Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (10%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (6.7%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.3%)
50% Cooper lived
13 (21.7%)
75% Cooper lived
13 (21.7%)
100 Cooper lived
22 (36.7%)

Total Members Voted: 55

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 754960 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7815 on: June 02, 2022, 10:39:10 PM »
Estimation of Take Off V Speeds

Flap 15 V2 Speed will be 12 Kts more than V1/VR speed
Flap 5 speeds should be about 8 kts more than flaps 15 V1/VR speed
Flap 25 speeds will be about 8 kts less than flaps 15 V1/VR speed
Again you use the above procedure but add 104 at item 3
Using the same 140,000lb's example
Weight over 100,000lbs is 40
Divide 40 by 2 to get 20
Add 104 to get V Ref Flap 15
So That's 20+104 That equals 124 Kts This is an approximation of V Ref flaps 40 and V1/VR for flaps 15.
So finishing the example using the above criteria

Flap 15                                  Flap 5                                     Flap 25

V1/VR 124                             V1/VR+8=132                       V1/VR-8=116

V2 124+12=136                    V2 132+12=144                    V2 116+12=12
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7816 on: June 03, 2022, 11:04:52 AM »
Another contradiction is that DBC expected the parachutes to come from McChord - a USAF base. When they arrived, they were clearly not Air Force chutes. He seemed to not notice or not care.  For an experienced jumper, the type of rig you are jumping with is supremely important.
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7817 on: June 03, 2022, 01:54:55 PM »
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Another contradiction is that DBC expected the parachutes to come from McChord - a USAF base. When they arrived, they were clearly not Air Force chutes. He seemed to not notice or not care.  For an experienced jumper, the type of rig you are jumping with is supremely important.

If Cooper was familiar with USAF emergency parachutes of that era, and especially those used in SEA, he knew that they contained a pinger to help search and rescue people locate the jumper.
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7818 on: June 03, 2022, 03:01:57 PM »
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Another contradiction is that DBC expected the parachutes to come from McChord - a USAF base. When they arrived, they were clearly not Air Force chutes. He seemed to not notice or not care.  For an experienced jumper, the type of rig you are jumping with is supremely important.

If Cooper was familiar with USAF emergency parachutes of that era, and especially those used in SEA, he knew that they contained a pinger to help search and rescue people locate the jumper.
Good point. And he was fine with being provided with USAF rigs which means he knew how to disable the pinger or didn't know about the pinger. Either way, he behaved in a way that indicates he didn't care what kind of rigs he was provided outside of the parameters he set.
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7819 on: June 03, 2022, 05:55:35 PM »
That he asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes sounds to me like he was asking for two complete freefall rigs, mains and reserves. This might indicate he was asking for sport rigs? Not sure if the military was doing any freefall/HALO jumps at the time, or were they just doing static-line jumps? Static-line rigs would not work for him. Neither would bailout rigs be ideal, one because they are usually low-performance or non-steerable, and two because they do not have the D-ring hookups for reserves. Of course this would all depend on what he knew about them. In any case, he was also worried about time, so by the time they delivered them, it sounds like he was ready to just make do with whatever they brought him.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7820 on: June 04, 2022, 02:30:38 AM »
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That he asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes sounds to me like he was asking for two complete freefall rigs, mains and reserves. This might indicate he was asking for sport rigs? Not sure if the military was doing any freefall/HALO jumps at the time, or were they just doing static-line jumps? Static-line rigs would not work for him. Neither would bailout rigs be ideal, one because they are usually low-performance or non-steerable, and two because they do not have the D-ring hookups for reserves. Of course this would all depend on what he knew about them. In any case, he was also worried about time, so by the time they delivered them, it sounds like he was ready to just make do with whatever they brought him.

The Army was doing HALO jumps in 1965 or earlier.  I personally saw some HALO jump demonstrations in that time frame.  The ones I saw were prior to 1966 and could have been as early as 1963.
 
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Offline WalterRaleigh

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7821 on: June 04, 2022, 10:20:31 AM »
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That he asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes sounds to me like he was asking for two complete freefall rigs, mains and reserves. This might indicate he was asking for sport rigs? Not sure if the military was doing any freefall/HALO jumps at the time, or were they just doing static-line jumps? Static-line rigs would not work for him. Neither would bailout rigs be ideal, one because they are usually low-performance or non-steerable, and two because they do not have the D-ring hookups for reserves. Of course this would all depend on what he knew about them. In any case, he was also worried about time, so by the time they delivered them, it sounds like he was ready to just make do with whatever they brought him.

