Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (10%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.7%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.3%)
50% Cooper lived
13 (21.7%)
75% Cooper lived
13 (21.7%)
100 Cooper lived
22 (36.7%)

Total Members Voted: 55

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 754566 times)

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7800 on: May 31, 2022, 06:32:29 PM »
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The title of this thread is: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case. My concern is about Evidence In The Case.

Maybe its time to turn the Cooper case over to Unbiased Professionals, if any timely progress is actually going to be made in the Cooper case. For one thing professionals would have given aspects of this case a completely different treatment than the average public is even capable of. So far, Tom Kaye and a few others have attempted to give this case a professional, or semi-professional treatment. An example is the McCrone list and the treatment that list is being given ...... by amateurs! The results are obvious.

This is just my opinion and my stance in matters of this kind. Unbiased Management of cases of this kind is extremely important.

I think just about everyone understands this principle. Thats all I really have to say - - - 

 
The professionals stopped investigating this case in July of 2016. All that is left are amateur researchers.

That is who this forum (and others) are for:  amateur researchers looking at the evidence, evaluating it, and trying  to draw conclusions. It's inevitable that will lead to wrong ideas, mistakes, and prejudices. Like it or not, that's how the sausage is made.

Even the professionals are biased sometimes and force evidence to fit a particular theory of theirs. Sometimes, even the experts screw up and get it wrong. When this happens, it's best to point out any evidence to the contrary. It's how we all get better at examining and understanding the evidence. Hopefully, it will bring us closer to solving the case.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7801 on: May 31, 2022, 07:30:30 PM »
Georger, you are not going to talk to me like that. if you have something to say you don't agree with then say it without all the drama. I'm not putting up with this crap anymore. take a week off or a year. makes no difference to me. If you do decide to come back you WILL treat people with respect.

7 days to make up your mind!

Shutter
 
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7802 on: June 01, 2022, 10:52:00 AM »
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15 degree indent flap setting (and knowing the 727 was degrees and not percent)

Knowing a flight plan could be filed from the air after takeoff

Knew where the emergency O2 was in the passenger cabin

Knew terminology for airstairs and phone system

He asked specifically if airplane was a 727

Knew about how long refueling should take.

Knew how to position refueling truck.

Was worried about the potential risk of marshals.

Contraindications:

Apparently did *not* know maximum range for his flight configuration

Did not know how to actually lower stairs.

Believed the cockpit could lower stairs in flight.

(I just realized that Cooper might have been aware of the airline protocols for hijackings, will have to look into that)

Martin, I think you hit on the big one here "He asked specifically if airplane was a 727."  He obviously wanted a 727, so the question would be if he had knowledge of the 727 previously, or did he go about searching for it after he decided to do a hijack.  I wonder if Cooper maybe flew once and saw the stairs as he came on the plane, then saw the stairs being operated by a stewardess.  Or maybe he saw a 727 at a local airport.  There were thousands of these in service by 1971, so it was not like this was a super secret military plane like the SR-71.

There seems to be two camps here on his knowledge.  One is that he worked at a Boeing type company and had intimate knowledge of the 727. The other one is that he knew something about aviation, but studied up on the 727 using books, friends, visits to an airport, etc.  I'm in the second camp.  Plenty of military planes took off with stairs down, or landed under difficult circumstances, or opened up bomb bay doors.  However, taking off with stairs locked down and hitting the ground is a whole different operation.  It's possible Cooper knew that the stairs would not be locked, therefore would not drag on the ground.  Lots to consider.

Haggar, I think it was you who asked about stall speed.  Janes Aircraft from 1970 has the stall speed for the 727.  I've seen it in aviation magazines too.  I have not seen reference to how one would get to stall speed by using an exact flaps setting.  I guess someone could decide that stall speed is jumpable/survivable, and then ask a pilot what flaps setting would create that speed.  It's odd that he did not just tell the pilots to fly at a specific speed.  Towards the end he did tell them to slow the plane down, right before his jump.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7803 on: June 01, 2022, 11:06:09 AM »
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15 degree indent flap setting (and knowing the 727 was degrees and not percent)

Knowing a flight plan could be filed from the air after takeoff

Knew where the emergency O2 was in the passenger cabin

Knew terminology for airstairs and phone system

He asked specifically if airplane was a 727

Knew about how long refueling should take.

