Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 262476 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3870 on: January 13, 2021, 10:39:41 AM »
R99, what is your take on the document Fly posted. everyone can agree the stairs were never fully extended but the document explains it that way and speaks of two different lights that came on?

Fly, you might want to consider coming back over here. this gets kind of crazy going back and forth..
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 10:41:12 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3871 on: January 13, 2021, 11:24:39 AM »
Plane takes off at 7:36. depending on which transcripts you read they are in the same ballpark. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slows down to 155 knots and applies 30 degree flaps. this according to Rat is for Cooper to be able to get the stairs down.. at 7:42 they report an aft stair light.on. at 7:45 they report no communication from him but report the aft stair light again.

8:05 they try to get a reply and finally get one stating "everything is ok" reports over the years have always been a "no"

The document you posted might be the communications shortly after takeoff. "anything we can do for you" he answers with a no, which conflicts with the 8:05 report "everything is ok" two reports of lights on the transcripts. I can't agree with the fully extended statement. you read the document and it's written as events happened after 8:10.

The transcripts state he was having trouble with the stairs. Rat spoke with him where he says "I can't get the stairs down" we seem to be missing all the communications with Cooper. the document isn't specific enough to separate the two events from shortly after takeoff to the 8:05 contact. conflicting reports and inaccurate information. who saw that coming lol. it's a head spinner..some sound backwards with timing...let me soak this in  8)
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3872 on: January 13, 2021, 03:13:47 PM »
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R99, what is your take on the document Fly posted. everyone can agree the stairs were never fully extended but the document explains it that way and speaks of two different lights that came on?

Fly, you might want to consider coming back over here. this gets kind of crazy going back and forth..

First, let me second Shutter's suggestion that FlyJack start posting on this site again.

I am not familiar with the stair lights on the Flight Engineer's panel so I will defer to FlyJack on that point.  I agree with him that the stairs were never fully extended and doubt if that actually could be under the given circumstances.

A 225 pound sled and a parajumper who probably weighed about the same did not fully extend the stairs.  Cooper apparently expected the stairs to extend a considerable distance when he operated the deployment lever and the stairs only went down slightly.  Cooper apparently did not understand the forces that a 200 MPH slipstream generate.  This would indicate a lack of aeronautical knowledge on Cooper's part.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3873 on: January 13, 2021, 03:18:13 PM »
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Plane takes off at 7:36. depending on which transcripts you read they are in the same ballpark. the plane levels off at 7,000 and slows down to 155 knots and applies 30 degree flaps. this according to Rat is for Cooper to be able to get the stairs down.. at 7:42 they report an aft stair light.on. at 7:45 they report no communication from him but report the aft stair light again.

8:05 they try to get a reply and finally get one stating "everything is ok" reports over the years have always been a "no"

The document you posted might be the communications shortly after takeoff. "anything we can do for you" he answers with a no, which conflicts with the 8:05 report "everything is ok" two reports of lights on the transcripts. I can't agree with the fully extended statement. you read the document and it's written as events happened after 8:10.

The transcripts state he was having trouble with the stairs. Rat spoke with him where he says "I can't get the stairs down" we seem to be missing all the communications with Cooper. the document isn't specific enough to separate the two events from shortly after takeoff to the 8:05 contact. conflicting reports and inaccurate information. who saw that coming lol. it's a head spinner..some sound backwards with timing...let me soak this in  8)

Cooper's communications with the cockpit crew would be over the interphone and not recorded.  Consequently, only the flight crew's statements as to what Cooper said are available.
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3874 on: January 13, 2021, 05:18:17 PM »
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Cooper apparently expected the stairs to extend a considerable distance when he operated the deployment lever and the stairs only went down slightly.  Cooper apparently did not understand the forces that a 200 MPH slipstream generate.  This would indicate a lack of aeronautical knowledge on Cooper's part.

Or perhaps he overestimated (hoped?) the force of the hydraulic system to overcome it.

--------------

So they leveled off and slowed down at 7000' so Cooper could get the stairs open. After he did, did they stay there or did they resume climbing to 10000'?


--------------

(I still get the dark 'Christmas mode' when I sign in and it is harder to read. Is that going to come off?)
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 05:25:09 PM by dudeman17 »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3875 on: January 13, 2021, 06:22:28 PM »
You should now see the default theme. I don't remember if I changed your setting manually or not. I put the setting back to default for everyone. if it was changed manually, it will override the default.

Sorry.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 06:22:47 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3876 on: January 13, 2021, 06:27:32 PM »
Rataczak has made statements of the climb being an issue and the fact of Cooper calling about the stairs..

The started the climb to 10k around 7:48 reaching altitude in around 7 minutes..
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3877 on: January 13, 2021, 07:03:25 PM »
My reference to what Cooper said on the plane surrounds no real discussion documented on what he said. we get bits and pieces of what he stated on everything. very little of conversation to the pilots.
 

Offline nickyb233

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3878 on: January 13, 2021, 08:44:35 PM »
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Cooper apparently expected the stairs to extend a considerable distance when he operated the deployment lever and the stairs only went down slightly.  Cooper apparently did not understand the forces that a 200 MPH slipstream generate.  This would indicate a lack of aeronautical knowledge on Cooper's part.

Or perhaps he overestimated (hoped?) the force of the hydraulic system to overcome it.

