Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tina Bar Money Find  (Read 540566 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5775 on: March 04, 2021, 05:07:51 PM »
If he landed in the water, he would be presented with a series of dangerous obstacles. He certainly COULD have survived, but the circumstances he would have faced would have made it extremely difficult.

For instance:
His age
The cold water of the Columbia
The current of the Columbia
The canopy landing on top of him
Getting tangled in the lines
The weight of the money
The awkwardness of the chute pack in the water
The darkness
The shock and disorientation
Panic

Unintentional water landings are dangerous and a frequent cause of fatalities. Doesn’t mean it’s a guarantee that Cooper couldn’t survive an accidental water landing at night, but I think it’s inaccurate to dismiss the danger and potential threat to his life.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5776 on: March 04, 2021, 06:07:50 PM »
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Of course once in the water it would not be as heavy, it would have some flotation to it would it not?  But there is no proof he landed in water. If he was lets say, within sight of the shorline, maybe less than 50 yards, could he not at least manuever the parachute just enough by pulling one of the chords to ensure he would not hit water?  Or not?

I don't mean to get on your case, but for the third time in direct response to a post by you: If Cooper used his knife to effect the four line release mod I described (possible, but probably extremely unlikely), he would have a bit, but not a lot of control over it. Whether this would help him avoid landing in the water would depend on his experience, how well he reads his wind drift, and how early (from what altitude) he is using his control in relation to specific landing areas/obstacles. If he rides the chute as is, he has basically no control over it.

----

On water landings:

The weight of the money bag would not be like having 20 lbs of lead on. Yes, at first it would probably be a bit buoyant due to the air trapped inside, but that would change as it absorbed water. I think the main obstacle it would first pose would be that it would be in the way of trying to get out of the harness. All in all, if he landed in the water, his chances of survival are slim.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5777 on: March 04, 2021, 07:45:20 PM »
Keep in mind, If Tom Kaye is correct with the diatoms it dismisses landing in the water that evening.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5778 on: March 04, 2021, 07:59:46 PM »
I'll be visiting Tena Bar in a few weeks so if there are any special requests for pictures or measurements let me know.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5779 on: March 04, 2021, 08:07:25 PM »
You should consider buying a drone for some really good footage...easy to learn.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5780 on: March 04, 2021, 08:21:05 PM »
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Keep in mind, If Tom Kaye is correct with the diatoms it dismisses landing in the water that evening.
Well, he said that if the money was packed tightly it could prevent the diatoms from infiltrating in between the bills. Still and all, I think it’s doubtful Cooper landed in the river that night. Perhaps in the northern bank between the two bridges or one of the islands such as Tomahawk, Lemon, or Government.
 
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5781 on: March 04, 2021, 08:40:48 PM »
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Keep in mind, If Tom Kaye is correct with the diatoms it dismisses landing in the water that evening.

I don't know, nor do I have a theory on, where he landed. I was just throwing a few cents in on the IF theory.

----

I'll repeat the question I posed on the other thread...  (As always I could be wrong, but) Didn't Kaye's research show that the money had not been on Tina Bar as long as since the time of the hijacking? Didn't he conclude that it had only been there a year or two?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5782 on: March 04, 2021, 08:42:01 PM »
If the money entered the Columbia River near Tomahawk or certainly Government Island, I can tell you that it's a long trip down to Tena Bar--I believe at least 10 miles. I've boated from Tomahawk to Tena a few times and it's a long slow journey.

Also, the Columbia is a river with a deep channel--about 40 feet--with relatively shallow shoulders closer to the beach. Meaning, if the money entered the Columbia near the center of the river it would sink to the bottom of the channel and eventually be covered under feet of sediment--after all, that's why they dredge regularly.

I simply think that such a scenario is impossible. I believe you could throw a 20 lb bag of cash in the water near Tomahawk a million times and zero times have three separate packets end up buried at Tena Bar for 8 years.
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Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5783 on: March 04, 2021, 08:46:41 PM »
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Keep in mind, If Tom Kaye is correct with the diatoms it dismisses landing in the water that evening.

