DB COOPER

General Category => DB Cooper => Topic started by: Shutter on September 30, 2019, 07:35:59 PM

Title: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on September 30, 2019, 07:35:59 PM
new thread
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: EU on September 30, 2019, 08:51:40 PM
Congrats to Darren. His podcasts not only kick ass, but they also serve to create an important permanent record. Great job Darren!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on September 30, 2019, 11:43:44 PM
Good luck to Darren.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on October 01, 2019, 01:22:24 PM
I'm honored to have earned my own thread at The DB Cooper Forum. Thank you.

 :chr2:
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on October 16, 2019, 09:01:40 PM
Our latest episode is out now!

DB Cooper was a Railroader with the anonymous Army analyst that uncovered William J Smith.

Its a great episode, I know you guys will enjoy it.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-a-railroader-anonymous/

Check it out!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on October 18, 2019, 08:18:46 AM
I'll give it listen on my trip to Ohio next week.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 20, 2019, 05:34:05 AM
More kudos to Darren.

I just received my copy of Nat Loufoque's book on E Howard Hunt, titled: DB Cooper - Examined, Identified, and Exposed.

Darren's podcast with Nat is informative and intriguing, whereas Nat's book is a Hot Mess. It's barely readable, literally. The margins are WAY TOO narrow, and every page is a nightmare to read. Worse, most of the chapters are fillers. Worst, Nat opts to add his own speculative notions to what DB Cooper was thinking, feeling etc. Nat even says that while waiting for Flight 305 to board DB Cooper itched with pain due to an ulcer.

Nat, YOUGOTTABEKIDDINGME. C'mon, man. Next time you wanna write about DB Cooper, why don't you talk to some of us who have been reading, writing, and researching this fellow for awhile and have an advanced, considered view on who the guy really was.

One more thing. If you're gonna use my writing on Cooper in your book, please ask me for permission - or at least give me a heads-up. Thanks. Seeing my stuff in someone else's book without direct accreditation makes me cranky...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 20, 2019, 05:37:10 AM
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Our latest episode is out now!

DB Cooper was a Railroader with the anonymous Army analyst that uncovered William J Smith.

Its a great episode, I know you guys will enjoy it.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-a-railroader-anonymous/

Check it out!

This researcher has been in contact with me from time to time. I consider his theories to be sound and thoughtful. However, the research is a bit thin in places, but overall, the fellow Darren interviews is a decent guy.

I'll be listening, too!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 22, 2019, 01:20:51 PM
You are an asset to the Vortex Darren. Keep up the good work.

377
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on November 09, 2019, 11:14:45 AM
Our latest episode is out now. DB Cooper was a Priest with Gregg Gossett.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-a-priest/

Enjoy!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: David on November 27, 2019, 11:05:14 AM
I just listened to the Barb Dayton podcast, which I enjoyed.  I picked that one first because I have a trans-male son. 

Barb sounds like somebody described to me by an older transmale (female to male) in his 60's.  He talked about a transfemale that became a biker and hung around with the HA.  This came out of a discussion about how acceptance of people comes from strange places, in that bikers at the time were quite accepting of different people, including trans-people.  Or maybe he read the book your podcast guests wrote and was just repeating the story.


Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 27, 2019, 04:01:14 PM
I'll have to listen to the Formans' podcast and refresh my memory of Bob and Barb Dayton's exploits.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on December 18, 2019, 11:17:01 PM
Two new episodes up tonight! One is DB Cooper was a Sport Parachutist with Mark Metzler, who even threw in a DB Cooper Forum plug, and the other episode is my speech from the latest CooperCon.

Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Lynn on December 19, 2019, 02:40:47 PM
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Two new episodes up tonight! One is DB Cooper was a Sport Parachutist with Mark Metzler, who even threw in a DB Cooper Forum plug, and the other episode is my speech from the latest CooperCon.

Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/
Listening now - much easier listening than some of the podcasts I've been listening to on the William Desmond Taylor case. You both sound very professional and keep to the topics, completely lucid and Darren is an excellent interviewer - not grandstanding but asking what people want to know in a concise manner. Lovely to hear 377's always clear and useful insights. Will check out the Cooper Con speech next, wish I could have been there. Sounds like it was fun.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on December 20, 2019, 10:52:06 AM
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Two new episodes up tonight! One is DB Cooper was a Sport Parachutist with Mark Metzler, who even threw in a DB Cooper Forum plug, and the other episode is my speech from the latest CooperCon.

Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/
Listening now - much easier listening than some of the podcasts I've been listening to on the William Desmond Taylor case. You both sound very professional and keep to the topics, completely lucid and Darren is an excellent interviewer - not grandstanding but asking what people want to know in a concise manner. Lovely to hear 377's always clear and useful insights. Will check out the Cooper Con speech next, wish I could have been there. Sounds like it was fun.

I gave the one with 377 a listen yesterday as I was driving home from Arkansas. Other than the Tom Kaye episode, this was probably my favorite. I'll check the other one out on my next road trip.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on February 21, 2020, 09:15:25 PM
Russell and I are back to work after the holidays and my move from Boise to Denver. We recorded two episodes this week! One of them features a member of this forum too.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on February 26, 2020, 08:31:25 PM
Our latest episode is up now! DB Cooper is Still Missing with Ross Richardson. Some of you may know Ross from this forum as NMIWrecks. Check it out!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-is-still-missing-ross-richardson/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 27, 2020, 03:58:13 AM
Ah..... the grocery store manager who disappeared from northern Michigan with a young honey bun in tow, bound for Mexico.... good tale.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on March 09, 2020, 07:42:16 PM
Finally covering John List as a potential suspect with author Joe Sharkey. DB Cooper Didn't Murder His Family. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-did-not-murder-his-family-joe-sharkey/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: EU on March 20, 2020, 10:47:24 PM
VERY COOL ANNOUNCEMENT

I approached Darren Schaefer today about the prospect of quickly putting together a podcast called the “DB Cooper BS Session” whereby we get a few people together to discuss the Cooper case and other fun subjects in a light-hearted and entertaining fashion. The idea being that we could push this podcast out as quickly as possible to help bring a measure of entertainment and enjoyment to people who may be in lock-down or otherwise sitting around the house.

I called Tom Kaye and asked if he’d be willing to participate which he immediately agreed he would. Darren reached out to Anonymous—the driving force behind the William Smith story—and likewise he agreed to participate as well.

Therefore, Darren, Tom, Anonymous and I will be recording a 2-hour DB Cooper BS Session podcast tomorrow which will be released via The Cooper Vortex Podcast sometime this coming week.

I very much want to thank Darren, Tom and Anonymous for willing to contribute to this endeavor to make life a little easier for people by offering up an informative and entertaining podcast on the DB Cooper case during these challenging times.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on March 24, 2020, 12:23:53 AM
I just uploaded our latest episode. DB Cooper's Shocking Details with Joe Swaney of Thinking Sideways and his new show The Shocking Details. Check it out!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-coopers-shocking-details-joe-swaney/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: EU on March 27, 2020, 12:04:15 AM
Darren just loaded a special episode of The Cooper Vortex which includes a discussion with Tom Kaye, Anonymous (William J Smith fame), Darren and myself.

https://pod.link/1439712498/episode/dGhlY29vcGVydm9ydGV4LnBvZGJlYW4uY29tLzc1ZGRjY2RhLTljODgtNTRlOS05YzgyLTUwMmY3YjIxNjk1OQ==
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 27, 2020, 04:46:09 AM
I couldn't load it. I chased all over the Internet to the Vortex to Facebook, but nothing ran. Wassup?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: EU on March 27, 2020, 09:18:30 AM
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I couldn't load it. I chased all over the Internet to the Vortex to Facebook, but nothing ran. Wassup?

Try this link Bruce:

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on March 27, 2020, 05:33:00 PM
Its generally my policy not to comment on Cooper podcasts, but in this one instance I will say a few things, to set the facts straight!

1. If the Army analyst or statistician, or whatever he is contacted me and I came back 'uninterested' then something is wrong. Analytical work would have been exactly the kind of thing I would be interested in .... so I have no idea what went wrong or why, because as far as I am concerned his statistical analysis of the money distribution in the general population (at banks etc) is one of the most interesting things I heard in this podcast. Im a little sorry we didn't connect to communicate because some of his ideas might have been put to the test - we might know more today than we do! That could prove to be a loss. That person's work could be very valuable in this case! He commented that this kind of statistical work might have been very valuable (crucial) earlier in the case! I could not agree more.  I appreciated everything he had to say!  I dont know what more to say..

2. Tom Kaye was not the tenth or eleventh guy I called looking for someone to do SEM work on the money. He was the first, in the general public! We knew who Tom was and something about his capabilities, his lab capabilities, and he was in a favorable section of the country for expedited delivery of bills from Seattle to Arizona and basic analytical work we wanted. Had Tom said "no", I/We had other lab options. Our forensic mandate from Larry Carr was to analyze the money looking for anything that would shed light on several basic questions. That was our only forensic mandate and the only reason I got involved. I was not looking to become involved in a 'fishing expedition' involving the whole DB Cooper case! When Tom was selected we had no idea he would take on the whole case - that came as a total surprise and I/We dropped out, leading to Tom forming his own 'science team'. The rest is history. The forensic part of the Cooper case has prospered under Tom and Larry's direction. I dont think anyone can seriously argue with that ...     

3. Tom Kaye is not a diatom expert, or a Columbia diatom expert or he would already have shaped his comments differently - and neither are the other panelists speaking on this subject. From my perspective that is obvious and it is adversely affecting the whole discussion so far. Real experts need to be involved (somehow), or the whole discussion about diatoms on the Cooper money is going to be flawed.             
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on March 28, 2020, 04:22:00 PM
Original announcement of a science project with Larry Carr - 2008 at Dropzone:
https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/page/170/?tab=comments#comment-3083630

georger
August 27, 2008

Hopefully (if everything goes right on my end) in several weeks we should have some interesting discoveries as it relates to the money thanks to Georger. (Ckret)



REPLY/EXPLANATION:

Some time ago, a panel was assembled and recommended to Larry Carr with the idea of examining the money.

The panel consists of recognised experts in different areas of forensics and analysis, who will examine the money or specimens from the money cache. The analyses will be conducted in laboratory environments equiped with the latest in technology, including chemical, spectroscopic, and even electron microscopy (if necessary).

Our panel will also have access to other researchers and resources if necessary. Every person on our panel is highly skilled, experienced, credentialed, and a published research scientist: some with ties to Quantico.

We have no preconceptions about what we will find. Whatever we find, all information will be relayed to Spc. Agent Carr and his colleagues for their decision making process and determination.

We consider this an opportunity to try and extract some useful information which will help the FBI first and foremost. It has been through the very kind efforts of Larry and his colleagues that this is possible. Speaking for the whole panel, I wish to thank them all publicly.

Wish us luck!

Sincerely,
Georger
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on April 10, 2020, 10:50:47 PM
New episode out now! DB Cooper is a Folk Hero with Ben Holland. Check it out!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-is-a-folk-hero-ben-holland/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 15, 2020, 04:31:05 AM
Had a wonderful time today, chatting with Darren and Nicky B on the Cooper Vortex podcast. 2.5 hours of unrelenting conjecture, speculation, and commentary on Things-That-Just-Don't- Add-Up in Cooperville.

I trust it'll be fun to listen to when ol' Russell straightens everything out in the editing room....
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: EU on April 15, 2020, 08:04:30 AM
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Had a wonderful time today, chatting with Darren and Nicky B on the Cooper Vortex podcast. 2.5 hours of unrelenting conjecture, speculation, and commentary on Things-That-Just-Don't- Add-Up in Cooperville.

I trust it'll be fun to listen to when ol' Russell straightens everything out in the editing room....

I'm looking forward to it.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on April 17, 2020, 09:56:23 PM
Here's one to keep you two entertained while you wait! My latest episode with Keith Hirshland who was there in Reno with his father's News Crew. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-ingrained-in-my-memory-keith-hirshland/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on April 18, 2020, 01:51:06 AM
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Here's one to keep you two entertained while you wait! My latest episode with Keith Hirshland who was there in Reno with his father's News Crew. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-ingrained-in-my-memory-keith-hirshland/

One of the better podcasts you have done; an interesting guest with an actual memory of Cooper's plane landing at Reno. I tend to agree with your guest that Cooper's life was not monolithic - but a blend of many lives and experiences. In fact, Cooper's discussion with Tina seems to document a wide experience ... But I don't see Cooper as needing or even wanting an assistant. I think his escape plan was to go it alone. That may have been to his advantage. All or nothing.   
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on April 24, 2020, 01:54:55 PM
Thank you georger! I appreciate that. Maybe we can get you to come on the show sometime!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on April 24, 2020, 02:04:40 PM
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Thank you georger! I appreciate that. Maybe we can get you to come on the show sometime!

Not in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on April 24, 2020, 02:13:37 PM
Interview these folks! In fact,  interview the "author" Gayla Prociv at Auburn WA, the power lady/brains behind The Adventure Books/R&G Housecleaning and Robert Blevins/DB Cooper enterprise!  That would be a first.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 24, 2020, 05:11:52 PM
BTW, the above photo was taken outside the Eatonville Library during the Minnow shoot. Hence, I assume RMB will be in the BBC docu.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on April 24, 2020, 06:23:25 PM
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Had a wonderful time today, chatting with Darren and Nicky B on the Cooper Vortex podcast. 2.5 hours of unrelenting conjecture, speculation, and commentary on Things-That-Just-Don't- Add-Up in Cooperville.

I trust it'll be fun to listen to when ol' Russell straightens everything out in the editing room....

It will be up tonight!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on April 24, 2020, 08:09:10 PM
It’s up now. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-conspiracy-panel-bruce-smith-and-nicky-broughton/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: EU on April 25, 2020, 11:34:54 AM
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It’s up now. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-conspiracy-panel-bruce-smith-and-nicky-broughton/

A very entertaining podcast from the other end of the DB Cooper spectrum!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on April 25, 2020, 05:18:19 PM
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It’s up now. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-conspiracy-panel-bruce-smith-and-nicky-broughton/

Why would there be any mystery about how Jo Weber (and Duane) obtained information.  :o  Both were Insurance/realty brokers after they met; after their previous careers living on the edge.  Expert net-workers by telephone. People tend to talk and give out information if the presentation is good. Made thousands if not tens of thousands of phone calls. During her trip to WA she had a crew networking asking questions... Jo's favorite trick was the sympathy card - Im in trouble I need to know ... Im calling for X who is in trouble ... Im calling looking for ....  if a principal would talk or answer the phone you start calling secondary sources like cousins, family members, friends, etc. Jo was always trying to do people 'favors'  ... Im calling because I think you might like to know . . .  it worked with H's wife and with Dormant's (sp) wife Jane (Tina's sister) ... it worked for a time with JT's wife ... Jo preferred using female networks and social-sympathy cards etc. Jo and Duane's lives literally depended on having these skills, before and after they met each other. Bruce, Galen, etal will confirm all of this! Back in the 70s the doors to information were easy to crack just using a telephone and the right strategies; no legal issues immediately at stake. It worked for the FBI and others, why not for Jo and Duane! ? There is more but not fit for publication - 
Recent mug shot.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: fcastle866 on April 25, 2020, 09:37:56 PM
Nice work guys.  Darren, Bruce, Nicky.  The value of these podcasts is amplified considerably during the lockdown.  It would be great to hear from other panels of guests from this site as well.  I always learn something new or think of a different angle to look at the case from.  Thanks.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 26, 2020, 04:33:25 AM
Kudos to Russell for the editing. Really nice work, and I remember how wild and crazy the conversation got at times - talking over each other, etc.

Thanks, Darren. Fun times.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on April 30, 2020, 10:38:15 PM
New episode out tonight! DB Cooper and The Thrill of the Chase with Mindy Fausey and Stephanie Thirtyacre. They believe Forrest Fenn could be DB Cooper. If you've never heard of Forrest Fenn I'd highly recommend it, if you have heard of him then I know you'll listen.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-mindy-fausey-and-stephanie-thirtyacre/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 01, 2020, 10:44:59 AM
Another Cooper Treasure Hunt

Besides the Forrest Finn/DB Cooper Treasure Hunt in New Mexico, there is one that has been on-going here in Cooper Country.

The author of HA, HA, HA, who name I do not know, is offering $200,000 to all who can solve his Norjak puzzle as revealed in his book. I think the offer is genuine. I've spoken with the author a couple of years ago, and here's what I know.

He lives in the Sedro Wooley area of Washington State. He can be reached by his publicist, who lives in Sedro Wooley. I'll have to dig up the name and contact info - later. She's a part-time real estate agent.

The author says he is a wealthy man, having made a fortune in stocks and financial instruments. He's got money to give away, and like Forrest Finn, he loves a party and a big whoop-di-do about a treasure hunt.

The author grew up in Vancouver, WA, and wrote HA, HA, HA based upon what he could glean from newspaper accounts at the public library, and coupled that with what he thought was Cooper's back story, heavily influence by his speculation that Cooper was a criminal. The back story has a 50's TV feel to it.

The author admitted to me that he is not DB Cooper.

He says that all the necessary clues are in the book, and there are seven of them. When you've solved the puzzle, let him know and he'll give you the money.

I couldn't find one clue and gave up. But good luck to y'all.

Darren, maybe you ought to send this on to your gals from the podcast on FF - Mindy and Stephanie. They sound like it might be just they cup o' tea.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: EU on May 01, 2020, 02:48:03 PM
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Another Cooper Treasure Hunt

Besides the Forrest Finn/DB Cooper Treasure Hunt in New Mexico, there is one that has been on-going here in Cooper Country.

The author of HA, HA, HA, who name I do not know, is offering $200,000 to all who can solve his Norjak puzzle as revealed in his book. I think the offer is genuine. I've spoken with the author a couple of years ago, and here's what I know.

He lives in the Sedro Wooley area of Washington State. He can be reached by his publicist, who lives in Sedro Wooley. I'll have to dig up the name and contact info - later. She's a part-time real estate agent.

The author says he is a wealthy man, having made a fortune in stocks and financial instruments. He's got money to give away, and like Forrest Finn, he loves a party and a big whoop-di-do about a treasure hunt.

The author grew up in Vancouver, WA, and wrote HA, HA, HA based upon what he could glean from newspaper accounts at the public library, and coupled that with what he thought was Cooper's back story, heavily influence by his speculation that Cooper was a criminal. The back story has a 50's TV feel to it.

The author admitted to me that he is not DB Cooper.

He says that all the necessary clues are in the book, and there are seven of them. When you've solved the puzzle, let him know and he'll give you the money.

I couldn't find one clue and gave up. But good luck to y'all.

Darren, maybe you ought to send this on to your gals from the podcast on FF - Mindy and Stephanie. They sound like it might be just they cup o' tea.

This sounds a little bizarre to me. To what end is such an offer being made?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on May 01, 2020, 05:48:03 PM
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Another Cooper Treasure Hunt

The author of HA, HA, HA, who name I do not know...     I've spoken with the author a couple of years ago, and here's what I know.

The author grew up in Vancouver, WA, and wrote HA, HA, HA based upon what he could glean from newspaper accounts at the public library, and coupled that with what he thought was Cooper's back story, heavily influence by his speculation that Cooper was a criminal. The back story has a 50's TV feel to it.



I'm curious - In your talk with him, did he address why, in his version, he has Cooper jumping not over Washington, but later, on the approach to Reno?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 01, 2020, 06:12:05 PM
Happy Hunting:

Here ya go:

Diane Dalbey
135 State St.
Sedro Wooley, WA 98284
360. 421. 1112

I spoke with her and the author in January 2019. I had a long chat with the author, and we promised to meet with each other the next time I was in his area.

Diane is primarily trying to sell copies of the book. She says there are 1,000 copies left from the initial printing back in the 1980s. Current list price is $39.95. A tad over-priced in my view.

She mailed me a copy of the book and a short note back in early 2019, which got this whole thing going.


Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 01, 2020, 06:25:29 PM
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Another Cooper Treasure Hunt

The author of HA, HA, HA, who name I do not know...     I've spoken with the author a couple of years ago, and here's what I know.

The author grew up in Vancouver, WA, and wrote HA, HA, HA based upon what he could glean from newspaper accounts at the public library, and coupled that with what he thought was Cooper's back story, heavily influence by his speculation that Cooper was a criminal. The back story has a 50's TV feel to it.



I'm curious - In your talk with him, did he address why, in his version, he has Cooper jumping not over Washington, but later, on the approach to Reno?

Here are some tidbits from my notes, as I decipher my handwriting....

1. Author will respond to correspondence at:

PO Box 2069
Mt. Vernon, WA

2. Author stated that all of his DB Cooper "facts" came from public sources, such as newspapers and TV broadcasts. I assume that means the jump in Reno, too.

3. Diane estimates the author to be in his late 70s.

4. Author says that he doesn't want "any more heat from the FBI." Not sure what kind of heat he has experienced, but his story sounds convoluted. There is a drama concerning who printed the first 25,000 copies, and where 14,000 copies went. Author and Diane currently have 11,000 copies to sell. Diane said there was a lot of media interest when the book was published in the early 1980s and the FBI got involved. Diane said the feds prevented their scheduled appearance on the Letterman Show in 1983.

5. Author says that he is masking his identity to protect his current business interests. He says he is "very public."
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on May 01, 2020, 07:06:47 PM
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Another Cooper Treasure Hunt

The author of HA, HA, HA, who name I do not know...     I've spoken with the author a couple of years ago, and here's what I know.

The author grew up in Vancouver, WA, and wrote HA, HA, HA based upon what he could glean from newspaper accounts at the public library, and coupled that with what he thought was Cooper's back story, heavily influence by his speculation that Cooper was a criminal. The back story has a 50's TV feel to it.



I'm curious - In your talk with him, did he address why, in his version, he has Cooper jumping not over Washington, but later, on the approach to Reno?

Here are some tidbits from my notes, as I decipher my handwriting....

1. Author will respond to correspondence at:

PO Box 2069
Mt. Vernon, WA

2. Author stated that all of his DB Cooper "facts" came from public sources, such as newspapers and TV broadcasts. I assume that means the jump in Reno, too.

3. Diane estimates the author to be in his late 70s.

4. Author says that he doesn't want "any more heat from the FBI." Not sure what kind of heat he has experienced, but his story sounds convoluted. There is a drama concerning who printed the first 25,000 copies, and where 14,000 copies went. Author and Diane currently have 11,000 copies to sell. Diane said there was a lot of media interest when the book was published in the early 1980s and the FBI got involved. Diane said the feds prevented their scheduled appearance on the Letterman Show in 1983.

5. Author says that he is masking his identity to protect his current business interests. He says he is "very public."

Bruce, do you remember the first Expedition Unknown telecast on the Cooper matter?  If you are having a hard time remembering it, just remember that you were in it as were a couple of other people on this thread.  If my memory is correct, the producers of that telecast stated in the program that the Cooper jump at Reno scenario was suggested by a former FBI agent in the Seattle area.

I have never heard of anyone else suggesting a jump at Reno.  So maybe this is the same fellow.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on May 01, 2020, 09:04:29 PM
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I have never heard of anyone else suggesting a jump at Reno.  So maybe this is the same fellow.

I've been skydiving since '79. Some years ago, probably late 90's - early 2000's, I was jumping regularly at a small central California dz, and this guy hung out there for a while who had been an active jumper in the 60's-70's. He had written a book. (For the life of me, I can't remember the guy's name or the name of his book.) The main plot and characters of his book were fiction, but it was set in that 60's-70's era of skydiving and contained real-life people and events. In the last half of the book as a secondary plot, he had a character pull off the skyjacking. He didn't use the name or say that it was national news, but it was clearly the Cooper caper. Well, in his version, he also had the skyjacker jumping on the approach to Reno. I wasn't really following the case at the time, so I don't think I asked him about it, but when I heard that Ha Ha Ha had the same scenario, it caught my attention.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 01, 2020, 11:30:21 PM
Jumping at Reno

The first time I heard of a Reno jump was the recent posting by the FBI agent who also appeared in the Expedition Unknown episode that Robert99, Meyer, and I were in. I forget the FBI's guy's name.

As for HA, HA, HA selecting Reno, I don't specifically remember that. Frankly, I skimmed the book when I got it from Diane over a year ago.

Lastly, there is something about Reno. Perhaps, it's a portal into the Vortex. Robb Heady stole his plane in Reno, and at least one other hijacked plane landed in Reno.

Lastly, lastly, I have lost my copy of HA, HA, HA. I think it walked at CooperCon 2019....
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on May 01, 2020, 11:40:09 PM
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Jumping at Reno

The first time I heard of a Reno jump was the recent posting by the FBI agent who also appeared in the Expedition Unknown episode that Robert99, Meyer, and I were in. I forget the FBI's guy's name.

As for HA, HA, HA selecting Reno, I don't specifically remember that. Frankly, I skimmed the book when I got it from Diane over a year ago.

Lastly, there is something about Reno. Perhaps, it's a portal into the Vortex. Robb Heady stole his plane in Reno, and at least one other hijacked plane landed in Reno.

Lastly, lastly, I have lost my copy of HA, HA, HA. I think it walked at CooperCon 2019....

Is the Reno jump guy named - GEORGE somebody?   He made a strong pitch.

He isnt Johnny Green!     :congrats:    Does Johny Green have his ears and nipples pierced, and tats on his lips? And a law degree?   ;D
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on May 02, 2020, 12:26:35 AM
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New episode out tonight! DB Cooper and The Thrill of the Chase with Mindy Fausey and Stephanie Thirtyacre. They believe Forrest Fenn could be DB Cooper. If you've never heard of Forrest Fenn I'd highly recommend it, if you have heard of him then I know you'll listen.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-mindy-fausey-and-stephanie-thirtyacre/

Darren please explain the mechanics of your podcasts? What software is used etc? Zoom, Skype, Cisco Meeting, ?? Or just over a telephone?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on May 02, 2020, 01:03:22 PM
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Darren please explain the mechanics of your podcasts? What software is used etc? Zoom, Skype, Cisco Meeting, ?? Or just over a telephone?

While I definitely prefer to do the interview in person, that isn’t always possible. My second choice is to use a program called Zencastr, because it allows us to record the tracks separately so if we briefly talk over each other Russell can fix that without losing anything. My last choice is to do it over the phone, but with the equipment I have now that isn’t too bad.

I hope this question means you’re considering coming on.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on May 02, 2020, 02:22:40 PM
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Darren please explain the mechanics of your podcasts? What software is used etc? Zoom, Skype, Cisco Meeting, ?? Or just over a telephone?

While I definitely prefer to do the interview in person, that isn’t always possible. My second choice is to use a program called Zencastr, because it allows us to record the tracks separately so if we briefly talk over each other Russell can fix that without losing anything. My last choice is to do it over the phone, but with the equipment I have now that isn’t too bad.

I hope this question means you’re considering coming on.

So each participant must have Zencastr ?

Have you ever considered using Zoom?  We have a neighborhood-golf course block party (sing along) every Sat night now - everyone is using Zoom. One guy's nine year old son is running the Zoom chat taking comments and requests. It's hilarious and everyone is enjoying it - people setting up on the golf course well spaced in lawn chairs ...  police now running a patrol (to applause) singing along. So far its private not being opened to the world. 
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on May 02, 2020, 02:40:47 PM
No, I just email a link and the guest is taken to the Zencastr page recording session. The only issue I have with it is it doesn’t support Internet Explorer anymore, and if my guest doesn’t have Chrome, Firefox, or Safari then they’ll have to download one of those.

I don’t use Zoom because as far as I know it won’t allow me to record the tracks separately, and I don’t do video.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 03, 2020, 04:24:54 AM
Chrome seems to be a necessity these days. Zoom and other applications require it or recommend it. But if and when you download Chrome (free) from their site, one has to double-click the download button. It took me three days to figure that one out.

Remember, Cousin Brucie told ya!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on May 03, 2020, 04:25:58 AM
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No, I just email a link and the guest is taken to the Zencastr page recording session. The only issue I have with it is it doesn’t support Internet Explorer anymore, and if my guest doesn’t have Chrome, Firefox, or Safari then they’ll have to download one of those.

I don’t use Zoom because as far as I know it won’t allow me to record the tracks separately, and I don’t do video.

It works fine, Georger. I highly encourage you to do a session with Darren. He is top-notch.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: nickyb233 on May 03, 2020, 06:16:16 AM
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I have never heard of anyone else suggesting a jump at Reno.  So maybe this is the same fellow.

I've been skydiving since '79. Some years ago, probably late 90's - early 2000's, I was jumping regularly at a small central California dz, and this guy hung out there for a while who had been an active jumper in the 60's-70's. He had written a book. (For the life of me, I can't remember the guy's name or the name of his book.) The main plot and characters of his book were fiction, but it was set in that 60's-70's era of skydiving and contained real-life people and events. In the last half of the book as a secondary plot, he had a character pull off the skyjacking. He didn't use the name or say that it was national news, but it was clearly the Cooper caper. Well, in his version, he also had the skyjacker jumping on the approach to Reno. I wasn't really following the case at the time, so I don't think I asked him about it, but when I heard that Ha Ha Ha had the same scenario, it caught my attention.

The guys name was Brian Williams and he wrote it under the pen name Pat Dunbar, the book is titled A Dark Night and it’s a great read. It’s rumored that Brian had inside information on how cooper skyjacked flight 305 and included it in his book. In his story cooper jumped on it’s descent into Reno and also deployed a parachute off the stairs to simulate the pressure bump over the known dz. He also brought his own chute on board and hid it in the briefcase bomb. The book offers  a good explanation for how cooper could of pulled it off.

https://www.amazon.com/JUMP-RUN-DARK-NIGHT-Dunbar/dp/0974399302
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on May 03, 2020, 02:20:32 PM
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I have never heard of anyone else suggesting a jump at Reno.  So maybe this is the same fellow.

I've been skydiving since '79. Some years ago, probably late 90's - early 2000's, I was jumping regularly at a small central California dz, and this guy hung out there for a while who had been an active jumper in the 60's-70's. He had written a book. (For the life of me, I can't remember the guy's name or the name of his book.) The main plot and characters of his book were fiction, but it was set in that 60's-70's era of skydiving and contained real-life people and events. In the last half of the book as a secondary plot, he had a character pull off the skyjacking. He didn't use the name or say that it was national news, but it was clearly the Cooper caper. Well, in his version, he also had the skyjacker jumping on the approach to Reno. I wasn't really following the case at the time, so I don't think I asked him about it, but when I heard that Ha Ha Ha had the same scenario, it caught my attention.

The guys name was Brian Williams and he wrote it under the pen name Pat Dunbar, the book is titled A Dark Night and it’s a great read. It’s rumored that Brian had inside information on how cooper skyjacked flight 305 and included it in his book. In his story cooper jumped on it’s descent into Reno and also deployed a parachute off the stairs to simulate the pressure bump over the known dz. He also brought his own chute on board and hid it in the briefcase bomb. The book offers  a good explanation for how cooper could of pulled it off.

https://www.amazon.com/JUMP-RUN-DARK-NIGHT-Dunbar/dp/0974399302

Please elaborate on how he "brought his own chute on board and hid it in the briefcase bomb."  Whoever wrote that has obviously never seen a parachute.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on May 03, 2020, 04:06:30 PM
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I have never heard of anyone else suggesting a jump at Reno.  So maybe this is the same fellow.

I've been skydiving since '79. Some years ago, probably late 90's - early 2000's, I was jumping regularly at a small central California dz, and this guy hung out there for a while who had been an active jumper in the 60's-70's. He had written a book. (For the life of me, I can't remember the guy's name or the name of his book.) The main plot and characters of his book were fiction, but it was set in that 60's-70's era of skydiving and contained real-life people and events. In the last half of the book as a secondary plot, he had a character pull off the skyjacking. He didn't use the name or say that it was national news, but it was clearly the Cooper caper. Well, in his version, he also had the skyjacker jumping on the approach to Reno. I wasn't really following the case at the time, so I don't think I asked him about it, but when I heard that Ha Ha Ha had the same scenario, it caught my attention.

The guys name was Brian Williams and he wrote it under the pen name Pat Dunbar, the book is titled A Dark Night and it’s a great read. It’s rumored that Brian had inside information on how cooper skyjacked flight 305 and included it in his book. In his story cooper jumped on it’s descent into Reno and also deployed a parachute off the stairs to simulate the pressure bump over the known dz. He also brought his own chute on board and hid it in the briefcase bomb. The book offers  a good explanation for how cooper could of pulled it off.

https://www.amazon.com/JUMP-RUN-DARK-NIGHT-Dunbar/dp/0974399302

Wow, that's right. I'm curious how you came across that to read it. A few of us at the dz read it because he had a couple copies, but we didn't get to keep them. I was never sure how widely published or distributed it was.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on May 13, 2020, 10:53:53 AM
I moved the comments not related to this thread to clues and documents thread...

