Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 1178469 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6630 on: November 28, 2021, 11:46:09 PM »
Interesting paper showing how velocity varies with depth in the columba below Grand Coulee Dam
i.e. velocity is not constant across the channel
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ABOUT COLUMBIA RIVER VELOCITY-DEPTH

Current velocities were measured on a number of transects across the Columbia River in Washington State, to understand how velocity varies within a channel. The velocity at any point in a river is controlled by a number of factors, including the river's slope or gradient, roughness of the channel bed, turbulence of the flow, depth of the river, etc. Typically, water moves faster away from the bed of the river, where obstacles create drag and turbulence. The highest velocity overall is usually in the deepest part of the channel, just below the surface. Knowing the average velocity in a channel is extremely important when calculating river discharge, the volume of water flowing past in a given amount of time.

The data on velocity versus depth in the channel were acquired at a station below Grand Coulee Dam at a distance of 13 feet from the edge of the river. The depth of the Columbia River at this spot was about 12 feet at the time of measurement. Velocities were measured at various heights in the water column.

These data show a regular decrease of velocity with increasing depth in the river, as might be expected. The data are fairly linear, with a high correlation coefficient.

Other locales show a similar decrease in velocity with depth, though often with much more scatter, and without the fairly monotonic behavior exhibited by this example.

Reference: Savini, J. and Bodhaine, G. L. (1971), Analysis of current meter data at Columbia River gaging stations, Washington and Oregon; USGS Water Supply Paper 1869-F.
also see:
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ABOUT COLUMBIA RIVER VELOCITY HISTOGRAMS

    Current velocities were measured on a number of transects across the Columbia River in Washington State, to understand how velocity varies within a channel. The velocity at any point in a river is controlled by a number of factors, including the river's slope or gradient, roughness of the channel bed, turbulence of the flow, depth of the river, etc. Typically, water moves faster away from the bed of the river, where obstacles create drag and turbulence. The highest velocity overall is usually in the deepest part of the channel, just below the surface.

    Data on the variation of velocity with time at 3 different depths were obtained along a transect below Priest Rapids Dam on the Columbia River in Washington State. Velocities were measured every minute for 66 minutes. Even though all other variables are fixed, velocity still varies with time as the current surges and wanes. Knowing the mean velocity in a channel is extremely important when calculating river discharge, the volume of water flowing past in a given amount of time. The data emphasize the importance of thorough measurement.

    The histograms and accompanying statistical parameters show some interesting patterns. Mean velocity decreases with depth, as expected. Roughness of the bed has a strong influence on velocity, due to both drag and turbulence. The standard deviation increases with increasing depth, perhaps reflecting this increasing turbulence.

    Reference: Savini, J. and Bodhaine, G. L. (1971), Analysis of current meter data at Columbia River gaging stations, Washington and Oregon; USGS Water Supply Paper 1869-F.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2021, 11:47:44 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6631 on: November 29, 2021, 01:50:49 AM »
some data about historic crests (stage in ft) at the Vancouver, WA Columbia river station
Columbia River At Vancouver (VAPW1). Data goes back to 1894

Note that 1974 and 1972 both had similar stage crests
(17) 21.50 ft on 06/12/1972
(18) 21.10 ft on 06/22/1974
(19) 19.54 ft on 01/24/1970

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historic crests taken from here. ordered by stage (ft) not year

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Historic Crests
(1) 33.60 ft on 06/07/1894
(2) 31.00 ft on 06/13/1948
(3) 30.80 ft on 06/01/1948
(4) 27.70 ft on 12/25/1964
(5) 27.60 ft on 06/04/1956
(6) 27.20 ft on 02/09/1996
(7) 26.30 ft on 06/19/1933
(8) 26.20 ft on 05/31/1928
(9) 26.00 ft on 06/12/1921
(10) 25.90 ft on 06/26/1950
(11) 25.60 ft on 06/16/1903
(12) 25.44 ft on 01/19/1965
(13) 25.30 ft on 06/22/1917
(14) 25.30 ft on 06/03/1916
(15) 25.20 ft on 06/13/1913
(16) 22.55 ft on 01/03/1997
(17) 21.50 ft on 06/12/1972
(18) 21.10 ft on 06/22/1974
(19) 19.54 ft on 01/24/1970
(20) 19.03 ft on 06/05/1997
(21) 18.50 ft on 12/01/1995
(22) 17.60 ft on 03/30/2017
(23) 17.50 ft on 04/27/1996
(24) 17.43 ft on 06/02/2011
(25) 16.80 ft on 02/02/1997
(26) 15.60 ft on 04/12/2019
(27) 15.00 ft on 12/30/1998
(28) 12.32 ft on 11/26/1999

(P): Preliminary values subject to further review.

