Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 570476 times)

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3028
  • Thanked: 430 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6675 on: July 13, 2021, 11:59:12 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Wow, the tie was radioactive? I have never heard that before...

It was a question - not a statement of FACT!. The question was: was/is the tie radioactive? I think the answer is No.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2021, 12:04:13 AM by georger »
 

Offline nickyb233

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Thanked: 27 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6676 on: July 14, 2021, 04:00:29 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Nicky - Over on dropzone the other day Flyjack posted an old article from Parachutist magazine about the stunt jumps from the Treat Williams movie. That article mentions six people who worked on that. As you can see from my response over there, of those six people, I was acquainted with four of them. Of those four, three of them have passed away. The fourth guy, Ray Cottingham, I believe is still around, but I haven't seen him in a few years. I don't do any social media, so I wouldn't know his facebook or anything. I think he lived in the Las Vegas area, but he was a semi-regular at Elsinore for many years. He would probably remember things about the plane/stair issues, and he might be able to direct you to the other two guys or possibly the pilots. If you can't find him on facebook, perhaps ask Daniella in the office at Elsinore. She probably won't give you his contact, but she might forward yours to him.

I received a response to my message into Ray C today.
Quote
Niholas, Yes I did know and jump with Lyle Cameron but most contacts were with photos and articles for Skydiver magazine. Yes I was both a cameraman and stunt jumper for the DB Cooper film.  Kevin Donnelly was the 2nd unit director and a stunt jumper.  He did the tree landing stunt. Ray

Is there anything specific you’d like me to ask Ray regarding the performance of the 727 aft stairs for the movie stunt?
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Thanked: 71 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6677 on: July 14, 2021, 06:01:12 PM »
I would imagine that Ray is familiar with the Cooper case, not sure how closely he followed it or how familiar he might be with the sled tests. My questions would be about how easy or difficult dealing with the stairs were. Did they have to do anything special with them in doing the stunt to make them easier? In Ray's opinion, how easy or difficult might it have been for Cooper? In the idea of faking the bump, and having his 'real' exit later be less noticeable, could Cooper have exited from halfway/partway down the stairs, to avoid the 'snap-back' effect of exiting from the bottom?
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3028
  • Thanked: 430 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6678 on: July 14, 2021, 11:47:44 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Nicky - Over on dropzone the other day Flyjack posted an old article from Parachutist magazine about the stunt jumps from the Treat Williams movie. That article mentions six people who worked on that. As you can see from my response over there, of those six people, I was acquainted with four of them. Of those four, three of them have passed away. The fourth guy, Ray Cottingham, I believe is still around, but I haven't seen him in a few years. I don't do any social media, so I wouldn't know his facebook or anything. I think he lived in the Las Vegas area, but he was a semi-regular at Elsinore for many years. He would probably remember things about the plane/stair issues, and he might be able to direct you to the other two guys or possibly the pilots. If you can't find him on facebook, perhaps ask Daniella in the office at Elsinore. She probably won't give you his contact, but she might forward yours to him.

I received a response to my message into Ray C today.
Quote
Niholas, Yes I did know and jump with Lyle Cameron but most contacts were with photos and articles for Skydiver magazine. Yes I was both a cameraman and stunt jumper for the DB Cooper film.  Kevin Donnelly was the 2nd unit director and a stunt jumper.  He did the tree landing stunt. Ray

Is there anything specific you’d like me to ask Ray regarding the performance of the 727 aft stairs for the movie stunt?

How fast to they close on their own to within eight inches once weight is off them ?  :)  Did he review the sled test results?  Did he ever talk to Rataczak or Anderson? Who did he talk to in preparing for the film ?    ;)  Anything on oscillations and bump (pressure event).

Thanks!
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 12:15:28 AM by georger »
 

Offline Unsurelock

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
  • Thanked: 52 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6679 on: July 14, 2021, 11:56:07 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Wow, the tie was radioactive? I have never heard that before...

To my recollection, at least one partical was radioactive.

I asked Tom Kaye in 2017:

"Mr. Kaye...have you completely eliminated the possibility that these rare earth elements could represent a trace amount of decades-old nuclear waste? Many of those elements could be expected to be found in it."

He responded back:
"Interesting idea about nuclear waste. When I get the stubs back I will check for a radiation signal above background.
Thanks,
Tom"

Tom said he had a busted Geiger counter sensor, but by that time I had gone over the data and realized that fission could not produce the concentration of elements McCrone's scope had picked up. I had been particularly interested in Strontium-90, which decays into Yttrium-90, but the McCrone data couldn't tell isotopes, just elements.
 
The following users thanked this post: georger

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9172
  • Thanked: 960 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6680 on: July 15, 2021, 12:02:34 AM »
The opening scent from the movie shows the stairs did retract much at all with the speeds they used.

Unsurelock, check some of the elements. I believe several are radio active. I read the list to a friend of mine years ago and he said some of them are radio active and to look into the medical field.
 

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 770
  • Thanked: 136 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6681 on: July 15, 2021, 01:48:45 AM »
I'm about done with my findings regarding the tie particles, and I hope to share them shortly.

