Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 573215 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6705 on: July 19, 2021, 09:46:57 AM »
Well, when you're dealing with 100,000 tie particles - or even 50 primary ones - you can make connections to A LOT of industries/environments. Some of the few I have identified are foundry work, welding/casting/brazing, chemistry, automotive mechanics, dentistry, lighting for large spaces, and water/piping. I'm sure there are more if you look hard enough.

While not to denigrate Tom's work in any way, I would encourage others to research the particles and come up with their own opinions on their origins rather than zero in on cathode ray tubes and oscilloscopes. Tom may very well be right, but we have to keep an open mind.

I think Precision Castparts in Portland, OR would be an excellent place to start looking for suspects.
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6706 on: July 20, 2021, 12:37:57 AM »
Attached is a clip from the Greater Oregon newspapers dated Jan. 1, 1971 about the Senate's cancellation of the SST project and its affect on the local Portalnd metal industry. In it, a spokesperson for Precision Castparts lists the 8 local companies involved in the SST.

They are:
Ford Industries
Precision Castparts
Oremet
Rem Metals
Zirconium Technology
ELS
Carter Machine
Omark

I thought this might be helpful for anyone interested in researching these companies and/or employees.
 
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6707 on: July 20, 2021, 03:13:55 PM »
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Attached is a clip from the Greater Oregon newspapers dated Jan. 1, 1971 about the Senate's cancellation of the SST project and its affect on the local Portalnd metal industry. In it, a spokesperson for Precision Castparts lists the 8 local companies involved in the SST.

They are:
Ford Industries
Precision Castparts
Oremet
Rem Metals
Zirconium Technology
ELS
Carter Machine
Omark

I thought this might be helpful for anyone interested in researching these companies and/or employees.

I was perusing the McCrone site. They have some info on submitting samples.  The PDF document says the minimum charge is $750.  Below are the links, hyperlinked if you sign in here to the forum, and non hyperlinked if you don't, just take off the asterixis at the front and the end.

I'd contribute to a fund if we wanted to submit something for testing.  Even if we were allowed to submit, it may be cost prohibitive.  However, I'm curious as to what we would want to submit as a control item.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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*https://www.mccrone.com/submit-a-sample/*
*https://safe.menlosecurity.com/doc/docview/viewer/docN19E466E4BFFAe92d7aedd354af4cff7ef146c02aa6b2425145a9f5aa39995e4ec06036c3b21b*
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6708 on: July 20, 2021, 03:29:27 PM »
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Attached is a clip from the Greater Oregon newspapers dated Jan. 1, 1971 about the Senate's cancellation of the SST project and its affect on the local Portalnd metal industry. In it, a spokesperson for Precision Castparts lists the 8 local companies involved in the SST.

They are:
Ford Industries
Precision Castparts
Oremet
Rem Metals
Zirconium Technology
ELS
Carter Machine
Omark

I thought this might be helpful for anyone interested in researching these companies and/or employees.

I was perusing the McCrone site. They have some info on submitting samples.  The PDF document says the minimum charge is $750.  Below are the links, hyperlinked if you sign in here to the forum, and non hyperlinked if you don't, just take off the asterixis at the front and the end.

I'd contribute to a fund if we wanted to submit something for testing.  Even if we were allowed to submit, it may be cost prohibitive.  However, I'm curious as to what we would want to submit as a control item.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

*https://www.mccrone.com/submit-a-sample/*
*https://safe.menlosecurity.com/doc/docview/viewer/docN19E466E4BFFAe92d7aedd354af4cff7ef146c02aa6b2425145a9f5aa39995e4ec06036c3b21b*

McCrone does not test to the level of isotopes. ?  Chasing particles may have reached the point of diminishing returns, a long time ago. It has become a fishing expedition that has no mathematical efficacy . . .  the Cooper case is always 200,000 days late and millions of dollars short! Not to mention the role smut peddlers are playing in sidetracking everything! ...  this case now has a real credibility problem that cannot be resolved. Had I to do it all over again I might not have become involved at all and I reflect a major sentiment that Sluggo expressed openly years ago ... you can read it every day at Dropzone and at The Mountain News and elsewhere. You can read it in people's books about the Cooper case.
:conspiracy:
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 03:56:05 PM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6709 on: July 20, 2021, 09:06:53 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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Attached is a clip from the Greater Oregon newspapers dated Jan. 1, 1971 about the Senate's cancellation of the SST project and its affect on the local Portalnd metal industry. In it, a spokesperson for Precision Castparts lists the 8 local companies involved in the SST.