The Army was doing HALO jumps in 1965 or earlier.  I personally saw some HALO jump demonstrations in that time frame.  The ones I saw were prior to 1966 and could have been as early as 1963.

Paracord is very versatile,  especially if placed in the right hands. I have always wondered,  could Cooper have fashioned a length of paracord into a substitute D ring that would have had adequate strength, strong enough to hold a reserve chute if deployed? 
« Last Edit: June 04, 2022, 10:24:22 AM by WalterRaleigh »
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7822 on: June 05, 2022, 02:09:30 AM »
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""Did not know how to actually lower stairs.""

I think we should define this one some more.
Cooper did not know how to lower the stairs in a commercial civilian plane.
He requested that they release the stairs from the pilot's cabin.
This is how the 727's adapted for military use released their aft stairs.

This shows that Cooper's knowledge seems to come from personal military experience, or from personal military knowledge, or from a second hand military source.

Jack

The problem with that is the 727-C which Southern Air Transport owned/operated out of Yakota AFB in Japan and was used for covert missions... dropping agents in china during the vietnam war... this 727-C did not have any kind of a switch in the cockpit to operate the aft stairs. It had the same hydraulic control system config as the 100. Air America the other CIA outfit did a cargo air drop experiment with the 727 where they actually removed the aft stairs and replaced it with a sheet metal ramp. This thing was not controlled by the AC's hydraulic system and also had no control from the cockpit. Air america also just used the 727-C to transport troops and cargo. So if cooper did make that comment about the cockpit controlling the aft stairs it doesn't seem to have come from experience with any military version of the 727. Does anybody here remember where that comment is referenced. Was it the Tina Debrief? I forgot...

Thanks

Nicky

There is additional information on the aft stairs and Cooper's knowledge of them starting on page 124 (or perhaps earlier) of FBI files Part 71 which FlyJack has posted on DropZone.  This information covers a number of pages so be sure to read them all if you are interested in this.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7823 on: June 05, 2022, 03:38:32 PM »
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""Did not know how to actually lower stairs.""

I think we should define this one some more.
Cooper did not know how to lower the stairs in a commercial civilian plane.
He requested that they release the stairs from the pilot's cabin.
This is how the 727's adapted for military use released their aft stairs.

This shows that Cooper's knowledge seems to come from personal military experience, or from personal military knowledge, or from a second hand military source.

Jack

The problem with that is the 727-C which Southern Air Transport owned/operated out of Yakota AFB in Japan and was used for covert missions... dropping agents in china during the vietnam war... this 727-C did not have any kind of a switch in the cockpit to operate the aft stairs. It had the same hydraulic control system config as the 100. Air America the other CIA outfit did a cargo air drop experiment with the 727 where they actually removed the aft stairs and replaced it with a sheet metal ramp. This thing was not controlled by the AC's hydraulic system and also had no control from the cockpit. Air america also just used the 727-C to transport troops and cargo. So if cooper did make that comment about the cockpit controlling the aft stairs it doesn't seem to have come from experience with any military version of the 727. Does anybody here remember where that comment is referenced. Was it the Tina Debrief? I forgot...

Thanks

Nicky

There is additional information on the aft stairs and Cooper's knowledge of them starting on page 124 (or perhaps earlier) of FBI files Part 71 which FlyJack has posted on DropZone.  This information covers a number of pages so be sure to read them all if you are interested in this.

The FBI Part 71 file release includes the original Boeing flight tests of the 727 with the aft stairs deployed plus plenty of additional information.  While it will take several days to digest this new information, there are several quick takeaways.

It is obvious that Cooper did not have any knowledge of the Boeing 727 flight tests relative to the aft stairs.  These tests were apparently flown on either the first or second 727 aircraft that was built.

It also appears probable that Cooper was not an employee of Boeing or one of its subcontractors.

Cooper appeared to be mystified by the aft stairs control panel on the NWA 727 aircraft.  In fact, the hijacking may have been the first time that he had even seen the aft stairs control panel on a commercial 727.

