add to this Flyjack fiasco.
Good luck.
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Did y'all miss this one?
Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -
This wasn't missed at all. You might try reading the ARINC teletype messages in the "FBI Notes".
This is the teletype message through the ARINC system of NWA 305 passing the word to Minneapolis that they have been hijacked. Just above it is the time that NWA informed Minneapolis through the ARINC teletype system of the time the left the gate in Portland which 2:53 PM PST, their take-off time which was 2:58 PM PST, and their estimated time of arrival in Seattle which was 3:36 PM PST.
Cooper handed the "your being hijacked" note to Flo at about 2:57 PM PST just as the airliner was starting the take-off run.
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Did y'all miss this one?
Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -
This wasn't missed at all. You might try reading the ARINC teletype messages in the "FBI Notes".
This is the teletype message through the ARINC system of NWA 305 passing the word to Minneapolis that they have been hijacked. Just above it is the time that NWA informed Minneapolis through the ARINC teletype system of the time the left the gate in Portland which 2:53 PM PST, their take-off time which was 2:58 PM PST, and their estimated time of arrival in Seattle which was 3:36 PM PST.
Cooper handed the "your being hijacked" note to Flo at about 2:57 PM PST just as the airliner was starting the take-off run.
The issue is the same - are these Cooper's words vs someone else's words?
So certify its Cooper's words and not Scott's, Tina's, Flo's, . . . or some teletype operator's words ?
Has Flo already advised the cockpit he is Latin wanting to go to Mexico a foreign country? Does he want packets or bundles or packages or straps of bills, or all of these?
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Did y'all miss this one?
Yes I think we missed this! What is this from - where did you find it -
This wasn't missed at all. You might try reading the ARINC teletype messages in the "FBI Notes".
This is the teletype message through the ARINC system of NWA 305 passing the word to Minneapolis that they have been hijacked. Just above it is the time that NWA informed Minneapolis through the ARINC teletype system of the time the left the gate in Portland which 2:53 PM PST, their take-off time which was 2:58 PM PST, and their estimated time of arrival in Seattle which was 3:36 PM PST.
Cooper handed the "your being hijacked" note to Flo at about 2:57 PM PST just as the airliner was starting the take-off run.
The issue is the same - are these Cooper's words vs someone else's words?
So certify its Cooper's words and not Scott's, Tina's, Flo's, . . . or some teletype operator's words ?
Has Flo already advised the cockpit he is Latin wanting to go to Mexico a foreign country? Does he want packets or bundles or packages or straps of bills, or all of these?
Reading the statements from Flo and Tina, plus the printouts of the messages sent over the ARINC teletype system to NWA Minneapolis and Seattle, shows that Tina was the first to advise the cockpit crew over the interphone that they were being hijacked even before she got out of her fold down seat which was on the rear bulkhead.
Flo took Cooper's note to the cockpit within a couple of minutes and Cooper's demands were immediately passed through the ARINC system to NWA Minneapolis and Seattle. Cooper's demands were known to NWA managers within minutes of the takeoff from Portland.
Flo stayed in the cockpit and copied information that Tina was passing to her through the interphone. Flo also passed information describing Cooper to NWA managers.
This is all in the statements and ARINC teletype printouts.
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The matter of fact should be what is written on the note that came straight from Cooper's mouth....
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"I am forced to check Shutter's forum to correct Georger's lies and persistent nonsense. Shutter thinks making a false claim isn't lying... he is in denial."
* Nobody is 'forcing' FLYJACK to do anything!
FJ reads words and sees special meanings only he understands.
A passage in one of Tina's interviews reads, quote: " He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package.
* FJ reads this and concludes bank-type bands = paper straps and 'small packages' = "packets" a word FJ claims is a formal banking term everyone involved in the hijacking knew was a formal banking term. Tina could be asked today 'were there paper straps around the small packages of money? The answer is either yes or no! And Tina's words are 'small packages'. not "packets"! Tina could be asked today: "did you know packets is a formal bank term'? All to satisfy FLYJACK's obsession with winning a debate he sees as a personal attack being conducted by me and others! Maybe by "bank type bands" Tina meant 'bank type rubber bands'? Did anyone ask her - No. FJ doesn't have to ask. He just knows what Tina meant.
Let me cite a third example and then I am going to try to close this nonsense off, or we could be here for eternity dealing with FJ's paranoid delusions.
Did Larry Carr find and talk to the bank employees that personally prepared the money for delivery to SEATAC, or not? Yes or No ? The answer is: YES.
*FJ's answer is not to discuss it and avoid it! He labels this: "Georgers strawman". He won't even admit it happened. Then he goes on to explain it, in a ludicrous flurry of thoughts and ideas telling us what the "The bank employees" actually claimed: " The bank employees claimed he randomized and rubber banded the bundles,, Larry Carr and Georger incorrectly assumed he was referring to the packets of 100 bills.. the randomized and rubber banded bundles were groups of packets.. the packets were NOT randomized, Larry Carr thought they were because he confused packets and bundles (groups of packets). The money went to Cooper in packets of 100 bills = $2000 each, those packets were rubber banded into randomized bundles. Georger can't get this, it requires he admit he has been wrong for over a decade.... "
FLY is correct. Georger can't get it. Because that is not what the bank employees said! Not what they told Larry or me. Not what the Ingrams said they found. And there is no FBI document or Interview record that says what FJ is saying .... even remotely. This is all FJ's imagination and paranoia run amuck. What FJ is saying is NOT factual history backed up by facts that anyone has shown or can even be proved!
The rest of FJ's post today is to castigate and threaten Shutter ... " The bank sent a letter to the FBI saying the money was in bank bands 100 bills = $2000 per packet.
Ralph Himmelsbach “There were 10,000 twenty dollar bills assembled in straps of 100 bills to a strap and individual straps held together with rubber bands.” Straps are another term for bank bands. Tosaw claimed paper bands and rubber bands.. Tina handled the money and said "bank type bands around each package". Here Georger lies.. to win an argument, he first misquotes Tina saying "bank bands" then claims "Tina meant rubber bands. She was contacted and asked." This is a lie, Tina was not contacted, this is Georger's strategy to win an argument, lying is acceptable and winning more important than pursuing the truth. After catching Georger in this lie and me requesting clarification Georger shifted to plan B.. discredit and defamation,, since then he has engaged in a long term persistent defamation campaign against me. I have recorded all of it... evidence of a long term persistent defamation campaign and Shutter is 100% legally responsible. "
FLYJACK has an agenda - it goes far beyond the Cooper case or any discussion/exploration people could have about any case. It's something personal. He attracts attention and then he doesn't want attention or any debate about what he has stirred up. These people come and they go, but it always consumes a lot of people's time.
All FJ ever had to do was try to contact Tina or SeaFirst bank employees and try to clarify what actually happened and what people meant, or did not mean ... which is what Carr tried to do. It's what Tom Kaye tried to do to get a clarification about the money story. Kaye finally posted to Dropzone in an attempt to clarify the bands vs straps debate ... his words are still there ... but FJ has never mentioned that, if he even knows about it! Maybe FJ will now add Kaye to his list of liars and people who are WRONG ?
to be continued .... Flyjack will see to that! :rofl:
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All of this between the two forums needs to stop..I don't believe Fly has any mental issues so that remark will be removed.
Also, a false claim can be several things intentional and non-intentional. non-intentional would not be lying..
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Hancock says some interesting things about Flo:
Hancock stated that the note the hijacker handed to Schaffner stated the hijacker had a bomb, in a briefcase he was carrying, and that he wanted $200,000 dollars and absolutely no trickery or interference or he would explode the bomb he said he was carrying ...
Stewardess Schaffner remained in the cockpit remained in the cockpit until just before landing in Seattle.
Hancock says that ‘Flo’ had told her that he hijacker wanted to go to Mexico and was very concerned throughout the flight about Sky Marshals being on board the aircraft.
Then Schaffner went to the back of the plane and asked the hijacker directly if the stewardesses could go and he said: Whatever you girls would like”. Then Hancock and Schaffner left the plane with Mucklow still in the back with the hijacker.
*The issue of destination is usually stated as occurring immediately after the money and parachutes had been brought on board. (see crew testimony). Hancock reports above: Hancock says that ‘Flo’ had told her that he hijacker wanted to go to Mexico and was very concerned throughout the flight about Sky Marshals being on board the aircraft. .... so evidently Cooper had already told Flo they were going to Mexico even before Flo took Cooper's note to the cockpit. This may have influenced Scott and shaped his conversation when he reports at 3:13 "Wants money in negotiable American currency ..." Flo probably told Scott 'he wants to go to Mexico'. In any event it's Scott choice of language, not necessarily Cooper's.
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The matter of fact should be what is written on the note that came straight from Cooper's mouth....
Cooper wrote the original hijacking note which Flo took to the cockpit so it came straight from Cooper's mouth. Cooper asked for and got that note back. The other notes that Flo wrote while she was in the cockpit came from Cooper thru Tina so they are relatively close to his mouth also.
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The matter of fact should be what is written on the note that came straight from Cooper's mouth....
Cooper wrote the original hijacking note which Flo took to the cockpit so it came straight from Cooper's mouth. Cooper asked for and got that note back. The other notes that Flo wrote while she was in the cockpit came from Cooper thru Tina so they are relatively close to his mouth also.
Degrees of separation. It's a simple fact.
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All of this between the two forums needs to stop..I don't believe Fly has any mental issues so that remark will be removed.
Also, a false claim can be several things intentional and non-intentional. non-intentional would not be lying..
Also, a false claim can be several things intentional and non-intentional. non-intentional would not be lying..
- - - thats what people have been trying to tell FLY for years! - - - I mean Larry and others made good faith efforts to resolve straps vs bands. FJ discounts and then ignores all of that. Its simple historical fact at stake! It either happened or it didnt happen! People either found and contacted bank employees, Brian and his mother, and Tina ... or they didn't! I was there for Christ's sake! I was right in the middle of it waiting for answers with other people waiting on answers, so we could get the new money analysis going after Brian shipping money and folders. There was a lot at stake!
I mean we are sitting here with thousands of dollars at stake, people in four labs waiting, and suddenly this bs about straps vs bands comes up out of nowhere! Everyone waits .... primarily on Larry ... then I get involved to try and speed things up . . . and now FJ says it never happened or if it did happen everyone was WRONG or LYING or whatever!
:rofl:
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It's only lying if you are knowingly making claims that are not true and can easily be noted as false. if the money bag pops up out of nowhere and has bundles of $2,000 banded does that make someone a liar that stated several bundles of $2,000 were banded together in the bag or believed to be gathered that way? no, it just makes that person wrong..is a theory a lie?
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A lot of things are in a very gray area..the bank states different bank straps were on the money...Tina did state bank type bands..then you have eye witness accounts telling a different story.
three bundles showing up miles from the path presents a problem anyway you look at this..it would take time to make different amounts and band them to make it appear to be random while on the other hand it would take a couple minutes to band different amounts of $2,000 bundles/packets/piles/cubes/wads etc. etc.
I believe Tina also said small packages and no mention of different sizes..gray area once again.
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A lot of things are in a very gray area..the bank states different bank straps were on the money...Tina did state bank type bands..then you have eye witness accounts telling a different story.
three bundles showing up miles from the path presents a problem anyway you look at this..it would take time to make different amounts and band them to make it appear to be random while on the other hand it would take a couple minutes to band different amounts of $2,000 bundles/packets/piles/cubes/wads etc. etc.
I believe Tina also said small packages and no mention of different sizes..gray area once again.
Thats right ... Tina said : "$200,000 in cash in small bills" Scott turns around and screws that up says: "denomination of bills not important. "
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Here are the words used for the money by various people in the Cooper case ... this is not an exhaustive list, no 302's have been included. :
Phrase/words for the money:
Schafner interview:
Schaffner furnished 13 pages of notes which she took during the course of the flight.
Hancock interview:
a ransom note demanding $200,000 dollars in cash.
and that he wanted $200,000 dollars and absolutely no trickery
Schaffner went to the cockpit of the aircraft (with the note the hijacker had written and another list of his demands she had written as the hijacker dictated his demands to her), to advise the Captain of the plane of the situation.
Mucklow Interview1:
used a plain envelope to write out the demands of the hijacker, listing that he wanted four parachutes including two back packs and two chest packs, $200,000 in cash in small bills, and that he wanted everything by “by five o’clock”. Mucklow says that Florence Schaffner delivered this note to the pilot’s compartment,
He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package.
The hijacker agreed with her suggestion and reached in and took out one package of the money, denominations not recalled by Mucklow, and he handed the (single) bundle of money to her!
be delivered in a knapsack but instead it was delivered in a cloth type bank bag, which displeased him.
Mucklow2:
The hijacker later told (repeated to) Mucklow that he wanted $200,000 in circulated US currency,
Pilot Notes:
2310 - wants money in negotiable currency to be passed & a crew member.
PI Transcript:
3:13pm 305: …. Wants money in negotiable American currency denomination of bills not important.
Tina: $200,000 in cash in small bills …… so Scott screwed that up!
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I was talking about when she looked in the bag..she failed to say different size packages only small packages..this could be stating all the same size..it's a gray area..
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I was talking about when she looked in the bag..she failed to say different size packages only small packages..this could be stating all the same size..it's a gray area..
He opened the bag and inspected the contents which Mucklow said she observed was money packed in small packages with bank-type bands around each package.
Yes exactly - it fits with how the bank employee said he packaged the bills in small random sized groups, no two groups the same amount, and wrapped each group with one or more rubber bands. He is dealing with a line of money on a tray. He is packaging the bills into groups or bundles (I believe he used the word "bundles") each bundle a different amount or number of bills, with one or more rubber bands applied to each bundle. No two bundles the same amount.
The security guy said "bank type paper straps or bands" had purposely been removed long before the packaging guy even did his work making bundles, so no name of a bank would be known ... and the bills put in random order ... the whole process designed to look as if the bills had been assembled in haste with no recording or consecutive order of bills ...
Tom Kaye reports the same process from his research. Kaye posted at DZ starting 'you guys have spent enough time screwing around with how the money was packaged - he's how it happened' ... Tom didn;t mince words. I dont recall FJ even being at DZ when Tom intervened and posted this at DZ..
We know the facts. It has reached the point because of FJ that people are no longer willing to come back to this ancient history ... and most people dont care if FJ claims camels in Iceland packed the money using tractors! The case is closed. The only thing FJ could possibly get from his machinations is a press release in the Inquirer or some other rag. We know the facts. The FBI knows the facts. Thats all that matters. The case is closed.
** what does matter is what the Ingrams found and saw - the state of the money as given to Cooper. Brian was pissed when this all came up suddenly but he took it in stride. We all waited on Larry's report. I finally got to talk to Brian's mother and she gave a very solid report about what they had seen at the time. The idea that any paper straps between the bills would be dissolved because of water, is nonsense. That's a red herring and laughable. It shook us up because we had planned on finding rubber band fragments and wanted to do an analysis of those - bigtime! I wont explain why - thats propriety. We had four labs including a diatom lab at UWash sitting waiting ... and it all blew up in our faces. People were very angry. Fuck it!
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May I ask another question about a seemingly well-known fact, that is, Cooper wearing "loafers?" I know that it has been discussed here before, but only in passing. I just read a number of interviews with the crew in the "Vault' area of the website. All those describing Cooper's clothing described his dark "shoes," without specifying the kind, except for Tina Mucklow. In the section labeled: Interview of Mucklow 12/1-2 at her home in PA: she is quoted as follows. Clothing: Dark brown suit possibly with thin black stripes, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not type shoes (loafers).
The wording is confusing to me. I suppose it could have been mis-transcribed, as the document i was reading was not an original (Word document, rather than a scan of a typewritten document). However, that could be read as meaning "ankle length shoes, but specifically not loafer type shoes." In other words, possibly even low cut boots. Not that it makes an enormous difference- Mark Metzler has said that he once jumped in loafers, with no big problems. It is part of the mythology, though. Are there other sources that describe Cooper wearing loafers?
Does anyone have thoughts on this earlier post of mine? I don't want to traffic in gender stereotypes, but in my experience, women are often more observant than men when it comes to shoes. If Tina Mucklow said "ankle length," that doesn't sound like a loafer to me. She also doesn't say "boot." Could it be something like this picture I found of a 1959 Genesco steel toed work shoe, supposedly made for the US Military? I don't mean this exact shoe, but something like it.
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May I ask another question about a seemingly well-known fact, that is, Cooper wearing "loafers?" I know that it has been discussed here before, but only in passing. I just read a number of interviews with the crew in the "Vault' area of the website. All those describing Cooper's clothing described his dark "shoes," without specifying the kind, except for Tina Mucklow. In the section labeled: Interview of Mucklow 12/1-2 at her home in PA: she is quoted as follows. Clothing: Dark brown suit possibly with thin black stripes, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not type shoes (loafers).
The wording is confusing to me. I suppose it could have been mis-transcribed, as the document i was reading was not an original (Word document, rather than a scan of a typewritten document). However, that could be read as meaning "ankle length shoes, but specifically not loafer type shoes." In other words, possibly even low cut boots. Not that it makes an enormous difference- Mark Metzler has said that he once jumped in loafers, with no big problems. It is part of the mythology, though. Are there other sources that describe Cooper wearing loafers?
Does anyone have thoughts on this earlier post of mine? I don't want to traffic in gender stereotypes, but in my experience, women are often more observant than men when it comes to shoes. If Tina Mucklow said "ankle length," that doesn't sound like a loafer to me. She also doesn't say "boot." Could it be something like this picture I found of a 1959 Genesco steel toed work shoe, supposedly made for the US Military? I don't mean this exact shoe, but something like it.
I wasnt there to see them! ;)
But FJ says Cooper stole shoes from the Heisson store:
#61947
just now
"Cooper shoes weren't loafers, as claimed, they were laceless ankle boots..
There was a store break in the night of NORJAK in the LZ, survival rations and ciggs were taken, the shoes were a military type corrugated sole.. A commando sole was an option for many ankle boots."
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Hancock says some interesting things about Flo:
Hancock stated that the note the hijacker handed to Schaffner stated the hijacker had a bomb, in a briefcase he was carrying, and that he wanted $200,000 dollars and absolutely no trickery or interference or he would explode the bomb he said he was carrying ...
Stewardess Schaffner remained in the cockpit remained in the cockpit until just before landing in Seattle.
Hancock says that ‘Flo’ had told her that he hijacker wanted to go to Mexico and was very concerned throughout the flight about Sky Marshals being on board the aircraft.
Then Schaffner went to the back of the plane and asked the hijacker directly if the stewardesses could go and he said: Whatever you girls would like”. Then Hancock and Schaffner left the plane with Mucklow still in the back with the hijacker.
*The issue of destination is usually stated as occurring immediately after the money and parachutes had been brought on board. (see crew testimony). Hancock reports above: Hancock says that ‘Flo’ had told her that he hijacker wanted to go to Mexico and was very concerned throughout the flight about Sky Marshals being on board the aircraft. .... so evidently Cooper had already told Flo they were going to Mexico even before Flo took Cooper's note to the cockpit. This may have influenced Scott and shaped his conversation when he reports at 3:13 "Wants money in negotiable American currency ..." Flo probably told Scott 'he wants to go to Mexico'. In any event it's Scott choice of language, not necessarily Cooper's.
Interesting point, G. Thanks.
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May I ask another question about a seemingly well-known fact, that is, Cooper wearing "loafers?" I know that it has been discussed here before, but only in passing. I just read a number of interviews with the crew in the "Vault' area of the website. All those describing Cooper's clothing described his dark "shoes," without specifying the kind, except for Tina Mucklow. In the section labeled: Interview of Mucklow 12/1-2 at her home in PA: she is quoted as follows. Clothing: Dark brown suit possibly with thin black stripes, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not type shoes (loafers).
The wording is confusing to me. I suppose it could have been mis-transcribed, as the document i was reading was not an original (Word document, rather than a scan of a typewritten document). However, that could be read as meaning "ankle length shoes, but specifically not loafer type shoes." In other words, possibly even low cut boots. Not that it makes an enormous difference- Mark Metzler has said that he once jumped in loafers, with no big problems. It is part of the mythology, though. Are there other sources that describe Cooper wearing loafers?
Does anyone have thoughts on this earlier post of mine? I don't want to traffic in gender stereotypes, but in my experience, women are often more observant than men when it comes to shoes. If Tina Mucklow said "ankle length," that doesn't sound like a loafer to me. She also doesn't say "boot." Could it be something like this picture I found of a 1959 Genesco steel toed work shoe, supposedly made for the US Military? I don't mean this exact shoe, but something like it.
Good find, Bookie. T'anks.
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May I ask another question about a seemingly well-known fact, that is, Cooper wearing "loafers?" I know that it has been discussed here before, but only in passing. I just read a number of interviews with the crew in the "Vault' area of the website. All those describing Cooper's clothing described his dark "shoes," without specifying the kind, except for Tina Mucklow. In the section labeled: Interview of Mucklow 12/1-2 at her home in PA: she is quoted as follows. Clothing: Dark brown suit possibly with thin black stripes, brown socks, brown ankle length pebble grain shoes, not type shoes (loafers).
The wording is confusing to me. I suppose it could have been mis-transcribed, as the document i was reading was not an original (Word document, rather than a scan of a typewritten document). However, that could be read as meaning "ankle length shoes, but specifically not loafer type shoes." In other words, possibly even low cut boots. Not that it makes an enormous difference- Mark Metzler has said that he once jumped in loafers, with no big problems. It is part of the mythology, though. Are there other sources that describe Cooper wearing loafers?
Does anyone have thoughts on this earlier post of mine? I don't want to traffic in gender stereotypes, but in my experience, women are often more observant than men when it comes to shoes. If Tina Mucklow said "ankle length," that doesn't sound like a loafer to me. She also doesn't say "boot." Could it be something like this picture I found of a 1959 Genesco steel toed work shoe, supposedly made for the US Military? I don't mean this exact shoe, but something like it.
Good find, Bookie. T'anks.
If FJ is right and Coop stole boots at the Heisson store .... see his photos - then Cooper was set for traveling. The key is did they apprehend somebody for the breakin ... did they have a suspect? You should check that out Bruce.
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Yes, I should. Sigh...
... it's on the list.
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Yes, I should. Sigh...
... it's on the list.
Shove it up the list to No. 1! First thing next Monday! ;) There have to be some investigation records still on file... one hopes! Didnt FJ post a newspaper article about it ... I will look.
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Easy for you to say, G. Whadda you takin'? Adderall? I don't get up until noon.
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Isn't Fly basically saying he broke in after the hijacking vs before it?
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Needing boots out in the woods? I've never had that problem unless I go in the Everglades..I don't see a real need for them.
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Isn't Fly basically saying he broke in after the hijacking vs before it?
Yes, right after the landing. Same night as ? ... I forget the breakin date and time. The breakin has to be after say 8:20 pm. Lets see what we can dig up from the Sheriff's office ... or newspapers.
Breakin at about 11:30pm night of 11/24. Store and current owners ... can see the railroad crossing (that goes to Vancouver) right behind it.
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I don't know what the fuss is about.
Even if Cooper said, "Negotiable American Currency," why is that weird? He's headed to a state that borders Canada and might not want less-valuable Canadian dollars. Would you? Would they accept them in Mexico, where you may end up tonight? Not as readily. American dollars, they would. Better be concise.
Just skip it and move on.
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I don't know what the fuss is about.
Even if Cooper said, "Negotiable American Currency," why is that weird? He's headed to a state that borders Canada and might not want less-valuable Canadian dollars. Would you? Would they accept them in Mexico, where you may end up tonight? Not as readily. American dollars, they would. Better be concise.
Just skip it and move on.
I'm actually reading Bookman right now saying the same thing at DZ yesterday. Not so hard to conjure.
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More chaos on the shoes Cooper wore. It's all my fault. FLYJACK SAYS: (which is why I am not going to bring any further FJ posts here!) I guess FJ is just projecting/guessing out loud - Cooper did NOT steal boots from the Heisson store... maybe what FJ is doing is just using posts at DZ to think out loud and nothing he posts should be taken seriously , , , damned if I can figure him out.
FLYJACK
#61951
5 hours ago (edited)
My GOD,, Georger is a F******* M******
NOBODY STOLE BOOTS FROM THE STORE.
THERE WERE NO BOOTS STOLEN FROM THE STORE.... G MADE THAT UP BECAUSE HE MISUNDERSTOOD THE REPORT.
He can't get anything straight.
Cooper may have been wearing the same boots the whole time... laceless ankle boots with corrugated "Commando" soles.. they can resemble loafers in appearance with the pant material partially covering.
They were also describes as "ankle" high, that isn't a loafer. Laceless can appear like a loafer.. they were also described as street shoes.
Something like this,, laceless, ankle high, appears like a street shoe or loafer (pant leg covering) and has a commando sole.
FLYJACK
*Correct. I guess G MADE THAT UP BECAUSE HE MISUNDERSTOOD THE REPORT. (G doesnt understand anything FLYJACK says! FLYJACK is in a world of his own. FJ spends all of his time looking at files and posts ... maybe he found these shoes in a past post at DZ? Didnt somebody bring these same shoe-boots up once before, years ago? Now here it is again as a FJ discovery? Pete and RePete. Oh well ...) :chr2:
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Does anyone know if the boot prints were made by “Wing Walker” chukka boots?
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Does anyone know if the boot prints were made by “Wing Walker” chukka boots?
You mean at the Heisson store break-in?
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New info at DZ about the dna profiles the FBI has ...
Party says the FBI has around 14 partial profiles from the tie. Says the whole issue needs to be put in the hands of non-FBI people because the FBI is untrustworthy. (Where have we heard that before?) That the FBI doesnt really want to solve the case. There was high level intervention in the case. And other stuff... Go read it at Dropzone.
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Does anyone know if the boot prints were made by “Wing Walker” chukka boots?
You mean at the Heisson store break-in?
Yes, or on the plane.
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Does anyone know if the boot prints were made by “Wing Walker” chukka boots?
You mean at the Heisson store break-in?
Yes I thought so - thanks. Since the crew described seeing loafers Im inclined to go with that pending some revelation from somebody! ;)
Yes, or on the plane.
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Clarification on the Heisson story flyjack posted the 302 a while back and he never said boots were stolen, the 302 says there were military style boot prints found at the scene. I can see how you could get that mixed up. FJ posted some shoes that had the same type of military sole but resembled loafers.
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Clarification on the Heisson story flyjack posted the 302 a while back and he never said boots were stolen, the 302 says there were military style boot prints found at the scene. I can see how you could get that mixed up. FJ posted some shoes that had the same type of military sole but resembled loafers.
The sheriff's report might add some clarification ... and as FJ notes, there was a railroad crossing just feet from the store. The shoe debate has gone around and around for years ... when they find impressions of a military style boot on the money - lets us all know! Im probably giving somebody a new narrative here! ;) ;)
McNally might have an opinion about Cooper's style of dress?
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Clarification on the Heisson story flyjack posted the 302 a while back and he never said boots were stolen, the 302 says there were military style boot prints found at the scene. I can see how you could get that mixed up. FJ posted some shoes that had the same type of military sole but resembled loafers.
Im sure you've been reading FJ's posts at DZ. See his post on a parachute found in the area. Evidently the FBI rejected the chute based on advice from Cossey!
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Another doc related to the Heisson matter above -
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Interesting. A search of News Articles brings up only four (4) instances of the phrase, "negotiable American currency."
1927 - NY Daily News, in an article about the purse of the upcoming Dempsey vs. Tunney rematch
1958 - The Montgomery Advisor (Ala.), Politics section, in a nameless editorial rant about money in baseball
1970 - (*See Attachment 1)
2011 - In a Canadian article about the Citizen Sleuths.
The 1970 date stuck out to me, and I read that one first. Then it mentioned counterfeit money, which peaked my interested even more...
And then I removed the word "American" and searched again, and was wildly underwhelmed by the over 3,000 instances of that phrase being written in newsprint, from all regions and most states of the country as well as Australia, Canada and the U.K. Everything from police blotters to financial news to freaking horoscopes has the term "negotiable currency" in it. One instance was a lawsuit with an order to pay the plaintiff in "negotiable currency of the United States."
Verdict: the term is not altogether irrelevant, but does not establish likelihood of being Canadian or otherwise foreign. At best it shows that Cooper was better at communicating than your average Warner Brothers cartoon mob goon.
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Interesting. A search of News Articles brings up only four (4) instances of the phrase, "negotiable American currency."
1927 - NY Daily News, in an article about the purse of the upcoming Dempsey vs. Tunney rematch
1958 - The Montgomery Advisor (Ala.), Politics section, in a nameless editorial rant about money in baseball
1970 - (*See Attachment 1)
2011 - In a Canadian article about the Citizen Sleuths.
The 1970 date stuck out to me, and I read that one first. Then it mentioned counterfeit money, which peaked my interested even more...
And then I removed the word "American" and searched again, and was wildly underwhelmed by the over 3,000 instances of that phrase being written in newsprint, from all regions and most states of the country as well as Australia, Canada and the U.K. Everything from police blotters to financial news to freaking horoscopes has the term "negotiable currency" in it. One instance was a lawsuit with an order to pay the plaintiff in "negotiable currency of the United States."
Verdict: the term is not altogether irrelevant, but does not establish likelihood of being Canadian or otherwise foreign. At best it shows that Cooper was better at communicating than your a
COMPLAINTS FILED! There is something wrong with you bud.
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Interesting. A search of News Articles brings up only four (4) instances of the phrase, "negotiable American currency."
1927 - NY Daily News, in an article about the purse of the upcoming Dempsey vs. Tunney rematch
1958 - The Montgomery Advisor (Ala.), Politics section, in a nameless editorial rant about money in baseball
1970 - (*See Attachment 1)
2011 - In a Canadian article about the Citizen Sleuths.
The 1970 date stuck out to me, and I read that one first. Then it mentioned counterfeit money, which peaked my interested even more...
And then I removed the word "American" and searched again, and was wildly underwhelmed by the over 3,000 instances of that phrase being written in newsprint, from all regions and most states of the country as well as Australia, Canada and the U.K. Everything from police blotters to financial news to freaking horoscopes has the term "negotiable currency" in it. One instance was a lawsuit with an order to pay the plaintiff in "negotiable currency of the United States."
Verdict: the term is not altogether irrelevant, but does not establish likelihood of being Canadian or otherwise foreign. At best it shows that Cooper was better at communicating than your a
COMPLAINTS FILED! There is something wrong with you bud.
1) Complaint about what?
2) Make sure to file a second complaint about yourself calling Eric and/or Bruce a wackjob (see other thread).
3) Really, just log off and go away if you have nothing to contribute.
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Does the FBI have DB Cooper`s airplane ticket or boarding pass? If he touched those then his DNA could be on that.
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Does the FBI have DB Cooper`s airplane ticket or boarding pass? If he touched those then his DNA could be on that.
Ticket here: http://www.thedbcooperforum.com/gallery/?sa=view;pic=13
If I'm not mistaken the ticket clerk filled it out for him and took his money. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
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The question is would Cooper have handled it at all?
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The question is would Cooper have handled it at all?
Not necessarily. In the 1971 time frame, the selling agent filled out the form which was probably a two or three page booklet in this case. If three pages, the selling agent would keep one page, the gate agent would collect the second page as Cooper boarded the aircraft, and Cooper would be left with the bottom page. If it was two pages, the gate agent would collect the top page which would go the the airline accounting office and Cooper would keep the bottom page.
When the selling agent completed the form and it got stamped, he would probably place the remaining forms in a small folder and write the gate number and maybe boarding time on the folder and give the paperwork to Cooper. It is unlikely that Cooper handled the completed form and he took anything he had left of the paperwork after boarding with him when he jumped. If the selling agent and gate agent each kept a copy then those copies would go the accounting office and maybe elsewhere.
The reason for the agents doing all the writing and paperwork was to expediate things and to make sure that the information was accurate and correctly entered on the form. If it was a cash transaction, as in the Cooper hijacking, no name or anything else was verified.
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If it was a 3 page document that was used and the 2 remaining documents were placed into a folder by the selling agent, who would have ended up with the folder? Would the boarding agent give Cooper his copy and keep the remaining copy and folder or would Cooper get his personal copy and also the folder? Are any of the agents still around to ask questions of?
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If it was a 3 page document that was used and the 2 remaining documents were placed into a folder by the selling agent, who would have ended up with the folder? Would the boarding agent give Cooper his copy and keep the remaining copy and folder or would Cooper get his personal copy and also the folder? Are any of the agents still around to ask questions of?
After the gate agent took his copy, Cooper would end up with the remaining copy and the folder.
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Questions about the "X" on the dummy chute that indicated it being a dummy chute....
1. Was the "X" a universal symbol that was used to mark dummy chutes as dummies? In other words, did every single parachute company/jump facility use an "X" to mark their dummy chutes?
Or was the "X" not universal and some places used an "X" while other places used some other type of marking?
2. If the "X" was indeed a universal marking, when did it become so?
3. Did the military have their own way of marking dummy chutes? If the "X" was used in the civilian parachuting world, did the military also use the "X" or did they have their own type of marking?
4. Was the dummy chute that Cooper took a military dummy or a sport dummy? (I believe I once read that it was a military chute, like the main chute he used. But wanted to verify)
I know there are a couple experienced skydivers here that I'm hoping might be able to answer these questions. Thanks in advance.
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Assessing the FBI's Investigation
What do you think the FBI got right, got wrong, didn't do enough of, etc. in Norjak?
Wouldn't it be great if Larry Carr and Curtis Eng came to CooperCon 2021 and anchored a panel discussion on this topic? What would you like to hear, say?
Please let me know. I'm developing a chapter on that theme. Below is a draft version:
Chapter 40
Assessing the FBI investigation
The FBI is arguably the world’s best investigatory organization. So, why can’t they solve the DB Cooper case?
I asked former SA Gary Tallis that question, and his reply surprised me: “Because they haven’t found a body. If we had a body, all the answers would follow.”
But what happens to an investigation when there isn’t a body? Adding to that conundrum, how should the FBI proceed when they have so little tangible evidence? It’s not an easy job, I admit. Losing evidence doesn’t help, either. But large bureaucracies have screw-ups, lose stuff, and have less-than-adequate agents sprinkled throughout the organization, even at managerial levels. So, after their 45 years of investigating DB Cooper, how did they do? And what can happen from this point forward?
Scanning through the issues, we can identify particular people, places, and events that have been problematic. Some items might have resolution; some might not. Here’s a list:
1. Cigarette Butts
- Where are they?
- If lost, is anyone looking for them?
- Were they processed for DNA analysis, as indicated by case agent Larry Carr?
- If so, where is the paperwork?
2. Ground Search
- Why was the ground search called off on Monday, November 29, 1971?
- Why did Seattle FO tell FBI HQ that there was too much snow on the ground to continue, when there was no snow reported in the LZ-A by local officials.
3. Clip-on Tie
- Why did it reportedly enter the Seattle evidence cache four days after the hijacking?
- Where was it for that time?
- Was the chain of custody broken?
- What does it mean that no one involved in the evidence retrieval in Reno, specifically Tina Mucklow, Red Campbell, Jack Ricks, John Norris, and Alf Stousland, could remember the tie when questioned in the 1980s by Bernie Rhodes?
- To what extent, if any, did the FBI follow-up on the Citizen Sleuth's discovery of titanium and rare earth minerals on the tie?
4. Reno, fingerprints
- Who conducted the fingerprint search aboard 305?
- How many prints were obtained in that search?
- Why weren’t the “In-flight” magazines gathered into evidence?
- Have any reconstructions of the fingerprints been undertaken?
5. Reno, behaviors of FBI agents
- What happened to cause the memories of the agents on evidence retrieval to be forgetful, fuzzy or in conflict with each other?
- Were these agents “victims of some strange post-hypnotic suggestion,” as Bernie Rhodes has written?
- Did MKULTRA play a part in Norjak?
6. SOG and 727s
- What was the complete role of 727s in the Vietnam War?
- Were they used to deploy soldiers into combat?
- Did any combat units utilize techniques similar to those of DB Cooper, ie: jumping from a 727 with flaps at 15, gear down and locked, etc.?
7. Money Retrieval
- How many shards of money were found at Tina Bar?
- Where are they, currently, especially the larger ones in the 2-3-inch category?
- Did the FBI find part of DB Cooper’s briefcase at Tina Bar, as reported by PIO Dorwin Schreuder?
- Why was the money found in a highly compressed state?
- What kinds of follow-up were done along the Columbia River, i.e.: fishermen interviewed, other sites dug-up, etc.?
- What does the discovery of springtime diatoms on the money mean?
8. Richard McCoy
- What was he doing in Las Vegas on November 24–25, 1971?
- What was he doing there on November 2–3, 1971?
- How did he learn the details of hijacking an airplane?
- What was his relationship with “Dan Cooper?”
- Why does the Seattle FO accept McCoy’s alibi that he was home with family on Thanksgiving, refuting the findings from Salt Lake City FBI agents?
- How did he get that $6,000 in late 1971 that funded his family’s trip to North Carolina?
9. Radar Findings
- What did SAGE radar record the night of November 24, 1971?
- Why do the Seattle transcripts have over one-dozen redactions?
- Did the F-106s and the T-33 following Flight 305 have any radar findings of Cooper or his jump? If not, why not?
- Why did NORAD tell Major Dawson to “back off” the F-106s, and pull out the chaff?
10. Earl Cossey
- What was the true role of Earl Cossey in the Norjak investigation?
- Did he actually own the “back” parachutes delivered to the hijacker, as he claimed?
- Did Cossey influence the FBI’s perspective that Cooper was an inexperienced skydiver?
- Why did the FBI flip-flop on their assessment of Cooper’s skills?
- Why was Cossey murdered? Why is that crime still unsolved?
11. Care of Evidence
- Why weren’t pictures taken of the parachutes?
- Why weren’t pictures taken at Tina Bar of the shards, and the specific activities of the money retrieval, like the beach slope, the actual location, close-ups of shards buried at three-feet, etc.
11. Suspects: Unanswered Questions –
- Why was Robert Rackstraw dismissed as a suspect in 1979 after the FBI arrested him in Paris, France on his return to the United States from Iran.
- Did E. Howard Hunt, or someone like him, play a role in Norjak?
12. What was the full impact of the DB Cooper skyjacking
- Did it affect national politics?
- Did it enhance the efforts to federalize airline safety?
13. Would the FBI be willing to participate in a public debriefing of Norjak?
- Will the FBI send agents such as Larry Carr and Curtis Eng to CooperCon 2021 to anchor a panel discussion assessing the FBI’s investigation?
Lastly, why aren’t these questions enough to re-open the case? How can the FBI reasonably walk away from Norjak with this amount of outstanding doubt?
Then we always have the issue of a cover-up, of a federal conspiracy to keep the public knowing the truth of Norjak. Certainly, there have been numerous instances of sloppy police work, systemic deficiencies within the FBI, and problematic decision-making. But does this mean there is an actual attempt to prevent us from knowing the truth of DB Cooper?
I don’t know. I have no direct evidence that supports a cover up. All I have is circumstantial evidence that suggests Norjak has been compromised.
But besides these specific concerns is the failure of leadership. This issue has impacted the case in every dimension. At times, no one seemed to be in complete command of Norjak—certainly in the early stages of the investigation. Farrell was in charge of Seattle-based activities, Manning on the ground near Ariel, Mattson in Portland and later Himmelsbach; and then Campbell and his Las Vegas-based crew in Reno.
But why didn’t Charlie Farrell jump on a plane and fly to Reno to ensure the proper retrieval of evidence, thus minimizing the predictable bureaucratic turf battles that followed?
Additionally, Farrell and his team worked in secrecy. The public knows little of his work. Farrell is reported to have penned a 300-page account of his experiences in Norjak, and Geoffrey Gray says he has read it. But my efforts to obtain access to a copy have been met by resistance from the Farrell family.
Similarly, the Norjak case agent at the time of the money find, Ron Nichols, remains totally silent on the money find, shards, and documentation. More troubling, why didn’t Nichols jump in his car and drive the three hours to T-Bar to supervise the money recovery?
Nichols’ failures are coupled with the stonewalling from Himmelsbach on the money controversies, making the whole situation unacceptable.
Another example of poor supervision was the care given to the evidence stored in Seattle. Before being shipped to HQ in 2016, the main pieces were stored loosely in a cardboard box that looked like it once held knickknacks from someone's attic. Concerns over the chain of custody pepper Norjak as well, such as the clip-on tie being torn apart by the Citizen Sleuths. It appears they were able to review physical evidence without any FBI agent present, although Alan Stone refutes that assumption.
Nevertheless, these breaks in the chain of custody are serious concerns. The DZ’s 377, an attorney in the Bay Area, offers a cogent view of the matter:
The FBI has been amazingly cavalier about the handling of physical evidence (in Norjak). It’s not normal practice. As a defense lawyer, when I had my experts examine physical evidence or run lab tests the prosecution enforced strict protocols so that the custody chain was unbroken and fully documented and that contamination or alteration of evidence was prevented.
Even in minor cases this was how things were handled. I represented a ghetto bar owner who the cops hated. He was arrested for serving alcohol to a minor. It was a major hassle just to get a sample of the drink which was preserved. My lab had to sign for the sample and document its handling at every step. The prosecution wisely only gave my lab a portion of the sample so that they had a control if my findings were later to be disputed. My client got really lucky. My lab tested zero alcohol. When the police lab repeated their test, they found the same thing. Case dismissed.
It might be that the FBI has some undisclosed evidence that has been very carefully handled and that is highly probative in identifying Cooper, enough so that a conviction could be secured without any other evidence. Cigarette butts might fit this description. It just makes no sense that they would be ‘lost.’
Peterson, a highly qualified suspect, was ruled out on DNA. Maybe it wasn’t tie DNA but cigarette DNA, which would be more confidently linked to DB Cooper.
In addition, there was an uncanny passivity to the FBI’s work at times. Ralph Himmelsbach never interviewed Tina even though she moved to the Portland area after the skyjacking for medical treatment and then spent decades in Eugene, just two hours south. Is this a proper handling of a primary witness in a major case? More troubling, Himmelsbach’s book reveals—and Dorwin Schreuder confirms—that for much of the Norjak era the Portland FO had a reactionary stance to the investigation, and only responded to leads as they came in to the office. Similarly, Seattle agents, such as Bob Sale and Sid Rubin, have also indicated that the Cooper case was near-dormant in the Seattle FO between the money find in 1980 and the resurgence in the late 1990s.
Further, did silence on the details of the case really serve the investigation? Why didn’t a single FBI agent attend the DB Cooper Symposium in 2011 or 2013 or the CooperCons in 2018 and 2019? What did that avoidance achieve? What kind of investigatory integrity did that maintain?
At times, it appears that FBI agents don’t talk with one another, either, even when working on the same case. Galen has a telling story on this subject:
Seems like the NORJAK agents die by the vine, but DB Cooper lives on. The Bureau must hate that. No one ever hears from Carr since he left. He e-mailed me about six months after I started talking with Eng, but Eng wasn’t too enthused that I was still talking with Carr about the case. Led me to believe that the agents aren’t necessarily on the same page, and rather territorial of their own turf, even among other agents.
Part of this non-sharing with fellow agents was fostered by J. Edgar Hoover. As discussed previously, Hoover awarded cash bonuses to agents who busted tough cases, so field agents had an incentive not to share since it could cost them money. Plus, we have the pressures seeping from the mundane area of internal politics: promotions based upon performance, and assignments determined by one's status within the office.
As for my relationship with FBI agents, when I ask questions beyond their initial set story they balk. I call it the “One and Done” scenario. I get one good interview—usually a recitation of their well-rehearsed narrative—then, nothing. Follow-up phone calls and emails go unanswered. Thus, I strongly suspect that what I was told initially was a spin job, and they don’t want me to scratch beneath the surface.
More troubling, formal communications with the FBI become seriously strained in 2015 when I was informed the FBI had a new policy for communicating with journalists. Simply, the FBI stopped talking to anyone about Norjak unless the contact was specifically authorized. After years of exchanging increasingly opaque emails with PIO Ayn Dietrich-Williams, she finally stated the obvious on December 7, 2015:
The FBI’s media policy prohibits discussing ongoing investigations unless a release is specifically thought to have potential benefit to the investigation.
…I understand your continued interest in our investigation and apologize that I will not be able to share additional information to answer your questions.
Nevertheless, I have not abandoned all hope in the FBI, and I will be providing them with a “Special Edition” of this book, complete with phone numbers and contact information for all of the major figures of the case. At least then, the Bureau will have a comprehensive overview of the case for future investigators to consult.
Of course, they can call me anytime for assistance. Or they can join the DB Cooper Forum!
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Assessing the FBI's Investigation
What do you think the FBI got right, got wrong, didn't do enough of, etc. in Norjak?
Wouldn't it be great if Larry Carr and Curtis Eng came to CooperCon 2021 and anchored a panel discussion on this topic? What would you like to hear, say?
Please let me know. I'm developing a chapter on that theme. Below is a draft version:
Chapter 40
Assessing the FBI investigation
The FBI is arguably the world’s best investigatory organization. So, why can’t they solve the DB Cooper case?
I asked former SA Gary Tallis that question, and his reply surprised me: “Because they haven’t found a body. If we had a body, all the answers would follow.”
But what happens to an investigation when there isn’t a body? Adding to that conundrum, how should the FBI proceed when they have so little tangible evidence? It’s not an easy job, I admit. Losing evidence doesn’t help, either. But large bureaucracies have screw-ups, lose stuff, and have less-than-adequate agents sprinkled throughout the organization, even at managerial levels. So, after their 45 years of investigating DB Cooper, how did they do? And what can happen from this point forward?
Scanning through the issues, we can identify particular people, places, and events that have been problematic. Some items might have resolution; some might not. Here’s a list:
1. Cigarette Butts
- Where are they?
- If lost, is anyone looking for them?
- Were they processed for DNA analysis, as indicated by case agent Larry Carr?
- If so, where is the paperwork?
2. Ground Search
- Why was the ground search called off on Monday, November 29, 1971?
- Why did Seattle FO tell FBI HQ that there was too much snow on the ground to continue, when there was no snow reported in the LZ-A by local officials.
3. Clip-on Tie
- Why did it reportedly enter the Seattle evidence cache four days after the hijacking?
- Where was it for that time?
- Was the chain of custody broken?
- What does it mean that no one involved in the evidence retrieval in Reno, specifically Tina Mucklow, Red Campbell, Jack Ricks, John Norris, and Alf Stousland, could remember the tie when questioned in the 1980s by Bernie Rhodes?
- To what extent, if any, did the FBI follow-up on the Citizen Sleuth's discovery of titanium and rare earth minerals on the tie?
4. Reno, fingerprints
- Who conducted the fingerprint search aboard 305?
- How many prints were obtained in that search?
- Why weren’t the “In-flight” magazines gathered into evidence?
- Have any reconstructions of the fingerprints been undertaken?
5. Reno, behaviors of FBI agents
- What happened to cause the memories of the agents on evidence retrieval to be forgetful, fuzzy or in conflict with each other?
- Were these agents “victims of some strange post-hypnotic suggestion,” as Bernie Rhodes has written?
- Did MKULTRA play a part in Norjak?
6. SOG and 727s
- What was the complete role of 727s in the Vietnam War?
- Were they used to deploy soldiers into combat?
- Did any combat units utilize techniques similar to those of DB Cooper, ie: jumping from a 727 with flaps at 15, gear down and locked, etc.?
7. Money Retrieval
- How many shards of money were found at Tina Bar?
- Where are they, currently, especially the larger ones in the 2-3-inch category?
- Did the FBI find part of DB Cooper’s briefcase at Tina Bar, as reported by PIO Dorwin Schreuder?
- Why was the money found in a highly compressed state?
- What kinds of follow-up were done along the Columbia River, i.e.: fishermen interviewed, other sites dug-up, etc.?
- What does the discovery of springtime diatoms on the money mean?
8. Richard McCoy
- What was he doing in Las Vegas on November 24–25, 1971?
- What was he doing there on November 2–3, 1971?
- How did he learn the details of hijacking an airplane?
- What was his relationship with “Dan Cooper?”
- Why does the Seattle FO accept McCoy’s alibi that he was home with family on Thanksgiving, refuting the findings from Salt Lake City FBI agents?
- How did he get that $6,000 in late 1971 that funded his family’s trip to North Carolina?
9. Radar Findings
- What did SAGE radar record the night of November 24, 1971?
- Why do the Seattle transcripts have over one-dozen redactions?
- Did the F-106s and the T-33 following Flight 305 have any radar findings of Cooper or his jump? If not, why not?
- Why did NORAD tell Major Dawson to “back off” the F-106s, and pull out the chaff?
10. Earl Cossey
- What was the true role of Earl Cossey in the Norjak investigation?
- Did he actually own the “back” parachutes delivered to the hijacker, as he claimed?
- Did Cossey influence the FBI’s perspective that Cooper was an inexperienced skydiver?
- Why did the FBI flip-flop on their assessment of Cooper’s skills?
- Why was Cossey murdered? Why is that crime still unsolved?
11. Care of Evidence
- Why weren’t pictures taken of the parachutes?
- Why weren’t pictures taken at Tina Bar of the shards, and the specific activities of the money retrieval, like the beach slope, the actual location, close-ups of shards buried at three-feet, etc.
11. Suspects: Unanswered Questions –
- Why was Robert Rackstraw dismissed as a suspect in 1979 after the FBI arrested him in Paris, France on his return to the United States from Iran.
- Did E. Howard Hunt, or someone like him, play a role in Norjak?
12. What was the full impact of the DB Cooper skyjacking
- Did it affect national politics?
- Did it enhance the efforts to federalize airline safety?
13. Would the FBI be willing to participate in a public debriefing of Norjak?
- Will the FBI send agents such as Larry Carr and Curtis Eng to CooperCon 2021 to anchor a panel discussion assessing the FBI’s investigation?
Lastly, why aren’t these questions enough to re-open the case? How can the FBI reasonably walk away from Norjak with this amount of outstanding doubt?
Then we always have the issue of a cover-up, of a federal conspiracy to keep the public knowing the truth of Norjak. Certainly, there have been numerous instances of sloppy police work, systemic deficiencies within the FBI, and problematic decision-making. But does this mean there is an actual attempt to prevent us from knowing the truth of DB Cooper?
I don’t know. I have no direct evidence that supports a cover up. All I have is circumstantial evidence that suggests Norjak has been compromised.
But besides these specific concerns is the failure of leadership. This issue has impacted the case in every dimension. At times, no one seemed to be in complete command of Norjak—certainly in the early stages of the investigation. Farrell was in charge of Seattle-based activities, Manning on the ground near Ariel, Mattson in Portland and later Himmelsbach; and then Campbell and his Las Vegas-based crew in Reno.
But why didn’t Charlie Farrell jump on a plane and fly to Reno to ensure the proper retrieval of evidence, thus minimizing the predictable bureaucratic turf battles that followed?
Additionally, Farrell and his team worked in secrecy. The public knows little of his work. Farrell is reported to have penned a 300-page account of his experiences in Norjak, and Geoffrey Gray says he has read it. But my efforts to obtain access to a copy have been met by resistance from the Farrell family.
Similarly, the Norjak case agent at the time of the money find, Ron Nichols, remains totally silent on the money find, shards, and documentation. More troubling, why didn’t Nichols jump in his car and drive the three hours to T-Bar to supervise the money recovery?
Nichols’ failures are coupled with the stonewalling from Himmelsbach on the money controversies, making the whole situation unacceptable.
Another example of poor supervision was the care given to the evidence stored in Seattle. Before being shipped to HQ in 2016, the main pieces were stored loosely in a cardboard box that looked like it once held knickknacks from someone's attic. Concerns over the chain of custody pepper Norjak as well, such as the clip-on tie being torn apart by the Citizen Sleuths. It appears they were able to review physical evidence without any FBI agent present, although Alan Stone refutes that assumption.
Nevertheless, these breaks in the chain of custody are serious concerns. The DZ’s 377, an attorney in the Bay Area, offers a cogent view of the matter:
The FBI has been amazingly cavalier about the handling of physical evidence (in Norjak). It’s not normal practice. As a defense lawyer, when I had my experts examine physical evidence or run lab tests the prosecution enforced strict protocols so that the custody chain was unbroken and fully documented and that contamination or alteration of evidence was prevented.
Even in minor cases this was how things were handled. I represented a ghetto bar owner who the cops hated. He was arrested for serving alcohol to a minor. It was a major hassle just to get a sample of the drink which was preserved. My lab had to sign for the sample and document its handling at every step. The prosecution wisely only gave my lab a portion of the sample so that they had a control if my findings were later to be disputed. My client got really lucky. My lab tested zero alcohol. When the police lab repeated their test, they found the same thing. Case dismissed.
It might be that the FBI has some undisclosed evidence that has been very carefully handled and that is highly probative in identifying Cooper, enough so that a conviction could be secured without any other evidence. Cigarette butts might fit this description. It just makes no sense that they would be ‘lost.’
Peterson, a highly qualified suspect, was ruled out on DNA. Maybe it wasn’t tie DNA but cigarette DNA, which would be more confidently linked to DB Cooper.
In addition, there was an uncanny passivity to the FBI’s work at times. Ralph Himmelsbach never interviewed Tina even though she moved to the Portland area after the skyjacking for medical treatment and then spent decades in Eugene, just two hours south. Is this a proper handling of a primary witness in a major case? More troubling, Himmelsbach’s book reveals—and Dorwin Schreuder confirms—that for much of the Norjak era the Portland FO had a reactionary stance to the investigation, and only responded to leads as they came in to the office. Similarly, Seattle agents, such as Bob Sale and Sid Rubin, have also indicated that the Cooper case was near-dormant in the Seattle FO between the money find in 1980 and the resurgence in the late 1990s.
Further, did silence on the details of the case really serve the investigation? Why didn’t a single FBI agent attend the DB Cooper Symposium in 2011 or 2013 or the CooperCons in 2018 and 2019? What did that avoidance achieve? What kind of investigatory integrity did that maintain?
At times, it appears that FBI agents don’t talk with one another, either, even when working on the same case. Galen has a telling story on this subject:
Seems like the NORJAK agents die by the vine, but DB Cooper lives on. The Bureau must hate that. No one ever hears from Carr since he left. He e-mailed me about six months after I started talking with Eng, but Eng wasn’t too enthused that I was still talking with Carr about the case. Led me to believe that the agents aren’t necessarily on the same page, and rather territorial of their own turf, even among other agents.
Part of this non-sharing with fellow agents was fostered by J. Edgar Hoover. As discussed previously, Hoover awarded cash bonuses to agents who busted tough cases, so field agents had an incentive not to share since it could cost them money. Plus, we have the pressures seeping from the mundane area of internal politics: promotions based upon performance, and assignments determined by one's status within the office.
As for my relationship with FBI agents, when I ask questions beyond their initial set story they balk. I call it the “One and Done” scenario. I get one good interview—usually a recitation of their well-rehearsed narrative—then, nothing. Follow-up phone calls and emails go unanswered. Thus, I strongly suspect that what I was told initially was a spin job, and they don’t want me to scratch beneath the surface.
More troubling, formal communications with the FBI become seriously strained in 2015 when I was informed the FBI had a new policy for communicating with journalists. Simply, the FBI stopped talking to anyone about Norjak unless the contact was specifically authorized. After years of exchanging increasingly opaque emails with PIO Ayn Dietrich-Williams, she finally stated the obvious on December 7, 2015:
The FBI’s media policy prohibits discussing ongoing investigations unless a release is specifically thought to have potential benefit to the investigation.
…I understand your continued interest in our investigation and apologize that I will not be able to share additional information to answer your questions.
Nevertheless, I have not abandoned all hope in the FBI, and I will be providing them with a “Special Edition” of this book, complete with phone numbers and contact information for all of the major figures of the case. At least then, the Bureau will have a comprehensive overview of the case for future investigators to consult.
Of course, they can call me anytime for assistance. Or they can join the DB Cooper Forum!
Is this a manifesto accusing the FBI .... of what?
"Of course, they can call me anytime for assistance. Or they can join the DB Cooper Forum!" ....... are you requesting a meeting with the Director of the FBI or the US Attorney General? That would be NEWS!
Bruce Smith VS The United States of America ? :rofl:
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I'm accusing the FBI of being a very large bureaucracy. As such, it has inherent deficiencies. I am merely pointing them our for remediation. After all, they closed the case saying they had investigated all known suspects and had examined all available evidence. Hence, they should be able to answer all the above questions.
But, I'll settle for a seat in a panel discussion at CooperCon with Larry Carr and Curtis Eng. I would also suggest to Eric that he feature Mud-Wrestling Contests between various Forum posters.
Wanna go at it with me in a mud pit, G? Smile. Might be fun. How about Eric facing off against Flyjack?
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Hi Bruce, Was Sheridan Peterson ruled out as a suspect by DNA? Eric Ulis has said that he wasn't.
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Hi Bruce, Was Sheridan Peterson ruled out as a suspect by DNA? Eric Ulis has said that he wasn't.
MEYDC, good catch in the article. The FBI never publicly cleared Sheridan because of DNA--or for any other reason--as they did with LD Cooper and Duane Weber. Bruce you should fix that comment.
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The FBI never publicly cleared Sheridan because of DNA--or for any other reason--as they did with LD Cooper and Duane Weber.
Hey Eric, i'm pretty new to the D.B Cooper case and am intrigued with Peterson's life. However, I haven't been able to find a clear answer yet to the question of Peterson's obvious lack of hair. What do you believe explains this imperfection with SP being Cooper?
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The FBI never publicly cleared Sheridan because of DNA--or for any other reason--as they did with LD Cooper and Duane Weber.
Hey Eric, i'm pretty new to the D.B Cooper case and am intrigued with Peterson's life. However, I haven't been able to find a clear answer yet to the question of Peterson's obvious lack of hair. What do you believe explains this imperfection with SP being Cooper?
Welcome to the case!
I have seen photos of Sheridan from the 1971 time period. His hair is receded and short. That said, I'm unclear what his hair would look like if he grew it out for a handful of months. I just don't know how close it would come to the original Bing Crosby sketch. However, a picture of Sheridan from 1962 is spot on.
Otherwise, he would have to have worn a toupee. I've looked into this before and referenced the fact that Sean Connery wore a toupee during his Bond films and that it was unnoticeable. Moreover, that men regularly wore toupees during the 1960's and 1970's.
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Hi Bruce, Was Sheridan Peterson ruled out as a suspect by DNA? Eric Ulis has said that he wasn't.
MEYDC, good catch in the article. The FBI never publicly cleared Sheridan because of DNA--or for any other reason--as they did with LD Cooper and Duane Weber. Bruce you should fix that comment.
I stand by my reporting. In my conversations with Mary Jean Fryar she was very clear with me that Petey's DNA was not a match for the FBI's samples. I know that is in direct conflict with what she has said to you, Eric.
As a result, I am reporting both statements in the 3rd Edition. It's not that I'm right or wrong - nor are you. We have received different information; hence, that's what I'm reporting.
As for the MN article, due to a formatting glitch the quote that Sheridan was ruled out by DNA is from Mark Metzler. The article doesn't make that clear. I'll work to make that clearer, but WP and their new editing functions are NOT making that easy.
Rest assured, though, those formatting glitches are not present in the 3rd Edition manuscript that I'm writing.
Yes, technically, Eric, you are correct. The FBI has not PUBLICLY stated that Sheridan is not a match. What MJF told me is that a colleague of hers at the SF Division told her off-the-record that Petey was not a match for the DNA sample they had on file. That doesn't exclude Petey as DBC, either. But that is what I was told by MJF. She also indicated to me the DNA findings meant Petey was not Cooper, in her mind.
Also, MJF was retired and out of the FBI when she was given this information, so acknowledging the receipt of confidential information under those circumstances might put her at risk, as does this posting.
But so it goes.
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Hi Bruce, Was Sheridan Peterson ruled out as a suspect by DNA? Eric Ulis has said that he wasn't.
MEYDC, good catch in the article. The FBI never publicly cleared Sheridan because of DNA--or for any other reason--as they did with LD Cooper and Duane Weber. Bruce you should fix that comment.
I stand by my reporting. In my conversations with Mary Jean Fryar she was very clear with me that Petey's DNA was not a match for the FBI's samples. I know that is in direct conflict with what she has said to you, Eric.
As a result, I am reporting both statements in the 3rd Edition. It's not that I'm right or wrong - nor are you. We have received different information; hence, that's what I'm reporting.
As for the MN article, due to a formatting glitch the quote that Sheridan was ruled out by DNA is from Mark Metzler. The article doesn't make that clear. I'll work to make that clearer, but WP and their new editing functions are NOT making that easy.
Rest assured, though, those formatting glitches are not present in the 3rd Edition manuscript that I'm writing.
Yes, technically, Eric, you are correct. The FBI has not PUBLICLY stated that Sheridan is not a match. What MJF told me is that a colleague of hers at the SF Division told her off-the-record that Petey was not a match for the DNA sample they had on file. That doesn't exclude Petey as DBC, either. But that is what I was told by MJF. She also indicated to me the DNA findings meant Petey was not Cooper, in her mind.
Also, MJF was retired and out of the FBI when she was given this information, so acknowledging the receipt of confidential information under those circumstances might put her at risk, as does this posting.
But so it goes.
I'm not sure what else to add to this other than to say that I have discussed this very issue with Mary Jean many times and she states unequivocally that she not only has no idea of the results, but, she also has no idea if the DNA was even compared. It was submitted from Santa Rosa RUC (Return Upon Completion). At that point, she's done.
Remember too, Sheridan's DNA was taken in 2003. It appears that the comparisons were made at Quantico sometime around 2006. Therefore, for anyone to know the results would necessitate a conversation after the testing was complete. Again, I do not believe this happened.
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Hi Bruce, Was Sheridan Peterson ruled out as a suspect by DNA? Eric Ulis has said that he wasn't.
MEYDC, good catch in the article. The FBI never publicly cleared Sheridan because of DNA--or for any other reason--as they did with LD Cooper and Duane Weber. Bruce you should fix that comment.
I stand by my reporting. In my conversations with Mary Jean Fryar she was very clear with me that Petey's DNA was not a match for the FBI's samples. I know that is in direct conflict with what she has said to you, Eric.
As a result, I am reporting both statements in the 3rd Edition. It's not that I'm right or wrong - nor are you. We have received different information; hence, that's what I'm reporting.
As for the MN article, due to a formatting glitch the quote that Sheridan was ruled out by DNA is from Mark Metzler. The article doesn't make that clear. I'll work to make that clearer, but WP and their new editing functions are NOT making that easy.
Rest assured, though, those formatting glitches are not present in the 3rd Edition manuscript that I'm writing.
Yes, technically, Eric, you are correct. The FBI has not PUBLICLY stated that Sheridan is not a match. What MJF told me is that a colleague of hers at the SF Division told her off-the-record that Petey was not a match for the DNA sample they had on file. That doesn't exclude Petey as DBC, either. But that is what I was told by MJF. She also indicated to me the DNA findings meant Petey was not Cooper, in her mind.
Also, MJF was retired and out of the FBI when she was given this information, so acknowledging the receipt of confidential information under those circumstances might put her at risk, as does this posting.
But so it goes.
I'm not sure what else to add to this other than to say that I have discussed this very issue with Mary Jean many times and she states unequivocally that she not only has no idea of the results, but, she also has no idea if the DNA was even compared. It was submitted from Santa Rosa RUC (Return Upon Completion). At that point, she's done.
Remember too, Sheridan's DNA was taken in 2003. It appears that the comparisons were made at Quantico sometime around 2006. Therefore, for anyone to know the results would necessitate a conversation after the testing was complete. Again, I do not believe this happened.
I have read a ton of 302s at this point, most related to suspects ... it appears in spite of low confidence in the prints they had from the plane, they went ahead and had Quantico do a ton of print matching, in case anything might surface as a match or even a partial match. All matches were negative. The 302s confirm that whole story. So the FBI was using what they had to the best of their ability. It's an endless saga of searches and processing people .... through the 1980s. By about 1986 people were surfacing with memos being passed around suggesting the case should be closed ... the Ingrams were living in Oklahoma by then desperate for money and pressing their claim for a reward ... it was a mess going nowhere except for a John Doe warrant that kept the case open.
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I'm not sure what else to add to this other than to say that I have discussed this very issue with Mary Jean many times and she states unequivocally that she not only has no idea of the results, but, she also has no idea if the DNA was even compared. It was submitted from Santa Rosa RUC (Return Upon Completion). At that point, she's done.
...
I don't doubt you, Eric, in the least. I'm merely stating what I was told, as best as I can remember it. Clearly, you were told something very different.
One reason for MJF's variations might be to protect herself from revealing information that she might not be entitled to know since she had retired from the FBI when she got the info on the DNA, as I recall, but that is complete speculation on my part.
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Not sure we can really compare someone to a Hollywood actor. they take hours sometimes in makeup. If I own a 1975 Gran Torino it doesn't mean I can do a 180 while parallel parking in between two cars.
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If Sheridan's DNA was analyzed and confirmed to be a match, why was no arrest made? Why was their no follow up?
If his DNA was taken and analyzed, but nothing was done, that would suggest a strong indication that there wasn't a match.
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If Sheridan's DNA was analyzed and confirmed to be a match, why was no arrest made? Why was their no follow up?
If his DNA was taken and analyzed, but nothing was done, that would suggest a strong indication that there wasn't a match.
The problem is that the FBI has a partial DNA profile. Sheridan may match the partial profile 100% but not be DB Cooper. Or he may match the partial 100% and be DB Cooper, but the DNA evidence may not be admissible in court.
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It's my understanding the DNA can rule someone out..I don't think publicly saying what the conclusions were can be used for guilt or innocence...
Prints on currency would also be tricky, even fresh prints since dozens would typically be found in such a small area. a good usable print is not easy to find.
Money can be fingerprinted. However, money circulates around and there can be many fingerprints on money. It would be a call the investigating officer would have to make. If they get 50 prints from one bill, and 50 different prints on the next, it would be tough to narrow down the suspect list.
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Cooper handed money to Tina.. she took it and claimed to return it. Now, Cooper's prints would likely be on that money. So, handing money to Tina was not smart and contradicts his perceived thoroughness.
It was Cooper's money? of course his prints would be found on any of it he touched prior to or after exiting the plane..plus dozens of other prints would be found on the money since it was in circulation prior to being stored at the bank..does't mean any good prints would be found or even able to link to him..
I notice a lot of people think more like today vs 1971..
You missed what I was saying as well Fly..it makes no difference touching the money..doesn't prove anything. the hijacking was a risk..
Cooper was concerned about things LEFT on the plane and not going with him. they catch him with the money and he's busted. the serial numbers will help link the money to him and not his prints..it's like worrying about prints on his glasses...if they accepted the money then possibly they could of got prints. possibly..the sharpest criminal makes mistakes.
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For those who desire yet another example of the fallibility of experts on occasion, look no further than today's Congressional Report on the 737 MAX. Boeing's engineers F'd up.
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Cooper offered Tina some of the ransom. does this imply Cooper was clumsy for getting his prints on the cash since he was so concerned about things left on the plane that had prints? has anyone even been linked this way? was it simply an oversight that Cooper missed. I don't think it points to anything.
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Cooper was " meticulous" to an extent. he left behind the drinking cup. it's another mistake he did and common with what a lot of criminal do. they make mistakes. I doubt touching the money even crossed his mind. I don't think I've ever said he was meticulous.
He was specific in asking for items back. that's a clear sign of wanting to cover his tracks. McCoy did a similar mistake by not getting back all the notes. today, one would worry about everything they did or touched. I just don't believe the argument of touching the money would be a factor. a lot of things are racing through a criminals mind. each will be different under pressure. they will ALL make mistakes even when trying to erase the trail...
Tina also made mistakes. she should of kept the cup and not thrown it away causing them to collect four cups vs the one he drank from..
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I am currently uploading a high rez photo from May of 1980. I will post the photo once I get it loaded and post it where it can be visible in high resolution for all to see...
Update...the photo isn't the greatest of all photo's for $35 but you can zoom in and see a waterline right up to the money spot..the road behind the money location is very clear. something I've had trouble explaining over the years. the file is 882 MB...
I am behind getting out of my house and will have to upload online when I get back. it takes too long for the process to complete.
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I will upload a screenshot for now..I will have the link in a couple minutes..
Here is the link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14cltNnttZfqeUeSakbr-AX8NJHwcu8lm/view?usp=sharing
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I will upload a screenshot for now..I will have the link in a couple minutes..
Here is the link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/14cltNnttZfqeUeSakbr-AX8NJHwcu8lm/view?usp=sharing
Money find spot is in the image below. It is not on a high water line. What it's on is seen in the other attached pic from Tom.
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The photo will need to be shown to someone who can verify what things are we see..it appears to be a waterline since the water would be soaking the beach for sometime while retreating to low tide..I'll leave open to speculation vs fact..the 1980 helicopter photo does show a line but nowhere near the location...
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The photo will need to be shown to someone who can verify what things are we see..it appears to be a waterline since the water would be soaking the beach for sometime while retreating to low tide..I'll leave open to speculation vs fact..the 1980 helicopter photo does show a line but nowhere near the location...
The discoloration is a little steeper slope leading into the river without vegetation. Within a couple of feet of the water's edge is the wet area from waves and slight changes in the river level. The money find spot resides on the "plateau"--for lack of a better word--where various debris and vegetation is more prominent.
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It's probably the high waterline...look south and you will see most of the temp shacks right on that line..
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I missed no point Fly..you group me in with those who claim he was meticulous. he left the cup he drank out of. that should of had prints to get him and it didn't. leaving the cup means nothing but giving Tina the money proves why he left the tie?
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It's probably the high waterline...look south and you will see most of the temp shacks right on that line..
Look at all of the footage and pics and you will see what I'm referring to. The money find spot and the tree it was near were not at the high water mark.
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I know where the money location is...I know a slope is there that could be caused by water...where do you think the high waterline is?
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I know where the money location is...I know a slope is there that could be caused by water...where do you think the high waterline is?
The regular water line fluctuates along the waterline a couple of feet...not 50 feet. You can see this wet area in a lot of the footage. Also, the digging and trenching at Tena Bar took place over at least a few days...did the river water ever rise and erase or fill in one single foot of any of these lines?
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where does 50 feet come in?
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where does 50 feet come in?
The distance from the money find spot to the water's edge under normal conditions.
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I don't think it was that far away..
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Can we all agree the dredge spoils from 1974 seem to still be visible in 1980?
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Here is Cat island in 1980...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1lscQ7UrMGQQRvaCSzTMtrf2g7-NrmgDu/view?usp=sharing
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I know that it has been established that money doesn’t float. However, what is the buoyancy of the chute packs? In other words, could a chute pack filled with money float? And if so, for how long?
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I know that it has been established that money doesn’t float. However, what is the buoyancy of the chute packs? In other words, could a chute pack filled with money float? And if so, for how long?
An unopened parachute is going to sink reasonably fast according to 377. On the other hand, one that has been opened and in some manner re-packed could have air pockets which would help it float, but not forever.
If the FBI Flight Path is correct, and DBC amazingly landed in the Columbia, then a host of other problems come to light. Specifically, the location of the jet at the time of the pressure bump--which occurred near 8:12--is way off. Also, everything--DBC body, parachutes, money bag, attache' case with bomb, etc--would have to have floated many miles and gone completely unnoticed which is a hard sell. Moreover, one then needs to explain how three separate packets of twenties manage to get free from their casing, stay together, and self-bury on Tena Bar 50 feet from the water's edge.
I cannot imagine a scenario that explains the money find without human intervention. I literally think it is impossible. Which leads me to conclude that DBC survived and walked out of wherever he landed, ultimately arriving at Tena Bar. As to the story behind all of this...this is where other factors have to be considered.
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I know that it has been established that money doesn’t float. However, what is the buoyancy of the chute packs? In other words, could a chute pack filled with money float? And if so, for how long?
An unopened parachute is going to sink reasonably fast according to 377. On the other hand, one that has been opened and in some manner re-packed could have air pockets which would help it float, but not forever.
A packed parachute would be buoyant and float for a little while, until it gets soaked with water. A factor would be how tightly the canopy fits in the container, i.e. how much air is trapped in the canopy. Bailout rigs are generally a bit loose, as they want to be flexible, comfortable for the wearer. If Cooper hits water with a packed rig, buoyancy is the least of his concerns, as he's dead. However, depending on the current, that would affect how far he drifts downriver before he sinks. If Cooper lands in the water under an open canopy... If there are no winds and the canopy comes down on top of him and he gets entangled in it, that's a problem and he likely drowns. If there's a slight breeze and the canopy lands beside him, that's his best scenario. If there are more winds and he's being drug across the water, that too is problematic. On that bailout rig, the canopy does not detach from the harness without tools. If there is a strong current, once the canopy settles into the water, he's again being drug, as in tension on the harness. Getting out of the harness in those situations would be difficult, compounded by whatever he has tied to himself. The bailout rig does not have the D-rings to properly attach the reserve. I can't see Cooper tying the reserve on with parachute lines and expecting that to be functional. Yes, it's a dummy and would not work anyway, but does he know that? So if he has the dummy reserve tied to himself, it's likely that he has repurposed the container to hold money, which is what the original question was about. There would be air in there, which would make it a bit buoyant, but that wouldn't last very long. Those containers are flaps that wrap around whatever's in there. They are not water/air tight seals, so whatever air is in there would likely bubble out of the corners fairly quickly. The question then is how buoyant the money might be vs. how quickly it soaks.
I know that was more than what was asked. The short answer is that the reserve container packed with money, there would be some buoyancy, but it wouldn't last long at all.
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I know that it has been established that money doesn’t float. However, what is the buoyancy of the chute packs? In other words, could a chute pack filled with money float? And if so, for how long?
An unopened parachute is going to sink reasonably fast according to 377. On the other hand, one that has been opened and in some manner re-packed could have air pockets which would help it float, but not forever.
A packed parachute would be buoyant and float for a little while, until it gets soaked with water. A factor would be how tightly the canopy fits in the container, i.e. how much air is trapped in the canopy. Bailout rigs are generally a bit loose, as they want to be flexible, comfortable for the wearer. If Cooper hits water with a packed rig, buoyancy is the least of his concerns, as he's dead. However, depending on the current, that would affect how far he drifts downriver before he sinks. If Cooper lands in the water under an open canopy... If there are no winds and the canopy comes down on top of him and he gets entangled in it, that's a problem and he likely drowns. If there's a slight breeze and the canopy lands beside him, that's his best scenario. If there are more winds and he's being drug across the water, that too is problematic. On that bailout rig, the canopy does not detach from the harness without tools. If there is a strong current, once the canopy settles into the water, he's again being drug, as in tension on the harness. Getting out of the harness in those situations would be difficult, compounded by whatever he has tied to himself. The bailout rig does not have the D-rings to properly attach the reserve. I can't see Cooper tying the reserve on with parachute lines and expecting that to be functional. Yes, it's a dummy and would not work anyway, but does he know that? So if he has the dummy reserve tied to himself, it's likely that he has repurposed the container to hold money, which is what the original question was about. There would be air in there, which would make it a bit buoyant, but that wouldn't last very long. Those containers are flaps that wrap around whatever's in there. They are not water/air tight seals, so whatever air is in there would likely bubble out of the corners fairly quickly. The question then is how buoyant the money might be vs. how quickly it soaks.
I know that was more than what was asked. The short answer is that the reserve container packed with money, there would be some buoyancy, but it wouldn't last long at all.
buoyancy is relative: bag of rags, box of rocks, dead body, harpooned whale, shot duck, golf clubs .... and so it goes! :chr2:
What a brilliant bit of nonsense. Buoyance is relative only in the sense of what the weight of the fluid the object displaces is relative to the object's weight. ::)
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Quiz: The Seattle office of the FBI issued monthly NORJAK status reports to Washington for years following the hijacking. Their report dated 2/5/76 stated "There are currently 810 suspects". How many of these suspects had been eliminated ? Keep in mind this was 4 years before the money find.
1. 147
2. 230
3. 780
4. 397
attached.
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What a piece of incomprehensible bloviating nonsense.
What I wrote?
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What a piece of incomprehensible bloviating nonsense.
What I wrote?
I think he was referring to the quote that was also attached to your comment..the comments have been removed.
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Well, I wasn't sure. At two sentences, R99's comment could hardly be considered 'bloviating', hah.
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Quiz: The Seattle office of the FBI issued monthly NORJAK status reports to Washington for years following the hijacking. Their report dated 2/5/76 stated "There are currently 810 suspects". How many of these suspects had been eliminated ? Keep in mind this was 4 years before the money find.
1. 147
2. 230
3. 780
4. 397
attached.
230 is my guess.
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Quiz: The Seattle office of the FBI issued monthly NORJAK status reports to Washington for years following the hijacking. Their report dated 2/5/76 stated "There are currently 810 suspects". How many of these suspects had been eliminated ? Keep in mind this was 4 years before the money find.
1. 147
2. 230
3. 780
4. 397
attached.
230 is my guess.
The answer is 780. ...................... sorry for the interruption ................... back to regular programming. Blevins et all.
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What a piece of incomprehensible bloviating nonsense.
What I wrote?
