Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 588839 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7335 on: September 19, 2021, 05:22:48 PM »
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page 309 is interesting. SAC J. E. Milnes wrote it saying

"SA <redacted> from Chicago called and advised that they had interviewed a former Agent now with FAA who advised that very likely the photograph of <redacted> would be sent to the FAA Headquarters in Washington. I told him that if we did not get a photograph of him [apparently referencing the "RE: <redacted>" subject] from <redacted> then we would try to get one from Washington."


seems to suggest that the suspect had a picture with FAA somehow? maybe pilot or ??


on page 310, it says the suspect was fingerprinted by the "Civil Service Commission on <redacted> and has FBI <redacted>"

not sure what that all means

then on page 311 SA Charles E. Farrell writes up a description of a suspect, who has a long arrest record.

it's not clear if it's the same suspect. The writeup is on 11/27/71
it references someone "said <redacted>" on November 8, 1971

then there's a handwritten "Open File on Suspect"

But the next page talks about sending a photo to witnesses at Seattle. Says photo is to be returned to Tacoma Police Dept. So they must have got a photo from Tacoma Police..

could be a different suspect, but could be the same suspect.

all of those reports from 11/27/71

If the Civil Service Commission had fingerprinted him it means that he was a government employee in some unspecified agency. 

If the FAA had a picture of him, it probably means that he had a pilot's license at some point in the early 1950s.  Personally, I was fingerprinted at the age of about 15 or 16 by the USAF in order to ride on USAF aircraft.  In the very early 1950s, at the start of the Korean War, all pilots had to submit in person to an FAA office a fingerprint card and a passport-type photograph and were then issued what was known as an Airman's Identification Card.  The AICs were discontinued after a few years. 

I was also fingerprinted several times during my military service and while working in the Department of Defense.  It is my understanding that all of these fingerprint cards eventually ended up in the FBI files.  So I have an FBI file as does everyone who has served in the military or worked for the government.

If the FAA had a picture of this suspect, it means that he was probably at least 40 years old in 1971 at the time of the hijacking.  And that the FBI had received his fingerprints from both the FAA and the Civil Service Commission. 
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 05:25:51 PM by Robert99 »
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7336 on: September 19, 2021, 10:44:43 PM »
Thanks to all for the comments and extra digging !  Based on what snowmman found, it seems like 3 witnesses said it wasn't him.  If it's truly unrelated, it's certainly a hell of a coincidence. 

Do these documents ever become unredacted ?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 10:45:37 PM by JAG »
 

Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7337 on: September 19, 2021, 11:09:51 PM »
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Thanks to all for the comments and extra digging !  Based on what snowmman found, it seems like 3 witnesses said it wasn't him.  If it's truly unrelated, it's certainly a hell of a coincidence. 

Do these documents ever become unredacted ?


If you step back from the coincidence and instead think like someone who's going to risk his life or jailtime, it's unlikely his planning "started" the day before the hijack with questions to a stewardess.

I mean, ask questions one day, hijack the next? Seems unlikely.
 

Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7338 on: September 19, 2021, 11:25:31 PM »
This eyewitness description hasn't been discussed to death yet.

I like it, because it fits my view of Cooper's personality that night as "give-no-fuck".

While skydivers might understand  the "give-no-fuck" attitude, I don't think the FBI ever really comprehended that...and it morphed into "unskilled" "incompetent" etc.

Never underestimate the power in "give-no-fuck". Can outperform the status-quo. Sure it sometimes result in death when statistics catch up, but it's great for creating information about where the boundaries are in any endeavor. (or what technologies need improving! like for wingsuits)


This is from page 30 of the Colbert FOIA files: TJC-FOIA-FBI-Section-1-Part-2A-118-Pages-11-26-71-to-11-28-71.pdf

It's not clear if it's the guy that sold Cooper a ticket, or someone else at the counter.

Love how he says he "has a habit of noticing individuals dressed in black"

And re: Cooper

"The man described above had a 'blah' attitude and was quite unaffected by the inclement weather conditions prevailing at the time, which noticeably bothered the rest of the passengers"

The other passengers were talking about getting wet walking out to the plane.

I'll see if I can find this page in the normal FBI vault files. The 302 is just one page. Subsequent pages talk about copies of this FD-302, which was of someone working for Northwest, at Portland International Airport. Name is redacted.

EDIT: yeah it's fbi file 11 page 324
I don't think anything is uniquely present in the colbert site files, is it?

EDIT: fascinating how sometimes the FBI SA name is redacted, like on this page, and sometimes not. Is the person who wrote this report still working for FBI when this pdf was released? strange.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 11:58:56 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7339 on: September 19, 2021, 11:36:40 PM »
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Thanks to all for the comments and extra digging !  Based on what snowmman found, it seems like 3 witnesses said it wasn't him.  If it's truly unrelated, it's certainly a hell of a coincidence. 

