Author Topic: Suspects And Confessions  (Read 715992 times)

Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5115 on: September 04, 2022, 03:10:51 PM »
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Here is a description of a poi.
How close do you think he is to Cooper.

Did he have the lower protruding lip that Cooper had, and can he be linked to the materials/elements found on the tie?

If the answer to either is "no", then I'd say he isn't the guy.
 
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Offline Jack

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5116 on: September 04, 2022, 05:08:46 PM »
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Here is a description of a poi.
How close do you think he is to Cooper.

Did he have the lower protruding lip that Cooper had, and can he be linked to the materials/elements found on the tie?

If the answer to either is "no", then I'd say he isn't the guy.

His lower lip protrudes as pointed out in my original post.
However, we have no idea to the extent of this description that was supposedly given by Tina, I believe it was.

As for the Tie.
If you use the particles on the tie as a sole reason for eliminating a possible poi, imo you are doing a disservice to this Cooper investigation.
This is because you have absolutely zero evidence that this was Cooper's personal use tie. You have nothing to tie it to Cooper's personal life. He could have gotten it from anywhere or anyone and there's a chance the tie on the plane wasn't even the one he was wearing. Nobody saw him take it off, nobody noticed he didn't have it on, and nobody saw him put it on the seat.
Could it be his, possibly. Should the particles be followed up as they have been, absolutely yes.
Could it lead to the real Cooper, yes it possibly could.

But if you eliminate all other possible poi's because of these particles, then it would be no different than the tunnel vision law enforcement gets when an innocent person is convicted of a crime they had no part in.

And if I am correct on my assessment of Cooper's personality trait, he would have been incapable of leaving his tie behind if it was his personal use for work tie.

Nothing would make me happier than for my assessment to be wrong and these particles do lead to the real Cooper and it can be definitively proven beyond any doubt.
But for that to happen, one of the smoking guns will have to emerge.

Jmo.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2022, 05:20:10 PM by Jack »
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5117 on: September 04, 2022, 06:33:31 PM »
Hey Jack,  didn't mean to dismiss your theory about connections to inanimate objects.  I was just pointing out that there may have been a practical reason he wanted them back also in addition to.  We all have things that we feel linked to, I am certainly that way with things that I hold onto.  WRT to the match book, who knows ? It's hard to draw conclusions on that from where I am sitting, but you could be 100% right, that is above my skill set.  But that's part of the profile, I get it...

Some thoughts on your points below:

He wasn't worried about the bourbon drink glass
- For all we know, he threw his glass out of the plane.  As far as I know, they didn't identify the glass he was using.

He wasn't worried about the cigarette butts
- Fair enough, he certainly left them and too bad they lost them.  But as it relates to finger prints, could they be lifted from butts ? Perhaps...I concede.

He wasn't worried about the tie
- I don't think that finger prints can be lifted from a tie.  Some people think he used the tie to wipe his finger prints off of anything he may of touched but this is entirely speculative.  In terms of whether he was emotionally connect to it or not I have no idea. But he did appear to leave it.

He wasn't worried about the time in the bathroom
- Do you mean wrt finger prints ?  We have reports of upwards of ~70+ finger prints collected by the FBI, there are stances on what the degree of confidence they have regarding any of them.  The palm print is one that we have heard a lot about....I don't really know what to think about them at this point.  I believe that retired SA Carr dismissed their value recently, for what that is worth.  But it isn't clear if they retrieved any from the bath room.

He wasn't worried about his seat area
- Same here again...maybe they got the palm print off of one of the seats ?

He wasn't worried about the parachute pack he opened to cut the cords
- I don't think this is related to the finger print issue.

He wasn't worried about the railings on the aft door he probably touched on the way out.
- Again, as far as I know, they didn't retrieve any meaningful finger prints from railings...

He wasn't worried about the plane ticket
- Some people don't even think that he touched that part of the ticket jacket.

He wasn't worried about the $20 bill he gave the counter for the ticket
- He knew that bill would be long gone and impossible to trace to him by the time the hijacking played out.