Had nothing to do with you - had to do with R99's use of the word "Buoyance" ! Go search for this obscure word on Google and see what you get. Standard usage is the word "buoyancy".
So this had nothing to do with you but with R99's commentary. I should have just left well enough alone. I will just stay in my cave from now on. Good luck
Buoyance. What is bouyance?
bouyance has a meaning in Soil Science terminology / glossary / dictionary is:
The upward force acting on a particle because it is suspended in water.
Buoyance is not standard usage. See Buoyancy.
PLEASE DONT REMOVE THESE COMMENTS
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"Buoyance" ! Go search for this obscure word on Google and see what you get.
Buoyance. What is bouyance?
A glamorous pop star lounging about her pool?
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What a piece of incomprehensible bloviating nonsense.
What I wrote?
Had nothing to do with you - had to do with R99's use of the word "Buoyance" ! Go search for this obscure word on Google and see what you get. Standard usage is the word "buoyancy".
So this had nothing to do with you but with R99's commentary. I should have just left well enough alone. I will just stay in my cave from now on. Good luck
Buoyance. What is bouyance?
bouyance has a meaning in Soil Science terminology / glossary / dictionary is:
The upward force acting on a particle because it is suspended in water.
Buoyance is not standard usage. See Buoyancy.
PLEASE DONT REMOVE THESE COMMENTS
Georger, I'll haul my computer off to the shop tomorrow to get my spell checker repaired. Thanks for the heads up. ::)
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What a piece of incomprehensible bloviating nonsense.
What I wrote?
Had nothing to do with you - had to do with R99's use of the word "Buoyance" ! Go search for this obscure word on Google and see what you get. Standard usage is the word "buoyancy".
So this had nothing to do with you but with R99's commentary. I should have just left well enough alone. I will just stay in my cave from now on. Good luck
Buoyance. What is bouyance?
bouyance has a meaning in Soil Science terminology / glossary / dictionary is:
The upward force acting on a particle because it is suspended in water.
Buoyance is not standard usage. See Buoyancy.
PLEASE DONT REMOVE THESE COMMENTS
Georger, I'll haul my computer off to the shop tomorrow to get my spell checker repaired. Thanks for the heads up. ::)
One etymology traces Buoyance (FR) back to c1723 meaning 'light hearted' 'spirited' .... somewhere maybe around 1850 it took on a technical meaning perhaps in relation to heat exchange theory (Kirchhoff) ? ... Today its an archaic form of 'buoyancy'. ........... but this is all wasted. I just havent seen that word used formally in a very long time. It struck me as odd and arcane. Use whatever word you want. Your computer is fine as you very well know.
** Examples of buoyance in a Sentence
Recent Examples on the Web: But there’s an abundance of buoyance in the music, too. — BostonGlobe.com, "The first song recorded in the bossa nova style is usually credited as “Chega de Saudade.” Composed by Antonio Carlos Jobim with lyrics by Vinicius de Moraes, the title translates roughly from the Portuguese as “No More Longing.”," 17 Oct. 2019 Cartoon characters’ rubberiness [sic], their jazziness, their cheerful buoyance vs idleness, all chimed with popular images of African Americans, already embodied in minstrel shows. — John Canemaker, WSJ, "Book Review: Building a Better Mouse," 18 Jan. 2019
These example sentences are selected automatically from various online news sources to reflect current usage of the word 'buoyance.' Views expressed in the examples do not represent the opinion of Merriam-Webster or its editors. Send us feedback.
First Known Use of buoyance (FR)
1723, in the meaning defined above: light hearted, spirited, bouncy
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Reminds me of a mental debate I'm having with myself over abundant vs. abundance. I guess one is a noun and the other an adjective.
I'm also having trouble reconciling that the plural of tomato is tomatoes. It just doesn't look right. Anyone else having that issue?
BTW: 780 suspects cleared sounds about right, leaving 30 that were worthy of a deeper look.
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Reminds me of a mental debate I'm having with myself over abundant vs. abundance. I guess one is a noun and the other an adjective.
I'm also having trouble reconciling that the plural of tomato is tomatoes. It just doesn't look right. Anyone else having that issue?
BTW: 780 suspects cleared sounds about right, leaving 30 that were worthy of a deeper look.
Reasons for elimination:
1.Alibi. Subject unavailable to have conducted crime.
2. Failed to match description in some obvious way. Mistaken identity.
3. Prints, forensics.
4. Hoax, false accusation.
5. Lack of information – information unavailable. Pending …
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Two unrelated questions:
1. Where does the belief that the Tena Bar money was found perfectly stacked on top of one another? Does Ingram state this? Is this the language used in the 302s?
2. What evidence is there that the FBI actually investigated missing persons? How thorough was their investigation? How far back did they go, and what areas were searched?
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I don't think it does say they were perfectly stacked..look on Tom's site he shows how the money was believed to have been found if I'm not mistaken...https://citizensleuths.com/moneyanalysis.html
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Carr speaks about the missing person angle..we even looked.
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You can see how the bills don't line up..they are displaced in the stacks..
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Thanks, Shutter. Can you tell me how you searched? Which databases were used?
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Two unrelated questions:
1. Where does the belief that the Tena Bar money was found perfectly stacked on top of one another? Does Ingram state this? Is this the language used in the 302s?
2. What evidence is there that the FBI actually investigated missing persons? How thorough was their investigation? How far back did they go, and what areas were searched?
Have posted this 1000 times so here is 1001 - the Ingrams said the bills came out in "groups" Nothing about alignment. No 302 I have seen addresses this issue.
Many 302s that document missing people being investigated.
The belief or claim that the Tena Bar money was found perfectly stacked on top of one another, is propaganda peddled by whomever says that. Its idealistic nonsense. The Ingrams say they took the "groups of money" they pulled out of ground home in a sandwich bag. Another FBI document states 'they pulled out three bundles of money ...." Another document states: "was in a parcel barely held together by decomposed rubber bands, which crumbled and fell away upon being handled." The Ingrams presented a sandwich bag with groups of money they found. These groups of $20s were s spread out on a table for the news media to see. See photo below -
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Two unrelated questions:
1. Where does the belief that the Tena Bar money was found perfectly stacked on top of one another? Does Ingram state this? Is this the language used in the 302s?
2. What evidence is there that the FBI actually investigated missing persons? How thorough was their investigation? How far back did they go, and what areas were searched?
Here is one 302 that addresses searching for a missing person - took all of two minutes to find a missing person report- there are many hundreds if not thousands of similar 302s that document searching for missing persons! Start reading 302s!
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Ingram woes continue following money find - the media gave liberal coverage of the Ingram family following their discovery - the Ingrams took to radio stations lobbying for a reward "for Bryan".
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Not so concerned about names, but how investigators got the names.
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Not so concerned about names, but how investigators got the names.
Unusually tips from public or law enforcement -
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What I mean is, I assume that after the hijacking, the FBI combed missing persons reports from around the country. Did they use their own database? Were there other avenues to investigate regarding missing persons? Do they continue to follow up on missing persons from back then?
I recently ran across a guy named Roger Carlson whose car was found abandoned near the Golden Gate Bridge in 1970, but wasn't officially reported as missing until 2008 - mostly because was Native American.
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Have found many files investigating one: Robert Wesley Jones. Came to the FBI's attention in the Cooper case in 1978!
Who is Robert Wesley Jones ? He is Robert Wesley Rackstraw!
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Robert Wesley Jones aka Robert Wesley Rackstraw's finger prints were compared to the prints on file in NORJACK - Rackstraw was eliminated as a suspect in NORJAK on the basis of finger prints not matching, and other factors! March 1978.
Palm prints were obtained and forward later [D.B. Cooper Part 40 of 40-386] and also failed a match. Rackstraw was eliminated. Only to be resurrected as a prominent suspect by Tom Colbert in the 2000s.
There are 60+ files on Rackstraw in this Part alone dating back to 1978, so no one can claim he wasn't investigated!
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Acting Director, L Patrick Gray, upgrades Cooper case. 9/15/72 Following a review of the case and no tangible results.
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Fingerprints
Does anyone know if the FBI actually has fingerprints from DB Cooper that are reliable, and that the Bureau has confidence in?
If so, how many? Can you tell me anything more about them, such as the location from where the print was taken, etc.
I've come to realize I need to develop a whole new section on the fingerprint issue for the third edition, just like the DNA chapter.
There seems to be so much dissonance about the fingerprints. Calame and Rhodes say the Bureau got 11 sets of prints and they were all useless, as a 302 posted recently indicates.
Then we have another 302 that says Rackstraw was dismissed due to a "not a match" to fingerprints on file.
I remember Larry Carr posting that there were 66 sets of fingerprints, and someone else saying there were 77 sets.
I'm really confused. Any help anyone can provide is most welcome. Thanks
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Fingerprints
Does anyone know if the FBI actually has fingerprints from DB Cooper that are reliable, and that the Bureau has confidence in?
If so, how many? Can you tell me anything more about them, such as the location from where the print was taken, etc.
I've come to realize I need to develop a whole new section on the fingerprint issue for the third edition, just like the DNA chapter.
There seems to be so much dissonance about the fingerprints. Calame and Rhodes say the Bureau got 11 sets of prints and they were all useless, as a 302 posted recently indicates.
Then we have another 302 that says Rackstraw was dismissed due to a "not a match" to fingerprints on file.
I remember Larry Carr posting that there were 66 sets of fingerprints, and someone else saying there were 77 sets.
I'm really confused. Any help anyone can provide is most welcome. Thanks
If my memory serves me correctly there is something in the FBI files that references 66 prints or something close to that number.
The $64,000 question is "How does the FBI know whether any of these prints are or are not Cooper's?" The short answer is, I don't know and I'm not sure that they really know. That said, by definition the FBI cannot rule out anyone because of fingerprints if they can't confirm Cooper's prints to begin with.
If I had to hazard a guess, I think it is unlikely that the FBI has Cooper's prints. It does appear that Cooper wiped certain areas down, and of course we all know how anal Cooper was about leaving any evidence behind, the tie notwithstanding.
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Read the FBI docs guys... The FBI had one really good palm print from the chair Cooper was sitting. It was the primary print used to eliminate suspects since the FBI believed only Cooper could have left it. It's why they worked so hard to get palm prints from suspects.
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Read the FBI docs guys... The FBI had one really good palm print from the chair Cooper was sitting. It was the primary print used to eliminate suspects since the FBI believed only Cooper could have left it. It's why they worked so hard to get palm prints from suspects.
Agree - because the 302s confirm what you say. The palm print was central for most 'print' eliminations. In fact, the 302s document by 1973 'prints' and 'palm prints' were being asked of all suspects where possible, and being processed by two different Lab sections: Latent Print Section vs Palm Print Section, and the process had even been "automated" due to the large number of of suspect comparisons being processed.! Reports come back from these two different lab sections within the Latent Print Section to Seattle. There are boxes on these reports for Latent Prints vs Palm Prints. Andrade is correct and 302s confirm when he says:
"The FBI had one really good palm print from the chair Cooper was sitting. It was the primary print used to eliminate suspects since the FBI believed only Cooper could have left it. It's why they worked so hard to get palm prints from suspects."
Numbers vary. 50+ SPECIMENS were collected from the plane and objects in the plane - several palm prints, hand print smudges, finger prints, partial finger prints, print smudges, hairs, etc. A canvas of all 302s related to these matters is pending. Its safe to say the core evidence used for comparisons consisted of at least 5 finger prints, 1 palm print, two hair fibres, and several other specimens ... and as letters came in after the hijacking viable prints were lifted from these letters and envelopes and compared to the Latent Print core evidence. The FBI Latent Print Section had a full set of prints for all crew members and others associated with the case. The Lab was as thorough as possible in its examinations.
Two Lab reports of interest - 1971.
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Read the FBI docs guys... The FBI had one really good palm print from the chair Cooper was sitting. It was the primary print used to eliminate suspects since the FBI believed only Cooper could have left it. It's why they worked so hard to get palm prints from suspects.
Agree - because the 302s confirm what you say. The palm print was central for most 'print' eliminations. In fact, the 302s document by 1973 'prints' and 'palm prints' were being asked of all suspects where possible, and being processed by two different Lab sections: Latent Print Section vs Palm Print Section, and the process had even been "automated" due to the large number of of suspect comparisons being processed.! Reports come back from these two different lab sections within the Latent Print Section to Seattle. There are boxes on these reports for Latent Prints vs Palm Prints. Andrade is correct and 302s confirm when he says:
"The FBI had one really good palm print from the chair Cooper was sitting. It was the primary print used to eliminate suspects since the FBI believed only Cooper could have left it. It's why they worked so hard to get palm prints from suspects."
Numbers vary. 50+ SPECIMENS were collected from the plane and objects in the plane - several palm prints, hand print smudges, finger prints, partial finger prints, print smudges, hairs, etc. A canvas of all 302s related to these matters is pending. Its safe to say the core evidence used for comparisons consisted of at least 5 finger prints, 1 palm print, two hair fibres, and several other specimens ... and as letters came in after the hijacking viable prints were lifted from these letters and envelopes and compared to the Latent Print core evidence. The FBI Latent Print Section had a full set of prints for all crew members and others associated with the case. The Lab was as thorough as possible in its examinations.
Why then did the FBI show up at Sheridan Peterson's door in 2003 and ask only for DNA...no palm prints?
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Read the FBI docs guys... The FBI had one really good palm print from the chair Cooper was sitting. It was the primary print used to eliminate suspects since the FBI believed only Cooper could have left it. It's why they worked so hard to get palm prints from suspects.
Agree - because the 302s confirm what you say. The palm print was central for most 'print' eliminations. In fact, the 302s document by 1973 'prints' and 'palm prints' were being asked of all suspects where possible, and being processed by two different Lab sections: Latent Print Section vs Palm Print Section, and the process had even been "automated" due to the large number of of suspect comparisons being processed.! Reports come back from these two different lab sections within the Latent Print Section to Seattle. There are boxes on these reports for Latent Prints vs Palm Prints. Andrade is correct and 302s confirm when he says:
"The FBI had one really good palm print from the chair Cooper was sitting. It was the primary print used to eliminate suspects since the FBI believed only Cooper could have left it. It's why they worked so hard to get palm prints from suspects."
Numbers vary. 50+ SPECIMENS were collected from the plane and objects in the plane - several palm prints, hand print smudges, finger prints, partial finger prints, print smudges, hairs, etc. A canvas of all 302s related to these matters is pending. Its safe to say the core evidence used for comparisons consisted of at least 5 finger prints, 1 palm print, two hair fibres, and several other specimens ... and as letters came in after the hijacking viable prints were lifted from these letters and envelopes and compared to the Latent Print core evidence. The FBI Latent Print Section had a full set of prints for all crew members and others associated with the case. The Lab was as thorough as possible in its examinations.
Why then did the FBI show up at Sheridan Peterson's door in 2003 and ask only for DNA...no palm prints?
... because zebra have stripes?
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It's very simple, the fact Sheridan was even willing to let the FBI collect his DNA was proof enough that he wasn't Cooper. Sheridan still has something to lose, and had no reason to cooperate with the FBI.
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It's very simple, the fact Sheridan was even willing to let the FBI collect his DNA was proof enough that he wasn't Cooper. Sheridan still has something to lose, and had no reason to cooperate with the FBI.
This is just not true.
There have been many examples of criminals volunteering DNA knowing full well they'll be busted. Specifically, we had a case in Phoenix a couple of years ago where a worker at a nursing home impregnated a woman who had long-been in a coma and ended up giving birth. The guy volunteered a DNA sample and a couple of days later was in jail.
Also, I spoke with Sheridan personally about this and he told me that he thought that if he didn't agree to give the DNA that he would be taken into custody on the spot.
Moreover, it still doesn't answer why the FBI didn't ask for his palm print.
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Guess we'll just have to wait for another round of FOIA requests to get the information the FBI has on Sheridan.
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Guess we'll just have to wait for another round of FOIA requests to get the information the FBI has on Sheridan.
Unfortunately the FOIA files will only go through May 1992. In Sheridan's case all of the older files have already been released. The 2003 files we will not get. That said, there are some options.
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Guess we'll just have to wait for another round of FOIA requests to get the information the FBI has on Sheridan.
;) There are no FOIA's for the period Ulis is talking about! FOIA's go up to about 1980 .... Sheridan was finally approached by the Feds in what? 2000s?
Between 1971 and 2010 the FBI Lab not only changed locations (Quantico came into play), the old Lab socalled at Washington also split into numerous new divisions not to mention a total revolution in technologies and services. Automation wherever possible sped up turnaround. The Latent Print Section took advantage of that evolution as software was developed. By around 1989 IDT and others began developing and supplying the first generation of dna kits to Quantico etc ....
By the time Sheridan is tested the Lab and its evidence base has changed completely. In the 70s the one good palm print was central and 302s document that. By the 2000s the evidence set has changed. Ive never seen a 302 from 1970-80 with Sheridan's name on it, or any reference to Sheridan in spite of his Boeing connections socalled ... at least so far.!
If Ulis has an old 302 with Sheridan's name on it, let him produce it! :chr2:
Sheridan Peterson is not DB Cooper in any event, no more than Etic Ulis himself is! :rofl:
BTW, Blevins' old contention that Boeing employees were not investigated, is total bunk - laughable baloney! There are hundreds of 302s documenting Boeing employees being investigated, one at a time .... etc.
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Guess we'll just have to wait for another round of FOIA requests to get the information the FBI has on Sheridan.
;) There are no FOIA's for the period Ulis is talking about! FOIA's go up to about 1980 .... Sheridan was finally approached by the Feds in what? 2000s?
Between 1971 and 2010 the FBI Lab not only changed locations (Quantico came into play), the old Lab socalled at Washington also split into numerous new divisions not to mention a total revolution in technologies and services. Automation wherever possible sped up turnaround. The Latent Print Section took advantage of that evolution as software was developed. By around 1989 IDT was supplying the first generation of dna kits to Quantico etc ....
By the time Sheridan is tested the Lab and its evidence base has changed completely. In the 70s the one good palm print was central and 302s document that. By the 2000s the evidence set has changed. Ive never seen a 302 from 1970-80 with Sheridan's name on it, or any reference to Sheridan ... at least so far.!
If Ulis has an old 302 with Sheridan's name on it, let him produce it! :chr2:
Sheridan Peterson is not DB Cooper in any event, no more than Etic Ulis himself is! :rofl:
BTW, Blevins' old contention that Boeing employees were not investigated, is total bunk - laughable baloney! There are hundreds of 302s documenting Boeing employees being investigated, one at a time .... etc.
There are several FBI files related to Sheridan Peterson if one cares to look.
Here's a clue:
They start with a memo dated eight days after the skyjacking which can be found in File 12, Pages 122-125.
Cheers!
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Blevins will say anything. the same for looking at employee's. they looked in several locations..Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis etc. I even showed him one of the documents it just doesn't matter to some of these people. they will speak for the FBI and who ever gets in there way...
Peterson's files can be located. especially the one with his picture..
Georger, do you recall the word "click"..STOP insulting members on this forum..DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
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I have files in the vault surrounding the fingerprints..don't think I have them all but good info..
http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
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Guess we'll just have to wait for another round of FOIA requests to get the information the FBI has on Sheridan.
;) There are no FOIA's for the period Ulis is talking about! FOIA's go up to about 1980 .... Sheridan was finally approached by the Feds in what? 2000s?
Between 1971 and 2010 the FBI Lab not only changed locations (Quantico came into play), the old Lab socalled at Washington also split into numerous new divisions not to mention a total revolution in technologies and services. Automation wherever possible sped up turnaround. The Latent Print Section took advantage of that evolution as software was developed. By around 1989 IDT was supplying the first generation of dna kits to Quantico etc ....
By the time Sheridan is tested the Lab and its evidence base has changed completely. In the 70s the one good palm print was central and 302s document that. By the 2000s the evidence set has changed. Ive never seen a 302 from 1970-80 with Sheridan's name on it, or any reference to Sheridan ... at least so far.!
If Ulis has an old 302 with Sheridan's name on it, let him produce it! :chr2:
Sheridan Peterson is not DB Cooper in any event, no more than Etic Ulis himself is! :rofl:
BTW, Blevins' old contention that Boeing employees were not investigated, is total bunk - laughable baloney! There are hundreds of 302s documenting Boeing employees being investigated, one at a time .... etc.
There are several FBI files related to Sheridan Peterson if one cares to look.
Here's a clue:
They start with a memo dated eight days after the skyjacking which can be found in File 12, Pages 122-125.
Cheers!
Until you or someone posts it - it does not exist. There are many files referencing Boeing searches - I dont recall any tagged for Peterson. Its possible I missed it. Its also possible no such file exists. Until you or someone posts it - it does not exist. Maybe FLYJACK or Blevins will find it and post it ? ::)
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Blevins will say anything. the same for looking at employee's. they looked in several locations..Portland, Seattle, Minneapolis etc. I even showed him one of the documents it just doesn't matter to some of these people. they will speak for the FBI and who ever gets in there way...
Peterson's files can be located. especially the one with his picture..
Georger, do you recall the word "click"..STOP insulting members on this forum..DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
So there is an FBI 302 with Peterson's picture in it ?
Peterson's files? What Peterson files? Where?
Shutter, have you seen an FBI 302 with Peterson's name or photo on it?
This hardly falls on my shoulders - others would like to see what Ulis is talking about also! It's EU's claim, among many claims he has made. The burden isn;t mine to prove or disprove. I could care less! :D
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Fingerprints
Does anyone know if the FBI actually has fingerprints from DB Cooper that are reliable, and that the Bureau has confidence in?
If so, how many? Can you tell me anything more about them, such as the location from where the print was taken, etc.
I've come to realize I need to develop a whole new section on the fingerprint issue for the third edition, just like the DNA chapter.
There seems to be so much dissonance about the fingerprints. Calame and Rhodes say the Bureau got 11 sets of prints and they were all useless, as a 302 posted recently indicates.
Then we have another 302 that says Rackstraw was dismissed due to a "not a match" to fingerprints on file.
I remember Larry Carr posting that there were 66 sets of fingerprints, and someone else saying there were 77 sets.
I'm really confused. Any help anyone can provide is most welcome. Thanks
Ive come back to your original post because yours above sounds like repeats of snippets from 302s found in Shutter's Vault under Fingerprints ? Is that where you got your info above? Where did Shutter get his snippets? From Gray? All of the 302s Shutter's snippets come from are now available in their full form, in the FBI FOIA releases. So Shutter's snippets are obsolete, and confusing as you say. They lack continuity... and context.
One reason these snippets in Shutter's vault are not compatible is because they only hint at a fuller story which only complete sequences of 302s can begin to tell. It's like 'cliff notes' vs. a fuller text.
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I didn't get the "snippets" from anyone. I put things in a file as they are found looking through the 302's to try an organize thing vs searching them out. I can't help the fact that some files are only part of the story. we only have part of the story to begin with.
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This hardly falls on my shoulders - others would like to see what Ulis is talking about also! It's EU's claim, among many claims he has made. The burden isn;t mine to prove or disprove. I could care less!
It's pretty simply. if you have concerns about something posted you ask them to supply the document/article in reference to whatever the subject is they posted. the 302's surrounding Peterson have been posted on this site. I don't know where they are in the 302's since I had no reason to keep them. Eric is not going to respond when you attack or demand.
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Eric is not going to respond when you attack or demand.
Yeah that pretty much sums it up. I'm too old for schoolyard shit.
That said, I already noted where in File 12 that the initial Sheridan Peterson report can be found--it's a memo with supplemental items and does include a picture along with his name not-redacted. There are also several other files that I'm always willing to provide to people who reach out to me.
Like Tom Kaye and Bruce Smith, I receive a fair number of messages--email and otherwise--asking me to consider a suspect or a theory. I am always willing to give someone the floor and to give my thoughts. The common thread among all of these people is that they approach me civilly which affords the opportunity to discuss, or perhaps even debate, the issue.
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FOIA pdfs come as "Parts". The last issued PART was PART 51 ... so far as I know.
File 12 could be anywhere. In any PART. "File 12" is meaningless unless accompanied by the PART its in.
This is NOT personal with me. It may be personal to others or some, but its not personal with me. It's just the way the world works! Claims require evidence. I didn't make up that rule. The world evolved for 5000 years to set that standard in place, from early Sumeria to today. Through the Middle Ages to today. Rules of evidence and protocols. Its not personal. Its just the way things are done in a world!
Let's start where Blevins began this years ago, when he claimed 'no Boeing suspects were investigated' in reference to KC. That seemed doubtful at the time and I challenged him on that and I got my headed handed to me on DZ for challenging Blevins! Today I have many 302s documenting Boeing employees were investigated, not just by the FBI but also by the FAA, Boeing itself, etc. I have a whole pile of 302s documenting this. Except in a few cases there arent any Boeing employee names mentioned - all names have been redacted. And there are no pictures of anyone on anything. I guess "file 12" must be somewhere among all of these files, in some Part-number.
Thanks! ;)
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Fingerprints, continued:
A couple of things:
1. Snippets. Yup, that's what I've gotten over the years - a little here and a little there. Mostly from books, like Calame and Rhodes, or the DZ and Ckret, etc. And that is what ended up in my book - snippets discussed here and there. Now, I'm endeavoring to gather all the fingerprint information together in one chapter, and come to an understanding of what the FBI has and doesn't have.
Thanks to many of the posters here - including Marty, Nat, Shut, Galen, FJ, 377 - I now know that the FBI has eight fingerprints that they feel confident are DB Cooper's. One of the eight is a palm print, apparently, although it may be a partial palm print. Others are "finger" fingerprints, and include at least one good one from a flight magazine that the FBI apparently collected, although Calame and Rhodes say the Reno team failed to take them.
Hence, this leads to a second question:
2. If the FBI had DBC's prints, how come they weren't used, especially with suspects who had military records, such as Sheridan Peterson and Robert Rackstraw? To my thinking, the FBI could have compared their DBC fingerprints with the military's on Petey and Airborne Bob and determined in-house whether these guys were DBC or not. As a result, what was the REAL reason Nicole Devereaux and Mary Jean Fryar went a'knocking on Petey's door, and why did the FBI intercept Bobby in Paris on his way back from Iran in 1979? Further, why did the FBI say they ruled out Bob because the prints they got, presumably in Paris in '79, didn't match the eight DBC prints on file. Whaddaya think we got here? A lazy FBI agent who wanted to make work for himself, or a spin job to cover up the real reason for the Paris snatch?
Colbert certainly smells a rat, and that means money and Good TV in Hollywood Land. And Eric has a few more kernels to sprinkle atop Mount Pete, too.
BTW, an interesting snippet: Tom Colbert has reportedly spent $250,000 of his own money on his Cooper Quest. Whew...
Lastly, the fingerprint issues make me wonder why the FBI has seemed so fixated on DNA, especially since they don't have Cooper's full profile.
Or do they.... ?
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I would suspect the prints can't be 100% proven to be Coopers since they can't match them to anything at the time. they were narrowed down to probably being his prints. it appears they lean more towards the DNA..
The same can be asked about checking suspects. why not go straight to the DNA vs going down rabbit holes..
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I would suspect the prints can't be 100% proven to be Coopers since they can't match them to anything at the time. they were narrowed down to probably being his prints. it appears they lean more towards the DNA..
The same can be asked about checking suspects. why not go straight to the DNA vs going down rabbit holes..
The reality is that fingerprints are just as powerful as DNA in this case. Meaning, if someone matches the fingerprints from the jet then they know with absolute certainty that they were on the jet. That's case closed.
I'm just wondering what the truth is about the fingerprints because they did not take Sheridan's fingerprints in 2003, just his DNA.
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Correct, proof you were on the plane doesn't mean you were DB Cooper..the DNA came from his tie that is part of the case and what Cooper was wearing. I doubt there is any kind of cover up or reason why they do things that we don't always agree with.
I still believe the DNA will overpower any of the known evidence. all of it can be argued in court. matching the prints and DNA would be the best evidence.
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i'm new to the DBC forum so hello fellow Cooperites
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Fingerprints, continued:
A couple of things:
1. Snippets. Yup, that's what I've gotten over the years - a little here and a little there. Mostly from books, like Calame and Rhodes, or the DZ and Ckret, etc. And that is what ended up in my book - snippets discussed here and there. Now, I'm endeavoring to gather all the fingerprint information together in one chapter, and come to an understanding of what the FBI has and doesn't have.
Thanks to many of the posters here - including Marty, Nat, Shut, Galen, FJ, 377 - I now know that the FBI has eight fingerprints that they feel confident are DB Cooper's. One of the eight is a palm print, apparently, although it may be a partial palm print. Others are "finger" fingerprints, and include at least one good one from a flight magazine that the FBI apparently collected, although Calame and Rhodes say the Reno team failed to take them.
Hence, this leads to a second question:
2. If the FBI had DBC's prints, how come they weren't used, especially with suspects who had military records, such as Sheridan Peterson and Robert Rackstraw? To my thinking, the FBI could have compared their DBC fingerprints with the military's on Petey and Airborne Bob and determined in-house whether these guys were DBC or not. As a result, what was the REAL reason Nicole Devereaux and Mary Jean Fryar went a'knocking on Petey's door, and why did the FBI intercept Bobby in Paris on his way back from Iran in 1979? Further, why did the FBI say they ruled out Bob because the prints they got, presumably in Paris in '79, didn't match the eight DBC prints on file. Whaddaya think we got here? A lazy FBI agent who wanted to make work for himself, or a spin job to cover up the real reason for the Paris snatch?
Colbert certainly smells a rat, and that means money and Good TV in Hollywood Land. And Eric has a few more kernels to sprinkle atop Mount Pete, too.
BTW, an interesting snippet: Tom Colbert has reportedly spent $250,000 of his own money on his Cooper Quest. Whew...
Lastly, the fingerprint issues make me wonder why the FBI has seemed so fixated on DNA, especially since they don't have Cooper's full profile.
Or do they.... ?
Add this 302 below to your confusion. Partial prints! "Norjak partials currently on file..."
Where do you get the idea prints werent being compared with military prints of suspects? Thats a false accusation. They were when available. Dozens of 302s document that. Until the govt document center at (St Louis ?) burned down - there are 302s about that and what recourse the FBI had for getting military prints after that! You cite two examples and say: Lazy FBI agents .... a spin job ?
I also have received mail. About Peterson's 302 or should I say his 'newspaper article' pasted on a 302 page ? The author says "Peterson's name is even redacted so there is no way to tell who they are talking about. It does not name Peterson." Another writes: "I have also seen Boeing references in the 302s but few names and not Peterson". ... But now is not the time or place.
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i'm new to the DBC forum so hello fellow Cooperites
Welcome and hold on tight...
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Fingerprints, continued:
A couple of things:
1. Snippets. Yup, that's what I've gotten over the years - a little here and a little there. Mostly from books, like Calame and Rhodes, or the DZ and Ckret, etc. And that is what ended up in my book - snippets discussed here and there. Now, I'm endeavoring to gather all the fingerprint information together in one chapter, and come to an understanding of what the FBI has and doesn't have.
Thanks to many of the posters here - including Marty, Nat, Shut, Galen, FJ, 377 - I now know that the FBI has eight fingerprints that they feel confident are DB Cooper's. One of the eight is a palm print, apparently, although it may be a partial palm print. Others are "finger" fingerprints, and include at least one good one from a flight magazine that the FBI apparently collected, although Calame and Rhodes say the Reno team failed to take them.
Hence, this leads to a second question:
2. If the FBI had DBC's prints, how come they weren't used, especially with suspects who had military records, such as Sheridan Peterson and Robert Rackstraw? To my thinking, the FBI could have compared their DBC fingerprints with the military's on Petey and Airborne Bob and determined in-house whether these guys were DBC or not. As a result, what was the REAL reason Nicole Devereaux and Mary Jean Fryar went a'knocking on Petey's door, and why did the FBI intercept Bobby in Paris on his way back from Iran in 1979? Further, why did the FBI say they ruled out Bob because the prints they got, presumably in Paris in '79, didn't match the eight DBC prints on file. Whaddaya think we got here? A lazy FBI agent who wanted to make work for himself, or a spin job to cover up the real reason for the Paris snatch?
Colbert certainly smells a rat, and that means money and Good TV in Hollywood Land. And Eric has a few more kernels to sprinkle atop Mount Pete, too.
BTW, an interesting snippet: Tom Colbert has reportedly spent $250,000 of his own money on his Cooper Quest. Whew...
Lastly, the fingerprint issues make me wonder why the FBI has seemed so fixated on DNA, especially since they don't have Cooper's full profile.
Or do they.... ?
Add this 302 below to your confusion. Partial prints! "Norjak partials currently on file..."
Where do you get the idea prints werent being compared with military prints of suspects? Thats a false accusation. They were when available. Dozens of 302s document that. Until the govt document center at (St Louis ?) burned down - there are 302s about that and what recourse the FBI had for getting military prints after that! You cite two examples and say: Lazy FBI agents .... a spin job ?
I also have received mail. About Peterson's 302 or should I say his 'newspaper article' pasted on a 302 page ? The author says "Peterson's name is even redacted so there is no way to tell who they are talking about. It does not name Peterson." Another writes: "I have also seen Boeing references in the 302s but few names and not Peterson". ... But now is not the time or place.
Has anyone seen anything in the 302's that talks about taking prints from the other passengers to rule them out? I'm imagining a file full of fingerprints that could now be loaded into a criminal or other type database to see what comes up. However, this would still require law enforcement to rule out a lot of people who were on that plane that day, or even in previous days. That is standard crime scene investigation, but I have not heard of it in this case.
I watched a show about the mafia in New York city and the police were trying to match a palm print, and eventually did so. It seemed that a suspect had been good about not leaving fingerprints, but had not focused on his palm print. I've read somewhere in the 302's about palm prints and DB Cooper, possibly about him leaving one on the aft stairs when he descended.
It is still shocking to me that a man would plan this hijacking, and actually leave fingerprints behind.
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It is still shocking to me that a man would plan this hijacking, and actually leave fingerprints behind.
I agree. Leaving fingerprints--or a palm print--behind borders on negligent. Negligent is not a word that I would use to describe DB Cooper.
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I don't think a lot of the passengers were in Cooper's area. the palm print apparently was taken from the armrest on the seat. the others are partials. one document claims approx. 80 prints were found in the area. that rules out any wiping down or that many prints wouldn't of been found. they checked against the crew but not sure about all the passengers. they are pretty confident with the palm print since it's mentioned often with suspects in the 302's..in 1978 they claim the prints were not run through the system.
If Cooper was never arrested or in the military his prints are invisible..
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Fingerprints, continued:
A couple of things:
1. Snippets. Yup, that's what I've gotten over the years - a little here and a little there. Mostly from books, like Calame and Rhodes, or the DZ and Ckret, etc. And that is what ended up in my book - snippets discussed here and there. Now, I'm endeavoring to gather all the fingerprint information together in one chapter, and come to an understanding of what the FBI has and doesn't have.
Thanks to many of the posters here - including Marty, Nat, Shut, Galen, FJ, 377 - I now know that the FBI has eight fingerprints that they feel confident are DB Cooper's. One of the eight is a palm print, apparently, although it may be a partial palm print. Others are "finger" fingerprints, and include at least one good one from a flight magazine that the FBI apparently collected, although Calame and Rhodes say the Reno team failed to take them.
Hence, this leads to a second question:
2. If the FBI had DBC's prints, how come they weren't used, especially with suspects who had military records, such as Sheridan Peterson and Robert Rackstraw? To my thinking, the FBI could have compared their DBC fingerprints with the military's on Petey and Airborne Bob and determined in-house whether these guys were DBC or not. As a result, what was the REAL reason Nicole Devereaux and Mary Jean Fryar went a'knocking on Petey's door, and why did the FBI intercept Bobby in Paris on his way back from Iran in 1979? Further, why did the FBI say they ruled out Bob because the prints they got, presumably in Paris in '79, didn't match the eight DBC prints on file. Whaddaya think we got here? A lazy FBI agent who wanted to make work for himself, or a spin job to cover up the real reason for the Paris snatch?
Colbert certainly smells a rat, and that means money and Good TV in Hollywood Land. And Eric has a few more kernels to sprinkle atop Mount Pete, too.
BTW, an interesting snippet: Tom Colbert has reportedly spent $250,000 of his own money on his Cooper Quest. Whew...
Lastly, the fingerprint issues make me wonder why the FBI has seemed so fixated on DNA, especially since they don't have Cooper's full profile.
Or do they.... ?
Add this 302 below to your confusion. Partial prints! "Norjak partials currently on file..."
Where do you get the idea prints werent being compared with military prints of suspects? Thats a false accusation. They were when available. Dozens of 302s document that. Until the govt document center at (St Louis ?) burned down - there are 302s about that and what recourse the FBI had for getting military prints after that! You cite two examples and say: Lazy FBI agents .... a spin job ?
I also have received mail. About Peterson's 302 or should I say his 'newspaper article' pasted on a 302 page ? The author says "Peterson's name is even redacted so there is no way to tell who they are talking about. It does not name Peterson." Another writes: "I have also seen Boeing references in the 302s but few names and not Peterson". ... But now is not the time or place.
Has anyone seen anything in the 302's that talks about taking prints from the other passengers to rule them out? I'm imagining a file full of fingerprints that could now be loaded into a criminal or other type database to see what comes up. However, this would still require law enforcement to rule out a lot of people who were on that plane that day, or even in previous days. That is standard crime scene investigation, but I have not heard of it in this case.
I watched a show about the mafia in New York city and the police were trying to match a palm print, and eventually did so. It seemed that a suspect had been good about not leaving fingerprints, but had not focused on his palm print. I've read somewhere in the 302's about palm prints and DB Cooper, possibly about him leaving one on the aft stairs when he descended.
It is still shocking to me that a man would plan this hijacking, and actually leave fingerprints behind.
Yes - short answer. Of course - shortest answer. Thats common Lab practice - requirement. Anyone and everyone gets printed. With the large numbers involved automation becomes almost required. In the beginning 302s tell us all print comparisons were being done visually by hand by experienced techs and its likely several techs became the 'go to' people to do the job so a few people built up a Norjak knowledge base to do the job ... could they write a book!! Ask Tom Kaye about this! Lab people are where the rubber meets the road -
Are there 302s that document this - yes but not for every possible name on a long list of people ... that opens a hole you can drive the Russian Army through to build a social narrative. And people do this every day - at forums.
Be patient.
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Case Closed:
. . . no evidence . . . DB Cooper was anybody you want him to be. He may have even been a She! All thanks to those corrupt lazy spinnerds in the government ...
Pick the Conspiracy of your choice! :) The Tina Bar Money Find was a plant by the LA Lakers!
"During a conference in San Francisco in April, 1976, several West Coast Division case agents and the Bureau supervisor at that time reviewed captioned investigation. A memorandum from that conference reported that there were no quality suspects at the time and only limited physical evidence. Eyewitness identification was considered weak at that time. Nearly 10 years have passed since that conference. The conference came to the conclusion that "if COOPER was to surrender to authorities now or in the near future, it would be extremely difficult to make the case if he was uncooperative.”
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I don't think a lot of the passengers were in Cooper's area. the palm print apparently was taken from the armrest on the seat. the others are partials. one document claims approx. 80 prints were found in the area. that rules out any wiping down or that many prints wouldn't of been found. they checked against the crew but not sure about all the passengers. they are pretty confident with the palm print since it's mentioned often with suspects in the 302's..in 1978 they claim the prints were not run through the system.
If Cooper was never arrested or in the military his prints are invisible..
Agreed, if he was not arrested or in the military, his prints are not likely on file. Also, if he was in the military during the key time we all think he was, then his prints could have been destroyed in the fire at the St. Louis archives. Even if they were not destroyed, those prints are not cataloged for search as far as I know. The FBI would have to request prints from a specific individual. Having seen prints from different years across different branches, I can say that I have yet to see a palm print. The show on Netflix that I referenced is called Fear City: New York versus The Mafia. The FBI had a palm print, but could not match the palm print to anyone because at the time they had not been taking palm prints. They had a suspect though, and busted him on a small charge as an excuse to print him again, and this time they took his palm print.
If DB Cooper is dead, then his palm prints may be gone. I don't know enough about palm prints though to say if a palm print has any of the same characteristics of an individual's finger prints. I guess its possible that some law enforcement agencies took palm prints.
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I don't know when they started but they now take palm prints. back then they would have to get them from the suspect I would assume?
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Though not as common or straight forward as fingerprinting, palm print identification has become an important tool in identifying criminal suspects. ... The ridges and lines in the palm are a set of unique biometric identifiers, just like in a set of fingerprints
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One of the FBI files from the late 80's references a description of Cooper which includes cigarette stains on his right hand. Is this accurate? I do not recall any description of DBC from the witnesses stating that DBC had cigarette stains on his right hand.
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I've been wondering about that cig stain for a long time. When I entered the Vortex in 2008, serious tobacco stains on the right hand were a given - probably from Jo Weber frequent pronouncements. But I never saw any documentation on that.
Flyjack just sent me a doc that mentions cig stains on the right hand, but that's the only piece I've seen.
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I've been wondering about that cig stain for a long time. When I entered the Vortex in 2008, serious tobacco stains on the right hand were a given - probably from Jo Weber frequent pronouncements. But I never saw any documentation on that.
Flyjack just sent me a doc that mentions cig stains on the right hand, but that's the only piece I've seen.
A document providing a summary is meaningless. Anyone who has read through these documents over the years can point out myriad errors in such overviews.
What I want to see--and have never seen--is direct testimony from one of the flight attendants saying that DBC had tobacco stains anywhere. If I'm wrong I'd love to see the direct testimony because that would be very important evidence in my mind.
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Another aspect that I'm very interested in is the FBI's Cooper bills.
More to the point, I have read a number of media accounts--some in the FBI files--which indicate that the FBI took 14 Cooper bills and the rest were split evenly between Brian and the insurance company.
The problem is that I have only identified 10 bills and have never seen a picture of the other four. Below is a comparison between what Larry Carr showed (I believe in 2009) and what Tom Kaye photo'd (I believe in 2008). NOTE: The bills have been moved around and even flipped onto the opposite side in some cases.
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GEORGER you're not telling me anything that I don't already know. Specifically, that the FBI received 14 bills.
My question is: Where are the 14 bills?
After all, I can account for only 10 of the bills. There appear to be four missing. Why?
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Happy Monday!
Since there isn’t a thread specifically dedicated to it, what is the best thread to discuss when Cooper jumped?
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I vote for "Flight Path and Related Issues."
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I vote for "Flight Path and Related Issues."
I can go with that.
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So where is Florence Shaffner now? I am not sure of the spelling of the last name but I think I have her name right? She was the ex Ms Arkansas right? Which means she has been proposed to a zillion times and God knows what her last name is now? Ill bet its different?
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Florence lives in South Carolina and has not had any contact with DB Cooper researchers that I know of since 2009. Galen Cook and Geoffrey Gray were the last two guys to talk with her. Surprisingly, she did not respond to diligent attempts by Jo Weber back a few years ago, circa 2015.
Yup, she's married and uses her husband's last name.
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I wonder why she is so hell bent on avoiding the DB Cooper case when she is a major player? I am sure she has been offered money for book deals and such? Its just frustrating to see people act like this. I feel bad for you Bruce having had doors slammed in your face and being called every name in the book by the guy who packed Coopers chute and was then whacked. Your gathering evidence and you get treated like a villain. This case is a big deal just like Alcatraz and the Ripper case and JFK and a bunch more.
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Avoidance of the media is one of the mysteries of this case, imo.
Of all the people who have dodged me, only Ralph Himmelsbach told me why- he wanted to be paid for an interview.
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I wonder why she is so hell bent on avoiding the DB Cooper case when she is a major player? I am sure she has been offered money for book deals and such? Its just frustrating to see people act like this. I feel bad for you Bruce having had doors slammed in your face and being called every name in the book by the guy who packed Coopers chute and was then whacked. Your gathering evidence and you get treated like a villain. This case is a big deal just like Alcatraz and the Ripper case and JFK and a bunch more.
Florence Schaffner seems to be one of the few on that plane who were truly spooked by what DB Cooper did. If you watch her on Unsolved Mysteries, she still seems very serious. That was around 1987. I've read that she was shaken up by the whole incident, even looking for bombs under cars (although I may be mixing her up with Tina on this one). Flo is in her 70's now, and at that age people tend to get more fearful of bad things happening. She was probably pestered through the years too. I believe her husband is former law enforcement too. I'd be surprised if we ever hear anything from her again. But, some of us never expected Bill Mitchell to speak out again, yet he did recently.
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Maybe it wasn't such a victimless crime, as it is often portrayed as. It obviously affected Flo and Tina for years to come.
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Still does. Tina's husband was angry but weary when he told me that he and Tina were followed by FBI agents in the mid-1970s. Alan is married nowadays and has an active family with kids, so he is very reluctant to talk about Tina and "the past."
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Have any Cooper researchers interviewed the company(s) and their employees that did the dredging operations around Tena Bar back during the 70s? I would think many of those guys would still be alive and maybe could shed some light into where the rest of the money ended up. Needle in a haystack, like all of this, but seems like a much smaller pool of individuals than researching Boeing employees, etc.
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Have any Cooper researchers interviewed the company(s) and their employees that did the dredging operations around Tena Bar back during the 70s? I would think many of those guys would still be alive and maybe could shed some light into where the rest of the money ended up. Needle in a haystack, like all of this, but seems like a much smaller pool of individuals than researching Boeing employees, etc.
I think Tom interviewed a few of them ... see my prior posts here on Tosaw and salvage people.
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author=Bruce A. Smith link=topic=18.msg9663#msg9663 date=1460686117]
Passenger List
Does anyone know the name of the passenger to whom George Labisonniere, in his interview, referred as the "man in the cowboy hat"?
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author=Bruce A. Smith link=topic=18.msg9663#msg9663 date=1460686117]
Passenger List
Does anyone know the name of the passenger to whom George Labisonniere, in his interview, referred as the "man in the cowboy hat"?
I am curious about this as well. The "cowboy" can be seen exiting in Seattle on the Cronkite footage, but aside from that there does not seem to be any interviews or further investigation by the FBI.
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When you find the "Cowboy," please let me know!
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When you find the "Cowboy," please let me know!
In the KIRO-TV footage, the "cowboy" looked to be 20-25 years old. If he is still alive, he should be 70-75.
By elimination, he must have been one of the following:
* Clause, Roy D. or Clouse, Ray D. (Missoula)
* Keats, William (Minneapolis)
* Menendez, Adrian (Portland)
* Michelson or Mikelson, Dennis (Great Falls)
* Minsch, Patrick (Portland)
* Rice, Daniel (Great Falls).
Persons with these names listed in the US White Pages, and now aged over 70, include the following:
* Ray D Clouse, 138 Point Ln, Jacksboro, TN 37757-3831, tel. 423-562-2990
* Adrian J Menendez, 10320 N Armenia Ave, Tampa, FL 33612, tel. 813-933-5128
* Dennis Lloyd Michelson, 6322 146th St SW, Edmonds, WA 98026-3647, tel. 425-745-8377, 425-745-6076
* Patrick W Minsch, 9562 Eagle St, Juneau, AK 99801 (maybe now Friday Harbor, WA)
* Daniel L Rice, 1346 Main St, Buckley, WA, tel. 360-829-1438
(There are at least four persons over 70 named William Keats.)
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When you find the "Cowboy," please let me know!
In the KIRO-TV footage, the "cowboy" looked to be 20-25 years old. If he is still alive, he should be 70-75.
By elimination, he must have been one of the following:
* Clause, Roy D. or Clouse, Ray D. (Missoula)
* Keats, William (Minneapolis)
* Menendez, Adrian (Portland)
* Michelson or Mikelson, Dennis (Great Falls)
* Minsch, Patrick (Portland)
* Rice, Daniel (Great Falls).
Persons with these names listed in the US White Pages, and now aged over 70, include the following:
* Ray D Clouse, 138 Point Ln, Jacksboro, TN 37757-3831, tel. 423-562-2990
* Adrian J Menendez, 10320 N Armenia Ave, Tampa, FL 33612, tel. 813-933-5128
* Dennis Lloyd Michelson, 6322 146th St SW, Edmonds, WA 98026-3647, tel. 425-745-8377, 425-745-6076
* Patrick W Minsch, 9562 Eagle St, Juneau, AK 99801 (maybe now Friday Harbor, WA)
* Daniel L Rice, 1346 Main St, Buckley, WA, tel. 360-829-1438
(There are at least four persons over 70 named William Keats.)
Thanks for the info! I wonder if the "cowboy" was one of the passengers who boarded in Montana....
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author=Bruce A. Smith link=topic=18.msg9663#msg9663 date=1460686117]
Passenger List
Does anyone know the name of the passenger to whom George Labisonniere, in his interview, referred as the "man in the cowboy hat"?
I am curious about this as well. The "cowboy" can be seen exiting in Seattle on the Cronkite footage, but aside from that there does not seem to be any interviews or further investigation by the FBI.
So the cowboy is the "babushka lady" (Kennedy Assassination) of this case? How the hell did you guys ever get the plane manifest? Is that what Bruce has listed? I would think that is not easy info to get? Do you suspect Cooper might have had "backup" on board just in case things went south with the cops? That is tough to imagine. But it seems in 1971 you could bring a bazooka on the plane if you wanted
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Possible additional contact details:
Patrick W Minsch: Minsch04@hotmail.com (correction: mailbox not available)
Dennis Michelson: Denmichel44@yahoo.com
Adrian Menendez: Adrian.menendez@hotmail.com
William G Keats 14 S Main St, Laconia, NH 03246, 603-524-1111, Liftman@myfairpoint.net
William F Keats: 64 Roydon Dr E, Merrick, NY 11566, 516-781-6769, Keatstax@yahoo.com
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How the hell did you guys ever get the plane manifest?
The list is by courtesy of Bruce Smith. Passengers eliminated are females; couples or parties travelling together; the FBI's five substantive witnesses; and persons who are now over 75.
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Well I guess I am not the only "early bird". Good to know. I was looking at some photo's back in the day. You know, I actually would slip a note to Tina over Florence if I was actually trying to get a date with one of them. I see why you like her Bruce! :)
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What were the major employers in Eugene OR in 1970? One of the anonymous suspects profiled in FBI 52 were from there.
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What were the major employers in Eugene OR in 1970? One of the anonymous suspects profiled in FBI 52 were from there.
At that time the largest employer was the University of Oregon. Might be worth looking into the chemistry department there. There is also Jewelry & Metalsmithing program there.
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How the hell did you guys ever get the plane manifest?
The list is by courtesy of Bruce Smith. Passengers eliminated are females; couples or parties travelling together; the FBI's five substantive witnesses; and persons who are now over 75.
The list I compiled and published is an amalgam from many sources. The Seattle Times published a passenger list in 1971, and Carol Abracadabra discussed it at the 2011 conference. But it is not 100% accurate. Shutter, I believe, found the NWO manifest some time ago, and it, too, is not complete. Lastly, Geoffrey Gray gave us lots of info on certain passengers from his perusal of the 302s back in 2008-9, but he never offered a full listing of the passengers.
I was also able to speak directly with a small group of passengers: Bill Mitchell, Jack Almstad, Mike Cooper, Larry Finegold, and Scott MacPherson. Each was able to give me a little more clarity about who, what, and where.
"Mrs. Kloepher's" presence on the plane, or lack thereof, is still in question, as is the total number of passengers on Flight 305. The traditional number is 36, but that number generally does not cite whether Dan Cooper is one of the 36, or was the 37th "soul" on the aircraft, along with six crew members. I opt to say that there were 36 passengers in total, including Danny Boy. That means 35 folks got off the plane at Sea-Tac, along with two flight attendants - Flo and Alice.
That's my current understanding of the situation.
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What were the major employers in Eugene OR in 1970? One of the anonymous suspects profiled in FBI 52 were from there.
At that time the largest employer was the University of Oregon. Might be worth looking into the chemistry department there. There is also Jewelry & Metalsmithing program there.
There's a sizeable industrial park and region on the north side of Eugene. But I don't know any names of the firms. Eugene is mostly a college town, as the U of OR is HUGE, but it's more than just "Town and Gown."
Also, Springfield, OR is just across the Willamette from Eugene and is a "sister" city to Eugene, with LOTS of industry and business. Frankly, I was surprised that Tina decided to live there for as long as she did. Her home, as small as it was, was an emerald jewel of green and garden in a land of junked cars, potholes, and dirt-gray living.
As for Tina, she lives in Eugene now, from what I hear, and kinda within walking distance to her Catholic Church. That might be an issue as she had a handicapped parking sticker on her car a few years back and she - as I am - turned 71 this year!
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Dennis Michelson: Denmichel44@yahoo.com
Update: e-mailed him and he is not the NWA305 passenger.
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FBI CODIS Core STR loci.
https://strbase.nist.gov/fbicore.htm
Epithelial cells - Cells that cover the inner and outer linings of body cavities.
http://www.forensicsciencesimplified.org/dna/glossary.html
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My DVR picked up a new Cooper special tonight. Seemed familiar. Tell me if it's familiar to you, too.
Start
- Violin music plays.
- Narrator takes 4-5 minutes to tell the Cooper backstory over found footage shots.
- Narrator takes 2-3 minutes telling you about the new theory by the new "expert" who has found that everyone else was wrong.
- Violin music continues.
- "Expert" interviews a new someone the FBI overlooked.
- "Expert" and others locate new search area nobody has looked in.
- Nobody finds shit.
- Expert says they're more determined than ever.
- Narrator asks mysterious questions.
- Credits roll. Violin music plays.
Next.
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What were the major employers in Eugene OR in 1970? One of the anonymous suspects profiled in FBI 52 were from there.
At that time the largest employer was the University of Oregon. Might be worth looking into the chemistry department there. There is also Jewelry & Metalsmithing program there.
There's a sizeable industrial park and region on the north side of Eugene. But I don't know any names of the firms. Eugene is mostly a college town, as the U of OR is HUGE, but it's more than just "Town and Gown."
Also, Springfield, OR is just across the Willamette from Eugene and is a "sister" city to Eugene, with LOTS of industry and business. Frankly, I was surprised that Tina decided to live there for as long as she did. Her home, as small as it was, was an emerald jewel of green and garden in a land of junked cars, potholes, and dirt-gray living.
As for Tina, she lives in Eugene now, from what I hear, and kinda within walking distance to her Catholic Church. That might be an issue as she had a handicapped parking sticker on her car a few years back and she - as I am - turned 71 this year!
What do you think brought Tina to the Eugene area Bruce? She didn’t seem to have any ties to the area...did her sister live around there? I know her sister and FBI agent husband took her into a facility around there when she had a breakdown accord to Galen right and she just kind of stuck around going into the convent and then after she left. Also coincides when we see a change in her religion and she is now a Catholic as apposed to a Lutheran.
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Tina was in the Lutheran Home and Health facility in Gresham, Oregon in 1979. Maybe earlier. That's 100 miles north of Eugene. How she landed there is wholly unknown to me. But apparently she did so from southern California, and her sister and brother-in-law.
After Gresham, my understanding is that Tina's sister, Jane, and brother-in-law, Lee Dormuth, transported her from the health facility to Eugene, to the Carmel of Maria Monastery of the Discalced Carmelites on Green Hill Rd. Why there, is again another mystery to me.
When she left the convent twelve years later, I'm not sure why she stayed in the area, either, but why not? She was 42 years old and Eugene is a college town, and it's a lovely city and area. Regardless, she enrolled in some community college, I am told by Galen, and rebuilt her life there.
Plus, there wasn't much for her back in Philly, and her two-years of married life had been in the Bay Area, and then she was in San Diego with Jane and Lee for awhile before Gresham. So she had no real roots or deep connections anywhere else. I sense that she had little to no contact with any of her colleagues at NWO after she left Alan in 1976. She and Alan had some strong friendships with other NWO personnel before they left the area for Oakland, circa 1974. Afterwards, it diminished. Alan moved back and remarried, and is still in NWO country.
I suspect that after the turbulence of her life, Tina may have been comforted knowing the nuns and the Church were not too far away.
On the other hand, many other reasons could have been at play.
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In regards to Tina, has it been seriously considered that she could have handled the Tina Bar money?
She told the FBI she had sarcastically asked Cooper for some of the money, after which he offered her several bundles. Firstly, why would you kid around with someone who has threatened your life? Secondly, no one else reported on this exchange (Tina asking for money), so it's her word and her word alone.
As referenced previously, she was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980. I don't believe that Tina was involved in the hijacking, or knew Cooper prior to the hijacking, but what was stopping her from accepting a couple grand after a stressful work day? After all, she had already accepted one of Cooper's cigarettes. I could be exceedingly wrong here, but I figured I would put it out there.
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I spoke with captain Scott’s daughter at cooper con last year and she told me that her father told her that Tina had told him that Cooper had offered her some of the money. I agree GOW it’s rather odd behavior giving the circumstances and speaks to the level of comfortability/report she had with cooper.
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That's interesting to hear. Do you know if she told Scott on the plane or after the fact?
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I spoke with captain Scott’s daughter at cooper con last year and she told me that her father told her that Tina had told him that Cooper had offered her some of the money. I agree GOW it’s rather odd behavior giving the circumstances and speaks to the level of comfortability/report she had with cooper.
did captain scott say that tina accepted any of the money or seemed to consider it?
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In regards to Tina, has it been seriously considered that she could have handled the Tina Bar money?
She told the FBI she had sarcastically asked Cooper for some of the money, after which he offered her several bundles. Firstly, why would you kid around with someone who has threatened your life? Secondly, no one else reported on this exchange (Tina asking for money), so it's her word and her word alone.
As referenced previously, she was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980. I don't believe that Tina was involved in the hijacking, or knew Cooper prior to the hijacking, but what was stopping her from accepting a couple grand after a stressful work day? After all, she had already accepted one of Cooper's cigarettes. I could be exceedingly wrong here, but I figured I would put it out there.
Nervous reaction to reduce tensions explains Tina asking Cooper for some of the 'stolen' money! It's quite simple. No ulterior MKULTRA and SPAWN OF THE DEVIL conspiracy as per Cooper cultists.
A better question would be: did any of the stews have hijacking training? Or situation training? Im betting they didn't. So Tina was probably using her natural instincts and common sense. Every crew member had been told/ordered to "cooperate with the hijacker" .... to make this hijacking go away asap! Tina was hijacked along with the plane! She had no choices... her positive social instincts is one of the reasons she was hired by NWO in the first place. Not everyone that applies is hired as a stewardess.
Who knows what Tina told Scott. Only Tina could answer that! :-X
Who cares if 'Tina was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980'. It's a small world and people are allowed to live where they want when they want! Your language 'ducked into' is pejorative and conspiratorial.
And, nobody involved in this hijacking was ever elected or served as President of Pakistan, Bulgaria, or Tana Tuva! :rofl:
Tina has manners! :bravo: Is it affection, or affliction! :o
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In regards to Tina, has it been seriously considered that she could have handled the Tina Bar money?
She told the FBI she had sarcastically asked Cooper for some of the money, after which he offered her several bundles. Firstly, why would you kid around with someone who has threatened your life? Secondly, no one else reported on this exchange (Tina asking for money), so it's her word and her word alone.
As referenced previously, she was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980. I don't believe that Tina was involved in the hijacking, or knew Cooper prior to the hijacking, but what was stopping her from accepting a couple grand after a stressful work day? After all, she had already accepted one of Cooper's cigarettes. I could be exceedingly wrong here, but I figured I would put it out there.
Nervous reaction to reduce tensions explains Tina asking Cooper for some of the 'stolen' money! It's quite simple. No ulterior MKULTRA and SPAWN OF THE DEVIL conspiracy as per Cooper cultists.
A better question would be: did any of the stews have hijacking training? Or situation training? Im betting they didn't. So Tina was probably using her natural instincts and common sense. Every crew member had been told/ordered to "cooperate with the hijacker" .... to make this hijacking go away asap! Tina was hijacked along with the plane! She had no choices... her positive social instincts is one of the reasons she was hired by NWO in the first place. Not everyone that applies is hired as a stewardess.
Who knows what Tina told Scott. Only Tina could answer that! :-X
Who cares if 'Tina was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980'. It's a small world and people are allowed to live where they want when they want! Your language 'ducked into' is pejorative and conspiratorial.
And, nobody involved in this hijacking was ever elected or served as President of Pakistan, Bulgaria, or Tana Tuva! :rofl:
Tina has manners! :bravo: Is it affection, or affliction! :o
Georger is absolutely correct on this. There is absolute nothing to suggest that the three stewardesses or the three cockpit crew members had anything to do with the hijacking other than being victims. There is some nonsense on You Tube that suggests otherwise but it is completely baseless.
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That's interesting to hear. Do you know if she told Scott on the plane or after the fact?
Not sure all I know is she relayed it to Scott at some point.
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I spoke with captain Scott’s daughter at cooper con last year and she told me that her father told her that Tina had told him that Cooper had offered her some of the money. I agree GOW it’s rather odd behavior giving the circumstances and speaks to the level of comfortability/report she had with cooper.
did captain scott say that tina accepted any of the money or seemed to consider it?
No
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In regards to Tina, has it been seriously considered that she could have handled the Tina Bar money?
She told the FBI she had sarcastically asked Cooper for some of the money, after which he offered her several bundles. Firstly, why would you kid around with someone who has threatened your life? Secondly, no one else reported on this exchange (Tina asking for money), so it's her word and her word alone.
As referenced previously, she was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980. I don't believe that Tina was involved in the hijacking, or knew Cooper prior to the hijacking, but what was stopping her from accepting a couple grand after a stressful work day? After all, she had already accepted one of Cooper's cigarettes. I could be exceedingly wrong here, but I figured I would put it out there.
Nervous reaction to reduce tensions explains Tina asking Cooper for some of the 'stolen' money! It's quite simple. No ulterior MKULTRA and SPAWN OF THE DEVIL conspiracy as per Cooper cultists.
A better question would be: did any of the stews have hijacking training? Or situation training? Im betting they didn't. So Tina was probably using her natural instincts and common sense. Every crew member had been told/ordered to "cooperate with the hijacker" .... to make this hijacking go away asap! Tina was hijacked along with the plane! She had no choices... her positive social instincts is one of the reasons she was hired by NWO in the first place. Not everyone that applies is hired as a stewardess.
Who knows what Tina told Scott. Only Tina could answer that! :-X
Who cares if 'Tina was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980'. It's a small world and people are allowed to live where they want when they want! Your language 'ducked into' is pejorative and conspiratorial.
And, nobody involved in this hijacking was ever elected or served as President of Pakistan, Bulgaria, or Tana Tuva! :rofl:
Tina has manners! :bravo: Is it affection, or affliction! :o
No G none of the stews had skyjacker training but Tina could of taught the class. NWO also hired Alice Hancock and Flo Shaffer both who were Tina’s superiors. It’s safe to say they couldn’t handle the situation especially flo who by all accounts shit her pants... so I don’t know what that says about nwo’s hiring...maybe the crew and passengers along with cooper aboard flight 305 just got lucky with Tina, Rat sure thought so and gave her some nice Chanel perfume as a token of his gratitude but maybe it just wasn’t luck, it’s worth exploring with out having to get blasted by you G and get ridiculed and called a conspiracist. If this case is ever going to be solved there can be no stone left unturned I say! Tina told Scott cooper offered him some of the money... this is corroborated by other reports/302’s...that exchange happened when cooper got the ransom. There’s also a description of him getting childlike and exuberant. I agree TM being 45 min from tbar when the money find occurred is nothing to hold your hat on but when the timing of the find on the namesake beach coincides with a nervous breakdown and entry into a assistant living facility and then into the convent where it was reported she never fit in and then left after 12 years which is unusual, understandably to me that would makes some curious. Not to mention her lying about how long she continued to work nwo after norjack.
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In regards to Tina, has it been seriously considered that she could have handled the Tina Bar money?
She told the FBI she had sarcastically asked Cooper for some of the money, after which he offered her several bundles. Firstly, why would you kid around with someone who has threatened your life? Secondly, no one else reported on this exchange (Tina asking for money), so it's her word and her word alone.
As referenced previously, she was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980. I don't believe that Tina was involved in the hijacking, or knew Cooper prior to the hijacking, but what was stopping her from accepting a couple grand after a stressful work day? After all, she had already accepted one of Cooper's cigarettes. I could be exceedingly wrong here, but I figured I would put it out there.
Nervous reaction to reduce tensions explains Tina asking Cooper for some of the 'stolen' money! It's quite simple. No ulterior MKULTRA and SPAWN OF THE DEVIL conspiracy as per Cooper cultists.
A better question would be: did any of the stews have hijacking training? Or situation training? Im betting they didn't. So Tina was probably using her natural instincts and common sense. Every crew member had been told/ordered to "cooperate with the hijacker" .... to make this hijacking go away asap! Tina was hijacked along with the plane! She had no choices... her positive social instincts is one of the reasons she was hired by NWO in the first place. Not everyone that applies is hired as a stewardess.
Who knows what Tina told Scott. Only Tina could answer that! :-X
Who cares if 'Tina was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980'. It's a small world and people are allowed to live where they want when they want! Your language 'ducked into' is pejorative and conspiratorial.
And, nobody involved in this hijacking was ever elected or served as President of Pakistan, Bulgaria, or Tana Tuva! :rofl:
Tina has manners! :bravo: Is it affection, or affliction! :o
No G none of the stews had skyjacker training but Tina could of taught the class. NWO also hired Alice Hancock and Flo Shaffer both who were Tina’s superiors. It’s safe to say they couldn’t handle the situation especially flo who by all accounts shit her pants... so I don’t know what that says about nwo’s hiring...maybe the crew and passengers along with cooper aboard flight 305 just got lucky with Tina, Rat sure thought so and gave her some nice Chanel perfume as a token of his gratitude but maybe it just wasn’t luck, it’s worth exploring with out having to get blasted by you G and get ridiculed and called a conspiracist. If this case is ever going to be solved there can be no stone left unturned I say! Tina told Scott cooper offered him some of the money... this is corroborated by other reports/302’s...that exchange happened when cooper got the ransom. There’s also a description of him getting childlike and exuberant. I agree TM being 45 min from tbar when the money find occurred is nothing to hold your hat on but when the timing of the find on the namesake beach coincides with a nervous breakdown and entry into a assistant living facility and then into the convent where it was reported she never fit in and then left after 12 years which is unusual, understandably to me that would makes some curious. Not to mention her lying about how long she continued to work nwo after norjack.
Whatever. GL & 73s. ..... .. ..._._
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Accusations of Tina having something to do with the skyjacking or the money, or inferred suggestions based on unusual behaviors, always offends me because I think she is an exceptionally honorable woman, but I do understand the curious connection Tina has to the money find:
1. Namesake beach
2. Living upstream of T-Bar in Gresham, Oregon at the time of discovery or shortly before.
3. Immediate disappearance into a convent and commencing her 30-years of silence during the near time-frame of the money discovery.
But these days my thinking is heavily influenced by the diatom findings that indicate a one-time springtime dunking in the Columbia. Since the money found in 1980 most likely was present at T-Bar in 1972 or 1974, that precludes for me any possibility that Tina buried the money at T-Bar. In 1972 she was living in Minnesota and still flying for NWO, and in 1974 she was getting married and moving to California.
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Accusations of Tina having something to do with the skyjacking or the money, or inferred suggestions based on unusual behaviors, always offends me because I think she is an exceptionally honorable woman, but I do understand the curious connection Tina has to the money find:
1. Namesake beach
2. Living upstream of T-Bar in Gresham, Oregon at the time of discovery or shortly before.
3. Immediate disappearance into a convent and commencing her 30-years of silence during the near time-frame of the money discovery.
But these days my thinking is heavily influenced by the diatom findings that indicate a one-time springtime dunking in the Columbia. Since the money found in 1980 most likely was present at T-Bar in 1972 or 1974, that precludes for me any possibility that Tina buried the money at T-Bar. In 1972 she was living in Minnesota and still flying for NWO, and in 1974 she was getting married and moving to California.
If Mucklow had been a man named Ralph would you be devoting the same energy to him? I doubt it. And I think it started with Tosaw and passed to Cook and you!
And I think the THEORIES socalled, would be totally different! Food for thought. ;)
Let me be plain. I think 90% of what some people have said and continue to say about Tina Mucklow is pure sexist bullshit, with no basis in fact. I dont think you people know Tina Mucklow at all. That's why she keeps slamming the door in your faces ..................
Ask Musica Farnsworth to explain it to you. You keep calling her "Mooshie" ! ::)
Have you ever seen the movie: Under The Skin?
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* Ray D Clouse, 138 Point Ln, Jacksboro, TN 37757-3831, tel. 423-562-2990
* Daniel L Rice, 1346 Main St, Buckley, WA, tel. 360-829-1438
I have e-mailed Adrian Menendez, Dennis Michelson and two of the William Keats, and have written by postal mail to Ray D Clouse and Daniel L Rice, to see if they were the passengers who were listed on the NWA305 manifest. Mr Michelson replied, he was not the passenger, and in the White Pages there is no other person of that name and of the right age.
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In regards to Tina, has it been seriously considered that she could have handled the Tina Bar money?
She told the FBI she had sarcastically asked Cooper for some of the money, after which he offered her several bundles. Firstly, why would you kid around with someone who has threatened your life? Secondly, no one else reported on this exchange (Tina asking for money), so it's her word and her word alone.
As referenced previously, she was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980. I don't believe that Tina was involved in the hijacking, or knew Cooper prior to the hijacking, but what was stopping her from accepting a couple grand after a stressful work day? After all, she had already accepted one of Cooper's cigarettes. I could be exceedingly wrong here, but I figured I would put it out there.
I've never suspected Tina of having anything to do with the skyjacking. However, I've sometimes wondered if the 3 bundles of bills found in 1980 may have been the same bundles that Cooper offered up to Tina.
He takes a few bundles out of the bag and tries to hand them to her. She declines, saying they are not allowed to accept tips. Instead of putting them back into the bag (which already doesn't have as much slack in it as he would probably like), he somewhat hastily and carelessly slips them into his coat pocket or something instead.
We know the bills found at Tina Bar were at some point separated from the rest. And there was some separation of bills on the plane at the moment Cooper tried to hand some to Tina. Were the bills that got separated in the air the same ones that ended up being separated on the ground?
Who knows. Just something I've pondered a time or two. Did Tina ever say what Cooper did with those bills after she declined his tip? Did she say that she then saw him stuff them back into the bag?
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Accusations of Tina having something to do with the skyjacking or the money, or inferred suggestions based on unusual behaviors, always offends me because I think she is an exceptionally honorable woman, but I do understand the curious connection Tina has to the money find:
1. Namesake beach
2. Living upstream of T-Bar in Gresham, Oregon at the time of discovery or shortly before.
3. Immediate disappearance into a convent and commencing her 30-years of silence during the near time-frame of the money discovery.
But these days my thinking is heavily influenced by the diatom findings that indicate a one-time springtime dunking in the Columbia. Since the money found in 1980 most likely was present at T-Bar in 1972 or 1974, that precludes for me any possibility that Tina buried the money at T-Bar. In 1972 she was living in Minnesota and still flying for NWO, and in 1974 she was getting married and moving to California.
Thanks, Bruce. Your summary is basically what I was trying to get at. They could just be curious connections, but it warrants discussion.
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In regards to Tina, has it been seriously considered that she could have handled the Tina Bar money?
She told the FBI she had sarcastically asked Cooper for some of the money, after which he offered her several bundles. Firstly, why would you kid around with someone who has threatened your life? Secondly, no one else reported on this exchange (Tina asking for money), so it's her word and her word alone.
As referenced previously, she was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980. I don't believe that Tina was involved in the hijacking, or knew Cooper prior to the hijacking, but what was stopping her from accepting a couple grand after a stressful work day? After all, she had already accepted one of Cooper's cigarettes. I could be exceedingly wrong here, but I figured I would put it out there.
I've never suspected Tina of having anything to do with the skyjacking. However, I've sometimes wondered if the 3 bundles of bills found in 1980 may have been the same bundles that Cooper offered up to Tina.
He takes a few bundles out of the bag and tries to hand them to her. She declines, saying they are not allowed to accept tips. Instead of putting them back into the bag (which already doesn't have as much slack in it as he would probably like), he somewhat hastily and carelessly slips them into his coat pocket or something instead.
We know the bills found at Tina Bar were at some point separated from the rest. And there was some separation of bills on the plane at the moment Cooper tried to hand some to Tina. Were the bills that got separated in the air the same ones that ended up being separated on the ground?
Who knows. Just something I've pondered a time or two. Did Tina ever say what Cooper did with those bills after she declined his tip? Did she say that she then saw him stuff them back into the bag?
Raoul-I always enjoy reading your posts. Flyjack has hypothisized that those bills could have come from Tina. Gunther's book says they fell while he was on the air stairs. Seems possible that if they found three packets and there were three packets removed from the bag, that those could be the same ones., I still find it odd that only 300 of the 10,000 bills ever showed up. I guess there are many many scenarios as to why this could have occurred. Fun to think about it all though.
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In regards to Tina, has it been seriously considered that she could have handled the Tina Bar money?
She told the FBI she had sarcastically asked Cooper for some of the money, after which he offered her several bundles. Firstly, why would you kid around with someone who has threatened your life? Secondly, no one else reported on this exchange (Tina asking for money), so it's her word and her word alone.
As referenced previously, she was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980. I don't believe that Tina was involved in the hijacking, or knew Cooper prior to the hijacking, but what was stopping her from accepting a couple grand after a stressful work day? After all, she had already accepted one of Cooper's cigarettes. I could be exceedingly wrong here, but I figured I would put it out there.
I've never suspected Tina of having anything to do with the skyjacking. However, I've sometimes wondered if the 3 bundles of bills found in 1980 may have been the same bundles that Cooper offered up to Tina.
He takes a few bundles out of the bag and tries to hand them to her. She declines, saying they are not allowed to accept tips. Instead of putting them back into the bag (which already doesn't have as much slack in it as he would probably like), he somewhat hastily and carelessly slips them into his coat pocket or something instead.
We know the bills found at Tina Bar were at some point separated from the rest. And there was some separation of bills on the plane at the moment Cooper tried to hand some to Tina. Were the bills that got separated in the air the same ones that ended up being separated on the ground?
Who knows. Just something I've pondered a time or two. Did Tina ever say what Cooper did with those bills after she declined his tip? Did she say that she then saw him stuff them back into the bag?
Raoul-I always enjoy reading your posts. Flyjack has hypothisized that those bills could have come from Tina. Gunther's book says they fell while he was on the air stairs. Seems possible that if they found three packets and there were three packets removed from the bag, that those could be the same ones., I still find it odd that only 300 of the 10,000 bills ever showed up. I guess there are many many scenarios as to why this could have occurred. Fun to think about it all though.
There is no possibility whatsoever that the three bundles separated from anyone or anything in the air. If that had happened, the bundles would have split and the bills would have been scattered from Tina Bar to the Canadian border.
In all probability, the bundles arrived at the location where they were found, while still in the original money bag, during a high water event and separated from the bag at that point. The money bag and maybe Cooper's mortal remains then went on down stream.
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In regards to Tina, has it been seriously considered that she could have handled the Tina Bar money?
She told the FBI she had sarcastically asked Cooper for some of the money, after which he offered her several bundles. Firstly, why would you kid around with someone who has threatened your life? Secondly, no one else reported on this exchange (Tina asking for money), so it's her word and her word alone.
As referenced previously, she was a 45 minute drive from Tina Bar in 79, and then ducked into the convent in 1980. I don't believe that Tina was involved in the hijacking, or knew Cooper prior to the hijacking, but what was stopping her from accepting a couple grand after a stressful work day? After all, she had already accepted one of Cooper's cigarettes. I could be exceedingly wrong here, but I figured I would put it out there.
I've never suspected Tina of having anything to do with the skyjacking. However, I've sometimes wondered if the 3 bundles of bills found in 1980 may have been the same bundles that Cooper offered up to Tina.
He takes a few bundles out of the bag and tries to hand them to her. She declines, saying they are not allowed to accept tips. Instead of putting them back into the bag (which already doesn't have as much slack in it as he would probably like), he somewhat hastily and carelessly slips them into his coat pocket or something instead.
We know the bills found at Tina Bar were at some point separated from the rest. And there was some separation of bills on the plane at the moment Cooper tried to hand some to Tina. Were the bills that got separated in the air the same ones that ended up being separated on the ground?
Who knows. Just something I've pondered a time or two. Did Tina ever say what Cooper did with those bills after she declined his tip? Did she say that she then saw him stuff them back into the bag?
Raoul-I always enjoy reading your posts. Flyjack has hypothisized that those bills could have come from Tina. Gunther's book says they fell while he was on the air stairs. Seems possible that if they found three packets and there were three packets removed from the bag, that those could be the same ones., I still find it odd that only 300 of the 10,000 bills ever showed up. I guess there are many many scenarios as to why this could have occurred. Fun to think about it all though.
There is no possibility whatsoever that the three bundles separated from anyone or anything in the air. If that had happened, the bundles would have split and the bills would have been scattered from Tina Bar to the Canadian border.
In all probability, the bundles arrived at the location where they were found, while still in the original money bag, during a high water event and separated from the bag at that point. The money bag and maybe Cooper's mortal remains then went on down stream.
