Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 570354 times)

Offline JAG

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7440 on: October 11, 2021, 09:54:38 PM »
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Another good newspaper article from fbi file  43 page 257

FBI Baker is quoted.

The Oregonian, by Leverett Richards, apparently 2/13/80

"Baker said the money the Ingrams' found had not been counted. At first, the amount recovered was estimated at about $4,000 but 'we have revised our estimate to several thousand dollars'"

Also: the "random packaging" that Carr retold:

"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. 'to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry.' Because of that, the actual amount could not be estimated he said."


this seems bizarre to me...since we have no report detailing any "repackaging" although Carr seemed to say that also.

Seems clear to me that all the estimates that are being used today, for amount of money found, are wrong?

Hey snow, I came across another newspaper article talking about the money settlement where the math doesn't appear to add up to $5800.
FBI Part 48, page 44.  In a nutshell, it talks about the Ingram's agreeing to a 50/50 split with the insurance company after the FBI takes their cut, which according to the article is 14 bills.  It states that the Ingrams were awarded $1800 or 90 bills ($1800/20=90).  Since this is supposed to be a 50% cut, the insurance company would have gotten the other 90 bills ?  So 90 + 90 +14 = 194 bills?  194 x $20 =  $3,880

Anyway, I figured I would pass this along.  It's very strange...been hearing $5800 forever.  Who actually forensically separated the bricks of money ?  Was it done by the FBI shortly after recovering the money from the Ingrams ?  Did they separate all of the money ? Is it possible it was done during the court case between the Ingrams/Insurance Company/FBI years later ?

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Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7441 on: October 11, 2021, 11:31:37 PM »
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Another good newspaper article from fbi file  43 page 257

FBI Baker is quoted.

The Oregonian, by Leverett Richards, apparently 2/13/80

"Baker said the money the Ingrams' found had not been counted. At first, the amount recovered was estimated at about $4,000 but 'we have revised our estimate to several thousand dollars'"

Also: the "random packaging" that Carr retold:

"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. 'to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry.' Because of that, the actual amount could not be estimated he said."


this seems bizarre to me...since we have no report detailing any "repackaging" although Carr seemed to say that also.

Seems clear to me that all the estimates that are being used today, for amount of money found, are wrong?

Hey snow, I came across another newspaper article talking about the money settlement where the math doesn't appear to add up to $5800.
FBI Part 48, page 44.  In a nutshell, it talks about the Ingram's agreeing to a 50/50 split with the insurance company after the FBI takes their cut, which according to the article is 14 bills.  It states that the Ingrams were awarded $1800 or 90 bills ($1800/20=90).  Since this is supposed to be a 50% cut, the insurance company would have gotten the other 90 bills ?  So 90 + 90 +14 = 194 bills?  194 x $20 =  $3,880

Anyway, I figured I would pass this along.  It's very strange...been hearing $5800 forever.  Who actually forensically separated the bricks of money ?  Was it done by the FBI shortly after recovering the money from the Ingrams ?  Did they separate all of the money ? Is it possible it was done during the court case between the Ingrams/Insurance Company/FBI years later ?

Here's the link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Here's another one. States Brian given 150 bills - maybe. Brian actual take home was a so-called even split MINUS $500 Brian had previously been given as a reward by Globe Indemnity. The reporter evidently didnt know nuthin about the $500 reward previously given, but the lawyers remembered!   

Again, we have the Court decision btwn NWA vs Globe Indemnity who had previously resisted paying NWA their $200k loss, but do not have a copy of the Court decision in Ingram/Tosaw vs Everyone which got Brian his bills. If anyone can find that court decision pse provide a url.     
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 12:55:07 AM by georger »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7442 on: October 12, 2021, 01:20:00 AM »
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Another good newspaper article from fbi file  43 page 257

FBI Baker is quoted.

The Oregonian, by Leverett Richards, apparently 2/13/80

"Baker said the money the Ingrams' found had not been counted. At first, the amount recovered was estimated at about $4,000 but 'we have revised our estimate to several thousand dollars'"

Also: the "random packaging" that Carr retold:

"Baker said the money was bundled into packages of several sizes at the time of the hijacking. 'to make it appear that it was randomly done, as if it was done in a hurry.' Because of that, the actual amount could not be estimated he said."


this seems bizarre to me...since we have no report detailing any "repackaging" although Carr seemed to say that also.