Shutter
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on June 20, 2020, 04:11:14 PM
Latest episode out now. DB Cooper and The Adventure Agents with Patrick South. Check it out!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-and-the-adventure-agents-patrick-south/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: RaoulDuke24 on June 21, 2020, 10:22:02 AM
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Latest episode out now. DB Cooper and The Adventure Agents with Patrick South. Check it out!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-and-the-adventure-agents-patrick-south/

I've enjoyed listening to your podcast. I listened to the Forrest Fenn episode the other day. I was wondering if you have reached back out to those two guests since the treasure was finally found recently.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 22, 2020, 05:42:55 AM
Me, too. I'd love to hear a follow-up.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on June 22, 2020, 09:22:21 AM
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Latest episode out now. DB Cooper and The Adventure Agents with Patrick South. Check it out!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-and-the-adventure-agents-patrick-south/

I've enjoyed listening to your podcast. I listened to the Forrest Fenn episode the other day. I was wondering if you have reached back out to those two guests since the treasure was finally found recently.

Has there been any kind of proof that this thing was actually found? The articles I read didn't really have a lot in the way of convincing information.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: RaoulDuke24 on June 22, 2020, 10:16:32 AM
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Latest episode out now. DB Cooper and The Adventure Agents with Patrick South. Check it out!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-and-the-adventure-agents-patrick-south/

I've enjoyed listening to your podcast. I listened to the Forrest Fenn episode the other day. I was wondering if you have reached back out to those two guests since the treasure was finally found recently.

Has there been any kind of proof that this thing was actually found? The articles I read didn't really have a lot in the way of convincing information.

The social media conspiracies are of course doing their usual thing. But the person who found it took photos of the treasure and sent them to Fenn along with the location. Fenn confirmed it was both the treasure and the location. The person who found it then brought the treasure to Fenn and Fenn posted pictures of himself with the found treasure.  So yes.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on July 01, 2020, 08:28:58 PM
New episode out now! Drew Beeson is back and we discuss his new book, Paratrooper of Fortune: The Story of Ted B Braden.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-the-paratrooper-of-fortune-drew-beeson/

Check it out!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 18C on July 10, 2020, 07:18:16 PM
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New episode out now! Drew Beeson is back and we discuss his new book, Paratrooper of Fortune: The Story of Ted B Braden.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-the-paratrooper-of-fortune-drew-beeson/

Check it out!

Enjoyed the heck out of Drew's interview and will buy the book as soon as I can work out how. From what I can see it was only printed a couple of weeks ago and the ink is still drying.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on August 03, 2020, 08:24:29 PM
New episode out today! DB Cooper is a Cold Case with Cheyna Roth. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-is-a-cold-case-cheyna-roth/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 04, 2020, 02:25:55 AM
Who is she? Please tell us more. Your blurb at the Vortex says she is a prosecutor who writes about cold cases.

I'll be listening, but not right now.

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: RaoulDuke24 on August 04, 2020, 01:02:34 PM
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New episode out today! DB Cooper is a Cold Case with Cheyna Roth. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-is-a-cold-case-cheyna-roth/

Awesome, I will definitely give it a listen. I've enjoyed all of these so far.

There was also another episode of the Martin McNally podcast put out today, so that's two good ones to keep me distracted from work this afternoon.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 18C on August 05, 2020, 11:17:44 PM
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New episode out today! DB Cooper is a Cold Case with Cheyna Roth. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-is-a-cold-case-cheyna-roth/
Listened in and enjoyed. Cheyna had you doing a rethink on the bomb being real or not. But by the end you had her doing a rethink too. For what it's worth I don't think it was a real bomb. It does raise the question of what would DBC have done if they had called his bluff on the bomb. But perhaps that little talked about second bag DBC carried on-board contained a gun?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 07, 2020, 05:22:13 PM
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New episode out today! DB Cooper is a Cold Case with Cheyna Roth. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-is-a-cold-case-cheyna-roth/

I listened to this podcast last night and enjoyed it. Highlights for me were Cheyna's comments on why and who is attracted to true crime mysteries. I'd like to hear more on that - especially on why ONLY MEN, in general, are attracted to the DBC saga. This is interesting because a publisher told me that over half of all true crime books are read by women. But NOT Cooper, apparently.

When an interviewer asks me why I'm so passionate about DBC and have been following the case for so long, I am surprised at how tongue-tied I am. And I have had enough psychotherapy to have at least some kind of answer!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on August 10, 2020, 04:49:56 PM
I never really thought about it before, but if the bomb was fake, why not leave it on the plane as sort one last poke at the authorities. You'd basically be telling them, "I hijacked your plane, took your money, and did it all with a fake bomb".

Interesting thought, but I still come down on the side of the bomb being fake.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on August 10, 2020, 05:06:23 PM
That's a crap shoot...he might of felt like it was leaving to much evidence behind..could miss a print wiping it down, link back to him somehow with purchases...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 18C on August 17, 2020, 08:33:59 PM
In Drew Beeson's book 'Paratrooper of Fortune' I read that Tina Mucklow asked (almost begged) DBC to take the bomb with him.

(good read incidentally)

Not sure I had ever heard that before? If I had, I had already managed to forget it. Anyone else remember hearing that elsewhere??
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on August 17, 2020, 09:06:33 PM
She mentions this in her statement the evening of the hijacking that can be viewed in our vault..he responded that he would either take it with him or disarm it..

http://website.thedbcooperforum.com/Cooper-Vault/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on August 18, 2020, 01:20:45 PM
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In Drew Beeson's book 'Paratrooper of Fortune' I read that Tina Mucklow asked (almost begged) DBC to take the bomb with him.

(good read incidentally)

Not sure I had ever heard that before? If I had, I had already managed to forget it. Anyone else remember hearing that elsewhere??

Its a good book, I'd recommend it to anyone that lurks this forum.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Lynn on August 29, 2020, 03:41:41 AM
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Our latest episode is out now. DB Cooper was a Priest with Gregg Gossett.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-a-priest/

Enjoy!
Ooh, looking forward to this one! I'm so behind in - well, everything, lol. I'm still working from home full time and neglecting my fave rabbit holes. Really enjoying what I've heard of the podcasts thus far. You're an excellent interviewer and researcher, and I speak as one who has been screaming "NO! WRONG!" at podcasts about another cold case I've been researching for months now.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on August 30, 2020, 09:59:32 PM
Newcomer to the Vortex Daniel Baer joins me with a new suspect.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-lived-in-alabama-daniel-baer/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 31, 2020, 12:24:19 AM
Darren, you are such a TEASE! Who's the suspect?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on September 06, 2020, 08:39:38 PM
I’ve got a great new episode for you guys! DB Cooper’s Money with world renowned professional numismatist Arthur Friedberg. He’s got some valuable insight into if any of that money was spent.

Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-coopers-money-arthur-l-friedberg/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 06, 2020, 10:00:39 PM
It was a decent listen, Darren. Thanks.

If you're looking for more guests to interview, how about Jim Forbes? I think he would be willing to talk, and share some interesting views in the whole Rackstraw/Colbert/LMNO/History Channel production.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on September 09, 2020, 05:41:44 PM
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I’ve got a great new episode for you guys! DB Cooper’s Money with world renowned professional numismatist Arthur Friedberg. He’s got some valuable insight into if any of that money was spent.

Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-coopers-money-arthur-l-friedberg/

Good interview with an experienced professional in his field. The Tina Bar money may be a harbinger for what happened to the rest of the ransom money. The experts' comments are based on his long experience with found and missing money. His experience is tantamount to a statistical prediction based on experience with other money collections! I found this very interesting and potentially very important.  I am rather sure this experts' remarks replicate what a forensic expert in the Treasury Dept might say ... based on a similar experience with lost and found monies. But the expert asked you a direct question you failed to answer - if the Columbia had ever been searched ! The expert was asking you for context. You failed to mention Tosaw and others who followed up the FBI's excavation with years of searching areas of the Columbia! (known searches conducted 1980-2015!)

You evidently have not read my research and posts on that topic. But, your interview was important and well placed. You might follow this up with an interview of someone from the US Treasury Forensic Division on the same issues as well as what the condition of the Ingram money tells, or predicts ?  :chr2:       
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on September 17, 2020, 07:08:40 PM
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Good interview with an experienced professional in his field. The Tina Bar money may be a harbinger for what happened to the rest of the ransom money. The experts' comments are based on his long experience with found and missing money. His experience is tantamount to a statistical prediction based on experience with other money collections! I found this very interesting and potentially very important.  I am rather sure this experts' remarks replicate what a forensic expert in the Treasury Dept might say ... based on a similar experience with lost and found monies. But the expert asked you a direct question you failed to answer - if the Columbia had ever been searched ! The expert was asking you for context. You failed to mention Tosaw and others who followed up the FBI's excavation with years of searching areas of the Columbia! (known searches conducted 1980-2015!)

You evidently have not read my research and posts on that topic. But, your interview was important and well placed. You might follow this up with an interview of someone from the US Treasury Forensic Division on the same issues as well as what the condition of the Ingram money tells, or predicts ?  :chr2:       

I'd love to have you on the show to talk about the case. Any thoughts on that georger?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 17, 2020, 07:15:03 PM
Go get 'em, Darren!

Smile...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on September 22, 2020, 09:02:33 PM
Latest episode is out now. Johnny Surles, a retired Lieutenant with the North Carolina Highway Patrol. He was working when McCoy robbed the bank in North Carolina after his escape from prison.

Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-a-student-at-byu-johnny-surles/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 18C on September 23, 2020, 12:42:01 AM
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Latest episode is out now. Johnny Surles, a retired Lieutenant with the North Carolina Highway Patrol. He was working when McCoy robbed the bank in North Carolina after his escape from prison.

Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-a-student-at-byu-johnny-surles/

Have always found McCoy's story extremely interesting. Would make for a great movie or miniseries.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on October 06, 2020, 11:30:48 AM
New episode out today. DB Cooper was an Avenger with Harriette Sucher. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-an-avenger-harriette-sucher/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on October 08, 2020, 12:16:43 AM
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New episode out today. DB Cooper was an Avenger with Harriette Sucher. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-an-avenger-harriette-sucher/

I love the podcast Darren, but that was a tough listen, lol!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: RaoulDuke24 on October 08, 2020, 11:10:50 AM
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New episode out today. DB Cooper was an Avenger with Harriette Sucher. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-an-avenger-harriette-sucher/

I love the podcast Darren, but that was a tough listen, lol!

I'll second that. I've been loving these podcasts and have been listening to the episodes as soon as they come out. But I only made it about halfway through this one. Something about the zodiac killer hanging out of the plane by fishing line ... I checked out at that point lol.

But hey, you can't win 'em all haha. Keep these podcasts coming. Really been a big fan of them.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on October 09, 2020, 12:46:41 PM
Thanks for listening guys!

I was able to bully Marty Andrade into coming back on the show, and he's willing to take questions from the audience. Anyone here have any questions they'd like me to ask him on the show?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 09, 2020, 07:22:09 PM
Sure, here ya go:

1. What is your assessment of the FBI's 45-year investigation?
2. What did the FBI do well, what not so well?
3. Fingerprints - why do you think this is such a boondoggle? What's you vote on how many, if any, prints the Feds have, what kind, and where they came from?
4. Flight Path - same questions.
5. What was it like writing a book with your Dad? Tell us EVERYTHING!!!  ....please....
6. What has been the attraction to DBC for you and your Dad?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on October 10, 2020, 11:51:15 PM
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Sure, here ya go:

1. What is your assessment of the FBI's 45-year investigation?
2. What did the FBI do well, what not so well?
3. Fingerprints - why do you think this is such a boondoggle? What's you vote on how many, if any, prints the Feds have, what kind, and where they came from?
4. Flight Path - same questions.
5. What was it like writing a book with your Dad? Tell us EVERYTHING!!!  ....please....
6. What has been the attraction to DBC for you and your Dad?

Actually, if you take the print snips in Shutter's Vault and paste them by date, it tells a chronological story and makes sense. Try it! 

11/25/71   Elimination prints from crew etal at Seattle.
11/25/71   Milnes to Campbell comment personal non lab opinion -
11/26/71   seats, phone, rear door area, seat head rest, etc processed for prints and forensic evidence at Reno - forwarded to Lab for examination.
11/26/71   Eleven useful prints plus partial palm print from plane ... (Lab opinion).
04/20/73   Latent Print Section reply to Knoxville request for print  comparison of their suspect.
10/9/75     Latent Print Section reply to Milwaukee request for print  comparison of their suspect.
04/11/77   File of Eight latent finger prints + partial palm print being used by Lab for all suspect comparisons.
11/16/78   prints entered into new automated computer graphics system for faster Lab turn-around and Field Office access.   

Where's the 'boondoggle' you allege ?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 11, 2020, 03:19:42 AM
The 302 that says the 11 prints taken at Reno were too smudged to be of value.
Then we have eight good ones somehow, out of 66 sets.

The math is off, etc.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on October 11, 2020, 11:23:06 AM
I just had a document that I can't find and will have to search it out in the last 302. they make a claim of 70 prints in that document. I'm not sure how these numbers change over time. a lot of cold cases get solved looking into the old files. it makes it harder when they don't match.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on October 11, 2020, 01:41:04 PM
Make that approx. 80 prints..
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on October 11, 2020, 01:48:24 PM
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Make that approx. 80 prints..

Thats 5/16/78 so did it come from Part 51 ?  You might want to stick that in the Vault ...

Every page in every pdf has a Part #, Page #, and at the bottom of each page lower right is an FBI number: example DB Cooper 20606 which happens to be D.B. Cooper PDF number: Part 50 of 50- page 013.

Without these numbers nobody can find anything!   
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on October 11, 2020, 02:45:17 PM
How to pack and unpack an FBI FOIA pdf:

The FBI has Adobe software that photographs every FD-302 page in a release and assembles these photos/pages into a pdf. 

Each pdf has a release number, like "Part 51" , and each page/photo in the pdf has a page number, say 031.

In the bottom right hand corner of every page is an FBI filing number, like "DB Cooper 21209".

To unpack an FOIA pdf, use Adobe or similar software that extracts each individual page/photo from the pdf and dumps these photos into a folder. Each extracted page will have a unique number like: "D.B. Cooper Part 51 of 51-104".

Here is an example attached. Note the pdf Part # and page # extracted from pdf Part 51. In the lower right hand corner of this page is the FBI filing number for this page which is: DB Cooper 21209.

I hope this helps! 

Without going through this process and a common set of references to FBI 302s, searching them and referencing them is going to be stuck in total confusion from here on out. Its your choice! There has to be a common filing system everyone uses.  ;) 

Software is your friend in this matter! At minimum, all references to 302 pages should include (a) Part number, and (b) FBI filing number found in the lower right hand corner of every page. Those two numbers alone will help people find the FOIA release number and 302 people are referencing . . . this is why snippets from 302 pages are nearly a waste of time.   
 
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on October 11, 2020, 05:46:22 PM
Here is the claim of 70 prints...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on October 11, 2020, 06:50:29 PM
I realize the numbering on the PDF's..some are older that were not dated and when I post a file nothing is left out from the pages above or below or I include them in my comments..
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on October 11, 2020, 11:43:05 PM
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Here is the claim of 70 prints...

Here is the whole 302 ...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on October 12, 2020, 12:25:21 AM
Correct, and it has several other things on it not related to the prints. that was the subject or topic of that post. if I wanted to involve the DNA into the comment I would of posted all the info that was there...even the 302's are partial and subjects resurface 50 pages into the PDF.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on October 12, 2020, 01:50:38 AM
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Correct, and it has several other things on it not related to the prints. that was the subject or topic of that post. if I wanted to involve the DNA into the comment I would of posted all the info that was there...even the 302's are partial and subjects resurface 50 pages into the PDF.

Im not criticising, just commenting. It sounds like 70 prints or specimens were in need of processing ? And they wanted to try a new automated system..    What have they doing between 1971 and 1998 ? A lot of suspects have been eliminated based on some core set of prints, some 7 or 8 in number in the old system? What makes the new automated system better? ... 
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on October 12, 2020, 06:31:13 AM
The old system was done by hand or eye in this case. that must of backed the up considerably. probably like the DNA today. they have to wait a period for the results. the new system gets fed into a computer that comes up with the hits.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on October 12, 2020, 08:55:22 PM
New episode out now. DB Cooper was Mormon with Steven Rinehart. Some good stuff in this one.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-mormon-steven-rinehart/

Enjoy!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 13, 2020, 03:37:16 AM
VERY interesting, Darren. Steven is so easy to listen to - he's a real professional radio guy.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 13, 2020, 08:28:14 AM
I was intrigued to discover how many amateur radio licensees there were in the Cooper Vortex. I, Georger, Snow, Sluggo and many others. Same for lawyers. I, Galen Cook, Richard Tosaw and now Steven Reinhardt among them. Incidentally, Reinhardt and I are members of the federal patent bar, both having passed the exam that allows us to practice before the USPTO in patent matters. Curious clusters of Cooperites sharing professions and hobbies.

Wonder what became of Galen’s planned book? The 50th anniversary of Cooper’s skyjack and various media productions will create a lot of new interest in the case. Good time to publish. 

377
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on October 13, 2020, 09:20:20 AM
I never had a ham license but did venture into the 10 meter bands back in the 80's. certain CB base radio's could be modified to go into 10 meters. the President Washington was the best. they had a PLL circuit (phase locked loop) that could be jumped giving hundreds of 10 meter freqs.

I had a VFO that could venture outside of 11 meters but not far and can't recall the frequencies reached. also had a Black Cat linear amplifier (2,000 watts) with a Maverick 250 to kick start the Black Cat. these were old school tube type. nothing could bet the quality of a tube amp. had a D-104 Golden Eagle desktop mic and a three element beam antenna. the fear of the FCC coming after you was starting to fade in the 80's. the only problems I had was bleeding over onto televisions in the area. made a lot of friends over the years through radio's. some continue to this day. then, much like the internet you had agitators. we built a direction finder and would locate them and "pin there coax" . when they keyed up the SWR's would be off the chart and fry the finals in the radio. these were guys who keyed up trying to "walk over you" or shut the channel down by keying the mic for hours. radio version of a troll.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 13, 2020, 06:36:06 PM
I too, had a Ham radio receiver. Never got a license, nor transmitter.

As for Galen and his book, I think it is on a serious hold. Two reasons - his law practice in mal med is lucrative and fascinating. More problematic, I think, is the mind set that Galen has had for years that he needs to solve the case before he publishes, and that circumstance is far over the horizon it appears. So, he's stuck.

There may also be a woman involved, but I'm not sure on that. Of course that doesn't stop me from gossiping!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 14, 2020, 04:38:23 AM
Enjoyed your account of “freebanding” Shutter. We used modified President Grants with external PLL frequency controllers on commercial fishing boats for close range SSB and AM comms. When bored during voyages to or from the fishing grounds we’d shoot skip and talk to fellow radio outlaws. We didn’t use linear amps. The salt water ground and resonant vertical dipole antenna usually did the job on the 5-10 watts from the transceiver finals. Agree with you on tube amps. They can take a beating that will blow out their temperamental solid state relatives.

Most hams despise CBers and freebanders. I don’t mind them at all. Their conversations are usually far more entertaining than your typical ham QSO. Some of them are technically sharp too. Of course there are the bucket mouth dummies but they provide some entertainment as well.

73,
AF6IM
aka 377
www.parachutemobile.com


Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on October 14, 2020, 09:05:52 AM
What do you mean by a external PLL. are you referring to a VFO (variable frequency oscillator) ? the PLL is in the board.

Was you shooting skip on SSB with no power? I remember SSB had more power than AM. you could tweak a radio and get a little more wattage out of it.  if conditions are right you can skip on 4 watts. I remember Sunday's were always a skip shooting day.

My buddy had the Washington. this guy can do anything with electronics. I met him on the radio in the late 70's and been close friends ever since. he was pegging my meter and found out he was less than a quarter mile away from me. my first radio was a TRC-30a from Radio shack. we bought it in the early 70's so it only had 23 channels. that's why he gave me a VFO. I could venture into the extra channels added to AM but could go beyond. nothing compared to what my buddy could do. I later ended up with bigger and better equipment in the 80's. if not mistaken only a few models of the president line had PL circuits?

I will be moving this conversation out of this thread later today..
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 14, 2020, 09:23:00 AM
To answer Shutter’s questions.

Yes, essentially a VFO but it was not a free running drifty oscillator. It used the rig’s PLL synthesizer chip and just expanded the frequency range beyond CB limits.

Yeah, worked skip without external amps. The advantage provided by a steel hull ground immersed in ocean water is substantial.

On the 20M ham band I’ve worked East Coast statins from CA using
2-4 watts SSB. Did it once under a parachute canopy. Listen to
this link. Click on the audio track above the W3IUU QSL card. https://parachutemobile.wordpress.com/?s=Lloyd&submit=Search

377






Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on October 14, 2020, 09:25:50 AM
Yes, shooting skip is all about conditions. I had a Radio Shack walkie talkie with 3 watts and got heard a couple times shooting skip..

I remember the term CQ DX for trying to contact anyone on ssb..

AM skip I would say "skip land, skip land, unit 305 in south Florida wavin' hello"
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 14, 2020, 09:32:36 AM
If Cooper had an accomplice on the ground he could have easily established contact during canopy descent using then available CB walkie talkies. Do you concur Shutter?

Other than the LD Cooper story, I recall no other claimed use of skyjacker radio comms has been made.

377
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on October 14, 2020, 09:35:55 AM
I would have to say it's possible. depends on the walkie talkie and conditions. the good one I had would only work good in open area's. houses killed the signal. another friend had the same radio shack walkie talkie and we could barely hear each other a half mile away. but we were inside.

During decent, yes...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on October 14, 2020, 09:43:02 AM
The cheap walkie talkies had I believe a quarter watt. I had several as a kid and could barely reach the truckers behind us when we were on vacation traveling. I held up a sign asking him to turn to channel 14. that's the only channel they had.. :rofl:
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on November 01, 2020, 11:18:38 AM
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If Cooper had an accomplice on the ground he could have easily established contact during canopy descent using then available CB walkie talkies. Do you concur Shutter?

Other than the LD Cooper story, I recall no other claimed use of skyjacker radio comms has been made.

377

But would the accomplice have to be at least close to the LZ? If not, how far outside the LZ could he be to be able to have contact?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on November 01, 2020, 06:56:21 PM
The advantage is the altitude. the higher the better. this would be much better for 11 meter bands (CB radio) surrounding range. 10/20 meters (Ham) would probably work fine on the ground vs a CB radio..once on the ground it might be an issue if it's not a good CB walkie talkie but they would probably be able to communicate while coming down..
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: DBfan57 on November 14, 2020, 06:04:58 AM
On YouTube, the Cooper Vortex E6, (Cooper Is Alive), they go on about DNA at some point.  They say 3 comparisons have been done.  So with all the hype around Rackstraw and Reca why not compare their DNA to eliminate them?  Assuming they can be eliminated?  Or is it because they just do not have enough of it?   Those damn cigarettes. 

As far as to whether he can still be alive, its certainly possible, assuming the top suspects list is wrong and I personally have little faith in it.  But the clock is ticking and the window is close to shut, assuming the then young Mucklow and Shaffner were accurate in their guess of his age?  Best case mid 80s and worst case late 90s.  I would hope the money would give him motivation to take care of his health?  I hope he is alive.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on November 16, 2020, 06:18:02 PM
Marty's episode will be out very soon. Russell went to Mexico for his honeymoon, and my father-in-law died unexpectedly from cancer at 57 a week ago today, and now my mother-in-law is living in my office. It's been a rough few weeks.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: grapesofwrath on November 16, 2020, 08:03:15 PM
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Marty's episode will be out very soon. Russell went to Mexico for his honeymoon, and my father-in-law died unexpectedly from cancer at 57 a week ago today, and now my mother-in-law is living in my office. It's been a rough few weeks.

Family comes first. Best of luck with everything.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on November 16, 2020, 08:34:17 PM
My deepest condolences to your family, Darren.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: haggarknew on November 17, 2020, 04:33:10 PM
Sorry for your loss Darren.  Look forward to seeing your episode Marty!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 18, 2020, 03:31:37 AM
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Marty's episode will be out very soon. Russell went to Mexico for his honeymoon, and my father-in-law died unexpectedly from cancer at 57 a week ago today, and now my mother-in-law is living in my office. It's been a rough few weeks.

Whew. My condolences, Darren.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: hannahlili on November 18, 2020, 10:36:39 PM
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Marty's episode will be out very soon. Russell went to Mexico for his honeymoon, and my father-in-law died unexpectedly from cancer at 57 a week ago today, and now my mother-in-law is living in my office. It's been a rough few weeks.

i'm so sorry, i hope your family is doing alright
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on November 18, 2020, 11:47:07 PM
Sorry to hear this Darren. Prayers for you family.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on November 25, 2020, 11:59:50 PM
Thank you all for the kind words. In exchange I give you Marty's episode!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-audience-questions-martin-andrade/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on November 26, 2020, 12:47:28 PM
Thanks for the great episode, Darren,

Happy Thanksgiving all!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: hannahlili on November 26, 2020, 09:08:20 PM
i really liked the episode and i learned a lot but do you think you might answer other questions or do a part two?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on November 27, 2020, 09:41:55 AM
I might... ;)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 29, 2020, 11:45:47 PM
Just listened to the second Marty Andrade episode. It is excellent.

Marty- I didn't know you have become such a student of the case! Your knowledge is deep and comprehensive - it was a pleasure listening to you and Darren riff on the case - the Heisson Store robbery, palm prints, your Dad's eccentricities and contributions to your Cooper book, and more. In addition, it was a delight to hear two guys who are radio pros - articulate, very few "umms," or "Ya know's." The field reporters on NPR radio could (should) take lessons from you and Darren.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: hannahlili on November 30, 2020, 10:41:33 PM
hey darren and martin, so i made my parents listen to the part in the new episode where you talked about how you don't think tina or any of the flight crew was in on it, because after watching some stupid show they believed that they were in on it and it was an inside job and was able to change their minds
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 01, 2020, 01:29:08 AM
Thank Gawd.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on December 01, 2020, 11:04:57 AM
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Just listened to the second Marty Andrade episode. It is excellent.

Marty- I didn't know you have become such a student of the case! Your knowledge is deep and comprehensive - it was a pleasure listening to you and Darren riff on the case - the Heisson Store robbery, palm prints, your Dad's eccentricities and contributions to your Cooper book, and more. In addition, it was a delight to hear two guys who are radio pros - articulate, very few "umms," or "Ya know's." The field reporters on NPR radio could (should) take lessons from you and Darren.

I think I benefitted greatly from the editing process... Thanks regardless.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on December 01, 2020, 11:17:57 AM
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hey darren and martin, so i made my parents listen to the part in the new episode where you talked about how you don't think tina or any of the flight crew was in on it, because after watching some stupid show they believed that they were in on it and it was an inside job and was able to change their minds

There was a fictional TV show a few years back called "Leverage". One of the episodes was called "The D.B. Cooper Job". That was pretty much what they portrayed in that show. If I remember correctly Tina (don't recall if they used her real name or an alias), and Cooper were lovers and escaped with the money....until someone at the FBI figured it out years later. It was a pretty bad show. They even had Cooper wearing a hat during the hijacking, a Fedora if I remember correctly.

They make solving the case seem pretty damn easy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69gAVNMvvvY

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: hannahlili on December 01, 2020, 09:00:31 PM
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hey darren and martin, so i made my parents listen to the part in the new episode where you talked about how you don't think tina or any of the flight crew was in on it, because after watching some stupid show they believed that they were in on it and it was an inside job and was able to change their minds

There was a fictional TV show a few years back called "Leverage". One of the episodes was called "The D.B. Cooper Job". That was pretty much what they portrayed in that show. If I remember correctly Tina (don't recall if they used her real name or an alias), and Cooper were lovers and escaped with the money....until someone at the FBI figured it out years later. It was a pretty bad show. They even had Cooper wearing a hat during the hijacking, a Fedora if I remember correctly.

They make solving the case seem pretty damn easy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69gAVNMvvvY

yes that was what they watched! and they made me watch it with them and i told them the whole time that it was inaccurate and they told me to be quiet when they barely know shit about db cooper other than the fact that he hijacked/jumped out of a plane. not that i have as much knowledge as you guys do since you guys have access to a lot more stuff than i do but i feel like i know a lot.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on December 13, 2020, 08:19:46 PM
New episode out now! DB Cooper was not successful with Chris “Chaucer” Cunningham. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-not-successful-chris-cunningham/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on December 13, 2020, 11:27:20 PM
A few things heard on the podcast..

The one thing me and Flyjack have always agreed on is the possibility the placard didn't come from 305. FJ found dozens of safety cards surrounding the rear stairs. none have been found showing the emergency release. recently, I noticed looking at the plane after it landed that the stairs were down and locked. had Cooper used the emergency system the stairs would no longer lock. then, FJ posted a picture showing the inside of the plane and the emergency system was not on 305. these are critical problems validating the placard came from 305.

The part found north of the placard was not described as fiberglass. it was described as a part and not a piece of a larger part.

The Air Force map. the Air Force had to track every plane in the sky marking them friend or foe. they also had the civilian radar that airports use across the country. I'm not sure where the data came from in actually plotting the map. the sage radar had limited memory but could recall an event.

Chris, don't be discouraged with presenting things. I know how you feel. I released the first files (302's) surrounding the flight crew and the response was nothing to speak about..
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on December 14, 2020, 12:20:31 AM
I think a lot of people overlook the fact of Cooper being a criminal. I think it was a Facebook post Marla Cooper made when someone asked her her Uncle being Cooper. her response was "isn't it great". personally, I find that offensive IMHO.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on December 14, 2020, 02:19:47 AM
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New episode out now! DB Cooper was not successful with Chris “Chaucer” Cunningham. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-not-successful-chris-cunningham/

Excellent job by both parties.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on December 14, 2020, 04:49:15 AM
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FJ found dozens of safety cards surrounding the rear stairs. none have been found showing the emergency release. recently, I noticed looking at the plane after it landed that the stairs were down and locked. had Cooper used the emergency system the stairs would no longer lock. then, FJ posted a picture showing the inside of the plane and the emergency system was not on 305.

As I always say, I'm not a dedicated researcher, I don't read all the files and what-not, I have no reason to refute any of that research. However, something doesn't jive, and that is the 'pressure bump' from the door recoiling and slamming shut momentarily after Cooper jumps. If the door is still connected to the hydraulic system, then that would dampen the door's movement and prevent it from recoiling and slamming shut and creating that pressure bump. And that is exactly what is seen in that video you posted the other day from the Treat Williams movie. When the stunt guy jumps, the door doesn't slam shut, it just moves up a bit in the dampened fashion from being connected to the hydraulics. That there was the pressure bump from the door slamming shut when Cooper jumped would seem to indicate that it's disconnected from the hydraulics. But if that emergency disconnect doesn't exist on 305...   Not sure how to reconcile that.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on December 14, 2020, 09:23:51 AM
When you look at the test drop photo's the door doesn't close all the way either. speeds of 150 vs 170 could be a factor with the difference in recoil. we now have photo's from the inside and outside view of the stairs and the control box with no indication the emergency system was installed on 305. I'm guessing the stuntman was probably close to Coopers weight. some of the 727's added the feature later. even if the release was in the main control box we would see it in the interior photo's from the test flight. the crew was obviously in the front of the plane. the term slamming shut isn't an observation but one of sound and what could be heard and physically felt?

Another clip from the movie is just as interesting. it shows Robert Duvall pulling the stairs down and they don't lock. this implies the stairs were in a free fall position.

..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxPvp8mMYtE&ab_channel=LionsgateVOD
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on December 14, 2020, 11:08:46 AM
It was an honor to be on the podcast. Darren was terrific, and I encourage any of you who have been invited to go on.

I'm hardly on the level of Cooper knowledge as the rest of you, and many of you are far more worthy of presenting your case than I am.

Since I don't have a suspect or theory I was hoping to use my episode to talk about the basic facts of the case and lay out what i think it the most likely scenario. As I said on the podcast, I'm prepared to be wrong.

Again, thank you, Darren.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: grapesofwrath on December 14, 2020, 06:40:03 PM
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I think a lot of people overlook the fact of Cooper being a criminal. I think it was a Facebook post Marla Cooper made when someone asked her her Uncle being Cooper. her response was "isn't it great". personally, I find that offensive IMHO.

Well said, Shutter. If my grandfather was being promoted as Cooper, I would be trying to clear his name, not spinning it as a positive. The Cooper case is extremely fascinating, but Cooper should not be venerated as a saint.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 14, 2020, 06:41:57 PM
Also, the Cooper family would have legal entanglements after the fact for hiding LD, or not talking to LE.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on December 14, 2020, 09:21:23 PM
Good podcast, well down Chaucer and Darren.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on December 14, 2020, 09:28:08 PM
Good timing on this one as it gave me something to listen to on my drive to West Virginia today. I enjoyed. Chaucer has many of the same views as I do, but I greatly disagree with him and Darren on one thing: If given the choice, I'd much rather know who Cooper was as opposed to knowing everything that happened. If you know who he was, you would probably be able to fill in a lot of those blanks. Plus - and this is a huge plus - if we knew for certain who Cooper was, we wouldn't have to continually hear from the suspect pushers.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Lynn on December 15, 2020, 04:27:43 PM
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Marty's episode will be out very soon. Russell went to Mexico for his honeymoon, and my father-in-law died unexpectedly from cancer at 57 a week ago today, and now my mother-in-law is living in my office. It's been a rough few weeks.
My deepest condolences to your family, Darren.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: haggarknew on December 17, 2020, 05:28:24 PM
Finally got the time to listen to the podcast with Chaucer. Really enjoyed it! Great job Darren and Chaucer! Sorry I missed your post about the tie and the metallurgy. I would love to hear more about this.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on December 21, 2020, 08:07:56 PM
New episode out today - DB Cooper had already been covered with Brendan Koerner author of The Skies Belong Us.

Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-had-already-been-covered-brendan-i-koerner/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on December 21, 2020, 09:49:01 PM
About time you had some decent guests on...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on December 22, 2020, 03:43:28 AM
How about Tina? Bob Fuhriman? They were on the BBC thingy.

Or Larry Carr? He's our friend on Facebook. What are friends for, eh?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: fcastle866 on December 22, 2020, 01:22:13 PM
Darren: Did Arthur Friedberg get back to you on if the serial numbers on bills were recorded right before they were destroyed?  At about 8:33 into the podcast he says he does not know if the Treasury does that.  He actually says that a couple of times.  He offers to get with the BEP (Bureau of Engraving and Printing) to confirm.  I know RB has had some contact with someone who works there and they say that serial numbers were not recorded.

I just listened to the podcast again.  I thought he was a great guest, and is clearly an expert on money.  However, he states a few times that he really does not know much about the Cooper case.  His theory hinges on the money being in as bad condition as the Ingram bills, and therefore these would raise a flag if they were spent. 

Not knowing if the BEP/Mint/Treasury etc. records serial numbers seems to create a gap.  He thinks the money would have shown up, but I did not hear any logic as to how someone would have actually found the bills, except when he mentions them being spent in huge lots.

I've talked to some money experts, and find them to be very useful in terms of things such as how many of each denomination were produced, how long money stays in circulation, where money could have been spent outside of the US, etc.  However, you can be an expert in money, but that still does not mean that people were looking hard for these bills.

I took some notes and can respond more at some point, but I'm mainly curious as to what he says about the serial numbers being recorded.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on December 22, 2020, 03:35:27 PM
He did get back to me, the BEP didn't check serial numbers until the late 90s early 2000s. Even then it was still only a minority of the bills.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 17, 2021, 12:22:40 AM
When's the Safecracker interview gonna air? He's busting my chops to listen to it!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on February 17, 2021, 11:27:02 PM
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When's the Safecracker interview gonna air? He's busting my chops to listen to it!

So PLF is still around and working on Cooper? 

Can you cite four of PLF's conclusions about the money find based on his work ?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 18, 2021, 02:12:32 AM
1. Yes.
2. No.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on February 19, 2021, 08:13:59 PM
Next episode should be out soon, Russell may break it into 2 parts since its over 4 hours long.  ;D

I'm putting my nose back to the grindstone after a few months off, it's been a rough year lol.

I'd like to let the following people know that they always have an open invitation to come on the show, and I'll do whatever it takes to make it happen. In no particular order;
Shutter
georger
Flyjack
haggarknew
Parrotheadvol

They all already know this, but maybe you can tell them how much you'd like to see it happen as well.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 19, 2021, 10:33:03 PM
How about a panel discussion with the above?

I also recommend - strongly - that you have Geoffrey Gray on the show.

If you are able to convince him to do it, please grill him on how he obtain his unfiltered access to the FBI and their files back in 2009-2011. All that he will tell me, despite my many confrontations, is: "A good journalist knows how to develop and keep his sources."

How about Tina? Maybe if you contact Andrea Marks you might have an in. T's getting downright chatty these days.

Speaking of Tina, have you seen Rob Bertrand's film script on Norjak? It's excellent.

For those outside the inner circle of Cooper Country denizens, Rob is the owner of the DB Cooper Escape Room in Vancouver, WA. I first heard about Rob when he and his Room made the news when a thief broke into the facility to steal computers and laptops, but then had to call 9-11 to get out. Arrest and jail was preferable to an eternal life in the REAL Cooper Vortex...

.... also, Rob picks up my tab every time I'm at the Victor-23 pub in Vancouver.... just sayin', in the interest of full disclosure.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 19, 2021, 10:40:18 PM
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Next episode should be out soon, Russell may break it into 2 parts since its over 4 hours long.  ;D


Four hours with the Safecracker? Yougottabekiddingme!

It better be good!

Note: I couldn't even listen to me for four hours, and I'm a LOT more narcissistic than the Safecracker.

Lastly, I hope he talks a lot about Jo. I'd love to hear what his life is when he's with the Lady from Navarre.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on February 20, 2021, 05:12:02 AM
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Next episode should be out soon, Russell may break it into 2 parts since its over 4 hours long.  ;D


Four hours with the Safecracker? Yougottabekiddingme!

It better be good!

Note: I couldn't even listen to me for four hours, and I'm a LOT more narcissistic than the Safecracker.

Lastly, I hope he talks a lot about Jo. I'd love to hear what his life is when he's with the Lady from Navarre.

More DB Cooper soap bubbles released into the wind...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on February 20, 2021, 07:19:52 PM
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Speaking of Tina, have you seen Rob Bertrand's film script on Norjak? It's excellent.

I just finished recording with Rob. :D
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on February 20, 2021, 07:43:52 PM
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Next episode should be out soon, Russell may break it into 2 parts since its over 4 hours long.  ;D

I'm putting my nose back to the grindstone after a few months off, it's been a rough year lol.

I'd like to let the following people know that they always have an open invitation to come on the show, and I'll do whatever it takes to make it happen. In no particular order;
Shutter
georger
Flyjack
haggarknew
Parrotheadvol

They all already know this, but maybe you can tell them how much you'd like to see it happen as well.
I strongly encourage all of the above to go on Darren’s podcast. He’s great. It’s also a wonderful repository for everything and everyone DB Cooper. If you care about the case and want to pass the knowledge and legacy on, then please appear.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on February 23, 2021, 12:57:42 PM
Thanks to some help from the one and only Shutter, it looks like we are going to have Martin McNally on the show. Anyone have any questions for him?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on February 23, 2021, 01:31:44 PM
The reason for doing the hijacking vs robbing a bank..
What he could see from the stairs or looking out the cabin windows.
Did he see the ground approaching..
How the money was attached to himself.
How long to plan the hijacking and what was involved.
How would he get the money out of the hot zone.
Did he give a specific route for the plane.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: fcastle866 on February 23, 2021, 01:55:13 PM
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Thanks to some help from the one and only Shutter, it looks like we are going to have Martin McNally on the show. Anyone have any questions for him?

This is great!  Looking forward to it.  Things I'd like to know.

How much did the DB Cooper hijacking motivate him?  Did he learn anything from it?
Does he think Cooper could have survived the exit, the pull, the descent, the landing, etc.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on February 23, 2021, 02:02:06 PM
1. Does he attribute his survival to luck? Or is the difficulty of skydiving as a first timer overstated?

2. What were the precise conditions of his jump as he remembers them and how do they differ from those of the Cooper jump?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on February 23, 2021, 03:31:14 PM
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Thanks to some help from the one and only Shutter, it looks like we are going to have Martin McNally on the show. Anyone have any questions for him?

Where were you on the afternoon of November 24, 1971? Lol.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: haggarknew on February 23, 2021, 04:03:48 PM
If he HAD to do it again, what would he do different?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 23, 2021, 05:12:45 PM
Questions for Mr. McNally:

1. What was your prison experience like?

2. Did you benefit from it in any manner? For instance, fellow Cooper Copycat, Robb Heady, says that he used his prison time to recover from his PTSD that developed in Vietnam, and to read a lot and grow mentally.

3. Have you apologized to the flight attendants and crew that you held hostage? If you have, what was their reaction. Or, if not, why not?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on February 23, 2021, 05:47:04 PM
Quote
I'll answer questions, maybe, as long as those don't require details about violence in prison; killings of guards & inmates. Federal Bureau of Prisons considered me: "worst of the worse".

I would be respectful in asking anything about his prison sentence. Martin wasn't an average inmate. he's a different breed and one of the reasons he was in for so long. Darren, you might want to find out how much of this he wishes to speak about publicly..he has told me a lot of things but I don't wish to make them public knowledge. IMO, he has paid his debt.

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on February 23, 2021, 07:52:13 PM
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Thanks to some help from the one and only Shutter, it looks like we are going to have Martin McNally on the show. Anyone have any questions for him?

Where were you on the afternoon of November 24, 1971? Lol.

Maybe an older brother  :rofl:
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: haggarknew on February 23, 2021, 09:20:50 PM
One more question...Do you have a favorite Cooper suspect?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on February 23, 2021, 09:59:09 PM
All good questions...nice to see the involvement. hopefully, Darren can fit them all in. hearing from copycats is about as close to Cooper as we can get.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on February 26, 2021, 11:32:16 AM
The two part episode with Tim Collins aka SafecrackingPLF aka Jo's Memory Man is out now. Thanks to audio Tim provided Russell and I with you'll get to hear Jo and Duane's own voices.

https://www.podbean.com/eu/pb-t8e5g-fbfbeb

Enjoy!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on February 26, 2021, 03:53:13 PM
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The two part episode with Tim Collins aka SafecrackingPLF aka Jo's Memory Man is out now. Thanks to audio Tim provided Russell and I with you'll get to hear Jo and Duane's own voices.

https://www.podbean.com/eu/pb-t8e5g-fbfbeb

Enjoy!

Not relevant to the DB Cooper hijacking case.  :(
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 26, 2021, 04:04:49 PM
You mean not relevant to Georger's investigation of the DB Cooper case, don't you?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on February 26, 2021, 04:12:57 PM
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You mean not relevant to Georger's investigation of the DB Cooper case, don't you?

Yes. You finally got something right - Congrats!  :congrats: :rofl:

You can explore the Jo Weber/Mars connexion if you want . . . . looking for some kind of bs that absorbs people's time and energy. Whatever suits your confrontational FRANCHISE. 
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on February 26, 2021, 07:33:44 PM
It was a good show, I've listened to it twice already. Tim is surprisingly compelling.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on February 27, 2021, 04:51:11 PM
I have an 8 hour drive into Ohio on Monday. I look forward to listening to it then.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on February 27, 2021, 10:26:27 PM
FBI documents dealing with Duane and Jo can be found in FBI #51.

My favorite is found on p163. The FBI talked with the guy who bought Duane's van and found the wallet with the alias IDs in it. He drove to Jo's house to give her Duane's wallet. When he got there, he found Jo brandishing a pistol at some construction workers who were presumably being too loud nearby. He, understandably, didn't stay long. Quite the character, she.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on February 28, 2021, 12:42:01 AM
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FBI documents dealing with Duane and Jo can be found in FBI #51.

My favorite is found on p163. The FBI talked with the guy who bought Duane's van and found the wallet with the alias IDs in it. He drove to Jo's house to give her Duane's wallet. When he got there, he found Jo brandishing a pistol at some construction workers who were presumably being too loud nearby. He, understandably, didn't stay long. Quite the character, she.

There it is - the real Jo.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on February 28, 2021, 03:50:43 AM
That was part of her; that part is ugly for sure.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on March 01, 2021, 08:32:33 PM
Our latest episode with Rob Bertrand is out now!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-coopers-escape-rob-bertrand/

Enjoy!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: EU on March 01, 2021, 10:20:40 PM
I just listened to the episode with Rob Bertrand...it was very entertaining. I encourage all to check it out. Cheers!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on March 18, 2021, 12:14:50 AM
Bruce is back for the 50th episode!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-and-the-fbi-bruce-a-smith/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: EU on March 18, 2021, 09:43:11 AM
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Bruce is back for the 50th episode!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-and-the-fbi-bruce-a-smith/

Good stuff Darren. Bruce always kicks ass.

On a side note...WTF...walked to Tena Bar and slept outside? It's stories like these that make Bruce one-of-a-kind.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 18, 2021, 03:55:54 PM
... AND I froze that night...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on March 19, 2021, 10:59:07 AM
I look forward to this one. I'm going to save it for my drive to Minnesota in a couple of weeks.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 19, 2021, 06:15:24 PM
From Tennessee? That's a long drive!

Whatcha gonna listen on the way back? That might be the time for the four-hour marathon with Safecracking.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: DBfan57 on March 21, 2021, 10:10:22 AM
I just heard the podcast from Bertrand.  Very good.   The bottom line being, like he said, it will take someone coming out of the woodwork with a $20 bill from the skyjacking and he also thinks it would be a miracle if he is still out there.  It certainly is possible. He does believe like many of us that he did survive the jump.  When they lost those cigarettes they lost any DNA resolution.

But let's say he is alive.  There is one thing that could possibly draw him out.  Bait if you will.  That would be Tina Mucklow. He was very nice and spent lots of time with her. So if she somehow reached out where he was able to answer her in a safe way, I would think that would be very tempting for him to let her know he made it and all?  A $20 bill.  I wonder if he was wearing after shave?  You know how smell can ring memory bells.  So he was very close to her.  And one of the parachutes might help to prove it too.  So many false confessions do not help.  So Bertrand did a film on the skyjacking?  How was it Bruce?  If you happen to read this?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on March 21, 2021, 10:18:30 AM
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From Tennessee? That's a long drive!

Whatcha gonna listen on the way back? That might be the time for the four-hour marathon with Safecracking.

It's a long drive, but not as long as the drive I made a few months ago to Pocatello, Idaho. I actually made that one twice in 3 weeks.

As far as the ride back, I have a book downloaded from that last Idaho trip that I never listened to, so that's probably a good time for that. I already listened to the Safecracking episodes. I enjoyed them, but I just can't get on board with Duane Weber being Dan Cooper.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 21, 2021, 06:09:22 PM
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I just heard the podcast from Bertrand.  Very good.   The bottom line being, like he said, it will take someone coming out of the woodwork with a $20 bill from the skyjacking and he also thinks it would be a miracle if he is still out there.  It certainly is possible. He does believe like many of us that he did survive the jump.  When they lost those cigarettes they lost any DNA resolution.

But let's say he is alive.  There is one thing that could possibly draw him out.  Bait if you will.  That would be Tina Mucklow. He was very nice and spent lots of time with her. So if she somehow reached out where he was able to answer her in a safe way, I would think that would be very tempting for him to let her know he made it and all?  A $20 bill.  I wonder if he was wearing after shave?  You know how smell can ring memory bells.  So he was very close to her.  And one of the parachutes might help to prove it too.  So many false confessions do not help.  So Bertrand did a film on the skyjacking?  How was it Bruce?  If you happen to read this?

I don't know if Rob's film has been made. What I have seen is the manuscript, and it is excellent.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: DBfan57 on March 22, 2021, 09:20:45 AM
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I just listened to the episode with Rob Bertrand...it was very entertaining. I encourage all to check it out. Cheers!

After listening to his I listened to yours from 2019.  Sorry if its already somewhere on this site and if you chose to not answer, I understand, do you still feel as strongly about Sheridan Peterson?  But what I really want to know, is did Tina Mucklow ever take a look and more importantly, a listen to his voice?  And I take it you are not a believer that the comic book has much importance?  I apologize if these have been asked and answered a zillion times before.  I just cannot find it.  Of course he has passed away, so if its never been done she can still listen to him on tape if it exists.  I am a strong believer in voice recognition.  A voice is  like a fingerprint dont you think?  Maybe over years people have their voice get a bit lower in tone?  I am not sure if Robert Plant can hit the high notes he once could but his voice is sure going to be recognized.  Thanks , and you are a very good speaker.
Mucklow is the key with the lack of good DNA. She heard his voice more than anyone.   Oh yeah, and then there is the money.  Wherever it is.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 22, 2021, 07:29:40 PM
Petey's been recorded for a couple of interviews by the History Channel. Hopefully, Tina has had the gumption, or some producer has had some, to get her to listen to the whole docu. 2016's Case Closed and the 2020 thingie with Eric, they were both in it!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: EU on March 22, 2021, 07:55:28 PM
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I just listened to the episode with Rob Bertrand...it was very entertaining. I encourage all to check it out. Cheers!

After listening to his I listened to yours from 2019.  Sorry if its already somewhere on this site and if you chose to not answer, I understand, do you still feel as strongly about Sheridan Peterson?  But what I really want to know, is did Tina Mucklow ever take a look and more importantly, a listen to his voice?  And I take it you are not a believer that the comic book has much importance?  I apologize if these have been asked and answered a zillion times before.  I just cannot find it.  Of course he has passed away, so if its never been done she can still listen to him on tape if it exists.  I am a strong believer in voice recognition.  A voice is  like a fingerprint dont you think?  Maybe over years people have their voice get a bit lower in tone?  I am not sure if Robert Plant can hit the high notes he once could but his voice is sure going to be recognized.  Thanks , and you are a very good speaker.
Mucklow is the key with the lack of good DNA. She heard his voice more than anyone.   Oh yeah, and then there is the money.  Wherever it is.

I think there is a very real chance that Sheridan Peterson was DB Cooper.

There are a lot of circumstantial pieces of evidence that point to something being up. This circumstantial evidence includes:

1) Missing stamps and other activity in his passport--which I have photographed.
2) Revelations from his daughter that Sheridan's 2nd wife--the only person who can provide an alibi or implicate him--didn't die in 1977 as he told the FBI in 2003. Rather she is still alive today at 73 y/o.
3) His background at Boeing working on the 727, as well as smoke jumping and sport skydiving.
4) He has stated many things that are very suspect that relate to describing the parachutes and the bomb, in addition to several other things.
5) He is left-handed (I suspect DBC was left-handed), he was 45 y/o at the time of the skyjacking, he was 6' 1" tall, and he resembles the original sketch.
6) He has been very conflicted and very paranoid about his DNA, the FBI and other things that one would think unreasonable given an innocent person.
7) He has never been able to provide an alibi. Think about that one for a minute. He's accused of skyjacking a jet Thanksgiving Eve and cannot provide an alibi, and the one person who could provide the alibi (2nd wife) he lied to the FBI (a felony) about being dead.
8) Claimed to own cufflinks that matched the tie clip left behind.
9) His autobiographical book uses phrases similar to those used by DBC: "Let's get the show on the road," "No funny stuff." Not to mention, his book appears to describe the skyjacking metaphorically.

It isn't just me. Ask 377--or his wife--about their impressions of Sheridan. Ask Mary Jean Fryar, the FBI SA who interviewed Sheridan multiple times. Ask his ex-wife (Wife #1). There are others too.

All of this said, there is no smoking gun. Also, I've never been able to prove that Sheridan smoked even though Sailshaw claimed he did (of course, this may not matter if DBC wasn't actually a smoker).

I will say this: If Sheridan wasn't Cooper, then he was one unlucky guy in that so much pointed to him.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 22, 2021, 09:41:55 PM
Wow. If true, then I almost became DB Cooper's roommate!

Maybe I should use that as my teaser with agents?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: DBfan57 on March 25, 2021, 02:04:23 PM
So has Tina Mucklow been shown pics and heard Sheridan's voice?  That could be telling.  I just wonder if you all realize how big of a piece to the puzzle Tina is?  It sure does not seem that way with what i read here.  She was the star witness in this case!! She spent five damn hours with him!!!!!  Get a sound bite of his voice on tape and try and get her to listen to it.  If he was Cooper, it should ring a bell. 
So what did they cover with Mucklow in the 2016 interview?  I have never heard it?  Was she asked about the main suspects?  Sheridan? 
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 25, 2021, 09:19:48 PM
Tina has made four public appearances since leaving the convent in 1991:

1. Eugene Weekly, 2012, reporter: Paul Neevel. Tina did not discuss Norjak at all. Further, she said she retired from NWO "ten years" after the skyjacking, and flew mostly overseas routes in the latter part of her career. That would suggest that she would work with Kenny Christiansen at some point since he too, was working NWO Asian routes at that time.

2. History Channel's 2016 "DB Cooper - Case Closed?" Tina looked very "flat and blunted" emotionally on camera, but she did discuss seeing the bomb in the briefcase, and consoled Bill Rataczak when he started weeping as he recalled the night, saying, "Oh, Bill, that was so long ago." She looked at pix of Rackstraw and heard his voice and said, "Nope." She also said that researchers who are obsessed with her and concerned about her well-being, "need to get a life." (Thanks, Tina. See everyone, I know she cares about me...)

3. Minnow Production's 2020 docu: "The Mystery of DB Cooper," broadcast on BBC and HBO. Tina gave a very animated and earnest interview on camera, but did not see any pix or tapes, nor did she discuss Petey.

4. Rolling Stone magazine's 2021 feature profile by Andrea Marks. In this piece, Tina gave more details about all the pertinent details she had revealed before, but nothing new, really. However, she also took the time to declare that she is still angry at Cooper researchers who sat in their vehicle at her curb well after she had asked them to leave her premises... (Tina, such prolonged anger - it is ten years since I parked at your house - can mean ONLY one thing.... ahhh, sigh...)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robertrand on March 26, 2021, 06:41:23 AM
Thanks for the compliment, Bruce! The screenplay is currently called "The Sky Way." The title is based on a story related by Captain Scott's daughter at the last Cooper Con. The script is getting some positive buzz and I am very determined to get this made.

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I just heard the podcast from Bertrand.  Very good.   The bottom line being, like he said, it will take someone coming out of the woodwork with a $20 bill from the skyjacking and he also thinks it would be a miracle if he is still out there.  It certainly is possible. He does believe like many of us that he did survive the jump.  When they lost those cigarettes they lost any DNA resolution.

But let's say he is alive.  There is one thing that could possibly draw him out.  Bait if you will.  That would be Tina Mucklow. He was very nice and spent lots of time with her. So if she somehow reached out where he was able to answer her in a safe way, I would think that would be very tempting for him to let her know he made it and all?  A $20 bill.  I wonder if he was wearing after shave?  You know how smell can ring memory bells.  So he was very close to her.  And one of the parachutes might help to prove it too.  So many false confessions do not help.  So Bertrand did a film on the skyjacking?  How was it Bruce?  If you happen to read this?

I don't know if Rob's film has been made. What I have seen is the manuscript, and it is excellent.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on March 26, 2021, 11:16:28 PM
New episode out now!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-unsolved-case-files-tom-sullivan/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 27, 2021, 12:06:57 AM
Just bought the book while I was listening. Amazon sez they'll deliver Sunday!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 27, 2021, 12:44:55 AM
Darren, you mentioned on your Tom Sullivan podcast that new 302s verify some of the details in the Max Gunther book. What are those details? I gave up reading when I saw that Clara and DB buried a red and yellow parachute and that DB was wearing a heavy wool sweater when Clara found him.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: DBfan57 on March 27, 2021, 11:50:02 AM
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Tina has made four public appearances since leaving the convent in 1991:

1. Eugene Weekly, 2012, reporter: Paul Neevel. Tina did not discuss Norjak at all. Further, she said she retired from NWO "ten years" after the skyjacking, and flew mostly overseas routes in the latter part of her career. That would suggest that she would work with Kenny Christiansen at some point since he too, was working NWO Asian routes at that time.

2. History Channel's 2016 "DB Cooper - Case Closed?" Tina looked very "flat and blunted" emotionally on camera, but she did discuss seeing the bomb in the briefcase, and consoled Bill Rataczak when he started weeping as he recalled the night, saying, "Oh, Bill, that was so long ago." She looked at pix of Rackstraw and heard his voice and said, "Nope." She also said that researchers who are obsessed with her and concerned about her well-being, "need to get a life." (Thanks, Tina. See everyone, I know she cares about me...)

3. Minnow Production's 2020 docu: "The Mystery of DB Cooper," broadcast on BBC and HBO. Tina gave a very animated and earnest interview on camera, but did not see any pix or tapes, nor did she discuss Petey.

4. Rolling Stone magazine's 2021 feature profile by Andrea Marks. In this piece, Tina gave more details about all the pertinent details she had revealed before, but nothing new, really. However, she also took the time to declare that she is still angry at Cooper researchers who sat in their vehicle at her curb well after she had asked them to leave her premises... (Tina, such prolonged anger - it is ten years since I parked at your house - can mean ONLY one thing.... ahhh, sigh...)

Ha.  So  you basically stalked her?  Good work!  She needs to be stalked.  She is the damn star witness whether she likes it or not. So is this site going bye bye?  I notice after the log in it redirects to the new forum which I find no real discussion on yet.?  Or I just did not see it. So I guess Tina never has given a listen to the top suspects to see if any ring a bell?  Sounds like she wants to forget about DB Cooper and that is a shame and also in the case of Florence.  I assume she has gone off the grid also?  And not sure how much the 3rd stewardess knew?  Hancock?   Rarely mentioned.  I am surprised they never showed more interest in solving this.  That includes the late captain.  Even though I know he was hit by tragedy
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on March 27, 2021, 12:13:20 PM
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Darren, you mentioned on your Tom Sullivan podcast that new 302s verify some of the details in the Max Gunther book. What are those details? I gave up reading when I saw that Clara and DB buried a red and yellow parachute and that DB was wearing a heavy wool sweater when Clara found him.

 :'(
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on March 27, 2021, 05:08:39 PM
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Darren, you mentioned on your Tom Sullivan podcast that new 302s verify some of the details in the Max Gunther book. What are those details? I gave up reading when I saw that Clara and DB buried a red and yellow parachute and that DB was wearing a heavy wool sweater when Clara found him.

 :'(

Funny!  No doubt CPR had the 24 lb wool sweater in that 'little green paper bag' he produced when he came out of the lav. Like chefs, authors never fail to add spice to their recipes.  ;)

Blue eyes turn brown at age 50. Brown eyes turn red at age 431 in the burning bush, like in the Torah.  The little green paper bag had miracles in it. :)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 27, 2021, 10:00:38 PM
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Tina has made four public appearances since leaving the convent in 1991:

1. Eugene Weekly, 2012, reporter: Paul Neevel. Tina did not discuss Norjak at all. Further, she said she retired from NWO "ten years" after the skyjacking, and flew mostly overseas routes in the latter part of her career. That would suggest that she would work with Kenny Christiansen at some point since he too, was working NWO Asian routes at that time.

2. History Channel's 2016 "DB Cooper - Case Closed?" Tina looked very "flat and blunted" emotionally on camera, but she did discuss seeing the bomb in the briefcase, and consoled Bill Rataczak when he started weeping as he recalled the night, saying, "Oh, Bill, that was so long ago." She looked at pix of Rackstraw and heard his voice and said, "Nope." She also said that researchers who are obsessed with her and concerned about her well-being, "need to get a life." (Thanks, Tina. See everyone, I know she cares about me...)

3. Minnow Production's 2020 docu: "The Mystery of DB Cooper," broadcast on BBC and HBO. Tina gave a very animated and earnest interview on camera, but did not see any pix or tapes, nor did she discuss Petey.

4. Rolling Stone magazine's 2021 feature profile by Andrea Marks. In this piece, Tina gave more details about all the pertinent details she had revealed before, but nothing new, really. However, she also took the time to declare that she is still angry at Cooper researchers who sat in their vehicle at her curb well after she had asked them to leave her premises... (Tina, such prolonged anger - it is ten years since I parked at your house - can mean ONLY one thing.... ahhh, sigh...)

Ha.  So  you basically stalked her?  Good work!  She needs to be stalked.  She is the damn star witness whether she likes it or not. So is this site going bye bye?  I notice after the log in it redirects to the new forum which I find no real discussion on yet.?  Or I just did not see it. So I guess Tina never has given a listen to the top suspects to see if any ring a bell?  Sounds like she wants to forget about DB Cooper and that is a shame and also in the case of Florence.  I assume she has gone off the grid also?  And not sure how much the 3rd stewardess knew?  Hancock?   Rarely mentioned.  I am surprised they never showed more interest in solving this.  That includes the late captain.  Even though I know he was hit by tragedy

Yo, Fan Man. I did not stalk Tina. Please, that is a criminal offense, besides being ethically and journalistically repugnant.

Yes, I am closely following her public life. Yes, I agree that she has information that might be crucial to the Norjak investigation.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: DBfan57 on March 30, 2021, 12:44:41 PM
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Tina has made four public appearances since leaving the convent in 1991:

1. Eugene Weekly, 2012, reporter: Paul Neevel. Tina did not discuss Norjak at all. Further, she said she retired from NWO "ten years" after the skyjacking, and flew mostly overseas routes in the latter part of her career. That would suggest that she would work with Kenny Christiansen at some point since he too, was working NWO Asian routes at that time.

2. History Channel's 2016 "DB Cooper - Case Closed?" Tina looked very "flat and blunted" emotionally on camera, but she did discuss seeing the bomb in the briefcase, and consoled Bill Rataczak when he started weeping as he recalled the night, saying, "Oh, Bill, that was so long ago." She looked at pix of Rackstraw and heard his voice and said, "Nope." She also said that researchers who are obsessed with her and concerned about her well-being, "need to get a life." (Thanks, Tina. See everyone, I know she cares about me...)

3. Minnow Production's 2020 docu: "The Mystery of DB Cooper," broadcast on BBC and HBO. Tina gave a very animated and earnest interview on camera, but did not see any pix or tapes, nor did she discuss Petey.

4. Rolling Stone magazine's 2021 feature profile by Andrea Marks. In this piece, Tina gave more details about all the pertinent details she had revealed before, but nothing new, really. However, she also took the time to declare that she is still angry at Cooper researchers who sat in their vehicle at her curb well after she had asked them to leave her premises... (Tina, such prolonged anger - it is ten years since I parked at your house - can mean ONLY one thing.... ahhh, sigh...)

Ha.  So  you basically stalked her?  Good work!  She needs to be stalked.  She is the damn star witness whether she likes it or not. So is this site going bye bye?  I notice after the log in it redirects to the new forum which I find no real discussion on yet.?  Or I just did not see it. So I guess Tina never has given a listen to the top suspects to see if any ring a bell?  Sounds like she wants to forget about DB Cooper and that is a shame and also in the case of Florence.  I assume she has gone off the grid also?  And not sure how much the 3rd stewardess knew?  Hancock?   Rarely mentioned.  I am surprised they never showed more interest in solving this.  That includes the late captain.  Even though I know he was hit by tragedy

Yo, Fan Man. I did not stalk Tina. Please, that is a criminal offense, besides being ethically and journalistically repugnant.

Yes, I am closely following her public life. Yes, I agree that she has information that might be crucial to the Norjak investigation.
I know that Bruce.  I was simply joking with you
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 30, 2021, 04:26:28 PM
Whew...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robertrand on March 31, 2021, 07:06:50 PM
Update on my DB Cooper screenplay....The Sky Way was chosen as a Quarter Finalist in the Screencraft Screenwriting Fellowship contest and will move on to the next round. The script has also been optioned by a director. Which means they have the right to pursue financing to get it made. One can hope!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 31, 2021, 08:10:22 PM
Big congrats, Rob. Well deserved, too, as I have read the script.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on March 31, 2021, 09:29:09 PM
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Update on my DB Cooper screenplay....The Sky Way was chosen as a Quarter Finalist in the Screencraft Screenwriting Fellowship contest and will move on to the next round. The script has also been optioned by a director. Which means they have the right to pursue financing to get it made. One can hope!

This is awesome. Do you realize that this could possibly be the "First-ever, dramatic feature film to be done on Cooper"??
I hope it happens.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on March 31, 2021, 09:57:49 PM
Isn't Tina appearing or working with producers on a film?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on March 31, 2021, 10:34:38 PM
I volunteer to play Barb Dayton.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 01, 2021, 04:22:28 AM
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Update on my DB Cooper screenplay....The Sky Way was chosen as a Quarter Finalist in the Screencraft Screenwriting Fellowship contest and will move on to the next round. The script has also been optioned by a director. Which means they have the right to pursue financing to get it made. One can hope!

This is awesome. Do you realize that this could possibly be the "First-ever, dramatic feature film to be done on Cooper"??
I hope it happens.

I agree. And it only took 50 years. But Rob, you may be "Da man to get 'er done."
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on April 01, 2021, 08:43:21 AM
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Isn't Tina appearing or working with producers on a film?

Was that something that was in the Rolling Stone article? It seems like I did see that somewhere now that you mention it.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robertrand on April 02, 2021, 01:10:30 AM
Tina mentioned working with a screenwriter in the Rolling Stone article. My heart sank a little when I read that because I've been researching and writing this screenplay for 5 years. My script has been done for 2 years now. I'm hoping to develop a relationship with Tina. I'd love the entire flight crew to read it. My script is a beat by beat procedural, focused on the flight crew, NW Orient employees and the FBI who assisted in procuring the ransom demands. Tina and the flight crew are the heroes of my story. I tried my best not to paint Dan Cooper as a hero. (Though I've received countless professional feedback to make him a hero.) It's based off the 302's and flight transcripts as close as possible. I have taken some dramatic license, mostly with the conversations between Tina and Cooper. That's really the only black hole in the transcripts. If anyone has a lead on how to contact Tina or any of the other Flight Crew, I'd be much appreciative.

