Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 751787 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3900 on: February 21, 2021, 04:44:37 PM »
Not the first time something like this has happened with parts of the engine or cowling coming off...

..
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3901 on: February 21, 2021, 05:42:31 PM »
Shutter,

Given that it appears the debris from yesterday’s incident fell straight down underneath the flight path, what would account for the insistence that the Hicks placard floated several miles off 305s flight path? Yesterday had the same altitude, same wind speed, same wind direction. So what would account for the miles deviation of the Hicks placard? Just it’s weight?
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3902 on: February 21, 2021, 06:01:24 PM »
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Shutter,

Given that it appears the debris from yesterday’s incident fell straight down underneath the flight path, what would account for the insistence that the Hicks placard floated several miles off 305s flight path? Yesterday had the same altitude, same wind speed, same wind direction. So what would account for the miles deviation of the Hicks placard? Just it’s weight?

Shutter, permit me to inject something here.  Nothing from an airliner that is doing at least 200+ MPH falls straight down.  Everything has an initial forward motion along the flight path, but the heavier objects will continue further along that path than the lighter objects which will slow down much faster.  Things such as the Cooper placard will slow down almost instantly.  But in short order, everything is moving vertically with respect to the air mass and subject to the winds aloft.

The heavier objects will be on the ground first and the lighter objects will take longer and thus will drift horizontally much further.  In sky diving, a no-pull skydiver falling head first from 10,000 feet will be on the ground in about 40 seconds.  If he is in a stable spread, it will take about 60 seconds.  If he is under canopy from 10,000 feet, the descent rate will be about 1200 feet per minute and he will be on the ground in about 8 minutes.
 
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3903 on: February 28, 2021, 08:22:23 AM »
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Shutter,

Given that it appears the debris from yesterday’s incident fell straight down underneath the flight path, what would account for the insistence that the Hicks placard floated several miles off 305s flight path? Yesterday had the same altitude, same wind speed, same wind direction. So what would account for the miles deviation of the Hicks placard? Just it’s weight?

Shutter, permit me to inject something here.  Nothing from an airliner that is doing at least 200+ MPH falls straight down.  Everything has an initial forward motion along the flight path, but the heavier objects will continue further along that path than the lighter objects which will slow down much faster.  Things such as the Cooper placard will slow down almost instantly.  But in short order, everything is moving vertically with respect to the air mass and subject to the winds aloft.

The heavier objects will be on the ground first and the lighter objects will take longer and thus will drift horizontally much further.  In sky diving, a no-pull skydiver falling head first from 10,000 feet will be on the ground in about 40 seconds.  If he is in a stable spread, it will take about 60 seconds.  If he is under canopy from 10,000 feet, the descent rate will be about 1200 feet per minute and he will be on the ground in about 8 minutes.
So I assume experiments have been done other than the one determining that the noise they heard was verified to be him leaping from the stairs?  So accounting for the wind speed and direction that night, (I do not know how accurate weather report on winds and such were in 1971?), and his weight and all, they should have done a simulation with both scenario's.   The chute deployed and the chute not.  But it seems pretty obvious that he did make it, deploy the chute, because if he had simply crashed to his demise, SOMETHING WOULD HAVE BEEN FOUND.  How many are still alive that were in the cock pit?  I know the captain passed away a long time ago.  And I know Bruce said that one guy changes his story often?  They really must come up with an accurate course in the Victor 23 path.  I have heard the reports that they are unsure of the course taken?  Even with very high winds as they say there were that night, how far would something that heavy drift?

It would be good to try and do a simulation with weather conditions that were as similar as possible to that night.  I know that is not easy
« Last Edit: February 28, 2021, 08:28:10 AM by DBfan57 »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3904 on: February 28, 2021, 11:30:11 AM »
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Shutter,

Given that it appears the debris from yesterday’s incident fell straight down underneath the flight path, what would account for the insistence that the Hicks placard floated several miles off 305s flight path? Yesterday had the same altitude, same wind speed, same wind direction. So what would account for the miles deviation of the Hicks placard? Just it’s weight?

