Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 734901 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4380 on: September 15, 2021, 02:54:34 AM »
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So what are the the Harrison TTY printout rolls produced by ARINC?     

No one is saying the HARRISON NOTES were redacted. But the public version of the TTY rolls were redacted ?

BTW, a full OCR version of the TTY roll is available. Have you ever seen it? Huh?

Georger, you were the one claiming that the Harrison Notes were redacted.  The picture you attached above is the ARINC TTY roll that was loaned to WSHM along with other items.  The WSHM digital group analyzed that roll and determined that portions of it had been redacted.

If you know of a "full OCR version of the TTY roll", then get in touch with the WSHM and I am sure that they would like to get a copy for their Cooper exhibit.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4381 on: September 15, 2021, 05:03:17 AM »
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So what are the the Harrison TTY printout rolls produced by ARINC?     

No one is saying the HARRISON NOTES were redacted. But the public version of the TTY rolls were redacted ?

BTW, a full OCR version of the TTY roll is available. Have you ever seen it? Huh?

Georger, you were the one claiming that the Harrison Notes were redacted.  The picture you attached above is the ARINC TTY roll that was loaned to WSHM along with other items.  The WSHM digital group analyzed that roll and determined that portions of it had been redacted.

If you know of a "full OCR version of the TTY roll", then get in touch with the WSHM and I am sure that they would like to get a copy for their Cooper exhibit.

OK. 
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 05:35:49 AM by georger »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4382 on: October 07, 2021, 10:01:04 AM »
Wish I could find the recent post by the member who said he is a skydiver and believes Cooper made it UNLESS HE LANDED IN THE WATER?  Why do many believe he could not have survived a water landing?  I have heard often that these chutes can be used as floatation devices in emergency water landings?  This was not near Buffalo in my neck of the woods and even if he landed in Lake Ontario or the Niagara River in November he would have a fighting chance, assuming he can swim?  This River, the Colombia does not look so daunting to me.  if he landed in the dead middle of that lake?  Then his chances are not as good. But I do not know the dimensions or how big it is.  I doubt its as big as Ontario and I wonder if you can see land from any point of it?  My opinion is and will remain, he made it until proven otherwise.  Is he still alive?  Totally different question.  Id give him about a 30-40% chance.
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4383 on: October 07, 2021, 10:17:57 AM »
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Wish I could find the recent post by the member who said he is a skydiver and believes Cooper made it UNLESS HE LANDED IN THE WATER?  Why do many believe he could not have survived a water landing?  I have heard often that these chutes can be used as floatation devices in emergency water landings?  This was not near Buffalo in my neck of the woods and even if he landed in Lake Ontario or the Niagara River in November he would have a fighting chance, assuming he can swim?  This River, the Colombia does not look so daunting to me.  if he landed in the dead middle of that lake?  Then his chances are not as good. But I do not know the dimensions or how big it is.  I doubt its as big as Ontario and I wonder if you can see land from any point of it?  My opinion is and will remain, he made it until proven otherwise.  Is he still alive?  Totally different question.  Id give him about a 30-40% chance.

Having a parachute on in the water is tough.  Add in moving water, cold, nighttime, then his chances of surviving are low.  But still no body, no money, no missing persons.  My issue with people talking about a water landing is over simple math.  The possible land area he could have landed on versus the possible water area is a ratio of maybe 10 to 1, maybe more.  Even if he jumped right over the Columbia, he still would have much more of a chance of landing on land than water.  I've posted the pic before, but all one has to do is look at Google Maps of the area and see that the water makes up a small portion of the area.  If it were Minnesota with all the lakes, then maybe there is a higher chance.





 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4384 on: October 07, 2021, 02:53:43 PM »
FlyJack is making some claims over at DropZone that relate to the flight path, but not in the way he thinks.  FJ claims that in a DVD Rataczak states that Cooper jumped 28 miles north of Portland (presumably the Portland International Airport).  According to the so-called FBI map, which FJ believes to be correct, that would place the jump point at the 8:07 PM point on the map.  This does not support the NWA flight crew's estimate of an 8:11 PM jump time.  And if the 8:11 PM jump time is correct, and other sources indicate it is as close as can be determined, then the FBI flight path can not be correct.