Knew how to position refueling truck.

Was worried about the potential risk of marshals.

Contraindications:

Apparently did *not* know maximum range for his flight configuration

Did not know how to actually lower stairs.

Believed the cockpit could lower stairs in flight.

(I just realized that Cooper might have been aware of the airline protocols for hijackings, will have to look into that)

Martin, I think you hit on the big one here "He asked specifically if airplane was a 727."  He obviously wanted a 727, so the question would be if he had knowledge of the 727 previously, or did he go about searching for it after he decided to do a hijack.  I wonder if Cooper maybe flew once and saw the stairs as he came on the plane, then saw the stairs being operated by a stewardess.  Or maybe he saw a 727 at a local airport.  There were thousands of these in service by 1971, so it was not like this was a super secret military plane like the SR-71.

There seems to be two camps here on his knowledge.  One is that he worked at a Boeing type company and had intimate knowledge of the 727. The other one is that he knew something about aviation, but studied up on the 727 using books, friends, visits to an airport, etc.  I'm in the second camp.  Plenty of military planes took off with stairs down, or landed under difficult circumstances, or opened up bomb bay doors.  However, taking off with stairs locked down and hitting the ground is a whole different operation.  It's possible Cooper knew that the stairs would not be locked, therefore would not drag on the ground.  Lots to consider.

Haggar, I think it was you who asked about stall speed.  Janes Aircraft from 1970 has the stall speed for the 727.  I've seen it in aviation magazines too.  I have not seen reference to how one would get to stall speed by using an exact flaps setting.  I guess someone could decide that stall speed is jumpable/survivable, and then ask a pilot what flaps setting would create that speed.  It's odd that he did not just tell the pilots to fly at a specific speed.  Towards the end he did tell them to slow the plane down, right before his jump.
:good post:

I tend to be in the same camp as you. DBC had a basic knowledge of aviation and studied up the 727. I think it's likely he chose the 727 for one reason: the aftstairs. Much easier jump than out the side.

I believe he wanted the aircraft slowed to allow the stairs to extend.

Lastly, did he really know that the plane could take off with the aftstairs extended? Or was it just an educated guess or assumption on his part?
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Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7804 on: June 01, 2022, 11:25:41 AM »
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15 degree indent flap setting (and knowing the 727 was degrees and not percent)

Knowing a flight plan could be filed from the air after takeoff

Knew where the emergency O2 was in the passenger cabin

Knew terminology for airstairs and phone system

He asked specifically if airplane was a 727

Knew about how long refueling should take.

Knew how to position refueling truck.

Was worried about the potential risk of marshals.

Contraindications:

Apparently did *not* know maximum range for his flight configuration

Did not know how to actually lower stairs.

Believed the cockpit could lower stairs in flight.

(I just realized that Cooper might have been aware of the airline protocols for hijackings, will have to look into that)

Martin, I think you hit on the big one here "He asked specifically if airplane was a 727."  He obviously wanted a 727, so the question would be if he had knowledge of the 727 previously, or did he go about searching for it after he decided to do a hijack.  I wonder if Cooper maybe flew once and saw the stairs as he came on the plane, then saw the stairs being operated by a stewardess.  Or maybe he saw a 727 at a local airport.  There were thousands of these in service by 1971, so it was not like this was a super secret military plane like the SR-71.

There seems to be two camps here on his knowledge.  One is that he worked at a Boeing type company and had intimate knowledge of the 727. The other one is that he knew something about aviation, but studied up on the 727 using books, friends, visits to an airport, etc.  I'm in the second camp.  Plenty of military planes took off with stairs down, or landed under difficult circumstances, or opened up bomb bay doors.  However, taking off with stairs locked down and hitting the ground is a whole different operation.  It's possible Cooper knew that the stairs would not be locked, therefore would not drag on the ground.  Lots to consider.

