Author Topic: Flight Path And Related Issues  (Read 283416 times)

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3855 on: December 17, 2020, 05:15:22 PM »
If Cooper had experience some of the fear would be less than never jumping at all. it would be loud with the engines and the wind, then you have the darkness along with the stairs moving. I would side step down vs backwards. cliff jumpers would probably do it blind folded. nothing bothers those guys.

Still waiting on McNally, he use to respond pretty quick. he has me attached to his emails he responds to. Dec. 4th he spoke at a school in Missouri, so he must be pretty busy lately. I get about 4 emails a month from him doing something.

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Friday 1 p.m.  I really enjoyed the 45 minutes of answering very good questions. Will keep in touch and always available to answer questions.

Martin McNally
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 08:36:11 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline dudeman17

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3856 on: December 17, 2020, 06:38:04 PM »
Interesting stuff. To clarify, the idea of them dropping by gravity wouldn't mean that they 'free fell' down unchecked, but that they would lower slowly, dampened by the hydraulic pressure. But apparently that's not the case, they are powered by the pumps both ways. It's interesting that the pumps are not strong enough to overcome the in-flight wind resistance, I wonder if that's by design. Also interesting is that it's said that they are either all the way up, all the way down, or in transit, that there is no stopping them part way. But in that shot of the actor (the actor? that's Robert Duvall!) pulling them down, notice that they are open but not moving before he grabs them and puts his weight on them. Also, it is said that in flight, the pumps would be applying constant pressure downward against the wind resistance. The more pressure, the more stable, less 'bouncy' they would be, and would also fight against them recoiling all the way shut to create the pressure bump. It's also said that in the down, locked position they also function to support the tail and prevent it from tipping as the passengers loaded. I'm surprised that would be necessary on a plane that size.

On fear: Yeah, the more experienced he is, the easier his descent on the stairs would be. It's weird, there's a thing in skydiving called 'floating', and that is where if a number of people are going to jump together at once, then some of them climb out and hang outside the door, with one foot inside and one hand gripping the doorframe, or sometimes there's a handle out there. With a rig on, you could climb in and out of that position all day long. But the thought of doing that just once without your rig on? Ain't gonna happen. Same with base jumping - without your rig, getting near the edge of the cliff or whatever is sketchy. With your rig, you walk right up to it.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3857 on: December 17, 2020, 06:46:54 PM »
The plane is tail heavy since it has 3 engines on the back. the planes have tipped with just the cleaning crew inside.

System B handles other critical functions on the aircraft. inside spoilers, main cargo door, upper rudder and the stairs. it's designed to function on the ground. it also ties into system A..

Movie clip:
I'm guessing they either put the control in the center or the plane is shutdown and they released it after the pressure is gone. they should still have fluid in them to hold in place or possibly pumped a small amount into the actuators? if the system was active they would go up or down, nothing in between?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 07:11:38 PM by Shutter »
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3858 on: December 17, 2020, 07:00:01 PM »
Something failed in the hydraulics. the stairs were down. possibly not in the locked position. they might of put the stairs down and the actuators didn't lock in place as I mentioned previously?

..



« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 07:05:40 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3859 on: December 17, 2020, 10:52:04 PM »
For me it’s not a question of fear. Even if Cooper was an experienced skydiver, he’s going to want a controlled jump rather than lose his balance and tumble down the stairs.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3860 on: December 17, 2020, 11:52:58 PM »
The link below lets you walk around (360) the inside of a 727. they don't include the stairs in the tour  :(
It also has the ability to measure inside spaces, objects..tools in lower left.


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« Last Edit: December 17, 2020, 11:53:19 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3861 on: December 19, 2020, 01:59:26 PM »
Quote
I found that NORJAK era 727's had compass heading on the Flight Data Recorder.

Northwest 727's used the Fairchild Model 5424..  I can't confirm NORJAK had that model.

