Author Topic: Suspects And Confessions  (Read 1335513 times)

MeyerLouie

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1905 on: June 01, 2017, 04:00:32 AM »
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Dice, you can just call me Cousin Brucie. It used to be Georger's favorite pet name for me. Now, I shudder to think what he calls me in private...

Bruce someone at DZ coined you Cousin Bruce years ago. Brucie came next, as a pet name, from those days. I wasnt the one who coined either of those names. It may have been Smokin99, 377, Jo Weber? It was somebody in the distant past ...... I just went along with the program, literally. And it wasn't even pejorative. Would you prefer Dr Smith? Or Professor Smith? Clipper? Billy, Bob, Maxum, Arthuld? What drives me nuts is all the personal stuff that years ago became a part of the Cooper forums .... like 'Tina is a basket case'. I sure wasn't the author of that!  That illustrates my point.  ;)

I've always appreciated Dr. Brucie's unbiased, objective reporting.
Meyer
 
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Offline dice

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1906 on: June 01, 2017, 01:55:27 PM »
Quote
Anyone got any new info on Suspects and Confessions

Derek Godsey's James Klansnic is a heck of a suspect,and he's posting stuff daily on Twitter.
Though if Klansnic was involved, then I'd bet it was a covert operation, and having a get-out-of-jail-free card.  Unlikely the man would risk going in the clink long term with a secure Boeing salary and 8 mouths to feed...
Though I haven't read Colbert s book yet, and he seems quite the investigator, I would imagine Rackstraw was involved (if an Operation) it would have been was on the ground or flying the Cessna for pickup; that reported plane flying under radar in area that night. For Colbert to get it THAT wrong, it'd be something.....

#Dicespeaks
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 02:03:29 PM by diclemeg »
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Offline dice

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1907 on: June 01, 2017, 07:03:17 PM »
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So, you are saying this was more of a stunt by Master Artisans

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Quote
Anyone got any new info on Suspects and Confessions

Derek Godsey's James Klansnic is a heck of a suspect,and he's posting stuff daily on Twitter.
Though if Klansnic was involved, then I'd bet it was a covert operation, and having a get-out-of-jail-free card.  Unlikely the man would risk going in the clink long term with a secure Boeing salary and 8 mouths to feed...
Though I haven't read Colbert s book yet, and he seems quite the investigator, I would imagine Rackstraw was involved (if an Operation) it would have been was on the ground or flying the Cessna for pickup; that reported plane flying under radar in area that night. For Colbert to get it THAT wrong, it'd be something.....

#Dicespeaks

So, you are saying this was more of a stunt by Master Artisans with nothing better to do, than a serious act of air piracy?

At what point does Dice fall out of his '57 Chevy doing 200mph and die in the ICU? Who attended his funeral?  O0
. No.  it's self explanatory.  Read it again..
And I don't have a 57 Vette but am looking to get a 2012-13 60th anniversary edition.  I don't like the new Vette, Georger...looks too much like a Ferrari.
#dice
« Last Edit: June 01, 2017, 09:03:48 PM by diclemeg »
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georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1908 on: June 03, 2017, 03:49:55 PM »
Possible NEW suspect pool?

Quotes:  "There was a static drop training range near George, WA (near Moses Lake) in 1971, used by a small group of USAF Special Forces "combat controllers” and by the Army for Loadmaster training. They shared a building at McChord and often trained together at Moses Lake. The program ‘presumably’ included drops from the back of the 727 at Moses Lake. I don’t know if this program ever came under focus when they were looking for DB Cooper, but I did hear that at one time the FBI was looking at the possibility that Cooper had Loadmaster connections. Carr brought that up perhaps because he found it mentioned in a few files. But, here is the rest of the story.

Although the group was small, these were fairly high level trainees and the program at McChord was important.

The USAF Special Forces "combat controllers" did precision freefall drops under various conditions and at night at Moses Lake.  They would also drop in and observe or participate in the Loadmaster training sessions being conducted and help provide wind data to the drop aircraft, and guide the air drop in by radio.  Their officer in charge was Capt. Wilson."