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Isn't Tina appearing or working with producers on a film?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: DBfan57 on April 04, 2021, 12:16:31 PM
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Tina mentioned working with a screenwriter in the Rolling Stone article. My heart sank a little when I read that because I've been researching and writing this screenplay for 5 years. My script has been done for 2 years now. I'm hoping to develop a relationship with Tina. I'd love the entire flight crew to read it. My script is a beat by beat procedural, focused on the flight crew, NW Orient employees and the FBI who assisted in procuring the ransom demands. Tina and the flight crew are the heroes of my story. I tried my best not to paint Dan Cooper as a hero. (Though I've received countless professional feedback to make him a hero.) It's based off the 302's and flight transcripts as close as possible. I have taken some dramatic license, mostly with the conversations between Tina and Cooper. That's really the only black hole in the transcripts. If anyone has a lead on how to contact Tina or any of the other Flight Crew, I'd be much appreciative.

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Isn't Tina appearing or working with producers on a film?

Oh that is the biggie here.  Getting Tina to cooperate.  That would be HUGE.  And I say without science, she is the only one that can put a dent in this.  And I am for her trying to recognize his voice.  By doing a blind comparison to see if it "rings a bell".    Other than that, I wish you  luck.  I heard your podcast and it was excellent. 
So this may be my last post as I do not know of any way to enter the new site without being invited?  Good luck to all
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on April 04, 2021, 12:52:40 PM
New site?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on August 19, 2021, 08:25:19 PM
My screenplay careens around a group of cooper nuts and an FBI agent who also is caught up in the investigation of the Blackwater murders in Iraq.

There's plenty of drugs, alcohol, sex and marginalized "Breaking-Bad" style characters, including an ex-NSA engineer who worked with the Israelis on the code that was injected into the Iraqi centrifuges.

At one point, when the group discusses hacking Google to be able to use Google computers  to search the fbi datacenters directly..someone says "But isn't that dangerous?"

...a character retorts:

"A guy writes his code and gets arrested, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

Basically: max drama. That's what we need: more drama, fewer rubber bands. :)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on August 19, 2021, 11:49:37 PM
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My screenplay careens around a group of cooper nuts and an FBI agent who also is caught up in the investigation of the Blackwater murders in Iraq.

There's plenty of drugs, alcohol, sex and marginalized "Breaking-Bad" style characters, including an ex-NSA engineer who worked with the Israelis on the code that was injected into the Iraqi centrifuges.

At one point, when the group discusses hacking Google to be able to use Google computers  to search the fbi datacenters directly..someone says "But isn't that dangerous?"

...a character retorts:

"A guy writes his code and gets arrested, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

Basically: max drama. That's what we need: more drama, fewer rubber bands. :)

funny! I agree  ;)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on August 26, 2021, 08:40:11 PM
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My screenplay careens around a group of cooper nuts and an FBI agent who also is caught up in the investigation of the Blackwater murders in Iraq.

There's plenty of drugs, alcohol, sex and marginalized "Breaking-Bad" style characters, including an ex-NSA engineer who worked with the Israelis on the code that was injected into the Iraqi centrifuges.

At one point, when the group discusses hacking Google to be able to use Google computers  to search the fbi datacenters directly..someone says "But isn't that dangerous?"

...a character retorts:

"A guy writes his code and gets arrested, and you think that of me? No! I am the one who knocks!"

Basically: max drama. That's what we need: more drama, fewer rubber bands. :)

Does this mean I shouldn't bother asking you to come on the show? If you'd like to come on let me know, I'd love to have you on.

I'm still waiting on georger, Flyjack, and Parrothead to make an appearance.

I've got a few episodes lined up and one that will be released as soon as I get it back from Russell. I had the creator of the Canadian Dan Cooper (comic book) doc scheduled, but he's since ghosted me. Bummer.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on August 27, 2021, 06:54:09 PM
How about Bob Fuhriman? He was pretty chatty with me when I called him a few months ago. John Detlor might do it, too. These two would take the sting out of waiting another year for Larry Carr...

..or Dorwin Schreuder? He even talks with Georger, so not only he definitely going to Heaven, he's going to the Cooperville Hall of Fame.

If ya need contact info, give me a call.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on September 02, 2021, 09:25:11 PM
New episode out now!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-in-color-george-mckeon/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on September 03, 2021, 02:32:25 AM
I liked it. It's two guys - George and Darren - just hanging out and talking Cooper. Good times. Great chat.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on September 30, 2021, 04:52:26 PM
Darren hasn’t stopped by and mentioned it, but he has a new episode out. He interviews Liza Morado, author of Rat on a Rat. Her suspect is interesting to say the least and she is absolutely a character.

I learned one thing from this episode:  if anyone is mean to you, just write a letter to the Department of Justice about them.  ;D
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on September 30, 2021, 11:24:42 PM
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Darren hasn’t stopped by and mentioned it, but he has a new episode out. He interviews Liza Morado, author of Rat on a Rat. Her suspect is interesting to say the least and she is absolutely a character.

I learned one thing from this episode:  if anyone is mean to you, just write a letter to the Department of Justice about them.  ;D

 :) :)     ;)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 01, 2021, 05:07:53 PM
A DBC article that just published in Seattle Metropolitan magazine:

Seattle Met, 2021
https://www.seattlemet.com/news-and-city-life/db-cooper-hijacking-unsolved-true-crime-washington-state

Is D.B. Cooper Still on the Run?

Fifty years ago a mysterious criminal parachuted out of an airliner and into legend. An FBI agent, a self-trained scientist, and an outsider theorist have all dedicated years to unraveling the Northwest’s iconic puzzle. But can you catch a myth?

By Allison Williams Illustrations by Joseph Laney Updated September 27, 2021

One minute, Dan Cooper was a real man. Of course, “Dan Cooper” may not have been the name on his birth certificate, but his body was corporeal enough as he stood in a Boeing 727-100 on November 24, 1971. A stairway dangled dangerously from the belly of the near-empty airliner flying over southwestern Washington. No one knows whether he leapt confidently off those open steps from 10,000 feet in the air, or maybe closed his eyes and inched downward into the storm outside. But exit he did, and in that moment birthed something new: one of Washington’s biggest legends.
Fifty years later, we call that question mark D.B. Cooper, and there’s nothing person-like about him anymore. The criminal-shaped hole of D.B. Cooper—the initials arose from a reporter’s transcription error—filled with accusation and acclaim, suspicion and swagger, overflowing with America’s runaway imagination. Countless lives have been shaped by the pursuit of one measly criminal who made off with $200,000.

The broad strokes of the crime were familiar enough, taking place in the midst of the golden era of skyjacking. Hijackers captured more than 150 American flights between 1961 and 1972; so common was the practice, and Cuba so often the criminal’s destination, that U.S.-based airliners carried landing instructions for Havana’s airport. Ransoms were so common that Seattle’s Seafirst Bank had earmarked currency for the occasion.

So when passenger 18C flashed what looked like a bomb on Flight 305, en route from Portland to Seattle the day before Thanksgiving of 1971, the flight crew was alarmed but not totally surprised. They complied with the man’s demands, landing the plane at Sea-Tac to trade the passengers for the cash and parachutes he requested. Gathered in the cockpit after taking off again, the crew felt a bump around 8:13pm, just north of Vancouver. They found little trace of Cooper or cash when they landed in Reno two hours later.
 
In those first few days of the Cooper mythos, the world knew him as an ordinary criminal on the run. Law enforcement flew planes southwest of Mount St. Helens, eying the thick forest for a parachute caught in the trees or a drifter holed up in a cabin. An assistant U.S. attorney who happened to be a passenger on Flight 305 told The Seattle Times, “I hope we’ll have a quick prosecution of this case.” But no sign brought law enforcement closer to a figure already morphing from man to cipher.

The past five decades have logged hundreds of suspects, multiple copycats, and a curious obsession from the general public. D.B. Cooper has a way of worming into people’s lives and professional spheres, the very mystery of his identity, motive, and ultimate fate weaving itself out of one century and unfurling into the next.

The Agent: Larry Carr
 
In the basement of the Federal Bureau of Investigation’s downtown Seattle headquarters, sometime in the mid-2000s, one agent descends to the file room to dig through old paperwork. He’s lost in administrivia for hours, paging through typewritten reports bound in manila folders with metal tabs.
Special Agent Larry Carr could be Hollywood’s classic G-man. A rectangular jaw centers on a squared-off head, shoulders at near-perfect right angles. But Carr speaks with ease and humor; he’ll joke that his forays into the Cooper files, now almost two decades in the past, took place where the FBI secrets its proof of space aliens.

It wasn’t merely the information that fascinated Carr, the interviews and the evidence reports and the charts of the Victor 23 flight path of Flight 305. He was riveted by even the documentation.
“How did they get anything done?” he wonders of a bureau in the last six months of J. Edgar Hoover’s definitive reign, of formality and typewritten reports. Back then the very layout of an FBI agent’s desk was prescribed, down to the position of the pencils and blotter and phone.

Carr calls himself “a bit more free-spirited” than our standard FBI agent; after all, in 2004 he actually begged to be put on the D.B. Cooper case, a hoary unsolved crime with no new leads. The agent figured he’d make quick work of the then-33-year-old case by using DNA evidence to conclusively implicate one Richard McCoy Jr.

McCoy made delicious sense, his oval face reminiscent of the FBI’s sketch of Cooper. Better, he executed a near-identical hijacking four months after Flight 305. And Carr had something the Hoover-era spooks never did, a DNA lab. Carr eyed the necktie worn by Cooper, a skinny JCPenney-bought clip-on that the hijacker had tossed aside during the crime.
What came next was the FBI version of a “wah-wah” trombone. FBI labs told Carr that the tie was too contaminated; before the era of DNA investigation, too many people had touched it. Plus Carr dug deeper into those yellowed files and realized that McCoy’s alibi was too solid. No “Real McCoy” headlines for Carr.

And yet he remained undaunted. Even as the FBI shifted its main mission to counterterrorism after 9/11, Carr was a criminal specialist who worked bank robberies, crimes usually solved through public tips. If Carr could reignite the case in the public eye, useful Cooper information would flow right to him. “I liken myself to Tom Sawyer having other people paint my fence,” says Carr now. “I could just sit back and drink lemonade.”

And so Carr got permission to do what the FBI is not exactly known for: share its secrets. In 2007, the bureau released a flurry of details of their investigation. Redacted suspect names litter the NORJAK files—the investigation named for “Northwest hijacking.” A 1973 report to the acting director of the FBI notes, “There are currently 588 suspects, 236 of whom have been eliminated.”
Carr’s Tom Sawyer insouciance led him to the natural arena for crime solving in the mid-2000s: the internet. A skydiving website called Dropzone—home to sports-related public forums—hosted a thread about Cooper’s infamous jump. Soon it garnered thousands of pages of theories and questions, infighting and skirmishes; your classic online forum. Carr made a profile—username “Ckret”—and joined the fray in September 2007.

It took Carr only two months to reveal his true identity. He answered questions on Dropzone and debated theories and minutiae, like the angle of the plane’s flaps. Or why, among the parachutes provided, Cooper selected an advanced military-grade parachute.  In one of his first 2007 posts he profiled Cooper: “He was also a ‘know-it-all.’ The type of person who would learn a few facts and then become an expert on the subject. One of those people who has just enough knowledge to be dangerous.”
 
Over the course of 14 months Ckret posted 522 times on Dropzone. He got to know the regulars, made jokes, spitballed what a D.B. Cooper reality show would entail. Crucially, Carr was convinced that a scientist outside the FBI could analyze one of the only pieces of evidence ever found after Cooper’s jump: $5,800 in twenty-dollar bills unearthed in 1980 by an eight-year-old boy on a Columbia River sandbar just north of Vancouver. The serial numbers matched the cash given to Cooper, but the worn bills offered no answers to how they got there. “It has not added up yet, but I am waiting,” wrote Ckret in a 2008 post.

But nothing, not the fast-pitched discussion on Dropzone, not even the citizen scientists Carr let study the D.B. Cooper evidence, offered him workable leads. In July 2016 the investigation was functionally shelved.

Carr doesn’t think the Cooper case will ever be solved. He’s sure the man died on November 24 moments after he jumped out of the plane, given the weather, the dark of the night, and a leap that took deft skydiving skills under the best of circumstances.
“I kind of apply Occam’s Razor to this,” he says now, the 50th anniversary falling a year before his retirement. “Whatever is the simplest explanation.” Still, he gets the draw. The Robin Hood mystique of it all. “You know, no one died. No one got hurt. It’s a mystery.”

The Theorist: Bruce Smith
 
In a Washington town so small it barely rates a label on Google Maps, a self-described “out of shape, grumpy”  journalist named Bruce Smith dances outside the Ariel Store Pub. The settlement of Ariel, about 30 miles north of Portland, boasts little more than a post office and a Pacific Power facility for the dam that creates Lake Merwin. And, of course, this gritty little bar, a no-frills tavern.

“D.B. Cooper, Where are You?” reads a red poster on the  ceiling. After all, estimates put his landing zone nearby. For decades the weekend after Thanksgiving meant D.B. Cooper Days, when bar owner Dona Elliott hired the same country band every year and hosted a Cooper lookalike contest.
Smith knew all the regulars, so deep were his ties to the oddball circle of amateur Cooper hunters. He can picture the old general store during 1971’s ground search—“dozens of FBI agents running around in their $400 suits and Italian shoes in the mud.” But by 2008 the annual event was a chance to dance and drink Black Butte Porter in the November drizzle. A party.

“We talk about the old days, we crack jokes, we make fun of each other. We get angry and spittle starts flying,” he says. There was Marla Cooper in attendance, sure her uncle L.D. was the true culprit. Geoffrey Gray, who wrote the bestseller Skyjack in 2010. Robb Heady, a copycat who successfully jumped out of a Boeing 727 but was soon apprehended. All Cooper, all the time. “Like being a kid in a toy store on Christmas Eve,” Smith says with a sigh.
Smith arrived in Washington state in the 1990s as a follower of Yelm’s J.Z. Knight and her metaphysical teachings; he’s always quested for answers. While working as a journalist in Eatonville, he stumbled upon the Cooper case and got hooked; now self-employed at his own Mountain News website, he chronicles the Cooper world.

Smith took to the same Dropzone forum frequented by Special Agent Carr. “It was the Cheers tavern, online, for me,” says Smith, a digital hangout for theorists—mostly men, he notes, despite the fact that true crime is hugely popular with women. Cooper, somehow, is a guy thing.
Smith pores over FBI inconsistencies. Where did the left-behind Raleigh brand cigarette butts end up? Who, exactly, sourced the parachutes given to the hijacker? For a keen observer with boundless imagination, Cooper is a choose-your-own adventure episode of The X-Files.

Like Carr, Smith has a profile of the mysterious criminal: ex-military, likely special forces. Perhaps someone trained in covert operations during the Vietnam War, someone who would select the trickiest parachute of the four available. Was he a well-trained soldier with a grudge after being shipped back to the states, or perhaps one put up to the task by the CIA?
Smith’s thoughts are wilder than some, tamer than others. His book D.B. Cooper and the FBI pokes at the government’s failures, from sloppy evidence supervision to witnesses left unquestioned. Since Carr’s release, much of the formal investigation has become available to civilians and he thrills that the “FBI does not have the full control over the storyline.” Cooper belongs to everyone now.

And he will until the case is solved—which Smith thinks will happen. He points to technological progress in processing evidence, but also metaphysical advancements that recall his days with J.Z. Knight. “Psychic sleuthing,” he says, will allow a person to “penetrate through and transform time and space” to solve crime. Remote viewing as law enforcement. Someday soon, he thinks, someone, maybe even him, can go back in time and actually observe Dan Cooper disappear into the dark night.

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 01, 2021, 05:08:27 PM
Seattle Met, continued:

The Scientist: Tom Kaye
 
In the basement of his Arizona home, Tom Kaye fixes his eyes on his screen, lit with what looks like a closeup of a matted shag carpet. This is a twenty-dollar bill magnified 5,000 times by one of the few privately owned electron microscopes in the country. Kaye thinks individual atoms on the weathered bill can tell him something about when it jumped out of the airplane with D.B. Cooper.
From an early age Tom Kaye—born Thomas Kotsiopoulos, Thomas G. Kaye professionally—saw the world through a researcher’s eye. He collected snakes and mice in the brambles along the railroad tracks, the wildest part of 1960s Chicago. But somehow the “sciencey, geeky kind of kid” didn’t fit the academic mold, and he matured into a businessman and inventor.

A late-1980s round of the nascent game of paintball left a welt on his forehead so pronounced it looked like a third eye; Kaye immediately designed a full-face mask for the developing sport. Ever tinkering, he created semi-automatic paintball guns and spring-fed magazines, tools of destruction reimagined as playthings, and earned enough to fund a self-made science career.

Fascinated by astronomy, he bought one of the biggest non-professional telescopes in the country, its mirror a meter wide. He went to Wyoming to hunt dinosaur fossils and ended up supporting digs for the elite Field Museum of Chicago, even though he initially knew as much about the creatures as the average kindergartner—“long necks and stuff like that.” He showed Field Museum students where to find fossils; they taught him paleontology.

Tall and thin, gregarious and curious, Kaye fancies himself a classic gentleman scientist, a modern-day Charles Darwin or Benjamin Franklin. But his accomplishments are hardly vanity; his resume of scientific publications—including the lofty Nature—would be respectable for anyone, muses Dr. Matthew Carrano, curator of Dinosauria of the Smithsonian. The paleontologist counts Kaye as a friend and colleague: “He is a serious intellect.”
Which put Kaye in the sights of the Dropzone forum posters who helped Agent Carr land a civilian to study the Cooper cash. New technologies could reveal something about how the money ended up on the shores of the Columbia, but the FBI wasn’t prioritizing lab time for decades-old cold cases. A paleontology fan on the forum suggested the unconventional self-trained scientist—and his very available electron microscope.

Kaye knew that no professional scientist would want to be associated with a pursuit he casts as “kind of razzmatazz, you know—ancient alien, chasing-a-conspiracy-theory type of thing.” He, on the other hand, didn’t have a reputation to lose.
At that time Kaye was an unpaid research associate for the Burke Museum at the University of Washington, supporting himself on its fossil digs, a Seattle link that convinced Carr. The agent passed three of the Cooper bills to Kaye, who painstakingly separated samples the size of pencil erasers. He coated each with a thin layer of gold to conduct electrons through the material and settled in for long hours of analysis.

Though his personal electron microscope dates back to the mid-’80s, the amateur scientist keeps the creaky instrument running. As he scanned the bills, Kaye analyzed what atoms they contained. “It’s like treasure hunting in its own way,” he says. Silver atoms promised a juicy clue—until Kaye learned that FBI fingerprint dust used to contain silver nitrate. He purchased nitrate-sensing strips used in swimming pool maintenance to confirm the hunch.
Kaye’s meticulous nature so impressed Carr that he handed over the skinny JCPenney tie abandoned on the plane. After pieces of the cheap clip-on went through Kaye’s electron microscope, what looked like a new breakthrough emerged: traces of titanium.

“Today titanium can be found everywhere from your key chain to your golf club,” says Kaye—but that wasn’t the case in Cooper’s day. One exception: In the 1960s, Boeing tried  to build an entire airplane made of titanium, the supersonic 2707 to rival the Concorde. A project scrapped in 1971.
“There couldn’t be a more perfect story. That Cooper was an engineer or manager on the supersonic transport project, he got this stuff on his tie,” says Kaye. “Now he’s broke and needs some money, does the hijacking, walks away with 200 grand.” It paints a great picture if you stop right there, a dramatic caper set in Seattle’s iconic ’70s doldrums. Did the last person out of Seattle...jump out a plane?

“Turns out that’s all bullshit,” continues Kaye. He kept digging and discovered the Boeing 2707 was to be made of an alloy, not the straight titanium he’d found. Kaye knew you can’t quit asking questions when the answer is good.

He hung around the Cooper case for more than 10 years. In the Dropzone and a different forum that succeeded it, he stood as a kind of scientific expert among amateur investigators. The FBI invited him and a few other “citizen sleuths” to view the entire physical evidence archive for the case.
 
Eventually, another twenty-dollar bill made its way onto Kaye’s electron microscope; this one had been kept by the youthful finder back in 1980 and sold to a Cooper enthusiast. This time, Kaye found something new: diatoms, single-celled organisms encased in silica. He identified the hairpin shapes on the money as a specific diatom, Asterionella formosa—a life-form absent from the Columbia River near Thanksgiving. The found money had been submerged in water at some point, but it would have been during summer.

The finding blew apart many beloved theories, like that Cooper had landed on the banks of the Columbia and stashed some of his cash for later. But for every possibility it eliminated, says Kaye, “It doesn’t lead you to Cooper either.” Kaye’s research on using diatoms to establish seasonality earned him yet another scientific paper.
Kaye did more work on the tie, finding rare earth elements yttrium and strontium, used in making televisions, but that hardly produces a suspect. Agent Carr, for his part, thinks the tie has been contaminated too much during the 50 years of investigation to ever conclusively narrow the case. The only thing it points to, dismisses Carr, is “some guy in middle management.”

Will the case be solved? Maybe, thinks Kaye. But he’s not in this to win, like the people he’s met on the forums. He sees the act of chasing Cooper as a way to feed law enforcement new evidence techniques.

Despite the range of out-there theories he hears about D.B. Cooper, Kaye considers it very different from, say, looking for Bigfoot, where “you’ll never make any progress because it’s not there.” Cooper, on the other hand, “is actually there, he’s actually a person, he actually did it.” Twelve years from first dipping a toe in the mystery, Tom Kaye admits he’s still wading in.
 
We don’t know much more about “Dan Cooper” than the flight crew did in 1971, when they felt a bump from the cockpit and surmised that the mysterious skyjacker had jumped. Dan Cooper is probably gone forever.

But D.B. Cooper keeps showing up. Countless documentaries have traced the case, making appearances on the History Channel and National Geographic and HBO. Leonard Nimoy profiled the case in his 1970s oddities program “In Search Of,” and Robert Duvall starred in a movie about Cooper in the 1980s. Just this summer, the first episode of the Marvel Universe TV show Loki cast the historic event as a superhero prank.
The 50th anniversary of the tantalizing mystery will be marked by new documentaries and renewed fervor over this suspect or that one. The Ariel Store Bar, shuttered in recent years, won’t host its usual Thanksgiving weekend party. But a D.B. Cooper Con in Vancouver on November 20–21 packs a roster with notables: Brian Ingram, who found the cash as a boy, and Flight 305’s second officer. A Cooper podcaster, a retired FBI agent, even Marla Cooper. Tom Kaye and Bruce Smith. (Larry Carr has been officially invited.)

Given that the stewardesses who spoke to Cooper put the hijacker in his mid-40s, the culprit is now an elderly man, his fortune long spent. Or he has died of prosaic causes, his one-day exploits disconnected from a life built of its own dramas.
Or, of course, the man who called himself Dan Cooper crash-landed in the Washington wilds on November 24, and the mossy depths of the Northwest forest have since claimed his body, breaking down the brash criminal and his black suit into unremarkable earth.

The amorphous D.B. Cooper, on the other hand, fluid and fascinating, lives on.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on October 01, 2021, 07:07:25 PM
Thanks for posting that Bruce, good read. I think my favorite part was that it didn't have that same paragraph that's in every other Cooper article that recaps the whole hijacking (I usually skip past that part). As much as I like being right, I hope like hell that I'm wrong when I say that I disagree with you and that I don't think this thing ever gets solved.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on October 02, 2021, 12:06:30 AM
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Seattle Met, continued:

The Scientist: Tom Kaye
 ........
The amorphous D.B. Cooper, on the other hand, fluid and fascinating, lives on.

Good article as far as it goes. 
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 02, 2021, 12:07:26 AM
...but then again, it could all be solved by an offensive, farting, belching guy who pisses off everyone, has a porn mag hanging out of his back pocket, gives a shit about nothing, and is more interested in poking the world with a stick in the eye, than coddling the well-worn gentleman's club that is the "cooper vortex".
:)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on October 02, 2021, 12:40:37 PM
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...but then again, it could all be solved by an offensive, farting, belching guy who pisses off everyone, has a porn mag hanging out of his back pocket, gives a shit about nothing, and is more interested in poking the world with a stick in the eye, than coddling the well-worn gentleman's club that is the "cooper vortex".
:)

Are you describing someone we know, lol?  If that person can solve it, I hope they do.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 02, 2021, 07:12:32 PM
I never belonged to a frat, or a gentleman's club before. I like it....
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 04, 2021, 06:11:10 AM
Gentleman’s Club? Well where the hell has the bouncer been? The place makes the Star Wars bar look civilized.

I coined the phrase “Cooper Vortex”. This ain’t laminar flow. It’s chaotic, entropic, a hot mess that defies accurate modeling. A vortex sucks you in and takes you down. Does our vortex have a Kraken?

Still, I remain optimistic that the case will be solved.

377


Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 04, 2021, 12:52:07 PM
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Gentleman’s Club? Well where the hell has the bouncer been? The place makes the Star Wars bar look civilized.

I coined the phrase “Cooper Vortex”. This ain’t laminar flow. It’s chaotic, entropic, a hot mess that defies accurate modeling. A vortex sucks you in and takes you down. Does our vortex have a Kraken?

Still, I remain optimistic that the case will be solved.

377

I was musing about various biases that the vortex represents.
Thought it was interesting to see a comment about how most posts are from men, whereas "true crime" stuffs (books etc) tends to attract more women.

Is there a "bro" aspect to Cooper? Or is it just in the people attracted to the Cooper event?
On the one hand, the Cooper event is interesting as an extension of "what's possible" at a moment in time.
It's interesting because of it's revealing of the hidden lack of competency inside the FBI.

It used to be interesting because of the lack of info. It was hard to find any details you could hang your hat on.

I wonder  if now, with more and more of the FBI files revealing info, if it's becoming less interesting.

Another thought: I'm still wondering why people haven't seized on the likely detail that there weren't 3 original packets to Cooper, on the beach.

There was some claim that rubber bands were on two of the bundles. That would suggest further (if you believe that) that the chunk with no rubber bands, was an interior part of a single (or one of two) packet that broke apart.

I believe people want to believe "3 bundles appeared on the beach" because it seems less likely to be something straightforward.
If it was just one bundle, the money find becomes less interesting.

It's just interesting to me, that people totally accept the FBI description of amount of money found, when all the info (pictures and PCGS serials) seems to indicate the FBI information is wrong. And the detail of the FBI description (same order as delivered to Cooper) seems very unlikely to have been provable at the time. (why would it have been easy for FBI to determine serials, but hard/painstaking for PCGS to determine serials???)

And for all the pseudo-scientific stuff written about the Tena Bar money find, the "amount" of money found, has never been questioned. Even though no FBI report has been presented that quantifies the process used to come up with the number presented to the press in 1980.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 05, 2021, 04:45:15 AM
The shift to a "Gentlemen's Club" has been gradual, but real. Back in 2008 at the DZ, we had Amazon, Orange1, EVicki, and Smokin99 on a regular basis. No more.

Yes, Lynn/Dana pops by every now and then and has even written a book, but it ain't like the old days.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 05, 2021, 01:44:06 PM
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The shift to a "Gentlemen's Club" has been gradual, but real. Back in 2008 at the DZ, we had Amazon, Orange1, EVicki, and Smokin99 on a regular basis. No more.

Yes, Lynn/Dana pops by every now and then and has even written a book, but it ain't like the old days.

I'm glad you see what I'm hinting at.

Yes, I realized a bias had crept in, when I stumbled at realizing Lynn was a woman, and couldn't figure out how to explain Sheridan's misogynist writing, while at the same time, Sheridan in person actually charmed women. I was thinking about whether some of Sheridan's personality actually was part of Cooper world! Maybe, for me, because I pictured a Cooper that matched that kind of personality. I got to wondering: which came first, chicken or egg. (Did Sheridan affect my thinking, or did I affect my thinking?)

I pictured Lynn reading Sheridan's book, and not knowing how a woman might perceive it. Insulted? or "Yeah, that's how men are/was" or ???

I'm just using this Sheridan thing as an example, but it does exist in other areas, like the constant combative stances from some (blevins, flyjack etc).
I mean, can you imagine women wasting time in the bullshit little posturing/ranting? Hmm...maybe Jo did :)

Orange1 was amazing at DZ.com. really really sharp.
Amazon was brilliant also. Her own character. Loved reading her stuff.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 05, 2021, 08:21:46 PM
Orange1 was indeed a major contributor. So damned smart. She’s now living in CA with her family. Hope to meet her in person someday. Amazon added a lot to the forum. Miss her too. Anyone know what’s become of her?

So happy to see Snowmman back in the game. No Quade to lock horns with here. Dave is more tolerant, no power trip admin antics. We all owe Shutter. He rocks.

Carr still thinks Cooper didn’t survive the jump. I continue to think if Cooper died in the jump there would be a missing person who fit the description and someone would put two and two together. If he died there would be unpaid bills, rent, mortgage and the like. Mail would pile up. Taxes would go unpaid.

I’ve jumped from a jet airliner. It’s not so hard. My conditions were a piece of cake compared to what Cooper faced, but all he had to do was pull the ripcord handle and he would likely land alive.

377

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 05, 2021, 10:42:40 PM
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I’ve jumped from a jet airliner. It’s not so hard. My conditions were a piece of cake compared to what Cooper faced, but all he had to do was pull the ripcord handle and he would likely land alive.

377

I wonder if this idea of "easy jump" is what gets people worked up about the money find on Tena Bar.
If you accept it likely means he jumped near Portland, the jump is even easier than presented easily. (except not getting caught).
So if you think Cooper died on the jump, he has to have jumped near Portland and died, and the body not found.

Then you have to weigh that against jumped, survived, and hid chute. And never talked about it.

Which is more likely if jumping near Portland: death, maybe by drowning or no-pull, and body not found, or survive and never talk about it.

The money find seems to force you to make that choice, I think. Jump near Portland. Then: dead or alive?

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on October 05, 2021, 11:34:48 PM
“Likely” does not mean “definite”.

Each of the difficult conditions and variables decreases Cooper’s chances of survival by a degree. So even if he chance of survival was 90% out of 100. There is still that pesky 10% that people don’t seem to want to entertain. 377 and Andrade along with many others are convinced he survived. I’ve heard from experienced skydivers who are say that was a difficult jump for anyone and especially for someone with little experience.

Anyways, this is the wrong thread for that discussion.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 06, 2021, 02:39:48 AM
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“Likely” does not mean “definite”.

Each of the difficult conditions and variables decreases Cooper’s chances of survival by a degree. So even if he chance of survival was 90% out of 100. There is still that pesky 10% that people don’t seem to want to entertain. 377 and Andrade along with many others are convinced he survived. I’ve heard from experienced skydivers who are say that was a difficult jump for anyone and especially for someone with little experience.

Anyways, this is the wrong thread for that discussion.

I'm not sure I agree with your model of how "difficulty" couples to survival probability.
There's a number of risk sports, where people never die doing the most difficult thing...they die doing some humdrum thing.

Why? Because they are totally focused during the hard thing, and the mind/body isn't dialed in during the easy thing.
That and many repetitions of "easier" things, can be a total risk equal to one iteration of a riskier thing.

So: a single jump over Portland out of a 727? Maybe not so risky.

Saying you have a model that's accurate for getting the jump successful, when you don't even know Cooper's background or skills...well, you're just guessing right?

You have no idea how much experience Cooper had. Once you give that as a "rationale" for your model..well I think you've invalidated your model.

re: wrong thread...I guess on podcasts stuff like this isn't discussed :)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 06, 2021, 04:45:22 AM
Darren - following up on the last comment: Maybe you should have panel discussions about certain Cooper topics to balance the singular presentations from your guests.

Panel discussions could be sharp and interesting.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on October 06, 2021, 09:33:25 PM
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“Likely” does not mean “definite”.

Each of the difficult conditions and variables decreases Cooper’s chances of survival by a degree. So even if he chance of survival was 90% out of 100. There is still that pesky 10% that people don’t seem to want to entertain. 377 and Andrade along with many others are convinced he survived. I’ve heard from experienced skydivers who are say that was a difficult jump for anyone and especially for someone with little experience.

Anyways, this is the wrong thread for that discussion.

Based on my numbers, I put it at 82%

 ;-)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 06, 2021, 10:16:23 PM
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“Likely” does not mean “definite”.

Each of the difficult conditions and variables decreases Cooper’s chances of survival by a degree. So even if he chance of survival was 90% out of 100. There is still that pesky 10% that people don’t seem to want to entertain. 377 and Andrade along with many others are convinced he survived. I’ve heard from experienced skydivers who are say that was a difficult jump for anyone and especially for someone with little experience.

Anyways, this is the wrong thread for that discussion.

Based on my numbers, I put it at 82%

 ;-)

Leeroy Jenkins!

The right calculation for success is always "32.33, uh, repeating of course"
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 07, 2021, 06:26:43 AM
Sure Cooper could have cratered but if his body wasn’t submerged vultures would almost certainly have found it. Their circling provides a good visual clue that can often be seen from a considerable distance. You can bet that there were people looking for a body with 200,000 in cash attached.

To me the best evidence for survival is that no missing person was a good match. There was massive publicity about the skyjack when it occurred. Someone missing who matched witness descriptions would have come to light. This wasn’t an obscure case.

