Author Topic: The Cooper Vortex Podcast  (Read 34002 times)

Offline dudeman17

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #270 on: October 10, 2021, 09:56:43 PM »
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To the best of my knowledge, the hole in the canopy apex dates back to very close to the first fabric parachute.  Maybe back to the Montgolfier (sp.) balloon experimenting era.  Probably at least 150+ years in any event.

As I have mentioned before, the four-line release system that I am aware of existed about 1970.  And 377 apparently has seen such systems.


What you say about the apex hole is probably correct. I'm not doubting the veracity of the system you describe, I have just not seen it myself. The system I describe does exist, and was not at all uncommon. Like I said, I had one and used it. Back in the early 80's, I knew a guy who jumped one as a main because he liked to pull extremely low. Yeah, he would get yelled at and grounded, but he'd do it again.


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Did Cooper get an open canopy if he simply pulled the ripcord?  Not necessarily in my opinion.  There is absolutely no way that Cooper could avoid tumbling unless he pulled the ripcord while on the stairs and at 225 MPH that could have problems of its own.  If he did not pull while on the stairs, he would tumble in a complicated asymmetric manner with a good possibility that he could wrap himself up in the should lines or have some type of canopy inversion.  I have personally had a canopy inversion in much simpler circumstances.


I'm sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with much of that. I do agree that pulling on the stairs would be a horrible idea. I think the opening shock would snap the snot out of him, and the turbulence behind the plane might increase the possibility of a malfunction, and he could end up entangled with the airplane. (Static line jumpers do fall a bit behind and below the aircraft, reducing most of that threat.) Freefall stability is a matter of subtle body english, and like anything, some people take to it easier and quicker than others. Did he have any experience? Even experience at things like scuba diving or body surfing might help, since it is a somewhat similar fluid environment. But even if he's tumbling...  At the higher airspeeds of skydiving (as opposed to what I described elsewhere about lower base jumps), deployments are quick, definitive, and under a fair amount of tension. I've seen people throw hand deploy pilot chutes in extremely f'ed up body positions, and they get open. Ripcord activated, spring launched pilot chutes are even more reliable, I've seen people launch those in horrific tumbles/spins, and they get open. 377 describes his own experiences with his early freefall attempts. And like a broken record, I again, again cite Andrade's research. I think those statistics are about the best indicator, as they involve unexperienced people jumping similar rigs in high-stress situations, and they live. Sure, entanglements and malfunctions can occur, but they are the exception and not the rule.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #271 on: October 10, 2021, 11:03:27 PM »
one funny thing I noticed at the end of the clip I posted on youtube of the movie jump sequence in "The Pursuit of DB Cooper"

the jump where the videographer jumped first...apparently he landed on the ground first, so he got video of the "Cooper" jumper approaching ground, while the camera is on the ground.

the cameraman is  slightly behind a tree, pointing up at Cooper coming down...I'd swear it looks like the Cooper jumper lands in the tree. If so, I can't imagine that was by design :) It's a smallish tree, so probably not a big deal.

In terms of accuracy, it's interesting that the two jumpers would have been able to land so close to each other. Then again maybe that sequence was a third jump, maybe not even from the 727. 

Still, good accuracy with that vented round the Cooper jumper was using. (getting close to where the cameraman landed)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2021, 11:11:12 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #272 on: October 11, 2021, 05:03:41 AM »
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Bruce wrote:
“Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???”

I jumped only military surplus gear for the first few years of my skydiving career. C9 main, Navy Conical reserve on the rig I owned. Jumped rental surplus rigs before I bought. I recall seeing both Pioneer and Steinhal names on the data panels of various surplus canopies.

377

So the Steinthauls could have been C-9s?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #273 on: October 11, 2021, 05:05:50 AM »
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Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???
So, then what chutes/rigs/canopies did Cooper jump with, oh esteemed Bruce. A. Smith?

I say it wasn't an NB-6 or NB-8. What kinds of canopies did Steinthaul make?
 

Offline 377

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #274 on: October 11, 2021, 07:33:49 AM »
Correct spelling as I recall is Steinhal. That company made many types of military canopies as did Pioneer.

Steinhal and Pioneer also made sport canopies. Just knowing the mfr doesn’t tell you what kind of canopy. Pioneer made the Paracommander and Steinhal made the similar US Papillon.

Somewhere I read that Norman bought both canopies at a surplus store. My guess is that they were C9s. I haunted surplus stores as a kid, in many different cities, and never once saw a Navy Conical in their inventory. Saw a LOT of C9s.