He wasn't worried about the $20 bill he gave for the drink
- Yeah, this one is a good point to a certain degree. But even if they found the bill, how easy would it be to pull or find his print on a circulated bill ?

My last thought is that just because he may have made mistakes leaving a finger print on one item, doesn't mean it wasn't one of the reasons he wanted another item returned.   

FJ also pointed out that there were hand written notes on the match book....perhaps that was another reason he wanted it back so that the writing couldn't be used as a link to him.

Boy, if you type too long on here, and your login expires you lost your post lol!!!
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5118 on: September 04, 2022, 08:50:40 PM »
Quote
Boy, if you type too long on here, and your login expires you lost your post

If you login using the option in the upper right corner of the the page it will log you out in about 15 minutes or something like that..use the option on the menu bar to log in, it will log you out in an hour or change the setting..

also, if you get timed out you can log back in and hit backspace, even after it tells you you are timed out or what ever it says just hit backspace again and the post you were working on will be there...
 
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Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5119 on: September 05, 2022, 05:35:48 PM »
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Here is a description of a poi.
How close do you think he is to Cooper.

Did he have the lower protruding lip that Cooper had, and can he be linked to the materials/elements found on the tie?

If the answer to either is "no", then I'd say he isn't the guy.

His lower lip protrudes as pointed out in my original post.
However, we have no idea to the extent of this description that was supposedly given by Tina, I believe it was.

As for the Tie.
If you use the particles on the tie as a sole reason for eliminating a possible poi, imo you are doing a disservice to this Cooper investigation.
This is because you have absolutely zero evidence that this was Cooper's personal use tie. You have nothing to tie it to Cooper's personal life. He could have gotten it from anywhere or anyone and there's a chance the tie on the plane wasn't even the one he was wearing. Nobody saw him take it off, nobody noticed he didn't have it on, and nobody saw him put it on the seat.
Could it be his, possibly. Should the particles be followed up as they have been, absolutely yes.
Could it lead to the real Cooper, yes it possibly could.

But if you eliminate all other possible poi's because of these particles, then it would be no different than the tunnel vision law enforcement gets when an innocent person is convicted of a crime they had no part in.

And if I am correct on my assessment of Cooper's personality trait, he would have been incapable of leaving his tie behind if it was his personal use for work tie.

Nothing would make me happier than for my assessment to be wrong and these particles do lead to the real Cooper and it can be definitively proven beyond any doubt.
But for that to happen, one of the smoking guns will have to emerge.

Jmo.

I missed the lower lip part in the original post.
 
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5120 on: September 05, 2022, 06:12:45 PM »
Jack, you have a good start in profiling your candidate. I hope you continue and dig more.

Can you find out:

1. How and where he learned the 727 could be jumped.
2. Was he on the plane or not where he should have been on 11/24/71?
3. Age?
 
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Offline Jack

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5121 on: September 07, 2022, 07:10:40 AM »
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Jack, you have a good start in profiling your candidate. I hope you continue and dig more.

Can you find out:

1. How and where he learned the 727 could be jumped.
2. Was he on the plane or not where he should have been on 11/24/71?
3. Age?

This is an excerpt from his brother-in-law's obituary
"He was very smart and quiet, and skipped a grade and graduated high school early at the age of almost seventeen and joined the Navy as a Radio Man and then later on went to electronics, and was cleared for "TOP SECRET".""

His father was a Operations Training Staff member and an Administrator at the N.A.T.T.C.
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""this base PROVIDED HIGHLY CLASSIFIED AIRBORNE electronics maintenance training for many thousands of Navy, Marine, Coast Guard, and Royal Air Force personnel""

This candidate clearly has access to possible highly classified and Top Secret airborne information, as well as access to the people in those circles.
Whether that's how he obtained the information on the aft stairs has yet to be proven, but it's sure a great piece of circumstantial evidence to warrant interest and to dig deeper into.
One would think with access to these kind of people that it wouldn't be too difficult to learn how the plane should fly as per Cooper's instructions.