I’ve done one DC 9-21 jet jump and several night and water jumps. I think if Cooper pulled then he likely landed alive. If, however, he landed in water over head height at night I think he drowned. My jet, night and water jumps were not hard, but the conditions were carefully chosen to minimize risk. Truth be told my night jumps were done under full moons in perfect weather. The water jumps were in bright sunlight with recovery personnel in close attendance. The jet jump was over a DZ in summer under perfect conditions. I’m not trying to pass myself off as a commando. The night missions done over North Vietnam by Ted Braden and his MAC SOG colleagues would have scared the living hell out of me. The harrowing rescues accomplished by USAF PJs required skill levels way above my own. I’m just a fun jumper not a pro.

I do think I’m qualified to assess the risk in Coopers jump. Risky? Yes. Certain death? No way. Even a novice could have survived with a bit of luck. The way Coooer easily donned an NB rig tells me he was no stranger to parachutes.

377





 
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 07, 2021, 01:01:22 PM
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I do think I’m qualified to assess the risk in Coopers jump. Risky? Yes. Certain death? No way. Even a novice could have survived with a bit of luck. The way Coooer easily donned an NB rig tells me he was no stranger to parachutes.

377

Another point in my mind.
At no point did Cooper seems to self-assess (out loud) that he was about to take a big or unknown risk.
Like he didn't say to Tina "Wish me luck!"
there's no point where anyone says anything where he expressed any concern or nervousness about the jump.
And there's no point where anyone made it sound like he was depressed or thinking he was about to commit suicide.

So why wasn't Cooper nervous about the jump?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on October 07, 2021, 06:45:00 PM
Jet, airstairs, night, weather, none of that poses a significant risk to his life.

Having been an instructor for over thirty years and having taken thousands of people on their first jumps, I think I have a pretty good take on how different types of people are likely to perform. If Cooper has it in him to plan and go through with this caper, I think pulling a ripcord poses no significant challenge to him.

If he pulls, even if unstable, he all but assuredly gets an open canopy.

The main threat to his survival is if he is injured on landing and unable to hike out. With a non steerable chute over possibly inhospitable terrain, that is certainly possible. If he lands in water, that could be a problem.


I have to keep open the possibility that Cooper was found, and whoever found him buried everything and kept the money. But then you'd have the missing person issue...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on October 07, 2021, 07:52:22 PM
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Jet, airstairs, night, weather, none of that poses a significant risk to his life.

Having been an instructor for over thirty years and having taken thousands of people on their first jumps, I think I have a pretty good take on how different types of people are likely to perform. If Cooper has it in him to plan and go through with this caper, I think pulling a ripcord poses no significant challenge to him.

If he pulls, even if unstable, he all but assuredly gets an open canopy.

The main threat to his survival is if he is injured on landing and unable to hike out. With a non steerable chute over possibly inhospitable terrain, that is certainly possible. If he lands in water, that could be a problem.


I have to keep open the possibility that Cooper was found, and whoever found him buried everything and kept the money. But then you'd have the missing person issue...
Dudeman,
I'm just playing devil's advocate, so please don't think I'm being argumentative or questioning your expertise, so let me ask you this:

The military chute he used was a four line release, correct? Essentially, after you deployed, you pulled the lines from the canopy, grabbed those lines and wrapped them around your hands and those become your steering. You pull down on the left or the right and it pulls the canopy down and distorts it so it turns in that direction. It wasn't a perfectly efficient system and it was standard practice to turn into the wind so you wouldn’t be running with the wing when you landed.

So you have to assume he was able to release those lines, wrap them around his hands in very cold temperatures with no glove on, and turn into the wind. All at night in 40 degree weather. In your opinion, wouldn't his hands have hurt from the cold and made it difficult for him to hang on to his steering toggles?

Secondly, you say that the weather, the night jump, the unfamiliar rig would not pose a significant risk to his life. Would that be dependent on his skill level? Suppose he's a complete whuffo? Or someone with a handful of jumps?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 07, 2021, 10:53:23 PM
dudeman:

I always loved this story.
I posted it in DZ.com in 2008. The pics are not available and I don't have the magazines any more, but
Randy Leavitt tells the story of teaching Brett Maurer how to jump in the parking lot in Yosemite.
Brett's first jump was off El Cap. I figure if Maurer could do that, I could jump a 727 as first jump :)

Every time I hear people opinionating about the risk of Cooper's jump, I think of Brett doing his first jump ever, off El Cap, after just having instruction in the parking lot. How do you calculate the reality that Brett survived?


----

Magazine is a now-defunct UK climbing/mountaineering magazine called "Mountain"
Number 99. Sept./Oct. 1984.
pages 33 thru 37. title: "Cliffing" by Randy Leavitt.

Page 36 has the two B/W pictures attached.
Caption says "Brett Maurer, having dispensed with the formality of a preliminary jump from an aircraft, makes his first ever parachute jump from the top of El Capitan.
2nd caption: Two seconds later Maurer surveys the landing site.

The date of the jump isn't included, but from the tone of the article I suspect sometime between '80-'84.

Photos taken by Leavitt.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on October 07, 2021, 11:56:24 PM
There's risk involved in almost every daily activity. There is an entire industry dedicated to the management of risk. Even experienced people with the proper equipment die doing the things they are experts at. Even total novices get lucky and survive doing dangerous things they've never trained at.

We risk our life getting out bed. Taking a shower. Driving to work. Eating lunch and dinner. Having sex. Etc. Cooper's jump, like any jump from a moving vehicle, had inherent risks that happened to be compounded by other variables.

Suggesting that Cooper risked his life by jumping that night isn't the same thing as saying Cooper absolutely died. Statistically, Cooper probably lived, but that doesn't make it a certainty. There are no absolutes.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 08, 2021, 12:19:20 AM
re: an entire industry dedicated to "managing" risk.

I think you're talking about the insurance industry. They don't "manage" risk. They just figure out how to make money off the risks other people take.

The people who actually try to manage risk tend to be specific to the industry/activity in question. There's no such thing as generalized risk management.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on October 08, 2021, 12:25:14 AM
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re: an entire industry dedicated to "managing" risk.

I think you're talking about the insurance industry. They don't "manage" risk. They just figure out how to make money off the risks other people take.

The people who actually try to manage risk tend to be specific to the industry/activity in question. There's no such thing as generalized risk management.
No, I'm literally talking about risk management.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Risk_management
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on October 08, 2021, 12:35:46 AM
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Jet, airstairs, night, weather, none of that poses a significant risk to his life.

Having been an instructor for over thirty years and having taken thousands of people on their first jumps, I think I have a pretty good take on how different types of people are likely to perform. If Cooper has it in him to plan and go through with this caper, I think pulling a ripcord poses no significant challenge to him.

If he pulls, even if unstable, he all but assuredly gets an open canopy.

The main threat to his survival is if he is injured on landing and unable to hike out. With a non steerable chute over possibly inhospitable terrain, that is certainly possible. If he lands in water, that could be a problem.


I have to keep open the possibility that Cooper was found, and whoever found him buried everything and kept the money. But then you'd have the missing person issue...
Dudeman,
I'm just playing devil's advocate, so please don't think I'm being argumentative or questioning your expertise, so let me ask you this:

The military chute he used was a four line release, correct? Essentially, after you deployed, you pulled the lines from the canopy, grabbed those lines and wrapped them around your hands and those become your steering. You pull down on the left or the right and it pulls the canopy down and distorts it so it turns in that direction. It wasn't a perfectly efficient system and it was standard practice to turn into the wind so you wouldn’t be running with the wing when you landed.

So you have to assume he was able to release those lines, wrap them around his hands in very cold temperatures with no glove on, and turn into the wind. All at night in 40 degree weather. In your opinion, wouldn't his hands have hurt from the cold and made it difficult for him to hang on to his steering toggles?

Secondly, you say that the weather, the night jump, the unfamiliar rig would not pose a significant risk to his life. Would that be dependent on his skill level? Suppose he's a complete whuffo? Or someone with a handful of jumps?

Chaucer, hold on here!  I am sure Dudeman can explain this better but I don't think there is anything known as a "four line release" parachute canopy.  There are, or used to be, military emergency parachutes that had four shroud lines marked with tape that were intended to be cut after the parachute opened.  One shroud line on each riser and there was a "line cutter" attached to one of those risers.  The point was to cut those marked shroud lines to stabilize or reduce the oscillations of the canopy.  They served no other purpose after that and any directional changes in the descent had to be done with the other shroud lines in the usual manner.

It is highly unlikely that Cooper jumped with a parachute canopy that included shroud line cutters.  If his parachute was an NB-6, which has been claimed but is probably not true, then it definitely did not have those cutters.  Further, how is Cooper going to determine the wind direction under the conditions that existed during his jump? 
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on October 08, 2021, 12:58:25 AM
This is good info. Thanks. I’ll look forward to sideman chiming in.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on October 08, 2021, 08:03:37 AM
DUDEMAN - f'n autocorrect...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 09, 2021, 01:41:37 PM
R99 wrote: “ If his parachute was an NB-6, which has been claimed but is probably not true, then it definitely did not have those cutters. ”

Do you mean to say 26 ft Navy Conical? NB6 just refers to the harness and container not the canopy.

My first reserve ride was on a 26 ft Navy Conical that had been modified by a civilian rigger to be steerable. It had a single T steering vent and steering toggles installed   The two surplus Navy Conicals I’ve seen in “as released condition” did not have 4 line releases. I’ve seen surplus C9 canopies as released from the govt both with and without 4 line releases.

377

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on October 09, 2021, 02:15:50 PM
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R99 wrote: “ If his parachute was an NB-6, which has been claimed but is probably not true, then it definitely did not have those cutters. ”

Do you mean to say 26 ft Navy Conical? NB6 just refers to the harness and container not the canopy.

My first reserve ride was on a 26 ft Navy Conical that had been modified by a civilian rigger to be steerable. It had a single T steering vent and steering toggles installed   The two surplus Navy Conicals I’ve seen in “as released condition” did not have 4 line releases. I’ve seen surplus C9 canopies as released from the govt both with and without 4 line releases.

377

Correct.  I owned an NB-6 with a 26 foot Navy Conical canopy for several years and used it as an emergency parachute in an aircraft with a very cramped cockpit.  I sold it just a couple of months before the Cooper hijacking.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on October 09, 2021, 08:20:39 PM
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The military chute he used was a four line release, correct? Essentially, after you deployed, you pulled the lines from the canopy, grabbed those lines and wrapped them around your hands and those become your steering. You pull down on the left or the right and it pulls the canopy down and distorts it so it turns in that direction. It wasn't a perfectly efficient system and it was standard practice to turn into the wind so you wouldn’t be running with the wing when you landed.

So you have to assume he was able to release those lines, wrap them around his hands in very cold temperatures with no glove on, and turn into the wind. All at night in 40 degree weather. In your opinion, wouldn't his hands have hurt from the cold and made it difficult for him to hang on to his steering toggles?

Secondly, you say that the weather, the night jump, the unfamiliar rig would not pose a significant risk to his life. Would that be dependent on his skill level? Suppose he's a complete whuffo? Or someone with a handful of jumps?

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I don't think there is anything known as a "four line release" parachute canopy.


Indeed there is a four line release mod on some round reserves. I don't think Cooper's chute had it though. I think he just had a no-mod, non-steerable, don't-bounce round. 377 would more accurately know. On the four line release, after you open there are tabs or pieces of line on the risers that you pull that release the four rear-most lines of the canopy. That allows the back of it to rise up into a bubble like configuration. That allows air to escape out the back, creating some forward drive. The next outward lines have toggles attached for steering. Sure it's preferable to land into the wind if you can tell what direction that is, but I think whatever control he might have had would be best served to avoid obstacles and get into a decent landing area. Robert, I've never heard of that four line setup you described. That must be old old school military. That apex hole at the top of a round is what reduces oscillations.

Yes, cold hands are a bitch and they hurt. But hopefully if you put yourself in a situation like that you have the focus to differentiate the nice from the necessary. Warm comfy hands are nice. Exerting whatever control you might have over a parachute is necessary. And we don't know that he didn't have gloves. He could have had some in that other bag or in his pockets.

Obviously having some experience would help him. But I don't think a lack of it is a huge threat to him. You get off the plane, you pull the ripcord, you land somewhere. Again I would cite Andrade's research, and the subsequent similar skyjack jumps.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on October 09, 2021, 08:36:57 PM
Thanks, Dudeman. Appreciate the info and insight.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 10, 2021, 12:51:50 AM
Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on October 10, 2021, 01:33:22 AM
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The military chute he used was a four line release, correct? Essentially, after you deployed, you pulled the lines from the canopy, grabbed those lines and wrapped them around your hands and those become your steering. You pull down on the left or the right and it pulls the canopy down and distorts it so it turns in that direction. It wasn't a perfectly efficient system and it was standard practice to turn into the wind so you wouldn’t be running with the wing when you landed.

So you have to assume he was able to release those lines, wrap them around his hands in very cold temperatures with no glove on, and turn into the wind. All at night in 40 degree weather. In your opinion, wouldn't his hands have hurt from the cold and made it difficult for him to hang on to his steering toggles?

Secondly, you say that the weather, the night jump, the unfamiliar rig would not pose a significant risk to his life. Would that be dependent on his skill level? Suppose he's a complete whuffo? Or someone with a handful of jumps?

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I don't think there is anything known as a "four line release" parachute canopy.


Indeed there is a four line release mod on some round reserves. I don't think Cooper's chute had it though. I think he just had a no-mod, non-steerable, don't-bounce round. 377 would more accurately know. On the four line release, after you open there are tabs or pieces of line on the risers that you pull that release the four rear-most lines of the canopy. That allows the back of it to rise up into a bubble like configuration. That allows air to escape out the back, creating some forward drive. The next outward lines have toggles attached for steering. Sure it's preferable to land into the wind if you can tell what direction that is, but I think whatever control he might have had would be best served to avoid obstacles and get into a decent landing area. Robert, I've never heard of that four line setup you described. That must be old old school military. That apex hole at the top of a round is what reduces oscillations.

Yes, cold hands are a bitch and they hurt. But hopefully if you put yourself in a situation like that you have the focus to differentiate the nice from the necessary. Warm comfy hands are nice. Exerting whatever control you might have over a parachute is necessary. And we don't know that he didn't have gloves. He could have had some in that other bag or in his pockets.

Obviously having some experience would help him. But I don't think a lack of it is a huge threat to him. You get off the plane, you pull the ripcord, you land somewhere. Again I would cite Andrade's research, and the subsequent similar skyjack jumps.

Dudeman, take a look at 377's posts above.  The "four-line release" canopies had a "shroud line cutter" in a pocket on one of the risers.  It also had a lanyard tied to it so the parachutist would not lose it.  This cutter was a "J" hook-shaped device so that the appropriate shroud lines could be cut by a pulling action.  These things existed about 50 years ago and I don't know if they still do today or not.

The vent at the top of the canopy does reduce the oscillations but somewhere along the way, the military added the four-line release.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on October 10, 2021, 03:35:59 AM
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Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???
So, then what chutes/rigs/canopies did Cooper jump with, oh esteemed Bruce. A. Smith?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: DBfan57 on October 10, 2021, 07:43:54 AM
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Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???
So, then what chutes/rigs/canopies did Cooper jump with, oh esteemed Bruce. A. Smith?
Well it sure is entertaining to come on here.  You are like the beach bully that just kicked sand in the face of the poor yuppies lying on their blanket.  Cooper pulled the damn cord, jumped between 8:11 and 8:15 and its my hope he is reading all of this and laughing. Of course while drinking his bourbon.  Maybe straight by now.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 10, 2021, 11:43:10 AM
Even if there was a 4 line release on Cooper’s canopy I doubt if he could have used it. Not enough light.

What really matters is not the canopy type or 4 line release or extended container flaps or Capewells or sport or military gear. The outcome determinative component is the ripcord handle. If you don’t pull it, nothing else matters.

If Cooper pulled, I think he landed alive.

377
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 10, 2021, 11:48:53 AM
Bruce wrote:
“Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???”

I jumped only military surplus gear for the first few years of my skydiving career. C9 main, Navy Conical reserve on the rig I owned. Jumped rental surplus rigs before I bought. I recall seeing both Pioneer and Steinhal names on the data panels of various surplus canopies.

377
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 10, 2021, 01:35:31 PM
Was thinking about how relieved Cooper must have felt, when he finally got on the aft stairs with a rig on his back, and money on his front.

first time in hours, things might have felt like it was all under his control.

In fact, thinking about him asking for the notes and matchbook back and not leaving briefcase etc on the plane, he seemed pretty confident that he was going to survive and wanted to make sure he wouldn't be caught.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on October 10, 2021, 07:03:34 PM
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Dudeman, take a look at 377's posts above.  The "four-line release" canopies had a "shroud line cutter" in a pocket on one of the risers.  It also had a lanyard tied to it so the parachutist would not lose it.  This cutter was a "J" hook-shaped device so that the appropriate shroud lines could be cut by a pulling action.  These things existed about 50 years ago and I don't know if they still do today or not.

The vent at the top of the canopy does reduce the oscillations but somewhere along the way, the military added the four-line release.


Robert, the four line system you describe is different in both design and intent from the one I (and I believe 377) am describing. The one I am referring to works in the manner I described, and it's intent is to give some drive and control. I had one and flew it a couple times. The one you describe is apparently intended to reduce oscillations. My initial guess is that it is an old design and likely precedes the apex hole.


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Even if there was a 4 line release on Cooper’s canopy I doubt if he could have used it. Not enough light.


I disagree with that. The thing is right above your head within arm's reach. Even at night one would be able to see and access it. The question would be if he was familiar with it (if indeed it was there).


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The outcome determinative component is the ripcord handle. If you don’t pull it, nothing else matters.

If Cooper pulled, I think he landed alive.


I agree with that 100%.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on October 10, 2021, 09:07:12 PM
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Dudeman, take a look at 377's posts above.  The "four-line release" canopies had a "shroud line cutter" in a pocket on one of the risers.  It also had a lanyard tied to it so the parachutist would not lose it.  This cutter was a "J" hook-shaped device so that the appropriate shroud lines could be cut by a pulling action.  These things existed about 50 years ago and I don't know if they still do today or not.

The vent at the top of the canopy does reduce the oscillations but somewhere along the way, the military added the four-line release.


Robert, the four line system you describe is different in both design and intent from the one I (and I believe 377) am describing. The one I am referring to works in the manner I described, and it's intent is to give some drive and control. I had one and flew it a couple times. The one you describe is apparently intended to reduce oscillations. My initial guess is that it is an old design and likely precedes the apex hole.


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Even if there was a 4 line release on Cooper’s canopy I doubt if he could have used it. Not enough light.


I disagree with that. The thing is right above your head within arm's reach. Even at night one would be able to see and access it. The question would be if he was familiar with it (if indeed it was there).


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The outcome determinative component is the ripcord handle. If you don’t pull it, nothing else matters.

If Cooper pulled, I think he landed alive.


I agree with that 100%.

To the best of my knowledge, the hole in the canopy apex dates back to very close to the first fabric parachute.  Maybe back to the Montgolfier (sp.) balloon experimenting era.  Probably at least 150+ years in any event.

As I have mentioned before, the four-line release system that I am aware of existed about 1970.  And 377 apparently has seen such systems.

Did Cooper get an open canopy if he simply pulled the ripcord?  Not necessarily in my opinion.  There is absolutely no way that Cooper could avoid tumbling unless he pulled the ripcord while on the stairs and at 225 MPH that could have problems of its own.  If he did not pull while on the stairs, he would tumble in a complicated asymmetric manner with a good possibility that he could wrap himself up in the should lines or have some type of canopy inversion.  I have personally had a canopy inversion in much simpler circumstances.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on October 10, 2021, 09:56:43 PM
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To the best of my knowledge, the hole in the canopy apex dates back to very close to the first fabric parachute.  Maybe back to the Montgolfier (sp.) balloon experimenting era.  Probably at least 150+ years in any event.

As I have mentioned before, the four-line release system that I am aware of existed about 1970.  And 377 apparently has seen such systems.


What you say about the apex hole is probably correct. I'm not doubting the veracity of the system you describe, I have just not seen it myself. The system I describe does exist, and was not at all uncommon. Like I said, I had one and used it. Back in the early 80's, I knew a guy who jumped one as a main because he liked to pull extremely low. Yeah, he would get yelled at and grounded, but he'd do it again.


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Did Cooper get an open canopy if he simply pulled the ripcord?  Not necessarily in my opinion.  There is absolutely no way that Cooper could avoid tumbling unless he pulled the ripcord while on the stairs and at 225 MPH that could have problems of its own.  If he did not pull while on the stairs, he would tumble in a complicated asymmetric manner with a good possibility that he could wrap himself up in the should lines or have some type of canopy inversion.  I have personally had a canopy inversion in much simpler circumstances.


I'm sorry but I have to respectfully disagree with much of that. I do agree that pulling on the stairs would be a horrible idea. I think the opening shock would snap the snot out of him, and the turbulence behind the plane might increase the possibility of a malfunction, and he could end up entangled with the airplane. (Static line jumpers do fall a bit behind and below the aircraft, reducing most of that threat.) Freefall stability is a matter of subtle body english, and like anything, some people take to it easier and quicker than others. Did he have any experience? Even experience at things like scuba diving or body surfing might help, since it is a somewhat similar fluid environment. But even if he's tumbling...  At the higher airspeeds of skydiving (as opposed to what I described elsewhere about lower base jumps), deployments are quick, definitive, and under a fair amount of tension. I've seen people throw hand deploy pilot chutes in extremely f'ed up body positions, and they get open. Ripcord activated, spring launched pilot chutes are even more reliable, I've seen people launch those in horrific tumbles/spins, and they get open. 377 describes his own experiences with his early freefall attempts. And like a broken record, I again, again cite Andrade's research. I think those statistics are about the best indicator, as they involve unexperienced people jumping similar rigs in high-stress situations, and they live. Sure, entanglements and malfunctions can occur, but they are the exception and not the rule.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 10, 2021, 11:03:27 PM
one funny thing I noticed at the end of the clip I posted on youtube of the movie jump sequence in "The Pursuit of DB Cooper"

the jump where the videographer jumped first...apparently he landed on the ground first, so he got video of the "Cooper" jumper approaching ground, while the camera is on the ground.

the cameraman is  slightly behind a tree, pointing up at Cooper coming down...I'd swear it looks like the Cooper jumper lands in the tree. If so, I can't imagine that was by design :) It's a smallish tree, so probably not a big deal.

In terms of accuracy, it's interesting that the two jumpers would have been able to land so close to each other. Then again maybe that sequence was a third jump, maybe not even from the 727. 

Still, good accuracy with that vented round the Cooper jumper was using. (getting close to where the cameraman landed)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 11, 2021, 05:03:41 AM
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Bruce wrote:
“Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???”

I jumped only military surplus gear for the first few years of my skydiving career. C9 main, Navy Conical reserve on the rig I owned. Jumped rental surplus rigs before I bought. I recall seeing both Pioneer and Steinhal names on the data panels of various surplus canopies.

377

So the Steinthauls could have been C-9s?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 11, 2021, 05:05:50 AM
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Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???
So, then what chutes/rigs/canopies did Cooper jump with, oh esteemed Bruce. A. Smith?

I say it wasn't an NB-6 or NB-8. What kinds of canopies did Steinthaul make?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 11, 2021, 07:33:49 AM
Correct spelling as I recall is Steinhal. That company made many types of military canopies as did Pioneer.

Steinhal and Pioneer also made sport canopies. Just knowing the mfr doesn’t tell you what kind of canopy. Pioneer made the Paracommander and Steinhal made the similar US Papillon.

Somewhere I read that Norman bought both canopies at a surplus store. My guess is that they were C9s. I haunted surplus stores as a kid, in many different cities, and never once saw a Navy Conical in their inventory. Saw a LOT of C9s.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1967-navy-issued-steinthal-parachute-1981180790?popular

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1969-steinthal-co-ny-parachute-1860570195

You’d think wild tumbling while deploying would likely cause a canopy malfunction. It never happened to me or any of my buddies. Between us we probably had a hundred unstable deployments. On one particularly scary student freefall jump my tumble/spin rotation rate was crazy high. Everything was a blur. I couldn’t stabilize and it was time to pull. I thought this is for sure going to be a disaster. I envisioned myself augering in wrapped tightly in suspension lines and canopy. Didn’t happen. Got a perfect opening. Thank God.

Dudeman have you seen the Korat Thailand 727 static line jumps? I’d have expected severe opening shocks but the videos show pretty gentle openings to my eye. The canopies “squid” which slows the opening. I think I’d have pulled off the stairs if I knew about those jumps. I do agree that an extended freefall at night with no clear horizon or azimuth reference and with an asymmetric external loaf would cause tumbling or at least a spin. Arching will normally stabilize you in pitch and roll but not yaw. You need a visual azimuth reference point to avoid a spin.

I was so damned scared deploying in wild tumbles. Terrified. But I had to pull as I ran out of altitude. I’m not religious but I was praying fervently as I pulled. I thought I’d never learn how to freefall stable, an opinion that was probably shared by my jumpmasters. Thank goodness I finally figured it out. It was such a rush. I was ecstatic, just crazy happy. I was now a real skydiver with a future in the sport.

377

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on October 11, 2021, 12:50:38 PM
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Correct spelling as I recall is Steinhal. That company made many types of military canopies as did Pioneer.

Steinhal and Pioneer also made sport canopies. Just knowing the mfr doesn’t tell you what kind of canopy. Pioneer made the Paracommander and Steinhal made the similar US Papillon.

Somewhere I read that Norman bought both canopies at a surplus store. My guess is that they were C9s. I haunted surplus stores as a kid, in many different cities, and never once saw a Navy Conical in their inventory. Saw a LOT of C9s.

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1967-navy-issued-steinthal-parachute-1981180790?popular

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1969-steinthal-co-ny-parachute-1860570195

You’d think wild tumbling while deploying would likely cause a canopy malfunction. It never happened to me or any of my buddies. Between us we probably had a hundred unstable deployments. On one particularly scary student freefall jump my tumble/spin rotation rate was crazy high. Everything was a blur. I couldn’t stabilize and it was time to pull. I thought this is for sure going to be a disaster. I envisioned myself augering in wrapped tightly in suspension lines and canopy. Didn’t happen. Got a perfect opening. Thank God.

Dudeman have you seen the Korat Thailand 727 static line jumps? I’d have expected severe opening shocks but the videos show pretty gentle openings to my eye. The canopies “squid” which slows the opening. I think I’d have pulled off the stairs if I knew about those jumps. I do agree that an extended freefall at night with no clear horizon or azimuth reference and with an asymmetric external loaf would cause tumbling or at least a spin. Arching will normally stabilize you in pitch and roll but not yaw. You need a visual azimuth reference point to avoid a spin.

I was so damned scared deploying in wild tumbles. Terrified. But I had to pull as I ran out of altitude. I’m not religious but I was praying fervently as I pulled. I thought I’d never learn how to freefall stable, an opinion that was probably shared by my jumpmasters. Thank goodness I finally figured it out. It was such a rush. I was ecstatic, just crazy happy. I was now a real skydiver with a future in the sport.

377

During WW2, parachute canopies were frequently made by companies that normally made clothing items for men and women.  But they had to be made to specified Military Standards.  And there was and probably still is a Military Standard, or related specifications, for just about everything from food items to battleships.

377 is absolutely correct about the 26-foot Navy Conical canopies.  They were extremely hard to find in the 1960s and cost about two or three times as much as a standard 28-foot canopy. 
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on October 11, 2021, 09:54:24 PM
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Dudeman have you seen the Korat Thailand 727 static line jumps? I’d have expected severe opening shocks but the videos show pretty gentle openings to my eye. The canopies “squid” which slows the opening. I think I’d have pulled off the stairs if I knew about those jumps. I do agree that an extended freefall at night with no clear horizon or azimuth reference and with an asymmetric external loaf would cause tumbling or at least a spin. Arching will normally stabilize you in pitch and roll but not yaw. You need a visual azimuth reference point to avoid a spin.


I have seen the Thailand jumps. I think they do get a pretty stiff opening shock. As the bag comes out of the container, and the canopy comes out of the bag and starts to inflate, that all does look pretty smooth. But the canopy goes out of frame before it's fully inflated. Just before/as the jumper goes out of frame, it looks to me like they are getting a pretty good yank at that point, as the canopy would be reaching full inflation. And that's with a bagged main. That unbagged reserve he jumped I think would open somewhat quicker. If it was diapered it might be a bit easier, but if it was just straight canopy with the line stows in the container, that thing would open like a bullwhip. Do you know which of those ways it would be packed? I think diaper is more likely, but the other way is possible?

(A diaper is a device that sequences the opening. It holds the bottom of the canopy closed, and the lines are stowed on it. When the chute gets to line stretch, the diaper opens and allows the canopy to inflate. The other way, the lines are stowed in the pack tray of the container, and the canopy is free to start inflating as soon as it leaves the container.)

As for pulling off the stairs - I think I noted this when you posted the video at DZ some time ago, but in the Thailand video, when the bag comes out of the container it immediately gets blown/sucked upwards to the tail. If Cooper was to pull off the stairs, that could result in the canopy entangling with the plane. Cooper in tow.

I don't buy that it would be so dark that Cooper 'couldn't see his hand in front of his face'. I've asked this before and not sure if I've gotten a definitive answer, but what was the moon that night? The pilots stated that they could see the glow of Portland lights. So with any ambient light, if Cooper could so much as see the clouds, he can see a heading. Whether or not he spins and tumbles would depend on whether he had any experience and how well he might naturally take to it. The money bag could certainly give him problems. My question would be whether it was centered and tight, or whether it was flopping around.

Also, apparently you're not going to confirm whether that was Taft you jumped at?  :P
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 12, 2021, 01:25:51 AM
I'm of the viewpoint that Cooper was experienced.

If he was experienced, the reality of "You die right now unless you pull" is a nice clarifying state of mind.

I think when choices are that simple, the mind actually calms down rather than panics..(if you're experienced.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on October 12, 2021, 03:36:08 AM
Steinthal it is. Thanks, 377.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on October 12, 2021, 03:46:19 PM
Andrade and Dudeman,

Let's discuss statistics and probability.  Statistics refers to past events.  Probability refers to the chances that a future event will happen.

Andrade's work on combat jumps is a statistic based on jump records.  What is the probability of the next jump being successful?

Can you or anyone else calculate the probability that Cooper's jump was successful?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on October 12, 2021, 04:10:14 PM
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Andrade and Dudeman,

Let's discuss statistics and probability.  Statistics refers to past events.  Probability refers to the chances that a future event will happen.

Andrade's work on combat jumps is a statistic based on jump records.  What is the probability of the next jump being successful?

Can you or anyone else calculate the probability that Cooper's jump was successful?

This is the preliminary topic of the speech I intend to give at CooperCon this year. Basic Bayesian analysis. Not to give away the punchline, but .82.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on October 12, 2021, 07:05:17 PM
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Andrade and Dudeman,

Let's discuss statistics and probability.  Statistics refers to past events.  Probability refers to the chances that a future event will happen.

Andrade's work on combat jumps is a statistic based on jump records.  What is the probability of the next jump being successful?

Can you or anyone else calculate the probability that Cooper's jump was successful?


Statistics inform probability.

On any given jump, the odds are overwhelmingly in favor of survival. However, people occasionally do go in. So, on any given Sunday, as they say, anything is possible. Who knows? Maybe Cooper was one of the few people to survive terminal impact.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on October 12, 2021, 07:09:02 PM
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If he was experienced, the reality of "You die right now unless you pull" is a nice clarifying state of mind.


Nah. It would be, "Take it on down! I've only got one shot anyways, and Hell isn't half full yet!"  Ha!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: northern flight path on October 12, 2021, 10:52:02 PM
can you studs un hijack this thread?

if not explain what it's about

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on October 12, 2021, 11:03:49 PM
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Ahem, gentlemen.... since we now know that the rigging cards for two Pioneer/Steinthauls were found on 305 in Reno, # SN 226 and #SN 67-9707, don't you think it's time to move on from NBs, Navy conicals and C-9s???
So, then what chutes/rigs/canopies did Cooper jump with, oh esteemed Bruce. A. Smith?
Well it sure is entertaining to come on here.  You are like the beach bully that just kicked sand in the face of the poor yuppies lying on their blanket.  Cooper pulled the damn cord, jumped between 8:11 and 8:15 and its my hope he is reading all of this and laughing. Of course while drinking his bourbon.  Maybe straight by now.
Sorry if this wasn’t clear, but there was no malice or bullying intended with my post. It was just friendly ribbing. Bruce and I have exchanged multiple cordial and light-hearted emails in the past. I apologized if it was taken any other way besides joking.

I have nothing but respect for Bruce.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 12, 2021, 11:10:55 PM
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can you studs un hijack this thread?

if not explain what it's about


It's what the thread subject is: "The Cooper Vortex". Just no podcast needed!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: northern flight path on October 13, 2021, 12:14:40 AM
weak

None of this is about the Cooper Vortex podcast.

