Author Topic: Book Discussion About DB Cooper  (Read 86052 times)

Offline Bruce A. Smith

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #390 on: May 04, 2021, 07:56:45 PM »
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Something made Tosaw play his Columbia cards where he did - spent a ton of money - his Nile Kinnick search cost him far less - why did Tosaw place his bets where he did? I doubt it was just for publicity's sake. Tosaw told his divers he had hard FBI info he was following!  What did he think he had and from whom?  ;)


One possibility is that Richard was getting leads from Mike Tosaw in Seattle. Can that be proven? Maybe. We've got to talk with people who were there who can give us an informed perspective on what Mike did, what he knew, and his general behavior. Calling Bob Fuhriman seems to be in order. Will do shortly.

We also have to get our hands on the 300 pages that Charlie Farrell wrote and kept private. That could greatly inform what was going on in Seattle that never made it into these 302s that are seeping into our fingers these days. I'll re-visit this issue with GG in the near future.

I would greatly enjoy a round-table discussion at CC21 with GG, Fuhriman, Detlor, Bob Sale and Sid Rubin and all the other FBI agents active in Seattle during these early days. I hope it happens.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2021, 07:57:42 PM by Bruce A. Smith »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #391 on: May 04, 2021, 09:15:41 PM »
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That map seems to show the dropzone ending near Orchards at the south, not the river. I wonder why the memo says one thing, but the map indicates another. Perhaps the map is the original that requires amending with Soderlind's calculations.

BTW, thanks for the spelling correction on his name, G.

and 1-9-72
OK, but neither map indicates a search area extending south to the Columbia River as indicated in Tosaw’s book.

Why would they revise the maps they had?  They had several maps and tons of dialogue between all parties involved in tracking 305 and estimating a drop zone ?

What I see missing from the records, is any mention of a local search in the Portland-Vancouver area, or much consideration that Cooper might not have died during the jump, or that he might be in transit back to where it all started at SEATAC.  No 302s, no interviews by anyone that reveal there were such a consideration or searches, no real mention of the robbery at Heisson, . . . no reports from deputies that such a search was even considered or conducted. That is a glaring omission!  Not maps showing the Columbia per se. The 302s say what they say and we know the Columbia was included in a possible search zone. The whole area from Orchards to the Columbia was in play early. It just wasnt being given any real attention or a search, apparently.

If no one else considered the Columbia, Tosaw certainly did. Let's consult the Cooper Cult leaders here and see what they think or say. Probably nothing.

Something made Tosaw play his Columbia cards where he did - spent a ton of money - his Nile Kinnick search cost him far less - why did Tosaw place his bets where he did? I doubt it was just for publicity's sake. Tosaw told his divers he had hard FBI info he was following!  What did he think he had and from whom?  ;)

Correct. That’s why I posted this after:

Quote
Yes, my hope is that eventually in the 302s we get confirmation on Tosaw’s claim that Soderlind calculated a drop zone extending south to the Columbia. So far, nothing.
 

Offline georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #392 on: May 05, 2021, 12:14:32 AM »
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That map seems to show the dropzone ending near Orchards at the south, not the river. I wonder why the memo says one thing, but the map indicates another. Perhaps the map is the original that requires amending with Soderlind's calculations.

BTW, thanks for the spelling correction on his name, G.

and 1-9-72
OK, but neither map indicates a search area extending south to the Columbia River as indicated in Tosaw’s book.

Why would they revise the maps they had?  They had several maps and tons of dialogue between all parties involved in tracking 305 and estimating a drop zone ?

What I see missing from the records, is any mention of a local search in the Portland-Vancouver area, or much consideration that Cooper might not have died during the jump, or that he might be in transit back to where it all started at SEATAC.  No 302s, no interviews by anyone that reveal there were such a consideration or searches, no real mention of the robbery at Heisson, . . . no reports from deputies that such a search was even considered or conducted. That is a glaring omission!  Not maps showing the Columbia per se. The 302s say what they say and we know the Columbia was included in a possible search zone. The whole area from Orchards to the Columbia was in play early. It just wasnt being given any real attention or a search, apparently.