FJ also claims that the airliner was visually following I-5 south at Cooper's orders.  FJ apparently does not understand VORTAC radio navigation and completely ignores the weather which prevented the airliner crew from even seeing ground objects since they were above an overcast and several additional cloud layers.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4385 on: October 07, 2021, 07:04:19 PM »
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Wish I could find the recent post by the member who said he is a skydiver and believes Cooper made it UNLESS HE LANDED IN THE WATER?  Why do many believe he could not have survived a water landing?  I have heard often that these chutes can be used as floatation devices in emergency water landings? 


IF he lands in the river, here are his issues:

How cold is the water, as in how quickly might hypothermia be an issue?

What is the current, as in if the parachute ends up downstream of him, how much of a 'pull' is awkwardly affecting him? The parachute that he used does not detach from the harness, so he cannot easily jettison it.

If the parachute lands on top of him, or wraps around him due to the current, that is a problem.

Packed parachutes can serve as temporary flotation, but he does not have a second, still-packed chute. The money bag might do the same, but how quickly does the air let out and it gets soaked with water?

He could conceivably get out of the harness and swim away, but the money bag tied to him would be in the way, and the other factors above could make that difficult.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4386 on: October 07, 2021, 11:18:04 PM »
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Wish I could find the recent post by the member who said he is a skydiver and believes Cooper made it UNLESS HE LANDED IN THE WATER?  Why do many believe he could not have survived a water landing?  I have heard often that these chutes can be used as floatation devices in emergency water landings? 


IF he lands in the river, here are his issues:

How cold is the water, as in how quickly might hypothermia be an issue?

What is the current, as in if the parachute ends up downstream of him, how much of a 'pull' is awkwardly affecting him? The parachute that he used does not detach from the harness, so he cannot easily jettison it.

If the parachute lands on top of him, or wraps around him due to the current, that is a problem.

Packed parachutes can serve as temporary flotation, but he does not have a second, still-packed chute. The money bag might do the same, but how quickly does the air let out and it gets soaked with water?

He could conceivably get out of the harness and swim away, but the money bag tied to him would be in the way, and the other factors above could make that difficult.

Tosaw had tunnel vision - he apparently thought the mere fact of money at Tena Bar meant C had to have landed in the river.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2021, 11:20:58 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4387 on: October 07, 2021, 11:27:29 PM »
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Tosaw had tunnel vision - he thought the mere fact of money at Tena Bar meant C had to have landed in the river.  ;)

in terms of tunnel vision:
I'm amazed at people who claim the FBI post-hijack experiments, were sufficient to "prove" when/where cooper jumped, based on pressure bumps and oscillations.

Whatever the FBI experiments proved, they didn't prove Cooper could not have jumped by Portland.
Sure, something probably happened up farther north too. But whatever happened there, doesn't mean Cooper couldn't have still been on the plane and jumped by Portland.

People want to believe that the experiments and pilot's testimony "prove" Cooper had to have jumped there. But there's just not enough experiments/data/info. It's possible, but not a sure thing.

The money find says Cooper jumped near the Columbia. There's really no other scenario that makes sense.

And: the amount of money found (maybe just one "bundle" as given to Cooper) and condition of the money, aligns with being at the bottom of the Columbia for a number of years, and then extracted by dredge.

It's funny that people try to calculate the risk of the actual jump to a fine degree, but seem a bit willy-nilly about the probability calculations of other scenarios that are attached to an overall story.
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4388 on: October 07, 2021, 11:47:54 PM »
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Tosaw had tunnel vision - he thought the mere fact of money at Tena Bar meant C had to have landed in the river.  ;)

in terms of tunnel vision:
I'm amazed at people who claim the FBI post-hijack experiments, were sufficient to "prove" when/where cooper jumped, based on pressure bumps and oscillations.