Shutter, permit me to inject something here.  Nothing from an airliner that is doing at least 200+ MPH falls straight down.  Everything has an initial forward motion along the flight path, but the heavier objects will continue further along that path than the lighter objects which will slow down much faster.  Things such as the Cooper placard will slow down almost instantly.  But in short order, everything is moving vertically with respect to the air mass and subject to the winds aloft.

The heavier objects will be on the ground first and the lighter objects will take longer and thus will drift horizontally much further.  In sky diving, a no-pull skydiver falling head first from 10,000 feet will be on the ground in about 40 seconds.  If he is in a stable spread, it will take about 60 seconds.  If he is under canopy from 10,000 feet, the descent rate will be about 1200 feet per minute and he will be on the ground in about 8 minutes.
So I assume experiments have been done other than the one determining that the noise they heard was verified to be him leaping from the stairs?  So accounting for the wind speed and direction that night, (I do not know how accurate weather report on winds and such were in 1971?), and his weight and all, they should have done a simulation with both scenario's.   The chute deployed and the chute not.  But it seems pretty obvious that he did make it, deploy the chute, because if he had simply crashed to his demise, SOMETHING WOULD HAVE BEEN FOUND.  How many are still alive that were in the cock pit?  I know the captain passed away a long time ago.  And I know Bruce said that one guy changes his story often?  They really must come up with an accurate course in the Victor 23 path.  I have heard the reports that they are unsure of the course taken?  Even with very high winds as they say there were that night, how far would something that heavy drift?

It would be good to try and do a simulation with weather conditions that were as similar as possible to that night.  I know that is not easy
There are many scenarios that would have DBC perish in the jump without any remains being found.

Also, despite a vocal minority disputing it, 305 flew down Victor 23.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3905 on: February 28, 2021, 12:37:17 PM »
A flight simulation has been done retracing the path made by the Air Force. you have things to consider. how accurate was the timing of the jump. did they look in the right place. you read reports of the oscillation and pressure bump occurring close together and reports of minutes apart. parts of the search area were impenetrable. lots of variables, especially for 1971.

you could pretty much put the plane anywhere east or west from the Columbia close to Amboy and get similar times
with flight since the plane never flew far enough east or west to disrupt any timing.

The Air Force made the map. they had two radar systems. the first was the same system used at civilian airports we know and the second was the Sage radar that protected the country from enemy aircraft. it's not really written in stone exactly how they made the map or what radar they used. the job of the sage radar was to identify all the aircraft in the sky 24/7. they had to mark or "paint" each target so they would know exactly what was in the air at any given time.

The flight path has been disputed by a few believing the path was more westerly flying over the Columbia in the Tina bar area. it is a plausible path but goes against all the known evidence. it's supported by several factors with timing in the flight, the placard found and the money location on Tbar.

There is some who believe the path was more easterly as well including agents..

The weather. that has some issues. a report showing a possible wind change around the time of the jump is in the 302's and a report from a commercial pilot not far behind flight 305. a wrench gets thrown into everything surrounding this case. some say it was pouring and other say it was light rain as weather was documented.

If you are not sure of any type of simulations or wind direction etc. how can one come to a conclusion of life or death?  based on what I know or believe, I think it's possible he made it but can't say for certain. the copycats made it. even at faster speeds. some having zero experience.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3906 on: February 28, 2021, 12:49:52 PM »
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A flight simulation has been done retracing the path made by the Air Force. you have things to consider. how accurate was the timing of the jump. did they look in the right place. you read reports of the oscillation and pressure bump occurring close together and reports of minutes apart. parts of the search area were impenetrable. lots of variables, especially for 1971.

you could pretty much put the plane anywhere east or west from the Columbia close to Amboy and get similar times
with flight since the plane never flew far enough east or west to disrupt any timing.

The Air Force made the map. they had two radar systems. the first was the same system used at civilian airports we know and the second was the Sage radar that protected the country from enemy aircraft. it's not really written in stone exactly how they made the map or what radar they used. the job of the sage radar was to identify all the aircraft in the sky 24/7. they had to mark or "paint" each target so they would know exactly what was in the air at any given time.

The flight path has been disputed by a few believing the path was more westerly flying over the Columbia in the Tina bar area. it is a plausible path but goes against all the known evidence. it's supported by several factors with timing in the flight, the placard found and the money location on Tbar.