They are:
Ford Industries
Precision Castparts
Oremet
Rem Metals
Zirconium Technology
ELS
Carter Machine
Omark

I thought this might be helpful for anyone interested in researching these companies and/or employees.

I was perusing the McCrone site. They have some info on submitting samples.  The PDF document says the minimum charge is $750.  Below are the links, hyperlinked if you sign in here to the forum, and non hyperlinked if you don't, just take off the asterixis at the front and the end.

I'd contribute to a fund if we wanted to submit something for testing.  Even if we were allowed to submit, it may be cost prohibitive.  However, I'm curious as to what we would want to submit as a control item.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

*https://www.mccrone.com/submit-a-sample/*
*https://safe.menlosecurity.com/doc/docview/viewer/docN19E466E4BFFAe92d7aedd354af4cff7ef146c02aa6b2425145a9f5aa39995e4ec06036c3b21b*

McCrone does not test to the level of isotopes. ?  Chasing particles may have reached the point of diminishing returns, a long time ago. It has become a fishing expedition that has no mathematical efficacy . . .  the Cooper case is always 200,000 days late and millions of dollars short! Not to mention the role smut peddlers are playing in sidetracking everything! ...  this case now has a real credibility problem that cannot be resolved. Had I to do it all over again I might not have become involved at all and I reflect a major sentiment that Sluggo expressed openly years ago ... you can read it every day at Dropzone and at The Mountain News and elsewhere. You can read it in people's books about the Cooper case.
:conspiracy:
I tend to agree.

The last thing we need is MORE particles. What we need to do is take the particles that are the rarest - or have the fewest practical applications - and focus on them. Iron, copper, chlorine - they are ubiquitous. They don't help us at all. But the yittrium, vandium, and strontium sulfide particles are the ones that can narrow the field.
 
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6710 on: July 20, 2021, 10:57:29 PM »
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Attached is a clip from the Greater Oregon newspapers dated Jan. 1, 1971 about the Senate's cancellation of the SST project and its affect on the local Portalnd metal industry. In it, a spokesperson for Precision Castparts lists the 8 local companies involved in the SST.

They are:
Ford Industries
Precision Castparts
Oremet
Rem Metals
Zirconium Technology
ELS
Carter Machine
Omark

I thought this might be helpful for anyone interested in researching these companies and/or employees.

I was perusing the McCrone site. They have some info on submitting samples.  The PDF document says the minimum charge is $750.  Below are the links, hyperlinked if you sign in here to the forum, and non hyperlinked if you don't, just take off the asterixis at the front and the end.

I'd contribute to a fund if we wanted to submit something for testing.  Even if we were allowed to submit, it may be cost prohibitive.  However, I'm curious as to what we would want to submit as a control item.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

*https://www.mccrone.com/submit-a-sample/*
*https://safe.menlosecurity.com/doc/docview/viewer/docN19E466E4BFFAe92d7aedd354af4cff7ef146c02aa6b2425145a9f5aa39995e4ec06036c3b21b*

McCrone does not test to the level of isotopes. ?  Chasing particles may have reached the point of diminishing returns, a long time ago. It has become a fishing expedition that has no mathematical efficacy . . .  the Cooper case is always 200,000 days late and millions of dollars short! Not to mention the role smut peddlers are playing in sidetracking everything! ...  this case now has a real credibility problem that cannot be resolved. Had I to do it all over again I might not have become involved at all and I reflect a major sentiment that Sluggo expressed openly years ago ... you can read it every day at Dropzone and at The Mountain News and elsewhere. You can read it in people's books about the Cooper case.
:conspiracy:

Georger. I’m not looking for more particles.

