Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 312579 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4350 on: July 14, 2021, 06:08:23 PM »
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In the 'normal' narrative of the flight path, what altitude would the plane likely be at when passing over this area? How far is this area from the airport?

The airliner's altitude was 10,000 feet above sea level as it overflew the Portland/Vancouver area.  The Portland International Airport is only 30 feet above sea level.

And for the zillionth time, the 8:00 PM sequence report for PIA listed two relatively low cloud layers with an overcast at 5000 feet.  This is a visual ground observation and there is no information on any clouds above the 5000 foot overcast.

In view of the above, it is highly unlikely that anyone on the ground saw or heard the hijacked airliner as it passed the Portland/Vancouver area.  The fact that the FBI ignored some of these claimed sightings is a redeeming factor in their investigation in my always humble opinion.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4351 on: July 14, 2021, 06:11:46 PM »
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In the 'normal' narrative of the flight path, what altitude would the plane likely be at when passing over this area? How far is this area from the airport?

Ball-park figures: Heisson is about 75 miles south of Sea-Tac. 305 should have been at 10K altitude. Heisson is about 500 feet above sea level.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4352 on: July 15, 2021, 06:18:54 PM »
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...it is highly unlikely that anyone on the ground saw or heard the hijacked airliner as it passed the Portland/Vancouver area.


I have to completely agree with that. Airliners climb to altitude pretty directly after takeoff. Apparently Cooper's plane paused their climb at 7K so he could mess with the stairs, but then they continued to 10. The idea of them buzzing a city 75 miles away is highly unlikely. As for the sound, as someone mentioned (I think EU?), the military chase jets are pretty loud, someone might have noticed that, but at 10K and low throttle (to try to keep back with the airliner's speed)?

Sometimes at the dropzone when I'm on the ground, if I notice some people who are there to watch friends/family do a tandem jump, I'll chat with them and try to point things out. As the airplane flies jump run at 12.5K overhead, it can be difficult for them to see the plane, and very hard for them to spot the bodies exiting. And that's in broad clear daylight.

So for these people to just happen to spot Cooper's airliner, especially that one lady who supposedly said she was backing her car out the driveway and happened to notice the plane, and the guy standing on the stairs throwing flares off? At night? Under clouds? I think not...


« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 06:26:43 PM by dudeman17 »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4353 on: July 15, 2021, 11:47:59 PM »
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...it is highly unlikely that anyone on the ground saw or heard the hijacked airliner as it passed the Portland/Vancouver area.


I have to completely agree with that. Airliners climb to altitude pretty directly after takeoff. Apparently Cooper's plane paused their climb at 7K so he could mess with the stairs, but then they continued to 10. The idea of them buzzing a city 75 miles away is highly unlikely. As for the sound, as someone mentioned (I think EU?), the military chase jets are pretty loud, someone might have noticed that, but at 10K and low throttle (to try to keep back with the airliner's speed)?

Sometimes at the dropzone when I'm on the ground, if I notice some people who are there to watch friends/family do a tandem jump, I'll chat with them and try to point things out. As the airplane flies jump run at 12.5K overhead, it can be difficult for them to see the plane, and very hard for them to spot the bodies exiting. And that's in broad clear daylight.

So for these people to just happen to spot Cooper's airliner, especially that one lady who supposedly said she was backing her car out the driveway and happened to notice the plane, and the guy standing on the stairs throwing flares off? At night? Under clouds? I think not...

Except that the area in question was a well known noise abatement/noise complaint area ... documented ... and the 727 was flying dirty ? He said she said. Like a fish story. 
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4354 on: July 16, 2021, 09:48:38 AM »
She also said it was so low that they “thought it was going to crash”. You’re not going to say that about an airliner at 10,000 feet.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4355 on: July 16, 2021, 05:04:56 PM »
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...As for the sound, as someone mentioned (I think EU?), the military chase jets are pretty loud, someone might have noticed that, but at 10K and low throttle (to try to keep back with the airliner's speed)?


