Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 339423 times)

Offline dudeman17

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3135 on: October 09, 2021, 09:23:00 PM »
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2)  The vast majority of fatalities in base jumping are not caused by parachute malfunctions.
I'm curious. What causes most base jumping fatalities?


A few things. One of the major causes, especially in the early days, would be off-heading openings resulting in striking the object you just jumped from. Base jumping is done with square parachutes. They have a forward speed immediately upon opening. (Even in skydiving, they are packed with the brakes stowed at half, to reduce that speed and because they open better that way, but they still have some speed. A lot of base jumpers use deeper brake stows to further reduce the surge.) You do what you can in the pack job to try to ensure on-heading openings, but you can not guarantee it, so you better be ready to control the heading during and immediately after the opening. This can be practiced on skydives, where an off-heading opening is not that big of a deal. Striking the object can injure or kill you itself, it can collapse the parachute, and it can contribute to landing in a bad area. Another cause is an unstable exit resulting in a roll or over-rotation, resulting in trying to deploy in a bad body position and having the pilot chute bridle (or other part of the canopy) entangle with the jumper. This is much more of a problem on base jumps than on skydives because the airspeed on deployment is usually far lower. Sometimes people have had bad exits, spent too much time trying to work it out and just pulled too low. One malfunction that was a problem was a line-over. For a low altitude, low airspeed jump, you pack the parachute to open extremely quickly. One of the techniques for doing that increases the possibility of one of the brake lines getting over the top, distorting the canopy and causing it to spin. Landing like that could severely injure or kill you. So pretty quickly was developed a method for releasing that brake line, allowing the canopy to fully inflate, then using the rear riser to steer and flare that side. In modern base jumping, with the prevalence of wingsuit proximity flying, a huge cause is simply people getting used to being in freefall mere feet from the ground. If you get comfortable flying your wingsuit four feet off the ground through trees, you've really got nowhere to go but in.

But just doing a normal jump, deploying normally, then having your parachute simply fail to inflate, that really hasn't been a problem.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3136 on: October 09, 2021, 09:37:04 PM »
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The scary case I would see, is jumping off a wall with wind (like El Cap!)

seems like it would be way easy to not realize a wind draft that might blow you back into the wall, or not enough glide in the right direction to get you away from the approaching sloped wall.

Seems like similar problems with wingsuits..misjudging lift/speed/wind/air density (like due to weather)

Arguably no parachute/wingsuit malfunction, but still, things don't give you the lift in the right direction that you expected?


Proper wind assessment and decision making is a MAJOR component of safe(r) base jumping. Winds are not unpredictable. Assessing wind speed and direction, and understanding the effect of upwind and downwind topography is an essential skill. Simply put, if it's too windy, don't jump. "Too windy" differs with different locations and jump types. Most of it concerns canopy opening and flight, but with low altitude wingsuit proximity flying, possible turbulence through flying lines is crucial.
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3137 on: October 10, 2021, 03:47:27 AM »
So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:

Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?
 

Offline JAG

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3138 on: October 10, 2021, 06:33:33 AM »
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:

Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?

If the bailout rig didn't have D-Rings, is there even a way or certified method/technique that exists in the "jumping industry" for attaching a reserve to a bailout rig such that one would expect it to work ?  If yes, then Cooper knew how to do this ?   
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3139 on: October 10, 2021, 01:39:05 PM »
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:

Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?

If the bailout rig didn't have D-Rings, is there even a way or certified method/technique that exists in the "jumping industry" for attaching a reserve to a bailout rig such that one would expect it to work ?  If yes, then Cooper knew how to do this ?

dudeman or 377 might comment on this,
but: even if he tied the reserve on with cord...it's not like it would have gave him some more safety? He didn't have any way to cutaway a fouled main. So if he deployed a reserve with a fouled main overhead, he might just still be f*ed up.

dudeman has commented on aspects of the bailout rig that gave it increased likelihood of non-malfunction.
The idea of reserve or no-reserve seems not interesting in terms of anything related to decreased risk, or cooper skill level.
 