This has been known for some time now. the 727 had different one's installed. the main question over the years was if the recorder had timing on it, some recorders didn't. that was resolved with a 302 where they discuss looking at the data minute by minute. some recorders made a notch at the bottom of the foil for timing..the recorder gave magnetic headings..

It was useful in the totality of tools used to try and pinpoint a LZ. a microscope type of machine was used to read the foll if not mistaken..
« Last Edit: December 19, 2020, 02:00:19 PM by Shutter »
 
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Offline Dfs346

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3862 on: January 12, 2021, 04:09:52 AM »
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Hominid & Georger Telephone interviews with Andy Anderson: Tuesday Jan 28, 2014 –
[Bill Rataczak has been quoted as saying something like: at some point there was a sudden pressure pulse felt in the ears, that the enunciator light went out momentarily, there was a "bump" of the airframe ...]

Is there a document in the public domain in which this reference to the annunciator light appears?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3863 on: January 12, 2021, 10:15:49 AM »
Sounds like a Georger question. this forum started in late February of 2014. not sure if it was here or the DZ. most likely mentioned on the DZ. I'll look on the first pages of this thread...the light remained on due to the unlocked position. Tina makes a reference of a red light blinking off and back on if not mistaken. more than likely was misken on the color since the control panle for the stairs has the red light. green and amber are on the engineers panel.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2021, 10:53:35 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Chaucer

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3864 on: January 12, 2021, 06:47:38 PM »
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Hominid & Georger Telephone interviews with Andy Anderson: Tuesday Jan 28, 2014 –
[Bill Rataczak has been quoted as saying something like: at some point there was a sudden pressure pulse felt in the ears, that the enunciator light went out momentarily, there was a "bump" of the airframe ...]

Is there a document in the public domain in which this reference to the annunciator light appears?
I searched the FBI Vault for any information on the annunciator light. There's nothing there.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3865 on: January 12, 2021, 07:00:38 PM »
It appears to be an interview minus the FBI.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3866 on: January 12, 2021, 09:27:30 PM »
The transcripts radio about the stairs and the lite..

7:42... Trying to get door down. stew is with us. he can not get the stairs down...we now have an aft stair light on.

7:45...No comms with him but have an aft stair lite.
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3867 on: January 13, 2021, 12:17:46 AM »
Fly, if you read the document you posted it matches the transcripts. two transmissions state the light came on in the cockpit. that's around 7:45 which is 20 minutes from when they heard from Cooper. this occurred "after takeoff from Seattle"
« Last Edit: January 13, 2021, 12:18:11 AM by Shutter »
 

Offline Dfs346

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3868 on: January 13, 2021, 06:06:28 AM »

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Hominid & Georger Telephone interviews with Andy Anderson: Tuesday Jan 28, 2014 –
[Bill Rataczak has been quoted as saying something like: at some point there was a sudden pressure pulse felt in the ears, that the enunciator light went out momentarily,

Many thanks for the replies. My question had specific reference to a statement by Bill Rataczak, which is not on the FBI Vault nor appears in any Google search. Does anyone know when and where this statement appeared?
 

Offline Shutter

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Re: Flight Path And Related Issues
« Reply #3869 on: January 13, 2021, 10:16:39 AM »
I didn't read the document correctly, I see where it states a second light. that would only come on when fully extended which the document states but didn't happen. it's a troubling statement. the stairs would be damaged when they landed if they were locked. I'll check but I'm pretty sure the green light comes on once it's down and locked and not on while it's lowering.

The pilots didn't note it on the transcripts while speaking about Cooper's reply. I don't know if they could of dropped close enough to be near or close to  fully extended to trigger the light if Cooper started down them at 8:05. 

try not to mix up reported vs stated. Tina didn't use the radio. this would be a statement after the fact. the only reports in the transcripts are around 7:42 and 7:45. I don't recall seeing anything in reference to 8:00. the plane was around Toledo at the 8:00 point. the transcript reports about the lights would be in the area of McChord. where did you read 8:00?