Seems clear to me that all the estimates that are being used today, for amount of money found, are wrong?

Hey snow, I came across another newspaper article talking about the money settlement where the math doesn't appear to add up to $5800.
FBI Part 48, page 44.  In a nutshell, it talks about the Ingram's agreeing to a 50/50 split with the insurance company after the FBI takes their cut, which according to the article is 14 bills.  It states that the Ingrams were awarded $1800 or 90 bills ($1800/20=90).  Since this is supposed to be a 50% cut, the insurance company would have gotten the other 90 bills ?  So 90 + 90 +14 = 194 bills?  194 x $20 =  $3,880

Anyway, I figured I would pass this along.  It's very strange...been hearing $5800 forever.  Who actually forensically separated the bricks of money ?  Was it done by the FBI shortly after recovering the money from the Ingrams ?  Did they separate all of the money ? Is it possible it was done during the court case between the Ingrams/Insurance Company/FBI years later ?

Here's the link: You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Good find JAG
Yes, I believe the amount reported that was found, is way overstated.
Everyone wants to believe the 3 bundles represent a slightly reduced three * 100 bills, so that it seems odd that 3 packets would be in one place.

One you start saying there's maybe 2 packets worth (less), then it starts seeming more like random river action or dredge action

i mean: if it was just the remnants of 1 packet of 100 bills, would people change their thinking? if so, then just the remnants of 2 packets of 100 bills should change thinking also.

Also: it should ask the question: why was the FBI not telling the truth about determining "money in the same order as delivered to Cooper"

Seems like the FBI was eager to push their bias, as opposed to releasing good info.

It would be real nice to see an FBI lab report on the money find. Why hasn't one been released?

Bruce should smell a fubar here, much like the chutes, and much like the cigarette butts.

Honestly the number of fubar's by the FBI seems a little amazing. Of course Bruce Smith might suggest that it was part of a plan:  Deny. Obfuscate. etc :)
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7443 on: October 12, 2021, 01:39:12 AM »
I've been thinking about the so-called training reserve.

It's amazing we don't have a clear description of how it was marked. Red X? Black X? Red flaps? Why would flaps be red? you can barely see the flaps when the container is closed (packed), right?

Was there only one training reserve at Issaquah? That would seem odd to me. I would think you'd want a couple for multi-student classes.

One description was that the reserve was not as "packed" looking, because of removed/missing canopy fabric (..i.e. not just canopy panels sewn shut. Is that true or no?

But the real question I have:
When the reserve is normally packed (not training) the internal rubber bands on each side hold the folded lines, right?

If so, then quick repacking for training, probably didn't have lines in the rubber bands? Takes too long. Too fussy and unnecessary for training.

So how were the lines stowed in the training reserve? Was there enough room in the container due to removed fabric, so the lines could be stuffed in any which way?

I'm wondering if the lines had to have some care in packing, but not secured by the rubber bands? To prevent entanglement when the student scooped the canopy out and threw it (either to the side per dudeman, or overhead per others)

if so, then daisy-chaining the lines before stuffing everything in, makes sense.

There's some reports of Cooper trying to wrap the money in the parachute he removed? Is that true or not true? or was he trying to use the container? If he was trying to wrap in the parachute...then not using the training reserve might betray some knowledge that the training reserve didn't open to a full canopy? and might not be good for that purpose?

in any case, I'm mostly amazed at the lack of description of the training reserve, and how it was packed.

I don't have faith that Tosaw's description is an accurate description of it (black X). There's no reason to believe Tosaw had access to info not currently available.

Amazing there's no description in the fbi files.

How were they going to identify it if no description of the supposed X or colored flaps?

Even the description of it, that was reported when the 2001 Reed Island parachute was found, didn't include any X on the container. But they noted the name on it. That's like reporting a human had a tattoo of his mother's name on his wrist, but ignoring the big X tattoo on his back?

Strange.

There's no reason really to believe that it was training reserve, if you go full fubar-thinking.

The only place that says it's training reserve is Emrich post hijack. Was he right or wrong?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 01:51:05 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7444 on: October 12, 2021, 01:59:24 AM »
Here's another thing that bothers me.