My hypothesis is that the particles on the tie could possibly come from a number of occupations. I also believe that the particles found in abundance may be better to focus on than the particles found in low quantities. I don’t think I am alone in either of these approaches.

These two situations are however separate approaches. The first approach that I have in mind is to test clothing and see if the rare elements found on Cooper’s tie could be found on other types of clothing from other industries. I don’t envision testing a shop coat for calcium or silicon but I do envision testing it for other elements such as those found in smaller quantities on Cooper’s tie. The second approach which does not involve McCrone Labs is simply an observation suggesting that we focus some effort on ways Cooper could have gotten elements such as calcium on the tie, for instance the way that EU suggested in the form of road salt.

I realize you may have lost your excitement for the case. I have not. I think gathering information can be useful. I’ve had offline discussions about the tie with a few people on this forum and from the DZ.  I will continue to do that. However I felt it was worthwhile to share my ideas here in a public forum.  A negative/naysayer response from you is expected.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2021, 10:59:14 PM by fcastle866 »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6711 on: July 21, 2021, 12:53:59 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
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Attached is a clip from the Greater Oregon newspapers dated Jan. 1, 1971 about the Senate's cancellation of the SST project and its affect on the local Portalnd metal industry. In it, a spokesperson for Precision Castparts lists the 8 local companies involved in the SST.

They are:
Ford Industries
Precision Castparts
Oremet
Rem Metals
Zirconium Technology
ELS
Carter Machine
Omark

I thought this might be helpful for anyone interested in researching these companies and/or employees.

I was perusing the McCrone site. They have some info on submitting samples.  The PDF document says the minimum charge is $750.  Below are the links, hyperlinked if you sign in here to the forum, and non hyperlinked if you don't, just take off the asterixis at the front and the end.

I'd contribute to a fund if we wanted to submit something for testing.  Even if we were allowed to submit, it may be cost prohibitive.  However, I'm curious as to what we would want to submit as a control item.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

*https://www.mccrone.com/submit-a-sample/*
*https://safe.menlosecurity.com/doc/docview/viewer/docN19E466E4BFFAe92d7aedd354af4cff7ef146c02aa6b2425145a9f5aa39995e4ec06036c3b21b*

McCrone does not test to the level of isotopes. ?  Chasing particles may have reached the point of diminishing returns, a long time ago. It has become a fishing expedition that has no mathematical efficacy . . .  the Cooper case is always 200,000 days late and millions of dollars short! Not to mention the role smut peddlers are playing in sidetracking everything! ...  this case now has a real credibility problem that cannot be resolved. Had I to do it all over again I might not have become involved at all and I reflect a major sentiment that Sluggo expressed openly years ago ... you can read it every day at Dropzone and at The Mountain News and elsewhere. You can read it in people's books about the Cooper case.
:conspiracy:
I tend to agree.

The last thing we need is MORE particles. What we need to do is take the particles that are the rarest - or have the fewest practical applications - and focus on them. Iron, copper, chlorine - they are ubiquitous. They don't help us at all. But the yittrium, vandium, and strontium sulfide particles are the ones that can narrow the field.

I can support that.  . . .
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6712 on: July 21, 2021, 01:27:53 AM »
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Attached is a clip from the Greater Oregon newspapers dated Jan. 1, 1971 about the Senate's cancellation of the SST project and its affect on the local Portalnd metal industry. In it, a spokesperson for Precision Castparts lists the 8 local companies involved in the SST.

They are:
Ford Industries
Precision Castparts
Oremet
Rem Metals
Zirconium Technology
ELS
Carter Machine
Omark

I thought this might be helpful for anyone interested in researching these companies and/or employees.

I was perusing the McCrone site. They have some info on submitting samples.  The PDF document says the minimum charge is $750.  Below are the links, hyperlinked if you sign in here to the forum, and non hyperlinked if you don't, just take off the asterixis at the front and the end.