Haggar, I think it was you who asked about stall speed.  Janes Aircraft from 1970 has the stall speed for the 727.  I've seen it in aviation magazines too.  I have not seen reference to how one would get to stall speed by using an exact flaps setting.  I guess someone could decide that stall speed is jumpable/survivable, and then ask a pilot what flaps setting would create that speed.  It's odd that he did not just tell the pilots to fly at a specific speed.  Towards the end he did tell them to slow the plane down, right before his jump.

Another variable to throw into the mix for consideration would be the Elsinore event where an unknown individual visited the Elsinore Sky Dive Center in the August of 1971 time frame and was asking questions on how to jump from a commercial air plane.   For the sake of this argument, pretend this was indeed Cooper -- the high level details of that conversation as documented in the 302s seem to me to be more like the second camp as described above.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7805 on: June 01, 2022, 11:31:50 AM »
It's also important to point out that the ability to make this jump does not require a high level of experience in skydiving.
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Offline Jay Ritchie

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7806 on: June 01, 2022, 06:08:21 PM »
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Martin, I think you hit on the big one here "He asked specifically if airplane was a 727."  He obviously wanted a 727, so the question would be if he had knowledge of the 727 previously, or did he go about searching for it after he decided to do a hijack.
There seems to be some differences between different accounts as to whether he asked specifically whether the airplane was a 727. I think the book by Geoffrey Gray mentions that he did ask the question - the book also seems to differ from the 302 interviews in its account of the observations of the check in guy.
 

Offline nickyb233

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7807 on: June 01, 2022, 06:15:33 PM »
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7808 on: June 02, 2022, 10:17:40 AM »
Phosphorus is an a common agricultural fertilizer and farm runoff frequently contaminated drinking water prior to the 1970s. The interaction of phosphorus with lead pipes (which were also common in the 1960s) can cause the formation of lead phosphate particles. Could Cooper have acquired the lead phosphate particulates simply from washing his face or brushing his teeth?
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Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7809 on: June 02, 2022, 04:14:08 PM »
For those who have looked a cockpit of the 727, do you have any pics of the flaps indicator gauges?  From what I can tell they are on the middle right, near the landing gear.

Mark: You had a manual, does it show in there?  Martin: You had a panel, does it have the flaps gauges?  Shutter and anyone who had the flight simulator, do you see flap settings on the gauges?

How would a pilot on that plane set the flaps?  I'm guessing a control on the throttle which would then show on the gauges??

Nicky and I were discussing the choice of "Flaps 15." Cooper initially said flaps down or something to that extent, then when asked for specifics he said "15."  From the pics I've seen of the cockpit, 15 was an actual setting.  It went 5, 15, 25, 30, 40.  So if he was looking for lift, but not too much drag, he would have been asking for the bottom range, whereas landing would be at the higher range.

The discussion with Nicky is always good and makes me think.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 04:22:41 PM by fcastle866 »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7810 on: June 02, 2022, 05:21:22 PM »
I have pictures and insight into the “flaps 15”.

Working on something right now, but will post more later.
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7811 on: June 02, 2022, 06:55:48 PM »
Flap settings from my simulator.

The lever to set the flaps is between the pilots next to the throttle on the right side. the gauges can be seen in the video and below that is lights to indicate the leading edge flaps. the gauges are next to the landing gear lever on the left side.

The leading edge flaps test lights are located by the cockpit door on the left..


..


« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 08:40:19 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7812 on: June 02, 2022, 06:59:11 PM »
Exterior from 2-40

..
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7813 on: June 02, 2022, 09:43:02 PM »
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The 15 flap setting was not unique to the 727-100. It is a typical setting for takeoff.

« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 10:16:06 PM by Chaucer »
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7814 on: June 02, 2022, 10:05:27 PM »
The flaps are set depending on the weight added to the aircraft..it will differ. I would input weight and weather or wind direction and it would tell me flap settings. 10-15 used a lot.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 10:31:35 PM by Shutter »