Sheridan died a while ago. Yet his son and daughter are not up my ass about his book.

With Sheridan's name plastered everywhere as a suspect, for all the son and daughter know, there could be thousands of copies of his book being sold. With a pile of money as a result?

Yet: I don't hear zip from no one. Just Blevins ranting like a maniac about high crimes and misdemeanors.

I mean, if the son or daughter was interested in seeing if there's bags of money they're missing out on, I'm pretty easy to find here.

Why no contact?

Sure they might just have had a problematic relationship with Dad and just don't care (and not their fault, he was a curmudgeon)

BUT: someone did help him with his book before, trying to scan photos into Word for him. When I saw that, I realized someone did care about him.

So what happened to all his stuff? He had some interesting bowls from Nepal...interesting mementos of his travels.

Did his family gather up stuff? Was there an estate sale?

They could have easily found my email in his computer, and asked for control of his book. That would seem normal.

But instead: I've heard nothing.

Be interesting to hear from them. I would do whatever they want.
I would never do what Blevins wants. I like the idea of him getting worked up by being forced to see his threats be zero value.

I have this heavy weight.
A dude whose life's work took a bunch a time. And railing about not being able to get it published.

Now it's the albatross around my neck. What to do with it when I'm dead? :)
(I control the KDP/Amazon account it's published under)

I'd love to hear from the son/daughter. I would just hand things over.
In terms of self-examination, I do ponder why Sheridan trusted me with his life's work. I don't think I've abused that trust.

One could just write this all off as a crazy dude and that it doesn't matter. But to some degree it does matter...just because there was some human-to-human connection that should be respected. But I'm unclear about it all.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 02:06:08 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7445 on: October 12, 2021, 03:32:20 AM »
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... It would be real nice to see an FBI lab report on the money find. Why hasn't one been released?

Bruce should smell a fubar here, much like the chutes, and much like the cigarette butts.

Honestly the number of fubar's by the FBI seems a little amazing. Of course Bruce Smith might suggest that it was part of a plan:  Deny. Obfuscate. etc :)


I would suggest? Really?
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7446 on: October 12, 2021, 03:33:52 AM »
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Here's another thing that bothers me.

Sheridan died a while ago. Yet his son and daughter are not up my ass about his book.

With Sheridan's name plastered everywhere as a suspect, for all the son and daughter know, there could be thousands of copies of his book being sold. With a pile of money as a result?

Yet: I don't hear zip from no one. Just Blevins ranting like a maniac about high crimes and misdemeanors.

I mean, if the son or daughter was interested in seeing if there's bags of money they're missing out on, I'm pretty easy to find here.

Why no contact?

Sure they might just have had a problematic relationship with Dad and just don't care (and not their fault, he was a curmudgeon)

BUT: someone did help him with his book before, trying to scan photos into Word for him. When I saw that, I realized someone did care about him.

So what happened to all his stuff? He had some interesting bowls from Nepal...interesting mementos of his travels.

Did his family gather up stuff? Was there an estate sale?

They could have easily found my email in his computer, and asked for control of his book. That would seem normal.

But instead: I've heard nothing.

Be interesting to hear from them. I would do whatever they want.
I would never do what Blevins wants. I like the idea of him getting worked up by being forced to see his threats be zero value.

I have this heavy weight.
A dude whose life's work took a bunch a time. And railing about not being able to get it published.

Now it's the albatross around my neck. What to do with it when I'm dead? :)
(I control the KDP/Amazon account it's published under)

I'd love to hear from the son/daughter. I would just hand things over.
In terms of self-examination, I do ponder why Sheridan trusted me with his life's work. I don't think I've abused that trust.

One could just write this all off as a crazy dude and that it doesn't matter. But to some degree it does matter...just because there was some human-to-human connection that should be respected. But I'm unclear about it all.

Do you want to contact Ginger and Sheridan III? We can do that in two weeks when I'm back from NY.
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7447 on: October 12, 2021, 12:12:47 PM »
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Do you want to contact Ginger and Sheridan III? We can do that in two weeks when I'm back from NY.

