Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 570352 times)

Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6735 on: July 25, 2021, 04:02:59 AM »
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However many parachutes were sent to wherever the hell they went, here are a few basic facts about them.

Especially a pilot bailout rig with a standard round, in totality as a mechanical device, they are extremely simple. A ripcord is about as simple a device as you can imagine. A straight cable with a handle on one end, pin(s) on the other. It routes through a housing. You pull the handle, it pulls the pin. The rest of the deployment happens on it's own. If you're in freefall, the power source (relative wind) is present. There is literally nothing you can do to it to make it 'too hard to use'. There is no such possibility as a required dual directional pull. You pull it in the direction it comes out of the housing. If the rig used was Hayden's would Cossey rig it to be difficult (if it were possible) for a pilot, who has no experience with parachutes, and if he needed it it would be in a high stress quick time event? If it were Cossey's, about the only thing he could do to it would be mount the ripcord handle in an unusual spot. An experienced jumper would easily take note of that. A non experienced person wouldn't know the difference. In either case, Cooper would just note where it is, and pull it when needed. Simple.

Cossey seemed to like to BS reporters. Any statement he might have made as to the 'difficulty' of such a rig would be intentional balderdash on his part.
.

Thanks for the insights DM... seems to me that the fbi wanted and still wants to convince us that cooper was a whuffo and didn’t make it, this is what they tried to use to sell us this bill of goods. Not buying it for for a sec...like you said even if the rc was in a different spot it’s not like he made it invisible. If you can see it you can pull it, I don’t see how this adds up to cooper was a no pull. If cooper was a whuffo he wouldn’t have had any previous notions of where the rc should be, so how would that have thrown him off?
« Last Edit: July 25, 2021, 04:05:18 AM by nickyb233 »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6736 on: July 25, 2021, 04:07:09 AM »
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Larry Carr and the Mystery Group

Larry Carr seems to be doubling-down on his belief that DB Cooper jumped with a too-hard-to-use-safely military chute, as evidence by recent postings on Eric's DB Cooper Mystery Group Facebook page.

Eric's "Group" is both a blessing and a curse, as it has many fresh voices and interesting discussion. However, it is very hard to follow and read as many of the messages are hidden or truncated to Fb formatting. UG! I find it a royal pain in the ass, and lots of folks email me to ask that I join the conversation, but whew - it's work.

As it turns out, some of the editors and producers I have been interviewed by recently are also interviewing Larry, and word is getting back to me that he is sticking by his claim that Coop died in the jump because he used Cossey's personal chute - the blasted NB-6 that was overstuffed with a 28-foot canopy and had serious modifications to the rip cord that made it next-to-impossible to use, except for Coss.

Now Eric is touting the same point of view, saying he has a "legit source" to back up his claims, which I assume is Larry. But I call Bullshit.

To say Cooper used any back chute from Cossey, one has to prove a few things:

1. Why did Cossey send his two back chutes to the wrong airport?
2. How did Cossey's back chutes get to Sea-Tac? Who drove them there?
3. Cossey says that he was informed of NWO's need for parachutes by Al Lee, but can anyone prove or corroborate that Lee, the Chief of Ground Ops, was the guy calling Cossey or looking for chutes? I haven't seen a stitch of documentation on that. On the flip side, there is significant documentation and corroboration on the Norman Hayden - George Harrison negotiation and delivery of two back chutes.

So, if Cooper used one of Cossey's chutes, then four back chutes must have been delivered - Hayden's two Pioneer/Steinthaul rigs, and Cossey's NB-6/NB-8 (take your pick because he has said both at different times to different people) and a Pioneer-Something.

So, where are the other three back chutes? One got returned to Norman, allegedly, and is now at the WSHM. Cossey told me that he never got either of his back chutes back.

Bruce, don't start this nonsense about 4, 6, or 8 backpacks again!

There were only two backpacks involved and those were the two that were obtained from Hayden.  The NWA people at SEATAC knew that an operator at Boeing Field had access to emergency backpacks and they contacted it for assistance.  The Boeing Field operator contacted Hayden for the use of his backpacks, which he apparently kept in his shop or at home but he kept his aircraft at Boeing Field.  Hayden sent his two backpacks to Boeing Field by taxi.  The Boeing Field operator then delivered Hayden's chutes to NWA at SEATAC either by taxi or some other means.  Those are the only two backpacks involved in the hijacking.

The reserve chutes were delivered to SEATAC by the Washington State Police from the Skydiving location.  The claimed story about the backpacks coming from McChord is probably speculation.  There is nothing else to support it.  And I can guarantee you that if military backpacks from McChord had been delivered to Cooper they would have had pingers in them that would be activated if the ripcord was ever pulled.