There is some who believe the path was more easterly as well including agents..

The weather. that has some issues. a report showing a possible wind change around the time of the jump is in the 302's and a report from a commercial pilot not far behind flight 305. a wrench gets thrown into everything surrounding this case. some say it was pouring and other say it was light rain as weather was documented.

If you are not sure of any type of simulations or wind direction etc. how can one come to a conclusion of life or death?  based on what I know or believe, I think it's possible he made it but can't say for certain. the copycats made it. even at faster speeds. some having zero experience.

One of the benefits of being part of a major show like the one on the History Channel is that a lot of people reach out to you afterwards.

In fact, I was contacted by a commercial pilot for another airline who was sitting in the cockpit of his airliner at SeaTac the night of the skyjacking and watched 305 as it sat off in the distance and listened to radio communication between the 305 pilots and the tower. This is because SeaTac was shut down during the incident and they couldn't depart.

He watched 305 depart SeaTac and was finally permitted to depart SeaTac about half an hour later. Ironically his flight was to PDX, therefore he was only about 30 minutes behind 305. He described the weather to me that night and mentioned nothing of the kind of winds that Bohar (sic?) mentions. In fact, the weather was described precisely as we understand it today, the weather arriving from the southwest which is typical.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3907 on: February 28, 2021, 12:53:17 PM »
I would have to read the 302 again on the commercial pilots comments but don't know how he got that information in the first place..
 

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3908 on: February 28, 2021, 01:02:38 PM »
I called 377 yesterday and spoke with him awhile about the case. I mentioned to him that I believe there is something I am missing that will put it all together. Meaning, I believe somewhere in the files, evidence, pictures, etc., there is a small piece of evidence that is being overlooked that could unlock the key to everything.

To that end, I have been going over a lot of materials at an almost forensic level to find that missing link. I would encourage others to do the same.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3909 on: February 28, 2021, 01:05:14 PM »
Perhaps Bohar was an example of injecting ones self into the crime?
 

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3910 on: February 28, 2021, 01:09:47 PM »
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Perhaps Bohar was an example of injecting ones self into the crime?

I think that may well be the case. I believe some of the witnesses on the flight did the same. In fact, the only witnesses from the flight that I pay attention to are the three flight attendants and Bill Mitchell to a lesser degree--because he didn't know what was going on.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3911 on: February 28, 2021, 01:13:04 PM »
I have never been certain of Mitchell. even his statements soon after the hijacking were not detailed. I question a lot of what he really seen or remembered. he often hides under the memory clause and might of gotten over his head, not sure. he sounds like a nice guy but he troubles me, always has...
 

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3912 on: February 28, 2021, 01:23:50 PM »
The three flight attendants were remarkably consistent in their descriptions: 45ish, 6' - 6'1", olive complexion.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3913 on: February 28, 2021, 01:50:55 PM »
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Shutter,

Given that it appears the debris from yesterday’s incident fell straight down underneath the flight path, what would account for the insistence that the Hicks placard floated several miles off 305s flight path? Yesterday had the same altitude, same wind speed, same wind direction. So what would account for the miles deviation of the Hicks placard? Just it’s weight?

Shutter, permit me to inject something here.  Nothing from an airliner that is doing at least 200+ MPH falls straight down.  Everything has an initial forward motion along the flight path, but the heavier objects will continue further along that path than the lighter objects which will slow down much faster.  Things such as the Cooper placard will slow down almost instantly.  But in short order, everything is moving vertically with respect to the air mass and subject to the winds aloft.

The heavier objects will be on the ground first and the lighter objects will take longer and thus will drift horizontally much further.  In sky diving, a no-pull skydiver falling head first from 10,000 feet will be on the ground in about 40 seconds.  If he is in a stable spread, it will take about 60 seconds.  If he is under canopy from 10,000 feet, the descent rate will be about 1200 feet per minute and he will be on the ground in about 8 minutes.
So I assume experiments have been done other than the one determining that the noise they heard was verified to be him leaping from the stairs?  So accounting for the wind speed and direction that night, (I do not know how accurate weather report on winds and such were in 1971?), and his weight and all, they should have done a simulation with both scenario's.   The chute deployed and the chute not.  But it seems pretty obvious that he did make it, deploy the chute, because if he had simply crashed to his demise, SOMETHING WOULD HAVE BEEN FOUND.  How many are still alive that were in the cock pit?  I know the captain passed away a long time ago.  And I know Bruce said that one guy changes his story often?  They really must come up with an accurate course in the Victor 23 path.  I have heard the reports that they are unsure of the course taken?  Even with very high winds as they say there were that night, how far would something that heavy drift?

