Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 615436 times)

Offline JAG

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6600 on: September 15, 2021, 11:47:05 PM »
Thanks guys, been looking at the picture of the bill/brick on and off throughout the day. The bottom edge of the bill under the serial number is clearly defined and can observe a jagged edge with some flaps and even a notch, but the top of the brick is harder to make out.  Not sure if it has something to do with the black and white nature of the picture, but it does almost look like possible blunt force impact on the top, the word trauma comes to mind...but definitely untrained eye observations.

So I started to look up money damage, and I came across the Mutilated Currency Division.  You probably know of this agency already, but their job is to take damaged money, identify it and reimburse people if certain criteria are met.  Anyway, they discuss different types of damage.

Here are two quick video links:

1)

The most interesting part of this short video starts at the one minute mark where the employee discusses the most difficult cases which he says are when "when money gets wet and sits for a while.....the money becomes petrified".  So not necessarily earth shattering, but to hear the word petrified hit home based on the conversations we have been having about whether the bundolas could make it through the dredge or not intact etc.

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This second video is a cbs news story on basically the same Mutilated Currency Division.  At the 2 minute mark, there is an example of brick of money that got wet and sat for a while.  For me, this was helpful to see it kind of sealed/bonded together.  Now this example was apparently in a jar that was buried and the jar became compromised and bills got wet...and sat for a while.  They don't say how long however.  But the edges or form, if you will, are still kind of largely in tact as a rectangle.  Contrasting with Coop's money, we have that rounding, the bricks almost look like the shape of an oval or cucumber or hot dog bun.  So we have an example in the video of a congealed/petrified brick of money, we have Coop's money petrified, perhaps similarly...but the difference is the integrity of the original shape.  The brick in the video was inside a jar...where was or what happened to Coops brick to cause the cucumber shape ?  Maybe it was the dredge forces...I know TK did work where he indicated bacteria may be responsible for some of the holes in top of the bills, I don't think he talked much about or linked the bacterial colony to the deterioration of the edges or shape of the brick...but I will go back and reread his work now.

Anyway, if your bored and haven't seen the above links before, have a look...
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 11:51:30 PM by JAG »
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6601 on: September 16, 2021, 01:04:00 AM »
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Thanks guys, been looking at the picture of the bill/brick on and off throughout the day. The bottom edge of the bill under the serial number is clearly defined and can observe a jagged edge with some flaps and even a notch, but the top of the brick is harder to make out.  Not sure if it has something to do with the black and white nature of the picture, but it does almost look like possible blunt force impact on the top, the word trauma comes to mind...but definitely untrained eye observations.

So I started to look up money damage, and I came across the Mutilated Currency Division.  You probably know of this agency already, but their job is to take damaged money, identify it and reimburse people if certain criteria are met.  Anyway, they discuss different types of damage.

Here are two quick video links:

1)

The most interesting part of this short video starts at the one minute mark where the employee discusses the most difficult cases which he says are when "when money gets wet and sits for a while.....the money becomes petrified".  So not necessarily earth shattering, but to hear the word petrified hit home based on the conversations we have been having about whether the bundolas could make it through the dredge or not intact etc.

2) You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

This second video is a cbs news story on basically the same Mutilated Currency Division.  At the 2 minute mark, there is an example of brick of money that got wet and sat for a while.  For me, this was helpful to see it kind of sealed/bonded together.  Now this example was apparently in a jar that was buried and the jar became compromised and bills got wet...and sat for a while.  They don't say how long however.  But the edges or form, if you will, are still kind of largely in tact as a rectangle.  Contrasting with Coop's money, we have that rounding, the bricks almost look like the shape of an oval or cucumber or hot dog bun.  So we have an example in the video of a congealed/petrified brick of money, we have Coop's money petrified, perhaps similarly...but the difference is the integrity of the original shape.  The brick in the video was inside a jar...where was or what happened to Coops brick to cause the cucumber shape ?  Maybe it was the dredge forces...I know TK did work where he indicated bacteria may be responsible for some of the holes in top of the bills, I don't think he talked much about or linked the bacterial colony to the deterioration of the edges or shape of the brick...but I will go back and reread his work now.

Anyway, if your bored and haven't seen the above links before, have a look...

