Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 588888 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7365 on: September 23, 2021, 02:08:30 AM »
here's some more confirmation that Brian had a relatively small # of bills.  The bottom paragraph talks about 25 bills.

from an article when PCGS first certified bills in Feb 24 2008

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Nearly two dozen $20 denomination notes from the infamous
1971 �D.B. Cooper� skyjacking have been certified by PCGS
Currency on behalf of the owner who found them a
quarter-century ago.

His family turned the money over to the Federal Bureau
of Investigation. Eventually, the FBI returned 25 bills
to them along with dozens of fragments that contained
little or no trace of serial numbers. Most of the notes
have lightly written initials of FBI agents who inventoried
and examined the items soon after they were discovered
by Ingram.



Would be funny if the total # of bills and fragments is really just a single 100 bill packet.

EDIT: here Jun 17, 2008 t says Brian has 70 more notes, after he sold 15

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Fifteen Series 1969 (and other then current series) $20 Federal Reserve Notes that no collector would even look at in less than uncirculated grade realized $37,433

Ingram still has 70 more of these notes, so at that rate they would be worth almost another $175,000, which is interesting, because the full ransom at the time of the hijacking was $200,000.


So that would say Brian had 85 notes or fragments?

Still think that maybe there could be just 2 packets (200 minus some) worth of notes...not 3 (not 300 minus some)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 02:14:20 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7366 on: September 23, 2021, 02:22:59 AM »
Note

if the FBI announced $5880 found money is wrong, then it's more likely the announcement that the money was found in the same order as delivered, was wrong also.

There's nothing that supports Brian having the amount of money required, to make $5880 found on Tena Bar, plausible (given the 1986 split between Global + Brian equal, and 14 to FBI

And then by extension, nothing to say that 3 of the original packets of money to cooper were found.
My guess is 2 packets. Although it is possible, depending on what Global got, to make it all come from a single packet of 100 bills? (the known serials that brian and PCGS  produced X 2) + 14 being less than 100. The x2 is assuming Global could produce an equal number to Brian.


A lot of the consternation about the money find, is because of an assumption of 3 packets of money found close to each other. i.e. the FBI saying $5880 (or $5800) . Assume that's wrong, and things become simpler, in terms of theories.

I find it interesting, for all the pretense of "science" on Tom Kaye's site about the money find, the "amount" of money found was never closely examined, and whether the various claims were plausible.

EDIT: partly because all the info from PCGS about what Brian had, only started trickling out in 2008, I think.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 02:37:55 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7367 on: September 23, 2021, 02:44:11 AM »
Note:

If the FBI said there were 3 packets and approx $5800 by looking at serial numbers and start/end pairs of packets (100 bill) given to cooper
and using the presence of some bills that matched start/end to determine estimated total...
and they were way off compared to the number of bills actually found

one could argue that the bills were a single packet that was reordered somehow after delivery to Cooper !! :)

Show me  a plausible way $5800 existed. I don't think there is one. We know what Brian got. We know what FBI got. We know Global got something close to Brian.

PCGS has done a damn good job of extricating serials from Brians money.

There are no unknowns. Just inability to accept the known?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7368 on: September 23, 2021, 04:49:41 AM »
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Note:

If the FBI said there were 3 packets and approx $5800 by looking at serial numbers and start/end pairs of packets (100 bill) given to cooper
and using the presence of some bills that matched start/end to determine estimated total...
and they were way off compared to the number of bills actually found

one could argue that the bills were a single packet that was reordered somehow after delivery to Cooper !! :)

Show me  a plausible way $5800 existed. I don't think there is one. We know what Brian got. We know what FBI got. We know Global got something close to Brian.

PCGS has done a damn good job of extricating serials from Brians money.

There are no unknowns. Just inability to accept the known?

Can you find the actual Court order dividing the money. Where was that case tried and the division physically made? In Portland? Seattle?

Is there an inventory of the found money and instructions for dividing it in that record?
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 04:55:20 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7369 on: September 23, 2021, 02:53:36 PM »
NEW-OLD.  Agent McPheters comments on the fragments he found.

Old post by Snowman

September 27, 2009
this seems like a good find.

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BRUCE: if you can find this guy and interview him, that would be cool.

His book was just published in 2009. memoirs.
Title Agent Bishop: True Stories from an FBI Agent Moonlighting As a Mormon Bishop
Author Mike McPheters
Publisher Cedar Fort, 2009
ISBN 1599553171, 9781599553177
Length 273 pages

Agent Mike McPheters worked hijackings out of Miami in 1971.

