Poll

How did the money arrive on Tena Bar

River Flooding
1 (5%)
Floated to it's resting spot via Columbia river
2 (10%)
Planted
6 (30%)
Dredge
11 (55%)
tossed in the river in a paper bag
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Voting closed: August 16, 2016, 09:05:28 AM

Author Topic: Tena Bar Money Find  (Read 751689 times)

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6645 on: November 29, 2021, 11:45:18 PM »
Tom says E61102414A was owned by Brian Ingram?

how come 377's bill wasn't analyzed? or was it and not mentioned in the Nature article?

Is 377's bill the one on You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
36246726A 1969
?
Was that bill checked for diatoms?

EDIT:
I'm thinking the first bill shown on the citizen's sleuth site early on, was from the FBI
and the diatom bill (just one bill) is from 377
Is that correct?

Still strikes me as weird, all the extrapolation about diatoms, with only a single Cooper bill as evidence.
Sure some modern bills were used as an experiment, but that's just an experiment. Doesn't prove much.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2021, 11:52:44 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6646 on: November 29, 2021, 11:49:22 PM »
Wait a second.
The bill used in TK's Nature article
E61102414A 1963A

was the bill auctioned in 2011
I had previously posted on this as follows:

This bill was the $20 auctioned at Cooper Symposium 2011
it is PCGS certified. It is not visible at Heritage Auctions since it was never auctioned by them.
it is on Flyjack's list of Tena Bar bills.

good example of a serial (bill) that is not widely visible publicly. The attached picture shows how it is good condition. no apparent interior holes.
Who won this auction?
E61102414A 1963A 161 16 E

picture was apparently taken by Bruce
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

I attached the picture Bruce took of it at the forum (described in the above article)
Was this the bill 377 got?
if so was the other bill Tom originally analyzed, from the FBI??

Did TK describe ownership of the bill incorrectly? It wasn't owned by Brian anymore, it was owned by 377?

Hmm. the plot thickens...Where/What/Who/When...etc
TK never really analyzed the path of that bill from Tena Bar to his hands.
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6647 on: November 29, 2021, 11:50:38 PM »
What I love about the above, is it proves the worth of the dogged journalist (Bruce) documenting everything.

one never knows when some captured photo or interview, might be interesting in the unknown future.
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6648 on: November 29, 2021, 11:55:31 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Dunking the bills to get the sand off makes sense, but Brian found the money in February, and TK said at CC21 that he did not find any wintertime diatoms.

You don't lead with saying Tom's theories are reality.
You  lead with the reality and then see if any theories match it.

If my theory about rinsing is correct, then maybe that's something to think about..i.e. it would fly in the face of some of Tom Kaye's suggestions/experiments about diatom attachment.

If the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit.
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6649 on: November 30, 2021, 12:02:07 AM »
In the Nature article
Tom Kaye writes this
"A single original Cooper bill owned by Brian Ingram was sampled for analysis. "


Why would he say it was owned by Brian Ingram? when it was probably owned by 377 (one of the authors of the paper)

I got confused..because I was wondering "Why did Brian give a bill to Tom? Did this supposed bill have some kind of different storage than any other bill?"

so the path of the bill was Tena Bar -> Ingram -> FBI -> back to Ingram -> PCGS analysis/encapsulation -> Back to Brian -> donation by Brian for auction -> 377-> Tom Kaye analysis ??

Is that correct?

A cooper nut can count the # of locations, and # of hands.

Another interesting point: My recollection is that  the found bills were wet, and stored in a plastic bread bag when transported back home by the Ingrams.
Is that recollection correct?
The water they were wet from: What was it, and what was it's diatom contribution?
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 12:07:03 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6650 on: November 30, 2021, 12:06:56 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
back to evidence and away from Cooper Duper Bongophelia!

1. 'and the rubber bands fell off (in pieces) and turned to dust ... when touched'.  Hmmm. None of Kaye's experiments-results reflect that condition. Lets stay low-tech for the suspect hunter mentality here. Rubber band chemistry is well documented but shunned by Cooperites.  None of Kaye's experiments-results reflect the band condition the Ingrams described or found..  Hmmm. I wonder why.  ;)   Kaye's experiment stopped at 234 days. It had been 2920 days since the hijacking when the money was suddenly found in a place totally unrelated to any flight path claim. Hmmm. 234 vs 2920 days. Hmmm.  Where? At Tina Bar. Money was on the plane then 2920 days later its at a sandbar on the Columbia. Hmmm. I will just say:  'and the rubber bands fell off (in pieces) and turned to dust ... when touched' is 2920 days later. Hmmm. Must have been in Nature all along! Near the surface - exposed to UV. Hmmmmm. Nothing in TK's testing even approaches or duplicates the state the Ingrams said the rubber bands were in! Hmmm.