To repeat, there is no question as to where the two backpacks and the two reserve chutes came from or who they belonged to.  Anyone claiming otherwise is just putting out beer talk.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6737 on: July 25, 2021, 07:08:21 AM »
This parachute thing is sounding too conspiratorial. Let me clarify exactly what was told to me by a reputable confidential source who I will not reveal because I was asked not to. Nonetheless, the conversation was had via phone so I got the opportunity to ask questions and clarify certain things.

The rigs were owned by Norman Hayden, however they were previously owned by Earl Cossey. In fact, the rig DBC jumped with was regularly used by Cossey himself as an instructor.

Cossey stated that he modified the rig by moving the ripcord back somewhat and making it harder to pull. He stated that this modification was made because as he trained people to skydive he would push people out of the plane. And, other instructors had experienced situations where the skydiver trainee would inadvertently pull the instructor’s ripcord. The modifications reduced this risk.

Of note, the instructional card presented to DBC by Tina explained these modifications. It was this instructional card that DBC turned down perhaps thinking it provided instructions on how to use the parachute as opposed to the specific modifications.

Finally, I was told that the mains were sourced from Hayden and that he sent them via taxi to the airport—not certain which one. There was no mention of Cossey sending anything anywhere.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline andrade1812

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6738 on: July 25, 2021, 11:12:16 AM »
Who called Cossey?
When did the conversation take place?
Who wrote the note to Cooper?
How did Cossey know Cooper was getting the modified parachute?
Why did they call Cossey?
Where is the note now?
What FBI documents describe these events?



 
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6739 on: July 25, 2021, 03:06:36 PM »
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Who called Cossey?
When did the conversation take place?
Who wrote the note to Cooper?
How did Cossey know Cooper was getting the modified parachute?
Why did they call Cossey?
Where is the note now?
What FBI documents describe these events?

Apparently, Tina was never asked what chute Cooper had on - or asked to describe it.  :-\  Which side was the pull handle thingy on ? Cooper's right or left?

Would that info resolve this dilemma ?  She was never asked to describe the process Cooper went through in selecting a chute, after she brought in chutes in some order and set them in front of Cooper?

For the FBI's part: they didnt think to mark the chutes and which chute had come from whom? There was no inventory list of chutes brought in for Cooper? And which chutes were delivered to Cooper, and in what order taken by Tina on to the plane ?  Since the chutes came from private entities ... and Cooper new Tacoma from the air  ... any chance Cooper wound up getting chutes he had seen (or even used!) before ?

 :-\ :-\ :-\

   * In fact, as long as we are talking inventories and notetaking of things and events, did anyone see Cooper taking or making notes about anything, during the whole hijacking process?  Did Cooper say to Tina or anyone else: 'I will make a mental note of this or that' ? This hijacking was a collaborative process! Any chance Cooper knew Cossey or Hayden, or knew who they were ?  ::)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2021, 03:31:39 PM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6740 on: July 25, 2021, 04:51:01 PM »
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This parachute thing is sounding too conspiratorial. Let me clarify exactly what was told to me by a reputable confidential source who I will not reveal because I was asked not to. Nonetheless, the conversation was had via phone so I got the opportunity to ask questions and clarify certain things.

The rigs were owned by Norman Hayden, however they were previously owned by Earl Cossey. In fact, the rig DBC jumped with was regularly used by Cossey himself as an instructor.

Cossey stated that he modified the rig by moving the ripcord back somewhat and making it harder to pull. He stated that this modification was made because as he trained people to skydive he would push people out of the plane. And, other instructors had experienced situations where the skydiver trainee would inadvertently pull the instructor’s ripcord. The modifications reduced this risk.

Of note, the instructional card presented to DBC by Tina explained these modifications. It was this instructional card that DBC turned down perhaps thinking it provided instructions on how to use the parachute as opposed to the specific modifications.

Finally, I was told that the mains were sourced from Hayden and that he sent them via taxi to the airport—not certain which one. There was no mention of Cossey sending anything anywhere.

I believe it is commonly agreed that the two Hayden backpacks were assembled and packed by Cossey from surplus military parachute parts.  Hayden reportedly told Bruce Smith that the two backpacks were more or less identical.  I have been told by RH2 that the backpack Cooper presumably jumped with was an NB-6 but the one at the WSHM does not have an NB-6 harness, container, or pilot chute as can be determined by just looking at the pictures of it.  It could have an NB-6 canopy, but I doubt it is just based on the size of the container.

