Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.7%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.5%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
13 (21%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.6%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (37.1%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 787550 times)

Offline DBfan57

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
  • Thanked: 21 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7890 on: June 30, 2022, 09:11:35 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The main problem I see with the known suspects is they have been on television, newspapers, websites, all over the place for witnesses to see them. not one has come forward to say it's him or really close.

I believe once they actually see a photo of Cooper it would trigger the memory. I remember seeing my old middle school year book I found on classmates.com..I had memory of a lot of them but it came flooding back once I seen there photo's again. you can forget a lot of details until it is presented right in front of you. a lot were already shot down in the first year after the crime by the crew.

Blevins loves to play the memory game to keep his suspect alive on the internet. I'm sure all three of the stews have come across something related to Kenny. Tina shot down Rackstraw and it appears to mean nothing?

I don't believe Cooper has surfaced in any of the suspects...
In the case of Mucklow, why couldnt a voice trigger a memory?  Even if its recorded and the person is deceased?
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9298
  • Thanked: 1020 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7891 on: June 30, 2022, 08:49:36 PM »
It's possible, they played audio of Rackstraw for he to hear..
 

Offline Parrotheadvol

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 593
  • Thanked: 127 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7892 on: June 30, 2022, 09:43:56 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
The main problem I see with the known suspects is they have been on television, newspapers, websites, all over the place for witnesses to see them. not one has come forward to say it's him or really close.

I believe once they actually see a photo of Cooper it would trigger the memory. I remember seeing my old middle school year book I found on classmates.com..I had memory of a lot of them but it came flooding back once I seen there photo's again. you can forget a lot of details until it is presented right in front of you. a lot were already shot down in the first year after the crime by the crew.

Blevins loves to play the memory game to keep his suspect alive on the internet. I'm sure all three of the stews have come across something related to Kenny. Tina shot down Rackstraw and it appears to mean nothing?

I don't believe Cooper has surfaced in any of the suspects...
In the case of Mucklow, why couldnt a voice trigger a memory?  Even if its recorded and the person is deceased?

It may, but I doubt a voice recognition would be enough to confirm a suspect. There was a witness that took a phone call from the Zodiac Killer that later identified a voice recording from a "suspect" as being the same voice, but it amounted to nothing.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4365
  • Thanked: 465 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7893 on: July 01, 2022, 07:44:14 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Him choosing the worse parachute and one that was seen shut suddenly becomes "no he chose the more rugged parachute and plfft, who the hell is Earl Cossey, anyway?" Rather than looking at it objectively and seeing that his parachute choice indicated a guy with limited parachuting experience.

I think you're a bit misinformed on this part. It sounds like he asked for two complete freefall rigs, mains and reserves. What they gave him for 'back' rigs were not mains, but two pilot emergency bailout rigs. That makes whatever front reserves they gave him irrelevant, because the bailout rigs do not have the D-rings to attach them. The reason they don't have the D-rings is because the bailout rigs ARE reserves. If one of the canopies was steerable over non, or if one was bigger, it might make it a slightly better choice. But if the two back rigs they gave him were indeed Hayden's two bailout rigs, then it was basically a coin toss over which one to take. There was not a 'bad choice' involved.

Dude Man, I see that you're embracing the Earl Cossey narrative on NB-6s and NB-8 parachutes. What do you think of the packing cards that indicate the back chutes were Pioneer/Steinthals with 26-foot conical canopies? One card was reportedly found in Reno, and the second I photographed at Norman's place when he showed me his "not used" back chute.
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7894 on: July 01, 2022, 06:49:39 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Dude Man, I see that you're embracing the Earl Cossey narrative on NB-6s and NB-8 parachutes. What do you think of the packing cards that indicate the back chutes were Pioneer/Steinthals with 26-foot conical canopies? One card was reportedly found in Reno, and the second I photographed at Norman's place when he showed me his "not used" back chute.

Actually I'm not. I'm going with the idea that the best evidence indicates that the two back chutes given to Cooper were Hayden's two bailout rigs, which I believe you, Flyjack (and even Blevins!) all agree on. That puts both rigs as bailout rigs, meaning no D-rings, and similar (if not identical) reserve canopies, which means little to no 'performance' or steerability, and therefore no real advantage in which one to choose.

If one is to believe Cossey's stories, then that opens up more possibilities. If the other chute that Cooper used was one of Cossey's, then which one? If it was his bailout rig with the modified ripcord location that he used to put static-line students out, then the 'choice' (non)advantage stays the same. If it was a sport main, which I think he at some point indicated, then that would actually be a better choice for Cooper, because it would have a canopy with better flight performance and steerability, which would give Cooper better control of his landing spot.
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7895 on: July 01, 2022, 07:11:43 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
Really, he specified all that information on what chutes to bring aboard the plane? ... Or is that just pure speculation?

I'll call it 'educated speculation' based on what is known. Cooper asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes. What does that mean? Well, in those days parachute gear was such that the mains were in the back pack, and the reserves were in separate containers that mounted on the front. The main structural attachment was that the reserve containers had clips which attached to D-rings sewn into the main harness. That is not speculation, that is just how parachute rigs were in those days. So when he asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes, I think it's reasonable to surmise that he was asking for two complete rigs.

