Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (9.7%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.5%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.2%)
50% Cooper lived
13 (21%)
75% Cooper lived
14 (22.6%)
100 Cooper lived
23 (37.1%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 787494 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7920 on: July 10, 2022, 04:36:51 PM »
The $250K in tens and twenties that the FBI had stashed at SeaFirst bank is an essential element in the investigation. Did Cooper know that the feds had ready access to $230K in twenties? If so, his demand for $200,000 seems remarkably astute and well-informed - he got a lot of money at a weight he could manage, and in a timely fashion. Otherwise, he was extremely lucky. Note: the extra $20K was in tens.

So, we are looking for a guy who knew more about flying a 727 for a parachute jump than the pilots or anyone at Flight Ops at NWO, AND knew about the money stash, AND came from a place that had titanium, stainless steel, and rare earth minerals floating about. Anybody still wanna bet the ranch on McCoy, Duane Weber, et al....
« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 04:59:08 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7921 on: July 11, 2022, 10:48:49 AM »
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The $250K in tens and twenties that the FBI had stashed at SeaFirst bank is an essential element in the investigation. Did Cooper know that the feds had ready access to $230K in twenties? If so, his demand for $200,000 seems remarkably astute and well-informed - he got a lot of money at a weight he could manage, and in a timely fashion. Otherwise, he was extremely lucky. Note: the extra $20K was in tens.

So, we are looking for a guy who knew more about flying a 727 for a parachute jump than the pilots or anyone at Flight Ops at NWO, AND knew about the money stash, AND came from a place that had titanium, stainless steel, and rare earth minerals floating about. Anybody still wanna bet the ranch on McCoy, Duane Weber, et al....

In the Robb Headdy hijacking they had to get the money from a casino because the banks were closed.  If someone demands a ransom, do they usually know where the money is coming from?  $200,000 was a lot of money, but certainly available.  Seems like a lot of extra planning on Cooper's part to know where the money would come from.

 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7922 on: July 11, 2022, 03:16:14 PM »
Interesting story about old buried cash being found recently in NJ.  No, it's not Cooper's, but kind of amazing the condition it was in, granted it appeared to be buried in a jar/container underneath the foundation of a house, so it apparently wasn't exposed to moisture.  Also, it was roller up in scroll format so probably protected it more as well.

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ps
if you hit a pay wall following the link, I found that when I went to the website directly, it was free to read the entire article.
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7923 on: July 11, 2022, 11:43:09 PM »
I never really pay too much attention to the suspect interviews in the 302s because there are simply way too many redactions to be any real value.  And if they are occasionally interesting, the page ends in the middle of a paragraph and the next page of the 302 is a completely different topic and it leaves you hanging.

However, starting on page 186 and going to 188 of FBI part 72 is an interesting interview with what seems like an ex wife or ex girl friend of a suspect. The profile matches most of the witness descriptions of Cooper's physical traits and he was a paratrooper in the military.  Unfortunately, the birth date is redacted along with the name and other info as well.  But anyway, figured I would just post it.  I suppose he was eliminated, but that is not specified in this part as far as I have read as it just ends the interview.  I attached page 186. 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2022, 11:44:51 PM by JAG »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7924 on: July 12, 2022, 02:24:26 PM »
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Interesting story about old buried cash being found recently in NJ.  No, it's not Cooper's, but kind of amazing the condition it was in, granted it appeared to be buried in a jar/container underneath the foundation of a house, so it apparently wasn't exposed to moisture.  Also, it was roller up in scroll format so probably protected it more as well.

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ps
if you hit a pay wall following the link, I found that when I went to the website directly, it was free to read the entire article.
Lends credence to the idea that we have no idea what conditions the Cooper money was subjected to prior to discover nor for how long.
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Offline DBfan57

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7925 on: July 13, 2022, 01:35:52 PM »
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It's possible, they played audio of Rackstraw for he to hear..
First time I have ever heard they tried voice recognition
 

