Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (12.2%)
25% Cooper lived
3 (6.1%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (4.1%)
50% Cooper lived
10 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
10 (20.4%)
100 Cooper lived
18 (36.7%)

Total Members Voted: 44

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 494544 times)

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6225 on: March 04, 2021, 05:31:40 PM »
(As always I could be wrong, but...) Didn't Kaye's research indicate that the money had not been on Tena Bar for as long as the time since the hijacking? Didn't he conclude that it had only been there for a year or two?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6226 on: March 04, 2021, 11:54:12 PM »
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(As always I could be wrong, but...) Didn't Kaye's research indicate that the money had not been on Tena Bar for as long as the time since the hijacking? Didn't he conclude that it had only been there for a year or two?

Originally Tom thought the money arrived at TBar in 1971. But he may have changed his position during the years. Im not sure what his current position is - if and when he comes here just ask him!
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6227 on: March 06, 2021, 09:05:47 PM »
More information regarding the stairs...

In the event of mechanical failure backups were designed. the landing gear is similar to what was installed in the stairs as a backup. the emergency function which was optional or not installed on all 727-100's. it would release the uplocks allowing the stairs to fall. the landing gear has a similar function..they are noted as red handles...

The emergency extension system lowers the landing gear if the main power system fails. There are numerous ways in which this is done depending on the size and complexity of the aircraft. Some aircraft have an emergency release handle in the flight deck that is connected through a mechanical linkage to the gear uplocks. When the handle is operated, it releases the uplocks and allows the gear to free-fall to the extended position under the force created by gravity acting upon the gear. Other aircraft use a non-mechanical back-up, such as pneumatic power, to unlatch the gear.

The emergency option in the 727 is called "Aft Airstair Pneumatic Emergency Extension System"

Continental flight 614 November 21, 1980

After the aircraft came to rest. she attempted to open the aft pressure bulkhead door leading to the aft stairs exit. she said two passengers interfered with the opening of the door because it opens inward. when she got the door open, she attempted to open the airstair with the normal handle, but it didn't operate. she did not attempt to use the emergency extension handle for the Pneumatic system because she was not aware of the system
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 09:43:36 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6228 on: March 06, 2021, 09:11:46 PM »
As a result of the problems with the opening of the stairs the NTSB  gave the following recommendations

Require that air carriers operating applicable Boeing 727 aircraft
include emergency procedures for operation of the ventral airstair
door in their training programs for cabin crews. (Class I, Urgent
Action) (A-81-61)

Issue an Airworthiness Directive on applicable Boeing 727 aircraft
to require that the location of the emergency operating control for
the ventral airstair door be readily apparent regardless of the
position of the access door for the normal system control. (Class I,
Urgent Action) (A-81-62)
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 09:13:41 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6229 on: March 07, 2021, 05:03:57 AM »
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(As always I could be wrong, but...) Didn't Kaye's research indicate that the money had not been on Tena Bar for as long as the time since the hijacking? Didn't he conclude that it had only been there for a year or two?

Originally Tom thought the money arrived at TBar in 1971. But he may have changed his position during the years. Im not sure what his current position is - if and when he comes here just ask him!

I have watched a zillion docs and podcasts on this and the end result is " he is as unsure how the money arrived at Tena Bar as to who DB Cooper is"
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6230 on: March 07, 2021, 10:42:05 AM »
It appears the emergency system was only found where we have seen the system in the past. after the Continental crash the NTSB made recommendations. on April 1, 1981 the FAA made posted the following. I think many opted to deactivate the system.

81-02-09 BOEING: Amendment 39-4024. Applies to all Boeing Model 727-100 and 727-100C series airplanes equipped with the aft airstair emergency extension system, except all-cargo configurations and those airplanes where the aft stair emergency extension system has been deactivated.

Compliance is required as indicated. Accomplish the following:

A. Prior to June 1, 1981, replace or modify the aft airstair emergency extension control handle in a manner approved by the Chief, Seattle Area Aircraft Certification Office, FAA Northwest Region. (Note: Accomplishment of Boeing Service Bulletin 727-52-120 dated March 21, 1980, or later FAA approved revisions has been approved as a means of compliance with the requirements of this AD.)