" M/Sgt R.D. (Wally) had the crew of load masters.  They had an "aerial delivery" shop in a corner of a warehouse sort of building at McChord, where they prepared stuff to go out and repacked their cargo chutes after each mission. Their work was important for training Loadmasters going to Vietnam. The group of  “USAF Special Forces combat controllers" shared a corner of the same building and each group kept the other informed and did mission planning together. The Loadmaster program was important. Several Army paratroopers from Fort Bragg were always assigned to this unit for Loadmaster training and you had to have previous paratrooper training in order to be accepted into the program. A lot of these people in both programs were training for operations in Vietnam. "

"I know Wilson and Wally got involved during the hijacking case in ‘71.  He received the request for chutes and passed it down to Wally’s shop. But then he checked with his superiors and was told not to provide the chutes or participate because full clearance had not been received. The person on the phone hadn’t even identified himself! So we didn’t supply the chutes and they had to go to private sources for those. Then within a couple of days, the matter was cleared up and the Air Force did cooperate, and several groups were formed to cooperate with the FBI and NWA in the Cooper hijacking matter. The FBI and NWA were helpless without our help.

People wondered if the hijacker was one of the people associated with the Moses Lake training operations. That was a very unique group of people with the same skills the hijacker spoke of and demonstrated. I’m not sure how that was checked out."

*Note: Special thanks to a couple of people who helped with this. 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 04:03:28 PM by georger »
 
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MeyerLouie

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1909 on: June 03, 2017, 04:30:12 PM »
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Possible NEW suspect pool?

Quotes:  "There was a static drop training range near George, WA (near Moses Lake) in 1971, used by a small group of USAF Special Forces "combat controllers” and by the Army for Loadmaster training. They shared a building at McChord and often trained together at Moses Lake. The program ‘presumably’ included drops from the back of the 727 at Moses Lake. I don’t know if this program ever came under focus when they were looking for DB Cooper, but I did hear that at one time the FBI was looking at the possibility that Cooper had Loadmaster connections. Carr brought that up perhaps because he found it mentioned in a few files. But, here is the rest of the story.

Although the group was small, these were fairly high level trainees and the program at McChord was important.

The USAF Special Forces "combat controllers" did precision freefall drops under various conditions and at night at Moses Lake.  They would also drop in and observe or participate in the Loadmaster training sessions being conducted and help provide wind data to the drop aircraft, and guide the air drop in by radio.  Their officer in charge was Capt. Wilson."

" M/Sgt R.D. (Wally) had the crew of load masters.  They had an "aerial delivery" shop in a corner of a warehouse sort of building at McChord, where they prepared stuff to go out and repacked their cargo chutes after each mission. Their work was important for training Loadmasters going to Vietnam. The group of  “USAF Special Forces combat controllers" shared a corner of the same building and each group kept the other informed and did mission planning together. The Loadmaster program was important. Several Army paratroopers from Fort Bragg were always assigned to this unit for Loadmaster training and you had to have previous paratrooper training in order to be accepted into the program. A lot of these people in both programs were training for operations in Vietnam. "

"I know Wilson and Wally got involved during the hijacking case in ‘71.  He received the request for chutes and passed it down to Wally’s shop. But then he checked with his superiors and was told not to provide the chutes or participate because full clearance had not been received. The person on the phone hadn’t even identified himself! So we didn’t supply the chutes and they had to go to private sources for those. Then within a couple of days, the matter was cleared up and the Air Force did cooperate, and several groups were formed to cooperate with the FBI and NWA in the Cooper hijacking matter. The FBI and NWA were helpless without our help.

People wondered if the hijacker was one of the people associated with the Moses Lake training operations. That was a very unique group of people with the same skills the hijacker spoke of and demonstrated. I’m not sure how that was checked out."

*Note: Special thanks to a couple of people who helped with this.

That's fascinating stuff, Georger.  I'm intrigued and would like to study it further.  George, WA....I had a girlfriend in the 80s from George, WA.  You'll never forget it if you ever get the opportunity to visit George, Washington.  I used to drink beer at the Martha Inn and knew the family who owned the establishment. 
Meyer
 

georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1910 on: June 03, 2017, 04:46:03 PM »
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Possible NEW suspect pool?

Quotes:  "There was a static drop training range near George, WA (near Moses Lake) in 1971, used by a small group of USAF Special Forces "combat controllers” and by the Army for Loadmaster training. They shared a building at McChord and often trained together at Moses Lake. The program ‘presumably’ included drops from the back of the 727 at Moses Lake. I don’t know if this program ever came under focus when they were looking for DB Cooper, but I did hear that at one time the FBI was looking at the possibility that Cooper had Loadmaster connections. Carr brought that up perhaps because he found it mentioned in a few files. But, here is the rest of the story.

Although the group was small, these were fairly high level trainees and the program at McChord was important.

The USAF Special Forces "combat controllers" did precision freefall drops under various conditions and at night at Moses Lake.  They would also drop in and observe or participate in the Loadmaster training sessions being conducted and help provide wind data to the drop aircraft, and guide the air drop in by radio.  Their officer in charge was Capt. Wilson."