Regarding radioactivity and the medical field, I have found that a conspicuous number of the elements and compounds on the tie are related to cancer drugs and cancer treatments such as chemo and radiation therapy. It suggests Cooper might have been treated for cancer in the time prior to the hijacking.

Perhaps he pulled a Walter White?
« Last Edit: July 15, 2021, 01:56:55 AM by Chaucer »
 

Offline Unsurelock

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 350
  • Thanked: 52 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6682 on: July 15, 2021, 10:27:02 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm about done with my findings regarding the tie particles, and I hope to share them shortly.

Regarding radioactivity and the medical field, I have found that a conspicuous number of the elements and compounds on the tie are related to cancer drugs and cancer treatments such as chemo and radiation therapy. It suggests Cooper might have been treated for cancer in the time prior to the hijacking.

Perhaps he pulled a Walter White?

In terms of control, I wouldn't be looking at ties. I would be looking at planes. If you have all of those elements in the CRT tubes of Boeing aircraft, and the tie was found onboard a Boeing aircraft...

Check the cockpit and avionics bay of an old 727. See if you can pick up those particles from casual transfer after replacing a broken monitor. You want to clean the screen, just lean forward and use your tie. I don't think there's any magic to the particles.
 

Offline nickyb233

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Thanked: 27 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6683 on: July 15, 2021, 12:53:51 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I would imagine that Ray is familiar with the Cooper case, not sure how closely he followed it or how familiar he might be with the sled tests. My questions would be about how easy or difficult dealing with the stairs were. Did they have to do anything special with them in doing the stunt to make them easier? In Ray's opinion, how easy or difficult might it have been for Cooper? In the idea of faking the bump, and having his 'real' exit later be less noticeable, could Cooper have exited from halfway/partway down the stairs, to avoid the 'snap-back' effect of exiting from the bottom?

Quote
Nicholas, As I remember the first jump was for the chase aircraft filming.  The skirts on the stairs made exits very difficult so they were removed.  The airspeed was reduced so I do not remember any problems.  If DB Cooper was an experianced jumper as many thought he was it may have been possible.  I am not the best person to comment but air speed and the wind skirt on the stairs are the only issues I recall. Ray
 
The following users thanked this post: dudeman17

Offline dudeman17

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Thanked: 71 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6684 on: July 15, 2021, 05:50:17 PM »
Ha! Typical low-key Ray. "I'm not the best person to comment..." Dude! You were there! You got to DO it!  ...
 
The following users thanked this post: nickyb233

Offline fcastle866

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 244
  • Thanked: 83 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6685 on: July 16, 2021, 09:21:40 AM »
I'm generalizing here.  The air stairs deal seems to fall into two camps here.  One is a group that thinks Cooper knew a lot about the stairs, particularly from secret info (CIA, Vietnam, Boeing etc).  The other group thinks he only knew a little bit.

I'm in the group that thinks he knew some, but not a lot.  One theory is that he could have simply flown on a 727 before and saw the flight attendants operate the stairs before taking off, then made an assumption that the stairs could be used in flight.  He seemed like he knew what he was doing at first, but then not so much.  Kind of like a guy seeing a home improvement video and thinking he can remodel his house.  It's harder than it looks.  He may have even talked to pilots or ground crew, we just don't know.  There are 302s that have suspects at Elsinore asking about jumping, and one on a passenger plane in California (Burbank) claiming to be doing movie research.

I could argue both sides of this.  Cooper did ask for the plane to fly low and slow, so that could indicate that he knew the stairs would be more likely to deploy if the plane was depressurized.  If he was an aircrew member in the military, he may have seen planes fly with ladders down, doors open, with guys hanging out, etc.

The other side of me says that if he had never seen the 727 do this, then he was taking a huge risk that the stairs could cause air flow issues, or even make the plane unflyable.  Or if they took off with the stairs down, do too much damage to the plane.  Very risky on his part.

I hope we find out someday.
 
The following users thanked this post: andrade1812

Offline Chaucer

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 770
  • Thanked: 136 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6686 on: July 16, 2021, 09:30:09 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm generalizing here.  The air stairs deal seems to fall into two camps here.  One is a group that thinks Cooper knew a lot about the stairs, particularly from secret info (CIA, Vietnam, Boeing etc).  The other group thinks he only knew a little bit.

I'm in the group that thinks he knew some, but not a lot.  One theory is that he could have simply flown on a 727 before and saw the flight attendants operate the stairs before taking off, then made an assumption that the stairs could be used in flight.  He seemed like he knew what he was doing at first, but then not so much.  Kind of like a guy seeing a home improvement video and thinking he can remodel his house.  It's harder than it looks.  He may have even talked to pilots or ground crew, we just don't know.  There are 302s that have suspects at Elsinore asking about jumping, and one on a passenger plane in California (Burbank) claiming to be doing movie research.

I could argue both sides of this.  Cooper did ask for the plane to fly low and slow, so that could indicate that he knew the stairs would be more likely to deploy if the plane was depressurized.  If he was an aircrew member in the military, he may have seen planes fly with ladders down, doors open, with guys hanging out, etc.