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3140 on: October 10, 2021, 09:07:32 PM »
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:

Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?


The fact that Cooper used the bailout rig is primarily indicative of that's what they gave him. He asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. That sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, sport mains and the reserves that go with them. Instead of sport mains, they gave him bailout rigs. Bailout rigs do not use additional reserves because they ARE reserves. The design of the canopy is for opening reliability rather than the flight performance a sport main might have. Unlike sport mains, they are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and at regular intervals whether they are used or not. The theory in an aviation situation that might involve parachutes is that you want to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Aerobatic pilots or military aircrew take bailout rigs because their type of flying might require them to bail out. They don't intend to, and in effect their airplane is their main. A sport jumper intends to jump and use his main, so he takes a reserve in case it malfunctions. Mains might have design parameters to increase their flight performance that might increase the possibility of malfunction. I have heard the analogy that a skydiver wears a reserve for the same reason a driver wears a seatbelt. I prefer to compare it to a spare tire. I tell my students not to regard a malfunction as a near death experience, but more like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3141 on: October 10, 2021, 09:12:38 PM »
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:

Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?


The fact that Cooper used the bailout rig is primarily indicative of that's what they gave him. He asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. That sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, sport mains and the reserves that go with them. Instead of sport mains, they gave him bailout rigs. Bailout rigs do not use additional reserves because they ARE reserves. The design of the canopy is for opening reliability rather than the flight performance a sport main might have. Unlike sport mains, they are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and at regular intervals whether they are used or not. The theory in an aviation situation that might involve parachutes is that you want to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Aerobatic pilots or military aircrew take bailout rigs because their type of flying might require them to bail out. They don't intend to, and in effect their airplane is their main. A sport jumper intends to jump and use his main, so he takes a reserve in case it malfunctions. Mains might have design parameters to increase their flight performance that might increase the possibility of malfunction. I have heard the analogy that a skydiver wears a reserve for the same reason a driver wears a seatbelt. I prefer to compare it to a spare tire. I tell my students not to regard a malfunction as a near death experience, but more like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day.

Dudeman, let me remind everyone that you are talking about the 2020 era with square canopies and not the 1970 era with round canopies.  It is agreed that during a malfunction of any kind the first thing you need to do is keep your cool and work on solving your problem.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 09:14:08 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3142 on: October 10, 2021, 10:23:06 PM »
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Dudeman, let me remind everyone that you are talking about the 2020 era with square canopies and not the 1970 era with round canopies.  It is agreed that during a malfunction of any kind the first thing you need to do is keep your cool and work on solving your problem.


The things I described above are timeless. I started on gutter gear and rounds, and everything I described applied as much then as they do now. Even more so. Other than the zero-porosity material, elliptical shapes and high aspect ratio of today's higher performance squares, many lower performance square mains are more similar to square reserves than were the round mains and reserves of yesteryear. The huge drive slots in round mains invited the types of partial inversions that you experienced. That's why the four line release system I described was popular on reserves, as they eliminated drive slots/holes altogether for deployment. And you would not have found a round reserve that was anywhere near the design of the popular Para Commander class of canopy.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 10:43:54 PM by dudeman17 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3143 on: October 10, 2021, 11:31:56 PM »
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:

Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?


The fact that Cooper used the bailout rig is primarily indicative of that's what they gave him. He asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. That sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, sport mains and the reserves that go with them. Instead of sport mains, they gave him bailout rigs. Bailout rigs do not use additional reserves because they ARE reserves. The design of the canopy is for opening reliability rather than the flight performance a sport main might have. Unlike sport mains, they are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and at regular intervals whether they are used or not. The theory in an aviation situation that might involve parachutes is that you want to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Aerobatic pilots or military aircrew take bailout rigs because their type of flying might require them to bail out. They don't intend to, and in effect their airplane is their main. A sport jumper intends to jump and use his main, so he takes a reserve in case it malfunctions. Mains might have design parameters to increase their flight performance that might increase the possibility of malfunction. I have heard the analogy that a skydiver wears a reserve for the same reason a driver wears a seatbelt. I prefer to compare it to a spare tire. I tell my students not to regard a malfunction as a near death experience, but more like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day.

