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Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 557129 times)

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6750 on: July 26, 2021, 11:14:38 PM »
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flying machines
 

Magnificent, man!

ref:



better one -



----------

As for your question, don't know if I know (or can find) the answer till you ask it.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6751 on: July 26, 2021, 11:52:17 PM »
Compelling discussion going on at DZ between Adonai and Dudeman re- parachute snafu. Dudeman's explanation in response to Adonai calling Cossey a Liar, makes sense from a rigger-instructor point of view, as follows:

"Maybe but not necessarily. Changing or moving a ripcord handle isn't that unusual. If indeed Cossey used that rig for putting out students and wanted to get the handle further from their potential grasp, that would make sense. The BS part is that it would make the rig 'too difficult to use'. As you and I have both said, if that was the case, he would never give it to a pilot (such as Hayden). It would be too easy to change it back.

Also, as I said 'over there', if indeed that handle was mounted 'outboard', that could be the very reason that Cooper chose that rig. It would better get the handle out from under things he may have tied to his chest."

If it turned out Dudeman's observation was true, that would imply DB had considerable experience with chutes and parachuting - unlike some who always take the quick path out asserting they know more about Cooper than Cooper knew about himself!

It's just too bad Dudeman didn't get a chance to interview Cossey!  It might have saved the Cooper community a ton of grief and years of wasted %^%$#@^*). Oh well. Who knows - maybe EU and CARR will catch on in 2022. ?   
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 12:03:49 AM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6752 on: July 27, 2021, 12:37:47 AM »
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Bruce, I have even bought a copy of the second edition of your book.  And I am surprised that I have to read things back to you that you have written in that book.

On page 97, second edition, of your book you write the following (citing Larry Carr, DZ,12.17.07):

"The chutes [ed: this refers to the backpacks] were secured through NWA's Seattle flight operations.  The flight ops manager [ed: this would probably be Al Lee] called an individual from Pacific Aviation who in turn called an individual he knew [ed: this would be Norman Hayden] who had two back packs...

...This person put the two back packs in a cab and the cab driver delivered them to Boeing Field [ed: this must have been where Pacific Aviation was located] and then onto SEATAC by private car."


Thanks for bringing this conundrum to my attention, Robert. What you are citing is a direct quote from Larry Carr and not me. It does not reflect my research or findings. Clearly you interpreted Larry Carr's pronouncements as factual, and being fully supported by my research. That is not what I intended.

In this passage I was endeavoring to show Larry's perspective and his commitment to the Earl Cossey narrative. Unfortunately, you seem to have thought that I thought it was correct and relevant information. The fact that Larry Carr didn't even know the correct name of the airline - NWO versus NWA - that he was investigating shows his limited scope of investigative abilities. Northwest dropped the "Orient" in its corporate name in 1986 when he acquired Republic Airlines.

Further, to assume that everything Larry Carr has said on the parachutes is actually factual and true is a mistake. To do so means that you accept the Cossey narrative as truthful, since all that Larry knows about the parachutes is what Cossey told him, or what other FBI agents recorded hearing from Cossey.

Again, to fully understand the parachute issue and all of its political ramifications regarding the Norjak investigation, one must discard everything Cossey had ever said and start only with independent and corroborated information, such as from Harrison, Halstad, Hayden, etc.

The real question in the parachute discussion is WHY the FBI swallowed the Cossey canard so completely. Was the FBI scammed by a real good liar, or did they realize he was a "useful idiot" in LE parlance and helpful in steering the public narrative about DB Cooper?
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 12:42:56 AM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6753 on: July 27, 2021, 12:40:27 AM »
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If it turned out Dudeman's observation was true, that would imply DB had considerable experience with chutes and parachuting - unlike some who always take the quick path out asserting they know more about Cooper than Cooper knew about himself!

It's just too bad Dudeman didn't get a chance to interview Cossey!  It might have saved the Cooper community a ton of grief and years of wasted %^%$#@^*).

True!  It is amazing how little believable and uncontradicted parachute information is available on this hijacking.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6754 on: July 27, 2021, 12:46:19 AM »
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Bruce, I have even bought a copy of the second edition of your book.  And I am surprised that I have to read things back to you that you have written in that book.

On page 97, second edition, of your book you write the following (citing Larry Carr, DZ,12.17.07):

"The chutes [ed: this refers to the backpacks] were secured through NWA's Seattle flight operations.  The flight ops manager [ed: this would probably be Al Lee] called an individual from Pacific Aviation who in turn called an individual he knew [ed: this would be Norman Hayden] who had two back packs...