If Cossey had been jumping with the backpack that Cooper took, then there would have to be D rings to attach a mandatory reserve.  Just making the ripcord harder to pull doesn't make any sense to me.  And if a "harder to pull" modification was made, it required some documentation by whoever made the modification and whoever approved it.  This paperwork would not be immediately available to the NWA/FBI since Cossey was not involved in getting the backpacks to Cooper.  I am not aware of the instructions that Cooper declined being available anywhere.

It should also be remembered that Cossey's instructional jumps were probably not tandem jumps but two freefalling people with completely independent rigs.  Perhaps Dudeman or 377 can comment on what instructional jumps were like prior to 1971.

Hayden's backpacks were sent to the people who requested them at Boeing Field. 
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6741 on: July 25, 2021, 05:59:46 PM »
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This parachute thing is sounding too conspiratorial. Let me clarify exactly what was told to me by a reputable confidential source who I will not reveal because I was asked not to. Nonetheless, the conversation was had via phone so I got the opportunity to ask questions and clarify certain things.

The rigs were owned by Norman Hayden, however they were previously owned by Earl Cossey. In fact, the rig DBC jumped with was regularly used by Cossey himself as an instructor.

Cossey stated that he modified the rig by moving the ripcord back somewhat and making it harder to pull. He stated that this modification was made because as he trained people to skydive he would push people out of the plane. And, other instructors had experienced situations where the skydiver trainee would inadvertently pull the instructor’s ripcord. The modifications reduced this risk.

Of note, the instructional card presented to DBC by Tina explained these modifications. It was this instructional card that DBC turned down perhaps thinking it provided instructions on how to use the parachute as opposed to the specific modifications.

Finally, I was told that the mains were sourced from Hayden and that he sent them via taxi to the airport—not certain which one. There was no mention of Cossey sending anything anywhere.

... all unsourced speculation documentation, authority not identified (refuses) . . . blah blah blah.

this might as well be a post by Marla or Blevins or Johnny Green on the Mountain News Smith site! 

When is somebody/anybody going to go ON RECORD in this parachutes mystery? 
« Last Edit: July 25, 2021, 06:02:09 PM by georger »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6742 on: July 25, 2021, 09:58:47 PM »
More parachute stuff, if anyone cares...

First, some definitions -

Mains vs reserves - This is not simply 'front-mount' vs 'backpack'. Those bailout backpack rigs do not have the D-rings to mount reserves because they ARE reserves. The difference is kind of two-fold. One is intent. BASE jumping notwithstanding, in an aircraft related parachute situation the idea is to have a parachute that you do not intend to use. Sport or military jumpers making intentional jumps are intending to use their main. They carry a reserve that they don't intend to use in case the main malfunctions. An aerobatic pilot (such as Hayden) or military aircrew do not intend to jump. In effect, their aircraft is their main. Because their type of flying increases the possibility that they may have to bail, they take the bailout rig as their reserve. The other is classification and requirements. Sport mains, their design may include factors to increase flight performance that might also increase the potential for malfunction. They are generally packed by the person jumping them, whether or not that person is a rigger. They do not have riggers' seals or packing cards. Reserves are designed primarily for structural integrity and opening reliability and have to pass FAA TSO tests for such. They are required to be packed by riggers, and have seals and packing cards. Again, those backpack bailout rigs are reserves.

Gutter gear vs piggyback rigs - 'Gutter gear' is the old type, with the backpack main and front-mount reserve. Piggyback rigs are the more modern type with both the main and reserve on the back. While the first piggyback rigs came out in '64, it was a long transition before they were the prevalent experienced sport rig which was about the mid-seventies. In Cooper's day in '71, there was probably a fair mix of them among experienced sport jumpers. Students still primarily used gutter gear until about the mid-eighties.

Instructional methods - In Cooper's day there was no AFF (modern freefall training method) or tandems. Although there were precursors and tests, those methods didn't become prevalent until the mid-eighties. Before that all student training was static-line programs. You generally did 5 static lines, then a clear-and-pull, then increasing freefall delays starting with 5 second delays. For that method, the instructor does not jump, but stays in the plane and watches from there. Generally, an instructor should not need to push the students out. The students are there because they want to be, and usually they go. But sure, occasionally a first timer might hesitate in the door and require 'assistance'.