I don't know, nor do I have a theory on, where he landed. I was just throwing a few cents in on the IF theory.

----

I'll repeat the question I posed on the other thread...  (As always I could be wrong, but) Didn't Kaye's research show that the money had not been on Tina Bar as long as since the time of the hijacking? Didn't he conclude that it had only been there a year or two?

That is incorrect.

Tom's research showed that the money entered--or got wet from--the Columbia River only once during the month of June.

In fact, considering that the money had rotted--north of 75% of the bills were rotted away--indicates that the bills had likely been there the entire 8 years.

This is why I believe the money was buried at Tena Bar the night of the jump and retrieved (albeit three packets left behind) during a historic flood that just so happened to occur in June of 1972.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5784 on: March 04, 2021, 08:55:11 PM »
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If the money entered the Columbia River near Tomahawk or certainly Government Island, I can tell you that it's a long trip down to Tena Bar--I believe at least 10 miles. I've boated from Tomahawk to Tena a few times and it's a long slow journey.

Also, the Columbia is a river with a deep channel--about 40 feet--with relatively shallow shoulders closer to the beach. Meaning, if the money entered the Columbia near the center of the river it would sink to the bottom of the channel and eventually be covered under feet of sediment--after all, that's why they dredge regularly.

I simply think that such a scenario is impossible. I believe you could throw a 20 lb bag of cash in the water near Tomahawk a million times and zero times have three separate packets end up buried at Tena Bar for 8 years.
Again, I'm not suggesting the money entered the water and floated along the top by itself, or rolled along the bottom underwater. I'm suggesting it traveled downstream with some other mechanism such as a log, tree branch, or Cooper's body. Assuming an average current speed, that kind of flotsam would probably take 10 to 12 hours to travel from the area between I-5 bridge and the I-205 bridge to Tena Bar. Considering the flood conditions at the time, I don't think it's farfetched to have debris that has sat on the edge of the foliage all winter to be picked up and transported elsewhere downstream.

It's merely a hypothesis. I have no evidence yet to back it up, but I think it as reasonable and logical as others.

When I first began researching Cooper I had the idea that the Salmon Creek could have been a vehicle to bring the money to Tena Bar, but I have spoken with locals who have told me that it isn't big or strong enough to carry debris from the Battle Ground area to the Columbia, and it would take some really funky hydraulics to pull it off.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2021, 08:57:42 PM by Chaucer »
 

Online georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5785 on: March 04, 2021, 11:45:49 PM »
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If the money entered the Columbia River near Tomahawk or certainly Government Island, I can tell you that it's a long trip down to Tena Bar--I believe at least 10 miles. I've boated from Tomahawk to Tena a few times and it's a long slow journey.

Also, the Columbia is a river with a deep channel--about 40 feet--with relatively shallow shoulders closer to the beach. Meaning, if the money entered the Columbia near the center of the river it would sink to the bottom of the channel and eventually be covered under feet of sediment--after all, that's why they dredge regularly.

I simply think that such a scenario is impossible. I believe you could throw a 20 lb bag of cash in the water near Tomahawk a million times and zero times have three separate packets end up buried at Tena Bar for 8 years.
Again, I'm not suggesting the money entered the water and floated along the top by itself, or rolled along the bottom underwater. I'm suggesting it traveled downstream with some other mechanism such as a log, tree branch, or Cooper's body. Assuming an average current speed, that kind of flotsam would probably take 10 to 12 hours to travel from the area between I-5 bridge and the I-205 bridge to Tena Bar. Considering the flood conditions at the time, I don't think it's farfetched to have debris that has sat on the edge of the foliage all winter to be picked up and transported elsewhere downstream.

It's merely a hypothesis. I have no evidence yet to back it up, but I think it as reasonable and logical as others.