...This person put the two back packs in a cab and the cab driver delivered them to Boeing Field [ed: this must have been where Pacific Aviation was located] and then onto SEATAC by private car."


Thanks for bringing this conundrum to my attention, Robert. What you are citing is a direct quote from Larry Carr and not me. It does not reflect my research or findings. Clearly you interpreted Larry Carr's pronouncements as factual, and being fully supported by my research. That is not what I intended.

In this passage I was endeavoring to show Larry's perspective and his commitment to the Earl Cossey narrative. Unfortunately, you seem to have thought that I thought it was correct and relevant information. The fact that Larry Carr didn't even know the correct name of the airline - NWO versus NWA - that he was investigating shows his limited scope of investigative abilities. Northwest dropped the "Orient" in its corporate name in 1986 when he acquired Republic Airlines.

Further, to assume that everything Larry Carr has said on the parachutes is actually factual and true is a mistake. To do so means that you accept the Cossey narrative as truthful, since all that Larry knows about the parachutes is what Cossey told him, or what other FBI agents recorded hearing from Cossey.

Again, to fully understand the parachute issue and all of its political ramifications regarding the Norjak investigation, one must discard everything Cossey had ever said and start only with independent and corroborated information, such as from Harrison, Halstad, Hayden, etc.

The real question in the parachute discussion is WHY the FBI swallowed the Cossey canard so completely. Was the FBI scammed by a real good liar, or did they realize he was a "useful idiot" in LE parlance and helpful in steering the public narrative about DB Cooper?

Bruce, your fourth paragraph above is absolutely true.

I'm not going to check your book again, but I don't remember you contradicting Carr's post in your book.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6755 on: July 27, 2021, 12:57:06 AM »
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Finally, you are to be congratulated for including an index in your book, something that is sadly missing from most Cooper books.  And I would suggest that you pay particular attention to your mention of RH2 on pages 95 and 96.   


Thank you.

BTW, who is RH2? I see no mention of Ralph Himmelsbach nor Ralph Hatley on either page 95 or 96 in my 2nd Edition of DB Cooper and the FBI.

As for the problematic nature of the Cossey narrative, I thought that I had made my perspective clear. I guess not, since you seem to blend my findings with Larry's statements and Cossey's canard.

Lastly, I have not seen the 302 that states the FBI was unable to reach Cossey until midnight on the night of the skyjacking. Could you please post it Thanks.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6756 on: July 27, 2021, 01:26:08 AM »
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As for your question, don't know if I know (or can find) the answer till you ask it.

Dudeman, here is a true story and I am wondering about the individual involved.

Somewhere around 1940 and in the USA Midwest, there was a traveling show/circus that involved wrecking cars, by driving them into brick walls, and other such things to entertain the locals.  One of the other things involved a novel parachuting act.

The parachuting act involved a hot air balloon that was inflated on the ground by heat from a wooden fire until it had sufficient lift capacity to lift a parachutist and his parachute.  The balloon had a small sandbag on top that was sufficient to rotate the balloon so the remaining hot air could escape, once the parachutist departed, and get the deflated balloon back on the ground within an easily recoverable distance of the starting point.

There was one open parachute involved; no reserve. This parachute was not in a container but was streamed out with the apex of the canopy attached to the bottom of the balloon with a device that had a lanyard that was long enough to reach the parachutist at the bottom of this whole thing.

When the parachutist was ready to ascend, he put on his parachute harness and the whole thing was released from the ground.  Vertically, from top to bottom, there was the balloon, the release device, the parachute, and the parachutist with the release lanyard in hand.  Up and away everything went for several hundred feet or whatever. 

When the parachutist was ready to descend, he pulled the lanyard which resulted in the parachute being separated from the balloon and immediately opening.  The balloon rotated, spilled out the remaining hot air, and raced the parachutist to the ground.

I doubt very much if the CAA (the FAA of that day) would have approved of this whole thing, assuming they ever heard about it.  Life was a lot simpler at that time.

Another interesting thing, the parachutist only had one leg.

Do you have any information on the above?

   
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6757 on: July 27, 2021, 01:42:15 AM »
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Finally, you are to be congratulated for including an index in your book, something that is sadly missing from most Cooper books.  And I would suggest that you pay particular attention to your mention of RH2 on pages 95 and 96.   


Thank you.

BTW, who is RH2? I see no mention of Ralph Himmelsbach nor Ralph Hatley on either page 95 or 96 in my 2nd Edition of DB Cooper and the FBI.

As for the problematic nature of the Cossey narrative, I thought that I had made my perspective clear. I guess not, since you seem to blend my findings with Larry's statements and Cossey's canard.