If no one else considered the Columbia, Tosaw certainly did. Let's consult the Cooper Cult leaders here and see what they think or say. Probably nothing.

Something made Tosaw play his Columbia cards where he did - spent a ton of money - his Nile Kinnick search cost him far less - why did Tosaw place his bets where he did? I doubt it was just for publicity's sake. Tosaw told his divers he had hard FBI info he was following!  What did he think he had and from whom?  ;)

Correct. That’s why I posted this after:

Quote
Yes, my hope is that eventually in the 302s we get confirmation on Tosaw’s claim that Soderlind calculated a drop zone extending south to the Columbia. So far, nothing.

The first public indication of any interest by Tosaw in the Cooper case was when he called the Daily Iowan Newspaper in March 1980, a small student run university newspaper in those days, covering Two-saw's announced plans to find and raise the Nile Kinnick plane and have it installed as a memorial to Kinnick outside the Kinnick Football Stadium at Iowa City. Tosaw's proposal had stirred controversy in this State and at Iowa City. Tosaw claimed to have Kinnick family support, but even that was being disputed.

Without any preamble Tosaw called up the DI and got a student reporter on the phone and 'announced' ...  “I have retired. I am now interested in the DB Cooper case. I may write a book about the Cooper case…”  [Daily Iowan interview re- Nile Kinnick plane, Richard Tosaw March 1980 ] The reporter asked Tosaw if he had any Kinnick news to which Tosaw replied: "no". Tosaw said thanks and hung up! This news was passed on to the Iowa City Press Citizen but they chose not to print it.

Whoopie!

Tosaw eventually called several other newspapers as 1980 went by and gave them the same news. Finally in March of 1982 Tosaw arrives at Portland and starts an actual search ...

From my notes:

1982 Feb – “An attorney from Modesto CA with a taste for adventure is launching a search for the body of 1971 skyjacker D.B. Cooper. Richard Tosaw 56 is offering a $25,000 reward for anyone who can produce Cooper’s remains. Tosaw will be in Vancouver on Thursday to begin organizing a search for the remains … The search is planned for area forests this summer. … Tosaw has created ‘Research Publishing Co.’  to market a book on his search. The preferred title is “I Found DB Cooper” … He has placed classified ads in Northwest papers offering his reward good until July 1, 1982. The Modesto Bee Newspaper confirmed Tosaw is a long-time attorney there with extensive real estate holdings. …”    [Feb 10, 1982 Spokesman-Review Spokane WA]

1982 Feb-March: Numerous calls to media and people familiar with the Columbia looking for divers, advice (much of which he rejects), . .. 
 
1982 March 10 -  earliest report of an actual Tosaw search: – “The quest to track down legendary hijacker DB Cooper has been handed over to a young boat owner Blake Payne prepared to dive for the $200,000 ransom money of the 1971 hijacking. Blake Payne 22 will take to the water Tuesday to drag the Columbia River in the search financed by former FBI Agent Richard Tosaw now a Ceres CA attorney. Payne’s hiring hinged on his scuba expertise because Tosaw believes the $200,000 ransom Cooper snared Thanksgiving Eve 11 years ago from the hijack of a Northwest Airlines 727 lurks somewhere in Oregon waters.” [March 10 by Clyde Jabin: Portland OR, Assoc Press. Photo: Payne and Tosaw examining chart on Payne’s boat.]