When I first began researching Cooper I had the idea that the Salmon Creek could have been a vehicle to bring the money to Tena Bar, but I have spoken with locals who have told me that it isn't big or strong enough to carry debris from the Battle Ground area to the Columbia, and it would take some really funky hydraulics to pull it off.

Good work exploring intelligent options.

Concerning Tom's diatom work, the species of diatoms found suggest exposure for one season (spring to summer). Perhaps into fall. But no particular year can be assigned. Tests that might suggest a time frame have never been done, so far. For example, several dates would be nice to know. (a) the date at which the bundles of money ceased to be exposed to the atmosphere, re- C13 exposure. (b) any breaks in the C13 chain! Cessation of exposure followed by a dead period followed by re-exposure! (c) date for the diatoms on the bills. (d) neutron testing see You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login  and (e) other tests.   

For example, in a recent post at DZ, FJ speculated that the Cooper bills arrived and settled on the beach during a June flood when the water level at the Ingram site was six feet over the bills resting on the sand sex feet below - and thence that is how the bills got exposed to diatoms. I had to chuckle reading that because, diatoms live in surface columns only, usually no deeper than 3 ft. Why? Diatoms require a rich supply of oxygen. Diatoms live the shallow surface column only. ..........  Its small details like that that can make or break people's theories!  ;)     
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 12:04:13 AM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5786 on: March 05, 2021, 08:58:17 AM »
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For example, in a recent post at DZ, FJ speculated that the Cooper bills arrived and settled on the beach during a June flood when the water level at the Ingram site was six feet over the bills resting on the sand sex feet below - and thence that is how the bills got exposed to diatoms. I had to chuckle reading that because, diatoms live in surface columns only, usually no deeper than 3 ft. Why? Diatoms require a rich supply of oxygen. Diatoms live the shallow surface column only. ..........  Its small details like that that can make or break people's theories!  ;)   

Now this from GEORGER I find valuable.

I forgot about the detail regarding diatoms living near the surface. Indeed, this is critically important and narrows down the exposure date--if one believes as I do about the retrieval--to probably a one or two-day time period twice (because the water had to rise as well as recede), whether it be the 1972 flood event or 1974 flood event.
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Offline EU

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5787 on: March 05, 2021, 01:06:32 PM »
Regarding the diatoms, I just spoke with Tom and he verified that diatoms can live deep in the water not just near the surface. It is in sand where they can't live deep.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Online georger

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Re: Tina Bar Money Find
« Reply #5788 on: March 05, 2021, 04:29:03 PM »
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Regarding the diatoms, I just spoke with Tom and he verified that diatoms can live deep in the water not just near the surface. It is in sand where they can't live deep.

Yes diatoms can be deep (even 800 meters in ocean floors!) but lets focus only on the fresh water diatoms Tom found. Those are fresh water diatoms. Tom's diatoms are indigenous in the area at TBar. We know the money was exposed to basically a full season of those particular diatoms, for at least one year (season). I still have questions. (1) do those same diatoms exist everywhere along the Columbia? I think the answer is yes. I dont think Tom's 'toms' are specific to TBar only. (2) Do Tom's 'toms' actually represent more than one season? I think they might, or, I think that has to be examined. How many seasonal 'stages' of Tom's species are represented in his sample? I think Tom made a remark about that but I forget what he said, exactly. I'm just curious that we may be seeing more than one year's production of those diatoms?  (3) What year do those 'toms' represent? Im not sure that can even be nailed down without other tests, if it can be determined at all? 

The vital point is: its Tom's diatom species we are concerned with; not ocean diatoms that can exist to 800 meters!  ;)  Tom's diatoms could be living in the sand at Tbar even as the sand is periodically covered over by 12feet of water! Did the money get exposed to diatoms by exposure to 'toms' in sand, or only by water, or both? Its a complex issue -     

*** also we are dealing with at least 5 species of toms. each species has its own time table in a single season. ........  does Tom's sample represent only one year for all five species? Important question.   
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 04:47:13 PM by georger »
 
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