Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (12.2%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6.1%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (4.1%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
10 (20.4%)
100 Cooper lived
18 (36.7%)

Total Members Voted: 44

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 499959 times)

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6195 on: March 02, 2021, 04:11:17 PM »
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Do you believe the recent story by the family about how they got off the island?  sounds plausible..

I doubt anything would of happened to them if they were caught in the last 20 years. the FBI is one thing and the courts are another. I think they would walk out of the courtroom free.

I would hope so but I do think its pretty late in the game for them to be still alive?  They did not shoot the letter down so they are at least considering it could have been from Clarence Anglin.  If he was terminal, it may be too late?  The FBI only needs to say, we grant immunity if you are by some chance alive.  And bring DB Cooper with you while your at it.  I really cant see 3 men in as good a shape as they were all drowning.  That swim has been made many times.  Its do able and if your freedom depends on it, hell I might just be able to get to the other shore.  I believe they made it.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6196 on: March 02, 2021, 08:18:41 PM »
replying over on the off topic thread...
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6197 on: March 03, 2021, 01:32:48 AM »
I had a good phone call with Brian Ingram earlier this evening during which he brought up DBC's tie. In particular, Brian mentioned to me that he visited the FBI Field Office in Seattle back in 2009 with Tom, , Geoff, Larry and others. Brian asked me if I realized that the tie had been handled very poorly as evidence. Specifically, he said that all of them passed the tie around looking at it and holding it while not wearing gloves.

This got me thinking about a conversation I had with Geoff Gray a few months back in which he confirmed that on the same trip they actually disassembled the tie knot to look for evidence before reassembling the knot.

Earlier still, I recalled hearing from a TV producer who worked on the 2016 Case Closed documentary who stated that the tie was passed around and even worn by agents occasionally for the fun of it--perhaps even at a Halloween party.

All of this got me thinking that the sad truth is that anything pulled off the tie is suspect. Even the titanium. Even the match head residue.

How can we be certain that anything Tom has pulled from the tie--titanium, stainless steel, aluminum, rare earth elements, etc.--came from DBC? How do we know it didn't come from the conference table in the FBI Field Office that the evidence was laid upon? How do we know some guy with a titanium wedding band didn't handle the tie at some point? Or a smoker?

The truth of the matter is, we don't. The tie is contaminated beyond repair. Frankly from an evidentiary stand point it is nearly worthless and must be used very cautiously.

I think we can keep the possible evidence in the back of our minds. However, it may well be foolish and flawed to spend much time looking for DBC connections to rare earth elements, titanium, match head residue, and the such that don't exist. After all, this "evidence" could have come from Special Agent X during the 2005 FBI Halloween party.
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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6198 on: March 03, 2021, 03:31:56 AM »
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I had a good phone call with Brian Ingram earlier this evening during which he brought up DBC's tie. In particular, Brian mentioned to me that he visited the FBI Field Office in Seattle back in 2009 with Tom, , Geoff, Larry and others. Brian asked me if I realized that the tie had been handled very poorly as evidence. Specifically, he said that all of them passed the tie around looking at it and holding it while not wearing gloves.

This got me thinking about a conversation I had with Geoff Gray a few months back in which he confirmed that on the same trip they actually disassembled the tie knot to look for evidence before reassembling the knot.

Earlier still, I recalled hearing from a TV producer who worked on the 2016 Case Closed documentary who stated that the tie was passed around and even worn by agents occasionally for the fun of it--perhaps even at a Halloween party.

All of this got me thinking that the sad truth is that anything pulled off the tie is suspect. Even the titanium. Even the match head residue.

How can we be certain that anything Tom has pulled from the tie--titanium, stainless steel, aluminum, rare earth elements, etc.--came from DBC? How do we know it didn't come from the conference table in the FBI Field Office that the evidence was laid upon? How do we know some guy with a titanium wedding band didn't handle the tie at some point? Or a smoker?

The truth of the matter is, we don't. The tie is contaminated beyond repair. Frankly from an evidentiary stand point it is nearly worthless and must be used very cautiously.

I think we can keep the possible evidence in the back of our minds. However, it may well be foolish and flawed to spend much time looking for DBC connections to rare earth elements, titanium, match head residue, and the such that don't exist. After all, this "evidence" could have come from Special Agent X during the 2005 FBI Halloween party.

We?

Supposition and innuendo - your specialty.

I think we've seen this movie before. Doesn't it end with Brian Ingram getting something ... Geoffrey Gray getting something . . . the TV Producer getting . . . and Eric Ulis getting . . .

