Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 588855 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7305 on: September 12, 2021, 05:44:40 PM »
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Cigarette stains ON THE FINGERS 'OF' THE RIGHT HAND!

Its simple Flyjack. Learn how to read ENGLISH!

FINGERS ARE ON HANDS. FINGERS ARE NOT ON FEET!  SHEESH! 

The guy was probably right handed.

On the contrary, if the stains are on the right hand then he was probably left-handed.  Assuming he could smoke and work a crossword puzzle at the same time. 
 

Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7306 on: September 12, 2021, 05:50:36 PM »
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Cigarette stains ON THE FINGERS 'OF' THE RIGHT HAND!

Its simple Flyjack. Learn how to read ENGLISH!

FINGERS ARE ON HANDS. FINGERS ARE NOT ON FEET!  SHEESH! 

The guy was probably right handed.

On the contrary, if the stains are on the right hand then he was probably left-handed.  Assuming he could smoke and work a crossword puzzle at the same time.

heh who knows
But do you agree there was no report talking about cigarette stains on (cooper) hands before 1988?

that's the key thing. It seems wrong to me. I'm wondering if I'm missing something.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7307 on: September 12, 2021, 06:38:04 PM »
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Cigarette stains ON THE FINGERS 'OF' THE RIGHT HAND!

Its simple Flyjack. Learn how to read ENGLISH!

FINGERS ARE ON HANDS. FINGERS ARE NOT ON FEET!  SHEESH! 

The guy was probably right handed.

On the contrary, if the stains are on the right hand then he was probably left-handed.  Assuming he could smoke and work a crossword puzzle at the same time.

heh who knows
But do you agree there was no report talking about cigarette stains on (cooper) hands before 1988?

that's the key thing. It seems wrong to me. I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

I have seen some of the stain posts but don't remember where they originated.
 

Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7308 on: September 12, 2021, 06:40:17 PM »
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I have seen some of the stain posts but don't remember where they originated.

thanks. Until someone is willing to show a series of reports that say such a description existed in the '70s, I think there's no reason to believe it's true.

I mean, it could be true, but random things could be true. We know FBI reports are not all accurate, and I've explained why I think the report from 1988 (none earlier) is inaccurate.
 

Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7309 on: September 12, 2021, 07:09:39 PM »
Was curious about the model numbers for flight recorder and cockpit voice recorder.

This accident report for a 727 in 1968 mentioned this equipment for that plane
Not sure what flight 305 had.
printed page number 12 and 13 of You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

flight data recorder Fairchild Model 500 S/N 5218
flight cockpit recorder Fairchild CVR Model A-100 A/N 485

it seems 727s could vary
this accident report from 1968 at Chicago O'hare (United Air Lines 727)
crashed March 21, 1968
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printed page 13 and 14 says

flight data recorder Fairchild model 5424 s/n 7837
cockpit voice recorder United Control Corporation model V-557 s/n 1014


I think we talked about how these recorders had a limited span of time to record? so that when flight 305 landed in Reno, was there no interesting data to unload or do I forget something?

Interesting paper from 2021 talking about history of FDRs

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"Developments in Flight Recorder Equipment and Analysis "

This paper describes developments in flight recorder equipment and analysis
techniques from an Australian perspective. Australia was the first country to require
cockpit voice recorders (CVR’s) to be fitted to transport aircraft (1 January 1963) and
one of the first to require flight data recorders (FDR’s) to be fitted.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 07:12:44 PM by snowmman »
 

Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7310 on: September 12, 2021, 11:36:15 PM »
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FJ is trolling. Had cig stains on his finger, comma, hands, comma right hand, comma, ass, comma, butt, ears, eyeballs, comma, and other places !

ITS A GAME CHANGER,   comma,     

ITS A CROCK,  COMMA,   YOU TOOK IT SERIOUSLY,    COMMA,     all from the guy who wants to be taken seriously.

Coimma.    :rofl: :congrats:

in my experience, if someone is posting about cooper because they're actually interested in the case, that one should refrain from either bullying, arrogance, trying to convince others of xyz, angling for money etc.

Because: there's nothing to constrain other posters from starting to drive the train into crazyville.

You have to have spent time during Jo Weber Times, to understand what a waste of bits this can all become in the fast descent to hell.

so basically: don't rant against others, lead by example.

