Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 588871 times)

Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7350 on: September 21, 2021, 07:18:20 PM »
Those sequential serials that Snow found are driving me nuts. That T Bar money is haunted, cursed and downright contrary.

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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7351 on: September 21, 2021, 08:32:54 PM »
The heritage auction pair is easily verified with the links I provided.
Double checking Flyjacks claim of these 2 serials being top bills in the 12 bundles the fbi showed..
I02442844A 1969 164 46 D TOP BILL OF 12
I02591811A 1969 164 47 D TOP BILL OF 12

In the attached picture, I02442844A is in the bottom row, 2nd from left
I02591811A is middle row, 2nd from left.

interesting question as to whether those 2 mini-bundles were in the same original packet when there was just 3 packets.

If so, the more damaged one is I02591811A...maybe it was on the outside and the other was on the inside of the original packet of 3 ?

but note, they would have been separated by some number of bills if they were in the same packet.

Just seems random.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2021, 08:39:24 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7352 on: September 21, 2021, 11:33:41 PM »
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The heritage auction pair is easily verified with the links I provided.
Double checking Flyjacks claim of these 2 serials being top bills in the 12 bundles the fbi showed..
I02442844A 1969 164 46 D TOP BILL OF 12
I02591811A 1969 164 47 D TOP BILL OF 12

In the attached picture, I02442844A is in the bottom row, 2nd from left
I02591811A is middle row, 2nd from left.

interesting question as to whether those 2 mini-bundles were in the same original packet when there was just 3 packets.

If so, the more damaged one is I02591811A...maybe it was on the outside and the other was on the inside of the original packet of 3 ?

but note, they would have been separated by some number of bills if they were in the same packet.

Just seems random.

Where does this photo come from ?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7353 on: September 21, 2021, 11:59:05 PM »
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The heritage auction pair is easily verified with the links I provided.
Double checking Flyjacks claim of these 2 serials being top bills in the 12 bundles the fbi showed..
I02442844A 1969 164 46 D TOP BILL OF 12
I02591811A 1969 164 47 D TOP BILL OF 12

In the attached picture, I02442844A is in the bottom row, 2nd from left
I02591811A is middle row, 2nd from left.

interesting question as to whether those 2 mini-bundles were in the same original packet when there was just 3 packets.

If so, the more damaged one is I02591811A...maybe it was on the outside and the other was on the inside of the original packet of 3 ?

but note, they would have been separated by some number of bills if they were in the same packet.

Just seems random.

Where does this photo come from ?

I just dug it out of all google drive archives I've not looked at in a while..but it's titled "Norjack.." when I saved it, and the text at the bottom makes it seem like it's from a book. So I'm assuming I scanned the Himmelsbach Norjak book..I have a copy (but in storage right now so can't check) (the image says I scanned it)
It is better than the various press photos from that day in 1980.

EDIT I must have typo'ed 'Norjack" instead of "Norjak" when I saved the image

EDIT Yeah you can see the bend on the right where I bent the book spine back to scan it.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 12:03:55 AM by snowmman »
 
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Offline 377

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7354 on: September 22, 2021, 07:07:17 PM »
“Federal agents say the use of rubber bands and other ordinary methods of storing cash were indications of drug trafficking or money laundering.”

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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7355 on: September 22, 2021, 08:55:56 PM »
I'm thinking the Tena Bar money was not the remnants of 3 packets delivered to Cooper..but only the remnants of two packets.

PCGS certified 83 total notes and fragments (serials). This includes the 2nd round of 35 that went to the FBI

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"This process revealed 35 additional full serial numbers that are on the FBI’s 1971 complete list of notes given as ransom, but apparently were not recorded when the notes discovered by Mr. Ingram in 1980 subsequently were inventoried by investigators.  We are pleased to provide the FBI with these ‘new’ numbers with the hope that any new evidence may provide useful leads in this case."

"A total of 83 notes and fragments were certified by PCGS Currency."

So then the FBI has maybe another 13.
and the insurance company might have what? 40?

I would think just about all of Brian's money has been PCGS certified? no reason why he wouldn't.

So it seems to me there are less than 200 possible serials in the Tena Bar money?

The pictures of the 12 bundles that I posted above, seem like they might be at most 200 bills or so? That would be an average of 17 bills per bundle.

It just seems to me, that it's possible the 3 chunks of money found on Tena Bar, may have been only 2 packets of 100.

The evidence for it being 3 packets of 100 (with some missing) doesn't exist?

it seems like the 3 packets idea came solely from the 3 chunks of money.
But note that since they broke 3 chunks into 12 chunks....those 3 chunks could easily have been 2 chunks to start with.

It doesn't seem possible to me that the FBI correctly determined either the number, or order of, the bills that were found on Tena Bar.
i.e. I think their apparent claim that the money was in the same order as delivered to Cooper, was simply not verifiable in the delay between the Ingram reporting to FBI and the press event

they would have had to disassemble the packets more (more than 12) to know. They probably don't even know what order those 12 bundles were in, relative to the original 3 bundles.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 08:57:34 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7356 on: September 22, 2021, 09:03:53 PM »
in terms of 83 being the right total number for PCGS certification:

There are pictures of 31 bills with serials at heritage auction
There are 10 PCGS certified fragments without serials at heritage auctions.

PCGS reported in the later press release that they had certified a total of 83 notes and fragments.
They certify some without serials.

There have been some PCGS certified notes that have been sold or appeared on ebay, that don't have pictures at heritage auctions.