I'd contribute to a fund if we wanted to submit something for testing.  Even if we were allowed to submit, it may be cost prohibitive.  However, I'm curious as to what we would want to submit as a control item.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

*https://www.mccrone.com/submit-a-sample/*
*https://safe.menlosecurity.com/doc/docview/viewer/docN19E466E4BFFAe92d7aedd354af4cff7ef146c02aa6b2425145a9f5aa39995e4ec06036c3b21b*

McCrone does not test to the level of isotopes. ?  Chasing particles may have reached the point of diminishing returns, a long time ago. It has become a fishing expedition that has no mathematical efficacy . . .  the Cooper case is always 200,000 days late and millions of dollars short! Not to mention the role smut peddlers are playing in sidetracking everything! ...  this case now has a real credibility problem that cannot be resolved. Had I to do it all over again I might not have become involved at all and I reflect a major sentiment that Sluggo expressed openly years ago ... you can read it every day at Dropzone and at The Mountain News and elsewhere. You can read it in people's books about the Cooper case.
:conspiracy:

Georger. I’m not looking for more particles.

My hypothesis is that the particles on the tie could possibly come from a number of occupations. I also believe that the particles found in abundance may be better to focus on than the particles found in low quantities. I don’t think I am alone in either of these approaches.

These two situations are however separate approaches. The first approach that I have in mind is to test clothing and see if the rare elements found on Cooper’s tie could be found on other types of clothing from other industries. I don’t envision testing a shop coat for calcium or silicon but I do envision testing it for other elements such as those found in smaller quantities on Cooper’s tie. The second approach which does not involve McCrone Labs is simply an observation suggesting that we focus some effort on ways Cooper could have gotten elements such as calcium on the tie, for instance the way that EU suggested in the form of road salt.

I realize you may have lost your excitement for the case. I have not. I think gathering information can be useful. I’ve had offline discussions about the tie with a few people on this forum and from the DZ.  I will continue to do that. However I felt it was worthwhile to share my ideas here in a public forum.  A negative/naysayer response from you is expected.

You missed my points. Just trying to be objective. One point is you may need to go deeper, to the level of isotopes before any solid connections are established but that is not guaranteed. Working at the level of particles alone may not be sufficient. Working with the rarest particles alone may go nowhere. Were dna swabs made from the tie? Were serological tests run on the tie by anyone? (Time may be running out or have already run out for some basic tests).

None of this has a anything to do with someone being tired of the case.  Its more like impatience with clocks running. 

The FBI for example tested the tie for prints! They might as well have asked the lab for a comparison with buffalo shoe sizes!  Or shark tooth prints! If this tie had been part of a murder case a State Crime lab might have run a standard set of forensic tests ...... just to cover a number of bases to give direction to the investigation. But something as ordinary as that was not done in this case! We have jumped from nothing to 100,000+ particles some of which are rare. We could delve deeper. I thought Tom took some dna swabs of the tie? What finally came of that? The pollen went nowhere. The store that sold the tie a no-go. Has anyone actually decided this tie is of the Earth vs Pluto and provided solid evidence of that ?

Turn the tie over to the Milwaukee Bucks and see what they can shake out of it?   Or give the damned tie to Goodwill and make some poor guy looking for a job happy! Anything before gamma ray bursters turn this nylon into a pile of dust ... give it to the Chinese and see what they can do with it! Give it to the Cubans so they can sell it on eBay to finance Covid vaccine! Cooper mentioned Cuba! The tie returns home - a Penny's store in Cuba? ! 
 :chr2:
   
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 05:26:18 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6713 on: July 21, 2021, 03:13:43 PM »
Getting back to basics:

Which came first - the chicken or the egg? Particles found vs smoking residue on these particles? Did any body think to look? One of the first items discovered by Kaye shows obvious evidence of machining. What tool? Drill press or lathe?  Any smoking residue identifiable on these items?  If Cooper was a smoker why would these particles not have smoking residue on them? This is basic science! If no smoking residue on these items why? How could that possibly happen? Which comes first? These particles or smoking? Or do these items arrive in existence together - smoking while machining? Why would any items found on the tie NOT be covering with smoking residue if this is a smoker's tie? ? Was any gunshot evidence or powder found on the tie? Evidence of cosmetics. Was any mother's milk found on the tie? Semen? Blood cells? Tater chips? . . . any chewing tobaccy stains?  Is anybody driving this boat ... ?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2021, 03:19:39 PM by georger »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6714 on: July 21, 2021, 04:47:57 PM »
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Which came first - the chicken or the egg?