But what they gave him...  They did give him two front reserves, one of which was supposedly a non-functional training dummy. But the evidence indicates that the two back parachutes were not mains, but pilot emergency bailout rigs belonging to Norman Hayden. That would make what I said to you and repeated to Bruce accurate.

The evidence for that, I think Bruce could detail that better than I, or if you did a search on dropzone, I think Flyjack has posted supporting documents there.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4365
  • Thanked: 465 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7896 on: July 01, 2022, 09:52:41 PM »
I've never heard of the Pioneer/Steinthal package as a "bailout" rig. I suppose it is in the sense of practicality when one is attempting to save one's life, but still...

In contrast, the NB-6s and 8s are often described as "emergency" parachutes and "bailout rigs." In the strictest sense, all parachutes are "emergency bailout rigs" when one uses them to leave a crippled airplane.

Regardless, to address your specific point, there were no "D" rings on the Pioneer/Steinthal that I saw at Norman's. I strongly suspect that the "used" chute was similarly configured.

As for steerabiity, I'm with 377 on this point. The safest way down in a darkened forest is straight down, and not trying to steer anywhere and putting 10-15 mph of directional speed into the equation. Bumping into tree trunks laterally is not preferred in my view. Hence, a 26-foot conical is satisfactory.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2022, 10:00:45 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1695
  • Thanked: 195 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7897 on: July 01, 2022, 11:36:47 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've never heard of the Pioneer/Steinthal package as a "bailout" rig. I suppose it is in the sense of practicality when one is attempting to save one's life, but still...

In contrast, the NB-6s and 8s are often described as "emergency" parachutes and "bailout rigs." In the strictest sense, all parachutes are "emergency bailout rigs" when one uses them to leave a crippled airplane.

Regardless, to address your specific point, there were no "D" rings on the Pioneer/Steinthal that I saw at Norman's. I strongly suspect that the "used" chute was similarly configured.

As for steerabiity, I'm with 377 on this point. The safest way down in a darkened forest is straight down, and not trying to steer anywhere and putting 10-15 mph of directional speed into the equation. Bumping into tree trunks laterally is not preferred in my view. Hence, a 26-foot conical is satisfactory.

But Bruce, the canopy that is in the Hayden parachute that was returned, and is now on display at the WSHM, is NOT a 26-foot conical canopy.  It is simply too bulky to be a 26-foot conical since the 26-footer is prized for being a small pack.  I owned a 26-foot conical rig in 1971 and if you want to see what it looked like there are pictures of one on Sluggo's site which is now somewhere on this site also.

377 reportedly used a 26-foot conical canopy as a reserve chute at one point and came down on it once or twice.  So it could be packed in the same belly reserve container as a normal twill reserve canopy.

The canopy in the returned Hayden back pack is obviously a 28-foot canopy and, in all probability, so was the canopy in the back pack that Cooper used.
 

Offline dudeman17

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 322
  • Thanked: 99 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7898 on: July 02, 2022, 12:13:54 AM »
There are a number of things there that are a matter of semantics and particulars. I'm not a rigger* and certainly wasn't in '71 (I started jumping in '79, and while piggyback rigs and square mains were by then prevalent for experienced jumpers, students still learned on the old 'gutter gear' type that was around in Cooper's day), so I'm not up on the different details of those rigs. My terminology is in differentiating between 'mains' meant for intentional jumps, which would require reserves and have the D-rings to attach them, and emergency rigs for pilots (or passengers/crew) who do not intend to jump but might have to. Hayden was not a jumper, but was an aerobatic pilot and therefore was required to wear one while doing that type of flying. Those rigs are reserves, which use reserve type canopies and must be packed and maintained by a rigger.

"Pioneer/Steinthal" - Pioneer was a company unto itself and I believe at times made both containers and canopies. Steinthal was a different manufacturer, and I could be mistaken, but the way I remember reading those documents, it sounded like they made that 'second' canopy, which was an 'integral' part of the system, that I can only conclude was the pilot chute (and the 24' rather than 24" was likely a typo).

I personally would want a steerable canopy, because that could make the difference between indeed landing in trees versus an open field next to them. A reserve type canopy that had steerability would likely only have about 2-4 mph to work with, while a sport main of that era would have maybe 6-12 or so. Depends on the type and the weight of the jumper hanging under it.

Any of the reserve canopies, including the 26' conical, might have no steerability, or it might have minimal drive slots, or it might have a 4-line release. My first reserve ride was also on a 26' Navy conical, and it had drive slots. That thing was 4 years older than I was! Was packed in an early piggyback rig.

*They don't just bestow rigger or instructor ratings on people at certain levels of experience. Ratings are things you take courses for if you're interested in the job. I was never interested in packing reserves or sewing repairs, so I never went for a rigger's rating.