There's no motivation or reason to act rational in any of these posts. The "shared rational attitude" is just an agreement between people treated as equals. You can't beat someone into submission to get that.

Because: the most rational thing one can say about Cooper is: Who gives a fuck? :)
« Last Edit: September 12, 2021, 11:37:28 PM by snowmman »
 
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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7311 on: September 13, 2021, 06:56:09 AM »
interesting recent case where dredging was used for beach replenishment and cans got thru the dredging. See attached photo for aluminum (and other) cans that were picked up by residents, that went thru the dredging equipment


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"Last fall a resident walking her dog discovered sharp pieces of metal and glass in the sand, which put a gash in the dog’s paw. Then more cans were discovered, mainly at the north end of the island. Some were also found at the south end, where the 2019 material had been deposited.

(pic 1) photo of ripped apart soda cans
 
(pic 2) Debris collected at the south end of Park Point in March 2020.

It turned out the contractor doing the pumping in the fall of 2020 had notified the Corps that they had found debris, including cans, on a grate or screen that was part of the dredge-pumping system. The Corps instructed the contractor to dispose of the debris properly and keep on dredging.

According to Corps spokeswoman Carrie Fox, no one was expecting to see such a thing. “The offload and placement operation is a very dynamic process,” Fox said in an email. “It made it hard to observe any cans in the process.” Fox said the amount of debris caught by the grate persuaded the contractor that it was catching everything. “They were essentially relying on the screen to catch the cans and weren’t monitoring the other end of the pipe on the beach,” she said."
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 06:58:12 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7312 on: September 13, 2021, 07:11:38 AM »
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Question on the money for anyone.  We know that packets/bundles etc. were found, totaling around $5800.  We believe that all those bills had serial numbers.  Current research says maybe it was less than $5800? Maybe more?  Maybe some of the serial numbers are wrong.  My question is this: Weren't there shards found (quite a bit)? Were these tied to the bills that were found, or are they totally separate?  If they are separate, then more money was lost/buried/went through the dredge etc.  If so, how much?


The "extra" money, meaning those bills that created the shards, is undetermined. Nevertheless, there is some data that gives an educated opinion on the total number of bills deposited at T-Bar. Dorwin told me that he and his team found dozens, if not hundreds, of shards of at least 1-inch in diameter for a radius of 20 feet from the Ingram find, and down to a depth of three feet. Plus, we have seen the KATU videos of about six shards of at least 2-3 inches being placed in Plasticine evidence envelopes, which are all now missing.

I have heard numerous discussions that estimate these shards were generated from another $400 worth of bills - basically another 20 twenties. That makes the grand total of T-Bar money to be about $6,200. That's the figure I use in my book.

Newbie here...(hi to all), bare with me if I botch this first post  :)

Bruce, this is the first time I have come across anyone putting the shards into any context in terms of how much additional money they may amount to.  I was always kind of thinking that the shards "controversy" was about a substantial portion of the ransom money well beyond the original ~$5800.  And I know this is all speculation based on input from some folks and best guesses, but if the shards are only from an additional $400 give or take, it doesn't really move the needle for me toward the idea that the dredge was responsible for dicing up bills as much as it would if it was a lot more money.

But, as many others have pointed out, the key to me is whether any of these shards as a readable serial number on them ?  If so, is it linked to the orginal 3 packets/bundles/straps ? or is it from an entirely different packet ?  Thanks !
 

Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7313 on: September 13, 2021, 12:52:13 PM »
There's no released info from FBI that can identify what packet a serial number belongs to.

The FBI said the bills found were in the same order as delivered to Cooper. They said that almost immediately, and it went into the press releases in 1980.

it's unclear if it was true, or wishful thinking on the part of the FBI.

The microfilm appears to have had the per packet bill order. But that's not clearly stated anywhere. It seems to be implied by various things (the recording of top/bottom serials for identifying groups of 100 bills, when excluding $30k in $20 from the original pile of ransom money that was microfiched.

If that order is on the microfilm, the FBI has not released a list in that order. It's unclear if a printed list in that order exists, although it would have been possible to print that in 1980. Because they apparently entered the microfiche data into a computer for sorting, for creating the well known 34-page ransom list. If it didn't already exist on paper, it's unclear how the FBI quickly said "same order" after the Ingram find. Did they consult the microfilm or ??