EDIT: added snapshot showing location of the gauge
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 02:07:30 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6632 on: November 29, 2021, 01:56:05 AM »
To put a point on it,
the water level right now at the Columbia at Vancouver is about 4 feet
They call anything above 16 ft "Flood stage"

in 1972 and 1974 they were at 21 ft.

so regardless of flow, the water levels were 17 ft higher then, compared to what you would see today.

I saw in the flood insurance paper, that they said during flooding, Vancouver Lake is overrun by the Columbia...to give a good mental image to relate to maps of the area.

My problem with any "flood" movement theory, is that it seems more random to understand why money landed on Tena Bar (if by flooding/increased water flow)
It would seem during flooding, that it would be more likely for all money to disappear downriver, and none be found.
Dredging, in my mind, connects with events and likelihood of find, better. Since dredge spoils deposits aren't as random as flooding, and connected to the site in question.

Also: the flooding was so drastic and impactful in '72 and '74, it's hard to believe that any money "moved around" then just happened to stay in that location until '80
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 02:00:55 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6633 on: November 29, 2021, 02:37:44 AM »
As someone who has gone swimming at T-Bar in August, I can tell you that the current is pretty swift. Not sure how many knots - 4?, 5? - but it was enough to make me cautious about being swept out into the main body of water and away from the shoreline. I'm not sure that there is a rip tide current away from the sandy beach, but I didn't want to take any chances.

I've also swum way upstream by The Dalles, the current is really ripping there, too.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 02:38:08 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6634 on: November 29, 2021, 01:06:57 PM »
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Working on some ideas after talking to TK at CoooperCon, does anyone know how fast the river currents are at Flood Stage in the Columbia river? Or better, what the current was at the peak of the 72 flood?

About 2 weeks ago I drove across the Glenn Jackson Bridge( I 205 ) to have breakfast with my Brother in Portland.
It was the same day after the so called Pineapple Express hit Oregon/Washington. Also much to my dismay there was a very bad accident that had blocked both lanes. Well there I was in the middle of the raging Columbia River surrounded by 18 wheelers ! Trust me …… The River probably wasn’t at flood stage but it was raging and very filthy with logs and debris everywhere! I remember telling my story that If the bridge would collapse because of the added weight of all the cars and trucks, I wouldn’t even attempt to try to swim ashore. I would simply swallow as much water as quickly as I could and get it over with !
My point is that it doesn’t take a flood stage to cause the Columbia River to rage ! I moved to area in 1946 ! I’ve witnessed the Vanport Flood ! Look it up as it took many lives and destroyed the second largest City in Oregon at the time !
 
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6635 on: November 29, 2021, 03:36:13 PM »
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Working on some ideas after talking to TK at CoooperCon, does anyone know how fast the river currents are at Flood Stage in the Columbia river? Or better, what the current was at the peak of the 72 flood?

About 2 weeks ago I drove across the Glenn Jackson Bridge( I 205 ) to have breakfast with my Brother in Portland.
It was the same day after the so called Pineapple Express hit Oregon/Washington. Also much to my dismay there was a very bad accident that had blocked both lanes. Well there I was in the middle of the raging Columbia River surrounded by 18 wheelers ! Trust me …… The River probably wasn’t at flood stage but it was raging and very filthy with logs and debris everywhere! I remember telling my story that If the bridge would collapse because of the added weight of all the cars and trucks, I wouldn’t even attempt to try to swim ashore. I would simply swallow as much water as quickly as I could and get it over with !
My point is that it doesn’t take a flood stage to cause the Columbia River to rage ! I moved to area in 1946 ! I’ve witnessed the Vanport Flood ! Look it up as it took many lives and destroyed the second largest City in Oregon at the time !