In any case, the total of 83 for PCGS certified notes and fragments seems about right. And like I suggest, probably includes all of Brian's notes. Not FBI and Not insurance company.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2021, 09:11:15 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7357 on: September 22, 2021, 11:36:01 PM »
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in terms of 83 being the right total number for PCGS certification:

There are pictures of 31 bills with serials at heritage auction
There are 10 PCGS certified fragments without serials at heritage auctions.

PCGS reported in the later press release that they had certified a total of 83 notes and fragments.
They certify some without serials.

There have been some PCGS certified notes that have been sold or appeared on ebay, that don't have pictures at heritage auctions.

In any case, the total of 83 for PCGS certified notes and fragments seems about right. And like I suggest, probably includes all of Brian's notes. Not FBI and Not insurance company.

What happened to the 143? bills/pieces given to Globe Indemnity in 1986. In 76 Globe had been willing to finance a search of Lake Merwin by submarine ...

Where are Globe's bills today?   
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7358 on: September 23, 2021, 12:12:50 AM »
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What happened to the 143? bills/pieces given to Globe Indemnity in 1986. In 76 Globe had been willing to finance a search of Lake Merwin by submarine ...

Where are Globe's bills today?   


there's not 286 bills in the overhead photo of 12 bundles.  That's 24 average bills per bundle.

there's no way Globe Indemniy got 143 bills
Each got less than 100 bills.
If they got some fragments, it becomes debatable how many fragments make a bill. Is every fragment counted separately? even if no identification of serial?
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7359 on: September 23, 2021, 12:15:12 AM »
It's important to agree on whether there were 3 packets equivalent to 3 packets to Cooper, or just 2 packets, split in 3.

everyone goes on and on about how weird 3 bundles together is.

It's less weird if it's 2 broken packets

i.e.. it's less hard for 2 packets to arrive there (by dredge)

like the random effect of consecutive serials from the FBI list (two pairs!)

« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 12:17:32 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7360 on: September 23, 2021, 12:37:22 AM »
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What happened to the 143? bills/pieces given to Globe Indemnity in 1986. In 76 Globe had been willing to finance a search of Lake Merwin by submarine ...

Where are Globe's bills today?   


there's not 286 bills in the overhead photo of 12 bundles.  That's 24 average bills per bundle.

there's no way Globe Indemniy got 143 bills
Each got less than 100 bills.
If they got some fragments, it becomes debatable how many fragments make a bill. Is every fragment counted separately? even if no identification of serial?

You are probably correct - thats why I put a question mark after 143.

I am still vexed by how the money was packaged, following Carr's original description - FJ insists is wrong. The presence or absence of paper straps FJ claims dissolved.

In fact its mundane issues like this and all the bitterness that surrounds them, plus the inability to resolves simple issues like this... that makes me pause sometimes ...

It would be nice to know how the money was packaged from somebody who actually knows. Maybe everyone is just guessing at this point.   

   
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 12:38:17 AM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7361 on: September 23, 2021, 12:43:16 AM »
Other posts at this forum, say Stephen P. Rickles (still an attorney in Portland) says he doesn't know where the money went, and all his files
went to the firm in Charlotte?

GLOBE INDEMNITY COMPANY
9300 Arrowpoint Blvd
P.O. BOX 1000
CHARLOTTE,   NC 28201-1000
800-523-6269
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7362 on: September 23, 2021, 12:45:19 AM »
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It would be nice to know how the money was packaged from somebody who actually knows. Maybe everyone is just guessing at this point.   

 

I don't think there's a timeline that supports repackaging (and especially, refilming) the money the night cooper got the money. No repackaging commentary is in any fbi file.

So: do you think money was stored wrapped in rubber bands in the bank vault?
I don't think so.

I think money wrapped in rubber bands in the bank vault is required for that to make sense. (rubber bands as primary grouping mechanism for bills)
If the gloves don't fit, you must acquit!

all the files talk about 100 note packets, with start/end pairs designating apparently equal sized packets (on microfilm). 15 start/end pairs = $30,000, that is.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 12:49:28 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7363 on: September 23, 2021, 12:53:55 AM »
Your post January 22, 2010 at DZ says:

' articles said he got $2760 out of the $5800
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Evidently brian's plane was late for the money presentation, and there were just a lawyer for brian and for the insurance company at first? (when the money was given up in 1986)

elsewhere it says they split $5520 with the FBI keeping $280 (14 bills...like I say, some say the FBI got 13) '


That comes out to:
approx 138 each Brian and Globe ........ 14 bills to FBI

I dont have any Court doc that states the division.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 12:57:10 AM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7364 on: September 23, 2021, 01:47:54 AM »
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Your post January 22, 2010 at DZ says:

' articles said he got $2760 out of the $5800
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Evidently brian's plane was late for the money presentation, and there were just a lawyer for brian and for the insurance company at first? (when the money was given up in 1986)

elsewhere it says they split $5520 with the FBI keeping $280 (14 bills...like I say, some say the FBI got 13) '


That comes out to:
approx 138 each Brian and Globe ........ 14 bills to FBI

I dont have any Court doc that states the division.

well if the original county was $5800...so (14*20) = 280 (for fbi)...then 5520/2 = $2760 apiece which is 138 bills apiece.

but I don't think there was $5800 to start with. It doesn't seem like there are 290 bills in those 12 bundles.

And if Brian got 138 bills..I don't think PCGS certified 138 bills for him. And why wouldn't he certify all the bills he had?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 01:49:24 AM by snowmman »