It would probably be a good thing to do. Although there's been a history of hassling them re: Cooper things.
It'd be good to be able to just to complete my interactions with Sheridan.
 

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7448 on: October 12, 2021, 12:16:56 PM »
I agree. Even if you don't mention DBC, learning more about their relationship with their father would be valuable.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7449 on: October 12, 2021, 08:16:20 PM »
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I mentioned Brett Maurer's first jump ever being off El Cap (sometime early '80s). A base jumper with a lowish base # PM'ed me 13 years ago with a couple more details of the story, which is truly a great story.


(Sorry. Every time I went to answer this, the damn phone would ring or something.)


I remember when Randy put Brett off El Cap. That was a ballsy move. They were both high dig climbers, and Randy was a jumper. To my mind, El Cap is a great first base jump for an experienced jumper. The exit is overhung, and it's tall so you have some freefall time and can track away from the wall, giving you plenty of room to deal with a possible off-heading opening. But I think for the same reason of it being tall it would not be the best place for a first jump for a non-jumper. Especially having him not track, and just fall stable. A common error in early freefall is that people tend to sit up a bit and backslide. That could be catastrophic. And it actually happened one time. Some people took this girl there once for her first base jump. She had some skydives, but not many. They told her the same thing, don't track, just fall. Well, she backslid into the wall and buttered herself down the face of it. Sweet girl, huge tragedy.

I was acquainted with Randy, and I knew RH.

I had another buddy we used to jump with who had over 100 base jumps before he made his first skydive.

And then there was this guy... Remember the Die Hard movie and the building Nakatomi Plaza? Well that building is Fox Plaza (owned by 20th Century Fox) and is on Avenue of the Stars in Century City. We used to jump that thing constantly while it was under construction. My buddy I used to jump it with was working on direct-bag techniques (a direct deployment method similar in effect to static line). So I would hold the deployment bag and put him off, then I would freefall it. But in between... My buddy had this friend, a neighbor kid of sixteen he used to surf with, who had never skydived. My buddy would pack up a round reserve for him and I would PCA him off. (Pilot Chute Assist is another direct deployment method where the guy on top holds the pilot chute as the jumper goes. You hold the pilot cute until line stretch then let it go.) So when my buddy would go, I would pull out the bag and we were in constant communication as he climbed over the rail to the exit spot and jumped - "Right... Clear... 100 percent..." Well, this kid was athletic and competent, but he was shy and rarely said a word. He would just hand me the pilot chute, climb over and go. I would talk him through it, but I don't think he listened, he just went. Funny memories...
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7450 on: October 12, 2021, 10:25:30 PM »
In terms of "buttering yourself across the face"

I was reminded of this video when someone asked what's the common failure modes in base jumping.

I don't know if dudeman knows of Aamon McNeely, but he's another climber who sidelined into base jumping.
Don't know him, has a reputation as a wild man, but he's done some pretty impressive stuff.
I would say he's pretty experienced.

In this video, he jumped, and somehow his canopy turned into the wall. Impacted his leg and destroyed a leg
(as in bones and flesh sticking out)

This raw video is really gruesume. I'll just post the link where he's fuzzed out the image of his leg


The crazy thing is that he's sitting on a ledge, knowing he just destroyed his leg and he's able to video himself.


The amazing thing is, docs fixed the leg and he returned to jumping. This accident was 2013.
In 2017, he had another accident. This time they amputated the leg.
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He's currently base jumping still. just with one leg.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 10:56:41 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7451 on: October 12, 2021, 10:31:32 PM »
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I mentioned Brett Maurer's first jump ever being off El Cap (sometime early '80s). A base jumper with a lowish base # PM'ed me 13 years ago with a couple more details of the story, which is truly a great story.


(Sorry. Every time I went to answer this, the damn phone would ring or something.)


I remember when Randy put Brett off El Cap. That was a ballsy move. They were both high dig climbers, and Randy was a jumper. To my mind, El Cap is a great first base jump for an experienced jumper. The exit is overhung, and it's tall so you have some freefall time and can track away from the wall, giving you plenty of room to deal with a possible off-heading opening. But I think for the same reason of it being tall it would not be the best place for a first jump for a non-jumper. Especially having him not track, and just fall stable. A common error in early freefall is that people tend to sit up a bit and backslide. That could be catastrophic. And it actually happened one time. Some people took this girl there once for her first base jump. She had some skydives, but not many. They told her the same thing, don't track, just fall. Well, she backslid into the wall and buttered herself down the face of it. Sweet girl, huge tragedy.