-------

At first, the idea of Cossey using a bailout rig to instruct seemed odd. Usually an instructor would wear his sport rig, put out his students, then jump himself. But if Cossey's sport rig was gutter gear, that might be cumbersome. He might well have chosen to wear his bailout rig because it is lighter and doesn't have the front reserve. In that case he would put his students out then ride the plane down. As for moving the ripcord handle - Sure, if he has to 'assist' a first timer with their exit, they may panic and try to grab something, which might be the instructor, and they might grab the handle. I've seen that happen. So he might move it to be out of the way. But there is only so far he could go with it. The handle is located on the main lift web, which is the part of the harness that goes over the shoulder, then down your ribs to the hip juncture. Usually it is at chest level, and 'inboard', which is in between the lift webs, on your chest. The only two places he could move it to would either be lower, more down by the hip, or he could mount it 'outboard', to the outside of the lift web, which would put it kind of near your armpit. According to something Flyjack posted today, it sounds like the latter. Also, the ripcord housing would usually route over the shoulder, but it also sounds like he re-routed it under the rig, where it would come up from the hip area. Those modifications might require FAA and/or manufacturer approval, as R99 said. If he later sold such a rig to Hayden, it would have been easy for him to re-locate the handle back to it's normal position. In any case, it would be readily apparent to whoever was using it where the handle is. You'd put the rig on, and touch the handle a few times to get familiar with it. In the immortal words of Larry Yohn, one of my early instructors, "It's not that fucking hard."

If the handle was indeed outboard, Cooper may have chosen that rig precisely because of that. If he had a bunch of stuff (money) tied to his front and chest, it may have covered/interfered with an inboard mounted handle.

------

I don't do any social media, I'm not on facebook, so I can't use Eric's page. If anyone wants to post any of this there for Carr's perusal, be my guest.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6743 on: July 26, 2021, 03:19:20 AM »
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There were only two backpacks involved and those were the two that were obtained from Hayden.  The NWA people at SEATAC knew that an operator at Boeing Field had access to emergency backpacks and they contacted it for assistance.  The Boeing Field operator contacted Hayden for the use of his backpacks, which he apparently kept in his shop or at home but he kept his aircraft at Boeing Field.  Hayden sent his two backpacks to Boeing Field by taxi.  The Boeing Field operator then delivered Hayden's chutes to NWA at SEATAC either by taxi or some other means.  Those are the only two backpacks involved in the hijacking.

...

To repeat, there is no question as to where the two backpacks and the two reserve chutes came from or who they belonged to.  Anyone claiming otherwise is just putting out beer talk.


Thanks for explaining everything to me, Robert; you're close on the facts, but not fully. The call from NWA, formerly known as NWO in 1971, came from George Harrison - Chief of Flight Ops for NWO - who called Barry Halstad, a salesman at Pacific Aviation. Barry in turn called Norman Hayden, who was a customer of Barry's. The three men worked out the deal for the back chutes and transport via taxi from Norman's shop in Renton to the NWO fright desk at Sea-Tac.

I find it amazing how "Boeing Field" continues to be part of the Cooper narrative. As far as I know, Norman kept his plane at Renton AirPark. If you know otherwise, Robert, please tell me your sources.

Robert, I've asked you  a number of times and have never heard anything back definitively: Have you read my book? It's uncanny how many times I have had to re-write passages from it for you here.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 03:23:50 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6744 on: July 26, 2021, 03:27:42 AM »
Cossey and the parachutes

The role Earl Cossey played in Norjak is simple, but not straight-forward. Here is a guiding principal to ascertain the truth:

1. What can be corroborated about the parachutes that is independent of anything Earl Cossey ever told anybody?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 03:54:04 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6745 on: July 26, 2021, 03:49:08 AM »
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This parachute thing is sounding too conspiratorial. Let me clarify exactly what was told to me by a reputable confidential source who I will not reveal because I was asked not to. Nonetheless, the conversation was had via phone so I got the opportunity to ask questions and clarify certain things.

The rigs were owned by Norman Hayden, however they were previously owned by Earl Cossey. In fact, the rig DBC jumped with was regularly used by Cossey himself as an instructor.

Cossey stated that he modified the rig by moving the ripcord back somewhat and making it harder to pull. He stated that this modification was made because as he trained people to skydive he would push people out of the plane. And, other instructors had experienced situations where the skydiver trainee would inadvertently pull the instructor’s ripcord. The modifications reduced this risk.

Of note, the instructional card presented to DBC by Tina explained these modifications. It was this instructional card that DBC turned down perhaps thinking it provided instructions on how to use the parachute as opposed to the specific modifications.

Finally, I was told that the mains were sourced from Hayden and that he sent them via taxi to the airport—not certain which one. There was no mention of Cossey sending anything anywhere.

