Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 339400 times)

Offline JAG

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Thanked: 12 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3165 on: October 14, 2021, 08:11:41 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
If the bailout rig didn't have D-Rings, is there even a way or certified method/technique that exists in the "jumping industry" for attaching a reserve to a bailout rig such that one would expect it to work ?  If yes, then Cooper knew how to do this ?

That's an interesting thought. If he tied it to the harness, it may or may not hold, depending on how well he did it. If he used the thin parachute line to tie it to himself and then deployed it, that would hurt like hell, and possibly be seriously or even fatally injurious.

But no, there's no set 'method' for doing that because it is not a usual practice or necessary.

Thanks Dudeman, I was going to follow up with the question of whether or not you have ever heard of it being done ?  (i.e. tying a reserve to a bailout rig ) But it doesn't really make sense right, why would you do that under any normal situation.
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 248
  • Thanked: 76 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3166 on: October 14, 2021, 09:06:46 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
witness dudeman's story about a round reserve being packed for the 16-year old that jumped with him off the Die Hard building. Not even a rig with a forward glide ratio? and the kid jumps without saying nuthin'!


Actually the chute he used did have some forward drive and steerability. On round mains, the 'drive slots' are a series of squarish holes cut out of the bottom back of the canopy, and a couple of them are longer, reaching higher up the canopy. This allows air to escape out the back, giving the drive and steerability. But they invite the 'partial inversion' malfunction, where part of the canopy skirt blows through them and tries to inflate inside out. Reserves would have a couple of the holes but not the longer slots, reducing but not eliminating that possibility. The four line release pretty much eliminated that malfunction. Then at some point, in a true face-palm 'duh!' moment, someone had the brilliant idea of covering those holes with mesh, allowing air through but not material. That's what the kid was jumping.

------

Cooper choosing a better chute - If he had the option of a steerable chute, that would help him get into a better landing area and avoid obstacles such as trees or a rocky hillside.

-------

The 'Pursuit' movie stunt - Obviously Carl Boenish is gone. Kevin Donnelly passed away some years ago from cancer. Same with Dean Westgaard many years ago. Ray Cottingham is still around. NickyB contacted him a while back on Facebook, but he didn't have a lot to say. Not familiar with the other two. I don't know this to be fact, but knowing a bit about how such things are done, if they had three cameramen and three other jumpers, they likely had three Cooper's. (At least two.) Two loads times three pairs would give them six jumps to choose edits from. The landing shot is likely a separate thing.
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Thanked: 421 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3167 on: October 15, 2021, 03:59:00 AM »
Cooper had no trouble donning an NB rig. That tells me he was no stranger to parachutes. The FBI supplied instructions for using the parachute rigs but Cooper didn’t bother to read them. The very specific flight configuration demands he gave to the pilots tell me he was no stranger to aircraft and airdrops. None of the foregoing proves he ever jumped before but I’ll bet he wore a parachute rig before and had some involvement with airdrops of cargo, personnel or both.

I vividly recall my initial reaction to the T Bar money find. I was certain the case would be solved soon. Little did I know that decades later I would own one of those twenties and the Cooper mystery would be no closer to solution than it was before the find. .

Life in the Vortex. Do you spin in the opposite direction south of the equator? Is there any way out? Asking for a friend.

377





 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812, Kari

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 835
  • Thanked: 166 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3168 on: November 08, 2021, 07:30:49 PM »
It’s been a minute since I’ve engaged this particular discussion, but I want to double down on it. By the way, much thanks to dudeman and 377 for sharing their thoughts.

Here is what I’m stuck on:

If this jump is so easy then anyone - even a novice or whuffo - could have pulled it off. If all one has to do is know how to pull the ripcord, then any jump experience is utterly unnecessary. Therefore, any suspect does NOT have to have jump experience. All he has to do is have a basic knowledge of chutes.

Granted, DBC seemed to display some knowledge, but knowing how to put on a rig and what the best configuration is for a jump is something one could have learned simply by asking.

It seems that many in the Vortex want it both ways:  they want to claim the jump was no sweat, but also advocate for Cooper to be some super-experienced skydiver. If the jump is as easy as the experts claim, then jumping expertise is not necessary.
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1508
  • Thanked: 170 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3169 on: November 09, 2021, 12:15:44 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Cooper had no trouble donning an NB rig. That tells me he was no stranger to parachutes. The FBI supplied instructions for using the parachute rigs but Cooper didn’t bother to read them. The very specific flight configuration demands he gave to the pilots tell me he was no stranger to aircraft and airdrops. None of the foregoing proves he ever jumped before but I’ll bet he wore a parachute rig before and had some involvement with airdrops of cargo, personnel or both.

I vividly recall my initial reaction to the T Bar money find. I was certain the case would be solved soon. Little did I know that decades later I would own one of those twenties and the Cooper mystery would be no closer to solution than it was before the find. .

Life in the Vortex. Do you spin in the opposite direction south of the equator? Is there any way out? Asking for a friend.

377

I don't think there is any conclusive evidence one way or the other on the spin matter.  And if there is any evidence at all it will probably be very weak.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4149
  • Thanked: 383 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3170 on: November 10, 2021, 07:28:25 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute...