Whatever the FBI experiments proved, they didn't prove Cooper could not have jumped by Portland.
Sure, something probably happened up farther north too. But whatever happened there, doesn't mean Cooper couldn't have still been on the plane and jumped by Portland.

People want to believe that the experiments and pilot's testimony "prove" Cooper had to have jumped there. But there's just not enough experiments/data/info. It's possible, but not a sure thing.

The money find says Cooper jumped near the Columbia. There's really no other scenario that makes sense.

And: the amount of money found (maybe just one "bundle" as given to Cooper) and condition of the money, aligns with being at the bottom of the Columbia for a number of years, and then extracted by dredge.

It's funny that people try to calculate the risk of the actual jump to a fine degree, but seem a bit willy-nilly about the probability calculations of other scenarios that are attached to an overall story.
Quoted for truth.

If one believes that Cooper safely landed in the FBI dropzone, then one must reasonably explain how some of the money ended up in the Columbia 18 miles southwest of there and at least 6 months after the jump.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 12:20:57 AM by Chaucer »
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Offline JAG

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4389 on: October 08, 2021, 07:07:37 AM »
So in the spirit of exploring the possibility that Cooper didn't jump at the time (~8:11 etc) of the pressure bump, is there a way that someone could exit a 727 from the aft stairwell under given altitude and speed conditions without causing the pressure bump ?

I believe that the 305 crew reported that after the 8:11 bump, they didn't experience that again for the rest of the flight, (I will have to go back and verify this). If this is true, then he had to have exited in a way that didn't cause the bump.

Is a literal knee bend with a jump off of the stairs required to create the springing action on the stairwell that causes the bump ? Or will any form of weight removal from the stairs cause the stairs to bounce or spring back up ?

One data point is the Martin Mcnally (copy cat) hijack.  I believe I read that he went down the stairs on his ass and then turned around and held on with his hands while his feet were dangling and then simply let go.   The pilots and crew of the Mcnally hijacking also experienced the pressure bump with Mcnally's exit as well.

So for the 8:11pm bump not to be Coop's jump, there would have to be a way to exit the plane without creating a bump right ?  Or am I missing something ?  Unless it's possible for some other factor that could cause the crew to not have noticed ?
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4390 on: October 08, 2021, 08:02:32 AM »
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So in the spirit of exploring the possibility that Cooper didn't jump at the time (~8:11 etc) of the pressure bump, is there a way that someone could exit a 727 from the aft stairwell under given altitude and speed conditions without causing the pressure bump ?

I believe that the 305 crew reported that after the 8:11 bump, they didn't experience that again for the rest of the flight, (I will have to go back and verify this). If this is true, then he had to have exited in a way that didn't cause the bump.

Is a literal knee bend with a jump off of the stairs required to create the springing action on the stairwell that causes the bump ? Or will any form of weight removal from the stairs cause the stairs to bounce or spring back up ?

One data point is the Martin Mcnally (copy cat) hijack.  I believe I read that he went down the stairs on his ass and then turned around and held on with his hands while his feet were dangling and then simply let go.   The pilots and crew of the Mcnally hijacking also experienced the pressure bump with Mcnally's exit as well.

So for the 8:11pm bump not to be Coop's jump, there would have to be a way to exit the plane without creating a bump right ?  Or am I missing something ?  Unless it's possible for some other factor that could cause the crew to not have noticed ?
I approach it differently. I don't doubt that the pressure bump felt was Cooper exiting the aircraft. However, I don't think that happened at 8:11. 8:11 is when the crew first reported experiencing "oscillations" and that he was "doing something with the stairs". The time of the "pressure bump" - the larger, more noticeable change in air pressure - is not documented and is unknown. All we know is that it happened some time after the oscillations are reported at 8:11.

In the 302s, the FBI continually confused these two terms - pressure oscillations and pressure bump - and that confusion lingers today. Still, they were two distinct things. My point is that we don't know the exact time of the pressure bump; thus, we don't know the exact time Cooper jumped.
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Offline JAG

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4391 on: October 08, 2021, 08:14:59 AM »
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So in the spirit of exploring the possibility that Cooper didn't jump at the time (~8:11 etc) of the pressure bump, is there a way that someone could exit a 727 from the aft stairwell under given altitude and speed conditions without causing the pressure bump ?