--------------

So they leveled off and slowed down at 7000' so Cooper could get the stairs open. After he did, did they stay there or did they resume climbing to 10000'?


--------------

(I still get the dark 'Christmas mode' when I sign in and it is harder to read. Is that going to come off?)

Well maybe that’s why he wanted to take off with the stairs fully extended because he knew it would be more of a challenge Bob the air... But why did Cooper want the stairs fully extended was it a safety concern? Once he got them open you’d think he would just want to climb down and jump... what’s the big deal about having them fully extended and locked?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3879 on: January 13, 2021, 09:07:09 PM »
I don't think the demand called for the stairs down and locked. I think a lot of mixed information is in the latest document with obvious error's of being fully extended and color difference in lights as well as the time.


I think we all realize the annuncaiter has two lights (amber & green)
Reports of the lights were on the transcripts twice.
The last report being around 8:00

We also possibly have separate responses from Cooper. the transcripts report "everything is ok" while other reports a response of "no" during the problems with the stairs Cooper was talking to the pilots. the 8:05 was only looking for a response.

It's bits and pieces like this that cause more confusion than good.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 09:07:48 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline nickyb233

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3880 on: January 13, 2021, 09:10:40 PM »
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I don't think the demand called for the stairs down and locked. I think a lot of mixed information is in the latest document with obvious error's of being fully extended and color difference in lights as well as the time.


I think we all realize the annuncaiter has two lights (amber & green)
Reports of the lights were on the transcripts twice.
The last report being around 8:00

We also possibly have separate responses from Cooper. the transcripts report "everything is ok" while other reports a response of "no" during the problems with the stairs Cooper was talking to the pilots. the 8:05 was only looking for a response.

It's bits and pieces like this that cause more confusion than good.


Yeah I hear you shut guess it par for the course here In the vortex.
 

Offline Robert99

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3881 on: January 15, 2021, 03:52:31 PM »
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I don't think the demand called for the stairs down and locked. I think a lot of mixed information is in the latest document with obvious error's of being fully extended and color difference in lights as well as the time.


I think we all realize the annuncaiter has two lights (amber & green)
Reports of the lights were on the transcripts twice.
The last report being around 8:00

We also possibly have separate responses from Cooper. the transcripts report "everything is ok" while other reports a response of "no" during the problems with the stairs Cooper was talking to the pilots. the 8:05 was only looking for a response.

It's bits and pieces like this that cause more confusion than good.

FlyJack has just posted [post #63094] on DropZone an FBI document [DB Cooper - 22862, 12-9-1971] on the Boeing tests related to the aft stairs being deployed in flight.  This document answers a lot of questions and everyone should read it.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3882 on: January 15, 2021, 05:38:55 PM »
I seen the document last week with the new files..keep in mind this was during testing or just after. improvements were made as time progressed. when you watch the stunt man with similar settings and a slight increase in speed the stairs are much lower than 12 inches after weight is released. he still could of pulled back bringing the stairs up and pushing down quickly when they mention the lights twice in several minutes. 7:42 and 7:45 ish...

we have comments surrounding two lights. reports on the transcripts twice and no reference to lights at 8:05 or 8:10/11/12. somewhere the pilots state the light flashed after Cooper jumped or where they believed he jumped. not sure even in testing if the lights flashed?

Tina's time frame seems skewed. the leveling off and slowing down was early in the flight. then she says 5 minutes later he called again. this could be the two reports of lights. they were level at 10k before 8:00

The second document skews in time as well. the quotations of 20 minutes is correct but she goes back to early in the flight when he spoke with the pilots having trouble with the stairs. if a flash occurred it would of been in the early part of the flight at 7,000 IMO. if this makes sense..
« Last Edit: January 15, 2021, 06:00:02 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline georger

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3883 on: Today at 04:14:20 AM »
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I seen the document last week with the new files..keep in mind this was during testing or just after. improvements were made as time progressed. when you watch the stunt man with similar settings and a slight increase in speed the stairs are much lower than 12 inches after weight is released. he still could of pulled back bringing the stairs up and pushing down quickly when they mention the lights twice in several minutes. 7:42 and 7:45 ish...

we have comments surrounding two lights. reports on the transcripts twice and no reference to lights at 8:05 or 8:10/11/12. somewhere the pilots state the light flashed after Cooper jumped or where they believed he jumped. not sure even in testing if the lights flashed?

Tina's time frame seems skewed. the leveling off and slowing down was early in the flight. then she says 5 minutes later he called again. this could be the two reports of lights. they were level at 10k before 8:00

The second document skews in time as well. the quotations of 20 minutes is correct but she goes back to early in the flight when he spoke with the pilots having trouble with the stairs. if a flash occurred it would of been in the early part of the flight at 7,000 IMO. if this makes sense..

Im not sure what this photo you posted is or how it applies to the problem. The actual test drop was filmed and we have frames from that film - have had those for years. See attached. Calculations previously posted at DZ years ago showed that in this frame attached, the object has dropped ~13.4ft and time since separation based on an air speed of 160mph is about 0.057 seconds .... and the stairs have already bounced back forcefully and are nearly closed. These results were taken as a positive match with the 'dump' experienced during he hijacking regardless of lights going on/off or whatever. The test was performed to try and duplicate the 'bump', not in order to test lights going on or off!  ;)
       
« Last Edit: Today at 04:20:34 AM by georger »