Poll

Do you believe Cooper lived or died. the option are below to cast a vote...

0% Cooper lived
6 (11.1%)
25% Cooper lived
4 (7.4%)
35% Cooper lived.
2 (3.7%)
50% Cooper lived
11 (20.4%)
75% Cooper lived
12 (22.2%)
100 Cooper lived
19 (35.2%)

Total Members Voted: 49

Author Topic: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case  (Read 588851 times)

Online snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1716
  • Thanked: 154 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7395 on: October 08, 2021, 08:14:52 PM »
Here is the article from the March 1981 Parachutist pages 34 and 35
After doing a couple of 4-way hulahoop sessions in my backyard air tunnel, I looked thru my library and found it. Going to rob a bank later tonite.

Boenish is indeed shown there on page 33.
 

Online snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1716
  • Thanked: 154 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7396 on: October 08, 2021, 08:20:37 PM »
The article seems to explain why the stairway fabric was missing. Seems like it ripped off? Maybe they ripped off the 2nd piece to match. They apparently had flaps and gear down, to fly at 140 knots. They paid for two loads with the 727 at $65,000.
So wonder if they did two jumps?

Note Donnelly walked the stairs alone here, apparently, to spot.

'Donnelly said that one of the hairiest moments of filming came when he stepped down the stairway to spot the 727.
The plane was over Yosemite Park, some 20 miles from their target area.

"Suddenly, a 10-foot section of canvas which had been stretched across the side of the stairway came loose, whipping around and taking my legs out from under me," he said. "Fortunately, Ray grabbed my hand and pulled me back in. Otherwise I would have made an illegal jump into Yosemite. And it would have taken days to get out of there"



 

Online snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1716
  • Thanked: 154 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7397 on: October 08, 2021, 08:25:50 PM »
I attached a crop of the 2nd pic from the Parachutist article.


Note it is point-of-view from the photographer who jumped first, pointing at Cooper in the air. The photographer is probably Boenish.


But look at the aft stairs. You can still see the handrails.

From what I can see, the stairs didn't slam shut and stay that way. At least not at the time of the still. I suppose it would be nice to have the images from the movie in this sequence, to see if there is more.

This reminds me of the picture on the cover of Life magazine with the airstairs open.
 

Online snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1716
  • Thanked: 154 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7398 on: October 08, 2021, 08:49:21 PM »
I just rented the movie on youtube.
the jump sequence is at the beginning.

interestingly they have a chase plane filming from the side, and air stairs are open (halfway) with no one on them, but only one of the fabric stair sides is missing.

So the Parachutist story is correct. They lost one side while filming..and you can see just a little piece left on the 2nd side (not shown in the prior pics)

They must have made two jumps, because there is no videographer jumping first in this video sequence.

The jumper is very stable on the back flip. No turbulence or chaotic behavior or tumbling.

I should make a snip of the video of the jump and put it on youtube.

The stairs moved up after the jump, but they did not slam shut like Robert99 said they would.
I think Robert99's claim that the stairs always slam shut on jumping off the stairs, has been disproven.



the video shows Cooper backing down the stairs. I attached some stills

Remember this is a real reenactment. It is not some artificial thing. Real jumper, real 727. 140 knots, wheels and flaps down.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 08:57:20 PM by snowmman »
 

Online snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1716
  • Thanked: 154 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7399 on: October 08, 2021, 08:53:26 PM »
looking at the jumper,
I'm wondering if the FBI test used a load that was too heavy

so maybe their heavy load opened the stairs more than a real jumper like in this movie

that led to a "more compressed" spring effect when the load was released.

In any case, the movie clearly shows that the stairs don't always slam shut when a human jumper jumps.

Remember: the primary data from the FBI was not a human jumper, but a simulated load.