Agreed on the part about the bills definitely not free falling to earth and landing together. What I wonder though is if he stashed those bills in his pocket while still in the air (after trying to give them to Tina) and then landed with them (dead or alive) still secured in his pocket. Then of course who the hell knows what happened next.
Somehow the bundles in the sand were separated from the rest at some point. And the only separation we know of is when Cooper grabbed some of them out of the bag while still in the air. It of course doesn't mean those are one and the same, but something that's crossed my mind before.
I also wonder how the money was distributed at the time of the jump. Did he keep all bills in the bag? Did he manufacture the dummy chute into an improvised bag and load some of them in there? Did he load up his pockets? He also reportedly had some sort of grocery sack or something. Did he put any in there? The briefcase? His plan was foiled a little bit when they brought the money to him in a bank bag and not the knapsack he requested, so I could see him removing some bills to create more slack in the bag for tying purposes. Tina last saw him tying the bank bag to his waist, but he didn't end up jumping for quite a while after that. So I'm curious what he did during that time and if he made any changes to the money distribution before finally bailing.
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Why would cooper put the money elsewhere
If you want to loan someone money and pullout your wallet and give money which they reject would you not put it back where it came from? The bag was open in his hands?
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Why would cooper put the money elsewhere
If you want to loan someone money and pullout your wallet and give money which they reject would not put it back where it came from? The bag was open in his hands?
I agree that it's probably the most likely case that he just simply returned "Tina's tip" to the bank bag.
As it relates to distributing bills elsewhere, we know he showed a little bit of frustration when he saw the bank bag. No straps, no way to close it and from what I've gathered is that it was stuffed so full that there wasn't a lot of slack to fold it shut. I could envision him removing some bundles to create more slack in the bag so he could close it better and possibly have an easier time tying it to him as well.
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* Ray D Clouse, 138 Point Ln, Jacksboro, TN 37757-3831, tel. 423-562-2990
* Daniel L Rice, 1346 Main St, Buckley, WA, tel. 360-829-1438
I have e-mailed Adrian Menendez, Dennis Michelson and two of the William Keats, and have written by postal mail to Ray D Clouse and Daniel L Rice, to see if they were the passengers who were listed on the NWA305 manifest. Mr Michelson replied, he was not the passenger, and in the White Pages there is no other person of that name and of the right age.
Good to know, DF.
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Some of you people are harsh.
And I've said this before, but I'll say it again: A lot of people in this case try to come to absolute conclusions about things that can not be definitively known.
Considering a possibility is not an accusation. Tina might have cooperated with Cooper and tried to personalize herself with him so that he'd be less likely to blow her up. That's not dishonor, that's survival. Maybe she jokingly asks for some of the money. And he gives her some. Maybe she keeps it so as not to piss him off. Maybe she lies about it for fear of legal culpability. Maybe it bothers her so much over time that she eventually gets rid of it, and it contributes to a breakdown and her entering a facility and a convent. I'm not saying I believe that's what happened, but it is possible, so you can't say that it didn't happen.
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There is no possibility whatsoever that the three bundles separated from anyone or anything in the air. If that had happened, the bundles would have split and the bills would have been scattered from Tina Bar to the Canadian border.
Agreed on the part about the bills definitely not free falling to earth and landing together.
I disagree. I can't imagine that terminal velocity of a few bundles of money would be very high. It's not like they would be ripped at by 100 mph winds for 10,000 feet. If they were bundled securely enough to survive the deceleration from exit speed to their terminal, which would happen pretty quickly, then they might well indeed land together intact.
Again, I'm not saying I believe that happened, but it is possible.
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Some of you people are harsh.
And I've said this before, but I'll say it again: A lot of people in this case try to come to absolute conclusions about things that can not be definitively known.
Considering a possibility is not an accusation. Tina might have cooperated with Cooper and tried to personalize herself with him so that he'd be less likely to blow her up. That's not dishonor, that's survival. Maybe she jokingly asks for some of the money. And he gives her some. Maybe she keeps it so as not to piss him off. Maybe she lies about it for fear of legal culpability. Maybe it bothers her so much over time that she eventually gets rid of it, and it contributes to a breakdown and her entering a facility and a convent. I'm not saying I believe that's what happened, but it is possible, so you can't say that it didn't happen.
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There is no possibility whatsoever that the three bundles separated from anyone or anything in the air. If that had happened, the bundles would have split and the bills would have been scattered from Tina Bar to the Canadian border.
Agreed on the part about the bills definitely not free falling to earth and landing together.
I disagree. I can't imagine that terminal velocity of a few bundles of money would be very high. It's not like they would be ripped at by 100 mph winds for 10,000 feet. If they were bundled securely enough to survive the deceleration from exit speed to their terminal, which would happen pretty quickly, then they might well indeed land together intact.
Again, I'm not saying I believe that happened, but it is possible.
It order for bundles of bills to come apart and scatter, the bundles must first come out of the bag. No evidence that happened or could have happened.
As for Tina, she is a victim of "free-rangers" intent on pushing their agendas no matter the cost to Tina and others! I personally saw Tosaw do this here at Iowa City in the Nile Kinnick case. I saw Cook do this in Vancouver with my family over the 'Janet story'. Sluggo warned me he might. I can give chapter and verse! And now we have Bruce Smith suggesting to Tina he could be her "press agent" while refusing to leave her alone and having Tina slam her door in his face on her own property! These people seem to be clueless. It has transcended anything having any relationship to the Cooper case, or anything else.
There are some people who recognize no rules and flaunt their 'superiority', irrespective of common sense and the rights of others. Dealing with these people is always difficult. The cost to others can be great and merciless! In Tina's case, she gave what she had to give to the FBI and others in NORJAK a long time ago. She has been consistent throughout the whole ordeal.
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Some of you people are harsh.
And I've said this before, but I'll say it again: A lot of people in this case try to come to absolute conclusions about things that can not be definitively known.
Considering a possibility is not an accusation. Tina might have cooperated with Cooper and tried to personalize herself with him so that he'd be less likely to blow her up. That's not dishonor, that's survival. Maybe she jokingly asks for some of the money. And he gives her some. Maybe she keeps it so as not to piss him off. Maybe she lies about it for fear of legal culpability. Maybe it bothers her so much over time that she eventually gets rid of it, and it contributes to a breakdown and her entering a facility and a convent. I'm not saying I believe that's what happened, but it is possible, so you can't say that it didn't happen.
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There is no possibility whatsoever that the three bundles separated from anyone or anything in the air. If that had happened, the bundles would have split and the bills would have been scattered from Tina Bar to the Canadian border.
Agreed on the part about the bills definitely not free falling to earth and landing together.
I disagree. I can't imagine that terminal velocity of a few bundles of money would be very high. It's not like they would be ripped at by 100 mph winds for 10,000 feet. If they were bundled securely enough to survive the deceleration from exit speed to their terminal, which would happen pretty quickly, then they might well indeed land together intact.
Again, I'm not saying I believe that happened, but it is possible.
The bundles were found basically on top of each other. I'm no physicist, but I bet if you dropped 3 bundles of money off the roof of your house they wouldn't come to rest within touching distance of each other. Let alone from 10,000 feet. Same general area? Sure. But practically stacked on top of each other? No.
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?
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The bundles were found basically on top of each other. I'm no physicist, but I bet if you dropped 3 bundles of money off the roof of your house they wouldn't come to rest within touching distance of each other. Let alone from 10,000 feet. Same general area? Sure. But practically stacked on top of each other? No.
If they were dropped separately, sure. But - Flyjack posits that packets of money were bundled together. (I know people have argued the wording and semantics of that, but that's beside the point.) So if three bank packets were rubber banded into one bundle, then that could conceivably fall and land as a unit. Look, I'm not saying that I believe that happened - I have no idea how the money ended up at T-bar. It's just that somebody said that such-and-such wasn't remotely possible, and I was just suggesting that it was.
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The bundles were found basically on top of each other. I'm no physicist, but I bet if you dropped 3 bundles of money off the roof of your house they wouldn't come to rest within touching distance of each other. Let alone from 10,000 feet. Same general area? Sure. But practically stacked on top of each other? No.
If they were dropped separately, sure. But - Flyjack posits that packets of money were bundled together. (I know people have argued the wording and semantics of that, but that's beside the point.) So if three bank packets were rubber banded into one bundle, then that could conceivably fall and land as a unit. Look, I'm not saying that I believe that happened - I have no idea how the money ended up at T-bar. It's just that somebody said that such-and-such wasn't remotely possible, and I was just suggesting that it was.
If it was just one unit of money falling then of course. But my understanding is that what was found was 3 separate, individual, independent bundles of money. 3 stacks if you will. 3 different units. Bundles, packs, whatever you want to call them. 3 separate piles. Each one of them with its own rubber band.
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?
Whether or not they were literally on top of each other or not, I do not know. But they were together. It's not as if he found one bundle here and then another one over there and a third one over there. According to his story (or his dad's story), he swept his arm across the sand and boom, there they were. Point is, they were all within inches of each other (which is what I meant by "practically" or "basically" stacked on top of each other). They were all in the same hole.
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?
Whether or not they were literally on top of each other or not, I do not know. But they were together. It's not as if he found one bundle here and then another one over there and a third one over there. According to his story (or his dad's story), he swept his arm across the sand and boom, there they were. Point is, they were all within inches of each other (which is what I meant by "practically" or "basically" stacked on top of each other). They were all in the same hole.
You ignore the testimony posted many times -
"The money came out in pieces", quote Brian Ingram 2010. whatever that means.
So you are free to guess however you want. Just let Santa Claus know so he knows what to do this Holiday!
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?
Brian told me they were stacked. Not exactly one on top of the other, as one bundle was askew by 30 degrees or so. There is a diagram on the Citizen Sleuth website that shows the three bundles' position, as Brian told us all in Portland in 2011.
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?
Whether or not they were literally on top of each other or not, I do not know. But they were together. It's not as if he found one bundle here and then another one over there and a third one over there. According to his story (or his dad's story), he swept his arm across the sand and boom, there they were. Point is, they were all within inches of each other (which is what I meant by "practically" or "basically" stacked on top of each other). They were all in the same hole.
I think you have it right. I believe that Himmelsbach described it as the bundles were very close together, only a few inches apart, and two of them may have even been touching.
Also, the fact that the bundles were so close together is all that I need to say that they didn't drop from anywhere, not even a roof top.
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...As for Tina, she is a victim of "free-rangers" intent on pushing their agendas no matter the cost to Tina and others! ... And now we have Bruce Smith suggesting to Tina he could be her "press agent" while refusing to leave her alone and having Tina slam her door in his face on her own property! These people seem to be clueless. It has transcended anything having any relationship to the Cooper case, or anything else....
I promised the Mucklow clan I would work for free as their press agent if Tina would sit down with me and be real, telling me the whole story. I think they'd get their money's worth, and so would I.
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?
Brian told me they were stacked. Not exactly one on top of the other, as one bundle was askew by 30 degrees or so. There is a diagram on the Citizen Sleuth website that shows the three bundles' position, as Brian told us all in Portland in 2011.
Funny, because Brian's mother told me the money came out in pieces, from the same central area they excavated once Harold realized it was money, but she didn't recall how many pieces. She said they did not remove three distinct bundles but pieces that later added up to three bundles! She said it was the FBI that determined it was three bundles. She said that the rubber band fragments they saw on some of the "pieces" of money did not define three bundles! She said it was the gross amount found that allowed the FBI to determine it was three bundles. She didn't remember how many pieces they had in the sandwich band when she and Harold presented the bag to the FBI, but an older agent took the contents out of the bag and prior to news people being let in the same older agent separated some of the pieces she and Harold had brought in until there were twelve groups of bills showing on the table - those groups photographed by a press photographer for posterity. The same photograph we see today. She and Harold never saw the money again after they left the building. She doesn't know what the FBI did with it.
One Lab report documents the same sand types with the same characteristics being between (all) of the bills. (implies from the same area).
Brian was eight years old at the time. The bulk of what Brian claims to know today has to be information he has been given (or fed to him) by others. So when you say 'Brian says this ... Brian says that' ... it's very likely all hearsay. I spent several weeks asking Brian about the money and the money find and he didn;t remember anything - he finally suggested I talk to his mother and he gave me her phone number! That is how and why I wound up talking to Pat Ingram personally. She was friendly and very forthcoming... I liked her. We talked again later.
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...As for Tina, she is a victim of "free-rangers" intent on pushing their agendas no matter the cost to Tina and others! ... And now we have Bruce Smith suggesting to Tina he could be her "press agent" while refusing to leave her alone and having Tina slam her door in his face on her own property! These people seem to be clueless. It has transcended anything having any relationship to the Cooper case, or anything else....
I promised the Mucklow clan I would work for free as their press agent if Tina would sit down with me and be real, telling me the whole story. I think they'd get their money's worth, and so would I.
You said before Tina slammed her door in your face . . . :nono:
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Yes, Tina slammed her front door three times. Once in my face - not so "slammy" perhaps, "firmly" might be the better way to phrase it - but the next two slams were dramatic. The shock waves of those puppies were palpable. I was sitting in my vehicle on the curb and I thought the neighbors might come out and investigate what was happening.
Later, other members of her family, friendship, and support circle contributed another 8 episodes of door closures.
Eleven total over several years and spanning several states.
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?
Brian told me they were stacked. Not exactly one on top of the other, as one bundle was askew by 30 degrees or so. There is a diagram on the Citizen Sleuth website that shows the three bundles' position, as Brian told us all in Portland in 2011.
Funny, because Brian's mother told me the money came out in pieces, from the same central area they excavated once Harold realized it was money, but she didn't recall how many pieces. She said they did not remove three distinct bundles but pieces that later added up to three bundles! She said it was the FBI that determined it was three bundles. She said that the rubber band fragments they saw on some of the "pieces" of money did not define three bundles! She said it was the gross amount found that allowed the FBI to determine it was three bundles. She didn't remember how many pieces they had in the sandwich band when she and Harold presented the bag to the FBI, but an older agent took the contents out of the bag and prior to news people being let in the same older agent separated some of the pieces she and Harold had brought in until there were twelve groups of bills showing on the table - those groups photographed by a press photographer for posterity. The same photograph we see today. She and Harold never saw the money again after they left the building. She doesn't know what the FBI did with it.
One Lab report documents the same sand types with the same characteristics being between (all) of the bills. (implies from the same area).
Brian was eight years old at the time. The bulk of what Brian claims to know today has to be information he has been given (or fed to him) by others. So when you say 'Brian says this ... Brian says that' ... it's very likely all hearsay. I spent several weeks asking Brian about the money and the money find and he didn;t remember anything - he finally suggested I talk to his mother and he gave me her phone number! That is how and why I wound up talking to Pat Ingram personally. She was friendly and very forthcoming... I liked her. We talked again later.
Clearly, Brian's account is not 100% rock-solid. But whose is?
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?
Brian told me they were stacked. Not exactly one on top of the other, as one bundle was askew by 30 degrees or so. There is a diagram on the Citizen Sleuth website that shows the three bundles' position, as Brian told us all in Portland in 2011.
Funny, because Brian's mother told me the money came out in pieces, from the same central area they excavated once Harold realized it was money, but she didn't recall how many pieces. She said they did not remove three distinct bundles but pieces that later added up to three bundles! She said it was the FBI that determined it was three bundles. She said that the rubber band fragments they saw on some of the "pieces" of money did not define three bundles! She said it was the gross amount found that allowed the FBI to determine it was three bundles. She didn't remember how many pieces they had in the sandwich band when she and Harold presented the bag to the FBI, but an older agent took the contents out of the bag and prior to news people being let in the same older agent separated some of the pieces she and Harold had brought in until there were twelve groups of bills showing on the table - those groups photographed by a press photographer for posterity. The same photograph we see today. She and Harold never saw the money again after they left the building. She doesn't know what the FBI did with it.
One Lab report documents the same sand types with the same characteristics being between (all) of the bills. (implies from the same area).
Brian was eight years old at the time. The bulk of what Brian claims to know today has to be information he has been given (or fed to him) by others. So when you say 'Brian says this ... Brian says that' ... it's very likely all hearsay. I spent several weeks asking Brian about the money and the money find and he didn;t remember anything - he finally suggested I talk to his mother and he gave me her phone number! That is how and why I wound up talking to Pat Ingram personally. She was friendly and very forthcoming... I liked her. We talked again later.
Clearly, Brian's account is not 100% rock-solid. But whose is?
I dont think Brian has any interest in the science of the money. Pat's synopsis was compelling with me - I found her surprisingly open, interested, and forthcoming, but also a little guarded which was understandable.
During our first conversation, Pat made a remark to me that caught me completely off guard - she asked me if I had any idea how the Cooper money had come to be at Tina Bar. I hardly knew what to say back. She took me off the hook by adding quickly: 'we have talked a lot about this and really have no idea'. She said 'the whole discovery was a total surprise, a shock, really'. She said events almost got out of control from that point. I finally replied that I have no proven theory about how the money got to Tina Bar. She interrupted me again, which I welcomed, and she said ' we have talked about this a lot'. I asked her 'Have you talked about this with Brian?' and she said 'Oh yes!' Then I told her: 'That is half of why I am calling. We are trying to figure out how the money got on the sandbar.' It was obvious Pat wonders about their discovery, all these years later. That exchange is one of the reasons I say I found her compelling and thoughtful. I found the whole conversation refreshing, frankly. And a welcome surprise.
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I have seen this "stacked on top of each other" thing repeated again and again, yet I have never seen any documentation of this. Can someone provide me an FBI file or witness statement that says that bundles were "stacked on top of each other"?
Whether or not they were literally on top of each other or not, I do not know. But they were together. It's not as if he found one bundle here and then another one over there and a third one over there. According to his story (or his dad's story), he swept his arm across the sand and boom, there they were. Point is, they were all within inches of each other (which is what I meant by "practically" or "basically" stacked on top of each other). They were all in the same hole.
I think you have it right. I believe that Himmelsbach described it as the bundles were very close together, only a few inches apart, and two of them may have even been touching.
Also, the fact that the bundles were so close together is all that I need to say that they didn't drop from anywhere, not even a roof top.
Exactly. Touching or not, being in that close proximity to each other makes it an almost zero chance that they fell (or floated) independently without being in a bag.
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I think Flyjack's theory presents the possibility that the three packets may have been rubber banded together into one bundle and arrived at Tina Bar that way. Over time, the rubber band(s) degrade, break and erode away, allowing the packets to separate a bit as found.
As I always say, I am not advocating for that theory, just considering the possibility.
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I think Flyjack's theory presents the possibility that the three packets may have been rubber banded together into one bundle and arrived at Tina Bar that way. Over time, the rubber band(s) degrade, break and erode away, allowing the packets to separate a bit as found.
As I always say, I am not advocating for that theory, just considering the possibility.
Packets are not a banking term - only something Flyjack made up. The Seafirst bank did not prepare the money as Flyjack insists was done. The Seafirst employee that prepared the money for delivery to the plane was interviewed.
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I think Flyjack's theory presents the possibility that the three packets may have been rubber banded together into one bundle and arrived at Tina Bar that way. Over time, the rubber band(s) degrade, break and erode away, allowing the packets to separate a bit as found.
As I always say, I am not advocating for that theory, just considering the possibility.
Packets are not a banking term - only something Flyjack made up. The Seafirst bank did not prepare the money as Flyjack insists was done. The Seafirst employee that prepared the money for delivery to the plane was interviewed.
And if it was bundled as FJ claims, Cooper would not have been able to put such a large bundle in any pocket.
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I think Flyjack's theory presents the possibility that the three packets may have been rubber banded together into one bundle and arrived at Tina Bar that way. Over time, the rubber band(s) degrade, break and erode away, allowing the packets to separate a bit as found.
As I always say, I am not advocating for that theory, just considering the possibility.
Packets are not a banking term - only something Flyjack made up. The Seafirst bank did not prepare the money as Flyjack insists was done. The Seafirst employee that prepared the money for delivery to the plane was interviewed.
And if it was bundled as FJ claims, Cooper would not have been able to put such a large bundle in any pocket.
Just never mind and forget it. FJ and others demand packets .... so packets it will be come whatever may come. From now on, everyone can wrap the money however they want, to suit their needs. Bundolas, packets, whatever . . . bands or no bands. Bailing wire. Scotch tape. Tina Mucklow's hose! The issue has been settled once and for all.
I feel so much better! :congrats:
:rofl:
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Does anyone know if they taped the conversation with Cooper at any point? On the cockpit voice recorder? If yes, was it released on this forum?
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Does anyone know if they taped the conversation with Cooper at any point? On the cockpit voice recorder? If yes, was it released on this forum?
If Cooper's brief remarks over the Interphone were played over the cockpit speaker, as opposed to the headphones, then those remarks were probably recorded. HOWEVER, in 1971 the CVR's had rather limited capability and probably overwrote the previous recordings about ever 30 or 45 minutes.
Since it was about three full hours from the last words by Cooper over the Interphone until the aircraft landed in Reno, it is highly likely that the CVR remarks had been overwritten a number of times.
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<>in 1971 the CVR's had rather limited capability and probably overwrote the previous recordings about ever 30 or 45 minutes.
MSgt Wally Johnson, one of the two loadmasters on the sled test flight of 01.06.1972, indicated in his interview with the WSHS that aircraft N467US had a flight data recorder but no cockpit voice recorder:
WJ: "Jet aircraft are basically… all of them… work quite similar, you know, although the 727 that he skyjacked only had one black box. Now days they all have two, they have a voice and they have a mechanical."
WSHS: "Do you mind describing for us how the black box worked on that 727?"
WJ: "Yeah, it is all connected into the mechanical system. Everything is built in sections you know, one for environmental, the altimeters, stuff like that. The other one is how the engines operate and then they also have… sections of the dash one which covers the safety of the aircraft and that "
Source: Washington State Historical Society, document 2013.5.21.2, https://wshs-collections.s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/2013.5.21.2.pdf
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Does anyone know if they taped the conversation with Cooper at any point? On the cockpit voice recorder? If yes, was it released on this forum?
If Cooper's brief remarks over the Interphone were played over the cockpit speaker, as opposed to the headphones, then those remarks were probably recorded. HOWEVER, in 1971 the CVR's had rather limited capability and probably overwrote the previous recordings about ever 30 or 45 minutes.
Since it was about three full hours from the last words by Cooper over the Interphone until the aircraft landed in Reno, it is highly likely that the CVR remarks had been overwritten a number of times.
That sucks but that is pretty accurate from what I know about those recorders. But at least having his voice at all might shed light on him having an accent? And, who here would not want to hear his voice once? Someone here must know if they have him on tape? The FBI was supposed to release pretty much everything I thought? Or was it the radar from the tower they would not release? Nothing profitable would likely ever come from it. But it would be interesting to hear. They had pretty good audio recordings in 71 though. My favorite music of all time came from the 70s.
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Does anyone know if they taped the conversation with Cooper at any point? On the cockpit voice recorder? If yes, was it released on this forum?
If Cooper's brief remarks over the Interphone were played over the cockpit speaker, as opposed to the headphones, then those remarks were probably recorded. HOWEVER, in 1971 the CVR's had rather limited capability and probably overwrote the previous recordings about ever 30 or 45 minutes.
Since it was about three full hours from the last words by Cooper over the Interphone until the aircraft landed in Reno, it is highly likely that the CVR remarks had been overwritten a number of times.
That sucks but that is pretty accurate from what I know about those recorders. But at least having his voice at all might shed light on him having an accent? And, who here would not want to hear his voice once? Someone here must know if they have him on tape? The FBI was supposed to release pretty much everything I thought? Or was it the radar from the tower they would not release? Nothing profitable would likely ever come from it. But it would be interesting to hear. They had pretty good audio recordings in 71 though. My favorite music of all time came from the 70s.
Stews were asked to listen to recordings of suspects and say if it was Cooper's voice or not. The FBI had no recording of Cooper to work with but only asked the stews to work by memory - in all cases the stews said "no" the suspect was not Cooper. I dont have the time to search for those 302s at the moment ...
this has come up before...
*** ok I found one example. Guy called a radio station claiming to be Cooper. Station sent tape to FBI who consulted the stews ... they said not Cooper. The 302 is D.B. Cooper Part 21-13 DBC 6245 not coopers voice ...
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Cross posting from DropZone...
Does anyone remember which file went into detail on Richard McCoy? I remember the FBI had interviewed someone connected to McCoy who said he was home in Provo until at least mid-morning on the day of the hijacking, but I don't have it anywhere in my notes.
Also, does anyone know when McCoy checked into his hotel in Vegas on the 25th? And what about the time stamp on the gas station receipt?
Please and thank you.
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Cross posting from DropZone...
Does anyone remember which file went into detail on Richard McCoy? I remember the FBI had interviewed someone connected to McCoy who said he was home in Provo until at least mid-morning on the day of the hijacking, but I don't have it anywhere in my notes.
Also, does anyone know when McCoy checked into his hotel in Vegas on the 25th? And what about the time stamp on the gas station receipt?
Please and thank you.
Saw your post over there - there are 90+ files on McCoy ! They seem to concentrate in Parts 25, 45, and a few in 48. I skipped a few to speed things up. ;) Lets let Fly do this with his system ... GL. ;)
** I see FJ came up with a list -
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we have multiple files on Mccoy in the vault..
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we have multiple files on Mccoy in the vault..
Boy what a character he must have been. I would like to see one about his prison escape. I just learned the shootout he died in was in Virginia somewhere. He was like a modern day Dillinger as far as his reckless behaviour
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He made a fake gun from dental paste and him and others stole a garbage truck parked at the prison. I believe the gate was dragged for miles on the front of the truck when the went through it. they stole another car and got away. I don't remember how they found him.
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How the FBI found McCoy is a mystery. But the most compelling rumor is that the Feds leveraged McCoy's wife - eg: Tell us where he is the next time he calls ya, and we won't prosecute ya for being his getaway driver on the skyjacking.
O'Hara, the guy who shot and killed McCoy - and talks about it in the HBO docu - says he doesn't know how the tip came in, but intimated that Bernie knows. However, the docu director didn't discuss that with Bernie during their interview.
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NEW evidence on electrical tape by FLYJACK!
Red Plastic Tape is mentioned in the files..
But, in 1971 red electrical tape was for pros. Black was the common generic one.
Where would red tape be used?
Red electrical tape signifies ‘low voltage, phase B’
The sticks were reddish and looked like dynamite..
why bundle with rare red tape and not black?
Hahneman was an electrical engineer...
Therefore, red elect tape was unavailable to the public in 1971 - only to pro's (whoever they are) ;)
Nobody could or did buy red electrical tape in 71 due to its rarity -
You had to have a doctor's prescription to buy RARE red electrical tape in 1971.
Hahneman was an electrical engineer... and the only person on Earth who could buy red electrical tape in 1971.
Red electrical tape is tantamount to a dna profile in the Cooper case. Hahneman was DB Cooper.
FLYJACK solved the case on 11/24/2020. Case closed! >:(
Woooooops! - Vintage 1940s 50s and 60s Red Electrical tape tin | Etsy
www.etsy.com › market › electrical_tape_tin Vintage 1940s 3M Red Plaid Scotch Electrical Tape Tin No 33 and No 177 ... Vintage 1950s to 1960s Red/Green/Yellow Round Scotch Electrical Tape No. https://www.etsy.com/market/electrical_tape_tin
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Never heard of any type of tape requiring any kind of restrictions or prescription. it doesn't make sense to restrict something like that. you could buy the wire but not the tape?
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Never heard of any type of tape requiring any kind of restrictions or prescription. it doesn't make sense to restrict something like that. you could buy the wire but not the tape?
Fly's post is nonsense. I first used red electrical tape in the 1950s with my Erector set ... bought it at Jim's Hardware in my hometown .... 50 cents? Peddled there on my bike and asked for it. They had black, blue, red, green, yellow, and white as I recall. Colored tape then was like stickers for kids today! Kids had it on their bikes, ....
First it was language issues, now its cultural history! FJ must live in a cave in Transylvania?
:rofl:
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33 was black tape....35 was the red
Looking further it appears the numbers don't tell the color..
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33 was black tape....35 was the red
Looking further it appears the numbers don't tell the color..
I have a feeling electrical tape goes back to WWII, maybe WWI!
When Fly says it was rare and only pros like his suspect could get it - my eyes widen and I freeze. Funny.
I guess he is saying Cooper was a professional electrician ... was he a Union man? ;)
Tomorrow he will deny saying this and blame me!
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January 1946, inventors Snell, Oace, and Eastwold of 3M applied for a patent for a vinyl electrical tape with a plasticizer system and non-sulfur-based rubber adhesive that were compatible. The first commercially available version of the tape was sold for use as a wire-harness wrapping.
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January 1946, inventors Snell, Oace, and Eastwold of 3M applied for a patent for a vinyl electrical tape with a plasticizer system and non-sulfur-based rubber adhesive that were compatible. The first commercially available version of the tape was sold for use as a wire-harness wrapping.
FJ replies today: Quote:
"According to a witness, Cooper's bomb was wrapped with red plastic electrical tape.
Red electrical tape was rare 50 years ago. The common one was black.
In the electrical field red electrical tape signifies "low voltage, phase B".
The fact that Cooper used red electrical tape instead of black is a legitimate point. "
FLYJACK KNOWS ALL! :congrats:
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wrapping the sticks with tape would be extremely obvious. this doesn't match the original description. the FBI would of been able to figure out it was fake if this was the case.
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wrapping the sticks with tape would be extremely obvious. this doesn't match the original description. the FBI would of been able to figure out it was fake if this was the case.
I dont recall any testimony from Tina saying 'red electrical tape'. I will look it up ...
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they are saying the bomb or dynamite was wrapped in red electrical tape and not the sticks..I believe the original states "some sort of tape holding them together" something like that.
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they are saying the bomb or dynamite was wrapped in red electrical tape and not the sticks..I believe the original states "some sort of tape holding them together" something like that.
Here is Tina's total testimony word for word - from all files. I prepared a file for the Marine guy here who was going to duplicate the bomb and test it ...
Tina testimony is:
Her best recollection is that it was while he told her he wanted no “funny stuff” that he partially opened the briefcase more and he permitted her to see the contents (of the case).
She recalls the contents of the case as approximately eight cylindrical objects about six to eight inches long with four of the items being placed on top of the others and banded together with tape. She also recalls some covered and uncovered wiring running from the cylindrical objects to a dry cell type battery which had terminals on one end. She could not recall if the wires were connected to the terminals. The battery was described as approximately eight inches long and about two and one-half in diameter. She states that she had the impression seeing the contents that (it could be) dynamite; however, she is unfamiliar with the (exact) appearance of dynamite and could only describe it as stated above, adding that it (the sticks) were a “reddish rusty color”.
Mucklow sat next to the man and shortly thereafter he opened a black cheap appearing imitation leather attache case and showed her a device, with eight red cylindarsand a wire running from the cylindars toward a large 6x8x2” battery. The wire had a red plastic coating on it except for the last inch which was bare and the man was holding between his fingers. He told (me) it was an electronic device and suggested the aircraft radio be used as little as possible. He then said ‘he didn’t think radio transmissions would bother it, but he wanted the crew warned’ .
(7:55pm pst) NWA - MSPFO asked for stewardess best recollection of exact content
of HJ briefcase. She got on radio and gave the following basic information:
_ Eight red sticks, about 6” x1” in left corner of brief case. “Look like big
firecrackers.” Two rows of sticks. Four on top of four.
_ Wire attached to dynamite with red insulation.
_ Battery “like flashlight battery but about 6” high and as big around as my
arm”.
_ Red sticks are about the color “of my uniform”.
7:57 pm t1 [ Mucklow describes bomb to Gnd Control …]
MSP: Have stewardess describe to you the brief case contents. Understand red dynamite sticks wire and battery
305: Mucklow: In briefcase left corner had 8 sticks of dynamite about 6 inches
long and 1 inch in diameter. Two rows of them then a wire out of there.
Then a battery like, a flashlight battery only as thick as my arm and 8
inches long.
MSP: Roger.
There is nothing about red tape in any of this ... FJ says its in some FBI file ? which file where ?
FLYJACK's source as usual is one 302 ... not actual Tina testimony. FJ always goes for some outlyer document while also saying 302s are not trustworthy! FJ uses 302s wen its convenient then dismisses them a minute later as unreliable. That has been his technique since he first surfaced years ago ... here is his 302 - I will look it up...
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Yes, there is one file stating this. I don't have it right now. my computer took a bad turn and I'm trying to get it back up and running. this is my good computer.
Even with different statements it's hard to really say what it was banded with. it would of been more obvious if it was black. through the 50's even into the 80's were the electronics period IMO. lots of kits to build. heathkit was one of the more famous. erector sets. millions in CB and Ham operators did electrical work. red tape is even used during Christmas. even chemistry sets that were dangerous as hell lol..
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Yes, there is one file stating this. I don't have it right now. my computer took a bad turn and I'm trying to get it back up and running. this is my good computer.
Even with different statements it's hard to really say what it was banded with. it would of been more obvious if it was black. through the 50's even into the 80's were the electronics period IMO. lots of kits to build. heathkit was one of the more famous. erector sets. millions in CB and Ham operators did electrical work. red tape is even used during Christmas. even chemistry sets that were dangerous as hell lol..
As usual FJ gives no locator info! Its file DBC 1532 wherever that is! FJ always wants to make things as obscure/difficult as possible.
THERE IS NO DIRECT TINA TESTIMONY THAT SAYS 'RED ELECTRICAL TAPE" - NONE! ONLY FJ'S 302 HE WONT LOCATE/IDENTIFY!
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You posted file 1532...that's part 10 of 52
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Yes, there is one file stating this. I don't have it right now. my computer took a bad turn and I'm trying to get it back up and running. this is my good computer.
Even with different statements it's hard to really say what it was banded with. it would of been more obvious if it was black. through the 50's even into the 80's were the electronics period IMO. lots of kits to build. heathkit was one of the more famous. erector sets. millions in CB and Ham operators did electrical work. red tape is even used during Christmas. even chemistry sets that were dangerous as hell lol..
As usual FJ gives no locator info! Its file DBC 1532 wherever that is! FJ always wants to make things as obscure/difficult as possible.
THERE IS NO DIRECT TINA TESTIMONY THAT SAYS 'RED ELECTRICAL TAPE" - NONE! ONLY FJ'S 302 HE WONT LOCATE/IDENTIFY!
OK I found it. FJ's page is part of a very early seven page general synopsis of the case dated 11/25/71 ! The summary is not meant to be a certified factual statement of anything~! THIS IS A FUCKING JOKE PERPETRATED ONCE MORE BY FLYJACK!
The seven page series starts D.B. Cooper Part 10 page 302 and ends with D.B. Cooper Part 10 page 308. Which is DBC 1529-1535.
There it is. FJ's contention is an outlier and bogus nonesense based on an early 302 that was not totally factual ... as usual. And FJ knows it@!
This is a classic example of FLYJACK fringe work.
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10 of 10?
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10 of 10?
sorry I corrected it.
Part 10 pages 302-308. Which is DBC 1529-1535.
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Her original statement only says banded with tape. obviously it wasn't black or she and the others would of noticed.
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Her original statement only says banded with tape. obviously it wasn't black or she and the others would of noticed.
She describes one wire as being 'red coated' .... not the sticks! I will find the quote.
What is important here is the 302 FJ is citing is an outlier. Its a very early 302 trying to bring people up to speed on the case - no facts are dead certain at the time.
Tinas words are: The wire had a red plastic coating on it except for the last inch which was bare .
There is nothing about the sticks being wrapped in RED ELECTRICAL TAPE! So far as I can tell, Tina never said that - period.
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Agreed, but as I mentioned it was obviously banded with something and it wasn't black?
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If it turns out being red masking tape I'm pretty sure it doesn't make you a painter.. :rofl:
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Flo says about the same.."bundled as though they were taped together" this means the color was similar.
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Flo says about the same.."bundled as though they were taped together" this means the color was similar.
FJ is still trying to cobble something together that proves red electrician's tape - he has dropped his instance red elect tape was rare! Guess he has lost that one. :o
As I said, his page comes from a 7 page case summary identified above. There were case summaries issued almost monthly (along with monthly suspect counts) from the beginning of NORJAK almost to the end, yearly. From Part 8 clear through to Part 52. There are dozens of them all multi page documents.
The only mention of colored parts in the bomb were as follows:
Wire attached to dynamite with red insulation.
Red sticks are about the color “of my uniform”.
Sticks banded together with tape. (no color given)
(the sticks) were a “reddish rusty color”.
The wire had a red plastic coating on it except for the last inch which was bare and the man was holding between his fingers.
That's it. ! Sticks banded together with tape. (no color given)
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The next time you quote someone put it in quotations or in the quote box. you said a lot of things FJ never stated.
As for the red tape. it's possible but trying to make a claim of certain people using red tape is a stretch. especially if you have a suspect. how do we know Cooper didn't run out of black tape or didn't want the bomb to look like what is seen on television? an electronic engineer would have every type?
If you watch crime shows you often see them caught on video buying things for the crime vs using what you have at home. what changed the stews mind from the original statement to knowing exactly what kind of tape it was?
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The next time you quote someone put it in quotations or in the quote box. you said a lot of things FJ never stated.
As for the red tape. it's possible but trying to make a claim of certain people using red tape is a stretch. especially if you have a suspect. how do we know Cooper didn't run out of black tape or didn't want the bomb to look like what is seen on television? an electronic engineer would have every type?
If you watch crime shows you often see them caught on video buying things for the crime vs using what you have at home. what changed the stews mind from the original statement to knowing exactly what kind of tape it was?
If Cooper had come to my house in 1956 he would have had his choice of every color of el tape available. All kept in my Erector Set box. Under my bed. I apologize to FLYJACK for not getting his permission to have them - FJ might not have been born yet!
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I was talking about memory with Mark Bennett, while looking at tape I found the tape I always seen in the house. my mom used the hell out of it. it's Scotch brand plastic tape. the box says "decorate-repair. it's very similar to electrical tape. the box caught my attention from seeing it in the kitchen drawers. I haven't sized the photo yet..
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He made a fake gun from dental paste and him and others stole a garbage truck parked at the prison. I believe the gate was dragged for miles on the front of the truck when the went through it. they stole another car and got away. I don't remember how they found him.
So he used a "soap gun" as they are commonly called in prison? What a FINK that friend turned out to be
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I doubt it had anything to do with prison politics. he got the job in the dental office specifically to make the gun for escaping. McCoy was pretty much an overnight criminal. his record didn't indicate any criminal activity. he even wanted to get into law enforcement and was a decorated vet. he was on duty after the hijacking and helped look for himself in a helicopter. that's balls of steel right there.
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I’ve often wondered if a sketch of the “bomb” existed. If so, it would be interesting to have an electrical engineer take a look and determine if it could be an actual working device.
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I made a mockup of the bomb. I even made a detonator with a drycell battery the way I believe it was made.
It's not very hard to figure out. the dynamite needs a shockwave or small explosion to be set off. that's where a detonator/blasting cap comes into play. the cap is a small electrical device that sets off the dynamite. it needs an ignition source which would be a battery. the caps is inserted into the end of the dynamite. this has two wires coming from the cap. those are connected to an electrical source to set it off and make the dynamite explode. nothing is required in between the cap and battery. If the bomb was real, which nobody knows for certain Cooper apparently left one wire off or broken that stops the full circuit. connecting the wire would complete the circuit allowing the cap to explode and set off the dynamite. even if the bomb was fake he appears to have what was needed to make it appear real. one cap would be enough to set all the sticks off since it would also create a shockwave. his configuration is very plausible. I think Parrot would agree with what I have explained.
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I’ve often wondered if a sketch of the “bomb” existed. If so, it would be interesting to have an electrical engineer take a look and determine if it could be an actual working device.
see old posts on the subject
if the sticks were flares, even with a blasting cap, the socalled bomb would not explode.
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Correct, but appears to be wired as so. he also mentions interuption with radio signals setting the bomb off. that wouldn't happen the way it's wired.
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Here is my bomb..the sticks are 1" in diameter and about 8" long. the blasting cap is about 3". they range in different sizes. the battery is about 2" in diameter and 6" tall and has an actual vintage battery label I pulled from the net..
You connect the two wires from the cap to the battery and it will set the cap off..
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Correct, but appears to be wired as so. he also mentions interuption with radio signals setting the bomb off. that wouldn't happen the way it's wired.
Back in the 1960s/1970s, when dynamite was still being used in road construction projects, it was common to see signs that said dynamite was being used and to turn off CB radios when in a construction project. Cooper may have just been throwing that comment in for good measure.
I don't know what frequency range CB radios used, but aircraft transmitters use the VHF and higher range.
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If any remote ignition sources were used then this rule would apply. remotes uses frequencies to communicate. today is the same with everything wireless. the standard wiring described here wouldn't apply. static electricity would?
CB.... 26.965 to 27.405 MHz
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If any remote ignition sources were used then this rule would apply. remotes uses frequencies to communicate. today is the same with everything wireless. the standard wiring described here wouldn't apply. static electricity would?
CB.... 26.965 to 27.405 MHz
How much damage would eight sticks of dynamite do ? The range of its destruction zone? Why 8 sticks vs two? What is Cooper trying to convey? By showing his bomb he knows its going to be described over the radio...
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It would of destroyed the plane.
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It would of destroyed the plane.
Short of that happening, what is Cooper's plan for controlling the passengers and potential Marshals he asks about being on the plane?
After landing at SEA he allows/orders Tina to leave the plane ... he allows others to then come and go from the plane freely! He has no direct control over the front of the plane!
Whats he going to do if the crew leaves with only he and Tina left on the plane? His zone of control turns out NOT to be so complete after all - he has no means of comunication with anyone should everypne leave the plane - he cant talk to ground control ? . . .
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Cooper has made a HUGE TACTICAL MISTAKE. What's he going to do if everyone but Tina escapes the plane? Is he going to tell Tina to fuel and fly the plane...
This hijacking did not need to go the way it went. There were options. Has Mr. Cooper considered that! ? Cooper is in the dark - Cooper is an idealist idiot! The power can shift against him quickly ... he has no power beyond his bomb and convincing others to cooperate. All Cooper apparently has is the threat of his bomb ... and others deciding to back down and play ball . . . others would have decided not to play Cooper's game and end this drama.
Cooper is no cult hero! He is a vulnerable target if people decide to take that route!
:rofl:
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I grew up on a small farm in Clackamas, Oregon which is a suburb of Portland. My Dad bought vacant acreage that had been cleared of fir trees but stumps left everywhere. He used dynamite to help clear the land of stumps by simply using dynamite with dynamite caps which were regularly available at a local store in Clackamas. Between the dynamite and a tractor the land was quickly cleared. Wouldn’t a battery be required to set off Cooper’s bomb ?
Did Tina mention a battery ? I’m no expert here but WOW ...... 8 sticks of dynamite Would destroy the plane I would think !
Happy Thanksgiving to everyone ! Stay healthy and safe !
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Flo or Tina said the battery was 6 or 8 inches long and as big around as her forearm. She said it had terminals on one end. Hager said it was the same batteries that they used to power their headlamps and floodlights when they were hunting raccoons at night.
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I just posted a pic of the battery along with the dynamite and blasting cap..yes, a battery was seen and required..the dry cell batteries were originally designed for telephones. it replaced the crank generators that use to supply the power.
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Cooper has made a HUGE TACTICAL MISTAKE. What's he going to do if everyone but Tina escapes the plane? Is he going to tell Tina to fuel and fly the plane...
This hijacking did not need to go the way it went. There were options. Has Mr. Cooper considered that! ? Cooper is in the dark - Cooper is an idealist idiot! The power can shift against him quickly ... he has no power beyond his bomb and convincing others to cooperate. All Cooper apparently has is the threat of his bomb ... and others deciding to back down and play ball . . . others would have decided not to play Cooper's game and end this drama.
Cooper is no cult hero! He is a vulnerable target if people decide to take that route!
:rofl:
The flight crew had ropes in the cockpit for escape purposes if they ever needed to get out of the aircraft in a hurry. They could have left the aircraft without being seen by Cooper or him even having knowledge of their departure and they considered doing so. But Tina was never in a position so that she could be removed by the people on the ground. The flight crew would not leave unless Tina could also escape. They would not abandon her.
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If any remote ignition sources were used then this rule would apply. remotes uses frequencies to communicate. today is the same with everything wireless. the standard wiring described here wouldn't apply. static electricity would?
CB.... 26.965 to 27.405 MHz
In 1971 the only transmitters/receivers on an airliner operated on a frequency band roughly somewhere between 110 MHz and slightly over 1000 MHz. They also had navigation receivers (no transmitter capability) that operated on and below the standard radio broadcast bands.
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Cooper has made a HUGE TACTICAL MISTAKE. What's he going to do if everyone but Tina escapes the plane? Is he going to tell Tina to fuel and fly the plane...
This hijacking did not need to go the way it went. There were options. Has Mr. Cooper considered that! ? Cooper is in the dark - Cooper is an idealist idiot! The power can shift against him quickly ... he has no power beyond his bomb and convincing others to cooperate. All Cooper apparently has is the threat of his bomb ... and others deciding to back down and play ball . . . others would have decided not to play Cooper's game and end this drama.
Cooper is no cult hero! He is a vulnerable target if people decide to take that route!
:rofl:
The flight crew had ropes in the cockpit for escape purposes if they ever needed to get out of the aircraft in a hurry. They could have left the aircraft without being seen by Cooper or him even having knowledge of their departure and they considered doing so. But Tina was never in a position so that she could be removed by the people on the ground. The flight crew would not leave unless Tina could also escape. They would not abandon her.
Thank you. We know.
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Does anyone know the name of the passenger to whom George Labisonniere, in his interview, referred as the "man in the cowboy hat"?
I have received a letter from a passenger who was on Flight 305 on 11.24.1971. On the flight, he wore a cowboy hat and a western cut coat. He still has the hat. He is not the "cowboy" to whom George Labisonniere referred in his interview with the FBI.
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Does anyone know the name of the passenger to whom George Labisonniere, in his interview, referred as the "man in the cowboy hat"?
I have received a letter from a passenger who was on Flight 305 on 11.24.1971. On the flight, he wore a cowboy hat and a western cut coat. He still has the hat. He is not the "cowboy" to whom George Labisonniere referred in his interview with the FBI.
That's pretty cool, nice work.
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What does he say about the hijacking, DFS?
Would you be willing to share his contact information? I'd love to chat with him.
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Does anyone know the name of the passenger to whom George Labisonniere, in his interview, referred as the "man in the cowboy hat"?
I have received a letter from a passenger who was on Flight 305 on 11.24.1971. On the flight, he wore a cowboy hat and a western cut coat. He still has the hat. He is not the "cowboy" to whom George Labisonniere referred in his interview with the FBI.
Please share. Sounds compelling.
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What does he say about the hijacking, DFS? Would you be willing to share his contact information?
The passenger does not want his contact details to be made public, but I suppose that I can share the following, which is the only substantive information that he provided:
"I don't recall having any kind of incident with any of the passengers, I was at the front of the first class section. Actually, I had a front row seat to see the FBI guys come thru the access door in the front of the plane with the money and parachutes, after they were back there for a while everyone left the plane thru that door and down the portable stairs they had rolled up to the plane. We all walked to the terminal from the plane.
D.B.Cooper was in the back of the plane so I never did see him. I remember it was shortly after we left Portland, Oregon that the no smoking light came on and the Captain asked we remain in our seats with our seat belts fastened."
Since he did not interact with the hijacker, he could not have been the "cowboy" mentioned by George Labissoniere.
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I agree with FJ that something is wrong. passengers also seen Tina go outside the aircraft. I don't believe any of them seen the chutes. will have to read the 302's again..Tina gives detailed information about getting the money. I believe the passengers were gone when the chutes arrived?
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Every passenger I have talked with describe two men coming onboard to deliver to money. In fact, one, Larry Finegold, knew one of the men, who was an FBI agent named "John" that Larry knew from the courts.
Yes, Shut, you are correct. Most information we have indicates that the passengers left after the money was received by Cooper. After the passengers left, then Tina went to get the chutes.
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What would be the reason to cover up such a trivial thing? Spreckel gave a statement of Tina going out of the plane, along with the crew?
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I agree with FJ that something is wrong. passengers also seen Tina go outside the aircraft. I don't believe any of them seen the chutes. will have to read the 302's again..Tina gives detailed information about getting the money. I believe the passengers were gone when the chutes arrived?
The money and parachutes arrived at the same time in a car containing Al Lee and the Seattle detective who picked up the money at the bank and transported it to SEATAC. The 302s have Tina making several trips from the airplane to the car and carrying the money and all four parachutes to Cooper. She would have had to make four round trips at least.
Finegold may have known the Seattle detective but the FBI didn't have any business at the aircraft since NWA told the FBI that they were going to cooperate with the Cooper.
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Posted by FJ..he changed his story...
It was not long after the jet landed that Finegold became perhaps the first passenger to learn what was really going on. A man boarded the plane and came down the aisle. Finegold recognized him as an FBI agent he’d worked with before on federal cases.
“He said, ‘Larry, there’s a skyjacker on the plane, and we’re gonna get you off the plane in a couple minutes,’ then he walks [toward the rear of the cabin] because I think there was an exchange,” Finegold said. “This was happening behind me. [The FBI agent] was bringing on the money and the parachutes.”
Phone Interview with Larry Finegold Transcription: “Cooper” August 17, 2012
Finally, after a few minutes of what seemed like loading fuel on the plane, the front door opened, and they told people they could start exiting the plane – there was an announcement made – and the first person that I saw down as I, cause we were just de-planing out on the runway and going down just a set of stairs that they had rolled up, first person I saw that I recognized was an FBI agent who I knew because I was assisting the United States Attorney at the time, and I said to him, “John, what in the world’s going on?” and he said, “Larry, just keep going, there’s a skyjacker on the plane.” And that’s the first thing I knew about the skyjacking.
The phone interview makes the most sense..
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Posted by FJ..he changed his story...
It was not long after the jet landed that Finegold became perhaps the first passenger to learn what was really going on. A man boarded the plane and came down the aisle. Finegold recognized him as an FBI agent he’d worked with before on federal cases.
“He said, ‘Larry, there’s a skyjacker on the plane, and we’re gonna get you off the plane in a couple minutes,’ then he walks [toward the rear of the cabin] because I think there was an exchange,” Finegold said. “This was happening behind me. [The FBI agent] was bringing on the money and the parachutes.”
Phone Interview with Larry Finegold Transcription: “Cooper” August 17, 2012
Finally, after a few minutes of what seemed like loading fuel on the plane, the front door opened, and they told people they could start exiting the plane – there was an announcement made – and the first person that I saw down as I, cause we were just de-planing out on the runway and going down just a set of stairs that they had rolled up, first person I saw that I recognized was an FBI agent who I knew because I was assisting the United States Attorney at the time, and I said to him, “John, what in the world’s going on?” and he said, “Larry, just keep going, there’s a skyjacker on the plane.” And that’s the first thing I knew about the skyjacking.
The phone interview makes the most sense..
The phone interview may make the most sense, but it's not what Larry Feingold told me, which was supported by several other passengers - that two men brought the money onboard and transferred it to Tina at the front of the passenger cabin. Then all the passengers deplaned.
The passenger who told me that he was informed of the skyjacking by an FBI agent at the bottom of the stairs was Bill Mitchell.
I'm not sure where FJ is getting his information from. It kinda sounds like me and what I've written about the passengers, such as at the MN.
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The money and parachutes arrived at the same time in a car containing Al Lee and the Seattle detective who picked up the money at the bank and transported it to SEATAC. The 302s have Tina making several trips from the airplane to the car and carrying the money and all four parachutes to Cooper. She would have had to make four round trips at least.
Finegold may have known the Seattle detective but the FBI didn't have any business at the aircraft since NWA told the FBI that they were going to cooperate with the Cooper.
Larry was quite specific: FBI agent; his name was John.
It also begs the question of how many people accompanied the money and chutes and rode in the NWO vehicle with Al Lee. Geoffrey Gray writes, and I've seen it corroborated in some 302 floating around, that an FAA official also was part of the group and boarded 305 to apprise Mr. Cooper that what he was doing "risked grave consequences," or words to that effect.
So, we have a few guys: Al Lee, Owen McKenna - the SPD homicide decretive - and the unnamed FAA fellow. FBI docs claim at least one of them boarded 305. Maybe only two did, and the "FAA" guy was really the FBI agent named John, and the Bureau is covering that up at the moment.
In terms of the discussion at the moment, it is hard to understand how a Seattle police officer got involved in an FBI action, namely, transporting their money. Maybe it was a mutual assistance kind of thing since all the feds were at the airport and no one was downtown to get the moolah. Regardless, it is harder to understand how Larry Finegold, a federal prosecutor, would know a Seattle homicide detective. McKenna's court appearances would be in Washington state courts, not the federal ones where Larry was working.
Unless Seattle is a small town and everyone knows everyone else.
Lastly, I had a very lengthy and interesting conversation with Larry about the FBI and the truthfulness of the official Norjak narrative. Larry is circumspect about what the FBI says happened. He has clearly been around the block a few times, but I did not find him cynical or jaded. Actually, I found him to be a very calm, wise, cognizant individual.
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The money and parachutes arrived at the same time in a car containing Al Lee and the Seattle detective who picked up the money at the bank and transported it to SEATAC. The 302s have Tina making several trips from the airplane to the car and carrying the money and all four parachutes to Cooper. She would have had to make four round trips at least.
Finegold may have known the Seattle detective but the FBI didn't have any business at the aircraft since NWA told the FBI that they were going to cooperate with the Cooper.
Larry was quite specific: FBI agent; his name was John.
It also begs the question of how many people accompanied the money and chutes and rode in the NWO vehicle with Al Lee. Geoffrey Gray writes, and I've seen it corroborated in some 302 floating around, that an FAA official also was part of the group and boarded 305 to apprise Mr. Cooper that what he was doing "risked grave consequences," or words to that effect.
So, we have a few guys: Al Lee, Owen McKenna - the SPD homicide decretive - and the unnamed FAA fellow. FBI docs claim at least one of them boarded 305. Maybe only two did, and the "FAA" guy was really the FBI agent named John, and the Bureau is covering that up at the moment.
In terms of the discussion at the moment, it is hard to understand how a Seattle police officer got involved in an FBI action, namely, transporting their money. Maybe it was a mutual assistance kind of thing since all the feds were at the airport and no one was downtown to get the moolah. Regardless, it is harder to understand how Larry Finegold, a federal prosecutor, would know a Seattle homicide detective. McKenna's court appearances would be in Washington state courts, not the federal ones where Larry was working.
Unless Seattle is a small town and everyone knows everyone else.
Lastly, I had a very lengthy and interesting conversation with Larry about the FBI and the truthfulness of the official Norjak narrative. Larry is circumspect about what the FBI says happened. He has clearly been around the block a few times, but I did not find him cynical or jaded. Actually, I found him to be a very calm, wise, cognizant individual.
Why would an "FAA" guy climb to the top of the stairs and hope to have a conversation with Cooper? Unless Cooper was the dumbest fellow on the Earth that night, he already knew he was in trouble.
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Larry was quite specific: FBI agent; his name was John.
Specific enough to have two stories and failure in giving a last name for conformation?
It's never wise to just popup into a hostage situation without negotiations or acting as a crew member or employee as cover. you would think Cooper was watching that door, unless the curtain blocked his view?
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The phone interview may make the most sense, but it's not what Larry Feingold told me, which was supported by several other passengers - that two men brought the money onboard and transferred it to Tina at the front of the passenger cabin. Then all the passengers deplaned.
I see several problems. Spreckel (passenger) gives a similar statement made by the crew. how many people read the article about this story?
Cooper was aware of who should be on the plane after it lands in Seattle. why would he allow someone unknown to walk down the isle towards him? all the passengers said a woman/blonde/stew walked down the isle with a bag/money etc. not one mentions a male involved. as mentioned before, it's not wise to do something like this when you have a hostage situation. the flight crew watched her go outside, even stating they could of escaped leaving Cooper alone on the plane.
People like to inject themselves into things. that goes for law enforcement as well. I don't see a benefit in covering this up.
What is the jurisdiction of the FAA in something like this?
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The phone interview may make the most sense, but it's not what Larry Feingold told me, which was supported by several other passengers - that two men brought the money onboard and transferred it to Tina at the front of the passenger cabin. Then all the passengers deplaned.
I see several problems. Spreckel (passenger) gives a similar statement made by the crew. how many people read the article about this story?
Cooper was aware of who should be on the plane after it lands in Seattle. why would he allow someone unknown to walk down the isle towards him? all the passengers said a woman/blonde/stew walked down the isle with a bag/money etc. not one mentions a male involved. as mentioned before, it's not wise to do something like this when you have a hostage situation. the flight crew watched her go outside, even stating they could of escaped leaving Cooper alone on the plane.
People like to inject themselves into things. that goes for law enforcement as well. I don't see a benefit in covering this up.
What is the jurisdiction of the FAA in something like this?
The FAA's only role that night was to comply with any request related to air traffic control matters. They did not have any law enforcement duties as such. The FBI agents on site were responsible for that and they had agreed with NWA to not interfere in the matter at that point.
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I fail to see any reasoning for the FAA to even be around? wasn't called the FAA at the time, was it?
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The phone interview may make the most sense, but it's not what Larry Feingold told me, which was supported by several other passengers - that two men brought the money onboard and transferred it to Tina at the front of the passenger cabin. Then all the passengers deplaned.
I see several problems. Spreckel (passenger) gives a similar statement made by the crew. how many people read the article about this story?
Cooper was aware of who should be on the plane after it lands in Seattle. why would he allow someone unknown to walk down the isle towards him? all the passengers said a woman/blonde/stew walked down the isle with a bag/money etc. not one mentions a male involved. as mentioned before, it's not wise to do something like this when you have a hostage situation. the flight crew watched her go outside, even stating they could of escaped leaving Cooper alone on the plane.
People like to inject themselves into things. that goes for law enforcement as well. I don't see a benefit in covering this up.
What is the jurisdiction of the FAA in something like this?
As I have stated many times and written, the story I have received from Larry Finegold and several other passengers is that two men entered 305 with the money. Note: one passenger says they carried a bank bag each, for a total of two bags of money, even though that is implausible.
In the forward part of the plane they delivered the money to Tina, who carried it down the aisle way to the rear of the plane where she gave it to Cooper.
Yes, many people saw Tina carry the money bag down the aisle, mostly notably Jack Almstad, who clearly saw stacks of money sticking out, and that is when he knew a skyjacking was probably in progress.
What "John" the FBI agent did after giving the money bag to Tina is unclear. He apparently walked down the aisle way as far as Row 6 where Larry Finegold was sitting, and he may have continued even further. What happened after that - who stopped him, where, and how he got turned around and departed the plane - I don't know as I have no information on that.
I have no idea why an FAA official would want to board the plane, or even be allowed by the FBI. I have no corroboration on that happenstance, either. Personally, I assume the "FAA" story is a spin job to cover for the presence of an FBI agent aboard 305.
So there are three scenarios to consider:
1. The official story is correct: Tina walked down the airstairs, picked up the SeaFirst money bag from Al Lee and Det. Owen McKenna and carried it onto 305, giving it directly to Cooper in Row 18.
2. John the FBI agent and Another Guy (Al Lee? Owen McKenna?) came onboard and delivered the money bag to Tina by the forward door, as per Larry Finegold and several passengers.
3. Tina got the money, as per #1 above, and some FAA Guy boarded the plane at the same time, and stayed for an undetermined period of time, as per rumors and a solitary 302.
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Phone Interview with Larry Finegold Transcription: “Cooper” August 17, 2012
Finally, after a few minutes of what seemed like loading fuel on the plane, the front door opened, and they told people they could start exiting the plane – there was an announcement made – and the first person that I saw down as I, cause we were just de-planing out on the runway and going down just a set of stairs that they had rolled up, first person I saw that I recognized was an FBI agent who I knew because I was assisting the United States Attorney at the time, and I said to him, “John, what in the world’s going on?” and he said, “Larry, just keep going, there’s a skyjacker on the plane.” And that’s the first thing I knew about the skyjacking.
The above is Larry too? his credibility is damaged.
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Yes, it is.
It may also point to another dynamic, namely, why or how would Larry Finegold be convinced to change his story. FBI pressure?
Also, we have the dynamic of age and forgetfulness.
Further, we have the desire for embellishment, fame and glory.
However, Larry Finegold seems like a very stand-up guy. He is a very successful attorney, with offices in Seattle and Tel Aviv. He owns several homes in Israel and the United States. He speaks in a mature, thoughtful manner, reflecting a man who is secure and accomplished.
He is not a fame-junkie, apparently, as he told me that he has turned down many requests for interviews, including one from Oprah Winfrey. He and I had a wonderful chat on our first phone call, but he has never responded to my subsequent requests. I assume he feels that he has told me everything he has to tell, and doesn't desire to spend any more time on the phone with me.
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The phone conversation was in 2012..the other story was in 2018, if not mistaken?
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Finegold gave the phone interview in 2012. this sounds extremely plausible and believable. the story of agents coming onto the plane started in 2017/18.
You can have Olympic gold metals around your neck while telling whoppers..
IMO, it doesn't benefit anything hiding or creating some alternative ending? it can't forward or damper the case what so ever?
You would think that after hearing something like that and then watch your friend walk to the back of the cabin you would turn around to look?
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I fail to see any reasoning for the FAA to even be around? wasn't called the FAA at the time, was it?
Decades previously, what is now the FAA (Federal Aviation Agency) was known as the CAA (Civil Aeronautics Administration) if I remember correctly.
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I fail to see any reasoning for the FAA to even be around? wasn't called the FAA at the time, was it?
Decades previously, what is now the FAA (Federal Aviation Agency) was known as the CAA (Civil Aeronautics Administration) if I remember correctly.
It's a little confusing because the CAA split into the CAB as well.
Still not sure exactly what administration was in place. typically, you make the correction when discussing something decades ago. "the FAA was known as the CAA back in that period"
Update: the FAA was the proper term in 1971. it's noted in the transcripts being involved in the conference calls..
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I have no idea why an FAA official would want to board the plane, or even be allowed by the FBI. I have no corroboration on that happenstance, either. Personally, I assume the "FAA" story is a spin job to cover for the presence of an FBI agent aboard 305.
It just doesn't make any sense for any type of aviation administration putting themselves into something they are not trained for or authorized to do. if you don't have any agreement with a suspect to enter a hostage situation you are asking for trouble. big trouble. would of been better off just rushing him vs trying to get close. I think they were a little bit cautious from what happened with November 58.
4:12 Cooper says if anything hinders things he will detonate the bomb.
4:38 he allows any vehicles needed "as long as no funny stuff"
5:01 No stalling and start fueling, stew to pickup money.
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I finally got a response from McNally about the stairs..will post his response in a couple minutes..
Monday 3:40 p.m. Stairs----I had the co-pilot open it. He was worried he'd be sucked out and jumped 6' forward as soon as he pushed the lever. I told him I wanted the plane moving at 500 ground speed. He said at that speed I couldn't get out. So he talked to the pilot on the phone to have him adjust speed until it was open 3'. When I was ready to go, I very carefully slowly went down feet first on my ass. When I got to the second stair, I put both legs down to see the push as wind moved the legs. Then I slowly moved my body so that I was facing down.....and eased my body out until I was holding on only by both hands. Then looked up into the plane and thought that if they knew I was in this position they could easily shot me. Then I released my hands and moved away from the plane and was going down feet first at 300 mph. Somehow, don't know how, my body was facing Earth as my hands and legs were out as I flew down. Thought, this is balls. As I was getting ready to pull the ripcord I moved my right arm slowly....and because I left my left arm extended.... I went into a panic spin..... don't remember pulling the ripcord.... chute opened 2' and hit me in the face !!!! Then I slapped my left arm to left leg to make sure I had the mail bag.....it was gone. Pissed me off and I came very close to releasing the harness to end my life. But I quickly decided, the money can be replaced and I'll do it again within 2 weeks. Was working on that when I got arrested on June 28, 1972. Fucking "friends" ratted me out fast. Any questions, just ask. Have a nice day.
Martin McNally
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I'm going to see if he is will to do a podcast with Darren. I told him I would ask him a while back. I wanted to get to know Martin as a person first. we have been emailing since May of 2020. he's a character, that's for sure. I've shared some of his emails in the past. hopefully, he will agree and do the podcast.
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I think it was Dudeman who stated it probably wasn't a glorious thing jumping off the stairs. no going down backwards or pulling on the bottom of the stairs. he went down on his ass carefully working his way down. even a hardened criminal didn't go like it was nothing or without fear. In a podcast several years ago he explains it about the same. he didn't mention the googles getting ripped off his face. he was a trooper, ready to do it again weeks later...
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Meals and Maps
Anybody know how the meals, maps and other stuff requested for the pilots got aboard Flight 305? Who brought them onboard? Were they delivered to the forward door? Did Tina retrieve them?
Eric and I had a wonderful conversation today about how many trips Tina Mucklow made outside the plane. I'm saying three - one each for the mains, and one for the reserves. "Two Men" brought the money onboard, according to a few passengers.
But the meals? Was that a fourth trip out; a fifth?
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Meals and Maps
Anybody know how the meals, maps and other stuff requested for the pilots got aboard Flight 305? Who brought them onboard? Were they delivered to the forward door? Did Tina retrieve them?
Eric and I had a wonderful conversation today about how many trips Tina Mucklow made outside the plane. I'm saying three - one each for the mains, and one for the reserves. "Two Men" brought the money onboard, according to a few passengers.
But the meals? Was that a fourth trip out; a fifth?
Tina reportedly brought everything onboard including a box containing the meals and maps plus all four parachutes and the money bag.
Apparently Alice was standing by the forward passenger door when Tina brought the box with the meals and maps onboard and saw the maps and assumed Cooper had asked for them. In any event, Alice's remarks during her debriefing in Seattle is the only mention by anyone that Cooper asked for the maps.
Al Lee is the one who got the four meals and the maps for the trip south together. Lee and the Seattle detective are also the only two people, other than the refueling crews of one person per truck, who are reported to have been near the airliner.
The witnesses apparently meant that two men brought the money to (not onto) the aircraft. It would have been the ultimate in stupidity for others to try to board the aircraft when Cooper had expressly been told that NWA would cooperate with him.
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Lets not forget the pilots would have seen them board the plane..
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Meals and Maps
Anybody know how the meals, maps and other stuff requested for the pilots got aboard Flight 305? Who brought them onboard? Were they delivered to the forward door? Did Tina retrieve them?
Eric and I had a wonderful conversation today about how many trips Tina Mucklow made outside the plane. I'm saying three - one each for the mains, and one for the reserves. "Two Men" brought the money onboard, according to a few passengers.
But the meals? Was that a fourth trip out; a fifth?
Tina reportedly brought everything onboard including a box containing the meals and maps plus all four parachutes and the money bag.
Apparently Alice was standing by the forward passenger door when Tina brought the box with the meals and maps onboard and saw the maps and assumed Cooper had asked for them. In any event, Alice's remarks during her debriefing in Seattle is the only mention by anyone that Cooper asked for the maps.
Al Lee is the one who got the four meals and the maps for the trip south together. Lee and the Seattle detective are also the only two people, other than the refueling crews of one person per truck, who are reported to have been near the airliner.
The witnesses apparently meant that two men brought the money to (not onto) the aircraft. It would have been the ultimate in stupidity for others to try to board the aircraft when Cooper had expressly been told that NWA would cooperate with him.
So Tina got the meals before the money? Alice and Flo were both gone right after the money, leaving with the passengers essentially.
BTW, Robert, the passengers I spoke with were very specific and detailed about what they saw. I think it's incorrect, or at least unfair, to tell us what you think they saw.
Simply, the narratives from the crew differ from the passengers. The Big Question is why.
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Meals and Maps
Anybody know how the meals, maps and other stuff requested for the pilots got aboard Flight 305? Who brought them onboard? Were they delivered to the forward door? Did Tina retrieve them?
Eric and I had a wonderful conversation today about how many trips Tina Mucklow made outside the plane. I'm saying three - one each for the mains, and one for the reserves. "Two Men" brought the money onboard, according to a few passengers.
But the meals? Was that a fourth trip out; a fifth?
Tina reportedly brought everything onboard including a box containing the meals and maps plus all four parachutes and the money bag.
Apparently Alice was standing by the forward passenger door when Tina brought the box with the meals and maps onboard and saw the maps and assumed Cooper had asked for them. In any event, Alice's remarks during her debriefing in Seattle is the only mention by anyone that Cooper asked for the maps.
Al Lee is the one who got the four meals and the maps for the trip south together. Lee and the Seattle detective are also the only two people, other than the refueling crews of one person per truck, who are reported to have been near the airliner.
The witnesses apparently meant that two men brought the money to (not onto) the aircraft. It would have been the ultimate in stupidity for others to try to board the aircraft when Cooper had expressly been told that NWA would cooperate with him.
So Tina got the meals before the money? Alice and Flo were both gone right after the money, leaving with the passengers essentially.
BTW, Robert, the passengers I spoke with were very specific and detailed about what they saw. I think it's incorrect, or at least unfair, to tell us what you think they saw.
Simply, the narratives from the crew differ from the passengers. The Big Question is why.
Bruce, I didn't say Tina got the meals before the money and I don't believe Flo and Alice left before the passengers.
The answer to your Big Question is at least one of those narratives is wrong.
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The way it is portrayed in the FBI files is as follows:
Trip 1) Get the money. After which the passengers were released.
Trips 2, 3 & 4) Get the four parachutes.
Trip 5) Get the plates and meals...perhaps radio too????
The most important part of this process relates to the money and specifically what the passengers told Bruce about its delivery.
Also, the passenger manifest--on NWO letterhead shown in Part 2 of the Harrison files on Shutter's site--is apparently incorrect according to Bruce in that it lists three people with the last name McPhearson. According to Scott McPhearson, in an interview with Bruce, the FBI made a mistake listing three McPhearson's and that "S. McPhearson" and "Scott McPhearson" are the same person listed twice. This would mean that 305 carried 36 passengers including DBC, not 37 as shown on the NWO letterhead manifest.
With all of this in mind, I have to ask: If they can't even get the damn passenger manifest right, why the fuck are they viewed as infallible when it comes to something as big and complicated as the flight path?
Oh, let us also not forget the Palmer Report fiasco which was a colossal fuck up in that Palmer identified the 1970 dredge on Tena Bar as the 1974 dredge on Tena Bar which of course had major implications with respect to the timing of the money arriving at Tena Bar.
It's important to note these errors and consider that there may be many more--i.e., FBI Flight Path.
Cheers!
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With all of this in mind, I have to ask: If they can't even get the damn passenger manifest right, why the fuck are they viewed as infallible when it comes to something as big and complicated as the flight path?
You are looking at things in it's totality and doesn't reflect one general thing. the Air Force has nothing to do with the amount of passengers or who got on the plane first or last. The FBI has nothing to do with the flight path other than what was given to them. Northwest is the one who made the manifest. I doubt the FBI fact checked the document. it's not even relevant to them. they have a list themselves from the interviews. they know exactly who was on the plane. no press conference needed to correct NWO.
The FBI has to rely on what is given to them. have they made mistakes, they certainly have. it's nothing new in investigations.
The biggest misconception with the flight path is constantly saying people believe it's infallible. many claim it's close or somewhere in the area shown, even pretty accurate is stated by some. I don't recall anyone saying it's perfect or infallible. I've stated many times over the years that it could be pretty close and never made any claim it was infallible.
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As for the passenger list, there is one version that can be assumed to be 100% accurate and that is the one the FBI agent on the bus used to roll-call everyone. But where is that list?
Also, one can further assume that NWO had all the 305 tix and boarding passes. Did a list from that pile get compiled?
All of this makes me wonder why the "official" manifest is wrong - official in the sense that it is published on NWO stationery. None of the 302s sort this mess out, either, as far as I can tell.
BTW, the NWO and the FBI both misspell Mac Pherson. Scott told me that "Mc" is incorrect. Also, no "a" in Pherson. Again, other simple but telling mental errors.
There are other misspellings, as well. The NWO manifest spells WJ Murphy as Murphey, and Jack Almstad's name with an added “e,” Almstead.
Further, GG spells Georger Kurata's name different than NWO, which lists this passenger as Georger Kurota, with an “o.” I believe GG has it correct, Kurata.
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Robert, since you cite Alice seeing Tina bringing the meals and maps onboard and Alice left shortly after the money came onboard and before the parachutes, I deduced you saying that the meals and maps came onboard before the money and chutes.
No? Are you saying something else?
It is my understanding that Alice and Flo left after the money came onboard and the passengers deplaned. Not sure why they didn't hitch a ride on the bus, as I hear they got a ride with a fuel truck - I assume the "air lock" one, after it got bumped and the second one was pulling in.
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Robert, since you cite Alice seeing Tina bringing the meals and maps onboard and Alice left shortly after the money came onboard and before the parachutes, I deduced you saying that the meals and maps came onboard before the money and chutes.
No? Are you saying something else?
It is my understanding that Alice and Flo left after the money came onboard and the passengers deplaned. Not sure why they didn't hitch a ride on the bus, as I hear they got a ride with a fuel truck - I assume the "air lock" one, after it got bumped and the second one was pulling in.
Bruce, what is your source for claiming the order of the parachutes, money, and the box of meals and maps coming onboard? Frankly, I do not remember ever seeing such information anywhere.
There were actually three fuel trucks involved. It is highly unlikely that Flo and Alice would deplane before the passengers and what is the source of your claim that they road in a fuel truck?
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Whew. Lots of confusion here.
Here is what I know, or understand to be true:
1. Four fuel trucks were eventually summoned to Flight 305. The first was the "vapor-lock" truck. The second came in when Rataczak "laid down the law" to the FBI, but it developed legitimate problems. The third came in shortly thereafter but had too little fuel onboard to finish the job. Hence the fourth truck was summoned. I got this originally from GG and Bill Rataczak. Now, I think there are 302s confirming this scenario.
2. Yes, I don't believe that Alice and Flo left before the passengers. It is my understanding that they left 305 shortly after the passengers deplaned.
3. It is my further understanding that the passengers left after the money came onboard.
4. After the passengers and Alice and Flo left, Tina made three trips to get the four parachutes. This scenario comes from the crew debriefs.
5. As for when the meals and maps came onboard, I do not know, which is why I was asking. You're the first person I know, Robert, to say that Tina fetched them, as per Alice's commentary, which suggests that Alice was still onboard 305 when the meals and maps came on.
6. The story of Alice and Flo hitching a ride aboard a fuel truck comes from the statements made here on the Forum, attributed to one of the driver's claim made on Seattle TV, if I recall. Maybe Shutter can clarify this a bit. I'll dig in my notes when the sun comes up. They're outside in weather-proof totes. Not sure if the BBC docu filmed them much - they seemed to have filmed EVERYTHING else in my rustic abode...
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A colleague who watched the BBC production asked me if I knew that “eccentric” guy living off grid who “knows all about the case.”
“That’s my friend Bruce” I replied.
He then asked me if Bruce knew more about the case than I did.
“Yeah, he does”, I said, losing some stature in my admission.
I was then tempted to take a cheap shot at Bruce’s remote viewing, but I didn’t.
377
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Whew. Lots of confusion here.
Here is what I know, or understand to be true:
1. Four fuel trucks were eventually summoned to Flight 305. The first was the "vapor-lock" truck. The second came in when Rataczak "laid down the law" to the FBI, but it developed legitimate problems. The third came in shortly thereafter but had too little fuel onboard to finish the job. Hence the fourth truck was summoned. I got this originally from GG and Bill Rataczak. Now, I think there are 302s confirming this scenario.
2. Yes, I don't believe that Alice and Flo left before the passengers. It is my understanding that they left 305 shortly after the passengers deplaned.
3. It is my further understanding that the passengers left after the money came onboard.
4. After the passengers and Alice and Flo left, Tina made three trips to get the four parachutes. This scenario comes from the crew debriefs.
5. As for when the meals and maps came onboard, I do not know, which is why I was asking. You're the first person I know, Robert, to say that Tina fetched them, as per Alice's commentary, which suggests that Alice was still onboard 305 when the meals and maps came on.
6. The story of Alice and Flo hitching a ride aboard a fuel truck comes from the statements made here on the Forum, attributed to one of the driver's claim made on Seattle TV, if I recall. Maybe Shutter can clarify this a bit. I'll dig in my notes when the sun comes up. They're outside in weather-proof totes. Not sure if the BBC docu filmed them much - they seemed to have filmed EVERYTHING else in my rustic abode...
Bruce, let me say again that there is no evidence that anyone other than Tina brought anything onboard the airliner while it was on the ground at SEATAC.
FlyJack has posted on DropZone page 175 (I think it is) of the ground communication transcripts at SEATAC and it plainly states that Flo and Alice were in the "car" which would be the one Al Lee and the Seattle detective used to carry the parachutes, money, maps and meals out to the aircraft. So you can forget about them riding in a fuel truck.