If Cossey is to be believed, that may be. But Cossey's credibility is strained due to conflicting statements. If it is true, then the sport main would have the D-rings for the reserve. The bailout rig would not. But I was under the impression that the best evidence was that the two back rigs they gave him were the two bailout rigs belonging to Hayden.


Yup. That's my current understanding based upon the two Pioneer/Steinthal packing cards found. In Reno we have SN 60-6097 and we have SN 226 from the chute returned to Hayden and now in the WSHM.
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 835
  • Thanked: 166 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3171 on: November 10, 2021, 10:12:30 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute...


If Cossey is to be believed, that may be. But Cossey's credibility is strained due to conflicting statements. If it is true, then the sport main would have the D-rings for the reserve. The bailout rig would not. But I was under the impression that the best evidence was that the two back rigs they gave him were the two bailout rigs belonging to Hayden.


Yup. That's my current understanding based upon the two Pioneer/Steinthal packing cards found. In Reno we have SN 60-6097 and we have SN 226 from the chute returned to Hayden and now in the WSHM.
Identical?
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1508
  • Thanked: 170 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3172 on: November 10, 2021, 10:34:11 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute...


If Cossey is to be believed, that may be. But Cossey's credibility is strained due to conflicting statements. If it is true, then the sport main would have the D-rings for the reserve. The bailout rig would not. But I was under the impression that the best evidence was that the two back rigs they gave him were the two bailout rigs belonging to Hayden.


Yup. That's my current understanding based upon the two Pioneer/Steinthal packing cards found. In Reno we have SN 60-6097 and we have SN 226 from the chute returned to Hayden and now in the WSHM.
Identical?

Bruce interviewed Hayden and was shown the parachute that was returned to him and which is now in the WSHM.  Bruce can answer this conclusively but he has posted that Hayden told him the parachutes were the same which translates to identical or something very close to it.  If they were identical, or close to it, then neither parachute was an NB6 or NB8.

Has any progress been made on getting the WSHM's permission to have a rigger open the chute they have and get the identifying numbers and information?
 
The following users thanked this post: Chaucer

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9205
  • Thanked: 969 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3173 on: November 10, 2021, 11:50:07 PM »
Quote
Has any progress been made on getting the WSHM's permission to have a rigger open the chute they have and get the identifying numbers and information?

Sadly, no. I have always got a rather quick response from them in the past. the new manager did introduce herself prior to my email but never responded. I will send another email and see what happens. she did explain they were working on new exhibits and getting settled back in from the lockdown...
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Thanked: 421 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3174 on: November 11, 2021, 03:33:24 AM »
“ If they were identical, or close to it, then neither parachute was an NB6 or NB8.”
Just a friendly reminder, NB 6 and NB 8 are Navy Back harness and container items not parachute canopies.
NB 6 in Navy service normally contained a 26 ft conical canopy. The NB 8 normally contained a 28 ft C9 round canopy.

377
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 03:34:11 AM by 377 »
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Thanked: 421 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3175 on: November 11, 2021, 03:43:19 AM »
I’m not a rigger but am capable of opening, inspecting and repacking the Norman Hayden rig the WSHM has.
It would be free of course. The rig is way out of date so it would need a rigger inspection and repack before being put back into service as an emergency rig. My unlicensed work wouldn’t endanger anyone.

Best bet is to hire a real rigger. Should cost about $60-80. 

377
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1508
  • Thanked: 170 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3176 on: November 11, 2021, 01:45:29 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
“ If they were identical, or close to it, then neither parachute was an NB6 or NB8.”
Just a friendly reminder, NB 6 and NB 8 are Navy Back harness and container items not parachute canopies.
NB 6 in Navy service normally contained a 26 ft conical canopy. The NB 8 normally contained a 28 ft C9 round canopy.

377

Bruce has posted pictures of Hayden with his remaining back parachute on.  The harness is clearly not an NB6 harness.  I have never seen an NB8 harness but assume it is similar to the NB6. 
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1568
  • Thanked: 421 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3177 on: November 11, 2021, 04:54:06 PM »
As I recall NB 6 and NB 8 look nearly identical with the 8 having larger volume in the container.

377
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9205
  • Thanked: 969 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3178 on: November 11, 2021, 07:35:07 PM »
I sent another email to WSHS. I will also try to contact them regarding the repacking of the chute..

Sorry, I meant contact them by phone also...
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 10:04:51 PM by Shutter »
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline DBfan57

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 258
  • Thanked: 15 times
Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3179 on: November 13, 2021, 07:12:47 AM »
I did not want to get in the way and post in Cooper Con thread.  But that article EU posted, can you imagine if he is still alive and out there?  How could he resist showing up just out of curiosity?  Perhaps that is why he has never been caught.  But it its likely 60/40 or so against him being alive, but who knows?  People live well into their 90s and beyond.  I just hope he quit the smokes. Or switched to lights. Keep your eyes out for old men with sunglass's.  Would anyone know its him anyway?  Would Tina even know?  Recognize his voice perhaps?  We  can all wish for such an event to  come true but i'ts highly unlikely don't you think?    I for one do NOT believe Himmelsbach and his theory.  No way.  But DB Cooper being alive now is another story.   Buts its certainly possible.