So saying that the FBI test definitely shows when Cooper jumped because of pressure bumps, is really just a lie.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2021, 08:58:22 PM by snowmman »
 

Offline georger

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3066
  • Thanked: 440 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7400 on: October 08, 2021, 11:13:29 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
looking at the jumper,
I'm wondering if the FBI test used a load that was too heavy

so maybe their heavy load opened the stairs more than a real jumper like in this movie

that led to a "more compressed" spring effect when the load was released.

In any case, the movie clearly shows that the stairs don't always slam shut when a human jumper jumps.

Remember: the primary data from the FBI was not a human jumper, but a simulated load.


So saying that the FBI test definitely shows when Cooper jumped because of pressure bumps, is really just a lie.

I wondered the same thing. But the Test did prove a pressure spike occurs.
 

Online snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1716
  • Thanked: 154 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7401 on: October 08, 2021, 11:36:18 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
looking at the jumper,
I'm wondering if the FBI test used a load that was too heavy

so maybe their heavy load opened the stairs more than a real jumper like in this movie

that led to a "more compressed" spring effect when the load was released.

In any case, the movie clearly shows that the stairs don't always slam shut when a human jumper jumps.

Remember: the primary data from the FBI was not a human jumper, but a simulated load.


So saying that the FBI test definitely shows when Cooper jumped because of pressure bumps, is really just a lie.

I wondered the same thing. But the Test did prove a pressure spike occurs.

One test with a certain setup did that.

The extrapolation to: Cooper caused a pressure bump up north and that was when he jumped, was the erroneous interpretation of the experiment.

There is no way that the FBI experiment proved that Cooper jumped up north (coupled with the reports from the pilots)

People were biased to believing Cooper was a whuffo jumping in the middle of nowhere. That bias colored the interpretation of everyone.

If you instead assume he knew what he was doing, you would have second-guessed the experiment more.

I'm amazed the movie jump wasn't analyzed more.

It's as valid an experiment (even more so) than anything the FBI did.

 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9205
  • Thanked: 969 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7402 on: October 09, 2021, 12:55:46 AM »
 

Online snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1716
  • Thanked: 154 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7403 on: October 09, 2021, 01:04:42 AM »
thanks shutter. that's very good!

I wasn't up to date on screen capturing a video from youtube, but I managed to put something up on youtube also of the jump sequence.
I didn't include sound, but that sound was probably all added in anyhow...

I called it "N690WA jump sequence" because that was the right registration number on the plane
My snippet is probably a bit longer. But you can see the aft stair doesn't snap up shut. It goes up about half way or so.



more detail about the jump:

according to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


i N690WA, did it belong  to Fleming International at the time of the jump?
(movie release was 1981)

N690WA   Tokyomenka America   31.12.79   Left Fleet
N690WA   Fleming International   23.10.81   Left Fleet

According to wikipedia
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Aircraft in the film
The Boeing 727-173C (c/n 19504-527, N690WA) leased from World Airways, played the part of the Northwest Orient Airlines Boeing 727 featured in the sky hijacking. Painted in the fictitious "Northern Pacific" company livery, it appeared in the first scene, being photographed by pilot Clay Lacy from his Learjet. Four professional parachutists performed the parachute jump from the rear exit stair of the Boeing 727.[


So the chase plane that filmed the jump was a Learjet. and the plane was a Boeing 727-173C

edit: airliners.net has the C/n (msn) as 19504 / 427, not 527
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 01:50:23 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline Robert99

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1508
  • Thanked: 170 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7404 on: October 09, 2021, 02:28:37 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
thanks shutter. that's very good!

I wasn't up to date on screen capturing a video from youtube, but I managed to put something up on youtube also of the jump sequence.
I didn't include sound, but that sound was probably all added in anyhow...

