Author Topic: The Cooper Vortex Podcast  (Read 33999 times)

Online Chaucer

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #255 on: October 08, 2021, 12:58:25 AM »
This is good info. Thanks. I’ll look forward to sideman chiming in.
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #256 on: October 08, 2021, 08:03:37 AM »
DUDEMAN - f'n autocorrect...
 

Offline 377

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #257 on: October 09, 2021, 01:41:37 PM »
R99 wrote: “ If his parachute was an NB-6, which has been claimed but is probably not true, then it definitely did not have those cutters. ”

Do you mean to say 26 ft Navy Conical? NB6 just refers to the harness and container not the canopy.

My first reserve ride was on a 26 ft Navy Conical that had been modified by a civilian rigger to be steerable. It had a single T steering vent and steering toggles installed   The two surplus Navy Conicals I’ve seen in “as released condition” did not have 4 line releases. I’ve seen surplus C9 canopies as released from the govt both with and without 4 line releases.

377

« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 01:58:05 PM by 377 »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #258 on: October 09, 2021, 02:15:50 PM »
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R99 wrote: “ If his parachute was an NB-6, which has been claimed but is probably not true, then it definitely did not have those cutters. ”

Do you mean to say 26 ft Navy Conical? NB6 just refers to the harness and container not the canopy.

My first reserve ride was on a 26 ft Navy Conical that had been modified by a civilian rigger to be steerable. It had a single T steering vent and steering toggles installed   The two surplus Navy Conicals I’ve seen in “as released condition” did not have 4 line releases. I’ve seen surplus C9 canopies as released from the govt both with and without 4 line releases.

377

Correct.  I owned an NB-6 with a 26 foot Navy Conical canopy for several years and used it as an emergency parachute in an aircraft with a very cramped cockpit.  I sold it just a couple of months before the Cooper hijacking.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #259 on: October 09, 2021, 08:20:39 PM »
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The military chute he used was a four line release, correct? Essentially, after you deployed, you pulled the lines from the canopy, grabbed those lines and wrapped them around your hands and those become your steering. You pull down on the left or the right and it pulls the canopy down and distorts it so it turns in that direction. It wasn't a perfectly efficient system and it was standard practice to turn into the wind so you wouldn’t be running with the wing when you landed.

So you have to assume he was able to release those lines, wrap them around his hands in very cold temperatures with no glove on, and turn into the wind. All at night in 40 degree weather. In your opinion, wouldn't his hands have hurt from the cold and made it difficult for him to hang on to his steering toggles?

Secondly, you say that the weather, the night jump, the unfamiliar rig would not pose a significant risk to his life. Would that be dependent on his skill level? Suppose he's a complete whuffo? Or someone with a handful of jumps?

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I don't think there is anything known as a "four line release" parachute canopy.


Indeed there is a four line release mod on some round reserves. I don't think Cooper's chute had it though. I think he just had a no-mod, non-steerable, don't-bounce round. 377 would more accurately know. On the four line release, after you open there are tabs or pieces of line on the risers that you pull that release the four rear-most lines of the canopy. That allows the back of it to rise up into a bubble like configuration. That allows air to escape out the back, creating some forward drive. The next outward lines have toggles attached for steering. Sure it's preferable to land into the wind if you can tell what direction that is, but I think whatever control he might have had would be best served to avoid obstacles and get into a decent landing area. Robert, I've never heard of that four line setup you described. That must be old old school military. That apex hole at the top of a round is what reduces oscillations.

Yes, cold hands are a bitch and they hurt. But hopefully if you put yourself in a situation like that you have the focus to differentiate the nice from the necessary. Warm comfy hands are nice. Exerting whatever control you might have over a parachute is necessary. And we don't know that he didn't have gloves. He could have had some in that other bag or in his pockets.

