Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 771642 times)

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2295 on: July 27, 2019, 06:56:16 PM »
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I contacted the author and just got her response...

"Hello,

Thank you for your email and your interest in my book, Amazing Flights and Flyers. I states clearly in the book (pp. 115-117) that I had personal telephone calls with Mr. Ammerman as well as a follow-up letter he wrote to me to explain some of the more technical aspects of his work in air traffic control the night of the hijacking. He told me I was the first (and possibly only) person who had ever contacted him about this experience (see last line, p. 117). His contact information was given to me by a tour guide (docent) at the Seattle Museum of Flight (whom I met when I myself worked at an aviation museum in Calgary). This fellow was a personal friend of Ammerman, and so I followed up.

The book is still in print and can be ordered through Amazon or the Canadian distributor, Alpine Book Peddlers of Canmore, Alberta.

Best regards,

Shirlee Smith Matheson"

So? WTF is that supposed to mean?  :rofl:

I dont know or care who was 1st or 2nd or third or fourth. ...... where does R99 fit in? He talked to Ammerman too by email. Was he 14th?

Actually, I never contacted Ammerman but Georger did tell me about his contacts with him about 10 years ago.

Who knows for sure where R3 was located?  Frankly, I would assume that he was located at the Seattle ATC facility and probably only a few feet from R2.  Some of you would probably be surprised as to how much the ATC people used land telephone lines and remote transmitter/receiver sites.  At least some of the remote transmitter/receiver sites and their radio frequencies are listed on the FAA's IFR Enroute Charts.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2296 on: July 27, 2019, 08:10:36 PM »
The original Seattle Air Route Traffic Control Center was located at the Boeing Field
Administration Building in 1940 and control instructions were relayed to pilots via company phone
lines. In 1950, Seattle ARTCC moved to the Seattle Tacoma Airport (SeaTac) Administration
Building, where the first radio was commissioned in the facility allowing direct controller to pilot
communications. In 1962 the ARTCC moved from SeaTac to its current location in Auburn,
Washington. The new, larger building allowed for further expansion and new equipment.

open 24/7 and has never closed since 1962.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 08:21:34 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2297 on: July 28, 2019, 12:23:45 AM »
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I contacted the author and just got her response...

"Hello,

Thank you for your email and your interest in my book, Amazing Flights and Flyers. I states clearly in the book (pp. 115-117) that I had personal telephone calls with Mr. Ammerman as well as a follow-up letter he wrote to me to explain some of the more technical aspects of his work in air traffic control the night of the hijacking. He told me I was the first (and possibly only) person who had ever contacted him about this experience (see last line, p. 117). His contact information was given to me by a tour guide (docent) at the Seattle Museum of Flight (whom I met when I myself worked at an aviation museum in Calgary). This fellow was a personal friend of Ammerman, and so I followed up.

The book is still in print and can be ordered through Amazon or the Canadian distributor, Alpine Book Peddlers of Canmore, Alberta.

Best regards,

Shirlee Smith Matheson"

So? WTF is that supposed to mean?  :rofl:

I dont know or care who was 1st or 2nd or third or fourth. ...... where does R99 fit in? He talked to Ammerman too by email. Was he 14th?

Actually, I never contacted Ammerman but Georger did tell me about his contacts with him about 10 years ago.

Who knows for sure where R3 was located?  Frankly, I would assume that he was located at the Seattle ATC facility and probably only a few feet from R2.  Some of you would probably be surprised as to how much the ATC people used land telephone lines and remote transmitter/receiver sites.  At least some of the remote transmitter/receiver sites and their radio frequencies are listed on the FAA's IFR Enroute Charts.

I thought you exchanged emails with R2 ? Didnt I share his email adr with you so you and he could converse? I told Cliff to look for you.

Fly is really pushing this over at DZ - congratulating Shutter on his fine job and basically saying I am an idiot, as usual. He has not called me a liar - yet! But I would not count that out.  :rofl: Fly has yet to even identify his source or name the Matheson book, a fellow Canadian. For all anyone knows Flyjack and Matheson may be one-and-the-same person? For all we know Shutter, Flyjack, and Matheson have been comunicating for some time? And as usual, Flyjack has not admitted (yet) that Matheson makes any mistakes. Perhaps another Flyjack bankruptcy is just around the corner - who knows.