1982 Nov. 6, 1982 – republication of  Clyde Jabin March 10 article! - “Blake Payne, 22, will take to the water Tuesday to drag the Columbia River in the search financed by former FBI-agent Richard Tosaw, now a Ceres, Calif., attorney. The only solid clue to Cooper's disappearance was the 1980 finding of $5,800 of the $20 bills on a beach nine miles west of Vancouver, Wash. Until then FBI agents conjectured that Cooper left his plane somewhere near Merwin Lake on the Lewis River, southwest of Mount St. Helens. They concluded the middle-aged Cooper probably drowned or died of exposure in the Cascade Mountains. Tosaw figures that Cooper came down somewhere near the beach where the rotted packets of bills were found. He believes a Corps of Engineers' dredge stirred up a portion of the money, which was then carried to the beach on farming property owned by the Fazio Brothers. Payne and his 27-foot boat have been hired to confirm that theory. 'He's paid me for two weeks so far and wants me for 30 days,' said Payne of Tosaw's mission. Even if the young diver comes up with nothing, he is destined to become a part of D.B. Cooper lore, as Tosaw is writing a book on his ransom money quest. [republish of March 10 article by Clyde Jabin: Portland OR, Assoc Press. Photo: Payne and Tosaw examining chart on Payne’s boat.]

1982 Nov 23,  UPI  -  “Richard Tosaw who is writing a book on the skyjacking … Water is lowest this time of year… Dragging the river and looking at wing dams… 'So far all they have found is inner tubes, tires, household appliances, pieces of trees and other articles,' he said. 'It is going to be interesting if they find anything (from the skyjacking).'Tosaw is hoping boat owner Blake Payne and crewman Bill Sweeney will either find more of the money, the bank money bag or the parachute. then he has done extensive research -- interviewing the six crew members on the Northwest Airlines Flight 305 that was hijacked on a Portland to Seattle run and other people involved in the case. He also surveyed 100 parachutists on whether they thought Cooper could have survived the jump from the rear door of a Boeing 727. He said 70 percent of those he checked believe the skyjacker could have survived frigid temperatures if he had served in the military as a parachutist, as Tosaw theorizes. 'He was in his early 40s at the time of the skyjacking, which means he would have been at the right age to be in the Korean War, possibly as a Green Beret,' Tosaw said. 'He learned his parachuting somewhere.' The attorney said his view of Cooper as a veteran was also based on the skyjacker's choice of parachutes airline officials provided. He said Cooper took a khaki-colored back chute rather than a 'more comfortable' white civilian chest chute he also was given. Tosaw said Cooper did not appear to be a 'loner' whose disappearance would not have been noticed. He said he thinks Cooper returned home after jettisoning the heavy money bag loose after landing in the river. 'He had a mother, father, girlfriend or wife who would have reported him missing otherwise,' Tosaw said. [ Clyde Jabin, UPI, 1982 Nov 23 ]

1982 Farnsworth -   “In 1980, when a young boy found the $5,880 in deteriorated ransom money along the Columbia River, attorney and former FBI Agent Richard Tosaw suspected that Cooper probably landed near that site. In 1982, Tosow arranged to have the river dragged from the area where the cash was found, down to Portland, Oregon, along the jet’s flight path. A 12-foot-wide grappling hook called the “Cooper Scooper” raked the river. It pulled up a bone, rope and cloth-covered nylon, but there was no indication that the items were from Cooper’s gear or that the bone was even human.
Tosow spent a significant amount of his own money, at least $10,000, investigating the case. His search focused on the parachute. “My theory is that the parachute would be easiest to find because it’s 28 feet across and with nylon cords and a canvas harness,” Tosaw said. Tosaw also believed that Cooper had skydiving experience in the military and thus was probably a strong swimmer, too. He believed if Cooper had landed in the Columbia River, he would have been able to remove his gear and money and swim to shore.
Though Tosaw’s search was fairly thorough, non-jumpers investigating a parachuting scene may not know what to look for and may not recognize a ripcord handle or a spring-loaded pilot chute. And it’s unknown whether Cooper even deployed the Navy pilot emergency rig he wore. Furthermore, as most experienced jumpers know, even a large, cutaway canopy is not always obviously visible from an airplane or the ground, and can be very hard to find even when its general whereabouts are known. [Farnsworth article] ……….. 