I read your previous response to this inquiry from Chaucer

Your bad faith response was something to the effect of these things could be technically discussed on a podcast. I suspect that is why you were compelled to respond to my question.

By your rationale, anything could be discussed on a podcast thus the Cooper Vortex podcast thread can going forward serve as a slush pile for whatever which is better than you saying "oh yeah my bad" which would apparently be too much.

You have the valid option to just shoot me down as a new poster and then wonder why more people don't get into this case. Or the forum can be reasonable so people can actually follow it.

Your posts are awesome and if you had a book I'd buy it and I'm glad you're back on the forum but you're not even close to being right here


Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 13, 2021, 12:22:09 AM
weak?

Aren't all db cooper posts "weak"

there's no such thing as "non-weak" !!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: northern flight path on October 13, 2021, 12:22:44 AM
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weak?

Aren't all db cooper posts "weak"

there's no such thing as "non-weak" !!

touche

and now I'm a party to the continued hijacking of this topic #hypocracy

either way.. go on the podcast and it all evens out
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on October 13, 2021, 12:24:11 AM
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Your posts are awesome and if you had a book I'd buy it and I'm glad you're back on the forum but you're not even close to being right here

"not even close to being right here"

WELL! at least we've settled something. Well done! Next issue!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 14, 2021, 07:56:52 AM
Dudeman wrote: “ Also, apparently you're not going to confirm whether that was Taft you jumped at?  :P”

Sorry I missed the question. I jumped at Taft in the mid 1970s. I earned my SCR at Elsinore. Those are the only two Southern California DZs I have jumped at. NorCal DZs include Livermore, Antioch, Tracy, Santa Rosa, Pope Valley, Monterey and Byron.

Jumping this coming Saturday at Byron. I turn 72 soon. So grateful to still be able to skydive.

377
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on October 14, 2021, 07:43:39 PM
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Dudeman wrote: “ Also, apparently you're not going to confirm whether that was Taft you jumped at?  :P”

Sorry I missed the question. I jumped at Taft in the mid 1970s. I earned my SCR at Elsinore. Those are the only two Southern California DZs I have jumped at. NorCal DZs include Livermore, Antioch, Tracy, Santa Rosa, Pope Valley, Monterey and Byron.

Jumping this coming Saturday at Byron. I turn 72 soon. So grateful to still be able to skydive.

377


The original question was about the pics you posted fairly recently of your recurrency jumps. That kind of looked like Taft.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on October 15, 2021, 04:24:53 AM
Oh OK. Not Taft, but Byron CA. I have jumped at Taft and can see the resemblance. I jumped at Taft prior to that horrible Twin Beech takeoff crash. I jumped out of that Beech. The takeoffs overstuffed with jumpers on scorching hot days seemed iffy to me but I had no idea that it would end so badly.

The new DZO at Byron has upgraded the facilities with a large interconnected warren of modified shipping containers, trusses and corrugated roofing. It’s like a Mars outpost put together by NASA deserters  Even has a shipping container with tiny “rooms” that rent for $5 a night. The biggest upgrade is replacing the 4 porta potties with a sparking clean bathroom with flush toilets. It all goes into a tank for later pump out. Much more hospitable for the tandems.

Jumping there again on Saturday Oct 26 carrying HF VHF and UHF radios, GPS fed APRS transmitter, 5.4 GHz live video, bagged deployable end fed HF wire dipole and video and audio recording gear. Fully loaded.

See www.parachutemobile.com for gear details. Lots of ham radio operators reside in the Vortex. Fire up the rigs and work me. Special PACIFICON 2021 QSL cards to all contacts.

377
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on October 21, 2021, 09:47:04 PM
New episode out tonight. DB Cooper’s safety deposit box with Tim Collins aka SafecrackingPLF.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-safety-deposit-box-tim-collins/

Enjoy!

I’ve got some other great guests coming up, but I’m still waiting on a few of you guys to come on. If you’re on the fence I’d say maybe ask some one that’s been on, how their experience was. This show will last a pretty long time, but I’m not going to be doing it much longer. I’m talking to you Georger, Flyjack, Parrothead, shutter, and snowmman.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: fcastle866 on October 25, 2021, 01:04:43 PM
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New episode out tonight. DB Cooper’s safety deposit box with Tim Collins aka SafecrackingPLF.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-safety-deposit-box-tim-collins/

Enjoy!

I’ve got some other great guests coming up, but I’m still waiting on a few of you guys to come on. If you’re on the fence I’d say maybe ask some one that’s been on, how their experience was. This show will last a pretty long time, but I’m not going to be doing it much longer. I’m talking to you Georger, Flyjack, Parrothead, shutter, and snowmman.

3 hours is a lot to listen to.  Anyone know when he talks about Bayes or if he talks about Max Gunther?  Here are some comments on the parts I've listened to, and response to some of the posts on DZ.

Tim seems like a reasonable person. I like the approach of narrowing the field so to say, but I question some of the math.  He starts off taking a total US population of 225 million, then the next step is taking into account male smokers, then somewhere in there is wavy hair, pocket knife ownership, etc.  I don't think you can multiply the percentage of male smokers by the total population. You need to multiply the percentage of male smokers by the total male population.

The flaw in this is the overlap of what I would call conditions.  There is double counting going on.  If I take all the pocket knife owners, with wavy hair, with swarthy complexions, who smoked, then I might have more than the total population.  It would be like me adding together all the people in the US with high blood pressure and then adding in all the people who are overweight and who don't exercise.  These symptoms overlap, in that someone who has high blood pressure is also likely to not exercise, so I can only really count them once.  I learned this in detail when looking at populations to recruit from for military service.  We found that much of American youth had multiple disqualifying conditions, and that 18 year olds with criminal records often had poor grades and tested poorly on aptitude tests.  So even if we got them to prepare for the aptitude test and do well, it did not change the fact that they had other issues. Comorbid would be the medical term.

I do believe in narrowing the field, but would look at it a little differently.  Something in this order:

1.  Take the total male population in the US around 1970.  Make the assumption he was American. Add in Canada if you want.  He was not female.
2.  Take his age.  In 1970 there were about 25M males between the age of 35 and 60.
3.  Take out those who did not serve in the military (again an assumption)
4.  Take out East Asian, African American, and any other groups that he certainly was not a member of
5.  Now try to figure in smokers.  Take out PhDs, maybe take out Masters level.  Take out eye colors if you'd like.

It gets tricky when you start looking at overlaps, like brown eyes who served in the military who are of the right age.  But, you can definitely whittle down the total number.  But you can't get it down to 19 people like the podcast guest did.  Duane Weber is one of thousands of American males, maybe 10s of thousands that fit Cooper's description.  How does this help right now? It probably does not. But in the future with enough databases, the field can be narrowed.  Ancestry.com can do a lot simply by using the census data.  How many males, aged 35-60, of European descent, who lived in a certain area, who served in the military, etc.  It can be done.  And that then gives you the list of who's DNA to look at.  Possible, but not probable given our privacy laws.

Georger: Good points on DZ about probability.  Simple probability works.  How many times did a plane flying South on that route make the turn to the West?  To use probability we need to know what distribution to use, as in uniform, normal, Poisson, etc.  It is a complicated field, but it is often used to overcomplicate things. The parachute probably opened.  It probably got him to the ground.  But if we want to use Bayes and figure out what the probability of the chute getting him to the ground given the probability that it opened, then great.

I'm all for using math like in the podcast, but there needs to be a balance with common sense.  There are a lot of basic facts in this case that don't need to be made more complex.  I have graduate level classes in probability for engineers, and I can say that it is a very complex field.  Maybe not to the level of physics, but complex.  So it is easy for people to throw out a bunch of concepts that confuse or make people disengage.  I just don't see the need for deep complex math here.  Maybe some algebra, but not calculus so to say.  Well maybe a little calculus. :)

Last thing.  The podcast mentions left hand smoker.  Were there nicotine stains on both hands or just one, and if one, then which hand?

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on October 25, 2021, 02:04:24 PM
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New episode out tonight. DB Cooper’s safety deposit box with Tim Collins aka SafecrackingPLF.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-safety-deposit-box-tim-collins/

Enjoy!

I’ve got some other great guests coming up, but I’m still waiting on a few of you guys to come on. If you’re on the fence I’d say maybe ask some one that’s been on, how their experience was. This show will last a pretty long time, but I’m not going to be doing it much longer. I’m talking to you Georger, Flyjack, Parrothead, shutter, and snowmman.

3 hours is a lot to listen to.  Anyone know when he talks about Bayes or if he talks about Max Gunther?  Here are some comments on the parts I've listened to, and response to some of the posts on DZ.

Tim seems like a reasonable person. I like the approach of narrowing the field so to say, but I question some of the math.  He starts off taking a total US population of 225 million, then the next step is taking into account male smokers, then somewhere in there is wavy hair, pocket knife ownership, etc.  I don't think you can multiply the percentage of male smokers by the total population. You need to multiply the percentage of male smokers by the total male population.

The flaw in this is the overlap of what I would call conditions.  There is double counting going on.  If I take all the pocket knife owners, with wavy hair, with swarthy complexions, who smoked, then I might have more than the total population.  It would be like me adding together all the people in the US with high blood pressure and then adding in all the people who are overweight and who don't exercise.  These symptoms overlap, in that someone who has high blood pressure is also likely to not exercise, so I can only really count them once.  I learned this in detail when looking at populations to recruit from for military service.  We found that much of American youth had multiple disqualifying conditions, and that 18 year olds with criminal records often had poor grades and tested poorly on aptitude tests.  So even if we got them to prepare for the aptitude test and do well, it did not change the fact that they had other issues. Comorbid would be the medical term.

I do believe in narrowing the field, but would look at it a little differently.  Something in this order:

1.  Take the total male population in the US around 1970.  Make the assumption he was American. Add in Canada if you want.  He was not female.
2.  Take his age.  In 1970 there were about 25M males between the age of 35 and 60.
3.  Take out those who did not serve in the military (again an assumption)
4.  Take out East Asian, African American, and any other groups that he certainly was not a member of
5.  Now try to figure in smokers.  Take out PhDs, maybe take out Masters level.  Take out eye colors if you'd like.

It gets tricky when you start looking at overlaps, like brown eyes who served in the military who are of the right age.  But, you can definitely whittle down the total number.  But you can't get it down to 19 people like the podcast guest did.  Duane Weber is one of thousands of American males, maybe 10s of thousands that fit Cooper's description.  How does this help right now? It probably does not. But in the future with enough databases, the field can be narrowed.  Ancestry.com can do a lot simply by using the census data.  How many males, aged 35-60, of European descent, who lived in a certain area, who served in the military, etc.  It can be done.  And that then gives you the list of who's DNA to look at.  Possible, but not probable given our privacy laws.

Georger: Good points on DZ about probability.  Simple probability works.  How many times did a plane flying South on that route make the turn to the West?  To use probability we need to know what distribution to use, as in uniform, normal, Poisson, etc.  It is a complicated field, but it is often used to overcomplicate things. The parachute probably opened.  It probably got him to the ground.  But if we want to use Bayes and figure out what the probability of the chute getting him to the ground given the probability that it opened, then great.

I'm all for using math like in the podcast, but there needs to be a balance with common sense.  There are a lot of basic facts in this case that don't need to be made more complex.  I have graduate level classes in probability for engineers, and I can say that it is a very complex field.  Maybe not to the level of physics, but complex.  So it is easy for people to throw out a bunch of concepts that confuse or make people disengage.  I just don't see the need for deep complex math here.  Maybe some algebra, but not calculus so to say.  Well maybe a little calculus. :)

Last thing.  The podcast mentions left hand smoker.  Were there nicotine stains on both hands or just one, and if one, then which hand?

agree x10^42

no need for heavy artillery to swat a fly !  :rofl:    The claims far exceed actual performance, in any event.

Might as well just skip the heavy Advertizing, and go straight for a seance. Follow the shell, the bean, and the flashing hands!  ;)

It does fill time and space when bored.  :rofl:
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: JAG on October 25, 2021, 03:31:56 PM
As most here, I thoroughly enjoy Darren's podcast.  Some guests and theories are better than others.  I can certainly appreciate Tim's passion for his suspect and the case in general.  But Duane is a tough sell as a suspect, like trying to swim with a millstone tied to your waste.

I still have about ~40 minutes left, but my take so far:
- They talked about a cabin being broken into and a couple of food cans being stolen from it in the original drop zone within a few days of the hijacking--no valuables taken, just food.  I feel like this may have been discussed here before, but not sure.  But Darren seemed to not have heard about it before so not sure if it is really new info, but it's mildly interesting. 
- Gunther was mentioned briefly, it was speculated that Clare or Clara would have been one of Duane's previous wives i.e. not Jo....but again, no proof of it, just speculation....
- All in all, the case being made was based on a lot of coincidences that didn't really seem very compelling.  Ex:
  - Duane and Jo went to many different Casinos. Implication being he was laundering the money...no hard evidence
  - So Dwayne had a few lock boxes...many people do, doesn't mean he was Coop. 

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on October 25, 2021, 04:06:10 PM
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As most here, I thoroughly enjoy Darren's podcast.  Some guests and theories are better than others.  I can certainly appreciate Tim's passion for his suspect and the case in general.  But Duane is a tough sell as a suspect, like trying to swim with a millstone tied to your waste.

I still have about ~40 minutes left, but my take so far:
- They talked about a cabin being broken into and a couple of food cans being stolen from it in the original drop zone within a few days of the hijacking--no valuables taken, just food.  I feel like this may have been discussed here before, but not sure.  But Darren seemed to not have heard about it before so not sure if it is really new info, but it's mildly interesting. 
- Gunther was mentioned briefly, it was speculated that Clare or Clara would have been one of Duane's previous wives i.e. not Jo....but again, no proof of it, just speculation....
- All in all, the case being made was based on a lot of coincidences that didn't really seem very compelling.  Ex:
  - Duane and Jo went to many different Casinos. Implication being he was laundering the money...no hard evidence
  - So Dwayne had a few lock boxes...many people do, doesn't mean he was Coop.

Im still not sure who started all of this, Jo or Duane. At one point Jo told one person the Cooper story was 'good for business' and specifically an insurance business Jo and Duane were seeking to launch? That seems like flawed logic to me but who knows? What Jo was doing, day to day, is what got my attention. Jo was a consummate net-worker - Duane not so much and more private. Jo developed a network of people she contacted on a daily-weekly basis and this went on for years. That alone accounts for all of her files (Sluggo and Collins actually saw when they visited her). Jo's technique was highly refined! Jo used the 'back door method'. If Jo could not get to Himmelsbach directly, then get to H's wife, or several of his friends. JT and JT's wife remember when Jo first contacted him. JT's recollection is that Jo was claiming 'Duane might have been' DB Cooper - not that he was DB Cooper. There is a universe of difference. Jo developed a long relationship with H's wife, based on compassion and trading personal (female) anecdotes. Jo worked the crowd like any good saleswoman does, and her contacts quickly became 'informants'.

It was through these contacts (people off the map - people you would never think of - people adjacent to the Cooper case investigation) where Jo developed much of her information/ideas. When the Citizen sleuths formed Jo contacted people she could find immediately looking for inside information. I cut that off as best I could, immediately. It didnt take 24 hours for Jo to figure that out!  Jo called my home phone the next day several times and let several anonymous (female) snide remarks  basically challenging my "authority", as she worded it.

This was serious business with Jo Weber. It distresses me that anyone got sucked into this con job or perused Jo Weber's fantasies. The Cooper case has always attracted speculators and opportunists. The interference at times was great. I am sure there were discussions about prosecuting Jo Weber. My recollection is that Duane Weber himself protested on his deathbed asking to Jo to "Leave it alone!". It may be very clear what he was saying, requesting, and why . . .         

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on October 25, 2021, 08:25:23 PM
Our latest episode is out now!

DB Cooper’s Jump From the 727 with pilot, skydiver, and YouTuber Dan Gryder.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-jump-from-the-727-dan-gryder/

Let me know what you think!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: JAG on October 25, 2021, 10:10:58 PM
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As most here, I thoroughly enjoy Darren's podcast.  Some guests and theories are better than others.  I can certainly appreciate Tim's passion for his suspect and the case in general.  But Duane is a tough sell as a suspect, like trying to swim with a millstone tied to your waste.

I still have about ~40 minutes left, but my take so far:
- They talked about a cabin being broken into and a couple of food cans being stolen from it in the original drop zone within a few days of the hijacking--no valuables taken, just food.  I feel like this may have been discussed here before, but not sure.  But Darren seemed to not have heard about it before so not sure if it is really new info, but it's mildly interesting. 
- Gunther was mentioned briefly, it was speculated that Clare or Clara would have been one of Duane's previous wives i.e. not Jo....but again, no proof of it, just speculation....
- All in all, the case being made was based on a lot of coincidences that didn't really seem very compelling.  Ex:
  - Duane and Jo went to many different Casinos. Implication being he was laundering the money...no hard evidence
  - So Dwayne had a few lock boxes...many people do, doesn't mean he was Coop.

Im still not sure who started all of this, Jo or Duane. At one point Jo told one person the Cooper story was 'good for business' and specifically an insurance business Jo and Duane were seeking to launch? That seems like flawed logic to me but who knows? What Jo was doing, day to day, is what got my attention. Jo was a consummate net-worker - Duane not so much and more private. Jo developed a network of people she contacted on a daily-weekly basis and this went on for years. That alone accounts for all of her files (Sluggo and Collins actually saw when they visited her). Jo's technique was highly refined! Jo used the 'back door method'. If Jo could not get to Himmelsbach directly, then get to H's wife, or several of his friends. JT and JT's wife remember when Jo first contacted him. JT's recollection is that Jo was claiming 'Duane might have been' DB Cooper - not that he was DB Cooper. There is a universe of difference. Jo developed a long relationship with H's wife, based on compassion and trading personal (female) anecdotes. Jo worked the crowd like any good saleswoman does, and her contacts quickly became 'informants'.

It was through these contacts (people off the map - people you would never think of - people adjacent to the Cooper case investigation) where Jo developed much of her information/ideas. When the Citizen sleuths formed Jo contacted people she could find immediately looking for inside information. I cut that off as best I could, immediately. It didnt take 24 hours for Jo to figure that out!  Jo called my home phone the next day several times and let several anonymous (female) snide remarks  basically challenging my "authority", as she worded it.

This was serious business with Jo Weber. It distresses me that anyone got sucked into this con job or perused Jo Weber's fantasies. The Cooper case has always attracted speculators and opportunists. The interference at times was great. I am sure there were discussions about prosecuting Jo Weber. My recollection is that Duane Weber himself protested on his deathbed asking to Jo to "Leave it alone!". It may be very clear what he was saying, requesting, and why . . .         

Her tenacity is legendary ! 
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on October 26, 2021, 11:21:21 AM
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Our latest episode is out now!

DB Cooper’s Jump From the 727 with pilot, skydiver, and YouTuber Dan Gryder.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-jump-from-the-727-dan-gryder/

Let me know what you think!

I would like to make a wager that Gryder has not solved the case to Darren's satisfaction... and a side bet as to who his suspect is.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: fcastle866 on October 26, 2021, 12:12:45 PM
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Our latest episode is out now!

DB Cooper’s Jump From the 727 with pilot, skydiver, and YouTuber Dan Gryder.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-jump-from-the-727-dan-gryder/

Let me know what you think!

I would like to make a wager that Gryder has not solved the case to Darren's satisfaction... and a side bet as to who his suspect is.

Good podcast.  I don't see 99% of us thinking his suspect is Cooper, unless it is someone new who totally blows people away and there is evidence with it.  If it is an already known suspect, then I definitely don't see many of us buying into it.  I sense that people may already know who his suspect his having communicated with him in the past.  I first  heard about him just a few days ago, maybe a week, so I don't really know who he might name.  Seems like a real positive type of person, but I don't see anything out of the ordinary here.  It won't be Weber.  If it is one of the usual suspects (McCoy, Rackstraw) then whatever.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: JAG on October 26, 2021, 12:16:13 PM
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Our latest episode is out now!

DB Cooper’s Jump From the 727 with pilot, skydiver, and YouTuber Dan Gryder.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-jump-from-the-727-dan-gryder/

Let me know what you think!

I would like to make a wager that Gryder has not solved the case to Darren's satisfaction... and a side bet as to who his suspect is.

If nothing else comes out of it, it sounds as though he has a lot of video interviews with key people (RH and BR) so maybe there will be some more information/data to parse.

When Darren was talking about certain suspects not fitting the age profile that the eye witnesses estimated, I think Rackstraw and McCoy, he started to down play Tina's ability to accurately estimate a characteristic such as age.  He also indicated he believes that Cooper was using significant disguise tactics, certainly a reasonable assertion.   So my guess is his suspect is probably someone younger than the 40 to 55 age range.  Was it Parrothead or 377 who mentioned last week that he thought Dan's suspect was McCoy ?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on October 26, 2021, 04:56:44 PM
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You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Our latest episode is out now!

DB Cooper’s Jump From the 727 with pilot, skydiver, and YouTuber Dan Gryder.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-jump-from-the-727-dan-gryder/

Let me know what you think!

I would like to make a wager that Gryder has not solved the case to Darren's satisfaction... and a side bet as to who his suspect is.

If nothing else comes out of it, it sounds as though he has a lot of video interviews with key people (RH and BR) so maybe there will be some more information/data to parse.

When Darren was talking about certain suspects not fitting the age profile that the eye witnesses estimated, I think Rackstraw and McCoy, he started to down play Tina's ability to accurately estimate a characteristic such as age.  He also indicated he believes that Cooper was using significant disguise tactics, certainly a reasonable assertion.   So my guess is his suspect is probably someone younger than the 40 to 55 age range.  Was it Parrothead or 377 who mentioned last week that he thought Dan's suspect was McCoy ?

I was the one who thought Dan's suspect was McCoy. I may be way off base though. A few years ago (probably 2011 - 2014, I don't recall exactly), Gryder had a video on Youtube and he also posted a link to the video at the DZ. In the video he was seated at a table in a bank with two women who were bank employees. On the table was $200,000 in cash and some other items. I think he had a parachute but I don't recall everything that he had there. But he said that he would soon reveal who Cooper was and what happened to him. He said that everything you see in the video there in front of him is all that you need to solve the case. One of the items he had was what he referred to as a "simulated gun". McCoy used a gun in his hijacking and used a fake gun made out of dental paste during his prison escape. That is the reason that I have always thought his guy was McCoy. I may be reading too much into it. The video was taken down a few years ago.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on October 31, 2021, 10:46:29 PM
New episode out now! DB Cooper is no Robin Hood with Clarke Mayer.

Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-is-no-robin-hood-clarke-mayer/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on November 01, 2021, 02:47:34 PM
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New episode out now! DB Cooper is no Robin Hood with Clarke Mayer.

Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-is-no-robin-hood-clarke-mayer/

Sometimes, a cigar is just a cigar, and not a camel !
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Lynn on November 06, 2021, 04:48:28 AM
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New episode out tonight. DB Cooper’s safety deposit box with Tim Collins aka SafecrackingPLF.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-safety-deposit-box-tim-collins/

Enjoy!

I’ve got some other great guests coming up, but I’m still waiting on a few of you guys to come on. If you’re on the fence I’d say maybe ask some one that’s been on, how their experience was. This show will last a pretty long time, but I’m not going to be doing it much longer. I’m talking to you Georger, Flyjack, Parrothead, shutter, and snowmman.

3 hours is a lot to listen to.  Anyone know when he talks about Bayes or if he talks about Max Gunther?  Here are some comments on the parts I've listened to, and response to some of the posts on DZ.

Tim seems like a reasonable person. I like the approach of narrowing the field so to say, but I question some of the math.  He starts off taking a total US population of 225 million, then the next step is taking into account male smokers, then somewhere in there is wavy hair, pocket knife ownership, etc.  I don't think you can multiply the percentage of male smokers by the total population. You need to multiply the percentage of male smokers by the total male population.

The flaw in this is the overlap of what I would call conditions.  There is double counting going on.  If I take all the pocket knife owners, with wavy hair, with swarthy complexions, who smoked, then I might have more than the total population.  It would be like me adding together all the people in the US with high blood pressure and then adding in all the people who are overweight and who don't exercise.  These symptoms overlap, in that someone who has high blood pressure is also likely to not exercise, so I can only really count them once.  I learned this in detail when looking at populations to recruit from for military service.  We found that much of American youth had multiple disqualifying conditions, and that 18 year olds with criminal records often had poor grades and tested poorly on aptitude tests.  So even if we got them to prepare for the aptitude test and do well, it did not change the fact that they had other issues. Comorbid would be the medical term.

I do believe in narrowing the field, but would look at it a little differently.  Something in this order:

1.  Take the total male population in the US around 1970.  Make the assumption he was American. Add in Canada if you want.  He was not female.
2.  Take his age.  In 1970 there were about 25M males between the age of 35 and 60.
3.  Take out those who did not serve in the military (again an assumption)
4.  Take out East Asian, African American, and any other groups that he certainly was not a member of
5.  Now try to figure in smokers.  Take out PhDs, maybe take out Masters level.  Take out eye colors if you'd like.

It gets tricky when you start looking at overlaps, like brown eyes who served in the military who are of the right age.  But, you can definitely whittle down the total number.  But you can't get it down to 19 people like the podcast guest did.  Duane Weber is one of thousands of American males, maybe 10s of thousands that fit Cooper's description.  How does this help right now? It probably does not. But in the future with enough databases, the field can be narrowed.  Ancestry.com can do a lot simply by using the census data.  How many males, aged 35-60, of European descent, who lived in a certain area, who served in the military, etc.  It can be done.  And that then gives you the list of who's DNA to look at.  Possible, but not probable given our privacy laws.

Georger: Good points on DZ about probability.  Simple probability works.  How many times did a plane flying South on that route make the turn to the West?  To use probability we need to know what distribution to use, as in uniform, normal, Poisson, etc.  It is a complicated field, but it is often used to overcomplicate things. The parachute probably opened.  It probably got him to the ground.  But if we want to use Bayes and figure out what the probability of the chute getting him to the ground given the probability that it opened, then great.

I'm all for using math like in the podcast, but there needs to be a balance with common sense.  There are a lot of basic facts in this case that don't need to be made more complex.  I have graduate level classes in probability for engineers, and I can say that it is a very complex field.  Maybe not to the level of physics, but complex.  So it is easy for people to throw out a bunch of concepts that confuse or make people disengage.  I just don't see the need for deep complex math here.  Maybe some algebra, but not calculus so to say.  Well maybe a little calculus. :)

Last thing.  The podcast mentions left hand smoker.  Were there nicotine stains on both hands or just one, and if one, then which hand?
I don't believe nicotine stains were mentioned - some smokers don't have them, even heavy smokers. There's also the possibility he was an occasional, stress-only smoker, or acting the smoker to throw ppl off - most smokers carry a lighter, and did then, often Zippos or other refillable ones (knew a very hairy guy who set his hand on fire that way) only bothering with matches if the lighter quits. Which of course may have happened. The ciggies he smoked were cheap and had coupons you could redeem for more smokes, I think.

I don't think his smoking left-handed means anything; his right hand was on the bomb, and I think he would have had his dominant hand there. I've been a smoker and smoked with my left hand if I was writing or using the mouse with my right.

Your list of attributes seems reasonable. He certainly wasn't of North or East Asian or African descent. Military is also reasonable given the time in history, when ppl were alive who'd served in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. Canada or America works - my American friends say they wouldn't know I was Canadian by accent, though ppl have figured it out online at times by spelling.

Brown eye colour I'm not convinced about. Flo was the only one who said she saw his eyes, and "brown" was changed to "possibly brown" or something like that in the released description. Dim lighting could also have affected how people in different parts of the plane perceived his hair and clothing colours. Tina's description is obviously favoured as she spent the most time with him, followed by Bill Mitchell's early statements as someone who was nearby and did notice and study him out of youthful jealousy.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on November 06, 2021, 11:16:02 PM
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New episode out tonight. DB Cooper’s safety deposit box with Tim Collins aka SafecrackingPLF.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-safety-deposit-box-tim-collins/

Enjoy!

I’ve got some other great guests coming up, but I’m still waiting on a few of you guys to come on. If you’re on the fence I’d say maybe ask some one that’s been on, how their experience was. This show will last a pretty long time, but I’m not going to be doing it much longer. I’m talking to you Georger, Flyjack, Parrothead, shutter, and snowmman.

3 hours is a lot to listen to.  Anyone know when he talks about Bayes or if he talks about Max Gunther?  Here are some comments on the parts I've listened to, and response to some of the posts on DZ.

Tim seems like a reasonable person. I like the approach of narrowing the field so to say, but I question some of the math.  He starts off taking a total US population of 225 million, then the next step is taking into account male smokers, then somewhere in there is wavy hair, pocket knife ownership, etc.  I don't think you can multiply the percentage of male smokers by the total population. You need to multiply the percentage of male smokers by the total male population.

The flaw in this is the overlap of what I would call conditions.  There is double counting going on.  If I take all the pocket knife owners, with wavy hair, with swarthy complexions, who smoked, then I might have more than the total population.  It would be like me adding together all the people in the US with high blood pressure and then adding in all the people who are overweight and who don't exercise.  These symptoms overlap, in that someone who has high blood pressure is also likely to not exercise, so I can only really count them once.  I learned this in detail when looking at populations to recruit from for military service.  We found that much of American youth had multiple disqualifying conditions, and that 18 year olds with criminal records often had poor grades and tested poorly on aptitude tests.  So even if we got them to prepare for the aptitude test and do well, it did not change the fact that they had other issues. Comorbid would be the medical term.

I do believe in narrowing the field, but would look at it a little differently.  Something in this order:

1.  Take the total male population in the US around 1970.  Make the assumption he was American. Add in Canada if you want.  He was not female.
2.  Take his age.  In 1970 there were about 25M males between the age of 35 and 60.
3.  Take out those who did not serve in the military (again an assumption)
4.  Take out East Asian, African American, and any other groups that he certainly was not a member of
5.  Now try to figure in smokers.  Take out PhDs, maybe take out Masters level.  Take out eye colors if you'd like.

It gets tricky when you start looking at overlaps, like brown eyes who served in the military who are of the right age.  But, you can definitely whittle down the total number.  But you can't get it down to 19 people like the podcast guest did.  Duane Weber is one of thousands of American males, maybe 10s of thousands that fit Cooper's description.  How does this help right now? It probably does not. But in the future with enough databases, the field can be narrowed.  Ancestry.com can do a lot simply by using the census data.  How many males, aged 35-60, of European descent, who lived in a certain area, who served in the military, etc.  It can be done.  And that then gives you the list of who's DNA to look at.  Possible, but not probable given our privacy laws.

Georger: Good points on DZ about probability.  Simple probability works.  How many times did a plane flying South on that route make the turn to the West?  To use probability we need to know what distribution to use, as in uniform, normal, Poisson, etc.  It is a complicated field, but it is often used to overcomplicate things. The parachute probably opened.  It probably got him to the ground.  But if we want to use Bayes and figure out what the probability of the chute getting him to the ground given the probability that it opened, then great.

I'm all for using math like in the podcast, but there needs to be a balance with common sense.  There are a lot of basic facts in this case that don't need to be made more complex.  I have graduate level classes in probability for engineers, and I can say that it is a very complex field.  Maybe not to the level of physics, but complex.  So it is easy for people to throw out a bunch of concepts that confuse or make people disengage.  I just don't see the need for deep complex math here.  Maybe some algebra, but not calculus so to say.  Well maybe a little calculus. :)

Last thing.  The podcast mentions left hand smoker.  Were there nicotine stains on both hands or just one, and if one, then which hand?
I don't believe nicotine stains were mentioned - some smokers don't have them, even heavy smokers. There's also the possibility he was an occasional, stress-only smoker, or acting the smoker to throw ppl off - most smokers carry a lighter, and did then, often Zippos or other refillable ones (knew a very hairy guy who set his hand on fire that way) only bothering with matches if the lighter quits. Which of course may have happened. The ciggies he smoked were cheap and had coupons you could redeem for more smokes, I think.

I don't think his smoking left-handed means anything; his right hand was on the bomb, and I think he would have had his dominant hand there. I've been a smoker and smoked with my left hand if I was writing or using the mouse with my right.

Your list of attributes seems reasonable. He certainly wasn't of North or East Asian or African descent. Military is also reasonable given the time in history, when ppl were alive who'd served in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. Canada or America works - my American friends say they wouldn't know I was Canadian by accent, though ppl have figured it out online at times by spelling.

Brown eye colour I'm not convinced about. Flo was the only one who said she saw his eyes, and "brown" was changed to "possibly brown" or something like that in the released description. Dim lighting could also have affected how people in different parts of the plane perceived his hair and clothing colours. Tina's description is obviously favoured as she spent the most time with him, followed by Bill Mitchell's early statements as someone who was nearby and did notice and study him out of youthful jealousy.

Smoke, smoking stains, and tobacco could have had high forensic value. Cuban cigars vs Raleighs ? Finger nails, teeth, lung tissue, . . . years of smoking are impossible to erase. 
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: fcastle866 on November 07, 2021, 12:40:06 PM
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New episode out tonight. DB Cooper’s safety deposit box with Tim Collins aka SafecrackingPLF.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-safety-deposit-box-tim-collins/

Enjoy!