B. Upon request of the operator, an FAA aviation safety inspector, subject to prior approval by the Chief, Seattle Area Aircraft Certification Office, FAA Northwest Region, may adjust the compliance date if the request contains substantiating data to justify the change.

This amendment becomes effective April 1, 1981.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 10:42:35 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6231 on: March 07, 2021, 10:49:38 AM »
I don't think the emergency system was moved prior to the crash in 1980 or after. it was phased out as Hominid has mentioned. probably cheaper than moving or redesigning the system. if the emergency system is not found at the lower right of the main control door, the aircraft didn't have the system and highly unlikely it was installed elsewhere.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6232 on: March 07, 2021, 10:58:51 AM »
The aft stairs were phased out themselves to passengers and became an emergency exit only. a placard was required instructing this on January 5, 1981.

80-08-01 R1 BOEING: Amendment 39-3735 as amended by Amendment 39-4003. Applies to all Model 727 airplanes in passenger service: Before July 1, 1981, accomplish either A or B on all Model 727 airplanes operating in passenger service with the aft ventral stairway panels removed.

A. Normal passenger access to the ventral stairway is not permitted. Install a conspicuous placard having one-half inch high red letters on a white background containing the words, "Emergency Exit Only, Not for Normal Passenger Use," on the ventral stairway sidewall panel P/N 65-70711 or in a location approved by the Chief, Seattle Area Aircraft Certification Office, FAA Northwest Region. Alternate methods of compliance may be approved by the Chief, Seattle Area Aircraft Certification Office, FAA Northwest Region.

B. Install the original panels per FAA approved type design or other panels found to be equivalent by the FAA. An FAA Maintenance Inspector may determine if other than original panels are acceptable or designs may be submitted to the Chief, Engineering and Manufacturing Branch, FAA Northwest Region for approval.

Amendment 39-3735 became effective April 17, 1980.

This amendment 39-4003 becomes effective January 5, 1981.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6233 on: March 07, 2021, 11:12:27 AM »
None of this tells us anything regarding 305. Or explain how the FBI could have not noticed the system being absent from 305--which is what you are telling me.

Any modifications simply had to be approved by the Chief in Seattle. That's all it says.

Also, I'm not sure how the 1981 restriction regarding use of the airstairs by passengers was implemented because I have actually used the airstairs to depart a 727 as a passenger...probably in the mid 90's.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6234 on: March 07, 2021, 11:48:05 AM »
Quote
None of this tells us anything regarding 305. Or explain how the FBI could have not noticed the system being absent from 305--which is what you are telling me.

Correct, it's information surrounding the stairs that is useful in it's totality. understanding the operations and it's functions and updates could be used at a later date and educates along the way. what I've learned is it's apparent that it would be cost effective to deactivate vs moving the system and speaks about the location. sure, it's post information but helps.

I don't think we can claim the system was anywhere else other than the known location. the 1980 crash exposes the problems with the location. if someone shows a photo of it anywhere else, chances are it has to do with the above information which would help clear up the issue as to why it's in a different location making that irrelevant.

The FBI wouldn't know of the system unless it was used or shown to them for reasons surrounding the hijacking. they know about the same as the passengers when it comes to functions on any aircraft. they didn't have the slightest idea how to make a flight path map or where he could of landed. they are told these things. FBI and the FAA or NTSB are different in many ways.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6235 on: March 07, 2021, 11:55:14 AM »
Quote
This amendment 39-4003 becomes effective January 5, 1981.

Possibly another amendment was given. 1981 vs 1991
 

Offline Darren

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6236 on: March 10, 2021, 03:48:20 PM »
I received this info from John Madinger, who an Economic Crimes Adviser for the US Treasury regarding laundering the money.