" M/Sgt R.D. (Wally) had the crew of load masters.  They had an "aerial delivery" shop in a corner of a warehouse sort of building at McChord, where they prepared stuff to go out and repacked their cargo chutes after each mission. Their work was important for training Loadmasters going to Vietnam. The group of  “USAF Special Forces combat controllers" shared a corner of the same building and each group kept the other informed and did mission planning together. The Loadmaster program was important. Several Army paratroopers from Fort Bragg were always assigned to this unit for Loadmaster training and you had to have previous paratrooper training in order to be accepted into the program. A lot of these people in both programs were training for operations in Vietnam. "

"I know Wilson and Wally got involved during the hijacking case in ‘71.  He received the request for chutes and passed it down to Wally’s shop. But then he checked with his superiors and was told not to provide the chutes or participate because full clearance had not been received. The person on the phone hadn’t even identified himself! So we didn’t supply the chutes and they had to go to private sources for those. Then within a couple of days, the matter was cleared up and the Air Force did cooperate, and several groups were formed to cooperate with the FBI and NWA in the Cooper hijacking matter. The FBI and NWA were helpless without our help.

People wondered if the hijacker was one of the people associated with the Moses Lake training operations. That was a very unique group of people with the same skills the hijacker spoke of and demonstrated. I’m not sure how that was checked out."

*Note: Special thanks to a couple of people who helped with this.

That's fascinating stuff, Georger.  I'm intrigued and would like to study it further.  George, WA....I had a girlfriend in the 80s from George, WA.  You'll never forget it if you ever get the opportunity to visit George, Washington.  I used to drink beer at the Martha Inn and knew the family who owned the establishment. 
Meyer

I heard about this clear back in 2009/12/14 when several people started looking at the actual AF involvement. I had always been told without the Air Force the FBI was in over their heads and turned to McChord for help. But if the connection to Special Forces and Loadmasters is true (Carr may have run across this mentioned in FBI files) then it is something that has to be followed up on especially if 727 rear drops were involved right in the hijackings back door at Moses Lake. 377 has always contended 727 drops were TOP SECRET and known only in Vietnam! I tried to tell 377 that was not true. I had the Moses Lake story in mind all along, just never developed it. I mean 727 drops weren't invented in Vietnam!  Somebody had to be practicing them and developing the program somewhere Stateside. Moses Lake may have been one of those operations and apparently was. It offer a ready population of people with all the skills to have done a Cooper style hijacking, right in Victor 23's back door. Hiding in plain sight.

Carr brought Loadmasters up. He got that in some file? Carr mentioned a match of skill sets: Cooper vs Loadmasters. And there it is in full form right in the McChord/Moses Lake operation. I have to believe Carr found his reference to this in some FBI file. The question is: how far did the FBI or military people investigate this.

Why wouldnt the FBI be looking at these guys! ?  Its a prime pool of people to look at.     

Is it possible Cooper went back and joined his unit and sat watching everyone scrambling looking for him?

Im surprised Snowmman and 377 didn't latch on to this and develop it. But that is ancient history now. And it puts all of the other "pudknocker suspects" in perspective: Kenny. Weber, McCoy, Peterson, etal. Cooper may have been somebody who had some real skills gained through a long association with the military. Someone with a grudge who needed some money. Middle aged and saying to himself: Hell why not! Lets go for it! 
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 04:55:46 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1911 on: June 03, 2017, 05:22:00 PM »
727 drop testing and Moses Lake isn't totally unknown to us, G, but I am very glad you are pursuing this.

Sailshaw has talked quite a bit about the Boeing 727 tests at Moses Lake. I also discussed a couple leads involving Moses Like, such as one of the flight controllers that came in over the transom from a DBC aficionado in Astoria, OR who is convinced that one of her neighbors is the skyjacker.

I'll check my notes...
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1912 on: June 03, 2017, 05:29:55 PM »
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Is it possible Cooper went back and joined his unit and sat watching everyone scrambling looking for him?

Carr believes Cooper came from McChord, and is possible why he thought Cooper wanted out shortly after takeoff...
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1913 on: June 03, 2017, 05:49:28 PM »
Moses Lake Boeing Test Facility

Here are some names I was given regarding the Boeing testing at Moses Lake - Rodger Seaman directed the Flight Test Lab, Bob Harris was an engineer in charge of the test lab. Not sure on timelines and era.

Originally, the runway and aviation facilities were built by the military, who named it Larsen AFB. Boeing bought it in 1968. The "North Training Area" was used for military ops. Currently, there is no commercial air traffic, which ended in 2010. There are approximately 150 flights a day at the facility. Half are estimated to be military. The remainder are general aviation.