I called it "N690WA jump sequence" because that was the right registration number on the plane
My snippet is probably a bit longer. But you can see the aft stair doesn't snap up shut. It goes up about half way or so.



more detail about the jump:

according to You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login


i N690WA, did it belong  to Fleming International at the time of the jump?
(movie release was 1981)

N690WA   Tokyomenka America   31.12.79   Left Fleet
N690WA   Fleming International   23.10.81   Left Fleet

According to wikipedia
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Aircraft in the film
The Boeing 727-173C (c/n 19504-527, N690WA) leased from World Airways, played the part of the Northwest Orient Airlines Boeing 727 featured in the sky hijacking. Painted in the fictitious "Northern Pacific" company livery, it appeared in the first scene, being photographed by pilot Clay Lacy from his Learjet. Four professional parachutists performed the parachute jump from the rear exit stair of the Boeing 727.[


So the chase plane that filmed the jump was a Learjet. and the plane was a Boeing 727-173C

Okay, let's talk about the above posts.

Shutter says the airliner was doing 150 Knots in the movie clip.  Was that Indicated Airspeed, True Airspeed, or what?  What was the altitude, the outside temperature at that altitude, and what was the local sea-level barometric pressure?

The hijacked airliner was flying at 170 Knots Indicated Airspeed which was about 194 Knots True Airspeed (or about 225 MPH) when corrected for the altitude, sea-level pressure, and ambient temperature at that altitude.

The movie jump was planned by people who knew what they were doing and they prepared the aircraft accordingly.  Except they should have also removed the modesty panels.

In the movie, it looks like the stairs have hydraulic or pneumatic reactions following the jump.  So my guess is that hydraulic power was being applied to the stairs during the jump by someone who knew how to operate the stairs and that they were basically in a down but not locked configuration.  In the Cooper jump and FBI tests, the stairs were in free fall.

The movie Boeing 727-173C is apparently an all-cargo aircraft or a convertible one that can be rapidly configured to carry either all passengers or all cargo or a combination of cabin cargo plus some passengers.  The "c/n 19504-527" indicates that the 19504 was the Boeing production number and my guess is that the 527 may mean that it was the 527th 727 produced or it may just mean a specific configuration that was specified by the original buyer.

But to make a long story short, I do not see anything that would change my original comments about the stairs and the FBI tests.  That is, there was just one pressure bump and that was when Cooper jumped.     
 

Online snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1716
  • Thanked: 154 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7405 on: October 09, 2021, 02:54:13 AM »
here's just a little story to flesh out something. I figure after 13 years the statute of limitations is over. :)

I mentioned Brett Maurer's first jump ever being off El Cap (sometime early '80s). A base jumper with a lowish base # PM'ed me 13 years ago with a couple more details of the story, which is truly a great story. I was sworn to not posting details, because he felt there were too many losers on DZ.com at the time.

But hell, people die, and these kinds of things are real history. And they're fun details to know.
I get sick of people acting like they know what risk analysis/management is.

as told to me:

Randy Leavitt took Brett Maurer to the wind tunnel in Las Vegas and he did about 45 minutes in there.

and being a 5.12-ish climber, Brett was a quick study.

when Brett jumped, Randy just had him do a boxman, no atttempt at tracking.

Brett actually did about 15 degrees right (you can see that in picture #2 in the magazine article) and he _corrected_ it, then pulled exactly as planned at about 9 second, as i recall... but whatever delay it was, he pulled exactly according to plan, navigated accurately to a good landing in the meadow.


---

So, I suppose you can process that as you wish, in terms of how likely it is that Cooper died or not :)
« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 02:56:37 AM by snowmman »
 

Online snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1716
  • Thanked: 154 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7406 on: October 09, 2021, 03:01:21 AM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Okay, let's talk about the above posts.

Shutter says the airliner was doing 150 Knots in the movie clip.  Was that Indicated Airspeed, True Airspeed, or what?  What was the altitude, the outside temperature at that altitude, and what was the local sea-level barometric pressure?

The hijacked airliner was flying at 170 Knots Indicated Airspeed which was about 194 Knots True Airspeed (or about 225 MPH) when corrected for the altitude, sea-level pressure, and ambient temperature at that altitude.

The movie jump was planned by people who knew what they were doing and they prepared the aircraft accordingly.  Except they should have also removed the modesty panels.