I believe that the 305 crew reported that after the 8:11 bump, they didn't experience that again for the rest of the flight, (I will have to go back and verify this). If this is true, then he had to have exited in a way that didn't cause the bump.

Is a literal knee bend with a jump off of the stairs required to create the springing action on the stairwell that causes the bump ? Or will any form of weight removal from the stairs cause the stairs to bounce or spring back up ?

One data point is the Martin Mcnally (copy cat) hijack.  I believe I read that he went down the stairs on his ass and then turned around and held on with his hands while his feet were dangling and then simply let go.   The pilots and crew of the Mcnally hijacking also experienced the pressure bump with Mcnally's exit as well.

So for the 8:11pm bump not to be Coop's jump, there would have to be a way to exit the plane without creating a bump right ?  Or am I missing something ?  Unless it's possible for some other factor that could cause the crew to not have noticed ?
I approach it differently. I don't doubt that the pressure bump felt was Cooper exiting the aircraft. However, I don't think that happened at 8:11. 8:11 is when the crew first reported experiencing "oscillations" and that he was "doing something with the stairs". The time of the "pressure bump" - the larger, more noticeable change in air pressure - is not documented and is unknown. All we know is that it happened some time after the oscillations are reported at 8:11.

In the 302s, the FBI continually confused these two terms - pressure oscillations and pressure bump - and that confusion lingers today. Still, they were two distinct things. My point is that we don't know the exact time of the pressure bump; thus, we don't know the exact time Cooper jumped.

Thanks Chaucer, good point...I know discussions on this board have ranged from 8:13 to I believe as late as 8:16 or 8:17.  All the variability having to do with the oscillations leading to a bump and the flight crew not recalling the exact amount of time that passed between.  That's another Cooper rabbit hole.... ;D
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4392 on: October 08, 2021, 08:43:05 AM »
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Wish I could find the recent post by the member who said he is a skydiver and believes Cooper made it UNLESS HE LANDED IN THE WATER?  Why do many believe he could not have survived a water landing?  I have heard often that these chutes can be used as floatation devices in emergency water landings?  This was not near Buffalo in my neck of the woods and even if he landed in Lake Ontario or the Niagara River in November he would have a fighting chance, assuming he can swim?  This River, the Colombia does not look so daunting to me.  if he landed in the dead middle of that lake?  Then his chances are not as good. But I do not know the dimensions or how big it is.  I doubt its as big as Ontario and I wonder if you can see land from any point of it?  My opinion is and will remain, he made it until proven otherwise.  Is he still alive?  Totally different question.  Id give him about a 30-40% chance.

Having a parachute on in the water is tough.  Add in moving water, cold, nighttime, then his chances of surviving are low.  But still no body, no money, no missing persons.  My issue with people talking about a water landing is over simple math.  The possible land area he could have landed on versus the possible water area is a ratio of maybe 10 to 1, maybe more.  Even if he jumped right over the Columbia, he still would have much more of a chance of landing on land than water.  I've posted the pic before, but all one has to do is look at Google Maps of the area and see that the water makes up a small portion of the area.  If it were Minnesota with all the lakes, then maybe there is a higher chance.

Thanks for the response.  I believe he survived the jump.  Absolutely
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4393 on: October 08, 2021, 10:44:50 AM »
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So in the spirit of exploring the possibility that Cooper didn't jump at the time (~8:11 etc) of the pressure bump, is there a way that someone could exit a 727 from the aft stairwell under given altitude and speed conditions without causing the pressure bump ?

I believe that the 305 crew reported that after the 8:11 bump, they didn't experience that again for the rest of the flight, (I will have to go back and verify this). If this is true, then he had to have exited in a way that didn't cause the bump.

Is a literal knee bend with a jump off of the stairs required to create the springing action on the stairwell that causes the bump ? Or will any form of weight removal from the stairs cause the stairs to bounce or spring back up ?