         
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 12:19:46 AM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #393 on: May 05, 2021, 01:16:38 AM »
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Something made Tosaw play his Columbia cards where he did - spent a ton of money - his Nile Kinnick search cost him far less - why did Tosaw place his bets where he did? I doubt it was just for publicity's sake. Tosaw told his divers he had hard FBI info he was following!  What did he think he had and from whom?  ;)


One possibility is that Richard was getting leads from Mike Tosaw in Seattle. Can that be proven? Maybe. We've got to talk with people who were there who can give us an informed perspective on what Mike did, what he knew, and his general behavior. Calling Bob Fuhriman seems to be in order. Will do shortly.

We also have to get our hands on the 300 pages that Charlie Farrell wrote and kept private. That could greatly inform what was going on in Seattle that never made it into these 302s that are seeping into our fingers these days. I'll re-visit this issue with GG in the near future.

I would greatly enjoy a round-table discussion at CC21 with GG, Fuhriman, Detlor, Bob Sale and Sid Rubin and all the other FBI agents active in Seattle during these early days. I hope it happens.

Tosaw told his divers he had hard FBI info he was following!  Tosaw's first public 'announcement' that he was now going to get involved in the Cooper case was to an inconspicuous student newspaper, The Daily Iowa at Iowa City, where he was known because of his previous announcements 'going to raise the Nile Kinnick plane and mount it outside Kinnick Stadium as a memorial ...' which was news to the State University of Iowa etc!  :o

Where was Tosaw's interest in the Cooper case BEFORE money was found at Tina Bar?  That's what many people asked.

Two years passed after Tosaw's call to the Daily Iowan in March 1980 before Tosaw would actually show up in Portland posting ads for divers. And one of the people Tosaw called was John Powelson the owner of Aquatic Sports Dive shop in Portland, OR. He didn't get much from John (because) ... Tosaw then placed ads in newspapers. He didn;t get much from John because John and other (salvage) people who had already been searching areas of the Columbia ever since the end of the excavation at Tina Bar way back in ... 1980. That's two years of searching prior to Tosaw showing up. Moreover, John already had a working relationship with Law Enforcement to report anything of interest, or found. John had a log book where he kept notes about what people were doing in their searches for Cooper and Cooper artifacts, going clear back to just after the hijacking in 1971! John had his own personal interest in the DB Cooper case which preceded Mr. Tosaw's interest by years. John was a personal friend of the lead FBI Agent at Vancouver - attended his retirement party. John had a working relationship with Agents in the Portland office...

John had a whole network of people who kept him informed of searches going on, all over Clark County. John also had a habit of not communicating with the news media, but only with Law Enforcement. John's theory was that Cooper had landed somewhere north of Vancouver then started walking in an effort to get back across the river to Portland, and in the process was relieved of his money, and perhaps of his life.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 01:23:49 AM by georger »
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #394 on: May 05, 2021, 02:32:19 AM »
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Something made Tosaw play his Columbia cards where he did - spent a ton of money - his Nile Kinnick search cost him far less - why did Tosaw place his bets where he did? I doubt it was just for publicity's sake. Tosaw told his divers he had hard FBI info he was following!  What did he think he had and from whom?  ;)


One possibility is that Richard was getting leads from Mike Tosaw in Seattle. Can that be proven? Maybe. We've got to talk with people who were there who can give us an informed perspective on what Mike did, what he knew, and his general behavior. Calling Bob Fuhriman seems to be in order. Will do shortly.

We also have to get our hands on the 300 pages that Charlie Farrell wrote and kept private. That could greatly inform what was going on in Seattle that never made it into these 302s that are seeping into our fingers these days. I'll re-visit this issue with GG in the near future.

I would greatly enjoy a round-table discussion at CC21 with GG, Fuhriman, Detlor, Bob Sale and Sid Rubin and all the other FBI agents active in Seattle during these early days. I hope it happens.

Tosaw told his divers he had hard FBI info he was following!  Tosaw's first public 'announcement' that he was now going to get involved in the Cooper case was to an inconspicuous student newspaper, The Daily Iowa at Iowa City, where he was known because of his previous announcements 'going to raise the Nile Kinnick plane and mount it outside Kinnick Stadium as a memorial ...' which was news to the State University of Iowa etc!  :o

Where was Tosaw's interest in the Cooper case BEFORE money was found at Tina Bar?  That's what many people asked.