This was discussed on DZ years ago.  This is old news.  :D
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 04:16:43 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6199 on: March 03, 2021, 05:16:51 AM »
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I had a good phone call with Brian Ingram earlier this evening during which he brought up DBC's tie. In particular, Brian mentioned to me that he visited the FBI Field Office in Seattle back in 2009 with Tom, , Geoff, Larry and others. Brian asked me if I realized that the tie had been handled very poorly as evidence. Specifically, he said that all of them passed the tie around looking at it and holding it while not wearing gloves.

This got me thinking about a conversation I had with Geoff Gray a few months back in which he confirmed that on the same trip they actually disassembled the tie knot to look for evidence before reassembling the knot.

Earlier still, I recalled hearing from a TV producer who worked on the 2016 Case Closed documentary who stated that the tie was passed around and even worn by agents occasionally for the fun of it--perhaps even at a Halloween party.

All of this got me thinking that the sad truth is that anything pulled off the tie is suspect. Even the titanium. Even the match head residue.

How can we be certain that anything Tom has pulled from the tie--titanium, stainless steel, aluminum, rare earth elements, etc.--came from DBC? How do we know it didn't come from the conference table in the FBI Field Office that the evidence was laid upon? How do we know some guy with a titanium wedding band didn't handle the tie at some point? Or a smoker?

The truth of the matter is, we don't. The tie is contaminated beyond repair. Frankly from an evidentiary stand point it is nearly worthless and must be used very cautiously.

I think we can keep the possible evidence in the back of our minds. However, it may well be foolish and flawed to spend much time looking for DBC connections to rare earth elements, titanium, match head residue, and the such that don't exist. After all, this "evidence" could have come from Special Agent X during the 2005 FBI Halloween party.

Troubling information, Eric, and sadly your analysis is probably correct.

I had heard about the poor maintenance of the tie, and GG writes that the knot was undone. This is just further confirmation.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6200 on: March 03, 2021, 06:47:49 AM »
I forgot they took the knot apart. I remember this now from some time back. I wouldn't doubt a lot of agents handled the tie the evening it was found. nothing can be utilized by science at this point. even if it was handled with care for the last 15 years it would still be questionable. we already know Cooper was a smoker so seeing it on the tie doesn't really matter if it's from him or agent X.

Georger, the last 3 comments from you have been nothing but "smart ass" remarks. you were warned about this recently. the next post like this will get you a free ticket out of here. no time out, no time in the cooler...history. you are disrespecting me, this forum and everyone on here.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 06:53:56 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6201 on: March 03, 2021, 08:56:35 AM »
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I forgot they took the knot apart. I remember this now from some time back. I wouldn't doubt a lot of agents handled the tie the evening it was found. nothing can be utilized by science at this point. even if it was handled with care for the last 15 years it would still be questionable. we already know Cooper was a smoker so seeing it on the tie doesn't really matter if it's from him or agent X.

Georger, the last 3 comments from you have been nothing but "smart ass" remarks. you were warned about this recently. the next post like this will get you a free ticket out of here. no time out, no time in the cooler...history. you are disrespecting me, this forum and everyone on here.

We really don't know whether DBC was a smoker or if the eight cigarettes--which wasn't a lot--was a ploy. I think it's notable that DBC was known to throw out red herrings--like wanting to fly to Mexico City. The smoking could be one too. Additionally, he may have parted his brown hair on the right as opposed to the black-dyed hair parted on the left we see in the FBI sketch.

I've said before that I believe if the real DB Cooper finally appeared that there would be 85% of the guy that we would recognize as being DBC. However, there would be another 15% that we wouldn't recognize. Part of that 15% may be that he didn't smoke, maybe he had blue eyes, maybe he didn't work around titanium or rare earth elements but instead worked at the Library of Congress around books, etc.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6202 on: March 03, 2021, 12:25:24 PM »
I believe DB really smoked those cigarettes.  Tina had one with him they say.  If someone is not really smoking it, ie, not inhaling it, you can tell and if they are not a smoker and do inhale, its going to be rather unpleasant.  I just hope he quit as that would increase the chances of him still being around.  Its likely still a stretch.  As for titanium, its used very often in the medical field also.  But medical people are usually paid well enough not to hijack planes?  Ah, those damn cigarette butts.  What a nightmare losing them.  Or destroying them as I heard on one show
 

Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6203 on: March 03, 2021, 12:25:41 PM »
As per EU's last post ......Just came in the house from doing chores. Looks like I should have kept my boots on. It's getting pretty deep! 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 12:27:39 PM by haggarknew »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6204 on: March 03, 2021, 12:51:09 PM »
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As per EU's last post ......Just came in the house from doing chores. Looks like I should have kept my boots on. It's getting pretty deep!

People can be clever all they want here but the fact remains the guy got away. So perhaps some should swallow their arrogance for a moment and rethink what they think they know about DBC.

It is very easy to make certain assumptions based upon DBC's words and actions, but you are well-served to remember he is being deceptive therefore your conclusions may well be incorrect.