Do these documents ever become unredacted ?

agree! one helluva coincidence ? lottery odds! 
 

Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7340 on: September 19, 2021, 11:46:26 PM »
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Thanks to all for the comments and extra digging !  Based on what snowmman found, it seems like 3 witnesses said it wasn't him.  If it's truly unrelated, it's certainly a hell of a coincidence. 

Do these documents ever become unredacted ?

agree! one helluva coincidence ? lottery odds!

lottery odds? that event is nothing compared to the following about serials found on Tena Bar..

Two of the Heritage Auction bills found on Tena Bar (there's only about 40)
are sequential in the FBI ransom list.
I had mentioned this before.

YET IT GETS BETTER!
There are two pairs of notes that are each sequential within the FBI ransom list, that were found on Tena BAR! I hadn't noticed the second pair because I think they weren't auctioned.

What's the odds for that! lottery**2

New:
And! according to Flyjack they are in a photo of the 12 bundles on FBI press day....both are "top" notes on bundles. PLUS they are sequential in the sorted FBI list!!

# page 164 of fbi file 55, group D, rows 46 and 47
I02442844A 1969 164 46 D TOP BILL OF 12
I02591811A 1969 164 47 D TOP BILL OF 12

The ones I mentioned before that are heritage auction
# fbi file 55 page 168 group C rows 28 and 29
L03160387B 1963A 168 28 C
L03166965B 1963A 168 29 C

# their pics
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L03166965B 1963A You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Explain those 4 notes!


« Last Edit: September 19, 2021, 11:49:03 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7341 on: September 19, 2021, 11:48:17 PM »
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Thanks to all for the comments and extra digging !  Based on what snowmman found, it seems like 3 witnesses said it wasn't him.  If it's truly unrelated, it's certainly a hell of a coincidence. 

Do these documents ever become unredacted ?

agree! one helluva coincidence ? lottery odds!

lottery odds? that event is nothing compared to the following about serials found on Tena Bar..

Two of the Heritage Auction bills found on Tena Bar (there's only about 40)
are sequential in the FBI ransom list.
I had mentioned this before.

YET IT GETS BETTER!
There are two pairs of notes that are sequential in the FBI ransom list, that were found on Tena BAR! I hadn't noticed the second pair because I think they weren't auctioned.

What's the odds for that! lottery**2

New:
And! according to Flyjack they are in a photo of the 12 bundles on FBI press day....both are "top" notes on bundles. PLUS they are sequential in the sorted FBI list!!

# page 164 of fbi file 55, group D, rows 46 and 47
I02442844A 1969 164 46 D TOP BILL OF 12
I02591811A 1969 164 47 D TOP BILL OF 12

The ones I mentioned before that are heritage auction
# fbi file 55 page 168 group C rows 28 and 29
L03160387B 1963A 168 28 C
L03166965B 1963A 168 29 C

# their pics
L03160387B 1963A You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
L03166965B 1963A You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


Explain those 4 notes!

unreal.   
 

Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7342 on: September 19, 2021, 11:50:36 PM »
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unreal.

It's enough to wonder about whether "random" bill groupings to cooper wasn't "random" according to any accepted test :)

or maybe cooper sorted some bills before he planted them!
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 12:00:22 AM by snowmman »
 
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Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7343 on: September 20, 2021, 01:49:41 AM »
Northwest Airlines fleet list as of Jan 12, 1971
dunno if this was published before
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They had a lot of 727's
broken out as
B-727/1 (20)
B-727/2 (24)
B-727C/3 (12)

N467US is shown as B-727/1 NWA no 467, serial number 18803

I guess it was relatively early off the Boeing assembly line.
other data shows it as delivered 4/22/65

nice pic of N467US from July 31, 1968 at Portland
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Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7344 on: September 20, 2021, 01:54:31 AM »
in 1971, tickets were handed to the customer inside a "ticket jacket"
the Northwest 1971 ticket jacket would have looked like this

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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7345 on: September 20, 2021, 11:38:44 PM »
Who was this guy (a Federal employee with prints and photo on file) who was asking these questions on a Midwestern (Chicago area) NWA flight the day before the Cooper hijacking in Washington State ? Why was he asking these questions, engaging with crew on the flight, in a public discussion, overheard by anyone and everyone? Why would this guy pick this particular time to ask 'how a hijacking could be conducted' with specifics that duplicate the Cooper hijacking a day later? The only thing missing is discussion about a bomb!

Was Cooper on this flight? Why does this guy not fit the Cooper description?

If three people looked at this guy's photo and said he was not the hijacker, was he overheard by Cooper who was on this flight ?

Did the FBI investigate this guy's circle of friends etc ? Doesn't look like they did ?