I’ve got some other great guests coming up, but I’m still waiting on a few of you guys to come on. If you’re on the fence I’d say maybe ask some one that’s been on, how their experience was. This show will last a pretty long time, but I’m not going to be doing it much longer. I’m talking to you Georger, Flyjack, Parrothead, shutter, and snowmman.

3 hours is a lot to listen to.  Anyone know when he talks about Bayes or if he talks about Max Gunther?  Here are some comments on the parts I've listened to, and response to some of the posts on DZ.

Tim seems like a reasonable person. I like the approach of narrowing the field so to say, but I question some of the math.  He starts off taking a total US population of 225 million, then the next step is taking into account male smokers, then somewhere in there is wavy hair, pocket knife ownership, etc.  I don't think you can multiply the percentage of male smokers by the total population. You need to multiply the percentage of male smokers by the total male population.

The flaw in this is the overlap of what I would call conditions.  There is double counting going on.  If I take all the pocket knife owners, with wavy hair, with swarthy complexions, who smoked, then I might have more than the total population.  It would be like me adding together all the people in the US with high blood pressure and then adding in all the people who are overweight and who don't exercise.  These symptoms overlap, in that someone who has high blood pressure is also likely to not exercise, so I can only really count them once.  I learned this in detail when looking at populations to recruit from for military service.  We found that much of American youth had multiple disqualifying conditions, and that 18 year olds with criminal records often had poor grades and tested poorly on aptitude tests.  So even if we got them to prepare for the aptitude test and do well, it did not change the fact that they had other issues. Comorbid would be the medical term.

I do believe in narrowing the field, but would look at it a little differently.  Something in this order:

1.  Take the total male population in the US around 1970.  Make the assumption he was American. Add in Canada if you want.  He was not female.
2.  Take his age.  In 1970 there were about 25M males between the age of 35 and 60.
3.  Take out those who did not serve in the military (again an assumption)
4.  Take out East Asian, African American, and any other groups that he certainly was not a member of
5.  Now try to figure in smokers.  Take out PhDs, maybe take out Masters level.  Take out eye colors if you'd like.

It gets tricky when you start looking at overlaps, like brown eyes who served in the military who are of the right age.  But, you can definitely whittle down the total number.  But you can't get it down to 19 people like the podcast guest did.  Duane Weber is one of thousands of American males, maybe 10s of thousands that fit Cooper's description.  How does this help right now? It probably does not. But in the future with enough databases, the field can be narrowed.  Ancestry.com can do a lot simply by using the census data.  How many males, aged 35-60, of European descent, who lived in a certain area, who served in the military, etc.  It can be done.  And that then gives you the list of who's DNA to look at.  Possible, but not probable given our privacy laws.

Georger: Good points on DZ about probability.  Simple probability works.  How many times did a plane flying South on that route make the turn to the West?  To use probability we need to know what distribution to use, as in uniform, normal, Poisson, etc.  It is a complicated field, but it is often used to overcomplicate things. The parachute probably opened.  It probably got him to the ground.  But if we want to use Bayes and figure out what the probability of the chute getting him to the ground given the probability that it opened, then great.

I'm all for using math like in the podcast, but there needs to be a balance with common sense.  There are a lot of basic facts in this case that don't need to be made more complex.  I have graduate level classes in probability for engineers, and I can say that it is a very complex field.  Maybe not to the level of physics, but complex.  So it is easy for people to throw out a bunch of concepts that confuse or make people disengage.  I just don't see the need for deep complex math here.  Maybe some algebra, but not calculus so to say.  Well maybe a little calculus. :)

Last thing.  The podcast mentions left hand smoker.  Were there nicotine stains on both hands or just one, and if one, then which hand?
I don't believe nicotine stains were mentioned - some smokers don't have them, even heavy smokers. There's also the possibility he was an occasional, stress-only smoker, or acting the smoker to throw ppl off - most smokers carry a lighter, and did then, often Zippos or other refillable ones (knew a very hairy guy who set his hand on fire that way) only bothering with matches if the lighter quits. Which of course may have happened. The ciggies he smoked were cheap and had coupons you could redeem for more smokes, I think.

I don't think his smoking left-handed means anything; his right hand was on the bomb, and I think he would have had his dominant hand there. I've been a smoker and smoked with my left hand if I was writing or using the mouse with my right.

Your list of attributes seems reasonable. He certainly wasn't of North or East Asian or African descent. Military is also reasonable given the time in history, when ppl were alive who'd served in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam. Canada or America works - my American friends say they wouldn't know I was Canadian by accent, though ppl have figured it out online at times by spelling.

Brown eye colour I'm not convinced about. Flo was the only one who said she saw his eyes, and "brown" was changed to "possibly brown" or something like that in the released description. Dim lighting could also have affected how people in different parts of the plane perceived his hair and clothing colours. Tina's description is obviously favoured as she spent the most time with him, followed by Bill Mitchell's early statements as someone who was nearby and did notice and study him out of youthful jealousy.

Post on DZ mentions cigarette stains via Himmelsbach, and a 302.  https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=4955526

https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=4952992

-https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=4955526-
-https://www.dropzone.com/forums/topic/56036-db-cooper/?do=findComment&comment=4952992-

Whether this is accurate or not, it is mentioned enough times.  I believe Cooper was a smoker, heavy enough to be comfortable with it.  Not unusual for a man of that age and time, especially if he had served in the military and worked a laborers/blue collar type job.  Raleigh was not a high end cigarette.

The right hand/left hand thing.  Like anything in life, there are always exceptions to the rule, but in general people smoke with their dominant hand.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on November 07, 2021, 09:10:53 PM
Dr Robert Edwards DB Cooper and Flight 305 will be out November 24th, but you can listen to him on my show now.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-and-flight-305-dr-robert-edwards/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on November 08, 2021, 01:22:38 AM
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Dr Robert Edwards DB Cooper and Flight 305 will be out November 24th, but you can listen to him on my show now.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-and-flight-305-dr-robert-edwards/

Informative. Probably a landmark work. Would love to know what his thoughts on diatoms were - will buy his book.

The next important interview you do pick a quite place! 
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Dfs346 on November 08, 2021, 03:15:17 AM
The book has a chapter on diatoms, with input from Claudia Tausz who wrote her master's thesis on diatoms in the Columbia River. This chapter also includes an analysis of diatom sites in the Columbia/Willamette basin, based on the USGS BIODATA database, focussing on asterionella and fragilaria genera.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: JAG on November 08, 2021, 07:09:32 AM
Very interesting, I am going to have to listen to this a few more times. 

- The point was made that the conditions under which the sled test were conducted were different from the hijacking in terms of altitude (7000 ft vs 10,000 ft), and that the cockpit door was open instead of closed.  But I couldn't exactly get if he was saying that the results are invalid?  Was he saying that the pressure bump may not have been when Coop jumped ? 

- He has a different drop zone, I believe based on different analysis or interpretation of the winds aloft vs the wind changing at lower altitudes, maybe some additional data ?  But was it based on the ~8:11pm jump ?  If so, I thought he was implying that the bump may not be the jump marker ?

- Also sounds like he challenged the idea:
  - That the money sinks and cannot be transported long distances via river flow
  - That the specific diatoms found are only found directly in the Colombia

Anyway, it was a good tease for his book...I'm sure I will be picking it up at some point.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 08, 2021, 01:47:44 PM
I listened to the podcast this morning.

JAG's review is pretty much spot on. What I will say is that it seems that some of his conclusions will ruffle the feathers of some high-profile investigators as they challenge some long-held beliefs.

I am looking forward to reading the book and seeing the data for myself.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on November 08, 2021, 02:25:54 PM
Years ago I tried to get the statistician John Allen Paulos interested in the Cooper case, to no avail. John is the author of "Innumeracy": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Paulos    I am sure Edwards knows who Paulos is. This could become very interesting. Edward's ability to challenge long held assumptions is long overdue. It's long passed due. 

I have felt for a long time that the Cooper case was sliding into oblivion - Edwards may just have saved it!

Edwards is a breath of fresh air.  :congrats:
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on November 08, 2021, 02:58:25 PM
Will an E-book version of the book be available ?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Dfs346 on November 08, 2021, 03:05:32 PM
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Will an E-book version of the book be available ?
I will ask Schiffer.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 08, 2021, 03:39:06 PM
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Years ago I tried to get the statistician John Allen Paulos interested in the Cooper case, to no avail. John is the author of "Innumeracy": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Allen_Paulos    I am sure Edwards knows who Paulos is. This could become very interesting. Edward's ability to challenge long held assumptions is long overdue. It's long passed due. 

I have felt for a long time that the Cooper case was sliding into oblivion - Edwards may just have saved it!

Edwards is a breath of fresh air.  :congrats:
That said, based on his implications on the podcast, his conclusions will stand in stark contrast to those of several high-profile researchers and will almost certainly frustrate their narratives.

Whether he is right or wrong is dependent on his evidence and data. I look forward to reading his book and seeing what he's got.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Dfs346 on November 09, 2021, 02:29:58 PM
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Will an E-book version of the book be available ?
Schiffer replied: "we will do so at a later stage – for the moment only the book is available".
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on November 09, 2021, 11:31:14 PM
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Will an E-book version of the book be available ?
Schiffer replied: "we will do so at a later stage – for the moment only the book is available".

Thanks Dfs ...
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: fcastle866 on November 10, 2021, 11:05:39 AM
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Will an E-book version of the book be available ?
Schiffer replied: "we will do so at a later stage – for the moment only the book is available".

Thanks Dfs ...

I finished listening to the podcast.  It was just enough of a teaser for the book. Good job.  I was surprised at how hard it is to get a book published.  It sort of underlines the fact that interest in the case may be focused amongst a small group of people.  I hope the book sells well.  The other interesting piece was the discussion about the sled test.  Did I understand correctly that the FBI has a video of that and just has not released it yet? 

Anyone know how many 302's are still left to be released?  10% of total? 50%?

DFS if you do an audiobook, you could narrate it yourself.  It took me a bit to place your voice, but you are a dead ringer for the actor Terrence Stamp (Young Guns, Superman, Star Wars).
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: JAG on November 10, 2021, 12:02:06 PM
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Will an E-book version of the book be available ?
Schiffer replied: "we will do so at a later stage – for the moment only the book is available".

Thanks Dfs ...

I finished listening to the podcast.  It was just enough of a teaser for the book. Good job.  I was surprised at how hard it is to get a book published.  It sort of underlines the fact that interest in the case may be focused amongst a small group of people.  I hope the book sells well.  The other interesting piece was the discussion about the sled test.  Did I understand correctly that the FBI has a video of that and just has not released it yet? 

Anyone know how many 302's are still left to be released?  10% of total? 50%?

DFS if you do an audiobook, you could narrate it yourself.  It took me a bit to place your voice, but you are a dead ringer for the actor Terrence Stamp (Young Guns, Superman, Star Wars).

Great call on the accent/voice...."Regulators, mount up !"
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Kermit on November 10, 2021, 01:21:52 PM
I listened. To the entire Podcast ! Very impressed with both Darren’s questions and Robert’s entire way he approaches the case. He deals with facts and goes in without any preconceived suspects or opinions !
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on November 10, 2021, 01:55:04 PM
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DFS if you do an audiobook, you could narrate it yourself.  It took me a bit to place your voice, but you are a dead ringer for the actor Terrence Stamp (Young Guns, Superman, Star Wars).

Fcastle, Dr. Robert Edwards is also a dead ringer for Robert Isaac Harker which is his motion picture screen name.  I also understand that he does presentations of various types in connection with his Edwards Economic Research organization.

Check out  <https://www.mandy.com>uk>robert-isaac-harker/uk/actor/robert-isaac-harker> for more information.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Dfs346 on November 10, 2021, 03:14:19 PM
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<> discussion about the sled test.  Did I understand correctly that the FBI has a video of that and just has not released it yet?
Having seen the color still image on the archived site n467us.com and the three monochrome stills (by courtesy of Robert99), I submitted a FOIA request to the FBI for the full video. That was on 06.14.2020. The request was denied as "not consistent with FBI terms of service". I resubmitted the request on 11.12.2020 citing the FBI's previous release of the video to Unsolved Mysteries/History Channel, as per their letter dated 06.23.2005 (attached). My second request is still in the database and the current status is "The information you have requested is part of a previously requested subject matter and will be preprocessed in accordance to the prior releasable information."
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Dfs346 on November 10, 2021, 03:21:03 PM
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surprised at how hard it is to get a book published.  It sort of underlines the fact that interest in the case may be focused amongst a small group of people.

I learned that most publishers (and all the big names) work exclusively through literary agents and will generally not accept a proposal from an author. Literary agents universally require an author's proposal to conform to their personal reading tastes, which they specify on their webpages and which are often narrowly defined. Schiffer is one of the few publishers who are happy to receive proposals direct from authors.

I think there's a wide audience for a new narrative of the case of Flight 305, providing that it's framed within the "mystery" or "true crime" genres.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Dfs346 on November 10, 2021, 03:27:45 PM
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how many 302's are still left to be released?  10% of total? 50%?

If the FBI were working chronologically through their case files, we might expect that about 30 years' worth (1971-about 2001) have been approved for release with redactions, and about 15 years' worth (2001-2016) remain. But I have the impression that the last 15 batches (#49-#64) are recycling materials from the 1970s.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Dfs346 on November 14, 2021, 06:17:37 AM
Look out for "D. B. Cooper and Flight 305" on "Vanished" with Chris Williamson, broadcasting on November 24, 2021. http://vanishedshow.com
@vanishedpod
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 17, 2021, 12:09:52 AM
DB Cooper and Flight 305 - the new book

I got my copy of Edwards' book today, DB Cooper and Flight 305 - Re-Examining the Hijacking and Disappearanceand just finished reading it. A few thoughts/impressions. I revert to my initial assessment of a few days ago - it's an uneven book. On one hand it is an impressive and substantive work, loaded with details and sound analysis. Some of you guys are gonna have orgasms when you read it. But others of us will be reaching for migraine medication, as it is mind-numbing in its minutiae. Imagine reading a thousand 302s without the redactions. Or reading the instructional manual for repairing a transmission on a Mercedes Benz - laudable but only if you're getting paid to fix the damn vehicle.

A couple basic take-aways from Edwards' conclusions. First, he kind of agrees with the "FBI" flight path, i.e.: V-23 all the way, but disagrees with the time of the jump, claiming the NWO/FBI conclusion of 8:11 pm and over Highland, WA is inaccurate. He says this because he feels the FBI and NWO confused the earlier aftstair oscillations as the pressure jump. Edwards posits that they were two different, but related, phenomena.

As a result, he puts DBC jumping at 8:13, and claims that time frame puts Flight 305 on the southern shore of the Columbia. Further, Edwards says that DBC had a 70% likelihood of landing into the Columbia River. He figures Coop's remains are on the eastern shoreline of Hayden Island, a couple of miles west of PDX.

Edwards relies heavily on the recent "302" document release from the FBI, and he benefited from an very intimate relationship with the WSHM. This book is well-annotated and cited, and in that regard has no peer in the Cooper firmament. However, it is not cross-referenced with interviews with any principals. Everyone is based upon the Norjak documentation left behind after the closing in 2016 - from FBI agents, George Harrison's notes, ARCINC transcripts and such.

In short, DB Cooper and Flight 305 - Re-examining the Hijacking and Disappearance is a powerful book. It's also very weighty, and I mean that both metaphorically and physically. Imagine a thick National Geographic magazine with a bullet-proof hard cover. The darn thing is so heavy it almost slipped out of my hands when I first retrieved it up from my mailbox. It's also a very beautiful book - elegant even - and richly peppered with maps and graphs, which are all in color. It's a classy book and a bargain at $29.95. It's hard to figure how Schiffer Publishing is gonna make a dime on this thing unless half of America buys a copy for Christmas.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 17, 2021, 02:15:24 AM
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DB Cooper and Flight 305 - the new book

I got my copy of Edwards' book today, DB Cooper and Flight 305 - Re-Examining the Hijacking and Disappearanceand just finished reading it. A few thoughts/impressions. I revert to my initial assessment of a few days ago - it's an uneven book. On one hand it is an impressive and substantive work, loaded with details and sound analysis. Some of you guys are gonna have orgasms when you read it. But others of us will be reaching for migraine medication, as it is mind-numbing in its minutiae. Imagine reading a thousand 302s without the redactions. Or reading the instructional manual for repairing a transmission on a Mercedes Benz - laudable but only if you're getting paid to fix the damn vehicle.

A couple basic take-aways from Edwards' conclusions. First, he kind of agrees with the "FBI" flight path, i.e.: V-23 all the way, but disagrees with the time of the jump, claiming the NWO/FBI conclusion of 8:11 pm and over Highland, WA is inaccurate. He says this because he feels the FBI and NWO confused the earlier aftstair oscillations as the pressure jump. Edwards posits that they were two different, but related, phenomena.

As a result, he puts DBC jumping at 8:13, and claims that time frame puts Flight 305 on the southern shore of the Columbia. Further, Edwards says that DBC had a 70% likelihood of landing into the Columbia River. He figures Coop's remains are on the eastern shoreline of Hayden Island, a couple of miles west of PDX.

Edwards relies heavily on the recent "302" document release from the FBI, and he benefited from an very intimate relationship with the WSHM. This book is well-annotated and cited, and in that regard has no peer in the Cooper firmament. However, it is not cross-referenced with interviews with any principals. Everyone is based upon the Norjak documentation left behind after the closing in 2016 - from FBI agents, George Harrison's notes, ARCINC transcripts and such.

In short, DB Cooper and Flight 305 - Re-examining the Hijacking and Disappearance is a powerful book. It's also very weighty, and I mean that both metaphorically and physically. Imagine a thick National Geographic magazine with a bullet-proof hard cover. The darn thing is so heavy it almost slipped out of my hands when I first retrieved it up from my mailbox. It's also a very beautiful book - elegant even - and richly peppered with maps and graphs, which are all in color. It's a classy book and a bargain at $29.95. It's hard to figure how Schiffer Publishing is gonna make a dime on this thing unless half of America buys a copy for Christmas.

There's some wrong math in the 70% calculation. I believe the right equation comes out to 70.33333% ..repeating, of course.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 17, 2021, 03:51:13 AM
Hmmmm.... I thought Edwards' exact notation was 68.7% for landing IN the Columbia. I took some literary license and figured I could round it up to 70% in case DBC landed in wet sand or something not technically Columbia River water.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on November 17, 2021, 10:45:16 AM
How does Edwards put the plane over Portland at 8:13? This goes against the FBI map, however he's using the FBI map for location? What's his reasoning?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: fcastle866 on November 17, 2021, 02:24:46 PM
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How does Edwards put the plane over Portland at 8:13? This goes against the FBI map, however he's using the FBI map for location? What's his reasoning?

I'm curious of this too Martin.  I just grabbed your book to look at Harold Anderson's statement.  When we look at time, it can get confusing, simply because no one knows exactly what time something happened.  Normally that is not a big deal.  Like saying, "he was five minutes late." Who is ever exactly five minutes late?  It could be 4 minutes, it could be 6, so and so forth.

However, Anderson does say he felt the bumps etc. before they were in Portland proper. He says they were definitely in the suburbs.  I've interpreted that as being north of PDX.  I guess one could technically say that over the river is not Portland, but I'm seeing this as they had not gotten to the river yet. So, regardless of if it was 8:10 or 8:12, Cooper was not near the river and would really have had to had some drift in order to get in the river.

This of course hinges on the belief that the activity (bumps/oscillations) were him jumping or waiting on the edge of the stairs ready to jump.  For those who say he jumped near Reno or somewhere else, I would prefer to see documentation that something happened.  The pilots seem to believe they knew when something was going on in their plane, regardless of if the sled test did not emulate it perfectly.

So, if someone says he jumped at 8:10 and that puts him near Ariel, and someone says 8:12 near Battle Ground, and someone says 8:13 near Vancouver, I guess I could argue any of those, but I find it difficult to argue that he jumped over the river. A river landing sounds cool, but it is a hard target to hit given all the land around it.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on November 17, 2021, 03:20:52 PM
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How does Edwards put the plane over Portland at 8:13? This goes against the FBI map, however he's using the FBI map for location? What's his reasoning?

I'm curious of this too Martin.  I just grabbed your book to look at Harold Anderson's statement.  When we look at time, it can get confusing, simply because no one knows exactly what time something happened.  Normally that is not a big deal.  Like saying, "he was five minutes late." Who is ever exactly five minutes late?  It could be 4 minutes, it could be 6, so and so forth.

However, Anderson does say he felt the bumps etc. before they were in Portland proper. He says they were definitely in the suburbs.  I've interpreted that as being north of PDX.  I guess one could technically say that over the river is not Portland, but I'm seeing this as they had not gotten to the river yet. So, regardless of if it was 8:10 or 8:12, Cooper was not near the river and would really have had to had some drift in order to get in the river.

This of course hinges on the belief that the activity (bumps/oscillations) were him jumping or waiting on the edge of the stairs ready to jump.  For those who say he jumped near Reno or somewhere else, I would prefer to see documentation that something happened.  The pilots seem to believe they knew when something was going on in their plane, regardless of if the sled test did not emulate it perfectly.

So, if someone says he jumped at 8:10 and that puts him near Ariel, and someone says 8:12 near Battle Ground, and someone says 8:13 near Vancouver, I guess I could argue any of those, but I find it difficult to argue that he jumped over the river. A river landing sounds cool, but it is a hard target to hit given all the land around it.

Tosaw argued (published and told everyone) that Cooper landed IN THE RIVER. His argument never cited any flight path facts. His argument was THAT THE MONEY AT TINA BAR required a river landing.

If a horse hair had been found with the money, then someone would require Cooper was riding a horse when he parachuted into the river from 305! We would then be looking for where on the airplane Cooper had a horse stored, and who brought the horse aboard 305 when!   
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: northern flight path on November 17, 2021, 03:24:13 PM
If you say mucklowmucklowmucklowmucklowmucklow it kind of sounds like a horse walking.

that's your first clue....
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 17, 2021, 03:37:23 PM
My understanding is that the author’s premise is that the oscillations and the pressure bump are two distinct yet related events and that the bump did not occur simultaneously with the oscillations but later on as the plane was closer to the river.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 17, 2021, 04:06:02 PM
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How does Edwards put the plane over Portland at 8:13? This goes against the FBI map, however he's using the FBI map for location? What's his reasoning?

My understanding of Edwards' research is that he figures the oscillations preceded the pressure bump because they were a reflection of Cooper walking down the stairs. He assesses that the FBI and NWO linked the oscillations and bump as one event - at 8:11 - and calculated that they happened over Highland. The search strategies and on the ground and air proceeded from there.

However, Edwards assesses that the bump actually occurred at 8:13, and that 305 had just crossed the Columbia.

Edwards spends many pages backing these assessments and dives very deeply into the 302s and WSHM archival material. He has even determined that six different individuals were recording times and locations on the transcripts, and determined that Individual "F" is the most accurate and thus, he uses his calculations.

I think you're gonna love Edwards' book. You may disagree with his conclusions, but his leg work is outstanding. There is no one who has a more complete presentation of the documentation from Norjak. Not me, nor GG - not by a long shot.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on November 17, 2021, 05:06:14 PM
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How does Edwards put the plane over Portland at 8:13? This goes against the FBI map, however he's using the FBI map for location? What's his reasoning?

My understanding of Edwards' research is that he figures the oscillations preceded the pressure bump because they were a reflection of Cooper walking down the stairs. He assesses that the FBI and NWO linked the oscillations and bump as one event - at 8:11 - and calculated that they happened over Highland. The search strategies and on the ground and air proceeded from there.

However, Edwards assesses that the bump actually occurred at 8:13, and that 305 had just crossed the Columbia.

Edwards spends many pages backing these assessments and dives very deeply into the 302s and WSHM archival material. He has even determined that six different individuals were recording times and locations on the transcripts, and determined that Individual "F" is the most accurate and thus, he uses his calculations.

I think you're gonna love Edwards' book. You may disagree with his conclusions, but his leg work is outstanding. There is no one who has a more complete presentation of the documentation from Norjak. Not me, nor GG - not by a long shot.

Bruce, congratulations on your overcoming the pain of not being referenced or mentioned in Dr. Edwards's book (according to your own statement).  Your last sentence above indicates that you are a true gentleman.

You must have some good contacts in the US Post Office to get your complimentary copy so early.  According to the USPS tracking, my copy was still in Atglen, PA yesterday afternoon.  And I eagerly look forward to getting it.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on November 17, 2021, 05:51:19 PM
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How does Edwards put the plane over Portland at 8:13? This goes against the FBI map, however he's using the FBI map for location? What's his reasoning?

My understanding of Edwards' research is that he figures the oscillations preceded the pressure bump because they were a reflection of Cooper walking down the stairs. He assesses that the FBI and NWO linked the oscillations and bump as one event - at 8:11 - and calculated that they happened over Highland. The search strategies and on the ground and air proceeded from there.

However, Edwards assesses that the bump actually occurred at 8:13, and that 305 had just crossed the Columbia.

Edwards spends many pages backing these assessments and dives very deeply into the 302s and WSHM archival material. He has even determined that six different individuals were recording times and locations on the transcripts, and determined that Individual "F" is the most accurate and thus, he uses his calculations.

I think you're gonna love Edwards' book. You may disagree with his conclusions, but his leg work is outstanding. There is no one who has a more complete presentation of the documentation from Norjak. Not me, nor GG - not by a long shot.

Again, he is using the FBI flight path map locations but completely different time stamps, and you can't even give me a hint?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 17, 2021, 06:02:42 PM
Look, Marty, I may have read the book but that doesn't mean I understood or retained much of the details. Remember, I was medicated much of the time due to minutiae overload.

When the USPS gets unplugged in Atglen, you'll see what I mean.

Edwards has not only read all of the 302s, he has absorbed them into his psyche. As a result, he has  profound depth of knowledge regarding the Norjak investigation, and from that place he assigns differing weights of validity to information or FBI conclusions.

One other tidbit on Edwards' book. He generally writes in the present tense, and often uses the future conditional tense, such as: "Tina goes to the cockpit and the skyjacker will be descending the aftstairs in 22 minutes." I found that jarring. Let me know what you think of that, please. To me, it gave a sense of an altered state of reality to the skyjacking.

When you get your copy, you can maybe explain to me much of what I read. Particularly what you agree with and what you don't.

Lastly, I'll bring my copy to the conference this week, so you can read it then.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 17, 2021, 06:11:30 PM
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Bruce, congratulations on your overcoming the pain of not being referenced or mentioned in Dr. Edwards's book (according to your own statement).  Your last sentence above indicates that you are a true gentleman.


Thanks, Marty.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: andrade1812 on November 17, 2021, 06:46:27 PM
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Bruce, congratulations on your overcoming the pain of not being referenced or mentioned in Dr. Edwards's book (according to your own statement).  Your last sentence above indicates that you are a true gentleman.


Thanks, Marty.

That was Robert. 😉
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on November 17, 2021, 07:06:39 PM
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Look, Marty, I may have read the book but that doesn't mean I understood or retained much of the details. Remember, I was medicated much of the time due to minutiae overload.

When the USPS gets unplugged in Atglen, you'll see what I mean.

Edwards has not only read all of the 302s, he has absorbed them into his psyche. As a result, he has  profound depth of knowledge regarding the Norjak investigation, and from that place he assigns differing weights of validity to information or FBI conclusions.

One other tidbit on Edwards' book. He generally writes in the present tense, and often uses the future conditional tense, such as: "Tina goes to the cockpit and the skyjacker will be descending the aftstairs in 22 minutes." I found that jarring. Let me know what you think of that, please. To me, it gave a sense of an altered state of reality to the skyjacking.

When you get your copy, you can maybe explain to me much of what I read. Particularly what you agree with and what you don't.

Lastly, I'll bring my copy to the conference this week, so you can read it then.

Bruce, Dr. Edwards has definitely impressed you.  Just hang in there and absorb everything he has written. :)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 17, 2021, 10:59:21 PM
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Edwards has not only read all of the 302s, he has absorbed them into his psyche. As a result, he has  profound depth of knowledge regarding the Norjak investigation, and from that place he assigns differing weights of validity to information or FBI conclusions.


Heh, triumph of the nerds. Sure sign of the end.

This is the end
Beautiful friend
This is the end
My only friend, the end

Of our elaborate plans, the end
Of everything that stands, the end
No safety or surprise, the end
I'll never look into your eyes again

Can you picture what will be?
So limitless and free
Desperately in need
Of some stranger's hand
In a desperate land

Lost in a Roman wilderness of pain
And all the children are insane
All the children are insane
Waiting for the summer rain, yeah
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 18, 2021, 02:19:22 AM
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Bruce, congratulations on your overcoming the pain of not being referenced or mentioned in Dr. Edwards's book (according to your own statement).  Your last sentence above indicates that you are a true gentleman.


Thank you, Robert; and thanks to you, Marty, for helping clarify who the hell I'm talking to!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 25, 2021, 12:36:09 AM
So, I just finished reading Dr. Edward's book, and I thought I'd share my immediate thoughts on it. I am sure there will be much more to discuss later on.

First, the book is a masterpiece. If Bruce Smith's book is the "bible" of DB Cooper, then Dr. Edward's book is the writings of St. Augustine or Martin Luther. It strips away all personal narratives, suspect discussion, and conspiracy theories and creates an exhaustively researched book on the facts and data points of the DB Cooper case. It is unlike any book on Cooper. I am in academia, so I enjoyed the dense and evidence-based nature of the book. While some of the math in the book caused my eyes to glaze over, the rest of the book was a fascinating, unbiased recitation of the truths of DB Cooper.

That said, this book is not without hypotheses of its own. These conclusions will likely not sit well with a large number of occupants within the Vortex. I hope Dr. Edwards is prepared to vociferously defend his book because there are people who will view it as a frontal attack on the theories and ideas that they desperately cling to. I know this because I share many of Dr. Edward's theories and have shared them within the Vortex. I myself have been roundly criticized by some for these iconoclastic ideas. Truth is, this book I would have written about DB Cooper if I was capable of doing so. Bravo to Dr. Edwards for actually doing it.

For example, I have stated that I believe the "oscillations" and "pressure bump" are two different, but related things, and that the FBI along with many private researchers have confused and conflated these terms for decades. Dr. Edwards agrees. Dr. Edwards believes that the jump time is wrong and as a result, the drop zone was too far north. I storngly agree. Dr. Edwards believes that the timing of the flight path is off by four or five minutes. I hypothesized this same thing, and emailed Shutter about this idea earlier in the year. Unfortunately, I was unable to make it work. Dr. Edwards does, and he provides compelling evidence to support his assertion. I wish I had spoken to Dr. Edwards prior to the publication of his book because we are very like-minded in regards to DB Cooper. The difference is that Dr. Edwards has put in the time and effort to back up his conclusions with evidence directly from the FBI files along with science and mathematics.

As with any publication, it is not without its flaws and holes. For one, I think that Dr. Edwards could have provided a better explanation for contradicting the times associated with the plots on the FBI map. I also think his suggestion that the airstairs were locked in a down position is incorrect, and his hypothesis that Cooper raised and lowered the stairs manually rather than them "floating" is also lacking in convincing evidence. Also, despite citing Tom Kaye extensively, Dr. Edwards' scenarios for the jump result in Cooper ending up in the Columbia that night - something that the diatom research makes highly improbable.

There are other smaller errors such as confusing Minneapolis and Minnesota - something that could be easily explained by him not being a native of the United States.

There is also a rather MASSIVE blockbuster revelation that I believe requires further explanation from all parties involved. In his discussion of the tie particles, Dr. Edwards states:

"The Citizen Sleuths website describes the source as titanium metal; however, our communications with Mr. Kaye indicate that the particles were titanium oxide, a widely used component of food coloring, paints and pigments, and sunscreen."

"Titanium, which at one time suggested an exposure of the tie to an environment within the aerospace industry, eventually appeared to be no more than a marker for, most probably, paints and pigments."


Does this mean that Tom Kaye had now disregarded the commercially pure titanium? Is that entire line of inquiry now DOA? Inquiring minds want to know.

So, the bottom line is that this is a marvelous book that everyone interested in DB Cooper should read. Dr. Edwards should be very proud of himself while also girding himself for the slings and arrows that come with challenging many of the long-held beliefs of the Vortex.

Well done, and good luck.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 01:30:36 AM
Titanium dioxide was excluded by looking at the oxygen in it's spectra

Titanium dioxide, also known as titanium oxide is the inorganic compound with the chemical formula TiO2.

with regards to excluding it:
https://citizensleuths.com/titaniumparticles.html


Sticky carbon tape on stubs were used to lift samples from the tie (Fig. 2) and Fig. 2 Circles represent sample sites where sticky tape was used.were examined under the scanning electron microscope (SEM). Several metallic particles were discovered and submitted to energy dispersive x-ray spectroscopy (EDS) which gives information about all the elements present in the particle down to approximately 1% abundance (Fig. 1).

