Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 637271 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2985 on: March 02, 2021, 01:39:59 PM »
Dona and Bryan both claim Cooper has been to Ariel and sent letters.
 

Offline EU

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2986 on: March 02, 2021, 01:40:52 PM »
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Dona didn't give any formal statement as far as I can tell. it's not on record other than from reporters. again, are you ready to accept the weather was severe as she claims. you can't use part of a story as credible.

We know what the weather was like that night. We have irrefutable data. If she or anyone else tells a different story then they are incorrect--not necessarily lying.

Even at that, it still does not mean that she is lying about hearing a jet. These testimonies are not mutually exclusive. Again, that's why I qualified my comments by stating "if Dona is credible here."
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Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2987 on: March 02, 2021, 01:50:09 PM »
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Well, if Galen has quote: "found multiple groups telling their own independent sighting story, and taken together the triangulation puts the plane/305 west of the I-5 bridge in Vancouver", that is news. Is it factually true? Who are these people and why hasn't this been published before?


It has been published, G. Page 106 of DB Cooper and the FBI - A Case Study of America's Only Unsolved Skyjacking.

By the way, did you get a PDF copy of the 3rd edition that I was sending out to Forum folks? Maybe you should un-block my email address so I can send you a copy. It's gratis, of course.

Yes. That soap opera. No wonder the media ignored it. Old stuff keeps resurfacing ... like old suits.  We went over this nonsense years ago. Once is enough!
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 02:27:22 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2988 on: March 02, 2021, 02:03:33 PM »
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Dona didn't give any formal statement as far as I can tell. it's not on record other than from reporters. again, are you ready to accept the weather was severe as she claims. you can't use part of a story as credible.

We know what the weather was like that night. We have irrefutable data. If she or anyone else tells a different story then they are incorrect--not necessarily lying.

Even at that, it still does not mean that she is lying about hearing a jet. These testimonies are not mutually exclusive. Again, that's why I qualified my comments by stating "if Dona is credible here."


We know what the weather was like that night.

We who? Where?  to what altitude by whom where? In what weather zones when? Your sweeping statement is no better than Dona's.

Lots of different witnesses in different places and positions at different times gave different accounts including the pilots ....

Why dont you just stick to your flight path and your drop zone and give a weather report for that vs. trying to tell us what the weather was like that night EVERYWHERE IN WASHINGTON! 

This is ridiculous.  Why dont you just say: "I am the only one with the actual weather facts for that night - ignore all other reports"!   ;)

Cheers.     

*** There was no single weather report for all of Washington at all altitudes and times - that night!  Or along a single flight path from Seattle to PDX ...  ::)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 02:10:57 PM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2989 on: March 02, 2021, 02:29:38 PM »
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Dona from the Ariel store believes she heard 305 fly over her house in Amboy. she thinks the plane was at around 3-4,000 feet. what's interesting is she said it was raining so hard she couldn't hear anything. how did she hear 305 then? I have all the respect in the world for her but it sounds like a story to keep the interest in that area alive. a publicity stunt of sort..
Well, I'm not debating the flight paths. I'm just tired of you and Robert99 making proclamations as if they are fact when there is little to nothing to substantiate them. If you are going to put forward contrarian positions that contradict the known facts then I'm going to call you on it. I wish more posters like myself did the same. I'm not being a dick; I just don't think you like nor are you used to having your theories pushed back on. You like to be able to monologue because no one can interrupt you, and politely debating you on this issue provides your theory with the illusion of substance and fact. The western flight path is a fringe theory that flies in the face of official, documented evidence and no third person eavesdropping at birthday party or a second-story from a less than credible witness is going to change that.

Again, I respect the work and research you have put in, but on this issue your conclusions are just wrong. If saying that makes me a "dick" then so be it.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2990 on: March 02, 2021, 02:48:20 PM »
I'm far from an expert on weather in Washington. here it can rain on one side of the street and bad storms just a couple miles away having sunshine.

Can anyone verify a bad storm cell anywhere in the area? if a bad storm cell is nowhere to be found the problem lies upon the person reporting the event. if there was no bad storm did she really hear anything? the credibility takes a strong hit. then you read more reports from her believing Cooper has been at the Ariel store. it's certainly possible he walk right by. did Cooper really send them letters. It's all rather difficult to swallow.