In 1980, he apparently was up in the Portland Division, FBI. In 1980 he became part of the Portland SWAT. Other interesting stories in the book.

He says he found some money while they were searching after the Ingram find

from the above link/page

"While sifting through a parcel of the beach assigned to me, I turned up portions of soil containing pieces of paper currency approximately two inches wide, but still containing serial numbers that matched Cooper's demand money.

I preserved each piece as evidence by storing them in plastic bags, tagging them with my initials and the date and case number. I kept digging. By late that night and with the help of a good rake, I had found numerous pieces of the money, all of which matched up. I documented my discovery as one of the most interesting reports I had ever written."


What's interesting to me, is how Ckret protested the dredge story. The pieces of bills found, seem to support the dredge story more.

If the story of McPheters money find is true, it's another example of where Ckret didn't know basic stuff, or withheld it from us.

(edit) I've since researched McPheters more. He's the real deal. Interesting full life.

(edit) McPheters was late 30s in 1980. Unclear if he would have been familiar with the geologist report. But, he was in the Portland office with Himmelsbach. He may be able to give us background on Himmelsbach or the clay layer report.
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7370 on: September 23, 2021, 02:57:47 PM »
Fazios did their own dredging ?

snowmman
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September 28, 2009
I was intrigued by the Fazio's dredging operations.
I found they had hired an environmental consultant to get their dredging access permit renewed recently.

They claimed they had been doing it since 1995. I don't know for sure when the earliest was.

But I found their dredging permit from 2004. (It expires at the end of Oct. this year)

There are 3 pages.

The second page has a picture of the exact location the dredge goes to. It's at the plume area in '74, that seemed to have runoff. Georger talked about this a lot apparently from info from Tom Kaye and Fazio.

It's right at the big sand hills, which you would expect.

I was half wondering if the Fazios could have done any illegal dredging in the late '70s. They started up their sand operation in the '70s right? I think we know that from the pictures? I forget how we went thru this. While this may be the current dredging output site (and it seems to match one of the plumes in '74)...the '74 picture shows two plumes..the other closer to the money find.

from You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
and attached.

BergerABAM was the firm they used to get their permit through:
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7371 on: September 23, 2021, 03:01:06 PM »
Can you find the actual Court order dividing the money. Where was that case tried and the division physically made? In Portland? Seattle?

Is there an inventory of the found money and instructions for dividing it in that record?
« Last Edit: Today at 04:55:20 AM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7372 on: September 23, 2021, 03:44:34 PM »
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Can you find the actual Court order dividing the money. Where was that case tried and the division physically made? In Portland? Seattle?

Is there an inventory of the found money and instructions for dividing it in that record?
« Last Edit: Today at 04:55:20 AM by georger »

Northwest, Global Indemnity, FBI  and Brian all presented claims on the money.
Apparently the lawyers agreed that FBI would get $280, and Global Indemnity and Brian would split the rest.
Judge Helen Frye had to approve the agreement.

Helen J. Frye was nominated by Carter to the US District Court of Oregon in 1979, confirmed in 1980.
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Assuming this news article is correct about the agreement. I can't seem to find a case writeup on this, because maybe there was no case?
i.e. lawyers drafted agreement and for some reason, Frye had to sign off on the agreement. Is that typical for out-of-court settlements?? (maybe?)

Looks like it got done in Portland, which makes sense since Frye was federal judge in Oregon.

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PORTLAND, Ore. — The boy who found $5,800 of hijacker D. B. Cooper’s loot six years ago would get to keep almost half of the cash under an agreement submitted to a judge Wednesday by the four parties claiming shares of the find.
Tuesday was the deadline for submitting claims on the $5,800 in decaying $20 bills found by Brian Ingram, now 14, on a Columbia River beach in Vancouver, Wash., six years ago.

The parties that filed claims on the money were Ingram and his parents, Northwest Orient Airlines, the FBI and the airline’s insurance company, Globe Indemnity Co.

Under the proposed judgment, which must be approved by U.S. District Judge Helen Frye, the federal government would keep $280 for use as evidence should anyone be prosecuted in the unsolved 1971 hijacking in which $200,000 was paid as ransom. Ingram and Globe Indemnity would split the remaining $5,520 equally.

 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7373 on: September 23, 2021, 03:59:35 PM »
in terms of dredging permits for Fazio
some of the old links georger posted may no longer have valid info.