I was acquainted with Randy, and I knew RH.

I had another buddy we used to jump with who had over 100 base jumps before he made his first skydive.

And then there was this guy... Remember the Die Hard movie and the building Nakatomi Plaza? Well that building is Fox Plaza (owned by 20th Century Fox) and is on Avenue of the Stars in Century City. We used to jump that thing constantly while it was under construction. My buddy I used to jump it with was working on direct-bag techniques (a direct deployment method similar in effect to static line). So I would hold the deployment bag and put him off, then I would freefall it. But in between... My buddy had this friend, a neighbor kid of sixteen he used to surf with, who had never skydived. My buddy would pack up a round reserve for him and I would PCA him off. (Pilot Chute Assist is another direct deployment method where the guy on top holds the pilot chute as the jumper goes. You hold the pilot cute until line stretch then let it go.) So when my buddy would go, I would pull out the bag and we were in constant communication as he climbed over the rail to the exit spot and jumped - "Right... Clear... 100 percent..." Well, this kid was athletic and competent, but he was shy and rarely said a word. He would just hand me the pilot chute, climb over and go. I would talk him through it, but I don't think he listened, he just went. Funny memories...


Thanks for filling in the blanks on the old stories. Good stuff. Yeah every person is different! Which makes it hard to generalize when you're talking about something unique or complicated.

"He would just hand me the pilot chute, climb over and go"

!!!
Die Harder!
 

Offline georger

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7452 on: October 12, 2021, 11:24:53 PM »
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In terms of "buttering yourself across the face"

I was reminded of this video when someone asked what's the common failure modes in base jumping.

I don't know if dudeman knows of Aamon McNeely, but he's another climber who sidelined into base jumping.
Don't know him, has a reputation as a wild man, but he's done some pretty impressive stuff.
I would say he's pretty experienced.

In this video, he jumped, and somehow his canopy turned into the wall. Impacted his leg and destroyed a leg
(as in bones and flesh sticking out)

This raw video is really gruesume. I'll just post the link where he's fuzzed out the image of his leg


The crazy thing is that he's sitting on a ledge, knowing he just destroyed his leg and he's able to video himself.


The amazing thing is, docs fixed the leg and he returned to jumping. This accident was 2013.
In 2017, he had another accident. This time they amputated the leg.
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

He's currently base jumping still. just with one leg.

Dedication ?  ::)
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7453 on: October 12, 2021, 11:29:15 PM »
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Dedication ?  ::)

well, "dedication" seems like blind adherence to some dogma.

McNeely summed up his rationale/motivation himself:
 
“So, the question is; Do we stand up and take the risks and have a blast enjoying our passions?
Or, do we hide in the shadows, being afraid of what might happen if we are so bold [as to] to follow our dreams?”

and he also said:

'There's a saying I really like: “I refuse to tip-toe through life only to arrive safely at death.” That perfectly sums up my attitude.'
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 11:31:41 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline snowmman

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Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7454 on: October 13, 2021, 12:18:55 AM »
Just noticed that TK detected a lot of brass on the tie, but excluded it because he couldn't rule out contamination without more work.
But maybe the brass was not contamination? Wondering if it might support "refrigeration" shop more.

Finding lots of brass may be as important as finding Ti.

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"Anecdotal, many particles of brass were also found on the sticky stubs and in the vacuum filters used to collect the particles. They are not included in this analysis because brass screw plugs were used to seal the sample filters. In order to rule out contamination, micro-x-ray fluorescence must be used to determine the exact type of brass for both the plugs and the particles, but these Fig. 6  Sprial aluminum chip. One of two found on the tie. (Length = 1.6mm)particles have yet to be analyzed."

Also: the size of the aluminum spiral chip was only 1/16" (two)
I wonder if the small size points away from a lathe or drill (TK's suggestion)
A controlled lathe/drill would produce longer spirals of aluminum?
1/16" is pretty small.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 12:24:37 AM by snowmman »
 
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