All that matters is whether Matheson's Ammerman report is accurate or not. Parts of it agree with my interview notes with Cliff - but parts do not agree. Neiher FLYJACK or Matheson even mention a T33 rendezvous at Lake Oswego, for example.  And as usual, that is the last thing FLYJACK (with capitol letters) is even concerned about at present, until he gets his zombie mileage he wants first, from his reports at DZ and the controversy he has stirred up again. FLYJACK might at least try to get Matheson to get the date of the hijacking straight! That would be a good place to start. EH?  ;)

Again, what matters here is whether Matheson's report for Ammerman is accurate or not.  All other considerations are secondary.

Matheson's fast reply to Shutter today seems to imply that she is concerned about the accuracy of her reporting.   

Lastly, there is also a possibility nobody has mentioned: Cliff's recollections may have changed over time? I tend to discount that because for one thing the Matheson book was copyrighted 2010, the same year I interviewed CA. I tend to doubt that Ammerman's recollections changed radically within one year? I am sure he knows the actual date of the hijacking, for example. How Matheson (and FLYJACK) got that wrong, who can say. Moreover, if they continue to stick to the wrong date ... then we do have a problemo!  ;)   

 
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 12:47:54 AM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2298 on: July 28, 2019, 01:08:09 AM »
I'm going to explain my action one more time for the record!

Approx. two days ago I seen a post made by Flyjack. I copied the page he posted and then posted it here. I added that error's were noticed while reading the document. comments were made about the document that one could consider negative. I, Shutter, a researcher took it upon myself to contact the author to see where and how she came about the claims on the page I provided from her book. I was specific with asking where and how she got the information regarding Ammerman. I didn't go into the other error's noted in the book nor did I ask if Ammerman had spoken to anyone previous to her contacting him directly. I then posted the email in it's entirety where she explains how she got the information.

I find it insulting to believe I'm working with the author or anyone else or trying to make someone out a liar. I'm usually pretty direct when it comes to something I don't believe. to go further it's rather ridiculous to believe Flyjack is Matheson. I really don't feel I need to explain this at all....

Now, the book clearly has statements from Ammerman. the author claims to have had several phone calls and a letter going into technical details along with statements from a longtime friend of Ammerman's. perhaps it was the first time being contacted from someone writing a book. who knows why he said she was the first. this was around 39 years after the fact. I would guess he's spoken to many over the years. perhaps he meant "publicly"

I'm here to find answers. I asked her and she answered. how the hell would I know she was going to make the comment of him speaking exclusively to her?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 01:26:35 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2299 on: July 28, 2019, 01:20:12 AM »
I am currently awaiting a third reply where I did go into detail asking about the error's on that page.

The date..November 27.
Takeoff time 7:44
Bag vs briefcase.

The last email was made late in the evening so I don't expect a reply until tomorrow.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2300 on: July 28, 2019, 02:20:23 AM »
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I am currently awaiting a third reply where I did go into detail asking about the error's on that page.

The date..November 27.
Takeoff time 7:44
Bag vs briefcase.

The last email was made late in the evening so I don't expect a reply until tomorrow.

There is no confusion over "bag" vs "briefcase. She uses both terms but in different places, for different reasons. She says Cooper had a bomb in his BRIEFCASE. She says that twice. Then she starts talking about "bags" passengers usually carried on and in that context she refers to Cooper's briefcase ... as a BAG! See the passages below.

Its this confusion in language that makes me wonder if the Canadian Matheson is the Canadian FLYJACK - they are both hung up on ordinary language!  I dont know - maybe all Canadians screw up the English language, but I doubt that. I think Matheson is a native American from some tribe. I base that on several things in her vita including her photos. I think FLYJACK is just a Frenchman - have no evidence of anything else so far unless you know something I dont. But I find no problem over bag vs briefcase in her writing, so far. See the passages below.

In a like manner I am going to break this down into manageable pieces I can compare with Ammerman notes. I am not going to jump to conclusions like FLYJACK always does!

I dont think Matheson intended this writing as a scholarly work on the Cooper hijacking - because it isn't! Just because FLYJACK is jumping through hoops over this does not mean we should, or Matheson intended this work to be a scholarly treatise either.

« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 02:27:11 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2301 on: July 28, 2019, 02:39:34 AM »
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I am currently awaiting a third reply where I did go into detail asking about the error's on that page.

