Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 283423 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3915 on: February 28, 2021, 03:50:11 PM »
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Let's take the money and think this through:

The money weighed 20 lbs. If it got wet it would have weighed appreciably more.

Now assuming he rid himself of everything except the money and that the FBI dropzone is correct, DBC would have had to walk approximately 30 miles in very difficult terrain, in poor weather conditions, while avoiding being seen, carrying a 20 lbs bag of cash.

Think about that for a moment. I challenge anyone to attempt a 30-mile walk carrying a 20 lbs weight in good conditions let alone what I described above.

For anyone, especially someone in his mid-40's, this is bordering on physically impossible--especially if he injured himself in any manner during the jump and landing.

This means DBC had to land much closer to Tena Bar than the FBI thinks. Unless, of course, someone wants to argue that he had the money in the trunk of his car and that he drove it to Tena Bar to bury it which makes absolutely no sense.

Needless to say, I do not believe DBC died that night by way of no-pulling on or near Tena Bar. Therefore, I consider the money find alone an extremely compelling piece of evidence that almost single-handedly significantly limits the actual dropzone to within a few miles of Tena Bar. If I'm right about that, the FBI Flight Path cannot be correct and the Western Flight Path cannot be incorrect.

EU, while we disagree about the no-pull and some other details, we certainly agree that all indications are that Cooper jumped very near Tina Bar.  And the Western Flight Path is definitely correct.
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3916 on: February 28, 2021, 04:09:36 PM »
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Let's take the money and think this through:

The money weighed 20 lbs. If it got wet it would have weighed appreciably more.

Now assuming he rid himself of everything except the money and that the FBI dropzone is correct, DBC would have had to walk approximately 30 miles in very difficult terrain, in poor weather conditions, while avoiding being seen, carrying a 20 lbs bag of cash.

Think about that for a moment. I challenge anyone to attempt a 30-mile walk carrying a 20 lbs weight in good conditions let alone what I described above.

For anyone, especially someone in his mid-40's, this is bordering on physically impossible--especially if he injured himself in any manner during the jump and landing.

This means DBC had to land much closer to Tena Bar than the FBI thinks. Unless, of course, someone wants to argue that he had the money in the trunk of his car and that he drove it to Tena Bar to bury it which makes absolutely no sense.

Needless to say, I do not believe DBC died that night by way of no-pulling on or near Tena Bar. Therefore, I consider the money find alone an extremely compelling piece of evidence that almost single-handedly significantly limits the actual dropzone to within a few miles of Tena Bar. If I'm right about that, the FBI Flight Path cannot be correct and the Western Flight Path cannot be incorrect.

EU, while we disagree about the no-pull and some other details, we certainly agree that all indications are that Cooper jumped very near Tina Bar.  And the Western Flight Path is definitely correct.

So if that's the case, did they just simply get the flight path wrong, or did they intentionally put out a wrong flight path?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3917 on: February 28, 2021, 04:20:10 PM »
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Let's take the money and think this through:

The money weighed 20 lbs. If it got wet it would have weighed appreciably more.

Now assuming he rid himself of everything except the money and that the FBI dropzone is correct, DBC would have had to walk approximately 30 miles in very difficult terrain, in poor weather conditions, while avoiding being seen, carrying a 20 lbs bag of cash.

Think about that for a moment. I challenge anyone to attempt a 30-mile walk carrying a 20 lbs weight in good conditions let alone what I described above.

For anyone, especially someone in his mid-40's, this is bordering on physically impossible--especially if he injured himself in any manner during the jump and landing.

This means DBC had to land much closer to Tena Bar than the FBI thinks. Unless, of course, someone wants to argue that he had the money in the trunk of his car and that he drove it to Tena Bar to bury it which makes absolutely no sense.

Needless to say, I do not believe DBC died that night by way of no-pulling on or near Tena Bar. Therefore, I consider the money find alone an extremely compelling piece of evidence that almost single-handedly significantly limits the actual dropzone to within a few miles of Tena Bar. If I'm right about that, the FBI Flight Path cannot be correct and the Western Flight Path cannot be incorrect.

EU, while we disagree about the no-pull and some other details, we certainly agree that all indications are that Cooper jumped very near Tina Bar.  And the Western Flight Path is definitely correct.

So if that's the case, did they just simply get the flight path wrong, or did they intentionally put out a wrong flight path?

I think they simply got the flight path wrong. I suspect the error occurred by way of the Air Force using the radar hits from the Air Force chase planes and not 305 itself. Remember, the chase planes were directed to fly approximately 10 miles east of 305 as the airliner headed south. Moreover, they would pass 305 up, then have to circle back around because of the speed issues.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3918 on: February 28, 2021, 04:33:09 PM »
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Let's take the money and think this through:

The money weighed 20 lbs. If it got wet it would have weighed appreciably more.

