Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 339410 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3150 on: October 13, 2021, 01:16:58 AM »


There is no report or anything to suggest he jury-rigged the training reserve to himself.
why would you say that he did?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3151 on: October 13, 2021, 01:20:01 AM »
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There is no report or anything to suggest he jury-rigged the training reserve to himself.
why would you say that he did?

If Cooper took the non-functional reserve with him, he would have to jury-rig it.  Or do you think that he just threw it out the back of the airliner?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3152 on: October 13, 2021, 01:21:55 AM »
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I have no problem thinking outside the box, but I’d rather stay in the realm of reality and not imagination. There’s no evidence to suggest that any of the things you suggested were red herrings. It’s pure speculation which is fine, but none of that be proven. If we go down that road we could imagine all sorts of scenarios and wild theories.

All I’m trying to do is get a read on Cooper’s experience or lack thereof. If he was he was experienced and jumping out of a 727 in the dark is easy, then a reserve is an unnecessary complication. If he used the reserve with the D rings then he was a novice or totally reckless.

I’m looking at the facts at hand and trying to make sense of it in a rational fashion. That said, I fully admit that I do not have the knowledge base of Dudeman and 377 and others.

heh. You're stuck thinking your interpreration of the "facts" is better than whatever Cooper's interpretation was.

So: what would have been the "right" way for an experienced jumper to do the hijack? At least all the jump-related stuff? I don't think there is one. Because it's not just about doing the jump.
It's about doing the jump and not going to jail. (getting the money is probably secondary)

What would have been the "probable" way an inexperienced jumper had done it? Well, any crazy-ass way I guess, given the full spectrum of inexperienced jumpers. (crazy, not-crazy, etc)

I mean if you answer those two questions, they just will show your bias. Nothing about Cooper.

I think your assessment of what is a "fact" and what it means, is mostly about your bias.

Why would an inexperienced jumper plan to jump at night?
I mean if I did it (inexperienced) I would try to guarantee a day jump. That seems basic.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 01:24:51 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3153 on: October 13, 2021, 04:43:43 PM »
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:

Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?


The fact that Cooper used the bailout rig is primarily indicative of that's what they gave him. He asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. That sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, sport mains and the reserves that go with them. Instead of sport mains, they gave him bailout rigs. Bailout rigs do not use additional reserves because they ARE reserves. The design of the canopy is for opening reliability rather than the flight performance a sport main might have. Unlike sport mains, they are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and at regular intervals whether they are used or not. The theory in an aviation situation that might involve parachutes is that you want to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Aerobatic pilots or military aircrew take bailout rigs because their type of flying might require them to bail out. They don't intend to, and in effect their airplane is their main. A sport jumper intends to jump and use his main, so he takes a reserve in case it malfunctions. Mains might have design parameters to increase their flight performance that might increase the possibility of malfunction. I have heard the analogy that a skydiver wears a reserve for the same reason a driver wears a seatbelt. I prefer to compare it to a spare tire. I tell my students not to regard a malfunction as a near death experience, but more like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day.
I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute. Plus the two chest reserves? The FBI has used his selection of the NB-8 as evidence that he was inexperienced and chose the inferior chute.

What I’m getting at is:  if jumping out of airplanes is easy and if Cooper is experienced, then why ask for a reserve?

Second, with a bailout rig, a reserve fastened haphazardly to him, plus a bank bag tied haphazardly to him seems indicative to him of someone either really inexperienced or someone utterly reckless. He could have become asymmetrical and ended up in an unrecoverable spin or put himself in a position where the bank bag and reserve interfered with his ability to pull the ripcord.

I’m use brainstorming here, but I’ll bow to your better knowledge on this, Dude.

Chaucer, you have some good points above. 

Why do skydivers have reserves?  Is there a skydiver on this site (including myself) who has not come down on a reserve, some multiple times?

However, in the Cooper jump, he apparently jury-rigged the non-functional reserve to himself.  If Cooper used the non-functional reserve container to carry money, why didn't he leave the canopy in the aircraft?

He would have better survival chances, in my opinion, if he minimized the number of things tied to himself even if only jumped with the backpack.
I would agree.