The date..November 27.
Takeoff time 7:44
Bag vs briefcase.

The last email was made late in the evening so I don't expect a reply until tomorrow.

There is no confusion over "bag" vs "briefcase. She uses both terms but in different places, for different reasons. She says Cooper had a bomb in his BRIEFCASE. She says that twice. Then she starts talking about "bags" passengers usually carried on and in that context she refers to Cooper's briefcase ... as a BAG! See the passages below.

Its this confusion in language that makes me wonder if the Canadian Matheson is the Canadian FLYJACK - they are both hung up on ordinary language!  I dont know - maybe all Canadians screw up the English language, but I doubt that. I think Matheson is a native American from some tribe. I base that on several things in her vita including her photos. I think FLYJACK is just a Frenchman - have no evidence of anything else so far unless you know something I dont. But I find no problem over bag vs briefcase in her writing, so far. See the passages below.

In a like manner I am going to break this down into manageable pieces I can compare with Ammerman notes. I am not going to jump to conclusions like FLYJACK always does!

I dont think Matheson intended this writing as a scholarly work on the Cooper hijacking - because it isn't! Just because FLYJACK is jumping through hoops over this does not mean we should, or Matheson intended this work to be a scholarly treatise either.

I think the "briefcase" is described as being an "attache case".  That is, it had a box type rigid construction. 

In his interview with the FBI in Reno, Captain Scott stated that he did not see or talk to Cooper.  So can we at least put that silly story to rest.  Whoever started that story in the first place probably started other false ones as well. 
 

Offline Lynn

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2302 on: July 28, 2019, 02:41:50 AM »
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I am currently awaiting a third reply where I did go into detail asking about the error's on that page.

The date..November 27.
Takeoff time 7:44
Bag vs briefcase.

The last email was made late in the evening so I don't expect a reply until tomorrow.

There is no confusion over "bag" vs "briefcase. She uses both terms but in different places, for different reasons. She says Cooper had a bomb in his BRIEFCASE. She says that twice. Then she starts talking about "bags" passengers usually carried on and in that context she refers to Cooper's briefcase ... as a BAG! See the passages below.

Its this confusion in language that makes me wonder if the Canadian Matheson is the Canadian FLYJACK - they are both hung up on ordinary language!  I dont know - maybe all Canadians screw up the English language, but I doubt that. I think Matheson is a native American from some tribe. I base that on several things in her vita including her photos. I think FLYJACK is just a Frenchman - have no evidence of anything else so far unless you know something I dont. But I find no problem over bag vs briefcase in her writing, so far. See the passages below.

In a like manner I am going to break this down into manageable pieces I can compare with Ammerman notes. I am not going to jump to conclusions like FLYJACK always does!

I dont think Matheson intended this writing as a scholarly work on the Cooper hijacking - because it isn't! Just because FLYJACK is jumping through hoops over this does not mean we should, or Matheson intended this work to be a scholarly treatise either.

I think the "briefcase" is described as being an "attache case".  That is, it had a box type rigid construction. 

In his interview with the FBI in Reno, Captain Scott stated that he did not see or talk to Cooper.  So can we at least put that silly story to rest.  Whoever started that story in the first place probably started other false ones as well.
I have both a Samsonite briefcase and an attache case. The briefcase is larger, but I think a lot of people use the terms interchangeably. And you're right, Scott's statement is quite brief and explicitly states he never saw Cooper and could not identify him.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2303 on: July 28, 2019, 03:05:45 AM »
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I am currently awaiting a third reply where I did go into detail asking about the error's on that page.

The date..November 27.
Takeoff time 7:44
Bag vs briefcase.

The last email was made late in the evening so I don't expect a reply until tomorrow.

There is no confusion over "bag" vs "briefcase. She uses both terms but in different places, for different reasons. She says Cooper had a bomb in his BRIEFCASE. She says that twice. Then she starts talking about "bags" passengers usually carried on and in that context she refers to Cooper's briefcase ... as a BAG! See the passages below.

Its this confusion in language that makes me wonder if the Canadian Matheson is the Canadian FLYJACK - they are both hung up on ordinary language!  I dont know - maybe all Canadians screw up the English language, but I doubt that. I think Matheson is a native American from some tribe. I base that on several things in her vita including her photos. I think FLYJACK is just a Frenchman - have no evidence of anything else so far unless you know something I dont. But I find no problem over bag vs briefcase in her writing, so far. See the passages below.