Now assuming he rid himself of everything except the money and that the FBI dropzone is correct, DBC would have had to walk approximately 30 miles in very difficult terrain, in poor weather conditions, while avoiding being seen, carrying a 20 lbs bag of cash.

Think about that for a moment. I challenge anyone to attempt a 30-mile walk carrying a 20 lbs weight in good conditions let alone what I described above.

For anyone, especially someone in his mid-40's, this is bordering on physically impossible--especially if he injured himself in any manner during the jump and landing.

This means DBC had to land much closer to Tena Bar than the FBI thinks. Unless, of course, someone wants to argue that he had the money in the trunk of his car and that he drove it to Tena Bar to bury it which makes absolutely no sense.

Needless to say, I do not believe DBC died that night by way of no-pulling on or near Tena Bar. Therefore, I consider the money find alone an extremely compelling piece of evidence that almost single-handedly significantly limits the actual dropzone to within a few miles of Tena Bar. If I'm right about that, the FBI Flight Path cannot be correct and the Western Flight Path cannot be incorrect.

EU, while we disagree about the no-pull and some other details, we certainly agree that all indications are that Cooper jumped very near Tina Bar.  And the Western Flight Path is definitely correct.

So if that's the case, did they just simply get the flight path wrong, or did they intentionally put out a wrong flight path?

They simply got the flight path wrong.  And that is the probable reason that the FBI will not release the un-redacted radio transcripts from the Seattle ATC Center.  Compare the Seattle ATC Center transcripts with the Oakland ATC Center transcripts and you will see what I am talking about.  The Oakland ATC Center transcripts are textbook air traffic control communications for the 1971 time frame.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3919 on: February 28, 2021, 04:33:22 PM »
The air force tracked every plane that took off and was labeled shortly there after. they would know which planes were which.
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3920 on: February 28, 2021, 06:23:05 PM »
I don't argue with people who think the moon landing was faked. I don't argue with people who think the earth is flat. I don't argue with people who think Trump won the election.

I also no longer argue with people who think the flight path was anything other than the central one. The physical, circumstantial, and documented evidence is utterly overwhelming, and any other suggestions aren't worth considering.

That said, there are many other logical scenarios that place the money on Tena Bar besides landing near there or Cooper walking there - particularly those involving the river.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3921 on: February 28, 2021, 06:36:59 PM »
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A flight simulation has been done retracing the path made by the Air Force. you have things to consider. how accurate was the timing of the jump. did they look in the right place. you read reports of the oscillation and pressure bump occurring close together and reports of minutes apart. parts of the search area were impenetrable. lots of variables, especially for 1971.

you could pretty much put the plane anywhere east or west from the Columbia close to Amboy and get similar times
with flight since the plane never flew far enough east or west to disrupt any timing.

The Air Force made the map. they had two radar systems. the first was the same system used at civilian airports we know and the second was the Sage radar that protected the country from enemy aircraft. it's not really written in stone exactly how they made the map or what radar they used. the job of the sage radar was to identify all the aircraft in the sky 24/7. they had to mark or "paint" each target so they would know exactly what was in the air at any given time.

The flight path has been disputed by a few believing the path was more westerly flying over the Columbia in the Tina bar area. it is a plausible path but goes against all the known evidence. it's supported by several factors with timing in the flight, the placard found and the money location on Tbar.

There is some who believe the path was more easterly as well including agents..

The weather. that has some issues. a report showing a possible wind change around the time of the jump is in the 302's and a report from a commercial pilot not far behind flight 305. a wrench gets thrown into everything surrounding this case. some say it was pouring and other say it was light rain as weather was documented.

If you are not sure of any type of simulations or wind direction etc. how can one come to a conclusion of life or death?  based on what I know or believe, I think it's possible he made it but can't say for certain. the copycats made it. even at faster speeds. some having zero experience.

One of the benefits of being part of a major show like the one on the History Channel is that a lot of people reach out to you afterwards.

In fact, I was contacted by a commercial pilot for another airline who was sitting in the cockpit of his airliner at SeaTac the night of the skyjacking and watched 305 as it sat off in the distance and listened to radio communication between the 305 pilots and the tower. This is because SeaTac was shut down during the incident and they couldn't depart.

He watched 305 depart SeaTac and was finally permitted to depart SeaTac about half an hour later. Ironically his flight was to PDX, therefore he was only about 30 minutes behind 305. He described the weather to me that night and mentioned nothing of the kind of winds that Bohar (sic?) mentions. In fact, the weather was described precisely as we understand it today, the weather arriving from the southwest which is typical.

This is important information, EU. Thanks. What was the guy's name?
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3922 on: February 28, 2021, 06:47:33 PM »
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I don't argue with people who think the moon landing was faked. I don't argue with people who think the earth is flat. I don't argue with people who think Trump won the election.

I also no longer argue with people who think the flight path was anything other than the central one. The physical, circumstantial, and documented evidence is utterly overwhelming, and any other suggestions aren't worth considering.

