Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 757226 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2280 on: July 27, 2019, 09:23:39 AM »
The radar operator was Clifford Ammerman....I never said he wrote the book. I also stated the book has error's.

It states he was working that evening "November 27"
Takeoff time "7:44"
Cooper jumped 24 minutes after takeoff.
Cooper had a bag vs a briefcase for the bomb.

Clifford wasn't at the airport or the tower. he was at Seattle center. that's where the operator's were and are today. ARTCC..
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 10:13:50 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2281 on: July 27, 2019, 09:47:36 AM »
Snowmman first brings this up back in November of 2018.

Here's some detail about the chase planes, from Clifford Ammerman who was working radar control at Sea-Tac the night of the hijack. He was employed by the FAA.
I don't think Clifford Ammerman has been named before.

Ammerman controlled the F-106's that trailed Flight 305. It seems like the T-33 arrived just north of portland, and the F-106's left the immediate trail then to the T-33.

Notably, the F-106's weren't getting control from the SAGE center.

It's interesting the T-33/F-106 handoff occurred just north of Portland, because it means maybe they were switching the trailing planes around at the time Cooper jumped?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2282 on: July 27, 2019, 04:17:37 PM »
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Snowmman first brings this up back in November of 2018.

Here's some detail about the chase planes, from Clifford Ammerman who was working radar control at Sea-Tac the night of the hijack. He was employed by the FAA.
I don't think Clifford Ammerman has been named before.

Ammerman controlled the F-106's that trailed Flight 305. It seems like the T-33 arrived just north of portland, and the F-106's left the immediate trail then to the T-33.

Notably, the F-106's weren't getting control from the SAGE center.

It's interesting the T-33/F-106 handoff occurred just north of Portland, because it means maybe they were switching the trailing planes around at the time Cooper jumped?

Im at a  loss for what to say! [Snowmman first brings this up back in November of 2018. I don't think Clifford Ammerman has been named before. ]

I broke the news about the flare story and R2 clear back in 2010 at Dropzone. R2 is Cliff Ammerman. For all I know it was my post(s) that alerted this author to interview Cliff Ammerman and include the flare story in her book. I had interviewed R2 and R3 several months earlier and there are a number of people who know this (Smith/R99/Ckret, etc)

The author says she interviewed R2 also, and even has a letter from him. I have emails from R2. The problem is: I have a different version of the flare story than the author is giving, who did what when, etc. The flares were being dropped from a plane in the southern Eugene area approx a week before the Cooper hijacking. R2 explained to me that after 305 had cleared Eugene airspace and things settled down, he (R2) called R3 at Eugene and asked if he thought the 305 hijacker might be the same person dropping flares from the week before. Both controllers were aware that formal documentation and fillings had been made in this matter, with the FAA, law enforcement, the FBI, etc.  R2 told me that both he and R3 agreed it would only be a matter of time until this issue came up again given the hijacking in progress, and this would probably be invested further - as far as anyone could investigate it. Then as we know, several passengers on the plane were later shown photos of possible suspects, and were told that a large percentage of the photos they were being shown were of people 'in the Eugene area'.

The author says nothing about the "Janet fire in the sky" story at Vancouver, the day of the hijacking. I asked R2 if he had ever heard of the Janet Story and he said he hadn't, and he asked for details which I provided by email. R2 said he thought the story was 'interesting but nothing further developed from this, that I am aware of.

Pages 117 to 135 are missing in the Google version of this book, without purchase. Who knows what the author says there...

I will address other issues later.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 04:27:47 PM by georger »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2283 on: July 27, 2019, 04:31:51 PM »
My comment is in reference to this thread. I'm simply going by what I find in basic searches. I've seen a lot of posts by you stating only R2 or R anything vs a name. according to the statement in the book Ammerman claims the flare incident occurred on the 23rd.

sorting things out is a process.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2284 on: July 27, 2019, 04:38:22 PM »
I contacted the author and just got her response...

"Hello,

Thank you for your email and your interest in my book, Amazing Flights and Flyers. I states clearly in the book (pp. 115-117) that I had personal telephone calls with Mr. Ammerman as well as a follow-up letter he wrote to me to explain some of the more technical aspects of his work in air traffic control the night of the hijacking. He told me I was the first (and possibly only) person who had ever contacted him about this experience (see last line, p. 117). His contact information was given to me by a tour guide (docent) at the Seattle Museum of Flight (whom I met when I myself worked at an aviation museum in Calgary). This fellow was a personal friend of Ammerman, and so I followed up.

The book is still in print and can be ordered through Amazon or the Canadian distributor, Alpine Book Peddlers of Canmore, Alberta.

Best regards,

Shirlee Smith Matheson"
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2285 on: July 27, 2019, 04:52:29 PM »
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My comment is in reference to this thread. I'm simply going by what I find in basic searches. I've seen a lot of posts by you stating only R2 or R anything vs a name. according to the statement in the book Ammerman claims the flare incident occurred on the 23rd.

sorting things out is a process.

There is no way "in hell" R3 would call R2 asking about the flare incident from the week before _ during the same period of time R3 is still dealing with 305! It was R2 'off duty' so to speak. R3 was still engaged! Cliff was very firm that he "waited until things had settled down and 305 had left Eugene air space, before he called R3 up and brought up the flare incident.

Cliff's name was finally given long before 2018! Look it up at Dropzone.