All very interesting. I wonder if Cooper knew the difference and what his reaction was? It didnt seem to slow him down. He selected and began putting on a chute almost immediately, according to the stews ... 
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 04:57:02 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3144 on: October 11, 2021, 05:01:34 AM »
Please remember that the reserve chute may have been used as a secondary pouch for the money that didn't fit well in the SeaFirst bag.
 

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3145 on: October 12, 2021, 11:52:40 PM »
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:

Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?


The fact that Cooper used the bailout rig is primarily indicative of that's what they gave him. He asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. That sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, sport mains and the reserves that go with them. Instead of sport mains, they gave him bailout rigs. Bailout rigs do not use additional reserves because they ARE reserves. The design of the canopy is for opening reliability rather than the flight performance a sport main might have. Unlike sport mains, they are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and at regular intervals whether they are used or not. The theory in an aviation situation that might involve parachutes is that you want to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Aerobatic pilots or military aircrew take bailout rigs because their type of flying might require them to bail out. They don't intend to, and in effect their airplane is their main. A sport jumper intends to jump and use his main, so he takes a reserve in case it malfunctions. Mains might have design parameters to increase their flight performance that might increase the possibility of malfunction. I have heard the analogy that a skydiver wears a reserve for the same reason a driver wears a seatbelt. I prefer to compare it to a spare tire. I tell my students not to regard a malfunction as a near death experience, but more like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day.
I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute. Plus the two chest reserves? The FBI has used his selection of the NB-8 as evidence that he was inexperienced and chose the inferior chute.

What I’m getting at is:  if jumping out of airplanes is easy and if Cooper is experienced, then why ask for a reserve?

Second, with a bailout rig, a reserve fastened haphazardly to him, plus a bank bag tied haphazardly to him seems indicative to him of someone either really inexperienced or someone utterly reckless. He could have become asymmetrical and ended up in an unrecoverable spin or put himself in a position where the bank bag and reserve interfered with his ability to pull the ripcord.

I’m use brainstorming here, but I’ll bow to your better knowledge on this, Dude.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3146 on: October 13, 2021, 12:28:42 AM »
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What I’m getting at is:  if jumping out of airplanes is easy and if Cooper is experienced, then why ask for a reserve?
 

One could label some things Cooper did as disguise:
1) sunglasses
2) smoking
3) saying "front" and "back" chutes like a whuffo.
4) Wearing a suit.
5) timing things for a night jump
6) timing things for a thanksgiving jump?

If he had clearly announced what he wanted and where to get them, that would have been a pretty strong tipoff he was experienced.

Look at it this way: only dumb whuffo FBI would not see thru all the obvious attempts at disguise.

An expert doesn't need much to jump the 727. Making himself look inexperienced takes advantage of his experience, to create confusion for his pursuers.

I mean, he picked the night jump. He picked the time he knew he'd be jumping at ...evening.

Now things that really did matter, he gave exact instructions on
1) flaps
2) speed
3) altitude

so he betrayed some knowledge there, because it was critical to his success. The other stuff wasn't critical. (in terms of how authorities responded)

That sounds like good planning. He knew he could handle a night jump, but his pursuers would have a hard time finding him at night.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 12:30:43 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3147 on: October 13, 2021, 12:33:41 AM »
The problem Chaucer, is you want linear thinking.

linear thinking didn't solve Z340

Why expect it to solve Cooper's thinking?