Just taking that by itself - Clearly the chicken.

--------

As for smoking residue, even if Cooper got that tie at a thrift store on his way to the airport, the fact that he smoked on the plane while wearing it, wouldn't that put residue on everything on it?
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6715 on: July 21, 2021, 06:24:31 PM »
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Getting back to basics:

Which came first - the chicken or the egg? Particles found vs smoking residue on these particles? Did any body think to look? One of the first items discovered by Kaye shows obvious evidence of machining. What tool? Drill press or lathe?  Any smoking residue identifiable on these items?  If Cooper was a smoker why would these particles not have smoking residue on them? This is basic science! If no smoking residue on these items why? How could that possibly happen? Which comes first? These particles or smoking? Or do these items arrive in existence together - smoking while machining? Why would any items found on the tie NOT be covering with smoking residue if this is a smoker's tie? ? Was any gunshot evidence or powder found on the tie? Evidence of cosmetics. Was any mother's milk found on the tie? Semen? Blood cells? Tater chips? . . . any chewing tobaccy stains?  Is anybody driving this boat ... ?
My understand is that these particles are microscopic. The only “residue” would be other microscopic particles. The answer to that question is that, yes, there are multiple examples of particles related to safety matches, cigarette lighter flint, and cigarette ash.

Also, there is some evidence of cosmetics including the bismuth and the strontium sulfide which was used as depilatory.

Can’t speak confidently about mother’s milk or semen, but some have suggested evidence of a blood cell.
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6716 on: July 21, 2021, 08:43:13 PM »
Here is a link to a spreadsheet I created in which I identify the most common applications of the most common particles found on the tie. I grouped the applications to try and make connections, and I also attempted to guess at the most likely origins of the particles.

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Also, here are the conclusions that I drew from the data:

As would be obvious, many of the metals are used in metal manufacturing and metallurgy. However, more specifically, several of the metals (stainless steel, zirconium,  titanium, cerium, and tungsten) are all either used to build high temperature electric arc furnaces/crucibles or are products of them. Also, several of them are products of carbon arc welding or vacuum arc welding such as cerium, cerium lanthanum, strontium sulfide, and tungsten This would suggest someone working in proximity to metals heated to extremely high temperature either through a furnace/crucible or welding. It is likely both. The owner of the tie almost certainly worked in an environment in which metal was heated, melted, fabricated, brazed, welded, and/or casted. A foundry or a die casting facility would be likely - particularly one specializing in special metals such as titanium.

However, one must guard against the “playing the result” fallacy. That is, just because someone has egg yolk and egg shells on their shirt doesn’t mean they work at a chicken farm. It could mean they simply like eggs and are messy eaters. Just because metals are found on the tie doesn’t mean they were acquired in a single environment with lots of metals. One must look at the metals with the fewest practical applications. Of particular interest is vanadium which has only three applications:  ferrovandium which is a steel additive, vanadium foil which is used to galvanize titanium and stainless steel, and as a component of high speed steel drills. In fact, there are several particles related to high speed steel drills such as tungsten, tungsten cobalt, and magnesium. The presence of this on the tie would constrict the environments in which it could be acquired.  However, there are several clues that suggest this, and the above conclusion is not new. Several others have arrived at similar conclusions.

Also obvious is that the owner of the tie was a heavy smoker. Several of the particles on the tie are related to either safety match heads or cigarette lighter flints particularly cerium, cerium lanthanum, and phosphorus. Relatedly, ferrocerium - an iron-cerium alloy - is also a component in strikers used by welders. Cadmium is also a common component of cigarette ash.

