Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 588878 times)

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7410 on: October 09, 2021, 12:09:45 PM »
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Wind loads are tricky. on the ground you have a vast amount of variations in determining wind loads. testing is based on 150 mph winds with a 3 second gust. if not mistaken 100 lbs per square foot was applied the the back of the stairs at 170 knots. that's several thousand lbs pushing against the stairs. on the ground you have positive and negative loads. you can actually watch a window breath in a major hurricane. the only + or - would be pressure inside the aircraft.

I had posted the weight of an aft stair replacement on DZ.com at one point. A maintenance guy wrote about how he had the brainstorm of having them packaged and available rather than waiting for them to be shipped, if a replacement as needed.

In any case, what's interesting to me is the comparison of body+money weight to the massive wind loads you mention. Since body+weight can cause the stair to deflect, it shows that it's an unstable configuration where small changes can cause or not cause deflection.

So it would be easy for small changes in plane velocity and attitude, and maybe outside air velocity, to change behaviors dramatically.

Witness in the transcripts where they had to slow down to help Cooper get the door open?

Also, depending on the engle of the airplane, things would change around. (like if you were ascending rapidly) ??

lots of variables.

One fbi test doesn't convince me of much.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7411 on: October 09, 2021, 12:16:14 PM »
Cooper telling them to slow the plane down was shortly after takeoff. they slowed the plane down to around 155 and leveled off at 7,000..
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7412 on: October 09, 2021, 12:19:18 PM »
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The fabric would slowly deteriorate. it wouldn't come off in one piece. if not mistaken the stuntman said they did something like 10 takes..don't quote me on that, but it's what I recall..

I'm just going from the Parachutist article. Once someone jumps, they're not going to do another shot until they get the jumper again.

Unless they did multiple jumpers. At DZ.com, it was claimed Jerry Meyers was the jumper (Cooper). But unclear if he was always the jumper. I wonder if the closeups during freefall were of Jerry Meyers.

I'm assuming "two loads" means two flights, therefore 2 jumps.

And if a videographer jumped too (on the 2nd load)..then you probably need him too.

They said they had 3 cameramen. (apparently they were jumpers and probably had parachutes, just in case).
Don't know if that includes the camera in the Lear jet.

"Donnelly and Cottingham chose four others for their basic crew: Boenish, Dean Westgaard, Bill Edwards and Jerry Meyers. It was an experienced group of jumpers; Donnelly estimated that the average number of jumps was about 3,000. Boenish was chosen as a third photographer to insure high-quality footage. All three photographers carried both 35mm film cameras and 35mm still cameras...

But the big expense was renting the 727 as a jump platform. Total cost for two loads came to $65,000"

(note: I had thought it was $60,000 a load. Apparently it was only $65,000 for both loads.
Total shoot cost (budget) was $140,000. Maybe that included painting the plane!)

« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 12:30:21 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7413 on: October 09, 2021, 12:19:54 PM »
Quote
So it would be easy for small changes in plane velocity and attitude, and maybe outside air velocity, to change behaviors dramatically.

Yes, impact windows are no different. each size of a window will have different pressures applied. 150 vs 170 can make a big difference in actions..
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7414 on: October 09, 2021, 12:21:36 PM »
The Parachutist article page I posted, detailed how a 10 foot section of fabric came off and knocked  Donnelly off his feet while standing on the stairs spotting the DZ. (over Yosemite Park)

so the fabric apparently doesn't always come off in small pieces
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7415 on: October 09, 2021, 12:24:31 PM »
Interesting, that's the whole side.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7416 on: October 09, 2021, 12:25:00 PM »
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Quote
So it would be easy for small changes in plane velocity and attitude, and maybe outside air velocity, to change behaviors dramatically.

Yes, impact windows are no different. each size of a window will have different pressures applied. 150 vs 170 can make a big difference in actions..

The force goes up as the square of wind velocity.

F = 1/2 p * (v**2) * A

the p is density of air.
A is area exposed to the wind
v = wind speed
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Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7417 on: October 09, 2021, 12:28:08 PM »
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Interesting, that's the whole side.

it was while he was spotting the dz, 20 miles away.
maybe the plane hadn't fully slowed down yet?

in the sequence, they show the wheels being lowered and the jump very soon afterwards. I would think the wheels being lowered slowed the plane a bit?