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I believe you are talking about the video of the fuel truck owner, I don't have it at the moment but was recently posted by FJ. you can't always trust someone else speaking for you. the original statement from Flo was all 3 of them were with Cooper after the passengers left. Flo said Cooper told Tina to get the chutes. people like to put themselves into things. he also claims to have seen Cooper looking out the window. not a lot of people know enough to question things said like this with stories decades old. he could of seen Cooper, I don't know. not wise to be looking out the window. Did they even have snipers in place. they did with McCoy.
The witness statements can be troubling. Flo's statement says Cooper put the sun glasses on while putting on the back chute.
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A colleague who watched the BBC production asked me if I knew that “eccentric” guy living off grid who “knows all about the case.”
“That’s my friend Bruce” I replied.
He then asked me if Bruce knew more about the case than I did.
“Yeah, he does”, I said, losing some stature in my admission.
I was then tempted to take a cheap shot at Bruce’s remote viewing, but I didn’t.
377
Best chuckle of the day, so far, Three. Thanks.
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Whew. Lots of confusion here.
Here is what I know, or understand to be true:
1. Four fuel trucks were eventually summoned to Flight 305. The first was the "vapor-lock" truck. The second came in when Rataczak "laid down the law" to the FBI, but it developed legitimate problems. The third came in shortly thereafter but had too little fuel onboard to finish the job. Hence the fourth truck was summoned. I got this originally from GG and Bill Rataczak. Now, I think there are 302s confirming this scenario.
2. Yes, I don't believe that Alice and Flo left before the passengers. It is my understanding that they left 305 shortly after the passengers deplaned.
3. It is my further understanding that the passengers left after the money came onboard.
4. After the passengers and Alice and Flo left, Tina made three trips to get the four parachutes. This scenario comes from the crew debriefs.
5. As for when the meals and maps came onboard, I do not know, which is why I was asking. You're the first person I know, Robert, to say that Tina fetched them, as per Alice's commentary, which suggests that Alice was still onboard 305 when the meals and maps came on.
6. The story of Alice and Flo hitching a ride aboard a fuel truck comes from the statements made here on the Forum, attributed to one of the driver's claim made on Seattle TV, if I recall. Maybe Shutter can clarify this a bit. I'll dig in my notes when the sun comes up. They're outside in weather-proof totes. Not sure if the BBC docu filmed them much - they seemed to have filmed EVERYTHING else in my rustic abode...
Bruce, let me say again that there is no evidence that anyone other than Tina brought anything onboard the airliner while it was on the ground at SEATAC.
FlyJack has posted on DropZone page 175 (I think it is) of the ground communication transcripts at SEATAC and it plainly states that Flo and Alice were in the "car" which would be the one Al Lee and the Seattle detective used to carry the parachutes, money, maps and meals out to the aircraft. So you can forget about them riding in a fuel truck.
But - it's SO HARD to forget the image of Alice and Flo riding in a fuel truck... smile.
Again, it's another report that is at odds with other reports.
Who knew that truth could be so slippery.
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Whew. Lots of confusion here.
Here is what I know, or understand to be true:
1. Four fuel trucks were eventually summoned to Flight 305. The first was the "vapor-lock" truck. The second came in when Rataczak "laid down the law" to the FBI, but it developed legitimate problems. The third came in shortly thereafter but had too little fuel onboard to finish the job. Hence the fourth truck was summoned. I got this originally from GG and Bill Rataczak. Now, I think there are 302s confirming this scenario.
2. Yes, I don't believe that Alice and Flo left before the passengers. It is my understanding that they left 305 shortly after the passengers deplaned.
3. It is my further understanding that the passengers left after the money came onboard.
4. After the passengers and Alice and Flo left, Tina made three trips to get the four parachutes. This scenario comes from the crew debriefs.
5. As for when the meals and maps came onboard, I do not know, which is why I was asking. You're the first person I know, Robert, to say that Tina fetched them, as per Alice's commentary, which suggests that Alice was still onboard 305 when the meals and maps came on.
6. The story of Alice and Flo hitching a ride aboard a fuel truck comes from the statements made here on the Forum, attributed to one of the driver's claim made on Seattle TV, if I recall. Maybe Shutter can clarify this a bit. I'll dig in my notes when the sun comes up. They're outside in weather-proof totes. Not sure if the BBC docu filmed them much - they seemed to have filmed EVERYTHING else in my rustic abode...
Bruce, let me say again that there is no evidence that anyone other than Tina brought anything onboard the airliner while it was on the ground at SEATAC.
FlyJack has posted on DropZone page 175 (I think it is) of the ground communication transcripts at SEATAC and it plainly states that Flo and Alice were in the "car" which would be the one Al Lee and the Seattle detective used to carry the parachutes, money, maps and meals out to the aircraft. So you can forget about them riding in a fuel truck.
But - it's SO HARD to forget the image of Alice and Flo riding in a fuel truck... smile.
Again, it's another report that is at odds with other reports.
Who knew that truth could be so slippery.
Bruce, there is nothing slippery about this. Al Lee said they were in his car. He should know. All other claims are nonsense.
Just because some nut case claims otherwise, doesn't mean that you have to repeat it or put it in your book.
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So, what I'm gathering from your comments, Robert, is the following scenario:
1. The money comes onboard 305 - the who, how, and where we'll leave for another day to discuss.
2. Passengers leave 305. One tries to get back on and Rataczak radios Al Lee to secure the steps.
3. The passengers huddle at the foot of the stairs waiting for the bus, and an FBI appears from somewhere - maybe "John" from Larry Finegold's commentary, or maybe John Detlor, and he tells the passengers that they have been hijacked.
4. The bus comes for the passengers. The FBI agent standing with the passengers gets on the bus with them, or there are other FBI agents arriving and a couple get on the bus. At least one has a roll-call list - that is currently lost or unavailable to the public. But that agent and that list definitively know that Cooper, D. is the skyjacker.
5. Owen McKenna, the Homicide Decretive from the Seattle PD is no longer around, apparently, or has no further role, or somehow just doesn't do anything important enough to get into anybody's report.
6. Al Lee, who was riding with McKenna, is in a car, apparently, with the four chutes.
7. Alice and Flo join Lee in the car, waiting for a ride to the terminal. For some reason they do not assist Tina in transporting the four chutes onto the plane.
8. Tina makes three trips to the car to ferry the chutes to Cooper.
9. Al Lee says Tina looks emotionally shaken and slow to respond verbally to his inquiries. Alice and Flo apparently make no overtures to Tina, nor attempt to assist her.
10. When all the chutes are aboard 305, Al Lee is free to leave. He finally gives Alice and Flo a ride to the terminal. Presumably Owen McKenna is also in the car and rides to the terminal with them.
11. The FAA agent that is mentioned in the transcripts is apparently left to fend for himself.
12. The fuel truck driver, #1, leaves after his "vapor lock" caper fails. He drives off alone with his thoughts and fantasies, later realized in TV interviews and a certain newspaper reporter's cache of information.
Is this about it, Robert?
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So, what I'm gathering from your comments, Robert, is the following scenario:
1. The money comes onboard 305 - the who, how, and where we'll leave for another day to discuss.
2. Passengers leave 305. One tries to get back on and Rataczak radios Al Lee to secure the steps.
3. The passengers huddle at the foot of the stairs waiting for the bus, and an FBI appears from somewhere - maybe "John" from Larry Finegold's commentary, or maybe John Detlor, and he tells the passengers that they have been hijacked.
4. The bus comes for the passengers. The FBI agent standing with the passengers gets on the bus with them, or there are other FBI agents arriving and a couple get on the bus. At least one has a roll-call list - that is currently lost or unavailable to the public. But that agent and that list definitively know that Cooper, D. is the skyjacker.
5. Owen McKenna, the Homicide Decretive from the Seattle PD is no longer around, apparently, or has no further role, or somehow just doesn't do anything important enough to get into anybody's report.
6. Al Lee, who was riding with McKenna, is in a car, apparently, with the four chutes.
7. Alice and Flo join Lee in the car, waiting for a ride to the terminal. For some reason they do not assist Tina in transporting the four chutes onto the plane.
8. Tina makes three trips to the car to ferry the chutes to Cooper.
9. Al Lee says Tina looks emotionally shaken and slow to respond verbally to his inquiries. Alice and Flo apparently make no overtures to Tina, nor attempt to assist her.
10. When all the chutes are aboard 305, Al Lee is free to leave. He finally gives Alice and Flo a ride to the terminal. Presumably Owen McKenna is also in the car and rides to the terminal with them.
11. The FAA agent that is mentioned in the transcripts is apparently left to fend for himself.
12. The fuel truck driver, #1, leaves after his "vapor lock" caper fails. He drives off alone with his thoughts and fantasies, later realized in TV interviews and a certain newspaper reporter's cache of information.
Is this about it, Robert?
Bruce, I believe that the parachutes were on the jet before Alice and Flo left. Remember, Rat was trying to encourage Alice and Flo to simply leave the jet while Tina was outside collecting stuff. However, Tina finished up and the opportunity did not present itself again for the flight crew (stews and all) to bail.
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It's hard to say. Rat explains in a video that during the last trip out with Tina they could of escaped leaving Cooper alone. Flo states all of them were together when Cooper told Tina to get the chutes. Flo states seeing him put the back chute on. then they left the plane..Alice made a comment with the open chute..they all make similar statements..
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Things do get mixed up in events like these. I just watched a documentary about Lynyrd Skynyrd and the plane crash. lots of confusion with what happened. the drummer made his way out of the plane to go and find help. he found a farmer who had a gun he started walking towards him and the farmer told him to stop but he tripped while walking towards him and the farmer shot him in the arm. the drummer had blood all over him so the farmer didn't know what was going on. it was night time and didn't realize a plane crashed until he told him. he ended up helping him and going back to the crash. that was the third plane crash the drummer was involved in and survived!
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So, what I'm gathering from your comments, Robert, is the following scenario:
1. The money comes onboard 305 - the who, how, and where we'll leave for another day to discuss.
2. Passengers leave 305. One tries to get back on and Rataczak radios Al Lee to secure the steps.
3. The passengers huddle at the foot of the stairs waiting for the bus, and an FBI appears from somewhere - maybe "John" from Larry Finegold's commentary, or maybe John Detlor, and he tells the passengers that they have been hijacked.
4. The bus comes for the passengers. The FBI agent standing with the passengers gets on the bus with them, or there are other FBI agents arriving and a couple get on the bus. At least one has a roll-call list - that is currently lost or unavailable to the public. But that agent and that list definitively know that Cooper, D. is the skyjacker.
5. Owen McKenna, the Homicide Decretive from the Seattle PD is no longer around, apparently, or has no further role, or somehow just doesn't do anything important enough to get into anybody's report.
6. Al Lee, who was riding with McKenna, is in a car, apparently, with the four chutes.
7. Alice and Flo join Lee in the car, waiting for a ride to the terminal. For some reason they do not assist Tina in transporting the four chutes onto the plane.
8. Tina makes three trips to the car to ferry the chutes to Cooper.
9. Al Lee says Tina looks emotionally shaken and slow to respond verbally to his inquiries. Alice and Flo apparently make no overtures to Tina, nor attempt to assist her.
10. When all the chutes are aboard 305, Al Lee is free to leave. He finally gives Alice and Flo a ride to the terminal. Presumably Owen McKenna is also in the car and rides to the terminal with them.
11. The FAA agent that is mentioned in the transcripts is apparently left to fend for himself.
12. The fuel truck driver, #1, leaves after his "vapor lock" caper fails. He drives off alone with his thoughts and fantasies, later realized in TV interviews and a certain newspaper reporter's cache of information.
Is this about it, Robert?
Bruce, I believe that the parachutes were on the jet before Alice and Flo left. Remember, Rat was trying to encourage Alice and Flo to simply leave the jet while Tina was outside collecting stuff. However, Tina finished up and the opportunity did not present itself again for the flight crew (stews and all) to bail.
Looks like there is more to sort out here. This kind of discussion is the true value of this forum.
Thanks to all.
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There's another conundrum:
If Flo and Alice are still on the plane as Tina is bringing the chutes onboard, why didn't they help?
Further, if all the chutes and money are onboard before Alice and Flo left the plane, did Al Lee and whomever (McKenna, John, FAA Guy, all of the above....) wait in the car to give them a ride?
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If Flo and Alice are still on the plane as Tina is bringing the chutes onboard, why didn't they help?
Cooper told Tina to do the job. it's about control. It wouldn't benefit Cooper to have multiple people coming and going. that's usually a standard when you see a hostage situation not to let others run the show.
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From the original statements of the stews..When you read these 302's you will notice things are not in order..
Florence states the plane landed and Tina went out and got the money. she returned and gave Cooper the money and then the passengers s tarted to deplane.
She doesn't mention the chutes coming onto the plane. she asked Cooper if they could leave. he said "sure, go ahead". Cooper was putting the back chute on during that conversation.
Florence states that when she went to the cockpit with the notes(2) and sat down taking notes for a few minutes. Tina called from the phone saying the hijacker wanted the note he had written and the note Flo had written back to him.
Tina, states Cooper wanted the stairs to the exit available immediately so Tina could obtain the items requested.he was very insistent that every condition be met. as soon as the stairs were attached she exited the plane and retrieved a bag from an unknown man who got out of a car. she gave Cooper the money and he allowed the passengers to deplane.
Tina, states after the passengers were gone she went back out and picked up one back chute, stating she could only take one. Cooper then told her to lower the shades. nothing about the second back chute. she then goes back out and gets both front chutes. she then states all the hostesses and male members were still on the plane. she then asks him where they are going. she used a pay sheet and wrote in pencil "going to Mexico City----or any place in Mexico---nonstop---gear down---flaps down--don't go over 10,000 feet altitude---all cabin lights out---do not again land in the states for fuel or any other reason---no one behind the first class section"
Tina then states after arguing about the stairs up or down, and the fuel taking too long and no knapsack did he request all the notes, including the one's Flo wrote and Tina be returned.
Tina, states after taking off she noticed him being occupied with the open chute and cutting cord from the chute.
Alice, states the hijacker wanted Tina to go out and get the items requested when they land in Seattle. she states that the hijacker told Tina the stewardesses are to remain on board. she noticed an unpacked parachute and asked Cooper if he opened it, he replied "yes" Alice asked Cooper if they could leave and he replied "whatever you girls would like" so, Alice and Flo left the plane.
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Yup, lots of variations.
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Does anyone know what ever became of the envelopes containing the letters which were sent after the hijacking? https://www.history.com/news/db-cooper-case-fbi-letters
I've been doing some reading on DNA extraction techniques, if the original envelopes still exist, it shouldn't be difficult to pull DNA from the envelope flap and stamp. It's not overly expensive, and it's not even a drop in the bucket given what's already been spent on the case.
https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/dcu-case-acceptance-guidance-final.pdf
https://www.marshall.edu/forensics/files/GauthierQuentin_Research-Paper_080820141.pdf
While the FBI didn't take all of these letters seriously, there were at least a couple that they kept close to the vest, implying that they did take those seriously.
Why not try to pull DNA from all of the stamps/envelopes and start comparing them to each other?
Do any match? Are they all sent by the same person? Start building a family tree and figure out who sent them. Given the techniques available, this is doable, today. The clock is ticking on this case, Tina is still alive and could potentially ID Cooper based on who sent those letters, but if they don't take action on this in the next few years, we may never know.
It's frustrating that they potentially have the evidence necessary to identify Cooper, but refuse to do so.
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Looks like one more dropped pass in the end zone for the FBI. Good thinking, Fox.
Sigh.
I do know that Curtis Eng kept "Letter #3" at his desk, according to reports from Galen.
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Oct 31, 1970 - The Virginian 'Gun Quest' - Daniel 'Boss' Cooper.
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May I ask whether anyone on this forum has spoken to passenger Jack V Almstad? He is apparently alive, aged about 87 and living in Parker, Colorado. He had a brief interaction with the hijacker. Does anyone know if he gave a physical description of the hijacker?
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Flyjack posted two links. here is the contents of one of them...just got home and not settled in yet..the only person I can think of is Bruce Smith on interviews. I don't recall if he has though..
A Bay Area man also has a connection to the case. Jack Almstad of Livermore was on that November 24, 1971 flight. He found himself alone with Cooper in the back of the plane while they circled Seattle.
“I said, ‘Gee, we were up here so long, if we wait any longer we could have Thanksgiving up here, because it was the day before Thanksgiving.’ Well, this gentleman, he was on the right hand side of the plane, he turned around and looked at me and smiled. I was one row behind him,” Almstad said.
The plane then landed and taxied to a remote part of the airport. According to Almstad, a refueling truck pulled up, along with a bus, and people came on board.
“Then a guy, I it was a man, came walking down the aisle with a white sack. To me, it looked like a pillow slip, and it had all these jagged points in it. And I remember the thought I had, that looks like bricks in it, or a bag of money, I thought,” Almstad said.
Almstad believes he may have seen the $200,000 ransom that Cooper had demanded, along with a parachute.
Once the passengers were pulled off the plane, Almstad recalled, “…They took us into the terminal, and they took us upstairs, or somewhere. And there were FBI agents there, and they wanted to interview everybody.”
He didn’t have much to tell the FBI and didn’t even know it was a hijacking until he got off the plane.
Almstad said, “That was all there was to it. There was no conversation with him; he didn’t say anything to me. I went back to my seat, they let everyone off, and he jumped out, eventually.”
Jack Almstad might have had a better story to tell, if he weren’t such an avid reader, according to his wife Joyce. She said he practically read a book through much of the flight.
“It was probably a spy novel,” Joyce Almstad said.
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Yes, I interviewed Jack several years ago when he was living in Livermore, California. His statements are peppered throughout my book and elsewhere, including here at the Forum.
The above quote comes from a TV-news interview from the Bay Area.
He and his wife Joyce have not responded to my phone calls or emails for several years. I've thought Jack has passed away.
As for what Jack remembers about DBC's physical appearance, when I asked him he said that Cooper "pretty much looked like the sketch in the newspapers."
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Flyjack posted two links. here is the contents of one of them...just got home and not settled in yet..the only person I can think of is Bruce Smith on interviews. I don't recall if he has though..
A Bay Area man also has a connection to the case. Jack Almstad of Livermore was on that November 24, 1971 flight. He found himself alone with Cooper in the back of the plane while they circled Seattle.
“I said, ‘Gee, we were up here so long, if we wait any longer we could have Thanksgiving up here, because it was the day before Thanksgiving.’ Well, this gentleman, he was on the right hand side of the plane, he turned around and looked at me and smiled. I was one row behind him,” Almstad said.
The plane then landed and taxied to a remote part of the airport. According to Almstad, a refueling truck pulled up, along with a bus, and people came on board.
“Then a guy, I it was a man, came walking down the aisle with a white sack. To me, it looked like a pillow slip, and it had all these jagged points in it. And I remember the thought I had, that looks like bricks in it, or a bag of money, I thought,” Almstad said.
Almstad believes he may have seen the $200,000 ransom that Cooper had demanded, along with a parachute.
Once the passengers were pulled off the plane, Almstad recalled, “…They took us into the terminal, and they took us upstairs, or somewhere. And there were FBI agents there, and they wanted to interview everybody.”
He didn’t have much to tell the FBI and didn’t even know it was a hijacking until he got off the plane.
Almstad said, “That was all there was to it. There was no conversation with him; he didn’t say anything to me. I went back to my seat, they let everyone off, and he jumped out, eventually.”
Jack Almstad might have had a better story to tell, if he weren’t such an avid reader, according to his wife Joyce. She said he practically read a book through much of the flight.
“It was probably a spy novel,” Joyce Almstad said.
Banks don't deliver large sums of cash in pillow cases! "and it had all these jagged points in it." :rofl: It's homespun folklore or there is s direct conflict between official accounts and personal accounts by some guy on the plane. https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/detecting-conspiracy-theory/
https://www.parsingscience.org/2020/08/18/tim-tangherlini/
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Question to all. OK. The REAL DB Cooper comes out alive and says "Hi all you fools, its me!" Of course nobody will believe him after all of these clowns have confessed over the years. How could he prove its him beyond any doubt?
Also, does anyone have a link to a good map of the flight path and the relation between Tena Bar and the Dam? I guess the Merwin dam? I just wanted to look at this Rollins theory? You know, the boat and trailer theory?
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You might want to look at Skyvector for that area. I don't have a good quality map at the moment. I remember Bill and his theory. I don't see that amount of steps for a get away..
are you trying to pinpoint distance? if so Skyvector might help.
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You can find the sectional map for that period on Ebay sometimes. I bought the area you speak about a couple years ago for I think around $10..sectional maps change every 6 months I believe?. aviation changes as well as ground changes occur that have to be updated..
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a link to a good map of the flight path and the relation between Tena Bar and the Dam?
Free download of current FAA sectional chart at https://aeronav.faa.gov/content/aeronav/sectional_files/Seattle_100.zip
or https://aeronav.faa.gov/content/aeronav/sectional_files/PDFs/Seattle_100_P.pdf
(big files). Victor 23 centerline is shown. Airway width is 8 nautical miles horizontally (4nm from centerline).
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I'm on a laptop and both links fail to load for some reason..I still find it easier using Skyvector that has all the tools required. then if you want to be precise you need the sectional map from that circa.
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I took a quick picture of my sectional map..it's too large to post here. if I down size it the photo will distort when you enlarge..
https://drive.google.com/file/d/11daIrQj2yXhJt7ktF6Qh0aS3BKZltu-T/view?usp=sharing
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Thanks for this and all posts and to the other poster
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Its a nice map but I cannot move it north or south
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What do you mean. you need further than what is in the frame? after you enlarge it can move in any direction..
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I cant get the other one to open either. I am looking at yours now
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Ok, I can enlarge (zoom) it and move all around with no problem..I'm shocked at the clarity for a quick pic from my phone.
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I can do one from overhead vs angled and better lighting if someone wants a better pic..
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So it appears the dam is not far from Tena Bar? So Rollins theory could hold some water?
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You can probably come up with dozens of idea's inside or around the area of the jump zone. planes, trains, boats, bikes etc. etc. a straight line from Tbar to the dam is approx. 17 nautical miles..
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So its kind of at least a two hour boat ride? I do not know how busy the river is? Or was in 1971? I have to believe a guy that planned things so well for the heist, the parachutes and all, and the metrics of the plane, had to have a detailed plan of the most difficult part of the robbery. The Jump and escape from the woods? Maybe there is some merit to Rollins theory even if not as specific as his theory?
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It all depends on the size of the motor and speed of the boat. 5 mph or up to 30 mph..a lot of criminals don't think that far ahead and none of the copycats had any wild plans of escape..theories like the one Rollins has depend on Cooper knowing exactly where he was when he jumped.
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Ha. Yes on size of motor and all. I do believe DB had this well planned. Well enough that almost half a century later we still have never solved it. So what about the other question? If he came out of the woods right now, and said here I am, and it was really him, in his 90s, nobody of course would believe him. Is there any way to prove its actually him? Is there any solid DNA on that tie that could be compared? Or anything else that would prove beyond any doubt he is not just another of hundreds of lying idiots?
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Cooper had the "jump" on them. it isn't really that hard to get out of the area long before they were on the ground looking..
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Ha. Yes on size of motor and all. I do believe DB had this well planned. Well enough that almost half a century later we still have never solved it. So what about the other question? If he came out of the woods right now, and said here I am, and it was really him, in his 90s, nobody of course would believe him. Is there any way to prove its actually him? Is there any solid DNA on that tie that could be compared? Or anything else that would prove beyond any doubt he is not just another of hundreds of lying idiots?
Without knowing the particulars of the partial profile the FBI has, it apparently is enough of a profile it can exclude people who aren't Cooper, so if a new donor cant be excluded, then in a sense he is included. That is a start. Other evidence would then play a role. But I am betting that the last word on dna evidence hasn't been written yet. For one thing we know nothing about the specific dna sample the FBI has. Or the analysis the FBI conducted, or didn't conduct. We assume their analysis centered on a standard CODIS-13 analysis. There are other genetic tests that can also be conducted in addition to the standard codis-13 test, and the results of those tests are, if other tests were conducted ? Exclusion vs. Inclusion goes some distance as a start in profiling and narrowing down suspects ... other tests could result in narrowing suspects to a few or one.
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Well Georger I commend you for answering the question to the best of your ability. Its a tough question to answer and i did not expect any magical answer. The DNA from the recent television show was as I am sure you know, not DNA from Cooper, but accidentally from those I will not name attempting to solve this. I really wonder how good of a profile they actually have? And why all the secrecy now? By the FBI? Its just crazy. Just like the not telling this guy that said he was Clarence Angln from the Alcatraz escape, "sure, you have immunity, prove you are Clarence". Too damn arrogant to do that. And stupid. The FBI. Not sure if there is any smoking gun in this case that could ID Cooper other than solid DNA?
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Well Georger I commend you for answering the question to the best of your ability. Its a tough question to answer and i did not expect any magical answer. The DNA from the recent television show was as I am sure you know, not DNA from Cooper, but accidentally from those I will not name attempting to solve this. I really wonder how good of a profile they actually have? And why all the secrecy now? By the FBI? Its just crazy. Just like the not telling this guy that said he was Clarence Angln from the Alcatraz escape, "sure, you have immunity, prove you are Clarence". Too damn arrogant to do that. And stupid. The FBI. Not sure if there is any smoking gun in this case that could ID Cooper other than solid DNA?
Again the FBI uses the Codis-13 system. Their partial must include some of the following strs:
The 13 STR loci are: CSF1PO, FGA, TH01, TPOX, vWA, D3S1358, D5S818, D7S820, D8S1179, D13S317, D16S539, D18S51, and D21S11 have been selected as the core loci for use in CODIS (1).
Some strs's are more likely to register than others. A partial, by standard definition, must include 7 strs from the list above ...
and so it goes.
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Well I will be shocked if he ever does come forward. The real one anyway. If by chance he is alive. He certainly could be. If he had died in the jump, I believe they would have found the chutes and the bomb or fake bomb which is more likely. Kind of hard to not find a brief case with red cylinders all over the place. And the rest of the money
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All depends on where it was tossed. not everything lost is ever found. especially, in the middle of a forest. if he dumped the contents of the bomb they would be lost withing a short period of time by decay or discarded by someone not knowing it's value. lots area's were tough to get through, even if they did at all.
Cooper still being alive is also a stretch. it could be true but doubtful. I don't believe he has been found dead or alive IMO.
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Sailing Down the Lewis River
One of the limitations to the Bill Rollins theory is that he has never been to the Lewis River by the Merwin Dam, as far as I know. He was at the Ariel Tavern at the end of the CooperCon 2019 - his first visit to Cooper Country - but getting down to the river at the Dam requires entering restricted areas. I know I have never seen the Lewis River at that spot.
Bill says there is a boat launch area, but I can't confirm that. I do know the Lewis a little further downstream. It's not a big river. In fact, I don't know that any kind of motor boat can navigate the upper Lewis. Downstream, by Woodland, is certainly navigable, but is has plenty of logs, bends, sand bars, etc. As a result, no one can run it safely at night at speed.
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A boat ramp is visible from Google maps 1,700 feet from the dam. don't know if it was there in 71. it's a winding river spanning about 18 miles to the Columbia giving a total of about 30 miles to Tbar from the dam. you can see some of the sandbars along the way. it's just to James Bond for me..
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Not sure if this is the right sub-forum, mods please move if appropriate.
An old post by sailshaw dated September 16, 2016, 10:49:03 AM reads:"... the 727 ... could take off, fly, and land with the airstairs deployed. That was demonstrated by Boeing to the government at our test field at Moses Lake (Washington)."
Does anyone know:
(a) which airplane was used in these tests? (It seems probable that it would have been the second prototype (N72700) which was retained by Boeing throughout its operational life.)
(b) whether these air drop tests were done with the air stairs in place, or removed? (The FBI Vault seems to imply both configurations.)
(c) which government agency was the customer for these tests?
(c) whether any report or image of these tests is in the public domain?
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I don't recall the post. I would guess it depends on what was dropped. having the stairs down makes it very hard to try and slide anything out without help. if it was early in testing it's hard to say what plane was used.
When the CIA used the aircraft the stairs were removed and sheet metal was used to cover the steps that are fixed to the aircraft. large cargo and jumpers could easily slide right out the back on a static line.
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In 1975 a 727 took off with the stairs down leaving Vietnam but not by choice.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36lLBbhnkZU&ab_channel=BlueGlobal
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Not sure if this is the right sub-forum, mods please move if appropriate.
An old post by sailshaw dated September 16, 2016, 10:49:03 AM reads:"... the 727 ... could take off, fly, and land with the airstairs deployed. That was demonstrated by Boeing to the government at our test field at Moses Lake (Washington)."
Does anyone know:
(a) which airplane was used in these tests? (It seems probable that it would have been the second prototype (N72700) which was retained by Boeing throughout its operational life.)
(b) whether these air drop tests were done with the air stairs in place, or removed? (The FBI Vault seems to imply both configurations.)
(c) which government agency was the customer for these tests?
(c) whether any report or image of these tests is in the public domain?
There was a short article in Flight Magazine (the British publication) about 1963/64, just as the 727 was going into airline service, that the aircraft had been test flown with the aft stairs deployed. These tests were in all probability required by the FAA as part of the certification tests. It seems that these tests were not widely known to the airline line pilots who flew the aircraft. At least the NWA pilots hadn't heard about them.
So these tests were probably just demonstrations to determine if the deployed stairs would create a major control problem and/or require additional safeguards. They didn't, so everyone apparently just forgot about them. I have not seen anything to indicate that the 727 stairs ever deployed in flight accidentally.
I would assume that tests such as this and those to determine the minimum unstick speed (the rear fuselage dragging on the runway), which could possibly cause some structural damage that would need to be repaired, would be done on a Boeing owned 727 rather than an aircraft that had been ordered by an airline.
Personally, I do not see any need for testing with the stairs completely removed. And I doubt if the CIA would require any additional testing when they acquired 727s.
FlyJack posted an FBI document recently that discussed the Boeing tests and that is the only thing that I have seen in the public domain on this matter.
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The document can be found in the last batch of files. it's from the early 60's in reference to I believe an accident with a Caravelle and not a Corsair. that's a military prop fighter plane. the document claims the stairs only dropped 12 inches which were obviously improved as time progressed.
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An old post by sailshaw dated September 16, 2016, 10:49:03 AM reads:"... the 727 ... could take off, fly, and land with the airstairs deployed. That was demonstrated by Boeing to the government at our test field at Moses Lake (Washington)."
I'm neither an aviation engineer nor a pilot, but that sounds crazy to me. If the stairs in their deployed and locked down configuration are solid enough to serve as a tail support to prevent tipping, then how could they allow rotation for take off, or not interfere with a nose high landing?
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I recall in some of my travels with Sailshaw that Boeing advertised the 727 as a jump ship to the US military. In addition, I clearly remember seeing a picture of a 727 parked on top of an aircraft carrier. I think the poster was on display at the WSHM in their 2013 COOPER exhibit.
I was at the exhibit multiple times, and Sail was there at least once with me and bunch of us - Meyer Louie, Mark Bennett, the Formans, and others.
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Was it this photo?
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I didn't realize the aircraft Lynyrd Skynyrd crashed in was a Convair CV-240 which had rear stairs and probably what should of been in the documents and placed "corsair" by mistake. the plane in the video was used by Cary Grant showing the rear stairs..
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGsq-O2_xRw&ab_channel=GoldenAgeFlightMuseum
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An old post by sailshaw dated September 16, 2016, 10:49:03 AM reads:"... the 727 ... could take off, fly, and land with the airstairs deployed. That was demonstrated by Boeing to the government at our test field at Moses Lake (Washington)."
I'm neither an aviation engineer nor a pilot, but that sounds crazy to me. If the stairs in their deployed and locked down configuration are solid enough to serve as a tail support to prevent tipping, then how could they allow rotation for take off, or not interfere with a nose high landing?
They did it in 1975. the plane was in bad shape other than the stairs..it was able to takeoff though and land..
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An old post by sailshaw dated September 16, 2016, 10:49:03 AM reads:"... the 727 ... could take off, fly, and land with the airstairs deployed. That was demonstrated by Boeing to the government at our test field at Moses Lake (Washington)."
I'm neither an aviation engineer nor a pilot, but that sounds crazy to me. If the stairs in their deployed and locked down configuration are solid enough to serve as a tail support to prevent tipping, then how could they allow rotation for take off, or not interfere with a nose high landing?
They did it in 1975. the plane was in bad shape other than the stairs..it was able to takeoff though and land..
The Boeing tests were obviously done with the stairs being unlocked.
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Was it this photo?
No.
But that is a cool photo.
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That's the only one that pops up..it's a photoshop pic.
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As I recall it, the 727 on the aircraft carrier was a sketched poster, not a pix.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Al-q4DCKzqg Someone has probably already posted this but just in case. Guy dressed up like DB does the jump.
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A 2016 post by Bruce Smith states:
Ralph Himmelsbach, p. 13 NORJAK: "Lysne wrote 'Cooper, Dan' on the flight manifest, and wrote 'Seattle' and '52' on the ticket jacket in the spaces for destination and boarding gate.”
FBI Vault Part 10 page 443, footnote DB Cooper-1676, states: [redacted] Northwest Orient Airlines, advised that at approximately two p.m. November twenty four seventy one: white male came up to him in regular rotation in long line of customers and said something to the effect, "Can I get on your flight to Seattle?"
In the FBI document, which was written on a typewriter with uniform spacing of characters, the redacted text has a length equivalent to 34 characters including spaces. This would fit with "DENNIS EUGENE LYSNE, TICKET AGENT," or "DENNIS E. LYSNE, TICKETING AGENT", but also with "HAROLD X. WILLIAMS, TICKET AGENT," (where X is unknown).
Four questions if I may:
* Has anyone seen an unredacted copy of the FBI document?
* Is Himmelsbach's book the only document in the public domain that names Lysne as the ticket agent?
* Is there any other document that identifies the ticket agent?
* Has anyone on this forum ever communicated with Mr Lysne or Mr Williams?
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I think Geoffrey names Lysne and Williams in his book, Skyjack. I have not tried to communicate with either.
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In the FBI document, which was written on a typewriter with uniform spacing of characters, the redacted text has a length equivalent to 34 characters
On re-reading Part 10 pages 443 and 444, I see that there are two further redactions which are both exactly 5 characters long. The redacted text must read LYSNE.
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Having spent several decades in the market research industry, I recently devoted a few hours to thinking about how I would interview a person who had seen the hijacker and had retained a visual memory of him.
In such a situation, I think I would want to focus on the physical appearance, voice and body language of the hijacker, and not to ask about events, actions or chronology. I think I would not:
* make reference to any published artists' impressions of the hijacker (neither those of the FBI, nor those of private researchers)
* make reference to any proposed suspect, living or deceased
* give any indication that I hoped for or expected a particular response.
To that end, I developed a short questionnaire which consists entirely of generic visual images which allow the respondent to choose one, or more, or none, or reply "don't know" or "don't remember".
I would like to test this questionnaire on the members of this forum, of whom I suppose that many may have a mental image of the hijacker. With that preamble: admins/mods, may I have permission to post the questionnaire?
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I would like to test this questionnaire on the members of this forum, of whom I suppose that many may have a mental image of the hijacker. With that preamble: admins/mods, may I have permission to post the questionnaire?
You don't have to ask for permission trying something like you want to try. go ahead a post what ever you want to ask other members..
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go ahead a post what ever you want to ask other members..
OK thanks, here's Part 1 of the questionnaire. (There is a Part 2, but I would like to test Part 1 first.)
Notes: (1) the page size is A4 (British); in case anyone wants to print it, I can resize it to US letter size.
(2) Question Q1b is of course only applicable to someone who was on the flight.
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How do I select the different options in your survey?
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How do I select the different options in your survey?
In fact, the purpose of my post was not to survey the members of this forum, but rather to seek views on whether the questionnaire would be workable in a live situation, i.e. with a surviving member of the crew or passengers.
In market research it's critical to have the questionnaire right in order to get good answers. For example, I wanted to seek views on, for example:
* whether multiple-choice is the right format as opposed to, say, open-ended questions (e.g. "what did the hijacker look like?") or yes/no choices (e.g. "was the hijacker Hispanic?") or factual answers (e.g. "how tall was the hijacker?")
* if multiple-choice is right, whether the respondent should be invited to select more than one response or only one
* whether there should be "tick boxes" on each page, or just a dotted line for the responses
* whether "don't remember" should be an explicit choice, or left to the respondent
* whether the number of images is about right, too many or too few
* whether the images should be color or grayscale
* whether the page format should be landscape or portrait
* whether the questionnaire could be completed in (say) under 5 minutes, so as not to fatigue the respondent
* whether the respondent would find it fun or a chore.
Having said that, I don't mind if a member wants to respond as if he/she were the interviewee. In that case the simplest way would be to post the answers, e.g. Q1(a) = B, Q2 = A, etc. If many members wanted to do this, we would probably have to set up a poll, which I suppose is possible with the forum software.
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In fact, the purpose of my post was not to survey the members of this forum, but rather to seek views on whether the questionnaire would be workable in a live situation, i.e. with a surviving member of the crew or passengers.
Without knowing if anyone from the actual hijacking has ever seen the site makes it void. polls are already in place on this forum? the timing of your test is not good since not a lot of discussion is taking place. forums are basically made sort of like a questionnaire where they ask similar questions you presented. the test was kind of deceptive IMO?
If someone informed me that a passenger or crew member was going to be interviewed I could set up a thread for questions to be asked so the interviewer could then seek them out. McNally is a member on this forum. I was going to setup a time for him to be on the forum so people could ask him questions. this ended up failing because Martin doesn't know much about computers and navigating forums such as this one. something like that is about as close as you will get to a "live situation" polls work as well but typically take time to get results. sometimes they don't even know they are in place.
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Without knowing if anyone from the actual hijacking has ever seen the site makes it void.
It was not my assumption or expectation that any surviving crew member or passenger has ever visited this forum. My thinking was more as follows:
* In my understanding, some members of this forum (myself not among them) have relationships or at least contacts with surviving witnesses (crew members or passengers).
* Depending on the quality of those relationships, some witnesses might be willing to respond to a questionnaire such as this.
* The members of this forum could individually or collectively contribute to the quality of the questionnaire.
* If a good questionnaire could be developed, it would be up to the member having the relationship or contact, to approach the witness with appropriate safeguards for that person's privacy.
* If any useful insights emerged, and if the witness gave permission, those insights could be shared on this forum.
* In such a case, it would be in accordance with best industry practice if the witness were assured that he/she would not be identified by name.
This is simply my perspective from a market research career.
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I agree. as I stated a thread could be made for the purpose of collecting questions that could be used in a interview. personally, I don't think the passengers will be of much help for several reasons. time and the fact of them not knowing who Cooper was. Mitchell has mentioned no longer being able to really identify anyone. I think only the actual picture of Cooper would trigger the memory with the stews since so much time has passed.
It's really hard to recall events from years back that really had no importance to them at the time. it's only after the fact they realized what happened. can you even identify or remember who was in line at the grocery store yesterday or what type of vehicles were at the gas station? even if you were asked an hour later? since it wasn't important the odds are you won't remember. now, if something happens at the store and you are taken hostage for two hours you will have a better recall like the stews had.
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Forgot to quote DFS post on survey/market research. The case could have used this approach back in 1971. I've spent some time in market research and can appreciate your thinking, both from design of surveys, to actually asking the right questions. The 302s are pretty detailed, and a good summary, but after being on this forum for a few years, I realize that so many more questions would have been better. I still believe the FBI did what they could at the time and that they had no idea that so many little details would be important 50 years later. One question I'd ask of some of the investigators is "What do you wish you had asked the crew or passengers that you did not ask in 1971?"
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As per some earlier posts regarding Cossey and the chutes... Why would you modify the location of the pullcord? Would this have anything to do with the size of the jumper? Could this be done to make it easier for a much larger person? Does anyone know how many riggers were packing chutes in Washington at the time?
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Cossey told me that he modified his NB-6/NB-8 to make it safer. When I asked how it would be safer, he said that the handle pocket would protect the rip cord from being accidentally being pulled inside a jump ship on the way to altitude.
As for relocating the ripcord, I got the sense that Coss liked to tinker with things.
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How did Jo Weber get her information on the Heisson store? Was it in the 302s? Was it in a local police report? Was it in the newspaper? Or was Duane Weber actually Cooper? :rofl:
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The Heisson store burglary was not part of her original story told to the FBI. It was also not part of her early postings on the DZ. It only appeared on the DZ after her "reminiscense trip" where she toured the area, including a visit to the Heisson store itself. As near as I could figure, she got the story from someone in the area. She gets some details about the burglary wrong as well.
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NickyB has interviewed the store owner’s family who said that Jo knew if the break-in when she met with them. I’m obviously not suggesting Duane Weber is Cooper, but I’d like to know how she came upon this information.
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The bottom line is it was not information she got fron Weber. It was something she picked up sometime after the first DZ thread was shut down. She never mentioned it publicly until after her trip. She gets details wrong. And thanks to the FBI files, ww know for sure it was not something she mentioned as part of her original story.
If she didn't get it from Duane, then it was something she picked up on her own, in which case it has nothing to do with whether Weber was Cooper.
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NickyB has interviewed the store owner’s family who said that Jo knew if the break-in when she met with them. I’m obviously not suggesting Duane Weber is Cooper, but I’d like to know how she came upon this information.
... how? By telephone. ;)
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Jo has had an uncanny ability to "pick-up" facts along the way. Her ability to sleuth information and gain access to Norjak folks is singular. I doubt Duane is DBC, but who the hell is Jo Weber???
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NickyB has interviewed the store owner’s family who said that Jo knew if the break-in when she met with them. I’m obviously not suggesting Duane Weber is Cooper, but I’d like to know how she came upon this information.
... how? By telephone. ;)
Yes. Text message.
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The bottom line is it was not information she got fron Weber. It was something she picked up sometime after the first DZ thread was shut down. She never mentioned it publicly until after her trip. She gets details wrong. And thanks to the FBI files, ww know for sure it was not something she mentioned as part of her original story.
If she didn't get it from Duane, then it was something she picked up on her own, in which case it has nothing to do with whether Weber was Cooper.
I understand all of that. Again, my question is WHERE did she become privy to that information?
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The bottom line is it was not information she got fron Weber. It was something she picked up sometime after the first DZ thread was shut down. She never mentioned it publicly until after her trip. She gets details wrong. And thanks to the FBI files, ww know for sure it was not something she mentioned as part of her original story.
If she didn't get it from Duane, then it was something she picked up on her own, in which case it has nothing to do with whether Weber was Cooper.
I understand all of that. Again, my question is WHERE did she become privy to that information?
Who knows? We can't answer that question. Why does it matter? We do know it wasn't part of her original story, which is a key aspect of any Jo Weber statement. She would take information in, process it, incorporate it into her own narrative. The only way to analyze Jo's storoes are to look at the original statements she made to the FBI, which we now have, and see what fits and what doesn't.
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I guess the question is, what does the fact Jo knew about the Heisson burglary mean to you?
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The robbery wasn't a secret was it? Hager told me about it in the mid 2000's. For what it's worth, he said that store was frequently broke into. He told me it was close to a railroad and people (some would call them hobos) would break into it before hopping the train and leaving the area. He was of the opinion that the break in didn't involve Cooper.
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Pardon the formatting because I'm doing this from a phone, here is an email I received from Jo in 2017:
Evidently I missed a lot of action on the thread last night..I have not been very well so do not do much of anything with this...but the woman whose husband saw Cooper walking I spent 2 nights with her and her sister in 2010...they are REAL. I have not heard from either of them in a long time now - believe they are both deceased...but the son is very alive and interested...would speak to the man.. ONE was VERY ill when I was there and the other sister later on became ill....the spouses of both women are also deceased.
The son I will be glad to attempt to put in touch with the man - but you will have to connect me to him.
He was pretty aggressive and he sounded very much like another person on the DZ...he just was way too far out there with the stuff that made no sense...but, I have not been here (on the site) in a couple of days.
The woman whose HUSBAND saw the man walking is deceased but the son is alive and well and in law enforcement and he will gladly relate his mother's story to the man...he believes that Weber was Cooper but being in law enforcement he does NOT get involved. Just put the man in contact with me - I will have to find out if the guy still lives in the area and that he (the law officer) is willing to participate with the man.
I do not wish to interact with the aggressive man - but will speak with him if he wished to call me and I will tell him what I was told and what I was shown - 2 days with 2 sisters whose stories are very very believable.
It was not the woman who saw the man walking but her husband on his way to work - and he had NO knowledge of the skyjacking until he arrived home the next day.The other sister worked in the area for the POWER company and the place that stores the pump cars...she told me about some thing they found and what she saw herself...and that might be who he is referencing...she lived above the area and saw a man walking near where she lived...she had a cabin on near the bar but up in the hills toward where the part of the plane was found (the tag or whatever it was)...off of the door. Another woman just down the road and along the road to the Logging bridge that has been gone for yrs...claimed the same thing. The man saw the walker below the bridge and after he crossed the bridge - describe what he wore and what he carried but had NO knowledge of the crime until he returned home that evening....I know I am not telling this correctly, but I have the recordings and the letters they sent to me...but the FBI didn't even look. That in itself told me they knew who Cooper was or could have been...
Another family claimed to have seen Cooper just before the approach to Yacolt Road but in order for the next so called siting he had to have gone into wood along a logging road that took him to the Heisson are..and the store was broke into early that morning...the only thing missing was food and socks....Duane had told me himself about knowing a guy who broke into the old post office and then it was verified in 2010 when I was out there. Duane had taken me into the wood just about the Heisson store and drove a ways into the wood and there was a clear where a tower used to be - he thought he was in the wrong place because the tower was gone...and after a moment he realized he was in the right place and pointed to the area the trees were lower and told me there used to be a logging road there and that there used to be a shed next to the tower that was gone and that one time he hid something behind and under the shed...it was walking distance to the store - evidently his feet where wet and cold...then he told me how slow the train when thru there as there was a cross ways of the highway...real easy to jump a car there that would have taken him all the way back to Portland - but that is not what he did...he jumped the car at the pipeline and you could walk for miles and miles along the pipeline and not be seen. Which way he went I do not know - did he go right back at them or did he walk South East - I believe a car was stashed at Homan, but that was too dangerous so I believe he went South East along the pipeline which would have taken him to the other places he took me.
That being the Green Mountain area and he talked about having put something on a tower there - after that it was a cake walk..Green Mountain has been stones - it did in 1979 and a fence and a gate and lots of Dead trees and places to hide his bounty...or wait for the other party to pick him up - this is very near Lake Lacamas where he knew the man who grew the trees. The power line intersect below there and it is well hidden...so I believe he took me to the other place he spent some time at and that was staying on the power grid all the way past east of Washougal where the swinging bridge was - that is one of the designated pickup areas was.or he could have chose a rail car and have went right back at them...either way his accompanist knew where to find him...at designated times...but I believe he was picked up not far from that point. He may or may not have had an accompanist - at any rate he had to get to his transport out of the area...I believe he hid out for a day or 2 before heading back toward Portland - he did hurt his knee.
If you want to believe he made it - then take a map and grasp my story - because why else would he take me to those places....and then take me to a place where he buried money in 1979 and it was found faster than he expected...why he suddenly left me and my daughter in CO while he supposedly went back East to find work...we had plenty of work in Ft. Collins and the area...no need to leave before my daughter graduated.
Odd that he quizzed her about her coach and his wife..supposedly he had read about the witnesses (2 of them having married coaches) He wanted to know the name of the Wife....ODD? Duane Weber was Cooper and I have not one little bone in my body that says anything else.
Widow of Duane Weber and John C. Collins and Dan Cooper aka D.B.Cooper.
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I guess the question is, what does the fact Jo knew about the Heisson burglary mean to you?
I guess my response would be, why is my reason for wanting to know her source pertinent?
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NickyB has interviewed the store owner’s family who said that Jo knew if the break-in when she met with them. I’m obviously not suggesting Duane Weber is Cooper, but I’d like to know how she came upon this information.
Not quite C...Tina Lusk then owner with husband Chris remembers Jo coming to the store and said that all of the information she got she got from them. She figured if Jo asked her husband he would of told her there were many break ins during that time but upon further checking with her husband they realized he was at the post office during the time she came to visit that day and never saw her, so all of her interactions were with Tina, further her husband Chris Lusk (then owner) and nephew of the original owner David Horsche in 71 has no knowledge of a break in the night of the hijacking and is adamant that that is something if he heard he would remember. In Jo’s DZ posts from circa 2011 she claims she learned about a break the night of the hijacking from the owner, well I went right to the horses mouth and that’s just not true. Her facts on the break in are accurate as far as what she said was taken it matches the 302 and she adds one thing that is not in the 302 and that the store was broken into through the bathroom window. Dave’s wife told me the store did at one point have a break in through there because when they got the store in 99 that window had bars on it. The store has big windows in the front which offer much easier access to the store but would make you more visible from the road. She is to perplexed on how Jo got this information. She stopped In tired and worn from her trip, the store is in the middle of nowhere and there are no locals hanging around there that would of had this tidbit of information according to Dave’s wife Tina, heck they had no idea about this. I also talked to Dave Horsche’s son Lynn via telephone who also had no knowledge of a break the night of the hijacking but reinterred that they had many breakins during those days. He was 16 at the time and lived at the store with mom and dad. Tina asked Dave Horsch’s sister Sue who is still alive and kickin in Vancouver Wa... same story she said she never heard of a break in/DB correlation, Tina says Dave and her sister Sue were very close and If he knew or it’s something he thought of she would know...nobody in the Horsche family has any knowledge of a break in associated with norjack. So either Lynn Horsche never put two and two together which very well could be as Tina told me it would just be another day at the office for him as breakinsb seemed to be part of the norm, even if he make the association it’s safe to say he never publicized it to anyone as it’s news to his own sister, son, nephew ect. So to everybody saying Jo could of picked this up somewhere, upon further research that seems like a very low probability. I can only come up with a couple scenarios either somebody connected with Jo or Jo herself had access to the fbi files and came across the memo about a store break and did what FJ did with the given coordinates to merwin dam states in the memo figure out it was Heisson or Jo actually got this from Duane and just got it mixed up given her memory issues as to how she came to learn this fact. If it’s the ladder well it doesn’t change my mind one bit on Weber being cooper but it strengthens the case for me for him possibly being involved on the ground in some way.
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I guess the question is, what does the fact Jo knew about the Heisson burglary mean to you?
I guess my response would be, why is my reason for wanting to know her source pertinent?
Just curious.
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The robbery wasn't a secret was it? Hager told me about it in the mid 2000's. For what it's worth, he said that store was frequently broke into. He told me it was close to a railroad and people (some would call them hobos) would break into it before hopping the train and leaving the area. He was of the opinion that the break in didn't involve Cooper.
He probably knew of that store in the drop zone and that it as by the tracks and had a history of being broken into a like you say but as far as knowing somebody broke in at 11:15pm on November 24th, 1971. I’d highly doubt that.
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I believe it was 2006 when Hager told me about the break in. He most certainly knew it was broken into the night of the sky jacking. I don't think he gave a specific time. He did know for certain though that it was broken into that night! How he knew I am not sure of. I was under the impression it was common knowledge.
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I believe it was 2006 when Hager told me about the break in. He most certainly knew it was broken into the night of the sky jacking. I don't think he gave a specific time. He did know for certain though that it was broken into that night! How he knew I am not sure of. I was under the impression it was common knowledge.
It was most certainly not common knowledge! Looks like we can add Hagger to this Heisson mystery now too 😯
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Between this and other things that have came out I am starting to think Hager might have been a little more involved than he let on.
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Hagger is Cooper.
Cooper is Hagger.
Einhorn is Finkel!
Finkel is Einhorn!
I keed. I keed.
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I have to say, Jo's stories regarding the Heisson store robbery are interesting, and it's perhaps her only "hit" in her entire voluminous corpus. However, are we really to reconsider Duane Weber as a Cooper suspect? Is that where we're at after 14 years?
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Not for me. I'm happy to say "goodbye" to Duane - no "w", no "y," Weber.
But I am all for continuing to dig into Jo. Two reasons:
1. Why was she so dogged? She had to hide all of her DB Cooper stuff from her new husband. Jim, according to Jo (of course).
2. How did she develop all those contacts? I had Snowmman feeding me stuff for years and Jo still beat us to the punch. All on a computer that constantly made docs go "poof." Really?
3. BTW, where is Jim, now?
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Not for me. I'm happy to say "goodbye" to Duane - no "w", no "y," Weber.
But I am all for continuing to dig into Jo. Two reasons:
1. Why was she so dogged? She had to hide all of her DB Cooper stuff from her new husband. Jim, according to Jo (of course).
2. How did she develop all those contacts? I had Snowmman feeding me stuff for years and Jo still beat us to the punch. All on a computer that constantly made docs go "poof." Really?
3. BTW, where is Jim, now?
This is the first I have heard about "Jim" or another husband? Was he the fellow that appeared with her in the recent HBO video (I think it was)?
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I’m not suggesting Duane Cooper is a viable suspect. I’m merely interested in how Jo came about this information about a store break-in in Heisson. It’s a fascinating tidbit that I’d like to get my head around.
Not a thing to do with Duane.
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When did details about the store's robbery become public knowledge? Wouldn't the local newspapers have mentioned it? For what it's worth, Hager also knew about the bathroom window being compromised.
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Not for me. I'm happy to say "goodbye" to Duane - no "w", no "y," Weber.
But I am all for continuing to dig into Jo. Two reasons:
1. Why was she so dogged? She had to hide all of her DB Cooper stuff from her new husband. Jim, according to Jo (of course).
2. How did she develop all those contacts? I had Snowmman feeding me stuff for years and Jo still beat us to the punch. All on a computer that constantly made docs go "poof." Really?
3. BTW, where is Jim, now?
This is the first I have heard about "Jim" or another husband? Was he the fellow that appeared with her in the recent HBO video (I think it was)?
Jo says she married James Barber a few years after Duane died. She lived in his house in Navarre, and described him as being the "love of her life." Outside of Cooper World, Jo was known as Mrs. Barber, but inside our little slice of Paradise no one knew about Jimmy.
Why the secrecy? I have no idea. Was Jo lying to me? Maybe. Lying to herself? Maybe.
BTW: Jimmy was not Jo's "memory man" of recent HBO fame. The MM is named Tim Collins. I don't know if he is any relation to John C. Collins, and I don't know how the two linked-up. I hope Darren can shed some light on that.
lastly, Jo is currently residing in "Your Life of Pensacola."
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When did details about the store's robbery become public knowledge? Wouldn't the local newspapers have mentioned it? For what it's worth, Hager also knew about the bathroom window being compromised.
Wow! well hagg’s must of been buddies with Jo because that detail is not even in the 302. The first record of this is from a Jo Weber DZ post , Tina did say that window was broken into at some point because when she and her husband took over the store in 99 the bathroom window had bars on it. This was never public knowledge haggis if nobody in the owners family and ownership have a clue about this.
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What year did this Jo Weber post this information?
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I distinctly remember Hager discussing the robbery. I believe it was around 2006. Hag died in March of 2007 so obviously it was before that. Hag and I were discussing the locations of railroad tracks located in the area when he mentioned the robbery. He said that somewhere down the line I might hear about it. He said the store was broken into fairly often. Evidently, from what he told me that window was compromised in previous robberies. As I said, he blamed this robbery (and other robberies )on the " hobos" that were riding the rails.
Since he lived fairly close to that area
I just figured he read about the robbery from the local newspapers or maybe from one of the locals living in the area.
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I distinctly remember Hager discussing the robbery. I believe it was around 2006. Hag died in March of 2007 so obviously it was before that. Hag and I were discussing the locations of railroad tracks located in the area when he mentioned the robbery. He said that somewhere down the line I might hear about it. He said the store was broken into fairly often. Evidently, from what he told me that window was compromised in previous robberies. As I said, he blamed this robbery (and other robberies )on the " hobos" that were riding the rails.
Since he lived fairly close to that area
I just figured he read about the robbery from the local newspapers or maybe from one of the locals living in the area.
Weber made thousands (or more!) of phone calls in addition to tips she received from people at DZ. The only way Jo could have known about the store robbery was if somebody told her or if she got the tip from some post at DZ. Jo would have been quick to call anyone and everyone associated with that news. Jo was always quick to weave news into her narrative for Duane.
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Although I believe Hag followed the dropzone discussions, I don't think he ever posted anything there. I can't remember him ever mentioning Jo Weber.
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Although I believe Hag followed the dropzone discussions, I don't think he ever posted anything there. I can't remember him ever mentioning Jo Weber.
Jo cultivated sources in Washington State who helped her and fed her information for years. It was a mutual benefit association born of Jo and Duane's lifestyle. Jo was 'working' the airport when Duane met her. Jo was a professional networker... likewise Duane. These people live by their wits. It's no big deal that someone told her about the Heisson store robbery... Jo could tell you what size shoes you wear if she had a reason to collect that information ... ;D
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Did she live in the state of Washington? If so, what part of the state?
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Weber made thousands (or more!) of phone calls in addition to tips she received from people at DZ. The only way Jo could have known about the store robbery was if somebody told her or if she got the tip from some post at DZ. Jo would have been quick to call anyone and everyone associated with that news. Jo was always quick to weave news into her narrative for Duane.
That's the Jo Weber I know. Very succinct, G.
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Did she live in the state of Washington? If so, what part of the state?
No - she lived/ still lives, in Florida. Her whole Cooper adventure was hatched in Florida.
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Jo did come up to WA for a short stay of a few days, at least once. In 2010, I spent a long day with her, driving around from Vancouver to SR 500, Lake Camas, and environs.
She almost died twice. First, as I have described here several times, Jo almost got us killed driving three blocks to breakfast. She was the worst driver I have ever seen.
Later, at dinner at the Red Lion Inn, I thought the waiter was going to strangle her because she was the customer-from-hell, arguing about her Crone's Disease dietary restraints. Ug.
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Did she live in the state of Washington? If so, what part of the state?
No - she lived/ still lives, in Florida. Her whole Cooper adventure was hatched in Florida.
Wouldn't that be after Duane Weber died?
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Did she live in the state of Washington? If so, what part of the state?
No - she lived/ still lives, in Florida. Her whole Cooper adventure was hatched in Florida.
Wouldn't that be after Duane Weber died?
When Duane was alive and working in insurance Jo and Duane moved to Virginia Beach after McCoy was killed there. Duane died and Jo migrated to Florida ? - unsure of date. Shutter or Smith will know ... wasnt Jo living in FL the whole time she was on DZ peddling her stories.
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FYI, I can't find any public reference to the Heisson store burglary before Jo's trip in 2010. If anyone finds a public reference to it before that, it would be of great interest.
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FYI, I can't find any public reference to the Heisson store burglary before Jo's trip in 2010. If anyone finds a public reference to it before that, it would be of great interest.
There isn’t any Marty, first public reference are Jo’s posts on the DZ in 2014 where she talks about her stop at the HS during her 2010 trip and learning about the break in from the owners which I have debunked, then it came up again last year when an fbi 302 came out talking about a break in at a store the night of the hijacking. That’s all that is on record anywhere. The break in was not public knowledge nor local knowledge, the only people that knew of the break in that night were David Horsch the owner who lived at the store and LE. It looks to me from talking with David’s family is he never put two and two together and associated the break in that night with DB Cooper which makes sense as he was frequently broken into so that was business as usual. Dave wasn’t going around telling people hey somebody broke into my store that night maybe it was that DB Cooper guy. I don’t think LE thought anything of it either and they didn’t publicize it. So again this wasn’t a known thing that was going around so I don’t even know what contact Jo would have that had this information first hand like I said it’s possible if she or somebody she knew had access to the fbi files they could of figured out that the HS was broken into that night.
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Did she live in the state of Washington? If so, what part of the state?
No - she lived/ still lives, in Florida. Her whole Cooper adventure was hatched in Florida.
Wouldn't that be after Duane Weber died?
When Duane was alive and working in insurance Jo and Duane moved to Virginia Beach after McCoy was killed there. Duane died and Jo migrated to Florida ? - unsure of date. Shutter or Smith will know ... wasnt Jo living in FL the whole time she was on DZ peddling her stories.
As I understand Jo's life, she and Duane were in Florida for the whole DB Cooper thingie. Duane died - and confessed - in Florida. Then she married Jim Barber and moved to Navarre. She lived there until recently, when she had to move to her health-care facility in Pensacola.
Jim died a number of years ago, as Safecracker has reminded me.
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From what I recall is Jo was in several area's of the Florida panhandle. Pace, Navarre and Santa Rosa. she was also in Fultondale Alabama. she tried to link my father to Duane and anyone close to an area she believed Duane was around. her time frames were always off. she made claims for a couple years that the FBI refused to give her records about his prison time in Jefferson under the name of John Collins. I was able to get the info for $4.95 including his arrest record and prison photo sent in a CD format. I never did tell her how easy it was.
Only his younger photo's resembled Cooper IMO. she didn't show many of him from the 70's. the one's she did show didn't fit the description. his vision was horrible shown in the 70's on with the "coke bottle" type glasses (thick) even claiming he was basically blind without them. I think her obsession caused her to hide the research from her husband after Duane. it was her whole life 24/7.
I liked Jo but could only take so much. sadly, I ended up blocking her from my email. she was sending 5 plus a day. calling me all the time. most of her emails included the Seattle and Portland FBI.
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Getting a phone call from Jo was like encountering an element of nature. Think tsunamis, F-4s, derechos... etc.
I wonder what her nurses think of Duane and DBC?
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It's hard to say what state Jo is in by now. she obviously had memory issues prior to getting into treatment. I watched my grandmother slowly lose her memory. as a family we would take turns staying with her in the daytime and she would look right at me and tell me her grandson was coming over. I was watching a documentary on VHS and Kennedy gave his famous "ask not what your country can do" and she jumped up saying John F Kennedy several times as I reversed the tape. Jo might not even know what's going on anymore. depends on what the illness is. my grandmother only lasted a couple months once we put her into a full care center. the last time I saw her I brought her a pizza. she knew I worked at Pizza Hut and even then she said it was from her grandson not knowing who I was when I gave it to her. even back in the mid 80's Alzheimer's wasn't known and the term "senile" was used. I remember the phone call from my dad. I was working at a pawn shop just a couple miles away from the home. she was not blood relation since she adopted my father but knowing her my whole life made no difference.
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My mother went through the same thing. It's a hard hard thing to watch. I remember sitting with her on the front porch talking one day and she seemed together that day. I was thinking, "she's having a good day today". Then she asked me if I knew her son Jamie. I then realized that she didn't even know who she was sitting on the porch with. I don't wish death on anyone, but it's tough to watch someone go on that has already mentally checked out. But they don't realize it. It's the ones close to them that it really hits.
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Altz is a toughie. When my grandmother forget who I was it was not that big a deal. but when she forgot who her son was - my father - and got combative with him, now that was tough to watch.
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Altz is a toughie. When my grandmother forget who I was it was not that big a deal. but when she forgot who her son was - my father - and got combative with him, now that was tough to watch.
Sorry to hear that Bruce. I can only imagine. Its a tough one.
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Yeah. At that point death is a welcomed blessing.
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I remember someone stating (georger? Bruce?) that there were witnesses on the ground who reported seeing flames or something burning falling from the plane. Can someone refresh my memory on this please?
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I remember someone stating (georger? Bruce?) that there were witnesses on the ground who reported seeing flames or something burning falling from the plane. Can someone refresh my memory on this please?
The Janet story. Do a search at DZ. https://www.dropzone.com/search/?q=Janet%20story&quick=1
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I remember someone stating (georger? Bruce?) that there were witnesses on the ground who reported seeing flames or something burning falling from the plane. Can someone refresh my memory on this please?
The Janet story. Do a search at DZ. https://www.dropzone.com/search/?q=Janet%20story&quick=1
Simply: Janet and her husband (and children) were backing out of their drive in Vancouver the evening of 11/24/71 and claimed to have seen a flare or bright flame dropping from the sky, during the same period of time 305 might have been passing overhead. The next day Janet and her husband contacted the FBI and LE. Janet claimed two guys in black suits arrived at her door and told her to bury the story and STFU. The family dropped pursuing their story publicly. Except Janet and her husband shared their story with several people at their workplace (Wilhelm Trucking in Portland) and at their church in Vancouver. Those people in turn passed the story on to others ....
By 1984 Richard Tosaw was being widely publicized in area newspapers for his work in the Cooper case. Janet ______ went to one of Tosaw's book signings and related her story to Tosaw. After Tosaw's death on 9/16/2009, Galen Cook inherited some of Tosaw's files and discovered the Janet story. Cook found and interviewed Janet _______ and brought the Janet story to life. see DZ notes on the Janet story.
From there the story gets very complicated. Galen Cook found and confronted a member of Janet's original church at Vancouver, and Cook caused quite a stir! The people Cook was looking for were no longer even alive! Cook's confrontational actions caused people to go silent and some became very angry at Cook's intrusion into 'church' activities. At length Cook began to claim there were other witnesses to what Janet and her husband saw. That Janet and others had actually seen DB Cooper leaving 305 (with a flare or flare dropping) as 305 flew west over Vancouver. Cook may have even publicized his claims on late night radio ? Cook's actions caused everyone to go silent for self protection! Maybe Bruce Smith can say something about this debacle ?
No independent witnesses to Janet and her husband's claim has ever been found at Vancouver, or anywhere else so far as I know ...
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This version of events in the "Janet's Fiery Object" episode is essentially correct as I have heard from Galen.
As for his "confrontational" behavior, I have no knowledge of that. However, Galen, to me, is an excellent interviewer and much less bristly than I when dealing with the general public.
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I believe this has been mentioned before but could the flares of been an effort they used to light up the area hoping to see Cooper?
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How did Tosaw gain the information that appears to be absent in the 302's we are getting?
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I believe this has been mentioned before but could the flares of been an effort they used to light up the area hoping to see Cooper?
So far as I know, no exact time has ever been assigned to the Janet sighting? What was the exact time Janet and her husband backed out of their drive and had their sighting ?
Were Janet and her husband aware of the Cooper hijacking in progress at the time? How were they aware of it? Were Janet and her husband listening to news about the hijacking on the car radio as they backed out of their drive?
Who exactly did Janet and her husband tell about their sighting, outside of law enforcement people? When and where did they divulge this information to others? Did these people pass that information on to others immediately after 11/24/71 say on 11/25/71? .................................
Was 305 even available in Vancouver airspace for anyone to see, at the time the Janet family was backing out of their drive?
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I think the Janet thing is bunk after looking into it. However, could the supposed flares in the briefcase have been used by Cooper somehow to assist in his jump? As some sort of guide or target? Or could the six road flares have gotten so hot that they completely destroyed the briefcase which would explain why it was never found?
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I think the Janet thing is bunk after looking into it. However, could the supposed flares in the briefcase have been used by Cooper somehow to assist in his jump? As some sort of guide or target? Or could the six road flares have gotten so hot that they completely destroyed the briefcase which would explain why it was never found?
who knows ! But, I am convinced somebody looked into Janet and her husband's claims at the time. There have to be records about that somewhere ...
There is concrete evidence a small circle of people became of aware of Janet and her husbands claims, shortly after 11/24/71, and passed the story on to others even beyond the State of Washington. at length, the media became aware of the Janet Story and published it. But the story never made it on CBS News in 1971 .... ;)
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Wasn't there reports(stories?) of a small plane dropping flares somewhere just north to northeast of Vancouver sometime shortly before the hijacking?(maybe a week or so beforehand) I don't think it was ever verified. As per the Janet story...Hag said he had heard the story but not from Janet. He might have read about in Towsas (sp.?) book although I'm not really sure where he heard about it. For some reason he questioned whether or not they were really F.B.I. agents (that showed up at her door).He said they didn't show Janet any I.D.
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So far as I know, no exact time has ever been assigned to the Janet sighting? What was the exact time Janet and her husband backed out of their drive and had their sighting ?
Galen has indicated to me Janet saw the flares around the 8:15pm time period.
Not to make the Janet thingie more complicated, but it reminds me of the report of flares being dropped in the Eugene area days prior to skyjacking that were reported to Cliff Ammerman and the Seattle Center ATC. Cliff told me that Eugene people called him asking for assistance, and he said that he had none to offer.
One mysterious flare drop is a mystery. Two flare drops within a few days is something else. Exactly what that might be escapes me.
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There is concrete evidence a small circle of people became of aware of Janet and her husbands claims, shortly after 11/24/71, and passed the story on to others even beyond the State of Washington....
That is my understanding as well. That said, I have not spoken to anyone who was in that "small circle" or knew of it. Nevertheless, there are currently three threads of this story. The Big Question is: are three different groups of people telling Janet's story, or did three different people see flares from different spots simultaneously. My understanding from Galen is that he has found multiple groups telling their own independent sighting story, and taken together the triangulation puts the plane/305 west of the I-5 bridge in Vancouver.
The flares and small airplanes flying about the hinterlands of Cooper Country on the night of are their own small sub-genres of Norjak investigation. But it's all rather nebulous to me and hard to sort out.
However, Janet's story has the most substance. Further, her report of the "FBI" agents coming to her door and intimidating her is important, in my view. How to investigate that happening is tough, though, but it reminds me of Dick Lepsey's daughter receiving a similar visit years after her father's disappearance. What does it all mean? ...Sigh....
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There is concrete evidence a small circle of people became of aware of Janet and her husbands claims, shortly after 11/24/71, and passed the story on to others even beyond the State of Washington....
That is my understanding as well. That said, I have not spoken to anyone who was in that "small circle" or knew of it. Nevertheless, there are currently three threads of this story. The Big Question is: are three different groups of people telling Janet's story, or did three different people see flares from different spots simultaneously. My understanding from Galen is that he has found multiple groups telling their own independent sighting story, and taken together the triangulation puts the plane/305 west of the I-5 bridge in Vancouver.
The flares and small airplanes flying about the hinterlands of Cooper Country on the night of are their own small sub-genres of Norjak investigation. But it's all rather nebulous to me and hard to sort out.
However, Janet's story has the most substance. Further, her report of the "FBI" agents coming to her door and intimidating her is important, in my view. How to investigate that happening is tough, though, but it reminds me of Dick Lepsey's daughter receiving a similar visit years after her father's disappearance. What does it all mean? ...Sigh....
Well, if Galen has quote: "found multiple groups telling their own independent sighting story, and taken together the triangulation puts the plane/305 west of the I-5 bridge in Vancouver", that is news. Is it factually true? Who are these people and why hasn't this been published before? What time frame?
What does "multiple groups" mean?
Why hasn't Galen gone public with this? I am sure the media at the highest levels would jump on this and love to document this important claim and publish it!
Mr. Smith you are reporting tonight at this late hour that Galen Cook has ground breaking NEWS in the DB Cooper case!
Did Galen share his ground breaking discovery with the FBI? Galen never fails to find groundbreaking NEWS in the DB Cooper case. It's too bad some who actually lived through the hijacking aren't alive to see it and share in it! Or am I missing something ?
Dont be surprised if news outlets all over the world will be reporting this tomorrow ! Maybe you and Galen should publish an announcement fast, and set the stage for this so as to prepare everyone for your announcement.
wow.
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Well, if Galen has quote: "found multiple groups telling their own independent sighting story, and taken together the triangulation puts the plane/305 west of the I-5 bridge in Vancouver", that is news. Is it factually true? Who are these people and why hasn't this been published before?
It has been published, G. Page 106 of DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking.
By the way, did you get a PDF copy of the 3rd edition that I was sending out to Forum folks? Maybe you should un-block my email address so I can send you a copy. It's gratis, of course.
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305 was never west of the I-5 bridge, and at 8:15 the plane was in the vicinity of Orchards. If Cooper was west of the I-5 bridge at 8:15, throwing lit flares out of the plane before jumping, then where is the drop zone? Tigard?
Yeah, I got my salt shaker ready...
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Is the Janet story supposed to be based on actually seeing 305 with the flares? it's been a while since I read the article. a plane at 10,000 is not very big, then you have the cloud coverage.
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Dona from the Ariel store believes she heard 305 fly over her house in Amboy. she thinks the plane was at around 3-4,000 feet. what's interesting is she said it was raining so hard she couldn't hear anything. how did she hear 305 then? I have all the respect in the world for her but it sounds like a story to keep the interest in that area alive. a publicity stunt of sort..
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Dona from the Ariel store believes she heard 305 fly over her house in Amboy. she thinks the plane was at around 3-4,000 feet. what's interesting is she said it was raining so hard she couldn't hear anything. how did she hear 305 then? I have all the respect in the world for her but it sounds like a story to keep the interest in that area alive. a publicity stunt of sort..
If Dona is credible here this could be used as further evidence of the Western Flight Path.
How?
The F-106's are exceptionally loud, plus there were two of them. It seems likely that she heard them and not 305.
Now, put 305 several miles west of the F-106's--which was verified by Ammerman--and you have 305 near St. Helens/Woodland. Interestingly, this is the precise area Capt. Scott stated 305 flew according to the report from Himmelsbach's retirement party.
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Dona from the Ariel store believes she heard 305 fly over her house in Amboy. she thinks the plane was at around 3-4,000 feet. what's interesting is she said it was raining so hard she couldn't hear anything. how did she hear 305 then? I have all the respect in the world for her but it sounds like a story to keep the interest in that area alive. a publicity stunt of sort..
If Dona is credible here this could be used as further evidence of the Western Flight Path.
How?
The F-106's are exceptionally loud, plus there were two of them. It seems likely that she heard them and not 305.
Now, put 305 several miles west of the F-106's--which was verified by Ammerman--and you have 305 near St. Helens/Woodland. Interestingly, this is the precise area Capt. Scott stated 305 flew according to the report from Himmelsbach's retirement party.
Except there is no indication that she is credible, and there isn't any previous evidence of a WFP. It's pure conjecture.
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Dona lived in Amboy at the time? If you confirm her story you must confirm that the weather was horrific..rain so hard she couldn't think..ready to confirm this too or part of it?
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Dona from the Ariel store believes she heard 305 fly over her house in Amboy. she thinks the plane was at around 3-4,000 feet. what's interesting is she said it was raining so hard she couldn't hear anything. how did she hear 305 then? I have all the respect in the world for her but it sounds like a story to keep the interest in that area alive. a publicity stunt of sort..
If Dona is credible here this could be used as further evidence of the Western Flight Path.
How?
The F-106's are exceptionally loud, plus there were two of them. It seems likely that she heard them and not 305.
Now, put 305 several miles west of the F-106's--which was verified by Ammerman--and you have 305 near St. Helens/Woodland. Interestingly, this is the precise area Capt. Scott stated 305 flew according to the report from Himmelsbach's retirement party.
Except there is no indication that she is credible, and there isn't any previous evidence of a WFP. It's pure conjecture.
More nonsense from Chaucer.
You need to check into where Himmelsbach's helicopter flight took him on the evening of the hijacking, where the chase aircraft were vectored to intercept the airliner, why Captain Scott said the published flight paths for the airliner were all wrong.
Doing a bit of research before running your mouth would be a good idea also.
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Doing a bit of research before running your mouth would be a good idea also.
That's enough >:(
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Dona from the Ariel store believes she heard 305 fly over her house in Amboy. she thinks the plane was at around 3-4,000 feet. what's interesting is she said it was raining so hard she couldn't hear anything. how did she hear 305 then? I have all the respect in the world for her but it sounds like a story to keep the interest in that area alive. a publicity stunt of sort..
If Dona is credible here this could be used as further evidence of the Western Flight Path.
How?
The F-106's are exceptionally loud, plus there were two of them. It seems likely that she heard them and not 305.
Now, put 305 several miles west of the F-106's--which was verified by Ammerman--and you have 305 near St. Helens/Woodland. Interestingly, this is the precise area Capt. Scott stated 305 flew according to the report from Himmelsbach's retirement party.
Except there is no indication that she is credible, and there isn't any previous evidence of a WFP. It's pure conjecture.
For a guy who isn't going to debate the flight path anymore, you sure seem to debate the flight path a lot.
First of all, there is also no indication that Dona is not credible. She has testified she heard a very loud jet that night. It is what it is.
Second, just because you make pronouncements about no evidence supporting a Western Flight Path doesn't make your pronouncements true.
Third, why do you feel the need to be a dick? I offered up a post. That's it. Now if you want to debate the merits of the post based upon fact, then have at it. But grand pronouncements and rhetoric are unnecessary and not welcome.
Fourth, let me give you an example of a "non-dick" way to respond to my post: "I'm not certain Dona was credible. That said, if she is, it is still possible that she did actually hear 305 and not the F-106s as you suggest. Moreover, concerning the media reference regarding the Capt. Scott comment about being further west I'll just say that media reports are often unreliable and faulty. My money is still on the FBI Flight Path being accurate."
Simple as that. Cheers!
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Dona didn't give any formal statement as far as I can tell. it's not on record other than from reporters. again, are you ready to accept the weather was severe as she claims. you can't use part of a story as credible.
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Dona and Bryan both claim Cooper has been to Ariel and sent letters.
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Dona didn't give any formal statement as far as I can tell. it's not on record other than from reporters. again, are you ready to accept the weather was severe as she claims. you can't use part of a story as credible.
We know what the weather was like that night. We have irrefutable data. If she or anyone else tells a different story then they are incorrect--not necessarily lying.
Even at that, it still does not mean that she is lying about hearing a jet. These testimonies are not mutually exclusive. Again, that's why I qualified my comments by stating "if Dona is credible here."