The above conclusions are not novel and are not particularly revealing. What is interesting is the number of particles related to medical treatments - particularly cancer. Barium sulfate has numerous applications with one being as a contrasting agent for imaging of the esophagus, stomach and intestines. This is most often used to diagnose cancer. More specifically, iron cobalt only has two main applications:  magnetic data storage and machines used in radiation treatment for cancer. To underscore this, bismuth chloride and calcium phosphate is also used as drug delivery for chemotherapy drugs. Furthermore, the powder form of the compound calcium phosphate (while being used in toothpaste which would be a simple explanation) is also used for people with calcium deficiency such as those with celiac disease, Crohn's disease, kidney issues, alcohol abuse, those who take too many antacids, chronic respiratory disease, or parathyroid issues. If Cooper was having stomach issues related to cancer, he may have tried to treat it with antacids. The presence of  salts of aluminum, calcium, magnesium, or sodium would also indicate the heavy use of antacid tablets. Overuse of antacids can lead to calcium deficiency which is  then treated with calcium phosphate. Even more odd is that calcium phosphate is also used as a countermeasure to strontium exposure. Strontium sulfide is created when celestine, a mineral, is heated at over 1000 degrees. This would align with the previously mentioned super-heating of metals. Tangentially, strontium sulfide is a depilatory which is used to chemically remove unwanted body hair. Cadmium, calcium, and iron, among other  many applications, are used to treat or diagnose cancer in one form or another.

One of the most perplexing finds on the tie was that of lead phosphate. It has been learned that microscopic lead phosphate particles become present in lead water pipes that come in contact with phosphorus in the water. Considering that most water pipes in homes and businesses at that time were made of lead and that phosphorus contamination was prevalent, it is certainly possible and perhaps probable that the owner of the tie acquired the lead phosphate particles from using a water faucet. A splash or spray from washing hands or brushing teeth would be enough to put the lead phosphate particles on the tie.

So, what story do the particles tell us about the owner of the tie? First, he likely worked in an environment in which metals were being melted at high temperatures in electric arc furnaces or similar crucibles. This same work environment also likely included metal fabrication, brazing, welding, and casting - particularly commercially pure titanium. He was likely not a welder himself nor did he directly operate these furnaces or torches, but he was in close enough proximity to accumulate these particles. This is underscored by his wearing of a tie in the workplace. Perhaps he worked as a foreman, manager, or in a quality control position. He closely supervised and interacted with the workers, but did not partake in the labor. Secondly, the owner of the tie was a very heavy smoker. He likely lit his cigarettes with both matches and a lighter. Thirdly, he suffered from stomach issues and attempted to alleviate these symptoms through the use (and perhaps overuse) of antacids. Eventually, he would have gone to the doctor who would have done a barium contrast which would have led to a diagnosis of cancer. The owner of the tie would have attempted, at least for a short time, to treat this cancer seemingly without success. It is also possible that his stomach issues were not related to cancer, but did contribute to calcium deficiency which he would in turn try to treat with calcium supplements. He would also have had a modicum of vanity in using a depilatory to rid himself of unsightly hair.

Perhaps, his industrial work environment and exposure to carcinogenic chemicals contributed to his cancer diagnosis. Either way, it is possible that he attempted the hijacking in the late stages of his cancer, as a “Walter White” style attempt to make money by undertaking a risky criminal venture. This would explain his “calm and cool demeanor” - he literally had nothing to lose. One thing that calls this “cancer theory” into question is the fact that Cooper had a full head of his own hair. One would surmise that someone undertaking late state cancer treatments would be bald, and also “look sick”. Based on eyewitness testimony, this does not appear to the case.

