Author Topic: General Questions About The Case  (Read 401055 times)

Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #75 on: December 13, 2014, 05:49:25 PM »
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One of the reasons they were worried about fuel was Rataczak went to 30 degrees on the flaps. this put an more drag on the plane. they would of never made it in that configuration. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slowing down to about 160 KIAS. soon after he switches to 30 degrees. the transcripts, or log shows the plane 14 miles DME at 7:40. this can not be met at the speed the plane was going. Rataczak said somewhere I recall about the stairs causing vibrations, and this was the reason he switched to 30 degrees, but that doesn't jive with the records. anyone have an answer on that one?

Cooper has the steps down somewhere close, or around McChord AFB.

9;30 rolls around, and they are not sure if Cooper is on the plane, so they ask to lower the cabin pressure to slow his reflexes down along with climbing to 11,000. who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?

who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?

who?   ????????????????

The three members of the flight crew probably were using their oxygen system, which is separate from the cabin system.  Presumably, there would be a fourth mask for the jump seat and thus Tina could use it if desired.  So if anyone actually went to sleep, it probably would be Tina since the flight crew was busy flying the airplane.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 05:50:37 PM by Robert99 »
 

Moriarty

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #76 on: December 13, 2014, 05:52:48 PM »
Okay well, sorry to ruin it for everybody, but bad news for the FBI and all of you who have invested your time into Cooper. I just watched an excellent documentary on space travel called The Reluctant Astronaut and if I can apply what I'm calling the "floating peanut butter snake theory" to this 727 config issue, I will be blown' the doors off of this case.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #77 on: December 13, 2014, 06:51:04 PM »
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One of the reasons they were worried about fuel was Rataczak went to 30 degrees on the flaps. this put an more drag on the plane. they would of never made it in that configuration. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slowing down to about 160 KIAS. soon after he switches to 30 degrees. the transcripts, or log shows the plane 14 miles DME at 7:40. this can not be met at the speed the plane was going. Rataczak said somewhere I recall about the stairs causing vibrations, and this was the reason he switched to 30 degrees, but that doesn't jive with the records. anyone have an answer on that one?

Cooper has the steps down somewhere close, or around McChord AFB.

9;30 rolls around, and they are not sure if Cooper is on the plane, so they ask to lower the cabin pressure to slow his reflexes down along with climbing to 11,000. who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?

who fell asleep after the oscillation, and the pressure bump earlier?

who?   ????????????????

The three members of the flight crew probably were using their oxygen system, which is separate from the cabin system.  Presumably, there would be a fourth mask for the jump seat and thus Tina could use it if desired.  So if anyone actually went to sleep, it probably would be Tina since the flight crew was busy flying the airplane.

What I was talking about is the fact of them pretty much knowing he bailed over an hour ago, and yet they still try some tricks and fail to take a peak in the back? they were aware the stairs were down for some time. then they realized he probably jumped, but that was only Cooper on the stairs. soon after that a pressure bump is felt, but we don't have anything on the transcripts to verify this account, but Rat confirms it. now, over an hour later they want to slow his reflexes down?

Shouldn't the "really smart guys" know Cooper already bailed somewhere past the 8:12 mark, or when Rataczak told them of the bump? it doesn't sound like they were positive he jumped somewhere around Battleground?

I should of said "who fell a sleep at the wheel" after indications not once, but twice that it probably left the plane. :-\ :-\ :-\
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 07:03:52 PM by shutter »
 

Moriarty

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #78 on: December 13, 2014, 09:40:49 PM »
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According to the transcripts the jump time was recorded, or at least they thought so. they should have looked in the back like most of the other hijackings. If they thought he jumped in the 8:12 position, why didn't they land at PDX as instructed? where is it quoted they were instructed to land if he bailed?

A lot of time passed when they mentioned not knowing if he was still on the plane, but mentioned the most probable area he bailed? In fact they asked 305 over an hour later to climb to 11,000 to try and slow his actions down if he was still on board. the climb was also need to avoid terrain. they could only go so high as to not deploying

Cooper never gave instruction on how to go to Mexico. he also noted a flight plan could be made in flight.