2. Tom examined four bills. His first three revealed no diatoms at all. Then finally a forth bill revealed diatoms ... but all within 1/8th to 1/4 inch of the edges of the bills. No toms centrally located on any bill. Is that what Tom is saying? That implies no fanning out of the bills in water! Hmmm. Side incursion only but only 1/8-1/4" in from the edges, on one bill only so far? Hmmm. ............  with this important evidence lets break and go back to regularly scheduled suspect-book writer programming. It makes my hayd hurt!  Yeppper.

 :rofl:

If no fanning out of bills occurred as suggested by areas of bills lacking any diatoms, then the money was probably never in open free-flowing water. The money never "flowed" to Tina Bar, but was conveyed there by some other means which could include the dredging. Tom's edge-wise evidence suggests the money picked up diatoms (was exposed to diatoms) while in-situ at Tina Bar and not before. And not being fanned out in open water. Fanning out vs not fanning out, becomes crucial. 
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 12:08:23 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4361
  • Thanked: 459 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6651 on: November 30, 2021, 12:36:13 AM »
Yes, 377 bought the bill at the auction held at the Cooper Conference in 2011. Ironically, Tom Kaye was the auctioneer! Brian was in the audience and presented the bill - mounted - to 377. That is 377's thumb in the pix.
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6652 on: November 30, 2021, 12:41:01 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Yes, 377 bought the bill at the auction held at the Cooper Conference in 2011. Ironically, Tom Kaye was the auctioneer! Brian was in the audience and presented the bill - mounted - to 377. That is 377's thumb in the pix.

So, why was the lineage of the bill shortened down to just "owned by Brian Ingram" in the Nature article?
A scientific paper, with a simple issue, saying something that's not true?
Very similar to Cossey saying the parachutes came from his house.
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6653 on: November 30, 2021, 12:46:12 AM »
Since PCGS handlers handled the bill analyzed by Tom Kaye, do we have any detail on how they separated the bills.
since the bills were "stuck" together, I'm wondering if only mechanical separation was used, or any solvents? Was any water used? It's unlikely diatoms were added, but could diatoms have been removed? Is this part of the reason the Nature article doesn't fully reveal the lineage of the bill analyzed?



« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 12:47:32 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline JAG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 143
  • Thanked: 51 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6654 on: November 30, 2021, 01:27:48 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
back to evidence and away from Cooper Duper Bongophelia!

1. 'and the rubber bands fell off (in pieces) and turned to dust ... when touched'.  Hmmm. None of Kaye's experiments-results reflect that condition. Lets stay low-tech for the suspect hunter mentality here. Rubber band chemistry is well documented but shunned by Cooperites.  None of Kaye's experiments-results reflect the band condition the Ingrams described or found..  Hmmm. I wonder why.  ;)   Kaye's experiment stopped at 234 days. It had been 2920 days since the hijacking when the money was suddenly found in a place totally unrelated to any flight path claim. Hmmm. 234 vs 2920 days. Hmmm.  Where? At Tina Bar. Money was on the plane then 2920 days later its at a sandbar on the Columbia. Hmmm. I will just say:  'and the rubber bands fell off (in pieces) and turned to dust ... when touched' is 2920 days later. Hmmm. Must have been in Nature all along! Near the surface - exposed to UV. Hmmmmm. Nothing in TK's testing even approaches or duplicates the state the Ingrams said the rubber bands were in! Hmmm.

2. Tom examined four bills. His first three revealed no diatoms at all. Then finally a forth bill revealed diatoms ... but all within 1/8th to 1/4 inch of the edges of the bills. No toms centrally located on any bill. Is that what Tom is saying? That implies no fanning out of the bills in water! Hmmm. Side incursion only but only 1/8-1/4" in from the edges, on one bill only so far? Hmmm. ............  with this important evidence lets break and go back to regularly scheduled suspect-book writer programming. It makes my hayd hurt!  Yeppper.

 :rofl:

If no fanning out of bills occurred as suggested by areas of bills lacking any diatoms, then the money was probably never in open free-flowing water. The money never "flowed" to Tina Bar, but was conveyed there by some other means which could include the dredging. Tom's edge-wise evidence suggests the money picked up diatoms (was exposed to diatoms) while in-situ at Tina Bar and not before. And not being fanned out in open water. Fanning out vs not fanning out, becomes crucial.