Clearly, an examination of the particles can lead one down many paths. The conclusions here are certainly not definitive, and are not intended to be. They are some of the few conclusions that one could draw. It is unlikely that we will ever find one perfect explanation. There are simply too many possibilities and variables involved. However, I would encourage someone to begin with the most rare particles and the ones with the fewest known applications. That would immediately constrict the avenues of inquiry and allow one to build a theory from the “inside out”.
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6717 on: July 21, 2021, 11:32:43 PM »
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Getting back to basics:

Which came first - the chicken or the egg? Particles found vs smoking residue on these particles? Did any body think to look? One of the first items discovered by Kaye shows obvious evidence of machining. What tool? Drill press or lathe?  Any smoking residue identifiable on these items?  If Cooper was a smoker why would these particles not have smoking residue on them? This is basic science! If no smoking residue on these items why? How could that possibly happen? Which comes first? These particles or smoking? Or do these items arrive in existence together - smoking while machining? Why would any items found on the tie NOT be covering with smoking residue if this is a smoker's tie? ? Was any gunshot evidence or powder found on the tie? Evidence of cosmetics. Was any mother's milk found on the tie? Semen? Blood cells? Tater chips? . . . any chewing tobaccy stains?  Is anybody driving this boat ... ?
My understand is that these particles are microscopic. The only “residue” would be other microscopic particles. The answer to that question is that, yes, there are multiple examples of particles related to safety matches, cigarette lighter flint, and cigarette ash.

Also, there is some evidence of cosmetics including the bismuth and the strontium sulfide which was used as depilatory.

Can’t speak confidently about mother’s milk or semen, but some have suggested evidence of a blood cell.

like this!  :congrats:
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6718 on: July 21, 2021, 11:38:04 PM »
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Here is a link to a spreadsheet I created in which I identify the most common applications of the most common particles found on the tie. I grouped the applications to try and make connections, and I also attempted to guess at the most likely origins of the particles.

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Also, here are the conclusions that I drew from the data:

As would be obvious, many of the metals are used in metal manufacturing and metallurgy. However, more specifically, several of the metals (stainless steel, zirconium,  titanium, cerium, and tungsten) are all either used to build high temperature electric arc furnaces/crucibles or are products of them. Also, several of them are products of carbon arc welding or vacuum arc welding such as cerium, cerium lanthanum, strontium sulfide, and tungsten This would suggest someone working in proximity to metals heated to extremely high temperature either through a furnace/crucible or welding. It is likely both. The owner of the tie almost certainly worked in an environment in which metal was heated, melted, fabricated, brazed, welded, and/or casted. A foundry or a die casting facility would be likely - particularly one specializing in special metals such as titanium.

However, one must guard against the “playing the result” fallacy. That is, just because someone has egg yolk and egg shells on their shirt doesn’t mean they work at a chicken farm. It could mean they simply like eggs and are messy eaters. Just because metals are found on the tie doesn’t mean they were acquired in a single environment with lots of metals. One must look at the metals with the fewest practical applications. Of particular interest is vanadium which has only three applications:  ferrovandium which is a steel additive, vanadium foil which is used to galvanize titanium and stainless steel, and as a component of high speed steel drills. In fact, there are several particles related to high speed steel drills such as tungsten, tungsten cobalt, and magnesium. The presence of this on the tie would constrict the environments in which it could be acquired.  However, there are several clues that suggest this, and the above conclusion is not new. Several others have arrived at similar conclusions.

Also obvious is that the owner of the tie was a heavy smoker. Several of the particles on the tie are related to either safety match heads or cigarette lighter flints particularly cerium, cerium lanthanum, and phosphorus. Relatedly, ferrocerium - an iron-cerium alloy - is also a component in strikers used by welders. Cadmium is also a common component of cigarette ash.