Obviously having some experience would help him. But I don't think a lack of it is a huge threat to him. You get off the plane, you pull the ripcord, you land somewhere. Again I would cite Andrade's research, and the subsequent similar skyjack jumps.
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #260 on: October 09, 2021, 08:36:57 PM »
Thanks, Dudeman. Appreciate the info and insight.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #261 on: October 10, 2021, 12:51:50 AM »
Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #262 on: October 10, 2021, 01:33:22 AM »
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The military chute he used was a four line release, correct? Essentially, after you deployed, you pulled the lines from the canopy, grabbed those lines and wrapped them around your hands and those become your steering. You pull down on the left or the right and it pulls the canopy down and distorts it so it turns in that direction. It wasn't a perfectly efficient system and it was standard practice to turn into the wind so you wouldn’t be running with the wing when you landed.

So you have to assume he was able to release those lines, wrap them around his hands in very cold temperatures with no glove on, and turn into the wind. All at night in 40 degree weather. In your opinion, wouldn't his hands have hurt from the cold and made it difficult for him to hang on to his steering toggles?

Secondly, you say that the weather, the night jump, the unfamiliar rig would not pose a significant risk to his life. Would that be dependent on his skill level? Suppose he's a complete whuffo? Or someone with a handful of jumps?

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I don't think there is anything known as a "four line release" parachute canopy.


Indeed there is a four line release mod on some round reserves. I don't think Cooper's chute had it though. I think he just had a no-mod, non-steerable, don't-bounce round. 377 would more accurately know. On the four line release, after you open there are tabs or pieces of line on the risers that you pull that release the four rear-most lines of the canopy. That allows the back of it to rise up into a bubble like configuration. That allows air to escape out the back, creating some forward drive. The next outward lines have toggles attached for steering. Sure it's preferable to land into the wind if you can tell what direction that is, but I think whatever control he might have had would be best served to avoid obstacles and get into a decent landing area. Robert, I've never heard of that four line setup you described. That must be old old school military. That apex hole at the top of a round is what reduces oscillations.

Yes, cold hands are a bitch and they hurt. But hopefully if you put yourself in a situation like that you have the focus to differentiate the nice from the necessary. Warm comfy hands are nice. Exerting whatever control you might have over a parachute is necessary. And we don't know that he didn't have gloves. He could have had some in that other bag or in his pockets.

Obviously having some experience would help him. But I don't think a lack of it is a huge threat to him. You get off the plane, you pull the ripcord, you land somewhere. Again I would cite Andrade's research, and the subsequent similar skyjack jumps.

Dudeman, take a look at 377's posts above.  The "four-line release" canopies had a "shroud line cutter" in a pocket on one of the risers.  It also had a lanyard tied to it so the parachutist would not lose it.  This cutter was a "J" hook-shaped device so that the appropriate shroud lines could be cut by a pulling action.  These things existed about 50 years ago and I don't know if they still do today or not.

The vent at the top of the canopy does reduce the oscillations but somewhere along the way, the military added the four-line release.
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #263 on: October 10, 2021, 03:35:59 AM »
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Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???
So, then what chutes/rigs/canopies did Cooper jump with, oh esteemed Bruce. A. Smith?
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #264 on: October 10, 2021, 07:43:54 AM »
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Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???
So, then what chutes/rigs/canopies did Cooper jump with, oh esteemed Bruce. A. Smith?
Well it sure is entertaining to come on here.  You are like the beach bully that just kicked sand in the face of the poor yuppies lying on their blanket.  Cooper pulled the damn cord, jumped between 8:11 and 8:15 and its my hope he is reading all of this and laughing. Of course while drinking his bourbon.  Maybe straight by now.
 

Offline 377

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #265 on: October 10, 2021, 11:43:10 AM »
Even if there was a 4 line release on Cooper’s canopy I doubt if he could have used it. Not enough light.

What really matters is not the canopy type or 4 line release or extended container flaps or Capewells or sport or military gear. The outcome determinative component is the ripcord handle. If you don’t pull it, nothing else matters.

If Cooper pulled, I think he landed alive.

377
 
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Offline 377

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #266 on: October 10, 2021, 11:48:53 AM »
Bruce wrote:
“Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???”