It would be good to try and do a simulation with weather conditions that were as similar as possible to that night.  I know that is not easy

I believe both William Rataczak and Harald Anderson are still alive and both were interviewed in a recent TV program on the hijacking.  The problem with these TV interviews is that the right questions don't get asked and the result is they are not very informative.

The weather stories put out by Captain Bohan and others do not agree with the actual measured weather for the night of the hijacking.  Bohan claims to have had an 80 Knot headwind from the southeast on his flight between SEATAC and Portland and about a 30 knot crosswind component when landing to the southeast at Portland.  There were no 80 Knot winds aloft in the Seattle/Portland area that evening and the actual measured ground wind at Portland for the day of the hijacking never exceeded about 10 Knots.  Bohan's claims can be ignored.

Thanks to Tom Kaye's efforts, the hourly weather sequence reports and the forecast winds aloft for the entire Pacific Northwest area have long been available for the time of the hijacking.  Kaye also recently came up with the measured winds aloft for the time of the hijacking.  All of this information is probably posted somewhere on one of Shutter's sites.

The measured winds aloft were slightly higher than the forecast winds aloft but never exceeded about 35 Knots from the southwest for 10,000 feet above sea level and lower altitudes.  The weather at Portland for the time the hijacked airliner was passing through was always described as light rain and good visibility with several cloud layers and a complete overcast at 5000 feet.  The sea level barometric pressure was above standard (29.92 in.Hg.) and increasing from Seattle south and that means the weather was improving the further south the airliner flew.

There seems to be some misconceptions about the airliner being far off the V-23 airway.  For what is now called the Western Flight Path, the airliner was never more than 3 or 4 miles from V-23 and that was only for a very brief time as it bypassed Portland on the west side.  All of the Western Flight Path is in controlled airspace and it was while on that flight path that the T-33, F-102s, and F-106s were initially vectored to intercept the airliner.

The WFP passes about 1000 feet west of Tina Bar and the airliner basically flew over the Columbia River for about 10 miles as it was passing Tina Bar.  If Cooper was a no-pull and jumped while in the Tina Bar area, he would have landed on the east side of the Columbia River and west of the Northwest Lower River Road.  The money could never have made it to Tina Bar if he had landed on the east side of the Northwest Lower River Road.  This had been discussed at length over the years.

As a no-pull, Cooper would be a very difficult figure to locate in the brush and wooded area along the east bank of the Columbia River.  There are many, many instances of searches that could not find extremely large objects in such terrain. 
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3914 on: February 28, 2021, 02:32:25 PM »
Let's take the money and think this through:

The money weighed 20 lbs. If it got wet it would have weighed appreciably more.

Now assuming he rid himself of everything except the money and that the FBI dropzone is correct, DBC would have had to walk approximately 30 miles in very difficult terrain, in poor weather conditions, while avoiding being seen, carrying a 20 lbs bag of cash.

Think about that for a moment. I challenge anyone to attempt a 30-mile walk carrying a 20 lbs weight in good conditions let alone what I described above.

For anyone, especially someone in his mid-40's, this is bordering on physically impossible--especially if he injured himself in any manner during the jump and landing.

This means DBC had to land much closer to Tena Bar than the FBI thinks. Unless, of course, someone wants to argue that he had the money in the trunk of his car and that he drove it to Tena Bar to bury it which makes absolutely no sense.

Needless to say, I do not believe DBC died that night by way of no-pulling on or near Tena Bar. Therefore, I consider the money find alone an extremely compelling piece of evidence that almost single-handedly significantly limits the actual dropzone to within a few miles of Tena Bar. If I'm right about that, the FBI Flight Path cannot be correct and the Western Flight Path cannot be incorrect.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

RFK