This guy also served in Vietnam and I am trying to find out exactly how he served and if he had any interaction with the military 727's.

So far, no alibi for him on the night of the hijacking. Trying to dig deeper into this but not many people seem willing to talk.

I believe he was 41 at the time of the hijacking.



 

Offline Jack

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5122 on: September 07, 2022, 10:14:24 AM »
""He wasn't worried about the plane ticket
- Some people don't even think that he touched that part of the ticket jacket.""

I am assuming that the counter guy gives you a ticket to hand to the person before you board the plane, or at the very least the stewardesses collect them before take off like a bus does. So I would imagine he handled a plane ticket at some point.

""FJ also pointed out that there were hand written notes on the match book....perhaps that was another reason he wanted it back so that the writing couldn't be used as a link to him.""

I believe this is an incorrect transfer of information into the 302.
FJ never handled the matchbook, but she could have seen some words on it and assumed it was something personally written on it.
However, Bill R the co-pilot heard about this and specifically asked in the debriefing what was on this matchbook and it was clarified that it had on it something to the effect "how to get your high school diploma". It was a saying and not a personally written note.
If I have this wrong, someone please correct me.

""He wasn't worried about the railings on the aft door he probably touched on the way out.
- Again, as far as I know, they didn't retrieve any meaningful finger prints from railings...""

Your response point here doesn't really make sense in relation to what he may have or may not have been thinking of while in the presence of the moment during the hijacking. Unless I've misread it.
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5123 on: September 07, 2022, 11:10:31 AM »
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""FJ also pointed out that there were hand written notes on the match book....perhaps that was another reason he wanted it back so that the writing couldn't be used as a link to him.""

I believe this is an incorrect transfer of information into the 302.
FJ never handled the matchbook, but she could have seen some words on it and assumed it was something personally written on it.
However, Bill R the co-pilot heard about this and specifically asked in the debriefing what was on this matchbook and it was clarified that it had on it something to the effect "how to get your high school diploma". It was a saying and not a personally written note.
If I have this wrong, someone please correct me.

FJ is Flyjack and he posts over at the Dropzone forum. He no longer posts here. JAG's post mentioning FJ was in regards to something FJ wrote a few days ago in response to your post here. FJ wrote the following:

"The ICS matchbook had notes written on it.. that is why Cooper took it, not because it had personal meaning. (though Jack is correct Cooper did not seem too worried about fingerprints)"

« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 11:11:27 AM by Parrotheadvol »
 
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Offline Jack

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5124 on: September 07, 2022, 11:52:14 AM »
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""FJ also pointed out that there were hand written notes on the match book....perhaps that was another reason he wanted it back so that the writing couldn't be used as a link to him.""

I believe this is an incorrect transfer of information into the 302.
FJ never handled the matchbook, but she could have seen some words on it and assumed it was something personally written on it.
However, Bill R the co-pilot heard about this and specifically asked in the debriefing what was on this matchbook and it was clarified that it had on it something to the effect "how to get your high school diploma". It was a saying and not a personally written note.
If I have this wrong, someone please correct me.

FJ is Flyjack and he posts over at the Dropzone forum. He no longer posts here. JAG's post mentioning FJ was in regards to something FJ wrote a few days ago in response to your post here. FJ wrote the following:

"The ICS matchbook had notes written on it.. that is why Cooper took it, not because it had personal meaning. (though Jack is correct Cooper did not seem too worried about fingerprints)"

Okay thanks. Thought FJ meant Flo the stewardess.
Anyways, there wasn't any hand written notes on this matchbook. If there is proof otherwise, would love to see it.
As I stated above, the 302 used misinformation.  Easy to do when transferring so much information over.

And if there was written notes on it, you'd think Tina would have clearly seen it and what it said since she was the one lighting his cigarettes.
Also, if it had hand written notes on it, you'd think Cooper would never have given to Tina to use.
I'm sure the plane provided matches in 1971.