Also, the parachutes are arguably the most important part of his plan. If he doesn't get chutes or they don't work, he's cooked. They are the essential element to his crime. So why not be more specific in what he wanted? The chutes are his getaway car. Wouldn't he want to make sure the car was filled with gas and wasn't a lumber truck?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3154 on: October 13, 2021, 04:52:27 PM »
was just rummaging around.
here's an old picture of the money, which clearly shows in color the difference between dirty (outer layer?) and clean (inner layer) money

EDIT: however: note there are at least 6 face (portrait) "dirty" money bills there. that's interesting, only 3 would have been "full outer" with their faces facing the weather.

interestingly, there's not any of the purple or dark staining in this picture.

maybe the "dirty" is just the foxing discussed before You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
but why some get fox'ed and not others? maybe some bills were tightly stuck together, and some not?

I find it good for visualizing the bundles.

I think the plastic is maybe fbi evidence bag? Not sure when this is from (what date). .
Bills had been separated

« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 06:34:05 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3155 on: October 13, 2021, 05:18:08 PM »
some old pics that some might not have seen.
I like them for providing context

picture from 1963 two weeks before the national championships that were held at Issaquah.

Linn Emrich is second from left.

Note the jumpship is a old 1929 Travelair

The big bulky reserves in front are kind of huge!
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3156 on: October 13, 2021, 05:25:14 PM »
from the same set of photos in 1963 before the nationals..
here's a pic, taken by Linn Emrich showing a jumper over Issaquah. Can see his container.
This is apparently "on exit" ....dunno where Linn was to take this picture? or remote mount camera?

can see what Issaquah ground looked like from 5000 feet back then.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3157 on: October 13, 2021, 06:02:43 PM »
rummaging around some more...
I love these two pics.

It's amazing that they were findable.

In 1966, Sheridan was teaching at Clark Air Base in the Phillipines. At Wagner High School.
This was right before he went to Vietnam. He did some jumping while he was at Clark Air Base.

He was advisor for the student paper I guess.

these are pages 84 and 85 of the 1966 Wagner High School yearbook.
Sheridan is wearing a skinny tie in the pic on page 84. Can't tell if there's a tie clip.
I remember at the time wondering "Could that actually be Cooper's skinny tie in the page 84 pic?
Is it a clip-on tie?"

on page 85, he's at the bottom at a desk with students around him.

The insane thing is the caption ...I kid you not.

"Alright, we are going to make this the best bomb scare yet!!!"

What the heck was that about? Isn't that wild? (thinking about cooper's bomb). Weird coincidences :)

You might not believe me, or think I modified the pic.
THe two pics are from
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it's also interesting he doesn't mention his time at Clark Air Base in his book..he  pretty much mentions everything else in his life pre-Vietnam, though, in the book.
(childhood, bubbleator, boeing tech writer, other jobs pre-vietnam)

377 had posted some stuff for me at DZ.com when I was banned.
but I notice all the old pics seem to be not attached to old posts anymore.

So these are interesting...you can see what kind of stuff we were rummaging around through, back in the day (2008-2010)

EDIT: have to be careful typing. Hard to see right now. Got cataract surgery on 2nd eye today. 1st eye was great a couple weeks ago. Amazing what a huge difference it makes. Highly recommend if you have cataracts. Amazing to see colors without yellow tinge. Right eye was totally blurred before. Now great!.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 06:17:34 PM by snowmman »
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3158 on: October 13, 2021, 06:39:47 PM »
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Also, the parachutes are arguably the most important part of his plan. If he doesn't get chutes or they don't work, he's cooked. They are the essential element to his crime. So why not be more specific in what he wanted? The chutes are his getaway car. Wouldn't he want to make sure the car was filled with gas and wasn't a lumber truck?

I think you're overthinking this.

Any parachute that was recently packed by a rigger would have been "good enough"

witness dudeman's story about a round reserve being packed for the 16-year old that jumped with him off the Die Hard building. Not even a rig with a forward glide ratio? and the kid jumps without saying nuthin'!

I would ask "Why do you think Cooper needs to be specific about rigs?"

I mean, if he's skilled, anything they give him will be good enough.
He's not doing the world's first BASE jump, so he doesn't need to fly
He just needs to land on the ground slowly. Anything will do, as long as it has a harness he can use.

He can pull any time he wants. He's got somewhere close to 10k altitude. Chop it down to 8k and he's still got plenty of time to exit and stabilize before pulling.

 Really, there's no constraints on the canopy. He can stabilize at 110 mph and anything will work.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 06:50:24 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3159 on: October 13, 2021, 06:47:22 PM »
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There is no report or anything to suggest he jury-rigged the training reserve to himself.
why would you say that he did?

If Cooper took the non-functional reserve with him, he would have to jury-rig it.  Or do you think that he just threw it out the back of the airliner?