Sometimes a word or action is nothing more than a word or action. Other times it's part of a ploy.

An example: DB Cooper commented about recognizing Tacoma from the air. How do we know with certainty that the jet was actually flying over Tacoma at that moment? How do we know the jet wasn't over Everett or Lake Union at that moment? How do we know he wasn't pretending to be familiar with the Seattle region? Shall we just take DBC's word here that he's being honest and forthright even though he's skyjacking an airliner?

Tacoma is not easy to recognize from the air because the Puget Sound region is huge. I know because I lived there for years and have flown in and out of there literally hundreds of times.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6205 on: March 03, 2021, 01:02:01 PM »
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I forgot they took the knot apart. I remember this now from some time back. I wouldn't doubt a lot of agents handled the tie the evening it was found. nothing can be utilized by science at this point. even if it was handled with care for the last 15 years it would still be questionable. we already know Cooper was a smoker so seeing it on the tie doesn't really matter if it's from him or agent X.

Georger, the last 3 comments from you have been nothing but "smart ass" remarks. you were warned about this recently. the next post like this will get you a free ticket out of here. no time out, no time in the cooler...history. you are disrespecting me, this forum and everyone on here.

Tom needs to speak to these people's allegations. EU needs to name the TV Producer. Ingram and Gray both may have grudges against the FBI.

It strikes me and it is my opinion based on EU's performance to date, that EU's whole narrative is to throw out established evidence in the Cooper case any way he can, attack and eliminate anyone he sees as competition (namely me), in order that EU can then establish his own narrative and control in a complete remake of the Cooper case ... EU's program is tactical and some of his allegations are totally undocumented, just for starters.

What EU fails to mention is that the 'collection' of rare elements Tom documented on the tie is so rare and unique, that collection falls far outside the random curve for what one would find in any 'random deposition' from the general public, or FBI agents in particular. These elements Tom found are not ordinarily passed around on the persons of those people who have touched or been in contact with the tie since it was taken into evidence.

Even more importantly! It now falls to EU, Ingram, Gray, and some unnamed TV Producer to produce actual evidence that Tom's collection of rare elements was on the hands or person of those who have been in contact with this tie! It is not enough to throw out speculations - one must prove such an assertion.

Everyone has known all along that handling of evidence in the Cooper case was poor. That is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Moreover practically speaking, throwing Tom's evidence out will never happen now that it exists! Thinking people will always include Tom's discoveries in any appraisal of the DB Cooper case and nobody can undo that now, by any set of conspiracy claims ....

It is also interesting that it was Brian Ingram who resisted any lab analysis of his money! Now Brian pops up concerned and remarking about the integrity of DB Cooper evidence? Maybe Brian will now allow EU to do lab analysis on Brian's money ? 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 01:34:43 PM by georger »
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6206 on: March 03, 2021, 02:14:01 PM »
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I forgot they took the knot apart. I remember this now from some time back. I wouldn't doubt a lot of agents handled the tie the evening it was found. nothing can be utilized by science at this point. even if it was handled with care for the last 15 years it would still be questionable. we already know Cooper was a smoker so seeing it on the tie doesn't really matter if it's from him or agent X.

Georger, the last 3 comments from you have been nothing but "smart ass" remarks. you were warned about this recently. the next post like this will get you a free ticket out of here. no time out, no time in the cooler...history. you are disrespecting me, this forum and everyone on here.

Tom needs to speak to these people's allegations. EU needs to name the TV Producer. Ingram and Gray both may have grudges against the FBI.

It strikes me and it is my opinion based on EU's performance to date, that EU's whole narrative is to throw out established evidence in the Cooper case any way he can, attack and eliminate anyone he sees as competition (namely me), in order that EU can then establish his own narrative and control in a complete remake of the Cooper case ... EU's program is tactical and some of his allegations are totally undocumented, just for starters.

What EU fails to mention is that the 'collection' of rare elements Tom documented on the tie is so rare and unique, that collection falls far outside the random curve for what one would find in any 'random deposition' from the general public, or FBI agents in particular. These elements Tom found are not ordinarily passed around on the persons of those people who have touched or been in contact with the tie since it was taken into evidence.

Even more importantly! It now falls to EU, Ingram, Gray, and some unnamed TV Producer to produce actual evidence that Tom's collection of rare elements was on the hands or person of those who have been in contact with this tie! It is not enough to throw out speculations - one must prove such an assertion.

Everyone has known all along that handling of evidence in the Cooper case was poor. That is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Moreover practically speaking, throwing Tom's evidence out will never happen now that it exists! Thinking people will always include Tom's discoveries in any appraisal of the DB Cooper case and nobody can undo that now, by any set of conspiracy claims ....

It is also interesting that it was Brian Ingram who resisted any lab analysis of his money! Now Brian pops up concerned and remarking about the integrity of DB Cooper evidence? Maybe Brian will now allow EU to do lab analysis on Brian's money ?