I jumped only military surplus gear for the first few years of my skydiving career. C9 main, Navy Conical reserve on the rig I owned. Jumped rental surplus rigs before I bought. I recall seeing both Pioneer and Steinhal names on the data panels of various surplus canopies.

377
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 11:50:01 AM by 377 »
 
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Online snowmman

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #267 on: October 10, 2021, 01:35:31 PM »
Was thinking about how relieved Cooper must have felt, when he finally got on the aft stairs with a rig on his back, and money on his front.

first time in hours, things might have felt like it was all under his control.

In fact, thinking about him asking for the notes and matchbook back and not leaving briefcase etc on the plane, he seemed pretty confident that he was going to survive and wanted to make sure he wouldn't be caught.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #268 on: October 10, 2021, 07:03:34 PM »
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Dudeman, take a look at 377's posts above.  The "four-line release" canopies had a "shroud line cutter" in a pocket on one of the risers.  It also had a lanyard tied to it so the parachutist would not lose it.  This cutter was a "J" hook-shaped device so that the appropriate shroud lines could be cut by a pulling action.  These things existed about 50 years ago and I don't know if they still do today or not.

The vent at the top of the canopy does reduce the oscillations but somewhere along the way, the military added the four-line release.


Robert, the four line system you describe is different in both design and intent from the one I (and I believe 377) am describing. The one I am referring to works in the manner I described, and it's intent is to give some drive and control. I had one and flew it a couple times. The one you describe is apparently intended to reduce oscillations. My initial guess is that it is an old design and likely precedes the apex hole.


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Even if there was a 4 line release on Cooper’s canopy I doubt if he could have used it. Not enough light.


I disagree with that. The thing is right above your head within arm's reach. Even at night one would be able to see and access it. The question would be if he was familiar with it (if indeed it was there).


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The outcome determinative component is the ripcord handle. If you don’t pull it, nothing else matters.

If Cooper pulled, I think he landed alive.


I agree with that 100%.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #269 on: October 10, 2021, 09:07:12 PM »
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Dudeman, take a look at 377's posts above.  The "four-line release" canopies had a "shroud line cutter" in a pocket on one of the risers.  It also had a lanyard tied to it so the parachutist would not lose it.  This cutter was a "J" hook-shaped device so that the appropriate shroud lines could be cut by a pulling action.  These things existed about 50 years ago and I don't know if they still do today or not.

The vent at the top of the canopy does reduce the oscillations but somewhere along the way, the military added the four-line release.


Robert, the four line system you describe is different in both design and intent from the one I (and I believe 377) am describing. The one I am referring to works in the manner I described, and it's intent is to give some drive and control. I had one and flew it a couple times. The one you describe is apparently intended to reduce oscillations. My initial guess is that it is an old design and likely precedes the apex hole.


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Even if there was a 4 line release on Cooper’s canopy I doubt if he could have used it. Not enough light.


I disagree with that. The thing is right above your head within arm's reach. Even at night one would be able to see and access it. The question would be if he was familiar with it (if indeed it was there).


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The outcome determinative component is the ripcord handle. If you don’t pull it, nothing else matters.

If Cooper pulled, I think he landed alive.


I agree with that 100%.

To the best of my knowledge, the hole in the canopy apex dates back to very close to the first fabric parachute.  Maybe back to the Montgolfier (sp.) balloon experimenting era.  Probably at least 150+ years in any event.

As I have mentioned before, the four-line release system that I am aware of existed about 1970.  And 377 apparently has seen such systems.

Did Cooper get an open canopy if he simply pulled the ripcord?  Not necessarily in my opinion.  There is absolutely no way that Cooper could avoid tumbling unless he pulled the ripcord while on the stairs and at 225 MPH that could have problems of its own.  If he did not pull while on the stairs, he would tumble in a complicated asymmetric manner with a good possibility that he could wrap himself up in the should lines or have some type of canopy inversion.  I have personally had a canopy inversion in much simpler circumstances.