Why was this guy asking these particular questions at this particular time; It's an outline for the Cooper hijacking which then happens the next day on another NWA flight 305! 
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 12:05:56 AM by georger »
 
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Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7346 on: September 21, 2021, 12:12:16 AM »
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Who was this guy (a Federal employee with prints and photo on file) who was asking these questions on a Midwestern (Chicago area) NWA flight the day before the Cooper hijacking in Washington State ? Why was he asking these questions, engaging with crew on the flight, in a public discussion, overheard by anyone and everyone? Why would this guy pick this particular time to ask 'how a hijacking could be conducted' with specifics that duplicate the Cooper hijacking a day later? The only thing missing is discussion about a bomb!

Was Cooper on this flight? Why does this guy not fit the Cooper description?

If three people looked at this guy's photo and said he was not the hijacker, was he overheard by Cooper who was on this flight ?

Did the FBI investigate this guy's circle of friends etc ? Doesn't look like they did ?

Why was this guy asking these particular questions at this particular time; It's an outline for the Cooper hijacking which then happens the next day on another NWA flight 305!

But it's ridiculous asking those questions of apparently a stewardess, right?

I mean, there's no way a stewardess would know. It's more likely the classic situation of a guy trying to make some kind of small talk with a stewardess.

If I was going to rob a bank, would I start asking a security guard about the vault and when the most money is in the vault? The day before I robbed it?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7347 on: September 21, 2021, 03:04:58 AM »
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Who was this guy (a Federal employee with prints and photo on file) who was asking these questions on a Midwestern (Chicago area) NWA flight the day before the Cooper hijacking in Washington State ? Why was he asking these questions, engaging with crew on the flight, in a public discussion, overheard by anyone and everyone? Why would this guy pick this particular time to ask 'how a hijacking could be conducted' with specifics that duplicate the Cooper hijacking a day later? The only thing missing is discussion about a bomb!

Was Cooper on this flight? Why does this guy not fit the Cooper description?

If three people looked at this guy's photo and said he was not the hijacker, was he overheard by Cooper who was on this flight ?

Did the FBI investigate this guy's circle of friends etc ? Doesn't look like they did ?

Why was this guy asking these particular questions at this particular time; It's an outline for the Cooper hijacking which then happens the next day on another NWA flight 305!

But it's ridiculous asking those questions of apparently a stewardess, right?

I mean, there's no way a stewardess would know. It's more likely the classic situation of a guy trying to make some kind of small talk with a stewardess.

If I was going to rob a bank, would I start asking a security guard about the vault and when the most money is in the vault? The day before I robbed it?

Further, it is very unlikely that an NWA stewardress would know that the airliner could be flown with the aft stairs down (unless she had read an article in a 1964 issue of Flight Magazine), or in the configuration specified,  since even the NWA 305 flight crew didn't know that initially.  And in any event, Cooper claimed that he knew that it could take off with the aft stairs down (but unlocked).
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7348 on: September 21, 2021, 07:21:07 AM »
I believe the documents say he had this dialogue with the "crew".  Can the crew also include the pilots ?  If so, perhaps he didn't ask the stewardess's these questions...

I have always thought that Cooper was planning this for some time, (although I am open to the theory that he may have been inspired by the failed Paul Cini attempt 11 days earlier).  But I don't think that means he couldn't have been prepping up until the last minute so to speak.

The bank robber and security guard analogy is a good point.  But maybe this dude had that F*** it and confident attitude, that he wasn't going to be caught.  Too bad the 302s don't include how this guy was dressed, wouldn't it be a hoot if he was dressed like Coop with sun glasses and all? 

Anyway, I am not saying that this guy was Coop...but my mind had some of the same questions Georger outlined a few posts up.

And yes, those consecutive serial numbers is an amazing find, that was some tenacious work snow !

Cheers folks !

 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7349 on: September 21, 2021, 01:40:13 PM »
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I believe the documents say he had this dialogue with the "crew".  Can the crew also include the pilots ?  If so, perhaps he didn't ask the stewardess's these questions...

I have always thought that Cooper was planning this for some time, (although I am open to the theory that he may have been inspired by the failed Paul Cini attempt 11 days earlier).  But I don't think that means he couldn't have been prepping up until the last minute so to speak.

The bank robber and security guard analogy is a good point.  But maybe this dude had that F*** it and confident attitude, that he wasn't going to be caught.  Too bad the 302s don't include how this guy was dressed, wouldn't it be a hoot if he was dressed like Coop with sun glasses and all? 

Anyway, I am not saying that this guy was Coop...but my mind had some of the same questions Georger outlined a few posts up.

And yes, those consecutive serial numbers is an amazing find, that was some tenacious work snow !

Cheers folks !

The conversation might have occurred in the boarding area, in the airport, . . .