This is not a knock on TK, but I always have to read his work multiple times to make sure I understand what he is trying to say  :)

But in his most recent peer reviewed article regarding the diatom findings, (You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login),  he seems to be saying that he believes that the Cooper money fanned out during river immersion, to what degree I am not entirely certain.  Basically, he states that:

- the Cooper bill he examined is from the middle of the stack as it has a piece of another bill smooshed together with a Fragilaria diatom sandwiched between the bills. 
- in addition, that the Fragilaria  and the Asterionella diatoms are not sand based species, they are planktonic i.e. they float in the river water and are too big to survive in the sand, and thus must have only been able to attach to the Copper bill during river immersion while the bills were fanned.

The other question I have is, it appears that only the edges were sampled, does that mean that there are no diatoms toward the interior of the bills ?  Was there a different way that he ruled out the presence of diatoms toward the interior of the bill without taking a sample from the interior ?

 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6655 on: November 30, 2021, 01:45:54 PM »
break down the TK work into analyzing the actual single Cooper bill, and the experiments with modern money.

They should be described independently.
Then it can be judged if any of the extracted data implies anything about the other set. Because that is highly dependent on lots of other information (Understanding of Columba water, etc, understanding of where the bills came from, etc)

Right now it's all jumbled up and too easy to think it's all one experiment/data extraction.
It's two data extractions (cooper bill/not cooper bills) and then lots of theory about how the information can be combined.

This way you can separate TK's data presentations, from his theories on what the data implies.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 01:48:10 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline 377

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1588
  • Thanked: 434 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6656 on: November 30, 2021, 02:03:29 PM »
It was indeed my bill. Bought it at auction at first DB Cooper Symposium in Portland. No extra charge for removing the Winter diatoms. 😉

377
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6657 on: November 30, 2021, 02:27:18 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
It was indeed my bill. Bought it at auction at first DB Cooper Symposium in Portland. No extra charge for removing the Winter diatoms. 😉

377

it's just depressing that there's a long-standing tradition of trying to imply high-science by the high-scientists, by leaving out information that might cause the reader to wonder.

If you're going to analyze a bill, and be a scientist, TK should have documented it's history, and described why the history still allowed good science.
Saying it's history is not what it is...i.e "owned by Ingram", implies that the chain of evidence was shorter than it really was..i.e. that it was first-hand with Brian.

The chain on all the bills is long.

Heck, we know some bills were treated with silver nitrate even!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 02:28:52 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Thanked: 173 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6658 on: November 30, 2021, 02:31:38 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
- the Cooper bill he examined is from the middle of the stack as it has a piece of another bill smooshed together with a Fragilaria diatom sandwiched between the bills.   


SEE THIS IS THE BULLSHIT THAT RESULTS FROM MIXING THEORY WITH DATA in an obtuse fashion.

There is NO DATA that says that the cooper bill was from the middle of a stack.
That is conjecture by TK based on his theories.

The only data on bill placement we have is from the 12 bundle FBI photo.
So all we know is that 12 bills were on the top of those bundles and their serials.

WE KNOW NOTHING ELSE.
Everything else is conjecture/theory.

Now it's reasonable to conjecture based on the whiteness of the bills I believe, but you would need some science comparing the photos of all known bills.
TK did not do that.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 02:32:52 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3182
  • Thanked: 467 times
Re: Tena Bar Money Find
« Reply #6659 on: November 30, 2021, 11:36:46 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
- the Cooper bill he examined is from the middle of the stack as it has a piece of another bill smooshed together with a Fragilaria diatom sandwiched between the bills.   


SEE THIS IS THE BULLSHIT THAT RESULTS FROM MIXING THEORY WITH DATA in an obtuse fashion.

There is NO DATA that says that the cooper bill was from the middle of a stack.
That is conjecture by TK based on his theories.

The only data on bill placement we have is from the 12 bundle FBI photo.
So all we know is that 12 bills were on the top of those bundles and their serials.

WE KNOW NOTHING ELSE.
Everything else is conjecture/theory.

Now it's reasonable to conjecture based on the whiteness of the bills I believe, but you would need some science comparing the photos of all known bills.
TK did not do that.

still no fanning out .... no diatoms interior on any bills ? no fanning out constricts the options for packaging and conveyance.  ;)
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 11:37:41 PM by georger »