The other side of me says that if he had never seen the 727 do this, then he was taking a huge risk that the stairs could cause air flow issues, or even make the plane unflyable.  Or if they took off with the stairs down, do too much damage to the plane.  Very risky on his part.

I hope we find out someday.
Agree with this 100%.
 

Online Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1465
  • Thanked: 160 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6687 on: July 16, 2021, 01:46:07 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm generalizing here.  The air stairs deal seems to fall into two camps here.  One is a group that thinks Cooper knew a lot about the stairs, particularly from secret info (CIA, Vietnam, Boeing etc).  The other group thinks he only knew a little bit.

I'm in the group that thinks he knew some, but not a lot.  One theory is that he could have simply flown on a 727 before and saw the flight attendants operate the stairs before taking off, then made an assumption that the stairs could be used in flight.  He seemed like he knew what he was doing at first, but then not so much.  Kind of like a guy seeing a home improvement video and thinking he can remodel his house.  It's harder than it looks.  He may have even talked to pilots or ground crew, we just don't know.  There are 302s that have suspects at Elsinore asking about jumping, and one on a passenger plane in California (Burbank) claiming to be doing movie research.

I could argue both sides of this.  Cooper did ask for the plane to fly low and slow, so that could indicate that he knew the stairs would be more likely to deploy if the plane was depressurized.  If he was an aircrew member in the military, he may have seen planes fly with ladders down, doors open, with guys hanging out, etc.

The other side of me says that if he had never seen the 727 do this, then he was taking a huge risk that the stairs could cause air flow issues, or even make the plane unflyable.  Or if they took off with the stairs down, do too much damage to the plane.  Very risky on his part.

I hope we find out someday.

The airliner was unpressurized during the entire flight from SEATAC to Reno.  The aft stairs don't have anything to do with the cabin pressurization.  The pressure hull ends at the door which was just a few feet behind where Cooper was seated.

After giving in to the argument with Rataczak, Cooper told Tina that he knew that the airliner could take off with the stairs down (and unlocked).  Taking off with the stairs down but unlocked would not result in any significant damage to the stairs just as landing with them down at Reno did not do any significant damage to them.  The aircraft was returned to regular service within a day or two of its return to Seattle on Thanksgiving day.
 

Offline nickyb233

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 229
  • Thanked: 27 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6688 on: July 16, 2021, 04:40:56 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I'm generalizing here.  The air stairs deal seems to fall into two camps here.  One is a group that thinks Cooper knew a lot about the stairs, particularly from secret info (CIA, Vietnam, Boeing etc).  The other group thinks he only knew a little bit.

I'm in the group that thinks he knew some, but not a lot.  One theory is that he could have simply flown on a 727 before and saw the flight attendants operate the stairs before taking off, then made an assumption that the stairs could be used in flight.  He seemed like he knew what he was doing at first, but then not so much.  Kind of like a guy seeing a home improvement video and thinking he can remodel his house.  It's harder than it looks.  He may have even talked to pilots or ground crew, we just don't know.  There are 302s that have suspects at Elsinore asking about jumping, and one on a passenger plane in California (Burbank) claiming to be doing movie research.

I could argue both sides of this.  Cooper did ask for the plane to fly low and slow, so that could indicate that he knew the stairs would be more likely to deploy if the plane was depressurized.  If he was an aircrew member in the military, he may have seen planes fly with ladders down, doors open, with guys hanging out, etc.

The other side of me says that if he had never seen the 727 do this, then he was taking a huge risk that the stairs could cause air flow issues, or even make the plane unflyable.  Or if they took off with the stairs down, do too much damage to the plane.  Very risky on his part.

I hope we find out someday.

If he flew a 727 before and watched the attendants operate the stairs then why did he ask that Tina show him how to lower the aft stairs? Cooper seemed to calculated up until that point to make an assumption with the stairs... if guesses wrong well that’s a wrap. Hell Cooper even argued that the plane could take off with the stairs down and was right. I don’t even think familiarity with the SAT combi 727 covert missions for the cia would of told you that. Cooper knew the fueling times for the 727 and according to Loren Peterson who was a freight mechanic working for nwa on duty the night of the cooper hijacking cooper actually gave instructions to balance the fuel tanks a certain way because they were flying in this low and slow configuration as you mentioned. You say cooper knew what he was doing at first but then not so much. What about his actions later in the skyjacking suggest to you this was the case. I have a hard time buying cooper was smart at first but then all of a sudden became dumb.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4063
  • Thanked: 372 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6689 on: July 16, 2021, 05:00:02 PM »
Another part of this conversation is that the cabin HAD to be un-pressurized; otherwise the door to the aft stairs could not be opened. Robb Heady said that his leaving the door opened telegraphed to the crew that we was gonna jump even though he had not asked for a parachute in his ransom demands, nor did he say anything about cabin pressure, wheels, flaps, etc. As a result, Robb jumped at 300+ mph and at 12,000 feet on the climb.

This is another tidbit that suggests DBC was a smart cookie on the subject of skydiving from a 727.