Jmo
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 12:47:44 PM by Jack »
 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5125 on: September 08, 2022, 04:47:15 AM »
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Here is a description of a poi.
How close do you think he is to Cooper.

Did he have the lower protruding lip that Cooper had, and can he be linked to the materials/elements found on the tie?

If the answer to either is "no", then I'd say he isn't the guy.

His lower lip protrudes as pointed out in my original post.
However, we have no idea to the extent of this description that was supposedly given by Tina, I believe it was.

As for the Tie.
If you use the particles on the tie as a sole reason for eliminating a possible poi, imo you are doing a disservice to this Cooper investigation.
This is because you have absolutely zero evidence that this was Cooper's personal use tie. You have nothing to tie it to Cooper's personal life. He could have gotten it from anywhere or anyone and there's a chance the tie on the plane wasn't even the one he was wearing. Nobody saw him take it off, nobody noticed he didn't have it on, and nobody saw him put it on the seat.
Could it be his, possibly. Should the particles be followed up as they have been, absolutely yes.
Could it lead to the real Cooper, yes it possibly could.

But if you eliminate all other possible poi's because of these particles, then it would be no different than the tunnel vision law enforcement gets when an innocent person is convicted of a crime they had no part in.

And if I am correct on my assessment of Cooper's personality trait, he would have been incapable of leaving his tie behind if it was his personal use for work tie.

Nothing would make me happier than for my assessment to be wrong and these particles do lead to the real Cooper and it can be definitively proven beyond any doubt.
But for that to happen, one of the smoking guns will have to emerge.

Jmo.

What about the fact that Richard McCoys family said, "thats Richards tie, where did you get it?" and the tie clip also?  I know its not proof.  But its another piece of a long list of evidence.  So many are so fast to rule out the guy that in my opinion is the nest candidate of the known candidates.  Of course there could be someone else that is Cooper.  I do not rule that out. But they seemed very confident it was his tie.?
 
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Offline Jack

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5126 on: September 08, 2022, 06:14:57 AM »
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Here is a description of a poi.
How close do you think he is to Cooper.

Did he have the lower protruding lip that Cooper had, and can he be linked to the materials/elements found on the tie?

If the answer to either is "no", then I'd say he isn't the guy.

His lower lip protrudes as pointed out in my original post.
However, we have no idea to the extent of this description that was supposedly given by Tina, I believe it was.

As for the Tie.
If you use the particles on the tie as a sole reason for eliminating a possible poi, imo you are doing a disservice to this Cooper investigation.
This is because you have absolutely zero evidence that this was Cooper's personal use tie. You have nothing to tie it to Cooper's personal life. He could have gotten it from anywhere or anyone and there's a chance the tie on the plane wasn't even the one he was wearing. Nobody saw him take it off, nobody noticed he didn't have it on, and nobody saw him put it on the seat.
Could it be his, possibly. Should the particles be followed up as they have been, absolutely yes.
Could it lead to the real Cooper, yes it possibly could.

But if you eliminate all other possible poi's because of these particles, then it would be no different than the tunnel vision law enforcement gets when an innocent person is convicted of a crime they had no part in.

And if I am correct on my assessment of Cooper's personality trait, he would have been incapable of leaving his tie behind if it was his personal use for work tie.

Nothing would make me happier than for my assessment to be wrong and these particles do lead to the real Cooper and it can be definitively proven beyond any doubt.
But for that to happen, one of the smoking guns will have to emerge.

Jmo.

What about the fact that Richard McCoys family said, "thats Richards tie, where did you get it?" and the tie clip also?  I know its not proof.  But its another piece of a long list of evidence.  So many are so fast to rule out the guy that in my opinion is the nest candidate of the known candidates.  Of course there could be someone else that is Cooper.  I do not rule that out. But they seemed very confident it was his tie.?