There is one "G..." note fragment that's clearly been found while the FBI was excavating. That's shown in news video. But again, can't tell what packet it might be from.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 12:55:20 PM by snowmman »
 
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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7314 on: September 13, 2021, 02:30:16 PM »
On dropzone.com, Flyjack apparently is suggesting that the 1988 report that said there was a cooper description that included "right hand cigarette stains"...was due to an accidental release of "held back" information.

For that to be true, there would have to be a FBI report with that description from a witness, that is either redacted, or that we've not seen yet from the FOIA activity. It would have to be an early '70s report? Possibly 1971? Unless there was a later interview where someone suddenly remembered something.

I didn't check the name of the agent writing the 1988 report, but it's unlikely he was there in 1971, so he must have wrote it from some recollection of some report he read, or just accidently made it up from a false recollection. Remember, the 1988 report(s) were about a suspect who "did" have right hand cigarette stains. (two different suspects, both named Cooper. Geez, three different cooper descriptions! No wonder an agent could screw up while reading reports!)

I was confident we have all 302's describing Cooper. From Geoffrey Gray we have unredacted 302s from the flight crew and passengers. I'm not aware of any redaction in descriptions, from the fbi files.

How could this "held back" information have existed in a report, but nothing suggesting it in anything we've seen yet?

Do unreleased Cooper descriptions exist? That would be amazing, as there could be more information. For instance: did Cooper have tattoos? Was that held back (still?)

And why would they hold back "right hand cigarette stains" ?? That doesn't seem damning, since they already at times said Cooper was a heavy smoker (even though that was debatable)
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 02:34:55 PM by snowmman »
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7315 on: September 13, 2021, 02:33:58 PM »
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On dropzone.com, Flyjack apparently is suggesting that the 1988 report that said there was a cooper description that included "right hand cigarette stains"...was due to an accidental release of "held back" information.

For that to be true, there would have to be a FBI report with that description from a witness, that is either redacted, or that we've not seen yet from the FOIA activity. It would have to be an early '70s report? Possibly 1971? Unless there was a later interview where someone suddenly remembered something.

I didn't check the name of the agent writing the 1988 report, but it's unlikely he was there in 1971, so he must have wrote it from some recollection of some report he read, or just accidently made it up from a false recollection.

I was confident we have all 302's describing Cooper. From Geoffrey Gray we have unredacted 302s from the flight crew and passengers. I'm not aware of any redaction in descriptions, from the fbi files.

How could this "held back" information have existed in a report, but nothing suggesting it in anything we've seen yet?

Do unreleased Cooper descriptions exist? That would be amazing, as there could be more information. For instance: did Cooper have tattoos? Was that held back (still?)

And why would they hold back "right hand cigarette stains" ?? That doesn't seem damning, since they already at times said Cooper was a heavy smoker (even though that was debatable)
I'd like to know too as it relates to my question about visible and identifiable scars.
 

Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7316 on: September 13, 2021, 02:36:37 PM »
Note that in 1988, there are two reports about suspects named "Cooper"

I think both of the suspects had right hand cigarette stains?

Without any report saying that a real Cooper description included right hand stains, it would seem most likely that the 1988 agent was just wrong.

I really can't imagine some hidden (to date) Cooper description existing in the FBI files, still unreleased, still secret.
 

Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7317 on: September 13, 2021, 02:45:43 PM »
Today's funny literature extract. Partly I'm just showing why Sheridan was so confusing to me, and his book. It's really an autobiography. With a lot of rage.
This is what gets me sad/angry thinking about Sheridan. Why couldn't he been straightforward, instead of always leading with a veneer of rage/paranoia? Maybe just old age stuff. Maybe he really did like playing on the story that the FBI thought he was Cooper. Who knows what his motivations were.

I hadn't noticed his talk about Robin Hood, here, before. Why include such crazy detail in a literary documentary about Vietnam? :)

EDIT: correction. this is not at the boy's school. This is back at home. Tessie is apparently homeschooling him after his father left. Not sure why he refers to "parents" then. Some of Sheridan's writing spins off into "not based on fact" sometimes. But then it's unclear how it develops the story, and why it's included.

Maybe Tessie is teaching a couple of students including Sheridan, at his home. That would make sense.