Titanium dioxide is a common relative of titanium metal but under EDS, titanium dioxide shows an abundance of oxygen where the metal does not. High-resolution spectra were recorded for the particles that showed either no oxygen or orders of magnitude less than expected. Additional confirmation was done through sampling known titanium dioxide standards in the same instruments and comparing them to the particle spectra.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 01:32:11 AM
Is there any new information in the Edwards' book?

Or is just re-jiggering existing information (tossing out some as wrong/misinterpreted, etc...deciding some are more likely "fact" than others that are deemed to be "non-fact")

i.e. is there any "new evidence" or ?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 01:38:47 AM

"Titanium, which at one time suggested an exposure of the tie to an environment within the aerospace industry, eventually appeared to be no more than a marker for, most probably, paints and pigments."

Is he talking about titanium dioxide here? what is he talking about and where is the reference for such info?
If it's from Tom Kaye, where is it on Tom's site?

Edwards sounds way off base here. Even the wording of the sentence is misleading. "eventually appeared" ??

Is he trying to reduce Tom's work to a sound bite? Was there new work? What the heck is he saying

I think he's trying to act like he has new info when he seems to have misunderstood something.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 25, 2021, 01:39:52 AM
Regarding the titanium, Edwards claims TK has changed his mind. I’d definitely encourage Edwards and Tom to clear this up.

As far as “new evidence”, it’s hard to say. There’s no smoking gun, but it is as fresh a look at the case that there is.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 01:42:14 AM
Edwards is creating his own confusion.
He's mixed up about the Ti and this:

Edwards is talking about the Lycopodium powder and titanium dioxide.

From Tom's site:
Many Lycopodium spores appeared to be covered with an residue of small round particles that are a common feature of the surface texture in Impatiens pollen (Fig. 3). Once their identification as Lycopodium was determined, the ornamentation was out of place, and subsequent EDS analysis showed that the ornamentation was in fact a powder residue made up of titanium dioxide, silicates and alumina. These materials are typically used for pill coatings [2]. This powder suggests that Cooper would have probably been taking some form of pill on a regular basis.

from https://citizensleuths.com/pollen.html
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 01:44:15 AM
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Regarding the titanium, Edwards claims TK has changed his mind. I’d definitely encourage Edwards and Tom to clear this up.

As far as “new evidence”, it’s hard to say. There’s no smoking gun, but it is as fresh a look at the case that there is.

Why does Edwards have to interpret Tom's mind? Tom owes Edwards nothing.
Edwards' is the one who is the random ranter re-writing Tom's writing.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 01:47:20 AM
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Regarding the titanium, Edwards claims TK has changed his mind. I’d definitely encourage Edwards and Tom to clear this up.

As far as “new evidence”, it’s hard to say. There’s no smoking gun, but it is as fresh a look at the case that there is.

It's just a biased look that says certain stuff has more weight than other stuff. Just like everyone's opinion.

He doesn't seem to have done anything that guarantees his weighting is more valid than another reasonable weighting?

I can't get past the relatively simple jump to "Korean War loadmaster" ....seems like he has a small view of the world and the humans in it.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 25, 2021, 01:47:52 AM
He says that he spoke with Tom and that’s what Tom imparted to him. I agree that this is a major thing that gets short shrift in the book and needs explaining.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 25, 2021, 01:48:38 AM
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Regarding the titanium, Edwards claims TK has changed his mind. I’d definitely encourage Edwards and Tom to clear this up.

As far as “new evidence”, it’s hard to say. There’s no smoking gun, but it is as fresh a look at the case that there is.

It's just a biased look that says certain stuff has more weight than other stuff. Just like everyone's opinion.

He doesn't seem to have done anything that guarantees his weighting is more valid than another reasonable weighting?

I can't get past the relatively simple jump to "Korean War loadmaster" ....seems like he has a small view of the world and the humans in it.
All I can say is that you should read the book before judging it.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 01:48:53 AM
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He says that he spoke with Tom and that’s what Tom imparted to him. I agree that this is a major thing that gets short shrift in the book and needs explaining.

If it was major...Tom was at the forum this year.
What did Tom say about his "changed mind" at the forum regarding Ti?
Surely something this monumental would have come from the guy who did the work?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 01:50:16 AM
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All I can say is that you should read the book before judging it.
??

Why would I buy the book ? I can judge it any way I want. You can ignore anything I say. That's how it works. Free will..etc.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 25, 2021, 01:50:45 AM
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He says that he spoke with Tom and that’s what Tom imparted to him. I agree that this is a major thing that gets short shrift in the book and needs explaining.

If it was major...Tom was at the forum this year.
What did Tom say about his "changed mind" at the forum regarding Ti?
Surely something this monumental would have come from the guy who did the work?
I agree. That’s why I mentioned it specifically.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 25, 2021, 01:51:06 AM
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All I can say is that you should read the book before judging it.
??

Why would I buy the book ? I can judge it any way I want. You can ignore anything I say. That's how it works. Free will..etc.
Lol ok
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 01:53:18 AM
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All I can say is that you should read the book before judging it.
??

Why would I buy the book ? I can judge it any way I want. You can ignore anything I say. That's how it works. Free will..etc.
Lol ok


no really. You guys are suckered in by the PhD and the writing style and him saying what you want to hear (that everyone is reading/interpreting English documents wrong)

That's comforting.

It's more discomforting to say "Read all the damn docs you want, and you still won't get close to who Cooper was"

Sure you can write a book about the docs, but that doesn't mean you're writing about Cooper.
This ain't a math theorem.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on November 25, 2021, 02:55:51 PM
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All I can say is that you should read the book before judging it.
??

Why would I buy the book ? I can judge it any way I want. You can ignore anything I say. That's how it works. Free will..etc.
Lol ok

Chaucer, you have lived up to your academia calling and standards and done us a service with your post on Dr. Edwards' book.  Bruce Smith, who is probably the most prolific serious Cooper writer to date, has also praised the book.

My complimentary copy of the book and a second copy I ordered through Amazon only arrived this week.  And with other pressing matters at hand, I will probably need at least another week or maybe two to read it in detail.  But from all indications so far the description of the book as a "masterpiece" appears to be completely correct.

So a great book from Dr. Edwards and a great evaluation from Dr. Chaucer.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 03:25:05 PM
 man, what's with all the ass kissing?
"a great book" ?

why is it a great book?
It's like everyone's turned into a Kim Kardashian instagram "I did it for the likes" influencer.

Cooper would choke on his bourbon.

-Dr. Snowmman
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 25, 2021, 03:28:01 PM
Best chuckle of the day, so far, Dr. Snow.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Kermit on November 25, 2021, 04:00:33 PM
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All I can say is that you should read the book before judging it.
??

Why would I buy the book ? I can judge it any way I want. You can ignore anything I say. That's how it works. Free will..etc.
Lol ok

Chaucer, you have lived up to your academia calling and standards and done us a service with your post on Dr. Edwards' book.  Bruce Smith, who is probably the most prolific serious Cooper writer to date, has also praised the book.

My complimentary copy of the book and a second copy I ordered through Amazon only arrived this week.  And with other pressing matters at hand, I will probably need at least another week or maybe two to read it in detail.  But from all indications so far the description of the book as a "masterpiece" appears to be completely correct.

So a great book from Dr. Edwards and a great evaluation from Dr. Chaucer.
I received my complementary copy a few days ago also ! I also have been very busy with guests coming over for Thanksgiving. However I have scanned through the book and it’s a beautiful designed book as Darren mentioned on his Podcast! I’ll give my honest evaluation after I have fully read every page and digested it’s entire content!
Have a great Thanksgiving everyone!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 04:04:06 PM
oh, I get it now.

It's like all the reviews you see on Amazon, where someone got something for free.
It's like everyone got complimentary copies?
Now I understand why it's a great book...:)
And why apparently it's difficult to write a description of what makes it "great"

So far, I've just heard that it has wrong information, apparently.  (restating Tom's Ti work, with no confirmation or okay from Tom?)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 25, 2021, 05:01:58 PM
It’s a great book because I read it and judged it to be so.

Free will, remember, snowman?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 05:19:14 PM
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It’s a great book because I read it and judged it to be so.

Free will, remember, snowman?

Excellent! truth will out!
The bible is a great book too! I read it and ...someone else told me so.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on November 25, 2021, 05:34:22 PM
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...his suggestion that the airstairs were locked in a down position...

Aside from the usual bickering...

I'm curious - If he thinks the stairs were locked down, then what does he think caused the pressure bump?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 25, 2021, 05:36:58 PM
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...his suggestion that the airstairs were locked in a down position...

Aside from the usual bickering...

I'm curious - If he thinks the stairs were locked down, then what does he think caused the pressure bump?
In an attempt to re-rail the thread, perhaps Darren should have the Doc on again to address some of his claims.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on November 25, 2021, 06:22:33 PM
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oh, I get it now.

It's like all the reviews you see on Amazon, where someone got something for free.
It's like everyone got complimentary copies?
Now I understand why it's a great book...:)
And why apparently it's difficult to write a description of what makes it "great"

So far, I've just heard that it has wrong information, apparently.  (restating Tom's Ti work, with no confirmation or okay from Tom?)

The reviews on Amazon almost always include the phrase "Verified Purchase" at the top of the review.  Translating from the Greek, this means that the reviewer purchased the book being reviewed.

Snowmman, for unknown reasons terms like "ego problems", "sour grapes", etc., etc., come to mind when reading some of your recent posts.  Have you and Georger actually read or even seen the book?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on November 25, 2021, 06:48:46 PM
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...his suggestion that the airstairs were locked in a down position...

Aside from the usual bickering...

I'm curious - If he thinks the stairs were locked down, then what does he think caused the pressure bump?
In an attempt to re-rail the thread, perhaps Darren should have the Doc on again to address some of his claims.

Does he not address that in his book? What he thinks caused the pressure bump, if not the stairs rebounding?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 25, 2021, 06:59:56 PM
Maybe? I’ll have to take another listen, but my memory is that he was reluctant to discuss specific things like that.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on November 25, 2021, 07:18:49 PM
Not the podcast, in the book.

Not that big a deal, I'm just curious if he had a different idea about it.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 25, 2021, 07:25:28 PM
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Not the podcast, in the book.

Not that big a deal, I'm just curious if he had a different idea about it.
There were some ideas of his that I felt could have benefited from a more elaborate explanation. Other things were meticulously presented in detail.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on November 25, 2021, 07:32:20 PM
Like I said, not that big a deal, but I am curious so I'll try one more time...

In the review of Dr. Edwards' book that you posted on the previous page of this thread, you stated that he thinks that the stairs were in a locked down position. So, in the book, does he say what he thinks caused the pressure bump, if not the stairs rebounding?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 25, 2021, 07:51:26 PM
Ah, sorry. His premise is that the sled test was flawed, thus the pressure bump may not have meant what the FBI thought it did. Also, he questions whether or not the crew could have felt any pressure changes through a closed cabin door.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on November 25, 2021, 08:15:45 PM
Well that raises a couple interesting questions...  The crew claimed they felt the pressure bump in their ears. So what was that? That bump was supposedly replicated by the sled test. But I believe I read that the cockpit door was open for that. So a question would be whether the bulkhead doors, especially the cockpit door, was pressure sealed. I could see where it might be, so that if the rest of the cabin lost pressure at altitude, then the cockpit might remain pressurized so that the pilots would stay conscious to fly to a lower altitude. If that's the case, then how would they feel anything pressure related in their ears? Robert99?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on November 25, 2021, 08:37:25 PM
The door to the cockpit is not sealed. I think it was the McCoy hijacking they were looking under the door for the hijacker.

The bulkhead door is sealed, the stairwell is not. they knew when the bulkhead door was opened and the stairs lowered. Rataczak explains this in the HBO documentary.

The plane was sealed until the bulkhead door and stairs were opened. you would surely hear and feel anything out of order. the gauges are sensitive and reacted to the changes.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 08:38:58 PM
I have some breathtaking announcements on this case.
They will be presented in the metaverse, as there are too detailed to be presented any other way.
Once the metaverse is fully built out, it will be obvious what's true or false.
I can't wait.

-Dr. Dr. Snowmman
(in the metaverse, you can get sequential Dr. prefixes. It connotates metaverse validation. The max sequential is 6.)
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on November 25, 2021, 08:43:49 PM
Well then I guess the question would be - If you pull off the hijacking in the metaverse, do you get to keep the money? Does Dr. Zuck have to give it to you?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 25, 2021, 09:32:09 PM
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Well then I guess the question would be - If you pull off the hijacking in the metaverse, do you get to keep the money? Does Dr. Zuck have to give it to you?

Zuck pays one click at a time, just like every one else.

Hey, magically Bruce's book seems to come up close to the top at Amazon if you search for "db cooper book" now
Sure there's Edwards' book with a "Sponsored" paid ad (who the heck would pay Amazon money to push their DB book? Man, that's signs of a personality defect for sure!)

And then Bruce is below the "Editor's pick" of "Unsolved Case Files: Escape at 10,000 feet" which is a book targeted at 8-12 years old

BUT: other than that, he's just one below Geoffrey Gray's book "Skyjack" which had heavy promotion (NYT bestseller remember! You really have to kiss New York publisher ass to get NYT bestseller list...not saying there's anything wrong with that!)

Geez: just one below all that. You know FER SURE! that means it's a "great book" And Bruce paid nothing (unlike Edwards')
Sure Bruce spent years trudging around listening to bullshit stories from every Tom, Dick and Harry with something to rant about..but that doesn't mean squat!

Even poor Martin Andrade's book from 2016 is trailing Bruce's NEW RELEASE!

The metaverse is your friend. Embrace it. Leave your mind behind.

see here:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=db+cooper+book

I was in tears, crying in my beer, when I saw all of them had to share a search page with Blevins' "Into the Blast".. ...This must not stand!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on November 25, 2021, 10:12:23 PM
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Well that raises a couple interesting questions...  The crew claimed they felt the pressure bump in their ears. So what was that? That bump was supposedly replicated by the sled test. But I believe I read that the cockpit door was open for that. So a question would be whether the bulkhead doors, especially the cockpit door, was pressure sealed. I could see where it might be, so that if the rest of the cabin lost pressure at altitude, then the cockpit might remain pressurized so that the pilots would stay conscious to fly to a lower altitude. If that's the case, then how would they feel anything pressure related in their ears? Robert99?

Both the cockpit and cabin would be unpressurized when the aft bulkhead door was open even slightly.  So both the cabin and cockpit would be essentially at the ambient 10,000 foot pressure which was about 70 percent of sea-level standard pressure.  I'm not sure exactly what effect the aft stairs slamming back into the fuselage would have on the cockpit pressure or any way to determine it.  But I will take the crew's word for what they experienced and saw on their instrumentation.

377 has previously posted of his experience in jumping from the aft stairs of a DC-9 which had the stairs removed so that the jumper basically took a dive through the opening from slightly up in the fuselage.  If I remember correctly, 377 said that he could tell when a jumper went out by a change in the cabin noise level without looking at the jumper.  Perhaps he can elaborate on this noise and any pressure changes he felt.

Another factor in the flight crew's experience was that they had been told that Cooper would probably blow up the plane when he jumped.  So if they heard a large bang from the rear of the aircraft they might do some jumping themselves to add to what they were already experiencing.

In my personal opinion, the oscillations were made by Cooper as he was throwing things out and needing to get the stairs down slightly to do that.  And that the pressure changes or bumps were caused by the stairs slamming back up into the fuselage.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on November 25, 2021, 11:43:12 PM
The question is or should be:  how accurately did the sled test mirror flight 305. Two differences. One, the sled test was at 7000 and Flight 305 was at 10K. Another, in the sled test, the cabin door was open. For Flight 305, it was shut.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on November 25, 2021, 11:52:58 PM
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Well that raises a couple interesting questions...  The crew claimed they felt the pressure bump in their ears. So what was that? That bump was supposedly replicated by the sled test. But I believe I read that the cockpit door was open for that. So a question would be whether the bulkhead doors, especially the cockpit door, was pressure sealed. I could see where it might be, so that if the rest of the cabin lost pressure at altitude, then the cockpit might remain pressurized so that the pilots would stay conscious to fly to a lower altitude. If that's the case, then how would they feel anything pressure related in their ears? Robert99?

Both the cockpit and cabin would be unpressurized when the aft bulkhead door was open even slightly.  So both the cabin and cockpit would be essentially at the ambient 10,000 foot pressure which was about 70 percent of sea-level standard pressure.  I'm not sure exactly what effect the aft stairs slamming back into the fuselage would have on the cockpit pressure or any way to determine it.  But I will take the crew's word for what they experienced and saw on their instrumentation.

377 has previously posted of his experience in jumping from the aft stairs of a DC-9 which had the stairs removed so that the jumper basically took a dive through the opening from slightly up in the fuselage.  If I remember correctly, 377 said that he could tell when a jumper went out by a change in the cabin noise level without looking at the jumper.  Perhaps he can elaborate on this noise and any pressure changes he felt.

Another factor in the flight crew's experience was that they had been told that Cooper would probably blow up the plane when he jumped.  So if they heard a large bang from the rear of the aircraft they might do some jumping themselves to add to what they were already experiencing.

In my personal opinion, the oscillations were made by Cooper as he was throwing things out and needing to get the stairs down slightly to do that.  And that the pressure changes or bumps were caused by the stairs slamming back up into the fuselage.

Thank you for the answer. I'm familiar with the sound, that happens in pretty much any jump plane, you can hear the wind flow changes as people exit. But since it doesn't come anywhere near 'sealing' the whole of the door, it doesn't really create any noticeable pressure effect. That the cockpit door is not pressure sealed from the rest of the cabin is kind of the operative issue here. The crew reported the 'pressure bump', and that was replicated in the sled tests, so that would pretty much have to be a result of the door rebounding from Coop's jump. The original question was about Edwards' claim that the stairs were locked down, which would prevent them from rebounding. So if that was the case, what else could possibly cause the pressure bump? Not clear if he has an answer for that.

As for your 3rd paragraph - What's that old crude joke ending in " 'So did you jump?'  'A little, at first.' "  hehe
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on November 26, 2021, 12:37:32 AM
It's pretty obvious the stairs were not locked down. someone from the crew would have to go in the back to raise them before they landed.

I don't believe the stairs slammed shut either, it was a smooth lift upward enough to cause pressure to get back into the cabin.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 26, 2021, 12:38:41 AM
interesting that air density has a wind load effect that's measurable, even for the variation in tall buildings.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/349535929_Dependence_of_wind_load_on_air_density_for_highrise_buildings

Accurate determination of wind load is of great importance for the wind-resistant design of building structures. Despite the fact that air density varies systematically with altitude, and somewhat less so with barometric pressure, air temperature, and latitude, there is a lack of studies on the dependence of wind load on air density especially for highrise buildings. This article presents a special study on this topic. The dependence of air density on latitude, season and altitude is investigated first, based on meteorological records at several national stations in China. The height-dependence of air density in the inner region of a tropical cyclone (TC) is highlighted, since there is a fast development of highrise buildings in TC-prone areas and TC wind load dominates the design wind loads for such slender wind-sensitive structures. A data-driven model for the height-dependence of TC air density is established. It is shown that the measured TC air density is reduced by 8%–10% compared with the values recommended in the wind load codes. The dependence of wind load and wind-induced structural response on air density for a supertall building is then analyzed through a combined usage of the proposed TC air density model and wind tunnel testing. Results suggest that the wind load and wind-induced response of the building obtained by considering the height-dependence of air density can be decreased by as much as ~12% compared with those without considering such effects. Thus, more economic wind-resistant designs for highrise buildings may be achieved by taking into account the height-dependence of air density.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on November 26, 2021, 12:51:16 AM
Mean roof height is always used to determine wind loads..different parts of a building react different. corners are "end zone" conditions where winds can double causing anchor spacing to increase. a window in the center of a building could have attachment spacing of 6" on center. the same window on a corner will call for 3" inch on center.

Most things are over engineered. impact windows will fail with the glass blowing out vs the whole window.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 26, 2021, 12:59:56 AM
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Mean roof height is always used to determine wind loads..different parts of a building react different. corners are "end zone" conditions where winds can double causing anchor spacing to increase. a window in the center of a building could have attachment spacing of 6" on center. the same window on a corner will call for 3" inch on center.

Most things are over engineered. impact windows will fail with the glass blowing out vs the whole window.

agree with all that
Yet:
People want to argue that a single sled test, is sufficient for determining what happened when Cooper jumped or didn't jump.

The sled test represented something close to what happened with Cooper. But to say there's enough data to say it was the exact same thing? Nope.

Variation exists. Saying you know the extent of variation is silly without tests that cover the variations.

I suggested variation when the plane is turning. Sure you can laugh at that, but it seems like a thing to me.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on November 26, 2021, 01:28:04 AM
It's always open to debate. they did have the guy who reported what happened during the hijacking on the plane recreating what happened. he appears to have agreed they recreated the same issues heard and felt that evening. putting them together seems to be the hurdle nobody has gotten over to date.

Might not be a factor of data vs eyewitness account?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 26, 2021, 02:33:30 AM
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It's always open to debate. they did have the guy who reported what happened during the hijacking on the plane recreating what happened. he appears to have agreed they recreated the same issues heard and felt that evening. putting them together seems to be the hurdle nobody has gotten over to date.

Might not be a factor of data vs eyewitness account?

Good point.
Yet, people will claim they "know" based on I don't know what.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on November 26, 2021, 03:25:21 AM
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I was in tears, crying in my beer, when I saw all of them had to share a search page with Blevins' "Into the Blast".. ...This must not stand!


Dealing with Blevins is like dealing with unvaxxed family members at Thanksgiving. Ya learn to live with them and stay at the other end of the house.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 377 on November 26, 2021, 09:43:14 PM
Dudeman is right in that you can hear jumpers exiting from most jumpships but the phenomena on the DC 9 was substantially different. It caught my attention immediately. It was a THUNK, felt in my stomach and heard by my ears. Seemed to be of a lower frequency and higher energy than the noise you hear from a side exit in e.g. a Twin Otter or Cessna Caravan.

377
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: dudeman17 on November 27, 2021, 01:11:00 AM
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It's pretty obvious the stairs were not locked down. someone from the crew would have to go in the back to raise them before they landed.

I don't believe the stairs slammed shut either, it was a smooth lift upward enough to cause pressure to get back into the cabin.

I agree with that. I'm not saying I believe Edwards when he says they were locked down, I'm just curious how he fleshes that out. He is reportedly very detailed, so if he has the stairs being locked down, then he would have to account for the pressure bump and, as you say, the landing. Supposedly he also says that he doesn't think that the crew would feel a pressure bump through a closed door. But they did in fact report it, so I dunno why he would even question that. Does he think they're lying?

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Dudeman is right in that you can hear jumpers exiting from most jumpships but the phenomena on the DC 9 was substantially different. It caught my attention immediately. It was a THUNK, felt in my stomach and heard by my ears. Seemed to be of a lower frequency and higher energy than the noise you hear from a side exit in e.g. a Twin Otter or Cessna Caravan.

377

Possibly in part due to the much higher airspeed? Also, possibly a somewhat different dynamic being a rear exit, as opposed to a side door, and a much smaller door than say a skyvan or other tailgate exit more commonly used by jumpers. Did you feel a pressure effect in your ears?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Shutter on November 27, 2021, 11:28:22 AM
The wind load will prevent the locking of the stairs. the crew mentions the lights that show they were not locked. the tower seen the plane come in with the stairs partially down. I'm not sure how he comes to that conclusion..

I believe the jumps are different in the DC-9. the stairs were removed and they had a running jump out of the plane. a body takes up a lot of the opening vs a small parachute being tossed. it's apples and oranges IMO.

Pressure will seek out any crack, hole or opening. the plane was sealed until the breach of the stairs. the pressure will get to the cockpit easily since the door is not sealed. I'm guessing all around the frame of the door and space at the bottom to the floor that will allow pressure to enter.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 29, 2021, 03:31:13 PM
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oh, I get it now.

It's like all the reviews you see on Amazon, where someone got something for free.
It's like everyone got complimentary copies?
Now I understand why it's a great book...:)
And why apparently it's difficult to write a description of what makes it "great"

So far, I've just heard that it has wrong information, apparently.  (restating Tom's Ti work, with no confirmation or okay from Tom?)

The reviews on Amazon almost always include the phrase "Verified Purchase" at the top of the review.  Translating from the Greek, this means that the reviewer purchased the book being reviewed.

Snowmman, for unknown reasons terms like "ego problems", "sour grapes", etc., etc., come to mind when reading some of your recent posts.  Have you and Georger actually read or even seen the book?

I pondered this post.
Ran it thru the allusion AI, in English, Greek and Romanian.
Travelled to Moldova and asked the street-food vendors for their take on it.
Posted on Instagram and Tiktok. Nothing.

Basically all gave the same answer "What grapes were had?, sour or otherwise?"

Did someone get grapes? What grapes were gotten and in what form?

I'll cop to the claim of "ego", but unclear how that's a bad thing or how it applies to the proposed grapes.
Is said "ego" blinding me from the "grapes" in plain view?

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: snowmman on November 29, 2021, 06:55:03 PM
Another rush of a scene from the "Cooper Vortex" movie in production, staring me, Tina, Bruce and Duval.

Here's me
https://clip.cafe/apocalypse-now-1979/i-knew-the-risks/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on December 11, 2021, 12:41:04 AM
New episode out now! DB Cooper was Better Off Dead Than Poor with Lisa Story.

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-better-off-dead-than-poor-lisa-story/

Enjoy!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on December 17, 2021, 07:18:43 PM
New episode out now.

DB Cooper never confessed to the crime with Tessa D’Amico.

Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-never-confessed-to-the-crime-tessa-d-amico/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on February 24, 2022, 08:46:19 PM
New episode out now! DB Cooper was not a lizard by Alan R Warren. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-not-a-lizard-alan-r-warren/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on March 07, 2022, 10:10:53 PM
New episode out right now! This one has Kyle Kesterson interviewing Darren.

Enjoy!

https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-xq6f8-11c6be4
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 13, 2022, 12:25:36 AM
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New episode out right now! This one has Kyle Kesterson interviewing Darren.

Enjoy!

https://www.podbean.com/ew/pb-xq6f8-11c6be4

Delightful. I loved it absolutely.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on March 13, 2022, 12:29:04 AM
What's your opinion, Darren, in interviewing the Hollywood people and Tina about their movie? Joey McFarland, Dawn Birschwal, and the elusive one could make a great podcast.

Maybe another combo job with Galen and Alice Hancock? Alice has talked with Galen with some frequency and substance.

How about Josh Gates giving an overview of all the Cooper Characters he's dealt with in the past five years....
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 06, 2022, 04:35:26 AM
Where do we go for your new podcast, Book of Darren?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on April 06, 2022, 12:49:42 PM
https://thebookofdarren.podbean.com/

Stay tuned for a woo-woo episode with Bruce!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on April 06, 2022, 07:24:09 PM
I can't wait to hear what I said in public!

Smile.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: JAG on May 14, 2022, 12:19:18 AM
Hey Darren, really enjoy your podcasts, I know you are winding it down and moving on to The Book of Darren.  But-- have you ever considered getting a DNA expert on to discuss the Cooper case?  Thanks !
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: haggarknew on May 15, 2022, 01:59:31 AM
    How about Georger?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: georger on May 15, 2022, 02:31:18 PM
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    How about Georger?

Only the FBI can explain what they have and the significance of it - Georger tried and failed to set the stage for this years ago.

The problem for the Cooper case now is a total lack of credibility ... on all fronts. Gridlock of competing interests!

Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on June 05, 2022, 07:14:58 PM
Latest episode is out now! DB Cooper Was a Case I Wanted to Solve with Larry Carr. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-a-case-i-wanted-to-solve-larry-carr/
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Parrotheadvol on June 05, 2022, 09:47:43 PM
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Latest episode is out now! DB Cooper Was a Case I Wanted to Solve with Larry Carr. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-a-case-i-wanted-to-solve-larry-carr/

Perfect timing! I was just trying to figure out what I was going to listen to on my drive to the hills of Kentucky tomorrow!!!
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: JAG on June 06, 2022, 06:59:12 AM
Disclaimer, if you haven't listened yet, don't read below as I don't want to ruin for anyone that wants to listen on their own first.

Good interview, highly anticipated.  I have to say though, that I was slightly underwhelmed and maybe even a little disappointed in his answers and lack of any real new insight.  I think I was expecting too much.  He didn't really seem to have payed much attention to some of the topics and analysis discussed by this community, i.e. new parachute information by FJ, dismissed the tie particles as having any potential value.  I guess I thought he would have been more of a Cooper nerd, up to date and current on the latest discussions.  The DNA comments were more or less the same sort of position, seemed like his first comments on the DNA at beginning of interview were that it was important and valuable to case but then seemed to diminish it as having any real potential later in the interview.....I don't know, I need to listen again.

I did like that he came out very definitive on the McCoy topic.  Also same for Reca and the Cle Elum.   Darren mentioned Rackstraw, Carr seemed to glance over it but take away for me was that he was in the same category as other suspects i.e. not credible.

I am going to listen again...thanks Darren.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: TechnicalTim on June 06, 2022, 01:02:30 PM
Great podcast as always, thanks Darren.
 Surprised that Larry subscribes to the no-pull theory though, especially with the lack of evidence and statistical unlikelyhood.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Chaucer on June 06, 2022, 06:28:57 PM
Just finished listening to the Carr interview. Darren does an excellent job because he asks direct questions and lets the person being interviewed speak. He doesn't talk over them or constantly interject.

That's what he does with Carr. He asks simply, direct questions and then let's Carr have the mike.

There was nothing too revealing about the case, but it is enough content to get the Vortex talking. I did find it interesting that Carr admitting to not reading all the 302s when myself and many others have read every word.

It's also clear that Carr has not kept up on the developments in the case over the last 10 - 12 years. He has a casual knowledge of the diatom stuff, the tie particles, etc. I wonder how his opinions on the case would change if and when he learns some of the new details that have presented themselves since he was in charge of the case. For example, how would he square his claim of a Washougal washdown with TK's diatom findings that eliminate that as a possibility?

One thing that is heartening is that Carr is firmly in the FBI flight path camp, and says that the FBI continually researched the flight path over the years and re-interviewed the principal's involved in its development and found no reason to question it.

Also interesting - especially to someone like me who favors a more southerly jump spot - is Carr's claim that there is "some play" with the timing of the jump.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: 18C on June 09, 2022, 01:39:08 AM
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Latest episode is out now! DB Cooper Was a Case I Wanted to Solve with Larry Carr. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-a-case-i-wanted-to-solve-larry-carr/

Congratulations on the Larry Carr interview Darren. Great job. One of the most fascinating DBC related interviews I have had the pleasure of listening to.

Loved the part where Larry volunteered that he had sought immunity for Cooper, in the hope it might get him to come forward. Hardly surprised there was far less enthusiasm for it higher up.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Robert99 on June 09, 2022, 02:55:20 AM
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Just finished listening to the Carr interview. Darren does an excellent job because he asks direct questions and lets the person being interviewed speak. He doesn't talk over them or constantly interject.

That's what he does with Carr. He asks simply, direct questions and then let's Carr have the mike.

There was nothing too revealing about the case, but it is enough content to get the Vortex talking. I did find it interesting that Carr admitting to not reading all the 302s when myself and many others have read every word.

It's also clear that Carr has not kept up on the developments in the case over the last 10 - 12 years. He has a casual knowledge of the diatom stuff, the tie particles, etc. I wonder how his opinions on the case would change if and when he learns some of the new details that have presented themselves since he was in charge of the case. For example, how would he square his claim of a Washougal washdown with TK's diatom findings that eliminate that as a possibility?

One thing that is heartening is that Carr is firmly in the FBI flight path camp, and says that the FBI continually researched the flight path over the years and re-interviewed the principal's involved in its development and found no reason to question it.

Also interesting - especially to someone like me who favors a more southerly jump spot - is Carr's claim that there is "some play" with the timing of the jump.

As far as I can tell, no one has asked any member of the flight crew (or even Tina) this simple question.  Did you pass Portland on the east side, west side, or did you fly directly over Portland International Airport?
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Bruce A. Smith on June 10, 2022, 05:05:02 PM
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Latest episode is out now! DB Cooper Was a Case I Wanted to Solve with Larry Carr. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-was-a-case-i-wanted-to-solve-larry-carr/

Congratulations on the Larry Carr interview Darren. Great job. One of the most fascinating DBC related interviews I have had the pleasure of listening to.

Loved the part where Larry volunteered that he had sought immunity for Cooper, in the hope it might get him to come forward. Hardly surprised there was far less enthusiasm for it higher up.

I'd like to hear more about this. I was surprised that Larry characterized his offer as "going over like a lead balloon," since the Bureau was actively looking to make a deal with DBC in the 1970s and 1980s.
Title: Re: The Cooper Vortex Podcast
Post by: Darren on August 19, 2022, 08:53:36 PM
DB Cooper's Criminal Profile with Robert Fuller aka Jack on this site. Enjoy!

https://thecoopervortex.podbean.com/e/db-cooper-s-criminal-profile-robert-fuller/