Two years passed after Tosaw's call to the Daily Iowan in March 1980 before Tosaw would actually show up in Portland posting ads for divers. And one of the people Tosaw called was John Powelson the owner of Aquatic Sports Dive shop in Portland, OR. He didn't get much from John (because) ... Tosaw then placed ads in newspapers. He didn;t get much from John because John and other (salvage) people who had already been searching areas of the Columbia ever since the end of the excavation at Tina Bar way back in ... 1980. That's two years of searching prior to Tosaw showing up. Moreover, John already had a working relationship with Law Enforcement to report anything of interest, or found. John had a log book where he kept notes about what people were doing in their searches for Cooper and Cooper artifacts, going clear back to just after the hijacking in 1971! John had his own personal interest in the DB Cooper case which preceded Mr. Tosaw's interest by years. John was a personal friend of the lead FBI Agent at Vancouver - attended his retirement party. John had a working relationship with Agents in the Portland office...

John had a whole network of people who kept him informed of searches going on, all over Clark County. John also had a habit of not communicating with the news media, but only with Law Enforcement. John's theory was that Cooper had landed somewhere north of Vancouver then started walking in an effort to get back across the river to Portland, and in the process was relieved of his money, and perhaps of his life.

Georger, I am sure you will deny this since you have your own agenda to pursue. 

But everything in your last two posts above indicates that Tosaw, and apparently a number of other FBI agents, believed that Cooper jumped near Tena Bar.  Tosaw apparently believed it enough to spend about $10,000 (worth about $40,000 or $50,000 today) of his own money searching there for Cooper's body.

What is now known as the Western Flight Path was developed independently of Tosaw's efforts.  But Tosaw's search is one of a number of other things that independently support the Western Flight Path.

Nevertheless, you will continue to deny the validity of the WFP for no logical reason. ::)
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #395 on: May 05, 2021, 11:36:40 AM »
Did you even read Tosaw’s book? He actually believed Cooper ended up in the river near the I-5 bridge. Nothing in the book even remotely hints at a WFP.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #396 on: May 05, 2021, 12:35:01 PM »
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Did you even read Tosaw’s book? He actually believed Cooper ended up in the river near the I-5 bridge. Nothing in the book even remotely hints at a WFP.

My Dear Professor Chaucer, I not only have a copy of Tosaw's book but I have read it.  Can you say the same?

In case you missed the essence of Georger's recent posts, Tosaw's activities were concentrated in the Tena Bar area.  He apparently did this based on the best information that he and the FBI had at that time.

And Chaucer, as you should have heard by now, the WFP passes almost directly overhead of Tena Bar. 
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #397 on: May 05, 2021, 12:56:08 PM »
Quote
My Dear Professor Chaucer, I not only have a copy of Tosaw's book but I have read it.  Can you say the same?
Yes. I’ve read it multiple times including very recently. If you had read my first post on this thread, you’d know that. Perhaps you should read the book again since you are drawing some very inaccurate conclusions from it.
Quote
In case you missed the essence of Georger's recent posts, Tosaw's activities were concentrated in the Tena Bar area.  He apparently did this based on the best information that he and the FBI had at that time.
Yeah, maybe it has something to do with Cooper money being found on that location? Dunno. Just a guess.
Quote
And Chaucer, as you should have heard by now, the WFP passes almost directly overhead of Tena Bar.
Yeah, I heard, and further on it reaches the Candy Cane Forest before eventually passing directly over Oz.

To be clear, there is NOTHING in Tosaw’s book to suggest a Western Flight Path. He repeatedly says that 305 stayed on V-23 and eventually concludes that Cooper ended up in the Columbia near the I-5 bridge.

 

Offline georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #398 on: May 05, 2021, 02:06:34 PM »
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Did you even read Tosaw’s book? He actually believed Cooper ended up in the river near the I-5 bridge. Nothing in the book even remotely hints at a WFP.