One data point is the Martin Mcnally (copy cat) hijack.  I believe I read that he went down the stairs on his ass and then turned around and held on with his hands while his feet were dangling and then simply let go.   The pilots and crew of the Mcnally hijacking also experienced the pressure bump with Mcnally's exit as well.

So for the 8:11pm bump not to be Coop's jump, there would have to be a way to exit the plane without creating a bump right ?  Or am I missing something ?  Unless it's possible for some other factor that could cause the crew to not have noticed ?
I approach it differently. I don't doubt that the pressure bump felt was Cooper exiting the aircraft. However, I don't think that happened at 8:11. 8:11 is when the crew first reported experiencing "oscillations" and that he was "doing something with the stairs". The time of the "pressure bump" - the larger, more noticeable change in air pressure - is not documented and is unknown. All we know is that it happened some time after the oscillations are reported at 8:11.

In the 302s, the FBI continually confused these two terms - pressure oscillations and pressure bump - and that confusion lingers today. Still, they were two distinct things. My point is that we don't know the exact time of the pressure bump; thus, we don't know the exact time Cooper jumped.

Thanks Chaucer, good point...I know discussions on this board have ranged from 8:13 to I believe as late as 8:16 or 8:17.  All the variability having to do with the oscillations leading to a bump and the flight crew not recalling the exact amount of time that passed between.  That's another Cooper rabbit hole.... ;D
Just my opinion based on my interpretation of what I’ve read. A lot of folks vehemently disagree with me. They’re certainly entitled to.
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4394 on: October 08, 2021, 12:23:55 PM »
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So in the spirit of exploring the possibility that Cooper didn't jump at the time (~8:11 etc) of the pressure bump, is there a way that someone could exit a 727 from the aft stairwell under given altitude and speed conditions without causing the pressure bump ?

I believe that the 305 crew reported that after the 8:11 bump, they didn't experience that again for the rest of the flight, (I will have to go back and verify this). If this is true, then he had to have exited in a way that didn't cause the bump.

Is a literal knee bend with a jump off of the stairs required to create the springing action on the stairwell that causes the bump ? Or will any form of weight removal from the stairs cause the stairs to bounce or spring back up ?

One data point is the Martin Mcnally (copy cat) hijack.  I believe I read that he went down the stairs on his ass and then turned around and held on with his hands while his feet were dangling and then simply let go.   The pilots and crew of the Mcnally hijacking also experienced the pressure bump with Mcnally's exit as well.

So for the 8:11pm bump not to be Coop's jump, there would have to be a way to exit the plane without creating a bump right ?  Or am I missing something ?  Unless it's possible for some other factor that could cause the crew to not have noticed ?
I approach it differently. I don't doubt that the pressure bump felt was Cooper exiting the aircraft. However, I don't think that happened at 8:11. 8:11 is when the crew first reported experiencing "oscillations" and that he was "doing something with the stairs". The time of the "pressure bump" - the larger, more noticeable change in air pressure - is not documented and is unknown. All we know is that it happened some time after the oscillations are reported at 8:11.

In the 302s, the FBI continually confused these two terms - pressure oscillations and pressure bump - and that confusion lingers today. Still, they were two distinct things. My point is that we don't know the exact time of the pressure bump; thus, we don't know the exact time Cooper jumped.

Thanks Chaucer, good point...I know discussions on this board have ranged from 8:13 to I believe as late as 8:16 or 8:17.  All the variability having to do with the oscillations leading to a bump and the flight crew not recalling the exact amount of time that passed between.  That's another Cooper rabbit hole.... ;D

According to George Harrison's notes, at 8:18 PM the flight crew reported over the ARINC radio link that they were 28 DME miles (which are nautical miles) south of the Portland VORTAC (which is now known as the Battleground VORTAC).  The same information was transmitted over the ARINC teletype network at 8:22 PM.

This supports the jump time as being 8:11 to 8:12 PM.

Also, the stairs have to be substantially lowered for Cooper to have enough room to jump and he has to be near the bottom of the stairs for this to happen.  Cooper jumping will result in the stairs slamming back into the fuselage.