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Well, if Galen has quote: "found multiple groups telling their own independent sighting story, and taken together the triangulation puts the plane/305 west of the I-5 bridge in Vancouver", that is news. Is it factually true? Who are these people and why hasn't this been published before?
It has been published, G. Page 106 of DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking.
By the way, did you get a PDF copy of the 3rd edition that I was sending out to Forum folks? Maybe you should un-block my email address so I can send you a copy. It's gratis, of course.
Yes. That soap opera. No wonder the media ignored it. Old stuff keeps resurfacing ... like old suits. We went over this nonsense years ago. Once is enough!
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Dona didn't give any formal statement as far as I can tell. it's not on record other than from reporters. again, are you ready to accept the weather was severe as she claims. you can't use part of a story as credible.
We know what the weather was like that night. We have irrefutable data. If she or anyone else tells a different story then they are incorrect--not necessarily lying.
Even at that, it still does not mean that she is lying about hearing a jet. These testimonies are not mutually exclusive. Again, that's why I qualified my comments by stating "if Dona is credible here."
We know what the weather was like that night.
We who? Where? to what altitude by whom where? In what weather zones when? Your sweeping statement is no better than Dona's.
Lots of different witnesses in different places and positions at different times gave different accounts including the pilots ....
Why dont you just stick to your flight path and your drop zone and give a weather report for that vs. trying to tell us what the weather was like that night EVERYWHERE IN WASHINGTON!
This is ridiculous. Why dont you just say: "I am the only one with the actual weather facts for that night - ignore all other reports"! ;)
Cheers.
*** There was no single weather report for all of Washington at all altitudes and times - that night! Or along a single flight path from Seattle to PDX ... ::)
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Dona from the Ariel store believes she heard 305 fly over her house in Amboy. she thinks the plane was at around 3-4,000 feet. what's interesting is she said it was raining so hard she couldn't hear anything. how did she hear 305 then? I have all the respect in the world for her but it sounds like a story to keep the interest in that area alive. a publicity stunt of sort..
Well, I'm not debating the flight paths. I'm just tired of you and Robert99 making proclamations as if they are fact when there is little to nothing to substantiate them. If you are going to put forward contrarian positions that contradict the known facts then I'm going to call you on it. I wish more posters like myself did the same. I'm not being a dick; I just don't think you like nor are you used to having your theories pushed back on. You like to be able to monologue because no one can interrupt you, and politely debating you on this issue provides your theory with the illusion of substance and fact. The western flight path is a fringe theory that flies in the face of official, documented evidence and no third person eavesdropping at birthday party or a second-story from a less than credible witness is going to change that.
Again, I respect the work and research you have put in, but on this issue your conclusions are just wrong. If saying that makes me a "dick" then so be it.
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I'm far from an expert on weather in Washington. here it can rain on one side of the street and bad storms just a couple miles away having sunshine.
Can anyone verify a bad storm cell anywhere in the area? if a bad storm cell is nowhere to be found the problem lies upon the person reporting the event. if there was no bad storm did she really hear anything? the credibility takes a strong hit. then you read more reports from her believing Cooper has been at the Ariel store. it's certainly possible he walk right by. did Cooper really send them letters. It's all rather difficult to swallow.
Dona was a very nice person and kept that tavern open for years while losing money. Bryan had demons dealing with alcohol but still tried to "keep the torch lit" in his mothers honor.
Evidence can only be evidence that is verified. I see assumptions turn into evidence. we have multiple stories from the pilots. we have a radar operator that says the path looks close but tosses in things making it appear faulty. I think Scott in on record shortly after the fact believing Cooper landed in Merwin. how could he say that if he was further west not even close to the lake. why didn't they just stay after looking at the map show a relatively straight line from certain points showing where they were?
Other things like the Cinbar find are nothing close to proof it was part of the skirting. The placard has come under question as well. both of these events need more documentation prior to calling them evidence. strong possibilities, perhaps? can we do anything as a group to find out more about these events vs stating "the so called placard from 305" battling back and forth gets nowhere.
This Thursday I will be working right beside a Boeing warehouse. I'm not sure what the operation is about but they might be a foot in the door in asking questions or directing me to them. we will see..
Lets tone the attitudes down while we are at this...
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I'm far from an expert on weather in Washington. here it can rain on one side of the street and bad storms just a couple miles away having sunshine.
Can anyone verify a bad storm cell anywhere in the area? if a bad storm cell is nowhere to be found the problem lies upon the person reporting the event. if there was no bad storm did she really hear anything? the credibility takes a strong hit. then you read more reports from her believing Cooper has been at the Ariel store. it's certainly possible he walk right by. did Cooper really send them letters. It's all rather difficult to swallow.
Dona was a very nice person and kept that tavern open for years while losing money. Bryan had demons dealing with alcohol but still tried to "keep the torch lit" in his mothers honor.
Evidence can only be evidence that is verified. I see assumptions turn into evidence. we have multiple stories from the pilots. we have a radar operator that says the path looks close but tosses in things making it appear faulty. I think Scott in on record shortly after the fact believing Cooper landed in Merwin. how could he say that if he was further west not even close to the lake. why didn't they just stay after looking at the map show a relatively straight line from certain points showing where they were?
Other things like the Cinbar find are nothing close to proof it was part of the skirting. The placard has come under question as well. both of these events need more documentation prior to calling them evidence. strong possibilities, perhaps? can we do anything as a group to find out more about these events vs stating "the so called placard from 305" battling back and forth gets nowhere.
This Thursday I will be working right beside a Boeing warehouse. I'm not sure what the operation is about but they might be a foot in the door in asking questions or directing me to them. we will see..
Lets tone the attitudes down while we are at this...
Toned down version 837625901.867 follows.
The maps the pilots were using were Low Altitude IFR maps that do not show topographical information. Further, the airliner was above several cloud layers with an overcast at 5000 feet and it is unlikely that they could even see the ground.
So Captain Scott's mentioned of Lake Merwin is not going to be absolutely precise and was probably arrived at some time after the actual flight. In the airliner was on V-23, it would be several miles west of Lake Merwin.
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Toned down version 837625901.867 follows.
Why?
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My two cents on Dona and the weather:
Dona was a true creature of the Cooper Vortex. Everything she said about Norjak she said with authority - she was never open to a discussion about what she saw, heard, or was told. Period.
That said, she was a kind and generous person. I liked her, and I loved her parties.
As for the weather, Dona - and others - say it was hellacious. Maybe it was for a few moments as a storm cell moved through.
Did she hear a jet plane? Maybe. But unlikely. 305 at 4K? Maybe. But unlikely - even the feds say 305 was further west, approaching Battleground and at 10K. The F-106s? Maybe. But unlikely, as they were climbing to 20K as per Cliff Ammerman's statements.
Lastly, in general Dona gave kinda-useful, kinda-truthful information about Norjak. Meyer and I spent half an afternoon chasing down her claims on the Amboy chute, to no avail. BTW: getting from the Arial Tavern to Amboy is a long-haul. Finding a bridge across the Lewis is tough - either drive back to Woodland, or head east and wind one's way through the Yale Valley. About an hour either way. Yet, Green Mountain, the alleged landing site of the Amboy chute and DBC, is but a stone's throw from the back door of the tavern across the Lewis River valley.
Did DB Cooper actually come to the Tavern? Dona said he did.
Did Dona confuse Mike Cooper with Dan Cooper? She might have. I know I was confused when she told me about Mike, as I hadn't seen the full passenger list, yet.
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I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?
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weather underground give options to go back in time..
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I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?
I am staying out of this. Its endless and pointless. Certain parties are going to hold onto their claims no matter what - to the end of Life.
If you want Tom Kaye docs write Tom Kaye!
If you want previous wx posts go to DZ. Search Hominid, who R99 disagreed with. Hom used Carr's FBI wx files Carr provided. Here is one of them. There are many pages... Carr turned to Hominid for interpretation and advice in the wx matter using original wx docs. Hom copied me with all docs and the conversations....
Beyond that this discussion is as pointless as antlers on a Miller Lite! Except to say the orig docs still exist. Posting limits here prevent posting any of them ...
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Here's another - good luck.
Weve been over this thousands of times. Credit goes to R99 and his kind for holding back the ocean of progress ... R99 is the Better Man and WINS!
One minute 99 says they couldnt see anything on the ground - next minute he may concede someone said 'could see the lights of Portland coming '. But any concession will be brief and fleeting. Dont hold R99 to anything. ;) Its pointless and impossible. Better to just ask the nurse to wheel you out of the room! The nurses get paid to handle this kind of stuff . . . my sympathies to them.
Good night Margarette. :rofl:
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I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?
I am staying out of this. Its endless and pointless. Certain parties are going to hold onto their claims no matter what - to the end of Life.
If you want Tom Kaye docs write Tom Kaye!
If you want previous wx posts go to DZ. Search Hominid, who R99 disagreed with. Hom used Carr's FBI wx files Carr provided. Here is one of them. There are many pages... Carr turned to Hominid for interpretation and advice in the wx matter using original wx docs. Hom copied me with all docs and the conversations....
Beyond that this discussion is as pointless as antlers on a Miller Lite! Except to say the orig docs still exist. Posting limits here prevent posting any of them ...
Georger, what you refer to as "Carr's FBI wx files" were produced by the National Weather Service and the FAA. They are not an FBI product.
Just exactly what did I disagree with Hominid about? If I remember correctly, since it was about 8 or 10 years ago, I am the one who provided Hominid with these files to begin with and we discussed them at length. Tom Kaye originally provided these files to me to use in the original placard drift calculations. I think Carr provided them to Kaye. And I passed things on to Hominid.
There is more to this story but Georger's version is not correct.
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Here's another - good luck.
Weve been over this thousands of times. Credit goes to R99 and his kind for holding back the ocean of progress ... R99 is the Better Man and WINS!
One minute 99 says they couldnt see anything on the ground - next minute he may concede someone said 'could see the lights of Portland coming '. But any concession will be brief and fleeting. Dont hold R99 to anything. ;) Its pointless and impossible. Better to just ask the nurse to wheel you out of the room! The nurses get paid to handle this kind of stuff . . . my sympathies to them.
Good night Margarette. :rofl:
Just more Georger nonsense. The commonly held opinion here is that the pilots could see the "glow" of the lights of Portland through the two or three cloud layers and the overcast but not the lights themselves. Anyone who has spent much time flying at night in cloudy weather over large cities can understand what the pilots meant. In fact, I think one of the pilots confirmed that it was the "glow" of the lights that they saw.
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I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?
I am staying out of this. Its endless and pointless. Certain parties are going to hold onto their claims no matter what - to the end of Life.
If you want Tom Kaye docs write Tom Kaye!
If you want previous wx posts go to DZ. Search Hominid, who R99 disagreed with. Hom used Carr's FBI wx files Carr provided. Here is one of them. There are many pages... Carr turned to Hominid for interpretation and advice in the wx matter using original wx docs. Hom copied me with all docs and the conversations....
Beyond that this discussion is as pointless as antlers on a Miller Lite! Except to say the orig docs still exist. Posting limits here prevent posting any of them ...
Georger, what you refer to as "Carr's FBI wx files" were produced by the National Weather Service and the FAA. They are not an FBI product.
Just exactly what did I disagree with Hominid about? If I remember correctly, since it was about 8 or 10 years ago, I am the one who provided Hominid with these files to begin with and we discussed them at length. Tom Kaye originally provided these files to me to use in the original placard drift calculations. I think Carr provided them to Kaye. And I passed things on to Hominid.
There is more to this story but Georger's version is not correct.
Georger, what you refer to as "Carr's FBI wx files" were produced by the National Weather Service and the FAA. They are not an FBI product.
Give it a rest! - All I said was the FBI had these files, Carr got them from FBI files, and Carr shared these files with .................................. several people.
I mean even a third grader can understand what I said.
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I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?
I am staying out of this. Its endless and pointless. Certain parties are going to hold onto their claims no matter what - to the end of Life.
If you want Tom Kaye docs write Tom Kaye!
If you want previous wx posts go to DZ. Search Hominid, who R99 disagreed with. Hom used Carr's FBI wx files Carr provided. Here is one of them. There are many pages... Carr turned to Hominid for interpretation and advice in the wx matter using original wx docs. Hom copied me with all docs and the conversations....
Beyond that this discussion is as pointless as antlers on a Miller Lite! Except to say the orig docs still exist. Posting limits here prevent posting any of them ...
Georger, what you refer to as "Carr's FBI wx files" were produced by the National Weather Service and the FAA. They are not an FBI product.
Just exactly what did I disagree with Hominid about? If I remember correctly, since it was about 8 or 10 years ago, I am the one who provided Hominid with these files to begin with and we discussed them at length. Tom Kaye originally provided these files to me to use in the original placard drift calculations. I think Carr provided them to Kaye. And I passed things on to Hominid.
There is more to this story but Georger's version is not correct.
Georger, what you refer to as "Carr's FBI wx files" were produced by the National Weather Service and the FAA. They are not an FBI product.
Give it a rest! - All I said was the FBI had these files, Carr got them from FBI files, and Carr shared these files with .................................. several people.
I mean even a third grader can understand what I said.
Even a third grader can understand that you need to be more precise in your allegations about events.
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I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?
I am staying out of this. Its endless and pointless. Certain parties are going to hold onto their claims no matter what - to the end of Life.
If you want Tom Kaye docs write Tom Kaye!
If you want previous wx posts go to DZ. Search Hominid, who R99 disagreed with. Hom used Carr's FBI wx files Carr provided. Here is one of them. There are many pages... Carr turned to Hominid for interpretation and advice in the wx matter using original wx docs. Hom copied me with all docs and the conversations....
Beyond that this discussion is as pointless as antlers on a Miller Lite! Except to say the orig docs still exist. Posting limits here prevent posting any of them ...
Actually, I was hoping to see Kaye's weather info because of another avenue of inquiry I'm pursuing and not the one currently being discussed here. I had heard that Tom had put together weather data of all the Pacific Northwest. I assumed that info was publicly available, but couldn't find it.
weather underground give options to go back in time..
I know that Weather Underground does have historical weather data, but that is for the ground only and not winds aloft, correct?
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I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?
I am staying out of this. Its endless and pointless. Certain parties are going to hold onto their claims no matter what - to the end of Life.
If you want Tom Kaye docs write Tom Kaye!
If you want previous wx posts go to DZ. Search Hominid, who R99 disagreed with. Hom used Carr's FBI wx files Carr provided. Here is one of them. There are many pages... Carr turned to Hominid for interpretation and advice in the wx matter using original wx docs. Hom copied me with all docs and the conversations....
Beyond that this discussion is as pointless as antlers on a Miller Lite! Except to say the orig docs still exist. Posting limits here prevent posting any of them ...
Actually, I was hoping to see Kaye's weather info because of another avenue of inquiry I'm pursuing and not the one currently being discussed here. I had heard that Tom had put together weather data of all the Pacific Northwest. I assumed that info was publicly available, but couldn't find it.
weather underground give options to go back in time..
I know that Weather Underground does have historical weather data, but that is for the ground only and not winds aloft, correct?
My recollection is nobody ever found wind data for 10K feet. Again ask Kaye to share some of his data with you. Or find old posts at DZ about the weather.
Based on everyone's work, I think the weather 'that day' is a complex regional story. Except for R99, its a subject nobody wants to be pinned down about. Read Hominid's post at DZ for an overview.
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The radiosonde data from weather balloons was obtained by Tom Kaye from NOAA via a friend. This data was handed over to R99. I then handed over data related to the placard--area, weight, rigidity--to R99.
Applying science and math, R99 proved that the placard would drift approximately nine miles to the northeast after separation from 305. Therefore, given that we know where the placard was found it was simply a matter of reverse engineering and determining where the jet was when it separated--coincidentally it put 305 on the Western Flight Path. Sad but true for them there FBI Flight Pathers.
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The radiosonde data from weather balloons was obtained by Tom Kaye from NOAA via a friend. This data was handed over to R99. I then handed over data related to the placard--area, weight, rigidity--to R99.
Applying science and math, R99 proved that the placard would drift approximately nine miles to the northeast after separation from 305. Therefore, given that we know where the placard was found it was simply a matter of reverse engineering and determining where the jet was when it separated--coincidentally it put 305 on the Western Flight Path. Sad but true for them there FBI Flight Pathers.
Then why does Tom Kaye disagree with you and R99? Why did Hominid disagree with R99 ?
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The radiosonde data from weather balloons was obtained by Tom Kaye from NOAA via a friend. This data was handed over to R99. I then handed over data related to the placard--area, weight, rigidity--to R99.
Applying science and math, R99 proved that the placard would drift approximately nine miles to the northeast after separation from 305. Therefore, given that we know where the placard was found it was simply a matter of reverse engineering and determining where the jet was when it separated--coincidentally it put 305 on the Western Flight Path. Sad but true for them there FBI Flight Pathers.
Then why does Tom Kaye disagree with you and R99? Why did Hominid disagree with R99 ?
Tom does not disagree with us on the placard drift analysis.
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Oh, and by the way. for those gas lighters out there, the FBI used similar data to ascertain DB Cooper's dropzone relative to the FBI Flight Path, i.e., to the northeast.
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I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?
I am staying out of this. Its endless and pointless. Certain parties are going to hold onto their claims no matter what - to the end of Life.
If you want Tom Kaye docs write Tom Kaye!
If you want previous wx posts go to DZ. Search Hominid, who R99 disagreed with. Hom used Carr's FBI wx files Carr provided. Here is one of them. There are many pages... Carr turned to Hominid for interpretation and advice in the wx matter using original wx docs. Hom copied me with all docs and the conversations....
Beyond that this discussion is as pointless as antlers on a Miller Lite! Except to say the orig docs still exist. Posting limits here prevent posting any of them ...
Actually, I was hoping to see Kaye's weather info because of another avenue of inquiry I'm pursuing and not the one currently being discussed here. I had heard that Tom had put together weather data of all the Pacific Northwest. I assumed that info was publicly available, but couldn't find it.
weather underground give options to go back in time..
I know that Weather Underground does have historical weather data, but that is for the ground only and not winds aloft, correct?
My recollection is nobody ever found wind data for 10K feet. Again ask Kaye to share some of his data with you. Or find old posts at DZ about the weather.
Based on everyone's work, I think the weather 'that day' is a complex regional story. Except for R99, its a subject nobody wants to be pinned down about. Read Hominid's post at DZ for an overview.
Tom Kaye has posted here (or at least a link to it) the NOAA measured data for the winds aloft on the day of the hijacking in the Portland/Seattle area. And the altitudes covered goes well above 10,000 feet.
The forecast winds aloft for the Portland area were prepared and disseminated by the National Weather Service and the FAA. The actual measured winds aloft were slightly greater than forecast and they were from the southwest.
Do you have a link to the so-called "overview" that you say Hominid posted on DropZone that contradicts the above.
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I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?
I am staying out of this. Its endless and pointless. Certain parties are going to hold onto their claims no matter what - to the end of Life.
If you want Tom Kaye docs write Tom Kaye!
If you want previous wx posts go to DZ. Search Hominid, who R99 disagreed with. Hom used Carr's FBI wx files Carr provided. Here is one of them. There are many pages... Carr turned to Hominid for interpretation and advice in the wx matter using original wx docs. Hom copied me with all docs and the conversations....
Beyond that this discussion is as pointless as antlers on a Miller Lite! Except to say the orig docs still exist. Posting limits here prevent posting any of them ...
Actually, I was hoping to see Kaye's weather info because of another avenue of inquiry I'm pursuing and not the one currently being discussed here. I had heard that Tom had put together weather data of all the Pacific Northwest. I assumed that info was publicly available, but couldn't find it.
weather underground give options to go back in time..
I know that Weather Underground does have historical weather data, but that is for the ground only and not winds aloft, correct?
My recollection is nobody ever found wind data for 10K feet. Again ask Kaye to share some of his data with you. Or find old posts at DZ about the weather.
Based on everyone's work, I think the weather 'that day' is a complex regional story. Except for R99, its a subject nobody wants to be pinned down about. Read Hominid's post at DZ for an overview.
Tom Kaye has posted here (or at least a link to it) the NOAA measured data for the winds aloft on the day of the hijacking in the Portland/Seattle area. And the altitudes covered goes well above 10,000 feet.
The forecast winds aloft for the Portland area were prepared and disseminated by the National Weather Service and the FAA. The actual measured winds aloft were slightly greater than forecast and they were from the southwest.
Do you have a link to the so-called "overview" that you say Hominid posted on DropZone that contradicts the above.
Some of Hom's and some of your DZ posts, and some of Shutter's posts are here: https://www.dropzone.com/search/?q=Hominid&quick=1
Hominid was critical of your placard analysis.
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I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?
Specifically, which of Hominid's 198 posts in your link are you talking about?
I am staying out of this. Its endless and pointless. Certain parties are going to hold onto their claims no matter what - to the end of Life.
If you want Tom Kaye docs write Tom Kaye!
If you want previous wx posts go to DZ. Search Hominid, who R99 disagreed with. Hom used Carr's FBI wx files Carr provided. Here is one of them. There are many pages... Carr turned to Hominid for interpretation and advice in the wx matter using original wx docs. Hom copied me with all docs and the conversations....
Beyond that this discussion is as pointless as antlers on a Miller Lite! Except to say the orig docs still exist. Posting limits here prevent posting any of them ...
Actually, I was hoping to see Kaye's weather info because of another avenue of inquiry I'm pursuing and not the one currently being discussed here. I had heard that Tom had put together weather data of all the Pacific Northwest. I assumed that info was publicly available, but couldn't find it.
weather underground give options to go back in time..
I know that Weather Underground does have historical weather data, but that is for the ground only and not winds aloft, correct?
My recollection is nobody ever found wind data for 10K feet. Again ask Kaye to share some of his data with you. Or find old posts at DZ about the weather.
Based on everyone's work, I think the weather 'that day' is a complex regional story. Except for R99, its a subject nobody wants to be pinned down about. Read Hominid's post at DZ for an overview.
Tom Kaye has posted here (or at least a link to it) the NOAA measured data for the winds aloft on the day of the hijacking in the Portland/Seattle area. And the altitudes covered goes well above 10,000 feet.
The forecast winds aloft for the Portland area were prepared and disseminated by the National Weather Service and the FAA. The actual measured winds aloft were slightly greater than forecast and they were from the southwest.
Do you have a link to the so-called "overview" that you say Hominid posted on DropZone that contradicts the above.
Some of Hom's and some of your DZ posts, and some of Shutter's posts are here: https://www.dropzone.com/search/?q=Hominid&quick=1
Hominid was critical of your placard analysis.
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Well, I'm confused.
First, Weather Underground only has weather data from the Portland airport from the night of the hijacking. That data suggests that at 7pm the wind was blowing from the southeast at 5mph and shifted to blowing from the SSW at 12mph by 10pm. This would probably suggest that at the time Cooper bailed the wind was also blowing 5+mph from the SOUTH.
I can't find any weather or wind data between Portland airport and SeaTac. Nothing near where the placard was found. Nothing near Cinebar. Nothing near Ariel.
SeaTac's weather data also has the wind blowing from the south at 7pm but also shifting and blowing from the SOUTHEAST at 14mph.
My point is that I cannot find any substantial weather data for the route south between Seattle and Portland, and what data I did find suggests that the wind was blowing from the south or southeast and didn't shift to the SSW until after Cooper jumped.
That's why I am eager to find more weather data. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this as it has been taken for granted that the wind was blowing from the SSW at the time Cooper jumped.
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Well, I'm confused.
First, Weather Underground only has weather data from the Portland airport from the night of the hijacking. That data suggests that at 7pm the wind was blowing from the southeast at 5mph and shifted to blowing from the SSW at 12mph by 10pm. This would probably suggest that at the time Cooper bailed the wind was also blowing 5+mph from the SOUTH.
I can't find any weather or wind data between Portland airport and SeaTac. Nothing near where the placard was found. Nothing near Cinebar. Nothing near Ariel.
SeaTac's weather data also has the wind blowing from the south at 7pm but also shifting and blowing from the SOUTHEAST at 14mph.
My point is that I cannot find any substantial weather data for the route south between Seattle and Portland, and what data I did find suggests that the wind was blowing from the south or southeast and didn't shift to the SSW until after Cooper jumped.
That's why I am eager to find more weather data. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this as it has been taken for granted that the wind was blowing from the SSW at the time Cooper jumped.
Flyjack is now addressing all of 99's and Ulis' claims over at DZ: from Tie to Winds to Kaye data etc:
https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/page/2532/
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Well, I'm confused.
First, Weather Underground only has weather data from the Portland airport from the night of the hijacking. That data suggests that at 7pm the wind was blowing from the southeast at 5mph and shifted to blowing from the SSW at 12mph by 10pm. This would probably suggest that at the time Cooper bailed the wind was also blowing 5+mph from the SOUTH.
I can't find any weather or wind data between Portland airport and SeaTac. Nothing near where the placard was found. Nothing near Cinebar. Nothing near Ariel.
SeaTac's weather data also has the wind blowing from the south at 7pm but also shifting and blowing from the SOUTHEAST at 14mph.
My point is that I cannot find any substantial weather data for the route south between Seattle and Portland, and what data I did find suggests that the wind was blowing from the south or southeast and didn't shift to the SSW until after Cooper jumped.
That's why I am eager to find more weather data. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this as it has been taken for granted that the wind was blowing from the SSW at the time Cooper jumped.
Being it was 1971, no internet or computers, you are probably at the mercy of one guy drinking coffee trying to get out of there for Thanksgiving and not really doing the job accurately at a time many wish they had accurate info. The wind direction and velocity could really give a clue as to what he was up against and if he had better chance of avoiding the water if he indeed was near it? Which we do not really know. The money seems to make people believe that he was near the water I suppose.
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Flyjack is now addressing all of 99's and Ulis' claims over at DZ: from Tie to Winds to Kaye data etc:
https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/page/2532/
Who gives a damn what he says?
Now if he wants to man-up and debate LIVE on Darren's podcast, I'm down with that. But of course, that's not as easy as gas lighting everything from a computer screen in Canada.
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Posted in CooperCon by mistake....removed it...
You have to be careful looking at weather from most of these sites. they are ground winds only. winds aloft can and are greater the higher you go and they can also change direction from ground winds..same for temps, they will differ as well..
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Posted in CooperCon by mistake....removed it...
You have to be careful looking at weather from most of these sites. they are ground winds only. winds aloft can and are greater the higher you go and they can also change direction from ground winds..same for temps, they will differ as well..
Yeah, that's why I'd like to take a look at Tom's weather data if it exists. Tom himself seems to suggest that the wind pattern was more southerly than is commonly believed.
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On our ham radio jumps (www.parachutemobile.com) we open a few seconds after exiting. This gives us maximum hang time under open canopy to make radio contacts. We are exposed to winds aloft for much longer than free falling jumpers so we have to pay close attention to them in calculating our exit point. I’ve made radio jumps from as high as 18,000 ft. Winds up high can be screaming, as high as 50 knots or even more, with winds on the ground slow enough for safe landings (under 18 mph). I once made a jump from 18000 ft over Monterey CA where the winds at jump altitude were 67 knots. Winds on the ground were about 10 knots. I don’t really know what Cooper’s jump weather was like but I do know that there can be huge differences between winds aloft and winds on the ground.
377
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Flyjack is now addressing all of 99's and Ulis' claims over at DZ: from Tie to Winds to Kaye data etc:
https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/page/2532/
Who gives a damn what he says?
Now if he wants to man-up and debate LIVE on Darren's podcast, I'm down with that. But of course, that's not as easy as gas lighting everything from a computer screen in Canada.
Not sure if you are aware but I went over to that site, my first time, and I see about 3 hours agao, in the wee hours, they have mentioned you on the Cooper thread about this June party they are having. Something about you selling tickets? Just letting you know in case you were not aware. I am letting you know because they have updated or edited the post.
So they mention $1400 was found? This is seperate from the Tena Bar money find? Never heard that before.
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It costs money to do anything. you can't expect everything to be free. Robert Blevins whined about the museum charging $10 for parking. Robert goes negative at the first thing he doesn't like. he couldn't even afford to do anything without Greg.
If you wish to speak about money and Roberts free event, this would only apply if you have a tent and supplies needed for several days in the woods. you can bet it will exceed any cost of any other Cooper event if you have to buy everything needed to go to the free event. is this bad, of course not but it's no different than whining about an entrance fee.
Eric holds an event every year and you won't see all the 3rd grade schoolboy tactics Robert spews post after post. it's all hateful comments and redundant copy/paste drama. it's done in a professional manor.
The $1400 found was on Christensen's property and wasn't part of the ransom money and wasn't all in 20 dollar bills. I know plenty of people including myself who have buried money.
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It costs money to do anything. you can't expect everything to be free. Robert Blevins whined about the museum charging $10 for parking. Robert goes negative at the first thing he doesn't like. he couldn't even afford to do anything without Greg.
If you wish to speak about money and Roberts free event, this would only apply if you have a tent and supplies needed for several days in the woods. you can bet it will exceed any cost of any other Cooper event if you have to buy everything needed to go to the free event. is this bad, of course not but it's no different than whining about an entrance fee.
Eric holds an event every year and you won't see all the 3rd grade schoolboy tactics Robert spews post after post. it's all hateful comments and redundant copy/paste drama. it's done in a professional manor.
The $1400 found was on Christensen's property and wasn't part of the ransom money and wasn't all in 20 dollar bills. I know plenty of people including myself who have buried money.
Shutter, so that money, none of the serial numbers matched? As for spending money, I have mentioned before, at least 3 or 4 times the money DB made off with has been spent trying to find him. And still counting. LOL
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I think you are forgetting it's a government funded operation. probably millions spent with the FBI. I read a lot of comments on YouTube with the younger generation speaking out about the time gap, the amount stolen and what they have spent looking for him and it's all negative believing it's a waste of tax payers money.
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One has to wonder why Kenny Christiansen would bother burying money when he had that really groovy hiding place in his attic...hmmmm.
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One has to wonder why Kenny Christiansen would bother burying money when he had that really groovy hiding place in his attic...hmmmm.
Best chuckle of the day, Parrot.
... you must be feeling better....
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So did the third stewardess, who we never hear much about, Hancock, weigh in on his age and all of that? She is rarely mentioned but must have gotten a good look?
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So did the third stewardess, who we never hear much about, Hancock, weigh in on his age and all of that? She is rarely mentioned but must have gotten a good look?
Interview of Hancock - I think its in the Vault here.
11/24/71 Hancock Interview:
Alice Hancock a stewardess aboard Northwest Airlines Flight #305 provided the following information:
On November 24, 1971, Hancock stated that the individual who hijacked Northwest Airlines Flight #305, a Boeing 727, boarded the aircraft at Portland OR, and at the time he boarded he was carrying a briefcase which measured about 12 by 18 inches, and was dark brown or black in color. She stated that the hijacker handed another stewardess (Florence Schaffner) a ransom note demanding $200,000 dollars in cash. Hancock believes that the note was handed to Schaffner very shortly before takeoff from Portland. Hancock advised that the hijacker’s demands were communicated to the Captain of the aircraft via the aircraft’s intercom by another stewardess named Mucklow.
Hancock stated that the note the hijacker handed to Schaffner stated the hijacker had a bomb, in a briefcase he was carrying, and that he wanted $200,000 dollars and absolutely no trickery or interference or he would explode the bomb he said he was carrying. Hancock also advised the hijacker requested four parachutes. After the hijacker stated these demands, the stewardess named Schaffner went to the cockpit of the aircraft (with the note the hijacker had written and another list of his demands she had written as the hijacker dictated his demands to her), to advise the Captain of the plane of the situation. (In the meantime another stewardess named Mucklow took a seat beside the hijacker). Stewardess Schaffner remained in the cockpit until just before landing in Seattle. Meanwhile the hijacker remained in his seat and had another stewardess named Mucklow sit by him.
Hancock stated the hijacker assigned the stewardess named Mucklow to get off the plane in Seattle to get the money he demanded, and then after that she was to go off the airplane again and get four parachutes that he demanded. In addition to the parachutes and the money the hijacker also requested four crew meals. Hancock says that ‘Flo’ had told her that he hijacker wanted to go to Mexico and was very concerned throughout the flight about Sky Marshals being on board the aircraft.
Hancock stated that the subject made his demands known in this order:
1) He wanted the money brought on board first.
2) We wanted (passengers) off the aircraft after the money was on board.
3) We wanted parachutes and four crew meals.
4) He wanted the plane completely refueled.
5) We wanted maps.
She could not remember what kind of maps the subject requested.
During the flight, Hancock advises the hijacker wanted continual re-assurance that nothing was going to go wrong. She stated that the hijacker was good natured during the flight.
After the plane landed (at Seattle) and the passengers were off-loaded, Mucklow was on the telephone updating the hijacker’s demands to the Captain of the aircraft.
The hijacker then informed Mucklow to tell the other stewardesses and crew to remain on board. At this point Hancock states that the pilots of the aircraft wanted the stewardesses off the plane. (They tried to arrange this with the hijacker through Mucklow). Once the stewardesses were off the aircraft, Hancock states that the pilots had planned to get off the aircraft by jumping out through (a door in) the cockpit. (The hijacker however would not let Mucklow come forward). None of this happened because the hijacker could see them and they feared that he would set off the bomb that he had in his briefcase.
Then Schaffner went to the back of the plane and asked the hijacker directly if the stewardesses could go and he said: Whatever you girls would like”. Then Hancock and Schaffner left the plane with Mucklow still in the back with the hijacker.
Hancock describes the subject as a male Caucasian, olive complexion, age 38-45, 6’1”, 170-175 lbs, slim build, black hair, wavy (marcelled) and short on the back (Continental look?), He wore no hat and wore sunglasses with plastic frames which looked like prescription glasses. He wore a black trench coat, white shirt and tie, and dark slacks. He wore no gloves and was soft-spoken and had no accent. He had no visible scars or marks.
Hancock states that he had his hand inside the brief case at all times when he and Mucklow were seated together in row 18.
(During her final minutes on board and after the parachutes had been brought aboard), Hancock noticed that one of the parachutes had been unpacked and she asked the hijacker if he had taken the parachute apart and he replied “yes”. Hancock says the hijacker began unpacking one chute and cutting cords almost as soon as the chutes were brought on board.
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I've encouraged Eric to find a way to get Alice to CooperCon21. Ms. Hancock is a tough cookie, and as we ALL know, my "nice" is generally "not nice enough" to get the interview.
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I've encouraged Eric to find a way to get Alice to CooperCon21. Ms. Hancock is a tough cookie, and as we ALL know, my "nice" is generally "not nice enough" to get the interview.
Ive always found you to be very nice and personable. Anyway, I a sure you have heard of the experiments they did and proved beyond any doubt that WOMEN HAVE FAR BETTER ATTENTION TO DETAIL THAN MEN. They send men and women into the same room in a psychology experiment, and the woman, kicked the mens ass for lack of a better description at remembering all the details in the room. This could be a good thing in the case of the composite drawing and other things. Who knows what Ms Hancock, the overlooked one in all of this , can say? Thats all.
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I've encouraged Eric to find a way to get Alice to CooperCon21. Ms. Hancock is a tough cookie, and as we ALL know, my "nice" is generally "not nice enough" to get the interview.
...I've always found you to be very nice and personable....
Thank you. Maybe you can tell Tina for me...
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I've encouraged Eric to find a way to get Alice to CooperCon21. Ms. Hancock is a tough cookie, and as we ALL know, my "nice" is generally "not nice enough" to get the interview.
Ive always found you to be very nice and personable. Anyway, I a sure you have heard of the experiments they did and proved beyond any doubt that WOMEN HAVE FAR BETTER ATTENTION TO DETAIL THAN MEN. They send men and women into the same room in a psychology experiment, and the woman, kicked the mens ass for lack of a better description at remembering all the details in the room. This could be a good thing in the case of the composite drawing and other things. Who knows what Ms Hancock, the overlooked one in all of this , can say? Thats all.
some well known statistical confirmation of your observation. Girls 5-12 in our culture always out-score boys in analytical and perceptual skills (like math and story detail recollection). There may be a genetic component to this. Its probably due to how girls are nurtured vs boys to age 12. By age 14 the curves begin to merge and by 20 boys traditionally surpass girls in technical skills in tests, as a class. Boys then go on to science and technical training - girls take other occupational tracks except for the few that have very high intelligence and the drive to succeed as doctors, lawyers, etc. More women in technical occupations today than ever before ... far more than in their mother's and grandmother's generations. Remember the old right brain vs left brain stereotype for Men vs Women?
I will attach an emoji here. Im not cyberbullying! :rofl:
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I've encouraged Eric to find a way to get Alice to CooperCon21. Ms. Hancock is a tough cookie, and as we ALL know, my "nice" is generally "not nice enough" to get the interview.
...I've always found you to be very nice and personable....
Thank you. Maybe you can tell Tina for me...
So I take it Tina is not one to want to talk about this case that likely ruined parts of her life? Its too bad because she holds the biggest key to this whole thing since the cigarette butts are poof. So no DNA, the next best try is Tina. She is the one that got to interact with him and she is the only one, well maybe Flo, that could possibly get a jolt of memory if she heard his voice or something? Its a stretch but this entire goose chase is a stretch. Sure it could break open if someone came out of the woodwork with evidence. I would not give up on Tina, no way.
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Can anyone provide specifics as to the FBI’s investigation into missing persons at the time of the hijacking?
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Can anyone provide specifics as to the FBI’s investigation into missing persons at the time of the hijacking?
I know it's been discussed before but god knows where lol. There is a missing person thread on this site concerning someone who disappeared some time before the skyjacking- ie. was already missing - but I don't know what their background was apart from counterfeiting, it's been a while since reading it.
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I've encouraged Eric to find a way to get Alice to CooperCon21. Ms. Hancock is a tough cookie, and as we ALL know, my "nice" is generally "not nice enough" to get the interview.
...I've always found you to be very nice and personable....
Thank you. Maybe you can tell Tina for me...
So I take it Tina is not one to want to talk about this case that likely ruined parts of her life? Its too bad because she holds the biggest key to this whole thing since the cigarette butts are poof. So no DNA, the next best try is Tina. She is the one that got to interact with him and she is the only one, well maybe Flo, that could possibly get a jolt of memory if she heard his voice or something? Its a stretch but this entire goose chase is a stretch. Sure it could break open if someone came out of the woodwork with evidence. I would not give up on Tina, no way.
She did a recent interview, the upshot being that she is now speaking a bit more, is being very circumspect about who she's talking with, and while she understands why people want to know and are frustrated by the unsolved mystery, they have to realize that the people who were there moved on with their lives and may not have the same priorities. She particularly mentions that about 90-95% of those approaching her are male and some in the past made her uncomfortable at her home/work, one even telling her that as a Christian she should tell all she knew - which she feels she has. Some have accused her of being traumatized/irrational or insulted her age/memory/eyesight if she said a particular suspect's photo did not match her memory of Cooper. She has devoted her life to helping others in various ways and seems a calm, rational, quiet, kind, intelligent woman who simply doesn't want, in her 70's, to be harassed over an incident in her 20's. If she refuses an interview request, people must simply respect that. She has a right to her own life.
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Can anyone provide specifics as to the FBI’s investigation into missing persons at the time of the hijacking?
I know it's been discussed before but god knows where lol. There is a missing person thread on this site concerning someone who disappeared some time before the skyjacking- ie. was already missing - but I don't know what their background was apart from counterfeiting, it's been a while since reading it.
I guess my question relates specifically to how intensive or wide spread the FBI’s investigation into missing persons at the time, and trying to cross-reference Cooper to them.
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Can anyone provide specifics as to the FBI’s investigation into missing persons at the time of the hijacking?
I know it's been discussed before but god knows where lol. There is a missing person thread on this site concerning someone who disappeared some time before the skyjacking- ie. was already missing - but I don't know what their background was apart from counterfeiting, it's been a while since reading it.
I guess my question relates specifically to how intensive or wide spread the FBI’s investigation into missing persons at the time, and trying to cross-reference Cooper to them.
I think the only people who could answer this is the FBI... the Portland office did make a long term effort to check body/corpse-found records in Clark County --- that effort was renewed several times and again after the 1975-6 San Francisco Conference. There are 302s documenting that effort. Missing person reports for the whole USA were tagged if they connected to some suspect being examined through tips or LE's list of suspects under examination.
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I would assume that, following the hijacking, the FBI searched all missing persons cases to see if any matched Cooper’s description. However, I haven’t seen anything official that confirms that.
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I would assume that, following the hijacking, the FBI searched all missing persons cases to see if any matched Cooper’s description. However, I haven’t seen anything official that confirms that.
I remember a brief memo in the FBI releases about it, but I do not have the reference numbers written down anywhere. When I review the FBI releases this summer, I will look for it.
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I would assume that, following the hijacking, the FBI searched all missing persons cases to see if any matched Cooper’s description. However, I haven’t seen anything official that confirms that.
Just posted by FJ.
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“...a manual search of the FBI’s indices...”
This suggests someone literally thumbing through hundreds - maybe thousands - of missing persons case by hand. Also, the FBI only involves itself in missing person cases if it is requested to by the local investigative agency or if it involves a kidnapping that crosses state lines.
The bottom line is that any suggestion that the FBI conducted a comprehensive search of all missing persons cases throughout North America is false.
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“...a manual search of the FBI’s indices...”
This suggests someone literally thumbing through hundreds - maybe thousands - of missing persons case by hand. Also, the FBI only involves itself in missing person cases if it is requested to by the local investigative agency or if it involves a kidnapping that crosses state lines.
The bottom line is that any suggestion that the FBI conducted a comprehensive search of all missing persons cases throughout North America is false.
I do recall some suspect files (I read hundreds of them) came from tips - some of the tips included the person being missing or hadn't been seen for some time and the like ... we arent in any position to really make a statement about this. I guess that's my main point. People's missing reports are sometimes hearsay. People sometimes go missing intentionally for reasons having nothing to do with DB Cooper! (like kids running from the Nazis during WWII and its aftermath ....).
If you had to choose between having the FBI's partial vs a missing person report - which would you take?
*According to NamUs (National Missing and Unidentified Persons System), more than 600,000 persons go missing in the United States every year as a conservative estimate. Anywhere between 89 - 92 percent of those missing people are recovered every year, either alive or deceased or surface on their own. A large fraction surface on their own.
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I went through NameUS about 6 years ago, as well as the Canadian missing persons database, and came up with nothing. Dick Lepsy and Mel Wilson are the only missing persons even marginally linked with the case, and neither one is a good match for Cooper for a variety of reasons.
The FBI investigation of missing person Jack Scott Farmer is the probably the most interesting investigation in the FBI files released so far and is worth a look.
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I went through NameUS about 6 years ago, as well as the Canadian missing persons database, and came up with nothing. Dick Lepsy and Mel Wilson are the only missing persons even marginally linked with the case, and neither one is a good match for Cooper for a variety of reasons.
The FBI investigation of missing person Jack Scott Farmer is the probably the most interesting investigation in the FBI files released so far and is worth a look.
The vast majority of missing persons never end up in a police report or a database. On any given day, there are 80,000 to 90,000 missing persons on NCIC and near 100,000 missing persons on NAMUS, but there are an estimated 1.5 million people who are missing and are never reported to authorities.
Lots of reasons for someone to go missing and not be reported, but it's quite possible Cooper was among this group.
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“...a manual search of the FBI’s indices...”
This suggests someone literally thumbing through hundreds - maybe thousands - of missing persons case by hand. Also, the FBI only involves itself in missing person cases if it is requested to by the local investigative agency or if it involves a kidnapping that crosses state lines.
The bottom line is that any suggestion that the FBI conducted a comprehensive search of all missing persons cases throughout North America is false.
I do recall some suspect files (I read hundreds of them) came from tips - some of the tips included the person being missing or hadn't been seen for some time and the like ... we arent in any position to really make a statement about this. I guess that's my main point. People's missing reports are sometimes hearsay. People sometimes go missing intentionally for reasons having nothing to do with DB Cooper! (like kids running from the Nazis during WWII and its aftermath ....).
If you had to choose between having the FBI's partial vs a missing person report - which would you take?
*According to NamUs (National Missing and Unidentified Persons System), more than 600,000 persons go missing in the United States every year as a conservative estimate. Anywhere between 89 - 92 percent of those missing people are recovered every year, either alive or deceased or surface on their own. A large fraction surface on their own.
I'm not knocking the effort of the FBI. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't appear to be a comphrensive cross-reference of missing person cases at that time. That may not have been possible in 1971.
Some have assumed that because Cooper wasn't reported as missing, then that means he survived the jumped and went on and lived a long life. My point is that is not an accurate assumption to make. People can be missing and not appear in any list or database or report. Cooper might have been among them.
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“...a manual search of the FBI’s indices...”
This suggests someone literally thumbing through hundreds - maybe thousands - of missing persons case by hand. Also, the FBI only involves itself in missing person cases if it is requested to by the local investigative agency or if it involves a kidnapping that crosses state lines.
The bottom line is that any suggestion that the FBI conducted a comprehensive search of all missing persons cases throughout North America is false.
I do recall some suspect files (I read hundreds of them) came from tips - some of the tips included the person being missing or hadn't been seen for some time and the like ... we arent in any position to really make a statement about this. I guess that's my main point. People's missing reports are sometimes hearsay. People sometimes go missing intentionally for reasons having nothing to do with DB Cooper! (like kids running from the Nazis during WWII and its aftermath ....).
If you had to choose between having the FBI's partial vs a missing person report - which would you take?
*According to NamUs (National Missing and Unidentified Persons System), more than 600,000 persons go missing in the United States every year as a conservative estimate. Anywhere between 89 - 92 percent of those missing people are recovered every year, either alive or deceased or surface on their own. A large fraction surface on their own.
I'm not knocking the effort of the FBI. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't appear to be a comphrensive cross-reference of missing person cases at that time. That may not have been possible in 1971.
Some have assumed that because Cooper wasn't reported as missing, then that means he survived the jumped and went on and lived a long life. My point is that is not an accurate assumption to make. People can be missing and not appear in any list or database or report. Cooper might have been among them.
Something else I did when I went through these databases was to look at middle-age John Does, i.e. unidentified bodies of middle-aged men found in Oregon and Washington state in the years surrounding the hijacking. The goal was to identify the *kind* of person who can disappear and/or die and not be missed.
These men fell into two categories: homeless substance abusers (one interesting one was a well-known drug abuser at a hobo camp), and what I labelled "mountain men", rural men without friends or family who often travelled deep into the forest to commit suicide late in their lives.
Neither archetype fit my profile for Cooper so I moved on, however it would be interesting to see more research in this area.
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“...a manual search of the FBI’s indices...”
This suggests someone literally thumbing through hundreds - maybe thousands - of missing persons case by hand. Also, the FBI only involves itself in missing person cases if it is requested to by the local investigative agency or if it involves a kidnapping that crosses state lines.
The bottom line is that any suggestion that the FBI conducted a comprehensive search of all missing persons cases throughout North America is false.
I do recall some suspect files (I read hundreds of them) came from tips - some of the tips included the person being missing or hadn't been seen for some time and the like ... we arent in any position to really make a statement about this. I guess that's my main point. People's missing reports are sometimes hearsay. People sometimes go missing intentionally for reasons having nothing to do with DB Cooper! (like kids running from the Nazis during WWII and its aftermath ....).
If you had to choose between having the FBI's partial vs a missing person report - which would you take?
*According to NamUs (National Missing and Unidentified Persons System), more than 600,000 persons go missing in the United States every year as a conservative estimate. Anywhere between 89 - 92 percent of those missing people are recovered every year, either alive or deceased or surface on their own. A large fraction surface on their own.
I'm not knocking the effort of the FBI. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't appear to be a comphrensive cross-reference of missing person cases at that time. That may not have been possible in 1971.
Some have assumed that because Cooper wasn't reported as missing, then that means he survived the jumped and went on and lived a long life. My point is that is not an accurate assumption to make. People can be missing and not appear in any list or database or report. Cooper might have been among them.
Something else I did when I went through these databases was to look at middle-age John Does, i.e. unidentified bodies of middle-aged men found in Oregon and Washington state in the years surrounding the hijacking. The goal was to identify the *kind* of person who can disappear and/or die and not be missed.
These men fell into two categories: homeless substance abusers (one interesting one was a well-known drug abuser at a hobo camp), and what I labelled "mountain men", rural men without friends or family who often travelled deep into the forest to commit suicide late in their lives.
Neither archetype fit my profile for Cooper so I moved on, however it would be interesting to see more research in this area.
I have identified someone from this "missing missing" group who perfectly matches Cooper's description, is the right age, and disappeared at around the same time. There are other interesting pieces of evidence as well. I am waiting on some public records requests to process before I release anything.
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“...a manual search of the FBI’s indices...”
This suggests someone literally thumbing through hundreds - maybe thousands - of missing persons case by hand. Also, the FBI only involves itself in missing person cases if it is requested to by the local investigative agency or if it involves a kidnapping that crosses state lines.
The bottom line is that any suggestion that the FBI conducted a comprehensive search of all missing persons cases throughout North America is false.
I do recall some suspect files (I read hundreds of them) came from tips - some of the tips included the person being missing or hadn't been seen for some time and the like ... we arent in any position to really make a statement about this. I guess that's my main point. People's missing reports are sometimes hearsay. People sometimes go missing intentionally for reasons having nothing to do with DB Cooper! (like kids running from the Nazis during WWII and its aftermath ....).
If you had to choose between having the FBI's partial vs a missing person report - which would you take?
*According to NamUs (National Missing and Unidentified Persons System), more than 600,000 persons go missing in the United States every year as a conservative estimate. Anywhere between 89 - 92 percent of those missing people are recovered every year, either alive or deceased or surface on their own. A large fraction surface on their own.
I'm not knocking the effort of the FBI. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't appear to be a comphrensive cross-reference of missing person cases at that time. That may not have been possible in 1971.
Some have assumed that because Cooper wasn't reported as missing, then that means he survived the jumped and went on and lived a long life. My point is that is not an accurate assumption to make. People can be missing and not appear in any list or database or report. Cooper might have been among them.
Something else I did when I went through these databases was to look at middle-age John Does, i.e. unidentified bodies of middle-aged men found in Oregon and Washington state in the years surrounding the hijacking. The goal was to identify the *kind* of person who can disappear and/or die and not be missed.
These men fell into two categories: homeless substance abusers (one interesting one was a well-known drug abuser at a hobo camp), and what I labelled "mountain men", rural men without friends or family who often travelled deep into the forest to commit suicide late in their lives.
Neither archetype fit my profile for Cooper so I moved on, however it would be interesting to see more research in this area.
Was Latin in your archetype ?
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“...a manual search of the FBI’s indices...”
This suggests someone literally thumbing through hundreds - maybe thousands - of missing persons case by hand. Also, the FBI only involves itself in missing person cases if it is requested to by the local investigative agency or if it involves a kidnapping that crosses state lines.
The bottom line is that any suggestion that the FBI conducted a comprehensive search of all missing persons cases throughout North America is false.
I do recall some suspect files (I read hundreds of them) came from tips - some of the tips included the person being missing or hadn't been seen for some time and the like ... we arent in any position to really make a statement about this. I guess that's my main point. People's missing reports are sometimes hearsay. People sometimes go missing intentionally for reasons having nothing to do with DB Cooper! (like kids running from the Nazis during WWII and its aftermath ....).
If you had to choose between having the FBI's partial vs a missing person report - which would you take?
*According to NamUs (National Missing and Unidentified Persons System), more than 600,000 persons go missing in the United States every year as a conservative estimate. Anywhere between 89 - 92 percent of those missing people are recovered every year, either alive or deceased or surface on their own. A large fraction surface on their own.
I'm not knocking the effort of the FBI. I'm just pointing out that it doesn't appear to be a comphrensive cross-reference of missing person cases at that time. That may not have been possible in 1971.
Some have assumed that because Cooper wasn't reported as missing, then that means he survived the jumped and went on and lived a long life. My point is that is not an accurate assumption to make. People can be missing and not appear in any list or database or report. Cooper might have been among them.
Something else I did when I went through these databases was to look at middle-age John Does, i.e. unidentified bodies of middle-aged men found in Oregon and Washington state in the years surrounding the hijacking. The goal was to identify the *kind* of person who can disappear and/or die and not be missed.
These men fell into two categories: homeless substance abusers (one interesting one was a well-known drug abuser at a hobo camp), and what I labelled "mountain men", rural men without friends or family who often travelled deep into the forest to commit suicide late in their lives.
Neither archetype fit my profile for Cooper so I moved on, however it would be interesting to see more research in this area.
Was Latin in your archetype ?
Yes. Half-Mexican, half-Italian.
Im not prepared to declare him a suspect. I still have some things to look into, but so far there’s nothing to immediately dismiss them.
Unlike some folks, I’m not willing to twist things to make a suspect “fit”.
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I've encouraged Eric to find a way to get Alice to CooperCon21. Ms. Hancock is a tough cookie, and as we ALL know, my "nice" is generally "not nice enough" to get the interview.
I respect your take and her rights. But it would be nice if someone could ask her nicely to give it one more shot. Try and reach out. If the old boy is still alive, he might answer her? He sure as hell is not going to bite on anyone else’s line. What could it hurt for her to just put out the question and say “I just want to know if you made it? Just send me an answer and some form of proof like a $20 bill”.? To. Weed out the crazies that will respond. Likely no real answer would come but its worth a shot. Just like combing those woods again with a metal detector.
So I hear there is lots of violence recently in Portland. Be careful to all of f you that are going there
...I've always found you to be very nice and personable....
Thank you. Maybe you can tell Tina for me...
So I take it Tina is not one to want to talk about this case that likely ruined parts of her life? Its too bad because she holds the biggest key to this whole thing since the cigarette butts are poof. So no DNA, the next best try is Tina. She is the one that got to interact with him and she is the only one, well maybe Flo, that could possibly get a jolt of memory if she heard his voice or something? Its a stretch but this entire goose chase is a stretch. Sure it could break open if someone came out of the woodwork with evidence. I would not give up on Tina, no way.
She did a recent interview, the upshot being that she is now speaking a bit more, is being very circumspect about who she's talking with, and while she understands why people want to know and are frustrated by the unsolved mystery, they have to realize that the people who were there moved on with their lives and may not have the same priorities. She particularly mentions that about 90-95% of those approaching her are male and some in the past made her uncomfortable at her home/work, one even telling her that as a Christian she should tell all she knew - which she feels she has. Some have accused her of being traumatized/irrational or insulted her age/memory/eyesight if she said a particular suspect's photo did not match her memory of Cooper. She has devoted her life to helping others in various ways and seems a calm, rational, quiet, kind, intelligent woman who simply doesn't want, in her 70's, to be harassed over an incident in her 20's. If she refuses an interview request, people must simply respect that. She has a right to her own life.
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The difficulty, DF, is that Tina is not only the primary witness to the DB Cooper skyjacking, she seems to have unique and valuable information no one else can provide. Unfortunately, Tina's recent behaviors add suspicion to her and her statements. Slamming doors in reporter's faces is not the way to engender trust or belief in her statements. Nor is cherry-picking details from her life to share with the reporters she does choose to engage.
Yes, I agree, inquiries must be conducted in a manner that is not "harassing" to Tina. But Tina is now a public persona. Besides being the FBI's chief witness, she volunteered to appear in a lengthy History Channel docu and a HBO production. Plus, she agreed to a full-length interview in Rolling Stone, and of course, her short piece in the Eugene Weekly back in 2012.
I agree, Tina must be exhausted by the Norjak media circus. I would be extremely frustrated by those who continued to champion Richard McCoy after I and the FAs had dismissed him as a Cooper suspect back in 1972. That's 49 years of not being listened to, nor believed. Whew....
I got the sense in talking with Bill Mitchell that the FBI takes advantage of folks like Tina and Bill. Instead of working diligently to investigate suspects, they seem to just grab up a daily stack of pix and dance over to Tina and Bill and say, "Are any of these guys Cooper?" In effect, many FBI agents seem to want the witnesses to do the heavy lifting. They shoved 1,500 pix in front of Bill over the years. They couldn't have done a better job of vetting the suspects?
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The difficulty, DF, is that Tina is not only the primary witness to the DB Cooper skyjacking, she seems to have unique and valuable information no one else can provide. Unfortunately, Tina's recent behaviors add suspicion to her and her statements. Slamming doors in reporter's faces is not the way to engender trust or belief in her statements. Nor is cherry-picking details from her life to share with the reporters she does choose to engage.
Yes, I agree, inquiries must be conducted in a manner that is not "harassing" to Tina. But Tina is now a public persona. Besides being the FBI's chief witness, she volunteered to appear in a lengthy History Channel docu and a HBO production. Plus, she agreed to a full-length interview in Rolling Stone, and of course, her short piece in the Eugene Weekly back in 2012.
I agree, Tina must be exhausted by the Norjak media circus. I would be extremely frustrated by those who continued to champion Richard McCoy after I and the FAs had dismissed him as a Cooper suspect back in 1972. That's 49 years of not being listened to, nor believed. Whew....
I got the sense in talking with Bill Mitchell that the FBI takes advantage of folks like Tina and Bill. Instead of working diligently to investigate suspects, they seem to just grab up a daily stack of pix and dance over to Tina and Bill and say, "Are any of these guys Cooper?" In effect, many FBI agents seem to want the witnesses to do the heavy lifting. They shoved 1,500 pix in front of Bill over the years. They couldn't have done a better job of vetting the suspects?
So the takeaway is: this is a personal contest/feud between you and Tina Mucklow ... and the FBI.
So far as I can find, you were not a part of the original DB Cooper hijacking. You arent mentioned in the case by anyone. You have inserted yourself. Why should Tina Mucklow have to deal with any of that or you? When and how did the DB Cooper hijacking become about Bruce Smith, and why? Aren't you extraneous to the whole matter? ;)
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The difficulty, DF, is that Tina is not only the primary witness to the DB Cooper skyjacking, she seems to have unique and valuable information no one else can provide. Unfortunately, Tina's recent behaviors add suspicion to her and her statements. Slamming doors in reporter's faces is not the way to engender trust or belief in her statements. Nor is cherry-picking details from her life to share with the reporters she does choose to engage.
Yes, I agree, inquiries must be conducted in a manner that is not "harassing" to Tina. But Tina is now a public persona. Besides being the FBI's chief witness, she volunteered to appear in a lengthy History Channel docu and a HBO production. Plus, she agreed to a full-length interview in Rolling Stone, and of course, her short piece in the Eugene Weekly back in 2012.
I agree, Tina must be exhausted by the Norjak media circus. I would be extremely frustrated by those who continued to champion Richard McCoy after I and the FAs had dismissed him as a Cooper suspect back in 1972. That's 49 years of not being listened to, nor believed. Whew....
I got the sense in talking with Bill Mitchell that the FBI takes advantage of folks like Tina and Bill. Instead of working diligently to investigate suspects, they seem to just grab up a daily stack of pix and dance over to Tina and Bill and say, "Are any of these guys Cooper?" In effect, many FBI agents seem to want the witnesses to do the heavy lifting. They shoved 1,500 pix in front of Bill over the years. They couldn't have done a better job of vetting the suspects?
I totally get what Georger is saying in the post below this one where he says you are not part of the actual investigation. But you have spent much of your life on this. Tina does not care about that however. So you obviously cannot be the one to try and approach her. It would be like sending Hoover after Dillinger. I a knee jerk analogy. It HAS TO BE A WOMAN. She is going to respond to a woman in a manner where she is not ready to slam the door. But the woman will have to be clever and assure her she will not betray her confidences. I would recruit a woman with very high knowledge of the case to approach her. She is going to be suspicious of course of anyone that she does not know. Too bad one of those sisters from the convent she joined was not up to speed on this? You guys know the players better than I . You need a woman to approach her. Have her ask "would you not at least be interested if he survived the jump that night and if he were still alive? After all, he was very nice to you, and I doubt he ever was going to kill you or your co workers. " Now we know Flo Schaffner wants no part of this, and she may be tougher to crack than Mucklow, but she is not as valuable as Tina. Not sure about the other one. But I doubt DB cares much about her. Tick Tock. The clock is near midnight Bruce
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I am the eternal optimist.
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I have looked everywhere and I have only found fakes and reproductions.
Does anyone know where I could buy an authentic DB Cooper wanted poster from 1971/72?
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Interesting pursuit, Chaucer.
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The difficulty, DF, is that Tina is not only the primary witness to the DB Cooper skyjacking, she seems to have unique and valuable information no one else can provide. Unfortunately, Tina's recent behaviors add suspicion to her and her statements. Slamming doors in reporter's faces is not the way to engender trust or belief in her statements. Nor is cherry-picking details from her life to share with the reporters she does choose to engage.
Yes, I agree, inquiries must be conducted in a manner that is not "harassing" to Tina. But Tina is now a public persona. Besides being the FBI's chief witness, she volunteered to appear in a lengthy History Channel docu and a HBO production. Plus, she agreed to a full-length interview in Rolling Stone, and of course, her short piece in the Eugene Weekly back in 2012.
I agree, Tina must be exhausted by the Norjak media circus. I would be extremely frustrated by those who continued to champion Richard McCoy after I and the FAs had dismissed him as a Cooper suspect back in 1972. That's 49 years of not being listened to, nor believed. Whew....
I got the sense in talking with Bill Mitchell that the FBI takes advantage of folks like Tina and Bill. Instead of working diligently to investigate suspects, they seem to just grab up a daily stack of pix and dance over to Tina and Bill and say, "Are any of these guys Cooper?" In effect, many FBI agents seem to want the witnesses to do the heavy lifting. They shoved 1,500 pix in front of Bill over the years. They couldn't have done a better job of vetting the suspects?
Hey Bruce. But you are very sure it can’t be McCoy right?
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Very sure? No. Pretty sure, though.
Consider:
1. Tina said "Nope."
2. McCoy's ears really stick out.
3. McCoy too young, and too short.
Yo, Fan. Whaddaya think of McCoy being part of an extraction team for DBC?
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Very sure? No. Pretty sure, though.
What was McCoy's height? I don't recall it. McCoy was young but looked older than he was. I know Tina no, and he had big ears. I understand why he was considered for being Cooper.
Consider:
1. Tina said "Nope."
2. McCoy's ears really stick out.
3. McCoy too young, and too short.
Yo, Fan. Whaddaya think of McCoy being part of an extraction team for DBC?
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I am not sure exactly how to post a new topic im new here but im hoping you dont mind me putting this here. I hope what I have to say just might interest everyone.
You tell me, I know what I firmly believe as well as what my family believes AND MOST IMPORTANTLY a small town police dectetive found enough credibility in what I had shown him to go ahead an turn it over to the FBI but of course the FBI wont so much as notion the idea unless the parachute or money is brought forth. Well I am going to now put my story out there as well as give some of my opinions in to what I think happened in 1971 an to what just of happened to the money an than social media can decide from here on out. At least I will know that I too told what I kbow an whatever happens from here on out happens knoeing I too tried to get what I know out there. I can say this an that is if by some fluke of a chance the person in question is not Cooper than without any doubt whatsoever this (these) people I'm about to tell you about knows who Cooper is. I believe one way or another these men are the answer in solving just who Cooper really is an the ONLY REASON this case has yet to be solved is because no one has considered other options, they have not been thinking outside the box an opening their minds a bit on circumstances such as the AGE of DB Cooper, his OCCUPATION an more. This is my story, my thoughts an opinions. Could it be I do know who Cooper really is an he's not in anyways deceased but alive an living in a quaint little town up in Skagit County, WA. Here is my story. It was about 9 years ago when my husband came home one evening an asked if we had enough room for two more for dinner. Sure I tell him. I'm not going to give you any real names here so we will call the man to be Cooper Dan. Ok back to it, my husband introduced me to these nice two much older men he says to me Tamy this is Dan an this is Jesse an I happened to meet them this afternoon an they offered me a job going gold mining with them. I kind of laughed an said ah ok so now your going to strike it rich gold mining are ya (little did I know my husband just might have brought home another type of gold thay evening) My husband explained to me that they have been gold miners for the past fifty plus years that they are not some men just out goofing around etc an that he was going to be joining them on their next expedition along the skagit river. And that is how Dan an Jesse had become to be in our lives. For the next year my family an I got to know these two men very well, they had spent allot of time with us having dinners drinks etc oh an the drink of choice by both men nonetheless BOURBON an SODA an as Dan always liked to say to me when I would make his drinks "No funny stuff now Tamy, make it strong" as he lite up his Canadian brand cigarette. Dan an Jesse did not have any other job beside the gold mining yet they always had money. They were by no means well off an live a very humbolt if not more on the poor side of life out in their small farm home in the country. Dan an Jesse liked to talk an talk ALLOT , seemed "back in the day" they spent a great deal of time in mexico, Canada an California. They have family in Alaska and Canada as well. One thing they talked about quite a bit was that they had a well to do relative that they would one day inherit a substantial amount of money from. Dan at times when he had a little too much to drink had a bit of a Canadian accent, not too much of one but enough that you could hear it every now an than depending on his moods. Both men are just your basic down to earth men. They do speak with respect when addressing others such as meeting someone like my father by saying Sir or Sirs an woman mam. For the most part very respectful. When it comes to Dan however he also has a bitter side to him in fact there were times he would get quite angry. Jesse not so much he was basically just kind and kept more of a low key but I would not be honest if I didnt say that Dan on the other hand would frighten me from time to time and my daughter as well. My daughter would say that she now no longer thinks of Dan as a nice man. There have been some things that had happened in the past five years to where my daughter said she saw an awful side to Dan, a very angry side to him an even though she does believe that Dan is Cooper (she's not one to believe so easy in fact it took some time but the evidence convinced her) she had asked me to plesse let this go, this meaning going forward an exposing him because she thinks I just might get hurt. My daughter might be right and a few others as well as my own father has asked me to put a stop to it and I did, for the past 6 years I let it rest but in leiu of the 50th anniversary coming up there is also the fact that there are so many out there claiming to either be Cooper or have known him "My decessed uncle jumped so many feet to soon because" etc Well I have a story to an one with much more consciences than anyone else has ever brought forward so WHY NOT TELL MY SYORY an see if anyone else thinks that just maybe Cooper is alive an the reason this has not been solved is for the simple fact we've been looking at this all wrong. Anyway back to how Dan became known to us as Cooper. It was about a year after we met Dan an Jesse that my husband came home late one evening when he woke me up Tamy wake up he says as he shakes my shoulder till I wake up. What is it I asked, My husband hands me two pieces of paper one is a Sketch of a man an one is a real life photo. What is this all about I asked. Do you know who Db cooper is my husband asks me. I honestly had no idea at all. Sorry never did well in history I just had no idea whatsoever who Db cooper was BUT I WAS ABOUT TO FIND OUT an what comes next I hope you too will find quite interesting. Back to the two pictures. My husband asked if i thought the sketch looked anything like the real life photo an of course it did I said it was dead on, its as if the sketch came to life, the eyes the shape the hair the ears I MEAN EVERY DETAIL ON THE SKETCH WAS BROOGHT TO LIFE IN THE PHOTO an ill tell you this, after I looked into everything online an looked at all the photos of all suspects that there is not one photo ever put out there that came even near as close to what I had in my hands. Yes there were others that came close had some resemblance but no one an I do mean NO ONE HAD WHAT I HAD AN THAT WAS A DEAD ON EVERY DETAIL IN THE SKETCH WAS LITERALLY BROUGHT TO LIFE IT WAS 100 PERCENT MATCH one being in black an white an the an the other a real life in full color photo! On the back of the photo it said "its me im not dead but alive an well, no funny stuff im Db cooper" My husband than proceeds to tell me that Dan had confessed to him this evening that he was none other than DB Cooper. Dan had asked my husband not to tell anyone not even me an that the reason he told my husband was because he felt that since they have become such good friends, work together etc an if course along with a little too much to drink he confessed to my husband an gave him a photo of himself at the time the hijacking occured. To be honest I really just assumed it was the alcohol talking but the picture an sketch, well lets just say it was enough to get my attention an start doing some of my own investigating on this matter and so I did. For the next few months I researched everything I could possibly find out about this Db cooper. Besides the photo there was the way these men lived, exactly as profiled by the FBI than there were the ties to mexico Canada an more than we had the drinks Bourbon an soda the Canadian cigaretts he smoked an how he would often say things to me "no funny stuff Tamy" an no he was not trying to convince me he was Cooper this was just the way he talked and lived. One of the letters Cooper so called sent it started with "sirs" as did a letter Dan sent to someone else, it stated the same way. In trying to sum all this up an move on ill just say I decided to take the photo to the local police dept an see what they thought. To be honest I felt stupid an that Iwould probably just be laughed at but this weren't the case at all. When I handed the detective the sketch an the real life photo I will never forget the look on his face nor the exact words that came out of his mouth. First of all his eyes looked like they were about to pop out of his head when he says to me "Tamy where the fuck did you get this do you realize I have to go to the FBI with this, there is not any other photo ever that has been brought forward like this, who is this man" At first I woukd not give the name up but when the detective told me that even though he would be prosecuted there is the chance he could be pardoned as he is looked upon as an hero an Icon etc an worst case he would have enough commisory to live quite comfortably in jail. Jail is not what I wanted to have happen to him at all but I do think Coopers chances of getting an acquital are pretty damn good. Regardless of the outcome I did in fact give up the name. Once I did the detective too thought it couldn't be not him. But he could not deny what he had in his hands. I told him to do what he felt he thought was best. I left the photo with him an went home an on with my life. About six months later Dan an Jesse had come by for dinner an on this particular night they gave my kids ad well as myself some rocks. I asked Dan what was with the rocks, what kind of rocks were they and Dan replied, they are titanium rocks they got back in mexico gokd mining back in the day. It was a good eight month's or so later when I was cooking dinner an my daughter was doing her homework when the news came on "update on the DB Cooper case, tituminum has been linked to Db Cooper's tie" I'll never forget that moment either, when my daughter turned around an said to me "Mom those rocks, titanium mom! Maybe its time to start gathering those cigarette butts an bagging them" I never did do anything else about this matter, never went to the detective with the rocks, nothing. At this point I was just gonna let it be an if anything happens with the photo than ill share the rock matter. I guess i was just not really up to seeing him go to jail an i was going to let it go, for the time being. Tye next 6 years of my life, well lets just say my life went through some very tough times an Db Cooper was the least of my worries in fact far from my thoughts. Than one day im watching the news an again here comes yet another person with a long lost deceased relative who begore passing told them he was Cooper an a photo that looked nothing at all compared to the photo I left with the police Dept. So I got to thinking, here not only did I have a confession he gave to my husband I had the photo an now I had the matter of the titanium rocks in fact I had more coincidences than anyone else to date an I had him not decessed but alive an well so if someone could get their story of just a dead relative who said so an a pic that resembles nothing to what I had than why not get what I had out there there too an get others opinions. So I called the police dept an inquired about my photo an asked if i could have it bavk. They informed me that they would have to get back to me that they in fact found enough credibility in the evidence I brought them an in fact sent it on to the FBI. I got a call from my father about two an a half months later, apparently the detective did not have my new cell number so they called my father as I also left his number as a contact. Again something else ill never forget an truthfully if nothing else than the fact my father now believed me would be good enough for me if this never went any futher. My father calls me up an says to me "Tamy I got a call from a detective today and it appears he needs to get ahold of you, when I asked him what it was in regards to he told me Db Cooper so I asked the detective if you were in fact onto sonething or was this just some far fetched notion an Tamy I would like to apolige to you for thinking that you were maybe a bit off your rocker six years ago when you were running around saying you believed to have come upon the fact you know who Db cooper is because the detective assured me you have something, a photo an it could very well make the news. I could not believe it, to have all of this validated causa truthfully all of this was hard for me to believe as well. Anyway I got in touch with the detective an he informed me that they had just received my photo back from the FBI an the FBI had closed the case an would not acknowledge anything else unless physical evidence such as the parachute or money was brought in an that maybe the best thing to do is just for me to pick up my picture an go the social media route. So that's what i had fully intended to do. There's just one problem, when I got the file back my photo the real life photo was not returned! What I got back was copies od the sketch an Mckoys photo a copy of it, the same cooy that is online everywhere!!! My photo with the writing on back was not returned to me! I called the police dept an explained this to them an all they could say was they were sorry but their hands were tied, there was nothing they could do that that is what the FBI sent back. I was an to this day still am pissed but their the FBI an for some reason they wont give me back what I gave them, they try to convince me that that's what I gave them! BULLSHIT! My daughter an husband saw the real photo so I know without a doubt im not crazy in fact I have no choice to believe that there is some kind of cover up of some sort going on. So there it is my story. Oh one other thing, I saw Dan ab Jesse two years ago. When at their home they had a young cow in the front of the property. I mentioned how sweet the cow was. When I asked the cows name they said Alice an I said, as in Alice in Wonderland an Jesse sais no I named her after my niece Alice an shes a flight attendant not out in Wonderland. We just laughed an that was it. Hmmmm a flight attendant??? My hunch is this, Dan is Cooper an had the help of Jesse. When he jumped he had done so in an area where maybe he was well prepared to hold up in a gold mine somewhere an that the titanium particles on the tie was from gold mining, that the reason this case had never been solved was they got the age way off, you just never know. Than again all of this could amount to nothing at all but I wanted to at least get what I had out there an see if maybe anyone else agrees that there just coukd be something to this afterall. Thank you for reading my story, if it turns out to be nothing the one thing I know it still is is a good story. And to answer why I am talking, its simple, if the entire world was looking for a golden egg an you stumbled upon it wouldn't you too wanna share it?
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Help out here, Kari. Please.
What detective? Name? Town?
Anything we can follow-up on and corroborate?
As for not getting back your photograph from the FBI, welcome to the club. The Bureau fucks with anyone and everyone. It's their nature. The Bigger Question is WHY you gave them your only copy of a very significant piece of evidence. What the hell were you thinking?
Also, Kari, your stream-of-consciousness writing is tough to read, especially for guys like me with 71-year-old eye balls. Perhaps using Word to help clean up your text would be helpful, or install the free Grammarly processing app.
Regardless, thanks for posting here, and welcome to DB Cooper World.
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Help out here, Kari. Please.
What detective? Name? Town?
Anything we can follow-up on and corroborate?
As for not getting back your photograph from the FBI, welcome to the club. The Bureau fucks with anyone and everyone. It's their nature. The Bigger Question is WHY you gave them your only copy of a very significant piece of evidence. What the hell were you thinking?
Also, Kari, your stream-of-consciousness writing is tough to read, especially for guys like me with 71-year-old eye balls. Perhaps using Word to help clean up your text would be helpful, or install the free Grammarly processing app.
Regardless, thanks for posting here, and welcome to DB Cooper World.
Bruce. Hope you are safe out there? Lots of reports of mass fires from the heat wave? Stay safe
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Fortunately, DF, we in this part of Cooper Country are the recipients of cool, onshore maritime winds, which are blowing British Columbian smoke eastwards towards the rest of Canada. Oregonian and Californian smoke is likewise being blown elsewhere.
Thank Gawd.
At last report, BC has 300 forest fires burning, while northern Cali has started its fire season with three major fires. SoCal also has a fair number of fires burning.
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…
How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?
In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…
How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?
In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?
You're right. We don't. I had a discussion about this less than 48 hours ago with a friend on the phone. Are you Mark Zuckerberg?? :)
Tom told a story of a Boeing engineer showing him a tie that was many years old. Tom looked at the tie under a microscope and found it to be pretty pristine. This is the only "control" that I've heard of. This could be a good topic for someone to research. What do other articles of clothing look like under a microscope? Does a high school chemistry teacher's tie look anything like Coopers? I would think a lawyer's tie or a doctor's tie might not, but what about someone in a shop environment?
The tie is great evidence, but what if we've put so much weight on its value just because we have such a lack of other evidence? I agree that having "control" items might be helpful. Even if we sample items from 2021, we could see what different industry's clothing looks like. As I remember, the pollen on the tie sent some people on a wild goose chase to South Africa or somewhere like that. Could the titanium and rare earth elements be doing the same? Cooper could have hated management and used the tie as a prop. Or he could have just needed it for his costume and got hold of it somewhere along the line.
The FBI did not announce anything about the tie until around 1994 (I think). I still wonder what might have been had they shown the tie and the tie pin to the public in 1971.
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…
How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?
In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?
You're right. We don't. I had a discussion about this less than 48 hours ago with a friend on the phone. Are you Mark Zuckerberg?? :)
Tom told a story of a Boeing engineer showing him a tie that was many years old. Tom looked at the tie under a microscope and found it to be pretty pristine. This is the only "control" that I've heard of. This could be a good topic for someone to research. What do other articles of clothing look like under a microscope? Does a high school chemistry teacher's tie look anything like Coopers? I would think a lawyer's tie or a doctor's tie might not, but what about someone in a shop environment?
The tie is great evidence, but what if we've put so much weight on its value just because we have such a lack of other evidence? I agree that having "control" items might be helpful. Even if we sample items from 2021, we could see what different industry's clothing looks like. As I remember, the pollen on the tie sent some people on a wild goose chase to South Africa or somewhere like that. Could the titanium and rare earth elements be doing the same? Cooper could have hated management and used the tie as a prop. Or he could have just needed it for his costume and got hold of it somewhere along the line.