There is an fbi 302 posted that states Mccoy had a noticeable lisp/speech impediment.
Tina stated that Cooper had no noticeable accent and I'm sure she would have noticed a noticeable lisp/speech impediment.
That alone should be enough to eliminate Mccoy. It does for me, besides his photo was shown to everyone right after he was arrested and they all said no, he was definitely not Cooper.

As for what his family said about the tie.
The tie was such a generic type there would be no way to definitively say it was his unless they had his name on it.
They also could be mistaken about the tie clip in such an emotional setting.

But let's go with a hypothetical that the tie found on the plane was possibly McCoy's.
One needs to open up their mind to some creativeness here.

The main ingredient is Mccoy is NOT Cooper:
1) How can the tie be McCoy's, but Mccoy definitely isn't Cooper.
2) Also interesting are the Raleigh cigarettes Cooper smoked and Mccoy was married in Raleigh.
3) Also interesting that Cooper used a 'bomb' with what looked like dynamite sticks and Mccoy was a demolitions guy in the military.

If the tie was actually McCoy's, (and im not saying it was) there is one alternative to Mccoy not being Cooper and that is at one point prior to Norjack, Mccoy and Cooper somehow knew each other.
So Cooper smokes enough Raleigh's that they are obvious evidence, uses a 'bomb' and leaves the tie with that particular tie clip on it, all as signs to alert Mccoy that he (Cooper) has gone ahead and done this hijacking, because they have agreed they will never be able to be seen together afterwards if one of them ever went ahead with it.

I'm not suggesting this actually happened, or am I, lol.
But you just never know. It would explain why McCoy's copycat hijacking was so very close to Cooper's hijacking without Mccoy being Cooper.

Be a great angle to a new Cooper movie though.

Jmo




 

Offline DBfan57

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5127 on: September 09, 2022, 12:48:38 PM »
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Here is a description of a poi.
How close do you think he is to Cooper.

Did he have the lower protruding lip that Cooper had, and can he be linked to the materials/elements found on the tie?

If the answer to either is "no", then I'd say he isn't the guy.

His lower lip protrudes as pointed out in my original post.
However, we have no idea to the extent of this description that was supposedly given by Tina, I believe it was.

As for the Tie.
If you use the particles on the tie as a sole reason for eliminating a possible poi, imo you are doing a disservice to this Cooper investigation.
This is because you have absolutely zero evidence that this was Cooper's personal use tie. You have nothing to tie it to Cooper's personal life. He could have gotten it from anywhere or anyone and there's a chance the tie on the plane wasn't even the one he was wearing. Nobody saw him take it off, nobody noticed he didn't have it on, and nobody saw him put it on the seat.
Could it be his, possibly. Should the particles be followed up as they have been, absolutely yes.
Could it lead to the real Cooper, yes it possibly could.

But if you eliminate all other possible poi's because of these particles, then it would be no different than the tunnel vision law enforcement gets when an innocent person is convicted of a crime they had no part in.

And if I am correct on my assessment of Cooper's personality trait, he would have been incapable of leaving his tie behind if it was his personal use for work tie.

Nothing would make me happier than for my assessment to be wrong and these particles do lead to the real Cooper and it can be definitively proven beyond any doubt.
But for that to happen, one of the smoking guns will have to emerge.

Jmo.

What about the fact that Richard McCoys family said, "thats Richards tie, where did you get it?" and the tie clip also?  I know its not proof.  But its another piece of a long list of evidence.  So many are so fast to rule out the guy that in my opinion is the nest candidate of the known candidates.  Of course there could be someone else that is Cooper.  I do not rule that out. But they seemed very confident it was his tie.?

There is an fbi 302 posted that states Mccoy had a noticeable lisp/speech impediment.
Tina stated that Cooper had no noticeable accent and I'm sure she would have noticed a noticeable lisp/speech impediment.
That alone should be enough to eliminate Mccoy. It does for me, besides his photo was shown to everyone right after he was arrested and they all said no, he was definitely not Cooper.