Whatever information Cooper had on the 727 aft stairs or thought he had, may have originated in South East Asia.

Consequently, this greatly reduces the number of likely Cooper candidates and suggests he may have had a connection with a government agency.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7824 on: June 06, 2022, 03:54:57 AM »
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I have always wondered,  could Cooper have fashioned a length of paracord into a substitute D ring that would have had adequate strength, strong enough to hold a reserve chute if deployed?

I think that is entirely possible, especially if several turns/loops were used. After all, paracord is precisely what holds the canopy to the riser links. By definition...
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7825 on: June 06, 2022, 01:22:20 PM »
Eric Ulis recently conducted an interview with now retired Special Agent Larry Carr on Facebook Live. The interview didn't offer any shocking revelations, but it was interesting. Here are the major takeaways"

Carr believes that the DNA evidence on the tie is a dead end. ("multiple, fragmented DNA with the pool of donors in the millions"). His understanding is that the DNA in the Cooper case is "worthless".

Tried to locate the missing hairs but to no avail.

Carr says Tom Kaye's diatom research matches his belief that the money didn't arrive on Tena Bar the night of the hijacking:
"I always believed from what evidence exists in this case that the money didn't arrive there [Tena Bar] that night that he jumped. I always believed it ended up there several years later. So, that [Tom Kaye’s diatom research] fits with the narrative I’m familiar with."


Carr remains convinced that Cooper perished the night of the jump:

“Yeah, yeah! Just based on the fact…one, in 32 years of investigative experience, I have never known a criminal to keep something to themselves - even if it’s murder. They talk about it. At some point in time, DB Cooper would have talked about this had he lived. And the very moment that you talk is the very moment you are going to eventually get caught."

Carr believes Cooper had military experience and a working knowledge of parachutes along with a connection of some type with Boeing,  but was not an expert or criminal genius:

"I just look at the case…I try to take everything and look at the overview of what it says, and to me it says there was MAJOR lack of planning on Cooper’s part. MAJOR lack of planning. It does no good to get the money and not have an escape plan, and from what I can tell, he didn’t have a great escape plan. Also, the choices he made during that evening…it just boggles my mind that he made those choices expecting to be successful when he was free to make the choices that would have put him in a position to be successful. It’s not like his back was up against the wall and he only made the choices he made because that’s the only choices he had. He could have chosen to do things FAR different that would have provided a better chance for a successful outcome. Even if everything was perfect, that jump was fraught with danger…given the things he did or didn’t do, even if he executed perfectly set him up for failure. I think, and I’ve said this many time, he was one of these individuals that had just enough knowledge to make himself a  danger to himself and others…you gotta know what you’re doing in order to pull this off. When I look at…why didn’t he make demands on the types of equipment that he wanted? Why did he leave it up to everyone on the ground to interpret what he meant by “two front chutes and  two back chutes”? Well, which two back chutes? Which two front chutes? What do you want? If he’s an expert, then he not only knows HOW the equipment works, but he knows  WHY the equipment works, and he knows why it fails when it fails and how to avoid the failures. An expert knows if I do “XYZ” then this is going to be the outcome, but if I skip a step the outcome could be very different. An expert knows the chain of events that are likely to occur given the approach to things."



Carr says that the reason no missing person popped up with regards to Cooper is that communication between agencies was not what it is today, and it would be very easy for anyone back then to go missing and not be reported or missed.

Carr knew immediately that the Amboy chute was NOT related to the Cooper case. Knew instantly that it was a silk chute and not ripstop material. Cossey merely confirmed what Carr already believed.

Carr confirms that the tie was Cooper's. "It was the tie Cooper wore on the plane."

Carr says the FBI had no "holdback" information. Everything they know is publicly known.

Carr says all major suspects in the case have been confidently eliminated, specifically McCoy, Rackstraw, and Reca.

Carr is convinced the plane was flying down Victor 23, but that an interview with a guy in the Portland ATC indicated that the plane was a little further east as it approached Portland.

Carr believes there is "some play" with the jump time and it could be further south.