The FBI did not announce anything about the tie until around 1994 (I think). I still wonder what might have been had they shown the tie and the tie pin to the public in 1971.
I’m not Mark Zuckerberg, but I am Edward Snowden, and I’d suggest you delete all of that Japanese squid porn from your computer immediately.
Seriously though, another thing to consider is chain of custody with the tie. I’ve heard anecdotes from people involved in the case that agents were wearing the tie as a gag at Halloween parties over the decades.
But I would like to know if other industries besides metal fabrication or metallurgy or metal research and development could be responsible for the tie particles. Could a mechanic or someone working in an auto body shop accumulate those particles? Could a high school science teacher? Could a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman?
My opinion is that the titanium is being used too frequently as a gatekeeper for suspects and perhaps that gate is too narrow or even unnecessary.
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…
How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?
In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?
You're right. We don't. I had a discussion about this less than 48 hours ago with a friend on the phone. Are you Mark Zuckerberg?? :)
Tom told a story of a Boeing engineer showing him a tie that was many years old. Tom looked at the tie under a microscope and found it to be pretty pristine. This is the only "control" that I've heard of. This could be a good topic for someone to research. What do other articles of clothing look like under a microscope? Does a high school chemistry teacher's tie look anything like Coopers? I would think a lawyer's tie or a doctor's tie might not, but what about someone in a shop environment?
The tie is great evidence, but what if we've put so much weight on its value just because we have such a lack of other evidence? I agree that having "control" items might be helpful. Even if we sample items from 2021, we could see what different industry's clothing looks like. As I remember, the pollen on the tie sent some people on a wild goose chase to South Africa or somewhere like that. Could the titanium and rare earth elements be doing the same? Cooper could have hated management and used the tie as a prop. Or he could have just needed it for his costume and got hold of it somewhere along the line.
The FBI did not announce anything about the tie until around 1994 (I think). I still wonder what might have been had they shown the tie and the tie pin to the public in 1971.
I’m not Mark Zuckerberg, but I am Edward Snowden, and I’d suggest you delete all of that Japanese squid porn from your computer immediately.
Seriously though, another thing to consider is chain of custody with the tie. I’ve heard anecdotes from people involved in the case that agents were wearing the tie as a gag at Halloween parties over the decades.
But I would like to know if other industries besides metal fabrication or metallurgy or metal research and development could be responsible for the tie particles. Could a mechanic or someone working in an auto body shop accumulate those particles? Could a high school science teacher? Could a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman?
My opinion is that the titanium is being used too frequently as a gatekeeper for suspects and perhaps that gate is too narrow or even unnecessary.
I'm not familiar enough with the microscopes used by Tom to know how difficult it is to test other items, or how costly. I seem to remember talking to Tom once and he said if one of us could get clothing from the time period or a tie, he would look at it. Maybe it is as simple as putting the clothing under the scope and getting a report.
The only thing I can think of that people put away in a box and save are military uniforms. Those come off at a certain time and get hung up or boxed up. Finding clothes from 1971, especially a tie, may be tough. But I'd love to see what something looks like from a metals shop from today. I think Nicky did some looking at welding. Shutter is into all of that stuff for a career I think. He may know. I've welded and done some basic metal fabrication and remember all the shavings. Maybe a high school shop teacher might have something to test.
I think I sent an email to McCrone a while back, but did not hear back. They probably have data on samples. If they can test a Rembrant from the Gardner Museum theft, I imagine they have some control data.
I think Cooper was a blue collar worker who had some general aviation knowledge gained in the military or maybe in his job as an aviation mechanic or general laborer at the airport, but was not an aviation expert. I think he was probably a generally normal and agreeable type of guy, smarter than the average bear, but maybe just an average performer. Not an over achiever. Obviously opinions of mine, and not fact.
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…
How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?
In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?
You're right. We don't. I had a discussion about this less than 48 hours ago with a friend on the phone. Are you Mark Zuckerberg?? :)
Tom told a story of a Boeing engineer showing him a tie that was many years old. Tom looked at the tie under a microscope and found it to be pretty pristine. This is the only "control" that I've heard of. This could be a good topic for someone to research. What do other articles of clothing look like under a microscope? Does a high school chemistry teacher's tie look anything like Coopers? I would think a lawyer's tie or a doctor's tie might not, but what about someone in a shop environment?
The tie is great evidence, but what if we've put so much weight on its value just because we have such a lack of other evidence? I agree that having "control" items might be helpful. Even if we sample items from 2021, we could see what different industry's clothing looks like. As I remember, the pollen on the tie sent some people on a wild goose chase to South Africa or somewhere like that. Could the titanium and rare earth elements be doing the same? Cooper could have hated management and used the tie as a prop. Or he could have just needed it for his costume and got hold of it somewhere along the line.
The FBI did not announce anything about the tie until around 1994 (I think). I still wonder what might have been had they shown the tie and the tie pin to the public in 1971.
I’m not Mark Zuckerberg, but I am Edward Snowden, and I’d suggest you delete all of that Japanese squid porn from your computer immediately.
Seriously though, another thing to consider is chain of custody with the tie. I’ve heard anecdotes from people involved in the case that agents were wearing the tie as a gag at Halloween parties over the decades.
But I would like to know if other industries besides metal fabrication or metallurgy or metal research and development could be responsible for the tie particles. Could a mechanic or someone working in an auto body shop accumulate those particles? Could a high school science teacher? Could a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman?
My opinion is that the titanium is being used too frequently as a gatekeeper for suspects and perhaps that gate is too narrow or even unnecessary.
as I posted months ago ... the FBI processed two suspects that worked in the nuclear industry. But, until Tom did his analysis no one was aware the tie even sported these rare elements. Had the FBI been aware of Tom's analysis years ago it might have changed their search and gone somewhere .... fast?
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…
How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?
In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?
You're right. We don't. I had a discussion about this less than 48 hours ago with a friend on the phone. Are you Mark Zuckerberg?? :)
Tom told a story of a Boeing engineer showing him a tie that was many years old. Tom looked at the tie under a microscope and found it to be pretty pristine. This is the only "control" that I've heard of. This could be a good topic for someone to research. What do other articles of clothing look like under a microscope? Does a high school chemistry teacher's tie look anything like Coopers? I would think a lawyer's tie or a doctor's tie might not, but what about someone in a shop environment?
The tie is great evidence, but what if we've put so much weight on its value just because we have such a lack of other evidence? I agree that having "control" items might be helpful. Even if we sample items from 2021, we could see what different industry's clothing looks like. As I remember, the pollen on the tie sent some people on a wild goose chase to South Africa or somewhere like that. Could the titanium and rare earth elements be doing the same? Cooper could have hated management and used the tie as a prop. Or he could have just needed it for his costume and got hold of it somewhere along the line.
The FBI did not announce anything about the tie until around 1994 (I think). I still wonder what might have been had they shown the tie and the tie pin to the public in 1971.
I’m not Mark Zuckerberg, but I am Edward Snowden, and I’d suggest you delete all of that Japanese squid porn from your computer immediately.
Seriously though, another thing to consider is chain of custody with the tie. I’ve heard anecdotes from people involved in the case that agents were wearing the tie as a gag at Halloween parties over the decades.
But I would like to know if other industries besides metal fabrication or metallurgy or metal research and development could be responsible for the tie particles. Could a mechanic or someone working in an auto body shop accumulate those particles? Could a high school science teacher? Could a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman?
My opinion is that the titanium is being used too frequently as a gatekeeper for suspects and perhaps that gate is too narrow or even unnecessary.
I'm not familiar enough with the microscopes used by Tom to know how difficult it is to test other items, or how costly. I seem to remember talking to Tom once and he said if one of us could get clothing from the time period or a tie, he would look at it. Maybe it is as simple as putting the clothing under the scope and getting a report.
The only thing I can think of that people put away in a box and save are military uniforms. Those come off at a certain time and get hung up or boxed up. Finding clothes from 1971, especially a tie, may be tough. But I'd love to see what something looks like from a metals shop from today. I think Nicky did some looking at welding. Shutter is into all of that stuff for a career I think. He may know. I've welded and done some basic metal fabrication and remember all the shavings. Maybe a high school shop teacher might have something to test.
I think I sent an email to McCrone a while back, but did not hear back. They probably have data on samples. If they can test a Rembrant from the Gardner Museum theft, I imagine they have some control data.
I think Cooper was a blue collar worker who had some general aviation knowledge gained in the military or maybe in his job as an aviation mechanic or general laborer at the airport, but was not an aviation expert. I think he was probably a generally normal and agreeable type of guy, smarter than the average bear, but maybe just an average performer. Not an over achiever. Obviously opinions of mine, and not fact.
Go to Tom's site and review how Tom found the particles with his equipment. Electron spectroscopy was central to this work. That is not something a common light microscope can do. ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy-dispersive_X-ray_spectroscopy
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I have begun going through the list of particles on the tie and finding uses and applications for each to see if I can identify any connections beyond the ones we already have.
I am not done, but so far there seems to be some interesting overlaps that to my knowledge have been previously unidentified. Once, I double check my work, I will share it and allow everyone to review it.
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Fortunately, DF, we in this part of Cooper Country are the recipients of cool, onshore maritime winds, which are blowing British Columbian smoke eastwards towards the rest of Canada. Oregonian and Californian smoke is likewise being blown elsewhere.
Thank Gawd.
At last report, BC has 300 forest fires burning, while northern Cali has started its fire season with three major fires. SoCal also has a fair number of fires burning.
I just learned a bit more about Mt Ranier via David Paulides YouTube report. I guess 2200 years since last eruption? I hope it stays that way. So Mt Ranier is in WA and you are actually in Oregon correct? Sounds like quite a place. 5 rivers and 14,000 feet. I have never been to the area, Seattle or Portland included. SF would be the closest I have been. So I guess there have been a good share of people that have gone missing in Mt Ranier region.
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Yo, DB, I live 30 miles due west of Mount Rainier. Hence, I live in WA. In fact, I'm 120 miles north of the Columbia River, which is the borderline between WA and OR.
Further, I invite you to check out my writings on Cooper at the Mountain News-WA. Note: this site is NOT The Mountain News-OR!
Smile.
Lastly, "Cooper Country," (CC) which I reference here often is the region central to Norjak - Sea-Tac airport, Thun Field, Castle Rock and Silver Lake (placard finding site), Ariel, Amboy, Heisson, Battleground, Woodland, T-Bar, and Vancouver - and are all in Washington State. Only PDX is in Oregon.
Lastly, lastly, when you visit, such as to attend CC21, please know that "Oregon" is pronounced as Or-e-gun locally, whereas everywhere else, like New York, it is pronounced "Or-e-gone." We in CC tend to snicker when we hear the out-of-towners mis-pronounce the state. I know it's rude, but it's fun....
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…
How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?
In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?
A control? Interesting thought. If only someone had asked that and NOT been ridiculed for it by the resident troll...
Tom Kaye showed *the tie* *might* have been exposed to its odd collection of particles in an environment *like* Tek. (I think Kaye focused on Tek because it was in the PacNW, however there's an entire world filled with chemical/CRT factories).
Does anybody know if there was a "control tie" tested? Like getting an old tie from a garage sale and testing it alongside the Cooper tie for particles of...anything? Or perhaps cloth of any kind that was stored in the same environment to check for similarities?
No. No real need to. Unless you want to compare it with a tie from ?? Chernobyl?
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…
How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?
In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?
A control? Interesting thought. If only someone had asked that and NOT been ridiculed for it by the resident troll...
Tom Kaye showed *the tie* *might* have been exposed to its odd collection of particles in an environment *like* Tek. (I think Kaye focused on Tek because it was in the PacNW, however there's an entire world filled with chemical/CRT factories).
Does anybody know if there was a "control tie" tested? Like getting an old tie from a garage sale and testing it alongside the Cooper tie for particles of...anything? Or perhaps cloth of any kind that was stored in the same environment to check for similarities?
No. No real need to. Unless you want to compare it with a tie from ?? Chernobyl?
Unsurelock: I've found that many of us have similar ideas, and although there is some disagreement on here, most of us seem to have the same end goal in mind, which is to find DB Cooper. I agree with your old comment on finding a tie at a yard sale. I definitely don't want to claim that I'm the first or even the second person to consider testing an old tie or clothing. Anyhow, that would be a good way to get some old clothes to test.
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Here’s a question to ponder, and one that perhaps Tom Kaye would address…
How do we know that the amount and type of rare earth metals (pure titanium, cerium, strontium, etc) are unusual for that surface? Is it possible that everyone collects those types of metals in that quantity just naturally? Was there ever a control?
In other words, how do we know that Cooper’s tie is uncommon and that other men weren’t walking around with the same levels on their ties?
A control? Interesting thought. If only someone had asked that and NOT been ridiculed for it by the resident troll...
Tom Kaye showed *the tie* *might* have been exposed to its odd collection of particles in an environment *like* Tek. (I think Kaye focused on Tek because it was in the PacNW, however there's an entire world filled with chemical/CRT factories).
Does anybody know if there was a "control tie" tested? Like getting an old tie from a garage sale and testing it alongside the Cooper tie for particles of...anything? Or perhaps cloth of any kind that was stored in the same environment to check for similarities?
No. No real need to. Unless you want to compare it with a tie from ?? Chernobyl?
Unsurelock: I've found that many of us have similar ideas, and although there is some disagreement on here, most of us seem to have the same end goal in mind, which is to find DB Cooper. I agree with your old comment on finding a tie at a yard sale. I definitely don't want to claim that I'm the first or even the second person to consider testing an old tie or clothing. Anyhow, that would be a good way to get some old clothes to test.
Hey, man. Nothing of the sort. Just commenting on how some people choose to ridicule ideas they haven't caught up to yet.
Fully aware others have looked into this first.
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Yo, DB, I live 30 miles due west of Mount Rainier. Hence, I live in WA. In fact, I'm 120 miles north of the Columbia River, which is the borderline between WA and OR.
Further, I invite you to check out my writings on Cooper at the Mountain News-WA. Note: this site is NOT The Mountain News-OR!
Smile.
Lastly, "Cooper Country," (CC) which I reference here often is the region central to Norjak - Sea-Tac airport, Thun Field, Castle Rock and Silver Lake (placard finding site), Ariel, Amboy, Heisson, Battleground, Woodland, T-Bar, and Vancouver - and are all in Washington State. Only PDX is in Oregon.
Lastly, lastly, when you visit, such as to attend CC21, please know that "Oregon" is pronounced as Or-e-gun locally, whereas everywhere else, like New York, it is pronounced "Or-e-gone." We in CC tend to snicker when we hear the out-of-towners mis-pronounce the state. I know it's rude, but it's fun....
I just watched the episode on this case on Unsolved Mysteries with the late Robert Stack. Did you see that one? Anyway, Tina was not on it. But Florence Shaffner was. And she was very very cooperative on that show. Obviously things changed since that? She was on and not Tina? That to me is strange too.
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What? You think Tina is strange? Not talking to anyone about DBC for 30 years is strange. The Unsolved Mysteries show was filmed during her hiatus from talking. Her first appearance in front of a camera sine 1972 was 2016 - History Channel, Case Closed.
Now, it's Flo who ain't talking. She hasn't spoken to a journalist since 2008 or 2009. Last guy was GG.
As for Alice, she ain't talking to anyone, either, except for Galen Cook, and that was years ago - circa 2015.
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What? You think Tina is strange? Not talking to anyone about DBC for 30 years is strange. The Unsolved Mysteries show was filmed during her hiatus from talking. Her first appearance in front of a camera sine 1972 was 2016 - History Channel, Case Closed.
Now, it's Flo who ain't talking. She hasn't spoken to a journalist since 2008 or 2009. Last guy was GG.
As for Alice, she ain't talking to anyone, either, except for Galen Cook, and that was years ago - circa 2015.
No, no, no I do not think your darling Tina is strange Bruce. I just find it strange that she did not appear on the show given she has been the more cooperative of the three throughout the years. All be it Alice does not seem to be as important? But what is strange is how different the sketch's are that each agrees with. The one Flo says it looks like DB is far off the "Bing Crosby" sketch and the one with the sunglass's that we see so often. I think I would trust Muckler far more, as Flo seems to have had a mental breakdown of sorts due to this event? At least I have heard that mentioned. She sure seemed to have it together on that show however. Does anyone know where Flo is now? I know she changed her name? Likely married? Somewhere in S Carolina I heard? It would be nice if you guys could get her at the conference but Muckler would be far better IMO>
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I would love to see Tina at CC21. Or any of the crew.
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I would love to see Tina at CC21. Or any of the crew.
Or on the MOON !
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New video on YouTube by a Brit military guy. He believes DB Cooper made it. Did not perish in the jump. He states the obvious, the body and the rest of the money and the bomb would have been found. To me the bigger question is, IS HE STILL ALIVE? I really hope he is.
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New video on YouTube by a Brit military guy. He believes DB Cooper made it. Did not perish in the jump. He states the obvious, the body and the rest of the money and the bomb would have been found. To me the bigger question is, IS HE STILL ALIVE? I really hope he is.
Link?
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New video on YouTube by a Brit military guy. He believes DB Cooper made it. Did not perish in the jump. He states the obvious, the body and the rest of the money and the bomb would have been found. To me the bigger question is, IS HE STILL ALIVE? I really hope he is.
Link?
Likewise any photos of these metal fixtures supposedly could be from a brief case that Josh Gates magically found under Ulis direction at Tina Bar - in Exp Unknown last night?
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I distinctly remember something about an eyewitness claiming that Cooper had a distinguishing scar or mark on his arm or hand. I cannot find anything in my notes about it.
Can anyone here verify?
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I distinctly remember something about an eyewitness claiming that Cooper had a distinguishing scar or mark on his arm or hand. I cannot find anything in my notes about it.
Can anyone here verify?
The only place I've seen it is in Max Gunther's book. No idea where he got it from. Kind of like Tosaw in a way. These guys who wrote the early books did not have the 302's, so a lot of it was good old fashioned journalism. If it is somewhere else, I'd be curious as well to see it. If it is true, then it likely came from Tina. If so, that would be a great question to ask her. Then again now that I think about it, Flo could have seen it too. If it is true, then it could be a FBI "holdback." Something they know but don't tell the public. Like the tie. I do wonder sometimes if the FBI still has holdbacks on this case.
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The "scar" thingie was touted by Jo Weber. A scar on Duane's left hand, by the thumb, I believe. I know of no corroboration.
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The "scar" thingie was touted by Jo Weber. A scar on Duane's left hand, by the thumb, I believe. I know of no corroboration.
Upon further research, it seems that the first mention of an identifying scar in relation to DB Cooper was in a 1989 news article about List and was again mentioned 20 years later in articles about William J. Smith.
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I don't think your note about scars and earliest mention is fully accurate. Maybe in terms of public discourse.
There are a number of suspects mentioned in the fbi files with scars noted. even tattoos. The suspects you mention weren't the only, nor earliest.
But every description of cooper says no scars or marks.
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I don't think your note about scars and earliest mention is fully accurate. Maybe in terms of public discourse.
There are a number of suspects mentioned in the fbi files with scars noted. even tattoos. The suspects you mention weren't the only, nor earliest.
But every description of cooper says no scars or marks.
Yes, I was only referring to news articles. I haven’t looked into the 302s. However, you’re right, every description says no visible scars.
That said, in reading the articles, I get the sense that he did have some distinguishing scar that the FBI knows about but is keeping close to the vest as a way to eliminate suspects. No proof of this, of course. Just a sense from the wording in the articles.
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there were lots of suspects in the 302s.
never a mention that someone was included or excluded based on scars, I think.
I don't think scars were any kind of "holdback"
no evidence of that.
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there were lots of suspects in the 302s.
never a mention that someone was included or excluded based on scars, I think.
I don't think scars were any kind of "holdback"
no evidence of that.
Perhaps not, but both List and Smith used scars “which Mucklow saw” as evidence that they were Cooper. Again, these are newspapers articles and not FBI documents, but a curious detail nonetheless.
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people tell myths about Cooper all the time.
Even Agent Carr said things that were provably (now) wrong.
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Which law enforcement department originally investigate the Heisson break-in the night of the hijacking? Clark County Sheriffs?
ETA: It was the Clark County Sheriff's Office. I just spoke with someone there.
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Which law enforcement department originally investigate the Heisson break-in the night of the hijacking? Clark County Sheriffs?
ETA: It was the Clark County Sheriff's Office. I just spoke with someone there.
They have the file on their investigation - just full out the form to get a copy.
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Which law enforcement department originally investigate the Heisson break-in the night of the hijacking? Clark County Sheriffs?
ETA: It was the Clark County Sheriff's Office. I just spoke with someone there.
They have the file on their investigation - just full out the form to get a copy.
You've seen the sherrif's report on the matter?
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Which law enforcement department originally investigate the Heisson break-in the night of the hijacking? Clark County Sheriffs?
ETA: It was the Clark County Sheriff's Office. I just spoke with someone there.
They have the file on their investigation - just full out the form to get a copy.
You've seen the sherrif's report on the matter?
No but Ive talked to the dept about it - years ago. Better you get the file so you can see it for yourself. Ive never seen the file.
Actually I thought someone else would then post about it, but evidently not, so far.
*That store has been broken into so many times .... transients passing through because of the rail line. Any connection with the Cooper hijacking never came up - nobody ever suggested it ...
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I filed a public records request for it today. Frankly, I'm doubtful that I'll receive anything. The woman I spoke with on the phone said that unless it was deemed "historical" in nature that the record had likely been destroyed.
While the event might be historical in retrospect, I'm not sure it was deemed that in the past. My guess is that any police or incident reports from 50 years ago were thrown in the shredder long ago.
If, by a miracle, I get my hands on it, I'll be sure to share it.
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I filed a public records request for it today. Frankly, I'm doubtful that I'll receive anything. The woman I spoke with on the phone said that unless it was deemed "historical" in nature that the record had likely been destroyed.
While the event might be historical in retrospect, I'm not sure it was deemed that in the past. My guess is that any police or incident reports from 50 years ago were thrown in the shredder long ago.
If, by a miracle, I get my hands on it, I'll be sure to share it.
My clear impression is, nobody was looking for Cooper near Heisson. The FBI was claiming Cooper died during his jump, and the event happened somewhere around Lake Merwin. That was the official position being given to everyone. On the other hand there were endless 'incident' reports in and around Heisson involving transients, kids, hobos ... had anyone seriously suggested Cooper was on his way traveling south back to Vancouver/Portland a net for him might have been laid. That did not happen.
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Well, today I received a denial letter via email for the police report detailing the Heisson store burglary. Reason given is that they could not locate said file. I will try again using a broader search base.
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Well, today I received a denial letter via email for the police report detailing the Heisson store burglary. Reason given is that they could not locate said file. I will try again using a broader search base.
Others are looking for it too. Its 50 years after the fact!
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Well, today I received a denial letter via email for the police report detailing the Heisson store burglary. Reason given is that they could not locate said file. I will try again using a broader search base.
Others are looking for it too. Its 50 years after the fact!
so odd there's no followup in the released FBI files.
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I’m not optimistic.
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I’m not optimistic.
Here's the Heisson store and the rail line ... which these guys used... connecting rail line bridge at Portland in the background. This was but one such encampment back in the day and this may have been named Sullivan's Gulch ?
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Hager joked around that the store left a back window unlocked on purpose. Something about being cheaper just to let them in than having to replace the front door all the time. ( Something along that line) Evidently that place got broken into fairly often.
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Hag thought the break-in sounded out of character for Cooper? Also thought it was too far south?
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Would love to see pics of the encampment located across the river from Tena Bar. ( pics from back in the day) Hager used to hang out there.
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Bruce Smith:
Have you ever experienced the frustration of searching and not being able to find something, ultimately to find it right there under your nose, in plain sight?
For some people, who cooper is/was, is a mystery. Equally for some, why the case was “administratively closed” is a mystery. You posted an article on August 18, 2011 titled: ‘DB Cooper Report: An Interview with Ayn Dietrich, Seattle FBI spokesperson’. You may be well positioned to ‘solve’ both mysteries if you put a little creative thought into it.
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Bruce Smith:
Have you ever experienced the frustration of searching and not being able to find something, ultimately to find it right there under your nose, in plain sight?
For some people, who cooper is/was, is a mystery. Equally for some, why the case was “administratively closed” is a mystery. You posted an article on August 18, 2011 titled: ‘DB Cooper Report: An Interview with Ayn Dietrich, Seattle FBI spokesperson’. You may be well positioned to ‘solve’ both mysteries if you put a little creative thought into it.
why post gobbleygook?
If you want to say something, just say it.
Why throw a bunch of words at the wall, and assume people would bother guessing at what you're trying to say?
I mean, it's like me going ";alsdfja-s0s9df8 !!!"
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Bruce Smith:
Have you ever experienced the frustration of searching and not being able to find something, ultimately to find it right there under your nose, in plain sight?
For some people, who cooper is/was, is a mystery. Equally for some, why the case was “administratively closed” is a mystery. You posted an article on August 18, 2011 titled: ‘DB Cooper Report: An Interview with Ayn Dietrich, Seattle FBI spokesperson’. You may be well positioned to ‘solve’ both mysteries if you put a little creative thought into it.
How little?
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Bruce Smith:
Have you ever experienced the frustration of searching and not being able to find something, ultimately to find it right there under your nose, in plain sight?
For some people, who cooper is/was, is a mystery. Equally for some, why the case was “administratively closed” is a mystery. You posted an article on August 18, 2011 titled: ‘DB Cooper Report: An Interview with Ayn Dietrich, Seattle FBI spokesperson’. You may be well positioned to ‘solve’ both mysteries if you put a little creative thought into it.
How little?
Come on now Bruce, you can do much better than that. Did you read what you wrote or have you become lazy like other contemporary journalists and merely regurgitate the narrative that is spoon-fed to you and then move on? Not much faith is held in the vast majority of your fellow forum members to see the importance of your article, they are too caught-up on building irrelevant bridges to nowhere, not really trying to answer the question of his true identity. There are some though who have a more pragmatic approach to the problem and may see the value of your words. Perhaps if you take some time away from the clutter that surrounds you, take a walk in the woods, have a bubble bath with your favorite rubber ducky, whatever you do to unwind – but de-clutter. Look at things with a fresh perspective, you are the closest you have ever been to unravelling the enigma. If it is too much thinking for you, it may be a good time to consider a new hobby to pass the time away.
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...where is that rubber ducky..... it was right here a minute ago...
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...where is that rubber ducky..... it was right here a minute ago...
It is admirable that you can see humor in what must be a somewhat painful experience for you, a stark reminder of the days when you had open communication with them. Recent comments you have made about their lack of response to your communication attempts highlights this. One thing that was a curiosity from the outset of my research, was them using you as a talking head for their investigation. The concept of the Useful Idiot (UI) to some degree explained this apparent anomaly in the way they do things. For some reason you became redundant and were no longer useful to their objectives. You went from UI to I, and they won’t respond when you call.
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Bruce Smith:
Have you ever experienced the frustration of searching and not being able to find something, ultimately to find it right there under your nose, in plain sight?
For some people, who cooper is/was, is a mystery. Equally for some, why the case was “administratively closed” is a mystery. You posted an article on August 18, 2011 titled: ‘DB Cooper Report: An Interview with Ayn Dietrich, Seattle FBI spokesperson’. You may be well positioned to ‘solve’ both mysteries if you put a little creative thought into it.
Ya gotta help me out here 'Spector. The piece you reference is over ten years old, and you only give a veiled, snarky quip about it. Give me a hint.
Or how about this: Why don't you tell me what took you ten years to figure these two mysterious mysteries. Digging more deeply, what are the special qualities that you have that I lack? Just askin'...
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I remember at the weekly conspiracy Zoom call (it's damn hard to keep a conspiracy running well during Covid shutdown)...someone brought up "Prospector" and what we were going to do to deal with him. He was just too damn good.
New guy suggested another false flag operation should work. It looks like Prospector took the bait.
Covid shutdowns are nothing when you have an all-powerful cabal running things!
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Prospector, the take aways from the article you referenced were basically:
- Ayn Dietrich, the PIO for the FBI, made a comment in an interview that the LDC lead was the most promising lead to date...
- Ayn, took Bruce's call, and actually spoke to him...apparently, this was a bit unusual? Are you saying she was intentionally
using Bruce for something ?
- Ayn, then while speaking to Bruce, walked the "most promising lead" comment back a little
- In the interview, Bruce hit on few important questions:
1) Fingerprints: the FBI did not have any from LDC to compare to the latent fingerprints in evidence
2) DNA: "no significant match" was made between LDC and the DNA the FBI has in case evidence
3) Eyewitness: Kind of a non answer here WRT Tina or any of the flight attendants being shown a pic of LDC
So are you saying that LDC is DB Cooper ? Is he your suspect ? That Ayn was being coy with Bruce ?
Also, a while back, you wrote post where you seemed to indicate that you thought that Coop was a poster on this and
perhaps other Cooper forums, do you still feel that way ? Thanks !
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Prospector, the take aways from the article you referenced were basically:
- Ayn Dietrich, the PIO for the FBI, made a comment in an interview that the LDC lead was the most promising lead to date...
- Ayn, took Bruce's call, and actually spoke to him...apparently, this was a bit unusual? Are you saying she was intentionally
using Bruce for something ?
- Ayn, then while speaking to Bruce, walked the "most promising lead" comment back a little
- In the interview, Bruce hit on few important questions:
1) Fingerprints: the FBI did not have any from LDC to compare to the latent fingerprints in evidence
2) DNA: "no significant match" was made between LDC and the DNA the FBI has in case evidence
3) Eyewitness: Kind of a non answer here WRT Tina or any of the flight attendants being shown a pic of LDC
So are you saying that LDC is DB Cooper ? Is he your suspect ? That Ayn was being coy with Bruce ?
Also, a while back, you wrote post where you seemed to indicate that you thought that Coop was a poster on this and
perhaps other Cooper forums, do you still feel that way ? Thanks !
You kind of hit the mark with your pick-up on the FBI walk-back of the mention in passing of the ‘most promising lead’. The unexpected flurry of media requests from multiple regions overwhelmed them and consumed significant internal resources to ‘put out the fire’ so to speak. At that time, it was an agency that was at an investigative dead-end, and they were trying new and unusual methods of bringing in new info to help solve the file. To this end, they were learning as they went. I would surmise that they would have learned that the global interest in the possibility the case was about to be solved was still intense. So it is speculated that if at some point in the future that an actual break had been made in the case, they would take the opposite strategy and claim they had nothing and go silent so the work could be conducted without distraction from multiple media or public requests. Kind of what they did in 2016 – we have nothing, we give up, don’t bother us with any more tips or information. In the timeframe that they went silent, the advent of genetic genealogy and/or incoming tips may have produced workable evidence. “Administratively closing” the case may be a smokescreen.
I have doubts LD is their guy. If he is found in Canada, it is unlikely Canada would extradite as Air Piracy was not a crime in Canada in 1971. Not sure about Extortion. A slim possibility exists they know who he is but can’t get him. Kind of like those two hijackers they identified in Quebec they can’t touch.
Do I believe there is a possibility he or someone in the know has posted in the past here or elsewhere – yes.
It is refreshing to see someone digging into things a bit. Good eye.
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“Likely” does not mean “definite”.
Each of the difficult conditions and variables decreases Cooper’s chances of survival by a degree. So even if he chance of survival was 90% out of 100. There is still that pesky 10% that people don’t seem to want to entertain. 377 and Andrade along with many others are convinced he survived. I’ve heard from experienced skydivers who are say that was a difficult jump for anyone and especially for someone with little experience.
Anyways, this is the wrong thread for that discussion.
I'm not sure I agree with your model of how "difficulty" couples to survival probability.
There's a number of risk sports, where people never die doing the most difficult thing...they die doing some humdrum thing.
Why? Because they are totally focused during the hard thing, and the mind/body isn't dialed in during the easy thing.
That and many repetitions of "easier" things, can be a total risk equal to one iteration of a riskier thing.
So: a single jump over Portland out of a 727? Maybe not so risky.
Saying you have a model that's accurate for getting the jump successful, when you don't even know Cooper's background or skills...well, you're just guessing right?
You have no idea how much experience Cooper had. Once you give that as a "rationale" for your model..well I think you've invalidated your model.
re: wrong thread...I guess on podcasts stuff like this isn't discussed :)
Pulled this over from the podcast thread...
To be clear, I am not advocating for Cooper dying in the jump. I don't know if he lived or died. I will say that some seem to minimize the risks of the jump to fit their own narrative. Also, I'm not using the word "narrative" pejoratively here. I literally mean that for some, having Cooper lawn dart into the ground is not a very good ending to the story. It's not romantic, and people like to romanticize Cooper and his exploit. I get it.
We don't know Cooper's level of expertise when it comes to jumping from airplanes. We don't know if he had zero jumps, 12 jumps, 100 jumps, or 10,000 jumps. Anyone who says they know for sure is full of it. He could have been a rank amateur or a WWII bomber pilot. We simply don't know.
Also, I think that minimizing the risks inherent in his jump is counterproductive. This was a difficult jump. That doesn't mean it was suicidal, but the factors involved made it dangerous to say the least. They've been discussed ad nauseum over the years:
night jump - if he experienced a complicated malfunction would he have the visibility to manage it? jumping blind; no spot jump
unknown terrain - he had no altimeter
improper equipment - no boots, no helmet, no gloves, no chem light
suboptimal weather - would have experienced the elements immediately wearing just a business suit jumping from a jetliner at 200 mph
using unfamiliar rigs - was it the modified rig Cossey claimed moved the ripcord location?
25 lbs of money haphazardly tied to him - could this have made him asymmetrical in the air?
Again, I'm not pointing to these facts and saying, "There's no way he could have survived." I'm a huge fan of Andrade's research into this. I think it's certainly possible - perhaps likely - that he survived. My point is to say that his survival is far from a slamdunk that we all need to take for granted. I've talked to skydivers and while some of the gung ho guys believe he lived with no problem, others maintain that very few skydivers would attempt that identical jump unless they were experienced in extreme jumps or had a death wish.
So, full circle, I don't know if he lived or died in the jump, but let's not gloss over the difficulty of and risks involved in Cooper's leap.
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I guess I just don't understand.
Why would it be risky jumping with Hayden's parachute out the back of a 727 over Portland again?
Are you saying parachutes sometimes don't open properly and that's the risk?
Or is the risk landing in the Columbia or ??
are you including some assessment of knowledge/skill in the risk assessment?
I think first you assess risk assuming someone knows what they're doing. That's base risk.
Then there's additional risk if the person doesn't know what they're doing.
What exactly is the base risk you're trying to describe?
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I suspect people are mixing up "fear" and "risk"
Here's the way to analyze risk:
Assuming 1000 people do the exact same jump (over Portland) with same gear out the back of the same 727, at night, same weather
How many die?
Fear doesn't need to be analyzed unless it increases risk. Ideally fear doesn't change the risk equation.
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I guess I just don't understand.
Why would it be risky jumping with Hayden's parachute out the back of a 727 over Portland again?
Are you saying parachutes sometimes don't open properly and that's the risk?
Or is the risk landing in the Columbia or ??
are you including some assessment of knowledge/skill in the risk assessment?
I think first you assess risk assuming someone knows what they're doing. That's base risk.
Then there's additional risk if the person doesn't know what they're doing.
What exactly is the base risk you're trying to describe?
All I'm saying is that there were variables at play that increased the difficulty of the jump. I don't think that's a particularly controversial position.
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I guess I just don't understand.
Why would it be risky jumping with Hayden's parachute out the back of a 727 over Portland again?
Are you saying parachutes sometimes don't open properly and that's the risk?
Or is the risk landing in the Columbia or ??
are you including some assessment of knowledge/skill in the risk assessment?
I think first you assess risk assuming someone knows what they're doing. That's base risk.
Then there's additional risk if the person doesn't know what they're doing.
What exactly is the base risk you're trying to describe?
All I'm saying is that there were variables at play that increased the difficulty of the jump. I don't think that's a particularly controversial position.
What variables?
Night
Turbulence on exit affecting ability to stabilize and pull.
Avoiding river and power lines on landing (and possible detection)
Twisting ankle on landing?
Don't think the money bag affected ability to deploy canopy.
Don't think rain affected ability to deploy canopy.
Clothing didn't matter.
If Night jumps were inherently risky, the death rate for night jumps in the '70s would have been high ?
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I guess I just don't understand.
Why would it be risky jumping with Hayden's parachute out the back of a 727 over Portland again?
Are you saying parachutes sometimes don't open properly and that's the risk?
Or is the risk landing in the Columbia or ??
are you including some assessment of knowledge/skill in the risk assessment?
I think first you assess risk assuming someone knows what they're doing. That's base risk.
Then there's additional risk if the person doesn't know what they're doing.
What exactly is the base risk you're trying to describe?
All I'm saying is that there were variables at play that increased the difficulty of the jump. I don't think that's a particularly controversial position.
What variables?
Night
Turbulence on exit affecting ability to stabilize and pull.
Avoiding river and power lines on landing (and possible detection)
Twisting ankle on landing?
Don't think the money bag affected ability to deploy canopy.
Don't think rain affected ability to deploy canopy.
Clothing didn't matter.
If Night jumps were inherently risky, the death rate for night jumps in the '70s would have been high ?
So, in your opinion, Cooper’s jump wasn’t any more or less dangerous than a properly equipped day time jump from a Cessna?
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I guess I just don't understand.
Why would it be risky jumping with Hayden's parachute out the back of a 727 over Portland again?
Are you saying parachutes sometimes don't open properly and that's the risk?
Or is the risk landing in the Columbia or ??
are you including some assessment of knowledge/skill in the risk assessment?
I think first you assess risk assuming someone knows what they're doing. That's base risk.
Then there's additional risk if the person doesn't know what they're doing.
What exactly is the base risk you're trying to describe?
All I'm saying is that there were variables at play that increased the difficulty of the jump. I don't think that's a particularly controversial position.
What variables?
Night
Turbulence on exit affecting ability to stabilize and pull.
Avoiding river and power lines on landing (and possible detection)
Twisting ankle on landing?
Don't think the money bag affected ability to deploy canopy.
Don't think rain affected ability to deploy canopy.
Clothing didn't matter.
If Night jumps were inherently risky, the death rate for night jumps in the '70s would have been high ?
So, in your opinion, Cooper’s jump wasn’t any more or less dangerous than a properly equipped day time jump from a Cessna?
Hayden owned the chutes for bailing out of acrobatic airplanes in distress.
Compared to successfully exiting an acrobatic airplane in distress and deploying, I'd say Cooper's use of the chutes was simpler/more straightforward than anything Hayden was planning on using them for in the daytime.
so, I guess "yes".
EDIT: note that the fbi test drops and jump (by person) showed that jumping from the airstair created no extra difficulty...i.e. Cooper didn't have to worry about being decapitated or something by the airstair.
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I guess I just don't understand.
Why would it be risky jumping with Hayden's parachute out the back of a 727 over Portland again?
Are you saying parachutes sometimes don't open properly and that's the risk?
Or is the risk landing in the Columbia or ??
are you including some assessment of knowledge/skill in the risk assessment?
I think first you assess risk assuming someone knows what they're doing. That's base risk.
Then there's additional risk if the person doesn't know what they're doing.
What exactly is the base risk you're trying to describe?
All I'm saying is that there were variables at play that increased the difficulty of the jump. I don't think that's a particularly controversial position.
What variables?
Night
Turbulence on exit affecting ability to stabilize and pull.
Avoiding river and power lines on landing (and possible detection)
Twisting ankle on landing?
Don't think the money bag affected ability to deploy canopy.
Don't think rain affected ability to deploy canopy.
Clothing didn't matter.
If Night jumps were inherently risky, the death rate for night jumps in the '70s would have been high ?
So, in your opinion, Cooper’s jump wasn’t any more or less dangerous than a properly equipped day time jump from a Cessna?
Chaucer: If I had to pick a daytime jump out of a Cessna or a nighttime jump out of a set up like going out the back of a 727, I'd have to think about it. I found jumping out of a Cessna to be more difficult than going out the back or the side of a different plane. It's been a while since I've done it, but I remember one of the planes I jumped out of was an Otter. For a Cessna jump I was packed in like a sardine, sitting with my knees in my face, and had to climb out on the strut. But, you're right, a daytime jump equipped correctly with a steerable chute would have been easier than his nighttime jump from a 727 with the chute he had. My feeling is that if it was me, I would let out some of the reserve to help me off the stairs, or at a minimum walked down holding my hand on the ripcord. If he could get the ripcord pulled, then I feel that he would have made it safely to the ground. He might have been hurt, but death is a big step from being hurt.
This topic has been discussed a lot. Like the Western flight path vs the FBI flight path, I don't think people will change their minds. I could argue both sides of him living/dying, but to me without a body, more money, and a missing person who matches Cooper, I just don't see it. Does that mean he lived? No. But if you had to bet your life or your house, would you bet on him dying?
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I guess I just don't understand.
Why would it be risky jumping with Hayden's parachute out the back of a 727 over Portland again?
Are you saying parachutes sometimes don't open properly and that's the risk?
Or is the risk landing in the Columbia or ??
are you including some assessment of knowledge/skill in the risk assessment?
I think first you assess risk assuming someone knows what they're doing. That's base risk.
Then there's additional risk if the person doesn't know what they're doing.
What exactly is the base risk you're trying to describe?
All I'm saying is that there were variables at play that increased the difficulty of the jump. I don't think that's a particularly controversial position.
What variables?
Night
Turbulence on exit affecting ability to stabilize and pull.
Avoiding river and power lines on landing (and possible detection)
Twisting ankle on landing?
Don't think the money bag affected ability to deploy canopy.
Don't think rain affected ability to deploy canopy.
Clothing didn't matter.
If Night jumps were inherently risky, the death rate for night jumps in the '70s would have been high ?
So, in your opinion, Cooper’s jump wasn’t any more or less dangerous than a properly equipped day time jump from a Cessna?
Hayden owned the chutes for bailing out of acrobatic airplanes in distress.
Compared to successfully exiting an acrobatic airplane in distress and deploying, I'd say Cooper's use of the chutes was simpler/more straightforward than anything Hayden was planning on using them for in the daytime.
so, I guess "yes".
EDIT: note that the fbi test drops and jump (by person) showed that jumping from the airstair created no extra difficulty...i.e. Cooper didn't have to worry about being decapitated or something by the airstair.
Well, respectfully disagree, I suppose. I believe the conditions of the Cooper jumped increased the degree of difficulty and thus the risk of a catastrophic outcome. Again, not saying it made that a certainty.
I would like to see Darren or EU put together a panel of experts who could debate this. Would be very interesting.
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Two choices.
Russian roulette. One bullet. 5 empty chambers.
Pick the gun up, point it at your forehead, pull the trigger.
That's actually pretty good odds. (of living)
Other option: put on the parachute, walk down the aft stairs and jump at night over Portland
I'd take the second option, even if I had never pulled a ripcord before.
Does that mean it's less risky? It seems less risky to me.
But again: if 500 people took the first choice and 500 took the second choice, which choice would have the taller stack of dead bodies afterwards?
Your choice comparison of jumping out of a Cessna in daytime in 1971, is actually very low risk.
Even in 1961, the overall fatality rate for skydiving was only about 1 in 9000 skydives.
So you're not even presenting something with reasonable amount of risk.
https://uspa.org/p/Article/another-record-lowthe-2020-fatality-summary
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and if you want to say that the presence of a reserve skews the death rate...you can look at base jumping (no reserve)
lots of different papers, this paper quoted a 0.04% fatality rate per BASE jump (4 deaths in 10,000 jumps)
Obviously there are lots of variables, so generalizing to an average makes less sense for BASE jump, I think (or wingsuit)
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/347496379_Epidemiology_of_skydiving-related_deaths_and_injuries_A_10-years_prospective_study_of_62_million_jumps_between_2010_and_2019_in_France
BASE jumpers rely on a single canopy with no reserve parachute. Estimates of injury rate are 0.2-0.4% per jump and fatality rates of 0.04% per jump or 1.7% per participant per year, suggesting that this is one of the most dangerous sporting activities.
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Again, I'm not saying Cooper definitely died. I'm just saying he didn't definitely live.
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and if you want to say that the presence of a reserve skews the death rate...you can look at base jumping (no reserve)... BASE jumpers rely on a single canopy with no reserve parachute.
Two things...
1) This is often overlooked, but the pilot's emergency bailout rig that Cooper used WAS a reserve. It's design parameters, that it doesn't have the 'wear and tear' of regular usage, and that it is packed by a rigger, all adds up to a significantly lower malfunction rate than a sport main.
2) The vast majority of fatalities in base jumping are not caused by parachute malfunctions.
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2) The vast majority of fatalities in base jumping are not caused by parachute malfunctions.
I'm curious. What causes most base jumping fatalities?
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and if you want to say that the presence of a reserve skews the death rate...you can look at base jumping (no reserve)... BASE jumpers rely on a single canopy with no reserve parachute.
Two things...
1) This is often overlooked, but the pilot's emergency bailout rig that Cooper used WAS a reserve. It's design parameters, that it doesn't have the 'wear and tear' of regular usage, and that it is packed by a rigger, all adds up to a significantly lower malfunction rate than a sport main.
2) The vast majority of fatalities in base jumping are not caused by parachute malfunctions.
I have zero knowledge to add, and dudeman17 is an expert here.
But still: from the outside llooking in.
The scary case I would see, is jumping off a wall with wind (like El Cap!)
seems like it would be way easy to not realize a wind draft that might blow you back into the wall, or not enough glide in the right direction to get you away from the approaching sloped wall.
Seems like similar problems with wingsuits..misjudging lift/speed/wind/air density (like due to weather)
Arguably no parachute/wingsuit malfunction, but still, things don't give you the lift in the right direction that you expected?
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Found this and thought it was interesting and relevant to the topic at hand:
https://uspa.org/p/Article/another-record-lowthe-2020-fatality-summary
While fatalities are exceedingly rare in sport parachuting, I found this quote worth mentioning:
"Decades ago, a fatality due to failing to pull was one of the more common categories."
Also, this article:
https://www.skydivemag.com/new/2015-06-18-no-pull-fatality/
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2) The vast majority of fatalities in base jumping are not caused by parachute malfunctions.
I'm curious. What causes most base jumping fatalities?
The ground contact. :(
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Do we know what model the reserve chutes were that were provided to Cooper?
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Do we know what model the reserve chutes were that were provided to Cooper?
I've posted before that the fbi apparently thought at some point the reserve that was taken was a T-7A (when they wanted to compare to a parachute in 2001 found near reed island). It said "Norm D" was inscribed on the container. I'll attach that fbi report in another post (attachment limits here)
But read all this info, and think about whether that would make sense? It would mean that the reserve taken probably had a manufacture date earlier than the "training" reserve left behind? I'm not sure they were manufacturing t-7A in 1959???
from info below, military-wise:
"By the end of 1954, the T-7 was almost completely phased out and replaced by the T-10."
the citizen sleuth info says the reserve left behind was manufactured 1959, so you'd think it was a T-10 ?
(The reserve left behind had a canopy from 1959: serial # DA 58-53912. Manufactured in October 1959 by the Switlik Parachute Co, per http://www.citizensleuths.com/pink-parachute-gallery.html
additional info from the fbi files on that reserve: The label on this canvas covering indicated it to be Pack Part number 451187GB and indicated the date of manufacture to have been October, (year illegible). The flap on this canvas exterior contained a sewn on white label with the notation SSS # 5 and COSS. This flap had also been stenciled with the name JOHNSON.)
I'll assume the training reserve was similar vintage.
Here's some pics of a 1962 t7a reserve manufactured by Pioneer
some background on the migration from t7 to t10
Between June 30, 1951, and June 30, 1952, twelve fatalities were traced directly to malfunctions of the T-7 parachute. These were largely due to the fact that the T-7 developed bugs when jumped at speeds ranging up to 150 knots. Tests showed that at 115 knots (130 MPH) or more, it was unreliable, had a dangerously severe opening shock, and caused excessive wear and tear. The slowest at which C-119 pilots flew consistently was 125 knots (145 MPH). A 1944 report indicated that even low speeds of 100 MPH could rip off holsters, canteens, and musette bags, and even snap the helmet weld. The additional speed of the postwar C-119’s meant bruises, severe riser burns, and even some broken shoulders.
http://www.theriggerdepot.com/t-7--t-10-transition.html
This explains why so many cheap t7's were available to skydivers in the 60s
The T-10 was standardized in October 1952, but procurement of the parachute was delayed; 107,981 T-7 parachutes, valued at approximately $25,000,000 were in the system as late as February 18, 1953, of which $12,000,000 were only recently purchased. Despite the obvious advantages of the T-10, some in authority thought that for reasons of economy, the stocks of T-7s should be used up before the T-10 was adopted. This would take either 8-1/2 years or 100 jumps per chute. However, according to Colonel Malloy, that although this "is the same policy that applies to most of our other items of equipment… his life depends on this parachute a whole lot more. When we develop a new type of medicine, if it is proven that it will save more lives, we don’t continue to use old stocks until we use them up. We start procuring it right now."
In February 1953, regardless of cost, the immediate procurement and issue of the T-10 was ordered. Through excellent cooperation of the Air Force, all necessary procedures were completed by March 26, 1953, and the purchase directives for 53,000 T-10s were furnished and the final awards of contract were to take place before May 15. Through the combined efforts of the Quartermaster Corps and the Air Force, an accelerated delivery schedule was set up in which the first 1,000 T-10s arrived in August of 1953. By March 1954, Reliance Manufacturing Company manufactured 30,000 T-10s, Alamo Manufacturing Company 13, 124, and Sigmund Eisner Company 10,000, for a grand total of 53,124 T-10s.
In an effort to recoup part of the $190 for a T-10 assembly, stocks of T-7s were converted to T-10s by utilizing the T-7 harness and pack tray and procuring only the T-10 canopy and deployment bag at a cost of $130. Small extensions where added to the T-7 pack tray to encapsulate the larger canopy; the steel frame, suspension line retainers, and riser tabs were removed, and new snap-on harness retainers were attached. This conversion left many T-7 28’ canopies that still had a useful lifespan. In 1951, the 82nd Airborne Division conceived the idea of converting T-7 troop parachutes into cargo use in an effort to accelerate the phasing out of the T-7. Jeffersonville Depot converted 23,359 of the remaining T-7 parachutes in the system starting in June of 1952. It was predicted that cargo parachute requirements for Korean, training, and mobilization reserves would absorb the majority of T-7 canopies left over from the conversion to the T-10. These conversions saved the army a total of $12,830,510.
By the end of 1954, the T-7 was almost completely phased out and replaced by the T-10. Between October 1953 and January 1954, 12,000 T-10 jumps were accomplished by the XVIII Airborne Corps with no fatalities and a negligible number of injuries. The T-10 soldiered on with several modifications for another 50 years, having been only recently replaced by the T-11.
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reposting of the 2001 fbi file report, mentioning the taken reserve was
'24 foot, white nylon canopy, white nylon shrouds - 14' length model T-7A. Container was olive drab green, 10" x 14" x 6". "Norm D" inscribed on container'
don't know why they would say T-7A in 2001, and why this detail wasn't reported earlier in the files we have
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2) The vast majority of fatalities in base jumping are not caused by parachute malfunctions.
I'm curious. What causes most base jumping fatalities?
A few things. One of the major causes, especially in the early days, would be off-heading openings resulting in striking the object you just jumped from. Base jumping is done with square parachutes. They have a forward speed immediately upon opening. (Even in skydiving, they are packed with the brakes stowed at half, to reduce that speed and because they open better that way, but they still have some speed. A lot of base jumpers use deeper brake stows to further reduce the surge.) You do what you can in the pack job to try to ensure on-heading openings, but you can not guarantee it, so you better be ready to control the heading during and immediately after the opening. This can be practiced on skydives, where an off-heading opening is not that big of a deal. Striking the object can injure or kill you itself, it can collapse the parachute, and it can contribute to landing in a bad area. Another cause is an unstable exit resulting in a roll or over-rotation, resulting in trying to deploy in a bad body position and having the pilot chute bridle (or other part of the canopy) entangle with the jumper. This is much more of a problem on base jumps than on skydives because the airspeed on deployment is usually far lower. Sometimes people have had bad exits, spent too much time trying to work it out and just pulled too low. One malfunction that was a problem was a line-over. For a low altitude, low airspeed jump, you pack the parachute to open extremely quickly. One of the techniques for doing that increases the possibility of one of the brake lines getting over the top, distorting the canopy and causing it to spin. Landing like that could severely injure or kill you. So pretty quickly was developed a method for releasing that brake line, allowing the canopy to fully inflate, then using the rear riser to steer and flare that side. In modern base jumping, with the prevalence of wingsuit proximity flying, a huge cause is simply people getting used to being in freefall mere feet from the ground. If you get comfortable flying your wingsuit four feet off the ground through trees, you've really got nowhere to go but in.
But just doing a normal jump, deploying normally, then having your parachute simply fail to inflate, that really hasn't been a problem.
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The scary case I would see, is jumping off a wall with wind (like El Cap!)
seems like it would be way easy to not realize a wind draft that might blow you back into the wall, or not enough glide in the right direction to get you away from the approaching sloped wall.
Seems like similar problems with wingsuits..misjudging lift/speed/wind/air density (like due to weather)
Arguably no parachute/wingsuit malfunction, but still, things don't give you the lift in the right direction that you expected?
Proper wind assessment and decision making is a MAJOR component of safe(r) base jumping. Winds are not unpredictable. Assessing wind speed and direction, and understanding the effect of upwind and downwind topography is an essential skill. Simply put, if it's too windy, don't jump. "Too windy" differs with different locations and jump types. Most of it concerns canopy opening and flight, but with low altitude wingsuit proximity flying, possible turbulence through flying lines is crucial.
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:
Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:
Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?
If the bailout rig didn't have D-Rings, is there even a way or certified method/technique that exists in the "jumping industry" for attaching a reserve to a bailout rig such that one would expect it to work ? If yes, then Cooper knew how to do this ?
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:
Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?
If the bailout rig didn't have D-Rings, is there even a way or certified method/technique that exists in the "jumping industry" for attaching a reserve to a bailout rig such that one would expect it to work ? If yes, then Cooper knew how to do this ?
dudeman or 377 might comment on this,
but: even if he tied the reserve on with cord...it's not like it would have gave him some more safety? He didn't have any way to cutaway a fouled main. So if he deployed a reserve with a fouled main overhead, he might just still be f*ed up.
dudeman has commented on aspects of the bailout rig that gave it increased likelihood of non-malfunction.
The idea of reserve or no-reserve seems not interesting in terms of anything related to decreased risk, or cooper skill level.
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:
Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?
The fact that Cooper used the bailout rig is primarily indicative of that's what they gave him. He asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. That sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, sport mains and the reserves that go with them. Instead of sport mains, they gave him bailout rigs. Bailout rigs do not use additional reserves because they ARE reserves. The design of the canopy is for opening reliability rather than the flight performance a sport main might have. Unlike sport mains, they are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and at regular intervals whether they are used or not. The theory in an aviation situation that might involve parachutes is that you want to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Aerobatic pilots or military aircrew take bailout rigs because their type of flying might require them to bail out. They don't intend to, and in effect their airplane is their main. A sport jumper intends to jump and use his main, so he takes a reserve in case it malfunctions. Mains might have design parameters to increase their flight performance that might increase the possibility of malfunction. I have heard the analogy that a skydiver wears a reserve for the same reason a driver wears a seatbelt. I prefer to compare it to a spare tire. I tell my students not to regard a malfunction as a near death experience, but more like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day.
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:
Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?
The fact that Cooper used the bailout rig is primarily indicative of that's what they gave him. He asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. That sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, sport mains and the reserves that go with them. Instead of sport mains, they gave him bailout rigs. Bailout rigs do not use additional reserves because they ARE reserves. The design of the canopy is for opening reliability rather than the flight performance a sport main might have. Unlike sport mains, they are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and at regular intervals whether they are used or not. The theory in an aviation situation that might involve parachutes is that you want to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Aerobatic pilots or military aircrew take bailout rigs because their type of flying might require them to bail out. They don't intend to, and in effect their airplane is their main. A sport jumper intends to jump and use his main, so he takes a reserve in case it malfunctions. Mains might have design parameters to increase their flight performance that might increase the possibility of malfunction. I have heard the analogy that a skydiver wears a reserve for the same reason a driver wears a seatbelt. I prefer to compare it to a spare tire. I tell my students not to regard a malfunction as a near death experience, but more like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day.
Dudeman, let me remind everyone that you are talking about the 2020 era with square canopies and not the 1970 era with round canopies. It is agreed that during a malfunction of any kind the first thing you need to do is keep your cool and work on solving your problem.
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Dudeman, let me remind everyone that you are talking about the 2020 era with square canopies and not the 1970 era with round canopies. It is agreed that during a malfunction of any kind the first thing you need to do is keep your cool and work on solving your problem.
The things I described above are timeless. I started on gutter gear and rounds, and everything I described applied as much then as they do now. Even more so. Other than the zero-porosity material, elliptical shapes and high aspect ratio of today's higher performance squares, many lower performance square mains are more similar to square reserves than were the round mains and reserves of yesteryear. The huge drive slots in round mains invited the types of partial inversions that you experienced. That's why the four line release system I described was popular on reserves, as they eliminated drive slots/holes altogether for deployment. And you would not have found a round reserve that was anywhere near the design of the popular Para Commander class of canopy.
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:
Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?
The fact that Cooper used the bailout rig is primarily indicative of that's what they gave him. He asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. That sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, sport mains and the reserves that go with them. Instead of sport mains, they gave him bailout rigs. Bailout rigs do not use additional reserves because they ARE reserves. The design of the canopy is for opening reliability rather than the flight performance a sport main might have. Unlike sport mains, they are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and at regular intervals whether they are used or not. The theory in an aviation situation that might involve parachutes is that you want to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Aerobatic pilots or military aircrew take bailout rigs because their type of flying might require them to bail out. They don't intend to, and in effect their airplane is their main. A sport jumper intends to jump and use his main, so he takes a reserve in case it malfunctions. Mains might have design parameters to increase their flight performance that might increase the possibility of malfunction. I have heard the analogy that a skydiver wears a reserve for the same reason a driver wears a seatbelt. I prefer to compare it to a spare tire. I tell my students not to regard a malfunction as a near death experience, but more like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day.
All very interesting. I wonder if Cooper knew the difference and what his reaction was? It didnt seem to slow him down. He selected and began putting on a chute almost immediately, according to the stews ...
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Please remember that the reserve chute may have been used as a secondary pouch for the money that didn't fit well in the SeaFirst bag.
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:
Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?
The fact that Cooper used the bailout rig is primarily indicative of that's what they gave him. He asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. That sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, sport mains and the reserves that go with them. Instead of sport mains, they gave him bailout rigs. Bailout rigs do not use additional reserves because they ARE reserves. The design of the canopy is for opening reliability rather than the flight performance a sport main might have. Unlike sport mains, they are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and at regular intervals whether they are used or not. The theory in an aviation situation that might involve parachutes is that you want to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Aerobatic pilots or military aircrew take bailout rigs because their type of flying might require them to bail out. They don't intend to, and in effect their airplane is their main. A sport jumper intends to jump and use his main, so he takes a reserve in case it malfunctions. Mains might have design parameters to increase their flight performance that might increase the possibility of malfunction. I have heard the analogy that a skydiver wears a reserve for the same reason a driver wears a seatbelt. I prefer to compare it to a spare tire. I tell my students not to regard a malfunction as a near death experience, but more like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day.
I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute. Plus the two chest reserves? The FBI has used his selection of the NB-8 as evidence that he was inexperienced and chose the inferior chute.
What I’m getting at is: if jumping out of airplanes is easy and if Cooper is experienced, then why ask for a reserve?
Second, with a bailout rig, a reserve fastened haphazardly to him, plus a bank bag tied haphazardly to him seems indicative to him of someone either really inexperienced or someone utterly reckless. He could have become asymmetrical and ended up in an unrecoverable spin or put himself in a position where the bank bag and reserve interfered with his ability to pull the ripcord.
I’m use brainstorming here, but I’ll bow to your better knowledge on this, Dude.
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What I’m getting at is: if jumping out of airplanes is easy and if Cooper is experienced, then why ask for a reserve?
One could label some things Cooper did as disguise:
1) sunglasses
2) smoking
3) saying "front" and "back" chutes like a whuffo.
4) Wearing a suit.
5) timing things for a night jump
6) timing things for a thanksgiving jump?
If he had clearly announced what he wanted and where to get them, that would have been a pretty strong tipoff he was experienced.
Look at it this way: only dumb whuffo FBI would not see thru all the obvious attempts at disguise.
An expert doesn't need much to jump the 727. Making himself look inexperienced takes advantage of his experience, to create confusion for his pursuers.
I mean, he picked the night jump. He picked the time he knew he'd be jumping at ...evening.
Now things that really did matter, he gave exact instructions on
1) flaps
2) speed
3) altitude
so he betrayed some knowledge there, because it was critical to his success. The other stuff wasn't critical. (in terms of how authorities responded)
That sounds like good planning. He knew he could handle a night jump, but his pursuers would have a hard time finding him at night.
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The problem Chaucer, is you want linear thinking.
linear thinking didn't solve Z340
Why expect it to solve Cooper's thinking?
Go a little non-linear. You need to get a little drunk, and get a little more pissed off, and be thinking about fucking the system.
Sure the money is nice, but secondary I think.
The drive to do it, comes from a fuck-you to the system. (some aspect of society) I think. Gotta be pissed off.
EDIT: I don't think it's a fuck-you to a person. A hijack is more about bureaucracies and bigger statements about the world.
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I have no problem thinking outside the box, but I’d rather stay in the realm of reality and not imagination. There’s no evidence to suggest that any of the things you suggested were red herrings. It’s pure speculation which is fine, but none of that be proven. If we go down that road we could imagine all sorts of scenarios and wild theories.
All I’m trying to do is get a read on Cooper’s experience or lack thereof. If he was he was experienced and jumping out of a 727 in the dark is easy, then a reserve is an unnecessary complication. If he used the reserve with the D rings then he was a novice or totally reckless.
I’m looking at the facts at hand and trying to make sense of it in a rational fashion. That said, I fully admit that I do not have the knowledge base of Dudeman and 377 and others.
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:
Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?
The fact that Cooper used the bailout rig is primarily indicative of that's what they gave him. He asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. That sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, sport mains and the reserves that go with them. Instead of sport mains, they gave him bailout rigs. Bailout rigs do not use additional reserves because they ARE reserves. The design of the canopy is for opening reliability rather than the flight performance a sport main might have. Unlike sport mains, they are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and at regular intervals whether they are used or not. The theory in an aviation situation that might involve parachutes is that you want to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Aerobatic pilots or military aircrew take bailout rigs because their type of flying might require them to bail out. They don't intend to, and in effect their airplane is their main. A sport jumper intends to jump and use his main, so he takes a reserve in case it malfunctions. Mains might have design parameters to increase their flight performance that might increase the possibility of malfunction. I have heard the analogy that a skydiver wears a reserve for the same reason a driver wears a seatbelt. I prefer to compare it to a spare tire. I tell my students not to regard a malfunction as a near death experience, but more like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day.
I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute. Plus the two chest reserves? The FBI has used his selection of the NB-8 as evidence that he was inexperienced and chose the inferior chute.
What I’m getting at is: if jumping out of airplanes is easy and if Cooper is experienced, then why ask for a reserve?
Second, with a bailout rig, a reserve fastened haphazardly to him, plus a bank bag tied haphazardly to him seems indicative to him of someone either really inexperienced or someone utterly reckless. He could have become asymmetrical and ended up in an unrecoverable spin or put himself in a position where the bank bag and reserve interfered with his ability to pull the ripcord.
I’m use brainstorming here, but I’ll bow to your better knowledge on this, Dude.
Chaucer, you have some good points above.
Why do skydivers have reserves? Is there a skydiver on this site (including myself) who has not come down on a reserve, some multiple times?
However, in the Cooper jump, he apparently jury-rigged the non-functional reserve to himself. If Cooper used the non-functional reserve container to carry money, why didn't he leave the canopy in the aircraft?
He would have better survival chances, in my opinion, if he minimized the number of things tied to himself even if only jumped with the backpack.
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There is no report or anything to suggest he jury-rigged the training reserve to himself.
why would you say that he did?
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There is no report or anything to suggest he jury-rigged the training reserve to himself.
why would you say that he did?
If Cooper took the non-functional reserve with him, he would have to jury-rig it. Or do you think that he just threw it out the back of the airliner?
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I have no problem thinking outside the box, but I’d rather stay in the realm of reality and not imagination. There’s no evidence to suggest that any of the things you suggested were red herrings. It’s pure speculation which is fine, but none of that be proven. If we go down that road we could imagine all sorts of scenarios and wild theories.
All I’m trying to do is get a read on Cooper’s experience or lack thereof. If he was he was experienced and jumping out of a 727 in the dark is easy, then a reserve is an unnecessary complication. If he used the reserve with the D rings then he was a novice or totally reckless.
I’m looking at the facts at hand and trying to make sense of it in a rational fashion. That said, I fully admit that I do not have the knowledge base of Dudeman and 377 and others.
heh. You're stuck thinking your interpreration of the "facts" is better than whatever Cooper's interpretation was.
So: what would have been the "right" way for an experienced jumper to do the hijack? At least all the jump-related stuff? I don't think there is one. Because it's not just about doing the jump.
It's about doing the jump and not going to jail. (getting the money is probably secondary)
What would have been the "probable" way an inexperienced jumper had done it? Well, any crazy-ass way I guess, given the full spectrum of inexperienced jumpers. (crazy, not-crazy, etc)
I mean if you answer those two questions, they just will show your bias. Nothing about Cooper.
I think your assessment of what is a "fact" and what it means, is mostly about your bias.
Why would an inexperienced jumper plan to jump at night?
I mean if I did it (inexperienced) I would try to guarantee a day jump. That seems basic.
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:
Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?
The fact that Cooper used the bailout rig is primarily indicative of that's what they gave him. He asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. That sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, sport mains and the reserves that go with them. Instead of sport mains, they gave him bailout rigs. Bailout rigs do not use additional reserves because they ARE reserves. The design of the canopy is for opening reliability rather than the flight performance a sport main might have. Unlike sport mains, they are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and at regular intervals whether they are used or not. The theory in an aviation situation that might involve parachutes is that you want to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Aerobatic pilots or military aircrew take bailout rigs because their type of flying might require them to bail out. They don't intend to, and in effect their airplane is their main. A sport jumper intends to jump and use his main, so he takes a reserve in case it malfunctions. Mains might have design parameters to increase their flight performance that might increase the possibility of malfunction. I have heard the analogy that a skydiver wears a reserve for the same reason a driver wears a seatbelt. I prefer to compare it to a spare tire. I tell my students not to regard a malfunction as a near death experience, but more like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day.
I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute. Plus the two chest reserves? The FBI has used his selection of the NB-8 as evidence that he was inexperienced and chose the inferior chute.
What I’m getting at is: if jumping out of airplanes is easy and if Cooper is experienced, then why ask for a reserve?
Second, with a bailout rig, a reserve fastened haphazardly to him, plus a bank bag tied haphazardly to him seems indicative to him of someone either really inexperienced or someone utterly reckless. He could have become asymmetrical and ended up in an unrecoverable spin or put himself in a position where the bank bag and reserve interfered with his ability to pull the ripcord.
I’m use brainstorming here, but I’ll bow to your better knowledge on this, Dude.
Chaucer, you have some good points above.
Why do skydivers have reserves? Is there a skydiver on this site (including myself) who has not come down on a reserve, some multiple times?
However, in the Cooper jump, he apparently jury-rigged the non-functional reserve to himself. If Cooper used the non-functional reserve container to carry money, why didn't he leave the canopy in the aircraft?
He would have better survival chances, in my opinion, if he minimized the number of things tied to himself even if only jumped with the backpack.
I would agree.
Also, the parachutes are arguably the most important part of his plan. If he doesn't get chutes or they don't work, he's cooked. They are the essential element to his crime. So why not be more specific in what he wanted? The chutes are his getaway car. Wouldn't he want to make sure the car was filled with gas and wasn't a lumber truck?
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was just rummaging around.
here's an old picture of the money, which clearly shows in color the difference between dirty (outer layer?) and clean (inner layer) money
EDIT: however: note there are at least 6 face (portrait) "dirty" money bills there. that's interesting, only 3 would have been "full outer" with their faces facing the weather.
interestingly, there's not any of the purple or dark staining in this picture.
maybe the "dirty" is just the foxing discussed before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxing
but why some get fox'ed and not others? maybe some bills were tightly stuck together, and some not?
I find it good for visualizing the bundles.
I think the plastic is maybe fbi evidence bag? Not sure when this is from (what date). .
Bills had been separated
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some old pics that some might not have seen.
I like them for providing context
picture from 1963 two weeks before the national championships that were held at Issaquah.
Linn Emrich is second from left.
Note the jumpship is a old 1929 Travelair
The big bulky reserves in front are kind of huge!
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from the same set of photos in 1963 before the nationals..
here's a pic, taken by Linn Emrich showing a jumper over Issaquah. Can see his container.
This is apparently "on exit" ....dunno where Linn was to take this picture? or remote mount camera?
can see what Issaquah ground looked like from 5000 feet back then.
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rummaging around some more...
I love these two pics.
It's amazing that they were findable.
In 1966, Sheridan was teaching at Clark Air Base in the Phillipines. At Wagner High School.
This was right before he went to Vietnam. He did some jumping while he was at Clark Air Base.
He was advisor for the student paper I guess.
these are pages 84 and 85 of the 1966 Wagner High School yearbook.
Sheridan is wearing a skinny tie in the pic on page 84. Can't tell if there's a tie clip.
I remember at the time wondering "Could that actually be Cooper's skinny tie in the page 84 pic?
Is it a clip-on tie?"
on page 85, he's at the bottom at a desk with students around him.
The insane thing is the caption ...I kid you not.
"Alright, we are going to make this the best bomb scare yet!!!"
What the heck was that about? Isn't that wild? (thinking about cooper's bomb). Weird coincidences :)
You might not believe me, or think I modified the pic.
THe two pics are from
https://whoa.org/66/66yearbook/080.html
or directly
https://whoa.org/66/66yearbook/084.jpg
https://whoa.org/66/66yearbook/085.jpg
it's also interesting he doesn't mention his time at Clark Air Base in his book..he pretty much mentions everything else in his life pre-Vietnam, though, in the book.
(childhood, bubbleator, boeing tech writer, other jobs pre-vietnam)
377 had posted some stuff for me at DZ.com when I was banned.
but I notice all the old pics seem to be not attached to old posts anymore.
So these are interesting...you can see what kind of stuff we were rummaging around through, back in the day (2008-2010)
EDIT: have to be careful typing. Hard to see right now. Got cataract surgery on 2nd eye today. 1st eye was great a couple weeks ago. Amazing what a huge difference it makes. Highly recommend if you have cataracts. Amazing to see colors without yellow tinge. Right eye was totally blurred before. Now great!.
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Also, the parachutes are arguably the most important part of his plan. If he doesn't get chutes or they don't work, he's cooked. They are the essential element to his crime. So why not be more specific in what he wanted? The chutes are his getaway car. Wouldn't he want to make sure the car was filled with gas and wasn't a lumber truck?
I think you're overthinking this.
Any parachute that was recently packed by a rigger would have been "good enough"
witness dudeman's story about a round reserve being packed for the 16-year old that jumped with him off the Die Hard building. Not even a rig with a forward glide ratio? and the kid jumps without saying nuthin'!
I would ask "Why do you think Cooper needs to be specific about rigs?"
I mean, if he's skilled, anything they give him will be good enough.
He's not doing the world's first BASE jump, so he doesn't need to fly
He just needs to land on the ground slowly. Anything will do, as long as it has a harness he can use.
He can pull any time he wants. He's got somewhere close to 10k altitude. Chop it down to 8k and he's still got plenty of time to exit and stabilize before pulling.
Really, there's no constraints on the canopy. He can stabilize at 110 mph and anything will work.
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There is no report or anything to suggest he jury-rigged the training reserve to himself.
why would you say that he did?
If Cooper took the non-functional reserve with him, he would have to jury-rig it. Or do you think that he just threw it out the back of the airliner?
It apparently got put on the plane.
It wasn't on the plane when it landed.
Somehow it disappeared. By Cooper's hand? Sure, that's most likely.
Me, if I was kind of worried about the jump, I might toss it out as a poor man's wind indicator, just to see how fast it whooshed out behind the jet..to get me ready for the blast.
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There is no report or anything to suggest he jury-rigged the training reserve to himself.
why would you say that he did?
If Cooper took the non-functional reserve with him, he would have to jury-rig it. Or do you think that he just threw it out the back of the airliner?
It apparently got put on the plane.
It wasn't on the plane when it landed.
Somehow it disappeared. By Cooper's hand? Sure, that's most likely.
Me, if I was kind of worried about the jump, I might toss it out as a poor man's wind indicator, just to see how fast it whooshed out behind the jet..to get me ready for the blast.
That last sentence above would be a waste of time.
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There is no report or anything to suggest he jury-rigged the training reserve to himself.
why would you say that he did?
If Cooper took the non-functional reserve with him, he would have to jury-rig it. Or do you think that he just threw it out the back of the airliner?
It apparently got put on the plane.
It wasn't on the plane when it landed.
Somehow it disappeared. By Cooper's hand? Sure, that's most likely.
Me, if I was kind of worried about the jump, I might toss it out as a poor man's wind indicator, just to see how fast it whooshed out behind the jet..to get me ready for the blast.
That last sentence above would be a waste of time.
Were there any Army airborne units at Fort Lewis in 1971? I have not been able to find any reference. Here is why I ask:
Cooper asked for two fronts and two backs, as far as we know. His options for describing the chutes would be:
1. Two fronts and two backs.
2. Two mains and two reserves
3. A skydiving rig
4. A bailout rig
5. A combination of these
6. Other terms??
Why say two fronts and two backs and not two mains and two reserves? This tells me he was not a skydiver, or he was trying to hide that he was. He does not sound like airborne, because he likely would have said two mains/two reserves. "If my main don't open wide, I've got a reserve by my side." But, he mentions McChord Air Force Base and not Fort Lewis as where the chutes are coming from. Does this indicate an Air Force background or an Army background? Why not say the chutes are coming from Lewis or from a skydive center?
I'm on the fence about him using the reserve for the money. He may have done it, but it was not his original plan. My suspicion is that he planned to jump with a back and a front, and put the money in a good spot on his body. The money showing up like it did probably took him off plan. But to me it makes sense he would want to jump with two chutes. One because it is normal, two because he did not trust the FBI.
The language on this had me interested a few years ago. Bruce has a good section in his book on this.
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I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute...
If Cossey is to be believed, that may be. But Cossey's credibility is strained due to conflicting statements. If it is true, then the sport main would have the D-rings for the reserve. The bailout rig would not. But I was under the impression that the best evidence was that the two back rigs they gave him were the two bailout rigs belonging to Hayden.
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As R99 says, an experienced jumper wears a reserve because parachutes occasionally malfunction. Being prepared for that is part of what makes jumping 'easier'.
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As for having a bunch of crap tied to himself making it hard to get the ripcord handle - That is absolutely a valid concern. If he's smart, once he gets everything set up, he checks for that possibility. If something was able to move and give him that problem, he should tie it down more securely. That might also contribute to a decision to pull off the stairs.
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Me, if I was kind of worried about the jump, I might toss it out as a poor man's wind indicator, just to see how fast it whooshed out behind the jet..to get me ready for the blast.
I've actually considered that as well. He specified flaps, wheels down, and a slow airspeed. He might well have wanted to check out the 'prop blast'.
Also, if he was familiar with the Thailand jumps and how the deployment bags got blown upwards, and he was considering pulling off the stairs...
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If the bailout rig didn't have D-Rings, is there even a way or certified method/technique that exists in the "jumping industry" for attaching a reserve to a bailout rig such that one would expect it to work ? If yes, then Cooper knew how to do this ?
That's an interesting thought. If he tied it to the harness, it may or may not hold, depending on how well he did it. If he used the thin parachute line to tie it to himself and then deployed it, that would hurt like hell, and possibly be seriously or even fatally injurious.
But no, there's no set 'method' for doing that because it is not a usual practice or necessary.
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If the bailout rig didn't have D-Rings, is there even a way or certified method/technique that exists in the "jumping industry" for attaching a reserve to a bailout rig such that one would expect it to work ? If yes, then Cooper knew how to do this ?
That's an interesting thought. If he tied it to the harness, it may or may not hold, depending on how well he did it. If he used the thin parachute line to tie it to himself and then deployed it, that would hurt like hell, and possibly be seriously or even fatally injurious.
But no, there's no set 'method' for doing that because it is not a usual practice or necessary.
Thanks Dudeman, I was going to follow up with the question of whether or not you have ever heard of it being done ? (i.e. tying a reserve to a bailout rig ) But it doesn't really make sense right, why would you do that under any normal situation.
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witness dudeman's story about a round reserve being packed for the 16-year old that jumped with him off the Die Hard building. Not even a rig with a forward glide ratio? and the kid jumps without saying nuthin'!