So it's possible the fabric got ripped off at higher speed.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7418 on: October 09, 2021, 12:32:00 PM »
That would be with him on the bottom of the stairs? one would think not much damage would occur with the stairs only dropping a couple feet prior to getting on the stairs.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7419 on: October 09, 2021, 12:36:45 PM »
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That would be with him on the bottom of the stairs? one would think not much damage would occur with the stairs only dropping a couple feet prior to getting on the stairs.


yeah, it's unclear.
To spot a DZ, you'd have to be down the stairs enough to be able to look down (or forward I guess)
so maybe not at the bottom of the stairs..but enough for it to deflect and a human get a view of where the plane is relative to ground?

if they were 20 miles from DZ, going maybe 170 miles per hour, or 2.83 miles per minute, that's about 7 minutes before where they planned to jump..So I guess they were getting ready to go

interesting I could imagine Cooper doing the same thing

I would imagine there'd be some time on the stairs trying to sort things out ...minutes before actually jumping.

i picture Cooper on the stairs maybe with briefcase and the other reserve, chucking them out and trying to see where he was, and then maybe going back up (or staying on the stairs) and waiting until things seemed a little better (light wise, close to city-wise) ??
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7420 on: October 09, 2021, 12:39:38 PM »
It's hard to say. a lot more damaged occurred with 305 vs testing..only one side was affected during the testing..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7421 on: October 09, 2021, 12:53:32 PM »
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The link should take you to all my Cooper pics sent to me by WSHS
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7422 on: October 09, 2021, 01:54:46 PM »
was reading this theory (Gregory Hall, Sept 2016)

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pressure bump vs pressure dip

He talks about how the cabin pressurization system was not documented to have been turned off?

since the system was automated, pressurization would have occured depending on whether the door to the aft stairs was open or closed?

he talks about how the pressure might have dipped due to the door being closed, some cabin pressurization, then opened.
If so, maybe the pressure bump was the first time the door was opened? The lever for the stairs is on the left of the door. so activating it doesn't require door open? See attached from 727 manual

He also claims "For most people it is difficult to determine if air pressure change in their ears is the result of high pressure (bump) or low pressure (dip)..both feel essentially the same"

background on Greg Hall

Retired Investigator had a 27 year career in law enforcement. Three years were as a "street cop" (Deputy Sheriff) and 24 years as an FBI Special Agent. Prior to law enforcement, Retired Investigator served in the US Army during the tail-end of the Vietnam war. He was a paratrooper in the 82nd Airborne Division, serving in the Airborne Infantry, attaining the NCO rank of E-5. After college, he entered the US Air Force, Officer Training School (OTS) and received an Officer's commission. He received additional training in the USAF Security Police (now Security Forces) career field. During the 1980's, he received an appointment to the FBI as a Special Agent. He spent approximately half his career investigating criminal matters and the other half involved in National Security. During 2017, his "DB Cooper" theory was portrayed in an episode of EXPEDITION UNKNOWN, hosted by Josh Gates on television's TRAVEL CHANNEL and the DISCOVERY CHANNEL.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 01:58:14 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7423 on: October 09, 2021, 02:02:07 PM »
interesting that the light configuration was different on the 727-100 vs 727-200 for indicating stairs extended/locked

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"However, the crew had evidence that the airstair was not locked, as Mucklow "observed the red indicator light go on the [flight engineer's] panel indicating that the stairs had been lowered." On the 727-100, that light would be de-energized only if the airstair was locked either up or down. (On the -200, a green light was added to indicate a fully extended and locked position.) The ATC transcript indicates the captain's later belief that the airstair wasn't "all the way down", so it's reasonable to assume the warning light remained illuminated."

Were there no lights for indicating whether door was open or closed?
 

Online Robert99

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7424 on: October 09, 2021, 02:06:41 PM »
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The link should take you to all my Cooper pics sent to me by WSHS

Shutter, do you know if there were any NWA mechanics or other personnel onboard for the FBI tests to do the actual lowering of the stairs?