Also, what does your statement mean "Notably, the F-106's weren't getting control from the SAGE center." ?
I dont know what you mean or are implying. Who is the "Sage Center"?  The author clearly says: "Ammerman at Seattle Center was now one of those charged with keeping the F-106 fighters five miles in trail, . . .     

 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2286 on: July 27, 2019, 04:54:34 PM »
Quote
Also, what does your statement mean "Notably, the F-106's weren't getting control from the SAGE center

It sounds like the fighters locked onto the target and not the Sage system itself. the SAGE might of just tracked it from McChord.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2287 on: July 27, 2019, 04:55:12 PM »
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I contacted the author and just got her response...

"Hello,

Thank you for your email and your interest in my book, Amazing Flights and Flyers. I states clearly in the book (pp. 115-117) that I had personal telephone calls with Mr. Ammerman as well as a follow-up letter he wrote to me to explain some of the more technical aspects of his work in air traffic control the night of the hijacking. He told me I was the first (and possibly only) person who had ever contacted him about this experience (see last line, p. 117). His contact information was given to me by a tour guide (docent) at the Seattle Museum of Flight (whom I met when I myself worked at an aviation museum in Calgary). This fellow was a personal friend of Ammerman, and so I followed up.

The book is still in print and can be ordered through Amazon or the Canadian distributor, Alpine Book Peddlers of Canmore, Alberta.

Best regards,

Shirlee Smith Matheson"

So? WTF is that supposed to mean?  :rofl:

I dont know or care who was 1st or 2nd or third or fourth. ...... where does R99 fit in? He talked to Ammerman too by email. Was he 14th?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 04:59:19 PM by georger »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2288 on: July 27, 2019, 04:58:34 PM »
Quote
So? WTF is that supposed to mean?

I guess nothing? I read your statement of the book compiling of articles and things taking from the internet. I thought I would try and contact her and ask..

pretty dumb, right?
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2289 on: July 27, 2019, 05:04:48 PM »
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Quote
So? WTF is that supposed to mean?

I guess nothing? I read your statement of the book compiling of articles and things taking from the internet. I thought I would try and contact her and ask..

pretty dumb, right?

She didnt say anything of substance.

This author is getting some things correctly, and some things wrong. She gets the date of the hijacking wrong! Period. Or we are all idiots and she is the only truth teller in the whole Cooper hijacking.

This is unfortunate. I had hoped to learn something new about the Cooper hijacking today. I guess not!

If this author cant even get the date of the hijacking correct then that may impeach her whole book! Maybe everything she is saying is wrong?

I can tell you R3 did NOT call R2 while he was in the middle of handling 305 and ask about the flare incident the week before! And R3 was not sitting on a buffalo either!

 
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 05:11:49 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2290 on: July 27, 2019, 05:11:08 PM »
I'm confused, and concerned. Ammerman never spoke to anyone before Matheson? Really? What about Georger?

What's going on?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2291 on: July 27, 2019, 05:12:40 PM »
I don't give a shit what you think....

I simply stated things I read that are inaccurate and posted them!   

Takeoff time 7:44
Cooper had a bag vs briefcase
November 27.

I posted the page for people to discuss and agree or disagree with what was posted. all of the sudden I'm attacked for making comments about the page. "sage center" you need to ask Snowmman about that. I didn't post that either.

I was curious to how she got the knowledge about Ammerman and asked. I get a load of shit about that. I think I'll just go in the background again.

Shutter
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2292 on: July 27, 2019, 05:19:50 PM »
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I'm confused, and concerned. Ammerman never spoke to anyone before Matheson? Really? What about Georger?

What's going on?

I have no idea. My feeling is this lady picked up on our conversations at DZ and went off and wrote a book, or included the Cooper jacking in a book she was already writing? The timing is weird. Was she ever at DZ? Did she ever post at DZ? Is she an aviation writer? I guess she is according to her vita.

All I do know is she says the hijacking was on "the eve of Amercan Thanksgiving Saturday November 27th" !   

The hijacking was on Nov 24th which was a Wednesday!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2019, 05:31:17 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2293 on: July 27, 2019, 05:27:41 PM »
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I don't give a shit what you think....

I simply stated things I read that are inaccurate and posted them!   

Takeoff time 7:44
Cooper had a bag vs briefcase
November 27.

I posted the page for people to discuss and agree or disagree with what was posted. all of the sudden I'm attacked for making comments about the page. "sage center" you need to ask Snowmman about that. I didn't post that either.

I was curious to how she got the knowledge about Ammerman and asked. I get a load of shit about that. I think I'll just go in the background again.

Shutter

All I am saying is her versions of things I have are wrong. Ive already said she is making mistakes (no expert would make) You point her other mistakes. I agree. She is supposed to be some known aviation author? We basically agree!

I dont know who interviewed Ammerman first second or third etc... I have no idea! It doesnt matter to me. But I do know what CA told me!

And even with her mistakes which no real author would make, she does describe what R2 did in his handling of 305, F106, T33 ...... and THAT is very important and interesting ....... but can you trust it based on her other claims and mistake? I just dont know. That is ALL I am saying.     
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #2294 on: July 27, 2019, 05:40:45 PM »
Author Shirlee Smith Matheson, Children's Writer.
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Shirlee Smith Matheson Canadian award-winning author of real life adventure fiction and nonfiction books for juvenile, young adult, adult readers.

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