1. How does your source know that Hayden's parachutes were formerly owned by Earl Cossey?

2. Further, how does your source know that DB Cooper jumped with a military rig utilizing a rip cord that was "hard-to-pull?"

3. Has your source talked to Norman Hayden?

4. Did your source talk to Earl Cossey?

5. How does your source know the parachute in question was modified?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 03:53:06 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6746 on: July 26, 2021, 04:34:03 AM »
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There were only two backpacks involved and those were the two that were obtained from Hayden.  The NWA people at SEATAC knew that an operator at Boeing Field had access to emergency backpacks and they contacted it for assistance.  The Boeing Field operator contacted Hayden for the use of his backpacks, which he apparently kept in his shop or at home but he kept his aircraft at Boeing Field.  Hayden sent his two backpacks to Boeing Field by taxi.  The Boeing Field operator then delivered Hayden's chutes to NWA at SEATAC either by taxi or some other means.  Those are the only two backpacks involved in the hijacking.

...

To repeat, there is no question as to where the two backpacks and the two reserve chutes came from or who they belonged to.  Anyone claiming otherwise is just putting out beer talk.


Thanks for explaining everything to me, Robert; you're close on the facts, but not fully. The call from NWA, formerly known as NWO in 1971, came from George Harrison - Chief of Flight Ops for NWO - who called Barry Halstad, a salesman at Pacific Aviation. Barry in turn called Norman Hayden, who was a customer of Barry's. The three men worked out the deal for the back chutes and transport via taxi from Norman's shop in Renton to the NWO fright desk at Sea-Tac.

I find it amazing how "Boeing Field" continues to be part of the Cooper narrative. As far as I know, Norman kept his plane at Renton AirPark. If you know otherwise, Robert, please tell me your sources.

Robert, I've asked you  a number of times and have never heard anything back definitively: Have you read my book? It's uncanny how many times I have had to re-write passages from it for you here.

Bruce, I have even bought a copy of the second edition of your book.  And I am surprised that I have to read things back to you that you have written in that book.

On page 97, second edition, of your book you write the following (citing Larry Carr, DZ,12.17.07):

"The chutes [ed: this refers to the backpacks] were secured through NWA's Seattle flight operations.  The flight ops manager [ed: this would probably be Al Lee] called an individual from Pacific Aviation who in turn called an individual he knew [ed: this would be Norman Hayden] who had two back packs...

...This person put the two back packs in a cab and the cab driver delivered them to Boeing Field [ed: this must have been where Pacific Aviation was located] and then onto SEATAC by private car."

The above is consistent with what you have written elsewhere including in your interview with Norman Hayden.  However, let me point out that the above is NOT the source of my information since it was written at least two years before I had even heard of DZ.  I have read your interview with Hayden plus other materials on what happened or was claimed to have happened in securing the parachutes.  And I have used my own knowledge of flying machines, parachutes, and such to figure out what happened on the afternoon of November 24, 1971, in the Seattle area.  I happened to be a passenger on a couple of airliners east of the Mississippi that evening and, further, that was also my birthday.

For the record, I doubt very much if Cossey had anything to do with obtaining the parachutes.  There is an FBI 302 that states they were not able to contact Cossey until just after midnight on the day after Thanksgiving when he returned a call from them.

If you have a source for where Hayden kept his aircraft, then please cite it.

Finally, you are to be congratulated for including an index in your book, something that is sadly missing from most Cooper books.  And I would suggest that you pay particular attention to your mention of RH2 on pages 95 and 96.   
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6747 on: July 26, 2021, 04:43:52 AM »
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Cossey and the parachutes

The role Earl Cossey played in Norjak is simple, but not straight-forward. Here is a guiding principal to ascertain the truth:

1. What can be corroborated about the parachutes that is independent of anything Earl Cossey ever told anybody?

Bruce, the real question you should have asked is this: "Can anything Earl Cossey ever said be corroborated from independent sources?"
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6748 on: July 26, 2021, 05:26:18 AM »
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flying machines
 

Magnificent, man!
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6749 on: July 26, 2021, 08:37:03 PM »
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flying machines
 

Magnificent, man!

Note the plural of machines.  That includes engineering experience of one kind or another with helicopters, compound helicopters, other rotary-wing aircraft, non-rotary wing VTOL aircraft, STOL aircraft, inflatable powered aircraft (that is correct!), ground effects machines, drone aircraft, lifting body aircraft, high-speed fighter aircraft (I'll bet that Andrade Senior flew this one), and probably others that I can't remember at this point.  Plus a number of other projects to develop technology applicable to the above.

Dudeman and 377, if you are a historian of parachuting, I have a question for you? 
 
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