Offline TechnicalTim

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7926 on: July 15, 2022, 04:26:25 PM »
I've spent some more hours looking through the tie particle list and we seem to have a bit of a problem.
 There's 150 that are listed as 400 s/s, the trouble is 400s/s by its nature contains Mn, and in higher amounts than 300s/s.
So far i can only find 3 particles that contain Mn, and 2 of those are in of a much greater % than is allowable (100-350%). The remaining one particle does contain the correct amount, but it also contains aluminium which shouldn't be there and too much Si. Missing are P & S, which should be there. The Fe content varies wildly from 50-96% which is not right. Unfortunately it doesn't list carbon content, which would've helped.
 So it seems all those 400s/s particles are not actually 400s/s.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7927 on: July 16, 2022, 02:02:27 AM »
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I've spent some more hours looking through the tie particle list and we seem to have a bit of a problem.
 There's 150 that are listed as 400 s/s, the trouble is 400s/s by its nature contains Mn, and in higher amounts than 300s/s.
So far i can only find 3 particles that contain Mn, and 2 of those are in of a much greater % than is allowable (100-350%). The remaining one particle does contain the correct amount, but it also contains aluminium which shouldn't be there and too much Si. Missing are P & S, which should be there. The Fe content varies wildly from 50-96% which is not right. Unfortunately it doesn't list carbon content, which would've helped.
 So it seems all those 400s/s particles are not actually 400s/s.
Can you put thisin English for the rest of us?
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Offline TechnicalTim

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7928 on: July 16, 2022, 03:34:40 AM »
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Can you put thisin English for the rest of us?


 Ok, i'll try again. There's 150 particles on the tie listed as being 400 series stainless steel. This series contains manganese. Only 3 of those 150 contain manganese, but 2 contain way too much and 1 is the correct percentage. But they are all missing phosphorus and sulphur which should also be present. Therefore none of them are actually a grade of 400 stainless.
 I think the SEM has automatically given them a 'generic' identity as being close to what it recognises as 400 stainless. Even allowing room for error, it's not possible it just missed seeing the manganese as it's working to 5-6 decimal places on the percentages of elements it sees.
 Think of it like a ham,cheese and pickle sandwich, that's missing the ham & cheese.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 03:39:02 AM by TechnicalTim »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7929 on: July 16, 2022, 03:46:14 AM »
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Can you put thisin English for the rest of us?


 Ok, i'll try again. There's 150 particles on the tie listed as being 400 series stainless steel. This series contains manganese. Only 3 of those 150 contain manganese, but 2 contain way too much and 1 is the correct percentage. But they are all missing phosphorus and sulphur which should also be present. Therefore none of them are actually a grade of 400 stainless.
 I think the SEM has automatically given them a 'generic' identity as being close to what it recognises as 400 stainless. Even allowing room for error, it's not possible it just missed seeing the manganese as it's working to 5-6 decimal places on the percentages of elements it sees.
 Think of it like a ham,cheese and pickle sandwich, that's missing the ham & cheese.
So, in your opinion, what does this mean?

If not 400 series stainless stell, then what is it?
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Offline TechnicalTim

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7930 on: July 16, 2022, 12:43:14 PM »
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So, in your opinion, what does this mean?

If not 400 series stainless stell, then what is it?


 I'm trying not form too many opinions, they can be dangerous. Rather go by the evidence i can find.
 Not sure what to make of it yet, there's so many weird things going on. That 1 particle with the correct amount of manganese also contains .682% aluminium, so somebody's added mayo to that sandwich.
 
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Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7931 on: July 17, 2022, 10:52:57 AM »
Bruce,
Regarding the Recca story, I believe that you have asked the question, "what was Walter Recca doing in the woods of Cle Elum on 11/24/71?"

Based on that, I thought I would mention this story from the part 72 FBI files.  It was an interview with someone 5 years after the hijacking.  I won't regurgitate it all here, but the general summary is as follows.  This person and a few friends were going to a Methodist Church camp in Ellensburg, Wa on 11/24/71.  (The Manastash Creek area is also mentioned.)  Anyway, they encounter a strange man in the woods, virtually in the middle of nowhere, at approximately 11:30pm.  The rest of the story unfolds regarding the man's description, that he appeared tentative and somewhat inebriated while asking them for a ride to the nearest highway.  Other tidbits...a remote hunting cabin broken into, a roll of $20s.