In the movie, it looks like the stairs have hydraulic or pneumatic reactions following the jump.  So my guess is that hydraulic power was being applied to the stairs during the jump by someone who knew how to operate the stairs and that they were basically in a down but not locked configuration.  In the Cooper jump and FBI tests, the stairs were in free fall.

The movie Boeing 727-173C is apparently an all-cargo aircraft or a convertible one that can be rapidly configured to carry either all passengers or all cargo or a combination of cabin cargo plus some passengers.  The "c/n 19504-527" indicates that the 19504 was the Boeing production number and my guess is that the 527 may mean that it was the 527th 727 produced or it may just mean a specific configuration that was specified by the original buyer.

But to make a long story short, I do not see anything that would change my original comments about the stairs and the FBI tests.  That is, there was just one pressure bump and that was when Cooper jumped.   

Fair enough. You like the FBI test.
I dunno why you like it so much. It doesn't seem conclusive to me.

I also don't know why you say there was only one  pressure bump. There's nothing you can reliably show or say about that.

« Last Edit: October 09, 2021, 03:03:08 AM by snowmman »
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9205
  • Thanked: 969 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7407 on: October 09, 2021, 11:49:57 AM »
I've mentioned in the past of 3 events taking place. the opening of the stairs, going down the stairs and the retraction of the stairs. then you would have minor events during the flight with movement of the stairs..

Only one event would cause major disruption of air or pressure and only one event would push pressure into the cabin. this would be the stairs retracting. the opening of the stairs would also be a major event, actually, the opening of the bulkhead door was a major event according to Rataczak. they were in a sealed environment until the bulkhead door was opened and the dropping of the stairs early in the flight.

The movie jump. I don't know the actual speed the plane was flying with the final take used the the film. the stuntman is the one who said he would not jump past the speed of 150 knots. the removal of the skirting was probably done because you wouldn't see the jumper very well in the shot.

Wind loads are tricky. on the ground you have a vast amount of variations in determining wind loads. testing is based on 150 mph winds with a 3 second gust. if not mistaken 100 lbs per square foot was applied the the back of the stairs at 170 knots. that's several thousand lbs pushing against the stairs. on the ground you have positive and negative loads. you can actually watch a window breath in a major hurricane. the only + or - would be pressure inside the aircraft.
 

Online snowmman

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1716
  • Thanked: 154 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7408 on: October 09, 2021, 12:04:03 PM »
You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
the removal of the skirting was probably done because you wouldn't see the jumper very well in the shot.


Just a detail.
There were apparently 2 flights (2 loads) according to the Parachutist article.
The fabric on one handrail tore off while spotting over Yosemite (20 mi from DZ) as described in article.

On the long opening sequence, there is no fabric on one rail, and some fabric (most gone) flapping on the second rail.
In the long sequence, once he jumps, you can tell it shifts to the point of view of the videographer who jumped before, backwards (as shown in the photo) ...that's the jump that has no fabric on either rail.

So i'm guessing they did one jump for the long sequence filmed from the lear jet.

then another jump (same day? or different day) with the videographer jumping off backwards first, to get the POV show we have the still of.

There's no shot in the movie sequence that shows absolutely no fabric left. that's only in the Parachutist article pic.

my guess is they lost fabric on the first jump, flew back, picked up jumpers (maybe 2nd day) and removed the ragged fabric that was remaining, so that it was clean.

I don't think "no fabric" was planned. They probably had to pay for the damage they caused. ($60,000 cost per flight per the article..maybe they didn't get charged)

Surprisingly, they repainted the plane with the NPA livery just for the shot.

wikipedia has a good history of the movie. No one involved like the result, it had got bumped around to different director/script writer.
 

Offline Shutter

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9205
  • Thanked: 969 times
Re: Clues, Documents And Evidence About The Case
« Reply #7409 on: October 09, 2021, 12:06:58 PM »
The fabric would slowly deteriorate. it wouldn't come off in one piece. if not mistaken the stuntman said they did something like 10 takes..don't quote me on that, but it's what I recall..