Actually the chute he used did have some forward drive and steerability. On round mains, the 'drive slots' are a series of squarish holes cut out of the bottom back of the canopy, and a couple of them are longer, reaching higher up the canopy. This allows air to escape out the back, giving the drive and steerability. But they invite the 'partial inversion' malfunction, where part of the canopy skirt blows through them and tries to inflate inside out. Reserves would have a couple of the holes but not the longer slots, reducing but not eliminating that possibility. The four line release pretty much eliminated that malfunction. Then at some point, in a true face-palm 'duh!' moment, someone had the brilliant idea of covering those holes with mesh, allowing air through but not material. That's what the kid was jumping.
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Cooper choosing a better chute - If he had the option of a steerable chute, that would help him get into a better landing area and avoid obstacles such as trees or a rocky hillside.
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The 'Pursuit' movie stunt - Obviously Carl Boenish is gone. Kevin Donnelly passed away some years ago from cancer. Same with Dean Westgaard many years ago. Ray Cottingham is still around. NickyB contacted him a while back on Facebook, but he didn't have a lot to say. Not familiar with the other two. I don't know this to be fact, but knowing a bit about how such things are done, if they had three cameramen and three other jumpers, they likely had three Cooper's. (At least two.) Two loads times three pairs would give them six jumps to choose edits from. The landing shot is likely a separate thing.
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Cooper had no trouble donning an NB rig. That tells me he was no stranger to parachutes. The FBI supplied instructions for using the parachute rigs but Cooper didn’t bother to read them. The very specific flight configuration demands he gave to the pilots tell me he was no stranger to aircraft and airdrops. None of the foregoing proves he ever jumped before but I’ll bet he wore a parachute rig before and had some involvement with airdrops of cargo, personnel or both.
I vividly recall my initial reaction to the T Bar money find. I was certain the case would be solved soon. Little did I know that decades later I would own one of those twenties and the Cooper mystery would be no closer to solution than it was before the find. .
Life in the Vortex. Do you spin in the opposite direction south of the equator? Is there any way out? Asking for a friend.
377
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It’s been a minute since I’ve engaged this particular discussion, but I want to double down on it. By the way, much thanks to dudeman and 377 for sharing their thoughts.
Here is what I’m stuck on:
If this jump is so easy then anyone - even a novice or whuffo - could have pulled it off. If all one has to do is know how to pull the ripcord, then any jump experience is utterly unnecessary. Therefore, any suspect does NOT have to have jump experience. All he has to do is have a basic knowledge of chutes.
Granted, DBC seemed to display some knowledge, but knowing how to put on a rig and what the best configuration is for a jump is something one could have learned simply by asking.
It seems that many in the Vortex want it both ways: they want to claim the jump was no sweat, but also advocate for Cooper to be some super-experienced skydiver. If the jump is as easy as the experts claim, then jumping expertise is not necessary.
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Cooper had no trouble donning an NB rig. That tells me he was no stranger to parachutes. The FBI supplied instructions for using the parachute rigs but Cooper didn’t bother to read them. The very specific flight configuration demands he gave to the pilots tell me he was no stranger to aircraft and airdrops. None of the foregoing proves he ever jumped before but I’ll bet he wore a parachute rig before and had some involvement with airdrops of cargo, personnel or both.
I vividly recall my initial reaction to the T Bar money find. I was certain the case would be solved soon. Little did I know that decades later I would own one of those twenties and the Cooper mystery would be no closer to solution than it was before the find. .
Life in the Vortex. Do you spin in the opposite direction south of the equator? Is there any way out? Asking for a friend.
377
I don't think there is any conclusive evidence one way or the other on the spin matter. And if there is any evidence at all it will probably be very weak.
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I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute...
If Cossey is to be believed, that may be. But Cossey's credibility is strained due to conflicting statements. If it is true, then the sport main would have the D-rings for the reserve. The bailout rig would not. But I was under the impression that the best evidence was that the two back rigs they gave him were the two bailout rigs belonging to Hayden.
Yup. That's my current understanding based upon the two Pioneer/Steinthal packing cards found. In Reno we have SN 60-6097 and we have SN 226 from the chute returned to Hayden and now in the WSHM.
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I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute...
If Cossey is to be believed, that may be. But Cossey's credibility is strained due to conflicting statements. If it is true, then the sport main would have the D-rings for the reserve. The bailout rig would not. But I was under the impression that the best evidence was that the two back rigs they gave him were the two bailout rigs belonging to Hayden.
Yup. That's my current understanding based upon the two Pioneer/Steinthal packing cards found. In Reno we have SN 60-6097 and we have SN 226 from the chute returned to Hayden and now in the WSHM.
Identical?
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I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute...
If Cossey is to be believed, that may be. But Cossey's credibility is strained due to conflicting statements. If it is true, then the sport main would have the D-rings for the reserve. The bailout rig would not. But I was under the impression that the best evidence was that the two back rigs they gave him were the two bailout rigs belonging to Hayden.
Yup. That's my current understanding based upon the two Pioneer/Steinthal packing cards found. In Reno we have SN 60-6097 and we have SN 226 from the chute returned to Hayden and now in the WSHM.
Identical?
Bruce interviewed Hayden and was shown the parachute that was returned to him and which is now in the WSHM. Bruce can answer this conclusively but he has posted that Hayden told him the parachutes were the same which translates to identical or something very close to it. If they were identical, or close to it, then neither parachute was an NB6 or NB8.
Has any progress been made on getting the WSHM's permission to have a rigger open the chute they have and get the identifying numbers and information?
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Has any progress been made on getting the WSHM's permission to have a rigger open the chute they have and get the identifying numbers and information?
Sadly, no. I have always got a rather quick response from them in the past. the new manager did introduce herself prior to my email but never responded. I will send another email and see what happens. she did explain they were working on new exhibits and getting settled back in from the lockdown...
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“ If they were identical, or close to it, then neither parachute was an NB6 or NB8.”
Just a friendly reminder, NB 6 and NB 8 are Navy Back harness and container items not parachute canopies.
NB 6 in Navy service normally contained a 26 ft conical canopy. The NB 8 normally contained a 28 ft C9 round canopy.
377
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I’m not a rigger but am capable of opening, inspecting and repacking the Norman Hayden rig the WSHM has.
It would be free of course. The rig is way out of date so it would need a rigger inspection and repack before being put back into service as an emergency rig. My unlicensed work wouldn’t endanger anyone.
Best bet is to hire a real rigger. Should cost about $60-80.
377
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“ If they were identical, or close to it, then neither parachute was an NB6 or NB8.”
Just a friendly reminder, NB 6 and NB 8 are Navy Back harness and container items not parachute canopies.
NB 6 in Navy service normally contained a 26 ft conical canopy. The NB 8 normally contained a 28 ft C9 round canopy.
377
Bruce has posted pictures of Hayden with his remaining back parachute on. The harness is clearly not an NB6 harness. I have never seen an NB8 harness but assume it is similar to the NB6.
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As I recall NB 6 and NB 8 look nearly identical with the 8 having larger volume in the container.
377
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I sent another email to WSHS. I will also try to contact them regarding the repacking of the chute..
Sorry, I meant contact them by phone also...
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I did not want to get in the way and post in Cooper Con thread. But that article EU posted, can you imagine if he is still alive and out there? How could he resist showing up just out of curiosity? Perhaps that is why he has never been caught. But it its likely 60/40 or so against him being alive, but who knows? People live well into their 90s and beyond. I just hope he quit the smokes. Or switched to lights. Keep your eyes out for old men with sunglass's. Would anyone know its him anyway? Would Tina even know? Recognize his voice perhaps? We can all wish for such an event to come true but i'ts highly unlikely don't you think? I for one do NOT believe Himmelsbach and his theory. No way. But DB Cooper being alive now is another story. Buts its certainly possible.
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What you're envisioning DF is quite an ironic scene: DB Cooper shows up, but not Larry Carr, Curtis Eng, Tina Mucklow, et. al.
Which begs the question - why do so many people avoid talking to us Cooperites about one of the biggest, most dramatic events of their lives?
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What you're envisioning DF is quite an ironic scene: DB Cooper shows up, but not Larry Carr, Curtis Eng, Tina Mucklow, et. al.
Which begs the question - why do so many people avoid talking to us Cooperites about one of the biggest, most dramatic events of their lives?
Bruce, you are jumping to some unwarranted conclusions above. In reality, the Cooper hijacking was a two-bit crime where the culprit fell through the cracks, probably both figuratively and literally.
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... and yet, here we are 50 years later, at 11 p.m PST on a Saturday night talking about the guy....
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... and yet, here we are 50 years later, at 11 p.m PST on a Saturday night talking about the guy....
Well, it would normally be 2 AM my time, but I just spent the last three days driving from Tennessee to Northern California, so I'm in DB Cooper Time Zone tonight...
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Welcome to the PST Zone, partner.
Northern Cali? What brings you so close to Cooper Country?
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Welcome to the PST Zone, partner.
Northern Cali? What brings you so close to Cooper Country?
Work. Drove all that way for a job this morning that took less than an hour, lol. Tonight I find myself stopping in Utah and then heading on down to New Mexico tomorrow for a job I could do in 3 hours, but I'm told it's going to take 3 days. It's been a cool drive, saw a lot of country that I had never seen before. Don't know that I'm too eager to make that drive again though.
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Ah, New Mexico. I love Santa Fe, and even tried living there for a spell. May go back, too.
What do you do that compels people to pay you to drive 2,000 miles and work for an hour? That's faster money than I make being a DBC expert in Hollywood!
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Ah, New Mexico. I love Santa Fe, and even tried living there for a spell. May go back, too.
What do you do that compels people to pay you to drive 2,000 miles and work for an hour? That's faster money than I make being a DBC expert in Hollywood!
The company that I work for makes gauges for different types of industries. These gauges work off of a radioactive source. The NRC requires someone from our company to be onsite when these sources are installed so that we can test them and ensure that they are safe. Further, the NRC requires certain testing to be done every 6 months on the radioactive sources. Some companies don't really want to mess with doing that themselves, so they pay us to drive the 2,000 miles to do the testing. Typically, that large of a distance would be something that I would have to fly, but I was able to work it in with 3 other jobs. Plus, I've tried to stay away from airports since that little stunt I pulled back in '71....
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But that was so LONG ago, Parrot. Surely no one still cares about it...
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=stPQdknaO7s&feature=share
A very interesting claim
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https://youtube.com/watch?v=stPQdknaO7s&feature=share
A very interesting claim
good news video from back then, on the day of the FBI search of tena bar, when they found that one good scrap and showed it on camera
here (right before)
https://youtu.be/stPQdknaO7s?t=477
kind of cool seeing how white that fragment is.
FBI agent confirms some fragments found 2 to 3 feet deep in the video there.
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Did the shard found 3 ft down actually reside there or was in inadvertently mixed by shoveling and actually resided much closer to the surface. The dig was tragically flawed compared to a disciplined carefully documented archaeological excavation. If the shards were widely distributed horizontally and vertically then it suggests to me that it was dredge spoils. If so, how do you account for 3 intact bundles within the shard field? Eric U. Says the shard field was only in close proximity around the bill stack and not wide or deep. Very few currency pieces were kept by FBI.
377
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Did the shard found 3 ft down actually reside there or was in inadvertently mixed by shoveling and actually resided much closer to the surface. The dig was tragically flawed compared to a disciplined carefully documented archaeological excavation. If the shards were widely distributed horizontally and vertically then it suggests to me that it was dredge spoils. If so, how do you account for 3 intact bundles within the shard field? Eric U. Says the shard field was only in close proximity around the bill stack and not wide or deep. Very few currency pieces were kept by FBI.
377
EU, ... is either right or wrong! In either case his is only an OPINION and nothing more until he or somebody else presents some cold facts.
But, the process of discovery broke down many months ago. It started with Colbert and others preceding him. Then came EU. EU isn't solely to blame for this but he is definitely one of the current contributors. Any time you mix politics and special interest with 'science', fact gathering suffers badly. Very likely we will never know the answer and no single opinion will ever be accepted. We now live in the territory of basic uncertainty so far as the Cooper case is concerned. The Cooper case is known as a Vortex for all of these reasons.
I credit Tom Kaye, Shutter, and Flyjack with having built a fairly reliable body of facts about this case. That's the central foundation on which progress is going to be made if that can happen at all.
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377: There is no data that says there were "3 intact bundles"
I count bundles as something close to 100 bills, as delivered to Cooper.
It's very unclear whether there were chunks from 3 different bundles, just two or maybe even just one.
Yes there were 3 (divided into 12) chunks presented to FBI.
How come no one seems to agree with me on this? It seems huge. As big an issue as the mistakes on the parachutes.
All this talk about the money, and there are basic "facts" that are not well understood.
The timeline, and different numbers, used for "number of bills founds" is totally unclear.
No FBI files give us the info, in any kind of traceable way. (who counted and how? Did they weigh, separate or ?? Did they look at top/bottom start/end serials?? All known)
There is no agreed-on number for "number of bills found" that has any merit.
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Cooper was not a republican.
I want to be the first to make the Cooper discussion, "required" to have a discussion about politics.
Just as important as discussing his hairline.
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377: There is no data that says there were "3 intact bundles"
I count bundles as something close to 100 bills, as delivered to Cooper.
It's very unclear whether there were chunks from 3 different bundles, just two or maybe even just one.
Yes there were 3 (divided into 12) chunks presented to FBI.
How come no one seems to agree with me on this? It seems huge. As big an issue as the mistakes on the parachutes.
All this talk about the money, and there are basic "facts" that are not well understood.
The timeline, and different numbers, used for "number of bills founds" is totally unclear.
No FBI files give us the info, in any kind of traceable way. (who counted and how? Did they weigh, separate or ?? Did they look at top/bottom start/end serials?? All known)
There is no agreed-on number for "number of bills found" that has any merit.
'The money was badly decomposed and was held together with rubber bands which were so old they crumbled away immediately upon handling. They took the money home where they showed it to INGRAMs brother-in-law, who took the rest of the rubber bands off and was going to dry out the money and try to reclaim it. They had no idea at this time where the money had come from.'
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Cooper was not a republican.
I want to be the first to make the Cooper discussion, "required" to have a discussion about politics.
Just as important as discussing his hairline.
Are you joking about his political affiliation? And you realize he received only $20 bills right? I'm a bit confused by your $100 bill comment. Ready to go out and do some ground pounding? Ha. Send me a plane ticket and Ill help
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Cooper was not a republican.
I want to be the first to make the Cooper discussion, "required" to have a discussion about politics.
Just as important as discussing his hairline.
Are you joking about his political affiliation? And you realize he received only $20 bills right? I'm a bit confused by your $100 bill comment. Ready to go out and do some ground pounding? Ha. Send me a plane ticket and Ill help
hah, questioning me about the money he received?
Do you think he got any bills with consecutive serials?
If so, what's the largest sequence of consecutive serials (no gaps)
There's no end to the minutiae that can be created!
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Did the shard found 3 ft down actually reside there or was in inadvertently mixed by shoveling and actually resided much closer to the surface.
Contamination of the dig, percentage is low IMHO.
Lets assume the money was buried and the bills deteriorated over time. the fragments should be in the same general area of the bundles, packs, clump, wad etc. Brian comes along and exposes the bills. the FBI returns and starts digging. yes, Brian would of shifted the frags to a certain degree, but not much..
The start of the dig will only be breached by the shovels. the bodies would be several feet from the dig area. now, the surface area as been removed where the money was found. that should also mean all the pieces went with the surface dig down to a foot or so. the fragments that came off the bills couldn't have separated downward? as the hole got bigger and bigger shouldn't be a concern if the money was buried. that area has been dug up long before a 5-10 round hole is dug. I'm not sure how they addressed the top layer surrounding the money location. did they sift the sand like seen in later photo's during the dig?
I just don't think fragments got transferred to different depths, especially, if the money was buried in 1971. even if it got exposed and buried again. they should stay pretty much together. the other problem I've had a hard time with is the story surrounding the spreading of the sand and Palmer showing where the dredge lines were. how can this be if the sand was not pushed that far it's like telling a story of me walking from point A to point B and showing tire tracks as proof? the story line is skewed.
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I follow shutter's line of reasoning.
But it's so odd that the so-called 3' deep fragment was so white and flat in the video.
if it was alone, buried down at 3', I would have expected it to have been a little discolored, and not flat.
it looks like it came off one of the bundles that were found, at some point, some place.
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Yup, the deep fragments are a puzzlement. Another mystery.
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Did the shard found 3 ft down actually reside there or was in inadvertently mixed by shoveling and actually resided much closer to the surface.
Contamination of the dig, percentage is low IMHO.
Lets assume the money was buried and the bills deteriorated over time. the fragments should be in the same general area of the bundles, packs, clump, wad etc. Brian comes along and exposes the bills. the FBI returns and starts digging. yes, Brian would of shifted the frags to a certain degree, but not much..
The start of the dig will only be breached by the shovels. the bodies would be several feet from the dig area. now, the surface area as been removed where the money was found. that should also mean all the pieces went with the surface dig down to a foot or so. the fragments that came off the bills couldn't have separated downward? as the hole got bigger and bigger shouldn't be a concern if the money was buried. that area has been dug up long before a 5-10 round hole is dug. I'm not sure how they addressed the top layer surrounding the money location. did they sift the sand like seen in later photo's during the dig?
I just don't think fragments got transferred to different depths, especially, if the money was buried in 1971. even if it got exposed and buried again. they should stay pretty much together. the other problem I've had a hard time with is the story surrounding the spreading of the sand and Palmer showing where the dredge lines were. how can this be if the sand was not pushed that far it's like telling a story of me walking from point A to point B and showing tire tracks as proof? the story line is skewed.
So Shutter, let me ask you this. Don't you think that plate with the instructions to lower the rear stairs, found by a hunter could actually be a good clue as to where he actually jumped? I mean, it must have come off due to his allowing the stairs to slam after leaping. So it must have fallen a reasonable distance from where he leaped?
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The placard didn't come from flight 305!
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The placard didn't come from flight 305!
Ah, yes, DB Fan; then there's this.
I generally concur with Shutter on this subject. What concerns me more is that the placard that was found is now missing, as I understand the situation. What I last heard was that the FBI never took possession of the placard and it remained with the Cowlitz County Sherrif's Office, and currently they can't find it in their evidence locker. To me, that speaks to the limits of expertise in large scale LE departments and rural ones.
It is the same thing with the large shards found by the feds. Where are they now? More troubling is how they ended up buried in the sand? Could we have both intentional burial AND a dredge splatter at T-Bar? Whew......
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It's probably not missing...they don't have files that far back..if it wasn't really "evidence" then it was tossed..
I called them several years ago. they just don't have files that far back..anything of value is turned over vs keeping things..
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I understand, but still; it's DB Cooper for Gawd sakes. Even though it isn't, really.
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The placard didn't come from flight 305!
So why so many reports that it did!! Its from a 727. OK. Ill take your word for it.
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The placard has always been suspect. Remember, it could be from 305. But most likely not.
However, I believe Boeing reported that the placard from 305 was missing when they repaired it Nov. 26 at Boeing Field.
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The placard didn't come from flight 305!
So why so many reports that it did!! Its from a 727. OK. Ill take your word for it.
The placard does go on a 727. only a certain amount had the emergency pull handle the placard states. it's separate from the normal stair controls found at the top of the stairs beyond the bulkhead door. a video of the interior of the stairs of flight 305 shows the emergency control panel is not on the plane.
I suspected something was wrong years ago when I realized the stairs wouldn't lock if the system was utilized. another video shortly after 305 landed shows the stairs down and in the fully locked position.
The FBI never openly dismissed the placard nor did they gain possession of the placard.
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I suspected something was wrong years ago when I realized the stairs wouldn't lock if the system was utilized. another video shortly after 305 landed shows the stairs down and in the fully locked position.
The FBI never openly dismissed the placard nor did they gain possession of the placard.
I forget, but wasn't there later models of the 727 or maybe other aft stairs planes where they could lock the stairs?
Because they wanted to use the stairs as a tailstand when the plane was sitting on the ground unloaded and not tip up on it's tail (nose up)
that's really a thing
no time to look now, but tailstands are a thing.
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The stairs lock when using the normal stair functions. if the plane is equipped with the emergency release it will damage the stairs to where it will no longer lock in the down position. it's goal is to release the stairs so people can get out if they are damaged in a crash and the normal controls fail..
The stairs need to be down when parked. it's balanced to where very little weight in the back will cause it to tip..they either use the stairs or a tail stand to support the tail..we call it a pogo stick in construction..
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The placard has always been suspect. Remember, it could be from 305. But most likely not.
However, I believe Boeing reported that the placard from 305 was missing when they repaired it Nov. 26 at Boeing Field.
Somebody reported it missing - that my recollection too. Who? Documentation?
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It was someone from the day of testing that reported it missing. this was only documented after the placard was found. another report stated after the hijacking...
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The placard is like a decal or a bumper sticker. it's not going to come off very easy. placards are known to come off the exterior of aircraft. my guess would be fuel related and wind shear peeling it off over time..
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The placard has always been suspect. Remember, it could be from 305. But most likely not.
However, I believe Boeing reported that the placard from 305 was missing when they repaired it Nov. 26 at Boeing Field.
Somebody reported it missing - that my recollection too. Who? Documentation?
I've been wondering the same thing, G. I guess I've got it somewhere in my files, but until that cute, blond intern shows up to sort things out, I'm reluctant to go looking.
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It was someone from the flight crew that did the testing..his memory is sharp as ever..he claims the decal was missing two days later when they did the test.
The hijacking was November 24, 1971. the flight test was done January 6, 1972. the statement was made seven years after the fact..his memory is actually dull as can be. it's almost like he was saying this to backup what was found. no other documentation has surfaced..
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It was someone from the flight crew that did the testing..his memory is sharp as ever..he claims the decal was missing two days later when they did the test.
The hijacking was November 24, 1971. the flight test was done January 6, 1972. the statement was made seven years after the fact..his memory is actually dull as can be. it's almost like he was saying this to backup what was found. no other documentation has surfaced..
The airliner was repaired and back in line service within about two days of the hijacking. It was flown back to SEATAC on Thursday afternoon November 25th (Thanksgiving Day) and would have been repaired on Friday and/or Saturday. Since the repairs mostly involved the stairs and their opening and closing mechanism, the placard should have been noted as missing (if it was missing) and replaced during the return to service inspection.
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Other placards can be seen in the video showing the stairs. the other problem would be having a placard for an emergency option that doesn't appear to be on 305.
Most of the test crew didn't have anything to do with the plane. most wouldn't be involved until the time for the test..
The stairs were opened long before the area the placard was found. the pressure had settled to hardly any movement on the stairs. the placard should of been found around McChord..
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Much like hurricane shutters you have pressure involved. the maximum gap is one quarter inch from the wall. anything more allows pressure to pull the shutter off the wall. the decal is strong, similar to a bumper sticker. I have a problem believing pressure got behind it..
Sounds like a negative load is required to pull the placard off the wall. that would occur when the stairs opened..
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Much like hurricane shutters you have pressure involved. the maximum gap is one quarter inch from the wall. anything more allows pressure to pull the shutter off the wall. the decal is strong, similar to a bumper sticker. I have a problem believing pressure got behind it..
Sounds like a negative load is required to pull the placard off the wall. that would occur when the stairs opened..
turbulent flow? Think of how much a leafblower can do with 120MPH air flow. The turbulence can be as damaging as a constant force.
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Yes, wind will seek out weak spots and slowly tear things apart.
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The placard didn't come from flight 305!
Well I have heard just the opposite reported on many shows on this topic. So sorry if I do not take your word as gospel. No offense.
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There's been some discussion recently about Rat's statement about seeing the "lights of Portland" and that Cooper jumped before then. If the sky was overcast with two cloud layers, how would that affect the crew's ability to see the city lights? Perhaps the city lights would be bright enough to penetrate the cloud cover?
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There's been some discussion recently about Rat's statement about seeing the "lights of Portland" and that Cooper jumped before then. If the sky was overcast with two cloud layers, how would that affect the crew's ability to see the city lights? Perhaps the city lights would be bright enough to penetrate the cloud cover?
These were experienced pilots - to put it mildly! These people know the difference between light and dark .... just as they know the difference between a camel and a bath tub!
Duhhhhhhhhhh.
This is NOT an issue of fine distinctions requiring measurements. They knew where they were, they knew what they were seeing based on thousands of hours of prior experience .... the only issue is the timing of the reports. Cooper seems to have had some idea of how much time had passed since becoming airborne and where the plane was .... he knew, for example, the plane was nowhere near Reno or Columbus, KS. He knew he was south of Seattle somewhere approaching the Columbia/Portland.
The clock and the heading of the plane render R99's 'two layers of clouds' irrelevant. Rtzk's statement about what he saw during this time period further renders R99's clouds irrelevant. Read the music! There is no part in the music for 'two layers of clouds'!
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Rataczak has said a lot of things about the whereabouts of 305 when Cooper jumped. In the 2016 HC docu he said that 305 was over land that had an elevation of 5,000 feet, giving Cooper only 5,000 feet of air in which to pull his ripcord. Presumably, this put 305 over the western flank of Mt St. Helens, about 30 miles east of V-23.
In 2009, he told me that 305 was "probably a couple miles east of V-23."
In 2011, Himmelsbach told me that Rataczak told him that 305 was over the Washougal, which is 5-10 miles east of V-23.
The recent commentary presented in the Gryder docu that 305 could see Portland clearly because the weather system was breaking up is brand new information, as far as I know. I had never heard that opinion before.
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Rataczak has said a lot of things about the whereabouts of 305 when Cooper jumped. In the 2016 HC docu he said that 305 was over land that had an elevation of 5,000 feet, giving Cooper only 5,000 feet of air in which to pull his ripcord. Presumably, this put 305 over the western flank of Mt St. Helens, about 30 miles east of V-23.
In 2009, he told me that 305 was "probably a couple miles east of V-23."
In 2011, Himmelsbach told me that Rataczak told him that 305 was over the Washougal, which is 5-10 miles east of V-23.
The recent commentary presented in the Gryder docu that 305 could see Portland clearly because the weather system was breaking up is brand new information, as far as I know. I had never heard that opinion before.
Your contribution to the Cooper case has been to raise doubts, sew confusions, and stall it forever. With any luck Doomsday will end it once and for all time!
If you have been running WWI, it would still be going on! :rofl:
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There's been some discussion recently about Rat's statement about seeing the "lights of Portland" and that Cooper jumped before then. If the sky was overcast with two cloud layers, how would that affect the crew's ability to see the city lights? Perhaps the city lights would be bright enough to penetrate the cloud cover?
These were experienced pilots - to put it mildly! These people know the difference between light and dark .... just as they know the difference between a camel and a bath tub!
Duhhhhhhhhhh.
This is NOT an issue of fine distinctions requiring measurements. They knew where they were, they knew what they were seeing based on thousands of hours of prior experience .... the only issue is the timing of the reports. Cooper seems to have had some idea of how much time had passed since becoming airborne and where the plane was .... he knew, for example, the plane was nowhere near Reno or Columbus, KS. He knew he was south of Seattle somewhere approaching the Columbia/Portland.
The clock and the heading of the plane render R99's 'two layers of clouds' irrelevant. Rtzk's statement about what he saw during this time period further renders R99's clouds irrelevant. Read the music! There is no part in the music for 'two layers of clouds'!
I won't speak for Robert99, but the FBI files indicate the following:
Thick rain clouds at 10,000 feet
Overcast to 5,000 feet
Broken clouds to 2,700 feet
Scattered clouds to 1,500 feet.
The bottom line is that it was quite cloudy. My question, which you didn't directly address, Georger, was: could the crew have seen the lights of Portland and the surrounding suburbs through the clouds? It's not a complicated question and isn't indicative of some agenda of mine or narrative that I want to push. I'm merely asking the question: could the city lights have been bright enough to penetrate all of that cloud cover for the crew to see?
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There's been some discussion recently about Rat's statement about seeing the "lights of Portland" and that Cooper jumped before then. If the sky was overcast with two cloud layers, how would that affect the crew's ability to see the city lights? Perhaps the city lights would be bright enough to penetrate the cloud cover?
the FBI files indicate the following:
Thick rain clouds at 10,000 feet
Overcast to 5,000 feet
Broken clouds to 2,700 feet
Scattered clouds to 1,500 feet.
The bottom line is that it was quite cloudy. My question, which you didn't directly address, Georger, was: could the crew have seen the lights of Portland and the surrounding suburbs through the clouds? It's not a complicated question and isn't indicative of some agenda of mine or narrative that I want to push. I'm merely asking the question: could the city lights have been bright enough to penetrate all of that cloud cover for the crew to see?
I can't comment about the timing or the flight path, but about light coming through clouds...
It depends on the amount, thickness, and density of the clouds, and whether there is any patchiness, or holes in them. Light will glow through some cloud cover, but if there are enough clouds it won't. Think of looking up at the night sky to see a full moon. Clear night, sure you can see it. Some clouds, you can see the light glow through it. If the clouds are thick/dense enough, you won't see any light. There seems to be conflict in the differing weather reports for that night. A key part of the answer in my mind, though, is - The crew did in fact report seeing the lights. Are we to doubt their word?
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Thanks, dudeman17,
So, it’s possible that they could have seen the city lights through the clouds. It’s also possible that the cloud cover would have made seeing the lights of Portland/Vancouver impossible. It’s difficult to answer because we cannot know the precise weather conditions in that area at that exact time.
Regarding your question about doubting the word of the crew. Couple things to consider. First, we must weigh the statements they made immediately after the incident versus statements made decades later. Here’s an example: in the Zodiac Killer case, a police officer named Foulke wrote a memo to the SFPD brass stating in detail how he saw the killer of taxi cab driver Paul Stine (later confirmed to be a Zodiac victim) as he he walked away from the crime scene. He was interviewed two decades later for a documentary and added the details that the killer walked with a limp and had a widow’s peak. Four decades later, he added and subtracted even more details, contradicting the very memo that he wrote in the days and weeks following the sighting. To complicate matters, Foulke’s partner who was sitting in the passenger seat next to him claimed he saw no such man described by Foulke. So what do we believe? Foulke’s initial description? The description twenty years later? The description 40 years later? Or his partner’s statements? Do we believe a combination?
I’m not claiming to know the answers to these questions, but I do think that it’s reasonable to assume that recollections change over time, and that we should probably put more weight into statements made closer in time to the incident than decades later.
The other thing to consider is that Rataczak seems to be the most verbose of the crew. The others have been quite reticent in comparison, so Rat’s statements attract more attention. I’d like to compare Rat’s statements with those of the rest of the crew, and see if parallels can be drawn.
To be clear, I’m not trying to discredit Rat. There’s not enough evidence to do so. However, if there WAS evidence that the cloud cover would prevent the crew from seeing the lights of Portland or if another crew member contradicted Rat’s statement, then it’s logical to call some of his previous statements into question.
One thing I do find odd, is that the evidence suggests that the crew wasn’t even sure that DBC had jumped from the plane until it landed in Reno and Anderson investigated. They weren’t even sure if the pressure bump was when Cooper jumped until the sled test in January of the following year. There’s nothing in the radio transcripts where the crew indicated that they thought he had jumped. Still, Rat has stated numerous times that he made the statement “I believe our friend as taken leave of us.” And that he has given precise times (8:11) and distances (28 miles north of Portland) for when Cooper jumped. How is he so sure of those things now when they were a mystery to the crew at the time?
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Again, Rataczak told me something different. 8:13 pm, and he pegs that time to the Big Pressure Bump. R was adamant about the time, too.
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Again, Rataczak told me something different. 8:13 pm, and he pegs that time to the Big Pressure Bump. R was adamant about the time, too.
Yes, he speaks with a great deal of confidence, but there’s no evidence that the crew even knew he jumped let alone when. I think Rat has gained those opinions over the years because he did not seem to have them in 1971.
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There's been some discussion recently about Rat's statement about seeing the "lights of Portland" and that Cooper jumped before then. If the sky was overcast with two cloud layers, how would that affect the crew's ability to see the city lights? Perhaps the city lights would be bright enough to penetrate the cloud cover?
They actually saw the glow from the lights in the Portland/Vancouver area, not the actual lights themselves. The airliner was above two cloud layers plus an overcast. Georger's quaint comments are just Georger's quaint comments. ;)
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There's been some discussion recently about Rat's statement about seeing the "lights of Portland" and that Cooper jumped before then. If the sky was overcast with two cloud layers, how would that affect the crew's ability to see the city lights? Perhaps the city lights would be bright enough to penetrate the cloud cover?
They actually saw the glow from the lights in the Portland/Vancouver area, not the actual lights themselves. The airliner was above two cloud layers plus an overcast. Georger's quaint comments are just Georger's quaint comments. ;)
Georger's quaint comment: is that no discussion of this issue is possible given the current makeup of the CHURCH! Facts are not admissible or relevant. R99 made this a personal issue looking for fame years ago for some reason. R99 apparently thought he would take over the whole Cooper debate by claiming lofty credentials no one else could compete with! It happens in every CHURCH! ;)
The issue has moved to DZ and is being discussed there. New evidence about the topic today: it doesnt take a high credentialed genius to know that! Duhhh!
Do not wait on R99 for any Cooper news. R99 has never been in the news or facts business! :o
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There's been some discussion recently about Rat's statement about seeing the "lights of Portland" and that Cooper jumped before then. If the sky was overcast with two cloud layers, how would that affect the crew's ability to see the city lights? Perhaps the city lights would be bright enough to penetrate the cloud cover?
They actually saw the glow from the lights in the Portland/Vancouver area, not the actual lights themselves. The airliner was above two cloud layers plus an overcast. Georger's quaint comments are just Georger's quaint comments. ;)
Georger's quaint comment: is that no discussion of this issue is possible given the current makeup of the CHURCH! Facts are not admissible or relevant. R99 made this a personal issue looking for fame years ago for some reason. R99 apparently thought he would take over the whole Cooper debate by claiming lofty credentials no one else could compete with! It happens in every CHURCH! ;)
The issue has moved to DZ and is being discussed there. New evidence about the topic today: it doesnt take a high credentialed genius to know that! Duhhh!
Do not wait on R99 for any Cooper news. R99 has never been in the news or facts business! :o
OMG, I have rattled Georger's and Bruce's cages again! How did I do it this time?
How do you fellows explain away the claims reportedly made by some of the flight crew members that they were flying at 10,000 feet in one of the worst storms that they had ever experienced when Cooper jumped? Incidentally, there is no data to support that claim.
The 8:00 PM Portland International Sequence report, which is prepared by trained weather personnel and based on actual observations (which some would call facts), states there was an overcast at 5000 feet and two cloud layers below that.
I don't know what was going on at 10,000 feet but human eyes with 20/20 vision or better are not going to be able to see the lights (meaning light bulbs or individual lights) although they may very well see the glow from a large collection of lights such as the Portland/Vancouver area would produce.
By the way, do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value? And while you are at it, why don't you also list your aeronautical qualifications? That would be educational for the newcomers to this site.
I have been reading a recent book as time permits. I don't have as much free time as you may think. I hope to be finished with it shortly and will post a review of it. But from what I have read to date, neither Georger, Bruce, or Snowmman is going to be happy with my review. Have you fellows have even read the book?
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But from what I have read to date, neither Georger, Bruce, or Snowmman is going to be happy with my review. Have you fellows have even read the book?
I watched some TikTok videos that pretty much covered it, as far as I could tell.
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?
No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?
No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.
Bruce, you can't make any progress if you stay at the starting point. If you want to advance the Cooper investigation then you have to move forward.
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But from what I have read to date, neither Georger, Bruce, or Snowmman is going to be happy with my review. Have you fellows have even read the book?
I watched some TikTok videos that pretty much covered it, as far as I could tell.
Snowmman, your honesty indicates that you may have some redeeming qualities after all. Let's hope you see the light at the end of the tunnel. :)
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?
No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.
Well Bruce if you or anyone else are now pissed off at me for buying Dan Gryder's argument, I really do not care. . The man put together a very solid case compared to most of the others ones I have heard that say some transgender woman did it or some ex jumper. Gryder's case was well thought out, well presented and he has many things on the side of his argument. McCoy is the most solid suspect out there. The FBI agent, Himelbach was a damn fool, and i hate to say that about any deceased person. I asked a question that I am sure Mr Kaye will not answer because I am not celebrity enough for him to do so. IF, the money did go into the water as Gryder states, inside of a parachute or bag, likely no plastic to protect it, could any of it still be intact at the bottom of the River if found after this amount of time? The bag or chutes you would think could survive in part right? I am not a scientist. I need a scientist to answer that question. The money has never turned up in circulation Some math Einstein stated before it would have had to show up. But $20 dollar bills? So the money is either buried, or spent ages ago unoticed (though someone said that is not possible), or its at the bottom of the river if Mr Gryder's theory is correct and he dropped the money . It makes sense given the find at Tena Bar. But McCoy was able to hold on to twice as much on the jump where he was busted. That is the equivalent of 8 gallons of milk. 40 pounds. Not easy. But he did it. So why would he drop half of it? Gryder has challenged the storm data. The weather reports. The FBI looks like the Keystone cops here. Ill stop for now. Let the attacks come and respond later.
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?
No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.
Well Bruce if you or anyone else are now pissed off at me for buying Dan Gryder's argument, I really do not care. . The man put together a very solid case compared to most of the others ones I have heard that say some transgender woman did it or some ex jumper. Gryder's case was well thought out, well presented and he has many things on the side of his argument. McCoy is the most solid suspect out there. The FBI agent, Himelbach was a damn fool, and i hate to say that about any deceased person. I asked a question that I am sure Mr Kaye will not answer because I am not celebrity enough for him to do so. IF, the money did go into the water as Gryder states, inside of a parachute or bag, likely no plastic to protect it, could any of it still be intact at the bottom of the River if found after this amount of time? The bag or chutes you would think could survive in part right? I am not a scientist. I need a scientist to answer that question. The money has never turned up in circulation Some math Einstein stated before it would have had to show up. But $20 dollar bills? So the money is either buried, or spent ages ago unoticed (though someone said that is not possible), or its at the bottom of the river if Mr Gryder's theory is correct and he dropped the money . It makes sense given the find at Tena Bar. But McCoy was able to hold on to twice as much on the jump where he was busted. That is the equivalent of 8 gallons of milk. 40 pounds. Not easy. But he did it. So why would he drop half of it? Gryder has challenged the storm data. The weather reports. The FBI looks like the Keystone cops here. Ill stop for now. Let the attacks come and respond later.
I can't speak for Bruce or anyone else, but I don't think anyone is pissed at you for buying Dan's story. I'm sure you're not alone in that. As far as the money goes, I think McCoys ransom was in larger denominations, so even though it was more money, it weighed less. Bruce can confirm or correct that. As for believing in a particular suspect, I would caution one to look at the reasons a person is not guilty as opposed to the reasons they are guilty. Rule them out. If you can't find reasons to rule them out then perhaps you're on to something. In the case of McCoy, if we are to believe that he was DB Cooper, then we have to believe that a witness that spent several hours with Cooper could not identify him just a few months later. The same for the other witnesses that saw him. That's a big hurdle, in my opinion. We would also have to believe that the elements found on Coopers tie have nothing to do with Cooper himself, another big hurdle.
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?
No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.
Bruce, you can't make any progress if you stay at the starting point. If you want to advance the Cooper investigation then you have to move forward.
I agree.
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?
No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.
Well Bruce if you or anyone else are now pissed off at me for buying Dan Gryder's argument, I really do not care. . The man put together a very solid case compared to most of the others ones I have heard that say some transgender woman did it or some ex jumper. Gryder's case was well thought out, well presented and he has many things on the side of his argument. McCoy is the most solid suspect out there. The FBI agent, Himelbach was a damn fool, and i hate to say that about any deceased person. I asked a question that I am sure Mr Kaye will not answer because I am not celebrity enough for him to do so. IF, the money did go into the water as Gryder states, inside of a parachute or bag, likely no plastic to protect it, could any of it still be intact at the bottom of the River if found after this amount of time? The bag or chutes you would think could survive in part right? I am not a scientist. I need a scientist to answer that question. The money has never turned up in circulation Some math Einstein stated before it would have had to show up. But $20 dollar bills? So the money is either buried, or spent ages ago unoticed (though someone said that is not possible), or its at the bottom of the river if Mr Gryder's theory is correct and he dropped the money . It makes sense given the find at Tena Bar. But McCoy was able to hold on to twice as much on the jump where he was busted. That is the equivalent of 8 gallons of milk. 40 pounds. Not easy. But he did it. So why would he drop half of it? Gryder has challenged the storm data. The weather reports. The FBI looks like the Keystone cops here. Ill stop for now. Let the attacks come and respond later.
I can't speak for Bruce or anyone else, but I don't think anyone is pissed at you for buying Dan's story. I'm sure you're not alone in that. As far as the money goes, I think McCoys ransom was in larger denominations, so even though it was more money, it weighed less. Bruce can confirm or correct that. As for believing in a particular suspect, I would caution one to look at the reasons a person is not guilty as opposed to the reasons they are guilty. Rule them out. If you can't find reasons to rule them out then perhaps you're on to something. In the case of McCoy, if we are to believe that he was DB Cooper, then we have to believe that a witness that spent several hours with Cooper could not identify him just a few months later. The same for the other witnesses that saw him. That's a big hurdle, in my opinion. We would also have to believe that the elements found on Coopers tie have nothing to do with Cooper himself, another big hurdle.
well said! :congrats:
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One of my observations of us Cooper Folk, particularly those of us in our earlier stages of interest in the Norjak saga, tend to wax profusely on a subject that catches our attention at the start. Over time, our enthusiasm becomes tempered, as we see in our Senior Statesmen like Georger, Galen Cook, and Robert99 who have been around this case since the last millennium.
I remember clearly my passion for Barb Dayton in 2008, as she was the first confessee that I encountered, and much of that emotion was fueled by my friendship with Ron and Pat Forman.
Another early passion was MKULTRA and all the guys who though they were DB Cooper. Tina Mucklow was another excitement when I found out that she was living nearby Tina Bar when the money was money by Brian Ingram. I was ecstatic by the sublime coincidence.
Of course, Georger had a field day tearing me a new rectum, but that was another learning....
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...if Mr Gryder's theory is correct and he dropped the money... But McCoy was able to hold on to twice as much on the jump where he was busted. That is the equivalent of 8 gallons of milk. 40 pounds. Not easy. But he did it. So why would he drop half of it?
Sure, if they were simply holding on to the money it would be easy to drop it, especially since you need one hand to pull the ripcord. But if the money was securely tied to them it shouldn't be a problem. I don't know about McCoy's (other?) jump, but Tina saw Cooper tying the money to himself. Look at how much crap some military jumpers take with them. Look at modern tandem jumps. 20 or 40 pounds is nothing. (If the money was tied in such a way as to be trailing behind them, that could cause a problem entangling with the deploying chute, but that's a different discussion.)
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I agree with Parrot, I don't think anyone is pissed at you. I'm not. Just giving you things to consider...
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There's a lot of factors that work against identifying Cooper.
There's a lot of factors that work against a MLB hitter hitting a home run, similarily.
Here's a list of players with than 1000 at bats and no home runs, just looking at players 1946 or later
Mick Kelleher 1972-09-01 1982-10-03 2,869
Neil Berry 1948-04-20 1954-05-11 2,453
Luis Gomez 1974-04-28 1981-10-04 2,253
Ed Crosby 1970-07-12 1976-05-12 1,976
Chad Fonville 1995-04-28 1999-07-09 1,783
Larry Lintz 1973-07-14 1978-05-30 1,581
Eddie O'Brien 1953-04-25 1958-04-19 1,181
Luis Ordaz 1997-09-03 2006-04-03 1,168
Bobby Floyd 1968-09-18 1974-06-24 1,134
Gene Handley 1946-04-16 1947-09-28 1,023
These two were modern-era, with more than 3000 at-bats and no home run
Marty Martinez 1962-05-02 1972-10-04 3,927
Tim Johnson 1973-04-24 1979-09-28 3,428
So where am I going with this? Vietnam War stories, told by Tim Johnson.
The two things are connected (inability to hit home runs, and lying)
Or maybe not.
Just like every connected dot in the Cooper vortex. Maybe. Maybe not.
Vietnam War stories controversy
This [Ed. coaching, later ] success was partly attributed to the stories Johnson would tell his players about his battle experiences in the Vietnam War. For example, he told Hentgen a story about his war experiences to get him to accept a different place in the pitching rotation.
However, in late November, Johnson told several Toronto newspapers that all of these stories were completely made up. In truth, Johnson had been in the Marine Corps reserves throughout the war, and trained mortarmen at Camp Pendleton while playing in the Dodgers' farm system. He'd also claimed for over 20 years that he'd been an All-American high school basketball player, and turned down a scholarship to attend UCLA.
During the 1998 baseball winter meetings, Johnson said that admitting the truth was like having "a 50,000 pound weight" taken off his shoulders. He said he'd lied because he felt guilty about going to spring training with the Dodgers while many of his friends fought in the war. He entered therapy, and called several of his players to apologize for lying.
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... do you fellows accept everything you see in the FBI paperwork at face value?
No, I don't. But federal documents are a starting point for our discussion and investigation.
Well Bruce if you or anyone else are now pissed off at me for buying Dan Gryder's argument, I really do not care. . The man put together a very solid case compared to most of the others ones I have heard that say some transgender woman did it or some ex jumper. Gryder's case was well thought out, well presented and he has many things on the side of his argument. McCoy is the most solid suspect out there. The FBI agent, Himelbach was a damn fool, and i hate to say that about any deceased person. I asked a question that I am sure Mr Kaye will not answer because I am not celebrity enough for him to do so. IF, the money did go into the water as Gryder states, inside of a parachute or bag, likely no plastic to protect it, could any of it still be intact at the bottom of the River if found after this amount of time? The bag or chutes you would think could survive in part right? I am not a scientist. I need a scientist to answer that question. The money has never turned up in circulation Some math Einstein stated before it would have had to show up. But $20 dollar bills? So the money is either buried, or spent ages ago unoticed (though someone said that is not possible), or its at the bottom of the river if Mr Gryder's theory is correct and he dropped the money . It makes sense given the find at Tena Bar. But McCoy was able to hold on to twice as much on the jump where he was busted. That is the equivalent of 8 gallons of milk. 40 pounds. Not easy. But he did it. So why would he drop half of it? Gryder has challenged the storm data. The weather reports. The FBI looks like the Keystone cops here. Ill stop for now. Let the attacks come and respond later.
I can't speak for Bruce or anyone else, but I don't think anyone is pissed at you for buying Dan's story. I'm sure you're not alone in that. As far as the money goes, I think McCoys ransom was in larger denominations, so even though it was more money, it weighed less. Bruce can confirm or correct that. As for believing in a particular suspect, I would caution one to look at the reasons a person is not guilty as opposed to the reasons they are guilty. Rule them out. If you can't find reasons to rule them out then perhaps you're on to something. In the case of McCoy, if we are to believe that he was DB Cooper, then we have to believe that a witness that spent several hours with Cooper could not identify him just a few months later. The same for the other witnesses that saw him. That's a big hurdle, in my opinion. We would also have to believe that the elements found on Coopers tie have nothing to do with Cooper himself, another big hurdle.
First, I cant believe Snowman has not only brought baseball into this but he went do far as to do all of that tedious research on those players. Get a life Snowman. But lets go back to the infernal tie. The damn tie. Man some of you want to hang your hats on this damn tie. Ok they found microscopic traces of titanium on it I have titanium in my back from back surgery. There are many ways it could have gotten there and McCoy could have been around it. Cant say he wasn't. Who knows where McCoy had gone if that were really his tie. Now of course his family I believe very quickly said that it belonged to Richard. Once again, its poor evidence and not real evidence but its another argument that goes in Gryder's favor. Its still a shame they lost or tossed the RALEIGH cigarettes. You know. From Raleigh North Carolina. Where McCoy came from I guess. Mr Gryder has moved Richard Floyd McCoy from being ruled out to to the top of the list once again. IMO. And you will need more than a fast opinion to sway me on this. His daughter gave a far more compelling argument than all of the other's I have heard before. That includes Reca and Christianson and Weber and Smith and on and on.
And about identifying him months later, Tina and Flo could not agree on the sketch from what I had heard and the sketch itself looks just like McCoy. He changed his appearance dramatically in the LA/Denver flight did he not? Dan Cooper, whoever he was, put the sunglass's on fairly quickly after giving the note to Flo, likely realizing he had better do something about his appearance to make it tougher on the cops if he makes it off the plane with the loot. So why did they not put tracking devices on the chutes on flight 305 but did on the flight McCoy eventually gets caught for? I ill say it was very slippery of McCoy to be so smart about everything but so stupid to leave the money, the chutes and all at his damn house 3 days later. Never count out the FBI from finding you. If he had hidden all of that stuff, sure he was still in hot water due to that note, the handwriting sample he messed up on and other things like the fingerprints, another blunder. Those are good arguments against him being Can Cooper who made no real mistaks and maybe he left that tie there on purpose? Who knows. Will we ever know any of this?
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The FBI had to learn how to deal with domestic hijackings. Cooper caught them with there pants down. the typical hijacking was always political. they had a short period of time to get there shit together. beepers, or tracking devices are mentioned in the 302's as something they were not aware of. you have to keep in mind the FBI doesn't know everything, nor do they know how to handle everything. they learn from there mistakes just as anyone else does.
Lots of people seem to use the knowledge of today trying to blend or reason it into the 1970's. leaving the tie would not be a risk in this time period. tracking things down was a long process with limited results. criminals typically don't leave evidence behind on purpose unless they wish to play. most of the time it's done in letters to taunt law enforcement showing them who is in control.
I always wonder how much people would have built up Martin McNally had he not been caught. he was a bottom feeder career criminal who asked a few questions and went to the library to gain knowledge to try and pull off the same crime Cooper did. we might of been reading all sorts of things on McNally's expertise in everything he did to get away when in reality he was nothing but what is mentioned above.
Lots of these suspects were either presented to the witnesses or they had to have been seen on television or on the internet over the last 5 decades. the documentary Tom Colbert did had Tina on the show and other photo's of known suspects were on the table in front of her. all of these known suspects have had lots of exposure with zero results of someone recognizing them, zero.
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First, I cant believe Snowman has not only brought baseball into this but he went do far as to do all of that tedious research on those players. Get a life Snowman. But lets go back to the infernal tie.
This post above sums up the vortex well.
"Get a life Snowmman. But lets go back to the infernal tie" had me laughing out loud.
Also good example of how your thinking is flawed. Why would you think the research was tedious? Obviously you have no idea how the research was done. Speculation.
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First, I cant believe Snowman has not only brought baseball into this but he went do far as to do all of that tedious research on those players. Get a life Snowman. But lets go back to the infernal tie.
This post above sums up the vortex well.
"Get a life Snowmman. But lets go back to the infernal tie" had me laughing out loud.
Also good example of how your thinking is flawed. Why would you think the research was tedious? Obviously you have no idea how the research was done. Speculation.
First, I cant believe Snowman has not only brought baseball into this but he went do far as to do all of that tedious research on those players. Get a life Snowman. But lets go back to the infernal tie.
This post above sums up the vortex well.
"Get a life Snowmman. But lets go back to the infernal tie" had me laughing out loud.
Also good example of how your thinking is flawed. Why would you think the research was tedious? Obviously you have no idea how the research was done. Speculation.
Come on man. If had to take a few minutes. I follow sports 🏈 big time. Huge fan of Bills, Sabres, and in baseball ⚾️ a life long Orioles fan. This place sure gets your blood flowing. An early Merry Christmas to all of you!
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“Get a life Snowmman.”
He has one. I’ve seen it. It’s pretty good. 😉
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Come on man. If had to take a few minutes. I follow sports 🏈 big time. Huge fan of Bills, Sabres, and in baseball ⚾️ a life long Orioles fan. This place sure gets your blood flowing. An early Merry Christmas to all of you!
okay. let's play for keeps.
I'll bet you $5 that it took me less than 5 secs.
And I'll be able to show you that it did and you won't disagree.
Take the bet?
I mean, Cooper played for keeps. Shouldn't DBC forum posters be held to the same standard?
See that post "worked" at many levels. You're caught up in one of it's levels.
The only way to extract yourself is to not answer this post.
What a conundrum!
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Come on man. If had to take a few minutes. I follow sports 🏈 big time. Huge fan of Bills, Sabres, and in baseball ⚾️ a life long Orioles fan. This place sure gets your blood flowing. An early Merry Christmas to all of you!
okay. let's play for keeps.
I'll bet you $5 that it took me less than 5 secs.
And I'll be able to show you that it did and you won't disagree.
Take the bet?
I mean, Cooper played for keeps. Shouldn't DBC forum posters be held to the same standard?
See that post "worked" at many levels. You're caught up in one of it's levels.
The only way to extract yourself is to not answer this post.
What a conundrum!
Seconds to list baseball players that did this or that? Maybe because it was a pretty general stat.
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Or you underestimate the web.
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Or you underestimate the web.
I don't underestimate Richard Floyd McCoy. Or Dan Gryder.
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I don’t underestimate Dan Gryder. He’s an expert pilot and skydiver. I just disagree with his conclusion. I like to think we could again share a few brews and respectfully discuss the case as we did at CC 2021. I still like Dan but wish he’d be more civilized in dealing with his critics.
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Does anyone know the identifiable feature or characteristic of Cooper according to the college student sitting across the aisle from Cooper? It seems I read somewhere he had an unusual feature according to him but not seen this since.
In an interview he gave with the WSHS he referred to Cooper as having a double chin, like a "turkey gobble" if this is what you mean. Believe he said something similar to the FBI back in '71.
Other members here please correct me if I am wrong.
"turkey gobble" referred to a hanging flap or pouch of skin BELOW the person's chin extending to the neck area. It's a poor somewhat confusing phrase to use and the fact they did not include this in the sketches and description is plain stupid and defeating! The logic for withholding this detail, Gray says, was to distinguish fakes from the real Cooper. But how many witnesses included the turkey neck in their descriptions? We will never know. Some did and some didn't? But, either he did have this feature or he didn't! A valid comparison would be to ask: did he have a right arm or didn't he!? It is not a superficial worthless detail! And this debate about it is stupid beyond belief.
The correct term is Turkey Neck not turkey gobble. Did he have a turkey penis? The feature is a layer of subcutaneous fat located below the chin bone at the anterior neck which is covered by sagging or stretched skin, creating a redundancy, making the owner appear as if he/she has a second or third chin or a sagging pouch hanging below the chin which is independent of the neck but which adjoins to the neck.
BTW such features can be associated with aging.
Keep in mind, Mitchell gave a totally different description of Cooper's cloths and dress! Russet red suit jacket. Shabby disheveled appearance as if he had slept in the streets over night. Everyone else seemed to miss these glaring details. The young stud Mitchel says he was pissed the stews were paying ("the old guy") Cooper so much attention while ignoring the young college stud Mitchel - Mitchel confesses. Mitchel says he kept looking over at Cooper and Mucklow etal basically asking: what has this guy got that I dont have ... to get a date! ? The whole thing leaves one wondering just where the hormone driven young stud Mitchel's head was at ... but Gray is quick to pick up on this one lone witnesses' description for all the controversy it can generate ... at the Cooperland horse betting Race Track! :rofl: Where is Gray's head at? :nono:
Of all the suspects so far Mel Wilson's chin-neck looks the most like what Gray is describing? And look at Mel's right ear in this mug shot - what is going on with that!?
Georger. Any idea where to find Gray’s notes on this. “ The logic for withholding this detail, Gray says, was to distinguish fakes from the real Cooper.” did anyone besides Mitchell see this? If he saw it but Tina did not, then that makes me wonder about a few things. Mitchell does not strike me as a guy who lies or embellishes. A fold of skin on a suspect could add some credibility.
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I was looking over Sluggo’s website on the Wayback Machine, and I ran across this odd statement:
“The FBI’s original assumed Drop Zone was re-assessed (in the last 5 years) and has been moved some 17 NM south.”
What is the source of this statement? Who reassessed it? Where is this documented? Is this just Sluggo extrapolating unofficial statements from Larry Carr?
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The 302s discussing the 1975 Pow Wow in San Francisco talk about moving the DZ south to Hochinson, with an exit from 305 over Orchards, WA, which is now a suburb of Vancouver.
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This might be true, Bruce, but Sluggo’s comment refers to “within the last 5 years” which would put the time frame between 2005 and 2010. That’s around the same time Carr was questioning the DZ.
However, Sluggo’s comment makes it seem like official FBI re-evaluation and not a special agent spitballing on a message board.
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Carr was actively talking about a new LZ in that time frame. I know he talked to Galen about the new, southern LZ, and I believe he was in substantive discussions with Sluggo, who was very active in his own investigation at that time. I think Larry was just ruminating on the above-mentioned 302s. I don't think he conducted any new inquiry into the Cooper LZ.
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was just looking to see if ckret had posted anything in 2008 at dz.com about relocating the predicted dropzone
interesting, this post from Carr, talks about his thinking then about how oscillation/pressure bump were conflabulated
https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/55701-d-b-cooper-unsolved-skyjacking/page/58/?tab=comments#comment-2878255
January 26, 2008
I am with you on the oscillation, when i read through the case file it seems as if the "pressure bump" and oscillation were one in the same. For me the finding of the money changes all of that. If there is no logical, verifiable piece of evidence or information that can point to the money ending up where it did by human hands, then it had to get there on its own from the environment.
Since I can't find anything that says it was human, then it had to be environment. Because there is no way the money could have ended up where it did from the original search area, then the original dropzone was calculated wrong.
Therefore, it stands to reason that the crew felt oscillations at 8:12 and the pressure bump a few minutes later. The second officer stated the last contact they had with Cooper was 8:05 and it was 5 to 10 minutes after that they felt the pressure change. I also don't think a trained air crew would mix up terms, an oscillation would be just that and a pressure change would be called a pressure change or bump.
I think where things went wrong was during the testing. For some reason we were not to re-create oscillations only the pressure bump. At this point the terms must have been combined and believed to be one and the same.
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was just looking to see if ckret had posted anything in 2008 at dz.com about relocating the predicted dropzone
interesting, this post from Carr, talks about his thinking then about how oscillation/pressure bump were conflabulated
https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/55701-d-b-cooper-unsolved-skyjacking/page/58/?tab=comments#comment-2878255
January 26, 2008
I am with you on the oscillation, when i read through the case file it seems as if the "pressure bump" and oscillation were one in the same. For me the finding of the money changes all of that. If there is no logical, verifiable piece of evidence or information that can point to the money ending up where it did by human hands, then it had to get there on its own from the environment.
Since I can't find anything that says it was human, then it had to be environment. Because there is no way the money could have ended up where it did from the original search area, then the original dropzone was calculated wrong.
Therefore, it stands to reason that the crew felt oscillations at 8:12 and the pressure bump a few minutes later. The second officer stated the last contact they had with Cooper was 8:05 and it was 5 to 10 minutes after that they felt the pressure change. I also don't think a trained air crew would mix up terms, an oscillation would be just that and a pressure change would be called a pressure change or bump.
I think where things went wrong was during the testing. For some reason we were not to re-create oscillations only the pressure bump. At this point the terms must have been combined and believed to be one and the same.
I have been repeating this for some time now re: the conflation of the oscillations with the bump.
Tangentially, I find it odd that people often point to “8:13” as a jump time. The oscillations were reported at 8:11. If you think the bump occurred after that, then why choose 8:13? Why not 8:14 or 8:15 or 8:16? If you believe that the oscillations and pressure bump are the same thing then the jump should occur when the oscillations were reported at 8:11.
8:13 seems to be a popular time to attribute to his jump, but there doesn’t seem to be a logical reason why. Very arbitrary.
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8:13 logical? Might be, since that's what Rataczak told me - in fact insisted on it.
The real question is: is it correct?
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8:13 logical? Might be, since that's what Rataczak told me - in fact insisted on it.
The real question is: is it correct?
But Rataczak himself reported the “oscillations in the cabin” at 8:11. If you believe that the oscillations = the time Cooper jumped, then that time should be 8:11, not 8:13.
If Rat is correct, and the jump occurred at 8:13 then the official DZ has been too far north from the beginning and Rat said nothing about it. Isn’t that odd?
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I can't speak to the timing, time, or location of these events, but as for the difference, sequence, and cause of them...
It's been my understanding that there were a number of smaller 'oscillations' culminating in a more significant 'pressure bump' at the end. Ostensibly the oscillations would have been caused by Cooper moving down and up the stairs, which would be slower and less pronounced, ending with the bump when Cooper exited, which would be the most sudden and pronounced effect of his weight on the stairs.
That makes aerodynamic sense to me.
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I can't speak to the timing, time, or location of these events, but as for the difference, sequence, and cause of them...
It's been my understanding that there were a number of smaller 'oscillations' culminating in a more significant 'pressure bump' at the end. Ostensibly the oscillations would have been caused by Cooper moving down and up the stairs, which would be slower and less pronounced, ending with the bump when Cooper exited, which would be the most sudden and pronounced effect of his weight on the stairs.
That makes aerodynamic sense to me.
This is how I understand the sequence of events as well.
I find it interesting the while the pressure bump was replicated during the sled test, the oscillations were not. Neither were they felt in copycat crimes. What was Cooper doing with those stairs that no one else did?
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I find it interesting the while the pressure bump was replicated during the sled test, the oscillations were not. Neither were they felt in copycat crimes. What was Cooper doing with those stairs that no one else did?
I don't know about the copycat jumps, but as for the sled test...
I can see Cooper going down the stairs a ways (then back up) a couple times, either to toss stuff out, see if he can tell where he's at, or just to check out how they react. Perhaps the sled test people didn't do that.
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I find it interesting the while the pressure bump was replicated during the sled test, the oscillations were not. Neither were they felt in copycat crimes. What was Cooper doing with those stairs that no one else did?
I don't know about the copycat jumps, but as for the sled test...
I can see Cooper going down the stairs a ways (then back up) a couple times, either to toss stuff out, see if he can tell where he's at, or just to check out how they react. Perhaps the sled test people didn't do that.
The sled test didn’t do a lot of things DM and according to the good doctor Edward’s in his latest book they did things like going into the hydraulic system panel and disabling them making the stairs less stable. How the hell would Cooper have known to do that and why would he. They had plenty of volunteers it’s in the 302’s to do an apples to apples comparison but they took a different route. 🤔
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I find it interesting the while the pressure bump was replicated during the sled test, the oscillations were not. Neither were they felt in copycat crimes. What was Cooper doing with those stairs that no one else did?
I don't know about the copycat jumps, but as for the sled test...
I can see Cooper going down the stairs a ways (then back up) a couple times, either to toss stuff out, see if he can tell where he's at, or just to check out how they react. Perhaps the sled test people didn't do that.
Took the words right out of my mouth.
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...they did things like going into the hydraulic system panel and disabling them making the stairs less stable.
Why would they do that? If the purpose of the test was to replicate the pressure bump to determine if that was in fact when he jumped, why would they change the dynamics of the stairs? Look at the video of the Treat Williams movie, when that guy jumps, the stairs come back up a bit, but slowly and nowhere near a 'slam' that would create a bump. So that says that there might be differences from plane to plane in how they react, possibly due to things like the condition of the hinges, the hydraulic system, and what-not, that would dampen their movement. So if they've got the same plane within a reasonable time, you'd think they'd just leave it as is to keep the conditions the same. I wonder if there had been major maintenance on the system in between. At first I used to think that Cooper pulled the emergency release, which would likely disconnect them from the hydraulic system and allow them to move more freely, but apparently such was not the case.
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The sled test didn’t do a lot of things DM and according to the good doctor Edward’s in his latest book they did things like going into the hydraulic system panel and disabling them making the stairs less stable. How the hell would Cooper have known to do that and why would he. They had plenty of volunteers it’s in the 302’s to do an apples to apples comparison but they took a different route. 🤔
I hadn't seen that before? If they really changed stuff on the stairs, then yeah, isnt the test bogus?
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If you disable the hydraulics the stairs would not retract and would be a bitch to get down, especially with a wind load on them. when the hydraulics fail, you have to pump fluid into the system in order to get them to work.
They wanted Cooper off the plane.
The test was approved by Anderson, a key witness to what happened that evening. he agreed it replicated what happened.
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If you disable the hydraulics the stairs would not retract and would be a bitch to get down, especially with a wind load on them. when the hydraulics fail, you have to pump fluid into the system in order to get them to work.
They wanted Cooper off the plane.
The test was approved by Anderson, a key witness to what happened that evening. he agreed it replicated what happened.
Why would Anderson's approval mean anything?
sure he was in the plane, but he's not an engineer that might have a valid opinion on whether changing anything in the experiment would make the experiment invalid? I use 'invalid" in terms of getting a result that could be used to reasonably predict where Cooper jumped, by replicating the actions of everything that happened the night of Cooper's jump, with the airplane and Cooper.
He's just a witness that experienced a result. Surely he has little qualification for designing experiments in this case (especially if anything was modified compared to what happened when he was a passenger?)
The 727 had unknown behavior. They did an experiment to learn something. They may have learned something...but was it enough to make a statement about where Cooper jumped? Or was it just a random second experiment?
confusing?
EDIT: this is all about the question of whether hydraulics were modified in the sled test. Not about cooper's jump.
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If you disable the hydraulics the stairs would not retract and would be a bitch to get down, especially with a wind load on them. when the hydraulics fail, you have to pump fluid into the system in order to get them to work.
They wanted Cooper off the plane.
The test was approved by Anderson, a key witness to what happened that evening. he agreed it replicated what happened.
It’s important to point out that the bump was replicated according to Anderson, but not the oscillations that occurred prior.
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But, as was discussed earlier and you seemed to agree with, they likely did not replicate the conditions that might have caused the lesser oscillations, i.e. Cooper venturing a bit down and up the stairs.
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IMO, I don't believe Cooper went down and back up the stairs. I think he went down them and jumped just as all the others did after his hijacking. the stairs were partially open and Cooper could of tossed things out the way they were similar to cracking a window and tossing objects out a moving car. it sucks it right out.
Reading the documents tends to say Cooper went down them and jumped. the moment the stairs retracted is what's important and that's was replicated along with a possible time frame.
They speak of the lesser oscillations occurring prior to the 8:10 time frame and after which could of been caused by turbulence they spoke of during the flight. if the needle fluctuates on the gauge he would know the difference from the stairs being down for a moment.
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But, as was discussed earlier and you seemed to agree with, they likely did not replicate the conditions that might have caused the lesser oscillations, i.e. Cooper venturing a bit down and up the stairs.
Agree 100%.
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But, as was discussed earlier and you seemed to agree with, they likely did not replicate the conditions that might have caused the lesser oscillations, i.e. Cooper venturing a bit down and up the stairs.
Agree 100%.
Lesser vs Major vs minor vs Bump-a-lots! THE CULT OF THE OSCILLATIONS VS BUMP-O-RAMA! All started by the cultists at Dropzone. Now being replicated by a few people here. It never ends . . .
People's words being picked to death by over zealous engineers and pseudo-engineers 50 years after the fact. The fact is it is a strategy being used by people who cannot get their way by any other means .... may have nothing to do with the actual events during the hijacking. This crap just never ends ............. :nono:
Until this REVISIONIST crap start what we had was a general agreement the test mission duplicated the basic facts of the hijacking concerning oscillations and a pressure event. Now the NEO REVISIONISTS have split all of this up into a million parts ...... people none of whom were even there! It is as predictably laughable as it is useless and wrong. Maybe the real Cooper was Mahindra Sutra from Deli - who knows! All based on the NEW THEORY of minor vs major oscillations and micro-machions ... detectable by pseudo engineers on some forums in 2022. Who knows maybe the planet is flat after all!
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But, as was discussed earlier and you seemed to agree with, they likely did not replicate the conditions that might have caused the lesser oscillations, i.e. Cooper venturing a bit down and up the stairs.
Agree 100%.
Lesser vs Major vs minor vs Bump-a-lots! THE CULT OF THE OSCILLATIONS VS BUMP-O-RAMA! All started by the cultists at Dropzone. Now being replicated by a few people here. It never ends . . .
People's words being picked to death by over zealous engineers and pseudo-engineers 50 years after the fact. The fact is it is a strategy being used by people who cannot get their way by any other means .... may have nothing to do with the actual events during the hijacking. This crap just never ends ............. :nono:
Until this REVISIONIST crap start what we had was a general agreement the test mission duplicated the basic facts of the hijacking concerning oscillations and a pressure event. Now the NEO REVISIONISTS have split all of this up into a million parts ...... people none of whom were even there! It is as predictably laughable as it is useless and wrong. Maybe the real Cooper was Mahindra Sutra from Deli - who knows! All based on the NEW THEORY of minor vs major oscillations and micro-machions ... detectable by pseudo engineers on some forums in 2022. Who knows maybe the planet is flat after all!
yeah well I can just refute all that with two words: "quantum entanglement"
I am working with a theoretical physicist to write the definitive book on Flight 305.
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But, as was discussed earlier and you seemed to agree with, they likely did not replicate the conditions that might have caused the lesser oscillations, i.e. Cooper venturing a bit down and up the stairs.
Agree 100%.
Lesser vs Major vs minor vs Bump-a-lots! THE CULT OF THE OSCILLATIONS VS BUMP-O-RAMA! All started by the cultists at Dropzone. Now being replicated by a few people here. It never ends . . .
People's words being picked to death by over zealous engineers and pseudo-engineers 50 years after the fact. The fact is it is a strategy being used by people who cannot get their way by any other means .... may have nothing to do with the actual events during the hijacking. This crap just never ends ............. :nono:
Until this REVISIONIST crap start what we had was a general agreement the test mission duplicated the basic facts of the hijacking concerning oscillations and a pressure event. Now the NEO REVISIONISTS have split all of this up into a million parts ...... people none of whom were even there! It is as predictably laughable as it is useless and wrong. Maybe the real Cooper was Mahindra Sutra from Deli - who knows! All based on the NEW THEORY of minor vs major oscillations and micro-machions ... detectable by pseudo engineers on some forums in 2022. Who knows maybe the planet is flat after all!
yeah well I can just refute all that with two words: "quantum entanglement"
I am working with a theoretical physicist to write the definitive book on Flight 305.
Snowmman, who has now admitted that he has not even read Dr. Edwards' book but feels fully qualified to criticize it, is apparently moving on to the quantum world in hopes of explaining a two-bit hijacking that fell through the cracks.
Georger, who is never at a loss for words to criticize "over zealous engineers and pseudo-engineers", is apparently sticking with his theory that the hobos near Tena Bar ended up with the money. It is also a safe bet that Georger has not read Dr. Edwards' book either.
Bruce Smith, who apparently has by today read at least some of Dr. Edwards' book, has criticized the book for not mentioning himself or his own book. Bruce is apparently now trying to ingrate himself with the Seattle UFO community although RMB of DropZone fame is attempting to counter that.
Both Snowmman (who states that he has not read the book) and Bruce Smith have complained that Dr. Edwards' book is difficult to read. Of the people who have written reviews on Amazon or GoodReads, Bruce is apparently the only one who found it difficult to read.
Snowmman, if you are going "to write the definitive book on Flight 305", how about listing your aeronautical qualifications for doing so. To the best of my knowledge, Georger and Bruce Smith don't have any.
FULL DISCLOSURE: I doubt if Snowmman, Georger, or Bruce Smith would know a technical "fact" if it bit them in their butt.
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Robert, have you ever considered that the theory of quantum entanglement suggests that fellows like Snowmman and I could become quantum-ly entangled with you and thereby know everything you know about avionics?
Just a theory, but...
As for my reading Doc Edwards' book, here is the page-by-page analysis of my attentiveness in terms of percentages:
1. Pages read: 100%
2. Pages underlined in red: 90%
3. Pages understood: 60%
4. Pages remembered: 40%
5. Pages accepted as useful 39%
6. Pages accepted as meaningful: 30%
7. Pages considered valuable: 28%
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Robert, have you ever considered that the theory of quantum entanglement suggests that fellows like Snowmman and I could become quantum-ly entangled with you and thereby know everything you know about avionics?
Just a theory, but...
As for my reading Doc Edwards' book, here is the page-by-page analysis of my attentiveness in terms of percentages:
1. Pages read: 100%
2. Pages underlined in red: 90%
3. Pages understood: 60%
4. Pages remembered: 40%
5. Pages accepted as useful 39%
6. Pages accepted as meaningful: 30%
7. Pages considered valuable: 28%
I love that Bruce is being honest here, but it's also a nod to the abuse of numbers (apparently) by Edwards.
I thought about 87% of the characters I typed, in this reponse.
The post has overall readability of 63%
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To be clear, I will criticize all posts on the internet, in any forum, that don't mention me.
Seems like there was some misunderstanding about that.
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To be clear, I will criticize all posts on the internet, in any forum, that don't mention me.
Seems like there was some misunderstanding about that.
Snowmman & Bruce, maybe you fellows need to look for a site that has posts in a simpler language or whatever it is that is "readable" to you.
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To be clear, I will criticize all posts on the internet, in any forum, that don't mention me.
Seems like there was some misunderstanding about that.
Snowmman & Bruce, maybe you fellows need to look for a site that has posts in a simpler language or whatever it is that is "readable" to you.
uh.
I had looked around before landing here.
This was the bottom-of-the-barrel.
There is nothing else.
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To be clear, I will criticize all posts on the internet, in any forum, that don't mention me.
Seems like there was some misunderstanding about that.
Snowmman & Bruce, maybe you fellows need to look for a site that has posts in a simpler language or whatever it is that is "readable" to you.
uh.
I had looked around before landing here.
This was the bottom-of-the-barrel.
There is nothing else.
Weren't you on DZ a few years ago?
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Regarding readability, this forum is Paradise. Eric's Facebook site is like taking a stroll through a briar patch, only to get tangled in salal forest. I can't find a damn thing there except for those brief passages that mention me, or are in an email link that some poster might send me.
As for the DZ, I never go there at all.
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Regarding readability, this forum is Paradise. Eric's Facebook site is like taking a stroll through a briar patch, only to get tangled in salal forest. I can't find a damn thing there except for those brief passages that mention me, or are in an email link that some poster might send me.
As for the DZ, I never go there at all.
0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0 = 0 The salal forest never yields fruit. People keep trying.
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But, as was discussed earlier and you seemed to agree with, they likely did not replicate the conditions that might have caused the lesser oscillations, i.e. Cooper venturing a bit down and up the stairs.
Pictures from the aft stairs test, it looks like a pretty rinky dink operation. You can see what looks to be a guy geared up hanging off the stairs. I don't I understand why they couldn't take N467US to Skylark Airport in Lake Elsinore or Perris Valley Airport in Ca. and take a load up. There would of been a line around the DZ!
(https://i.imgur.com/6vrr39z.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/A2uzjDb.jpg)
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To be clear, I will criticize all posts on the internet, in any forum, that don't mention me.
Seems like there was some misunderstanding about that.
There is no evidence that you can make stick around that assertion.
Plausible deniability. Even Edwards couldn't nail that down.
Snowmman & Bruce, maybe you fellows need to look for a site that has posts in a simpler language or whatever it is that is "readable" to you.
uh.
I had looked around before landing here.
This was the bottom-of-the-barrel.
There is nothing else.
Weren't you on DZ a few years ago?
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You can see what looks to be a guy geared up hanging off the stairs. I don't I understand why they couldn't take N467US to Skylark Airport in Lake Elsinore or Perris Valley Airport in Ca. and take a load up. There would of been a line around the DZ!
You're certainly right about all of that!
I'm surprised to see the guy at the bottom of the stairs. Forgive me for not knowing this, but didn't they do that test out over the ocean? I wonder if they had a contingency for recovering him if he happened to fall off.
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Mabey this has been answered somewhere but I just don't find it.
If the airstairs are hydraulically operated then why would they bounce back up to create the Rataczak pressure bump? I can't find specifics on the 727 airstairs hydraulics, but information available says they are pushed down and drawn back up by two hydraulic cylinders. I operate all kinds of hydraulic equipment and while you can move some without the actual hydraulic pressure being applied it will move very very slowly. I'm just wondering about the whole "bounce" back of the airstairs if that's even possible.
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Three systems are on the 727.. system A-B and a standby system. all are tied together. system A mostly does the flight controls, system B controls the main brakes and aftstairs..I believe they operate at 3000 psi..
The stairs didn't "slam shut" they came up rather slowly due to fighting the hydraulic system. this can be seen in the movie "The Pursuit Of DB Cooper" flight 305 was going about 20 knots faster so the stairs might of retracted a little faster but no much IMO. even coming up slowly would cause disruption that would register on the control panel.
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So the 727 has the std (well ahead of its time really) three hydraulic circuits. That's fine. But the air stairs are hydraulically operated and I'd love to see the hydraulic circuits that control them on paper surely that has to exist somewhere. . I guess i was never convinced this pressure bump was the actual time of departure as I really don't think these stairs can come back up with any force as to produce any noticeable reading by the cockpit or anyone else. They supposedly reproduced this event shortly after is there written recorded evidence to this effect? I dunno...just asking questions......