It apparently got put on the plane.
It wasn't on the plane when it landed.
Somehow it disappeared. By Cooper's hand? Sure, that's most likely.

Me, if I was kind of worried about the jump, I might toss it out as a poor man's wind indicator, just to see how fast it whooshed out behind the jet..to get me ready for the blast.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3160 on: October 14, 2021, 12:57:47 AM »
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There is no report or anything to suggest he jury-rigged the training reserve to himself.
why would you say that he did?

If Cooper took the non-functional reserve with him, he would have to jury-rig it.  Or do you think that he just threw it out the back of the airliner?

It apparently got put on the plane.
It wasn't on the plane when it landed.
Somehow it disappeared. By Cooper's hand? Sure, that's most likely.

Me, if I was kind of worried about the jump, I might toss it out as a poor man's wind indicator, just to see how fast it whooshed out behind the jet..to get me ready for the blast.

That last sentence above would be a waste of time.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3161 on: October 14, 2021, 09:14:18 AM »
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There is no report or anything to suggest he jury-rigged the training reserve to himself.
why would you say that he did?

If Cooper took the non-functional reserve with him, he would have to jury-rig it.  Or do you think that he just threw it out the back of the airliner?

It apparently got put on the plane.
It wasn't on the plane when it landed.
Somehow it disappeared. By Cooper's hand? Sure, that's most likely.

Me, if I was kind of worried about the jump, I might toss it out as a poor man's wind indicator, just to see how fast it whooshed out behind the jet..to get me ready for the blast.

That last sentence above would be a waste of time.

Were there any Army airborne units at Fort Lewis in 1971? I have not been able to find any reference.  Here is why I ask:

Cooper asked for two fronts and two backs, as far as we know.  His options for describing the chutes would be:

1.  Two fronts and two backs.
2. Two mains and two reserves
3.  A skydiving rig
4. A bailout rig
5. A combination of these
6. Other terms??

Why say two fronts and two backs and not two mains and two reserves?  This tells me he was not a skydiver, or he was trying to hide that he was.  He does not sound like airborne, because he likely would have said two mains/two reserves.  "If my main don't open wide, I've got a reserve by my side."  But, he mentions McChord Air Force Base and not Fort Lewis as where the chutes are coming from. Does this indicate an Air Force background or an Army background?  Why not say the chutes are coming from Lewis or from a skydive center?

I'm on the fence about him using the reserve for the money.  He may have done it, but it was not his original plan.  My suspicion is that he planned to jump with a back and a front, and put the money in a good spot on his body.  The money showing up like it did probably took him off plan.  But to me it makes sense he would want to jump with two chutes.  One because it is normal, two because he did not trust the FBI. 

The language on this had me interested a few years ago. Bruce has a good section in his book on this. 
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3162 on: October 14, 2021, 06:58:58 PM »
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I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute...


If Cossey is to be believed, that may be. But Cossey's credibility is strained due to conflicting statements. If it is true, then the sport main would have the D-rings for the reserve. The bailout rig would not. But I was under the impression that the best evidence was that the two back rigs they gave him were the two bailout rigs belonging to Hayden.

--------

As R99 says, an experienced jumper wears a reserve because parachutes occasionally malfunction. Being prepared for that is part of what makes jumping 'easier'.

-------

As for having a bunch of crap tied to himself making it hard to get the ripcord handle - That is absolutely a valid concern. If he's smart, once he gets everything set up, he checks for that possibility. If something was able to move and give him that problem, he should tie it down more securely. That might also contribute to a decision to pull off the stairs.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3163 on: October 14, 2021, 07:11:15 PM »
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Me, if I was kind of worried about the jump, I might toss it out as a poor man's wind indicator, just to see how fast it whooshed out behind the jet..to get me ready for the blast.

I've actually considered that as well. He specified flaps, wheels down, and a slow airspeed. He might well have wanted to check out the 'prop blast'.

Also, if he was familiar with the Thailand jumps and how the deployment bags got blown upwards, and he was considering pulling off the stairs...
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3164 on: October 14, 2021, 07:20:14 PM »
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If the bailout rig didn't have D-Rings, is there even a way or certified method/technique that exists in the "jumping industry" for attaching a reserve to a bailout rig such that one would expect it to work ?  If yes, then Cooper knew how to do this ?

That's an interesting thought. If he tied it to the harness, it may or may not hold, depending on how well he did it. If he used the thin parachute line to tie it to himself and then deployed it, that would hurt like hell, and possibly be seriously or even fatally injurious.

But no, there's no set 'method' for doing that because it is not a usual practice or necessary.