Not sure if you or anyone from Washington state would consider Ellensburg/Manastash Creek as close enough to Cle Elum for this story to be of any interesting data point, but when I looked it up on Google maps, it seemed to be relatively close....and thus I thought I would just post it here. 

I don't believe Recca was Cooper--the story sounds crazy to me, but nonetheless, here is an account of an encounter with a strange man in the woods/mountians in the Cle Elum area.   I haven't circled back to the Recca story in terms of where that diner he showed up in  and it's location relative to this area, but would be somewhat intriguing if it were in the vicinity.

The entire account can be found in FBI Part 72, page 205 through 208.  Again,  more than likely, this is nothing but because of the location, I thought I would put it out there.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 10:53:30 AM by JAG »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7932 on: July 17, 2022, 02:36:19 PM »
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So, in your opinion, what does this mean?

If not 400 series stainless stell, then what is it?


 I'm trying not form too many opinions, they can be dangerous. Rather go by the evidence i can find.
 Not sure what to make of it yet, there's so many weird things going on. That 1 particle with the correct amount of manganese also contains .682% aluminium, so somebody's added mayo to that sandwich.
This good stuff. Can’t wait to see what your conclusions end up being.
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7933 on: July 20, 2022, 12:39:55 AM »
This is from Tom Kaye from the DB Cooper Facebook page:

“All, let's clear some things up. The SEM that identified the particles did so in a completely automated fashion. It is normally refined for gunshot residue analysis and I am pretty sure they did not focus on precise ID of metals.  Most of the particles are so small that the electron beam goes right through them and can get a signal from something else. In this case the carbon tabs had nickel wires in them so ANYTHING with nickel should be suspect.  I did not know they had nickel wires in them and they are the only brand that does so it was unexpected. I bought them because they were made particularly smooth so small particles would stand out.

The instrument appears to just bin everything into the closest match it can find, so I would expect lots of things end up in a particular bin like "400 SS" if the elements are even close. If you want better, more accurate analysis then look at my tree of hand examined particles on the website.  Carbon was not included because all the particles are stuck to a carbon sticky tab.

Finally we DID look at a  control tie worn for 9  years at Boeing from the 70-80's.  It was really clean and didn't even have particles on it that the owner said it should have. I don't like the Boeing connection but the vortex keeps coming back to it.

Another unfortunately ugly thing to consider is that these may be grinding particles from plated metals. If that were the case then we would see wild mixes of crazy things that make no sense. A ground off fleck could have 80% steel in one particle and 80% chromium in the next from the same piece of chrome plated steel.

Hope this helps.”
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Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7934 on: July 20, 2022, 02:17:40 PM »
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Bruce,
Regarding the Recca story, I believe that you have asked the question, "what was Walter Recca doing in the woods of Cle Elum on 11/24/71?"

Based on that, I thought I would mention this story from the part 72 FBI files.  It was an interview with someone 5 years after the hijacking.  I won't regurgitate it all here, but the general summary is as follows.  This person and a few friends were going to a Methodist Church camp in Ellensburg, Wa on 11/24/71.  (The Manastash Creek area is also mentioned.)  Anyway, they encounter a strange man in the woods, virtually in the middle of nowhere, at approximately 11:30pm.  The rest of the story unfolds regarding the man's description, that he appeared tentative and somewhat inebriated while asking them for a ride to the nearest highway.  Other tidbits...a remote hunting cabin broken into, a roll of $20s.

Not sure if you or anyone from Washington state would consider Ellensburg/Manastash Creek as close enough to Cle Elum for this story to be of any interesting data point, but when I looked it up on Google maps, it seemed to be relatively close....and thus I thought I would just post it here. 

I don't believe Recca was Cooper--the story sounds crazy to me, but nonetheless, here is an account of an encounter with a strange man in the woods/mountians in the Cle Elum area.   I haven't circled back to the Recca story in terms of where that diner he showed up in  and it's location relative to this area, but would be somewhat intriguing if it were in the vicinity.

The entire account can be found in FBI Part 72, page 205 through 208.  Again,  more than likely, this is nothing but because of the location, I thought I would put it out there.

Sounds worthy of investigating further. I wonder if Vern Jones is following up on this.