Nice vid - thanks. Yes, we contacted the Mutilated Currency Division Forensic Lab. But they were too busy to fit examining Cooper bills into their schedule. These people have seen it all!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 01:12:22 AM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6602 on: September 16, 2021, 12:54:30 PM »
A thought experiment

Everyone who says "going through dredge" is too destructive, too violent.

Think about this:

Money going down a stream in flood conditions, is pretty damn turbulent? And for a longer time than dredge passage.

So if people thought that was fine, why would going thru a dredge be not fine?
Surely a dredge is less violent?
 
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Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6603 on: September 16, 2021, 02:52:47 PM »
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A thought experiment

Everyone who says "going through dredge" is too destructive, too violent.

Think about this:

Money going down a stream in flood conditions, is pretty damn turbulent? And for a longer time than dredge passage.

So if people thought that was fine, why would going thru a dredge be not fine?
Surely a dredge is less violent?

I have three problems with the dredging theory. (a) the money almost has to be protected by the bag, (b) the issue of unprotected bundles passing through the dredge undestroyed, is almost inconceivable - its a question of probabilities. (c) how does the money or money bag wind up part of the bottom sediments, in this area in the first place? Keep in mind the dredging occurred in the shipping channel, not along the edges of the river or the wingdams.

The problem with the money at Tena Bar is there is no direct association between Tena Bar and the other known 'facts' in the Cooper case. Not unless you change those facts; which of course is what some people are trying to do.

Guy goes missing in Antarctica and his body is found on a beach at Portland OR USA!  How!?  That's almost where the money story is at.  :-\
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 02:55:26 PM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6604 on: September 16, 2021, 03:10:26 PM »
well, the idea of where cooper jumped isn't really a 'fact'
it's a prediction based on connecting together some other indirect info, and some experiments.

A photo and timestamp of Cooper jumping would be a fact.
all we have is a prediction.

Something could be wrong with that prediction.

 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6605 on: September 16, 2021, 03:28:46 PM »
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well, the idea of where cooper jumped isn't really a 'fact'
it's a prediction based on connecting together some other indirect info, and some experiments.

A photo and timestamp of Cooper jumping would be a fact.
all we have is a prediction.

Something could be wrong with that prediction.

Thats right - fact vs prediction. However radar data supported the prediction. Other facts supported that prediction. And the 'prediction' was reviewed many times ...

I understand why people are asking for a direct-causal connection between the money find location and the flight path. Should we call that the 'drop & plop' theory?
I mean guy is shot and body drops and plops. Likewise money from an airliner passing overhead. It's like the MacDonalds "bundle": burger and fries for $3.00. Simple until inflation raises it to $7.00!

 ;)   Its too easy in this case. The Cooper case is complex, requires lots of moving parts and pieces. Nothing simple. Cooper here one minute, there the next minute, until money is finally discovered at Tena Bar. Maybe people should be looking for more money along the Rio Grande ... with a corresponding change in the flight path also, of course! If you build it they will come ? Until gas goes to $6.00 a gallon that is. Likewise the Cooper case follows a cost-load function.

I wonder how Soderlin handled the money find? What was HIS theory! ? Anyone know ?   

You can get the Getty large size image of Paul Soderlin for only $499.00. What a deal!
« Last Edit: September 16, 2021, 04:29:54 PM by georger »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6606 on: September 16, 2021, 07:04:36 PM »
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well, the idea of where cooper jumped isn't really a 'fact'
it's a prediction based on connecting together some other indirect info, and some experiments.

A photo and timestamp of Cooper jumping would be a fact.
all we have is a prediction.

Something could be wrong with that prediction.

Thats right - fact vs prediction. However radar data supported the prediction. Other facts supported that prediction. And the 'prediction' was reviewed many times ...

I understand why people are asking for a direct-causal connection between the money find location and the flight path. Should we call that the 'drop & plop' theory?
I mean guy is shot and body drops and plops. Likewise money from an airliner passing overhead. It's like the MacDonalds "bundle": burger and fries for $3.00. Simple until inflation raises it to $7.00!

 ;)   Its too easy in this case. The Cooper case is complex, requires lots of moving parts and pieces. Nothing simple. Cooper here one minute, there the next minute, until money is finally discovered at Tena Bar. Maybe people should be looking for more money along the Rio Grande ... with a corresponding change in the flight path also, of course! If you build it they will come ? Until gas goes to $6.00 a gallon that is. Likewise the Cooper case follows a cost-load function.