As for what his family said about the tie.
The tie was such a generic type there would be no way to definitively say it was his unless they had his name on it.
They also could be mistaken about the tie clip in such an emotional setting.

But let's go with a hypothetical that the tie found on the plane was possibly McCoy's.
One needs to open up their mind to some creativeness here.

The main ingredient is Mccoy is NOT Cooper:
1) How can the tie be McCoy's, but Mccoy definitely isn't Cooper.
2) Also interesting are the Raleigh cigarettes Cooper smoked and Mccoy was married in Raleigh.
3) Also interesting that Cooper used a 'bomb' with what looked like dynamite sticks and Mccoy was a demolitions guy in the military.

If the tie was actually McCoy's, (and im not saying it was) there is one alternative to Mccoy not being Cooper and that is at one point prior to Norjack, Mccoy and Cooper somehow knew each other.
So Cooper smokes enough Raleigh's that they are obvious evidence, uses a 'bomb' and leaves the tie with that particular tie clip on it, all as signs to alert Mccoy that he (Cooper) has gone ahead and done this hijacking, because they have agreed they will never be able to be seen together afterwards if one of them ever went ahead with it.

I'm not suggesting this actually happened, or am I, lol.
But you just never know. It would explain why McCoy's copycat hijacking was so very close to Cooper's hijacking without Mccoy being Cooper.

Be a great angle to a new Cooper movie though.

Jmo

well nobody can accuse you of being boring.  Its not enough for me, anything that come out of the mouth of those two stewardess's is not enough.  And he may have wore a disguise. The Reno FBI messed things up. They  could have lifted some prints and they lost the damn cigarettes which is just stupid. Now do you do that?  Oops I dropped them on the  way back?  Seriously?  I realize they did not know how important DBA evidence was in 1971, but anything from that flight had value if not simply for suevenir junkies if you really need some excuse to keep them.  I am not saying Richard was Cooper. But I cannot rule him out after that show Mr Gryder put out.  Have you seen it?  Sure i ask myself, "where is part 2 Dan?"  Lets get going fella. You and that tattoed criminal son of his. The daughter to me has more credibility than him but as I have been often reminded, she was a young child in 1971.  I would like to see both undergo a lie detector test.  Seriously.  And I also would like to see Tina Mucklow listen to the voices of all the known suspects randomly, with good amount of time in between and see if any bells go off.  Voice recognition. What the hell is wrong with these cops? 
 
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Offline WalterRaleigh

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5128 on: September 09, 2022, 03:44:35 PM »
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Don Burnworth was an interesting guy. For those of us who had the pleasure of chatting with him, he was a delight.

His personal life was a train wreck at times, but he a helluva pilot.

Yo, Bruce, did he tell you about his ex-wife being a psychic? That's a little tidbit I found in the ole paper archives. Burnworth is interesting. I have to assume the FBI investigated him and found reason to eliminate him, but boy he looks a lot like that composite B rendering, and boy, he sure fits the original psychological profile done for the "In search of..." Leonard Nimoy documentary. At the time of the hijacking, Burnworth was a bitter "ex commercial" pilot, etcetera.

I think Cooper probably was a bitter former pilot or airline employee, though I'm hardly unique in this belief.

No, Don said a LOT about his ex, Bernice, but I don't recall him claiming she was psychic. Psychotic, maybe, but not skilled in the paranormal.

In 1971, Don Burnworth was not bitter. Maybe in 1972 when UAL fired him, or when Bernice got him locked up for eight days in the San Mateo hoosgah. Everyone, including the FBI, agrees Don was a delightful match to the composite sketches, but the FBI was apparently satisfied that he was not DBC since they let him go after interrogating him. Don claimed they still harbored some doubts, though and placed a mole in his cell to hear if Don spilled the beans during a quiet moment.

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Don's pilot cap is for sale on ebay.
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #5129 on: September 10, 2022, 10:48:06 AM »
Another You Tube show two days ago and another vote for Richard Floyd McCoy.