Carr believes the money became detached from Cooper during the jump and that he and the money bag ended up in the Washougal and years later arrived on Tena Bar:

"To me, it makes most sense, that when Cooper jumped…he tied the top of [the bank bag], tied it off at the top, the he wrapped it around, up and down, both sides, and then he tied the bag to his waist. So, I think when he jumped, the bag blew away, but the top stayed clamped where he had originally wrapped the cord around and tied it. I think that stayed intact, landed and didn’t burst open at that point in time. Then I think over several years the bag started decaying, but it still held the money together, and as the bag caught a snag out in the Columbia, washed up on Tena Bar. The bag was disintegrating at that point in time. The bundles came out stacked on top of each other, and then the bag  continued on with the snag…to me that makes the most sense of how it got there by natural means."


“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline fcastle866

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7826 on: June 06, 2022, 02:47:18 PM »
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That he asked for 'two back and two front' parachutes sounds to me like he was asking for two complete freefall rigs, mains and reserves. This might indicate he was asking for sport rigs? Not sure if the military was doing any freefall/HALO jumps at the time, or were they just doing static-line jumps? Static-line rigs would not work for him. Neither would bailout rigs be ideal, one because they are usually low-performance or non-steerable, and two because they do not have the D-ring hookups for reserves. Of course this would all depend on what he knew about them. In any case, he was also worried about time, so by the time they delivered them, it sounds like he was ready to just make do with whatever they brought him.

The Army was doing HALO jumps in 1965 or earlier.  I personally saw some HALO jump demonstrations in that time frame.  The ones I saw were prior to 1966 and could have been as early as 1963.

Paracord is very versatile,  especially if placed in the right hands. I have always wondered,  could Cooper have fashioned a length of paracord into a substitute D ring that would have had adequate strength, strong enough to hold a reserve chute if deployed?

I agree with you on the paracord, very versatile.  I use it a lot, and often take out the inner lines.  It's great to have around.  I read somewhere that Cooper asked for D-Rings, but I need to go back and see where.  If he attached the dummy (supposedly dummy) reserve to himself, then he was probably very skilled with knots.  I'm ok with knots through fishing and boating, but nothing to the level of some boaters I've seen or guys who were in the Navy.  Cooper was at ease tying knots and I wonder where he learned those skills.  My favorite suspect is a Navy man.  Regardless, it would take a lot of good knots to tie that money bag together and to his person and to stay with him on the jump.
 

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7827 on: June 06, 2022, 03:15:05 PM »
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Carr says the FBI had no "holdback" information. Everything they know is publicly known.


To me, that's a pretty important take away to get on the record. To me, things that would fall into this category are rumors like:
- He had a scar on the hand
- Some dialogue between Cooper and the crew that hasn't been reported in the 302s as of yet.  Agent RH made comments about how he used vulgar
language etc.

Thanks for the summary.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2022, 03:45:49 PM by JAG »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7828 on: June 08, 2022, 11:20:11 AM »
Regarding crew communications during the pressure event:

From Speical Agent Larry Carr:

"The concrete time of the jump was based on the crew's communication with NWA flight operations. NWA flight operations was keeping a running log documenting each communication noting the time. I did a re-read of the NWA log, tower transmission and the flight crew interviews and discovered when the crew felt the pressure variance they were not on the phone with NWA. They called just after to report the incident. The person keeping the log must have not written the time he received the communication but the time the crew thought they felt the bump."

From Andy Anderson, second officer aboard Flight 305:

"Scott said at first he wasn’t feeling anything for sure, then a little later he thought there was more drag and the nose was deviating a little. When the final bump happened and the oscillations stopped, that sealed it. But even then we weren’t sure and we waited before calling anybody."

"...we may have reported the oscillations/pressure changes once, but we were busy and didn’t report it multiple times. We weren’t sure what was going on. When the final bump happened, which we detected with our ears, we were surprised, and we didn’t report it right away.  Rataczak finally reported the bump via radio."
“Completely unhinged”
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7829 on: June 08, 2022, 03:35:38 PM »
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Carr says the FBI had no "holdback" information. Everything they know is publicly known.


To me, that's a pretty important take away to get on the record. To me, things that would fall into this category are rumors like:
- He had a scar on the hand
- Some dialogue between Cooper and the crew that hasn't been reported in the 302s as of yet.  Agent RH made comments about how he used vulgar
language etc.

Thanks for the summary.

Regardless of what Carr said, the FBI is definitely holding back information that is actually in the public domain.