Lastly, I have not seen the 302 that states the FBI was unable to reach Cossey until midnight on the night of the skyjacking. Could you please post it Thanks.

Bruce, RH2 is Ralph Hatley.  You describe a conversation you had with him on pages 94 and 95 of your book.  There is in fact FBI documentation that they had trouble getting in touch with Cossey immediately following the hijacking.  If I remember correctly, it was just after midnight on November 26th (the day after Thanksgiving) when he returned their calls.  I'm sure you already have this documentation somewhere on your computer.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6758 on: July 27, 2021, 01:58:59 AM »
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Bruce, I have even bought a copy of the second edition of your book.  And I am surprised that I have to read things back to you that you have written in that book.

On page 97, second edition, of your book you write the following (citing Larry Carr, DZ,12.17.07):

"The chutes [ed: this refers to the backpacks] were secured through NWA's Seattle flight operations.  The flight ops manager [ed: this would probably be Al Lee] called an individual from Pacific Aviation who in turn called an individual he knew [ed: this would be Norman Hayden] who had two back packs...

...This person put the two back packs in a cab and the cab driver delivered them to Boeing Field [ed: this must have been where Pacific Aviation was located] and then onto SEATAC by private car."


Thanks for bringing this conundrum to my attention, Robert. What you are citing is a direct quote from Larry Carr and not me. It does not reflect my research or findings. Clearly you interpreted Larry Carr's pronouncements as factual, and being fully supported by my research. That is not what I intended.

In this passage I was endeavoring to show Larry's perspective and his commitment to the Earl Cossey narrative. Unfortunately, you seem to have thought that I thought it was correct and relevant information. The fact that Larry Carr didn't even know the correct name of the airline - NWO versus NWA - that he was investigating shows his limited scope of investigative abilities. Northwest dropped the "Orient" in its corporate name in 1986 when he acquired Republic Airlines.

Further, to assume that everything Larry Carr has said on the parachutes is actually factual and true is a mistake. To do so means that you accept the Cossey narrative as truthful, since all that Larry knows about the parachutes is what Cossey told him, or what other FBI agents recorded hearing from Cossey.

Again, to fully understand the parachute issue and all of its political ramifications regarding the Norjak investigation, one must discard everything Cossey had ever said and start only with independent and corroborated information, such as from Harrison, Halstad, Hayden, etc.

The real question in the parachute discussion is WHY the FBI swallowed the Cossey canard so completely. Was the FBI scammed by a real good liar, or did they realize he was a "useful idiot" in LE parlance and helpful in steering the public narrative about DB Cooper?

Well, your whole Cossey narrative may be wrong and prejudicial. A clash of personalities - you vs Cossey. You may never have understood Cossey at all ,,, if what Dudeman suggests is true! Fact is Smith, you clash with a lot of people.

If you are paying attention: Dudeman suggests the whole DEBACLE over 'reconfigured pull' is no debacle at all! Nor would it have been an encumbrance to Cooper.  And in fact that arrangement might even have appealed to a knowledge person familiar with chutes and skydiving! The problem from then may have been a failure to communicate between Cossey, the FBI, you, and the greater DB Cooper escapism trying yto explain what was never said and never explained, in first place!. Cossey may have just been so fed up with morons and brass he decided not to explain anything.

A clash of personalities. Cossey told a number of people he was fed up with the whole business! Dudeman suggests what got lost was critical information about the chute Cooper may have selected which Cossey designed and packed "for himself"! Dudeman is saying (a) the chute was not difficult to open, (b) was not unusual as chutes built by instructors for themselves go, and (c) that leaves a  massive communication problem explained by 'clash of personalities'. Nothing more. Nothing less but with profound consequences. Then here you are today going around in circles ... accusing Cossey of being a liar? It was none of your business to begin with - from Cossey's point of view! 

In like manner Mr. Smith, take down Marla's slander of me on your website! Please. PRETTY PLEEAZ! I went to your website and posted myself under Georger a rebuttal to Marla and guess what happened : : : :  you swept in and deleted MY post and left Marlas'!

Dudeman is suggesting the Cossey problem was a failure to communicate with massive consequences that run to this very day ...
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 02:06:46 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6759 on: July 27, 2021, 02:00:17 AM »
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Finally, you are to be congratulated for including an index in your book, something that is sadly missing from most Cooper books.  And I would suggest that you pay particular attention to your mention of RH2 on pages 95 and 96.   


Thank you.