The Cooper sleuth is named "Sunnie Bell," and she contacted me in 2015. She names an air traffic controller from Larsen AFB, Ed Kingrey, as DBC. Kingrey was an ATC in Portland in 1971, apparently. He was also an ATC in Saudi Arabia, 1982-1985.

I was only able to get general information on Kingrey. He was a county sheriff's deputy in the second half of his life. Nothing jumped out at me that said, SKYJACKER. But Sunnie says she knows the guy and is a True Believer.
 

georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1914 on: June 03, 2017, 05:49:44 PM »
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Is it possible Cooper went back and joined his unit and sat watching everyone scrambling looking for him?

Carr believes Cooper came from McChord, and is possible why he thought Cooper wanted out shortly after takeoff...

I must of missed that?

Much of what Cooper demanded reflects tactical planning. His behavior dealing with people is quasi-tactical. He ID's Tacoma and McChord from the air. He gives a timeline for travel from MCChord to SEA with chutes. His refueling instructions concern balancing the plane ... for a smooth low velocity drop. His trim instructions are drop-tactical. His rigging is tactical. He jumps just south of a McChord-Moses Lake line. If he had flown that route a number of times then he knew the territory. He vanishes, nothing but placard found in that area.

I am still reading files - a long process.

But how does money get to Tina Bar!   
 

georger

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1915 on: June 03, 2017, 05:52:09 PM »
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Moses Lake Boeing Test Facility

Here are some names I was given regarding the Boeing testing at Moses Lake - Rodger Seaman directed the Flight Test Lab, Bob Harris was an engineer in charge of the test lab. Not sure on timelines and era.

Originally, the runway and aviation facilities were built by the military, who named it Larsen AFB. Boeing bought it in 1968. The "North Training Area" was used for military ops. Currently, there is no commercial air traffic, which ended in 2010. There are approximately 150 flights a day at the facility. Half are estimated to be military. The remainder are general aviation.

The Cooper sleuth is named "Sunnie Bell," and she contacted me in 2015. She names an air traffic controller from Larsen AFB, Ed Kingrey, as DBC. Kingrey was an ATC in Portland in 1971, apparently. He was also an ATC in Saudi Arabia, 1982-1985.

I was only able to get general information on Kingrey. He was a county sheriff's deputy in the second half of his life. Nothing jumped out at me that said, SKYJACKER. But Sunnie says she knows the guy and is a True Believer.

Good. Will add this info to the pile.

Get more info if you can! asap

I appreciate the interest being shown to this !  :)

Bruce, its Larson AFB not Larsen.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 05:56:59 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1916 on: June 03, 2017, 06:28:51 PM »
Agent Carr

November 2007
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Your right, I believe the reason DB Cooper never specified a flight path is because it did not matter, he was going to jump just a few minutes out of Seatac, so the flight path was of no concern. When plan A failed there was no plan B, plan B became as soon as he could get the air stairs down. Not long after takeoff Cooper tried to get the stairs to lower. After several minutes he called up to the captain saying he could not get the stairs down. The captain leveled the flight and slowed the planes speed. The crew called back a few minutes later and Cooper said everything was ok. Not long after that communication, out into the night.

March 2008
Quote
Cooper was in the military during the time frame of 1946 to 1951, give or take a few years. He was stationed out of McChord or Ft Lewis. He served on an air crew in some capacity and received cursory training in emergency exit (which is why he chose the military chute over the obvious choice, it was all he knew).
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1917 on: June 03, 2017, 06:40:00 PM »
The problem I see is the time frame of what Carr states about the slowing down, and then Cooper's last transmission being several minutes later? we are talking about a 20 + minute gap between trying to get the stairs down, and his last communication?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2017, 06:40:58 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1918 on: June 03, 2017, 07:31:01 PM »
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The Cooper sleuth is named "Sunnie Bell," and she contacted me in 2015. She names an air traffic controller from Larsen AFB, Ed Kingrey, as DBC. Kingrey was an ATC in Portland in 1971, apparently. He was also an ATC in Saudi Arabia, 1982-1985.

In 1967 Eddie was employed by the FAA beginning here at Grant County Airport at Moses Lake Wa. He transferred to the Portland Airport and retired In 1981 Ed Kingrey left the FAA. ,Was hired as a Deputy Sheriff.

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Suspects And Confessions
« Reply #1919 on: June 03, 2017, 07:44:32 PM »
Vicki just sent me this information...

New Boston author says he knows identity of D.B. Cooper
Bill Rollins, who was a member here, still is...

Bill Rollins thinks he knows the identity of the skyjacker the FBI dubbed “D.B. Cooper,” and he has written a book that lays out his theories.

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