In a like manner I am going to break this down into manageable pieces I can compare with Ammerman notes. I am not going to jump to conclusions like FLYJACK always does!

I dont think Matheson intended this writing as a scholarly work on the Cooper hijacking - because it isn't! Just because FLYJACK is jumping through hoops over this does not mean we should, or Matheson intended this work to be a scholarly treatise either.

I think the "briefcase" is described as being an "attache case".  That is, it had a box type rigid construction. 

In his interview with the FBI in Reno, Captain Scott stated that he did not see or talk to Cooper.  So can we at least put that silly story to rest.  Whoever started that story in the first place probably started other false ones as well.
I have both a Samsonite briefcase and an attache case. The briefcase is larger, but I think a lot of people use the terms interchangeably. And you're right, Scott's statement is quite brief and explicitly states he never saw Cooper and could not identify him.

I have two Samsonite attache cases (using my definition of an attache case above).  One is relatively slim and the other is quite a bit larger.  Both were acquired about 1970 so they are about 50 years old and have quite a few miles on them.  And they are still in very good condition.
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2304 on: July 28, 2019, 09:59:05 AM »
Somehow I was focused on "nestled in his bag" . okay, this part was wrong that I stated. is she stating the dynamite was in a bag inside the briefcase?

Page 112 states this occurred on November 27, and the plane departed at 4:35 pm. transcripts show around 3:00 pm. 4:35 would only allow 25 minutes to meet Cooper's demands.

Page 114 has the plane in the air at 7:44.

Page 115 states cooper jumped at 8:10....20 minutes after takeoff. she goes on to explain two separate bumps and two separate trims. she questions these events to possibly being the airflow causing the bumps.

Page 115 starts discussing Ammerman and November 27 is brought up again. Ammerman starts his recollection with an event he states occurred on November 23, 1971. at the bottom of page 115 she states this occurred in a phone interview followed by a letter dated February 6, 2004. she once again writes that Ammerman was on duty November 27th.

Important factors:
The book appears to have been in the making years before publication. her work surrounding Ammerman dates back to 2004 and the book was released in 2010. anyone speaking with Ammerman later than 2004 is irrelevant as it hasn't occurred yet. she might be right that she was the first to speak with him.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 09:59:28 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2305 on: July 28, 2019, 10:39:45 AM »
According to Ammerman he was never interviewed by the FBI. it's possible the FBI got all the information needed through upper management. the documents we have in the 302's surround Portland radar operators.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2306 on: July 28, 2019, 02:36:04 PM »
I have just received word from a source that Matheson did her interviews with Ammerman clear back in 2004. That is before Dropzone even existed, and everyone was at Web Sleuths! My interviews were not until 2010 at the earliest.

Matheson references this fact in her book saying:

"“In my 30 years experience as an air traffic controller nothing ever happened like that before or since  -  a report of someone dropping flares from an aircraft”, he stated in a telephone interview with the author and in a follow-up letter dated February 6, 2004.

A text copy of the book will be prepared tomorrow but it will only be for my personal use, and I will not share it with anyone. Make your own!
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 02:38:41 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2307 on: July 28, 2019, 02:38:13 PM »
Correct....and noted this morning...

Quote
Important factors:
The book appears to have been in the making years before publication. her work surrounding Ammerman dates back to 2004 and the book was released in 2010. anyone speaking with Ammerman later than 2004 is irrelevant as it hasn't occurred yet. she might be right that she was the first to speak with him.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2308 on: July 28, 2019, 02:40:51 PM »
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Correct....and noted this morning...

Quote
Important factors:
The book appears to have been in the making years before publication. her work surrounding Ammerman dates back to 2004 and the book was released in 2010. anyone speaking with Ammerman later than 2004 is irrelevant as it hasn't occurred yet. she might be right that she was the first to speak with him.

Is this from the famous FLYJACK?  :rofl:  Who cares. It does not matter!

Who invented the rock first? Its what the rock is composed of that matters.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2309 on: July 28, 2019, 02:42:34 PM »
It doesn't matter because you spoke with Ammerman after she interviewed him. her reference no longer matters since others have spoke with him after her contact.

Why is this such an issue?
« Last Edit: July 28, 2019, 02:51:24 PM by Shutter »