It wasn’t long before Tessie began finding fault with Grant. He never seemed to do anything right. No matter how hard he tried, he was always wrong. She told everyone that he was a hopeless imbecile. What made things worse was that she was his teacher. She was forever intimidating him, humiliating him before the other pupils. His grades were all D’s and F’s. “Wouldn’t want the parents to think I was showing favoritism, Would you?” she asked Grant. The question was rhetorical. What was he supposed to say? What recourse was there? So he withdrew further and further within himself shutting out the world about him.

It was at this time, that Grant discovered the tales of Robin Hood. He would slip off to his tree house in the woods and spend the day reading the stories over and over again until he had committed them to memory. He imagined himself to be the dashing outlaw of ancient lore. He was that chivalrous rogue. The real world lost all relevancy.  Hidden in a thicket of scrub oak and manzanita, Grant built a camp complete with tunnels, bunkers, an archery range and even a pond with a log across it for staff fights.  In his imagination, he reenacted the scenes from the book countless times. Brandishing the Skipper’s old ceremonial sword, he’d swoop down on arrogant sheriffs and fat bishops all strangely resembling his father one way or another. He showed them no mercy, slicing them to bits.

At school he thought only of his merry band of revelers; gradually growing quite oblivious to his mother and the other pupils seated about him. He would look quite perplexed whenever he was asked a question. Eventually Tessie moved him to a corner of the room and quite ignored him. It didn’t seem to trouble her that her son was a failure. She readily agreed with the other children. He was a dunce. She even seemed to get a perverse enjoyment in watching them taunting him.

                     
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 02:55:20 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7318 on: September 13, 2021, 07:42:07 PM »
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Newbie here...(hi to all), bare with me if I botch this first post  :)

Bruce, this is the first time I have come across anyone putting the shards into any context in terms of how much additional money they may amount to.  I was always kind of thinking that the shards "controversy" was about a substantial portion of the ransom money well beyond the original ~$5800.  And I know this is all speculation based on input from some folks and best guesses, but if the shards are only from an additional $400 give or take, it doesn't really move the needle for me toward the idea that the dredge was responsible for dicing up bills as much as it would if it was a lot more money.

But, as many others have pointed out, the key to me is whether any of these shards as a readable serial number on them ?  If so, is it linked to the orginal 3 packets/bundles/straps ? or is it from an entirely different packet ?  Thanks !


Yes, the shards that Dorwin and team put in evidentiary envelopes had partial serial numbers on them. As Snowmman has pointed out above, there is no way to know definitively if they came from the three bundolas or from a fourth packet.

As I understand the Ingram find, the auction company found some additional bills schmooshed tightly onto the bundle of other bills that they bought from Brian Ingram. In fact, they had to separate the bills via surgical-like procedures. Add those bills to the shards and we have a bit more than 5800 bucks. Maybe 6200 according to some estimates. This is as my memory recalls. Exact details are out in my files. Please don't ask me to hunt for them until you really need that info.

On that topic, the CS team did find two plastic containers with shard bits - they are so small they look like "bill dust."

Also interesting - but still not corroborated - is what Georger posted here years ago, stating that Dorwin had told him that there was a shard field on the surface that a "blind man could follow," and it spread down the beach for 60 yards. At least that is what I remember G posting here.

So...

Anyway, welcome to the Forum, JAG.
 
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Online snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7319 on: September 13, 2021, 09:52:09 PM »
well, I think I'm all caught up on whatever is new or new to discuss.

Honestly, I don't think anything has changed since the last time I checked in.

sure it's nice to have more solid confirmation of certain things from the fbi files.
it's sad seeing how much misleading information came out of fbi spokesmen over the years.
I think just because the information wasn't analyzed or curated very well.

But I don't see any new information that actually leads anywhere. Sure it's interesting to drill into something just to get more detail.

But there's a difference between "more detail" and whether any of it really matters.
I think I've not seen anything new that matters


To put a point on it. for all the talk about clues, evidence etc.
To have it be me, this year, to be the first to publish the full ransom list in text form, and show that there were typos by the FBI......

that's ridiculous.

It shows how crappy all of the evidence trail is.

I kind of laugh in the general direction of the voice actors that are going to lecture us using math. (in an English accent).
« Last Edit: September 13, 2021, 10:05:06 PM by snowmman »