My Dear Professor Chaucer, I not only have a copy of Tosaw's book but I have read it.  Can you say the same?

In case you missed the essence of Georger's recent posts, Tosaw's activities were concentrated in the Tena Bar area.  He apparently did this based on the best information that he and the FBI had at that time.

And Chaucer, as you should have heard by now, the WFP passes almost directly overhead of Tena Bar.

1. Tosaw never said anything about the FP. He accepted the FBI FP. Tosaw's theory in 1982-5 was that Cooper was a no-pull, went straight down into the Columbia somewhere upstream of Tina Bar and his body with the money still tied around Cooper's waste were snagged on the bottom upstream of T-Bar still available to be found.

2. By 1988 Tosaw is proclaiming that Cooper's body and the money are no longer on the bottom to be found - that the bottom has been swept clean hundreds of times by salmon fisherman nets (every year) and others sweeping and searching the bottom for other reasons. For these reasons Tosaw says he is now going to focus on searching wing dams.

3. Tina was interviewed by reporter Clyde Jabin (UPI) and described Tosaw as being "pushy and not too logical".

4. Tosaw's idea was that the Ingram find was bundles of bills Cooper pulled from the bag and offered the stews as a 'tip'; and the rest of the ransom was still tied around Cooper's waste waiting to be found on the bottom of the Columbia. Tosaw was after the money!

5. At some point ~1988, Tosaw decides the 1974 dredging accounts for the Ingram money being on Tina Bar.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 02:35:18 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #399 on: May 05, 2021, 02:14:58 PM »
. . . 1988 - Cooper's body and the money bag are no longer on the bottom to be found - must change my methods.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 02:16:50 PM by georger »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #400 on: May 05, 2021, 02:32:37 PM »
Tosaw switches to the dredging as the cause for the Ingram money being at Tina Bar ... date uncertain. (1988?) 
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #401 on: May 05, 2021, 03:54:43 PM »
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Tosaw switches to the dredging as the cause for the Ingram money being at Tina Bar ... date uncertain. (1988?)

Here we go again!

Georger, I didn't say anything about which flight path Tosaw supported, assuming that he supported any at all.

Chaucer apparently believes that Tosaw thought Cooper landed in the Columbia River near the I-5 bridge (which I don't believe existed in 1971).  Maybe Chaucer believes that also, but does Chaucer even know what Chaucer really believes?

So let's look at a couple of examples related to the I-5 bridge landing possibility.  First, note that Tena Bar is about three miles west (and some distance north) of the I-5 bridge.  The airliner was flying almost straight south (about 178 degrees true to be exact) on the WFP when it overflew Tena Bar. 

If Cooper landed in the water near the I-5 bridge as a no-pull, then the airliner would have been almost directly overhead of that bridge when he jumped.  If Cooper landed in the water near the I-5 bridge under canopy, then the airliner could have been as much as 8 miles or so southwest of that bridge when he jumped if he opened immediately.  If he delayed opening, then the airliner could have been somewhere between 8 miles southwest of the bridge.

Since the WFP passes only about three miles west of the I-5 bridge, the WFP stays in the mix.  Further, there is absolutely no reason for the airliner to be west of the WFP.

Anyone with even a basic understanding of fluid dynamics, the general energy equation, or even high school level physics, knows that if Cooper landed in the water near the I-5 bridge and drowned, then his body and equipment would have been on the Oregon side of the Columbia after the river turns north.  This means that when Cooper passed Tena Bar, his body and equipment would probably have been on the bottom of the shipping channel and very near the Oregon edge of the river.

Basically, the above means that there is no way on God's Green Earth that the money found at Tena Bar got there from normal river flow and dredging has been ruled out by several sources.  To put it another way, Cooper did not land in the Columbia River, drown, and then drift downstream.

I'm sure we will have to go over this again in another month or so.       
 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #402 on: May 05, 2021, 06:54:43 PM »
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Tosaw switches to the dredging as the cause for the Ingram money being at Tina Bar ... date uncertain. (1988?)