As usual we have two possibilities. since he had trouble with the stairs it could of caused the delay in his plan. since he had no real idea where he was due to cloud coverage I doubt he intended to jump where they believe he did on purpose. it's all speculation whether he could of seen the lights at the dam, or anywhere else guiding his path.

McCoy was very precise in asking the crew questions about altitude, speed, direction, and weather. Cooper did nothing of the sort. I'm not convinced he was aware where exactly where he was when he bailed.

Hope this makes sense, I'm a little behind getting out the door this morning..... ;D

While in SEA
- 305 states they need to leave, spooling up. 305, not Cooper, states get us in direction of PDX, 305 will figure flightpath in the air.
- 305 states that they're in a rut with Cooper. He's insisting aft stairs down. 305 states can't take off with aft stairs down. Cooper wants them down when airborne, "fly with it down so he can bail out at any time" (pilots guess.) Cooper ordered chutes pre-landing, Everybody knows he's going to jump.
- 305 gets affirmation V23 while on the taxiway for takeoff. MSP haven't had time to check but feel best option somewhere along the coast. (that's later where that question arises.) GC or MSP (?) States V23 is over the valley. States populated most of the way but gives 305 "no restrictions at all, you fly the best way you can do her"

It is possible that Cooper had the lights off thinking he would see something but sounds like he wouldn't have. If so the only real backup for that is the knowledge of the time from a watch/clock, maybe he had taken a SEA-SOUTHBOUND flight(?) or driven it etc, or I suppose a "I guess I'm a bit out of Seattle-general area-money's secured-see you later suckers" close enough scenario.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2014, 09:58:18 PM by Moriarty »
 

Moriarty

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #79 on: December 14, 2014, 07:27:32 PM »
what's up with Loren Peterson's recollections of the money. $250k? Black crew bag?
 

georger

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #80 on: December 14, 2014, 11:41:04 PM »
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what's up with Loren Peterson's recollections of the money. $250k? Black crew bag?

... and a yellow CO2 life raft in each back chute? 
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #81 on: December 15, 2014, 01:08:06 AM »
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what's up with Loren Peterson's recollections of the money. $250k? Black crew bag?


And the emphatic statement from Marianne Lincoln of Shady Acres Airport in Spanaway, WA who says that she heard Seattle Control on VHF talk about the $400,000 that the skyjacker wanted.
 

Offline andrade1812

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #82 on: December 27, 2014, 04:48:59 PM »
Debating whether I want to buy any of the "peripheral" books of the DB Cooper case, Gunther's book, or DB Cooper's Parachute, or even the books on KC/BDayton/McCoy. Any thoughts?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #83 on: December 27, 2014, 06:11:30 PM »
Calame and Rhodes on McCoy is a must. It is a unique contribution to the Cooper literature, and is also a gem in the pantheon of true-crime accounts by a cop. It is well-written and touches on subjects that the FBI would not allow their agents to write about these days. A treasure for all time.

Barb Dayton. Yes. Get the second edition copy of Ron and Pat Forman's book. It is more complete, has a ton o' pix, and is better written. Is Barb DB Cooper? I doubt it, but Barb was a fascinating person and her confession is one of the best analyses of how DB Cooper could have done the caper successfully.

KC. Well, if you want to know all the principals in the cat fight over at the DZ, then you gotta read this book. But it's basically trash and filled with inaccuracies and woeful assumptions.

Max's book is a fun read. I read the copy from my library. Besides, the main character Clara says she and DB Cooper lived just down the road from me at Hofstra University, so that was cool.

DB Cooper's Parachute I've never read and it is doubtful I ever will.  If you do, let me know.

Similarly, you can skip Bradley's book about his dad, or read my synopsis at the MN. Forget Grey Cop, etc....
 

Offline nmiwrecks

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #84 on: January 02, 2015, 08:59:21 AM »
The Cooper suspect seemed to know certain information about the 727, flaps, speed, aft-stairs. He seemed to think the plane could take off with the stairs deployed.  Could it?  They were damaged when it landed.  Are there any known instances of 727s taking off with the stairs deployed.
"If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got." - Henry Ford
 

Offline sailshaw

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #85 on: January 02, 2015, 10:36:54 AM »
nmwrecks:   You say "The Cooper suspect seemed to know certain information about the 727, flaps, speed, aft-stairs. He seemed to think the plane could take off with the stairs deployed.  Could it?  They were damaged when it landed.  Are there any known instances of 727s taking off with the stairs deployed."