Dona was a very nice person and kept that tavern open for years while losing money. Bryan had demons dealing with alcohol but still tried to "keep the torch lit" in his mothers honor.

Evidence can only be evidence that is verified. I see assumptions turn into evidence. we have multiple stories from the pilots. we have a radar operator that says the path looks close but tosses in things making it appear faulty. I think Scott in on record shortly after the fact believing Cooper landed in Merwin. how could he say that if he was further west not even close to the lake. why didn't they just stay after looking at the map show a relatively straight line from certain points showing where they were?

Other things like the Cinbar find are nothing close to proof it was part of the skirting. The placard has come under question as well. both of these events need more documentation prior to calling them evidence. strong possibilities, perhaps? can we do anything as a group to find out more about these events vs stating "the so called placard from 305" battling back and forth gets nowhere.

This Thursday I will be working right beside a Boeing warehouse. I'm not sure what the operation is about but they might be a foot in the door in asking questions or directing me to them. we will see..

Lets tone the attitudes down while we are at this...
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2991 on: March 02, 2021, 03:03:54 PM »
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I'm far from an expert on weather in Washington. here it can rain on one side of the street and bad storms just a couple miles away having sunshine.

Can anyone verify a bad storm cell anywhere in the area? if a bad storm cell is nowhere to be found the problem lies upon the person reporting the event. if there was no bad storm did she really hear anything? the credibility takes a strong hit. then you read more reports from her believing Cooper has been at the Ariel store. it's certainly possible he walk right by. did Cooper really send them letters. It's all rather difficult to swallow.

Dona was a very nice person and kept that tavern open for years while losing money. Bryan had demons dealing with alcohol but still tried to "keep the torch lit" in his mothers honor.

Evidence can only be evidence that is verified. I see assumptions turn into evidence. we have multiple stories from the pilots. we have a radar operator that says the path looks close but tosses in things making it appear faulty. I think Scott in on record shortly after the fact believing Cooper landed in Merwin. how could he say that if he was further west not even close to the lake. why didn't they just stay after looking at the map show a relatively straight line from certain points showing where they were?

Other things like the Cinbar find are nothing close to proof it was part of the skirting. The placard has come under question as well. both of these events need more documentation prior to calling them evidence. strong possibilities, perhaps? can we do anything as a group to find out more about these events vs stating "the so called placard from 305" battling back and forth gets nowhere.

This Thursday I will be working right beside a Boeing warehouse. I'm not sure what the operation is about but they might be a foot in the door in asking questions or directing me to them. we will see..

Lets tone the attitudes down while we are at this...

Toned down version 837625901.867 follows.

The maps the pilots were using were Low Altitude IFR maps that do not show topographical information.  Further, the airliner was above several cloud layers with an overcast at 5000 feet and it is unlikely that they could even see the ground.

So Captain Scott's mentioned of Lake Merwin is not going to be absolutely precise and was probably arrived at some time after the actual flight.  In the airliner was on V-23, it would be several miles west of Lake Merwin.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2992 on: March 02, 2021, 03:14:32 PM »
Quote
Toned down version 837625901.867 follows.

Why?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2993 on: March 02, 2021, 06:13:53 PM »
My two cents on Dona and the weather:

Dona was a true creature of the Cooper Vortex. Everything she said about Norjak she said with authority - she was never open to a discussion about what she saw, heard, or was told. Period.

That said, she was a kind and generous person. I liked her, and I loved her parties.

As for the weather, Dona - and others - say it was hellacious. Maybe it was for a few moments as a storm cell moved through.

Did she hear a jet plane? Maybe. But unlikely. 305 at 4K? Maybe. But unlikely - even the feds say 305 was further west, approaching Battleground and at 10K. The F-106s? Maybe. But unlikely, as they were climbing to 20K as per Cliff Ammerman's statements.

Lastly, in general Dona gave kinda-useful, kinda-truthful information about Norjak. Meyer and I spent half an afternoon chasing down her claims on the Amboy chute, to no avail. BTW: getting from the Arial Tavern to Amboy is a long-haul. Finding a bridge across the Lewis is tough - either drive back to Woodland, or head east and wind one's way through the Yale Valley. About an hour either way. Yet, Green Mountain, the alleged landing site of the Amboy chute and DBC, is but a stone's throw from the back door of the tavern across the Lewis River valley.