Here we go again!

Georger, I didn't say anything about which flight path Tosaw supported, assuming that he supported any at all.

Chaucer apparently believes that Tosaw thought Cooper landed in the Columbia River near the I-5 bridge (which I don't believe existed in 1971).  Maybe Chaucer believes that also, but does Chaucer even know what Chaucer really believes?

So let's look at a couple of examples related to the I-5 bridge landing possibility.  First, note that Tena Bar is about three miles west (and some distance north) of the I-5 bridge.  The airliner was flying almost straight south (about 178 degrees true to be exact) on the WFP when it overflew Tena Bar. 

If Cooper landed in the water near the I-5 bridge as a no-pull, then the airliner would have been almost directly overhead of that bridge when he jumped.  If Cooper landed in the water near the I-5 bridge under canopy, then the airliner could have been as much as 8 miles or so southwest of that bridge when he jumped if he opened immediately.  If he delayed opening, then the airliner could have been somewhere between 8 miles southwest of the bridge.

Since the WFP passes only about three miles west of the I-5 bridge, the WFP stays in the mix.  Further, there is absolutely no reason for the airliner to be west of the WFP.

Anyone with even a basic understanding of fluid dynamics, the general energy equation, or even high school level physics, knows that if Cooper landed in the water near the I-5 bridge and drowned, then his body and equipment would have been on the Oregon side of the Columbia after the river turns north.  This means that when Cooper passed Tena Bar, his body and equipment would probably have been on the bottom of the shipping channel and very near the Oregon edge of the river.

Basically, the above means that there is no way on God's Green Earth that the money found at Tena Bar got there from normal river flow and dredging has been ruled out by several sources.  To put it another way, Cooper did not land in the Columbia River, drown, and then drift downstream.

I'm sure we will have to go over this again in another month or so.       

Just a note Robert that the Interstate bridge was finished in 1917 as a 2 lane bridge connecting Oregon/Washington.
It was enlarged to its present width in 1958 and it’s been called both I 5 and Interstate bridge. I remember as it was a toll bridge when I graduated in 1959. Perhaps you are thinking of the I 205 (Glenn Jackson ) which wasn’t in existence in 1971,
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #403 on: May 05, 2021, 10:14:19 PM »
Quote
Chaucer apparently believes that Tosaw thought Cooper landed in the Columbia River near the I-5 bridge (which I don't believe existed in 1971).

Tosaw’s book, page 108:

“It was then I began to accept the idea of Cooper’s Columbia landing... An FAA aeronautical chart disclosed that Victor 23 crossed the Columbia about two miles upriver from the I-5 bridge that connects Vancouver and Portland. Now I knew not only how the money got into the Columbia but also where in the river it hit. “

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The airliner was flying almost straight south (about 178 degrees true to be exact) on the WFP when it overflew Tena Bar.
No, it wasn’t because there is no such thing as a Western Flight Path except in your imagination.

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If Cooper landed in the water near the I-5 bridge as a no-pull, then the airliner would have been almost directly overhead of that bridge when he jumped.  If Cooper landed in the water near the I-5 bridge under canopy, then the airliner could have been as much as 8 miles or so southwest of that bridge when he jumped if he opened immediately.  If he delayed opening, then the airliner could have been somewhere between 8 miles southwest of the bridge.
The plane approached the I-5 bridge from the northeast.

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Since the WFP passes only about three miles west of the I-5 bridge, the WFP stays in the mix.
No, it doesn’t because the WFP is a myth.

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Anyone with even a basic understanding of fluid dynamics, the general energy equation, or even high school level physics, knows that if Cooper landed in the water near the I-5 bridge and drowned, then his body and equipment would have been on the Oregon side of the Columbia after the river turns north.
Or you can actually talk to the people who track river debris at this part of the river and review their data. If you did, you’d know that what you wrote is inaccurate. Also, you are completely disregarding other variables such as ship wakes, weather, and flooding.