I say:   "It was know around Boeing that the company had made demonstration take-offs and landings with the stairs deployed for our government to interest them into buying and using the 727's to drop personnel and equipment from the air.  These demonstrations were performed at the Boeing test airport in Moses Lake Washington. The same airport where JAL trained their pilots. Sheridan Peterson (my # 1 suspect) worked for a short time at Boeing in the Manuals and Handbooks Group where he could have found out all he needed to know about the 727 and could have called the Mechanical Systems Engineers (the ones that designed the Airstairs) to discuss what he needed to know about the 727 Airstairs. He could have even used his Boeing Badge to visit and use the Airstairs test rig in the B-29 hanger located on the East side of Boeing Field. That same building housed the 727 FCTR (Flight Control Test Rig) that had all the hydraulics layed out in full aircraft positions including the Airstairs. His office was on the other side of Boeing field in the 9-101 building just above the M & P (Manufacturing and Processes Lab on the 1st floor) where he could have got all the titanium (alloyed and pure) and aluminum metals on his tie as he looked into the scrap bins around the outside walls of the lab. He would have passed those bins at least two times a day. I know my tie often swung into the bins as I looked through the neat scrap being discarded. My office was up stairs too in the same building."

This was a very well planned caper and nothing was overlooked except the use of DNA which the FBI has yet to look at under the four envelop flaps and stamps of the letters sent to the news papers shortly after Norjak. Why haven't the FBI looked at the evidence they have and compared the DNA with what they have taken from Sheridan? They are so close as a match (which I am sure they would get) would show Sheridan was in Portland when his phony alibi was he was in Nepal. There is still time as Sheridan is still alive and living in California but getting older. Time is short now but the FBI could make an easy check of the DNA and solve their only unsolved skyjacking.

Bob Sailshaw
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Robert99

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #86 on: January 02, 2015, 02:15:33 PM »
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The Cooper suspect seemed to know certain information about the 727, flaps, speed, aft-stairs. He seemed to think the plane could take off with the stairs deployed.  Could it?  They were damaged when it landed.  Are there any known instances of 727s taking off with the stairs deployed.

From a flight dynamics point of view, there is no reason why the 727 could not easily take off with the aft stairs down but unlocked.  If the aft stairs were locked down, as they were during passenger loading and unloading, it would present more of a problem but could quite possibility be done but with some damage to the stairs.  The stairs down and locked would present difficulties in rotating (raising the nose) for take off but at high speed I think the longitudinal control power would be sufficient to overcome the resistance from the stairs, and thereby collapse the stairs.

During the landing in Reno, the stairs were unlocked and only dropped to the pavement after the landing, as the aircraft was turning off the runway.  The damage was very slight and I think there is a picture of it somewhere on this site and definitely on other sites.  The hijacked airliner was flown back to Seattle the following day and back in regular service within another day or so.  This is discussed in the NWA paperwork at the WSHM site.

I think there are pictures somewhere of 727s in Southeast Asia taxiing with the aft stairs partially down.  Cooper's statement that he knew that the 727 could take off with the aft stairs (at least partially) down should be accepted at face value.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #87 on: January 02, 2015, 03:50:45 PM »
The last flight out of Vietnam (Da Nang) the plane took off with the rear stairs down. the condition of the plane wasn't suppose to fly at all, but it did. they didn't really have a choice to pull the stairs up.

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: General Questions About The Case
« Reply #88 on: January 02, 2015, 05:35:04 PM »
They didn't seem to know a 707 could barrel roll....

 

FLYJACK

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In Search of Dan Cooper the movie
« Reply #89 on: January 06, 2015, 01:42:04 AM »
The movie "In Search of Dan Cooper" is available free streaming on CBC, dubbed into english. However, there might be a Canada only restriction. Maybe you can try a VPN, not sure if a proxy would work. I am no expert on these things..

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