Anyhow, Cooper. I heard he got 200 grand and they found some of it later, a relatively small amount. Laundering that amount of money wouldn't be very hard. All you need, really, is time, which either got a lot of or none at all. Money launderers face problems with two situations. One is that you have to launder a one-time, large quantity of cash (usually). The other is that you have to launder an ongoing revenue stream. They're different problems with different solutions, but if you've got a lot of time, you can launder a lot of money. $200,000 isn't that much, even back in 1971, even in a one-shot deal. 10,000 $20 bills weigh exactly ten kilos or 22 pounds, and the $20 note is much more commonly used in general circulation than the $100. Further, and this isn't widely known but I wonder if D B might have known it, in 1971, Federal Reserve Banks were routinely tracking $100 notes, at least in large transactions. I don't know how it was done, but they could tell by serial number which bank had sent which bill to the local FRB. This actually tripped up some of the Watergate conspirators. You'll remember that some of the Watergate burglars had cash - $100 bills - on their persons when they were arrested. The FBI traced that money back through the FRB Atlanta branch in Miami to a South Florida bank where it had been deposited by somebody in Nixon's re-election campaign. (Simplifying things a bit, but you get the picture.) Anyhow, the FRBs weren't doing it with $20 bills but one presumes that they had the capability to at least note the serial numbers when they came through because they were doing it with the hundreds in large transactions.

But Cooper's got $200,000 of very, very hot money. How does he use it without having it traced back to him? Here are three possibilities just offhand.
1) He could do it all at once, by essentially fencing it, selling it to someone at a discount. The hot money then becomes someone else's problem and DB walks away with a (considerably smaller) quantity of spendable cash. You'd have to be pretty confident about your fence, however, assured that the person if/when caught wouldn't tell the cops where he'd come by the ransom money. Here's a scenario that might work out well for DB, though not so much for his fence: DB arranges with an associate to sell $200,000 at a substantial discount, say 50 percent. The fence brings the $100,000 to the meet and DB kills him. Then he takes the $200,000 in ransom money out into the forest and seeds it around the place, so if anybody finds it, they'll think he lost it in the jump or died out in the forest. He goes to Maui and lives happily ever after with $100,000 in clean money and none of the ransom notes ever turn up in circulation.
2) DB has an associate who works in a bank. The two of them devise some plan to slide the ransom money into the bank's cash without passing through a teller who might check the serial numbers. The money goes into circulation and can't be traced back to DB or probably even the bank. The problem with this scenario is that eventually, those bills are going to go through another bank or end up at an FRB branch and be detected there. It may take a while, but someday they'll turn up. The advantages are that it would be very difficult to trace back to DB and that he'd probably have more of the $200,000. Maybe he'd only have to pay 15 or 20 percent for the banking service. The disadvantages are that the FBI is inevitably going to catch on and figure out where the stream is. And of course, you've got a live confederate who may be persuaded to talk when the FBI arrives on her door. Still, money launderers love banks, and I'd call this the Scarface Solution because it's how Al Pacino laundered all his coke money in the movie. It's also the one used by Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid in real life when they had a problem exactly like DB's. (Incredibly similar, really, even though it was 70 years earlier.)
3) DB just sits on the cash for a long time, the longer the better, and doesn't put any of it in circulation. Ten or maybe even five years later, nobody's looking nearly as hard, and he can just spend it here and there in dribs and drabs, being careful not to do large transactions (over $10,000) that might be reported to the government or that might require him to provide ID. Travel around, spread the money out over a big area and a long time, you could probably go a while without getting caught. Again, though, those bills are eventually going to pop up on the FBI's screen It's my understanding that none ever have.

A really classic example of a very similar situation is Bruno Richard Hauptmann, who New Jersey fried in 1936 for kidnapping the infant son of Charles Lindbergh. Hauptmann got a ransom of $50,000. Not only were the serial numbers recorded (by the Treasury Department's Intelligence Unit, NOT the FBI), but the Treasury people insisted on including some larger denomination gold certificates, knowing that the government was planning to stop issuing those and recall those in circulation when the US went off the gold standard. This made certain parts of the ransom very distinctive and made spending it more difficult. The government circulated a complete list of all of the serial numbers to banks across the country and a couple of years later, a teller picked up on one of the bills that had been used at a gas station. The gas station attendant had written the customer's license number on the note, that led back to Hauptmann, and he was on his way to the electric chair.  From what I read, the Cooper ransom notes were all "unmarked" but mostly from a certain FRB and series, and each bill was copied. Although the numbers were later widely circulated, none have ever been found. That wasn't the case with Hauptmann's ransom, however. Bank tellers had been spotting the notes for almost the whole time, and Treasury had been making a map of where the bills had been spent. Most of the locations were in New York City, primarily in the Bronx, and this turned out to be where Hauptmann was living. He was using the money to make lifestyle purchases, spending a $20 ransom note on a $2 purchase and getting $18 in clean money back, for example. Since he had a lot of time and didn't use the money on purchases requiring identification, like buying a car or investing in a brokerage account, or depositing it into his own bank account, he could go on like that almost indefinitely. And over time. the tellers would have gotten less diligent about checking.