Ahem... we now know from talking with Cliff Ammerman that he had directed the F-106s 10-20 miles east of 305 and placed them at a 20K altitude. Presumably this took place when he took control of their flights when they entered his sector south of Castle Rock, WA, a few minutes before DBC jumped.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4356 on: July 16, 2021, 05:07:03 PM »
We have a conundrum. Either the eyewitnesses are not telling the truth, or the official narrative that 305 was at 10K when DBC jumped is in error.

 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4357 on: July 16, 2021, 05:31:55 PM »
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Except that the area in question was a well known noise abatement/noise complaint area...


I didn't know that part, so yeah, if they're flying dirty, which would require a bit more throttle, I suppose people might notice the sound. But see it?...


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She also said it was so low that they “thought it was going to crash”. You’re not going to say that about an airliner at 10,000 feet.


Well there's the issue... How credible is that? Every other bit of evidence, including the pilots' statements, indicate that they climbed to altitude. With every other effort by them to accommodate Cooper's demands, for them to still be that low 75 miles after takeoff?...

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We have a conundrum. Either the eyewitnesses are not telling the truth, or the official narrative that 305 was at 10K when DBC jumped is in error.

...Yeah


--------

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...As for the sound, as someone mentioned (I think EU?), the military chase jets are pretty loud, someone might have noticed that, but at 10K and low throttle (to try to keep back with the airliner's speed)?


Ahem... we now know from talking with Cliff Ammerman that he had directed the F-106s 10-20 miles east of 305 and placed them at a 20K altitude. Presumably this took place when he took control of their flights when they entered his sector south of Castle Rock, WA, a few minutes before DBC jumped.


Okay, thanks.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4358 on: July 17, 2021, 09:10:49 AM »
I think anyone attesting to seeing 305 in the Vancouver area is full of shit. There are several reports as well concerning hearing a loud jet. This also seems unlikely to be 305 given its altitude and throttled back speed. The F-106s as the source for the noise--if this is accurate--makes a lot more sense. Not to mention there were two of them constantly passing and circling back around 305, albeit 10 miles or so to the east.

Of note, I have theorized and suspect that the F-106s being several miles east of 305 and flying somewhat more freely are actually the radar plot source for the FBI Flight Path map. In other words, I suspect the FBI Flight Path shows the F-106s and not 305. This, of course, would put 305 on the Western Flight Path as a few of us believe.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4359 on: August 19, 2021, 02:19:02 PM »
A handful of weeks back I started a private Facebook group called 'D.B. Cooper : Mystery Group.' We now have an active group of over 1400 members.

I've started doing Facebook Live events on occasion. These events have included a live broadcast of my Tena Bar dig, a conversation with Brian Ingram, and a conversation about suspects with Nicholas Broughton.

Next, I'd like to do a Facebook Live discussion/debate with someone about the FBI Flight Path versus the Western Flight Path. If anyone here is interested in joining me to discuss this hot topic, drop me a line. I'd like to do this tomorrow if possible.

Cheers!
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
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Online snowmman

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4360 on: August 19, 2021, 08:35:49 PM »
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About four years ago, I ordered digital copies of the FAA's Low Altitude Enroute IFR maps L1 and L2 through the National Archives and a contractor who actually made the disks.  The maps were in effect on November 24, 1971 and contained the navigational information that the NWA airliner would be using on it flight from Seattle to Reno.

When the contractor sent me the disks, they would not initially work on my computer.  After quite a bit of work between the contractor and myself, we finally got the problem resolved.  I made duplicate disks of both maps and sent them to Sluggo and he in turn posted them on his web page.

Recently, I tried to make duplicate copies of my "archive disks" in order to send the maps to the WSHM.  But I have not been able to get any of the disks, which have worked in the past, to open.  No reason for this can be determined.  I am using the very same computer as before and only the normal upgrades to Windows 7 and to Internet Explorer 11 have been made.

I took the disks to one commercial shop and they told me the disks were corrupted.  I have no idea how that could have happened and doubt if it did.

Do any of you computer wizards have a suggestion for correcting this problem?