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The aircraft is air-tight so any disruption will show on the gauge. the stairs almost closed once he left the stairs. the wind load on the stairs was extreme and kept the stairs almost closed until his weight was applied lowering them further putting a greater load on the stairs.
System A was powered by the engines, not sure which one and system B was AC powered, along with the standby system. YouTube has some video on the hydraulics..
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So the 727 has the std (well ahead of its time really) three hydraulic circuits. That's fine. But the air stairs are hydraulically operated and I'd love to see the hydraulic circuits that control them on paper surely that has to exist somewhere. . I guess i was never convinced this pressure bump was the actual time of departure as I really don't think these stairs can come back up with any force as to produce any noticeable reading by the cockpit or anyone else. They supposedly reproduced this event shortly after is there written recorded evidence to this effect? I dunno...just asking questions......
see photos of the sled test which literally show not only the rate/time of the air stair retraction, and how far the stairs in those tests closed. Any change or disruption of cabin pressure for any reason will be noted by the gauge. You can calculate all of these parameters using known distances on the plane. The photos are consecutive frames by a camera with a known shutter rate ...
Does Edward's book cover this?
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It does, but I had just found his book yesterday ;D :rofl:
He says that it could be lowered and locked up to 300knots. He doesn't say it directly but I believe he's trying to say the stairs weren't locked during the sled test and they had to deliberately put them in this unlocked state in order to produce the pressure bump. I'm inclined to preliminarily agree with that, as hydraulic pressure should have zero problem to push those stairs down into the slip stream. Need a Boeing parts book for those hydraulic cylinders to see what their specs are. that exist anywhere?
Another interesting tidbit is I found from a Boeing maint. manual that the 2nd officers panel shows two aft airstairs lights. One is green and illuminates when the airstairs are down and locked. Another is amber and illuminates when the airstairs are not up and locked. Any if the statements or FBI materials mention which light(s) was illuminated?
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It does, but I had just found his book yesterday ;D :rofl:
He says that it could be lowered and locked up to 300knots. He doesn't say it directly but I believe he's trying to say the stairs weren't locked during the sled test and they had to deliberately put them in this unlocked state in order to produce the pressure bump. I'm inclined to preliminarily agree with that, as hydraulic pressure should have zero problem to push those stairs down into the slip stream. Need a Boeing parts book for those hydraulic cylinders to see what their specs are. that exist anywhere?
None of this changes the fact Cooper lowered the stairs and bailed during the time period ... the evidence is overwhelming regardless of the mechanics of the stairs.
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None of this changes the fact Cooper lowered the stairs and bailed during the time period ... the evidence is overwhelming regardless of the mechanics of the stairs.
Nobody is disputing he lowered the stairs and bailed. Just questioning if the stairs were actually locked and the viability of a locked staircase bouncing back up. If the pressure bump was produced by something else, the time of bailing could possibly be completely unknown. How about that rear cabin door leading to the aft stairs, could that create a pressure change reading. Was that door already opened from the ground for the test? Did the sled test crew have to improvise to put these stairs in a somewhat difficult to attain unlocked position in order to get the stairs to bounce? Is there a light for that rear door on the 2nd officers station like the airstairs themselves? I'm just curious to dig some more and see exactly how those stairs and door work. I'm also with Edwards on wishing to see the sled test full report and how it was setup.
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The stairs were never in a locked position. the crew states this as well as the stairs dragging on the taxi after landing. the stairs would more than likely be damage if in the locked position during a landing. as the plane slowed down on landing the stairs slowly came down and then caused some sparks from hitting pavement.
It's pretty simple. the stairs were engineered to open and close on the ground. they were designed to handle the weight of the stairs and not much more.
You will notice when the stairs were released and when they close. there is nowhere for the air to go since the plane is sealed except for the opening of the stairs.
The first sled test was done with someone on the stairs and Anderson reported the test did not replicate what happened on the night of the hijacking. the second test was done and they used rope to lower the sled down and release sled. Anderson reported that it was "identical" to what happened on the evening of the hijacking.
The first test had someone on the stairs which didn't allow the stairs to retract much. the second test left nothing on the stairs and they were able to retract easier and cause the "violent readings" to occur.
On YouTube type in Boeing 727 rear stairs and a video will show the operation of the stairs, including the lights on the engineers panel.
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So why would the stairs not have been locked? The handle is two positions down and up. If you put it in the down position it should lock. So you must be saying the hydraulics are not enough to push the stairs all the way down into a locked position during flight. There's a video by MentourPilot on youboob and he explains some 727 mechanics used the stairs as an anti tipping device during certain loading operations or when messing with stuff on the tail. SO in a locked position they shouldn't move. He also says the pilots pre-flight use to include ensuring the arms on the stairs were all the way down and locked kinda implying sometimes they didn't lock even on the ground so I suppose getting to a locked position may not be easy to attain during flight, but Boeing says stairs can be "deployed" up to 300kts.
So your saying Anderson said only the amber stairs not up & locked light was on and NOT the green stairs down and locked? If he stated exactly which lights were on somewhere that would explain alot.
The rear cabin door is the pressure sealer, even though the plane was unpressurized I imagine some slight difference of pressure still happens and opening of this door during flight could create a pressure reading as well. I'd like to see more detail on the stairs mechanics and specs for the cylinders.
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Several things.....
The 727 is not centered gravity wise when empty, yes, the stairs hold up the plane. They also use a pole when the stairs are up or inoperable. it just keeps the plane level while on the ground. reason, when the plane is empty the engines weight is greater in the back vs the front so it will tip with little weight change inside.
The stairs will not lock due to the wind load on them, or all the hijackers would of jumped from a locked position. the stairs were NEVER in the locked position. the crew would have to go to the back to retract them for landing. it just never happened.
The amber light on the engineers panel tells you the stairs are not locked. the green light tells you they are in the locked position. 305 never got a green light.
Pressure will register on the gauge, these gauges are used to pressurize the plane. they are very sensitive. you have a sealed tube, basically, any disruption will register. it's not much different than closing a door in the house and the curtains move. once air is introduced to a sealed area, disruption will occur. open the car door at 10 mph and then at 90 and watch the difference wind loads create. several thousand lbs will be pushing the stairs...
One of my trucks has a camper top on it. the actuators have a load capacity of 60 lbs. while on the highway they come down to almost level due to the wind load on them. it is what it is..
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Several things.....
The 727 is not centered gravity wise when empty, yes, the stairs hold up the plane. They also use a pole when the stairs are up or inoperable. it just keeps the plane level while on the ground. reason, when the plane is empty the engines weight is greater in the back vs the front so it will tip with little weight change inside.
The stairs will not lock due to the wind load on them, or all the hijackers would of jumped from a locked position. the stairs were NEVER in the locked position. the crew would have to go to the back to retract them for landing. it just never happened.
The amber light on the engineers panel tells you the stairs are not locked. the green light tells you they are in the locked position. 305 never got a green light.
Pressure will register on the gauge, these gauges are used to pressurize the plane. they are very sensitive. you have a sealed tube, basically, any disruption will register. it's not much different than closing a door in the house and the curtains move. once air is introduced to a sealed area, disruption will occur. open the car door at 10 mph and then at 90 and watch the difference wind loads create. several thousand lbs will be pushing the stairs...
One of my trucks has a camper top on it. the actuators have a load capacity of 60 lbs. while on the highway they come down to almost level due to the wind load on them. it is what it is..
well put, comprehensive . . . . .
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During the part of the sled test where one of the testers walked down the stairs and stood there, was it confirmed that the pressure gauge in the cockpit fluctuated?
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I have a query regarding the 'instructions' that Tina offered to Cooper regarding the parachutes.
Is there any concrete evidence available as to what these instructions were ?
Are they general 'How to use a chute'. Or are they specific details that go with the modified Cossey chute?
In the latter case, it can only be Hayden who supplied them, as he's the only one that would know about the modified chute at that time. In which case he would be very familiar with them, as he's the one that would need to know being the chute user, unless of course he dumps it on his passenger in an emergency and says "Read these before you jump".
So far i've seen nothing that mentions Hayden saying anything about this, surely he would have mentioned it?
And where is that note, what happened to it?.
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Yo, TT, sounds like your mind is spinning into a tizzy over the parachutes.
As far as I know, there were no modified chutes. That is an artifact of the Cossey narrative, which I believe has been proven to be false in its entirety. I think the two found packing cards - one on 305 that was retrieved in Reno, and the second that was photographed by yours truly when I interviewed Norman in 2011 - establish that Hayden supplied two Pioneer/Steinthal 26-foot conical canopies. Hence, everything from Coss is canard.
As for the informational piece of paper that is reported, I have no idea where it is.
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Yo, TT, sounds like your mind is spinning into a tizzy over the parachutes.
As far as I know, there were no modified chutes. That is an artifact of the Cossey narrative, which I believe has been proven to be false in its entirety. I think the two found packing cards - one on 305 that was retrieved in Reno, and the second that was photographed by yours truly when I interviewed Norman in 2011 - establish that Hayden supplied two Pioneer/Steinthal 26-foot conical canopies. Hence, everything from Coss is canard.
As for the informational piece of paper that is reported, I have no idea where it is.
Let me add a couple of things to Bruce's comments.
Hayden reportedly told Bruce that the two backpack parachutes that he provided in the Cooper hijacking were identical. However, the Hayden backpack that was found on the airliner at Reno does not have a 26-foot conical canopy. The canopy in that backpack is too bulky to be a 26-foot conical and the harness, container, and pilot chute are definitely not those that are normally associated with the 26-foot conical. It is undoubtedly a 28-foot canopy in that backpack and in all probability in the backpack that Cooper used.
Bruce has definitely put Cossey on the right peg. Everything Cossey has said is bullshit. Ignore him.
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Thanks guys. I must admit i'm struggling to see how within 24hrs Cossey seemed to know everything about the chutes, when he wasn't the one that supplied them.
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Coss was a sly fox...
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Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:
What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?
The money and parachutes would have arrived at precisely 5:00. Fueling would have proceeded without delay.
The plane would have taken off at approximately 5:30. Airstairs down on takeoff? Or lowered in flight? If airstairs down at takeoff, then Cooper likely would have jumped 15 minutes after takeoff at 5:45. If the airstairs were to be lowered in flight, he expected it to be easy to do. His inability to lower airstairs properly delayed him about 10 minutes. So, if the airstairs were to be lowered after takeoff, then he would have jumped closer to 6:00pm
Sunset on that date was at 4:33pm. Even at 6:00 pm there would be enough light to see, but once he hit the ground, it would darken. That was likely his plan. To be off the plane while still light enough to see, but with night quickly approaching so he could disappear in the darkness.
If he jumped at 5:45, he would have jumped in the vicinity of Spanaway on the outskirts of Seattle an and the dropzone would have been near South Hill also in the Seattle suburbs.
If he jumped closer to 6:00 pm, he would have jumped about 5 or 6 miles north of Etna, WA and the dropzone would be about 5 miles north or Ariel. That area is pretty rugged and remote.
This obviously uses very broad approximations and a lot of speculation, but I think it’s a thought-provoking exercise. Therefore, you can’t draw any decent conclusions from it, but it would seem that it would have been better for Cooper to have the stairs down on takeoff as it would have resulted in a landing closer to civilization.
Fact check me, my times might be wrong.
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Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:
What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?
The money and parachutes would have arrived at precisely 5:00. Fueling would have proceeded without delay.
The plane would have taken off at approximately 5:30. Airstairs down on takeoff? Or lowered in flight? If airstairs down at takeoff, then Cooper likely would have jumped 15 minutes after takeoff at 5:45. If the airstairs were to be lowered in flight, he expected it to be easy to do. His inability to lower airstairs properly delayed him about 10 minutes. So, if the airstairs were to be lowered after takeoff, then he would have jumped closer to 6:00pm
Sunset on that date was at 4:33pm. Even at 6:00 pm there would be enough light to see, but once he hit the ground, it would darken. That was likely his plan. To be off the plane while still light enough to see, but with night quickly approaching so he could disappear in the darkness.
If he jumped at 5:45, he would have jumped in the vicinity of Spanaway on the outskirts of Seattle an and the dropzone would have been near South Hill also in the Seattle suburbs.
If he jumped closer to 6:00 pm, he would have jumped about 5 or 6 miles north of Etna, WA and the dropzone would be about 5 miles north or Ariel. That area is pretty rugged and remote.
This obviously uses very broad approximations and a lot of speculation, but I think it’s a thought-provoking exercise. Therefore, you can’t draw any decent conclusions from it, but it would seem that it would have been better for Cooper to have the stairs down on takeoff as it would have resulted in a landing closer to civilization.
Fact check me, my times might be wrong.
Here is an additional assumption. Assume that the airliner could climb to 10,000 feet as fast as it normally would and it would be at that altitude in 5 to 10 minutes after takeoff.
Another fact to consider. With sunset at 4:33 PM or so, with low cloud layers plus an overcast at about 5000 feet, and if it was raining on the airliner in the Seattle area at that time there would be more clouds above the airliner, then it would be essentially pitch black where the airliner was flying. The only illumination exterior to the airliner would be from the glow of the Seattle area lights through the clouds and overcast below the airliner. And as the airliner moved out of the Seattle area and over the mountains and forests, there would not be any illumination below the airliner.
Even if Cooper jumped at 5:30 PM, everything below him would be dark.
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Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:
What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?
The money and parachutes would have arrived at precisely 5:00. Fueling would have proceeded without delay.
The plane would have taken off at approximately 5:30. Airstairs down on takeoff? Or lowered in flight? If airstairs down at takeoff, then Cooper likely would have jumped 15 minutes after takeoff at 5:45. If the airstairs were to be lowered in flight, he expected it to be easy to do. His inability to lower airstairs properly delayed him about 10 minutes. So, if the airstairs were to be lowered after takeoff, then he would have jumped closer to 6:00pm
Sunset on that date was at 4:33pm. Even at 6:00 pm there would be enough light to see, but once he hit the ground, it would darken. That was likely his plan. To be off the plane while still light enough to see, but with night quickly approaching so he could disappear in the darkness.
If he jumped at 5:45, he would have jumped in the vicinity of Spanaway on the outskirts of Seattle an and the dropzone would have been near South Hill also in the Seattle suburbs.
If he jumped closer to 6:00 pm, he would have jumped about 5 or 6 miles north of Etna, WA and the dropzone would be about 5 miles north or Ariel. That area is pretty rugged and remote.
This obviously uses very broad approximations and a lot of speculation, but I think it’s a thought-provoking exercise. Therefore, you can’t draw any decent conclusions from it, but it would seem that it would have been better for Cooper to have the stairs down on takeoff as it would have resulted in a landing closer to civilization.
Fact check me, my times might be wrong.
Here is an additional assumption. Assume that the airliner could climb to 10,000 feet as fast as it normally would and it would be at that altitude in 5 to 10 minutes after takeoff.
Another fact to consider. With sunset at 4:33 PM or so, with low cloud layers plus an overcast at about 5000 feet, and if it was raining on the airliner in the Seattle area at that time there would be more clouds above the airliner, then it would be essentially pitch black where the airliner was flying. The only illumination exterior to the airliner would be from the glow of the Seattle area lights through the clouds and overcast below the airliner. And as the airliner moved out of the Seattle area and over the mountains and forests, there would not be any illumination below the airliner.
Even if Cooper jumped at 5:30 PM, everything below him would be dark.
It does not appear that jumping with any natural light was ever part of Cooper's plan. That says something, which of course is open to all of our objective and subjective speculations.
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Even when the sun sets, there is still some light remaining. It doesn't instantly get dark. Check the time for sunset in your area and see how long afterward it gets fully dark.
That said, R99 is correct that the clouds and rain would certainly block the light to a degree and make visibility more difficult.
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Not sure where to pose this question? Maybe the flight path thread? Has there been any discussion, in the past, concerning the Sage radar system? How much do we know about it? Could the elevation of flight 305 have possibly been a problem for the system? Any reference to resource material for the Sage system would be appreciated.
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Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:
What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?
A fascinating thought process. Should we consider 'hoped for' as opposed to anticipated? He seemed reasonably comfortable with changes in the plan and may well have anticipated a number of possible changes to the plan as things progressed.
Would there have been any issues jumping out of an ascending aircraft? If the steps had been lowered prior to take off would they have been in a locked position?
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He seemed reasonably comfortable with changes in the plan and may well have anticipated a number of possible changes to the plan as things progressed.
That might indicate jumping and/or military experience. I think in both circumstances it is standard to pre-plan for all possible contingencies.
Would there have been any issues jumping out of an ascending aircraft?
Depends on the aircraft. In smaller aircraft, jumping out of a side door, if it's in a climbing attitude it could increase the chances of striking the tail. Coming out of the rear stairs of that jet would not present that problem. However, a climbing aircraft is under more power and has more speed, and that can be a problem. Especially in that jet, he would want that thing slowed down as much as possible, which would mean level flight, and was the reason he asked for flaps and gear down.
If the steps had been lowered prior to take off would they have been in a locked position?
Those steps down and locked were designed to support the tail of that aircraft. With all the engines on the tail, it was tail-heavy and could tip back while being boarded. So if the stairs were locked down, it would prevent the plane from rotating properly for takeoff, and could cause it to crash.
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Thought this might be a fun thought exercise:
What would have the Cooper hijacking looked like had Cooper’s plan worked exactly as he had anticipated?
A fascinating thought process. Should we consider 'hoped for' as opposed to anticipated? He seemed reasonably comfortable with changes in the plan and may well have anticipated a number of possible changes to the plan as things progressed.
Would there have been any issues jumping out of an ascending aircraft? If the steps had been lowered prior to take off would they have been in a locked position?
Jumping from a 727 that was climbing or descending would not be a problem.
If the aft stairs were down and locked, there would probably be a problem in taking off depending on the flap setting. The pilots might not have sufficient longitudinal control power to crush the aft stairs and rotate the aircraft to the angle of attack necessary to take off. And the required angle of attack depends on the leading edge device settings and the trailing edge flap settings.
If the aft stairs were down and not locked, there would not be any problem taking off. The aft stairs would be off the pavement within one or two hundred feet of the start of the take-off roll due to both the dynamic and aerodynamic forces on it.
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I just wonder how much has the real DB Cooper taken from all of you? You know, money, time spent chasing a ghost? Its the case that keeps on giving and keeps on taking away at the same time. Now Bruce has had enough and is " riding off into the sunset". I admire him for doing that. Its tough to walk away from a passion like this. But I am sure he will keep one eye peeled on the case unless its ever truly solved. Good luck Bruce!
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I just wonder how much has the real DB Cooper taken from all of you? You know, money, time spent chasing a ghost? Its the case that keeps on giving and keeps on taking away at the same time.
Great question. I'm totally going to steal that one!
Personally I'd say DB Cooper has taken about $3500 from me, and countless hours. That includes hosting fees, travel for interviews/CooperCon, and over 40 books. For most I imagine its quite a bit less. In the positive column, I've made $100, got a few free books, a few free trips, and made a lot of friends.
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Seeing that the jets were scrambled during the Cooper hijacking, makes you wonder why the 9/11 hijackers were not intercepted.
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I just wonder how much has the real DB Cooper taken from all of you? You know, money, time spent chasing a ghost? Its the case that keeps on giving and keeps on taking away at the same time.
Great question. I'm totally going to steal that one!
Personally I'd say DB Cooper has taken about $3500 from me, and countless hours. That includes hosting fees, travel for interviews/CooperCon, and over 40 books. For most I imagine its quite a bit less. In the positive column, I've made $100, got a few free books, a few free trips, and made a lot of friends.
I'd say the friends part is priceless. But you also had fun doing it. It sure looks like this one is going to go down with some of the other great unsolved mysteries and the exception is there is nobody that winds up dead in this one. Of course there is a good part of me that still believes that Richard McCoy was DB Cooper but I certainly cant prove it and there is no real proof out there. Now I saw another theory, another dead guy that EU thinks was Cooper. He is still investigating it. The guy does not look like him IMO. If he was one of the known suspects my money is on McCoy. But of course he could be someone they have never found. I highly doubt the real Cooper is alive
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I know that DB Cooper has become somewhat of an iconic personality but we seem to be losing sight of the fact that this man was in fact a criminal. If you hijacked a plane today you would most likely be considered a terrorist.
And to those who believe this was a victimless crime, please wake up. The people who endured those hours with Cooper were to become emotionally traumatized individuals.
The thoughts of a man holding a bomb that could blow up the plane your on in mid flight and kill you would become nightmares for these people for years if not a lifetime.
I watched the clip of Bill Mitchell from this year's CooperCon, when he was describing his time on the plane and when he got to the part where he had to mention the word bomb, you could clearly see he had emotional struggles with reliving those moments.
He and the others, like Flo and Tina and the pilot crew did not know if they would live or die that night. That is something one doesn't really ever get over especially in an era where seeing a therapist was more or less a taboo subject.
It's true that Bill didn't know about the bomb till afterwards, but the emotional results are the same when he did find out because he was right there watching the guy.
Yes this is an interesting case because Cooper has never been publicly identified but I think that all the hoopla people are giving Cooper, (mostly on the other site) like it's DB Cooper day, is a disservice to the emotional trauma his victims endured that night and for every night and year after that.
This is all just my own opinion.
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I know that DB Cooper has become somewhat of an iconic personality but we seem to be losing sight of the fact that this man was in fact a criminal. If you hijacked a plane today you would most likely be considered a terrorist.
And to those who believe this was a victimless crime, please wake up. The people who endured those hours with Cooper were to become emotionally traumatized individuals.
The thoughts of a man holding a bomb that could blow up the plane your on in mid flight and kill you would become nightmares for these people for years if not a lifetime.
I watched the clip of Bill Mitchell from this year's CooperCon, when he was describing his time on the plane and when he got to the part where he had to mention the word bomb, you could clearly see he had emotional struggles with reliving those moments.
He and the others, like Flo and Tina and the pilot crew did not know if they would live or die that night. That is something one doesn't really ever get over especially in an era where seeing a therapist was more or less a taboo subject.
It's true that Bill didn't know about the bomb till afterwards, but the emotional results are the same when he did find out because he was right there watching the guy.
Yes this is an interesting case because Cooper has never been publicly identified but I think that all the hoopla people are giving Cooper, (mostly on the other site) like it's DB Cooper day, is a disservice to the emotional trauma his victims endured that night and for every night and year after that.
This is all just my own opinion.
A lot of us agree with you, Cooper was first and foremost a criminal.
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Cossey stated that there was a skydiver staying in the loft the night of the skyjacking. This was supposedly the person who handed the front reserve chutes (one of these being the training chute) to law enforcement ? Does anyone have any idea who this might have been? Did Cossey or law enforcement ever mention a name? Would this person have been a student? Was it a common practice for people to stay overnight there? Was this person ever interviewed by authorities?
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Cossey stated that there was a skydiver staying in the loft the night of the skyjacking. This was supposedly the person who handed the front reserve chutes (one of these being the training chute) to law enforcement ? Does anyone have any idea who this might have been? Did Cossey or law enforcement ever mention a name? Would this person have been a student? Was it a common practice for people to stay overnight there? Was this person ever interviewed by authorities?
If Cossey is the only source for that, I would question it's validity.
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Cossey stated that there was a skydiver staying in the loft the night of the skyjacking. This was supposedly the person who handed the front reserve chutes (one of these being the training chute) to law enforcement ? Does anyone have any idea who this might have been? Did Cossey or law enforcement ever mention a name? Would this person have been a student? Was it a common practice for people to stay overnight there? Was this person ever interviewed by authorities?
I don't know the specific answers to your questions, but I can say that it is not unusual for people to 'reside' at a drop zone. Much as there are ski bums and beach bums, there are dz bums. Many dz's have a version of a tent city, and someone staying in the loft wouldn't be unusual. Not likely a student, unless they came from far away and were staying to go through the training program. More likely a younger regular jumper, perhaps a full-time instructor, or someone who packs the student rigs.
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Not really sure if Cossey is the only source of this? I have seen it mentioned many times, mostly in news articles I think? Not sure if it was ever mentioned in any of the F.B.I.'s documents? An instructor staying in the loft would make sense. I take it that the dropzone was open that day for either jumps or training? Wouldn't it be a possibility that this same person packed the traiining chute ? Might he have packed something extra inside the training chute? Personally I don't normally get into the conspiracy theories, Hager on the other hand, didn't mind jumping into one every now and then. Lol. I don't believe there is anything to this but thought the possibility should be tossed around.
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we had been looking for this. I randomly was looking at fbi file 71 and on page 333 there it was
There is a lot of detail in the test. Way more than the FBI test ...the exact details of how the door and stairs were managed.
"A Pulse Duration Modulation (PCM) magnetic tape system and a photorecorder were used to record performance and calibrated data. Airspeed and altitude were measure using the pilots' production pitot-static system. The aft airstair was instrumented to measure position in degrees from the up and locked position. The static pressure in Section 48 was measured by a pick-up that was located on the LR side of the airplane, outboard of the LH cavity side panels. Airplane cabin pressure and rate of climb were recorded on the photorecorders"
They include pictuires of airstair extended with and without hydraulic power, on pages 340 and 341
Flight Test Summary Report Commercial Transport Model 727-22
Test Item Title "Flight Characteristics with Aft Airstair Down - B"
Prepared by C.M. Clark 5-6-64
What's nice is it gives detail on the dates, documentation, airplane etc. Gives detail on the nose trim with stairs extended. Hydraulics extended the stair to 13.5 degrees. "No excessive cabin pressure transients were noted with the aft entry door open and the stair extended". "125 knots and flaps at 25 degrees"
Very interesting to see the full report. I ocr'ed the summary and references, but the whole thing is interesting
detail on the document received 6/1/72 from Boeing and written up on 8/3/72 by FBI, has names of people investigated as a result of the document. (some redacted)...it all starts on page 332 of file 71
Interesting they did free-fall test of the stair, and hydraulic assisted. So the stairs did have some hydraulic assist, at least on the airplane in this test?
23 pages
References 5 other documents with details around the test
SUMMARY
This report presents the results of tests conducted on the Model 727 airplane to evaluate the characteristics of the aft airstair when extended inflight and the associated effects on airplane performance and handling.
The airstair was extended both by allowing it to freefall and by utilizing normal hydraulic power.
These extensions were made with the airplane trimmed for level flight at 125 knots and flaps at 25 degrees.
The airstair extended a nominal 8.5 degrees when allowed to free-fall and it required only approximately one-tenth unit of nose-down trim to compensate for the stalr.
The stair extended a nominal 13.5 degrees with hydraulic power and this caused approximately a three-tenth unit nose-down trim change.
The airplane was also accelerated to Vmo with fleps up and the airstair free-floating.
The airstair was quite stable when it was down and no airplane control problems were experienced.
No excessive cabin pressure transients were noted with the aft entry door open and the stair extended.
The environment near the aft entry door allowed it to be safely opened and the stair retracted at speeds up to 300 knots.
At 300 knots, it was also found that the airstair would not free-fall when unlatched.
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some of the tabulated data
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The timing of the test in 1964 is interesting.
Braden entered Vietnam in 1964 with Special Forces Project Delta. That's when he was teaching? some HALO
the official us navy seals site has some mention of those days
https://www.usni.org/magazines/naval-history-magazine/2000/october/seals-trail
[RT] Colorado was also unique because of its team leader, Ted Braden. Among the many larger-than-life characters in the program, Braden was a complete enigma. Formerly an active-duty commissioned officer from the Army Reserve, he had arrived in South Vietnam in late 1965 as part of the second increment of special forces noncommissioned officers slated for the cross-border teams. At times, he was a quiet, almost professorial model, walking around camp in a sweater and puffing on a pipe. At other times, however, Braden displayed uncontrollable rage. “He punched a Vietnamese lieutenant in Kontum,” said Hetrick, “and was banished to Dak To.”
There, troubles followed. After a tense exchange with Lieutenant Colonel Arthur “Bull” Simons, one of the senior SOG planners, Braden was punished by having Colorado’s intended long-term unconventional mission scrubbed. Instead, Colorado would be tasked with reconnaissance missions like any other Shining Brass team.
Despite such outbursts, there was no denying Braden was something of a pioneer. “He had the idea of mixing different ethnic groups in a single team in order to foster competition,” noted Hetrick. Braden also had his team train in native civilian garb. After this led to protests from SOG superiors—who apparently disliked the complete departure from military norms—he then became the first SOG team leader to have his men wear combat fatigues dyed black, reflecting existing Vietcong apparel.
Perhaps the most mysterious aspect about Braden was his close ties to the CIA. “He spent a lot of time with the agency representatives in Saigon,” noted Shattuck, who joined the team in the fall of 1966. “We were told not to ask questions when he was gone for a week at a time.”
Not only did Braden go missing for extended periods, but he would return from his CIA trysts with cutting- edge hardware. “We were the first SOG team to get a Starlight scope (an early-model night-vision device) and a wiretapping kit,” said team member James “J. D.” Bath. Braden also procured a seismometer to test its applicability for use in conjunction with the automatic detonation of Claymore mines.
After a single in-country reconnaissance mission at the behest of the U.S. Marine Corps during the second half of September—which turned up no evidence of an NVA presence—Colorado was ready for its first major outing in early October.
A few days before its scheduled infiltration, the team gathered at the SOG compound in Phu Bai, the town north of Danang. To ease tension, Braden arranged for a tour of the nearby ancient imperial capital of Hue. Halfway to their destination, however, their truck ran into a Vietcong ambush. Careening off the road into a ditch, the team jumped from the vehicle and hugged the rise formed by a railroad track running parallel to the road.
Noticeably cool under pressure, Braden leapt to his feet, carbine in hand. Urging his teammates to fire, he sprinted ahead across a rice paddy toward the source of the ambush in a neighboring village. When it soon became apparent that the enemy weapons had fallen silent and the Vietcong had fled, the other Americans followed. Before reaching the village, however, they came across a body wearing the uniform of the South Vietnamese Regional Forces militia. The corpse was face down in the paddy, a bullet hole at the base of the skull.
When they finally arrived in the village, their team leader was interrogating the locals and made no mention of the dead militiaman. Already, U.S. Marine reinforcements had arrived and brought the situation under hand. Braden, however, apparently was still on an adrenaline high. When the team suggested they return to Phu Bai before nightfall, he waved his weapon and labeled them cowards, then commandeered a bus for Hue.
By the time the team regrouped at Phu Bai, a cloud already was starting to form over the execution of the South Vietnamese militiaman. While it was apparent that Braden would face some kind of disciplinary hearing, it was decided to go ahead with the scheduled mission. For this, they would be equipped with both the Starlight scope and a West German-made wiretap—both firsts for the Shining Brass program. Their target was the extreme western edge of the Demilitarized Zone, just inside the Laos-Vietnam border.
In keeping with plans, Colorado would not be the only team to be deployed in that vicinity. Seven kilometers south of the intended landing zone, a second SOG spike team, Arizona, was gearing for a simultaneous infiltration. Richard Ray—who previously had accompanied Ohio on a single mission—was originally scheduled to accompany Arizona on this outing. Two days earlier, however, he contracted malaria and was convalescing at the SEAL compound on the Son Tra peninsula. Five Vietnamese members of the team also remained behind, giving Team Arizona a light complement of just three Americans and four indigenous commandos.
Late on 2 October, both spike teams headed for the forward SOG launch site at Khe Sanh. The next morning, Colorado departed first aboard South Vietnamese-piloted H-34 choppers. Already thick with tension, the team focused on Braden with added concern. “He was carrying very little ammunition,” recalls Shattuck, “and we feared he had no intention of coming back.”
According to the original plan, they were supposed to install the wiretap, then pull back three kilometers and wait for a B-52 bomber strike before recovering the tapes. After further consideration, however, the planners felt it was not worth the risk of detection to have the team move three kilometers. Revising their plan, then, the B-52 strike went in first, immediately followed by the team’s insertion.
Once they landed, the situation intensified. In short order, Colorado located a suitable telephone cable running along the slope overlooking the Houei Nam Se River from the north. The entire valley, they found, was crawling with North Vietnamese troops, who had carved steps into both slopes and even had a simple ferry shuttling supplies across the river.
The heavy NVA presence extended all the way to Arizona’s area of operations, this entire pocket of Laos essentially having been annexed and treated as territorial North Vietnam since December 1958. Almost as soon as this second team landed to the south, it was in deep trouble. “We made contact with the NVA next to the landing zone,” said ethnic Chinese team member Tran Hung Quang. Pleas from the U.S. radioman came over the airwaves, followed by an eerie silence. One member managed to escape and return to friendly lines. Tran and one other ethnic Chinese were captured the following morning; the remainder of the team, including the three Green Berets, were listed as missing and presumed dead.
Colorado was more fortunate. Remaining sheltered in a bomb crater near the summit of the slope, the team waited patiently until sundown. Intending to use their Starlight scope, they unpacked the device and aimed it along the river. To their disappointment, however, the scope refused to work. Not wanting to be burdened with broken gear, Braden buried the night vision device on the spot. “We later caught hell for not bringing it home,” said Bath.
The team had better luck with the wiretap, which it managed to install without complications. Waiting nearby for the tapes to record several hours of telephone traffic, Colorado then recovered the device and was successfully exfiltrated by chopper.
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I read an extended description of Al Tyre's reconnect with Ted in the famous truckstop breakfast in 1973
I hadn't noticed this before
"During the encounter in the service area in 1973, Tyre and Ted had breakfast together. Ted also asked him if he had followed the DB Cooper hijacking case. Tyre said he hadn't."
wonder if that's true.
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robert edwards commentary on the details of the boeing air stairs tests is reasonable, and here:
with discussion about hydraulics
https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/22614166-d-b-cooper-the-boeing-test-flights
also a later update
https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/22816356-d-b-cooper-and-flight-305-the-boeing-tests
this second post has images showing oscillations in airplane altitude. I think he made the graphs from the data in the fbi files?
Edwards makes an interesting point:
"If on Flight 305 the autopilot was engaged (as the FBI assures us was the case) and "altitude hold" was switched on (which I think probable), it would compensate for the pitch-up without any intervention by the pilot, and would return the airplane to the desired angle of attack and to the desired altitude. There would surely have been some oscillations in the airplane's altitude, in the cabin's equivalent altitude, and in the cabin rate-of-climb (rate of change of cabin pressure), as there were in Boeing Test 100-1, summarized in the graphs below.]"
also:
"[I believe that there were at least three relevant differences between the Boeing tests and Flight 305.
* In the Boeing tests, the landing gear was up. On Flight 305, the gear was down.
* In the Boeing tests, according to my correspondent, the autopilot was probably disengaged. On Flight 305, according to two statements to the FBI by Northwest's Director of Flight Operations (Technical), the autopilot was engaged throughout most of the segment between Seattle and Reno. A former senior FBI agent advised me that the FBI had no reason to question these statements.
* In Boeing Test 100-1, all the interior panels in the stairwell were removed. to avoid possible damage. I do not know what the aerodynamic effects might have been, but I suspect that this condition would have created more turbulence in the stairwell. In Boeing Test 100-3, the panels were re-installed. On Flight 305, all the panels were in place."
He has a nice pic of N727000 doing a test drop over the Pacific with the stairs removed. Interestingly, the payload and parachute descend at a more vertical angle from the plane, then I've seen in other test drops. (in other tests)
interestingly Edwards said
"Back on March 5, 2020, I had submitted a FOIA request for all reports relating to the Boeing test flights. The FBI replied on July 6, 2020, to the effect that they had searched for the reports and found nothing."
and then the FBI released the files with the detailed test reports.
Weird.
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good thoughts by Edwards on the oscillations
https://www.goodreads.com/author_blog_posts/22825551-d-b-cooper-and-flight-305-the-oscillations
Edwards: (this is 8/16/22 so Edwards is musing post-book, and with new knowledge from newly released fbi files)
As mentioned in earlier posts, I discussed Boeing report D6-7771, on the Boeing tests 100-1 and 100-3 of the 727-22 in 1964, with an aerospace engineer who knows the Boeing 727 well.
He advised that on the Boeing tests, given the frequent references to manual trim, the autopilot was probably not engaged. However, with regard to Flight 305 between Seattle and Reno, I had reached the conclusion that the autopilot was almost certainly engaged most of the time.
This represented a significant difference between the configuration of the Boeing tests and that of Flight 305. With the autopilot engaged, any excursions in the control axes would be quickly corrected. Consequently, I would have expected any oscillations on Flight 305 to be much smaller than those on the Boeing tests.
I therefore asked my correspondent:
"... on Flight 305, given that the autopilot was engaged and that (probably) "altitude hold" was on, is there a way to estimate the maximum altitude excursions from 10,000 feet AMSL resulting from deployment of the airstair? I'm wondering: plus or minus 100 feet? More, or less?"
His reply was as follows [with my comments in square brackets]:
"... I would expect that [on Flight 305] the altitude fluctuation due to airstair deployment was less than 100 feet, especially with the autopilot engaged. The pilots would have needed to add some power to maintain airspeed. I am inclined to say that any altitude deviations of significance, if they existed, were more likely due to the weather of the evening [of November 24, 1971] than to the airstair deployment."
We recall that the crew's report of the oscillations on Flight 305 led to an estimate of the place and time of the hijacker's leap, which led to the delineation of a search area, where the FBI found nothing. We may wonder whether the oscillations on Flight 305 led the FBI down a wrong track, from which they were unable to return.
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Are you sure the 727 autopilot maintained AOA? I see only altitude hold in a casual look through my manuals. It would respond to the lowered stair but only by sensing a change in baro altitude and pitching up to maintain the set value. I may be incorrect. I have not looked at it in depth yet.
377
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Braden is still a fascinating DBC candidate.
When I spoke with MAC SOG MSgt Billy Waugh, he was quite certain Ted Braden was DB Cooper.
He said that most of his colleagues agreed.
Snowmman is in the building.
377
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Braden is still a fascinating DBC candidate.
When I spoke with MAC SOG MSgt Billy Waugh, he was quite certain Ted Braden was DB Cooper.
He said that most of his colleagues agreed.
Snowmman is in the building.
377
Braden is one of a tiny handful of named suspects who I think still warrant further investigation. It's shocking he has never been featured in one of these TV documentaries. Although, that's really the impact of the wiki page. Most people are lazy and will just go to the wiki page (which gets as many as 500k hits a month). Braden didn't have a wikipedia entry until I made one for him. Compared to everyone else listed on the wiki page, Braden just blows them away, so I've noticed that he has gotten more pub lately in those random news articles about the case that you come across.
Anyways, I've often said on podcast interviews and such that if you gave 100 random people the surface level details of the Cooper case and told them to invent who DB Cooper was, 85 of them would invent someone very similar to Braden. A feloniously minded master skydiver with balls the size of gas-giant planets whose whereabouts were unknown at the time.
However, no suspect is perfect and Braden isn't without his flaws, although his flaws aren't nearly as damning as other suspects' flaws. I don't care that his eyes were hazel and not brown (hazel can look brown), but I do care that he was 5'8 and scrawny. I don't think Cooper was any taller than six feet, but he was probably close to it, and it'd be difficult to peg someone who was 5'8 as six feet. But hey, Spec Ops types have lots of tricks and maybe he had lifts within his shoes or something. Who knows. But his height is a bit of problem.
The second issue that I have with Braden is that I have a hard time believing that his photos weren't shown to the stews. We know that he WAS investigated as early as Spring of 72 because a former MACVSOG member has described FBI agents interviewing him about Braden at a North Carolina drop zone. This seems accurate because of course he was a suspect. There should be no doubt that FBI agents inquired with the military about any ex-green beret types who could have done this and Braden's name surely came up. Braden was also a known rabble rouser at the time, due to his Ramparts interview where he exposed the info of MACVSOG running CIA ops in Laos illegally. However, I asked Larry Carr recently about Braden and he said it's a name he never came across at all in the case files. That was a long time ago and was before Braden was a "household name" in the Vortex, so maybe Carr just forgot about it.
Also, with the latest info we have about Cooper almost certainly choosing to jump with a 24 foot canopy over a 26 foot canopy, this really seems like something a whuffo would do. I'm guessing Braden would have chosen the safer canopy to jump with, but who knows, maybe he waived the increased risk of injury with a 24 footer in favor of getting to the ground faster.
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Are you sure the 727 autopilot maintained AOA? I see only altitude hold in a casual look through my manuals. It would respond to the lowered stair but only by sensing a change in baro altitude and pitching up to maintain the set value. I may be incorrect. I have not looked at it in depth yet.
377
I don't think any airliner autopilot had an Angle-of-Attack capability in 1971 and maybe not even today. The AOA came into use primarily by the Navy for use during carrier landings which were flown manually.
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Turns out an AOA indicator provides very useful info for general aviation pilots. My son owns and flies a two seat carbon fiber Aero Shark with two very up to date glass panels. He not only has an a AOA indicator on each LCD panel but also a voice annunciator that will give a loud verbal warning if AOA increases beyond safe limits given other factors such as airspeed. He bought the plane used from an Air National Guard F-16 pilot. The seller gave him a lot of useful tips about AOA, info that was omitted from my son’s basic flight training. My son told me if you stay on top of AOA you will never have an unintended stall.
377
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One thing that always fascinated me was the ability of the MAC SOG jumpers to rendezvous after landing. Remember, they were in enemy territory and made their jumps at night. They had to stay quiet, and they couldn’t use flares or other visual signals to find each other. Turns out they used a portable low power AM broadcast band transmitter carried by the leader. All jumpers carried ordinary Japanese AM band transistor radios that had the normal internal ferrite bar antenna, which is very directional. They learned how to find the transmitter by swinging the radio receivers until they got a null, that is a dip in the signal strength. The null would point in the direction of the transmitter. Problem is that there is 180° ambiguity with these ferrite bar antennas. They could be pointing towards the transmitter or directly away from it. Somehow the jumpers resolved this ambiguity successfully, and always managed to rendezvous. Perhaps they noted a decrease in signal strength if they were walking away from the transmitter, and then could reverse course.
Ted Braden was well-versed in this radio assisted rendezvous technique.
377
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The details don't work out.
But to feed the "what if"
But Braden supposedly worked in the past at a tool and die company.
machinist?
Don't have his full work history. not sure when he started trucking.
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One thing that always fascinated me was the ability of the MAC SOG jumpers to rendezvous after landing. Remember, they were in enemy territory and made their jumps at night.
377
reminds me of this beacon ad that was in the fbi files. It was an ad. I have to find it again
377: how come you don't have this beacon in your collection?
Larry was a big proponent of "cooper must be someone the fbi didn't investigate"
There are no records of MACV-SOG investigations in the fbi files.
So if Larry was consistent he would say "of course we should investigate vietnam.. because the FBI didn't"
I liked Sheridan and Braden because they were two aspects of Vietnam that people didn't expect.
Age.
and
Civilian and Military.
Neither of those are expected. Which is why the FBI didn't investigate, I think.
interesting 12/6/78 fbi files 72 page 352
verification of decal on the found placard (snip attached)
also page 65 testimony of S. Lewis Wallick, test pilot on the air stairs test of the 727 ( I think he was the test pilot. I didn't double check the report snip above)
he provides more detail..this testimony was provided on November 30, 1971
interesting he didn't provide full detail on "oh yeah, we did extensive testing with airstairs down"...
he provides info, but doesn't say how he knows. (on Nov 30, 1971)
it wasn't until much later that Boeing was fully forthcoming about their testing.
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> Braden is one of a tiny handful of named suspects who I think still warrant further investigation. It's shocking he has never been featured in one of these TV documentaries. Although, that's really the impact of the wiki page. Most people are lazy and will just go to the wiki page (which gets as many as 500k hits a month). Braden didn't have a wikipedia entry until I made one for him.
The interesting thing about Braden, is that even though Pat his wife and his ex-MACV-SOG friends suspected him, apparently no one ever called the FBI and said "investigate Braden"
at least, not according to any records currently released.
Really need to do an FOIA on Braden.
If the fbi did investigate him with respect to a $250k insurance scam in the early '70s, per his wife Pat, that would be interesting info
I mean. divorce and a $250k scam in the right time frame.
Seems like a "must-investigate-more"
I think Braden got a bunch of free passes because of Vietnam activities that were still secret.
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> The second issue that I have with Braden is that I have a hard time believing that his photos weren't shown to the stews. We know that he WAS investigated as early as Spring of 72 because a former MACVSOG member has described FBI agents interviewing him about Braden at a North Carolina drop zone. This seems accurate because of course he was a suspect. There should be no doubt that FBI agents inquired with the military about any ex-green beret types who could have done this and Braden's name surely came up. Braden was also a known rabble rouser at the time, due to his Ramparts interview where he exposed the info of MACVSOG running CIA ops in Laos illegally. However, I asked Larry Carr recently about Braden and he said it's a name he never came across at all in the case files. That was a long time ago and was before Braden was a "household name" in the Vortex, so maybe Carr just forgot about it.
I have a hard time believing this FBI interview story.
Braden, as far as I can tell, was never a suspect, nor investigated.
Be happy to find info otherwise.
I mean, I can easily find Sheridan was suspect #112
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The other thing people should be asking, is if Braden was so obvious, how come he wasn't mentioned until I introduced him?
And how, out of the Billions of possibles, did he pop out? :)
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remember
Braden was out of the military for a while in 1971
so any chance of FBI latching on to him, would probably depend on either
a really indepth investigation like they did to civilian clubs in the usa
(FBI didn't do that though)
or someone calling in a tip on Braden.
no evidence of <even redacted< tips on macv-sog players.
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i made some other posts on Braden on the suspects pages
but here's an interesting braden story from 1944
http://secondbattalion501.blogspot.com/2007/01/1945-moving-forward_05.html
FRIDAY, JANUARY 05, 2007
Second Battalion 501st PIR at Bizory, Belgium
December 1944 through January 1945
Preface
The following is this author’s description of the flow of events and action as experienced by the men of Second Battalion, 501 Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division beginning on the 18 December 1944 and ending on 15 January 1945. It is based on veteran’s accounts shared with the author in personal discussions, written accounts by veterans, and documents on file in the National Archives in Washington DC. It is in no way meant to be an accurate or final account, but the most probable based on the author’s interpretation of the material presented.
Peter Broome, first squad, second platoon, Easy Co., recalls that the German listening post in front of his foxhole on the farm track in Bizory was very close. Being a baseball player, Broome always judged distances in terms of baseball. The German listening post was close enough to him that a good little league pitcher could knock the helmet off the man sitting in it from his foxhole.\
Harry Mole recalls sitting in the listening post one night as being no fun at all. “You start to see things. It gets a bit hairy all out there by yourself.”
A fellow Easy trooper, Ted Braden, would crawl out to the listening post alone just after sundown. He knew that by the time he was settled into the listening post two German soldiers would be making their way as quietly as possible from tree to tree along the farm track to their listening post only a few dozen feet away.
The Germans always sent two men to such an outpost for they knew one soldier might be tempted to make his way to the American lines and give himself up. Men on listening outpost duty frequently heard snoring from their German counterparts.
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Turns out an AOA indicator provides very useful info for general aviation pilots. My son owns and flies a two seat carbon fiber Aero Shark with two very up to date glass panels. He not only has an a AOA indicator on each LCD panel but also a voice annunciator that will give a loud verbal warning if AOA increases beyond safe limits given other factors such as airspeed. He bought the plane used from an Air National Guard F-16 pilot. The seller gave him a lot of useful tips about AOA, info that was omitted from my son’s basic flight training. My son told me if you stay on top of AOA you will never have an unintended stall.
377
Glass panels came along well after I retired so I don't have any personal experience with them or with AOA instruments either. But wings do stall at essentially the same angle of attack which depends on the flap/slats configuration among other things. For a specific configuration, the stall speed varies as a function of the aircraft's weight. But as your son points out, if you keep the AOA below the stall AOA for your specific aircraft configuration you won't stall.
As I mentioned previously, the Navy pioneered the use of AOA indicators. I have heard that the Navy tries to keep the wind over the deck at a given value and will adjust the speed of the carrier to maintain that speed. So presumably the deck touchdown speed of an aircraft will vary depending on the weight of the landing aircraft. That is, identical configured aircraft flying at the same AOA will touch down at different speeds depending on their weight.
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"also page 65 testimony of S. Lewis Wallick, test pilot on the air stairs test of the 727 ( I think he was the test pilot. I didn't double check the report snip above)"
Lew Wallick was the pilot on at least one of the air stairs test flights. He was also the 727 project pilot and made the first flight of the 727.
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it's interesting that Braden turned to petty crime.
I was wondering what other MACV-SOG turned to crime
in terms of numbers, it's a relatively small number of people
here's an estimate of total numbers, from a macvsog kia/mia web page
He estimates 400-600 in recon/hatchet teams during the entire vietnam operational period.
And Braden was a team leader!
from http://www.macvsog.cc/alphabetical.htm
12,000 were Special Forces Soldiers who served in Vietnam , other sources say 20,000. of that 12,000 only 2,000 served in Vietnam with SOG. ---- And of those 2,000, only 400 to a maximum of 600 served in SOG Recon/Hatchet Forces
Commandos who were the SF troop Operators actually fighting in a combat environment with the other 1,400 being support during the 8 year period of their existence.
Of those 400-600 suffered more than half of all the Special Forces fatalities and eighty-five percent of the SF missing in action cases in the war. This yields 50 to a max of 75 Commando operators per year.
With three (3) operational units, CCN, CCC, CCS, each would have around 17 to 25 SF Commandos operators on an annual basis. (Based on the roster for Command and Control North Recon Company as of April 1971, there were 30 Recon Team with a total of 95 American SF assigned to teams; however, not were operational as some were in stand down or not operational.
During the early years, the teams running were much smaller as the missions grew, the teams requirements grew so it is not possible to know exactly or even approximately how man Americans served in Recon or Hatchet forces over the 1964 thru April 1972. The first Recon team that ran a mission was inserted October 18, 1965.
Taking this information, actual operations was, and assuming the last mission was ran the last day April 72, teams were operational for 6 and a half year. In August 1970 a number of RT member were transferred from CCS to CCN, thus increasing the strength of Recon Company of CCN and reducing the strength for CCS.
I mention this as the 30 team reported in Apr 71 cannot be used as a data point to try and calculate the strength of Recon and Hatchet for each period of time and location. I, therefore, conclude that the number would be between the calculation of 400 to 600 throughout the entire operational period.
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for what it's worth, Carr said he can't recall seeing Braden's name in any of the 302's. Additionally, I asked him if he ever recalls seeing "MACVSOG" or some other iteration of it and he said he did not. This, of course, makes sense because classified information wasn't put in 302's. With SOG being classified at the time, Carr said they'd probably just leave out the specifics and refer to any of those suspects as "Green Berets" or generic "Special Forces"
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Here's one thing we haven't discussed.
The mythology around the invincible Ted Braden.
Note the mythology extends to WWII. I mean people just like telling stories about how Ted was able to stay alive in risky combat situations.
But look at the petty crimes he got caught for. Seems to me, that he was mediocre when it came to crime. How much other crime did he do that was not discovered? Unknown.
The story of him and wife Pat owning Mercedes is intriguing.
She says she didn't file for divorce because of lack of money.
I'm thinking there was a time when there was money.
Where did it come from? Other petty crime? Trucking insurance fraud?
Braden could be the mixture of competence in one area, and not great competence in another area.
The stories around Braden like to paint him as equally brilliant in everything he did.
He wasn't.
Even the macv-sog stories are a little overstated. None of the missions accomplished as much as they like to say they did.
Sure the guys took risks, And died and took casualties.
But taking risks and dieing...there will always be survivors at some level.
It's hard to say what is attributable to being "good at it"
The best way to stay alive is to not take risks. Or to do things that others think are risky (appearance risk) that really aren't.
Because if the risk is real, you eventually die. Or get caught and sent to federal prison...:)
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i did a search of ocr'ed text of the fbi files on "vietnam" and macv
some vietnam. Not much
I'll try special forces and green beret. Doubt there's anything.
They just didn't think they were dealing with a vietnam guy I think, because of the age issue.
they thought they had a middle-aged guy from stateside. (biased thinking)
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Given the small number of macv-sog...
if there was even an inkling of macv-sog suspicion, there couldn't be more than 10 people worth investigating.
I mean I wonder what the list of 10 would be.
Braden was the only thing I came up with.
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interesting comment that Braden was a "gambler" while married to the first wife (from the 1950 census?)
In the 1950 federal census, Ted was 21, married and living in Columbus Georgia. He was a boarder in the house of Cecil and Breta Jones. Also in the household were Ted and Rosalind's 3 children. Ted stated that he was a gambler in the entertainment industry. A newspaper article from about that time shows his financial circumstances. See Georgia, Muscogee County.
I checked the 1950 census and it's true. the relevant page is attached below
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Georgia, Muscogee County
The following appeared in The Columbus Ledger on January 17th 1950 on page 17:
There will be sold at public outcry to the highest and best bidder for cash before the Court House door of Muscogee County between the legal hours of sale. on the first Tuesday in February, 1950, the following property to-wit:
One 1946 Club Coupe Mercury automobile, Motor No 96A1318394 Said property was found in possession of Hardaway Motor Co. and levied on as the property of Ted B. Braden Jr. to satisfy a foreclosure on conditional bill of sale against him in favor of Federal Services Finance Corporation from the Superior Court of Muscogee County, Ga.
This the 30th day of December, 1949. E. F. Howell, Sheriff, Muscogee Co., Georgia January 16, 17, 24, 31, 1950.
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Just noticed this at dz.com (sorry i didn't note the credit)
copying here just for info.
braden's discharge (dd-214) from his wwii era enlistment
noted he had gray eyes then (brown hair)
the later pennsyvlania police report had noted gray/hazel
another case of his signature at the bottom also
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Well, I'm confused.
First, Weather Underground only has weather data from the Portland airport from the night of the hijacking. That data suggests that at 7pm the wind was blowing from the southeast at 5mph and shifted to blowing from the SSW at 12mph by 10pm. This would probably suggest that at the time Cooper bailed the wind was also blowing 5+mph from the SOUTH.
I can't find any weather or wind data between Portland airport and SeaTac. Nothing near where the placard was found. Nothing near Cinebar. Nothing near Ariel.
SeaTac's weather data also has the wind blowing from the south at 7pm but also shifting and blowing from the SOUTHEAST at 14mph.
My point is that I cannot find any substantial weather data for the route south between Seattle and Portland, and what data I did find suggests that the wind was blowing from the south or southeast and didn't shift to the SSW until after Cooper jumped.
That's why I am eager to find more weather data. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this as it has been taken for granted that the wind was blowing from the SSW at the time Cooper jumped.
I've been doing a deep dive into the weather data from that night. I received data from a source that the wind direction - both on the ground and aloft - was likely NOT blowing consistently from the southwest to the northeast. Rather, the winds between LaCenter and Portland were shifting - blowing from the SE to the SW and back again. Thus, they were generally blowing in a north to northwest direction. Clearly, this stands in contrast to the generally accepted idea that the winds were blowing toward the NE. This would have an obvious impact on where Cooper landed and the ensuing ground search. When I have all my ducks in a row, I will be sure to post what I have here for everyone to see.
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Well, I'm confused.
First, Weather Underground only has weather data from the Portland airport from the night of the hijacking. That data suggests that at 7pm the wind was blowing from the southeast at 5mph and shifted to blowing from the SSW at 12mph by 10pm. This would probably suggest that at the time Cooper bailed the wind was also blowing 5+mph from the SOUTH.
I can't find any weather or wind data between Portland airport and SeaTac. Nothing near where the placard was found. Nothing near Cinebar. Nothing near Ariel.
SeaTac's weather data also has the wind blowing from the south at 7pm but also shifting and blowing from the SOUTHEAST at 14mph.
My point is that I cannot find any substantial weather data for the route south between Seattle and Portland, and what data I did find suggests that the wind was blowing from the south or southeast and didn't shift to the SSW until after Cooper jumped.
That's why I am eager to find more weather data. I'd love to hear some thoughts on this as it has been taken for granted that the wind was blowing from the SSW at the time Cooper jumped.
I've been doing a deep dive into the weather data from that night. I received data from a source that the wind direction - both on the ground and aloft - was likely NOT blowing consistently from the southwest to the northeast. Rather, the winds between LaCenter and Portland were shifting - blowing from the SE to the SW and back again. Thus, they were generally blowing in a north to northwest direction. Clearly, this stands in contrast to the generally accepted idea that the winds were blowing toward the NE. This would have an obvious impact on where Cooper landed and the ensuing ground search. When I have all my ducks in a row, I will be sure to post what I have here for everyone to see.
What is the source of your claim that the wind was blowing in any direction other than from the southwest to the northeast at the time of the hijacking?
Tom Kaye has researched and posted on this site the predicted winds aloft for the Portland to Seattle area that the FAA used for flight planning purposes on the evening of the hijacking. Those winds were from the southwest to the northeast at 10,000 feet.
Also, Tom Kaye has obtained and posted the NOAA balloon data for the winds aloft at two different locations in Oregon and Washington, and two different times of the day, for the day of the hijacking. The winds at 10,000 feet were consistently from the southwest to the northeast.
The claim by Captain Bohan that he had an 80-knot headwind from the southeast in the Portland area that evening is nonsense. No such wind existed.
The winds aloft on the evening of the hijacking are known, accurate, and readily available. Any claims to the contrary are made by people who are just ignoring the facts because they do not fit into their pet theory.
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Tom posted the NOAA data on here. Go look at page 117 of the Flight Path thread. He posted images there. It clearly shows a consistent southerly wind. It does not support your claim that the wind was blowing directly from the southeast to the northeast.
It’s also important to note that this data was collected in Salem, OR and Quillayute Airport in Forks, WA which is a distance of over 200 miles. The DZ would fall somewhere in this large swath of space. The wind speed and direction would be mere extrapolations and not exact representations of the winds aloft near the DZ.
Moreover, in the recent FBI Vault release, there was a segment on weather data provided to the FBI by the US Weather Bureau. This weather data included multiple reporting stations along the West Coast. The data provided was from 7pm, 8pm, and 9pm on the date of the hijacking. The closest reporting stations to any reasonable DZ would be Portland International, Troutdale Airport, and Toledo, WA.
Here is that wind data:
Time.
7pm
Toledo. 160 degrees at 4 knots
PDX. 130 degrees at 4 knots
Troutdale. 170 degrees at 3 knots
8pm
Toledo. 190 degrees at 5 knots
PDX. 270 degrees at 10 knots
Troutdale. 220 degrees at 7 knots
9pm
Toledo. 190 degrees at 6 knots
PDX. 190 degrees at 11 knots
Troutdale. 220 degrees at 1 knot
The outlier of course is PDX at 8pm. According to the data supplied by the US Weather Bureau, the wind shits from out of the SOUTHEAST at 130 degrees to out of the WEST at 270 degrees in one hour and then shifts again from out of the WEST at 270 degrees to out of the SOUTH-SOUTHWEST an hour after that.
Now, that is certainly possible for a dramatic shift in wind over an hour period, but it is unusual. Could it be that the 270 is actually a typographical error and the wind was blowing out of the SOUTH-SOUTHEAST at 170 degrees?
Either way, it would appear that the wind direction was shifting throughout the night, and that any wind speed or direction at the DZ - say between Ariel and the Columbia is merely an estimate based on weather reports from stations miles away.
Even the historical data from Weather Underground states that the wind from from the SE at 8pm at PDX.
I have more information obviously, but I want to make sure I have facts before I make any claims.
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I lived here in Portland area in 1971 and for most of my life.
I totally disagree with the wind direction you are alleging. That’s just not the wind direction I have ever witnessed in almost all of my years and definitely not the direction on Nov 24, 1971.
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I lived here in Portland area in 1971 and for most of my life.
I totally disagree with the wind direction you are alleging. That’s just not the wind direction I have ever witnessed in almost all of my years and definitely not the direction on Nov 24, 1971.
Based on your experience, what is the typical wind direction? And what was the wind direction that night?
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Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18RjLGyWuB1Ssui8KMhLjqRSkXsWf1ONQ/view?usp=drive_link
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Tom posted the NOAA data on here. Go look at page 117 of the Flight Path thread. He posted images there. It clearly shows a consistent southerly wind. It does not support your claim that the wind was blowing directly from the southeast to the northeast.
It’s also important to note that this data was collected in Salem, OR and Quillayute Airport in Forks, WA which is a distance of over 200 miles. The DZ would fall somewhere in this large swath of space. The wind speed and direction would be mere extrapolations and not exact representations of the winds aloft near the DZ.
Moreover, in the recent FBI Vault release, there was a segment on weather data provided to the FBI by the US Weather Bureau. This weather data included multiple reporting stations along the West Coast. The data provided was from 7pm, 8pm, and 9pm on the date of the hijacking. The closest reporting stations to any reasonable DZ would be Portland International, Troutdale Airport, and Toledo, WA.
Here is that wind data:
Time.
7pm
Toledo. 160 degrees at 4 knots
PDX. 130 degrees at 4 knots
Troutdale. 170 degrees at 3 knots
8pm
Toledo. 190 degrees at 5 knots
PDX. 270 degrees at 10 knots
Troutdale. 220 degrees at 7 knots
9pm
Toledo. 190 degrees at 6 knots
PDX. 190 degrees at 11 knots
Troutdale. 220 degrees at 1 knot
The outlier of course is PDX at 8pm. According to the data supplied by the US Weather Bureau, the wind shits from out of the SOUTHEAST at 130 degrees to out of the WEST at 270 degrees in one hour and then shifts again from out of the WEST at 270 degrees to out of the SOUTH-SOUTHWEST an hour after that.
Now, that is certainly possible for a dramatic shift in wind over an hour period, but it is unusual. Could it be that the 270 is actually a typographical error and the wind was blowing out of the SOUTH-SOUTHEAST at 170 degrees?
Either way, it would appear that the wind direction was shifting throughout the night, and that any wind speed or direction at the DZ - say between Ariel and the Columbia is merely an estimate based on weather reports from stations miles away.
Even the historical data from Weather Underground states that the wind from from the SE at 8pm at PDX.
I have more information obviously, but I want to make sure I have facts before I make any claims.
Chaucer, the wind information you list is for the ground winds. The airliner was at 10,000 feet above sea level. The winds aloft information that Tom Kaye has uncovered is for the winds at altitudes that are completely out of the atmospheric ground effect.
Chaucer, go to FAA.gov and download the free FAA publication "Aviation Weather". Then give it a thorough study. The weather information you have listed above is simply not a factor in the hijacking.
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Robert,
The link that I provided is an Aviation Weather Report supplied by Weather Bureau to the FBI. The reporting stations are airports. There is even a section entited "PIREPS" which, as you know, stands for Pilot Reports".
did you even bother to look at it or had you made up your mind already?
Further, the data of the winds aloft provided by Tom Kaye is from the ground to 12,000 feet AMSL.
Lastly, what you are saying is irrelevant in the end because we do not have reliable wind data for any reasonable DZ during any reasonable jump time. There are winds for Portland. Winds for Toledo. Winds for Seattle. Winds for Salem.
But there is no wind data for Ariel, Battle Ground, Orchards, Hockinson, Brush Prairie, or Vancouver during the time period of 8:10 to say 8:20. It's all extrapolation and estimation.
My point is that, if we can gain anything from this weather/wind data, it is that our understanding of the winds is incomplete and far more variable than simply "blowing directly northeast". All that said, I am working on a tip from a source about information that may indicate definitely what the wind was like that night in those areas I indicated above. Once I verify its accuracy, I will post what I find.
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Robert,
The link that I provided is an Aviation Weather Report supplied by Weather Bureau to the FBI. The reporting stations are airports. There is even a section entited "PIREPS" which, as you know, stands for Pilot Reports".
did you even bother to look at it or had you made up your mind already?
Further, the data of the winds aloft provided by Tom Kaye is from the ground to 12,000 feet AMSL.
Lastly, what you are saying is irrelevant in the end because we do not have reliable wind data for any reasonable DZ during any reasonable jump time. There are winds for Portland. Winds for Toledo. Winds for Seattle. Winds for Salem.
But there is no wind data for Ariel, Battle Ground, Orchards, Hockinson, Brush Prairie, or Vancouver during the time period of 8:10 to say 8:20. It's all extrapolation and estimation.
My point is that, if we can gain anything from this weather/wind data, it is that our understanding of the winds is incomplete and far more variable than simply "blowing directly northeast". All that said, I am working on a tip from a source about information that may indicate definitely what the wind was like that night in those areas I indicated above. Once I verify its accuracy, I will post what I find.
Chaucer, I presume the "Aviation Weather Reports" that you mention are the routine Hourly Sequence Reports from various ground stations. These hourly sequence reports include the measured ground data such as winds at that station, the atmospheric pressure, the estimated height of cloud layers and their coverage, the estimated visibility, and any comments that are applicable about recent or predicted future weather events for that station. The sequence reports do not include winds aloft.
Twice a day, the FAA issues predicted winds aloft based on data produced by the National Weather Service. These predictions are used by pilots in their flight planning. The winds aloft are based, at least in part, on the balloon data provided by the NOAA, and that in turn is generated from actual measured balloon data.
Pilot reports can include such things as cloud heights, and depending on the aircraft's equipment, may be able to provide winds aloft speeds and directions. In 1971, this would usually require the pilot to do some calculations.
The information that the FAA provided to the FBI for predicted jump zones was, at best, just estimates. And of course, no one knows exactly where Cooper jumped.
The NOAA measured data for the date of the hijacking was determined independently by Eric Ulis and myself. We applied that data to refine the Western Flight Path. It appears that only the people who have never seen this data are the ones who claim that it is invalid.
Chaucer, let me say again that you and anyone else that you are talking to would greatly benefit from reading the FAA publication "Aviation Weather". Otherwise, you are just going with "Old Wives Tales".
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Everything you just wrote has nothing to do with what I have said.
You don't even understand what I'm talking about, yet you want to argue with me.
Nothing can be gained from this discussion, so I am going to let it drop.
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I lived here in Portland area in 1971 and for most of my life.
I totally disagree with the wind direction you are alleging. That’s just not the wind direction I have ever witnessed in almost all of my years and definitely not the direction on Nov 24, 1971.
Based on your experience, what is the typical wind direction? And what was the wind direction that night?
Thanks for asking ! First off oftentimes meteorologists on Portland T V stations have mentioned the various reasons weather is quite difficult to forecast accurately. We have coastal Winds, The Columbia River gorge winds, and Portland actually has 4 hills within its immediate area. I lived in Mt. Scott area, Mt. Tabor a semi dormant Volcano, Rocky Butte which overlooks PDX, and Council Crest where I delivered Mail for many year.Portland weather is also affected by the Cascades and Costal Range. Starting at PDX Heading East a few miles we enter Gresham and go a few more miles and you’re in Troutdale which is the entrance to the scenic Columbia River Gorge. Wow ! Now depending upon the time of year, The Gorge can produce an entirely different weather. Hood River and John Day are regarded as the wind Surfing Capital of the world by some !
My point being that weather just North of Portland isn’t always a true measure of what’s going on in Vancouver, Battleground, Ariel etc.
On the night of Nov 24, 1971, I would say the wind was from the SSW or blowing North Easterly in Portland area.
Also this is the most common direction of the wind direction in this area and Im including where I presently reside which is just East of Vader and 7 miles SW of Toledo. The wind direction is easily detected here because of the many wildfires to my North and East. So far not any smoke reaching my area. You might also note that when Mt. St. Helens erupted in 1960, the heaviest ash deposits were in Spokane area and went as far As Kalispell, Montana.I lived in Happy Valley area at that time. From my point of view, winds coming from the East is uncommon in Cooper country ! JMHO I’d also like to add that V 23 seems to be where I see most commercial Airline flights every Day from my view as I can see Mt St. Helens clearly from my living room. Hope this helps clarifying my thoughts.
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Everything you just wrote has nothing to do with what I have said.
You don't even understand what I'm talking about, yet you want to argue with me.
Nothing can be gained from this discussion, so I am going to let it drop.
Chaucer, everything I posted above relates to the winds aloft on the evening of the hijacking. The sources I cited are the only factual information that is available for those winds.
If you are claiming that you have other "sources" for those winds then you are mistaken because there are no other sources. There were no Voodoo winds that evening.
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filed a FOIA the other day for a high resolution scan of this photo. Would be nice to know what we're talking about as regards this "protruding lower lip" business.
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Everything you just wrote has nothing to do with what I have said.
You don't even understand what I'm talking about, yet you want to argue with me.
Nothing can be gained from this discussion, so I am going to let it drop.
Chaucer, everything I posted above relates to the winds aloft on the evening of the hijacking. The sources I cited are the only factual information that is available for those winds.
If you are claiming that you have other "sources" for those winds then you are mistaken because there are no other sources. There were no Voodoo winds that evening.
Robert,
I have said nothing about the winds aloft except to cite Tom Kaye's radiosonde data. That data seems to indicate that the ground winds and winds aloft were pretty consistent without any extreme change. They also indicate a more southerly wind than is generally accepted.
The ground winds were estimates from reporting stations several miles away from any reasonable dropzone. No one knows exactly what the wind speed or direction was between 8:05 and 8:20 between Ariel and Vancouver.
None of this is new or particularly controversial. The only Voodoo appears to be you claiming otherwise.
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filed a FOIA the other day for a high resolution scan of this photo. Would be nice to know what we're talking about as regards this "protruding lower lip" business.
Perhaps it is just the poor resolution, but is there a hint of a turkey wattle as well?
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Everything you just wrote has nothing to do with what I have said.
You don't even understand what I'm talking about, yet you want to argue with me.
Nothing can be gained from this discussion, so I am going to let it drop.
Chaucer, everything I posted above relates to the winds aloft on the evening of the hijacking. The sources I cited are the only factual information that is available for those winds.
If you are claiming that you have other "sources" for those winds then you are mistaken because there are no other sources. There were no Voodoo winds that evening.
Robert,
I have said nothing about the winds aloft except to cite Tom Kaye's radiosonde data. That data seems to indicate that the ground winds and winds aloft were pretty consistent without any extreme change. They also indicate a more southerly wind than is generally accepted.
The ground winds were estimates from reporting stations several miles away from any reasonable dropzone. No one knows exactly what the wind speed or direction was between 8:05 and 8:20 between Ariel and Vancouver.
None of this is new or particularly controversial. The only Voodoo appears to be you claiming otherwise.
Chaucer, again you are ignoring the winds aloft.
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So, what were the winds aloft between Ariel and Vancouver between 8:05pm and 8:20 pm on November 24th, 1971?
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So, what were the winds aloft between Ariel and Vancouver between 8:05pm and 8:20 pm on November 24th, 1971?
As repeatedly pointed out to you, the only available winds aloft information for the Portland and Seattle areas is that provided by the NOAA balloon data and the FAA winds aloft data provided to pilots for flight planning.
Again, again, and again, get the FAA's publication "Aviation Weather" and give it a thorough study. If 17-year-old boys and girls have to study aviation weather to get pilot licenses then you should be able to handle the subject as well.
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As repeatedly pointed out to you, the only available winds aloft information for the Portland and Seattle areas is that provided by the NOAA balloon data and the FAA winds aloft data provided to pilots for flight planning.
Pointed out to me? I'm the one that posted the file with the data, Robert. You chose not to read it.
Discussing this topic with you is exhausting. What exactly have I said that you disagree with?
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As repeatedly pointed out to you, the only available winds aloft information for the Portland and Seattle areas is that provided by the NOAA balloon data and the FAA winds aloft data provided to pilots for flight planning.
Pointed out to me? I'm the one that posted the file with the data, Robert. You chose not to read it.
Discussing this topic with you is exhausting. What exactly have I said that you disagree with?
Chaucer, I am not aware of you posting a file with any meaningful data. The only meaningful or realistic winds aloft data that I am aware of is that which Tom Kaye obtained and I believe it is all posted on this site.
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Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18RjLGyWuB1Ssui8KMhLjqRSkXsWf1ONQ/view?usp=drive_link
Here is the post along with the link. At no point did I claim that they were winds aloft, yet you fail to recognize that Tom's winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet.
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Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18RjLGyWuB1Ssui8KMhLjqRSkXsWf1ONQ/view?usp=drive_link
Here is the post along with the link. At no point did I claim that they were winds aloft, yet you fail to recognize that Tom's winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet.
Chaucer, Tom Kaye's "winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet" is exactly what I have been telling you. The NOAA balloon data was the sole source of measured data used in predicting the winds aloft that the FAA issued for pilot planning purposes. Except for the measured NOAA balloon data and what was measured at ground level and reported in the hourly sequences reports, everything else was a prediction.
The winds aloft were measured by the balloons from ground level up and we do not need to go above 10,000 feet above sea level here since that is as high as the airliner went in the WA and OR areas.
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Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18RjLGyWuB1Ssui8KMhLjqRSkXsWf1ONQ/view?usp=drive_link
Here is the post along with the link. At no point did I claim that they were winds aloft, yet you fail to recognize that Tom's winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet.
Chaucer, Tom Kaye's "winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet" is exactly what I have been telling you. The NOAA balloon data was the sole source of measured data used in predicting the winds aloft that the FAA issued for pilot planning purposes. Except for the measured NOAA balloon data and what was measured at ground level and reported in the hourly sequences reports, everything else was a prediction.
The winds aloft were measured by the balloons from ground level up and we do not need to go above 10,000 feet above sea level here since that is as high as the airliner went in the WA and OR areas.
I feel like I'm being gaslighted.
This is what I have been telling YOU. Why are you trying to argue with me about it?
My point is that that NOAA data from Tom shows that the ground winds and winds aloft were fairly consistent with one another. Therefore, one could conclude that if we know the ground winds, the winds aloft would not be much different. The caveat is that the NOAA data provided by Tom comes from reporting areas dozens about miles away from any reasonable jump spot. So, the data is of the winds aloft is merely estimates and extrapolations.
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Also, here is the weather data from the most recent Vault release. This comes from the U.S. Weather Bureau which is now known as the National Weather Service. The data indicates the wind shifting (in Portland) from out of the southeast to out of the west to out of the south-southwest over the course of 2 or 3 hours.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18RjLGyWuB1Ssui8KMhLjqRSkXsWf1ONQ/view?usp=drive_link
Here is the post along with the link. At no point did I claim that they were winds aloft, yet you fail to recognize that Tom's winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet.
Chaucer, Tom Kaye's "winds aloft data was from GROUND to 12,000 feet" is exactly what I have been telling you. The NOAA balloon data was the sole source of measured data used in predicting the winds aloft that the FAA issued for pilot planning purposes. Except for the measured NOAA balloon data and what was measured at ground level and reported in the hourly sequences reports, everything else was a prediction.
The winds aloft were measured by the balloons from ground level up and we do not need to go above 10,000 feet above sea level here since that is as high as the airliner went in the WA and OR areas.
I feel like I'm being gaslighted.
This is what I have been telling YOU. Why are you trying to argue with me about it?
My point is that that NOAA data from Tom shows that the ground winds and winds aloft were fairly consistent with one another. Therefore, one could conclude that if we know the ground winds, the winds aloft would not be much different. The caveat is that the NOAA data provided by Tom comes from reporting areas dozens about miles away from any reasonable jump spot. So, the data is of the winds aloft is merely estimates and extrapolations.
Chaucer, you seem to be unable to understand that the winds aloft were MEASURED by the balloon data.
Also, your theory that the winds aloft will be in the same direction as the surface winds is baseless. To disprove your theory, all you have to do is check the surface winds for several locations near where you live and those surface winds will probably be in completely different directions.
The FAA's publication, "Aviation Weather", is available free and online for anyone who wants to gain some knowledge of the subject.
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All,
I was having dinner with my science friend Bruce the other night and he asked about Cooper. I told him there was a big discussion about the flight path and the placard drift rate. Bruce is retired from JPL, created the first clear air turbulence instrument and was on the team that discovered the ozone hole. He described the boundary layer over land (as opposed to water) as going from 0-3000 feet or so and it is in this layer that the winds typically are in a different direction from winds aloft. He said the way to answer the question is get the radiosonde data from those dates in that area and it would show the winds from ground to 12K+ feet or so. It turns out that the data is tricky to get and condense into readable form so I had to bribe him with a steak dinner and now we have the data!
The two closest locations were Salem just south of Portland and Quillayute Bruce said was just west of Seattle. They launch twice a day at 5pm and 5am so that is the data we have. I had him pull a second random day Nov 11 for comparison and you can see that the winds then were actually east near the ground. Nov 24 looks pretty consistent all the way down but seems to be more southerly than we had estimated. Now you can do a proper analysis. :)
Tom Kaye
This is Tom's original post about the radiosonde data.
Here is his last sentence for emphasis:
Nov 24 looks pretty consistent all the way down but seems to be more southerly than we had estimated.
If you believe the theory that the ground winds were consistent with the winds aloft is baseless, perhaps you should take it up with Tom.
Also, I know the winds aloft were measured by the balloons. You keep trying to pick a fight over things we agree with. As unbelievable as it may be to you, you are not the only one who understands this stuff.
Rather than trying to be confrontational, condescending, and argumentative, perhaps you should cooperate and collaborate in good faith.
This isn't a contest on who is smarter or who gets the right answer first. It's about everyone working together to find the truth. That's why I share the information that I find with everyone rather than working alone in the dark. It's also why I am comfortable admitting when I am wrong or when I don't know something and asking for help. I don't have all the answers. Spoiler alert: neither do you. Maybe all of us together can change that.