Did DB Cooper actually come to the Tavern? Dona said he did.

Did Dona confuse Mike Cooper with Dan Cooper? She might have. I know I was confused when she told me about Mike, as I hadn't seen the full passenger list, yet.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 06:23:41 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2994 on: March 02, 2021, 10:10:21 PM »
I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?
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Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2995 on: March 02, 2021, 10:30:49 PM »
weather underground give options to go back in time..
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2996 on: March 02, 2021, 11:57:08 PM »
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I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?

I am staying out of this. Its endless and pointless. Certain parties are going to hold onto their claims no matter what - to the end of Life.

If you want Tom Kaye docs write Tom Kaye!

If you want previous wx posts go to DZ. Search Hominid, who R99 disagreed with. Hom used Carr's FBI wx files Carr provided. Here is one of them. There are many pages...  Carr turned to Hominid for interpretation and advice in the wx matter using original wx docs. Hom copied me with all docs and the conversations.... 

Beyond that this discussion is as pointless as antlers on a Miller Lite! Except to say the orig docs still exist. Posting limits here prevent posting any of them ...     
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 12:07:27 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2997 on: March 03, 2021, 12:01:04 AM »
Here's another - good luck.

Weve been over this thousands of times. Credit goes to R99 and his kind for holding back the ocean of progress ... R99 is the Better Man and WINS!
One minute 99 says they couldnt see anything on the ground - next minute he may concede someone said 'could see the lights of Portland coming '. But any concession will be brief and fleeting. Dont hold R99 to anything.  ;)  Its pointless and impossible. Better to just ask the nurse to wheel you out of the room! The nurses get paid to handle this kind of stuff . . . my sympathies to them.     

Good night Margarette.  :rofl:

 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 12:21:02 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2998 on: March 03, 2021, 01:59:18 AM »
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I’ve searched uselessly for it, so could someone tell me where I can find the weather data from the night of the hijacking that Tom Kaye produced, please?

I am staying out of this. Its endless and pointless. Certain parties are going to hold onto their claims no matter what - to the end of Life.

If you want Tom Kaye docs write Tom Kaye!

If you want previous wx posts go to DZ. Search Hominid, who R99 disagreed with. Hom used Carr's FBI wx files Carr provided. Here is one of them. There are many pages...  Carr turned to Hominid for interpretation and advice in the wx matter using original wx docs. Hom copied me with all docs and the conversations.... 

Beyond that this discussion is as pointless as antlers on a Miller Lite! Except to say the orig docs still exist. Posting limits here prevent posting any of them ...     

Georger, what you refer to as "Carr's FBI wx files" were produced by the National Weather Service and the FAA.  They are not an FBI product.

Just exactly what did I disagree with Hominid about?  If I remember correctly, since it was about 8 or 10 years ago, I am the one who provided Hominid with these files to begin with and we discussed them at length.  Tom Kaye originally provided these files to me to use in the original placard drift calculations. I think Carr provided them to Kaye.  And I passed things on to Hominid.

There is more to this story but Georger's version is not correct.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #2999 on: March 03, 2021, 02:08:31 AM »
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Here's another - good luck.

Weve been over this thousands of times. Credit goes to R99 and his kind for holding back the ocean of progress ... R99 is the Better Man and WINS!
One minute 99 says they couldnt see anything on the ground - next minute he may concede someone said 'could see the lights of Portland coming '. But any concession will be brief and fleeting. Dont hold R99 to anything.  ;)  Its pointless and impossible. Better to just ask the nurse to wheel you out of the room! The nurses get paid to handle this kind of stuff . . . my sympathies to them.     

Good night Margarette.  :rofl:

Just more Georger nonsense.  The commonly held opinion here is that the pilots could see the "glow" of the lights of Portland through the two or three cloud layers and the overcast but not the lights themselves.  Anyone who has spent much time flying at night in cloudy weather over large cities can understand what the pilots meant.  In fact, I think one of the pilots confirmed that it was the "glow" of the lights that they saw.