I had thought they were talking about dredge permits for Fazio in '95
Not sure about before then.

this site has information on Fazio dredge permits going back to 2/3/1995 (Version 1 of permit)
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permit is WAG501068   ..Current version is 6, valid from 4/1/2021 to 3/31/2026

They have had 17 violations over the years and 5 enforcements. 6 inspections.

can't seem to find the permit docs when I click thru on that site.

 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7374 on: September 23, 2021, 04:01:16 PM »
Interesting McPheters implies multiple fragments with serial numbers, were found by the FBI during their search.
We've only seen one, that G note in the news video

"While sifting through a parcel of the beach assigned to me, I turned up portions of soil containing pieces of paper currency approximately two inches wide, but still containing serial numbers that matched Cooper's demand money.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 04:16:07 PM by snowmman »
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7375 on: September 23, 2021, 04:11:30 PM »
Interesting article in 2013 about the Fazios not wanting people to trespass on their land for fishing, due to liability concerns

"A survey for the Fazios by Minister & Glaeser Surveying of Vancouver determined the family owns down to 4.385 feet Columbia River Datum.

Steven Ivey, aquatic land surveyor for the state Department of Natural Resources, said Tuesday he was asked to review the survey and found no flaws.

Columbia River Datum is the measuring stick used by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration to determine river height.

Ivey said the line of mean high tide is normally the boundary used to determine privately owned uplands and publicly owned beach."

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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7376 on: September 23, 2021, 04:15:39 PM »
from 2004  the Fazio Sand and Gravel permit site map

interesting, shows all the different operations there.
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7377 on: September 23, 2021, 04:23:05 PM »
From Joe Fazio obit, pic of Joe driving a Cat D6 pushing sand..or maybe excavating with the D6? sandy land if so.
Could have spread dredge spoils on Tena Bar with that D6! who knows.

unclear from when, but he's younger looking

in the obit (2018) says they formed Fazio Brothers Sand Company in the '70s with brothers Albert, Jack and Richard
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he was born in 1939, So he would have been 40 in 1979
seems younger than 40 in this picture. Suspect it from '70s ??

« Last Edit: September 23, 2021, 04:24:22 PM by snowmman »
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7378 on: September 23, 2021, 04:32:23 PM »
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NEW-OLD.  Agent McPheters comments on the fragments he found.

Old post by Snowman

September 27, 2009
this seems like a good find.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

BRUCE: if you can find this guy and interview him, that would be cool.

His book was just published in 2009. memoirs.
Title Agent Bishop: True Stories from an FBI Agent Moonlighting As a Mormon Bishop
Author Mike McPheters
Publisher Cedar Fort, 2009
ISBN 1599553171, 9781599553177
Length 273 pages

Agent Mike McPheters worked hijackings out of Miami in 1971.

In 1980, he apparently was up in the Portland Division, FBI. In 1980 he became part of the Portland SWAT. Other interesting stories in the book.

He says he found some money while they were searching after the Ingram find

from the above link/page

"While sifting through a parcel of the beach assigned to me, I turned up portions of soil containing pieces of paper currency approximately two inches wide, but still containing serial numbers that matched Cooper's demand money.

I preserved each piece as evidence by storing them in plastic bags, tagging them with my initials and the date and case number. I kept digging. By late that night and with the help of a good rake, I had found numerous pieces of the money, all of which matched up. I documented my discovery as one of the most interesting reports I had ever written."


What's interesting to me, is how Ckret protested the dredge story. The pieces of bills found, seem to support the dredge story more.

If the story of McPheters money find is true, it's another example of where Ckret didn't know basic stuff, or withheld it from us.

(edit) I've since researched McPheters more. He's the real deal. Interesting full life.

(edit) McPheters was late 30s in 1980. Unclear if he would have been familiar with the geologist report. But, he was in the Portland office with Himmelsbach. He may be able to give us background on Himmelsbach or the clay layer report.
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I've interviewed McPheters twice. Details in the book and at the MN.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7379 on: September 23, 2021, 04:43:51 PM »
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I've interviewed McPheters twice. Details in the book and at the MN.

Interesting McPheters said he did a writeup.."one of the most interesting reports I had ever written"...so that must be in the FBI files somewhere.
I don't think we've seen the McPheters report yet in the FBI vault?

"I preserved each piece as evidence by storing them in plastic bags, tagging them with my initials and the date and case number. I kept digging. By late that night and with the help of a good rake, I had found numerous pieces of the money, all of which matched up. I documented my discovery as one of the most interesting reports I had ever written.""