So, there are a few of my observations without knowing a whole lot about the case. Personally, I think he didn't make it, which is why none of the bills ever made it into circulation. But I can see at least one scenario (#1 above) that might explain that and have DB surviving and getting to spend at least some money.

End quote.

I was hoping to get him on the show, but I’m thankful for this info.
The Cooper Vortex - A Podcast about DB Cooper - Available on most podcast apps
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6237 on: March 10, 2021, 04:39:43 PM »
Good stuff for a microphone jockey, Darren! :rofl:

Between Arthur Friedberg and this gentleman, I think the consensus among the experts is that it’s possible for Cooper to be able to wash the money and none of it be identified, but unlikely.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6238 on: March 10, 2021, 08:08:31 PM »
I've been looking into the placard/marker for the past couple days. Hominid told me in a email years ago that most of the planes with the emergency option were cargo planes. just about every plane having the system found were 727-100c. those would be the conversion planes. a large cargo door can be seen on the port side of the aircraft along with looking up the registration number or "N" number. 305 shows 727-51 while a conversion shows 727-22c

The first 727's didn't have the system. this was added later. I assumed it was originally installed and faded out. I'm not even sure the first years had any controls in the stairwell. several documents show where the controls are for the aft stairs and how to operate them. they only show the exterior of the plane having this function. it's also pointed out on the port side of the aircraft. possibly, the ground crew was used to open and close them until the controls were installed in the stairwell. this also explains why a placard is in place directing you to the opposite side of the aircraft for the controls. they were moved.

All the models found were from the years 1966 to 1968. a lot of them appear to have the placard over the access door that was on the port side so you can read the placard when approaching the plane to raise or lower the stairs from the ground. one model was found that wasn't a conversion. this was turned into a luxury aircraft with the N number N30MP and was a 727-21 manufacture in 1966.

Boeing wouldn't need to sell kits for the emergency function if they were direct from the manufacture on all 727-100's from the first day of manufacture. The first commercial flight was February 1,1964 with Eastern airlines flying from Miami to Philadelphia. 305 was an early model with the first flight in 1965.

This doesn't resolve much but gets us closer to understanding a few things and questioning other things. I've only seen one document about two emergency controls inside and outside. most only refer to the normal controls inside and outside. the failure of seeing the placard/marker on any aircraft is also frustrating viewing dozens of planes and zooming in for a look.

I'm not fully satisfied with all the documents, 302's about the placard. yes, I question whether or not 305 actually had the function. it's looking more and more that it didn't.

Flyjack, can you post the document surrounding the emergency option where they explain it's not on all the planes. I can't find the document in my files...I'm interested in the year of the document and the amount of kits which I recall were just under a hundred. only 572 727-100's were made.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6239 on: March 11, 2021, 01:26:06 AM »
Thanks for the document Fly...

Some of it is confusing.

Boeing made total of 572 727-100's

407...100 series 00/100
53...100c
111...100QC
Total 571..Boeing kept one making it 572

The document below states 91 planes identified as cargo/passenger had the emergency system.and 164 passenger only aircraft had the emergency option. 63 kits were sold. according to records only 53 were manufactured as 100c. they don't mention the 100QC series (Quick change) possibly figured in with the 100c..

318 planes were equipped with the emergency option leaving 253 without the option. it doesn't specify any year they started using the system..none of the Northwest airlines safety cards show the device either.