Go a little non-linear. You need to get a little drunk, and get a little more pissed off, and be thinking about fucking the system.
Sure the money is nice, but secondary I think.
The drive to do it, comes from a fuck-you to the system. (some aspect of society) I think. Gotta be pissed off.

EDIT: I don't think it's a fuck-you to a person. A hijack is more about bureaucracies and bigger statements about the world.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 12:35:12 AM by snowmman »
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3148 on: October 13, 2021, 01:06:05 AM »
I have no problem thinking outside the box, but I’d rather stay in the realm of reality and not imagination. There’s no evidence to suggest that any of the things you suggested were red herrings. It’s pure speculation which is fine, but none of that be proven. If we go down that road we could imagine all sorts of scenarios and wild theories.

All I’m trying to do is get a read on Cooper’s experience or lack thereof. If he was he was experienced and jumping out of a 727 in the dark is easy, then a reserve is an unnecessary complication. If he used the reserve with the D rings then he was a novice or totally reckless.

I’m looking at the facts at hand and trying to make sense of it in a rational fashion. That said, I fully admit that I do not have the knowledge base of Dudeman and 377 and others.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #3149 on: October 13, 2021, 01:15:47 AM »
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So, - and this is pure speculation - is Cooper's use of a reserve in addition of a bailout chute indicative of a novice jumper? If skydiving is so easy that all you have to do is "pull the ripcord", then why ask for a reserve necessary? Moreover, why is a reserve chute necessary for an experienced jumper if jumping out of the back of a jetliner is easier than parallel parking?:

Also, since bailout chutes like the one Cooper chose aren't used with reserves, then isn't it possible that a reserve chute on his midsection, along with a bag of money enough to prevent his right hand from reaching the ripcord?


The fact that Cooper used the bailout rig is primarily indicative of that's what they gave him. He asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. That sounds to me like he was asking for two complete rigs, sport mains and the reserves that go with them. Instead of sport mains, they gave him bailout rigs. Bailout rigs do not use additional reserves because they ARE reserves. The design of the canopy is for opening reliability rather than the flight performance a sport main might have. Unlike sport mains, they are required to be packed by a licensed FAA rigger, and at regular intervals whether they are used or not. The theory in an aviation situation that might involve parachutes is that you want to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Aerobatic pilots or military aircrew take bailout rigs because their type of flying might require them to bail out. They don't intend to, and in effect their airplane is their main. A sport jumper intends to jump and use his main, so he takes a reserve in case it malfunctions. Mains might have design parameters to increase their flight performance that might increase the possibility of malfunction. I have heard the analogy that a skydiver wears a reserve for the same reason a driver wears a seatbelt. I prefer to compare it to a spare tire. I tell my students not to regard a malfunction as a near death experience, but more like getting a flat tire on your car. Swap it out and get on with your day.
I thought they gave him a bailout rig (NB-8) and a sport chute. Plus the two chest reserves? The FBI has used his selection of the NB-8 as evidence that he was inexperienced and chose the inferior chute.

What I’m getting at is:  if jumping out of airplanes is easy and if Cooper is experienced, then why ask for a reserve?

Second, with a bailout rig, a reserve fastened haphazardly to him, plus a bank bag tied haphazardly to him seems indicative to him of someone either really inexperienced or someone utterly reckless. He could have become asymmetrical and ended up in an unrecoverable spin or put himself in a position where the bank bag and reserve interfered with his ability to pull the ripcord.

I’m use brainstorming here, but I’ll bow to your better knowledge on this, Dude.

Chaucer, you have some good points above. 

Why do skydivers have reserves?  Is there a skydiver on this site (including myself) who has not come down on a reserve, some multiple times?

However, in the Cooper jump, he apparently jury-rigged the non-functional reserve to himself.  If Cooper used the non-functional reserve container to carry money, why didn't he leave the canopy in the aircraft?

He would have better survival chances, in my opinion, if he minimized the number of things tied to himself even if only jumped with the backpack.
 
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