That said, there are many other logical scenarios that place the money on Tena Bar besides landing near there or Cooper walking there - particularly those involving the river.

You see Chaucer, this is the kind of statement that one would consider rude. After all, the inference in the first paragraph is clear.

Now, let me describe the extent of the evidence supporting the FBI Flight Path: A guy from the Air Force hands the FBI a map a few days after the skyjacking and says "Here's the flight path."

There you go. That's it. Very compelling.

The problem is that the physical evidence does not support the FBI Flight Path--Tena Bar, placard, fiberglass skirt. Oh, and a grand total of ZERO has been found along the FBI Flight Path where one would expect to find something.

As for the river and Tena Bar: Explain the June diatoms. Explain three individual packets. Explain the money being found 50 feet from the water's edge and several feet above the average river surface level. Oh, and explain the timing of the infallible FBI Flight Path.

Good luck.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3923 on: February 28, 2021, 06:59:43 PM »
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The air force tracked every plane that took off and was labeled shortly there after. they would know which planes were which.

The radar station was physically located on McChord AFB  and the Seattle ATC Center (and tower controllers) had information from that station displayed on their controller's screens.  Tracking the commercial flights was the responsibility of the Seattle ATC Center and the commercial flights used their onboard navigation equipment, which used the VORTAC system stations, to stay on V-23.  After about 60 miles from the McChord AFB radar station, the airliner's onboard equipment was probably more accurate than anything coming from the McChord radar.

It appears that the USAF had to go back to their raw radar data and no one bothered to talk to the Seattle ATC Center controllers.  This is where the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts could fill in a tremendous amount of very significant information.
 

Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3924 on: February 28, 2021, 07:10:21 PM »
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The air force tracked every plane that took off and was labeled shortly there after. they would know which planes were which.

The radar station was physically located on McChord AFB  and the Seattle ATC Center (and tower controllers) had information from that station displayed on their controller's screens.  Tracking the commercial flights was the responsibility of the Seattle ATC Center and the commercial flights used their onboard navigation equipment, which used the VORTAC system stations, to stay on V-23.  After about 60 miles from the McChord AFB radar station, the airliner's onboard equipment was probably more accurate than anything coming from the McChord radar.

It appears that the USAF had to go back to their raw radar data and no one bothered to talk to the Seattle ATC Center controllers.  This is where the Seattle ATC Center radio transcripts could fill in a tremendous amount of very significant information.

According to Ammerman, the radar station providing data displayed on his screen at Seattle ATC was located near Salem, OR. Moreover, the fact that the jet was only flying at 10K feet inhibited the data. Also, the target location variance when 305 was near Toledo he estimated would be about 15 miles. Meaning, the forward slash on the radar display on his screen represented a length of about 15 miles and the only thing he knew was that the jet was somewhere on that line. Near PDX, he estimated the variance was about 5 miles.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline haggarknew

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3925 on: February 28, 2021, 07:12:37 PM »
Would Portland's ATC be involved in tracking 305?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3926 on: February 28, 2021, 07:19:52 PM »
Well, the fiberglass was never confirmed being found. it explains a part was found, not a piece of one.

The placard has come under fire with no visible reason the placard was on 305. it was years later they claim it was missing? lots of flags here to consider before calling this evidence. you could easily build something that can't be built using this "evidence"

Down playing the Air Force is a little dramatic isn't it?

Tracking the commercial flights was the responsibility of the Seattle ATC Center

Yes, but it was also the Air Force who had to monitor every flight in the air which is about the same as Seattle, Portland or any other airport with radar and controllers. if the enemy came in they had to know where all the friendlies were so they would track or shoot them down.

Ammerman also agreed the path looked close, no? he also believes the dots on the transcripts are other transmissions not related to 305, correct?

I see the same amount of problems with any given path you try. that's my opinion...
 
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Offline EU

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3927 on: February 28, 2021, 07:20:49 PM »
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Would Portland's ATC be involved in tracking 305?

Portland does not have an ATC. Oakland is the next ATC south of Seattle.

That said, PDX does have a tower with radar.
Some men see things as they are, and ask why? I dream of things that never were, and ask why not?

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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3928 on: February 28, 2021, 07:21:08 PM »
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Would Portland's ATC be involved in tracking 305?

It depends. R99 doesn't believe so but they were flying into there airspace with a bomb. reports from radar operators back this up but is not believed by a few.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3929 on: February 28, 2021, 07:25:28 PM »
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Would Portland's ATC be involved in tracking 305?

Not likely.  The only way Portland would get involved would be if the airliner was landing at Portland, in which case the Seattle ATC Center controller would hand the airliner off to the Portland approach controller.

The Seattle ATC Center would have agreements with the various towers along the way about how to handle the transiting aircraft.  There is nothing to suggest that the hijacked airliner contacted any tower or other air traffic control function except the Seattle ATC and Oakland ATC Centers until it was handed off to the Reno approach controller.
 
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