BTW, who is RH2? I see no mention of Ralph Himmelsbach nor Ralph Hatley on either page 95 or 96 in my 2nd Edition of DB Cooper and the FBI.

As for the problematic nature of the Cossey narrative, I thought that I had made my perspective clear. I guess not, since you seem to blend my findings with Larry's statements and Cossey's canard.

Lastly, I have not seen the 302 that states the FBI was unable to reach Cossey until midnight on the night of the skyjacking. Could you please post it Thanks.

Bruce, RH2 is Ralph Hatley.  You describe a conversation you had with him on pages 94 and 95 of your book.  There is in fact FBI documentation that they had trouble getting in touch with Cossey immediately following the hijacking.  If I remember correctly, it was just after midnight on November 26th (the day after Thanksgiving) when he returned their calls.  I'm sure you already have this documentation somewhere on your computer.

Agree.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6760 on: July 27, 2021, 04:12:22 AM »
I'd be really curious to hear 377's take on all of this. I started jumping in '79, eight years after Cooper. By then all experienced jumpers had piggyback rigs. I never saw an instructor using a bailout rig to put students out, there would be no reason to. And no instructor (or anybody) would (or should) make an intentional (non-emergency) jump with one. Again, putting out static line students, the instructor does not jump with them, but watches from the plane. 377 was around I think about ten years earlier. I'm curious if he ever saw or heard of an instructor who normally jumped gutter gear using a bailout rig to put students out. What I've said about that has all been speculation on my part due to Eric's statement that Cossey used that rig as an instructor.

And Cooper choosing an 'outboard' ripcord may or may not indicate experience. Perhaps he was just good at observation and reasoning, knowing he was going to tie stuff to himself.


------

Robert99 - I'm not specifically familiar with the one legged man from the 40's, but I know such jumps were not completely uncommon during those barnstorming days. Even earlier. Your story immediately brought to mind Georgia "Tiny" Broadwick and her adoptive father (husband?) Charles Broadwick, who made similar balloon jumps.

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Tiny is credited as the first woman to jump from a plane, and the first person to make an intentional freefall jump. She also made some demonstration jumps over Griffith Park in Los Angeles to convince the military that parachutes could be useful to them. One of their earlier 'suspended' containers for balloon jumps involved a steering wheel. I've seen her signature. One of my earliest mentors and my first rigger, Al Frisby, had it in his logbook.
 
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Offline Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6761 on: July 27, 2021, 04:54:09 AM »
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I'd be really curious to hear 377's take on all of this. I started jumping in '79, eight years after Cooper. By then all experienced jumpers had piggyback rigs. I never saw an instructor using a bailout rig to put students out, there would be no reason to. And no instructor (or anybody) would (or should) make an intentional (non-emergency) jump with one. Again, putting out static line students, the instructor does not jump with them, but watches from the plane. 377 was around I think about ten years earlier. I'm curious if he ever saw or heard of an instructor who normally jumped gutter gear using a bailout rig to put students out. What I've said about that has all been speculation on my part due to Eric's statement that Cossey used that rig as an instructor.

And Cooper choosing an 'outboard' ripcord may or may not indicate experience. Perhaps he was just good at observation and reasoning, knowing he was going to tie stuff to himself.


------

Robert99 - I'm not specifically familiar with the one legged man from the 40's, but I know such jumps were not completely uncommon during those barnstorming days. Even earlier. Your story immediately brought to mind Georgia "Tiny" Broadwick and her adoptive father (husband?) Charles Broadwick, who made similar balloon jumps.

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Tiny is credited as the first woman to jump from a plane, and the first person to make an intentional freefall jump. She also made some demonstration jumps over Griffith Park in Los Angeles to convince the military that parachutes could be useful to them. One of their earlier 'suspended' containers for balloon jumps involved a steering wheel. I've seen her signature. One of my earliest mentors and my first rigger, Al Frisby, had it in his logbook.

Thanks for the information.  I have heard of Tiny Broadwick before.  I remember seeing pictures from WW1 of balloon observers jumping with the canopy apparently wrapped around a drum and may be what you refer to as a "steering wheel".
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6762 on: July 27, 2021, 01:40:04 PM »
FJ is now focusing on a miss-identification of the chute Cooper used. That's justifiable. Blevins took a similar approach years ago.

Apparently there was no clear identification of the chute Cooper bailed with, by the FBI or the news media at the time. The Cooper chute SNAFU continues.   
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 02:56:14 PM by georger »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6763 on: July 27, 2021, 04:10:35 PM »
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...
Dudeman is suggesting the Cossey problem was a failure to communicate with massive consequences that run to this very day ...