When you say "disks" what kind of disks?
I'm assuming CD-R's
or are these flash drives of some kind?

CD-R should last 20 to 50 years at least.

What kind of format are these maps? Is there some proprietary format? what kind of suffix do the map files have in windows? When you say "would not work in my computer" what application was being used to "read" them....?
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4361 on: August 19, 2021, 11:20:38 PM »
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About four years ago, I ordered digital copies of the FAA's Low Altitude Enroute IFR maps L1 and L2 through the National Archives and a contractor who actually made the disks.  The maps were in effect on November 24, 1971 and contained the navigational information that the NWA airliner would be using on it flight from Seattle to Reno.

When the contractor sent me the disks, they would not initially work on my computer.  After quite a bit of work between the contractor and myself, we finally got the problem resolved.  I made duplicate disks of both maps and sent them to Sluggo and he in turn posted them on his web page.

Recently, I tried to make duplicate copies of my "archive disks" in order to send the maps to the WSHM.  But I have not been able to get any of the disks, which have worked in the past, to open.  No reason for this can be determined.  I am using the very same computer as before and only the normal upgrades to Windows 7 and to Internet Explorer 11 have been made.

I took the disks to one commercial shop and they told me the disks were corrupted.  I have no idea how that could have happened and doubt if it did.

Do any of you computer wizards have a suggestion for correcting this problem?

When you say "disks" what kind of disks?
I'm assuming CD-R's
or are these flash drives of some kind?

CD-R should last 20 to 50 years at least.

What kind of format are these maps? Is there some proprietary format? what kind of suffix do the map files have in windows? When you say "would not work in my computer" what application was being used to "read" them....?

Snowmman, I donated those disks to Fred Poynter's group at the WSHM and he apparently got them to work.  You might check out the Cooper information at WSHM for their current status, but I think they were online there for some time.  I do not have any of those disks at the present time.

Here is the long story on that problem.  When I started getting involved with the Cooper matter, I spent quite a bit of time (and money) getting copies of the IFR maps and other information that the airliner crew were using on the evening of the hijacking.

First, I had to check with the National Records Administration to determine if they even had a copy of those maps.  They did and referred me to several subcontractors that worked with them and could digitize the maps for me.  Those maps were quite large and the cost for digitizing them was either $20 or $25 per square foot.  I selected a subcontractor and after they were digitized, I attempted to download the data from the subcontractor's site. 

Despite claims of compatibility between their computers and mine, things just didn't work very well in practice.  It took repeated, and I do mean repeated, attempts to get the bugs ironed out so that I could download the data onto disks.  But we were eventually able to get it done.  I duplicated the disks and sent copies to Sluggo.

Since I prefer to work with hard copies of the maps, I took the disks to a photographic facility in Tucson that had equipment capable of printing large items.  They got the job done.  My total investment in those maps was about $400.

       
 

Online snowmman

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4362 on: August 20, 2021, 01:17:32 AM »
wow. Robert99. lots of work. thanks for explaining.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4363 on: August 20, 2021, 11:56:15 AM »
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A handful of weeks back I started a private Facebook group called 'D.B. Cooper : Mystery Group.' We now have an active group of over 1400 members.

I've started doing Facebook Live events on occasion. These events have included a live broadcast of my Tena Bar dig, a conversation with Brian Ingram, and a conversation about suspects with Nicholas Broughton.

Next, I'd like to do a Facebook Live discussion/debate with someone about the FBI Flight Path versus the Western Flight Path. If anyone here is interested in joining me to discuss this hot topic, drop me a line. I'd like to do this tomorrow if possible.

Cheers!

Marty Andrade will be joining me for the Facebook Live discussion about the FBI Flight Path and the Western Flight Path. Chaucer also offered to discuss...I appreciate that very much.

Will be today at 11AM Pacific.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 11:57:32 AM by EU »
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #4364 on: August 20, 2021, 07:38:10 PM »
Andrade is a much more competent guest to speak on the flight path than I. Glad he is participating.