GEORGER I love the conflated perception of yourself that literally has you thinking that I'm involved in a conspiracy to discredit you--one person who has contributed virtually nothing to this case. The nice thing about being the subject of an accusation is that I actually know the truth and that you're full of shit.

Say what you will, but given what I've learned about the truth of how this tie has been handled over the years, the tie wouldn't even be admissible evidence in traffic court.

I wish this were not the case. I wish we knew with certainty that the titanium, stainless steel, aluminum, rare earth elements, match head residue and the like came from Cooper. But we don't.

That said, it may have. That's why I have said that we should keep it in the back of our minds but take it with a grain of salt.

Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me this is an outrageous line of thought that is irrational.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6207 on: March 03, 2021, 02:54:41 PM »
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I forgot they took the knot apart. I remember this now from some time back. I wouldn't doubt a lot of agents handled the tie the evening it was found. nothing can be utilized by science at this point. even if it was handled with care for the last 15 years it would still be questionable. we already know Cooper was a smoker so seeing it on the tie doesn't really matter if it's from him or agent X.

Georger, the last 3 comments from you have been nothing but "smart ass" remarks. you were warned about this recently. the next post like this will get you a free ticket out of here. no time out, no time in the cooler...history. you are disrespecting me, this forum and everyone on here.

Tom needs to speak to these people's allegations. EU needs to name the TV Producer. Ingram and Gray both may have grudges against the FBI.

It strikes me and it is my opinion based on EU's performance to date, that EU's whole narrative is to throw out established evidence in the Cooper case any way he can, attack and eliminate anyone he sees as competition (namely me), in order that EU can then establish his own narrative and control in a complete remake of the Cooper case ... EU's program is tactical and some of his allegations are totally undocumented, just for starters.

What EU fails to mention is that the 'collection' of rare elements Tom documented on the tie is so rare and unique, that collection falls far outside the random curve for what one would find in any 'random deposition' from the general public, or FBI agents in particular. These elements Tom found are not ordinarily passed around on the persons of those people who have touched or been in contact with the tie since it was taken into evidence.

Even more importantly! It now falls to EU, Ingram, Gray, and some unnamed TV Producer to produce actual evidence that Tom's collection of rare elements was on the hands or person of those who have been in contact with this tie! It is not enough to throw out speculations - one must prove such an assertion.

Everyone has known all along that handling of evidence in the Cooper case was poor. That is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Moreover practically speaking, throwing Tom's evidence out will never happen now that it exists! Thinking people will always include Tom's discoveries in any appraisal of the DB Cooper case and nobody can undo that now, by any set of conspiracy claims ....

It is also interesting that it was Brian Ingram who resisted any lab analysis of his money! Now Brian pops up concerned and remarking about the integrity of DB Cooper evidence? Maybe Brian will now allow EU to do lab analysis on Brian's money ?

GEORGER I love the conflated perception of yourself that literally has you thinking that I'm involved in a conspiracy to discredit you--one person who has contributed virtually nothing to this case. The nice thing about being the subject of an accusation is that I actually know the truth and that you're full of shit.

Say what you will, but given what I've learned about the truth of how this tie has been handled over the years, the tie wouldn't even be admissible evidence in traffic court.

I wish this were not the case. I wish we knew with certainty that the titanium, stainless steel, aluminum, rare earth elements, match head residue and the like came from Cooper. But we don't.

That said, it may have. That's why I have said that we should keep it in the back of our minds but take it with a grain of salt.

Tell me I'm wrong. Tell me this is an outrageous line of thought that is irrational.

I already posted my thoughts. Sorry you continue to avoid what I say! Again, Kaye's particle list is established FACT in the Cooper case and isnt going away. I think you know that.....

Sorry.
 
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 03:13:15 PM by georger »
 
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Offline haggarknew

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6208 on: March 03, 2021, 06:35:20 PM »

 
I  realize that Georger
doesn't  need me to defend him. That being said, I take offense at the statement claiming Georger has contributed little to nothing to this forum (or case). Although I understand he can be abrasive at times (I could be under stating this lol) I, for one, very much appreciate his contributions! Defending the actual FACTS is just one of his many contributions, in my humble opinion.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 06:38:10 PM by haggarknew »
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6209 on: March 03, 2021, 07:52:42 PM »
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I  realize that Georger
doesn't  need me to defend him. That being said, I take offense at the statement claiming Georger has contributed little to nothing to this forum (or case). Although I understand he can be abrasive at times (I could be under stating this lol) I, for one, very much appreciate his contributions! Defending the actual FACTS is just one of his many contributions, in my humble opinion.

Even though I strongly disagree with your characterization, I welcome and appreciate your view on the matter.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK
 
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