-------

Has anyone asked the museum recently about checking out that rig? The rigger I referred Shutter to is the same rigger who he and his son did the re-creation jump in that last TV show you appeared in. He has all the creds the museum would need to be comfortable with letting him handle it.
 

Offline JimmyCalhoun1991

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
  • Thanked: 16 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7899 on: July 02, 2022, 01:26:24 AM »
Howdy y'all,

Have been posting more than ever before lately, apologies for that. However, I wanted to share a news article I recently dug up. This is with our long-discussed ticketing agent, who appears to have been a key part of the sketch artist's rendering. Note how he states the "bing crosby" sketch does not look like him very much. Lovely. I noticed his account sounds a lot like Florence Schaffner's Unsolved Mysteries interview. Had to post as small file. Cheers.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4365
  • Thanked: 465 times
    • The Mountain News
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7900 on: July 02, 2022, 03:14:04 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've never heard of the Pioneer/Steinthal package as a "bailout" rig. I suppose it is in the sense of practicality when one is attempting to save one's life, but still...

In contrast, the NB-6s and 8s are often described as "emergency" parachutes and "bailout rigs." In the strictest sense, all parachutes are "emergency bailout rigs" when one uses them to leave a crippled airplane.

Regardless, to address your specific point, there were no "D" rings on the Pioneer/Steinthal that I saw at Norman's. I strongly suspect that the "used" chute was similarly configured.

As for steerabiity, I'm with 377 on this point. The safest way down in a darkened forest is straight down, and not trying to steer anywhere and putting 10-15 mph of directional speed into the equation. Bumping into tree trunks laterally is not preferred in my view. Hence, a 26-foot conical is satisfactory.

But Bruce, the canopy that is in the Hayden parachute that was returned, and is now on display at the WSHM, is NOT a 26-foot conical canopy.  It is simply too bulky to be a 26-foot conical since the 26-footer is prized for being a small pack.  I owned a 26-foot conical rig in 1971 and if you want to see what it looked like there are pictures of one on Sluggo's site which is now somewhere on this site also.

377 reportedly used a 26-foot conical canopy as a reserve chute at one point and came down on it once or twice.  So it could be packed in the same belly reserve container as a normal twill reserve canopy.

The canopy in the returned Hayden back pack is obviously a 28-foot canopy and, in all probability, so was the canopy in the back pack that Cooper used.

So the packing cards are incorrect?
 

Offline DBfan57

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
  • Thanked: 21 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7901 on: July 02, 2022, 07:22:24 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I've never heard of the Pioneer/Steinthal package as a "bailout" rig. I suppose it is in the sense of practicality when one is attempting to save one's life, but still...

In contrast, the NB-6s and 8s are often described as "emergency" parachutes and "bailout rigs." In the strictest sense, all parachutes are "emergency bailout rigs" when one uses them to leave a crippled airplane.

Regardless, to address your specific point, there were no "D" rings on the Pioneer/Steinthal that I saw at Norman's. I strongly suspect that the "used" chute was similarly configured.

As for steerabiity, I'm with 377 on this point. The safest way down in a darkened forest is straight down, and not trying to steer anywhere and putting 10-15 mph of directional speed into the equation. Bumping into tree trunks laterally is not preferred in my view. Hence, a 26-foot conical is satisfactory.

But Bruce, the canopy that is in the Hayden parachute that was returned, and is now on display at the WSHM, is NOT a 26-foot conical canopy.  It is simply too bulky to be a 26-foot conical since the 26-footer is prized for being a small pack.  I owned a 26-foot conical rig in 1971 and if you want to see what it looked like there are pictures of one on Sluggo's site which is now somewhere on this site also.

377 reportedly used a 26-foot conical canopy as a reserve chute at one point and came down on it once or twice.  So it could be packed in the same belly reserve container as a normal twill reserve canopy.

The canopy in the returned Hayden back pack is obviously a 28-foot canopy and, in all probability, so was the canopy in the back pack that Cooper used.

So the packing cards are incorrect?
Bruce.  Did they ever catch whoever murdered Cossey?  Or learn why?  Who robs a parachute company? For what?
 

Offline JAG

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 149
  • Thanked: 55 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7902 on: July 02, 2022, 09:33:48 AM »
For reference in the discussion, I believe most have seen these, but figured I would post them anyway.  These are from the WSHM.  For the reserve -- I circled what look like clips, are these what would be used to connect to the D-Rings ?  Also R99, is this the parachute you are saying looks too bulky to be the 26 foot conical ?
« Last Edit: July 02, 2022, 09:36:11 AM by JAG »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9298
  • Thanked: 1020 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7903 on: July 02, 2022, 03:00:43 PM »
If you look at the reverse picture on the pink chute photo's Tom has you can see the large clips to attach the reserve. what you have circled connects to the container..

..
« Last Edit: July 02, 2022, 03:22:54 PM by Shutter »
 
The following users thanked this post: JAG

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9298
  • Thanked: 1020 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7904 on: July 02, 2022, 03:20:00 PM »
T-7a front chute on Ebay

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
 
The following users thanked this post: JAG