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You’d think wild tumbling while deploying would likely cause a canopy malfunction. It never happened to me or any of my buddies. Between us we probably had a hundred unstable deployments. On one particularly scary student freefall jump my tumble/spin rotation rate was crazy high. Everything was a blur. I couldn’t stabilize and it was time to pull. I thought this is for sure going to be a disaster. I envisioned myself augering in wrapped tightly in suspension lines and canopy. Didn’t happen. Got a perfect opening. Thank God.

Dudeman have you seen the Korat Thailand 727 static line jumps? I’d have expected severe opening shocks but the videos show pretty gentle openings to my eye. The canopies “squid” which slows the opening. I think I’d have pulled off the stairs if I knew about those jumps. I do agree that an extended freefall at night with no clear horizon or azimuth reference and with an asymmetric external loaf would cause tumbling or at least a spin. Arching will normally stabilize you in pitch and roll but not yaw. You need a visual azimuth reference point to avoid a spin.

I was so damned scared deploying in wild tumbles. Terrified. But I had to pull as I ran out of altitude. I’m not religious but I was praying fervently as I pulled. I thought I’d never learn how to freefall stable, an opinion that was probably shared by my jumpmasters. Thank goodness I finally figured it out. It was such a rush. I was ecstatic, just crazy happy. I was now a real skydiver with a future in the sport.

377

« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 07:51:26 AM by 377 »
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #275 on: October 11, 2021, 12:50:38 PM »
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Correct spelling as I recall is Steinhal. That company made many types of military canopies as did Pioneer.

Steinhal and Pioneer also made sport canopies. Just knowing the mfr doesn’t tell you what kind of canopy. Pioneer made the Paracommander and Steinhal made the similar US Papillon.

Somewhere I read that Norman bought both canopies at a surplus store. My guess is that they were C9s. I haunted surplus stores as a kid, in many different cities, and never once saw a Navy Conical in their inventory. Saw a LOT of C9s.

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You’d think wild tumbling while deploying would likely cause a canopy malfunction. It never happened to me or any of my buddies. Between us we probably had a hundred unstable deployments. On one particularly scary student freefall jump my tumble/spin rotation rate was crazy high. Everything was a blur. I couldn’t stabilize and it was time to pull. I thought this is for sure going to be a disaster. I envisioned myself augering in wrapped tightly in suspension lines and canopy. Didn’t happen. Got a perfect opening. Thank God.

Dudeman have you seen the Korat Thailand 727 static line jumps? I’d have expected severe opening shocks but the videos show pretty gentle openings to my eye. The canopies “squid” which slows the opening. I think I’d have pulled off the stairs if I knew about those jumps. I do agree that an extended freefall at night with no clear horizon or azimuth reference and with an asymmetric external loaf would cause tumbling or at least a spin. Arching will normally stabilize you in pitch and roll but not yaw. You need a visual azimuth reference point to avoid a spin.

I was so damned scared deploying in wild tumbles. Terrified. But I had to pull as I ran out of altitude. I’m not religious but I was praying fervently as I pulled. I thought I’d never learn how to freefall stable, an opinion that was probably shared by my jumpmasters. Thank goodness I finally figured it out. It was such a rush. I was ecstatic, just crazy happy. I was now a real skydiver with a future in the sport.

377

During WW2, parachute canopies were frequently made by companies that normally made clothing items for men and women.  But they had to be made to specified Military Standards.  And there was and probably still is a Military Standard, or related specifications, for just about everything from food items to battleships.

377 is absolutely correct about the 26-foot Navy Conical canopies.  They were extremely hard to find in the 1960s and cost about two or three times as much as a standard 28-foot canopy. 
 
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #276 on: October 11, 2021, 09:54:24 PM »
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Dudeman have you seen the Korat Thailand 727 static line jumps? I’d have expected severe opening shocks but the videos show pretty gentle openings to my eye. The canopies “squid” which slows the opening. I think I’d have pulled off the stairs if I knew about those jumps. I do agree that an extended freefall at night with no clear horizon or azimuth reference and with an asymmetric external loaf would cause tumbling or at least a spin. Arching will normally stabilize you in pitch and roll but not yaw. You need a visual azimuth reference point to avoid a spin.


I have seen the Thailand jumps. I think they do get a pretty stiff opening shock. As the bag comes out of the container, and the canopy comes out of the bag and starts to inflate, that all does look pretty smooth. But the canopy goes out of frame before it's fully inflated. Just before/as the jumper goes out of frame, it looks to me like they are getting a pretty good yank at that point, as the canopy would be reaching full inflation. And that's with a bagged main. That unbagged reserve he jumped I think would open somewhat quicker. If it was diapered it might be a bit easier, but if it was just straight canopy with the line stows in the container, that thing would open like a bullwhip. Do you know which of those ways it would be packed? I think diaper is more likely, but the other way is possible?