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This means that when Cooper passed Tena Bar, his body and equipment would probably have been on the bottom of the shipping channel and very near the Oregon edge of the river.
False. Please speak with the kind folks at the Lower Columbia Estuary Partnership. They track and map debris accumulations for this part of the river. Debris from beyond the I-5 bridge does accumulate on the Tena Bar side of the Columbia.

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Basically, the above means that there is no way on God's Green Earth that the money found at Tena Bar got there from normal river flow

Wrong. See above.

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Cooper did not land in the Columbia River, drown, and then drift downstream.
You’re probably right, but not for the reasons you listed.

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I'm sure we will have to go over this again in another month or so.
Only if you continue to insist that you are right in the face of facts.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 12:22:43 AM by Chaucer »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Book Discussion About DB Cooper
« Reply #404 on: May 05, 2021, 11:19:04 PM »
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Chaucer apparently believes that Tosaw thought Cooper landed in the Columbia River near the I-5 bridge (which I don't believe existed in 1971).

Tosaw’s book, page 108:

“It was then I began to accept the idea of Cooper’s Columbia landing... An FAA aeronautical chart disclosed that Victor 23 crossed the Columbia about two miles upriver from the I-5 bridge that connects Vancouver and Portland. Now I knew not only how the money got into the Columbia but also where in the river it hit. “

Quote
The airliner was flying almost straight south (about 178 degrees true to be exact) on the WFP when it overflew Tena Bar.
No, it wasn’t because there is no such thing as a Western Flight Path except in your imagination.

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If Cooper landed in the water near the I-5 bridge as a no-pull, then the airliner would have been almost directly overhead of that bridge when he jumped.  If Cooper landed in the water near the I-5 bridge under canopy, then the airliner could have been as much as 8 miles or so southwest of that bridge when he jumped if he opened immediately.  If he delayed opening, then the airliner could have been somewhere between 8 miles southwest of the bridge.
The plane approached the I-5 bridge from the northeast.

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Since the WFP passes only about three miles west of the I-5 bridge, the WFP stays in the mix.
No, it doesn’t because the WFP is a myth.

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Anyone with even a basic understanding of fluid dynamics, the general energy equation, or even high school level physics, knows that if Cooper landed in the water near the I-5 bridge and drowned, then his body and equipment would have been on the Oregon side of the Columbia after the river turns north.
Or you can actually talk to the people who track river debris at this part of the river and review their data. If you did, you’d know that what you wrote is inaccurate. Also, you are completely disregarding other variables such as ship wakes, weather, and flooding.

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This means that when Cooper passed Tena Bar, his body and equipment would probably have been on the bottom of the shipping channel and very near the Oregon edge of the river.
False. Please speak with the kind folks at the Lower Columbia Estuary Partnership. They track and map debris accumulations for this part of the river. Debris from beyond the I-5 bridge does accumulate on the Tena Bar side of the Columbia.

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Basically, the above means that there is no way on God's Green Earth that the money found at Tena Bar got there from normal river flow

Wrong. See above.

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Cooper did not land in the Columbia River, drown, and then drift downstream.
You’re probably right, but not for the reasons you listed.

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I'm sure we will have to go over this again in another month or so.
Only if you continue to insist that you are right in the face of facts.
[/quote]

good job... more will follow when I get time.

* Tell us more about this  Lower Columbia Estuary Partnership  and their tracking of debris as relates to Tina Bar.

Tosaw came to believe the dredging was responsible for the money being at Tina Bar. He thought the tip money Cooper offered the stews was the Ingram find money, and the bagged money tied around Cooper's waste was yet to be found - on the bottom of the Columbia with Cooper's body. Then he changed from dragging the bottom of the river to searching wing dams especially in the area where dredging had occurred. 

The area dredged with spoils placed on Tina Bar was between mile markers 96+38' to 97+17'. See attached. How does that relate to the Lower Columbia Estuary Partnership tracking debris   ?
« Last Edit: May 05, 2021, 11:52:03 PM by georger »