Interesting.
So, is anyone claiming that it's reasonable to say a "raging" river left the money found on Tena Bar?
I would think a better theory would be that a "raging" river scoured Tena Bar clean!!
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6636 on: November 29, 2021, 04:17:55 PM »
back to evidence and away from Cooper Duper Bongophelia!

1. 'and the rubber bands fell off (in pieces) and turned to dust ... when touched'.  Hmmm. None of Kaye's experiments-results reflect that condition. Lets stay low-tech for the suspect hunter mentality here. Rubber band chemistry is well documented but shunned by Cooperites.  None of Kaye's experiments-results reflect the band condition the Ingrams described or found..  Hmmm. I wonder why.  ;)   Kaye's experiment stopped at 234 days. It had been 2920 days since the hijacking when the money was suddenly found in a place totally unrelated to any flight path claim. Hmmm. 234 vs 2920 days. Hmmm.  Where? At Tina Bar. Money was on the plane then 2920 days later its at a sandbar on the Columbia. Hmmm. I will just say:  'and the rubber bands fell off (in pieces) and turned to dust ... when touched' is 2920 days later. Hmmm. Must have been in Nature all along! Near the surface - exposed to UV. Hmmmmm. Nothing in TK's testing even approaches or duplicates the state the Ingrams said the rubber bands were in! Hmmm.

2. Tom examined four bills. His first three revealed no diatoms at all. Then finally a forth bill revealed diatoms ... but all within 1/8th to 1/4 inch of the edges of the bills. No toms centrally located on any bill. Is that what Tom is saying? That implies no fanning out of the bills in water! Hmmm. Side incursion only but only 1/8-1/4" in from the edges, on one bill only so far? Hmmm. ............  with this important evidence lets break and go back to regularly scheduled suspect-book writer programming. It makes my hayd hurt!  Yeppper.

 :rofl:
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 04:31:57 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6637 on: November 29, 2021, 04:32:48 PM »
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  None of Kaye's experiments-results reflect the band condition the Ingrams described or found..  Hmmm. I wonder why.  ;)   

yes, we've discussed that.
I would really like a recipe that's shown to re-create the rubber band find (if indeed there were rubber bands)
i.e. instead of giving results of experiments for certain conditions....find the conditions to reproduce the state of the found rubber bands..and then also a recipe for reproducing the state of the found bills.

Did Cooper himself do something? Or was it all nature? Was it all nature in the Columbia/Washington area?

Or did Cooper have to carry it around in a canvas sack in Muldova for 8 years to create the result? (or bury in a garden in Muldova?)

I have a bunch of 1963A and 1969 bills that were circulated.
They are in a different condition (good)
So, at least we know there are conditions that preserve bills more crisply, since 1963A/1969 distribution, even when circulated for some time !!
That bookends the possibilities!
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 04:42:35 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6638 on: November 29, 2021, 04:44:42 PM »
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2. Tom examined four bills. His first three revealed no diatoms at all. Then finally a forth bill revealed diatoms ... but all within 1/8th to 1/4 inch of the edges of the bills. No toms centrally located on any bill. Is that what Tom is saying? That implies no fanning out of the bills in water! Hmmm. Side incursion only but only 1/8-1/4" in from the edges, on one bill only so far? Hmmm. ............  with this important evidence lets break and go back to regularly scheduled suspect-book writer programming. It makes my hayd hurt!  Yeppper.

 :rofl:

I believe after Edwards is done restating Tom's work on Ti on the tie, the good doctor will restate the diatom evidence for us.
Please ignore anything Tom has said.
Tom is butt-dialing Edwards while drunk and confessing his manipulations of data, and Edwards will sort it all out, in a dramatic stage presentation in London, opening in 2022.

Tickets on sale now!
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6639 on: November 29, 2021, 04:48:25 PM »
Here's one random thought on diatoms.

Ingrams find the money. Sand covered.
I would think the first thing they do is rinse it off in the available Columbia River water.

Was there no diatoms then? If so, does it mean that diatoms don't "attach" with a quick rinse in the Columbia?

Just wondering. We know Ingrams rinsed with water back home (some bundles? All bundles?). That didn't remove diatoms? or only some?
That's an experiment: does rinsing with city water remove diatoms (hopefully not add! :) )

So if we have diatoms disappearing thru city water rinse, or not attaching with quick dip in the Columbia...how can we say anything about what diatoms may or may not have been on the bills Tom has?