(A diaper is a device that sequences the opening. It holds the bottom of the canopy closed, and the lines are stowed on it. When the chute gets to line stretch, the diaper opens and allows the canopy to inflate. The other way, the lines are stowed in the pack tray of the container, and the canopy is free to start inflating as soon as it leaves the container.)

As for pulling off the stairs - I think I noted this when you posted the video at DZ some time ago, but in the Thailand video, when the bag comes out of the container it immediately gets blown/sucked upwards to the tail. If Cooper was to pull off the stairs, that could result in the canopy entangling with the plane. Cooper in tow.

I don't buy that it would be so dark that Cooper 'couldn't see his hand in front of his face'. I've asked this before and not sure if I've gotten a definitive answer, but what was the moon that night? The pilots stated that they could see the glow of Portland lights. So with any ambient light, if Cooper could so much as see the clouds, he can see a heading. Whether or not he spins and tumbles would depend on whether he had any experience and how well he might naturally take to it. The money bag could certainly give him problems. My question would be whether it was centered and tight, or whether it was flopping around.

Also, apparently you're not going to confirm whether that was Taft you jumped at?  :P
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #277 on: October 12, 2021, 01:25:51 AM »
I'm of the viewpoint that Cooper was experienced.

If he was experienced, the reality of "You die right now unless you pull" is a nice clarifying state of mind.

I think when choices are that simple, the mind actually calms down rather than panics..(if you're experienced.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 01:27:01 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #278 on: October 12, 2021, 03:36:08 AM »
Steinthal it is. Thanks, 377.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #279 on: October 12, 2021, 03:46:19 PM »
Andrade and Dudeman,

Let's discuss statistics and probability.  Statistics refers to past events.  Probability refers to the chances that a future event will happen.

Andrade's work on combat jumps is a statistic based on jump records.  What is the probability of the next jump being successful?

Can you or anyone else calculate the probability that Cooper's jump was successful?
 

Online andrade1812

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #280 on: October 12, 2021, 04:10:14 PM »
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Andrade and Dudeman,

Let's discuss statistics and probability.  Statistics refers to past events.  Probability refers to the chances that a future event will happen.

Andrade's work on combat jumps is a statistic based on jump records.  What is the probability of the next jump being successful?

Can you or anyone else calculate the probability that Cooper's jump was successful?

This is the preliminary topic of the speech I intend to give at CooperCon this year. Basic Bayesian analysis. Not to give away the punchline, but .82.
 
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Offline dudeman17

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #281 on: October 12, 2021, 07:05:17 PM »
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Andrade and Dudeman,

Let's discuss statistics and probability.  Statistics refers to past events.  Probability refers to the chances that a future event will happen.

Andrade's work on combat jumps is a statistic based on jump records.  What is the probability of the next jump being successful?

Can you or anyone else calculate the probability that Cooper's jump was successful?


Statistics inform probability.

On any given jump, the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of survival. However, people occasionally do go in. So, on any given Sunday, as they say, anything is possible. Who knows? Maybe Cooper was one of the few people to survive terminal impact.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #282 on: October 12, 2021, 07:09:02 PM »
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If he was experienced, the reality of "You die right now unless you pull" is a nice clarifying state of mind.


Nah. It would be, "Take it on down! I've only got one shot anyways, and Hell isn't half full yet!"  Ha!
 

Offline northern flight path

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #283 on: October 12, 2021, 10:52:02 PM »
can you studs un hijack this thread?

if not explain what it's about

« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 11:02:41 PM by northern flight path »
 

Online Chaucer

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Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
« Reply #284 on: October 12, 2021, 11:03:49 PM »
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Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???
So, then what chutes/rigs/canopies did Cooper jump with, oh esteemed Bruce. A. Smith?
Well it sure is entertaining to come on here.  You are like the beach bully that just kicked sand in the face of the poor yuppies lying on their blanket.  Cooper pulled the damn cord, jumped between 8:11 and 8:15 and its my hope he is reading all of this and laughing. Of course while drinking his bourbon.  Maybe straight by now.
Sorry if this wasn’t clear, but there was no malice or bullying intended with my post. It was just friendly ribbing. Bruce and I have exchanged multiple cordial and light-hearted emails in the past. I apologized if it was taken any other way besides joking.

I have nothing but respect for Bruce.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 11:11:26 PM by Chaucer »