Cossey communicated with me easily and frequently until I asked him why he sent his parachutes to the wrong airport. Then he shouted "fuck you" and hung up the phone. But before then he was quite loquatious.

To address the "Cossey communication problem," I am not the one saying the modified NB-6 was too-tough to pull. Rather, that is what Cossey told me, and I'm simply reporting what he told me.

To re-iterate, Cossey told me that what made his NB-6 too tough was the following:
1. He moved the rip cord from the right side to the left side.
2. He buried the handle in a pouch.
3. The attachments for the rip cord were modified so that the successful pull required two motions - "out and then up." Cossey told me that most skydivers wouldn't know to do that type of maneuver.
4. The NB-6 was over-stuffed with a 28-foot canopy.

As for lying to me, assuming that all of the above is true and that he actually delivered two back chutes to NWO via Boeing Field, etc., here are some of the deceits Coss fostered upon me:

1. In 2009 he told me the chute DB Cooper used was a "Paradise."
2. In 2010 he changed that to a Pioneer. Then he told me that was the "unused parachute" and that Cooper actually jumped with an NB-6. However, Sluggo was the Big Kahuna at the DZ at the time and insisted strongly that the chute Cooper used was a ParaCommander, and that he got that information from Cossey or the feds, as I recall. When I asked Coss about the ParaCommander, he told me that it definitely was not a ParaCommander, but the NB-6.
3. In 2012 he said that the chute Cooper used was not the NB-6, but an NB-8, with its customary 28-foot canopy. When I asked him about the NB-6 being touted by Larry Carr at the DZ, Coss told me that he had no idea how the NB-6 story got started, even though he had told me a couple of years before that an NB-6 was Cooper's chute and was over-stuffed. Coss was murdered a few months later, in April 2013.

Therefore, whoever is the "legit, reliable source" calling Eric and telling him that Cooper used a modified, over-stuffed NB-6 with a 28-foot canopy is clearly using notes or memories that are at least eight years old, and most likely date back to the pre-2012 Cossey narrative, such what Coss was spouting in 2008 or 2009. I talked with Eric today and asked him how his source knew that Cooper used Cossey's chute. He told me that his source got the information from Cossey. So it all circles back to Coss.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 04:15:38 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #6764 on: July 27, 2021, 06:33:39 PM »
I'll throw my standard disclaimer out here again - I am not a researcher in this case. I have not read all the documents and I do not have or necessarily subscribe to any definitive theories about it. I have my reasons for being interested, so I follow along. I do have a good working knowledge of parachutes. So when they are mentioned, I try to throw in a few cents worth of info or relevant speculation to flesh that out in the hope that it helps your understanding. Otherwise I make the occasional joke or smartass remark.

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To re-iterate, Cossey told me that what made his NB-6 too tough was the following:
1. He moved the rip cord from the right side to the left side.
2. He buried the handle in a pouch.
3. The attachments for the rip cord were modified so that the successful pull required two motions - "out and then up." Cossey told me that most skydivers wouldn't know to do that type of maneuver.
4. The NB-6 was over-stuffed with a 28-foot canopy.


Here's what that means to me:

1. Ripcord handles are mounted on the main lift web of the harness, which is the part that runs over your shoulder and down to your hip. On bailout rigs, they are located on the left lift web, on the left side of your body, usually at or just below your breast. If he moved the handle from the right side of that left lift web to the left side of the same, that would be consistent with moving it from 'inboard' to 'outboard', or from over your breast to closer to your armpit. That would be consistent with trying to get it farther away from where a panicked student might grab.

2. The ripcord routes from the pin(s) on the backpack, through a housing that routes it to the front. The handle is then put into a pocket (or 'pouch') mounted on the harness, to hold it in place so it doesn't flop around ('float'). I think I read somewhere that he tightened that pocket to make it more secure. The handle would still have to be accessible.

3. "Out then up" - 'Out' - he may be defining that that the handle would take a bit more effort to get out of it's pocket, 'Up' - indicates that the housing was routed from the underside rather than over the shoulder. Not sure if that was standard for that rig or would require a modification. If I remember right, I think the pictures of Hayden's museum rig shows the housing over the shoulder and the handle inboard. However...***

4. If the canopy was slightly larger than the container was designed for, it would make it tighter and require a bit more pull force to extract the pin. However...***

*** The FAA has minimum and maximum standards for the pull force required to open a reserve. For it to be legal, the rig would have to fall between those. Cossey may have been defining, 'get the handle out of the pocket, then pull'. However, if that rig was packed anywhere within reason, any energized person giving it a stout pull should have no problem getting that rig open.