I mean, I know I'm stupid (read it on the DBC Forum)..so please explain why any of TK's data means anything definite other than
"Shit happens".

??
(while I munch on some grapes..i.e. grapes of wrath)
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 05:18:24 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6640 on: November 29, 2021, 07:26:18 PM »
I won't pretend to know anything about rubber band composition (rubber and sulphur?), but from what I have read, the two biggest enemies of rubber bands are light and oxygen. Any rubber bands that are protected from sunlight in a minimally oxygenated environment (like buried in sand?) would last longer.

From my memory, some of the rubber bands in Tom's experiment were placed under an inch of sand. I would think this would still allow for oxygen to permeate. What about several inches beneath packed sand?

Lastly, regarding the diatoms, my understanding is that Tom DID find a diatom on the interior of the bill which indicates that the bills were fully fanned and exposed to water.
“Completely unhinged”
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6641 on: November 29, 2021, 09:16:55 PM »
Dunking the bills to get the sand off makes sense, but Brian found the money in February, and TK said at CC21 that he did not find any wintertime diatoms.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6642 on: November 29, 2021, 11:24:34 PM »
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I won't pretend to know anything about rubber band composition (rubber and sulphur?), but from what I have read, the two biggest enemies of rubber bands are light and oxygen. Any rubber bands that are protected from sunlight in a minimally oxygenated environment (like buried in sand?) would last longer.

From my memory, some of the rubber bands in Tom's experiment were placed under an inch of sand. I would think this would still allow for oxygen to permeate. What about several inches beneath packed sand?

Lastly, regarding the diatoms, my understanding is that Tom DID find a diatom on the interior of the bill which indicates that the bills were fully fanned and exposed to water.

3 bundler were found.
12 bundles were the physical state when the FBI got them initially and displayed them? (per the well known table top photo)

So if you're talking about "interior" of a bill, are you talking about bills that were inside those 12 bundles?
tops and bottoms woudl behavior differently

What was the serial on which diatoms were found? Is it a top bill in that group of 12 bundles?
I'll have to look
EDIT: 36246726A 1969 seems to be the main bill analyzed at You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
but what serials were analyzed for diatoms? some other bill or set?

« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 11:27:36 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6643 on: November 29, 2021, 11:35:49 PM »
serial number from the nature article (there is only one)
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E61102414A which is known to be E61102414A 1963A

I'm blown away by how people seem to forget that Tom only analyzed one true Cooper bill.

For direct comparison, a diatom survey for genera and abundance were conducted on a single Cooper bill and two modern bills that were submerged in the Columbia River in March and November.

A single original Cooper bill owned by Brian Ingram was sampled for analysis.


In the article, apparently Tom Kaye "guessed" about top of stack info...he uses his own data/postulations to state a bill was from the middle of stack.
This seems a little weird to me.

Tom seems to make up his own data here, from hypothesis? he says "Figure 2C indicates conclusively that the examined bill is from the middle of the stack by finding an intact Fragilaria sandwiched between two bills."


If the Cooper bill used in this examination was from the top of the stack, then one could expect to find a variety of diatoms from all sources. Figure 2C indicates conclusively that the examined bill is from the middle of the stack by finding an intact Fragilaria sandwiched between two bills. Due to the congealed nature of the bills, it was not uncommon to find intact fragments of other bills adhered to the larger bill
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 11:40:04 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6644 on: November 29, 2021, 11:38:29 PM »
According to Flyjack (I love how he thinks I'm a scorpion or some other lower form of life)...when we're just talking about numbers and photos. :)

These are the top bills of the 12 bundles. No way of knowing what were bottom bills. (another 12)

E06379503* 1963A TBAR TOP BILL OF 12 FRAGMENT
H27412938A 1963A TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
I02442844A 1969 TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
I02591811A 1969 TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L09781412A 1969 TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L20452751A 1969 TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L20848242A 1969 TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L30706882B 1963A TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L35399523B 1963A TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L53307222A 1969 TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L55376548B 1963A TBAR TOP BILL OF 12
L55479078B 1963A TBAR TOP BILL OF 12