I wonder how Soderlin handled the money find? What was HIS theory! ? Anyone know ?   

You can get the Getty large size image of Paul Soderlin for only $499.00. What a deal!
I think it's also possible that that "prediction" was based on incorrect "facts" such as confusing "oscillations" with "pressure bump".

Also, this case lacks any semblance of precision. The flight path has an 8 mile margin of error, the jump time has a certiain margin of error, etc. It's Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle applied to a criminal case.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6607 on: September 17, 2021, 03:02:01 AM »
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I think it's also possible that that "prediction" was based on incorrect "facts" such as confusing "oscillations" with "pressure bump".

Also, this case lacks any semblance of precision. The flight path has an 8 mile margin of error, the jump time has a certiain margin of error, etc. It's Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle applied to a criminal case.

Chaucer, "oscillations" and "pressure bumps" are two separate things and easily identifiable as such.  And the Cooper case is not as imprecise as you believe.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6608 on: September 17, 2021, 03:57:45 PM »
Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? Isn't that the quantum physics theory that says you can't determine the position and movement of a sub-atomic particle at the same time? I like it as a metaphor for DBC. We kinda know the movement of Flight 305 - Fly Me to Mexico! - but position/location is tricky.

BTW: Victor-23 is 8 nautical miles wide, which is 9.2 statute miles, or in lay-person speak: "regular miles."
 

Offline georger

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6609 on: September 17, 2021, 04:09:11 PM »
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Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? Isn't that the quantum physics theory that says you can't determine the position and movement of a sub-atomic particle at the same time? I like it as a metaphor for DBC. We kinda know the movement of Flight 305 - Fly Me to Mexico! - but position/location is tricky.

BTW: Victor-23 is 8 nautical miles wide, which is 9.2 statute miles, or in lay-person speak: "regular miles."

Airplanes and people are NOT sub atomic particles!  That should be self-evident. Old fashioned Newtonian mechanics applies in this hijacking case.

There may be DB Cooper news developing. From a group of experienced specialists now discussing the case privately - Stay tuned. 
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6610 on: September 18, 2021, 12:50:01 AM »
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“oscillations" and "pressure bumps" are two separate things and easily identifiable as such
Yes, Bob. That is what I said.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6611 on: September 18, 2021, 02:25:53 AM »
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“oscillations" and "pressure bumps" are two separate things and easily identifiable as such
Yes, Bob. That is what I said.
And what I said is that no one is going to confuse a pressure bump with an oscillation.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6612 on: September 18, 2021, 03:44:05 AM »
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Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? Isn't that the quantum physics theory that says you can't determine the position and movement of a sub-atomic particle at the same time? I like it as a metaphor for DBC. We kinda know the movement of Flight 305 - Fly Me to Mexico! - but position/location is tricky.


Airplanes and people are NOT sub atomic particles!  That should be self-evident. Old fashioned Newtonian mechanics applies in this hijacking case....


Well, then how do you explain Loki and his getaway, eh? "Greatest Escape Ever" in the history of the TVA.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6613 on: September 18, 2021, 04:13:05 PM »
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“oscillations" and "pressure bumps" are two separate things and easily identifiable as such
Yes, Bob. That is what I said.
And what I said is that no one is going to confuse a pressure bump with an oscillation.
If you read the 302s, the FBI repeatedly conflate the two as well as multiple “expert” Cooper researchers.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6614 on: September 18, 2021, 04:33:15 PM »
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“oscillations" and "pressure bumps" are two separate things and easily identifiable as such
Yes, Bob. That is what I said.
And what I said is that no one is going to confuse a pressure bump with an oscillation.
If you read the 302s, the FBI repeatedly conflate the two as well as multiple “expert” Cooper researchers.

Anyone who conflated the two was not an "expert".  And the FBI was only quoting the "experts".

Further, in my always humble opinion, the FBI was ill-served by some of the "experts" in the early days of the Cooper investigation.  Or to put it another way, there are "experts" [just ask them] and then there are people who actually know what they are talking about.  Unfortunately, the FBI relied on the former group and here we are today.