The above conclusions are not novel and are not particularly revealing. What is interesting is the number of particles related to medical treatments - particularly cancer. Barium sulfate has numerous applications with one being as a contrasting agent for imaging of the esophagus, stomach and intestines. This is most often used to diagnose cancer. More specifically, iron cobalt only has two main applications:  magnetic data storage and machines used in radiation treatment for cancer. To underscore this, bismuth chloride and calcium phosphate is also used as drug delivery for chemotherapy drugs. Furthermore, the powder form of the compound calcium phosphate (while being used in toothpaste which would be a simple explanation) is also used for people with calcium deficiency such as those with celiac disease, Crohn's disease, kidney issues, alcohol abuse, those who take too many antacids, chronic respiratory disease, or parathyroid issues. If Cooper was having stomach issues related to cancer, he may have tried to treat it with antacids. The presence of  salts of aluminum, calcium, magnesium, or sodium would also indicate the heavy use of antacid tablets. Overuse of antacids can lead to calcium deficiency which is  then treated with calcium phosphate. Even more odd is that calcium phosphate is also used as a countermeasure to strontium exposure. Strontium sulfide is created when celestine, a mineral, is heated at over 1000 degrees. This would align with the previously mentioned super-heating of metals. Tangentially, strontium sulfide is a depilatory which is used to chemically remove unwanted body hair. Cadmium, calcium, and iron, among other  many applications, are used to treat or diagnose cancer in one form or another.

One of the most perplexing finds on the tie was that of lead phosphate. It has been learned that microscopic lead phosphate particles become present in lead water pipes that come in contact with phosphorus in the water. Considering that most water pipes in homes and businesses at that time were made of lead and that phosphorus contamination was prevalent, it is certainly possible and perhaps probable that the owner of the tie acquired the lead phosphate particles from using a water faucet. A splash or spray from washing hands or brushing teeth would be enough to put the lead phosphate particles on the tie.

So, what story do the particles tell us about the owner of the tie? First, he likely worked in an environment in which metals were being melted at high temperatures in electric arc furnaces or similar crucibles. This same work environment also likely included metal fabrication, brazing, welding, and casting - particularly commercially pure titanium. He was likely not a welder himself nor did he directly operate these furnaces or torches, but he was in close enough proximity to accumulate these particles. This is underscored by his wearing of a tie in the workplace. Perhaps he worked as a foreman, manager, or in a quality control position. He closely supervised and interacted with the workers, but did not partake in the labor. Secondly, the owner of the tie was a very heavy smoker. He likely lit his cigarettes with both matches and a lighter. Thirdly, he suffered from stomach issues and attempted to alleviate these symptoms through the use (and perhaps overuse) of antacids. Eventually, he would have gone to the doctor who would have done a barium contrast which would have led to a diagnosis of cancer. The owner of the tie would have attempted, at least for a short time, to treat this cancer seemingly without success. It is also possible that his stomach issues were not related to cancer, but did contribute to calcium deficiency which he would in turn try to treat with calcium supplements. He would also have had a modicum of vanity in using a depilatory to rid himself of unsightly hair.

Perhaps, his industrial work environment and exposure to carcinogenic chemicals contributed to his cancer diagnosis. Either way, it is possible that he attempted the hijacking in the late stages of his cancer, as a “Walter White” style attempt to make money by undertaking a risky criminal venture. This would explain his “calm and cool demeanor” - he literally had nothing to lose. One thing that calls this “cancer theory” into question is the fact that Cooper had a full head of his own hair. One would surmise that someone undertaking late state cancer treatments would be bald, and also “look sick”. Based on eyewitness testimony, this does not appear to the case.

Clearly, an examination of the particles can lead one down many paths. The conclusions here are certainly not definitive, and are not intended to be. They are some of the few conclusions that one could draw. It is unlikely that we will ever find one perfect explanation. There are simply too many possibilities and variables involved. However, I would encourage someone to begin with the most rare particles and the ones with the fewest known applications. That would immediately constrict the avenues of inquiry and allow one to build a theory from the “inside out”.
:bravo: :congrats:    very intriguing, food for thought and discussion! I have no idea what your background for this is - could you share some piece of your background - are you an MD. ?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 05:28:26 AM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6719 on: July 22, 2021, 12:18:13 PM »
Nope, not a doctor, but I play one on TV.

Just kidding.

I'm a college English professor. No background in chemicals or medicine or metallurgy. So, take that for what it's worth.

That said, my wife works in the medical field. Also, all of my research is sourced, but may not be exhaustive. I encourage all of you to let me know of additional applications for these elements and compounds.
 
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